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View Full Version : Why I think we have cap room (and how much)


G27RR
03-14-2012, 02:16 PM
It’s the day after free agency has begun, and there seems to be a lot of panic when it comes to fans of the Texans. Rumors of as little as $600,000 of remaining cap room, along with the surprising cut of RT Eric Winston and the UFA status of C Chris Myers and G Mike Brisiel, are driving most of the panic. I’ll try to address some of those concerns by explaining why I am not panicking.

Salary Cap Room

The salary cap for 2012 is currently $122.2M ($120.6M base + $1.6M from the Cowboys/Redskins penalty). If we had not used all of our cap in 2011, we could have carried the unused portion over to this year. There are teams out there that did that, which is one reason why you’ve seen some teams with huge amounts of cap space left over. Of course, those teams weren’t contenders in the playoffs last year.

People have been out there saying the Texans only have $600,000 of cap room left. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, unless they are assuming we will sign certain guys back and are already counting the rookie minimum salaries for draft choices against the cap. If we only had $600,000 left, we would have a team of just 45 guys and couldn’t sign our rookies. Do you really think the Texans’ management planned that poorly? I don’t.

As of last night (March 13th), the Texans likely have somewhere around $15M - $24.5M of cap room remaining. This accounts for Andre’s restructuring, Arian’s new contract, and the cuts to Winston, Leinart and Vickers. It also includes having eight guys on the practice squad at a generous $390,000 each. It does not account for dead money left against the 2012 cap. The reason dead money is not in there is that I could not locate reliable sources for those amounts. The remainder is what we can use to sign our UFAs and our draft picks.

How did I come up with that figure? I have been through several sources and cross-referenced most of these contracts against each other for accuracy. I have also been through the entire CBA and verified, to the greatest extent possible, that these calculations include all cap hits and have the correct amortization for cap purposes. That means that the amounts listed should include applicable base salary (A.K.A. paragraph 5) plus signing bonuses, roster bonuses, incentives, etc. For example, I’ve already started looking at 2013, and in that year I had to include a $4M escalator for Cushing.

We appear to have 45 players on our active roster, so naturally I’ve included cap hits for all 45 of them. I’ve also set aside cap room for the practice squad because they are considered part of the “team salary” under the CBA. I assigned a worst-case hit of $390,000/year for each of them, which would allow us to sign any or all of them to a minimum contract for an active roster spot if need be during the year (due to injury or waivers from our active roster).

When you add all that up, you get $97,624,127 against the salary cap. That leaves $24,575,873 of cap room. Unfortunately, we likely have some dead money out there that we owe against the cap for players no longer with the team. Since I could find no accurate estimates, we are left with the $15M - $24.5M of cap room that I mentioned earlier. So, even with an assumption of $10M of dead money, we’re a far cry from just $600,000.

****updated numbers, Thursday morning 3-15****

Updated numbers. It now looks more like $22M, not $25M, less dead money = maybe $14M to sign UFAs and the rookie contracts.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/texanscapsmall03-14-2012-1.jpg

G27RR
03-14-2012, 02:18 PM
I forgot to add, the final column shows the cap hit from remaining unamortized bonus. If cap hit this year is not significantly more than the hit from cutting a player, there's no point cutting that player. This does not account for any remaining guaranty that could be potential dead money.

badboy
03-14-2012, 02:25 PM
Thanks for repeating what I and some others have been posting for weeks. In a less detailed format, I've posted Mario's $20m 2011 cap + $4.5 savings from Winston +$5.2m Andre's+ Leinert's base $2.5m = $32million. We have spent $8m on Foster and crakerjacks on Weeks.
32-8= $24million available to spend once Mario signs elsewhere. We will see mucho movement when Mario decides.

Good post.

badboy
03-14-2012, 02:28 PM
Dead money (not vouching for source):
RB Steve Slaton (Dolphins) – 555,000 DT Amobi Okoye (Bears) – 3,615,000 QB Dan Orlovsky (Colts) – 2,250,000 WR David Anderson (Redskins) – 1,440,
http://torotimes.com/2012/02/12/houston-texans-2012-cap-room-situation-and-possible-offseason-approaches-part-1/

G27RR
03-14-2012, 02:31 PM
Thanks for repeating what I and some others have been posting for weeks. In a less detailed format, I've posted Mario's $20m 2011 cap + $4.5 savings from Winston +$5.2m Andre's+ Leinert's base $2.5m = $32million. We have spent $8m on Foster and crakerjacks on Weeks.
32-8= $24million available to spend once Mario signs elsewhere. We will see mucho movement when Mario decides.

Good post.

Yep, saw your post yesterday. It's nice to see similar numbers calculating either backwards or forwards. Hopefully we can stop the insanity a little bit.

ainsworth
03-14-2012, 02:32 PM
About 8 million in dead money. **** you Dan O!

G27RR
03-14-2012, 02:38 PM
Dead money (not vouching for source):
RB Steve Slaton (Dolphins) – 555,000 DT Amobi Okoye (Bears) – 3,615,000 QB Dan Orlovsky (Colts) – 2,250,000 WR David Anderson (Redskins) – 1,440,
http://torotimes.com/2012/02/12/houston-texans-2012-cap-room-situation-and-possible-offseason-approaches-part-1/

Thanks, that would leave $16.7M using my figures.

Dutchrudder
03-14-2012, 02:42 PM
So you're telling me that Daniel Manning was paid 8 million dollars in 2011? I'm not buying that, cause his total contract value was 20 million.

Also, you don't have Schaub's signing bonus added to his cap hit. Something like 1.2 million or so. His cap hit for 2012 should be just over 9 million.

