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leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 02:24 PM
I talked to kirwan and ryan on sirius yesterday discussing the mario williams situation. He came on today and said it sparked him to write a article that will be on nfl.com. Basically, he talks about how he can go to aj,smith,daniels,and ryans and without cutting anyone, just converting salary, and create 16m of cap space. The deal he put together was 6yrs 90m with 30m signing bonus. That would leave 10.6m of cap room to do meyers and foster. Just a heads up on how a former gm would handle it.

76Texan
03-01-2012, 02:33 PM
Appreciate the info.

Ryan
03-01-2012, 02:36 PM
Good stuff. I hope we can find a way to keep them all. Mainly Mario, Foster, and Myers. I'd be okay letting Brisiel walking and us drafting a replacement in the early-mid rounds.

Mr teX
03-01-2012, 02:36 PM
** patiently waits for dale to come in with a reason why this couldn't happen **

badboy
03-01-2012, 02:37 PM
I talked to kirwan and ryan on sirius yesterday discussing the mario williams situation. He came on today and said it sparked him to write a article that will be on nfl.com. Basically, he talks about how he can go to aj,smith,daniels,and ryans and without cutting anyone, just converting salary, and create 16m of cap space. The deal he put together was 6yrs 90m with 30m signing bonus. That would leave 10.6m of cap room to do meyers and foster. Just a heads up on how a former gm would handle it.Exactly what I've been saying. The upfront bonus and 2-3 years (low salary)guarantee should meet Mario's needs. 6 years is reasonable and new tv money in 2013 makes it all work especially if last year or so is not guaranteed. That takes care of 3 priority needs and cutting Leinert/jj= another $7m+ which could be our draft or Dreesen or go towards Duane Brown extension.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 02:40 PM
Appreciate the info.

Yeah, I've been exchanging e-mails with them for a minute. Pat Kirwan and Gil brandt take guys into the room. They talk about stuff that's bigger than just personel. I've had sirius since like 03 and have been calling in for that long. Great football info and not the local,propped up bs. Very objective.

Lucky
03-01-2012, 02:42 PM
It works, as long as Williams' agent isn't dead set on him becoming the highest paid defender. I've always felt the Texans would make a very generous offer. Just not the best offer. Hopefully, that will be good enough.

cbs1507
03-01-2012, 02:47 PM
Yeah but you forgot that we need about $5 million or so set aside to pay for the rookies we draft. All in all it sounds good, but he'd probably need a smaller cap number for 2012 to allow space for our draft picks.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Exactly what I've been saying. The upfront bonus and 2-3 years (low salary)guarantee should meet Mario's needs. 6 years is reasonable and new tv money in 2013 makes it all work especially if last year or so is not guaranteed. That takes care of 3 priority needs and cutting Leinert/jj= another $7m+ which could be our draft or Dreesen or go towards Duane Brown extension.

Yeah, he will have a salary breakdown. He did it all without a cut. If they cut walters,jones,cody,leinhart,that's 12m right there. The texans could do the restructure of the 4, sign mario,foster,and meyers, then use the xtra 12m to do brown and cushing to deals.the players they lose, they will have to draft or lower level free agens.

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 02:51 PM
** patiently waits for dale to come in with a reason why this couldn't happen **

Of course it could happen.... I'd only comment on why it shouldn't happen....

because he's not worth it. Notice that there is no comment on how Schaub, Quin, Barwin, Brown get extended... not to mention who/how we replace Cody and Jones

Dutchrudder
03-01-2012, 02:55 PM
I talked to kirwan and ryan on sirius yesterday discussing the mario williams situation. He came on today and said it sparked him to write a article that will be on nfl.com. Basically, he talks about how he can go to aj,smith,daniels,and ryans and without cutting anyone, just converting salary, and create 16m of cap space. The deal he put together was 6yrs 90m with 30m signing bonus. That would leave 10.6m of cap room to do meyers and foster. Just a heads up on how a former gm would handle it.

Wow, that's more than Julius Peppers' contract value and it includes a big signing bonus! I wonder who's been saying that's the type of money he will be offered in free agency...? :kitten:

Even with those roster moves, I don't like the idea of shelling out 15 million a year for Mario. It just seems like we would be overpaying at that point. I really think he's worth closer to 10 a year, but market price will probably be in the 15 a year range. I also would prefer retaining Myers, Brisiel, Rackers and locking down Foster longterm over getting Mario alone.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 02:55 PM
Yeah but you forgot that we need about $5 million or so set aside to pay for the rookies we draft. All in all it sounds good, but he'd probably need a smaller cap number for 2012 to allow space for our draft picks.

Its 3m. Its actually less the lower u pick. Jacoby can pay the rookies with his salary.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 03:06 PM
Of course it could happen.... I'd only comment on why it shouldn't happen....

because he's not worth it. Notice that there is no comment on how Schaub, Quin, Barwin, Brown get extended... not to mention who/how we replace Cody and Jones

The conversation I have with kirwan about contracts come to this. If the players age is 27 or younger and not a rb, you do signing bonus. Why? Because when its spread out over 6 yrs, he has a good chance of fullfilling the full contract.

Its almost laughable you brought up the replacements for jones and cody. Cody was a cheap deal free agent who has a - rating vs the run andpass and jones is a 3rd rd er. Those guys are easy to replace either via the draft or low level signings.

As I mentioned later, they could cut some dead weight and use that to sign brown 1st,cushing 2nd, barwin 3rd.

Playoffs
03-01-2012, 03:07 PM
I think we need to cheat -- wink, wink, nod, nod,

"We'll pick you up next year when the cap jumps..."

"Gonna have to trust Mr. McNair here..."

I bet Pittsburgh is doing it with Mike Wallace.

Mr teX
03-01-2012, 03:17 PM
I think we need to cheat -- wink, wink, nod, nod,

"We'll pick you up next year when the cap jumps..."

"Gonna have to trust Mr. McNair here..."

I bet Pittsburgh is doing it with Mike Wallace.

Pitt is getting ready to revamp their whole team to make room for wallace.


Ward just got cut...expect Farrior, Kiesel & Hampton to restructure or meet the ax too.

HOU-TEX
03-01-2012, 03:22 PM
Pitt is getting ready to revamp their whole team to make room for wallace.


Ward just got cut...expect Farrior, Kiesel & Hampton to restructure or meet the ax too.

Aaron Smith was just cut too

badboy
03-01-2012, 03:25 PM
Wow, that's more than Julius Peppers' contract value and it includes a big signing bonus! I wonder who's been saying that's the type of money he will be offered in free agency...? :kitten:

Even with those roster moves, I don't like the idea of shelling out 15 million a year for Mario. It just seems like we would be overpaying at that point. I really think he's worth closer to 10 a year, but market price will probably be in the 15 a year range. I also would prefer retaining Myers, Brisiel, Rackers and locking down Foster longterm over getting Mario alone.The first two years could be $6-8million guaranteed ; bump in year 3-4 and big bump last two non-guaranteed. You can cut him then or be smiling at what a wise investment you made in a huge sack guy.

Mr teX
03-01-2012, 03:25 PM
Of course it could happen.... I'd only comment on why it shouldn't happen....

because he's not worth it. Notice that there is no comment on how Schaub, Quin, Barwin, Brown get extended... not to mention who/how we replace Cody and Jones

If we make it through this year with out any real major casualties, i think we'll be ok. Aside from that, worry about 2013 when 2013 gets here.

but.....with the impending salary cap increase, schaub definitely not commanding more than what he's scheduled to make in 2012 (8 mil?) & the fact that you can save a few mil by cutting rackers this year....Okoye's money finally coming off our cap.. i think we'll be ok to deal with guys next year.

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 03:46 PM
The conversation I have with kirwan about contracts come to this. If the players age is 27 or younger and not a rb, you do signing bonus. Why? Because when its spread out over 6 yrs, he has a good chance of fullfilling the full contract.

Its almost laughable you brought up the replacements for jones and cody. Cody was a cheap deal free agent who has a - rating vs the run andpass and jones is a 3rd rd er. Those guys are easy to replace either via the draft or low level signings.

As I mentioned later, they could cut some dead weight and use that to sign brown 1st,cushing 2nd, barwin 3rd.

Cody has outperformed his contract which counts roughly $3 million against the cap. Jones' number is similar. Do you propose replacing both players with rookie UDFAs? If not, whomever you replace them with will count against the cap. I don't like the idea of replacing my starting NT with someone with zero market value. I don't want the draft to simply be about replacing proven veterans with unproven mid and late round picks based on need.... but, that's just me.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 04:25 PM
Cody has outperformed his contract which counts roughly $3 million against the cap. Jones' number is similar. Do you propose replacing both players with rookie UDFAs? If not, whomever you replace them with will count against the cap. I don't like the idea of replacing my starting NT with someone with zero market value. I don't want the draft to simply be about replacing proven veterans with unproven mid and late round picks based on need.... but, that's just me.

Did u say cody outperformed his contract? What game are u watching?.They could cut cody tommorrow and the only thing they would miss is his videos. He's easily replaced and doesn't have a market if released. They could bring him back at vet min and give him snap bonuses to fill it out. Hustle guy,that's it. Not to mention he's been a negative.

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 05:16 PM
Delete. Duplicate

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 05:17 PM
Did u say cody outperformed his contract? What game are u watching?.They could cut cody tommorrow and the only thing they would miss is his videos. He's easily replaced and doesn't have a market if released. They could bring him back at vet min and give him snap bonuses to fill it out. Hustle guy,that's it. Not to mention he's been a negative.

Well, this highlights the fact that you and I clearly don't see the same thing when we sit down to watch football. Cody isn't spectacular, certainly. However, I have no clue how someone could've watched the defense play this season and conclude that the "only thing they would miss is his videos"? Wow!

And, that "he's been a negative"? In 2011... really?

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 05:47 PM
Wow, that's more than Julius Peppers' contract value and it includes a big signing bonus! I wonder who's been saying that's the type of money he will be offered in free agency...? :kitten:

Even with those roster moves, I don't like the idea of shelling out 15 million a year for Mario. It just seems like we would be overpaying at that point. I really think he's worth closer to 10 a year, but market price will probably be in the 15 a year range. I also would prefer retaining Myers, Brisiel, Rackers and locking down Foster longterm over getting Mario alone.

I don't either. I'd like Mario to be with the Texans for a long time to come. However, I think if we go too far over $14M, it may make things difficult for the Texans in the future. I don't know how far over "too far" over is.

My ceiling is $14M. Julius Peppers contract. I'd really like to see them sign him closer to $12M

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 05:57 PM
The first two years could be $6-8million guaranteed ; bump in year 3-4 and big bump last two non-guaranteed. You can cut him then or be smiling at what a wise investment you made in a huge sack guy.

With a signing bonus right?

Personally, I think $6-8M is a lot of money. But Mario just finished a 6 year stint where he made $9M/yr. I don't know how you are going to sell him on taking a pay cut. He may love the Texans, Houston, & the Bullpen.... but this is business.

Now, it's totally possible to offer him a $25M (or $30M) signing bonus over 6 years & a $4-$6M salary. His cap number would be between $8M & $12M dollars. However some time in the future, that cap number is going to have to jump to the high teens..... not good for our future.

Of course at that time we can ask him to restructure or get cut..... then we'll have dead money....

:toropalm:

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 06:03 PM
Cody has outperformed his contract which counts roughly $3 million against the cap. Jones' number is similar. Do you propose replacing both players with rookie UDFAs? If not, whomever you replace them with will count against the cap. I don't like the idea of replacing my starting NT with someone with zero market value. I don't want the draft to simply be about replacing proven veterans with unproven mid and late round picks based on need.... but, that's just me.

Mitchell can take Cody's spot. Our draft pick/FA could play behind him. If they outperform Mitchell, they win the spot.

I like Jacoby, I don't think I've been coy about that, but for the money we're spending.... doesn't make sense to me. Either he or KDub needs to go & we can start running late round flyers & FAs who can make it through training camp through the 3 & 4 WRs like every other team to find that diamond in the rough.... Jacoby Ford, Antonio Brown, Victor Cruz, etc...

Maddict5
03-01-2012, 06:18 PM
Well, this highlights the fact that you and I clearly don't see the same thing when we sit down to watch football. Cody isn't spectacular, certainly. However, I have no clue how someone could've watched the defense play this season and conclude that the "only thing they would miss is his videos"? Wow!

And, that "he's been a negative"? In 2011... really?

cody has been solid but at the same time hes still JAG....

mario, while you may feel is overrated, is still one of the premier players of his position in the league. id rather overpay mario some and keep him around rather than letting him go for nothing just to play moneyball with a few meh guys...

nonetheless im still standing by my opinion that this 'salary cap crisis' is nothing more than an offseason timefiller and we wont lose any of our important FA's that we want to keep

Maddict5
03-01-2012, 06:19 PM
Mitchell can take Cody's spot. Our draft pick/FA could play behind him. If they outperform Mitchell, they win the spot.

I like Jacoby, I don't think I've been coy about that, but for the money we're spending.... doesn't make sense to me. Either he or KDub needs to go & we can start running late round flyers & FAs who can make it through training camp through the 3 & 4 WRs like every other team to find that diamond in the rough.... Jacoby Ford, Antonio Brown, Victor Cruz, etc...

......lestar jean :cowboy1:

Allstar
03-01-2012, 06:21 PM
Wait, so is it an article or a radio interview? If it's an article, anyone have a link?

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 06:42 PM
Mitchell can take Cody's spot. Our draft pick/FA could play behind him. If they outperform Mitchell, they win the spot.

I like Jacoby, I don't think I've been coy about that, but for the money we're spending.... doesn't make sense to me. Either he or KDub needs to go & we can start running late round flyers & FAs who can make it through training camp through the 3 & 4 WRs like every other team to find that diamond in the rough.... Jacoby Ford, Antonio Brown, Victor Cruz, etc...

Do you see this?: See how the Mario signing whittles away our depth. Not only with them not being able to upgrade at WR2/3 or NT in free agency, the proposed Mario deal has using getting worse at NT and WR, in addition to spending draft picks to on replacements instead of BPA. Not a fan of this scenario at all!

