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TEXANS84
03-09-2012, 05:48 PM
Per source:

John McClain @McClain_on_NFL

NFL has suspended Texans punter Brett Hartmann for 4 games for violating substance abuse policy. Got credit 4 1 n playoffs.

TEXANS84
03-09-2012, 05:50 PM
According to Mark Berman,

"He served one during the playoffs. Hartmann has to serve 3 more".

So looks as if the first 3 games of the season, it's back to Matt Turk or other.

drs23
03-09-2012, 05:59 PM
Hmmm, wonder what substance?

TexanSam
03-09-2012, 06:01 PM
:kubepalm:

NitroGSXR
03-09-2012, 06:03 PM
Hmmm, wonder what substance?

THEN... what I want to know is... did he test positive before or after his injury?

J_R
03-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Cushing, Brown, Hartmann...

COME ON!

SteveSlaton20
03-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Wth...

So now we need a replacement for Rackers and Hartmann.

edo783
03-09-2012, 06:14 PM
THEN... what I want to know is... did he test positive before or after his injury?

That would be an interesting question to have asked and answered.

TexanSam
03-09-2012, 06:20 PM
Wth...

So now we need a replacement for Rackers and Hartmann.

Turk didn't do too bad when he came back for us last year, so my guess is we keep him on the roster.

Playoffs
03-09-2012, 06:21 PM
http://www.q104.ca/userfiles/bret-hart-06.jpg

All those guys use performance/'roid drugs. :bat:

CretorFrigg
03-09-2012, 06:21 PM
Marijuana?

Premier
03-09-2012, 06:22 PM
substance abuse?? maybe he was gettin high during his rehab.. id hate to think that our punter is using PEDs..

ckhouston
03-09-2012, 06:25 PM
substance abuse?? maybe he was gettin high during his rehab.. id hate to think that our punter is using PEDs..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpXoTj0kTKk

But then again ... pretty buff for a punter.

PapaL
03-09-2012, 06:31 PM
Overtrain much?

drs23
03-09-2012, 06:34 PM
I just saw it's from Wimpy, er Pancackes. Wonder if he's even right?

False Start
03-09-2012, 06:40 PM
Maybe that's why they call him "Hitman", maybe he's been taking hits from the bong. http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii202/J4103V/icon_bong.gif

TheMatrix31
03-09-2012, 07:35 PM
What a dumb guy.

GP
03-09-2012, 07:43 PM
Geez.

brakos82
03-09-2012, 07:44 PM
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/408876_376089142421000_100000597537175_1387290_504 917654_n.jpg

Big Lou
03-09-2012, 08:52 PM
Sure he's not pregnant?

arb729
03-09-2012, 09:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpXoTj0kTKk

But then again ... pretty buff for a punter.


he's ripped for sure, but he's not steroid ripped, IMO

if he's given Vicodin/the like for the pain after surgery, does that show up in a test? Is that even banned?

Texan_Bill
03-09-2012, 09:16 PM
This is AWESOME to me!! A punter busted for PED's is hilarious!!

Matt Turk is stoked!!!

All that said, I'm glad Texans players are doing things to "take the next step" towards a championship!!!! :truck:

I hope that we next find out that Mojo was on anti-depressants!!! That would be AWESOME!!!!


LMFAO... Mojo is a modern reference!! :lol:

NastyNate
03-09-2012, 09:18 PM
he's ripped for sure, but he's not steroid ripped, IMO

if he's given Vicodin/the like for the pain after surgery, does that show up in a test? Is that even banned?

http://www.5thround.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FormerUFCHeavyweightChampTimSylvia.jpg

Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.

Texn4life
03-09-2012, 09:41 PM
Well one angle to look at it is at least McClain was able to get out in front of this story.

The other is at least we're looking at Punter (who was hurt for the last quarter plus of the season anyway) being out the first few games as opposed to the mess that the Broncos are in. I'm suspecting that we were going to bring competition for him anyway seeing as he's coming off of an ACL injury.

Texan_Bill
03-09-2012, 09:45 PM
http://www.5thround.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FormerUFCHeavyweightChampTimSylvia.jpg

Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.

Anna Nicole Smith (another modern reference ;) ) thinks Tim Sylvia has big boobs!!!

Texan_Bill
03-09-2012, 09:47 PM
http://www.5thround.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FormerUFCHeavyweightChampTimSylvia.jpg

Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.

BTW, I heard Dunlop Tire is thinking about endrorsing Sylvia!! :D

arb729
03-10-2012, 12:05 AM
http://www.5thround.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FormerUFCHeavyweightChampTimSylvia.jpg

Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.

Point well taken.

That being said, why wouldn't he just take HGH and recover from the ACL tear in 4 months, ala Wes Welker?

gg no re
03-10-2012, 12:26 AM
This is AWESOME to me!! A punter busted for PED's is hilarious!!

http://blogimages.thescore.com/nfl/files/2010/11/steroids10.jpg

NastyNate
03-10-2012, 01:16 AM
Point well taken.

That being said, why wouldn't he just take HGH and recover from the ACL tear in 4 months, ala Wes Welker?

Yup yup, HGH is the new wonder drug and damn near impossible to get busted for. Maybe he was purchasing from Sly Stallone?

TheMatrix31
03-10-2012, 08:31 AM
The fact that so many athletes take these things for healing more than flat-out size and strength only emphasizes the point that I think the whole discussion over these things is pretty damn overblown, especially in baseball.

Obviously when you get into kids seeing players doing this stuff and thinking they have to do it themselves, that's another issue altogether.

GP
03-10-2012, 02:57 PM
The problem is the old "slippery slope" analogy.

Once you allow that one guy int he NFL to use HGH (or whatever) the NFL has set a precedent and it will be hell for everyone in terms of trying to argue that "your guy" needs it, when maybe he doesn't, etc.

There would be roughly 90% of the NFL players claiming they need it to recover from various injuries.

Maybe they could only allow it in extreme cases where a guy had been I.R.'d and it's a blown ACL or other SEVERE ligament injuries. It'd have to be verified by maybe three separate, NFL-approved/sanctioned physicians who all three concur that the player DID receive a severe ligament injury, or whatever they deem is severe...and it would have to be administered by the NFL's docs at THEIR chosen facility and also witnessed by separate, impartial witnesses. Then they'd need to say "He can only take it for x-amount of time," then they test him after the treatment was to have ended to make sure he cleans it out of his system 100%. Then RE-TEST that player throughout the year to make sure he hasn't reverted back to taking it again.

Sounds like a damn difficult process, IMO, to make it available AND properly sanctioned by the NFL. Otherwise, every guy on every team is going to flood the NFL offices with petitions to use this "therapy" for what ails them.

Just my thoughts on why it could or could not be allowed in today's NFL.

SCOTTexans
03-10-2012, 03:01 PM
That would be an interesting question to have asked and answered.

"Both John McClain of the Houston Chronicle and Mark Berman of Fox 26 in Houston have the report.

Hartmann was injured reserve at the end of the season, and the penalty came down during the Texans playoff push. He technically served the first game of his four-game suspension for the playoff loss in Baltimore."

Looks like it was to speed up his recovery, sense he failed it during the playoff

SheTexan
03-10-2012, 04:50 PM
"Both John McClain of the Houston Chronicle and Mark Berman of Fox 26 in Houston have the report.

Hartmann was injured reserve at the end of the season, and the penalty came down during the Texans playoff push. He technically served the first game of his four-game suspension for the playoff loss in Baltimore."