Last year AJ, Antonio and Demeco restructured their contracts to help us get the space to sign Manning and JJo. We still have no idea how those restructures were set up. Their cap numbers for 2012 could be much higher than we think.

NastyNate
03-14-2012, 02:46 PM
So you're telling me that Daniel Manning was paid 8 million dollars in 2011? I'm not buying that, cause his total contract value was 20 million.

Also, you don't have Schaub's signing bonus added to his cap hit. Something like 1.2 million or so. His cap hit for 2012 should be just over 9 million.

Last year AJ, Antonio and Demeco restructured their contracts to help us get the space to sign Manning and JJo. We still have no idea how those restructures were set up. Their cap numbers for 2012 could be much higher than we think.

This. Plus why are you figuring in the Practice squad? That's a non-point.

Hardcore Texan
03-14-2012, 02:48 PM
Championship!

G27RR
03-14-2012, 02:50 PM
This. Plus why are you figuring in the Practice squad? That's a non-point.

Have you read the new CBA? The verbiage indicates it counts against the team salary.

Honoring Earl 34
03-14-2012, 02:54 PM
The new CBA makes the have nots spend their money while the haves give away their players .

G27RR
03-14-2012, 02:56 PM
Old info

Blake
03-14-2012, 02:58 PM
Ive never understood the "were up against the cap!" argument. If we are so damn close to the cap why even bother telling Mario and the world that we want him back? It just doesnt make any sense. We have cap space. We just dont want to be dumb with it.

noxiousdog
03-14-2012, 03:04 PM
A similiar number can be found on Spotrac (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/cap-hit/)

majestrate
03-14-2012, 03:05 PM
Ive never understood the "were up against the cap!" argument. If we are so damn close to the cap why even bother telling Mario and the world that we want him back? It just doesnt make any sense. We have cap space. We're just saving it for Peyton.
FIFY

maj,
only joking

sorry, had to do it

NastyNate
03-14-2012, 03:08 PM
Have you read the new CBA? The verbiage indicates it counts against the team salary.

You REALLY think we're going to sign someone to the practice squad to the extent that they are of the top 51 paid players? The practice squad doesn't count against the cap.

Nate

Dutchrudder
03-14-2012, 03:12 PM
My data indcates Schaub's bonus is 500k this year and is included. Andre's figure is as of Monday when he restructured this year.

Per Rotoworld on Schaub:

3/21/2007: Signed a six-year, $48 million contract. The deal included a $7 million signing bonus and a $10 million option in the fourth season. 2012: $7.15 million (+ $500,000 roster bonus due 3/17), 2013: Free Agent

7/6 = 1.166

His cap hit should be about 8.816 million by those numbers.

Daniel Manning:
7/29/2011: Signed a four-year, $20 million contract. The deal contains $9 million guaranteed. 2012: $3.5 million, 2013: $4 million, 2014: $4.5 million, 2015: Free Agent

20 mill total, but only 12 million in salary over the last 3 years? Was he paid 8 million last year, or are the incentives we don't know about? Maybe he met those incentives and they are pushing up his cap hit this year. We simply don't know.


Here's another one that doesn't add up for me:
Owen Daniels:
3/3/2011: Signed a four-year, $22 million contract. The deal contains $6 million guaranteed. 2012: $3.5 million, 2013: $4 million, 2014: $4.5 million, 2015: Free Agent

(Oddly enough, it's the same salary structure as Manning's deal)

That's 12 million paid out in salary over the last three years. It says nothing of incentives, and leaves 10 million to be paid out in that first year. Obviously OD didn't get 10 million in 2011, but he may have earned some incentives we don't know about which push his 2012 cap hit up. There has to be more hidden costs somewhere, or else they wouldn't advertise it as a contract of $22 million.


http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/hou/texans

badboy
03-14-2012, 03:19 PM
So you're telling me that Daniel Manning was paid 8 million dollars in 2011? I'm not buying that, cause his total contract value was 20 million.

Also, you don't have Schaub's signing bonus added to his cap hit. Something like 1.2 million or so. His cap hit for 2012 should be just over 9 million.

Last year AJ, Antonio and Demeco restructured their contracts to help us get the space to sign Manning and JJo. We still have no idea how those restructures were set up. Their cap numbers for 2012 could be much higher than we think.

WHere do you see $8m for Manning? He lists $3.5m cap. Also, my understanding is Schaub's 2012 cap is apprx $7m not 9. i think you may be adding it twice.

ChampionTexan
03-14-2012, 03:33 PM
Per Rotoworld on Schaub:



7/6 = 1.166

His cap hit should be about 8.816 million by those numbers.



Something that's interesting and potentially significant, that I haven't heard discussed at all (by anyone), is that Article 13 Section 6 of the current CBA specifically limits the number of years a signing bonus can be prorated over to 5.

Here's the exact language:

Proration. The total amount of any signing bonus shall be prorated over the term of the Player Contract (on a straight-line basis, unless subject to acceleration or some other treatment as provided in this Agreement), with a maximum proration of five years, in determining Team Salary and Salary, except that:

(1) Any contract year in which the player has the right to terminate based upon events within his sole control shall not be counted as a contract year for purposes of proration. In the event the NFL and the NFLPA cannot agree upon whether an op-tion is within the player’s sole control, such issue shall be resolved by the Impartial Arbitrator.

The previous CBA had essentially the same language, but limited it to 6. If I understand this correctly, it means Matt's initial signing bonus was likely fully amortized at the end of last season.

G27RR
03-14-2012, 03:34 PM
My data indcates Schaub's bonus is 500k this year and is included. Andre's figure is as of Monday when he restructured this year.

Schaub only has a 500k roster bonus I thought, I will double check.