Playoffs
03-01-2012, 06:55 PM
Wait, so is it an article or a radio interview? If it's an article, anyone have a link?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17527224/williams-will-be-expensive-but-heres-a-plan-that-could-work-for-texans

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 07:00 PM
Do you see this?: See how the Mario signing whittles away our depth. Not only with them not being able to upgrade at WR2/3 or NT in free agency, the proposed Mario deal has using getting worse at NT and WR, in addition to spending draft picks to on replacements instead of BPA. Not a fan of this scenario at all!

Really?

That's not at all what I said. I like Cody, but I think Mitchell plays just as well, if not a hair better. I'm making room for a rookie to come in & earn a spot on the team..... don't see any reason to keep 3 NTs on the roster.

I like Jacoby, but we shouldn't pay $3+ million for a 500 yard 5 TD receiver, which we have with Jacoby/KDubya.....

I want to go strong - trade out of the first & draft 2 WRs in the second- for our #2 WR in the draft.

My opinion for making these moves should happen regardless what we do with Mario.

mussop
03-01-2012, 07:09 PM
I talked to kirwan and ryan on sirius yesterday discussing the mario williams situation. He came on today and said it sparked him to write a article that will be on nfl.com. Basically, he talks about how he can go to aj,smith,daniels,and ryans and without cutting anyone, just converting salary, and create 16m of cap space. The deal he put together was 6yrs 90m with 30m signing bonus. That would leave 10.6m of cap room to do meyers and foster. Just a heads up on how a former gm would handle it.

Do you seriously think Mario is worth that money? Just because it could be done doesn't mean we should do it. Does he say how we are going to be able to sign all our FA's next year? Imagine what FA's we could add with that money.

Strapping us up against the cap to keep Mario is nearsighted and flat out stupid!

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 07:21 PM
Really?

That's not at all what I said. I like Cody, but I think Mitchell plays just as well, if not a hair better. I'm making room for a rookie to come in & earn a spot on the team..... don't see any reason to keep 3 NTs on the roster.

I like Jacoby, but we shouldn't pay $3+ million for a 500 yard 5 TD receiver, which we have with Jacoby/KDubya.....

I want to go strong - trade out of the first & draft 2 WRs in the second- for our #2 WR in the draft.

My opinion for making these moves should happen regardless what we do with Mario.


Anyway you slice it, you are cutting our best NT in order to pay Mario. You are cutting our 3rd best WR in order to pay Mario. Then, you are spending draft picks on certain positions because you needed to make room for Mario. By the way, that $5 million only gets you part way there.

I'd simply not sign Mario and add a good WR, perhaps a better NT, maybe upgrade at CB, sign all our free agents and begin extending guys like Brown, Barwin, etc... Then, other than adding depth at OLB, we would have a complete team with great depth.

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 07:37 PM
Anyway you slice it, you are cutting our best NT in order to pay Mario. You are cutting our 3rd best WR in order to pay Mario. Then, you are spending draft picks on certain positions because you needed to make room for Mario. By the way, that $5 million only gets you part way there.

I'd simply not sign Mario and add a good WR, perhaps a better NT, maybe upgrade at CB, sign all our free agents and begin extending guys like Brown, Barwin, etc... Then, other than adding depth at OLB, we would have a complete team with great depth.

You do understand we can only keep 53 players on our roster.

I'm not cutting our best NT... I think Mitchell is just as good. I'm not cutting or 3rd best WR..... I'm culling underperformers.

Whether Mario is here or not, we need to upgrade our WR position, we're going to have to draft some body.

I am also of the opinion that the Texans have more cap room than is being reported. I just don't see 44 players on our roster that add up to $113M.

There's a thread on this site, someone has what appears to be 2012 salary numbers for our 44 players who will still be under contract after March 13 (as of now). It looks like we have $101M tied up, leaving us $23M (if the cap is $124M) plus the $1M we can roll over from 2011 & the $3M we can borrow from 2013..... $27M..... we can sign Mario, Foster, & Myers for $18M (cap number) & leaving $5M to chase FA & sign our draft picks.

Dropping Cody, Jjones/KDub, and restructuring Demeco, & any other contract is just good business.

ckhouston
03-01-2012, 07:46 PM
Did u say cody outperformed his contract? What game are u watching?.They could cut cody tommorrow and the only thing they would miss is his videos. He's easily replaced and doesn't have a market if released. They could bring him back at vet min and give him snap bonuses to fill it out. Hustle guy,that's it. Not to mention he's been a negative.

We had one of ther best defenses in the league. Cody was never going to work according to basically everyone on the planet (who doesnt understand Wades system) but yet we still were at the top. Would we have been #1 all year and never given up any points with Ngata? No. Cody did fine and actually was very impressive for being an undersized interior NT in a new system with no training camp. What game were you watching? I was watching the one where our defense was bad-ass.

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 08:05 PM
You do understand we can only keep 53 players on our roster.

I'm not cutting our best NT... I think Mitchell is just as good. I'm not cutting or 3rd best WR..... I'm culling underperformers.

Whether Mario is here or not, we need to upgrade our WR position, we're going to have to draft some body.

Dropping Cody, Jjones/KDub, and restructuring Demeco, & any other contract is just good business.

If Mario isn't here, we have real money to spend on a proven WR.

To say Mitchell may become as good or better than Cody is fine. To say he was as good last year is foolish. Again, this is what I don't understand: we had a great defense last season after Mario went down. According to any metric you would like to use, the defense was better after he was injured than it was before. So, now, you want to keep Mario and let go of players that actually contributed heavily to the defense's success. Cody isn't over the hill and he's relatively cheap... It just doesn't make sense. This isn't the NBA. Star players, outside of the QB position, usually don't make the impact that X-Box playing fans think they do.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 08:32 PM
We had one of ther best defenses in the league. Cody was never going to work according to basically everyone on the planet (who doesnt understand Wades system) but yet we still were at the top. Would we have been #1 all year and never given up any points with Ngata? No. Cody did fine and actually was very impressive for being an undersized interior NT in a new system with no training camp. What game were you watching? I was watching the one where our defense was bad-ass.

They covered for cody by run blitzing in his gap. When you look at the texans run defense, look at the ypc especially up the middle.

Dalemurphy, cody is average in every sense of the word. There are a couple of guys, mike martin and alaameda taama who can replace cody right now. The washigton kid is a 2nd rd er and the michigan kid will be 2nd/3rd rd. I don't think I even have to address walter and jones replacement.

The point of the article is they can do it without sacrificing the future of the franchise. If I told you the texans could sign mario,foster,meyers and extend cushing and brown and all you had to do is cut lienhart,jj,cody,and walters, are u still against it?

cbs1507
03-01-2012, 08:43 PM
If Mario isn't here, we have real money to spend on a proven WR.

To say Mitchell may become as good or better than Cody is fine. To say he was as good last year is foolish. Again, this is what I don't understand: we had a great defense last season after Mario went down. According to any metric you would like to use, the defense was better after he was injured than it was before. So, now, you want to keep Mario and let go of players that actually contributed heavily to the defense's success. Cody isn't over the hill and he's relatively cheap... It just doesn't make sense. This isn't the NBA. Star players, outside of the QB position, usually don't make the impact that X-Box playing fans think they do.

I swear some of you Mario haters over-value everyone that is not Mario.

Shaun Cody career stats
http://www.nfl.com/player/shauncody/2506376/profile

Earl Mitchell career stats
http://www.nfl.com/player/earlmitchell/496822/profile

Mitchell has more tackles and just as many sacks last year. He has more sacks in the past 2 seasons than Cody in the past 6. Let's just say we did cut Cody. If that was all that stood between us and signing Mario then I'm down.

But seriously do you think the loss of Shaun Cody is that devastating? We could draft a Kendall Reyes or my favorite Alameda Ta’amu (everybody needs a Polynesian on their defense ;)). We could get them in the 2nd round and they would be cheaper than what Cody would cost us based on the new rookie pay scale. Are you doubting that we could draft a guy that can get us 23 tackles and 1 sack at the NT position?

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 08:47 PM
They covered for cody by run blitzing in his gap. When you look at the texans run defense, look at the ypc especially up the middle.

Dalemurphy, cody is average in every sense of the word. There are a couple of guys, mike martin and alaameda taama who can replace cody right now. The washigton kid is a 2nd rd er and the michigan kid will be 2nd/3rd rd. I don't think I even have to address walter and jones replacement.

The point of the article is they can do it without sacrificing the future of the franchise. If I told you the texans could sign mario,foster,meyers and extend cushing and brown and all you had to do is cut lienhart,jj,cody,and walters, are u still against it?

It depends on the future ramifications. I don't want the Texans to create issues for themselves heading into 2013 and 2014.

I could care less about Leinart. Cuttling Cody is problematic but a consideration. Cutting Walter is a big mistake. I would not do it considering our lack of veteran wide receivers. Our offense is predicated on rhythm, blocking, and continuity. While I would love a more explosive option at WR, I don't want to lose him in a year when we have nothing reliable behind him. I don't mind dumping JJ but it is impossible to cut he and Walter, leaving Lester Jean as the Texans defacto #2 WR heading into the draft. NO thanks!

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 08:47 PM
If Mario isn't here, we have real money to spend on a proven WR.

True.... true.

We would also have enough "real" money to chase a proven WR if we were paying league minimum for Wide recievers who produce like two league minimum WRs. That's less than a million dollars. We could & should have $3M max tied up in the receivers we have, instead we have over $7M.... That could be a proven WR plus a couple of low round flyers.


To say Mitchell may become as good or better than Cody is fine. To say he was as good last year is foolish. Again, this is what I don't understand: we had a great defense last season after Mario went down. According to any metric you would like to use, the defense was better after he was injured than it was before. So, now, you want to keep Mario and let go of players that actually contributed heavily to the defense's success. Cody isn't over the hill and he's relatively cheap... It just doesn't make sense. This isn't the NBA. Star players, outside of the QB position, usually don't make the impact that X-Box playing fans think they do.

Keep Cody if you want. But Mitchell played on that "great" defense as well as Cody..... probably played as many snaps, or very close. We overpaid Cody to lure him to the great sport city of Houston. Just like we overpaid for Antonio Smth. Again, we should be paying league minimum for the production we get out of Cody.

& as good as this defense was in 2011, we get better by adding a dynamic, freak of an athlete versatile enough to play OLB in a 3-4 or DE in a 4-3, just like Wade likes to play it. We can go to FA & try to find that guy, who'll work in this system, in this locker room, with this coach, in this city. We can go to the draft & find that raw athlete who's game can translate to the NFL, who'll work in this system, in this locker room, with this coach, in this city, who knows how to be a pro.

Or, we can be thankful for the bird in our hand. Offer him a fair deal, negotiate out of good faith. If it happens, it happens. If not.... plan B.

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 08:52 PM
I swear some of you Mario haters over-value everyone that is not Mario.

Shaun Cody career stats
http://www.nfl.com/player/shauncody/2506376/profile

Earl Mitchell career stats
http://www.nfl.com/player/earlmitchell/496822/profile

Mitchell has more tackles and just as many sacks last year. He has more sacks in the past 2 seasons than Cody in the past 6. Let's just say we did cut Cody. If that was all that stood between us and signing Mario then I'm down.

But seriously do you think the loss of Shaun Cody is that devastating? We could draft a Kendall Reyes or my favorite Alameda Ta’amu (everybody needs a Polynesian on their defense ;)). We could get them in the 2nd round and they would be cheaper than what Cody would cost us based on the new rookie pay scale. Are you doubting that we could draft a guy that can get us 23 tackles and 1 sack at the NT position?


You are going to use the stats of a NT to determine his worth? Wow!

The loss of Cody, in itself, isn't devastating. What is devastating is dumping effective players in their prime in order to create cap space for one player who hasn't finished a season healthy since 2008. Football rosters are 53 men deep for a reason. Also, for every player you cut to create cap space, you force the Texans to replace in the draft. That's not the best way to run a draft, IMO.

I'd rather the Texans enter the draft without a glaring need and have all their draft picks on best available player.

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 08:58 PM
True.... true.

We would also have enough "real" money to chase a proven WR if we were paying league minimum for Wide recievers who produce like two league minimum WRs. That's less than a million dollars. We could & should have $3M max tied up in the receivers we have, instead we have over $7M.... That could be a proven WR plus a couple of low round flyers.



Keep Cody if you want. But Mitchell played on that "great" defense as well as Cody..... probably played as many snaps, or very close. We overpaid Cody to lure him to the great sport city of Houston. Just like we overpaid for Antonio Smth. Again, we should be paying league minimum for the production we get out of Cody.

& as good as this defense was in 2011, we get better by adding a dynamic, freak of an athlete versatile enough to play OLB in a 3-4 or DE in a 4-3, just like Wade likes to play it. We can go to FA & try to find that guy, who'll work in this system, in this locker room, with this coach, in this city. We can go to the draft & find that raw athlete who's game can translate to the NFL, who'll work in this system, in this locker room, with this coach, in this city, who knows how to be a pro.

Or, we can be thankful for the bird in our hand. Offer him a fair deal, negotiate out of good faith. If it happens, it happens. If not.... plan B.


We got tremendous value for Antonio Smith. Your perception at the time may have been that we overpaid for him, however he has performed up to that contract without a doubt.

Cody is working on his 2nd contract with Houston. We re-signed him last year for more money that his original deal because the coaching staff thinks highly of his play.

Cody played twice as many snaps as Mitchell. I like Mitchell. However, Cody + Mitchell is almost definitely much better than Mitchell + a cheap alternative.

We wouldn't be adding Mario. He was already on the team last year. How much did his presence improve the team in 2011? How about 2010?

cbs1507
03-01-2012, 08:59 PM
You are going to use the stats of a NT to determine his worth? Wow!

The loss of Cody, in itself, isn't devastating. What is devastating is dumping effective players in their prime in order to create cap space for one player who hasn't finished a season healthy since 2008. Football rosters are 53 men deep for a reason. Also, for every player you cut to create cap space, you force the Texans to replace in the draft. That's not the best way to run a draft, IMO.

I'd rather the Texans enter the draft without a glaring need and have all their draft picks on best available player.

