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Playoffs
03-02-2012, 03:17 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL investigation of Saints began in 2010 when allegations were made that Saints targeted QBs such as Brett Favre and Kurt Warner.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Discipline for the Saints could include fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL determined that former Saints DC Gregg Williams administered the program with knowledge of other defensive coaches.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Investigation reviewed 18,000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages. Commissioner Goodell will determine the discipline.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL security determined between 22 and 27 defensive players on the Saints, as well as at least one asst. coach, maintained a bounty program.

jaayteetx
03-02-2012, 03:32 PM
Buddy ball lives...

Naiirb
03-02-2012, 03:36 PM
The Saints are so screwed with the way the league and Goodell have been emphasizing player safety

The1ApplePie
03-02-2012, 03:42 PM
Favre took one of the worst beatings I have ever seen in the playoff game against the Saints. I thought there DC was just being a dick but bounties are a whole different breed of animal

HOU-TEX
03-02-2012, 03:57 PM
And their defense still sucked, go figure.

I'm still happy we never brought Gregg Williams here. Even if this had never happened. Over--rated *clap-clap, clap-clap-clap*

michaelm
03-02-2012, 03:59 PM
Buddy ball lives...

Made me think of Jerry Glanville (even though I don't know if Glanville ever had an actual bounty system).

Playoffs
03-02-2012, 04:30 PM
Schefter -- A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.*

Schefter on NFL Live: "In week of the NFC Championship Game, Jonathan Vilma put $10,000 on a table & said 'this goes to the guy that knocks out Brett Favre.'"



*NFL fined Patriots head coach Bill Belichick $500,000 (the maximum allowed by the league and the largest fine ever imposed on a coach in the league's 87-year history) for his role in the incident, fined the Patriots $250,000, and docked the team their original first-round selection in the 2008 NFL Draft.

Wolf
03-02-2012, 05:15 PM
Wow just heard about this

TimeKiller
03-02-2012, 05:37 PM
I'm just glad our team has the understanding that their salaries are enough money to knock a QB out.

False Start
03-02-2012, 05:44 PM
I already despised the Saint's. This right here puts them in Cowboys, and Titans territory as far as my hate list. :cutthroat:

Take their first round pick away.

Ole Miss Texan
03-02-2012, 05:52 PM
I already despised the Saint's. This right here puts them in Cowboys, and Titans territory as far as my hate list. :cutthroat:

Take their first round pick away.

I've warmed up to the Saints but the Packers and Giants will always be my favorite NFC teams.

I despise the Titans SO much that I actually find the Cowboys, their fans, and even the city of Dallas tolerable. I know that's crazy talk. lol - I can't stand the Titans and particularly Cortland Finnegan. Uggh

The Cush
03-02-2012, 05:57 PM
This isn't just hearsay as some of the Saints fans I have been reading want to believe. Greg Williams has come out and publicly apologized for this..

Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has publicly apologized, hours after the NFL announced that Williams had violated league rules by orchestrating a system of bounties during his time on the staff of the Saints.

“I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the ‘pay for performance’ program while I was with the Saints,” Williams said. “It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again.”

Williams isn’t making any type of effort to deny or minimize his role in this: He broke the rules, he knows he broke the rules, and he knows consequences are coming.

The question now is what kind of consequences will be coming. The Saints are sure to be disciplined by the league office, but if the Rams lose their defensive coordinator to a lengthy suspension, then two teams will be directly affected by this still unfolding story.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/02/gregg-williams-apologizes-for-terrible-mistake/

RazorOye
03-02-2012, 06:00 PM
Take their first round pick away.

we don't have one this year

looks like we won't have one next year, either

damn...

this offseason sucks. Epic defensive meltdown in the SF game. Brees's contract negotiations. Nicks's growing frustration with the lack of contract talks. Colston's impending FA. And now this.

I think I'm going to hibernate for a few months.

The Cush
03-02-2012, 06:03 PM
On Twitter..

Pat Kirwan ‏ @PatKirwanCBS

There could be lawsuits to follow by players injured in games against the Saints during the 2009-11 seasons.Lawers have been texting me
Retweeted by Adam Schefter

GP
03-02-2012, 06:57 PM
Oh. Snap.

This not good. For the Saints and their fans.

RazorOye
03-02-2012, 07:02 PM
Oh. Snap.

This not good. For the Saints and their fans.

It shouldn't be good for Williams, either.

he apparently did the same thing with the Redskins.

For me what separates it from Spygate is that I don't think the "every team does this" is true for spying w/ cameras, while players have come out and acknowledged that this kind of thing happens in lots of locker rooms.

Regardless, it's a ****ty tactic and I personally don't like it.

Sucks even more that the Saints will be the example.

This will probably be heavier than the Spygate penalties. And that blows.

But Williams should *not* be immune just because he's no longer in New Orleans.

This offseason can't end soon enough... and it just begun

sigh

Playoffs
03-02-2012, 07:09 PM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Player to @MarkMaske, talking about Gregg Williams: "If you took the star player out, he'd hook you up a little bit."

46m Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Williams has done it for years. RT @PostSports #Redskins had bounty system similar to one in #Saints investigation.

49m Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Washington Post reports Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under their former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
ESPN's John Clayton on #Saints: "I think you'll see multiple draft choices taken away ... Maybe 1st-rd pick next yr & another pick this yr."

False Start
03-02-2012, 07:17 PM
I've warmed up to the Saints but the Packers and Giants will always be my favorite NFC teams.

I despise the Titans SO much that I actually find the Cowboys, their fans, and even the city of Dallas tolerable. I know that's crazy talk. lol - I can't stand the Titans and particularly Cortland Finnegan. Uggh

I feel ya on the Titans hate, I'm right there with you. I don't think there is anything on the face of the Earth that could make me tolerate Cowboys fans, or anything to do with the city of Dallas though, lol. :bat:

XI CMURDER IX
03-02-2012, 07:26 PM
Doesn't it seem like the payments are a little on the small side? You are making 1+ million a year and you take only 1500 dollars to do something that can get you in a heap of trouble? They deserve to be punished for stupidity rather than actually hurting the players.

jaayteetx
03-02-2012, 07:27 PM
Take away their SB win, that would put a stop to this crap in the future.

Lucky
03-02-2012, 07:57 PM
Take away their SB win, that would put a stop to this crap in the future.
How would they do that? Go back in time?

SheTexan
03-02-2012, 08:30 PM
Nobody wanted to believe me when I said the Saints SB win was a fluke, that something did not smell right! I believed THEN, and I believe now that the NFL knew everything that was going on and predetermined the Saints SB win. THeir reward for the Katrina mess, and for NOT leaving the City of NO. NO, I do not have proof, just spectulation and MY opinion only!! That was the most messed up playoff run in the history of pro-football! The Saints were allowed to get away with whatever they wanted to get away with, and NOW the friggin NFL wants to say they knew nothing about it!! BS!! Goodall knew exactly what was going on, and he allowed it so the Saints could bully their way into the SB. I've watched pro-football for over 50 years, and I've learned to listen to my gut. I told anyone who would listen to me that the Saints would win the SB that year, simply because the NFL would make sure of it, one way or another!!

NOTE: This is an opinion board, and the above statement is JMO!!

RazorOye
03-02-2012, 08:37 PM
Nobody wanted to believe me when I said the Saints SB win was a fluke, that something did not smell right! I believed THEN, and I believe now that the NFL knew everything that was going on and predetermined the Saints SB win. THeir reward for the Katrina mess, and for NOT leaving the City of NO. NO, I do not have proof, just spectulation and MY opinion only!! That was the most messed up playoff run in the history of pro-football! The Saints were allowed to get away with whatever they wanted to get away with, and NOW the friggin NFL wants to say they knew nothing about it!! BS!! Goodall knew exactly what was going on, and he allowed it so the Saints could bully their way into the SB. I've watched pro-football for over 50 years, and I've learned to listen to my gut. I told anyone who would listen to me that the Saints would win the SB that year, simply because the NFL would make sure of it, one way or another!!


question for the conspiracy theorist, then:

why would the NFL target, investigate, and then punish the Saints now if they were meant to be media darlings? Why would the NFL - from top to bottom - work so hard to hand over the Lombardi to an organization only to villify them later and bring said Lombardi under scrutiny? Especially over a practice that's been acknowledged - even publicly - by other players (even those active)?

what's the angle? What's the motive? Who gains? What's gained?