Looks like it was to speed up his recovery, sense he failed it during the playoff

Why ASSUME he was taking "roids?" Why would the NFL even test him if he was on IR?

I have a feeling he tested POS for something other than "roids" or prescription drugs! JMO! Don't really care cause I like Turk better anyway.

CloakNNNdagger
03-10-2012, 05:04 PM
The time line of when the abuse occurred then was discovered, to the time a suspension was handed down can be a very long period of time.

The initial occurrence of an abuse, later confirmed by testing (and possibly by a second confirmatory test requested later by the player) may lead to disciplinary fine, but not suspension. The abuse is not disclosed publically, and the player is placed in an anonymous staged "therapeutic" program. It is not until at least a second occurrence of abuse or other non-compliance within the program is uncovered by testing that a 4 game suspension in addition to any further fine.

NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE POLICY AND PROGRAM FOR SUBSTANCES OF ABUSE (http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/PlayerDevelopment/2010%20Drug%20Policy.pdf)

KMG 365
03-10-2012, 05:04 PM
Hartmann was not busted for taking PEDs. He violated the substance abuse policy. Those are two different policies. The substance abuse policy involves things like marijuana, cocaine, etc.

My guess is that he was notified of the positive test between the Bengals playoff game and the Ravens playoff game, hence, the credit for serving one game already.

Once a player is notified of a positive test he usually appeals. That's why we haven't heard about it until now. I imagine Hartmann lost his appeal, therefore, the suspension stands.

Premier
03-10-2012, 05:52 PM
hartmann was doing really well this season, not to mention he was a rookie that handles the game and bad snaps very well.. he is currently the texans record holder for longest punt.. i expect him to have all the texans records over the course of his career.. hes solid...

Premier
03-10-2012, 05:59 PM
Hartmann was not busted for taking PEDs. He violated the substance abuse policy. Those are two different policies. The substance abuse policy involves things like marijuana, cocaine, etc.


ummm performing enhancing drugs fall under the "substance abuse" category. according to NFL rules.. it can be anything ranging from HGH, anabolic steroids, alcohol, to over the counter drugs...

GP
03-10-2012, 06:38 PM
It could have been a lot of things. You can take certain cough medicines, or cold-related relief medicines, and get popped for "substances."

Happens in the UFC too. Those guys cannot take certain medicines or they get popped. Sucks big time...considering the good stuff for clearing up a bad cold or the flu or whatever contains drugs the organization deems non-permissable.

I will reserve judgment until (if at all) we learn more. There is a wide array of things it could have been. He doesn't seem to be a druggie to me. But who knows?

SheTexan: I never would have pegged you as a Turk fan over Hartmann. Hartmann has those looks and the skills, what does Turk have that makes your eyes twinkle? An AARP card? Just kidding! Don't neg rep me! I Luv u! LOL.

SheTexan
03-10-2012, 07:09 PM
It could have been a lot of things. You can take certain cough medicines, or cold-related relief medicines, and get popped for "substances."

Happens in the UFC too. Those guys cannot take certain medicines or they get popped. Sucks big time...considering the good stuff for clearing up a bad cold or the flu or whatever contains drugs the organization deems non-permissable.

I will reserve judgment until (if at all) we learn more. There is a wide array of things it could have been. He doesn't seem to be a druggie to me. But who knows?

SheTexan: I never would have pegged you as a Turk fan over Hartmann. Hartmann has those looks and the skills, what does Turk have that makes your eyes twinkle? An AARP card? Just kidding! Don't neg rep me! I Luv u! LOL.

Sometimes ya just gotta pull for the OLDtimers!! :) NO neg rep my friend! Old is AWESOME!! :winky:

Yankee_In_TX
03-10-2012, 07:40 PM
I believe, based on chatter on 610, he said he got popped for something he was taking during his rehab and 'didn't know' it would cause him to test positive.

My pet peeve is when players say that.

KMG 365
03-10-2012, 08:51 PM
ummm performing enhancing drugs fall under the "substance abuse" category. according to NFL rules.. it can be anything ranging from HGH, anabolic steroids, alcohol, to over the counter drugs...

No, any performance enhancing drug like steroids, HGH, etc fall under the NFL's Anabolic Steroid and Related Substances Policy.

Illegal drugs, otc drugs, prescription drugs and alcohol fall under a different policy called the Substance Abuse Policy.

It's all semantics either way. A player putting something in his body that he's not supposed to is going to get caught.

arb729
03-10-2012, 10:08 PM
I know HGH is technically banned, but they don't have a test for it do they? I thought that never came to fruition after the lockout ended.

HOU-TEX
05-22-2012, 03:43 PM
He was suspended for taking Ritalin. He never got it approved by the NFL before taking. He's now been approved....but still has a 3 game suspension.

"I took something that was under the performance enhancing banned substance list," Hartmann said. "It was something for a medical condition that I didn't have approval for from the NFL and now I currently have approval for it, so I can take it.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18590792/texans-punter-hartmann-now-has-permission-to-take-ritalin

ChampionTexan
05-22-2012, 03:48 PM
He was suspended for taking Ritalin. He never got it approved by the NFL before taking. He's not been approved....but still has a 3 game suspension.



http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18590792/texans-punter-hartmann-now-has-permission-to-take-ritalin

I think that should say "he's now been approved".

HOU-TEX
05-22-2012, 03:54 PM
I think that should say "he's now been approved".

Ha, yeah, you're correct. Corrected it

BullNation4Life
05-22-2012, 04:12 PM
I would call up Da Raidas and ask what they want for Shane Lechler....

Got to be at least worth a 5th....

Playoffs
05-22-2012, 05:23 PM
He was suspended for taking Ritalin. He never got it approved by the NFL before taking...

He probably "over-scored" on the Wonderlic ..... dead giveaway for Ritalin.

TejasTom
05-22-2012, 08:42 PM
He was suspended for taking Ritalin. He never got it approved by the NFL before taking. He's now been approved....but still has a 3 game suspension.



http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18590792/texans-punter-hartmann-now-has-permission-to-take-ritalin

Does this mean he had a prescription?

jtexas
05-22-2012, 09:09 PM
Teams require players to report all prescriptions they are on and EVERYTHING in the future should be approved through the team doctor. Add to it there are official drug lists and league meetings reviewing the policy on annual basis. The players who "claim" they didn't know or forgot to report it is equivalent to us telling a police officer we forgot we couldn't drink and drive. I think cushings excuse of getting pregnant was better than this.

Texan_Bill
05-22-2012, 09:16 PM
I would call up Da Raidas and ask what they want for Shane Lechler....

Got to be at least worth a 5th....

Well except for the fact that he's 35 y/o and will make $3 mill this year with incentives that could reach $ 3.8 mill...

Yeah. Not so much.

JPPT1974
05-22-2012, 09:19 PM
Well he made a mistake he admits that he did not went and get the NFL's permission over taking that for his ADD. Poor guy!

Texan_Bill
05-22-2012, 09:19 PM
He was suspended for taking Ritalin. He never got it approved by the NFL before taking. He's now been approved....but still has a 3 game suspension.



http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18590792/texans-punter-hartmann-now-has-permission-to-take-ritalin

That's kinda jacked up!! Obviously he is in need of a particular med. and while he may not gotten it "approved" by the league why would the league not back off on the suspension???? -----> Roger GODdell

GP
05-22-2012, 11:33 PM
Ritalin? Wow.

So Ritalin boosts performance? I always figured it just helped a guy with ADD to not annoy the hell out of everyone around him.

Seems a bit harsh to put Ritalin on the PED list.