Dutchrudder
03-14-2012, 03:40 PM
WHere do you see $8m for Manning? He lists $3.5m cap. Also, my understanding is Schaub's 2012 cap is apprx $7m not 9. i think you may be adding it twice.

If we know his contract is 4 years 20 million total, and have 12 million of that allotted to years 2-4, then we can infer that the other 8 million must be paid out somewhere. Either that 8 was paid in 2011 as salary/roster bonus/whatever, or he had a lower base salary like 4 million, and the other 4 million is incentive based. Whatever the case is, there is a lot of money missing in that equation and leads to more uncertainty when trying to GM using Rotoworld info.


Something that's interesting and potentially significant, that I haven't heard discussed at all (by anyone), is that Article 13 Section 6 of the current CBA specifically limits the number of years a signing bonus can be prorated over to 5.

Here's the exact language:



The previous CBA had essentially the same language, but limited it to 6. If I understand this correctly, it means Matt's initial signing bonus was likely fully amortized at the end of last season.

Good to know, but Schaub's deal was signed under the old CBA in 2007. I kinda doubt they would change existing contracts to meet the new rules and place unexpected cap burdens on the teams.

ChampionTexan
03-14-2012, 03:43 PM
Good to know, but Schaub's deal was signed under the old CBA in 2007. I kinda doubt they would change existing contracts to meet the new rules and place unexpected cap burdens on the teams.

Did you read the last sentence of my post?

HoustonFrog
03-14-2012, 03:46 PM
So why would people be pulling out numbers like 3.6 to 6.3 only and be saying that the Texans were up against it? There has to be dead money out there.

Just reporting, not making a statement

https://twitter.com/#!/LanceZierlein


LanceZierlein Lance Zierlein
According to John Clayton, Texans and Chargers didn't have enough cap space to carryover so that answers that question.

LanceZierlein Lance Zierlein
Texans have 6.3 million in cap space, but remember that it also includes what they have to spend in rookie pool.

LanceZierlein Lance Zierlein
I need someone from Texans to explain why they didn't carry over cap space from last year. It sure would help to have every little bit

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7570116/nfl-plenty-cap-room-improve

Article from February

The Houston Texans and San Diego Chargers didn't have enough remaining room to push money over into 2012, so Houston has $3.3 million of cap space and San Diego has $9.2 million.

ChampionTexan
03-14-2012, 03:48 PM
You REALLY think we're going to sign someone to the practice squad to the extent that they are of the top 51 paid players? The practice squad doesn't count against the cap.

Nate

Yes it does. From the current CBA:

ARTICLE 13 SALARY CAP ACCOUNTING RULES

Section 5. Computation of Team Salary: During any League Year in which the Salary Cap is in effect, all of the following amounts shall be included every day in determining a Team’s Team Salary

(c) Practice Squad Contracts. Any Practice Squad contract Salaries shall be included in Team Salary...

Dutchrudder
03-14-2012, 03:50 PM
Did you read the last sentence of my post?

Yes...

If Matt's deal was 6 years long, his signing bonus would have been paid out in equal installments over those 6 years using the old CBA. The new CBA limits that to 5 years, which came into effect with 2 years left on Matt's deal. Unless the new CBA changes existing contracts like Matt's, I don't see how that would effect his payments. Going forward, every deal made will be effected by that rule.

ChampionTexan
03-14-2012, 03:53 PM
my bad - I was getting the signing bonus amount and the term of the contract flip-flopped.

Dutchrudder
03-14-2012, 03:55 PM
Because 2011 was the sixth year of his seven year contract - meaning his signing bonus had to be fully prorated at the end of it. Hence - nothing left to amortize for 2012.

Oh, that's the miscommunication. Schaub's deal was 6 years long with a 7 mill signing bonus.

3/21/2007: Signed a six-year, $48 million contract. The deal included a $7 million signing bonus and a $10 million option in the fourth season. 2012: $7.15 million (+ $500,000 roster bonus due 3/17), 2013: Free Agent

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/hou/texans

It's all good.

ChampionTexan
03-14-2012, 03:56 PM
Oh, that's the miscommunication. Schaub's deal was 6 years long with a 7 mill signing bonus.



http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/hou/texans

It's all good.

Yeha - realized it and edited my post.

thunderkyss
03-14-2012, 04:05 PM
Thanks for repeating what I and some others have been posting for weeks. In a less detailed format, I've posted Mario's $20m 2011 cap + $4.5 savings from Winston +$5.2m Andre's+ Leinert's base $2.5m = $32million. We have spent $8m on Foster and crakerjacks on Weeks.
32-8= $24million available to spend once Mario signs elsewhere. We will see mucho movement when Mario decides.

Good post.

badboy, I've taken your posts into consideration when trying to decipher our situation. I've mentioned your calculations, & all others similar, as plausible & as far as I could tell, most accurate.

However, none of the things that happened in the last 27 hours make sense if your calculations are correct (same for G27RR) as there would be no reason to cut Winston, Leinart, Vickers, (possibly Jj), or restructure Andre's contract at this time, simply to save just $15M of cap space if we were already $15M or so under.

TexCanada
03-14-2012, 04:09 PM
badboy, I've taken your posts into consideration when trying to decipher our situation. I've mentioned your calculations, & all others similar, as plausible & as far as I could tell, most accurate.

However, none of the things that happened in the last 27 hours make sense if your calculations are correct (same for G27RR) as there would be no reason to cut Winston, Leinart, Vickers, (possibly Jj), or restructure Andre's contract at this time, simply to save just $15M of cap space if we were already $15M or so under.

