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beerlover
02-26-2012, 06:01 PM
Usually Alan Burge has this covered but a new name emerged during the combine that is worthy of mention as Texans address a #2 WR. If Kendall Wright is off the board by Texans selection #26 I might suggest Hill as a draft riser @ WR position who has both size 6-4 215, speed 4.36 body control & soft hands.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/09000d5d827392f9/article/speedy-hill-perfects-quickness-with-precombine-prep-work?module=HP11_cp

He also specializes in a whole different category, blocking, that we all know Texans covet. Hill was mostly asked to block in Georgia Tech's triple-option offense. As a blocker, Hill is outstanding, consistently locating, controlling, moving, and pancaking smaller DBs, and more than holding his own against LBs. Hill, despite high hips, bends his knees, uses good technique, and has good range and power blocking.

Seems like clean, well spoken individual who easily buys into team concept. He would bring not only speed on the outside he would lift the roof on coverage's & open up routes for Andre, other receivers/TE's. 29.3 yards per catch average. Those yards per catch are no joke either, I looked up his numbers, as a freshmen 22.83, sophomore 19.4.

Bottom Line: Big play specialist, every down WR because of blocking skill set, in other words might just be perfect compliment to Andre Johnson.

:wesmantexanfan:

Texn4life
02-26-2012, 06:12 PM
Usually Alan Burge has this covered but a new name emerged during the combine that is worthy of mention as Texans address a #2 WR. If Kendall Wright is off the board by Texans selection #26 I might suggest Hill as a draft riser @ WR position who has both size 6-4 215, speed 4.36 body control & soft hands.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/09000d5d827392f9/article/speedy-hill-perfects-quickness-with-precombine-prep-work?module=HP11_cp

He also specializes in a whole different category, blocking, that we all know Texans covet. Hill was mostly asked to block in Georgia Tech's triple-option offense. As a blocker, Hill is outstanding, consistently locating, controlling, moving, and pancaking smaller DBs, and more than holding his own against LBs. Hill, despite high hips, bends his knees, uses good technique, and has good range and power blocking.

Seems like clean, well spoken individual who easily buys into team concept. He would bring not only speed on the outside he would lift the roof on coverage's & open up routes for Andre, other receivers/TE's. 29.3 yards per catch average. Those yards per catch are no joke either, I looked up his numbers, as a freshmen 22.83, sophomore 19.4.

Bottom Line: Big play specialist, every down WR because of blocking skill set, in other words might just be perfect compliment to Andre Johnson.

:wesmantexanfan:

Because of the system he would be a project. In this type of situation it's valuable to keep a guy like Walter around if you draft Hill. It's going to be an adjustment going to a pro style offense where he's exposed to running a complete route tree. His big play potential is too big to ignore. He's one of those guys where you'll probably see just about every team at his pro day where they can focus solely on his route running. It would have been even more awesome to see him in the Senior Bowl running these routes instead of against air, but I'm with you that the guy is worth a look.

Dutchrudder
02-26-2012, 06:12 PM
I saw his combine performance and He looks legit. He may vault Randle and Jeffery to become the 4th best WR prospect.

beerlover
02-26-2012, 06:47 PM
The NFL draft process is fluid, always keep options open. There are so many dynamics in play, in Stephen Hills case it may be just system he played in? While he may not have developed the route tree you'd like the fact that he learned how to block is exceptionally under-rated skill set, not tested @ the combine. He is fluid, assimilated drills quickly & showcased soft hands, plucking ball away from body suggesting a true sleeper pick @ a position Texans need help in.

mussop
02-26-2012, 07:16 PM
The NFL draft process is fluid, always keep options open. There are so many dynamics in play, in Stephen Hills case it may be just system he played in? While he may not have developed the route tree you'd like the fact that he learned how to block is exceptionally under-rated skill set, not tested @ the combine. He is fluid, assimilated drills quickly & showcased soft hands, plucking ball away from body suggesting a true sleeper pick @ a position Texans need help in.



from the combine web site.

WEAKNESSES Hill's value is based purely off his ability as a deep threat. He has average quickness and moves off the line of scrimmage to avoid a jam. He ran a very basic route tree at Georgia Tech that didn't allow him to showcase many skills. Outside of catching jump balls, he struggles to read coverages and understand how to find holes in a zone. Hill looks uncomfortable with the ball in his hands and resembles a lengthy track star on the field instead of a football player. He dropped as many big balls as he made big plays; his YPC stat defines him perfectly as a player who is capable of making flash plays but isn't reliable.


The forty time is impressive but the body of work in college is not. There is major risk in taking this type player. has alot of the same qualities that JJ had coming out. Is a high risk, high reward type that would not touch until the 3rd round.

beerlover
02-26-2012, 07:38 PM
from the combine web site.

WEAKNESSES Hill's value is based purely off his ability as a deep threat. He has average quickness and moves off the line of scrimmage to avoid a jam. He ran a very basic route tree at Georgia Tech that didn't allow him to showcase many skills. Outside of catching jump balls, he struggles to read coverages and understand how to find holes in a zone. Hill looks uncomfortable with the ball in his hands and resembles a lengthy track star on the field instead of a football player. He dropped as many big balls as he made big plays; his YPC stat defines him perfectly as a player who is capable of making flash plays but isn't reliable.


The forty time is impressive but the body of work in college is not. There is major risk in taking this type player. has alot of the same qualities that JJ had coming out. Is a high risk, high reward type that would not touch until the 3rd round.

I did not see any weakness in his performance, of course its just the combine, but he ran the drills fluidly without hesitation. You can't compare him to a slot receiver either, what I'm suggesting is the system ran @ GT dictated his role even though each year his numbers progressively improved. Remember he is only a Junior. He also followed in the footsteps of Demaryius Thomas who followed Calvin Johnson. Which tells me recruiting wise they do a pretty good job developing bigger, faster WR's with good hands.

mussop
02-26-2012, 08:04 PM
I did not see any weakness in his performance, of course its just the combine, but he ran the drills fluidly without hesitation. You can't compare him to a slot receiver either, what I'm suggesting is the system ran @ GT dictated his role even though each year his numbers progressively improved. Remember he is only a Junior. He also followed in the footsteps of Demaryius Thomas who followed Calvin Johnson. Which tells me recruiting wise they do a pretty good job developing bigger, faster WR's with good hands.

I watched him more than once and I'm telling you that he is capable of making spectacular plays at times. The problem is he drops more passes than he makes big plays. He disappears for long stretches and sometimes entire games. He has serious potential. that is why I compare him to Jacoby.

thunderkyss
02-26-2012, 08:16 PM
Usually Alan Burge has this covered but a new name emerged during the combine that is worthy of mention as Texans address a #2 WR.

I took notice when I saw that 4.3 forty. I wanted to see him in the catching drills, but missed them.

Is he plucking the ball with his hands? Routes look ok? How about catching, turning, & exploding?

SAMURAITEXAN
02-26-2012, 08:22 PM
So I guess, WR prospects situation may go down like the following.

Blackmon Top 5
Floyd Top 20
Randle, Hill, Streeter Late 1st to eary 2nd?
Quick, Toon, McNutt 2nd to 3rd

Jeffery and Fuller didn't run so don't know where they fit.

Devon Wylie for our kick/punt return specialist?

NastyNate
02-26-2012, 08:25 PM
Usually Alan Burge has this covered but a new name emerged during the combine that is worthy of mention as Texans address a #2 WR. If Kendall Wright is off the board by Texans selection #26 I might suggest Hill as a draft riser @ WR position who has both size 6-4 215, speed 4.36 body control & soft hands.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/09000d5d827392f9/article/speedy-hill-perfects-quickness-with-precombine-prep-work?module=HP11_cp

He also specializes in a whole different category, blocking, that we all know Texans covet. Hill was mostly asked to block in Georgia Tech's triple-option offense. As a blocker, Hill is outstanding, consistently locating, controlling, moving, and pancaking smaller DBs, and more than holding his own against LBs. Hill, despite high hips, bends his knees, uses good technique, and has good range and power blocking.

Seems like clean, well spoken individual who easily buys into team concept. He would bring not only speed on the outside he would lift the roof on coverage's & open up routes for Andre, other receivers/TE's. 29.3 yards per catch average. Those yards per catch are no joke either, I looked up his numbers, as a freshmen 22.83, sophomore 19.4.

Bottom Line: Big play specialist, every down WR because of blocking skill set, in other words might just be perfect compliment to Andre Johnson.

:wesmantexanfan:

No no no no for the love of god NO! Please do not draft this kid. He is so inconsistent it kills. He's dropped more open passes than anyone I can recount. 49 career catches, probably 49 career drops. He's terrible.

Nate

thunderkyss
02-26-2012, 08:28 PM
from the combine web site.

WEAKNESSES Hill's value is based purely off his ability as a deep threat. He has average quickness and moves off the line of scrimmage to avoid a jam. He ran a very basic route tree at Georgia Tech that didn't allow him to showcase many skills. Outside of catching jump balls, he struggles to read coverages and understand how to find holes in a zone. Hill looks uncomfortable with the ball in his hands and resembles a lengthy track star on the field instead of a football player. He dropped as many big balls as he made big plays; his YPC stat defines him perfectly as a player who is capable of making flash plays but isn't reliable.


The forty time is impressive but the body of work in college is not. There is major risk in taking this type player. has alot of the same qualities that JJ had coming out. Is a high risk, high reward type that would not touch until the 3rd round.

I'm thinking the same thing.

But.. he's what, 6-4 & ran a 4.3...... that's insane. That's Randy Moss.

However, I don't know if we have the tools behind center to take advantage.

There aren't many highlights of him on YouTube, but what I saw, I didn't see anyone try to jam him on the line. The gave him space & he was still able to get to any spot on the field he wanted....

NastyNate
02-26-2012, 08:31 PM
I'm thinking the same thing.

But.. he's what, 6-4 & ran a 4.3...... that's insane. That's Randy Moss.

However, I don't know if we have the tools behind center to take advantage.

There aren't many highlights of him on YouTube, but what I saw, I didn't see anyone try to jam him on the line. The gave him space & he was still able to get to any spot on the field he wanted....

TK, he can't consistently make the catch. PASS! You're giving up Jacoby for a rookie Jacoby 2.0. Stop it already, he hasn't been on draft boards for a reason!

SAMURAITEXAN
02-26-2012, 08:35 PM
TK, he can't consistently make the catch. PASS! You're giving up Jacoby for a rookie Jacoby 2.0. Stop it already, he hasn't been on draft boards for a reason!

Sometime, even so call experts miss evaluate prospects. So, you never know Hill maybe a legit late 1st rd pick.

Go Texans!!!

Lucky
02-26-2012, 08:38 PM
No no no no for the love of god NO! Please do not draft this kid. He is so inconsistent it kills. He's dropped more open passes than anyone I can recount. 49 career catches, probably 49 career drops. He's terrible.

Nate
Nate, have you actually seen Hill play one game? Ever? How do you know how many passes he has or hasn't dropped?

Lucky
02-26-2012, 08:46 PM
Stephen Hill one handed catch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcs-iqymQrk)

Stephen Hill diving catch with CB hanging on (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfALNRblfXk&feature=related)

Stephen Hill takes a short pass 80 yards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yys0z8fQfc8&feature=related)

aussie_texan
02-26-2012, 09:08 PM
was watching the combine live and the 40 just blew me away straight away i was looking all over the net about this kid.

he does have jacoby written all over him, smaller school, high potential but big risk.

i wouldn't put a first round grade on him because of his route running but if his available in the 2nd i would be pretty happy if we got him.

beerlover
02-26-2012, 09:38 PM
Forget draft grade a minute and ask yourself who would have the biggest impact as a Texan amongst available WR's in this draft? Who would be the best complimentary fit across Andre Johnson.

Playoffs
02-26-2012, 10:05 PM
Forget draft grade a minute and ask yourself who would have the biggest impact as a Texan amongst available WR's in this draft? Who would be the best complimentary fit across Andre Johnson.Kendall Wright.

Lucky
02-26-2012, 10:18 PM
he does have jacoby written all over him, smaller school
Georgia Tech is a BCS school that has played in post season bowl games for the past 15 seasons.

76Texan
02-26-2012, 10:24 PM
I took notice when I saw that 4.3 forty. I wanted to see him in the catching drills, but missed them.

Is he plucking the ball with his hands? Routes look ok? How about catching, turning, & exploding?

He looks pretty good in one portion of the drills that I saw.
He was attacking the ball really well.
i've got a bunch of game tapes on him; I guess I'll start pulling them out.

NastyNate
02-26-2012, 10:25 PM
Sometime, even so call experts miss evaluate prospects. So, you never know Hill maybe a legit late 1st rd pick.

Go Texans!!!

I'm not a UT fan. I watch a lot of Big 12 and ACC games though, I've seen 4 Georgia Tech games this year. Yes, he's dropped almost 40% of what he's caught. And he drops them in wide open situations. He's a Jacoby Jones. He is. Don't believe me? Earmark this thread with a potential big bowl of crow. **** I'll eat 100 bowls of it if he makes it, but he's nothing and will turnout to be nothing other than a speedy dropster. He fears contact and can't make the marquee catches a WR should (gasp, who do we have that does that?).

Nate

NastyNate
02-26-2012, 10:27 PM
Nate, have you actually seen Hill play one game? Ever? How do you know how many passes he has or hasn't dropped?

Yes I've watched 4 games Hill has played. Don't want him, not even a hint of big time playmaking ability. Get outta my draft Hill. Drops everything in wide open coverage, minimal route skills, won't be ish in the NFL. Mark it zero dude, mark it zero.

aussie_texan
02-26-2012, 10:28 PM
by smaller i went not a major program. obviously its a bigger program then lane college

Playoffs
02-26-2012, 10:46 PM
He looks pretty good in one portion of the drills that I saw.
He was attacking the ball really well.
i've got a bunch of game tapes on him; I guess I'll start pulling them out.
Yes, please do.

Knock is he never ran/learned a route tree -- just streaks/slants. And he can't separate off the line, had some drops. How long will his learning curve be???

ArlingtonTexan
02-26-2012, 11:00 PM
by smaller i went not a major program. obviously its a bigger program then lane college

How major do you need? GT is an ACC school a conference we have done quite well drafting from.

SAMURAITEXAN
02-26-2012, 11:25 PM
I'm not a UT fan. I watch a lot of Big 12 and ACC games though, I've seen 4 Georgia Tech games this year. Yes, he's dropped almost 40% of what he's caught. And he drops them in wide open situations. He's a Jacoby Jones. He is. Don't believe me? Earmark this thread with a potential big bowl of crow. **** I'll eat 100 bowls of it if he makes it, but he's nothing and will turnout to be nothing other than a speedy dropster. He fears contact and can't make the marquee catches a WR should (gasp, who do we have that does that?).

Nate

When dealing with a player like Jacoby, we tend to focus more of hands issue than anything which is a natural reaction. I said many times before that I aint an expert and just fan of the Texans. From my eyes, guy that is 6'4" with 4.3 range speed is just insane. I am very intrigued by Hill and Streeter 6'5" with speed. They are both vertical and red zone threat to me.

Go Texans!!!

Playoffs
02-26-2012, 11:32 PM
...Streeter 6'5" with speed. They are both vertical and red zone threat to me.

Go Texans!!!Streeter looked awful to me -- wouldn't touch him.

SAMURAITEXAN
02-26-2012, 11:49 PM
Streeter looked awful to me -- wouldn't touch him.

On the contrary, I wouldn't mind us invest in him to develop as our future #1 or #2 WR and should help us some in red zone as a rook. But I do respect your guys comment since I believe your guys have better eyes for the talent. And, my eyes are too small to see a whole picture lol.

Go Texans!!!

mussop
02-27-2012, 12:06 AM
Stephen Hill one handed catch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcs-iqymQrk)

Stephen Hill diving catch with CB hanging on (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfALNRblfXk&feature=related)

Stephen Hill takes a short pass 80 yards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yys0z8fQfc8&feature=related)

Too bad they don't make youtube videos of drops or he would have his own library.

NastyNate
02-27-2012, 12:14 AM
Too bad they don't make youtube videos of drops or he would have his own library.

He'd probably have 48 videos. There are 100 Al Davis' in this thread right meow.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2012, 02:04 AM
Nate, have you actually seen Hill play one game? Ever? How do you know how many passes he has or hasn't dropped?

I can't speak for Nate, but being an ACC guy I have seen Hill play many times.

His strength is his blocking and explosiveness. He does have a knack for dropping balls and/or not in sync with his quarterback. He is extremely limited in his knowledge of routes and his ability to read the holes in zones. I'm not saying he can't do those things, only that he has limited experience in doing so. We are talking about what 48 or 49 career catches at GTech.

A guy like Stephen Hill is a project on the Texans, and I wouldn't take him with our first round selection. I am hoping the Texans can get an outside or slot receiver in this draft that can contribute in the 2012 season.

leebigeztx
02-27-2012, 02:19 AM
A buddy of mine who does a great job with the draft has been talking this guy up for a month. He's very similar to thomas. Thing is, who can get the ball to him?

beerlover
02-27-2012, 09:23 AM
A buddy of mine who does a great job with the draft has been talking this guy up for a month. He's very similar to thomas. Thing is, who can get the ball to him?

Good point, but a good problem to have.

Playoffs
02-27-2012, 09:51 AM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Watched 2 Stephen Hill games last night (UNC, CLEM). Baller. Stands out as best player on field when involved. Way better RAC than expected.
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Hill catches everything w/ his hands. Growing up to do but freak length, catch radius, speed, high effort. Plays fast. 1st rd within reach.

beerlover
02-27-2012, 09:58 AM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Watched 2 Stephen Hill games last night (UNC, CLEM). Baller. Stands out as best player on field when involved. Way better RAC than expected.
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Hill catches everything w/ his hands. Growing up to do but freak length, catch radius, speed, high effort. Plays fast. 1st rd within reach.

I guess nastynate missed a couple games? All I know is what I watched. Everything as stated by Silva look true to me. Add clean bill of health, no off field issues, high character kid, not a diva type willing to block & work within team concept, #26 isn't out of the question.

WolverineFan
02-27-2012, 10:20 AM
Ironic that most of the guys here have been bashing Jacoby Jones for years and they want to take a similar project with our 1st round pick. Hill was a mid round prospect before the combine (and that's taking potential into account beforehand). Anyone who was familiar with him before this weekend knew he was going to run fast.

We don't need another project WR right now. Grab a solid guy in the 1st or 2nd because that's what we need. We don't need 2 Jacoby Jones' running around out there.