The Pencil Neck
05-22-2012, 11:46 PM
Ritalin? Wow.

So Ritalin boosts performance? I always figured it just helped a guy with ADD to not annoy the hell out of everyone around him.

Seems a bit harsh to put Ritalin on the PED list.

I'm sure stuff like pseudophed is on the list, too. When I was competing, I was amazed at the stuff I couldn't take and that was just the AAU. Besides the stuff that actually boosts performance, a lot of compounds can give you false positives for other things so you have to stay away from that stuff, too.

infantrycak
05-22-2012, 11:51 PM
Ritalin? Wow.

So Ritalin boosts performance? I always figured it just helped a guy with ADD to not annoy the hell out of everyone around him.

Seems a bit harsh to put Ritalin on the PED list.

I don't agree with it being on the PED list and think if he had a prescription for it the NFL should have considered a warning. Kids are starting to snort it in massive doses and even inject it with what they claim are cocaine like effects which also to my knowledge would have no performance enhancing effect.

CloakNNNdagger
05-23-2012, 06:52 AM
Ritalin is most commonly prescribed to children with Attention Deficit Disorder, but the effects of Ritalin on adults are usually quite different from the effects on children. Ritalin is sometimes prescribed to treat depression, for instance, because it has overt stimulative effects that is in opposition to the calming effects the drug has on hyperactive kids. Paradoxically, when used by adults, Ritalin actually creates a feeling of hyperactivity. It's stimulative effects are very much amphetamine-like, commonly leading to weight loss, insomnia, tremors, anxiety, high blood pressure, fast heart rate. There is good reason that this would be a banned substance in an adult NFL player.

Texan_Bill
05-23-2012, 08:51 AM
Ritalin is most commonly prescribed to children with Attention Deficit Disorder, but the effects of Ritalin on adults are usually quite different from the effects on children. Ritalin is sometimes prescribed to treat depression, for instance, because it has overt stimulative effects that is in opposition to the calming effects the drug has on hyperactive kids. Paradoxically, when used by adults, Ritalin actually creates a feeling of hyperactivity. It's stimulative effects are very much amphetamine-like, commonly leading to weight loss, insomnia, tremors, anxiety, high blood pressure, fast heart rate. There is good reason that this would be a banned substance in an adult NFL player.


We completely agree...

Signed,

Adderall

ChampionTexan
05-23-2012, 08:55 AM
Ritalin is most commonly prescribed to children with Attention Deficit Disorder, but the effects of Ritalin on adults are usually quite different from the effects on children. Ritalin is sometimes prescribed to treat depression, for instance, because it has overt stimulative effects that is in opposition to the calming effects the drug has on hyperactive kids. Paradoxically, when used by adults, Ritalin actually creates a feeling of hyperactivity. It's stimulative effects are very much amphetamine-like, commonly leading to weight loss, insomnia, tremors, anxiety, high blood pressure, fast heart rate. There is good reason that this would be a banned substance in an adult NFL player.

So Doc - given that it appears Ritalin would not be a legitimate treatment of adult ADHD, is depression the likely condition that an adult taking it would be treating, or are there other legitimate uses in adults?

GP
05-23-2012, 10:33 AM
I'm sure stuff like pseudophed is on the list, too. When I was competing, I was amazed at the stuff I couldn't take and that was just the AAU. Besides the stuff that actually boosts performance, a lot of compounds can give you false positives for other things so you have to stay away from that stuff, too.

Ah, I see. Makes sense now.

Ritalin is most commonly prescribed to children with Attention Deficit Disorder, but the effects of Ritalin on adults are usually quite different from the effects on children. Ritalin is sometimes prescribed to treat depression, for instance, because it has overt stimulative effects that is in opposition to the calming effects the drug has on hyperactive kids. Paradoxically, when used by adults, Ritalin actually creates a feeling of hyperactivity. It's stimulative effects are very much amphetamine-like, commonly leading to weight loss, insomnia, tremors, anxiety, high blood pressure, fast heart rate. There is good reason that this would be a banned substance in an adult NFL player.

So Doc - given that it appears Ritalin would not be a legitimate treatment of adult ADHD, is depression the likely condition that an adult taking it would be treating, or are there other legitimate uses in adults?

I forgot it has opposite effects upon adults. Thanks, CnD.

And I'm with ChampionTexan here: Is there any other reason an adult would need Ritalin, other than for fighting depression?

Rey
05-23-2012, 12:15 PM
Well his suspension did get reduced at least.

drs23
05-23-2012, 03:00 PM
Well his suspension did get reduced at least.

Really? When did that come down? He got credit for the playoff game and has to sit the first 3 games this season. At least that's the last I heard.

Gotta link?

infantrycak
05-23-2012, 03:05 PM
Really? When did that come down? He got credit for the playoff game and has to sit the first 3 games this season. At least that's the last I heard.

Gotta link?

There have been conflicting reports whether he got credit or it got reduced. I have seen both but do not have links for you.

Rey
05-23-2012, 03:21 PM
Really? When did that come down? He got credit for the playoff game and has to sit the first 3 games this season. At least that's the last I heard.

Gotta link?

There have been conflicting reports whether he got credit or it got reduced. I have seen both but do not have links for you.

In the link that HOU TEX posted it said it got reduced...

I have seen/heard that he got credit for the play-off game, a while ago....but that just seems a little odd...I dunno...

G27RR
05-23-2012, 08:15 PM
Ah, I see. Makes sense now.

I forgot it has opposite effects upon adults. Thanks, CnD.

And I'm with ChampionTexan here: Is there any other reason an adult would need Ritalin, other than for fighting depression?

Narcolepsy and associated EDS (excessive daytime sleepiness), as well as chronic fatigue syndrome, have been treated with ritalin.

Rey
05-23-2012, 08:26 PM
Hartmann said it was for add i think.

G27RR
05-23-2012, 08:29 PM
Hartmann said it was for add i think.

Right, but people were curious if that was the real reason because there can be some problems using ritalin to treat ADD in some adults. Using it to treat adults was considered an "off-label" use last time I looked. It is intended primarily for treating that disorder in children and teenagers.

(Off-label doesn't mean it's prohibited for other uses, it's just not the primary purpose as approved by the FDA)

Texanmike02
05-23-2012, 08:42 PM
Right, but people were curious if that was the real reason because there can be some problems using ritalin to treat ADD in some adults. Using it to treat adults was considered an "off-label" use last time I looked. It is intended primarily for treating that disorder in children and teenagers.

(Off-label doesn't mean it's prohibited for other uses, it's just not the primary purpose as approved by the FDA)

I take Ritalin.

Mike

G27RR
05-23-2012, 08:47 PM
I take Ritalin.

Mike

I assume you're posting that to say that you don't have problems with it. If so, great and I'm glad it works for you. I said "some adults" can have problems and that's why people were wondering what some of the other reasons were that people may take it.

I also didn't say I didn't believe Brett. He should have followed the rules though and reported it, then none of us would even be having this discussion.

CloakNNNdagger
05-23-2012, 10:08 PM
Depression and narcolepsy are the two conditions usually treated with Ritalin.

Just like ADHD children on Ritalin who become MORE hyperactive, there are the exceptions where an adult placed on Ritalin will become calmer. Most adults on Ritalin that I have encountered over the years were on Ritalin as youngsters and continued to show results into adulthood.

Texan_Bill
05-23-2012, 10:28 PM
Depression and narcolepsy are the two conditions usually treated with Ritalin.