Unless they are trying to keep Mario, Myers and Brisiel. They may have put 15 aside for Mario and are trying to free up more to offer to Myers while we wait for Mario to decide.

badboy
03-14-2012, 04:09 PM
If we know his contract is 4 years 20 million total, and have 12 million of that allotted to years 2-4, then we can infer that the other 8 million must be paid out somewhere. Either that 8 was paid in 2011 as salary/roster bonus/whatever, or he had a lower base salary like 4 million, and the other 4 million is incentive based. Whatever the case is, there is a lot of money missing in that equation and leads to more uncertainty when trying to GM using Rotoworld info.




Good to know, but Schaub's deal was signed under the old CBA in 2007. I kinda doubt they would change existing contracts to meet the new rules and place unexpected cap burdens on the teams.My understanding was his 2012 was the $7m + .5 for roster bonus. The $10 million he got as a one time payment and was not prorated.

Dutchrudder
03-14-2012, 04:14 PM
My understanding was his 2012 was the $7m + .5 for roster bonus. The $10 million he got as a one time payment and was not prorated.

In regard to Schaub:

7.15 mill base
500k roster bonus
1.166 remaining in salary bonus amortized over the life of the contract.

That 10 million 2010 bonus doesn't figure into the equation. It was a one time roster bonus that was paid in full that year.

thunderkyss
03-14-2012, 04:19 PM
Unless they are trying to keep Mario, Myers and Brisiel. They may have put 15 aside for Mario and are trying to free up more to offer to Myers while we wait for Mario to decide.

I'm still not seeing it. With $15M to $20M & we're only counting our top 51 players....

Even signing Mario to a $15M/yr deal, most likely his cap number would be $10M-$12M......

Even with a $15M cap hit, we could cut those players when Mario/Myers signed their deals.

We would also have time to restructure contracts (which I thought we would have heard more about three weeks ago).

badboy
03-14-2012, 04:23 PM
badboy, I've taken your posts into consideration when trying to decipher our situation. I've mentioned your calculations, & all others similar, as plausible & as far as I could tell, most accurate.

However, none of the things that happened in the last 27 hours make sense if your calculations are correct (same for G27RR) as there would be no reason to cut Winston, Leinart, Vickers, (possibly Jj), or restructure Andre's contract at this time, simply to save just $15M of cap space if we were already $15M or so under.I think Mario is saying you paid me $20m last year and you want to sign me for what? As has been reported on all radio and TV, Myers is being tempted with more than Texans expected elsewhere. I believe Texans thought Myers would say "Hey I made probowl as a center in this O. so I will get a healthy increase and retire a Texan." Instead, he realized "Holy smoke, I can get THAT much elsewhere!" Smith knows he has to have a center for ZBS that can call assignments for the Oline. He messed up by not having someone trained to do that. Wade Smith when signed said he preferred OG but could play center. Caldwell was drafted & many said he'd beat Myers out first year. Briesel was our backup center, but uh oh he may be gone also.

I think TexCanada has it about right. SMith has set aside $15m + for Mario and about $5 to $6m for Myers with left over for Briesel. If true and I see nothing to indicate it is not, this exactly fits the last 27 hours. I think Texans, especially McNair want Mario to retire in Houston and is desperately doing all it can to accomplish that goal. I think Myers will be back and other reporters are now saying that today.

The $15m you mention prior to AJ and Winston and Leinert may not be enough for Mario let alone the other two.

badboy
03-14-2012, 04:27 PM
I'm still not seeing it. With $15M to $20M & we're only counting our top 51 players....

Even signing Mario to a $15M/yr deal, most likely his cap number would be $10M-$12M......

Even with a $15M cap hit, we could cut those players when Mario/Myers signed their deals. We would also have time to restructure contracts (which I thought we would have heard more about three weeks ago).I think it was to show the players that Texans are negotiating seriously saying "see here's the money. Come on back." This would be important if they are asking Myers and Briesel not to sign elsewhere before giving Texans a chance.

G27RR
03-14-2012, 04:27 PM
My understanding was his 2012 was the $7m + .5 for roster bonus. The $10 million he got as a one time payment and was not prorated.

This, but I'll have to check when I get a chance. Worst case, you take another $1.16M off my total.

badboy
03-14-2012, 04:33 PM
This, but I'll have to check when I get a chance. Worst case, you take another $1.16M off my total.and that is miniscule.

The Medic01
03-14-2012, 04:46 PM
Your sure this is right because if it is that would be amazing. I was getting really worried with talks of 5m and 615,000 dollars under.

Dutchrudder
03-14-2012, 04:48 PM
This, but I'll have to check when I get a chance. Worst case, you take another $1.16M off my total.

This? I quoted you Rotoworld with the excerpt about Schaub's deal. It's plain as day that he got a signing bonus, and it's likely that it was prorated over the entire 6 years of his deal. Did you not get your numbers from Rotoworld's contract database? Because it's pretty obvious that your numbers match up exactly with theirs.

and that is miniscule.

Yeah if you consider 8% of your 15 million in capspace projection insignificant. But that's not all, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, there is 18 million of unaccounted money between Manning and OD's contracts. You nor the OP can tell me exactly how much of that was paid in 2011, nor how much of it will be paid in the future, nor how that money is structured. We simply don't know. I'm willing to bet those two didn't earn 18 million together last year.

Here's another mistake on Rotoworld's numbers:

Brice McCain 6/8/2009: Signed a four-year, $1.852 million contract. The deal included a $101,750 signing bonus. 2012: $1.308 million, 2013: Free Agent

4 years, 1.852 million. Now we know 101k went to signing bonus, and we know that league minimum is ~400k since he was drafted, then how does he earn 70% of his total contract value in year 4 of it? Was he really paid only 550k over the last 3 years? That can't possibly be true, but it just goes to show that none of these numbers are perfect, and we can't make up the Texans' cap by aggregating all this info.