If WR is as big a need as many on this board say it is, then why would you waste your top pick on a project player who will not contribute early in his career.

beerlover
02-27-2012, 10:28 AM
It's just plain silliness to compare Hill with Jones.

nero THE zero
02-27-2012, 10:52 AM
from the combine web site.

WEAKNESSES Hill's value is based purely off his ability as a deep threat. He has average quickness and moves off the line of scrimmage to avoid a jam. He ran a very basic route tree at Georgia Tech that didn't allow him to showcase many skills. Outside of catching jump balls, he struggles to read coverages and understand how to find holes in a zone. Hill looks uncomfortable with the ball in his hands and resembles a lengthy track star on the field instead of a football player. He dropped as many big balls as he made big plays; his YPC stat defines him perfectly as a player who is capable of making flash plays but isn't reliable.


The forty time is impressive but the body of work in college is not. There is major risk in taking this type player. has alot of the same qualities that JJ had coming out. Is a high risk, high reward type that would not touch until the 3rd round.
This, this, this.

As a Georgia Tech fan I have seen a bunch of Hill. He has no problem getting downfield and has the size you'd love. But, he simply cannot catch the ball.

He's the quintessential workout warrior who will be overdrafted because of his combine numbers and will bust in the NFL.

I would not touch him with a 10-foot pole.

WolverineFan
02-27-2012, 10:54 AM
It's just plain silliness to compare Hill with Jones.

Why is that? They are/were both projects. That was the comparison.

We don't need to waste another 1st round pick on a project player at a position of need (Okoye). If WR is truly a need then pass on the 'sexier' prospect and take the solid guy who can contribute to the team. Guys like Floyd, Sanu, McNutt, etc. can contribute now.

nero THE zero
02-27-2012, 11:01 AM
Nate, have you actually seen Hill play one game? Ever? How do you know how many passes he has or hasn't dropped?

I've seen more of him than anyone here, and way more than the 4 Evan Silva watched. Granted, I don't get paid to evaluate NFL talent, but I can tell you as a fan of the team that Hill has played on, he has broken my heart with blatant drops in the wide open field more times than I can count.

mussop
02-27-2012, 04:32 PM
It's just plain silliness to compare Hill with Jones.

Apparently you're the only one having a problem seeing the similarities. You need to look past the combine numbers. Game tape should be 98% of the evaluation. You move a guy up to far because of measurables you are asking for failure. That is the kind of approach A Davis used to take to the draft and people laughed at him. Another example, mike mamula, remember him.

Now is not the time to take these kind of risk.

beerlover
02-27-2012, 04:41 PM
Apparently you're the only one having a problem seeing the similarities. You need to look past the combine numbers. Game tape should be 98% of the evaluation. You move a guy up to far because of measurables you are asking for failure. That is the kind of approach A Davis used to take to the draft and people laughed at him. Another example, mike mamula, remember him.

Now is not the time to take these kind of risk.

seriously, if there was any similarity do you think I would compare the two or be the least bit intrigued?

Jacoby ran a 4.5 in his forty, has super small hands, is shorter, less 5 inches in his vertical jump & played for a small school against lesser competition. There is your comparison.

The1ApplePie
02-27-2012, 05:13 PM
Apparently you're the only one having a problem seeing the similarities. You need to look past the combine numbers. Game tape should be 98% of the evaluation. You move a guy up to far because of measurables you are asking for failure. That is the kind of approach A Davis used to take to the draft and people laughed at him. Another example, mike mamula, remember him.

Now is not the time to take these kind of risk.

Mario Williams and JPP have both been workout warriors that panned out great in recent drafts. Antonio Cromartie has done well too.

Didn't Michael Crabtree and Aaron Curry look amazing on tape?

thunderkyss
02-27-2012, 05:35 PM
TK, he can't consistently make the catch. PASS! You're giving up Jacoby for a rookie Jacoby 2.0. Stop it already, he hasn't been on draft boards for a reason!

Stop what? I didn't say we should draft him. I'm saying I haven't seen enough to even think anyone should take him in the first round.

I saw him at the combine, his size (height & weight) & speed made me want to know more.

beerlover
02-27-2012, 05:41 PM
The only thing I can think of which could cause Stephen Hill to drop so many passes (trust fellow posters on this) he could be afraid of contact? This is obviously not tested @ the combine. If he is afraid of contact that's a whole other thing. When isolated on the ball he shows excellent concentration, focus & ability to use his hands away from his body. I'm hoping he could get stronger in mini-fall camps with proper diet & nutrition along with workout regiment. Similar body build, speed comparable to Randy Moss.

thunderkyss
02-27-2012, 05:43 PM
I've seen more of him than anyone here, and way more than the 4 Evan Silva watched. Granted, I don't get paid to evaluate NFL talent, but I can tell you as a fan of the team that Hill has played on, he has broken my heart with blatant drops in the wide open field more times than I can count.

Is it a technique issue? Concentration? Is it something a coach can help him with?

Does anyone know what his vertical & broad jump were?

TimeKiller
02-27-2012, 05:53 PM
Is it a technique issue? Concentration? Is it something a coach can help him with?

Does anyone know what his vertical & broad jump were?

Vert 39.5"
Broad 11'1''

Anyone think maybe playing for a triple option team stunted his development?

I wouldn't be mad.

WolverineFan
02-27-2012, 05:54 PM
Mario Williams and JPP have both been workout warriors that panned out great in recent drafts. Antonio Cromartie has done well too.

Didn't Michael Crabtree and Aaron Curry look amazing on tape?

Mario and JPP both were pretty good in college though. You see guys with great film bust out all the time. I've never seen a guy with bad film become a star.

This is what I hate about the combine. Guys like Heyward-Bey, Hill, etc., etc. all get overrated because of their measureables. Being a good athlete doesn't make you a good football player.

NastyNate
02-27-2012, 06:38 PM
Ironic that most of the guys here have been bashing Jacoby Jones for years and they want to take a similar project with our 1st round pick. Hill was a mid round prospect before the combine (and that's taking potential into account beforehand). Anyone who was familiar with him before this weekend knew he was going to run fast.

We don't need another project WR right now. Grab a solid guy in the 1st or 2nd because that's what we need. We don't need 2 Jacoby Jones' running around out there.

If WR is as big a need as many on this board say it is, then why would you waste your top pick on a project player who will not contribute early in his career.

This, this, this.

As a Georgia Tech fan I have seen a bunch of Hill. He has no problem getting downfield and has the size you'd love. But, he simply cannot catch the ball.

He's the quintessential workout warrior who will be overdrafted because of his combine numbers and will bust in the NFL.

I would not touch him with a 10-foot pole.

Why is that? They are/were both projects. That was the comparison.

We don't need to waste another 1st round pick on a project player at a position of need (Okoye). If WR is truly a need then pass on the 'sexier' prospect and take the solid guy who can contribute to the team. Guys like Floyd, Sanu, McNutt, etc. can contribute now.

I've seen more of him than anyone here, and way more than the 4 Evan Silva watched. Granted, I don't get paid to evaluate NFL talent, but I can tell you as a fan of the team that Hill has played on, he has broken my heart with blatant drops in the wide open field more times than I can count.

Thank you x 10! People get so caught up with combine numbers and don't look at the body of work a receiver puts together. BeerLover, we share the same love (of beer obviously) but not for Stephen Hill. I'd probably cry into my beer if we drafted him. If we got him in the 7th I'd still be sad.

thunderkyss
02-27-2012, 07:18 PM
Mario and JPP both were pretty good in college though. You see guys with great film bust out all the time. I've never seen a guy with bad film become a star.

This is what I hate about the combine. Guys like Heyward-Bey, Hill, etc., etc. all get overrated because of their measureables. Being a good athlete doesn't make you a good football player.

Heyward-Bey didn't get overrated..... he got Al Davis'd..... I think that's a different case all together.

steelbtexan
02-27-2012, 07:45 PM
I will go with NtZ here. The good thing is Hill will probably push Randle(my guy) or K.Wright down to the Texans.

As far as Hill goes I can see BL side of this. He's an amazing athlete. Who played on an option team and hasn't learned how to run the route tree. (Understandably) Also it's not like Hill was playing with Luck or Griffin as his QB.

If the Texans already had a competent WR corps then I would be all for taking Hill in the 1st. Since they dont give me a more pro ready guy like Randle in the 1st and a guy like Joe Adams/Danny Coale in the 4th.

The1ApplePie
02-27-2012, 09:23 PM
Mario and JPP both were pretty good in college though. You see guys with great film bust out all the time. I've never seen a guy with bad film become a star.

This is what I hate about the combine. Guys like Heyward-Bey, Hill, etc., etc. all get overrated because of their measureables. Being a good athlete doesn't make you a good football player.

Both were seen in the college game as inferior to their linemates (Lawson and Selvie respectively). They got by on physical gifts rather than technique. Both became beasts with proper coaching though.

bah007
02-28-2012, 02:34 AM
The best thing about Hill is that someone will roll the dice and grab him before our pick, thus pushing a better player down to us.

The guy is an elite athlete who will get nasty in the running game. I love that about him.

But let's tap the brakes here a bit. The guy has tons of negatives:

-He ran about three different routes in his entire college career. The learning curve is going to be tremendous for him.

-From what I've seen, he has the ability to make the great catch but he is not a natural catcher. Too many wide open drops. I wouldn't say he fights the ball but he prefers to use his body instead of his hands.

-The reason his yards per catch is so high is because defenders are getting sucked up by the option game and he just uses his long speed to run past them. He is wide open because of the scheme, not because of his ability as a receiver.

There are reasons to be excited about him as a prospect. But he is a big time project. I don't 100% agree with the Jacoby Jones comparisons but he is way way closer to that than he is to the Calvin Johnsons of the league. I can easily think of about ten guys I would rather have, and most of them could be had later in the draft.

SF49erFaithful
02-28-2012, 04:14 AM
Also consider he had the worst QB in the ACC throwing to him.

I doubt he makes it to 30, but I hope the Niners pick him up. Great athlete, enormous potential. It worked out for us when we drafted Vernon Davis, the ultimate work-out warrior. :doot:

Doubt he makes it to 30 though, especially with the emergence of former teammate D. Thomas.

nero THE zero
02-28-2012, 09:58 AM
Is it a technique issue? Concentration? Is it something a coach can help him with?
That's not something I will pretend to be qualified to speculate on.

I will say that from my impression, not that I have gone back and rewatched games or anything, that most of his drops came in the open field. The nature of Tech's offense will produce play action passes in which the WR will be wide open, uncovered more often than not. One might speculate too wide open (though they were the same passes Thomas was catching).

This is just my recollection, so it could be biased, skewed, or downright wrong. But, that's what I've taken away from Hill's career at Tech.

BigBull17
02-28-2012, 12:18 PM
TK, he can't consistently make the catch. PASS! You're giving up Jacoby for a rookie Jacoby 2.0. Stop it already, he hasn't been on draft boards for a reason!

Dear God no! Outside of Blackmon and Flloyd I would either address another position or trade down.

76Texan
02-28-2012, 01:22 PM
The best thing about Hill is that someone will roll the dice and grab him before our pick, thus pushing a better player down to us.

The guy is an elite athlete who will get nasty in the running game. I love that about him.

But let's tap the brakes here a bit. The guy has tons of negatives:

-He ran about three different routes in his entire college career. The learning curve is going to be tremendous for him.

-From what I've seen, he has the ability to make the great catch but he is not a natural catcher. Too many wide open drops. I wouldn't say he fights the ball but he prefers to use his body instead of his hands.

-The reason his yards per catch is so high is because defenders are getting sucked up by the option game and he just uses his long speed to run past them. He is wide open because of the scheme, not because of his ability as a receiver.

There are reasons to be excited about him as a prospect. But he is a big time project. I don't 100% agree with the Jacoby Jones comparisons but he is way way closer to that than he is to the Calvin Johnsons of the league. I can easily think of about ten guys I would rather have, and most of them could be had later in the draft.

There are a lot of truth to this assesments (as well as from a couple others).

However, I see a lot of potential and good things in Hill.

I was able to watch 2 of his games (for now) and highlights from 3 other games (with some studying of the game books).

There are a lot to like about this kid.
There was one dropped ball in those 5 games.
I hope to have a report of some sort on Hill tomorrow night.

The Cush
02-28-2012, 02:29 PM
Not knowing anything about this guy and after reading this thread I saw a guy over at BRB putting a scouting report on him. They evaluated him for his game against UNC and had this to say..

Hill has great measurables. Tall, Lanky, Fast. However he lacks some fundamental skills as a receiver. Football players aren't just athletes, they require skills and techniques that allow them to play the game of football as a receiver. In this game tape, I just don't see it. Poor route running, poor catching technique. I see athlete, fast and catches long balls but I don't see receiver on plays like example one and four. I see dropped balls and to be honest, flag football routes. As a consolation though, Hill is a pretty good blocker, the system and his size has allowed him to become an adequate blocker, something valued by our system. I would like to break down more film on Hill but from what I see, Hill's bad habit (body catches) actually came to get him at the end and as a player he really needs to work on that. Hill can still show his progress at his pro day. I want to see him gain at least 5 lbs of muscle but still maintain his elite speed. That will show me that he is dedicated to improving his size but remains in shape. Also I want to see him look more like a receiver. I want him to catch with his hands and run routes in 90 and 45 degree angles. Stephen Hill has a lot more to prove before he is worth the 26th overall pick in my opinion.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/27/2827529/stephen-hill

It was just one game, but they came away with the same negative impressions many people on here are saying.

thunderkyss
02-28-2012, 10:11 PM
I want to see him gain at least 5 lbs of muscle but still maintain his elite speed. That will show me that he is dedicated to improving his size but remains in shape.
http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/27/2827529/stephen-hill


Why would anyone want Hill to gain weight? His size is perfect for a receiver. At least he has nothing to gain by picking up weight.... He's a receiver, not a RB or a LB.

beerlover
02-29-2012, 08:31 AM
I could have heard wrong but thought McClain stated on 610 that Texans like Hill both his size, speed & coach-ability but after combine won't be there in 2nd & could be targeted in first :specnatz:

LonerATO
02-29-2012, 08:33 AM
I could have heard wrong but thought McClain stated on 610 that Texans like Hill both his size, speed & coach-ability but after combine won't be there in 2nd & could be targeted in first :specnatz:

I see Hill as more of a 2nd to 3rd guy, he is still a project for many teams, and using such a high pick could really hurt.

Playoffs
02-29-2012, 08:48 AM
WalterFootball has Texans taking Hill in their latest mock:

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012_1.php

badboy
02-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Of all the spots we have a need, LG, WR2, center, CB2, NT and maybe OLB all but WR offer a starter ahead of draft pick that allows a #1 pick to not have pressure to start. Some could argue that Walter could be #2 WR and allow Hill (if selected) to train behind him. I just do not see that. A WR selection in first or second should compete for starter minutes, imo. The talk and goal has been to draft someone to play opposite AJ.

A high potential non starter WR should be taken later such as Jordan White or Broyles; not #26.

76Texan
02-29-2012, 09:52 AM
Not knowing anything about this guy and after reading this thread I saw a guy over at BRB putting a scouting report on him. They evaluated him for his game against UNC and had this to say..


http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/27/2827529/stephen-hill

It was just one game, but they came away with the same negative impressions many people on here are saying.

I disagree with most of their takes.
Except for the drop, there were a lot to like about his game.
One needs to pay more attention to the details when scouting a player, IMHO.
I watched another game last night.
Hopefully, I can come up with a report tonight.
He has pretty good route running ability already, there I said it.

First impressions (after watching 3 games and highlights of 4 other games): I can see him going late in the first or somewhere in the second round.

badboy
02-29-2012, 10:20 AM
I disagree with most of their takes.
Except for the drop, there were a lot to like about his game.
One needs to pay more attention to the details when scouting a player, IMHO.
I watched another game last night.
Hopefully, I can come up with a report tonight.
He has pretty good route running ability already, there I said it.

First impressions (after watching 3 games and highlights of 4 other games): I can see him going late in the first or somewhere in the second round.76 aren't most if not all his routes straight and deep? Usually left uncovered which adds to his avg. Reminds me some of an early career Bob Hayes Dallas in that respect.

redwhiteblue
02-29-2012, 10:29 AM
http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/29/wrs-stephen-hill-and-marvin-jones-going-deep/

bah007
02-29-2012, 11:09 AM
I see Hill as more of a 2nd to 3rd guy, he is still a project for many teams, and using such a high pick could really hurt.

He probably should be a 2nd or 3rd round guy. But somebody will fall in love with his athleticism and take him in the 1st. It happens every year.

I think the guy is a tremendous athlete. But he is a project. I don't like him for the Texans unless we are taking two WRs in this draft.

beerlover
02-29-2012, 11:26 AM
Everybody has their own opinion. Which makes this forum go around & around. To me there is too much focus on the first pick, always! I'm already tired of the debate & would just accept Stephen Hill now & be done with it so could focus on other players/positions. As is custom around here a lot of people are going to be upset with whoever Texans select anyway. For those negative on Hill have your crying towels ready come April 26th around 10:30 pm. :cry2:

thunderkyss
02-29-2012, 11:39 AM
Everybody has their own opinion. Which makes this forum go around & around. To me there is too much focus on the first pick, always! I'm already tired of the debate & would just accept Stephen Hill now & be done with it so could focus on other players/positions. As is custom around here a lot of people are going to be upset with whoever Texans select anyway. For those negative on Hill have your crying towels ready come April 26th around 10:30 pm. :cry2:

Scout has Hill rated as the 7th best WR (http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2012&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=16) behind both Sanu & Randle. How would you feel if the Texans selected Hill before both?

Scout.com doesn't list Hill in the top 50 players (http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2012&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4). Wouldn't you be upset if the Texans picked someone not in the top 50 at 26?

Playoffs
02-29-2012, 12:09 PM
I don't dislike Hill, but rather see him in a pack of WRs with 2nd round grades.

I'd prefer to nab a DT as there will be very good relative talent available at 26 this year.

But I can't decide until knowing if we keep Myers (I'd go OL, then) and if we keep Mario (opens option for LBs who I haven't focused on.) IMO, losing Myers kills us -- and Green Bay has to be darned tempting.

thunderkyss
02-29-2012, 12:39 PM
I don't dislike Hill, but rather see him in a pack of WRs with 2nd round grades.

I'd prefer to nab a DT as there will be very good relative talent available at 26 this year.