He doesn't demand (or even at least occasionally occupy) double teams. In fact teams double our DE's instead of him on passing situations. He is overpaid for the production he gives us. Like leebigeztx said we have to run blitz just to occupy blocks and stop the run. A rookie (much cheaper) could do that for us.

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 09:01 PM
The loss of Cody, in itself, isn't devastating. What is devastating is dumping effective players in their prime in order to create cap space for one player who hasn't finished a season healthy since 2008. Football rosters are 53 men deep for a reason. Also, for every player you cut to create cap space, you force the Texans to replace in the draft. That's not the best way to run a draft, IMO.

I'd rather the Texans enter the draft without a glaring need and have all their draft picks on best available player.

If you let Mario Walk, you have to address outside pass rusher. It's silly to not think so. I believe you should address that position with our first pick, or our 2nd at the latest. Some people may think we can find that player in this draft in the 3rd or lower. But to not see the need....... but think we "have to" replace Cody, you really need to slow down with the 'shrooms....

Another thing, most "draftniks" on this board (& some of the professional media guys) have identified WR as our most pressing need & NT as another. Look at the mocks, they have us taking either a WR in the first & a DT in the second, or a DT in the first & a WR in the second.

While our needs may not be glaring, they're still there.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 09:05 PM
Williams will be expensive, but here's a plan that could work for TexansBy*Pat Kirwan
*| NFL Insider

There is less than a week until the deadline for teams to use the franchise tag on players. For some teams, it's a no brainer. For others it is a difficult decision.
The latter group includes the*Houston Texans
. For most of the offseason it has been assumed that Houston simply can't tag*Mario Williams
*because of the cap expense. Tagging him would be close to impossible but getting him signed to a deal could be attainable.
Williams made $18.326 million last year and whether he is viewed as a defensive end (franchise tag price of $10.6 million) or outside linebacker (franchise tag $8.8 million) it doesn't matter because he qualifies for 120 percent of his 2011 salary because it is higher than the franchise tag. That requires $22 million of salary cap space. As soon as Williams signs the franchise offer it is guaranteed.
The Texans have $4.77 million of cap space as of Feb. 29. Tagging him is impossible unless they dump a considerable number of high-priced players, weakening the team. Signing him to a long-term deal is possible and I will show you a few options Houston could consider to keep the 27-year-old Williams in a Texans uniform.

The team also has to find a way to re-sign center*Chris Myers
*and restricted free-agent running back*Arian Foster
. It is no easy task but it can be done. It will take a lot of cash, somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 million, but if the Texans believe they are close to a Super Bowl this isn't the time to go backward in the personnel department. A team in a rebuilding situation or with an aging squad should not consider this method.
First, you can forget going to*Matt Schaub
*for cap relief because he is in the last year of his deal and there is no way to spread a bonus out. Asking him to do a contract extension might be too much with the price of quarterbacks still going up so ignore him for the time being.
Before the Texans cut any players to make this work they could talk to four veterans --*Andre Johnson
,Johnathan Joseph
,*Owen Daniels
,*Antonio Smith
*-- about converting salary to signing bonus without adding any years to their existing contracts. I would assume that all four would be willing to take cash now instead of during the season. All have multiple years left on their contracts and all four should be in the Texans' plans at least for the length of their present contracts.
•*Johnson is scheduled to make $6.5 million this season and has five years left on his deal. Convert $5 million of his 2012 salary to signing bonus and for cap purposes spread the bonus out over the five years remaining and it gives the Texans $4 million of salary-cap space right now.
•*Joseph is scheduled to make $7.25 million this season and has four years left on his deal. Convert $6 million of his 2012 salary into signing bonus and spread it out over the four years and it gives the Texans another $4.5 million of cap space.
•*Daniels is scheduled to make $3.5 million this year and has three years left on his deal. Convert $2.5 million of his salary to signing bonus and spread it out over the three years and it gives the Texans $1.66 million of cap space.
•*Smith is scheduled to make $5.5 million this year and has two years left on his contract. Convert $4 million of it to signing bonus and spread it over the two seasons and it gives the Texans $2 million of salary cap space.

Those four contract maneuvers create a total of $12.16 million of cap space. Add that to the $4.77 million of existing space and the Texans have $16.93 million of space to work with to keep their players.
First stop: Mario Williams. Since Williams knows the team can't afford the franchise tag and if he gets to free agency he should get a contract close to*Julius Peppers'
*deal that averages $14 million a year, the Texans have to get to the real numbers. The right deal might be six years for $90 million with a $30 million signing bonus and a $1 million salary in the first year. That means Williams sees $31 million the first year.
The cap charge for that deal is only $6 million in 2012: Divide the number of years (6) into the bonus ($30 million) to get a yearly proration of $5 million plus a $1 million salary. The second-year salary could be $3 million, which means he sees $34 million in the first two years. That is a $17 million average and a second-year cap charge of $8 million, which is tolerable. A third season at a $7 million salary means a three-year average of $13.6 million, or slightly above Peppers' three-year average. The cap charge for the third year would be $12 million.


That deal leaves $10.66 million of cap space in 2012, enough to sign Myers, Foster and draft picks. The salary cap is low right now but there will be growth in the next few years and the Texans will be able to absorb the contract growth.
There's always a risk when handing out big bonuses instead of unguaranteed salaries but the Texans are close to the top and could be legitimate Super Bowl contenders. The Colts are rebuilding, the Jaguars are starting a second-year quarterback and the Titans may be doing the same. The time is now for the Houston Texas.
*

Here is the article. Hope my cut and paste from phone worked ok.

mussop
03-01-2012, 09:35 PM
Williams will be expensive, but here's a plan that could work for TexansBy*Pat Kirwan
*| NFL Insider

There is less than a week until the deadline for teams to use the franchise tag on players. For some teams, it's a no brainer. For others it is a difficult decision.
The latter group includes the*Houston Texans
. For most of the offseason it has been assumed that Houston simply can't tag*Mario Williams
*because of the cap expense. Tagging him would be close to impossible but getting him signed to a deal could be attainable.
Williams made $18.326 million last year and whether he is viewed as a defensive end (franchise tag price of $10.6 million) or outside linebacker (franchise tag $8.8 million) it doesn't matter because he qualifies for 120 percent of his 2011 salary because it is higher than the franchise tag. That requires $22 million of salary cap space. As soon as Williams signs the franchise offer it is guaranteed.
The Texans have $4.77 million of cap space as of Feb. 29. Tagging him is impossible unless they dump a considerable number of high-priced players, weakening the team. Signing him to a long-term deal is possible and I will show you a few options Houston could consider to keep the 27-year-old Williams in a Texans uniform.

The team also has to find a way to re-sign center*Chris Myers
*and restricted free-agent running back*Arian Foster
. It is no easy task but it can be done. It will take a lot of cash, somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 million, but if the Texans believe they are close to a Super Bowl this isn't the time to go backward in the personnel department. A team in a rebuilding situation or with an aging squad should not consider this method.
First, you can forget going to*Matt Schaub
*for cap relief because he is in the last year of his deal and there is no way to spread a bonus out. Asking him to do a contract extension might be too much with the price of quarterbacks still going up so ignore him for the time being.
Before the Texans cut any players to make this work they could talk to four veterans --*Andre Johnson
,Johnathan Joseph
,*Owen Daniels
,*Antonio Smith
*-- about converting salary to signing bonus without adding any years to their existing contracts. I would assume that all four would be willing to take cash now instead of during the season. All have multiple years left on their contracts and all four should be in the Texans' plans at least for the length of their present contracts.
•*Johnson is scheduled to make $6.5 million this season and has five years left on his deal. Convert $5 million of his 2012 salary to signing bonus and for cap purposes spread the bonus out over the five years remaining and it gives the Texans $4 million of salary-cap space right now.
•*Joseph is scheduled to make $7.25 million this season and has four years left on his deal. Convert $6 million of his 2012 salary into signing bonus and spread it out over the four years and it gives the Texans another $4.5 million of cap space.
•*Daniels is scheduled to make $3.5 million this year and has three years left on his deal. Convert $2.5 million of his salary to signing bonus and spread it out over the three years and it gives the Texans $1.66 million of cap space.
•*Smith is scheduled to make $5.5 million this year and has two years left on his contract. Convert $4 million of it to signing bonus and spread it over the two seasons and it gives the Texans $2 million of salary cap space.

Those four contract maneuvers create a total of $12.16 million of cap space. Add that to the $4.77 million of existing space and the Texans have $16.93 million of space to work with to keep their players.
First stop: Mario Williams. Since Williams knows the team can't afford the franchise tag and if he gets to free agency he should get a contract close to*Julius Peppers'
*deal that averages $14 million a year, the Texans have to get to the real numbers. The right deal might be six years for $90 million with a $30 million signing bonus and a $1 million salary in the first year. That means Williams sees $31 million the first year.
The cap charge for that deal is only $6 million in 2012: Divide the number of years (6) into the bonus ($30 million) to get a yearly proration of $5 million plus a $1 million salary. The second-year salary could be $3 million, which means he sees $34 million in the first two years. That is a $17 million average and a second-year cap charge of $8 million, which is tolerable. A third season at a $7 million salary means a three-year average of $13.6 million, or slightly above Peppers' three-year average. The cap charge for the third year would be $12 million.


That deal leaves $10.66 million of cap space in 2012, enough to sign Myers, Foster and draft picks. The salary cap is low right now but there will be growth in the next few years and the Texans will be able to absorb the contract growth.
There's always a risk when handing out big bonuses instead of unguaranteed salaries but the Texans are close to the top and could be legitimate Super Bowl contenders. The Colts are rebuilding, the Jaguars are starting a second-year quarterback and the Titans may be doing the same. The time is now for the Houston Texas.
*

Here is the article. Hope my cut and paste from phone worked ok.

Stupid Texans front office. We should fire them all and hire Kirwin since he knows more about our salary cap they they do! :mcnugget: Why isn't this guy working contracts for some NFL team?

To pay Mario that kind of money is EFFEN STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can any intelligent person not see that if that money is attainable, this team would be better off using it to add multiple players instead of spending it on a player not worthy of such a large chunk of the cap space?

Mario is a good player, a very good player! He is NOT a game changer! He does NOT dominate nor take over games. Someone please point out one game where he truely dominated besides the the monday night game against Denver. That kind of money should only be spent on a single player when he is a game changing dominating presence.

We already have one of the top defenses in the entire NFL without him. Use that money to add more depth and strengthen the team. It will pay off in the long run.

Or you know just give Mario the money and next year when he or another important player goes down and we don't have any depth you can all cry about how unlucky we are.

badboy
03-01-2012, 09:36 PM
I expect McNair to ok a big push this off season to put team into Super Bowl consideration.

mussop
03-01-2012, 09:40 PM
I expect McNair to ok a big push this off season to put team into Super Bowl consideration.

There are going to be some big names cut soon by other teams to get under the cap. Lots of older but still good players will make this FA market very affordable. Thats where we need to be looking instead of blowing our wad on one player. Lots of those type players are going to want to play for a team like the Texans.

steelbtexan
03-01-2012, 09:44 PM
There are going to be some big names cut soon by other teams to get under the cap. Lots of older but still good players will make this FA market very affordable. Thats where we need to be looking instead of blowing our wad on one player. Lots of those type players are going to want to play for a team like the Texans.

^^^^
This

Injury prone player

badboy
03-01-2012, 09:58 PM
There are going to be some big names cut soon by other teams to get under the cap. Lots of older but still good players will make this FA market very affordable. Thats where we need to be looking instead of blowing our wad on one player. Lots of those type players are going to want to play for a team like the Texans.You must have read some of the many posts over the last two years saying I want to move Mario. I don't think anyone pre-dated my first comments. The difference between me and some others is I recognize his value. I began my talking about a trade with New England & was told repeatedly he did not fit. Now many talking heads say NE is perfect fit.

Having said that, I also believe McNair will offer a deal that Mario accepts even if fans don't like it. I am not as optimistic as you on free agency.

leebigeztx
03-01-2012, 10:06 PM
There are going to be some big names cut soon by other teams to get under the cap. Lots of older but still good players will make this FA market very affordable. Thats where we need to be looking instead of blowing our wad on one player. Lots of those type players are going to want to play for a team like the Texans.

So, who are these very good older players you speak of? Most times when an older player gets cut, he's probably done.

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 10:46 PM
Stupid Texans front office. We should fire them all and hire Kirwin since he knows more about our salary cap they they do! :mcnugget: Why isn't this guy working contracts for some NFL team?


Understand that Kirwan made a bit of a boo-boo. He states the Texans have $4.77M of cap space as of Feb 29, then goes on to show how the Texans can create the cap space to sign Mario, Foster, Myers & draft picks by restructuring just 4 contracts to free up $12.16M for a total of $16.93M


For now, just remember that. We sign Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks for $16.93M


To pay Mario that kind of money is EFFEN STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can any intelligent person not see that if that money is attainable, this team would be better off using it to add multiple players instead of spending it on a player not worthy of such a large chunk of the cap space?

So what's really the issue? That we won't be able to sign anyone else?

What if we could?

If we could find a way to free up some extra money to sign all the other players you want, would it really matter how much money we give Mario?

Think about it. We get everything you want, plus Mario.... would that make you happy?

Mario is a good player, a very good player! He is NOT a game changer! He does NOT dominate nor take over games. Someone please point out one game where he truely dominated besides the the monday night game against Denver. That kind of money should only be spent on a single player when he is a game changing dominating presence.

I thought he was pretty dominate in this years Miami & Pittsburg game. But that's just me. Surely your idea & my ideas won't jive, but it is what it is.

We already have one of the top defenses in the entire NFL without him. Use that money to add more depth and strengthen the team. It will pay off in the long run.

I can't wait to see Mario playing with Barwin, Smith, & Watt playing like they did in the last 4 games of the season (including play-offs). I haven't verified it, but I thought we were getting more turnovers (just like we were getting more sacks) when Mario was in the game. That is until the end of the season, when every body else's performance started to match the level Mario was playing at since week 1.

Again, that's just me.

Or you know just give Mario the money and next year when he or another important player goes down and we don't have any depth you can all cry about how unlucky we are.