Just like ADHD children on Ritalin who become MORE hyperactive, there are the exceptions where an adult placed on Ritalin will become calmer. Most adults on Ritalin that I have encountered over the years were on Ritalin as youngsters and continued to show results into adulthood.

Hey Doc, I was mis-diagnosed(sp) and was put on adderall..... As it turns out Adderall gave me very much of a sense of being on cocaine/X (not that I know anything about those things)...

It was at that point that I chose to no longer refill those or that particular prescription.

Since then, I've dabbled with Cymbalta(sp) and I have completely gotten away from Paxil.....

In short, I've talked to you about ALL of the meds I've been on over the years. That said, I've given up on all that and don't even take aspririn or iron suplements as a regimen anymore.

CloakNNNdagger
05-23-2012, 11:00 PM
Right, but people were curious if that was the real reason because there can be some problems using ritalin to treat ADD in some adults. Using it to treat adults was considered an "off-label" use last time I looked. It is intended primarily for treating that disorder in children and teenagers.

(Off-label doesn't mean it's prohibited for other uses, it's just not the primary purpose as approved by the FDA)

"Off-label" denotes that the drug has not passed the clinical trials recognizing its safety and/or efficacy (effectiveness) for a designated use. In the case of Ritalin used in adults for ADHD, there have been a significantly higher rate of cardiovascular events (such as heart attacks and strokes) associated with its use as compared to other drugs used for that purpose and as compared to the rates seen in children (goes to safety). This is besides the fact that the "paradoxical"effect is the rule rather than the exception (goes to efficacy)

TimeKiller
05-24-2012, 05:34 PM
So he has permission to use it now? Why would they give him permission to use it while simultaneously suspending him for it? That's just stupid.

3 games for an ink and paper process violation?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bureaucratic

Wolf
06-02-2012, 07:41 PM
I guess Hartmann picked the wrong treatment drug

Brown was suspended four games by the league in March for violating the league’s policy on performance-enhancing substances. Brown revealed last month that he was suspended for taking Adderall, a prescription medication usually given to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Brown had a prescription for the drug, which he said he’s used since entering the league, but he did not get prior approval before taking it.

Hartmann was suspended for taking Ritalin, which is used to treat the same conditions as Adderall. Hartmann’s reduction and Brown’s exoneration are a major break from policy for the league which has long maintained that there is no wiggle room for players who violated the PED policy. The next step should probably be a revision of how the league deals with prescription medication like Adderall since they shouldn’t be classified alongside anabolic steroids.

Brown suspension was overturned, Hartmanns reduced

I wonder why they didn't wipe out both suspensions ?(being Brown didn't get permission either)
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/01/andre-brown-says-his-suspensions-been-lifted/

CloakNNNdagger
06-02-2012, 08:28 PM
I guess Hartmann picked the wrong treatment drug



Brown suspension was overturned, Hartmanns reduced

I wonder why they didn't wipe out both suspensions ?(being Brown didn't get permission either)
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/01/andre-brown-says-his-suspensions-been-lifted/


Just a theory. Brown had been taking Adderrall prior to being taken into the NFL. Hartman began taking the Ritalin after he was taken into the league.

infantrycak
06-02-2012, 08:39 PM
I wish we had a former college or pro kicker or punter on the MB who could explain why one person can't learn to do both. It's always seemed odd to me.

TexCanada
06-02-2012, 08:59 PM
I wish we had a former college or pro kicker or punter on the MB who could explain why one person can't learn to do both. It's always seemed odd to me.

I just don't think there are that many people who excel at both. They could learn how, but its unlikely that they would be as good as someone who specializes in just one of the two skills.

CloakNNNdagger
06-02-2012, 08:59 PM
I wish we had a former college or pro kicker or punter on the MB who could explain why one person can't learn to do both. It's always seemed odd to me.


This is an MB "discussion" on that very subject. Some interesting good potential points.

NFL Question - Why don't kickers also punt? (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/archive/t-525924.html)

infantrycak
06-02-2012, 09:24 PM
I just don't think there are that many people who excel at both. They could learn how, but its unlikely that they would be as good as someone who specializes in just one of the two skills.

I would like to hear why one player can't be good at both. Danny White was a very good QB (top all time QB rating when he retired) and a very good punter - that was the most vicious potential for fake punts ever. Those are two much more divergent skill sets.

This is an MB "discussion" on that very subject. Some interesting good potential points.

NFL Question - Why don't kickers also punt? (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/archive/t-525924.html)

Thanks for the link. I am still not persuaded.

Wolf
06-02-2012, 10:06 PM
I wish we had a former college or pro kicker or punter on the MB who could explain why one person can't learn to do both. It's always seemed odd to me.

me too. I did do some search around the internet and even though this is wikipedia. This is the best answer I have found

The kicker initially was not a specialized role. Until the 1960s, the kicker was almost always doubled at another position on the roster, George Blanda, Frank Gifford and Paul Hornung being some of the more prominent examples of players who were stars at other positions as well as being known for their kicking abilities. As the era of "two-way" players gave way to increased specialization, teams would employ a specialist at the punter or kicker position. Because of the difference in techniques needed, to avoid leg fatigue, and to reduce the risk of injury, on the professional level most teams employ separate players to handle the jobs. The placekicker usually will only punt when the punter is injured, and vice-versa
(One player often handles both jobs in the Canadian Football League, which has smaller active rosters than in the NFL.) A professional team will occasionally even have a "kickoff specialist" who handles only the kickoffs and serves as a backup to the kicker who handles field goals and extra points. This is typically done to further protect a premier point-scoring kicker from injury or if he, while accurate, does not have sufficient distance on kickoffs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placekicker#Specialized_role_of_kicker_.28vs_punte r.29

maybe also teams think it is better "bang for the buck" to have two or three specialty guys( i.e kick/punter/kick off specialist) than to have one guy do all three roles and the last two roster spots are saved for a guy that will never see the field.
idonno:

CloakNNNdagger
06-02-2012, 11:00 PM
Another player wins ADHD suspension appeal; what about Virgil Green? (http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/another-player-wins-adhd-suspension-appeal)
Jun 1, 2012 4:22 PM


Giants RB Andre Brown won his appeal and will not have to serve the four-game suspension he had been hit with in March. He had originally been found to have violated the league's policy on performance-enhancing drugs.

But Brown, who spent part of the 2010 season with the Broncos, says the suspension had resulted from a clerical error regarding his prescription for the ADHD medication Adderall.

Texans punter Brett Hartmann had also been suspended four games for ADHD meds and won his appeal last week. Unlike Brown, Hartmann must serve a reduced three-game suspension instead.

Judging from the players' statements, it appears the divergent appeal outcomes stems from the timing of each player's having gotten their prescriptions approved by the league. Brown said a failure on his part to fill out the proper paperwork had triggered his suspension:

It was something that I've been on since I've been in the league, which was Adderall. I just forgot to fill out some paperwork and that was it.

Meanwhile, Hartmann admits to not having gotten league approval prior to his positive test:

It was just for ADD medicine, but now I have approval to take it from our doctors and the NFL doctors. I just made a mistake. Should have got that approved before. Just got to move on. Serve the three-game suspension.

Hartmann's statement is similar to that of Broncos TE Virgil Green, who was also suspended four games for ADHD meds:

I was suspended for four games for taking ADHD medication prior to obtaining an exemption from the League. I have now obtained the proper exemption to take the medication that has been prescribed to me to treat my condition. I apologize to my teammates, coaches and fans for my mistake and will make sure to never let anything like this happen again.