Honoring Earl 34
03-14-2012, 04:53 PM
This? I quoted you Rotoworld with the excerpt about Schaub's deal. It's plain as day that he got a signing bonus, and it's likely that it was prorated over the entire 6 years of his deal. Did you not get your numbers from Rotoworld's contract database? Because it's pretty obvious that your numbers match up exactly with theirs.



Yeah if you consider 8% of your 15 million in capspace projection insignificant. But that's not all, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, there is 18 million of unaccounted money between Manning and OD's contracts. You nor the OP can tell me exactly how much of that was paid in 2011, nor how much of it will be paid in the future, nor how that money is structured. We simply don't know. I'm willing to bet those two didn't earn 18 million together last year.

Here's another mistake on Rotoworld's numbers:



4 years, 1.852 million. Now we know 101k went to signing bonus, and we know that league minimum is ~400k since he was drafted, then how does he earn 70% of his total contract value in year 4 of it? Was he really paid only 550k over the last 3 years? That can't possibly be true, but it just goes to show that none of these numbers are perfect, and we can't make up the Texans' cap by aggregating all this info.

Something doesn't add up because the Cowboys are spending away and they had money taken away .

ChampionTexan
03-14-2012, 04:58 PM
Here's another mistake on Rotoworld's numbers:



4 years, 1.852 million. Now we know 101k went to signing bonus, and we know that league minimum is ~400k since he was drafted, then how does he earn 70% of his total contract value in year 4 of it? Was he really paid only 550k over the last 3 years? That can't possibly be true, but it just goes to show that none of these numbers are perfect, and we can't make up the Texans' cap by aggregating all this info.

I think this is your answer:

It's that time of the year again where we look at which players have triggered increases to their 2012 base salaries. These increases can be triggered by reaching certain performance levels or playing-time percentages, or in the case of at least one former Top 10 pick, by a team deciding not to pick up an option bonus.

This ties into Rotoworld's 2012 base salary for McCain.

LINK (http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012/02/2012-nfl-base-salary-increases.html)

G27RR
03-14-2012, 06:19 PM
Did you not get your numbers from Rotoworld's contract database? Because it's pretty obvious that your numbers match up exactly with theirs.

No, I didn't use Rotoworld.

The Medic01
03-14-2012, 07:07 PM
Does this factor in 6m in rookie contracts.

G27RR
03-14-2012, 07:32 PM
Does this factor in 6m in rookie contracts.

No, but I did mention that in the OP.

GP
03-14-2012, 07:58 PM
We live in the Information Age...and yet not even the professional analysts know the cap standings.

Guys on message boards have to do the heavy lifting.

I mean, I know we're dealing with each player's salary...so we can't possibly know every dollar and cent for every player. But shouldn't there be a way to get relatively near the amounts?

This is so maddening.

mussop
03-15-2012, 12:14 AM
Ok smart guys tell me this, how many players are currently under contract? How much is our rookie pool going to be? How are we going to fill out our roster with quality players with the numbers you are coming up with and still have the money to extend next years important FA's now? Quit throwing a bunch of numbers around that just make everyones :headhurts: and answer these apparent easy questions.

Corrosion
03-15-2012, 03:05 AM
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/1/13/128763292087055125.jpg


http://rlv.zcache.com/spatz_lets_play_some_football_postage-p172411384384650479exkfm_400.jpg



:chickendance:

G27RR
03-15-2012, 07:39 AM
Double post, sorry.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 07:46 AM
Updated numbers, also added to the OP. It now looks more like $22M, not $25M, less dead money = maybe $14M to sign UFAs and the rookie contracts. Changed Schaub's signing bonus, Manning's and McCain's numbers and a few other minor tweaks.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/texanscapsmall03-14-2012-1.jpg

TheMatrix31
03-15-2012, 07:46 AM
The fact that all of this is so insanely complicated represents a major issue.

This crap needs to be streamlined.

HoustonFrog
03-15-2012, 07:49 AM
I asked LZ straight out on Twitter if he had a hard number that he knew was correct for the Texans..from sources or whatever and his response was

Lance Zierlein ‏@Milldog13 it was 6.3 million yesterday morning

G27RR
03-15-2012, 08:11 AM
I asked LZ straight out on Twitter if he had a hard number that he knew was correct for the Texans..from sources or whatever and his response was

Just getting a number from a source doesn't mean the Texans gave him an accurate one - they could have their own agenda with releasing a certain figure. Also, they could be giving a number with certain assumptions in it that they don't care to share with Lance. They could have already deducted rookie draft money, which wouldn't be far off from my estimation if you do that with my numbers.

Front offices, players and agents use the media for their own purposes all the time.

All that said, it could be accurate. Mine could be close. The only people who know for sure are the Texans and the league office. (and the NFLPA should be able to know since they get copies of all contracts within a day or two as part of the CBA)

The Medic01
03-15-2012, 08:22 AM
So the dead money could be wrong right.

GP
03-15-2012, 08:26 AM
The fact that all of this is so insanely complicated represents a major issue.

This crap needs to be streamlined.

I agree.

But the apparently built-in, purposeful confusion seems to be a shield that teams use so that other teams cannot figure out if another team has a lot of room or no room.

Once you know a team has x-amount of dollars, you can pick off their UFAs for less money if you know they're up against the cap.

I don't see the cap numbers becoming common knowledge anytime soon. It's info that can be used against them.

aussie_texan
03-15-2012, 08:42 AM
I agree.

But the apparently built-in, purposeful confusion seems to be a shield that teams use so that other teams cannot figure out if another team has a lot of room or no room.

Once you know a team has x-amount of dollars, you can pick off their UFAs for less money if you know they're up against the cap.