Look, you don't like the Saints. I get it.

But this is some unhinged, absurd speculation.

NOTE: This is an opinion board, and the above statement is JMO!!

no need to worry, I dont think anyone would mistake anything in your post for facts

TexansBull
03-02-2012, 09:02 PM
question for the conspiracy theorist, then:

why would the NFL target, investigate, and then punish the Saints now if they were meant to be media darlings? Why would the NFL - from top to bottom - work so hard to hand over the Lombardi to an organization only to villify them later and bring said Lombardi under scrutiny? Especially over a practice that's been acknowledged - even publicly - by other players (even those active)?

what's the angle? What's the motive? Who gains? What's gained?

Look, you don't like the Saints. I get it.

But this is some unhinged, absurd speculation.



no need to worry, I dont think anyone would mistake anything in your post for facts

The rumors turn to whispers turn to chatter and the NFL had to get out in front of it and say "Whaaaaa?" Haven't you seens the X-Files? Read up on Roswell, Kennedy, and Breitbart. When too many people know there has to be a sacrificial lamb.

Oh, and what did the NFL have to gain from it all? Money. The perfect feel good Cinderella story.

Playoffs
03-02-2012, 09:20 PM
“I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the ‘pay for performance’ program while I was with the Saints,” [Greg] Williams, [former Saints defensive coordinator] said.

“It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again.”

jaayteetx
03-02-2012, 09:22 PM
How would they do that? Go back in time?

Yep, thats it, fire up the flux capacitor and the ole delorean, we got a lombardi trophy to get back!

TexansBull
03-02-2012, 09:26 PM
Seriously though, I would suspend each player that participated/ lied 3 games without pay.

Then suspend Williams for a season. Don't allow him to enter the facilities or have contact with the team. Fine him 250k.

Then suspend Sean Payton for half a season for knowing and make sure he doesn't have any contact with the team. He knew and he did nothing and he is the head coach of that team. Take two first round picks from the Saints. By this time the GM has been fired, but ban him for a year. Now the team is back to being in the basement.

Too severe? I don't think so. May not be severe enough. The rules are clear and you could easily paralyze/serious hurt a person. And Williams is a repeat offender, the Saints knew all the way to the owner, and it was never corrected.

I can't help but think the Titans did the same thing with Haynesworth and he carried it over to Tampa.

And to compare it to the Patriots, I think the Patriots got off easy. I think they cost Warner a Superbowl with Spygate. JMHO.

BetaV1
03-02-2012, 09:48 PM
Dirty team for a dirty city.

Vinny
03-03-2012, 12:07 AM
Williams should be kicked out of the league. They hammer the players for minor crap. This is selfish, mean-spirited, career ending stuff. This guy has no business in the NFL anymore and the league needs to protect itself by destroying his career at this level. Tell him, ok you have made your millions, go coach HS football if you have to coach. As I put it to one of my make-ready guys who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar in Mississippi. I said, Hey Pards, you can certainly work - but you can't work here...pack 'em up.

Dutchrudder
03-03-2012, 12:17 AM
Wow, that is some big news. I really hope they nail the coaches and the owner over this. I hope Gregg Williams' gets suspended for a year as well or banishment would be fine with me.

The one thing that I don't see in any articles regarding this is the source of the money. The story about Jonathan Vilma throwing down 10k on the table makes me think that money came from him, but the 1 and 1.5k rewards don't seem to be sourced. If that's coming from Williams, or the Saints organization in any way, then it's much worse. There is to be no compensation for players outside of what their contracts specify. That's essentially weaseling around the salary cap by paying rewards from team or coach's money.

Dutchrudder
03-03-2012, 12:27 AM
Guess what other team wore black and gold and intentionally hurt the opposing team to try to win a championship?


http://www.zuguide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/karate-kid-daniel-larusso-ralph-macchio-billy-zabka.jpg

Showtime100
03-03-2012, 12:43 AM
Williams should be kicked out of the league. They hammer the players for minor crap. This is selfish, mean-spirited, career ending stuff. This guy has no business in the NFL anymore and the league needs to protect itself by destroying his career at this level. Tell him, ok you have made your millions, go coach HS football if you have to coach. As I put it to one of my make-ready guys who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar in Mississippi. I said, Hey Pards, you can certainly work - but you can't work here...pack 'em up.

This.......

I wonder if he pulled this crap in Tennessee or Jacksonville.

Playoffs
03-03-2012, 01:13 AM
Loomis, Payton could face most trouble in Saints' bounty saga (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/03/02/mickey.loomis/index.html)

"When informed earlier this year of the new information, Mr. Benson advised league staff that he had directed his general manager, Mickey Loomis, to ensure that any bounty program be discontinued immediately. The evidence shows that Mr. Loomis did not carry out Mr. Benson's direction.

"Similarly, when the initial allegations where discussed with Mr. Loomis in 2010, he denied any knowledge of a bounty program and pledged that he would ensure that no such program was in place. There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices.''

In other words, Loomis looked the other way, and hoped the story would go away. He decided it was better to protect his team's coaches and players than to do his job and act in the best interests of the franchise and Benson. Maybe that won't wind up being judged to rise to the level of a firable offense in the Saints organziation, but to orchestrate the cover-up of a potentially embarrassing organizational misdeed will get your butt canned plenty in the corporate world.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/03/02/mickey.loomis/index.html

Showtime100
03-03-2012, 01:22 AM
Loomis, Payton could face most trouble in Saints' bounty saga (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/03/02/mickey.loomis/index.html)

"When informed earlier this year of the new information, Mr. Benson advised league staff that he had directed his general manager, Mickey Loomis, to ensure that any bounty program be discontinued immediately. The evidence shows that Mr. Loomis did not carry out Mr. Benson's direction.

"Similarly, when the initial allegations where discussed with Mr. Loomis in 2010, he denied any knowledge of a bounty program and pledged that he would ensure that no such program was in place. There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices.''

In other words, Loomis looked the other way, and hoped the story would go away. He decided it was better to protect his team's coaches and players than to do his job and act in the best interests of the franchise and Benson. Maybe that won't wind up being judged to rise to the level of a firable offense in the Saints organziation, but to orchestrate the cover-up of a potentially embarrassing organizational misdeed will get your butt canned plenty in the corporate world.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/03/02/mickey.loomis/index.html

Loomis is done based on that piece and probably was anyway. Not good to go against the Big Guy's orders, even in the football world.

It reminds me of the Bears-Packers back in the day. At least that was reserved for bad blood rivals.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r65/ShowtimeN15580/Sports/74448686_81bb3bca0e.jpg

SheTexan
03-03-2012, 11:38 AM
question for the conspiracy theorist, then:

why would the NFL target, investigate, and then punish the Saints now if they were meant to be media darlings? Why would the NFL - from top to bottom - work so hard to hand over the Lombardi to an organization only to villify them later and bring said Lombardi under scrutiny? Especially over a practice that's been acknowledged - even publicly - by other players (even those active)?

what's the angle? What's the motive? Who gains? What's gained?

Look, you don't like the Saints. I get it.

But this is some unhinged, absurd speculation.



no need to worry, I dont think anyone would mistake anything in your post for facts

Someone blew the whistle! They had no choice!

I don't care if anyone MISTAKES anything in my post as fact or not! FACTS are now becoming public!

FYI: The Saints are certainly not at the top of my DISLIKE list, like the Cow-pukes and Tinnheads. Some of the BEST fans I have been around over the years have been Saints fans, except for one ex member of this board from a few years back. Always been treated great when in NO at a game, and I respect Saints fans a bunch. I feel sorry for them! It's not their fault this crap has happened! It will tarnish their SB run forever, and that is sad for the fans.

Am I a HUGE Saints fan? NO, I am not, but, if they win I don't want to spit four letter words for a month!! I just SMH and move on! My animosity toward the Saints org goes WAY back to another long lost day and age in football. No need to go into it now.