According to an article by Jeff Legwold in the Denver Post, Green already lost his appeal of the suspension, which reportedly stems from a drug test administered prior to his rookie 2011 season.

So, what gives? Are the circumstances of Green's suspension different than those of Hartmann's? If not, why does Green still face a four-game penalty while Hartmann's has been cut to three?

Beyond those details though, why is the league suspending players for using ADHD medications they have (presumably) legitimately been taking under the care of their physicians?

Something just doesn't seem right about this policy.

But one thing does: Brown's spelling of Roger Goodell's name...

Suspension lifted !!!!!!!! Thank God

Surely not what he meant, but we're going to interpret it that way.

Texanmike02
06-03-2012, 01:17 PM
I assume you're posting that to say that you don't have problems with it. If so, great and I'm glad it works for you. I said "some adults" can have problems and that's why people were wondering what some of the other reasons were that people may take it.

I also didn't say I didn't believe Brett. He should have followed the rules though and reported it, then none of us would even be having this discussion.

I was just giving a point of reference. Ritalin works for me. Adderal didn't do anything.

Mike

Texanmike02
06-03-2012, 01:19 PM
I guess Hartmann picked the wrong treatment drug



Brown suspension was overturned, Hartmanns reduced

I wonder why they didn't wipe out both suspensions ?(being Brown didn't get permission either)
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/01/andre-brown-says-his-suspensions-been-lifted/

Because selig called in a favor.

Mike

SheTexan
06-03-2012, 01:28 PM
Maybe there's more to the story than JUST taking meds for ADHD, or ADD. I KNOW I read somewhere that Hartmann got caught with elevated levels for mj. Maybe they're just trying to be NICE and cover up that part. I have NO reference to that at all, just remember reading it somewhere when he first got suspended. Maybe someone was just spectulating at the time! Just a thought. LOTS of crap being covered up in the NFL these days.

CloakNNNdagger
06-03-2012, 01:44 PM
Maybe there's more to the story than JUST taking meds for ADHD, or ADD. I KNOW I read somewhere that Hartmann got caught with elevated levels for mj. Maybe they're just trying to be NICE and cover up that part. I have NO reference to that at all, just remember reading it somewhere when he first got suspended. Maybe someone was just spectulating at the time! Just a thought. LOTS of crap being covered up in the NFL these days.

NFL>>>>>>selective memory, selective pursuit, selective justice.......

CloakNNNdagger
06-03-2012, 01:49 PM
Maybe there's more to the story than JUST taking meds for ADHD, or ADD. I KNOW I read somewhere that Hartmann got caught with elevated levels for mj. Maybe they're just trying to be NICE and cover up that part. I have NO reference to that at all, just remember reading it somewhere when he first got suspended. Maybe someone was just spectulating at the time! Just a thought. LOTS of crap being covered up in the NFL these days.

The marijuana was postulated on many sites prior to the revelation of Ritalin. Apparently no validity.

ArlingtonTexan
06-03-2012, 03:27 PM
I wish we had a former college or pro kicker or punter on the MB who could explain why one person can't learn to do both. It's always seemed odd to me.

This like asking me why some professional writers are great essayists and others great novelists or other superior poets since its all writing or why a great presecutor rarely depends anyone (or vise versa) since it all looks like lawyering to me.

There are different skills and techniques involved, place kicking is different than punting. Yeah a good kicker probably does the other better than anyone else on the roster, but that does not make him one of the 32 best in the world at a job function. So, like all writers don't write everything equally, all lawyers don't lawyer everything equally, all kickers don't kick evetything equally.

GP
06-03-2012, 03:46 PM
While I don't normally support the hecklers of Goodell, the subjective/selective punishment system is really galling. To fans, to players, to teams, etc.

Look, it shouldn't matter one freaking bit of Brown did A, B, and C and didn't do X, Y, and Z...and then Hartmann did X, Y, and Z, but did not do A, B, and C. If a guy did a drug on the list, then the guy gets punished. And you don't exonerate one guy completely and then merely reduce the other guys's suspension by one measly game (from the original 4-game suspension down to Hartmann's current 3-game suspension).

McNair should make a personal visit to Goodell like he did back with the Cushing incident. The meeting should be about the level of inconsistency in the handling of the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs.

Goodell is perhaps also over-reaching a bit in the suspensions against the Bounty Gate offenders. He's got a ledger as "evidence" but how the hell can it be proven that the ledger was signed off on (or kept) by players??? For all we know, it was one of Williams' sycophant assistants who kept a ledger and the players never wrote anything nor even initialed it each week!

One thing is for sure, tyrants always keep morbid ledgers of their injustices...I mean, why is it always that the evil people of this world feel compelled to keep a written record of their travesties?!?!? Duh, it's going to one day be used against you! Shaking my muther effing head over that sort of stuff. The complete idiocy of these people to think written records help them more than hurt them. "You know what will really be of great use? If we kept detailed records of every person we hurt. I mean, all the great tyrants do it. Let's start keeping a physical record of our bounties. Plus, we need to also make sure cameras are in the room when we preach to our players about purposefully targeting opponents who have injury histories already. I think this is really going to put our team over the top. Enough of the small potatoes. Let's go FULL BORE."

I applaud what the commish is doing on reducing head injuries/trauma. He's genuinely trying to save the game IMO. It sucks that the NFL "we are accustomed to" is changing, but overall it's a move with the future in mind.

However, Goodell's handling of suspensions is nightmarish at best. It seems to be subjective or selective, and the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs is really cementing that perception people have of Goodell. Throw in the muck and mire of the Bounty Gate player suspensions and Goodell is making a bit of a mess for himself right now.

I think the players stand a good chance of getting reductions or all-out dismissals if it somehow gets to a system beyond the NFL's judiciary system which is anything but judicious. But IIRC, the NFLPA waived certain aspects of arbitration...just not sure if it covers player suspensions too or just revenue sharing stuff.

badboy
06-03-2012, 03:54 PM
I don't get it; all players are told not to take any supplement or medication without approval and he just forgot? That's costly to the team.

Wolf
06-03-2012, 04:27 PM
This like asking me why some professional writers are great essayists and others great novelists or other superior poets since its all writing or why a great presecutor rarely depends anyone (or vise versa) since it all looks like lawyering to me.


http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001035313/depends5_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg

:lol:

on a serious note, I know what it was a typo :ahhaha:

ArlingtonTexan
06-03-2012, 05:40 PM
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001035313/depends5_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg

:lol:

on a serious note, I know what it was a typo :ahhaha:

I make plenty of typos and type plenty of depends type material.

CloakNNNdagger
06-03-2012, 06:56 PM
While I don't normally support the hecklers of Goodell, the subjective/selective punishment system is really galling. To fans, to players, to teams, etc.

Look, it shouldn't matter one freaking bit of Brown did A, B, and C and didn't do X, Y, and Z...and then Hartmann did X, Y, and Z, but did not do A, B, and C. If a guy did a drug on the list, then the guy gets punished. And you don't exonerate one guy completely and then merely reduce the other guys's suspension by one measly game (from the original 4-game suspension down to Hartmann's current 3-game suspension).

McNair should make a personal visit to Goodell like he did back with the Cushing incident. The meeting should be about the level of inconsistency in the handling of the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs.

Goodell is perhaps also over-reaching a bit in the suspensions against the Bounty Gate offenders. He's got a ledger as "evidence" but how the hell can it be proven that the ledger was signed off on (or kept) by players??? For all we know, it was one of Williams' sycophant assistants who kept a ledger and the players never wrote anything nor even initialed it each week!