But I can't decide until knowing if we keep Myers (I'd go OL, then) and if we keep Mario (opens option for LBs who I haven't focused on.) IMO, losing Myers kills us -- and Green Bay has to be darned tempting.

I'd be thrilled if we drop out of the first all together, resulting in 3 second round picks..... using two of them on WR

axisv
02-29-2012, 01:19 PM
If this guy is available when we pick in the first should be take him? His measurables are amazing but he seems to be unpolished as a receiver/route runner. Personally, I hope Dontari Poe is still available but I doubt it.

Playoffs
02-29-2012, 01:23 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90033 ;)

bah007
02-29-2012, 01:29 PM
If this guy is available when we pick in the first should be take him? His measurables are amazing but he seems to be unpolished as a receiver/route runner. Personally, I hope Dontari Poe is still available but I doubt it.

If our only options are Hill and Poe then I hope like hell that we trade back.

axisv
02-29-2012, 02:03 PM
Did not see the previous thread. Thanks for the link.

BigBull17
02-29-2012, 02:40 PM
He'd probably have 48 videos. There are 100 Al Davis' in this thread right meow.

This. Speed is less important that the ability to get seperation and sure hands. I hate the 40. The only people it is actually relevant for are returners. They are the only ones who truly get a head start. Burst, change of direction, use of body to shield defenders, catching away from your body with soft hands, change of direction. All more important.

TdotTexas2Step
02-29-2012, 02:50 PM
I'm not buying it. No matter what the sport, players who come out of nowhere like this due to combine results typically never work out like teams want to.

Texans don't need a project right now, and Hill would definitely be a project. They need someone who can contribute now should the injury bug settle in with Andre again. Even with Walter and possibly Jones on the team, this rookie (if we take a WR early) will be expected to pick things up quick, because we've got playoffs on the mind, and we don't have time we used to in the past to wait on players.

It might even be a smokescreen by the Texans, trying to hype Hill so another WR they want drops to them.

Mr teX
02-29-2012, 02:59 PM
This. Speed is less important that the ability to get seperation and sure hands. I hate the 40. The only people it is actually relevant for are returners. They are the only ones who truly get a head start. Burst, change of direction, use of body to shield defenders, catching away from your body with soft hands, change of direction. All more important.

catching away from your body & body control you say?

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/400/464/107842886_crop_650x440.jpg?1318696571

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1005/ncf_g_ntoon_sy_300.jpg

Lol, i know you guys are tired of me talking about this kid, but i think he's going to be a steal for whomever picks him up.

El Tejano
02-29-2012, 04:03 PM
catching away from your body & body control you say?

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/400/464/107842886_crop_650x440.jpg?1318696571

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1005/ncf_g_ntoon_sy_300.jpg

Lol, i know you guys are tired of me talking about this kid, but i think he's going to be a steal for whomever picks him up.

I will not be tired of you talking about him. What I also like about him is that he is the son of former Jets WR Al Toon, a very good WR in his day. Not that I think blood lines will equal to a great WR but typically the kids whose father played pro ball before tend to know how to be a professional and you don't have to worry about behavior issues.

Secondly, we have yet to be disappointed from any of our draft picks from Wisconsin. Even Garrett Graham, in his limited duty has shown flashes and I think will be a contributor this year. When Watt was drafted there was an interview with the head coach and he was asked why has Wisconsin put out some good pros. His response was "because we play football over here. We play it the wya it is supposed to be played. Not with all these zone read offenses and flashy defenses."

I think Toon is going to give you a very solid, productive receiver. Is he able to take teams off AJ, I don't know. Is he a first rounder, I don't know. But he hasn't shown anything to make you say no either.

Mr teX
02-29-2012, 04:20 PM
I will not be tired of you talking about him. What I also like about him is that he is the son of former Jets WR Al Toon, a very good WR in his day. Not that I think blood lines will equal to a great WR but typically the kids whose father played pro ball before tend to know how to be a professional and you don't have to worry about behavior issues.

Secondly, we have yet to be disappointed from any of our draft picks from Wisconsin. Even Garrett Graham, in his limited duty has shown flashes and I think will be a contributor this year. When Watt was drafted there was an interview with the head coach and he was asked why has Wisconsin put out some good pros. His response was "because we play football over here. We play it the wya it is supposed to be played. Not with all these zone read offenses and flashy defenses."

I think Toon is going to give you a very solid, productive receiver. Is he able to take teams off AJ, I don't know. Is he a first rounder, I don't know. But he hasn't shown anything to make you say no either.

yeah, i just don't understand how teams continue to let the 40 time ruin the whole draft scouting process. The league & its history are riddled with guys that don't have what you would call elite speed. but those same guys show a knack for being able to get open. Jerry Rice, Micheal Irvin, Rod Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, Wes Welker & the 2 guys i most associate this kid to..Anquan Boldin & Marques Colston.

I really hope we're seriously targeting this kid somewhere in the 1st or 2nd. My only fear is that SF, Tenn, Jax, TB or worse ......NE / NO snatch him up before us.

NastyNate
02-29-2012, 05:00 PM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/930/230/130772222_display_image.jpg?1329613530http://nflsfuture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/stephen-hill-300x259.jpg

steelbtexan
02-29-2012, 06:09 PM
yeah, i just don't understand how teams continue to let the 40 time ruin the whole draft scouting process. The league & its history are riddled with guys that don't have what you would call elite speed. but those same guys show a knack for being able to get open. Jerry Rice, Micheal Irvin, Rod Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, Wes Welker & the 2 guys i most associate this kid to..Anquan Boldin & Marques Colston.

I really hope we're seriously targeting this kid somewhere in the 1st or 2nd. My only fear is that SF, Tenn, Jax, TB or worse ......NE / NO snatch him up before us.

Agreed about the speed thing

Toon is a little too injury pron for my liking. He should be availabe and a bargain in the 3rd/4th rd.

Another guy that uyou're describing that I like alot is Danny Coale. My #1 guy for the Texans is Randle. He ran a 4.55 be is much faster than that in pads. In/Out of his breaks.

Lucky
02-29-2012, 06:11 PM
Scout.com doesn't list Hill in the top 50 players (http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2012&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4). Wouldn't you be upset if the Texans picked someone not in the top 50 at 26?
They're not real scouts. They're internet scouts. And, they're not the Texans scouts. So no, I wouldn't be upset if the Texans didn't draft off of an internet draft board.

Playoffs
02-29-2012, 07:07 PM
An assessment of some of Hill's work with film captures:

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/26/georgia-tech-wr-stephen-hill-speed-kills-now-learn-how-to-aim/

thunderkyss
02-29-2012, 09:08 PM
They're not real scouts. They're internet scouts. And, they're not the Texans scouts. So no, I wouldn't be upset if the Texans didn't draft off of an internet draft board.

Does anyone have him ranked in the top 32? Anyone have him rated higher than Floyd? or Sanu?

I like that he is athletic.. & his combine numbers show he's explosive. If our coaches believe they can "correct" his catching mechanics, I have no problem drafting this guy, even with our first. Especially if his run blocking (from the receiver position) is as polished as has been mentioned here.

You can teach a person how to catch, how to run routes. You can't teach 4.3 speed, or 6'4", or 215lbs. This is freak territory.... elite athlete. The coaches have to do their job to make him an elite football player.

Lucky
02-29-2012, 09:12 PM
Does anyone have him ranked in the top 32?
Define "anyone"? Anyone with a web site? Or anyone who is making decisions for a NFL franchise? Don't care about the former, and we'll find out about the latter.

Playoffs
02-29-2012, 09:36 PM
Does anyone have him ranked in the top 32? Anyone have him rated higher than Floyd? or Sanu?http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/mock-drafts/chad-reuter/90101

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012_1.php

Peter King: (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/02/27/combine/index.html) The receiver order: Looks like Justin Blackmon and Michael Floyd of Notre Dame will be the only wideouts in round one, unless Hill sneaks in there. Reuben Randle of LSU and Rutgers' Mohamed Sanu (the Bucs and new coach Greg Schiano want him) could go 4-5 unless Baylor's Kendall Wright overcomes a lousy combine.

Lucky
02-29-2012, 10:07 PM
Heyward-Bey didn't get overrated..... he got Al Davis'd..... I think that's a different case all together.
The top 2 WRs from the '09 draft have been Hakeem Nicks and Mike Wallace. Wallace ran a 4.33 forty at the combine, .03 seconds slower than Heyward-Bey. Wallace's stats in college were similar to Heyward-Bey. His speed was similar to Heyward-Bey. Yet, Wallace lasted until the 3rd round to Pittsburgh. Had Davis drafted Wallace in the top 10, rather than Heyward-Bey, draftniks would have screamed "Reach!". And he would have come up with one of the premier deep threats in the league.

Lesson? It doesn't matter if a team drafts off past performance or athletic ability or some combo of the two. What matters is getting the pick right. It's the only thing that counts.

BigBull17
03-01-2012, 09:21 AM
Agreed about the speed thing

Toon is a little too injury pron for my liking. He should be availabe and a bargain in the 3rd/4th rd.

Another guy that uyou're describing that I like alot is Danny Coale. My #1 guy for the Texans is Randle. He ran a 4.55 be is much faster than that in pads. In/Out of his breaks.

thats the other part. Some people run fast in under armor gear but lose a lot of speed with pads on. Some lose little or none. Kendal Wright rana a slow 40, but I watched almost every Baylor game this year and he plays VERY fast.

cbs1507
03-01-2012, 03:49 PM
Scout has Hill rated as the 7th best WR (http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2012&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=16) behind both Sanu & Randle. How would you feel if the Texans selected Hill before both?

Scout.com doesn't list Hill in the top 50 players (http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2012&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4). Wouldn't you be upset if the Texans picked someone not in the top 50 at 26?

I'm sure those guys speak on behalf of NFL teams...:kubepalm:

CBS has him ranked in the top 5
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft

NFL Draft Scout has him ranked in the top 5 as well
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=WR&draftyear=2012&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC

Scout.com apparently hasn't even updated anything since the combine. I heard somewhere that teams were turned off of Alshon Jeffery after his interviews. Not sure how much weight that carries. But Hill's draft stock seemed to have improved after the combine (from workouts and interviews).

badboy
03-01-2012, 04:08 PM
Agreed about the speed thing

Toon is a little too injury pron for my liking. He should be availabe and a bargain in the 3rd/4th rd.Another guy that uyou're describing that I like alot is Danny Coale. My #1 guy for the Texans is Randle. He ran a 4.55 be is much faster than that in pads. In/Out of his breaks.Curious, if a player is injury prone why is he a value at any round? Unless you're saying the risk of injury is proportional to the pick?

badboy
03-01-2012, 04:10 PM
Does anyone have him ranked in the top 32? Anyone have him rated higher than Floyd? or Sanu?

I like that he is athletic.. & his combine numbers show he's explosive. If our coaches believe they can "correct" his catching mechanics, I have no problem drafting this guy, even with our first. Especially if his run blocking (from the receiver position) is as polished as has been mentioned here.

You can teach a person how to catch, how to run routes. You can't teach 4.3 speed, or 6'4", or 215lbs. This is freak territory.... elite athlete. The coaches have to do their job to make him an elite football player.TK are you saying everyone but JJ and Trindon Holliday?

badboy
03-01-2012, 04:13 PM
thats the other part. Some people run fast in under armor gear but lose a lot of speed with pads on. Some lose little or none. Kendal Wright rana a slow 40, but I watched almost every Baylor game this year and he plays VERY fast.Let's not forget an electronic system clocked Wright at 4.45. 610 KILT mentioned that Tuesday morning.

Playoffs
03-01-2012, 04:31 PM
Let's not forget an electronic system clocked Wright at 4.45. 610 KILT mentioned that Tuesday morning.I heard a few hand times at 4.47, too.

thunderkyss
03-01-2012, 04:47 PM
The top 2 WRs from the '09 draft have been Hakeem Nicks and Mike Wallace. Wallace ran a 4.33 forty at the combine, .03 seconds slower than Heyward-Bey. Wallace's stats in college were similar to Heyward-Bey. His speed was similar to Heyward-Bey. Yet, Wallace lasted until the 3rd round to Pittsburgh. Had Davis drafted Wallace in the top 10, rather than Heyward-Bey, draftniks would have screamed "Reach!". And he would have come up with one of the premier deep threats in the league.

Lesson? It doesn't matter if a team drafts off past performance or athletic ability or some combo of the two. What matters is getting the pick right. It's the only thing that counts.

Or..... he would have got Jamarcus Russelled; he would not have had much success, the coaches didn't "seem" to care, the players didn't "seem" to care; Wallace may very well have been out of the league by now.

Heyward-bey may have ended up being the Steelers third round pick & 31 teams would be salivating at the thoughts of picking him up in FA while the Steelers try to find as much money as they can to sign him to a long term deal.

I personally think we've got good coaches here. I think the culture we have in Houston inspires everyone to be all they can be. I would have no problem bringing that kind of talent into this team, because you're not going to get it in the 3rd....

Lucky
03-01-2012, 06:40 PM
Or..... he would have got Jamarcus Russelled; he would not have had much success, the coaches didn't "seem" to care, the players didn't "seem" to care; Wallace may very well have been out of the league by now.
I do believe there is a nature vs nurture component in evaluating draft choices. Though your example is beyond extreme. Asomugha excelled in Oakland despite the chaos around him. Talent and desire eventually shine through.

I think a team should lean to drafting to their system, as long as they aren't passing on an extraordinary talent. If a player is great, you need to find a place for him in your system. Andre Johnson would be great in any system. Patrick Willis, the same. You find a place for a player like that. Otherwise, draft the best player that fits your organization.

Maddict5
03-02-2012, 07:08 AM
You can teach a person how to catch, how to run routes. You can't teach 4.3 speed, or 6'4", or 215lbs. This is freak territory.... elite athlete.

that mantra has led to the majority of draft day busts

NastyNate
03-02-2012, 12:18 PM
that mantra has led to the majority of draft day busts

Yessir indeedy.

Playoffs
03-02-2012, 02:13 PM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Scouts say Stephen Hill is "similar" to Demaryius Thomas coming out of #GeorgiaTech. Hill a "tad better route runner": bit.ly/AmTEhL

Wolf6151
03-02-2012, 03:13 PM
I'm sure those guys speak on behalf of NFL teams...:kubepalm:

CBS has him ranked in the top 5
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft



CBS has him ranked #32. Top 5?

Wolf6151
03-02-2012, 03:17 PM
Can teams bring in players for private workouts prior to the draft? I'd like to see the Texans bring in Hill and Streeter for workouts if possible. Both have elite athleticism but not much of a history at the position in college, they'd be risky picks.

thunderkyss
03-02-2012, 05:00 PM
Scout.com apparently hasn't even updated anything since the combine.

& that's the point. I know it's a pre-combine rating. I also know they are not NFL personnel managers or scouts. But Scott Pioli, Ted Thompson, & Floyd Reese aren't returning my calls.

I personally don't have a problem with going against the grain & gambling every now & then.

Lucky
03-02-2012, 05:57 PM
Can teams bring in players for private workouts prior to the draft?
Teams can (and will) bring players in for interviews. But, they can't work them out. They can go to private workouts near the player's home. Not sure I understand what the difference is. Insurance issues, perhaps?

beerlover
03-02-2012, 07:34 PM
Teams can (and will) bring players in for interviews. But, they can't work them out. They can go to private workouts near the player's home. Not sure I understand what the difference is. Insurance issues, perhaps?

Teams can workout a defined limited number of players. Believe there is a specific window of time as well.

Lucky
03-02-2012, 09:56 PM
Can teams bring in players for private workouts prior to the draft?

Teams can (and will) bring players in for interviews. But, they can't work them out. They can go to private workouts near the player's home.

Teams can workout a defined limited number of players. Believe there is a specific window of time as well.

Here are the NFL's rules governing draft prospect visits (per profootballtalk.com (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/05/breaking-down-the-rules-regarding-pre-draft-rookie-visits/)).

As NFL spokesman Randall Liu explained it via e-mail, each team may transport a maximum of 30 draft-eligible players to the team’s home city or another location for a one-day physical examination. These players cannot be timed and tested. Interviews and written tests may be conducted during the visit.


Liu said there is no limit on the number of prospects tested by a team on campus. Clubs also may time draft-eligible players, conduct on-field tests of draft-eligible players, and administer written tests to draft-eligible players in the metropolitan area of the player’s campus or hometown, at college postseason all-star game practice sessions, provided that the player is a participant in the all-star game, at a League-approved workout (Indianapolis Combine, NFL Regional Combines), and at the campus of any college located in the same state as the player’s college, provided that the player is attending a school in NCAA Division I-AA (Football Championship Subdivision), II, or III, an NAIA school, or a junior college, and further provided that the timing and testing only occurs on a school’s Pro Day, but only if the players have received permission from the hosting school’s Pro Liaison.


Players who attend college or reside in a club’s “metropolitan area” can be given a physical examination without counting against the 30-player limit, unless the club provides transportation for the visit. Also, a player who attends college or whose hometown is in a club’s “metropolitan area” may be timed and tested at the club’s facility, as long as the club does not provide transportation.


“Metropolitan area” is defined as contiguous suburbs. There isn’t a 25-mile, 50-mile, or any other type of mileage radius rule. The league office uses the 2011 Rand-McNally Road Atlas to determine the metropolitan area of a city.


So there you have it. Aren’t you glad you asked?

beerlover
03-02-2012, 10:48 PM
This is a good read: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/05/our-discoveries-after-tracking-pre-draft-visits-and-workouts/

1. In 2011, twelve of the top-14 picks either worked out for or visited their team before the draft. The only players who did not work out for or visit the team they were picked by were Texans defensive end J.J. Watt and Jaguars quarterback Blaine Gabbert. Jags G.M. Gene Smith did personally attend Gabbertís Insight Bowl game against Iowa, however, and the Texans donít use pre-draft visits on first-round prospects.

2. Some teams donít use any pre-draft visits on elite prospects. The Texans, Bears, Jaguars, and Packers concern themselves almost strictly with late-round, undrafted types when scheduling visits. For example, the player drafted earliest with whom we know Green Bay formally visited was Markell Carter, the 194th overall pick. The Raiders and Colts, for the most part, also fall into this category.
And either the Houston media is not at all concerned with reporting pre-draft visits and workouts, or the Texans just donít have many of them. (Our guess is the former.) We counted a league-low six Texans pre-draft visits, and each team is allowed up to 30

3. 21 of this yearís 32 first-round picks visited or privately worked out for the team that drafted them. One notable outlier was Seahawks tackle James Carpenter. ďWe tried staying under the radar with this guy,Ē Seattle G.M. John Schneider confirmed during Carpenterís introductory press conference. ďI told our group Ö we were very proud of them that his name never got out.Ē The Seahawks rated Carpenter as the No. 2 offensive lineman in the entire draft.