IDEXAN
03-03-2012, 11:46 AM
I actually find the Cowboys, their fans, and even the city of Dallas tolerable.
Where you been, the Cowboys are now a Fort Worth, TX team ?

Dutchrudder
03-03-2012, 12:28 PM
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/bigtm.jpg

lol...

The Cush
03-03-2012, 12:37 PM
If the investigation is already over what's taking so long for the punishment! I want to see some loss of draft picks, suspensions, and major fines already

Wolf
03-03-2012, 12:48 PM
wasn't the Saints complaining about the blocking scheme of the Texans?

:thinking:

mussop
03-03-2012, 12:57 PM
:overreact:

What a bunch of overblown huey! The only thing wrong with what they did was the wording. Because we live in a politically correct society stuff like this gets overblown. BLA BLA BLA!!!!!! :overreact:

As long as the players weren't committing illegal hits or purposely trying to end someone's career with a cheap shot then this conversation is :overreact:.

Ask yourselves these questions.

When a WR is going over the middle and goes up for a catch, what is it you want to see the S do to him?

What is the safety trained to do?

Do you get excited when a MLB fills a hole and destroys a RB causing a fumble?

What are MLB's trained to do?

When DE rounds the corner untouched and the QB doesn't see him coming, what do you want the DE to do?

What are they trained to do?

Do you not think Cushing is trying to knock the snot out of everyone he tackles?

Every time he knocks a player out of the game should he be investigated?

Football is a violent sport. At a young age defensive players are taught to seek and destroy. In college players used to get stickers added to their helmets for big hits/plays. There is a certain mindset you have to play with on that side of the football to be effective.

THis whole subject is just is being taken out of context because of poorly chosen wording like cart off.

ChampionTexan
03-03-2012, 01:01 PM
Take away their SB win, that would put a stop to this crap in the future.

How would they do that? Go back in time?

Nobody can take away my championships and awards after they've already happened.

Signed,
Reggie Bush

(But seriously, there will be no vacating of the Saints Super Bowl Championship)

Playoffs
03-03-2012, 01:04 PM
This.......

I wonder if he pulled this crap in Tennessee or Jacksonville.There are player reports of it in Tennessee and Washington.

infantrycak
03-03-2012, 01:07 PM
THis whole subject is just is being taken out of context because of poorly chosen wording like cart off.

No it isn't. There is an explicit rule against bounties. It is the money not the wording which is important. It's ok to say "let's do our best to knock Brady out of the game." It isn't ok to say "let's do our best to knock Brady out of the game and the guy who does it gets $10k." Now I think the target of the most ire should be Williams as it appears this is a repetitive practice for him.

HJam72
03-03-2012, 01:08 PM
There are fan complaints of it not happening in Houston. :ahhaha:

Playoffs
03-03-2012, 01:20 PM
Now I think the target of the most ire should be Williams as it appears this is a repetitive practice for him.I agree, Williams and whoever else above him -- like GM Loomis -- that knowingly encouraged it/lied about it.

And I'm not sure I agree with Schefter/Clayton that this is/was worse than Spygate and should be punished more severely. This was paying for violence in a violent game -- Spygate was outright cheating.

But Williams, I think, should get hit hard -- suspension for more than one season.

Wolf
03-03-2012, 01:45 PM
Dungy: Gregg Williams’ Redskins may have started Peyton Manning’s neck issues

By the time the "BountyGate" scandal investigation is over, the only thing former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams might not have been blamed for is whatever gas prices happen to be at that time. And now that the bounty system he participated in while with the Saints can be traced back to his time as the Washington Redskins' defensive coordinator, facts that previously came to light are now going under the magnifying glass with a much harsher light cast on them.

Last September, Cindy Boren of the Washington Post wrote an article in which ex-Indianapolis Colts head coach Tony Dungy put the start of Peyton Manning's longstanding neck injuries and surgeries at a game between the Colts and the Redskins on October 22, 2006. On one play, Manning was given a "high-low" hit by defensive linemen Andre Carter and Phillip Daniels. Those types of hits, in which two defensive players aim for different halves of an offensive player's body, are among the most dangerous in football.

After the play, Manning lay on the ground for a brief time, got up, and as Dungy told Peter King of SI.com and NBC Sports last September, shook his right arm "as if trying to get the feeling back in it."

From Boren's story:

"Earlier in the game," Dungy said, "I'm outraged that there was a flag for roughing-the-passer on Dwight Freeney for just grazing the quarterback's helmet. So I'm yelling at the ref [Scott Green], 'Where's the flag! Where's the flag!' And I don't yell much, but I did then. So I didn't notice Peyton calling timeout and being shaken up. Peyton came to the sideline and said to [backup] Jim Sorgi, 'Jim, start warming up.' As the timeout went on, he said to us, 'I can stay in, but we need to run the ball here.' "

"Then we sort of forgot about it at halftime, and Peyton seemed fine," Dungy said. "He lit it up in the second half. He was on fire [throwing for 244 yards and three touchdowns]. But that's the year we started cutting back on his throws at practice. I'm not putting two plus two together. I just figure he's getting older and he needs some time off, he's made enough throws. But now, as I look back on it, there's no doubt in my mind that this was the start of his neck problems."

"The guy wouldn't let go of my head," Manning said after the game of Daniels, who was fined $5,000 by the NFL for the hit. "I looked at my helmet to see if my head was in it."

Daniels, now the Redskins' director of player development, responded thusly on his Twitter account:

Funny how Tony Dungy is tracing Manning's neck problem back 5 years ago. I still to this day think it was a good hit and only fined because of who the QB was. Andre pulling him forward and my arm across his chess [sic]going opposite direction and he falls to his knees causing my arm to go higher. Refs saw same thing so that's why there was no flag. Sometimes as a QB you have to know the end of the road and get down instead of trying to make a spectacular throw. I have never been a dirty player so him getting hurt in that game was not me trying to hurt him but rather him being in crazy position. I think he has thrown for a million yards since then and taken a few other hits since 2006. #ItsFootball #Redskins:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/dungy-gregg-williams-redskins-may-started-peyton-manning-163634407.html

mussop
03-03-2012, 01:50 PM
No it isn't. There is an explicit rule against bounties. It is the money not the wording which is important. It's ok to say "let's do our best to knock Brady out of the game." It isn't ok to say "let's do our best to knock Brady out of the game and the guy who does it gets $10k." Now I think the target of the most ire should be Williams as it appears this is a repetitive practice for him.

Thats fine! I have no problem with people being upset and wanting them punished because they broke a rule. Thats not what's going on right now. People are blowing this up like its some moral issue. I'm already sick of hearing how "disgusting" and "shame full" it is that their defensive players were trying to knock someone out. That is the mindset of every defensive player every time they are about to make a tackle. Well with an exception of a few. Buchanon anyone!

Wolf
03-03-2012, 01:50 PM
Bowen played strong safety in the NFL for seven years, and he's now one of the better Xs-and-Os analysts in the business. He played for Williams in 2004 and 2005, and wrote this in the Tribune about Williams' system, among other things:

The cash was kept stashed away at the team facility, in safe hands. After coaches reviewed Sunday's film, we paid it back out. Our accountability, governed by our accounting.

That's right. We got paid for big hits, clean hits by the rule book.

Money came in for more than watching a guy leave the field. We earned extra for interceptions, sacks and forced fumbles. If the till wasn't paid out, we just rolled it over.

Money jumped in the playoffs. A bigger stage equaled more coin. Instead of a few hundred dollars, now you got a thousand, maybe more, depending on the player.

That's the truth. I can't sugarcoat this. It was a system we all bought into.

I ate it up.

"If that meant playing through the whistle or going low on a tackle, I did it," Bowen went on to write, perhaps explaining the conflict between the way players feel -- the way they think they have to feel -- when they're in the game and after they retire.

"I don't regret any part of it. I can't. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change."

more from the link

Dutchrudder
03-03-2012, 01:58 PM
I agree, Williams and whoever else above him -- like GM Loomis -- that knowingly encouraged it/lied about it.