Again, with the depth & getting other players... now I asked you earlier in this post, if you'd be happy if we were able to get all the other players you wanted.... keep in mind, the league only allows us to have 53 players.

So who do you want? How much is it going to cost to get them?

Go back to the article, remember that said $4.77M under the cap as of Feb 29. That means Mario's contract & the other 11 FA's are still counted, however we signed Mario, Myers, Foster, & our draft picks with the space we created restructuring 4 player's contracts. Andre Johnson, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Daniels, & Antonio Smith.

It also said Mario counted as $18M towards our cap.... as of Feb 29.

So go get whoever you want. If $18M isn't enough, cut Jacoby... if you're going to bring in a "real" proven #2 WR, cut Walters. That's an additional $7M..... that's $25M

Not enough? Restructure Demeco's contract, restructure Schaub's, you can free up another $12M for a total of $37M

We could have Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks signed, & still have $37M to go after any FA you want.

Still not enough? Cut Rackers, cut Jason Allen, cut Derrick Ward..... how much money do you need to supply depth & a few quality pieces to this team?

mussop
03-01-2012, 10:48 PM
You must have read some of the many posts over the last two years saying I want to move Mario. I don't think anyone pre-dated my first comments. The difference between me and some others is I recognize his value. I began my talking about a trade with New England & was told repeatedly he did not fit. Now many talking heads say NE is perfect fit.

Having said that, I also believe McNair will offer a deal that Mario accepts even if fans don't like it. I am not as optimistic as you on free agency.

Sorry I don't remember you ever being involved in this long ongoing discussion. :pop:

mussop
03-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Understand that Kirwan made a bit of a boo-boo. He states the Texans have $4.77M of cap space as of Feb 29, then goes on to show how the Texans can create the cap space to sign Mario, Foster, Myers & draft picks by restructuring just 4 contracts to free up $12.16M for a total of $16.93M


For now, just remember that. We sign Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks for $16.93M


So what's really the issue? That we won't be able to sign anyone else?

What if we could?

If we could find a way to free up some extra money to sign all the other players you want, would it really matter how much money we give Mario?

Think about it. We get everything you want, plus Mario.... would that make you happy?

I thought he was pretty dominate in this years Miami & Pittsburg game. But that's just me. Surely your idea & my ideas won't jive, but it is what it is.

I can't wait to see Mario playing with Barwin, Smith, & Watt playing like they did in the last 4 games of the season (including play-offs). I haven't verified it, but I thought we were getting more turnovers (just like we were getting more sacks) when Mario was in the game. That is until the end of the season, when every body else's performance started to match the level Mario was playing at since week 1.

Again, that's just me.


Again, with the depth & getting other players... now I asked you earlier in this post, if you'd be happy if we were able to get all the other players you wanted.... keep in mind, the league only allows us to have 53 players.

So who do you want? How much is it going to cost to get them?

Go back to the article, remember that said $4.77M under the cap as of Feb 29. That means Mario's contract & the other 11 FA's are still counted, however we signed Mario, Myers, Foster, & our draft picks with the space we created restructuring 4 player's contracts. Andre Johnson, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Daniels, & Antonio Smith.

It also said Mario counted as $18M towards our cap.... as of Feb 29.

So go get whoever you want. If $18M isn't enough, cut Jacoby... if you're going to bring in a "real" proven #2 WR, cut Walters. That's an additional $7M..... that's $25M

Not enough? Restructure Demeco's contract, restructure Schaub's, you can free up another $12M for a total of $37M

We could have Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks signed, & still have $37M to go after any FA you want.

Still not enough? Cut Rackers, cut Jason Allen, cut Derrick Ward..... how much money do you need to supply depth & a few quality pieces to this team?


This is simple math. Take the team we ended last season with, the one without Mario that was able to make the playoffs with a top two defense and a backup QB, add a couple of key free agents to strengthen a weak area like we did last year with the money you want to spend on Mario.

In other words subtract Mario add (examples) Marques Colston, WR and Jeremy Zuttah, G/C.

dalemurphy
03-01-2012, 11:42 PM
Understand that Kirwan made a bit of a boo-boo. He states the Texans have $4.77M of cap space as of Feb 29, then goes on to show how the Texans can create the cap space to sign Mario, Foster, Myers & draft picks by restructuring just 4 contracts to free up $12.16M for a total of $16.93M



I thought he was pretty dominate in this years Miami & Pittsburg game. But that's just me. Surely your idea & my ideas won't jive, but it is what it is.

I can't wait to see Mario playing with Barwin, Smith, & Watt playing like they did in the last 4 games of the season (including play-offs). I haven't verified it, but I thought we were getting more turnovers (just like we were getting more sacks) when Mario was in the game. That is until the end of the season, when every body else's performance started to match the level Mario was playing at since week 1.

Again, that's just me.


Again, with the depth & getting other players... now I asked you earlier in this post, if you'd be happy if we were able to get all the other players you wanted.... keep in mind, the league only allows us to have 53 players.

So who do you want? How much is it going to cost to get them?

Go back to the article, remember that said $4.77M under the cap as of Feb 29. That means Mario's contract & the other 11 FA's are still counted, however we signed Mario, Myers, Foster, & our draft picks with the space we created restructuring 4 player's contracts. Andre Johnson, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Daniels, & Antonio Smith.

Still not enough? Cut Rackers, cut Jason Allen, cut Derrick Ward..... how much money do you need to supply depth & a few quality pieces to this team?

We were on our 3rd string Quarterback, yet continued to win without Mario. Still, you want to gut the team that was playing important games to pay a guy that hasn't produced 10 sacks since 2008... Why? I'm not sure. I guess it's because the same people who claimed guys like Roy Williams (both of them), Chad Johnson, Randy Moss, Albert Haynesworth, Chris Johnson, and Asomugha were difference-makers worth spending elite money on.

He had a very good game vs. Pittsurgh. I agree. Miami? no. Barwin's sack was in a one on one matchup versus Jake Long. How did Mario acquire his sack? I'm not too excited about spending nearly $100 million on a guy that has had 2 or 3 great games since October of 2009. Sorry.

Mr teX
03-02-2012, 09:51 AM
This is simple math. Take the team we ended last season with, the one without Mario that was able to make the playoffs with a top two defense and a backup QB, add a couple of key free agents to strengthen a weak area like we did last year with the money you want to spend on Mario.

In other words subtract Mario add (examples) Marques Colston, WR and Jeremy Zuttah, G/C.

Lol...so your plan is to cut a guy whom you & dale call "injury prone" to add another injury prone player in Marques Colston?

What's more is that you have this same line of thinking with regards to resigning Brisiel.......another guy who's missed 20+ games in 3 different seasons for us.

Meanwhile you've got dale spewing his usual garbage as if its a certainty that the FA's are gonna wanna come here or if we'll even be able to afford them.....or even if they'll have any more of an impact that the guys we have here now. Lets look at the FA WR class.

Dwayne Bowe Chiefs 5 - Franchise tag

Plaxico Burress Jets 10 - already expressed interest in Philly, likely doesn't want to come here, old

Marques Colston Saints 6 - injury prone

Early Doucet Cardinals 4 - not much better if any better than what we have or could get in the draft.

Harry Douglas Falcons 3 - viable option
Pierre Garcon Colts 4 - injury prone...inconsistent hands
Ted Ginn Jr. 49ers 5 - LOL
Vincent Jackson Chargers 7 - injury prone, wants too much, SD isn't letting him go
Stevie Johnson Bills 4 - will likely cost too much; likely franchise tag; knucklehead.
Brandon Lloyd Rams 9 - viable option but if the texans thought highly of him he'd be here already for a 7th round pick.
Mario Manningham Giants 4 - viable option although i think he'll want too much.

Robert Meachem Saints 5 - not much if any better than Kevin Walter & JJ.

Laurent Robinson Cowboys 5 - likely not letting him go; only guy other than Austin Romo had repoire with.

Jerome Simpson Bengals 4 - inconsistent, knucklehead & not much better than what we've got.

Mike Wallace* Steelers 3 - steelers making room for him as we speak by cutting fan favorite Ward.


Reggie Wayne Colts 11 - would never come play for the texans imo.

Wes Welker Patriots 8 - franchise tag

Roy Williams Bears 8 - Lol.


so out of this huge market of vet wrs there are only really 2 viable guys...& we don't even know how much kubes likes these guys nor do we know how much they'll command.

Why we're still discussing whether or not to get a NT is irrelevant. I don't think we lose or gain much with or without a cody. Wade likes Mitchell, that's good enough for me.

You guys don't know what you want & you're assuming alot based on 1 successful season. Reed & Barwin are likely to see teams play them differently next year..our comp in division & out of division will be getting better next year too. I don't think either of these guys is good enough to overcome what will be coming their way next year...& for that reason and a few others i think the FO needs to seriously entertain bringing Mario back.

GP
03-02-2012, 10:03 AM
I see the validity of both sides of this argument.

On one hand, you can save money and use it to re-sign everyone and/or go after FA players to try and upgrade other positions like we did on CB and S last off-season.

On the other hand, you can retain Mario and re-sign everyone and/or cut some of the guys instead of re-signing them.

The key element, IMO, is this: How effective will Mario be from this day going forward? Some say you can structure the deal to peter out in about 3 years and be done with him if he sucks rocks around year 2 or 3 or whatever. OK. But will it have been worth it to do this instead of using his money to go after others in FA? I don't know.

I do not envy the Texans FO right now. Success breeds bigger challenges, such as this one. Everyone wants to get paid. This is why Super Bowl teams lose a lot of guys after they win the big game...everybody wants to get paid like a rock star. And we haven't even won the big game yet. Le sigh....

I guess we'll have to see what the outcome is, what the Texans decide to do huh?

stingray
03-02-2012, 11:04 AM
I talked to kirwan and ryan on sirius yesterday discussing the mario williams situation. He came on today and said it sparked him to write a article that will be on nfl.com. Basically, he talks about how he can go to aj,smith,daniels,and ryans and without cutting anyone, just converting salary, and create 16m of cap space. The deal he put together was 6yrs 90m with 30m signing bonus. That would leave 10.6m of cap room to do meyers and foster. Just a heads up on how a former gm would handle it.

Were you the guy talking about his wedding coming up?

disaacks3
03-02-2012, 11:20 AM
Anyway you slice it, you are cutting our best NT in order to pay Mario. You are cutting our 3rd best WR in order to pay Mario. Then, you are spending draft picks on certain positions because you needed to make room for Mario. By the way, that $5 million only gets you part way there.

I'd simply not sign Mario and add a good WR, perhaps a better NT, maybe upgrade at CB, sign all our free agents and begin extending guys like Brown, Barwin, etc... Then, other than adding depth at OLB, we would have a complete team with great depth. So?? Our "best" NT, likely isn't as good as somebody we can get in the draft. We've seen the best that Cody can do, and he's nowhere near top-tier talent in the league at his position. Jacoby has been given his shot, I have ZERO issue with cutting him and attempting to resign him for less. If somebody else wants to pay that kinda $$ for him, that's fine. I understand you don't want to overpay for Mario, that's fine & I agree, but lets not make Cody/Jacoby out to be players they're not.

If Mario isn't here, we have real money to spend on a proven WR. That's only true if you're planning on hiring a FA receiver, otherwise, rookie pool is a different beast altogether.

thunderkyss
03-02-2012, 11:25 AM
This is simple math. Take the team we ended last season with, the one without Mario that was able to make the playoffs with a top two defense and a backup QB, add a couple of key free agents to strengthen a weak area like we did last year with the money you want to spend on Mario.

In other words subtract Mario add (examples) Marques Colston, WR and Jeremy Zuttah, G/C.

We were on our 3rd string Quarterback, yet continued to win without Mario. Still, you want to gut the team that was playing important games to pay a guy that hasn't produced 10 sacks since 2008...

You're both missing the point.

We don't have to cut anyone off the team. By restructuring Jjo, Antonio, OD, & Andre, we can free up the money to sign our big three (Myers, Foster, & Mario) plus our draft picks.

Then with the money you free up by dropping Mario's 2011 salary, that frees up $18M. You want Colston, you want Zuttah, what's stopping you? Sign them both for part of that $18M, you'll still have some left in reserve, unless you're saying those two guys are going to cost us more than Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks.

& if you still need more money, restructure Matt Schaub & Demeco Ryans.

We've still got 53 men on this roster doing it this way, plus the two guys Mussop mentioned.

You've got to cut someone, just to get to 53.

Are you saying you want to cut Mario just for a roster spot? That's stupid.

thunderkyss
03-02-2012, 11:33 AM
I see the validity of both sides of this argument.

On one hand, you can save money and use it to re-sign everyone and/or go after FA players to try and upgrade other positions like we did on CB and S last off-season.

On the other hand, you can retain Mario and re-sign everyone and/or cut some of the guys instead of re-signing them.


No GP, this thinking is false. That's all I'm arguing.

I don't care if you want Mario here or not.... just be honest about it (not you in particular).

Kirwan's article shows you how we can sign our big three plus or draft picks by restructuring contracts. You don't lose anyone. Everyone that was on "this great" team last year is on it next year, just by restructuring contracts.

Then you've got the $18M you freed up by signing Mario to a long term deal.

That's 53 players, plus your draft picks & 18M to chase whoever you want.

So if you're going to sign more players to the roster, you're going to have to cut someone, whether now or before the end of TC.

Some guys (who I think we can afford to lose) are going to create more cap space..... Jacoby, Walter, Ward, Leinart.......

Then you've still got two big contracts that you can restructure, Schaub & Demeco.

Money is not an issue. Money is not the issue. They just don't want Mario here.

b0ng
03-02-2012, 12:05 PM
Of course it could happen.... I'd only comment on why it shouldn't happen....

because he's not worth it. Notice that there is no comment on how Schaub, Quin, Barwin, Brown get extended... not to mention who/how we replace Cody and Jones

I equate this to somebody being married to a really hot wife. Everybody else sees her around with her husband and thinks about how lucky he is, but he sees her in the morning, and when she's not looking the best and is intimately aware of her shortcomings and thinks she's not worth it.