But the connection is still strong between first-round picks and pre-draft meetings. Throw out the Texans, Bears, Jaguars, Packers, and Colts for reasons mentioned in point No. 2 here, and there was a 77.8 percent chance that a teamís first-round selection officially visited with or privately worked out for the organization he landed in.

IDEXAN
03-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Big, fast receiver with tons of upside: anybody else besides me think Dorin Dickerson when they see this guy ?

thunderkyss
03-03-2012, 06:29 PM
Big, fast receiver with tons of upside: anybody else besides me think Dorin Dickerson when they see this guy ?

Dorin Dickerson was a different kind of big. 6'2" - 227lbs

Stephen Hill is 6'4" - 215lbs.

Hill is closer to Calvin Johnson "big".... 6'5" 235lbs or Plaxico Burress (about the same)

Dorin Dickerson is closer to Andre Johnson "big" 6'3" - 226

76Texan
03-03-2012, 09:19 PM
I've been able to watch 4 of his games so far (and highlights from a few more).

I really like his potential.
There was only one true drop.
If the QB was a little more accurate, has a little stronger arm (all I ask for is a 40yd pass straight downfield) and can read coverage a little quicker, Hill could have had anywhere from 120-190 more yards in just those 4 games.
In the Kansas game, only one pass was thrown to him.
In the N.C.St. game, only two passes were thrown to him; he caught one for 40 and beat coverage deep on another long pass play but the QB missed badly - Hill had a couple of step on the receiver due to good route running, stemming outside to get the CB to open up his hip before he cut inside toward the post.

The claim that he's a poor route runner is simply untrue.
He can put on different moves on different routes to get open and he understands where the open spot in the zone is.

His blocking is very good already for just a college player.
In the Kansas game for example, he neutralized the CB on three long long run and several medium runs. He performed this task well in all 4 games I've watched so far.

He has great hip flexibility and can make cut after cut. One one play, he made 4 cuts making 4 guys miss; that's pretty amazing for a tall receiver.
And he put on some nice moves/cuts that made guys miss on some other plays as well.
He has a great intitial burst and can change gear really well for such a tall guy.
You expect these things from a Kendall Wright.

I still have 4 more games (from this year) to watch and several more from 2010.

Early impressions tell me that he's a better receiver/player than Jacoby.
He will be a steal in the third round.
He looks to me to be at least a 2nd rounder.
I want to put him in the first round, but I think I'll wait to watch more of his game.

So far I've seen him ran the following routes:
Post
Skinny post
Streak/fly
Stick
Deep comeback
Deep fade
Short fade
Hook
Hitch
Slant
Drag
Deep out
Deep In
Wheel

I haven't seen him run a post-corner or a flag route yet.
But basically, he had run all the other routes and was open or at least had some seperation from the DB a good majority of the time.
(I can see ony about 25-30 passing plays due to TV angle.

If he checks out the same in the rest of the games that I intend to watch; I would have to put him the first round.

So far, I'm more impressed with him than Toon or Jeffery (both of whom I had made a note 3 years ago that it looked like they will play on Sunday. I was scouting Kareem Jackson when I first noticed Jeffery, and Garrett Graham when I noticed Toon. I think I had briefly mentioned them in the scouting reports on KJ and Graham.)

badboy
03-03-2012, 09:24 PM
There will be a whole lotta film study of Hill next 7 weeks.

76Texan
03-03-2012, 10:18 PM
There will be a whole lotta film study of Hill next 7 weeks.

I know, so how about just let me start in this same thread.

Here goes!

Week 1 vs. W. Carolina.
(I did not watch this game).

Hill took a quick swing pass, gave a good stiff arm, and outran the rest of the secondary for an 82 yd TD. It was an easy catch; here it just demonstrate his speed. And the stiff arm helped.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312440059


If any of the links doesn't get you to the right play, I apologize, just look around (it won't take long).

On a simple post route, the off-side safety was supposed (IMO) to get back into coverage deep (while the on side safety played underneath).
It doesn't matter; this just showed Hill's tremendous speed.
And he reached back to plug the late ball very well.

Hill caught 4 balls for a total of 181 yds (2 TDs) in this game.
The official game book did not show any other pass attempt toward him.
(There were another receiver Jones, who dropped at least 2 passes at quick scan.)

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/driveSummary.jsp?expand=A&acadyr=2011&h=255&v=769&date=01-SEP-11&game=201100000025520110901

76Texan
03-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Week 2 vs. Middle Tennessee
(I did not watch this game either)

The Yellow jackets attempted only 10 passes (8 by the starter Washington).
Hill caught 3 for 126 yards (including the 71 yd TD pass.)

On the 71yd TD pass, Hill lined up as the widest receiver in a tight formation and ran a simple post route.

There was nothing to it as the safeties failed.
Note that Hill did have to reach back to grab the ball.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312532393


On the following 43yd catch, Hill lined up outside the hashmarks.
He ran a seam route and did a good job stemming to the inside of the hashmarks before swerving back outside the hashmarks (look carefully at the beginning of the route.)
This gave him the seperation needed to catch the ball.
He also did a good job concentrating on the ball even with the contact.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312532393


(3rd and 9) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S. (Ikner, Arness)

(2nd and 15) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S. (Edwards, T.L.).

The two plays above showed incompletions, but did not denote any dropped pass.
I don't know how he ran the routes, since I didn't watch the game.

Both guys with names in parentheses are CBs, so it's either a pass defended or the DB was close enough to the play to get credit.
Whether the passes were incompleted due to no separation or a good play by the DB or a poor throw by the QB or whatever, we don't know.
But they weren't dropped passes.

The descriptions of the plays were taken from the official ncaa game book.
I use them (similarly as I use the nfl.com gamebook) to help while breaking down game tapes. For the most part, they are pretty consistent... but I can't be held against some sloppy work (yes, there were and always will be - normal human error, I'm not the exception.)

76Texan
03-03-2012, 10:38 PM
Week 3 vs. Kansas
(I did watch this game; there wasn't much passing, but we can learn a lot about Hill's blocking skills and how he went hard at his routes - unlike Meachem for the Saints.)

The Yellow Jackets running game was in high gear as they ran 50 times for 604 yards.
Washington (the QB) attempted only 7 passes.

Hill caught a short one for 4 yards without much chance to advance the ball.

He did a good job blocking and ran his routes hard even when the ball went the opposite way.

He took out the CB completely on 3 long running plays toward his side, and he did a pretty good job on several intermediate runs 15-25 yards.
No, he didn't win every blocking assignment, but not for lack of trying.

Overall, the Yellow Jackets' receivers worked hard at their blocking (it's very likely a requirement for them to stay on the field.)
Hill probably did the best job out there on this day (among the receivers on blocking assignments.)
I only use the term "probably" as not to slight the effort of the other guys, but there was no denying Hill's dominance on his defender.

And he was eager to congratulate his teammates on their success (including TDs).
I like his attitude.

What I can appreciate is when a guy still runs his routes hard even when he knows the ball isn't coming his way.
It's good work habit, and it makes the CB/safety work hard just the same.
It keeps them on their heels, and it helps the running game tremendously.

badboy
03-03-2012, 10:43 PM
The rep I've read is DBs just don't pay much attention to him & his yardage is because he is wide open on a small number of plays. That will not happen often in NFL. I don't mean to sound as if I am against Hill, I just did not watch him and he sounds risky.

76Texan
03-03-2012, 11:13 PM
The rep I've read is DBs just don't pay much attention to him & his yardage is because he is wide open on a small number of plays. That will not happen often in NFL. I don't mean to sound as if I am against Hill, I just did not watch him and he sounds risky.

That's not the case, as it will become a little more clear as I continue with the film study.

There are times that the D sent the CB in to defend the triple option and the safety bombed.

To say that DB doesn't pay attention to Hill is just nonsense.

How do you purposedly allow a receiver with deep speed to run past you.
Hell, if he drops 3 passes (which wasn't the case to begin with) and catches one, it would still be a long TD.

If the number of times that he gets open due to a mishap in a D that makes me all riled up about Hill, I would be a fool.

...

For some reason, it's hard for me to distinguish between badboy and beerlover at times, LOL - you guys are working so much in tune (martin is a bit different; probably because he diverts quite a bit of attention to small school prospects).

But at any rate, one of you mentioned that as scouts, one can find value in a case like this... where the QB is not all that good, and the system doesn't showcase the true talent of a receiver (even if it gives him wide-open chance at times).
We can say the same about the Stanford TE as many of his catches were also wide-open due to the scheme/mishap by the D.

I scratch out most of those plays.
But I do note how they run their route on those plays.
Like I said, if you don't pay attention to the details (their body's movement - whether they telegraph the play as a run rather than a pass; all sort of things) then you're more likely to miss out on a prospect (off-the-field problem is a different thing.)

Playoffs
03-03-2012, 11:25 PM
...film study...Great stuff & always appreciated, 76. :clap:

Grrr .... MSR.

Getting excited about this guy.

steelbtexan
03-03-2012, 11:29 PM
Great stuff & always appreciated, 76. :clap:

Grrr .... MSR.

Getting excited about this guy.

Got him

I really appreciate all of the info 76 provides. It must be alot of time/work.

ArlingtonTexan
03-03-2012, 11:33 PM
I am going to let 76 Texans do the film work, but there is a lot about Stephen Hill that smells Texans.

1) They like guys with a good overall athletic profile (see Texans' chick's work)
2) Good character..all indication are that he has it, but we never really know
3) REally don't need long history of production.

Biggest negative

Don't seem to draft the "darlings" or "hot" names.

beerlover
03-03-2012, 11:38 PM
I like the fact that in recent years Georgia Tech has produced some big time WR's. Something tells me it's not just by chance.

76Texan
03-03-2012, 11:45 PM
Thanks guys, the film study is exclusively for Texanstalk.
It has always been the appreciation that kept me going at it.
And it's only for Texans fans!

Yeah, it takes up a lot of time, but I'm used to going to sleep with headphones over my ears.

I'm having a few beers so I don't know if I can continue posting the next few game studies. (They are ready, just copy and paste; but I always change up things a bit as I post them.)

I need a good break, but then again, I might come back real soon.

76Texan
03-04-2012, 12:25 AM
OK, I will try one more game, if I can only finish it, because it's a little bit long.

I will try to counter the blogger SpredAloha, each of our take is obviously our own narrative. You can add them to your own or disregard both to form an opinion.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/27/2827529/stephen-hill

Week 4 vs. NC

To defend Ga Tech triple option, UNC sometimes brought the CB up to line, leaving the safety to defend any deep route from the receiver.
If the safety also bought the run, the receiver would run right past him.

1st Qtr

Example One: 0:07 Seconds (based on the blogger's video)

(3rd and 15) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 12 yards to the NC23 (Brown, C).

I'm going to go long with this one, even though it doesn't matter all that much at the end of the day.
I just want to say that I try to study both the offense and the defense; how they go at it on the particular play (if I was to study the QB, it would take even longer.)

The defense showed a cover 2 shell (2 deep safeties); however, with the LCB playing some 9 yards off the LOS, the D could end up playing 1/4 on play side.

The offense ran a cover-2 beater (that is also effective vs. cover 3 or cover 4).
Ga Tech flooded the outside zone with a Hi-Lo concept at work where the wide-out ran a deep route on an outside release requiring the LCB to sink deep or the safety coming over the top.

Tech then inserted Hill (from the slot) underneath near the side line with either an out route or a curl of some sort.

The mot inside receiver (lining up in the TE Y posiion) ran a crossing route to further distract the play side safety.

As all 3 LBs looked to play the run first (even on third and very long), when the 3 players on play side released, none of them followed , denoting some form of a zone coverage.

When a receiver saw zone coverage, they are (supposedly) taught to find the open space in the zone.


The first problem here was the wde-out who lined up on the line (2 yards ahead of Hill). He didn't burst off the line hard enough; notice that he was barely deeper than Hill 5 yards past the LOS and even seems to slow down as Hill made the cut.

He failed to induce the LCB to declare his coverage earlier (whether he would turn and run with the wide out in quarter coverage) or reacted back toward the flat/curl (if they were in cover 2, 5-under).


Secondly, the QB didn't do a great job either.
He could try to sell the underneath out-route to force the LCB to come back so that he (the QB) can fire the ball over the top to the wide-out, or he could get the ball to Hill sooner so his receiver can make a move in an attempt to beat the LCB in space for a first down.

As it was, the ball was late; Hill had to wait and wait for it to get there.
He reached out with both hands extending to catch the ball (good).
But since the ball was late, the CB had time to come back and made a good ankle tackle, preventing much YAC (about 2-3).


What might have happened if Hill had run hard 10 yards and made a sharp cut as the square out route requires?
Nothing differently, I don't think.

Due to the same execution by the wide-out and the QB, the CB would arrive to make the play just the same.

Rounding off the route a couple of yards early allowed Hill to get the open space in the zone early.
If the QB had gotten the ball to him right away, he would have a much better opportunity to make his move before the CB reacted and before the MLB had the chance to drop back into coverage.

I'm not sure whether Hill was required to run the route precisely at 10 yd or he was taught to adjust to coverage the way he did.
All I know is that by going with the latter, he had a chance to gain the first down (if the QB had delivered the ball a little sooner.)

Squaring up the route helps to push the safety back, but since the safety never attempted to play up close, it served no real purpose; the way I see it.
It made no difference to the CB who was the one who made the tackle.


For all we know, Hill might have been running a speed out and not a deep-out.

I've seen a triple-option playbook from Ga. Southern that calls for a speed-out up to 6 yards past the LOS (speed-out doesn't require a square cut.)

With Hill lining up 2 yards behind the LOS and being a tall receiver with long strides, his 5 steps took him to 7 yards, which is not much of a stretch.

The reason it looks like he was "shuffling" was because he wanted to settle in the zone; running further toward the side line would only bring him closer to the LCB.

I disagree with the blogger on the principle "if it's man coverage, you continue with the route, if it's zone, you find a place to sit in the soft spot".

76Texan
03-04-2012, 12:26 AM
Example Two: 0:15

(3rd and 5) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 13 yards to the NC20, 1ST DOWN GT (Boston, T).

This was the one-handed grab that Lucky showed in one of those vids earlier in the thread.
Replays from different angles showed a fantastic catch (Megatron and AJ Green-type).

Hill ran a wheel route from the left slot, and caught the ball in a fade out position along the side line.

The left wide-out ran a skinny post to sink the RCB deep in cover 3.

Hill stretched his frame to the utmost to reel the ball in, absorbed the hit and kept both feet inbound.

This is the type of catch that shows his potential as an NFL-caliber receiver.

76Texan
03-04-2012, 12:41 AM
The blogger left out this TD catch.

2nd Qtr

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312670059

(1st and 10) GEORGIA TECH drive start at 08:05.

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 59 yards to the NC0, 1ST DOWN GT, TOUCHDOWN, clock 07:57.

As I've mentioned, to defend Ga Tech triple option, teams sometimes brought the CB up to line, leaving the safety to defend any deep route from the receiver.
If the safety also bought the run, the receiver would run right past him.
This is the case where UNC brought the CB up to the line.

Hill was wide open on a simple go route along the side line.
The pass was behind where Hill had to slow down and turned his body back 90 degree (such that his shoulders were parallel to the side line) to catch the ball with both hands at chest level and pulled it in.

This one went for a TD, but he will drop a similar ball in the 4th qtr.

This was only a 29-yd pass and the QB was already short with the throw, just to make a note.
Wide-open receiver, no pressure.

76Texan
03-04-2012, 12:45 AM
Example Three: 1:02

(1st and 10) Timeout Georgia Tech, clock 01:38.
(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 34 yards to the NC5, 1ST DOWN GT, out-of-bounds (Boston, T).


Hill lined up on the left, just inside the number.

He had enough room to run this fade route without having to stem inside, but he did anyway within his first 5 steps.
He pushed the RCB inside, giving him plenty of room along the side line on this deep fade route.

Hill also did a very good job fighting off the hold off the CB (they let 'em play on this one), turned around and caught the ball that was thrown to the outside (as a fade is supposed to be thrown, however slightly underthrown as the blogger mentioned).

Excellent effort by Hill on this one as it required concentration and ball skill (he didn't have time to catch the ball cleanly, but managed to pull it in.)

He never had the chance to adjust to the ball as the CB pulled him back by the jersey above the chest close to his left shoulder pad in an effort to make it difficult for him to turn around.

This is another NFL-caliber big time catch, the way I see it.
In the NFL, a PI would have been called.

The blogger criticized the catch here because he didn't see the hold by the CB (but he did note in example four that Hill didn't have time to extend his arms in this play, which is example 3.)

BullNation4Life
03-04-2012, 08:07 AM
You can teach a player how to catch a ball better, if they are willing to learn...

You can't teach a player to be 6'4 and run a 4.3....

Put this kid under Andre Johnson, he will be a Pro Bowl player by his 5th season...

Book it....

ArlingtonTexan
03-05-2012, 10:08 PM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d82764080/article/workout-wonder-hill-suddenly-under-the-scouting-microscope?module=HP11_content_stream

Mr teX
03-05-2012, 10:34 PM
You can teach a player how to catch a ball better, if they are willing to learn...

You can't teach a player to be 6'4 and run a 4.3....

Put this kid under Andre Johnson, he will be a Pro Bowl player by his 5th season...

Book it....

Like Braylon Edwards or Corey Bradford or Jacoby Jones? I could go on for days naming guys who had everything but good hands & failed in the NFL b/c of that. So as you have probably garnered by now, i disagree completely. ..you either have good hands or you dont.

Catching isn't a skill that is honed easily like that...the level of skill needed to be a good hands WR in the NFL where db's are all over you takes alot longer than 5 years and whomever waits for that guy that long to develop into a pro bowl WR is either a moron or they've got GB depth a WR. If we select him, then you already know the answer to that question. Dude will be expected to produce in 2. He should be expected to produce in that time frame anyway if he goes in the 1st. But if this guy can't even handle catching in traffic amongst college cb's, whomever takes him is going to be in for a rude awakening when he gets to the pros.

You never hear of a guy who came into the league with marginal hands, they work hard on catching for a few years & they become a good to great WR let alone 1 who was selected in the 1st round like this guy is projected.