And I'm not sure I agree with Schefter/Clayton that this is/was worse than Spygate and should be punished more severely. This was paying for violence in a violent game -- Spygate was outright cheating.

But Williams, I think, should get hit hard -- suspension for more than one season.

This is cheating, plain and simple and it is much more substantial than the Spygate story. No team or anyone associated with that team can give compensation to players outside of their contracts for anything to do with NFL games (that includes players on the team). Everything must be accounted for in their contracts and paid through the system, anything outside of that is circumventing the rules and is liable for a big penalty. This is no different than giving them incentive bonuses for getting sacks.

There is nothing wrong with the team being aggressive. There is a huge problem with paying them under the table to do certain things in the game, whether they are penalized hits or not.

I hope Williams gets a big fine and a season suspension or even a lifetime ban from the NFL, same with the GM. It certainly would set a precedent to stop this kind of thing from happening in the future. I also hope that they have the names of every player who was rewarded money from this system and gives each of them a 2 game suspension. That ought to cover any ill-gotten money they won.

Edit: One other thing to add is that if the amounts of money are tallied up for any individuals, there is also a federal and state tax evasion issue for each player. I'm willing to bet they didn't report it on their returns. I suppose this would fall under gambling winnings since it was a pool, but the amounts of money definitely exceed the threshold for being taxed.

Showtime100
03-03-2012, 02:06 PM
Thats fine! I have no problem with people being upset and wanting them punished because they broke a rule. Thats not what's going on right now. People are blowing this up like its some moral issue. I'm already sick of hearing how "disgusting" and "shame full" it is that their defensive players were trying to knock someone out. That is the mindset of every defensive player every time they are about to make a tackle. Well with an exception of a few. Buchanon anyone!

Really, guy? Really?

I could have not bolded anything and addressed the entire post, but the bolded part was the highlight.

All due respect, and I'm about as un-PC as they come, I'm not sure you grasp what really seems to have gone down in New Orleans and elsewhere.

The Cush
03-03-2012, 02:24 PM
Thats fine! I have no problem with people being upset and wanting them punished because they broke a rule. Thats not what's going on right now. People are blowing this up like its some moral issue. I'm already sick of hearing how "disgusting" and "shame full" it is that their defensive players were trying to knock someone out. That is the mindset of every defensive player every time they are about to make a tackle. Well with an exception of a few. Buchanon anyone!

I've heard players talk about there is a difference between wanting to hurt people and wanting to injure people. The NFL has over 50,000 pages of documentation of what has going on, I'm sure they have several examples of Saints players who took a player out, got flagged in the process because of they did it in an illegal way (clipping, QB head hunting, illegal chop block, helmet to helmet, etc.), then came back to the locker room and got paid for it. That's where the issue is. There is nothing wrong with playing hard but if they have proof of players willing to commit penalties to take guys out then getting paid for it, then yea there is a moral issue about that and the Saints aren't denying what they did was wrong. Let me throw out this example and you tell me if this is "disgusting" or "shame full"...

MINNEAPOLIS -- Minnesota Vikings running back Adrian Peterson says he thinks the New Orleans Saints were purposely trying to injure his sprained left ankle in their game on Sunday.

Peterson had 10 carries for 60 yards against the Saints after missing the previous three weeks with a high ankle sprain. Peterson said after the game he expected the defensive players to target his ankle while trying to bring him down.

But he also says he took particular offence to one play when cornerback Jabari Greer twisted his ankle in a pile up.

Peterson says he confronted Greer because he thought that "it kind of got overboard."

Peterson said he didn't injure the ankle anymore in the 42-20 loss.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/nfl/2011/12/19/peterson_saints/

That's outside of the game and that's stuff they were paying players to do and that's just one example that was made public. The NFL has 3 years worth of investigating in which they found more than enough evidence to rule this type of stuff was going on and encouraged by players, coaches, and the general manager.

mussop
03-03-2012, 02:38 PM
I've heard players talk about there is a difference between wanting to hurt people and wanting to injure people. The NFL has over 50,000 pages of documentation of what has going on, I'm sure they have several examples of Saints players who took a player out, got flagged in the process because of they did it in an illegal way (clipping, QB head hunting, illegal chop block, helmet to helmet, etc.), then came back to the locker room and got paid for it. That's where the issue is. There is nothing wrong with playing hard but if they have proof of players willing to commit penalties to take guys out then getting paid for it, then yea there is a moral issue about that and the Saints aren't denying what they did was wrong. Let me throw out this example and you tell me if this is "disgusting" or "shame full"...


http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/nfl/2011/12/19/peterson_saints/

That's outside of the game and that's stuff they were paying players to do and that's just one example that was made public. The NFL has 3 years worth of investigating in which they found more than enough evidence to rule this type of stuff was going on and encouraged by players, coaches, and the general manager.

Like I said in my first post.

As long as the players weren't committing illegal hits or purposely trying to end someone's career with a cheap shot then this conversation is :overreact:

The Cush
03-03-2012, 02:46 PM
Like I said in my first post.

As long as the players weren't committing illegal hits or purposely trying to end someone's career with a cheap shot then this conversation is :overreact:

Well it seems pretty apparent that's what the NFL found them guilty of among other things so I don't really see how you keep pushing this is a major overreaction by everyone including the NFL themselves, who has spent 3 years looking into the matter.

Showtime100
03-03-2012, 02:47 PM
Like I said in my first post.

As long as the players weren't committing illegal hits or purposely trying to end someone's career with a cheap shot then this conversation is :overreact:

Problem. The players, according to the stories, were being paid to hurt other players.

Also, it is illegal to throw money down on the table and reward players for "knocking out" and "causing players to be carted off the field." I can see how a player would then resort to a cheap shot. Yes? Hell, it's illegal for a player to accept cash for an interception.

No overreaction here as far as I can see.

Playoffs
03-03-2012, 06:47 PM
Wow, ABC World News is about to run this story.

b0ng
03-03-2012, 07:17 PM
I don't see what the big deal is. To paraphrase a line from the great movie Snatch:

"It's an unlicensed boxing match Tommy, it's not a tickling competition. These lads are out there to hurt each other."

If this was a story coming out of Deer Park high school, I'd see what the big issue is, but these are beefy roided out dudes that break each others necks for the entertainment of millions of people. If it takes an authority figure to start handing out "bonuses" for "exemplary performance" that's what it is. The fact that the bonus is called a bounty and the exemplary performance is usually in the form of a dirty hit does not bother me much. Hell there are people who still remember fondly Buddy Ryan who most assuredly used the same sort of tactics in his locker rooms.

thetexanator
03-03-2012, 08:24 PM
am i the only one not having a problem with this? were they going at the knees? otherwise i thought the point was to knock the qb out?

srrono
03-04-2012, 08:04 AM
How far will the NFL go back and punish franchises if proof is found of this?
Could all these franchises lose a 1st round pick? That would move the Texans pick up lol.
Greg Williams
1997-2000 Tennessee Oilers/Titans (DC)
2001-2003 Buffalo Bills (HC)
2004-2007 Washington Redskins (DC/Asst. HC)
2008 Jacksonville Jaguars (DC)
2009-2011 New Orleans Saints (DC)

srrono
03-04-2012, 10:58 AM
am i the only one not having a problem with this? were they going at the knees? otherwise i thought the point was to knock the qb out?


#1 Salary cap its unreporter income

#2 its wrong to play with Malicious Intent. Yes its a violent sport but as you and I and everyone on this board has seen. If a player is injured, players will go down on one knee and have a vigil on the field. That in my mind tells me that these guys dont want to injure each other because its thier livelihood and by the Grace of God it could be themselfs on the ground.