One thing is for sure, tyrants always keep morbid ledgers of their injustices...I mean, why is it always that the evil people of this world feel compelled to keep a written record of their travesties?!?!? Duh, it's going to one day be used against you! Shaking my muther effing head over that sort of stuff. The complete idiocy of these people to think written records help them more than hurt them. "You know what will really be of great use? If we kept detailed records of every person we hurt. I mean, all the great tyrants do it. Let's start keeping a physical record of our bounties. Plus, we need to also make sure cameras are in the room when we preach to our players about purposefully targeting opponents who have injury histories already. I think this is really going to put our team over the top. Enough of the small potatoes. Let's go FULL BORE."

I applaud what the commish is doing on reducing head injuries/trauma. He's genuinely trying to save the game IMO. It sucks that the NFL "we are accustomed to" is changing, but overall it's a move with the future in mind.

However, Goodell's handling of suspensions is nightmarish at best. It seems to be subjective or selective, and the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs is really cementing that perception people have of Goodell. Throw in the muck and mire of the Bounty Gate player suspensions and Goodell is making a bit of a mess for himself right now.

I think the players stand a good chance of getting reductions or all-out dismissals if it somehow gets to a system beyond the NFL's judiciary system which is anything but judicious. But IIRC, the NFLPA waived certain aspects of arbitration...just not sure if it covers player suspensions too or just revenue sharing stuff.

This is the best, most inclusive, understandable legal analysis of the issues involved in this "conflict" that I've ever come across. It comes from THE LEGALBLITZ.COM, a sports law site. It answers your question.......and many more.

How Roger Goodell Got Appeals Power, and Can Suspended Players Sue? (http://thelegalblitz.com/blog/2012/05/09/how-roger-goodell-got-appeals-power-and-can-suspended-players-sue/)
Posted on May 9, 2012 by Ben

No one can accuse NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell of leniency in his response to the New Orleans Saints bounty scandal. Four players were suspended a total of 31 regular-season games, including Jonathan Vilma who will miss the entire 2012 season. All four players, with the support of the NFL Players Association have appealed their suspensions. Many analysts have predicted that the appeals process could eventually lead to a lawsuit in Federal Court. The Legal Blitz spoke with attorney Adam B. Marks about the NFL’s appeals process and the potential for ensuing federal lawsuits. Marks is a lawyer for Updike, Kelly & Spellacy, P.C. in Connecticut. He is also the author of Personnel Foul on the National Football League Players Association: How Union Executive Director Gene Upshaw Failed the Union’s Members by not Fighting the Enactment of the Personal Conduct Policy, 40 Conn. L. Rev. 1581 (2008). Marks discusses with the Legal Blitz the NFL’s appeals process, how the latest collective bargaining agreement does (or does not) govern the process, and what the players will need to prove to prevail in federal court.


What is the process for appealing these suspensions, and is there any chance that the players will get a reduction?

The NFLPA has filed two grievances on behalf of the suspended Saints’ players. In the first grievance, the union has claimed that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is prohibited from suspending players for behavior that occurred before the latest collective bargaining agreement took effect on August 4, 2011. This argument is based on a section of the new CBA that prohibits Goodell from suspending players for their conduct before that date. The NFLPA is arguing for a broad interpretation of that clause, seeking for it to reach beyond the issues the NFL claims the clause was intended to cover, namely Personal Conduct Policy violations during the labor dispute and lockout. The NFLPA is arguing that the clause is essentially an immunity clause that encompasses any player behavior taking place prior to the effective date of the new CBA, including the behavior underlying these suspensions.

The NFLPA has also filed a second grievance asking an arbitrator to determine that the conduct at issue is not punishable pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, but rather that the suspensions are for non-disclosed payments to players, which is a violation of the collective bargaining agreement and would have to be dealt with under the terms of the CBA. If that were the case, then Goodell would not be permitted to levy these suspensions against the Saints’ players. Instead, the discipline would have to be handed down by arbitrator Stephen Burbank of the University of Pennsylvania Law School, who, pursuant to the terms of the CBA, handles discipline related to salary-cap violations.

Additionally, the four suspended players have each filed appeals pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy. These appeals were filed with Commissioner Goodell, who originally imposed the suspensions. From what I understand, the players are arguing that they have not seen any proof of their guilt and they should not be suspended until they have had an opportunity to review and rebut the evidence against them. This direct appeal to Goodell has the lowest likelihood of success.

It is difficult to determine the likelihood of these suspensions being reduced until it is determined who will be reviewing the suspensions. If the appeals are handled by Goodell pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, it is unlikely the suspensions will be reduced. If the suspensions are instead reviewed by another party, whether it is an independent arbitrator or Ted Cottrell and Art Shell, who review on-the-field conduct suspensions for the NFL, then there is a better chance that the suspensions may be reduced.

Talk about why it’s important that the league categorized this as an off-the-field incident. Can this determination be challenged?

The NFLPA has already challenged the determination of this behavior as an off-the-field incident. This is important because it determines who will review the suspensions. Any suspension pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy for off-the-field conduct is appealed back to Roger Goodell, who imposes the suspensions being appealed. This is akin to a judge sentencing a defendant to prison, and the defendant’s only right of appeal is to the same judge.

If a suspension were characterized as being given for on-the-field conduct, then the suspension is reviewed by Ted Cottrell and Art Shell pursuant to the terms of the collective bargaining agreement. Obviously if the appeal is heard by someone other than the person who levied the suspension in the first place then it is more likely the suspension may be reduced.

Didn’t the players union essentially waive the right to a meaningful appeal under the current CBA?

The right to a meaningful appeal was waived long before the current CBA was agreed to. The right was waived when Gene Upshaw allowed Roger Goodell to put the Personal Conduct Policy in place without requiring it to be collectively bargained. Once the policy was put in place, if the NFLPA wanted to bargain to have Commissioner Goodell give up his right to hear appeals stemming from suspensions pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, it would have to give something to the owners at the bargaining table. Upshaw gave the league and the owners all the leverage regarding the Personal Conduct Policy.

You have to remember that during the most recent lockout the players had bigger issues they needed resolved than discipline pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, which affects only a few players each season. They were fighting against a longer schedule, for improved safety, retirement benefits, and, of course, revenue sharing between the players and owners—matters that affect all union members. Appeal pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy was certainly discussed during bargaining, in fact, it was one of the final issues to be agreed upon, but no change to the appeal process was included in the CBA as it was ratified. In fact, the Personal Conduct Policy is still not a part of the CBA at all. When it came down to the eleventh hour of negotiations, the NFLPA backed off its stance that Goodell’s retention of the appeal process was a deal breaker, and instead agreed to the terms of the CBA. The Personal Conduct Policy remains a league policy, and not a policy included in the CBA.

Adam Shefter predicted “a massive legal battle on many fronts” from the suspension fallout. Is he right?

The NFLPA will certainly do everything it can to fight these suspensions. On Friday, the union filed a pair of grievances with two arbitrators regarding Roger Goodell’s authority to suspend the Saints’ players. All four players have filed appeals of their suspensions pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy. Depending on the success of those grievances and appeals, you could see the NFLPA or the individual players file suit against the NFL in district court. The caveat is that unless the NFLPA can prove that these suspensions in some way violated the terms of the CBA, or that the Personal Conduct Policy itself violates federal law, the players are unlikely to have a persuasive argument in court.

Discuss how the players could take this issue to federal court, and what the players would need to prove there.