Stay away from this guy Rick PLEASE!!!!!!!!

badboy
03-05-2012, 10:42 PM
That's not the case, as it will become a little more clear as I continue with the film study.

There are times that the D sent the CB in to defend the triple option and the safety bombed.

To say that DB doesn't pay attention to Hill is just nonsense.

How do you purposedly allow a receiver with deep speed to run past you.
Hell, if he drops 3 passes (which wasn't the case to begin with) and catches one, it would still be a long TD.

If the number of times that he gets open due to a mishap in a D that makes me all riled up about Hill, I would be a fool.

...

For some reason, it's hard for me to distinguish between badboy and beerlover at times, LOL - you guys are working so much in tune (martin is a bit different; probably because he diverts quite a bit of attention to small school prospects).

But at any rate, one of you mentioned that as scouts, one can find value in a case like this... where the QB is not all that good, and the system doesn't showcase the true talent of a receiver (even if it gives him wide-open chance at times).
We can say the same about the Stanford TE as many of his catches were also wide-open due to the scheme/mishap by the D.

I scratch out most of those plays.
But I do note how they run their route on those plays.
Like I said, if you don't pay attention to the details (their body's movement - whether they telegraph the play as a run rather than a pass; all sort of things) then you're more likely to miss out on a prospect (off-the-field problem is a different thing.)I have often mentioned in PMs during college seasons to Beerlover how much we think alike and how we evaluate players. However, we often disagree. He is all over Hill while Rmartin65 & I are a bit more reluctant. We break down the same way on LSU's Randle btw.

ALso note that ny comment was I've read defenses often disregarded Hill. I have not seen that myself as I did not watch him. I do appreciate the work you put in on film work.

Lucky
03-05-2012, 10:44 PM
You never hear of a guy who came into the league with marginal hands, they work hard on catching for a few years & they become a good to great WR let alone 1 who was selected in the 1st round like this guy is projected.
I'm not comparing Hill (or anyone else) to Andre Johnson. But AJ came into the league as a body catcher with questionable hands. He got better every year. All I'm saying is, never say "never" (whoops, I broke my own rule).

Mr teX
03-05-2012, 11:14 PM
I'm not comparing Hill (or anyone else) to Andre Johnson. But AJ came into the league as a body catcher with questionable hands. He got better every year. All I'm saying is, never say "never" (whoops, I broke my own rule).

That was just a case where scouts were trying to find something.....anything to knock him on..that's pretty much how the scouting process spins out of control at times. here's a few #1 overall picks "knocks"..some real, some imagined.

in 98' the knock on Peyton coming out was that "he couldn't win the big one" & that he'd peaked.
in 01' the knock on Vick was that he wasn't a polished enough passer; runs too much..
in 06' the "knock" on Mario was his motor...

you get my drift. The point i'm trying to make is that I don't think anyone gave serious credence to what you're saying regarding AJ. That was just a case where some dumb ass scout was overthinking during the scouting process..After that NC game he had, i think overall people knew what they were getting when AJ entered the draft...a beast...Stephen Hill.....................not so much & people weren't even thinking about this kid until he showed up in Indy.

beerlover
03-05-2012, 11:19 PM
I have often mentioned in PMs during college seasons to Beerlover how much we think alike and how we evaluate players. However, we often disagree. He is all over Hill while Rmartin65 & I are a bit more reluctant. We break down the same way on LSU's Randle btw.

ALso note that ny comment was I've read defenses often disregarded Hill. I have not seen that myself as I did not watch him. I do appreciate the work you put in on film work.

Hill is a long, athletic, thoroughbred WR with good sized soft hands who left GT with 25.47 yards per reception, which would have easily broken the school record, but fell one reception short of qualifying for the record book (minimum 50 receptions) all that following in the footsteps of Calvin Johnson & Demaryius Thomas. Unlike those other two big receivers his specialty is his long speed. But Hill is much more than than just a deep threat, he can block, run route tree & is a team player, not a diva, very rare quality. In this offense paired with Andre Johnson he should continue to haul in big receptions, maybe not that many, but enough to probably led the league in yards per reception. Hard to define a value on that but think the results might just justify the risk.

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 11:24 PM
Got him

I really appreciate all of the info 76 provides. It must be alot of time/work.Thanks, back at ya.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 12:03 PM
That was just a case where scouts were trying to find something.....anything to knock him on..that's pretty much how the scouting process spins out of control at times. here's a few #1 overall picks "knocks"..some real, some imagined.

in 98' the knock on Peyton coming out was that "he couldn't win the big one" & that he'd peaked.
in 01' the knock on Vick was that he wasn't a polished enough passer; runs too much..
in 06' the "knock" on Mario was his motor...

you get my drift. The point i'm trying to make is that I don't think anyone gave serious credence to what you're saying regarding AJ. That was just a case where some dumb ass scout was overthinking during the scouting process..After that NC game he had, i think overall people knew what they were getting when AJ entered the draft...a beast...Stephen Hill.....................not so much & people weren't even thinking about this kid until he showed up in Indy.

Amateur draftniks like us don't have time to follow every team in the country.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Hill is a long, athletic, thoroughbred WR with good sized soft hands who left GT with 25.47 yards per reception, which would have easily broken the school record, but fell one reception short of qualifying for the record book (minimum 50 receptions) all that following in the footsteps of Calvin Johnson & Demaryius Thomas. Unlike those other two big receivers his specialty is his long speed. But Hill is much more than than just a deep threat, he can block, run route tree & is a team player, not a diva, very rare quality. In this offense paired with Andre Johnson he should continue to haul in big receptions, maybe not that many, but enough to probably led the league in yards per reception. Hard to define a value on that but think the results might just justify the risk.

I find it's odd that Waldman (from the Q&A thread with TC in the main forum) thinks that Hill is seriously lacking at blocking. He even says that Ga Tech didn't run much toward Hill's side. Not what I saw.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 12:12 PM
Like Braylon Edwards or Corey Bradford or Jacoby Jones? I could go on for days naming guys who had everything but good hands & failed in the NFL b/c of that. So as you have probably garnered by now, i disagree completely. ..you either have good hands or you dont.

Catching isn't a skill that is honed easily like that...the level of skill needed to be a good hands WR in the NFL where db's are all over you takes alot longer than 5 years and whomever waits for that guy that long to develop into a pro bowl WR is either a moron or they've got GB depth a WR. If we select him, then you already know the answer to that question. Dude will be expected to produce in 2. He should be expected to produce in that time frame anyway if he goes in the 1st. But if this guy can't even handle catching in traffic amongst college cb's, whomever takes him is going to be in for a rude awakening when he gets to the pros.

You never hear of a guy who came into the league with marginal hands, they work hard on catching for a few years & they become a good to great WR let alone 1 who was selected in the 1st round like this guy is projected.

Stay away from this guy Rick PLEASE!!!!!!!!

1. Did you see marginal hands from Hill at the combine or in several plays last season?

2. Catching the ball in traffic is one thing; you can't expect a receiver who had to catch the ball with a defender coming straight at him to be able to hold on to the ball every time (due to a late throw by the QB; ie. Andrew Luck's style.)
And when did you notice that Hill didn't do a good job at catching the ball "in traffic"; can you bring up a few examples - there must be several to make you feel so uncomfortable about the guy.

Playoffs
03-06-2012, 02:53 PM
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons-blog/2012/03/06/hill-has-strong-showing-at-georgia-techs-pro-day/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_falcons_blog

Mayock short video interview of Hill linked above -- get a bit of a sense of who he is.

Georgia Tech's Pro Day was today.

Mr teX
03-06-2012, 03:23 PM
1. Did you see marginal hands from Hill at the combine or in several plays last season?

2. Catching the ball in traffic is one thing; you can't expect a receiver who had to catch the ball with a defender coming straight at him to be able to hold on to the ball every time (due to a late throw by the QB; ie. Andrew Luck's style.)
And when did you notice that Hill didn't do a good job at catching the ball "in traffic"; can you bring up a few examples - there must be several to make you feel so uncomfortable about the guy.

Here's what i see with this guy:


1..if you call dropping passes when you're wiiiidddeee open then yes i did see marginal hands b/c I hardly saw any "hands" catches at all....not even on hitch routes. i saw nothing from a hands perspective that wowed me & made me think this guy is worthy of a 1st round pick. You can contrast this with almost every WR thought to be going in the 1st 2 rounds & it's not even close honestly. I could care less about the combine b/c you're not playing against anyone out there.

I admit, the catching in traffic thing was more of an educated guess by me considering that the bulk of his catches are made when he's running/sitting wide open. That will be a rarity in the NFL & he'll likely have guys draped all over him. That statement was made more with the thought of him not reacting favorably to this having been wide open all the damn time. When he was covered, more often than not, you hardly ever saw him displaying that obvious superior athleticism to win....if the ball wasn't out in front of him.

Other things i noticed: he doesn't appear to have good awareness with his feet on sideline throws. Even on plays where he got both feet in...he made it look more close than it probably should've been. He also doesn't appear to play as fast as his combine 40 time indicates imo. And all in all, there's just not enough production there to say that GT's offense & qb play was the main thing holding him back. Calvin Johnson played in the same offense if im correct & he was a monster for 2 years.

He reminds me a ton of Roy Williams out of UT. Dude was dubbed a "genetic phenomenon" by scouts & homers alike....got in the pros & well, you know the rest.

Playoffs
03-06-2012, 05:21 PM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
More Mayock on #GeorgiaTech WR Stephen Hill: "I don't think this kid gets out of the 1st round. I think he's a late 1, worst case early 2."

More Mayock on Stephen Hill: "His hands are great. Hands snatcher, catches ball very easily. Drops were about lack of discipline, maturity."

Mayock on Stephen Hill's Pro Day: "Trust me folks, he helped himself. ... For 6'4/215, he's got great feet. Great job in & out of breaks."

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:00 PM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
More Mayock on #GeorgiaTech WR Stephen Hill: "I don't think this kid gets out of the 1st round. I think he's a late 1, worst case early 2."

More Mayock on Stephen Hill: "His hands are great. Hands snatcher, catches ball very easily. Drops were about lack of discipline, maturity."

Mayock on Stephen Hill's Pro Day: "Trust me folks, he helped himself. ... For 6'4/215, he's got great feet. Great job in & out of breaks."

Mayock saw him pretty much the same as I do; I'm at week 8 right now, but there's still 5 more games to observe. The rating I had on Hill still stands.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:04 PM
More film study on Hill.

(Continuation of the UNC game).

3rd Qtr

(3rd and 5) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 25 yards to the GT49, 1ST DOWN GT (Merletti, M;Boston, T).

Hill lined up in the left slot (there was a wide-out on his outside) and ran a curl route.
Hill did a good job finding the soft spot in the 3-deep zone, turned to the inside, but reached back somewhat to catch the ball to the outside.

This was supposed to be a inside curl route, but Hill ended up catching the ball to the outside (hence adjustment) due to the fact that the sinking LB did a good job tipping the ball barely off his fingertips.
I couldn't tell for sure from the freeze frames whether the LB actually touched the ball, but at the least, he was very close to it.
And the trajectory of the ball seemed to be a little off line.

Instead of giving Hill credit for his concentration, the blogger "lamented" that Hill "body-caught" the ball. I think that's over-scrutinizing.
...

The next play was around the 6:10 mark in the third quarter;
it was in the blogger's video, but he didn't mention it.

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 8 yards to the GT39 (Smith, J;Lipford, D).

Hill lined up wide to the right and caught a simple swing pass.
He did a good job making 2 guys missed, but the third guy came (and one of the guys who missed also came back.)

This play showed Hill's hip flexibility as he made the cuts and turns.
That was a pretty wicked cut he put on the LCB there.
He made the last 5-6 yards on his own, dragging defenders with him.

That is as strong as I've seen from any receiver in this draft class.

Also, on the replay, notice the double move he put on at the beginning of the route. He induced the CB to open up his hip and take a couple of steps back. That was enough to hold off the CB away from the LOS for Hill to catch the ball (seperation.)

There were a couple "NFL" moves in that one short play.

.......

The next play wasn't in the video' it was similar to the previous play.
It shows that Hill knows how to make it easier for him to catch the swing pass.

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

Hill lined up just inside the numbers on the left, on the opposite side from the above-mentioned swing pass.

He took a long faked step forward then retreated to wait for the swing pass.
Again, he induced the CB to open up his hip and moving backward.

The QB threw the ball forward past the LOS, way too far for Hill to catch the ball.
The CB reacted back very well even after the good move by Hill.
This one was on the QB.

Hill can run routes better than he's giving credit for.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:06 PM
4th Qtr

This is the dropped pass that the blogger mentioned in his last example.

(2nd and 7) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S., dropped pass

This is another case where UNC brought the CB up to the line.
Hill was wide open again on another simple go route along the side line.
The pass was slightly behind where Hill had to slow down just a tad and turned back slightly.
There was no excuse for the drop, however.

This is fixable (I hope, LOL).
With more practice, he should learn to adjust his position on the field so that he can catch the ball a little further away from his body and pull it in.

In this instance, he was just waiting for the ball to come to him and catch it wherever the ball happened to arrive.

Also, we want to take into account that the QB can always do a better job leading the receiver as to put Hill in a better position to catch the ball in stride (he was wide open and had not ran that far downfield.)
That was just a 30-yard pass attempt inside number.
An NFL QB has to do better than that.

Again, no excuse for the drop though.

....

Side Note:
Dwight Jones looks solid, but nothing spectacular.
Coples didn't do much; Tech ran away from him quite a bit.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:08 PM
Week 5 vs NC St.

(I also watched this game.)

Washington was 4-12 in passing.

Hill was thrown at twice.

The QB missed badly on a wide-open receiver down the middle on a "sure" TD pass.
Hill caught the other pass for 40 yards.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312740152

That was a good move by Hill, faking to catch a swing pass.
As Hill turned to the inside to look at the QB, the CB bit the fake;
Hill bursted down the side line with plenty of seperation.
It was a good catch with extension of the arms.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:10 PM
The next play occured about 12 sec before the half:

(3rd and 10) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S.

QB missed the wide open receiver badly to the inside.

Either NC St. were in inverted cover 2 (CBs pkayed deep, safeties played underneath) or both safeties bought the play fake big time.

Hill ran a great post route.

Just remember all the 2-man route I had talked about last year or the Galloway 63-yd catch.

Hill split wide (outside the numbers); CB played 8 yds off.
He stemmed outside (faking a go route) to open up the CB to gain seperation as he (Hill) turned back to the inside.

The CB had depth (invert cover 2 and playing off the LOS) but he couldn't manage the width. Hill was a good 2-3 yards away from the CB.


- Announcer "How can you not have some one back (there) helping on the inside. There's no way the coaching staff drew a defensive coverage up like that. You can't get any more open than that on a post route. You've got to have a safety in the middle of the field and they have nobody."

...
With a speedy guy like Hill, the safety ought to have good speed and anticipation as when to drop back; otherwise, he wouldn't be able to help in invert-cover 2.

Through 5 games, I noticed only one drop.
We also can see that Hill can run quite a few different routes and he did well running most of those routes.
They weren't simply routes where he blindly run upfield.
The early progonsis after these 5 games are good, to me at least.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:12 PM
Week 6 vs. Maryland
(I watched this game).

1st qtr

Good blocking by Hill on 3 running plays to his side in Tech's first series.

On 3rd and 5, they scored as the QB scrambled to the outside.
Hill had ran a good slant and had seperation from the CB with a double move and fought off the jam quickly, but the QB already decided to run.

....

Second series

On a run play, Hill ran a good post route, taking away both the CB and the safety.
...

3rd and 11) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 16 yards to the 50 yardline, 1ST DOWN GT, out-of-bounds (Chism).

Right slot receiver ran a short hook @ 7yd
Wide-out Hill lined up just inside the numbers and ran some kind of a seam route (can't see cleraly downfield).

As the QB was chased toward the side line, Hill adjusted and came back toward the side line and caught the ball as if it was a deep out but come back (due to adjustment) type of pass for 16 yards.
Hill must have pressed the CB pretty hard to be able to get that much seperation as he came back toward the sideline for the ball.

...

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

Hill lined up outside the numbers and ran an deep outside route;
he stemmed slightly to the inside to move the CB, giving himself plenty of room along the side line (some 6 yards or so) and he had more than a step on the LCB.

The pass was thrown behind and to the inside.
(A correct throw should have been long and to the outside.)

LCB was able to put a hand up in front of the pass; enough to distract Hill from catching the ball.
Some may attempt call this a drop ball; but that won't be my opinion.
It was just a poorly-thrown pass.

Hill had more than a step on the receiver and all the room to the outside.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:18 PM
Second qtr

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

Hill with a shuffling move at the LOS to hold off the CB (we've seen this before);
the swing pass, however, was short and nose dived into the ground in front of him.

...

1st and 10) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

Hill ran a post route, this time on the left side.

The two-deep safeties came down, leaving Hill in one-on-one with the RCB.
Hill had at least a step on the CB and all the room to the inside, but the ball was just long and out of reach (not enough air under it - as the analyst suggested.) It was roughly a 40-yd pass.
Ball didn't have a good spin on it either.

This QB underthrows the ball quite often to other receivers too.

The safeties did get back but they would need to read the play action really well and very quickly if they were to help in the middle... and they need to be fast, too.

Manning and Quin, for example, are pretty fast (for the safety position); I'm not quite sure they can get back in time on such a fast receiver like Hill on this play.

....

2nd and 10) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S.

With 30 secs to go in the half, the D stayed back in coverage;
Hill was in double coverage and might have been interfered with by a DB (he and the crowd wanted a call, but none was forthcoming).

The ball was nowhere near; that's probably why.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:21 PM
3rd qtr

More good blockings by Hill in the running game (several plays).

At 6:15

(2nd and 15) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 34 yards to the MD49, 1ST DOWN GT (Vellano).

Highlights on ESPN

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312810059

It's difficult to see the route, but it's look like Hill ran a square in, found the zone, and made 4 or 5 guys miss.

Nice moves by such a tall and lanky guy, making cut after cut.

...


(3rd and 19) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S. (McDougle).


Deep come back route.
QB got hit as he threw the pass; ball sailed just high, and a tad late.

CB just needed to make contact. Ball was probably too high in the first place; Hlll probably wouldn't be able to catch the ball even without the CB making the contact.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:25 PM
Week 7 vs Va

Tech was only 2-8 for 24 yards and 2 Ints in the passing game.

Hill had one run for 24.
He did not have a catch.

...

First qtr

(1st and 20) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S. (McLeod,R).