Playoffs
03-04-2012, 11:45 AM
How far will the NFL go back and punish franchises if proof is found of this?
Could all these franchises lose a 1st round pick? That would move the Texans pick up lol.
Greg Williams
1997-2000 Tennessee Oilers/Titans (DC)
2001-2003 Buffalo Bills (HC)
2004-2007 Washington Redskins (DC/Asst. HC)
2008 Jacksonville Jaguars (DC)
2009-2011 New Orleans Saints (DC)Bills bounty system under former head coach Williams alleged (http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/article747663.ece)

NFL will investigate claims that Redskins had a bounty program for big hits under defensive coordinator Gregg Williams (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/nfl-will-investigate-claims-that-redskins-had-a-bounty-program-for-big-hits-under-defensive-coordinator-gregg-williams/2012/03/03/gIQAz34poR_blog.html)

The pervasiveness of Williams' bounty system may actually mitigate the punishment the Saints organization receives, methinks. I don't see the NFL yanking #1 picks from all of these teams?

ChampionTexan
03-04-2012, 12:22 PM
Like so many other instances we've seen over the last few years, the initial coverup and failure to end the program - despite being told to - will likely increase the severity of the penalties.

When Saints owner Tom Benson directed general manager Mickey Loomis to make sure any bounty program ended, “the evidence showed that Mr. Loomis did not carry out Mr. Benson’s directions,’’ according to the NFL’s findings.
So there is evidence of Loomis, Payton, and Williams - and probably more than a few players - all being less than truthful to NFL investigators.
Asked how much worse the lying makes this for the Saints, the NFL source said, “Very. From a discipline point of view, it might be the worst [scandal] in decades.’’

LINK (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2012/03/04/in_more_ways_than_one_these_saints_were_sinners/?page=1)

Playoffs
03-04-2012, 01:16 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @dbritton1: Can NO lose picks for the 2012 draft? ... Would be a major upset if they didn't.

3h Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @rwj64: For Saints? Don't you think Redskins and Bills will be less severe? ... I'd expect it to be far less severe, if punished at all.

3h Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @sbstl_mo: Are we to believe only Greg Williams' teams did this? Per Jimmy Johnson this was common. ... Maybe. But Saints were caught.

3h Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @haycameronhay: Can you see loss of draft picks? ... Absolutely. And suspensions. And fines. Lots of discipline coming.

3h Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @SeanGlennon: On top of everything, might not Saints/Redskins/Bills bounty systems violate cap rules? ... Cap. IRS. Lots of broken rules.

Playoffs
03-04-2012, 08:01 PM
Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL Security is recalling Gregg Williams to NYC for more Bounty-gate talk Monday.

SheTexan
03-05-2012, 09:25 AM
Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL Security is recalling Gregg Williams to NYC for more Bounty-gate talk Monday.


Dude needs to become a history mark in the NFL!! Here today, gone tomorrow!! Only punishment worth anything for this man is permanent suspension!! JMO!!

TexanSam
03-05-2012, 09:58 AM
Dude needs to become a history mark in the NFL!! Here today, gone tomorrow!! Only punishment worth anything for this man is permanent suspension!! JMO!!

I agree. Even if other teams have been doing it, the Saints got caught. Make an example of them and show them what the consequences are of pulling **** like this.

Vinny
03-05-2012, 10:41 AM
I agree. Even if other teams have been doing it, the Saints got caught. Make an example of them and show them what the consequences are of pulling **** like this.If the league doesn't show a strong, strong message here, then their big hit fine program is a joke of immense proportions (I already think most of it is a joke anyway). They need to show the Coaches and players that you will get kicked out of the league if you do this kind of stuff...starting asap, with Williams getting the boot. I've seen guys fined for what amounts to an accidental head to head when a player lowers his helmet at the last second....all in the name of player safety.

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 11:30 AM
If the league doesn't show a strong, strong message here, then their big hit fine program is a joke of immense proportions (I already think most of it is a joke anyway). They need to show the Coaches and players that you will get kicked out of the league if you do this kind of stuff...starting asap, with Williams getting the boot.

the outrage over this - generally speaking (not necessarily directed at you, V) seems a little overwrought in some places, imo. Florio, especially, has lost his mind covering this and each new "article" reaches further into the speculatively absurd.

I'm not defending what the Saints did. And I'm not advocating they escape disciplinary action. But if Goodell wants to adopt some sort of self-righteous posture on this issue, it's going to be a bit hollow, I think. If this was such a violation of player safety concerns, he had opportunities prior to this to do something.

I think that this is more about PR than player safety. I think Goodell is a mixed bag, rhetorically and policy-wise, when it comes to player safety. Some things he advocates seem to support it while others are a bit of a headscratcher.

The 18 game season, for example, might make more money but that profitability seems to take precedence over player safety.

Just like I think, in this instance, his rep and the league's image (and illusion of player safety) is more important than taking a strong stand against this policy.

This issue came to a bit of a head years ago with Suggs, for example, and it happens in plenty of locker rooms. And I refuse to believe that someone like Goodell, in all of his years, wouldn't be aware that something like this was going on in a lot of locker rooms. This isn't new. The scheme's 'discovery' wasn't really revelatory. And now, with the revelation that it is happening in other locker rooms (or has), what will he do? How expansive would the punishment be?

I think the Saints will get hammered and that's it (well, Williams, too). Then he can point to this event, while ignoring all others, and claim he's doing something. He's being severe and proactive. And I don't buy that for one second.

I don't have a high opinion of Goodell as commissioner to begin with, so my perspective is going to be colored to begin with. But I'd be skeptical of any holier-than-thou approach from him.

And I'll continue to view any of his "player safety above ALL!" rhetoric with a sidelong glance and a bit of suspicion.

Dread-Head
03-05-2012, 11:35 AM
Favre took one of the worst beatings I have ever seen in the playoff game against the Saints. I thought there DC was just being a dick but bounties are a whole different breed of animal


There were MAD late hits in that game and they kept blind siding him at the knees. It was one of the most deplorable games of football I've ever witnessed and I'm not even a FAN of Bret Favre. To be honest I think the mistake these geniuses/genii made was breaking the 11th commandment:

11. Thou shalt not get caught.

SheTexan
03-05-2012, 11:42 AM
Maybe the NFL needs to take next years SB away from New Orleans. Give it to someone else. Just a thought.

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 01:06 PM
Adam Schefter -- fallout will be huge ... bigger than Patriots ... considerable fines ... suspensions ... loss of draft picks ... unprecedented penalties handed out.

Difference -- NFL came in, inquired, sent our warning, Saints said it wasn't happening when it was(coverup), financial incentives to injure players (Farve)

League went to Loomis, warned him, Loomis said it would not go on -- and it continued.

Schefter's educated guess: Payton suspension, multiple picks this year, other

Bills/Titans/Redskins weren't warned, didn't cover up

Why now? League investigated the targeting of Farve but couldn't come up with enough -- but someone came forward ~3 months ago and blew it wide open.

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 01:13 PM
Maybe the NFL needs to take next years SB away from New Orleans. Give it to someone else. Just a thought.

Yeah, I'm all for that. Move it about 4 hours down I-10 so the Texans can get homefield advantage :D

SheTexan
03-05-2012, 01:19 PM
Yeah, I'm all for that. Move it about 4 hours down I-10 so the Texans can get homefield advantage :D

Wouldn't that be great!! Won't happen, but, we can dream!

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 01:22 PM
Wouldn't that be great!! Won't happen, but, we can dream!

That's OK, the Superdome is close enough for me. Hopefully they play a team like the Vikings, 49ers or Seahawks who won't travel well to NO.

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 01:44 PM
One guy who figures into this (and potentially more shady doings with regard to the Saints) hasn't been mentioned yet - Mike Ornstein.

If you followed the Reggie Bush saga (which some of you might have), you'd recognize the name. And someone at saintsreport linked to this deadspin article this morning:

Meet The Convicted Felon Who Defrauded The NFL, Made Reggie Bush Ineligible, And Funded The Saints’ Bounty Program (http://deadspin.com/5890499/)

Michael Ornstein is the name to know. As first reported by CBS's Mike Freeman, Ornstein—a close friend and confidant of Sean Payton—Ornstein on at least four occasions pledged his own money to the Saints' defense's bounty fund. In 2009, $10,000 toward knocking an opposing quarterback out of the game. In 2011, two separate contributions to targeting the quarterback. And on at least one other occasion, Ornstein pledged his money in an email to Payton, which spelled out the details of the bounty program.