I don't see the cap numbers becoming common knowledge anytime soon. It's info that can be used against them.

not necessarily.
If there is a market for that player, the price will still be pushed up.
The player will go to the team whom values him the most.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 09:03 AM
So the dead money could be wrong right.

Yes, that's why there's a question mark. It's based on an estimate somone linked to earlier in this thread. It seems ballpark though, I had figured between $7M-$10M but couldn't pin it down.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 09:08 AM
not necessarily.
If there is a market for that player, the price will still be pushed up.
The player will go to the team whom values him the most.

Right, but it would still give teams some advantage as GP said. For instance, if you wait to go after someone until later in FA, and you know a certain team can offer $2M to one off their guys and they have the right to match your offer through a tender situation, you know you only need to offer $2.1M to prevent their ability to match. It can save you some cash. That's a simplistic example but you get the idea.

GP
03-15-2012, 11:14 AM
Right, but it would still give teams some advantage as GP said. For instance, if you wait to go after someone until later in FA, and you know a certain team can offer $2M to one off their guys and they have the right to match your offer through a tender situation, you know you only need to offer $2.1M to prevent their ability to match. It can save you some cash. That's a simplistic example but you get the idea.

I think this is the whole reason nobody BUT the team itself knows the full amount of a guy's contract and what it counts against the cap.

There has to be an element of safe-guarding so that teams cannot pin down what room the other teams have. Now, they can get nearly the exact amount(s)...but they'll never know 100% the to-the-dollar amounts, which could swing heavily into the hundred of thousands if a team plays its cards close to its vest.

This would explain the sheer complexity of it all, why not even the professional "analysts" can arrive at the same cap number on a team's standing.

I cannot imagine guys like Andrew Brandt not being able to do the math on any team's cap situation. That guy is brilliant, IMO. Nobody has the same numbers, which tells me the process is designed specifically for obfuscation.

ArlingtonTexan
03-15-2012, 11:23 AM
The fact that all of this is so insanely complicated represents a major issue.

This crap needs to be streamlined.

Not really. Regular Joes really don't "need" to exactly how much money a team does or does not have. I get that free agency is a part of the fun of following a team, but knowing every detail of the finances is not essentially information for any fan.

badboy
03-15-2012, 11:29 AM
Ok smart guys tell me this, how many players are currently under contract? How much is our rookie pool going to be? How are we going to fill out our roster with quality players with the numbers you are coming up with and still have the money to extend next years important FA's now? Quit throwing a bunch of numbers around that just make everyones :headhurts: and answer these apparent easy questions.My understanding is the rookie draft pool is apprx $7 million dollars.

The Medic01
03-15-2012, 11:38 AM
My understanding is the rookie draft pool is apprx $7 million dollars.

Actually its 6m

Pantherstang84
03-15-2012, 11:38 AM
A lot of cap space just got cleared with Mario feasting on wings now.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 11:55 AM
Actually its 6m

That sounds high to me. Last year's was $5.6M and we have much lower picks this year, meaning we should get a lower proportional share of the ~$159M* total pool for year one salaries.

*$159M was last year's total for the league, but since the cap was flat this shouldn't change much. It is tied to the percentage change in overall salary cap. The Colts only had $3.6M last year and they had the 22nd pick. I'm guessing $3.0M to $3.5M could be our number this year with the 26th pick.

darnbni99a
03-15-2012, 12:02 PM
Ive never understood the "were up against the cap!" argument. If we are so damn close to the cap why even bother telling Mario and the world that we want him back? It just doesnt make any sense. We have cap space. We just dont want to be dumb with it.

agreed

time to change ur sig bro lol

Thorn
03-15-2012, 12:04 PM
We should have plenty of cap room now! :lol:

Playoffs
03-15-2012, 12:20 PM
A lot of cap space just got cleared with Mario feasting on wings now.How much? What's the number I wonder?

Dutchrudder
03-15-2012, 12:21 PM
A lot of cap space just got cleared with Mario feasting on wings now.

If zero is your idea of a lot, then yes.

Pantherstang84
03-15-2012, 12:23 PM
If zero is your idea of a lot, then yes.

You would have to be insane to think the Texans were not hold cap space in the hopes he would come back. Of course they were.

Dutchrudder
03-15-2012, 12:30 PM
You would have to be insane to think the Texans were not hold cap space in the hopes he would come back. Of course they were.

Withholding spending is not the same as freeing up cap space. They still have the same amount of cap space as they did on Monday.

Playoffs
03-15-2012, 12:40 PM
They still have the same amount of cap space as they did on Monday.Because he was a FA and therefore didn't count against the cap?

G27RR
03-15-2012, 12:41 PM
You REALLY think we're going to sign someone to the practice squad to the extent that they are of the top 51 paid players? The practice squad doesn't count against the cap.

Nate

I don't think I addressed this the other day. The top 51 only applies from the start of the league year until the first day of the regular season. Since we're trying to see what UFAs we can sign based on cap room, we need to use all players who will count as of the regular season. That means practice squad guys count, as do the 52nd and 53rd roster spots.

I used a somewhat high estimate for the PS guys assuming the team would save a little cap room in case someone goes down and they have to sign someone to the active roster. I used the league minimum amount of $390k for 0 yrs of service and applied it to all 8 spots under the assumption they will fill the whole PS.

PS guys make $5700/week including playoffs, which would be under $100k/guy in most cases. That leaves about $2M for signing UFAs or PS guys to the active roster during the season to replace an injured guy.

Nobody cares that we have room to sign some guys for preseason that will eventually be cut (which is the primary reason the top 51 rule is in there). They care about how much money we might have to keep our starters, important backups and sign anyone else who will be here during the season.