From the right slot, Hill ran a quick slant.
He lined up just outside the right hashmarks, went up 5 yards and started making the cut behind the LB.

The ball was thrown way too late (a few steps after he crossed the hashmarks on the other side - into the teeth of zone coverage with the safety also coming up). The ball needed to be thrown before he crossed the hashmark (in the soft spot of the zone and before the safety had time to come up and the RCB to come over.)

As two guys converged on him hi-low; Hill tried to put one hand out to brace his fall and couldn't hang on to the ball with the other hand. He was falling on top of the safety who momentum caused him to undercut Hill from the back side.
The official book did not call a drop ball here, but a fan can always do that.

In the NFL, they don't allow a hi-lo tackle combo like that.
I don't think one guy can undercut a receiver while the other hit him high.

....

Same series

(3rd and 12) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

Against press coverage, Hill fought off the LCB's jam to get outside release and was heading down the side line when the QB got hit just as he threw the ball ; ball had no chance to reach the target - can't see how much room Hill had over the CB.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:30 PM
2nd qtr

(1st and 10) GEORGIA TECH drive start at 14:57.
(1st and 10) Hill, S. rush for 24 yards to the GT44, 1ST DOWN GT (Minnifield,C).

On the reverse, Hill's explosiveness got him past the back side DE (#56) - who showed good hip flexibility - check this guy out). Hill also showed his fluidity in planting and cutting like a RB.
....


1st and 10) Washington, T. pass intercepted by Minnifield,C at the VA40, Minnifield,C return 0 yards to the VA40 (Hill, S.).

Hill lined up wide, between the numbers and the side line and ran a simple fly route down the side line.

Minnifield intercepted the ball 33 yards downfield, just outside the numbers.
It was just a poorly thrown ball by the QB.
The ball needed to be at most 3 yards from the sideline (instead of 7 yards as it was.)

Minnifield was in phase with Hill; it would have been interesting with a good pass here.

...

Side Note:

Minnifield looked pretty good (nice deep backpedal), smooth turns.
Good awareness in both run support and coverage.
But it's only a game (I've seen some the previous year - I've had him on my radar ever since.)

Mr teX
03-06-2012, 07:35 PM
Week 7 vs Va

Tech was only 2-8 for 24 yards and 2 Ints in the passing game.

Hill had one run for 24.
He did not have a catch.

...

First qtr

(1st and 20) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S. (McLeod,R).

From the right slot, Hill ran a quick slant.
He lined up just outside the right hashmarks, went up 5 yards and started making the cut behind the LB.

The ball was thrown way too late (a few steps after he crossed the hashmarks on the other side - into the teeth of zone coverage with the safety also coming up). The ball needed to be thrown before he crossed the hashmark (in the soft spot of the zone and before the safety had time to come up and the RCB to come over.)

As two guys converged on him hi-low; Hill tried to put one hand out to brace his fall and couldn't hang on to the ball with the other hand. He was falling on top of the safety who momentum caused him to undercut Hill from the back side.
The official book did not call a drop ball here, but a fan can always do that.

In the NFL, they don't allow a hi-lo tackle combo like that.
I don't think one guy can undercut a receiver while the other hit him high.
....

Same series

(3rd and 12) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

Against press coverage, Hill fought off the LCB's jam to get outside release and was heading down the side line when the QB got hit just as he threw the ball ; ball had no chance to reach the target - can't see how much room Hill had over the CB.

the bolded only applies to defensive lineman in the trenches where room is limited. If a DL-man is actively engaged with an o-lineman up high, no other OL-man can intentionally hit said DL-man low at the same time; this prevents guys from getting rolled up on or getting their knees torn up.

It still happens on occasion accidentally (allegedly) but there is a rule in place to prevent it from becoming part of strategy.

everyone else out in the field where space is plentiful are fair game however.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:42 PM
Week 8 vs Miami

Tech's pair of QBs were 7-14 for 77 yards and 1 INT
Hill caught a lone pass for 9 yards.
He was paid attention to enough as the Canes double-teamed him from time to time.

...
(2nd and 7) Jones, R. rush for 34 yards to the UM43 (Nicolas, J.), PENALTY GT personal foul off-setting, PENALTY UM personal foul off-setting, NO PLAY.

On this play, Hill lined up tight in the slot; he put on a seal block on a LB (#52) and kept him engaged for a long time, giving the RB plenty of room on the outside.

...

Side note:
I'm including some observations on WR Streeter (Miami) here as well.
I will put these notes in Italic.

(2nd and 10) Harris, J. pass complete to Streeter, T. for 48 yards to the GT31, 1ST DOWN UM (Watts, B.).

Streeter found the open space in a 3-3 zone (5-man blitz) and show fluidity in movement and a good second burst after the cut.
He ran a good square-in route with good stemming, and stuck/planted his left foot nicely before making the sharp cut to the inside.

...

(2nd and 9) Washington, T. pass complete to Peeples, E. for 16 yards to the GT25, 1ST DOWN GT (McGee, B.).

On the other side, Hill ran a hook route from the left slot and sat in the zone (about 13 yards from the LOS), after getting passed-off by the LB, and was wide-open.

...

....
(3rd and 5) Washington, T. pass complete to Smith, O. for 9 yards to the GT39, 1ST DOWN GT (Robinson, M.).

Hill took the double-team deep, allowing an easy swing pass to the RB in the flat.

...

(3rd and 4) Smith, O. rush for 8 yards to the UM1, 1ST DOWN GT (Armstrong, R.).

Hill went downfield and neutralized the safety Telemaque (6'2-207) completely
deep into the end zone.

The run gave Tech first and goal to go at the one.

...

(1st and 10) Harris, J. pass complete to Streeter, T. for 32 yards to the GT14, 1ST DOWN UM (Reid, R.).

Poor coverage allowed Streeter to be wide-open up the middle from the inside left slot..
The pass was a little late; Streeter was waiting and waiting; he had just enough time to catch the ball, turned around, and braced himself for the hit from the safety.
Good job protecting himself and the ball.

...


(1st and 10) Harris, J. pass incomplete to Streeter, T. (Johnson, I.).

Streeter ran a decent post-corner route in the red zone (14-yd line); he could have done better in the foot sticking/planting part before the break to keep the safety a little further away.

The pass was pretty late and off-target (way short), allowing the safety to recover and deflected the pass near the side line.

On his part, Streeter probably should have come back to the ball a little stronger to make sure the safety doesn't have a chance to intercept the ball.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:45 PM
Second Half

(3rd and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Smith, O. for 17 yards to the GT47, 1ST DOWN GT, out-of-bounds.

You can see that on certain plays, Miami either double-teamed Hill straight out of the chute (as in the one mentioned in the first half); or they played in quarter as in this play. They wouldn't let Hill burn them deep.

...

(4th and 3) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Sylvester, S..

The slot receiver was wide-open, but the QB just underthrew the ball (nothing is new here.)

On this play, Hill had more than a step on the RCB in a one-on-one situation deep along the side line (nothing fancy here - just speed).

Either the QB liked the wide-open look of his slot receiver too much, or he just didn't believe in his ability to throw the deep out all that much.

....

(1st and 10) GEORGIA TECH drive start at 07:10.
(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 9 yards to the GT23 (Telemaque, V.).

Simple catch on a swing pass from the right slot.
Shows a good cut to avoid the RCB (who had beaten the wide-out's block) to gain the yardage near the side line.

....


(2nd and 12) Harris, J. pass complete to Streeter, T. for 16 yards to the GT17, 1ST DOWN UM (Thomas, J.)

Streeter found the open space in the 42 zone; standard catch, nothing to it.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:48 PM
4th Qtr

(2nd and 15) Harris, J. pass incomplete to Streeter, T..

QB threw the ball away due to pressure.
Can't see clearly how Streeter ran the streak route on the right side line, but it looked like he had a decent-to-good stem.
....

(1st and 10) GEORGIA TECH drive start at 13:55.
(1st and 10) Days, S. pass incomplete to Hill, S. (Williams, M.).

Can't see how Hill ran the sreak route either.
LCB was in phase with Hill and had inside position.
QB's throw was a little short and to the inside, the CB was able to tip the ball away.

I don't undertand the reason behind Tech having their wide-outs lining up between the numbers and the side line'; sometimes much closer to the side line than the numbers like this instance - Hill was about 3 yards from the side line.

Can't see the stem, but it looked like Hill needed to give the QB a little more room on the sideline if possible. It wasn't too bad as he still had some 2-3 yards to work with, but it doesn't help the QB greatly.

If Hill didn't have a good stem here, I can see the criticsim for "poor" route running, but like I said, the camera cut off the middle portion of the route, it was impossible to tell how he ran the route.

I don't think any of the critics had the coaches' tapes so they couldn't have seen these type of routes either, unless they were at the game in person.
....


(2nd and 10) Days, S. pass complete to Melton, T. for 14 yards to the GT28, 1ST DOWN GT (Telemaque, V.).

Hill was double-teamed at the start of the route with the LCB playing way off the LOS while the safety came up to play underneath, guarding the passing lane.
....

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:49 PM
(3rd and 8) Harris, J. rush for loss of 3 yards to the GT22.
03:03

(4th and 11) Harris, J. pass incomplete to Streeter, T..

Streeter lined up just outside the left numbers and ran a decent fade route (about 25 yards, close to where the normal fade is usually ran.)

He had a decent stem inside, but also could have done a little better (a little more accentuation on the stem). He didn't press the CB hard enough, perhaps he should plant his foot harder to get a little better seperation.

The QB threw the ball at about 27-28 yards.
So one guy (the receiver) maybe was expecting a back shoulder fade while the QB threw the ball in the fade forward fashion.

It's close enough to be undecided as to who was at fault or it could be just a miscommunication. This is an area where I must confess only a real scout can give a true account.

76Texan
03-06-2012, 07:52 PM
(2nd and 16) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S. (Robinson, M.).

On 2nd and 16, with the LCB played 13 yards off the line, Hill ran a simple hook route (looks like the plan was to get back into 3rd and manageable situation). The ball was deflected at the LOS, however.

....


(3rd and 16) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S., PENALTY GT holding declined.

First time I've seen Hill ran a post-corner route, and he did a good job stemming (to hold the two-deep safety inside) and get open near the side line, for a possible 26-28 yd catch.

The QB was pressured and had to throw the ball away.
There was a holding call anyway.

But Hill did run a good route there.

...

This was week 8, and I still don't see where the criticism of Hill can hold (there's still 5 more games to go though).

Unless somebody was at the game and was able to witness first-hand (so they can combine their personal view with rewatching the game); otherwise, the current rating on Hill still stands for me.

Rey
03-06-2012, 07:54 PM
I just watched a some clips of Stephen Hill and I am impressed. The does like to catch with his body, but he has shown excellent ability to catch with his hands too. He is a physical specimen (which is something I love). He will need to work on the nuances of football though and I have no idea how fast he will be able to grasp the Texans playbook and reads...But the guy does not suck.

Personally, I prefer Tommy Streeter out of Miami...I think he's more natural receiver than Hill and he is more of a hands catcher...He often goes to get the ball instead of letting it come to him...

But Streeter likely won't go in the first round and should be there in the second....

But if we took Hill in the first or second I wouldn't complain...

76Texan
03-06-2012, 08:21 PM
the bolded only applies to defensive lineman in the trenches where room is limited. If a DL-man is actively engaged with an o-lineman up high, no other OL-man can intentionally hit said DL-man low at the same time; this prevents guys from getting rolled up on or getting their knees torn up.

It still happens on occasion accidentally (allegedly) but there is a rule in place to prevent it from becoming part of strategy.

everyone else out in the field where space is plentiful are fair game however.

Chop Blocks/Tripping: In most circumstances, players are not allowed to tackle below the knees. A chop block occurs when two players tackle an opponent, with one going high and the other hitting low. Tripping can be called when a player on the ground reaches out with his feet or hands to bring down an opponent who does not have posession of the ball.

http://www.life123.com/sports/football/nfl/nfl-rulebook.shtml

I think it's dangerous, especially when a defender undercuts from behind.
Not good for your ankle.

Mr teX
03-06-2012, 08:42 PM
Chop Blocks/Tripping: In most circumstances, players are not allowed to tackle below the knees. A chop block occurs when two players tackle an opponent, with one going high and the other hitting low. Tripping can be called when a player on the ground reaches out with his feet or hands to bring down an opponent who does not have posession of the ball.

http://www.life123.com/sports/football/nfl/nfl-rulebook.shtml

I think it's dangerous, especially when a defender undercuts from behind.
Not good for your ankle.

yeah, thats the same rule im refering to...the just never call it on players out in the spacious areas of the fields b/c it happens all the time out there. It's mainly called in and around the LOS.

76Texan
03-07-2012, 12:52 AM
yeah, thats the same rule im refering to...the just never call it on players out in the spacious areas of the fields b/c it happens all the time out there. It's mainly called in and around the LOS.

OK, I just thought I pointed that out.
It's just bad QBacking to lead your receiver into such danger, that is all.
That was how the receiver from Stanford miss several games (too many concussions).

76Texan
03-07-2012, 12:59 AM
Week 9 vs Clemson

Tech threw only 9 times;
Hill caught a hightlight reel pass for 44 and dropped a "not-so-easy-to-catch" pass.
Hill was open a few times (at least 2 TDs, unless he drops the ball, LOL!)

And He was great in run blocking as usual.
...


2nd Qtr

(2nd and 5) Washington, T. rush for 46 yards to the CU25, 1ST DOWN GT (WILLARD).

Good block by Hill, neutralizing the LCB, giving the QB room along the side line on the long run.
....


(3rd and 0) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S.

On third and goal at the 6, Hill lined up outside the right numbers.
He ran some kind of a go route or fade route toward the corner (can't see the middle of the route from the TV angle).
QB was pressured and threw the ball out of bound.

Near the end of the play, TV shows that Hill had blocked out the LCB and had plenty of room near the side line (in the end zone), a good 4-5 yards at least.
With a tall receiver like Hill, that should be pitch and catch.

.....

(1st and 10) GEORGIA TECH drive start at 10:03.
(1st and 10) Sims, D. rush for 9 yards to the GT29 (CHRISTIAN;HAWKINS).

(2nd and 1) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

On a 45-yd vertical route (most likely the top-end of this QB's arm strength), Hill dropped a very catchable pass (but not the easiest pass to catch).

It looks like Hill was running a go route (outside release).
The CB was a step behind, but had inside position (obscuring the ball somewhat.)

A good pass should have been thrown to the outside or a yard or two deeper.
Hill was close to the numbers; he had at least 7-8 yards on the side line.

If Hill was to run a skinny post, then he would deserve a pure drop; however, as he was running a streak route, it's not all that simple for me to crucify him.
It's still a drop, but it's not a "terrible" drop.

Similar to the other drop, the approach angle to the ball is not optimum.
As I understand it, you'd like the receiver's shoulder to be as parallel to the LOS as possible, not to the side line.

Hill's speed is too fast for this QB, but (knowing his teammate) he needs to learn to adjust to the ball. Perhaps, he can do what Galloway did in the Skins game back in 2010 to put himself in a better situation to catch the ball.

The QB is not going to throw a perfect pass every time.
Hill could have encroach toward the inside a little more (as the DB never turned his head) to get a PI call when the DB runs into him.

LOL, I don't know, could be too much of my own narrative here, so let's just call this a drop.

At any rate, from what I saw, it looks more like technique rather than bad hands.
"Bad hands" is when a receiver is in good position and drops the ball.
I've seen Blackmon and Wright drop much easier catch than that.
...


(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 44 yards to the CU10, 1ST DOWN GT.

Make-up time for Hill.

In another inverted cover two situation, Hill ran a post route from outside the numbers.
The LCB knew that it was lost and tried to pull on Hill's shoulder (it makes no difference).

Hill shook it off, laid out to grab the ball with one hand, pulled it into the other hand so that he can brace his landing as to prevent a face palm (maintain control of the ball throughout the catch).

The highlight reel can be found here:

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=313020059

(While you're there, watch the long TD catch by the Tigers' FR receiver Watkins.
He looked really, really good.)
...

76Texan
03-07-2012, 01:01 AM
3rd qtr

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 3 yards to the GT26 (BREELAND;CHRISTIAN).

Swing pass; Hill did a pretty good job moving the CB back, but he reacted back well and made a good tackle, hanging on to Hill until the LB came to help.
...


(3rd and 6) Washington, T. rush for 56 yards to the CU17, 1ST DOWN GT (WILLARD).

Nice route and blocking by Hill again.

He stemmed inside then planted his foot for the cut to the outside nicely, forcing the LCB to turn and run with him.

He then did enough to occupy the defender downfield for the QB to go down the side line for an extra 25 some yards before the rest of the defense can catch up.
...


(1st and 10) Jones, R. rush for 9 yards to the CU2 (HALL).


A clear-out type of block for Hill.
He pushed the LCB almost out of the end zone.
...


(2nd and 0) PENALTY GT delay of game (Washington, T.) 4 yards to the CU5.
(2nd and 0) Smith, O. rush for 4 yards to the CU1 (HALL;BREELAND).

After Tech committed a delay of game penalty, Hill put on another devastating block on the RCB (a different one from the previous play) on yet another running play.

This guy is a very good blocking receiver already.

76Texan
03-07-2012, 01:04 AM
4th qtr

(1st and 10) GEORGIA TECH drive start at 10:51.

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass intercepted by HALL at the GT35, HALL return 26 yards to the GT9 (Washington, T.).

Hill was all alone down the side line as both the CB and the safety somehow came down to play the run.

The QB picked the wrong receiver to throw to; his pass to the slot receiver was intercepted by the off-side safety.

The on-side safety tried to recover, but as we all know, speed kills.
You can't hardly afford a mistake against speed.
...

Side note:

Clemson's true freshman WR Watkins made a big mistake cutting off his route causing his QB to throw an INT; other than that, this guy looks like a highly possible 1st rounder in the future. I'm thinking he'll come out early.

Aside from that route, Watkins ran several great routes, with good stems, good planting and good sharp break out of the cut. And he attacks the ball, snatching it out of the air. Looks like a young Fitzgerald to me.

thunderkyss
03-07-2012, 09:02 AM
I just watched a some clips of Stephen Hill and I am impressed. The does like to catch with his body, but he has shown excellent ability to catch with his hands too. He is a physical specimen (which is something I love).



This is what I saw. He looks to have good hands to me. But, has a tendency to try to catch with his body.