"How we replace Cody and Jones" Because there's two pieces of the puzzle we'd all rather have than Mario Williams yes. And Connor Barwin is certainly going to take a great deal for the Texans because. . .

Literally the only player I'm worried about not being able to re-sign because Mario is taking a large chunk of the cap (Which if the contract guy/GM isn't an idiot, he wouldn't sign Mario to a deal like that anyway) is Duane Brown.

amazing80
03-02-2012, 12:39 PM
You're both missing the point.

We don't have to cut anyone off the team. By restructuring Jjo, Antonio, OD, & Andre, we can free up the money to sign our big three (Myers, Foster, & Mario) plus our draft picks.

Then with the money you free up by dropping Mario's 2011 salary, that frees up $18M. You want Colston, you want Zuttah, what's stopping you? Sign them both for part of that $18M, you'll still have some left in reserve, unless you're saying those two guys are going to cost us more than Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks.

& if you still need more money, restructure Matt Schaub & Demeco Ryans.

We've still got 53 men on this roster doing it this way, plus the two guys Mussop mentioned.

You've got to cut someone, just to get to 53.

Are you saying you want to cut Mario just for a roster spot? That's stupid.


I don't think this guy is stupid enough to write an article and forget to subtract the current salaries coming off the books....pretty sure the 4 plus million is what we have NOW with those contracts off the book

b0ng
03-02-2012, 12:41 PM
I don't think this guy is stupid enough to write an article and forget to subtract the current salaries coming off the books....pretty sure the 4 plus million is what we have NOW with those contracts off the book

Pretty sure you are wrong on that one.

cbs1507
03-02-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't think this guy is stupid enough to write an article and forget to subtract the current salaries coming off the books....pretty sure the 4 plus million is what we have NOW with those contracts off the book

Pretty sure you are wrong on that one.

Yeah I'm pretty sure he's wrong too. We have 17 FAs, and only 12 roster spots (because 5 were IR replacements). If $4 million is with 17 FAs off the books then we only have $300k per player to spend (4m/12) which is LESS than the rookie minimum. League minimum on avg is around $600k. If you are right then we will have to cut more than just Mario (since according to you he and 16 other salaries put us at only $4 million under and we still have 12 roster spots to fill).

Free Agency does not start until March 13th, which is the 1st day of the new league year. Therefore the salaries from last year cannot be off the books because the 2011 season has not ended yet.

amazing80
03-02-2012, 12:49 PM
Yeah I'm pretty sure he's wrong too. We have 17 FAs, and only 12 roster spots (because 5 were IR replacements). If $4 million is with 17 FAs off the books then we only have $300k per player to spend (4m/12) which is LESS than the rookie minimum. League minimum on avg is around $600k. If you are right then we will have to cut more than just Mario.

Free Agency does not start until March 13th, which is the 1st day of the new league year. Therefore the salaries from last year cannot be off the books because the 2011 season has not ended yet.

Well maybe we're all freaking about money for no reason.....screw it, sign every one on our team and then go after V Jackson or P Garcon......DO IT

GP
03-02-2012, 12:57 PM
No GP, this thinking is false. That's all I'm arguing.

I don't care if you want Mario here or not.... just be honest about it (not you in particular).

Kirwan's article shows you how we can sign our big three plus or draft picks by restructuring contracts. You don't lose anyone. Everyone that was on "this great" team last year is on it next year, just by restructuring contracts.

Then you've got the $18M you freed up by signing Mario to a long term deal.

That's 53 players, plus your draft picks & 18M to chase whoever you want.

So if you're going to sign more players to the roster, you're going to have to cut someone, whether now or before the end of TC.

Some guys (who I think we can afford to lose) are going to create more cap space..... Jacoby, Walter, Ward, Leinart.......

Then you've still got two big contracts that you can restructure, Schaub & Demeco.

Money is not an issue. Money is not the issue. They just don't want Mario here.

Well, Mario is not transgressing against "them" that you speak of. He didn't take anything from the them. He didn't pee in their cereal this morning. I don't think we need to say the them have it out for Mario as some sort of personal vendetta the them have against Mario. I don't like how message boards tend to get that way--The "them" vs. the "they." Just my two cents on it.

The them, IMO, just happen to think that Mario is not worth the money. It's a touchy subject, as evidenced by the lengths of talks that have centered upon Mario on these boards for years. The success of the Texans defense in 2011, with the emergence of two rookies (Reed & Watt) has further complicated or exacerbated the "discussion." The water is muddied like never before.

I don't think there is a faulty logic here, on either side. The Texans can do a myriad of things if they want. That's what matters, IMO. The them you speak of does not matter. The they don't matter, either. I do not matter. You do not matter. In all honestly, there are multiple scenarios that can shake down. The possibilities are exhausting.

Some of "them" don't see the necessity of Mario. Some think it's a luxury and not a need. I can see why. Some think you do what you can and you try like hell to make him a part of this defense for years to come. I can see why, as well. I do like the philosophy mussop posited that "Just because it can be done does not mean you do it." That's a good ethical stance to take in life, let alone in the world of sports entertainment such as an NFL team managing its resources.

But we could all be surprised at how things shake down. Agents are a piece of this ingredients list that are vital. They can guide their players to do things that screw other things up. Never underestimate the possibility that things could get weird and alter plans on all fronts. We just won't know until it all unfolds before us. This much we can all agree upon.

GP
03-02-2012, 01:03 PM
I can't foresee a world where at least 2 or 3 teams WON'T throw stupid crazy cash at Mario and make it hard on him to choose to stay in Houston for less.

And I can't foresee a world where no team attempts to sign Foster to an offer sheet and thinks they can steal away a great RB for a first rounder and a lot of cap space they have this year.

Both of those, IMO, are very real possibilities. At that point, then umm...yeah, Texans better have some stuff figured out and ready to make their choice.

Just like they had to exit the Aso sweepstakes last year, and go grab a CB and a S instead...they might (key word is "might") have to make a choice here.

What team would NOT try to upset our apple cart? We wanted this level of fame and notoriety, we are getting it! Teams have painted bulls eyes on our chests. One is labeled Mario and the other is Foster.

The stakes are high. I feel confident that McNair is not a noob owner now. I feel certain that he and Rick got this. I really do.

EDIT: I also happen to think that it's possible that agents for both Mario AND Foster are not signing and maybe not even entertaining Texans offers yet...they're going to sit and wait and see what another team serves up on March 13. That franchise tag might get slapped on Foster March 12, folks. Then the Texans can have all of 2012 to work the long-term deal. Bet you donuts to dollars that Foster's agent is having him hold off on any Texans offer until offer sheets come in for their consideration! You have to have something to leverage against the Texans, but the Texans can tag slap Foster and avoid that mess. Yeah, I bet Foster gets tagged. I said it on March 2 at 1:07 p.m.

b0ng
03-02-2012, 01:05 PM
Losing Mario to a gigantic contract is one thing, but letting Arian Foster get away from our system should be more than enough to fire the **** out of Rick Smith.

amazing80
03-02-2012, 01:11 PM
I really doubt we let AF go. Sure we can tender him, but if we honestly feel like he will get away, franchising him is still an option. This weekend will be HUGE for this team. We better sign one of the 3 or come Monday we will be in a TERRIBLE spot.

Id list them in this order of IMPORTANCE

Foster
Myers
Mario


Lets see everyone else's priorities.....

Mr teX
03-02-2012, 01:12 PM
Losing Mario to a gigantic contract is one thing, but letting Arian Foster get away from our system should be more than enough to fire the **** out of Rick Smith.

seriously doubt foster goes anywhere...in fact, im not worried about him leaving this year at all. Mario on the other hand....if someone offers him stupid money to leave & he takes it..fine. What i dont ant to happen is he bolts outta here & there is no report of any offer made to him...basically it would be the texans saying bye bye to him; i think he's worth trying to pursue to a point..10 - 12 mil is my point.

cbs1507
03-02-2012, 01:41 PM
EDIT: I also happen to think that it's possible that agents for both Mario AND Foster are not signing and maybe not even entertaining Texans offers yet...they're going to sit and wait and see what another team serves up on March 13. That franchise tag might get slapped on Foster March 12, folks. Then the Texans can have all of 2012 to work the long-term deal. Bet you donuts to dollars that Foster's agent is having him hold off on any Texans offer until offer sheets come in for their consideration! You have to have something to leverage against the Texans, but the Texans can tag slap Foster and avoid that mess. Yeah, I bet Foster gets tagged. I said it on March 2 at 1:07 p.m.

If they are going to franchise Foster the deadline is actually March 5th (Monday) not March 13th. So we better tag him quick if we had plans on it. Mario made a little over $18 million last year. We could use about $7.7 million of it for Foster's tag number, then try to use the rest (about $11 million) to offer to Mario. The other guys can be sign by restructuring a few contracts because they will be much cheaper than these 2.

thunderkyss
03-02-2012, 02:40 PM
I really doubt we let AF go. Sure we can tender him, but if we honestly feel like he will get away, franchising him is still an option. This weekend will be HUGE for this team. We better sign one of the 3 or come Monday we will be in a TERRIBLE spot.

Id list them in this order of IMPORTANCE

Foster
Myers
Mario


Lets see everyone else's priorities.....

I used to think it was Mario, Myers, Foster, being that Foster is a restricted FA. My thinking is we have to sign the unrestricted guys before FA. Once they get to open waters, the money get's stupid & I personally wouldn't want to get into that bidding war..... not even for our own FAs.

Now, same thing applies to Foster. If he gets to test the waters, we'll have to match some ridiculous number or let him go.

Monday is the deadline to put the tag on. So Foster is my first priority. If we don't have a deal in place, I'm franchising him to keep him from talking to other teams. Then I'll try to get him signed before OTAs.

Then Mario. I want to make him a good faith offer before March 13. If he doesn't take it, I'm fine with that, but I'll go onto plan B that doesn't include Mario Williams. I'm not getting into a bidding war with deep-pocketed, desperate teams.

Then Myers. Yes, he's the center-piece of the OL. I do not want to lose him. But, how bad can the market drive up his price? I'll make him an offer as well, before March 13. If he takes it great, if he doesn't, I plan on going on without him, but I'll let him know my deal still stands if he chooses to come back.

dalemurphy
03-02-2012, 03:12 PM
So?? Our "best" NT, likely isn't as good as somebody we can get in the draft. We've seen the best that Cody can do, and he's nowhere near top-tier talent in the league at his position. Jacoby has been given his shot, I have ZERO issue with cutting him and attempting to resign him for less. If somebody else wants to pay that kinda $$ for him, that's fine. I understand you don't want to overpay for Mario, that's fine & I agree, but lets not make Cody/Jacoby out to be players they're not.

That's only true if you're planning on hiring a FA receiver, otherwise, rookie pool is a different beast altogether.

Look. I would love to see Jacoby get cut. However, I want him cut because the Texans have upgraded the WR position, not further downgraded it in order to fit Mario's monster contract into the cap.

I don't want the starting NT for a great defense to be cut in his prime because he's making $2.5 million. Sorry but that is crazy! Not only does it not make sense from a football standpoint, but those are the kinds of moves that can divide a locker room. How do you think those players that were part of the 2011 defense going to feel when they are all asked to take cuts in pay so Mario can be given a contract near $100 million? I don't think it is a poplular move. Think about the precedent that sets moving forward as an organization.

disaacks3
03-02-2012, 03:21 PM
Look. I would love to see Jacoby get cut. However, I want him cut because the Texans have upgraded the WR position, not further downgraded it in order to fit Mario's monster contract into the cap.

I don't want the starting NT for a great defense to be cut in his prime because he's making $2.5 million. Sorry but that is crazy! Not only does it not make sense from a football standpoint, but those are the kinds of moves that can divide a locker room. How do you think those players that were part of the 2011 defense going to feel when they are all asked to take cuts in pay so Mario can be given a contract near $100 million? I don't think it is a poplular move. Think about the precedent that sets moving forward as an organization. I think they'll think it sucks. But....that's part of life in the NFL. If players spent all their time thinking about what everyone else was making, they'd have stopped playing together long ago. The players KNOW that Mario is "the stud". That said, you tread very carefully when asking folks like AJ/Schaub to restructure.

As for Cody, we'll agree to disagree...in my view he's not some sort of lynchpin, he's a worker bee.

leebigeztx
03-02-2012, 03:32 PM
Were you the guy talking about his wedding coming up?


No, that's jermaine, I'm eric from houston.

leebigeztx
03-02-2012, 04:03 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=stl

Also,I hear people talking about meyers, another player they can't franchise. A problem is the last contract signed, brown, got 5yr 35m with 20m guarantee and 24m in the 1st 2 yrs. Are the texans ready to do a deal like that for meyers?

noxiousdog
03-02-2012, 05:07 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=stl

Also,I hear people talking about meyers, another player they can't franchise. A problem is the last contract signed, brown, got 5yr 35m with 20m guarantee and 24m in the 1st 2 yrs. Are the texans ready to do a deal like that for meyers?

I can't imagine a center getting a contract that big.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

stingray
03-02-2012, 05:27 PM
No, that's jermaine, I'm eric from houston.

Ohh, Ok. I have heard you also. He also talked to jermaine for a bit about signing Mario and Arian.

dalemurphy
03-02-2012, 05:48 PM
No, that's jermaine, I'm eric from houston.

Ahh, yes. I've heard you call the show for years. You are a knowledge football fan but a mild Texan fan. This explains a lot of our differences. You haven't been emotionally invested in this franchise the way some of us have been... which is fine. But, it does explain some of the differences in perspectives.

Also, Kirwan has never had much of a handle on the Texans. Because he has no inside contacts within the organization, he has few insights on it, IMO. I remember that late in 2009 he argued rather strongly that the Cincinnati Bengals were a much more talented team than the Texans and had a brighter future. That was silliness and is indicative of his lack of knowledge concerning the Texans.

GP
03-02-2012, 05:52 PM
Ahh, yes. I've heard you call the show for years. You are a knowledge football fan but a mild Texan fan. This explains a lot of our differences. You haven't been emotionally invested in this franchise the way some of us have been... which is fine. But, it does explain some of the differences in perspectives.