The NFL knows this because it has that email, a highly incriminating paper trail that makes it impossible for Payton to argue his innocence, or for the Saints to claim the bounty never left the locker room. It might be the single most damaging piece of evidence, based solely on Ornstein's history.

Once upon a time, Ornstein was an NFL executive in charge of marketing. That was until he attempted to defraud the league out of $350,000. Ornstein conspired to submit fraudulent invoices to Los Angeles based manufacturers, pocketing the money and never providing the NFL with the merchandise they were led to believe they had purchased. He pleaded guilty to mail fraud, and served four months home confinement, five years of probation, and paid the NFL $160,000 in restitution.

Ornstein resurfaced a decade later, as the marketing agent who represented Reggie Bush when he turned pro. It soon came out that Ornstein had been a central figure in providing Bush with improper benefits while at USC, as Ornstein competed with eventual whistleblower Lloyd Lake for Bush's services.

...

Ornstein cooperated with investigators and was sentenced to eight months in prison. He began serving his time last March; it's not clear if he was still incarcerated when he was emailing Sean Payton to fund the bounty.

Mike Ornstein, never a Saints employee but exactly the sort of hanger-on you expect attached to a shady college program, was given an all-access pass in New Orleans for six seasons.

a bit more at the link

what a slimeball

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 02:02 PM
One guy who figures into this (and potentially more shady doings with regard to the Saints) hasn't been mentioned yet - Mike Ornstein....
what a slimeballhttp://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/images/articles/SBJ201009132901-7.jpg

And the league hasn't done anything about players/coaches consorting with this guy?

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 02:12 PM
With the above info about Saints associations with this Ornstein slimeball,

Put me firmly in the camp of supporting the NFL coming down hard on the Saints.

Showtime100
03-05-2012, 02:14 PM
the outrage over this - generally speaking (not necessarily directed at you, V) seems a little overwrought in some places, imo. Florio, especially, has lost his mind covering this and each new "article" reaches further into the speculatively absurd.

I'm not defending what the Saints did. And I'm not advocating they escape disciplinary action. But if Goodell wants to adopt some sort of self-righteous posture on this issue, it's going to be a bit hollow, I think. If this was such a violation of player safety concerns, he had opportunities prior to this to do something.

I think that this is more about PR than player safety. I think Goodell is a mixed bag, rhetorically and policy-wise, when it comes to player safety. Some things he advocates seem to support it while others are a bit of a headscratcher.

The 18 game season, for example, might make more money but that profitability seems to take precedence over player safety.

Just like I think, in this instance, his rep and the league's image (and illusion of player safety) is more important than taking a strong stand against this policy.

And I'll continue to view any of his "player safety above ALL!" rhetoric with a sidelong glance and a bit of suspicion.

I believe he has. We've seen a lot of players get fined over what appears to be simply hard hits. Flags thrown for tick-tack hits and fines for the same.

My point is they are fining players after the fact after hits that didn't even draw a flag at the time, all in the name of making the game safer. All in the name of making a clean image for others to see.

Here you have a bounty system and the cover-up exposed. Goodell will bring the hammer down in this atmosphere the NFL has embraced and I don't see how that would make him a hypocrite.

Having said all that, the wussification of the NFL is making me worry.

GP
03-05-2012, 02:22 PM
It shouldn't be good for Williams, either.

he apparently did the same thing with the Redskins.

For me what separates it from Spygate is that I don't think the "every team does this" is true for spying w/ cameras, while players have come out and acknowledged that this kind of thing happens in lots of locker rooms.

Regardless, it's a ****ty tactic and I personally don't like it.

Sucks even more that the Saints will be the example.

This will probably be heavier than the Spygate penalties. And that blows.

But Williams should *not* be immune just because he's no longer in New Orleans.

This offseason can't end soon enough... and it just begun

sigh

It hurts you guys on another level, too: It will cause opposing teams, teams you guys faced the past few years and still face regularly, to come after Brees VERY hard in future games against the Saints. There will be a payback mentality, such as when a pitcher throws high and inside and pegs the batter...there's payback coming, more than likely, when the tables are turned.

That SUCKS for Brees. It puts him in the crosshairs now.

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Player to @MarkMaske, talking about Gregg Williams: "If you took the star player out, he'd hook you up a little bit."

46m Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Williams has done it for years. RT @PostSports #Redskins had bounty system similar to one in #Saints investigation.

49m Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Washington Post reports Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under their former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
ESPN's John Clayton on #Saints: "I think you'll see multiple draft choices taken away ... Maybe 1st-rd pick next yr & another pick this yr."

Ouch.

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 02:23 PM
Here you have a bounty system and the cover-up exposed. Goodell will bring the hammer down in this atmosphere the NFL has embraced and I don't see how that would make him a hypocrite.

But I didn't accuse him of hypocrisy.

The part you bolded, I said his claims would strike me as somewhat hollow - not hypocritical.

I think that if this was a priority issue, it would've been dealt with before. There were opportunities - certainly nowhere as blatant as this one. And there have been other players and other organizations that have been implicated, to some degree.

Heck, even the 'warning' after a player came forward and then recanted his story with regard to the Saints should've been enough - if you want to argue earlier references to such practices weren't.

But one team was issued a warning.

I mean, the Saints front office and coaching staff look like bumbling fools - and justifiably so. So punish them - I never said otherwise.

I just find it hard to buy that this was such a critical concern that so little had been done, and attention paid prior to this. That's why I said 'hollow'

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 02:31 PM
It hurts you guys on another level, too: It will cause opposing teams, teams you guys faced the past few years and still face regularly, to come after Brees VERY hard in future games against the Saints. There will be a payback mentality, such as when a pitcher throws high and inside and pegs the batter...there's payback coming, more than likely, when the tables are turned.

That SUCKS for Brees. It puts him in the crosshairs now.

meh... I get where you're coming from, but I don't know. That really doesn't bother me that much, nor am I really worried about it.

I mean, they come hard after Brees every game. And they have trouble getting to him because of his pocket awareness and our Oline.

Losing Nicks is going to suck monumentally, though, in this regard.

But I don't worry about payback driving this - what are teams going to be vengeful about? What did we do - even considering the bounty - that would lead to such reprisal?

Harper cheap shotted Steve Smith last year - it was a stupid, bonehead move. he got fined. That was the stupidest thing I can recall defensively of a player doing something outside of the lines.

The hits on Favre in the NFCCG - one was not flagged and should have been. If the Vikes wanted payback, they got there opportunity in the next game they played. But they couldn't get to Brees.

I'd think that the season opener following their OT loss to NO would be more motivation than an NFL investigation a couple of years after that game.

Maybe you're right, but I just don't see it. We've got enough to worry about, so maybe it's that I'm much less worried about this then other things. I mean, karma can be a ***** but I don't see defensive mentalities vs. Brees changing much more than they have.

It's a kill-the-QB league. Brees is a marked man no matter what. Moreso than most QBs because of what he means to our offense.

I just don't know that there's a defender whose going to seek to light him up with an illegal hit just because his defensive teammates had bounties for hits a couple of years ago.

Showtime100
03-05-2012, 02:33 PM
But I didn't accuse him of hypocrisy.

The part you bolded, I said his claims would strike me as somewhat hollow - not hypocritical.

I think that if this was a priority issue, it would've been dealt with before. There were opportunities - certainly nowhere as blatant as this one. And there have been other players and other organizations that have been implicated, to some degree.

Heck, even the 'warning' after a player came forward and then recanted his story with regard to the Saints should've been enough - if you want to argue earlier references to such practices weren't.

But one team was issued a warning.

I mean, the Saints front office and coaching staff look like bumbling fools - and justifiably so. So punish them - I never said otherwise.

I just find it hard to buy that this was such a critical concern that so little had been done, and attention paid prior to this. That's why I said 'hollow'

Cool. Maybe splitting hairs, but I certainly don't mean to put words in your mouth. I think it is a priority issue and would have been harshly dealt with had they known is was happening today, but I guess they didn't for whatever reason.

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 02:38 PM
I think it is a priority issue and would have been harshly dealt with had they known is was happening today

perhaps. It is a different league even then when Suggs made those bounty comments he was warned about a few seasons ago.