At the combine, they had a couple of WRs & scouts talking about all the players & pointing out some technique things. Keeping your elbows in, locating the ball early... several things that could help receivers improve their catching skills.

When I look at Hill, I see things that proper coaching can fix. I don't know if we have proper coaching at the WR position.

But like you said, he is an elite athlete, there is no question about that. Can he become an elite WR? that is the chance that someone will take if they draft him in the first or second rounds.

I'm not saying the Texans should take him, like you though, I wouldn't be upset in the slightest if they did.

steelbtexan
03-07-2012, 09:26 AM
The reason I like Randle more than Hill has to do with the last time the Texans drafted an unpolished WR (JJ) = Fail. I know it's it's not fair.

Hill has unreal talent and D.Thomas is now vouching for Hill saying Hill is going to be the next great WR. This is making me reconsider my position on Hill.

beerlover
03-07-2012, 09:39 AM
The reason I like Randle more than Hill has to do with the last time the Texans drafted an unpolished WR (JJ) = Fail. I know it's it's not fair.

Hill has unreal talent and D.Thomas is now vouching for Hill saying Hill is going to be the next great WR. This is making me reconsider my position on Hill.

I like fact your displaying flexibility to change your stance. The aspect of Hill skill set is a rare combination of size & speed. His route tree will expand here, you know the Texans coaching staff will be excited to work with him & his humble demeanor will endear him to his teammates. Specifically, is the type of WR who Andre could groom & help him adjust to NFL.

Hill is the vertical threat Texans need, will keep defenses from compressing the box, most likely pulling both a corner & safety deep.

mussop
03-07-2012, 02:00 PM
This is what I saw. He looks to have good hands to me. But, has a tendency to try to catch with his body.

At the combine, they had a couple of WRs & scouts talking about all the players & pointing out some technique things. Keeping your elbows in, locating the ball early... several things that could help receivers improve their catching skills.

When I look at Hill, I see things that proper coaching can fix. I don't know if we have proper coaching at the WR position.

But like you said, he is an elite athlete, there is no question about that. Can he become an elite WR? that is the chance that someone will take if they draft him in the first or second rounds.

I'm not saying the Texans should take him, like you though, I wouldn't be upset in the slightest if they did.

This! Add to that that he is a good blocker so I can see the texans taking a chance on him. Don't know if that is the route I would go but he brings alot to the table from the Texans POV.

Rey
03-07-2012, 02:05 PM
I like fact your displaying flexibility to change your stance. The aspect of Hill skill set is a rare combination of size & speed. His route tree will expand here, you know the Texans coaching staff will be excited to work with him & his humble demeanor will endear him to his teammates. Specifically, is the type of WR who Andre could groom & help him adjust to NFL.

Hill is the vertical threat Texans need, will keep defenses from compressing the box, most likely pulling both a corner & safety deep.

What is the difference between Hill and Streeter as far as physical attributes?

I don't understand why Streeter isn't getting more attention. '

Texans seem to dip into the canes well almost every draft. I'm sure AJ would love to help Streeter become a solid pro. He's 6'5", runs extremely well, comes in as a really good redzone target already...He's good in the slot..

He's just raw...hasn't had a lot of playing time prior to this past season, but he did really well in his first extensive action. He is a field stretcher and has strong hands to bring the ball down in traffic.

Lets play a game....It's called Hill or Streeter...

Has a very impressive frame and the speed to match, an will be capable of making splash plays for his team as a rookie in the NFL. Late third-round value with the opportunity to ascend.

AnalysisStrengths: has premier tools to immediately stretch the field for an NFL offense. Has an elongated gate and is very comfortable sticking his foot in the ground to go up and get the football. Has really come on strong of late in his ability to separate from defenders in short/intermediate routes.

Weaknesses: needs to develop the technical parts of his game to be able to demand consistent playing time on the outside. He false steps often at the snap and has a below-average burst off the line, and although he uses his length well to avoid press, could have issues once teams start to get in his face at the line of scrimmage. Runs sloppy routes and isn't definitive in his movements.

Hill...Or Streeter....???? (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/tommy-streeter?id=2533539)




has great length and an outstanding catch radius, which along with his speed makes him a serious deep-threat option in the NFL. He has a thin frame and will be hurt by the fact that he ran a very basic route tree.

will be a legitimate deep threat at the next level -- by recording nearly 30 yards per catch, he showed he was capable of going deep and scoring on every play. He consistently runs past corners on deep routes and is impressive at the point of the catch, as he is able to lay out for the ball or rise above his defender.

value is based purely off his ability as a deep threat. Has average quickness and moves off the line of scrimmage to avoid a jam. He ran a very basic route tree in college that didn't allow him to showcase many skills. Outside of catching jump balls, he struggles to read coverages and understand how to find holes in a zone. He looks uncomfortable with the ball in his hands and resembles a lengthy track star on the field instead of a football player



Hill....or Streeter...... (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/stephen-hill?id=2533537)


Most of you probably know who is who, but my point is that Streeter is almost the same guy, but with more of an ability to help right away because of his ability to run and get separation on short and intermediate routes as well as his ability to take the top off the defense.

Lucky
03-07-2012, 09:52 PM
What is the difference between Hill and Streeter as far as physical attributes?
From watching the two, Hill just seems like the stronger athlete. He seems to break more tackles and keep his feet under him.

76Texan
03-07-2012, 10:38 PM
NFLDraftScout.com
Stephen Hill caught 12 of 12 passes, running routes crisply and apparently answering questions about his route running. This from NFL Network draft expert Mike Mayock, who was on hand: "I think he's just kind of overwhelming from a height-weight-speed-upside perspective. I think he runs too well and catches too well to get out of the first round, in my opinion."
........

NFLDraftScout.com

Wide receiver Stephen Hill wanted to leave a specific impression with the NFL coaches who flocked to Georgia Tech's pro day. "I just want to show them, because those are the guys who will be drafting me, that I can do great things other than just running deep routes," said the 6-4, 215-pounder, one of the stars of the NFL Combine, where he posted an unofficial 4.36 time in the 40-yard dash. Mission accomplished. With two head coaches -- Atlanta's Mike Smith and Lovie Smith of the Bears -- and most NFL teams in attendance, Hill did his part to continue nudging his draft stock upward. Running a variety of short and intermediate routes, Hill got in and out of his breaks fast and caught all 12 passes, including a fingertip-grab off the turf, form quarterback Eric Ward in Tuesday's workout. Vikings wide receiver coach George Stewart ran the receiver drills and ordered Hill through the route tree.
...

Matt Barrows, The Sacramento Bee

There were 31 teams on hand to watch ascending wide receiver Stephen Hill run routes and catch passes today at Georgia Tech's pro day. The one absence, according to two people who attended? The San Francisco 49ers. Hill is the receiver who turned heads a couple of weeks ago at the scouting combine where, at 6-4, 215 pounds, he ran his 40-yard dash in less than 4.4 seconds and then looked fluid in his pass-catching drills. He understandingly opted to rest on his combine numbers today - which is perhaps why the 49ers didn't attend - and instead ran routes and caught passes. NFL Network's Mike Mayock reported that Hill caught 28 of the 33 balls that went his way. Don't be fooled by the 49ers' absence. He was one of the players they interviewed at the scouting combine, and they appear to be in a good position to take him in the draft.

beerlover
03-07-2012, 10:52 PM
What is the difference between Hill and Streeter as far as physical attributes?

I don't understand why Streeter isn't getting more attention. '

Texans seem to dip into the canes well almost every draft. I'm sure AJ would love to help Streeter become a solid pro. He's 6'5", runs extremely well, comes in as a really good redzone target already...He's good in the slot..

He's just raw...hasn't had a lot of playing time prior to this past season, but he did really well in his first extensive action. He is a field stretcher and has strong hands to bring the ball down.

Not sure Streeter is coachable that is difference #1. #2 Streeter has not been coached up or had similar role model?#3 he quits early on plays, doesn't play through the whistle. #4 doesn't have good hands or technique is poor? I could go on but Hill has a good shot making instant impact, rather than Jacoby time line as a developmental prospect. That is the difference between a late first & third round WR.

76Texan
03-08-2012, 01:21 AM
I've yet to study Streeter much.
Just three games: Ohio St (wk 3), Ks St (wk 4), and Ga Tech.

He didn't get his first start until week 4

Supposedly the Canes had a guy who's faster and a guy who's more explosive (Benjamin and Hurns).
Benjamin is a Sr; I think he also ran 4.36 at the combine, same as Hill; is that right?
Any thought on him?

Hurns is a true Soph; Streeter is a Rs Jr (so basically, Streeter had 2 years on Hurns.
Both Hurns and Streeter ended up with 7 starts. Benjamin had 9.

Should there be a concern with Streeter not being to start over Hurns early in the year?

In the 2 games that I watched so far, Streeter looked to be a possession receiver, running short route most of the time.
There were things to like and there were things not to like.

His routes didn't look as sharp as in the Ga Tech game.
He didn't attack the ball as much either.
Other than that, I like his hands and he can find the open space often, except when his routes weren't sharp.

I have yet to come to a conclusion on him yet; too early for me.

mussop
03-08-2012, 08:12 AM
Not sure Streeter is coachable that is difference #1. #2 Streeter has not been coached up or had similar role model?#3 he quits early on plays, doesn't play through the whistle. #4 doesn't have good hands or technique is poor? I could go on but Hill has a good shot making instant impact, rather than Jacoby time line as a developmental prospect. That is the difference between a late first & third round WR.

#1 what makes you say this?
#2 Hill has been coached up?
#3 surely you have some examples of this!
#4 hasn't the same thing been said about Hill?
What makes you think Hill will make an immediate impact? What in his college career did he acomplish that makes you think he is further along than JJ was at the same point?

Playoffs
03-08-2012, 08:56 AM
Streeter got a big red flag from me at the combine. Drops everywhere, but worse was a bad attitude & body language. I wouldn't touch him.

76Texan
03-08-2012, 10:20 AM
Streeter got a big red flag from me at the combine. Drops everywhere, but worse was a bad attitude & body language. I wouldn't touch him.

I didn't watch him at the combine.
What kind of bad attitude & body language that he gave off?

I have yet to see him dropping any ball in those 3 games (he might in other games though). He just didn't help out the QB enough (sometimes he waits for the ball to arrive instead of attacking it - allowing the DB to close the gap.)

I just wonder why the QB Harris hadn't been connected with him much until this year. They played together in highschool, so what happened to the rapport?
Streeter caught 5 passes in his Rs Fr season, but only 1 in his Rs Soph season - he didn't play in the first four games of that season. Was he injured or was there another reason?

leebigeztx
03-08-2012, 12:45 PM
I think if you work him in as a 1 trick pony at first, he will be ok. The problem is with college wrs are the conversions routes. People think most of the drops are bad hands and they're not. Say the play calls for the wr to run a 12 yard incut, but as you're running, you notice the cb bails out to give the look of cover 3.The wr accelerate, but he notices the lb like urlacher reading running in the middle. Covenrtional wisdom says break that to an out route or a hook. All of this is done withing 5 steps. Suddenly the qb throws the ball while you're converting and you drop it because it got on you too fast. Thats why guys drop passes. They're trying to read coverage and get where theyre trying to get to. Now the steelers only run wallace on a couple of routes and none of which he is converting routes. Thats why he has the production he has.

Naiirb
03-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Uh oh Bears could become players at #19 for Stephen Hill

https://twitter.com/#!/walterfootball/status/177895028256014336

"Brad Biggs of the Chicago Tribune says that Lovie Smith had lunch with #GT WR Stephen Hill after his Pro Day."

Lucky
03-08-2012, 05:59 PM
Uh oh Bears could become players at #19 for Stephen Hill

https://twitter.com/#!/walterfootball/status/177895028256014336 (https://twitter.com/#%21/walterfootball/status/177895028256014336)

"Brad Biggs of the Chicago Tribune says that Lovie Smith had lunch with #GT WR Stephen Hill after his Pro Day."
Could be they think Floyd will be off the board @ #19. Or they took Floyd off their board due to character concerns.

TimeKiller
03-08-2012, 06:30 PM
Wouldn't it be ridiculous if they took Hill 1 and Streeter 2? Just saying.

bah007
03-08-2012, 07:36 PM
Could be they think Floyd will be off the board @ #19. Or they took Floyd off their board due to character concerns.

I think Floyd is pretty much a top 15 lock. I doubt he gets past #13.

steelbtexan
03-08-2012, 07:39 PM
Uh oh Bears could become players at #19 for Stephen Hill

https://twitter.com/#!/walterfootball/status/177895028256014336

"Brad Biggs of the Chicago Tribune says that Lovie Smith had lunch with #GT WR Stephen Hill after his Pro Day."

Yep,

I thought there was a good chance of Hill going to the Bears at 19 if Floyd is off the board. Cutler asked for a bigger WR. I could see the Bears drafting Hill at 19 and Streeter in the 3rd.

Give me Marvin Jones in the 2nd and Streeter in the 3rd. Unless Randle is there in the 2nd. I know Gary talked to Jones at the Sr Bowl.

Wolf6151
03-08-2012, 08:00 PM
Wouldn't it be ridiculous if they took Hill 1 and Streeter 2? Just saying.

I've thought about that as well. It sure would solidify us at WR for years to come.

TimeKiller
03-09-2012, 07:41 AM
I've thought about that as well. It sure would solidify us at WR for years to come.

IDk, kinda seems like 2 huge gambles to me. But what if you ended up with double Randy Moss?!?

Also, it wouldn't fit our offense at all. Throwing deep is a....um....not so much....

Rey
03-09-2012, 11:03 AM
From watching the two, Hill just seems like the stronger athlete. He seems to break more tackles and keep his feet under him.

I can dig it...

Hill is probably the overall stronger athlete even though Streeter did more reps on the BP...

Hill probably has more core strength and more lower body strength...

Rey
03-09-2012, 11:10 AM
IDk, kinda seems like 2 huge gambles to me. But what if you ended up with double Randy Moss?!?

Also, it wouldn't fit our offense at all. Throwing deep is a....um....not so much....

Streeter is more than a deep threat...

In fact, he is very good operating out of the slot on short and intermediate routes...He's also really good in the redzone and in short yardage...

That is the main reason I want the Texans to consider him.

His ability to take the top off the defense is an added bonus as far as I'm concerned with him.

76Texan
03-09-2012, 01:11 PM
Streeter is more than a deep threat...

In fact, he is very good operating out of the slot on short and intermediate routes...He's also really good in the redzone and in short yardage...

That is the main reason I want the Texans to consider him.

His ability to take the top off the defense is an added bonus as far as I'm concerned with him.

Streeter got better as the season went along.
His route running was still inconsistent (that can be fixed with time - I hope).
When he's on it, the route was sharp, and he looked good in and out of the break.
As he became starter, he saw more playing time, and ran more vertical routes.
He looks like a natural hand catcher (but he did drop an easy pass that I can remember).
His length is obviously his strength; he just needs to continue to work on being more aggressive attacking the ball.

Both are quick for their size, but Hill seems to be a little more fluid and "elusive".
On a few occasions, Streeter demonstrated the ability to absorb a hit while still hold on to the ball.

Streeter looks like a second rounder, but with his upside, he just might sneak into the first round (???)

Both of these guys have the potential to become a number 1.
I'm not sure about Randle or Wright.

Playoffs
03-10-2012, 03:03 PM
I didn't watch him at the combine.
What kind of bad attitude & body language that he gave off?Deer in the headlights, dropped almost everything, body language --- something I feel/see, not measurable/quantifiable.

OT: Lower round QB getting some buzz -- have you done any work on Lindley?

76Texan
03-10-2012, 06:53 PM
Deer in the headlights, dropped almost everything, body language --- something I feel/see, not measurable/quantifiable.

?

I see what you mean.
He dropped a cooule of passes as seen in the video to follow.
These are instances where he didn't attack the ball as I'd mentioned.

http://www.procanes.com/files/ce72a88991531d99026da7218ef8cb73-11264.html

Probably wasn't comfortable with the surrounding, maybe?
Or he could be focusing on running routes and drop the ball?
It does make one question the mental part of his game; the fact that he didn't win a starting job out of spring ball lurking in the back of one's mind.
The things Michael Irving said...

I wonder how much a regional scout was able to see during spring practices.
Are they allowed at team practices? How much can they see during pre-game warm-up, etc.

I think Miami had their pro-day yesterday or today. Any news on how and what he did?

I imagine a second or third round grade maybe more appropriate for him?

76Texan
03-10-2012, 07:10 PM
OT: Lower round QB getting some buzz -- have you done any work on Lindley?

Don't know if I ever get to him.

Been scrutinizing Kirk Cousins and his receiver B.J. Cunningham.

After watching Cousins against Ohio St., ND, Michigan, Wisconsin, and a couple of lesser opponents, I was ready to write off Cousins.
He made too many mistakes (too many WTF moments) for a 5th year senior to think he can ever be a legit NFL starter.

But I decided to watch some more to be sure.
Against Nebraska, he looked like Gabbert against the Texans.
Well, he was actually worse.
He only had one INT for the game, but really, the Cornhuskers could have had 5 or 6.

This is another case of a QB who can be quite good without pressure.
From what I saw, it will take a lot of work for Cousins to evern become a legit NFL starter.

Cunningham, on the other hand, looks like a decent possibility for a number 2.
I think I'll watch some more of him later.

I might switch to a different tandem: A&M, AZ, AZ St.?

I've watched Lindley some the year before, but not this year.
What's your opinion on him?

Playoffs
03-10-2012, 07:42 PM
I think Miami had their pro-day yesterday or today. Any news on how and what he did?Oddly, no. He & the RB didn't run, just drills. Appears Miami had a couple of troubled WRs that ran well, looked good.

76Texan
03-10-2012, 08:46 PM
Oddly, no. He & the RB didn't run, just drills. Appears Miami had a couple of troubled WRs that ran well, looked good.

His combine number is good enough, he didn't have to run.
I would have like to find out how he ran the drills.

I found some links showing that Streeter didn't see much playing time until this past year due to drop passes, and poor work habit (by his own admission):

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/hurricanes/receiver-tommy-streeter-impresses-in-miami-hurricanes-second-1388827.html

http://www.footballscoop.com/news/3443-miami-fl-coaches-not-interested-in-seeing-67-dropped-passes

The guy who got the most starts last year was Benjamin who ran a 4.36 at the combine. He also has value as a return specialist. But he's small and doesn't play big. He was used mostly on the side line. What I like about him is that he's smart. When the QB starts to scramble, he will adjust his route. He did help out Jacoby Harris often. He knows how to work the DB to gain advantage here and there. If we can combine Benjamin and Kendall Wright, we would have a hell of a player.