That's why I set it up the way I did.

Pantherstang84
03-15-2012, 12:43 PM
Withholding spending is not the same as freeing up cap space. They still have the same amount of cap space as they did on Monday.

You're playing semantics here. Whether they were actually spending it or budgeting for it, the FO was reserving money in the hopes Mario would come back. That is money they could have gone and spent to lock up the starting center and right guard.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 12:46 PM
Because he was a FA and therefore didn't count against the cap?

Exactly, no more real cap room, but it could have freed up room they were holding back from the free agent market until they saw what happened.

Dutchrudder
03-15-2012, 12:46 PM
Because he was a FA and therefore didn't count against the cap?

Yeah, all the free agents came off the books on Monday, so there was no money tied up in any of them, Mario included. We probably had money set aside for Mario, but that didn't affect our cap space. It's like bidding on an auction, where you don't lose money for placing the bid, but you need to have the money if you win.

The guys we cut on the other hand may still be owed money in guarantees, signing bonus or whatever. Those portions stay on the books, but the rest gets removed when they are cut. That's what 'dead money' is.

mussop
03-15-2012, 12:50 PM
Withholding spending is not the same as freeing up cap space. They still have the same amount of cap space as they did on Monday.


Then what were they planning on Paying Mario with had he come back?:headhurts:

badboy
03-15-2012, 12:52 PM
That sounds high to me. Last year's was $5.6M and we have much lower picks this year, meaning we should get a lower proportional share of the ~$159M* total pool for year one salaries.

*$159M was last year's total for the league, but since the cap was flat this shouldn't change much. It is tied to the percentage change in overall salary cap. The Colts only had $3.6M last year and they had the 22nd pick. I'm guessing $3.0M to $3.5M could be our number this year with the 26th pick.For 7 picks? I think you are way low but just me guessing.

Playoffs
03-15-2012, 01:00 PM
Dayy-umm, so we're still behind the 8-ball. So Myers is highly unlikely to be resigned?

Fico
03-15-2012, 01:10 PM
Dayy-umm, so we're still behind the 8-ball. So Myers is highly unlikely to be resigned?

Did you read the thread? We have space.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 01:18 PM
For 7 picks? I think you are way low but just me guessing.

Here's what happened in 2011. JJ had a $2.043M hit for 2011, but the total was still just $5.08M for the seven picks still on our active roster at the end of 2011 even with 40% going to JJ (pick 11). Brooks Reed was $673k, Harris $600k, Keo $473k, Carmichael $474k, Yates $421k and Newton 399k.

Maybe I should have said $4M-$5M to sign our picks. I need to double-check what counts against the rookie pool.

TheMatrix31
03-15-2012, 01:25 PM
Not really. Regular Joes really don't "need" to exactly how much money a team does or does not have. I get that free agency is a part of the fun of following a team, but knowing every detail of the finances is not essentially information for any fan.


Not for us, not so we can play GM. But when people who are involved with the team or media or whoever have seemingly no clue and you're getting different numbers every single place you turn, that's a problem.

b0ng
03-15-2012, 01:30 PM
Then what were they planning on Paying Mario with had he come back?:headhurts:

Can easily re-structure a few more contracts or cut a few guys.

Playoffs
03-15-2012, 01:30 PM
Did you read the thread? We have space.Do we?:

Stephanie Stradley ‏ @StephStradley Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Mangold contract was 8 years/$57.4 m. $25 million guar. That is what Myers agent is looking for as stated on XM radio

The Medic01
03-15-2012, 01:40 PM
Do we?:

Stephanie Stradley ‏ @StephStradley Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Mangold contract was 8 years/$57.4 m. $25 million guar. That is what Myers agent is looking for as stated on XM radio

I thinly that's his asking price usually those go down substantially. Especially.when he realizes no one is going to pay him like Mangold.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 02:05 PM
Do we?:

Stephanie Stradley ‏ @StephStradley Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Mangold contract was 8 years/$57.4 m. $25 million guar. That is what Myers agent is looking for as stated on XM radio

Myers is 30. I can't see him getting a 8 yr contract. Assuming he wants to avg $7.2M a year as that contract does, we could do that if it is backloaded a bit or we go the signing bonus route. I don't think he will get full Mangold money though.

As someone else said, there are at least a couple guys who could be restructured or cut to free up several million if we need it.

GP
03-15-2012, 02:15 PM
Myers is 30. I can't see him getting a 8 yr contract. Assuming he wants to avg $7.2M a year as that contract does, we could do that if it is backloaded a bit or we go the signing bonus route. I don't think he will get full Mangold money though.

As someone else said, there are at least a couple guys who could be restructured or cut to free up several million if we need it.

Agreed.

By the way, thank you for your efforts here. You have zero rep, but in my eyes you have been a great contributor so far. You and Dutch have tried very hard to research and find the numbers...you've worked harder than the professional guys like McClain. Thank you!

I'm sending you rep, maybe it'll get you a number other than zero...because you deserve to have recognition. Glad you're here, pal.

EDIT: Damn, it didn't get you into "real number" status. Can you guys hit him with some rep? He deserves it.

Dan B.
03-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Agreed.

By the way, thank you for your efforts here. You have zero rep, but in my eyes you have been a great contributor so far. You and Dutch have tried very hard to research and find the numbers...you've worked harder than the professional guys like McClain. Thank you!

I'm sending you rep, maybe it'll get you a number other than zero...because you deserve to have recognition. Glad you're here, pal.

EDIT: Damn, it didn't get you into "real number" status. Can you guys hit him with some rep? He deserves it.

I think you have to have a certain number of posts to get/give rep -- 50 IIRC.