The idiocy of the whole thing is that even had they come out harder back then, I don't see Williams backing off a practice that he'd had going for years and probably felt contributed to his reputation/success as a defensive coordinator. I imagine he'd be loathe to give that up. And they/he still would've done it.

So it might not have changed a thing in that regard.

But Goodell? Maybe it's just because I don't care for him very much as a commissioner that I'm skeptical of a lot that he claims.

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Bottom line, the Saints had a chance to fix this on their own, and the GM ignored that. That's why they will get hit hard. There's no defending it, any punishment, no matter how severe, will be warranted for simply making this a huge issue for the NFL to deal with. If they had complied with the original warning and ended the system, we likely wouldn't be hearing about it today. Instead, the Saints organization gave the NFL a PR issue and they have to handle it properly by making an example of that team. I'm sure once the punishment is handed down, other teams that may have had this sort of system in place will remove it for future seasons. If they don't, they will likely get a similar punishment if they get caught.

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 03:13 PM
There's no defending it

I haven't.

Thorn
03-05-2012, 03:22 PM
The real losers in this debacle are the Saints fans.

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 03:25 PM
The real losers in this debacle are the Saints fans.

hey! Who you callin' a loser?

:foottap:

;)

RazorOye
03-05-2012, 04:43 PM
someone just linked this over at SR - from the Times Picayune:

Saints deny Loomis cover up or that he ignored Benson's orders (http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/03/new_orleans_saints_chat_at_11_2.html)

I think it bears repeating that the cover up is the one piece of this the Saints vigorously deny - or, more accurately, the club denies what the NFL said Loomis did. In particular, the Saints have repeatedly told me it is not true Loomis ignored a direct order from Benson that this system be disbanded. Payton has been quiet; it's widely known Payton gives his DC wide latitude. Now there isn't any question who the boss is around the Saints during football season - it's Payton - and he is the head coach regardless so he will presumably take a hit, too. But, again, while the Saints haven't spent time knocking the essence of the report they have tried to knock down the cover up. Keep in mind, too, I'm just reporting to you what both sides said at this point. It's not yet clear who is right on this part of the story.

between this and speculation that Loomis and Payton will miss no time to them missing some games to them missing an entire season to going to jail, not sure what to think

Showtime100
03-05-2012, 04:50 PM
The real losers in this debacle are the Saints fans.

No kidding on that one. We as fans don't just pay at the gate and sports stores. I feel bad for the "cool" Saints fans. Hang in there Razor.

....and by "cool" I don't mean the one on their board that posted a thread titled, "The Grinch who stole our dynasty"

Dynasty??????????? :thinking:

gtexan02
03-06-2012, 05:35 PM
Move the Saints to San Antonio. Done :)

badboy
03-06-2012, 05:51 PM
What would a player get if found he had a list of players he intentionally tried to hurt? Probably several games suspension without pay. SHould New Orleans be "fined" the equivolent of several games?

Texecutioner
03-06-2012, 06:00 PM
On Twitter..

Pat Kirwan ‏ @PatKirwanCBS

There could be lawsuits to follow by players injured in games against the Saints during the 2009-11 seasons.Lawers have been texting me
Retweeted by Adam Schefter




Anyone remember all of those blatant dirty hits after the whitle on Brett Farve in that NFC championship game two seasons ago. That altered the offense a ton for the Vikings by the mid 2nd half, and to think that the DC was paying players bonuses for doing stuff like that is reprehensible in my eyes. Hell, that arguably changed the status of the SB champion that year when you consider how many times that defense was dishing out dirty blows like that and how it can really alter how a QB plays. Anyone will tell you that if you start hitting the crap out of a QB, you'll make him get rid of the ball a lot faster and make that QB a lot more prone to mistakes. I remember watching that game saying "WOW" after so many late hits on Favre and being pretty amazed that he even finished that game. To think that the coach was paying bonuses for that?? Plus, their was some story saying that Jonathan Vilma laid out 10,000 in cash on the table and offered it to anyone who could put Favre out of the game.

Sorry, but I hope the Saints get every ounce of punishment that exists. Injuring players hurts their contracts because they can get cut if they have a bad season due to that, it could end their careers, and in this case it very well arguably altered the results of who went and won the SB in my eyes after seeing how many dirty hits they dished out in a championship game.

Double Barrel
03-06-2012, 06:32 PM
Funny thing about that game, Tex...

NFL Network pulls re-air of Vikings-Saints NFC title game (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/03/nfl-network-pulls-re-air-of-vikings-saints-nfc-championship-game/1)

:hmmm:

Texecutioner
03-06-2012, 07:01 PM
Funny thing about that game, Tex...

NFL Network pulls re-air of Vikings-Saints NFC title game (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/03/nfl-network-pulls-re-air-of-vikings-saints-nfc-championship-game/1)

:hmmm:

Man, I remember watching that game DB, thinking man this is ridiculous at how the Saints are playing and how many hits they kept getting away with. I also remember watching Favre throwing balls out of bounds and further off of target when he was rushing passes because of the pressure. You get hit that many times especially after the whistle, it's going to change the way a QB plays. To think that the coaching staff was handing out bonuses to try and injure the guy instead of just trying to make plays for a game that went into over time despite that indicates to me that there is a very strong chance that the results of that season changed as a result when you consider how close that game was and how many plays changed that game. That's history right there, and it could have made things different to where the Vikings won that game and go on to win a SB or even had them winning and the Colts getting another SB. It's obviously not something you could say for sure one way or the other, but that many dirty hits on a QB where he gets beat up as much as Favre did changes things a lot and really effects a QB's play in a game like that. It sucks that we'll never know either way.

The Cush
03-06-2012, 07:08 PM
Speaking of that game...

Saints defender after Favre injury: “Pay me my money!”
Posted by Mike Florio on March 6, 2012, 4:29 PM EST
s100124_saints1wpg-vertical Getty Images

In a must-read account of the Saints’ three-season bounty system, Peter King of Sports Illustrated shares plenty of intriguing and compelling details. MDS already has highlighted portions of the article relating to Roger Goodell’s reaction to the situation and linebacker Scott Fujita’s position on the subject. But there’s even more good stuff.

During the 2009 NFC title game, which both sparked the league’s investigation and served as the most obvious example of assault and battery of an opposing quarterback, King writes that, after an unflagged high-low hit on Brett Favre resulted in a sprained ankle, an unnamed Saints defender was heard saying on an on-field microphone, “Pay me my money!”

(We know what you’re thinking: The league killed Monday’s re-air of the game on NFL Network because the comment could be heard during the broadcast. Apparently, however, it was a different microphone.)

King also explains that defensive end Anthony Hargrove can be heard saying, “Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!”

Both statements would be strong circumstantial proof of the existence of a bounty program, if the NFL hadn’t already found that the bounty program existed. And King spells out the weekly routine that unfolded during the 2009 season, defensive coordinator Gregg Williams’ first in New Orleans.

On Saturday night, Williams handed out in a defensive meeting envelopes containing payments for big plays and inflicted injuries from the prior Sunday. And the defenders would then chant, “Give it back! Give it back! Give it back!” Many did, which caused the pile of available cash to keep growing.

The bounty system continued even after, as King explains in the Tuesday edition of his MMQB column, former Vikings coach Brad Childress sent to the league video of eight different hits on Favre from that game, the Vikings officially alleged that the Saints had put a bounty on Favre, and Williams, linebackers coach Joe Vitt, and Hargrove denied (i.e., lied about) its existence to investigators. For Williams, the denials (i.e., lies) continued through the middle of February 2012, when Williams was confronted with evidence implicating him as the “ringleader.” Williams, per King, once again tried to deny it, but Williams then met with Goodell to confess.

Williams was back in New York on Monday, possibly to confess yet again (after possibly denying/lying yet again) his involvement in bounty systems in other cities.

King thinks the punishment issued to the Saints and various individuals will “likely dwarf” the penalties meted out for Spygate. The more we learn about the situation, the less surprising that will be.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/06/saints-defender-after-favre-injury-pay-me-my-money/

Texecutioner
03-06-2012, 07:14 PM
Speaking of that game...