These suspensions were imposed pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, which is not a part of the CBA. The Policy was not collectively bargained when it was adopted in 2007, and the new CBA does not incorporate the Policy into its terms. This means that unless the NFLPA is successful in one of its grievances, which nothing I have read indicates it will be, the terms of the CBA do not govern any legal action taken by the players with regard to these suspensions.

This means that the suspended players will have to challenge the legality of the Personal Conduct Policy. The players and union would have to argue that the Personal Conduct Policy violates federal labor law because it is a policy that affects union members’ wages that was not collectively bargained for. The National Labor Relations Act requires an employer to bargain with a union in good faith “with respect to wages, hours, and other terms and conditions of employment.” If the players are able to successfully convince a judge that the Personal Conduct Policy is a policy that directly affects player wages because the commissioner is entitled to impose unpaid suspensions, then it is possible the Policy would be declared a violation of federal law. For a more detailed discussion of this argument, as well as an argument that would permit suspended players to play in the Canadian Football League during the term of their suspensions, please refer your readers to my note, Personnel Foul on the National Football League Players Association: How Union Executive Director Gene Upshaw Failed the Union’s Members by not Fighting the Enactment of the Personal Conduct Policy, 40 Conn. L. Rev. 1581 (2008).

Do you think this incident will be a lesson learned for the NFLPA for their next CBA negotiations?

I would have thought that the NFLPA would not have agreed to a new CBA that allowed Goodell to retain his powers to levy suspensions and hear appeals under the Personal Conduct Policy. The new CBA does not address the Personal Conduct Policy, which instead remains a league policy not subject to collective bargaining. It is difficult to fault the NFLPA, which in almost all respects did a good job representing players’ interests during the negotiations of the new CBA, but until the union is willing to give up something valuable at the bargaining table during negotiations, the Personal Conduct Policy will remain beyond the terms of the CBA and Goodell will retain his unchecked power to suspend players and uphold those suspensions himself.

*Adam Marks is an attorney at Updike, Kelly & Spellacy, P.C. in Hartford, Connecticut and the author of Personnel Foul on the National Football League Players Association: How Union Executive Director Gene Upshaw Failed the Union’s Members by not Fighting the Enactment of the Personal Conduct Policy, 40 Conn. L. Rev. 1581 (2008). This interview is a general discussion of certain legal and related developments, does not create an attorney-client relationship between Mr. Marks and any of our readers, and should not be construed or relied upon as legal advice. Anyone whose own legal rights and obligations may be affected by the general legal principles discussed should seek the advice of an attorney with respect to the particular facts and circumstances of their case.

TejasTom
06-06-2012, 08:32 AM
I don't get it; all players are told not to take any supplement or medication without approval and he just forgot? That's costly to the team.

If they were not on the correct medication when...look a squirrel.

Line_Producer
06-06-2012, 02:27 PM
well, at least he got one game knocked off. Check out this from Rotoworld:


Mike Neal - DL - Packers
Suspended Packers DE Mike Neal says his positive test was triggered by the prescription drug Adderall.
Adderall is commonly used to treat attention deficit disorder, but is on the league's banned substances list. Players are allowed to take it so long as they provide full "medical information" to the league. Neal did not. "I didn’t do anything wrong. I just went and sought help that I thought I needed," Neal said. His four-game ban is unlikely to be overturned.

TEXANS84
09-24-2012, 07:56 PM
@caplannfl: Former #Texans P Brett Hartmann, who was already suspended 3 games by the NFL, has been suspended 8 more games, per source.

Home team fan
09-24-2012, 07:59 PM
For what?

CloakNNNdagger
09-24-2012, 08:14 PM
Several of the 8 game suspensions that I remember being handed out are on the basis of lying to Goodell.

darnbni99a
09-24-2012, 08:23 PM
well dam...

Wolf
09-24-2012, 08:40 PM
wow. I was pulling for the kid

Texn4life
09-24-2012, 08:55 PM
Jones has been steady for us so I doubt we were going to bring him back, but I really do hope he gets an opportunity to play for someone either this year or next.

Texan_Bill
09-24-2012, 09:06 PM
Really?? And I'm not trying to be offensive here. Are we really concerned whether or not we'll get a punter back???

amazing80
09-24-2012, 09:13 PM
Really?? And I'm not trying to be offensive here. Are we really concerned whether or not we'll get a punter back???

Um, he DID have a cannon for a leg, I doubt people are overly depressed about this LOL, but he was a VERY good punter. Not to mention his ability to nail it in the endzone on kickoffs with ease.

Texn4life
09-24-2012, 09:27 PM
Really?? And I'm not trying to be offensive here. Are we really concerned whether or not we'll get a punter back???

Maybe I'm missing something because I didn't read the whole thread, but were people really thinking we were gonna bring him back?

PapaL
09-24-2012, 09:38 PM
Maybe I'm missing something because I didn't read the whole thread, but were people really thinking we were gonna bring him back?

Yes

HJam72
09-24-2012, 09:40 PM
He's not coming back? :foottap:

ChrisG
09-24-2012, 09:42 PM
Really?? And I'm not trying to be offensive here. Are we really concerned whether or not we'll get a punter back???

I was a little seeing as how we cant get a kickoff into the endzone consistently

Texn4life
09-24-2012, 09:44 PM
Yes

Jones would have had to have been terrible, which he hasn't been. Graham hasn't been great on kickoffs, but he's not hurting the team on them either. We're kicking and punting situations are fine. Unless Hartmann can return kicks and punts he won't have a shot at being on this roster until next year.

Lurvinator11
09-24-2012, 10:19 PM
He's not coming back? :foottap:

Yes, he was released during the pre season

Allstar
09-24-2012, 10:40 PM
I expected him back after his suspension. Marciano said he's the best KO man he's ever seen at the end of the preseason.

PapaL
09-24-2012, 10:48 PM
Jones would have had to have been terrible, which he hasn't been. Graham hasn't been great on kickoffs, but he's not hurting the team on them either. We're kicking and punting situations are fine. Unless Hartmann can return kicks and punts he won't have a shot at being on this roster until next year.

You asked. I gave the obvious answer. I still think Hartmann is a better punter; regardless of how good Jones has been. We should have the best available player that we can afford on the roster. His kickoff's thru the back of the endzone helps hide deficiencies in coverage.

TheMatrix31
09-24-2012, 10:49 PM
Meh. Who cares. Jones has been fine. Cut Hartmann.

Texn4life
09-24-2012, 10:50 PM
You asked. I gave the obvious answer. I still think Hartmann is a better punter; regardless of how good Jones has been. We should have the best available player that we can afford on the roster. His kickoff's thru the back of the endzone helps hide deficiencies in coverage.

You also have to remember he's coming off of a major knee injury so no one has any idea what kind of punter he is right now. I trust the FO to make the best decision possible for this team, and if that's Jones then I'm sure they feel like he's better right now.

PapaL
09-24-2012, 10:57 PM
You also have to remember he's coming off of a major knee injury so no one has any idea what kind of punter he is right now. I trust the FO to make the best decision possible for this team, and if that's Jones then I'm sure they feel like he's better right now.

It was a torn ACL. If he were punting rugby style I'd be concerned.

Wasn't he one the preseason roster? I have no doubt he'd be our P in not for this ADHD situation. Regardless he won't be on our roster anytime soon.

Kaiser Toro
09-24-2012, 11:02 PM
16-0, just became more challenging.

Texn4life
09-24-2012, 11:03 PM
It was a torn ACL. If he were punting rugby style I'd be concerned.