Also, Kirwan has never had much of a handle on the Texans. Because he has no inside contacts within the organization, he has few insights on it, IMO. I remember that late in 2009 he argued rather strongly that the Cincinnati Bengals were a much more talented team than the Texans and had a brighter future. That was silliness and is indicative of his lack of knowledge concerning the Texans.

Dude. Seriously?

(sigh)

Put the Super Fan Koolaid down for a second. I can't believe you'd say that, in that way, on here. And then to go on about Kirwan not being knowledgeable?

I don't know what else to say.

dalemurphy
03-02-2012, 06:35 PM
Dude. Seriously?

(sigh)

Put the Super Fan Koolaid down for a second. I can't believe you'd say that, in that way, on here. And then to go on about Kirwan not being knowledgeable?

I don't know what else to say.

No insult intended. I've heard him on that show for years. I'm not claiming to be a super fan. He was simply not particularly focused on the Texans for years. He has acknowledged as much before on the show... often calling to talk about teams like San Diego. I was just commenting on the different perspectives we have contributing to how we see things differently.

Also, I'm not saying Kirwan isn't knowledgeable. I'm saying he's not in touch with the Texans because of a lack of connections to them. This is something pretty widespread in the media. The Texans get less coverage, not only because they have stunk for so long, but also because the organization has a small inner circle.

If the previous post sounded like an insult toward Leebigeztx then I simply worded it poorly.

leebigeztx
03-02-2012, 10:16 PM
So dale, I don't know the texans because I can spek about every team in the league? My sig says it all because that's me. I record the texans every week and I also record and watch a lot of teams. Just because I talk or give my review of a team not named the texans has 0 to do with our disagreements. I'm objective and u think mario is average. I. Think mario is an elite player playing an elite position. You think he's easily replaceable. Because of the way the defense played without him. That's our disagreement. If he leaves because he just wants to leave, so be it. I think the texans will offer him a very attractive deal.

You won't like it and neither will some of the others that follow the way you think. Mario, despite his injuries, most of which he played through, is an elite talent and player. Look around the league and attempt to find a guy who can rush and play the run. Look at the defenses he's played wth when the next leding pass rusher had 2 sack and a secondary leaving windows wide open like its summertime. All those game changers and elite guys u mention always had others. One yr with wade in dallas, they led the league in sacks. In that season,ellis had 10, james had 8,and ratliff had 8 to help ware. Mario has never had a guy with more than 5. Freeney has always had mathis.when allen was in kc, hali was getting 8 sacks. Allen goes to minny, williams wall pushing the pocket in the qbs face. Merriman? In sd, casillas on the dl had 8 sacks along with sean phillips. I could continue, but just like in the other thread, ur mind is made up. So, I guess we will see soon enough.

GP
03-03-2012, 06:51 AM
He's a mild Texans fan because he also chooses to educate himself about other teams, to call into a show and speak about more than just the Texans?

What national sports analyst IS a guy who knows the Texans inside and out, and can focus solely on the Texans? They have 31 other teams to look at and discuss on their shows. That's why ESPN developed the blog system where a guy like Kuharsky covers the AFC South.

You're trying to discredit a fellow fan and a pretty solid national analyst. I would re-think that strategy, if I were you.

Look at his avatar. It's all AFC South teams with Homer being the Texans fan. Translation. Lee is a Texans homer. Doh!

TheMatrix31
03-03-2012, 09:01 AM
All these numbers are just killing my brain. Have no concept of it. These damn CBAs for sports are so convoluted. Not surprising.

Wake me up when we've got it figured out, lol.

thunderkyss
03-03-2012, 10:00 AM
All these numbers are just killing my brain. Have no concept of it. These damn CBAs for sports are so convoluted. Not surprising.

Wake me up when we've got it figured out, lol.

The thing that gets me, is that if sports players can get this kind of profit sharing from the owners, imagine what we could have accomplished if the our Unions weren't so small minded & corrupt.

Lucky
03-03-2012, 10:37 AM
All these numbers are just killing my brain. Have no concept of it. These damn CBAs for sports are so convoluted. Not surprising.

Wake me up when we've got it figured out, lol.

I hear ya. There was a time when there were guys on the internet that had the salary caps pretty well figured out. Those guys seem to have given up due to the lack of information released by teams/agents. No one but the contract guys in the NFL really know what is going on. Doesn't stop the media or some fans from proclaiming that they do.

infantrycak
03-03-2012, 11:12 AM
I hear ya. There was a time when there were guys on the internet that had the salary caps pretty well figured out. Those guys seem to have given up due to the lack of information released by teams/agents. No one but the contract guys in the NFL really know what is going on. Doesn't stop the media or some fans from proclaiming that they do.

You used to be able to go the the NFLPA website and get official contract information. They removed that option or hid it from public view a couple years ago.

ObsiWan
03-03-2012, 12:26 PM
You used to be able to go the the NFLPA website and get official contract information. They removed that option or hid it from public view a couple years ago.

Wonder why they thought that was a positive thing to do..?

mussop
03-03-2012, 12:35 PM
Lol...so your plan is to cut a guy whom you & dale call "injury prone" to add another injury prone player in Marques Colston?

No I never said Mario is injury prone. I said its stupid to spend that big of a chunk of cap space on one player. Maybe you should quite getting your little feelings hurt every time someone mentions that resigning Mario might not be the best move for us. Colston was just an example hence the word "example" in front of his name.

What's more is that you have this same line of thinking with regards to resigning Brisiel.......another guy who's missed 20+ games in 3 different seasons for us.

Other important players that currently play big roles in our success have been injured (Ryans, Breisal) and there isn't a whole lot of quality backups behind them should they go down again. This is exactly why IMO we should use that money to strengthen our depth.

Meanwhile you've got dale spewing his usual garbage as if its a certainty that the FA's are gonna wanna come here or if we'll even be able to afford them.....or even if they'll have any more of an impact that the guys we have here now.

I can't control what Dale says but I happen to agree with him on this one. Why wouldn't a vet FA want ot come here. There is lots to like about this franchise right now. If we could afford this monstrous contract you think Mario deserves then why couldn't we afford some quality depth through FA? Seems like simple math to me.

Why we're still discussing whether or not to get a NT is irrelevant. I don't think we lose or gain much with or without a cody. Wade likes Mitchell, that's good enough for me.

I wasn't in that discussion but, If we cut Cody and Mitchell goes down, who takes his place? Who do we even put in the rotation or do you suggest Mitchell doesn't ever need to come off the field? On top of that you (nor I) have any idea how important to the locker room Cody is. Stats aren't the only thing that determines a players value to a team.

You guys don't know what you want & you're assuming alot based on 1 successful season. Reed & Barwin are likely to see teams play them differently next year..our comp in division & out of division will be getting better next year too. I don't think either of these guys is good enough to overcome what will be coming their way next year...& for that reason and a few others i think the FO needs to seriously entertain bringing Mario back.

You are assuming a lot. They played well all season and actually picked it up a notch in the playoffs. You don't think that was tough competition? You don't think those teams made adjustments for them?

I want Mario back! I just want him back at a price that doesn't lock us up against the cap where we can't keep improving our depth. I don't think he is a game changer that deserves one of the biggest contracts in league history.

mussop
03-03-2012, 12:37 PM
You're both missing the point.

We don't have to cut anyone off the team. By restructuring Jjo, Antonio, OD, & Andre, we can free up the money to sign our big three (Myers, Foster, & Mario) plus our draft picks.

Then with the money you free up by dropping Mario's 2011 salary, that frees up $18M. You want Colston, you want Zuttah, what's stopping you? Sign them both for part of that $18M, you'll still have some left in reserve, unless you're saying those two guys are going to cost us more than Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks.

& if you still need more money, restructure Matt Schaub & Demeco Ryans.

We've still got 53 men on this roster doing it this way, plus the two guys Mussop mentioned.

You've got to cut someone, just to get to 53.

Are you saying you want to cut Mario just for a roster spot? That's stupid.

If this is true then fine. I just find it hard to believe we can do all that and still be in good enough shape next year to resign all our big FA's.

Lucky
03-03-2012, 03:29 PM
No one but the contract guys in the NFL really know what is going on.
I'm wrong. Not even the capologists know what the cap is, because the NFL and the NFLPA are still determining what the cap number will be (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/03/source-league-union-scrambling-to-push-up-2012-cap-number/).

So why don’t teams know, only 10 days away from the launch of a new league year, the 2012 salary cap?


A source with knowledge of the situation tells PFT that the league and the NFLPA currently are “scrambling” to increase the tentative number.
Yet there are a ton of experts (both paid and amateur) who claim to know where teams' salary caps lie. Horsehockey!

Mr teX
03-03-2012, 04:42 PM
No I never said Mario is injury prone. I said its stupid to spend that big of a chunk of cap space on one player. Maybe you should quite getting your little feelings hurt every time someone mentions that resigning Mario might not be the best move for us. Colston was just an example hence the word "example" in front of his name.

point taken although my feelings aren't getting hurt, i just want those opposing to acknowledge every factor in play.

Other important players that currently play big roles in our success have been injured (Ryans, Breisal) and there isn't a whole lot of quality backups behind them should they go down again. This is exactly why IMO we should use that money to strengthen our depth.

Don't know what team you're watching but there's plenty of quality depth behind Ryans & Cush. Dobbins did fine in spots for Ryans last year & even sharpton coming back from injury is quality depth. It's part of the reason many think that Ryan's contract should be restructured. Other than that, We get our swing tackle Rashard Butler back (who if you recall acquitted himself nicely stepping in for Brown for 4 games in 2010) & we also get Studdard back from injury. The other thing is you're totaling discounting the draft as a place to find this depth. The reality of it is, every team has a weakness & depth is usually every teams' weakness depending on who goes down...You think that if Brees or Brady went down for the season their respective teams are going to have the same offense? What about Willis in SF or Polamalu for Pitt? Finding quality depth is a problem that all teams have to deal with; we aren't any different.


I can't control what Dale says but I happen to agree with him on this one. Why wouldn't a vet FA want ot come here. There is lots to like about this franchise right now. If we could afford this monstrous contract you think Mario deserves then why couldn't we afford some quality depth through FA? Seems like simple math to me.

The same reason a guy like Aso didn't want to come here last year..b/c someone paid them more.



I wasn't in that discussion but, If we cut Cody and Mitchell goes down, who takes his place? Who do we even put in the rotation or do you suggest Mitchell doesn't ever need to come off the field? On top of that you (nor I) have any idea how important to the locker room Cody is. Stats aren't the only thing that determines a players value to a team.

If we played a traditional 3-4 with a 400 lb beast in the middle, then yeah, we'd need to get a NT from somewhere; but we don't & this is precisely why bringing Mario back would be more advantageous to us. He's easily our most versatile front 7 guy & you could insert him anywhere along the line & at OLB in Wade's 3-4 & be fine. If Mitchell needs a blow, you can slide mario, smith or even watt in at the nose for a few plays. If you don't go that route, then yeah go ahead & draft a young kid & pay him less than half of what Cody's making to sit on the bench. Lets stop with overplaying Cody's worth here; he's a funny guy and all, but i don't think anyone on the team looks at this guy as a leader & he's not much of a factor anywhere...yes, that's my opinion.



You are assuming a lot. They played well all season and actually picked it up a notch in the playoffs. You don't think that was tough competition? You don't think those teams made adjustments for them?

I'm not assuming alot at all. Teams will play them differently & the teams in our division will get better; Hell 2 of them already have different HC's from last year & 2 others will likely have different more talented starting qbs. The other thing is your premise about them playing well all season just isn't true. the immediate 2 games when mario went out, we lost & got hammered by Baltimore. The schedule opened up & they started to really click but then we faltered late in the season against the colt & got hammered by the Panthers. The titans game was a wash. Then when we got in the playoffs We'd seen both of those teams in the reg. season so there was familiarity there. The other end of that is neither of those teams we faced in the playoffs had an elite offense or qb. We may not be so lucky next year.

I want Mario back! I just want him back at a price that doesn't lock us up against the cap where we can't keep improving our depth. I don't think he is a game changer that deserves one of the biggest contracts in league history.

As far as the last part, we're already up against the cap & we haven't signed anyone yet; all in all though both of us are on the same page here. I don't think anyone of us is advocating giving mario the world...but there needs to be an attempt made to keep him here......with a contract that's reasonable for both parties.

mussop
03-03-2012, 04:50 PM
Tune in to 610 now they are talking about this

GP
03-03-2012, 05:38 PM
I'm wrong. Not even the capologists know what the cap is, because the NFL and the NFLPA are still determining what the cap number will be (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/03/source-league-union-scrambling-to-push-up-2012-cap-number/).

Yet there are a ton of experts (both paid and amateur) who claim to know where teams' salary caps lie. Horsehockey!

This is why I don't "get" the whole drama from some people about how we can or cannot afford to sign one, or two, or all or whatever of our guys. It's been funny to watch everyone throw out these numbers. Nobody is the same, and if they are they're copying someone else's printed estimate from some other site.

I said, last week, that all of this--from all sides--is just conjecture and speculation about what we can or cannot afford to do. The underlying principle should be that no matter what we can or cannot do...we NEED to be smart with the dough and think about this year and the next.

Mussop, and I'll say it again, has a smart idea when he says "Just because we CAN afford to re-sign someone doesn't mean that we SHOULD." Now, as to which guys the Texans decide are essential and which are not? I think that's going to shake itself out according to how the agents of all those players decide to negotiate with the Texans. That's when guys you thought were "sure things" might be headed to the exit, and that's going to determine how the dominos fall for the remainder of players in the pool.

I think that's about as simplistic as it can get.

steelbtexan
03-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Tell me if I'm wrong?

Basically the Texans can let MW walk and reup all of the 2012 and 2013 potential FA's. As well as maybe signing 1 of the following FA's WR/NT/CB/OLB? As well as being a player when the cap goes up before the 2013 season.

Sign me up for this.