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/06/saints-defender-after-favre-injury-pay-me-my-money/

I don't think that the Saints win that game if those multiple blatant hits weren't taking place one after another. I remember that game very well, and it definitely disrupted the Vikings offense big time. I've always had a lot of respect for these last few Saints teams to and rooted for them quite a bit, so this is a shame. I don't view their SB the same anymore considering that they were trying to hurt players and intentionally trying to injure people. It made a difference in the post season results.

Playoffs
03-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Saints owner Benson and HC Payton meeting with Goodell today.

thunderkyss
03-18-2012, 07:22 AM
I'm still happy we never brought Gregg Williams here. Even if this had never happened. Over--rated *clap-clap, clap-clap-clap*
I never had an opinion on Greg Williams one way or the other. But, I felt the Texans had reason not to bring him in. It might have been the dollars & what that says about a person.... his convoluted self worth. But maybe they just didn't gell, maybe he just wasn't the kind of guy that Bob wanted in his organization; an ends justifies the means guy......


who knows.

Take away their SB win, that would put a stop to this crap in the future.


I was shocked, surprised, & left a little bit in awe when Goddell dropped sanctions on the 'skins & the Cowboys. I didn't think he had it in him to hit his "bosses" where it hurt.

I'd like to see more of this, draft picks, salary caps....... hit them where it hurt.

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 12:47 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Sean Payton suspended one year. Mickey Loomis 8 game and $500,000 fine. Saints fined $500,000 and a second round pick in 2012 and 2013.

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Rams DC Gregg Williams suspended indefinitely but will miss at least 2012 season for his role with Saints bounty program

Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Saints asst head coach/LB coach Joe Vitt also gets 6 game suspension

Stemp
03-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Sean Payton suspended one year. Mickey Loomis 8 game and $500,000 fine. Saints fined $500,000 and a second round pick in 2012 and 2013.

So he's basically unemployed this year? Can he participate in the draft?

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 12:57 PM
So he's basically unemployed this year? Can he participate in the draft?Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
So Sean Payton suspended one year, effective April 1...

I bet he cannot participate in the April 26 draft.

The Cush
03-21-2012, 12:57 PM
When a player gets suspended they can still practice throughout the week but can't come to the stadium on game day correct? So what does that mean for suspending a GM? If it goes by the same rules, the days leading up to the game seems to be the most crucial part for the GM (scouting, workouts, etc.).

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 12:59 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Sean Payton suspended one year. Mickey Loomis 8 game and $500,000 fine. Saints fined $500,000 and a second round pick in 2012 and 2013.
Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Rams DC Gregg Williams suspended indefinitely but will miss at least 2012 season for his role with Saints bounty program
Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Saints asst head coach/LB coach Joe Vitt also gets 6 game suspension, $100,000 fine

Massive penalties, imo. Wow.

ChampionTexan
03-21-2012, 01:02 PM
When a player gets suspended they can still practice throughout the week but can't come to the stadium on game day correct?

Nope - when a player is suspended, he has to be away from the team for the duration of the suspension.

For example, while Cushing was able to participate in 2011 TC and preseason games, once the suspension started (game 1 of the RS), he high tailed it to New Jersey.

Edit: Should have said the 2010 TC and preseason.

The Cush
03-21-2012, 01:04 PM
Nope - when a player is suspended, he has to be away from the team for the duration of the suspension.

For example, while Cushing was able to participate in 2011 TC and preseason games, once the suspension started (game 1 of the RS), he high tailed it to New Jersey.

Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up. I was probably thinking NBA suspensions. Well, I hope they suspend him for the draft. Not having Payton and their GM would epic fail.

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 01:04 PM
Nope - when a player is suspended, he has to be away from the team for the duration of the suspension.
So the Saints have to run their draft without the guys who run their draft?

GlassHalfFull
03-21-2012, 01:10 PM
Wow, just saw the news. This could take years to recover from.

Dutchrudder
03-21-2012, 01:10 PM
Awesome.

srrono
03-21-2012, 01:10 PM
If I was the owner I would just clean house and fire GM & Coach I mean might as well start over otherwise your franchise is just a lame duck this year.

GlassHalfFull
03-21-2012, 01:11 PM
If I was the owner I would just clean house and fire GM & Coach I mean might as well start over otherwise your franchise is just a lame duck this year.

I am thinking the same. The suspension is a good excuse for firing a popular head coach.

GlassHalfFull
03-21-2012, 01:12 PM
Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at blackandgold.com.



Not a coincidence, I figure.

srrono
03-21-2012, 01:17 PM
There were around 22 players envovled so when the punishment comes down on them this team could go like 4-12 if every player on defense is suspended 4-6gms. I am sure they would let them spread them out thru out the season.Imagine if they get year long suspensions.

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 01:24 PM
Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL says #Saints bounties were placed on at least 4 QBs - Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, Aaron Rodgers & Cam Newton
7m Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
ESPN's Chris Mortensen confirms more punishment coming for #Saints roster: "We haven't even gotten to the players' penalties yet."
12m Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
This isn't full extent of #Saints punishment, either. NFL plan was to hand down discipline for organization first. Players next. (Vilma etc)

The Cush
03-21-2012, 01:35 PM
The full NFL statement with complete details of the investigation ...

http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2012/3/21/2890330/full-nfl-statement-regarding-bountygate-punishments#comments

Dutchrudder
03-21-2012, 01:35 PM
NFL says #Saints bounties were placed on at least 4 QBs - Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, Aaron Rodgers & Cam Newton

Newton would mean this was going on in 2011 as well. Looks like they ignored this issue for YEARS.

Playoffs
03-21-2012, 01:43 PM
Newton would mean this was going on in 2011 as well. Looks like they ignored this issue for YEARS.Yeah, I'd bet punishment was doubled due to that little nugget --- total disregard.


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Sean Payton's year-long suspension means lost salary for one year. Payton's out about $7 million.

$7 ... million ... dollar ... fine!!! :yikes:

Kimmy
03-21-2012, 01:45 PM
WOW! NFL ain't f*@$ing around. Williams suspended indefinitely

texanmojo
03-21-2012, 01:55 PM
Time to drop the S again! They really will become the 'aints' again!

That's a hell of a punishment. Damn...I'm blown away.

majestrate
03-21-2012, 01:58 PM
That's a hell of a punishment. Damn...I'm happy with the penalties.
Fixed

ObsiWan
03-21-2012, 02:41 PM
Anybody tied into the Saints' msg board??
I'll bet their server crashed when this news hit.

Naiirb
03-21-2012, 03:30 PM
Anybody tied into the Saints' msg board??
I'll bet their server crashed when this news hit.

http://saintsreport.com/forums/f2/

Yea it crashed lol.

Also Warren Sapp is saying Jeremy Shockey is the person that snitched. Not surprised it was the king of douchery.

Kimmy
03-21-2012, 03:42 PM
http://saintsreport.com/forums/f2/

Yea it crashed lol.

Also Warren Sapp is saying Jeremy Shockey is the person that snitched. Not surprised it was the king of douchery.

Exactly ... surprise factor at negative 13%

Ole Miss Texan
03-21-2012, 04:38 PM
The players are paid to play football and win games. That includes the physical nature of the sport of tackling, hitting players and forcing fumbles.

But what a bounty system does is support the concept of HURTING an opposing player. That is beyond unsportsmanlike right there. Football is physical enough as it is, purporsely hurting someone is not football.

Plus you get into the whole notion of extra money to players for their play on the field. This circumvents their contract, NFL rules and the salary cap. What is to prevent an McNair from saying, "Cushing, here is your contract for $2 million per year for the next five years. But if you give Peyton a concussion or get him taken out of the game... there's an extra $2 million in cash from my pocket to yours." Yes that's grossly exhagerated but having a pool of money for players to do something circumvents the salary cap. You can't pay players anything outside of what their contract states.

What's going to be interesting is when this investigation leads to finding these cash payments being made and the players not reporting it on their tax return. Now you've got the IRS after them for tax evasion.

:cheese:
I posted this in the Sean Peyton thread but it's more applicable here.