GP
03-15-2012, 02:21 PM
I think you have to have a certain number of posts to get/give rep -- 50 IIRC.

Yeah, I just thought of that...so thank you for bringing that up! I forgot.

Hey there, G27RR...

Get your post count up to 50! About 22 more to go.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Yeah, I just thought of that...so thank you for bringing that up! I forgot.

Hey there, G27RR...

Get your post count up to 50! About 22 more to go.

Thanks for your comments and the rep, much appreciated.

NCTexan
03-15-2012, 02:30 PM
Do we?:

Stephanie Stradley ‏ @StephStradley Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Mangold contract was 8 years/$57.4 m. $25 million guar. That is what Myers agent is looking for as stated on XM radio

I think that just indicates the FO is smart and doesn't want to overpay.

Señor Stan
03-15-2012, 02:46 PM
Do we?:

Stephanie Stradley ‏ @StephStradley Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Mangold contract was 8 years/$57.4 m. $25 million guar. That is what Myers agent is looking for as stated on XM radio

Why does that Snickers commercial come to mind?

Not going anywhere for a while...

Fico
03-15-2012, 02:55 PM
Do we?:

Stephanie Stradley ‏ @StephStradley Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Mangold contract was 8 years/$57.4 m. $25 million guar. That is what Myers agent is looking for as stated on XM radio

Myers is not Mangold. He offers no scheme versatility. He has to be on a team who use a ZBS primarily. If he was going to get that much money he would have been signed by now. He has an offer from the Texans. He testing the market to see if he can get more and if the Texans will match.

My guess is he gets around $35 over 5 with 14-16 guaranteed.

Even he got the Mangold contract, we could afford it. We just would never pay that for him, I hope.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 03:04 PM
I think that just indicates the FO is smart and doesn't want to overpay.

Yep. They are waiting to see what he is offered, and they will match up to some ceiling they have in mind. The ceiling will represent what value they think he has to the team vs going with someone cheaper.

I'd like to keep him as long as it isn't stupid money.

G27RR
03-15-2012, 03:07 PM
My guess is he gets around $35 over 5 with 14-16 guaranteed.

I'm hoping the stop at about 5yrs/$30M, unless we lose Brisiel, in which case I can see $35M so we don't lose 3/5ths of our line.

Honoring Earl 34
03-15-2012, 03:25 PM
Here's the plan , we let them walk and trade Ben Tate to Cleveland for the 22nd pick . We take Konz and Zeitler and change our name to the Badgers .

G27RR
03-15-2012, 03:27 PM
Here's the plan , we let them walk and trade Ben Tate to Cleveland for the 22nd pick . We take Konz and Zeitler and change our name to the Badgers .

We don't need no stinkin' badgers!

Sorry, couldn't resist, and GP and Dan said I need to get my post count up.

Honoring Earl 34
03-15-2012, 03:35 PM
We don't need no stinkin' badgers!

Sorry, couldn't resist, and GP and Dan said I need to get my post count up.

You can never go wrong with a blazing saddles reference . :clap:

So it's small post counts should be seen and not heard ?

Dutchrudder
03-15-2012, 04:19 PM
You can never go wrong with a blazing saddles reference . :clap:

So it's small post counts should be seen and not heard ?

No way man! It's from UHF the Weird Al movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-fqPvmiaAM

Honoring Earl 34
03-15-2012, 04:22 PM
No way man! It's from UHF the Weird Al movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-fqPvmiaAM

The original quote of " badges , we don't need no stinking badges " was Blazing Saddles . If there was a badger quote , I learned something new today .

G27RR
03-15-2012, 05:35 PM
No way man! It's from UHF the Weird Al movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-fqPvmiaAM


Yep, I loved that movie.

Honoring Earl, the movie UHF used the badgers line as a take-off of the Blazing Saddles line. The whole UHF movie parodied bits of other movies.

ArlingtonTexan
03-15-2012, 05:39 PM
We don't need no stinkin' badgers!

Sorry, couldn't resist, and GP and Dan said I need to get my post count up.

Those badgers have been preety good to us

G27RR
03-15-2012, 06:07 PM
Those badgers have been preety good to us

Yep, but I still couldn't resist making the joke.

pec0sb0b
03-15-2012, 08:04 PM
"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinkin' badges!" Treasure of the Sierra Madre 1949 by John Huston

I think Mel Brooks was second with Blazing Saddles.

ObsiWan
03-15-2012, 08:12 PM
Agreed.

By the way, thank you for your efforts here. You have zero rep, but in my eyes you have been a great contributor so far. You and Dutch have tried very hard to research and find the numbers...you've worked harder than the professional guys like McClain. Thank you!

I'm sending you rep, maybe it'll get you a number other than zero...because you deserve to have recognition. Glad you're here, pal.

EDIT: Damn, it didn't get you into "real number" status. Can you guys hit him with some rep? He deserves it.

Good point. I got him.
I think one more green square was added :D

G27RR
03-15-2012, 09:25 PM
"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinkin' badges!" Treasure of the Sierra Madre 1949 by John Huston

I think Mel Brooks was second with Blazing Saddles.

That makes sense. I'm not up on too many '40s movies.

Kimmy
03-16-2012, 05:37 AM
Agreed.

By the way, thank you for your efforts here. You have zero rep, but in my eyes you have been a great contributor so far. You and Dutch have tried very hard to research and find the numbers...you've worked harder than the professional guys like McClain. Thank you!

I'm sending you rep, maybe it'll get you a number other than zero...because you deserve to have recognition. Glad you're here, pal.

EDIT: Damn, it didn't get you into "real number" status. Can you guys hit him with some rep? He deserves it.

I got him. He does have good rep, and it will show once his post count hits 50 :)