MW is a great player, but I'm keeping this team together and hopefully adding more pieces in the draft. I wonder how much of the MW love is because he was the 1st pick the Texans got right? (VY, Bush)

You do know MW wasn't the best DL in that draft. That distinction belongs to Ngata.

dalemurphy
03-03-2012, 06:03 PM
So dale, I don't know the texans because I can spek about every team in the league? My sig says it all because that's me. I record the texans every week and I also record and watch a lot of teams. Just because I talk or give my review of a team not named the texans has 0 to do with our disagreements. I'm objective and u think mario is average. I. Think mario is an elite player playing an elite position. You think he's easily replaceable. Because of the way the defense played without him. That's our disagreement. If he leaves because he just wants to leave, so be it. I think the texans will offer him a very attractive deal.

You won't like it and neither will some of the others that follow the way you think. Mario, despite his injuries, most of which he played through, is an elite talent and player. Look around the league and attempt to find a guy who can rush and play the run. Look at the defenses he's played wth when the next leding pass rusher had 2 sack and a secondary leaving windows wide open like its summertime. All those game changers and elite guys u mention always had others. One yr with wade in dallas, they led the league in sacks. In that season,ellis had 10, james had 8,and ratliff had 8 to help ware. Mario has never had a guy with more than 5. Freeney has always had mathis.when allen was in kc, hali was getting 8 sacks. Allen goes to minny, williams wall pushing the pocket in the qbs face. Merriman? In sd, casillas on the dl had 8 sacks along with sean phillips. I could continue, but just like in the other thread, ur mind is made up. So, I guess we will see soon enough.

I apologize for the way my earlier post was worded. It was not my intent to label you, though I clearly did. (Thank you, GP, for pointing that out to me)


You are correct that we are not going to agree. I don't care about sack totals from individuals. Whether Mario would end up with 8 sacks or 20 is insignificant to me. I'm only concerned about the end product of the defense. The one thing I learned last year is that the defense can be great without Mario. While it is very likely that it would be great with him as well, it has never happened for any length of time in six seasons. Does that mean he's not an excellent player? no. Does that mean it seems imprudent for the Texans to pay him a significant chunk of their cap? I think so.

As an aside to the central issue, I happen to believe Mario's motor is inconsistent. I don't think that is true of the other talent on defense. As a fan, I don't like it. Also, I think the disparity in his hustle and that of others could lead to some problems on the team. I know I'm in the minority with this opinion. I have supplied evidence to support it. Many disagree. That's fine.

Understand, though, I was thrilled with the Mario draft pick. I have been a fan throughout his career until I began noticing this trend midway through the 2009 season. Watching him next to Antonio Smith the past couple years is what first caught my eye... and then next to Cushing and J.J. Watt. I don't see the passion and violence in his effort that I see with the others. What I've noticed turned out to be legitimate as Mario was playing injured during the 2009 and 2010 seasons.

Entering the 2011 season healthy, I hoped to see better energy. When reviewing his play this season, I thought he still took too many players off and/or didn't play through the whistle. Maybe I'm hyper-sensitive to it because of that abortion of a season he had in 2010 due to his attempt to play through the sports hernia. But, that is the conclusion I have made.

leebigeztx
03-03-2012, 07:34 PM
Dale, I'm good bro, I'm hard to label or offend. I just remember 2009 all too well. I remember the way the team played after the poor start to finish strong defensively the year prior. I remember the team finsihing 13th and being one of the tops in forcing 3 and outs. The next yr, frank bush in hand,and they let dunta go and cut reeves. People on this board talked about how everything would be fine because we had this new rookie and a 2nd yr guy in quinn back there to take over. I remember telling people you have to replace talent with talent. Look what happened. The texans had one of the worse defenses possible and bush got fired. Ryans goes down,cushing didn't play well and it was a disaster.

Fast forward to now and there is a lot of conjecture the same way. Mario is a much better player and people think reed and barwin can replace mario. I like barwin a lot more than reed. Reed is a effort guy who will get sacks either on blown assignments or on qb holding the ball too long. Thing is, 1 injury to either barwin,reed,watts,or smith and the wheels will come off of this defense. The chargers had great defenses at times when merriman was out, but once he never regained his form and left,their defense has never been the same. If they lose mario, their 1st rd pick will be a rush end/olb, book it. I don't have a problem with that if that's what happen. If the resign mario, their 1st pick might be a wr or 5 tech, don't have a problem with that either. Its quiet and that's a good thing. Their working on it and that's good. I know we will know before free agency.

GP
03-03-2012, 07:43 PM
I apologize for the way my earlier post was worded. It was not my intent to label you, though I clearly did.

Dale, I'm good bro...

:cry2:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/479/604/crazy10_display_image.jpg?1319593913

dalemurphy
03-03-2012, 07:58 PM
Dale, I'm good bro, I'm hard to label or offend. I just remember 2009 all too well. I remember the way the team played after the poor start to finish strong defensively the year prior. I remember the team finsihing 13th and being one of the tops in forcing 3 and outs. The next yr, frank bush in hand,and they let dunta go and cut reeves. People on this board talked about how everything would be fine because we had this new rookie and a 2nd yr guy in quinn back there to take over. I remember telling people you have to replace talent with talent. Look what happened. The texans had one of the worse defenses possible and bush got fired. Ryans goes down,cushing didn't play well and it was a disaster.

Fast forward to now and there is a lot of conjecture the same way. Mario is a much better player and people think reed and barwin can replace mario. I like barwin a lot more than reed. Reed is a effort guy who will get sacks either on blown assignments or on qb holding the ball too long. Thing is, 1 injury to either barwin,reed,watts,or smith and the wheels will come off of this defense. The chargers had great defenses at times when merriman was out, but once he never regained his form and left,their defense has never been the same. If they lose mario, their 1st rd pick will be a rush end/olb, book it. I don't have a problem with that if that's what happen. If the resign mario, their 1st pick might be a wr or 5 tech, don't have a problem with that either. Its quiet and that's a good thing. Their working on it and that's good. I know we will know before free agency.

I agree with your assessment of Reed, though I do have hope that he will continue to develop. I'm not excited about Reed's ability to replace Mario. Perhaps I've not been clear about that. I do think that Reed and Barwin's ability to drop into coverage (increasing disguise of the defense) does help to overcome the loss of a player like Mario. I simply don't trust Mario to stay on the field and stay motivated on the field. While that is clearly a knock on Mario, I would be extending this argument to all but a dozen players in the league. I simply do not believe in paying one player (other than a QB) the kind of money Mario is going to command. I've been very bullish on Rick Smith also and trust him to continue to add talent to the team.

GP
03-03-2012, 08:14 PM
I agree with your assessment of Reed, though I do have hope that he will continue to develop. I'm not excited about Reed's ability to replace Mario. Perhaps I've not been clear about that. I do think that Reed and Barwin's ability to drop into coverage (increasing disguise of the defense) does help to overcome the loss of a player like Mario. I simply don't trust Mario to stay on the field and stay motivated on the field. While that is clearly a knock on Mario, I would be extending this argument to all but a dozen players in the league. I simply do not believe in paying one player (other than a QB) the kind of money Mario is going to command. I've been very bullish on Rick Smith also and trust him to continue to add talent to the team.

I have to wonder if the sheer fact of Wade's 34 Defense using FOUR linebackers is what has made this team's D what it was in 2011.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Reed and Barwin a bit taller/larger than the typical 43 Defense LB? They're not giants or anything, but they are also not short(er) like Ryans and Cushing are. They're that mix of DE and LB.

I think the combination of using smaller LBs and larger LBs, which in essence gets you four LBs out there instead of the normal 3, is what has made this defense rebound.

They grabbed a quality, dependable CB and S in free agency. They hit on a quality DL in JJ Watt in the draft. One of those "larger" LBs I'm talking about was our 2nd rounder in the previous draft, as well. And then you have Cushing and Barwin as returning LBs to mix in with those 2011 free agents I just mentioned. Antonio Smith and a mix of Cody and Mitchell added consistency, too.

You look at all of that, and it's frankly easy to see how this D succeeded without Mario. I think the idea that Mario wants to go to a team that has a 43 Defense is plausible. Then again, it's just as plausible he would see that he can excel in Houston in 2012 with all that's around him.

There's tough decisions to be made on all sides. Mario has to determine if he wants a big payday or what will likely be a lesser payday for the sake of having a comfort zone of being in as sure of a thing as anybody could be in. The Texans have to determine what they can reasonably pay him. And then there's teams who will woo him and tell him HE is their focal point in a 43 Defense.

Oh, then there's Arian Foster. And a slew of other Texans to take care of.

I happen to think Brooks Reed, Connor Barwin, JJ Watt, Antonio Smith, and Brian Cushing are the anchors of our defense up front. Joseph and Manning handle the backside. Everyone else is a role player who holds down their assignments and takes what they can get, when the times come their way.

I'm fine with Brooks Reed. I think he was a bargain in the 2nd round. Should have gone in the first round. These guys are young, too--Another bonus.

thunderkyss
03-04-2012, 01:20 AM
I have to wonder if the sheer fact of Wade's 34 Defense using FOUR linebackers is what has made this team's D what it was in 2011.

I think the combination of using smaller LBs and larger LBs, which in essence gets you four LBs out there instead of the normal 3, is what has made this defense rebound.

I've said it before. The biggest difference in the 2011 defense & the 2010 defense was that Wade understood that it all started with getting pressure on the LOS. Whether getting after the QB or stopping the run. In 2011 you saw our boys playing behind the LOS, just like you did in 2009.

I chalk that up to Frank Bush's inexperience.

They grabbed a quality, dependable CB and S in free agency. They hit on a quality DL in JJ Watt in the draft. One of those "larger" LBs I'm talking about was our 2nd rounder in the previous draft, as well. And then you have Cushing and Barwin as returning LBs to mix in with those 2011 free agents I just mentioned. Antonio Smith and a mix of Cody and Mitchell added consistency, too.

As good as they were, this was a "career" year for Jjo. Quin looked "good" but 2009 Pollard "looked" better.

The key was the pressure generated by the front 7. 2009 we generated much pressure from that group. in 2010 not so much. 2011 we generated much pressure again.


You look at all of that, and it's frankly easy to see how this D succeeded without Mario. I think the idea that Mario wants to go to a team that has a 43 Defense is plausible. Then again, it's just as plausible he would see that he can excel in Houston in 2012 with all that's around him.

dalemurphy has a point. A smaller more athletic linebaker who can drop into coverage would add more versatility to the defense, making them more unpredictable.

However, I've seen nothing to indicate Reed or Barwin are any more athletic than Mario. Personally, I don't think they are any better in coverage than Mario. Our success, I think is that we bring an extra safety in on passing situations. A safety is a better coverage LB (basically). Bigger than a CB, better tackler...... smaller than a LB better pass protector.

What Mario lacks in agility, he makes up for in brute strength. Being able to drop to 4-3 DE & effectively rush the passer makes him the perfect player for Wade's system.


I happen to think Brooks Reed, Connor Barwin, JJ Watt, Antonio Smith, and Brian Cushing are the anchors of our defense up front. Joseph and Manning handle the backside. Everyone else is a role player who holds down their assignments and takes what they can get, when the times come their way.

I'm fine with Brooks Reed. I think he was a bargain in the 2nd round. Should have gone in the first round. These guys are young, too--Another bonus.

At the end of 2009, we had a very similar list.

Bullman was IR'd before the 2010 season. Barwin IR'd week 1. Cushing got pregnant, missed the first 4 games. Demeco tore his Achilles & missed the last 10.

Eugene Wilson lost a step (I know, some called this before the 2010 season). Bernard Pollard was exposed. Kj didn't meet expectations.


What could go wrong in 2011?

My whole contention, is if we bring Mario back, our defense is set. We can dedicate our 2012 draft on the offensive side of the ball. We can focus on BPA if we want.

Without Mario, one of the first two picks should address outside pass rush. Nothing against Barwin or Reed, but we need a better rotation than Brahman & Nading provide.

dalemurphy
03-04-2012, 07:27 AM
My whole contention, is if we bring Mario back, our defense is set. We can dedicate our 2012 draft on the offensive side of the ball. We can focus on BPA if we want.

Without Mario, one of the first two picks should address outside pass rush. Nothing against Barwin or Reed, but we need a better rotation than Brahman & Nading provide.

No. Without Mario, we need to get a quality replacement in free agency. There are a number of guys available that will cost 1/2 (or less) than Mario will. I do not want to let Mario go and not replace him with a veteran. Here is an incomplete list of potential FA replacements:

Cliff Avril
Robert Mathis
A. Spencer
Matt Roth
Jarret Johnson
M. Lawson
A. Maybin
M. Anderson....

I had Ahmad Brooks on the list but he has re-signed a 6yr $43 million deal.
The two most compelling reasons to let Mario go are these:

1. Be able to re-sign and lock up the following: Duane Brown, Foster, Barwin, Myers, etc.. and maintain good cap health moving forward.

2. Have flexibility to grab quality veterans at WR, CB, OLB so that we enter the draft without any glaring needs.

Mr teX
03-04-2012, 09:08 AM
No. Without Mario, we need to get a quality replacement in free agency. There are a number of guys available that will cost 1/2 (or less) than Mario will. I do not want to let Mario go and not replace him with a veteran. Here is an incomplete list of potential FA replacements:

Cliff Avril
Robert Mathis
A. Spencer
Matt Roth
Jarret Johnson
M. Lawson
A. Maybin
M. Anderson....

I had Ahmad Brooks on the list but he has re-signed a 6yr $43 million deal.
The two most compelling reasons to let Mario go are these:

1. Be able to re-sign and lock up the following: Duane Brown, Foster, Barwin, Myers, etc.. and maintain good cap health moving forward.

2. Have flexibility to grab quality veterans at WR, CB, OLB so that we enter the draft without any glaring needs.

cliff avril wants big money..cant see why us signing him vs. keeping mario is a big difference.

mathis is probably the only guy that can play a 3-4 if the new coach decides to go that route.

spencer has been failure for the cowboys in the 3-4..why would you want to bring him here?

you get the picture...signing any of these guys isn't a guarantee & we may still end up picking a guy up in the draft. u know what is a gurantee though? Us losing a bonafide elite pass rusher if mario bolts.

dalemurphy
03-04-2012, 09:36 AM
cliff avril wants big money..cant see why us signing him vs. keeping mario is a big difference.

mathis is probably the only guy that can play a 3-4 if the new coach decides to go that route.

spencer has been failure for the cowboys in the 3-4..why would you want to bring him here?

you get the picture...signing any of these guys isn't a guarantee & we may still end up picking a guy up in the draft. u know what is a gurantee though? Us losing a bonafide elite pass rusher if mario bolts.