Wasn't he one the preseason roster? I have no doubt he'd be our P in not for this ADHD situation. Regardless he won't be on our roster anytime soon.

An ACL tear is a major injury so I have my doubts he would have been 100 percent back to his old self so soon and been our punter to start the season. Jones would have been brought in anyway so the best man would have won the job. If I'm not mistaken Hartmann could have punted in the preseason some, but wasn't healthy enough to do so. The team made a decision and so far I'm satisfied with the results. He was decent last year, but he wasn't all world. I doubt he would have had any noticeable effect on the games if he was playing.

vupac1
09-24-2012, 11:31 PM
Really?? And I'm not trying to be offensive here. Are we really concerned whether or not we'll get a punter back???

Umm.. joke all you want, but punter is a very important position to a team as well. Lest you forget the end of the Matt Turk era... *shudders*

welsh texan
09-25-2012, 03:29 AM
Umm.. joke all you want, but punter is a very important position to a team as well. Lest you forget the end of the Matt Turk era... *shudders*

He's a great holder on Extra Points and Field Goals? :kitten:

I think we may have just seen the end of a good Punter tbh, Jones is ok but he isn't a revelation in the field position game, then again, we aren't going to be that reliant on field position given how dominant we look on both sides of the ball.

TheMatrix31
09-25-2012, 03:50 AM
Regardless of whether we're reliant on it or not, field position wins games. It IS important. I'd be clamoring for him to be coming back ASAP but Jones has been pretty good so far.

PapaL
09-25-2012, 06:27 AM
An ACL tear is a major injury so I have my doubts he would have been 100 percent back to his old self so soon and been our punter to start the season. Jones would have been brought in anyway so the best man would have won the job. If I'm not mistaken Hartmann could have punted in the preseason some, but wasn't healthy enough to do so. The team made a decision and so far I'm satisfied with the results. He was decent last year, but he wasn't all world. I doubt he would have had any noticeable effect on the games if he was playing.

It's a major injury for a RB yes. I tore my ACL and meniscus, had surgery in September, and I'm fine...and I don't have a professional medical staff like he would have. Then again I'm only the victim of a jogging accident but still this wasn't a MacGhee type tear.

plee1024
09-25-2012, 08:19 AM
You probably can't be cut while on suspension/injury so he'll probably just go IR the rest of the year...

CloakNNNdagger
09-25-2012, 08:28 AM
You probably can't be cut while on suspension/injury so he'll probably just go IR the rest of the year...

HE IS ALREADY A FREE AGENT NOW. He was released by the Texans on August 27 prior to the beginning of the season.

Rey
09-25-2012, 08:32 AM
Hartmann's career is over.

No one is going to carry him on their roster taking up a spot while he served that suspension. I thought he had a slim chance with his smaller suspension if he punted outstandingly...but with this long suspension? I highly doubt it.

welsh texan
09-25-2012, 09:33 AM
Hartmann's career is over.

No one is going to carry him on their roster taking up a spot while he served that suspension. I thought he had a slim chance with his smaller suspension if he punted outstandingly...but with this long suspension? I highly doubt it.

Is his suspension only served while on a teams roster? In that case, yeh, the guys career looks to be over. The best part of a season taking up a roster spot and salary cap on a punter isn't a great sales pitch for the guy.

ChampionTexan
09-25-2012, 09:50 AM
@caplannfl: Former #Texans P Brett Hartmann, who was already suspended 3 games by the NFL, has been suspended 8 more games, per source.

For what?

Given the events of this past off-season, probably for having the nickname "Hitman".

CloakNNNdagger
09-25-2012, 10:02 AM
Is his suspension only served while on a teams roster? In that case, yeh, the guys career looks to be over. The best part of a season taking up a roster spot and salary cap on a punter isn't a great sales pitch for the guy.


If a player is suspended BEFORE he is cut, he can serve out the suspension while he is unsigned. If he is suspended AFTER he is cut, then the suspension begins if/when he is signed. The initial 4 game suspension reduced to 3 games could have been served out while he was "unemployed," and that is why there was talk of possibly re-signing him after his suspension was served. The 8 game suspension appears to be an EXTENSION (not a new suspension) of the 3 month suspension, and therefore, he should be eligible to return anytime after that period of time if/when a team signs him.

Texn4life
09-25-2012, 10:31 AM
It's a major injury for a RB yes. I tore my ACL and meniscus, had surgery in September, and I'm fine...and I don't have a professional medical staff like he would have. Then again I'm only the victim of a jogging accident but still this wasn't a MacGhee type tear.

You're comparing your injury to a guy tearing up his knee and saying he should be fine to punt and kickoff with no problem? C'mon man! Let's put things in context here. If the Texans felt like he was a supreme talent they wouldn't have let him hit the market regardless of his suspension. I swear as fans we fall in love with the weirdest players. He isn't a Shane Lechler type of player. The guy was just ok.

Allstar
09-25-2012, 11:20 AM
Welp

PapaL
09-25-2012, 09:34 PM
You're comparing your injury to a guy tearing up his knee and saying he should be fine to punt and kickoff with no problem? C'mon man! Let's put things in context here. If the Texans felt like he was a supreme talent they wouldn't have let him hit the market regardless of his suspension. I swear as fans we fall in love with the weirdest players. He isn't a Shane Lechler type of player. The guy was just ok.

Umm yeah. Having personally gone through the same injury and then some yeah I can speak towards it.

Who knows what kinda player he will become?!? All I'm saying and Marciano said is he was the best punter we had. Period! And yeah they let him walk for obvious reasons. Good Lord man, no one is saying he's the second coming. Keep an eye on him. You don't have to get butthurt if you don't agree.

Wolf
09-25-2012, 10:07 PM
agree Papa.. I also remember Joe saying his 4.6 hangtime on kickoffs was unreal too

with that said. I hope things turn out for him somewhere. I have no ill feelings and will wait and see what the other 8 weeks were added on for

was he drug tested again before reinstatement?


I don't know. time will tell. but I do wish him the best where ever he goes

Allstar
09-25-2012, 11:28 PM
I half expect him to be at camp next year.

GP
09-26-2012, 12:15 AM
I half expect him to be at camp next year.

Yes. I think he'll get a shot here again.

If he still has the goods, it'd be smart to have him in camp in 2013.

The Pencil Neck
09-26-2012, 01:17 AM
I half expect him to be at camp next year.

Yep. Me, too.

Texn4life
09-26-2012, 01:45 AM
Umm yeah. Having personally gone through the same injury and then some yeah I can speak towards it.

Who knows what kinda player he will become?!? All I'm saying and Marciano said is he was the best punter we had. Period! And yeah they let him walk for obvious reasons. Good Lord man, no one is saying he's the second coming. Keep an eye on him. You don't have to get butthurt if you don't agree.

I personally don't care one way or another who punts for us as long as they get the job done. So far Jones has been just fine. Hartmann was decent last year, but I don't understand the love fest surrounding him. As far as the injury goes, the only thing I'm saying is your injury and you bouncing back is different than an athlete on the highest of levels bouncing back.

Either way, he's not on our team anymore so he's just like DeMeco, Mario, Winston, and everybody else. I wish him well, and if he happens to come back and get another opportunity I'll be hoping performs well. I won't go as far as Rey and say his career is over because he's young, but he has some major hurdles to clear first physically and otherwise.

Premier
09-26-2012, 10:36 AM
i feel like he'll be in camp next year, depending on his suspension status. He had a monster leg and could lay the wood on returners (i actually miss that about rackers too), plus he is the texans record holder for longest punt..