I'd rather have Avril for 5yrs and $40 million than Mario for 6yrs and $100 million. I don't know for sure that those would be the numbers, but I believe this is the ballpark we'd be talking about.

Spencer has been a success and a failure. I trust the Texans' brass, in conjunction with Wade, to determine whether he would be productive for the Texans or not. I'm not too caught up in names... I'm just trying to point out that other, cheaper options are our there and I would want a veteran replacement.

b0ng
03-04-2012, 10:07 AM
I'd rather have Avril for 5yrs and $40 million than Mario for 6yrs and $100 million. I don't know for sure that those would be the numbers, but I believe this is the ballpark we'd be talking about.

Spencer has been a success and a failure. I trust the Texans' brass, in conjunction with Wade, to determine whether he would be productive for the Texans or not. I'm not too caught up in names... I'm just trying to point out that other, cheaper options are our there and I would want a veteran replacement.

Avril would not sign a 5 year 40 million deal which is why he is going to get franchised by the Lions. And Anthony Spencer is so far away from Mario Williams in terms of athleticism and talent we'd be better off just drafting a guy and hoping he's good while he's cheap than overpaying a guy like that in FA. Why overpay any one of those guys over a player like MW?

thunderkyss
03-04-2012, 10:15 AM
I'd rather have Avril for 5yrs and $40 million than Mario for 6yrs and $100 million. I don't know for sure that those would be the numbers, but I believe this is the ballpark we'd be talking about.

Spencer has been a success and a failure. I trust the Texans' brass, in conjunction with Wade, to determine whether he would be productive for the Texans or not. I'm not too caught up in names... I'm just trying to point out that other, cheaper options are our there and I would want a veteran replacement.

Unless these guys see the Texans as contenders, we're going to have to over pay.... that's the way FA works.

As the #2 DE (according to Scout.com) in FA, we'll have to over pay to get Cliff Avril (remember Antonio Smith?). So if my choice is to over pay Cliff Avril or get Mario for fair value, I'm going for Mario for fair value.

I've said plenty of times we should not over-pay for Mario.

Now, you may be right, the Texans may be a destination FAs think are contenders.... we really won't know till after the FA period. Or, maybe we've had enough success that Rick Smith can sell this organization as a contender..... would be nice, but we won't know until he does.

If we're not going to over-pay, we'll have to sit around & wait to see who no one else wants.... which doesn't sound like a good plan to improve your team.

Also doesn't make sense to let the best outside pass rusher in FA (arguably the best defensive FA, maybe best FA period) go & search for his replacement in the same FA period.

dalemurphy
03-04-2012, 10:17 AM
Unless these guys see the Texans as contenders, we're going to have to over pay.... that's the way FA works.

As the #2 DE (according to Scout.com) in FA, we'll have to over pay to get Cliff Avril (remember Antonio Smith?). So if my choice is to over pay Cliff Avril or get Mario for fair value, I'm going for Mario for fair value.

I've said plenty of times we should not over-pay for Mario.

Now, you may be right, the Texans may be a destination FAs think are contenders.... we really won't know till after the FA period. Or, maybe we've had enough success that Rick Smith can sell this organization as a contender..... would be nice, but we won't know until he does.

If we're not going to over-pay, we'll have to sit around & wait to see who no one else wants.... which doesn't sound like a good plan to improve your team.

Also doesn't make sense to let the best outside pass rusher in FA (arguably the best defensive FA, maybe best FA period) go & search for his replacement in the same FA period.

I don't recommend overpaying. It's a strong free agent class and about half the teams (most of the good ones) have little money to spend. Therefore, while I can't sit here and identify names, many quality players will be available at a discount. I have no idea whether that will be Avril, Spencer, JJohnson, Mathis, or any one of a dozen others.

Dutchrudder
03-04-2012, 11:52 AM
I don't recommend overpaying. It's a strong free agent class and about half the teams (most of the good ones) have little money to spend. Therefore, while I can't sit here and identify names, many quality players will be available at a discount. I have no idea whether that will be Avril, Spencer, JJohnson, Mathis, or any one of a dozen others.

WR is the strength of this free agency class. I would much rather get a guy like Reggie Wayne for 3 years 18 mill rather than trying to sign a 4-3 de and switch him to OlB. That way we can dedicate the first or second round pick to OLB to replace Mario instead of a WR. Wade drafted Reed last year, I think he can find another guy like him.

steelbtexan
03-04-2012, 12:07 PM
WR is the strength of this free agency class. I would much rather get a guy like Reggie Wayne for 3 years 18 mill rather than trying to sign a 4-3 de and switch him to OlB. That way we can dedicate the first or second round pick to OLB to replace Mario instead of a WR. Wade drafted Reed last year, I think he can find another guy like him.

^^^^
This

Plus letting MW walk gives the Texans the ability to sign all of their 2012/2013 FA's.

Unless MW is willing to sign a below market deal before March 13th. 10-12 mil plus a 20 mil signing bonus.

drs23
03-05-2012, 03:01 PM
I can't foresee a world where at least 2 or 3 teams WON'T throw stupid crazy cash at Mario and make it hard on him to choose to stay in Houston for less.

And I can't foresee a world where no team attempts to sign Foster to an offer sheet and thinks they can steal away a great RB for a first rounder and a lot of cap space they have this year.

Both of those, IMO, are very real possibilities. At that point, then umm...yeah, Texans better have some stuff figured out and ready to make their choice.

Just like they had to exit the Aso sweepstakes last year, and go grab a CB and a S instead...they might (key word is "might") have to make a choice here.

What team would NOT try to upset our apple cart? We wanted this level of fame and notoriety, we are getting it! Teams have painted bulls eyes on our chests. One is labeled Mario and the other is Foster.

The stakes are high. I feel confident that McNair is not a noob owner now. I feel certain that he and Rick got this. I really do.

EDIT: I also happen to think that it's possible that agents for both Mario AND Foster are not signing and maybe not even entertaining Texans offers yet...they're going to sit and wait and see what another team serves up on March 13. That franchise tag might get slapped on Foster March 12, folks. Then the Texans can have all of 2012 to work the long-term deal. Bet you donuts to dollars that Foster's agent is having him hold off on any Texans offer until offer sheets come in for their consideration! You have to have something to leverage against the Texans, but the Texans can tag slap Foster and avoid that mess. Yeah, I bet Foster gets tagged. I said it on March 2 at 1:07 p.m.

Can I have my :money: now? :D

Blake
03-05-2012, 03:32 PM
Avril would not sign a 5 year 40 million deal which is why he is going to get franchised by the Lions. And Anthony Spencer is so far away from Mario Williams in terms of athleticism and talent we'd be better off just drafting a guy and hoping he's good while he's cheap than overpaying a guy like that in FA. Why overpay any one of those guys over a player like MW?

Good call. Also Spencer getting franchised.

GP
03-05-2012, 05:45 PM
Can I have my :money: now? :D

Doh!

I would pay you now, but ummm...well, ya' know...I'm gonna' have to catch ya' later. Thanks for understanding! LOL.

rush2112mn
03-05-2012, 05:58 PM
Pat Kirwin does not have his numbers right.....the only ones who do and know what it is are the Texans front office......period. So any story coming out saying for example "How to resign Mario...." are not trueful and are fiction. They should be treated as such...because they dont have the numbers right.

leebigeztx
03-06-2012, 12:28 AM
So dale,how does that 5yr 40m for avril looking after the deal mathis just signed? In fact,how is that 8m signing bonus for barwin looking after that deal?

dalemurphy
03-06-2012, 05:36 AM
So dale,how does that 5yr 40m for avril looking after the deal mathis just signed? In fact,how is that 8m signing bonus for barwin looking after that deal?

You have totally missed the point regarding Barwin. The fact that Barwin has a year left on his relatively inconsequential contract means that the Texans could tear it up for a new one this year, giving him more money in 2012 in return for a smaller cap hit in 2013 and beyond. I said over and over that the numbers were simply hypothetical in order to illustrate that point.

Regarding Avril/Mathis: they are among a dozen guys that I'd be interested in as free agent replacements. I expect a number of the free agents to be very good financial value given the number of teams up against the cap and the unusually strong free agent market. Matt Roth, Jarrett Johnson are two guys I think might fit nicely for a relatively low price... but, we'll see.

Mr teX
03-06-2012, 05:54 AM
You have totally missed the point regarding Barwin. The fact that Barwin has a year left on his relatively inconsequential contract means that the Texans could tear it up for a new one this year, giving him more money in 2012 in return for a smaller cap hit in 2013 and beyond. I said over and over that the numbers were simply hypothetical in order to illustrate that point.

Regarding Avril/Mathis: they are among a dozen guys that I'd be interested in as free agent replacements. I expect a number of the free agents to be very good financial value given the number of teams up against the cap and the unusually strong free agent market. Matt Roth, Jarrett Johnson are two guys I think might fit nicely for a relatively low price... but, we'll see.

No incentive whatsoever for Jarrett Johnson to come here. He's already on a stout defense that has won for years. The only way we get him over here is if we overpay...in which case we don't even know if we're going to have the cap space after arian's deal...& then maybe Meyers & Brisiel's deal...& then a quality FA WR signing.

Matt Roth....uh who?

I keep hearing people throw around getting a "quality" this.... or a "quality" that with the money we supposed to be saving by letting MW walk. but i'm looking around at what's left after yesterday's franchise tag/contract signings...i'm not seeing a whole lot of that left in FA as all the quality guys at positions of need for us are getting locked up..or will be. & the ones that are left will have plenty of suitors with lots more money to dole out than us. So my question is where is this supposed quality coming from?

dalemurphy
03-06-2012, 06:08 AM
No incentive whatsoever for Jarrett Johnson to come here. He's already on a stout defense that has won for years. The only way we get him over here is if we overpay...in which case we don't even know if we're going to have the cap space after arian's deal...& then maybe Meyers & Brisiel's deal...& then a quality FA WR signing.

Matt Roth....uh who?

I keep hearing people throw around getting a "quality" this.... or a "quality" that with the money we supposed to be saving by letting MW walk. but i'm looking around at what's left after yesterday's franchise tag/contract signings...i'm not seeing a whole lot of that left in FA as all the quality guys at positions of need for us are getting locked up..or will be. & the ones that are left will have plenty of suitors with lots more money to dole out than us. So my question is where is this supposed quality coming from?

Other than last year, this is the deepest pool of quality free agents in many years. There are a few buyers. Beyond those, there's not much money out there for all the talent... just like last year.

How on earth do you know what motivates Jarret Johnson and whether he'd be interested in coming here? I have no idea, but I know it is a possibility.

Mr teX
03-06-2012, 06:37 AM
Other than last year, this is the deepest pool of quality free agents in many years. There are a few buyers. Beyond those, there's not much money out there for all the talent... just like last year.

How on earth do you know what motivates Jarret Johnson and whether he'd be interested in coming here? I have no idea, but I know it is a possibility.

Sure it's a possibility, but let me take a stab at it..

He's likely gonna want to start in which case that's doubtful if he comes here....or at least it should be.

he's likely gonna want to get paid...how much would you pay for a 30 something olb that's never had more than like 5 sacks in any season?

His former d-coordinator is now HC for the colts........& the Colts need a ton of help defensively...nothing like a vet that's familiar with the system already to teach the new guys........oh yeah, he'll probably get a chance to start over there as well.

Dude's not even that good...hardly quality imo.

mussop
04-20-2012, 01:02 AM
So leebigeztx, how does that Pat Kirwin article looking now? :kitten:


Sorry but some need to re read this thread.

leebigeztx
04-21-2012, 10:44 PM
So leebigeztx, how does that Pat Kirwin article looking now? :kitten:


Sorry but some need to re read this thread.

Not really. No one on this earth would have thought buffalo would give mario a 25m injury exception. Who does that and who in their right mind would turn that down. It was always known that if he got out the door, it was over. 40m wouldve have been acceptable, but when buffalo offered what they did, the texans didn't have a chance. Sometimes that happens and the texans cap was in worse shape than what was initially known. I never thought briesel would be back and meyers was 50-50. The flat cap for the next couple of years is going to restrict alot of deals going forwar.

dalemurphy
04-22-2012, 05:44 PM
Not really. No one on this earth would have thought buffalo would give mario a 25m injury exception. Who does that and who in their right mind would turn that down. It was always known that if he got out the door, it was over. 40m wouldve have been acceptable, but when buffalo offered what they did, the texans didn't have a chance. Sometimes that happens and the texans cap was in worse shape than what was initially known. I never thought briesel would be back and meyers was 50-50. The flat cap for the next couple of years is going to restrict alot of deals going forwar.

I did.

It's the nature of free agency. Those "A" list names will always be overbid for in free agency. There are too many bad organizations and organizations with priorities other than winning: selling tickets, getting the fan base excited, etc... Once he hit free agency, it became a foregone conclusion that his market value would far exceed his worth to a successful football team focused on winning. That is why I made the point that the Texans indicated their true feelings about him when they did not work out his contract after the 2010 season. Once that didn't happen and he was destined for free agency, he was gone.

Texan_Bill
04-22-2012, 07:05 PM
No offense to Buffalo, but they were stupid, very, very stoopid for spending that much money on Williams... They did it to prove to their fan base that they are somehow still relevant... A bold gamble, but a stupid gamble based on what he will bring them...

*Notice, I called him "Williams" and not Mario*

bckey
04-22-2012, 09:19 PM
I did.

You are saying you knew a team would give Mario a huge injury exception like 25 million? I think we all knew he would get a huge contract but I never thought it would include a 25 million dollar injury exception.

dalemurphy
04-22-2012, 09:29 PM
You are saying you knew a team would give Mario a huge injury exception like 25 million? I think we all knew he would get a huge contract but I never thought it would include a 25 million dollar injury exception.

I believed he would get a huge chunk of guaranteed money on the front end- in some form. I thought the number would be much too large for a wise team to bid against.