Lucky
03-11-2012, 09:35 AM
The guy who got the most starts last year was Benjamin who ran a 4.36 at the combine. He also has value as a return specialist. But he's small and doesn't play big.
The Texans need a returner (assuming Jacoby is gone). I just don't think Marciano is going to be able to talk Kubiak into another short return specialist, after the Holliday experiment. I like Chris Rainey's versitility, but I just don't see Kubiak going for him, either.

beerlover
03-11-2012, 09:51 AM
The Texans need a returner (assuming Jacoby is gone). I just don't think Marciano is going to be able to talk Kubiak into another short return specialist, after the Holliday experiment. I like Chris Rainey's versitility, but I just don't see Kubiak going for him, either.

Hill has kick return experience & ability. Jacoby will be on a short leash yet remain Texan primary punt returner. Least that's how I see Kubiak playing his cards should they select Hill.

76Texan
03-11-2012, 11:29 AM
The Texans need a returner (assuming Jacoby is gone). I just don't think Marciano is going to be able to talk Kubiak into another short return specialist, after the Holliday experiment. I like Chris Rainey's versitility, but I just don't see Kubiak going for him, either.

What T. Benjamin has that Hollday didn't is the receiving and route running skills.
Benjamin (not Streeter) was the "go to" guy for Jacory Harris.

While it's true that his game is finess. He's only some 172 lbs, but he's over 5-9.
His vertical is 38" and his broad jump is nearly 10".

I'm concerned about his lack of phisicality, but I think somebody will draft him on the third day. I've seen people slot him on the second day.

Not that I'm promoting the Texans to draft him, it's just that I see him as one op the options in the late rounds.

thunderkyss
03-11-2012, 12:04 PM
Hill has kick return experience & ability. Jacoby will be on a short leash yet remain Texan primary punt returner. Least that's how I see Kubiak playing his cards should they select Hill.

I like to think Kubiak is more practical than that. Throughout OTAs & training camp, I'm sure they (Kubiak & Marciano) are going to be looking at everyone. If there is a better option at punt returns, I wouldn't see it past them to start the guy.

I like Jacoby, I've never hid that. Jacoby may have been one of he better punt returners of 2011, but there is still plenty of opportunity for improvement in that phase of the game. If you're not getting better, you're getting worse.

aussie_texan
03-11-2012, 09:54 PM
theres manning and keo on the roster atm the could return kick offs and punts

Playoffs
04-16-2012, 06:57 PM
Lengthy, but fantastic 3-part read by Matt Waldman - well worth the effort:

WRs Stephen Hill and Marvin Jones: Managing Physical Play (Short) (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/27/wrs-stephen-hill-and-marvin-jones-managing-physical-play-short/)

Georgia Tech wide receiver Stephen Hill is tall, fast, and has a frame that will likely support another 10-15 pounds of muscle without sacrificing his 4.36-40 speed. Cal wide receiver Marvin Jones is a shade under 6í2″ and 200 pounds and he appears to have the type of physique that wouldnít add weight if he injected liquified Crisco with an IV. Yet if I were building a team from scratch and you asked me which receiver Iíd rather have catching passes from my quarterback, at this moment Iíd take Jones despite the fact Hillís physical skills are uncommon...

WRs Stephen Hill and Marvin Jones: Going Deep (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/29/wrs-stephen-hill-and-marvin-jones-going-deep/)

This week I have been spotlighting the craft of playing receiver and using plays from the careers of Georgia Techís Stephen Hill and Calís Marvin Jones as examples. Yesterday, I profiled two crossing routes that couldnít have been run more different from each other. Today, Iím going deep and examining a vertical play from both receivers...

Vertical Goodness: Stephen Hill (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/03/01/vertical-goodness-stephen-hill/)

Iíve been critical of the Georgia Tech receiver all week, but Iíve also been saying that the star of the Combine is more than just a gold medal winner 2012′s Underwear Olympics at Lucas Oil Stadium. Hill is a legit prospect with NFL starter upside. Although Iíve spent several pages analyzing what Hill doesnít do, one play can encompass most of his strengths. On the surface, one good play to several not so good ones might seem heavily weighted to the negative. However, there are certain talents that donít require lengthy analysis to value...

kiwitexansfan
04-16-2012, 07:30 PM
Looking forward to reading those articles.

I am beginning to find myself in the Stephen Hill @ 26 2012 camp.

Just think that with basically a solid team looking for that little bit extra, rolling the dice on a what-if might be the ticket.

steelbtexan
04-16-2012, 07:54 PM
Looking forward to reading those articles.

I am beginning to find myself in the Stephen Hill @ 26 2012 camp.

Just think that with basically a solid team looking for that little bit extra, rolling the dice on a what-if might be the ticket.

This is why I've changed my mind and want Hill over Randle.

The Texans are at a point that picking Hill is worth the gamble. I'm begining to dubt that Hill will be there at 26.

El Tejano
04-17-2012, 09:28 AM
For me, when it comes to drafting a WR, I wanna know if the guy can come in and be the #1 receiver should the unthinkable ever happen to the guy we already love playing WR for this team (I will not say his name for the sake of preventing it from happening).

Sometimes I just don't think Hill can be that dude. I think he would be a perfect compliment reciever but not the main guy. Kind of like Alvin Harper was with Michael Irvin. Harper was awesome at Dallas but when he went to Tampa Bay and the focus was on him, he was horrible.

Playoffs
04-17-2012, 10:07 AM
Looking forward to reading those articles.

I am beginning to find myself in the Stephen Hill @ 26 2012 camp.Read the articles, you might question Hill and reconsider Marvin Jones. The photo-diagrams really help.

76Texan
04-17-2012, 02:28 PM
Read the articles, you might question Hill and reconsider Marvin Jones. The photo-diagrams really help.

PO, the guy was just over-analyzing Hill, using tapes that is over a year and a half old.

When you watch guys from that time frame, I think it's best to look for what he did do well.

Now if he didn't show hardly any improvement in his Senior year, the analyt would have a case.
From what I saw, he doesn't have a case.

There are videos out there at the combine and his pro day.
You can watch his route running, which was already better as the season went along.

I doubt that Hill will last past the first round.

Wolf6151
04-17-2012, 02:31 PM
Lengthy, but fantastic 3-part read by Matt Waldman - well worth the effort:

WRs Stephen Hill and Marvin Jones: Managing Physical Play (Short) (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/27/wrs-stephen-hill-and-marvin-jones-managing-physical-play-short/)

Georgia Tech wide receiver Stephen Hill is tall, fast, and has a frame that will likely support another 10-15 pounds of muscle without sacrificing his 4.36-40 speed. Cal wide receiver Marvin Jones is a shade under 6í2″ and 200 pounds and he appears to have the type of physique that wouldnít add weight if he injected liquified Crisco with an IV. Yet if I were building a team from scratch and you asked me which receiver Iíd rather have catching passes from my quarterback, at this moment Iíd take Jones despite the fact Hillís physical skills are uncommon...

WRs Stephen Hill and Marvin Jones: Going Deep (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/29/wrs-stephen-hill-and-marvin-jones-going-deep/)

This week I have been spotlighting the craft of playing receiver and using plays from the careers of Georgia Techís Stephen Hill and Calís Marvin Jones as examples. Yesterday, I profiled two crossing routes that couldnít have been run more different from each other. Today, Iím going deep and examining a vertical play from both receivers...

Vertical Goodness: Stephen Hill (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/03/01/vertical-goodness-stephen-hill/)

Iíve been critical of the Georgia Tech receiver all week, but Iíve also been saying that the star of the Combine is more than just a gold medal winner 2012′s Underwear Olympics at Lucas Oil Stadium. Hill is a legit prospect with NFL starter upside. Although Iíve spent several pages analyzing what Hill doesnít do, one play can encompass most of his strengths. On the surface, one good play to several not so good ones might seem heavily weighted to the negative. However, there are certain talents that donít require lengthy analysis to value...



I was originally all over the Stephen Hill at #26 pick but articles like these make me question that decision as I learn more about Hill's lack of route running skills. We don't need another Jacoby Jones. Hill has the measurables to be a future #1 WR but our staff will have to teach him route running skills, something they've been unable to do with Jacoby in the previous 4 yrs.. I like Marvin Jones alot and he already knows how to run routes. The same can be said for AJ Jenkins.

Rey
04-17-2012, 02:33 PM
I don't see a whole lot wrong with Jacoby's route running...

He's just not a very good receiver overall...

I think he'd make a good WR3 or 4, but he is not consistent enough and doesn't have good enough hands to be a WR2...

76Texan
04-17-2012, 03:57 PM
Lengthy, but fantastic 3-part read by Matt Waldman - well worth the effort:

WRs Stephen Hill and Marvin Jones: Managing Physical Play (Short) (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/27/wrs-stephen-hill-and-marvin-jones-managing-physical-play-short/)

Georgia Tech wide receiver Stephen Hill is tall, fast, and has a frame that will likely support another 10-15 pounds of muscle without sacrificing his 4.36-40 speed. Cal wide receiver Marvin Jones is a shade under 6’2″ and 200 pounds and he appears to have the type of physique that wouldn’t add weight if he injected liquified Crisco with an IV. Yet if I were building a team from scratch and you asked me which receiver I’d rather have catching passes from my quarterback, at this moment I’d take Jones despite the fact Hill’s physical skills are uncommon...





"Hill's route lacks a sharp angle from his break. As you can see he's beginning his turn at the three and giving his opponent the chance to turn is hips early to anticipate the path from the break. The orange line is where Hill should have begun his break."

This is the author "assuming" that Hill was supposed to run a deep in.

It certainly looks to me like he was running short post, going up about 7 yards deep then angling toward the post.

...

Dale Moss caught one running this route in the East-West Shriner game (his only catch, but it wasn't his fault; he wasn't targeted but twice.)

As a complement to that route, Moss also ran a post-corner route.
This one looks like a short post at the beginning, but as the receiver makes his angle cut to the post at seven yards (thereabout), he puts on a double move and cuts back toward the corner. (The QB failed Moss on this play as he put the ball way too long). Moss beat Josh Norman, a CB that might go in round 3-4.

I've been watching Randle since yesterday, and I saw him ran the same post-corner route against Miss. St. for a TD.
Randle wasn't as smooth/sharp in and out of the break as Moss, but the CB was caught peeking into the backfield. (He didn't "really" stick his inside foot into the ground.)

Come to think of it, I found the highlight here:
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312580344

76Texan
04-17-2012, 05:09 PM
Instead of creating a new thread on Randle, I thought I would just add my observation in this one.

In week 3 vs Miss. St. there was an incompletion in which Randle made a cut to the outside around the 15-16 yard mark. The ball was thrown at 27 yards just outside the number. Clearly, there was a mis-communication; I don't know whose fault that was, the QB or the WR.

In week 4 vs. W. Virginia (I'm still watching this game), Randle made a cut to the outside between 6 and 7 yards. This is similar to a play where Hill was criticized for rounding out his outside route. I've said that it is not abosultely necessary for a receiver to make the cut at 5 yards on a quick out; I've seen playbooks that call for the cut at 6 and even 7 yards. Whoever it was that complaint Hill was a poor route runner needs to mark Randle as one just the same.

Later on, Randle dropped an easy pass in the end zone.
Randle made the cut to the inside somewhere between 7 and 10 yards (TV angle wasn't all that good).
The safety stepped up such that Randle was wide open (the CB was concentrating on the outside).
It's unclear whether Randle let the ball too close into his body or what, but the analyst proclaimed that the ball was right on the money.

Insideop
04-18-2012, 09:53 AM
Instead of creating a new thread on Randle, I thought I would just add my observation in this one.

In week 3 vs Miss. St. there was an incompletion in which Randle made a cut to the outside around the 15-16 yard mark. The ball was thrown at 27 yards just outside the number. Clearly, there was a mis-communication; I don't know whose fault that was, the QB or the WR.

In week 4 vs. W. Virginia (I'm still watching this game), Randle made a cut to the outside between 6 and 7 yards. This is similar to a play where Hill was criticized for rounding out his outside route. I've said that it is not abosultely necessary for a receiver to make the cut at 5 yards on a quick out; I've seen playbooks that call for the cut at 6 and even 7 yards. Whoever it was that complaint Hill was a poor route runner needs to mark Randle as one just the same.

Later on, Randle dropped an easy pass in the end zone.
Randle made the cut to the inside somewhere between 7 and 10 yards (TV angle wasn't all that good).
The safety stepped up such that Randle was wide open (the CB was concentrating on the outside).
It's unclear whether Randle let the ball too close into his body or what, but the analyst proclaimed that the ball was right on the money.


These type of comments, and others I've read, are the reason why I'm not sold on any of the WR's at #26, whether it be Hill, Wright, Randle, Jeffreys, or anyone else. I'm just not sold on any of them. They all have questions about their game that could make them a "boom or bust" type player. That's why I'm hoping the Texans go after an OLB in the 1st, like McClellen, or another position, instead of WR. Then pick up a WR in the 2nd or 3rd, like Marvin Jones or Toon, which are a better value IMO.

Maddict5
04-19-2012, 07:28 AM
il be honest- hill is my least favourite of the potential wrs there at 26. if we draft him i wont be giving out & criticising (cos i think ppl who do are stupid) but i wont be very excited. would much rather randle or wright.

Lucky
04-19-2012, 08:27 AM
il be honest- hill is my least favourite of the potential wrs there at 26. if we draft him i wont be giving out & criticising (cos i think ppl who do are stupid) but i wont be very excited. would much rather randle or wright.

I'm pretty much opposite. I don't think Randle and Wright have 1st round talent (especially Wright). Hill has the talent and potential, but may not make much of a contribution this year while he learns the system. I would rather take a WR in the 2nd, and see the Texans develop him. There are some O-linemen that should be available at #26 that could compete on the right side.

76Texan
04-19-2012, 12:33 PM
I'm pretty much opposite. I don't think Randle and Wright have 1st round talent (especially Wright). Hill has the talent and potential, but may not make much of a contribution this year while he learns the system. I would rather take a WR in the 2nd, and see the Texans develop him. There are some O-linemen that should be available at #26 that could compete on the right side.

I agree with everything here except for taking an O-lineman at 26.
It may be best for the Texans to trade out of the first; there seems to be a good bit of values in the next two rounds.

drs23
04-19-2012, 06:55 PM
Solid reasons not to take Hill or Randal @26.

What about Quick if he falls to us in the 2nd?

kiwitexansfan
04-19-2012, 07:05 PM
Solid reasons not to take Hill or Randal @26.

What about Quick if he falls to us in the 2nd?

Small school guy, never played against good competition.

Hype is based on measurables not production.

You can make a case not to take nearly any player if you are looking for it.

Quick might be a slightly more gifted Jacoby Jones.....

drs23
04-19-2012, 08:26 PM
Small school guy, never played against good competition.

Hype is based on measurables not production.

You can make a case not to take nearly any player if you are looking for it.

Quick might be a slightly more gifted Jacoby Jones.....

Really? I've heard the knock on Jacoby, small hands and being a bone head and that's not what I'm hearing about Quick like big hands and having football IQ. Elway says

"The biggest thing is the people they are seeing day to day, game to game, are a lot better," said Broncos' executive vice president of football operations John Elway, a Hall of Fame quarterback who threw more than a few passes toward rookie receivers in his day.
"They're going to see a lot more bump coverage, guys right up on them, and it's hard for us to even find film of guys against bump."
Because if you're a top-tier wide receiver in college, guys like Blackmon or Notre Dame's Michael Floyd or Baylor's Kendall Wright, few defenses will have cornerbacks who have any sort of chance to match-up in press, man-to-man coverage. Rest of the story here (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20420338/receivers-known-be-risky-picks).

We all know what John Elway's saying is true so sometimes you just roll the bones. I'll be watching to see if he drops to the third. I don't think he will.I'm going to keep an eye on him. I think we might be surprised.

kiwitexansfan
04-19-2012, 09:59 PM
Really? I've heard the knock on Jacoby, small hands and being a bone head and that's not what I'm hearing about Quick like big hands and having football IQ. .

Hence the more gifted part. You roll the dice with small school guys, even more so than guys from elite schools.

My major point I guess was that you can pick holes in any pick if you want. Just got to trust your scouting.

mussop
04-21-2012, 06:57 PM
Hills positives are a fit though.

He is lightning fast.
He is big.
He blocks as well or better than any WR in this draft.

That might be enough for a coach like Kubiak to think he's worth the #26 pick. His speed would stop teams from rotating over to AJ's side of the field. If not, with his size and speed he should win a fair amount of one on ones. His blocking ability would be more than enough to keep him on the field. Look at Walters, he is out there mostly because of his blocking ability. It's not like he is a great route runner or deep threat. Hill would be like having a lot faster Walters.

Section516
04-25-2012, 08:09 AM
Past week, Hills been really growing on me.

6-4/6-5 H/W/S guys with a rumored high work ethic and character don't grow on trees..

have to take the triple option attack into affect when scouting him..

High ceiling, can develop.

Blake
04-25-2012, 08:24 AM
The question is, do you want to take a guy based on potential, or a guy who has shown you what they can do?

Ive seen Wright clown DB's and Randall flying around the field snatching balls out of the air.

Ive seen Hill run a straight line very fast.

WolverineFan
04-25-2012, 08:33 AM
The question is, do you want to take a guy based on potential, or a guy who has shown you what they can do?

Ive seen Wright clown DB's and Randall flying around the field snatching balls out of the air.

Ive seen Hill run a straight line very fast.

Exactly. Just because you're a good athlete doesn't mean you're a good football player. All Hill is at this stage is potential and we need someone who can come in and immediately upgrade the WR position.

Section516
04-25-2012, 09:31 AM
The question is, do you want to take a guy based on potential, or a guy who has shown you what they can do?

Ive seen Wright clown DB's and Randall flying around the field snatching balls out of the air.

Ive seen Hill run a straight line very fast.

I'm concerned Wright is more RGIII than KW, also concerned with his size.

Won't get mad at Randall.

Was down on Hill, now more of, I can go either way..But I'd really like to time travel five years and look back on his career.

Lucky
04-25-2012, 07:29 PM
All Hill is at this stage is potential and we need someone who can come in and immediately upgrade the WR position.
There might not be a WR in this draft that fits that bill. None of these WRs were in pro offenses. None of them. From Blackmon to Floyd to Wright to Hill, all will have to learn how to play in the NFL. Yes, Kendall Wright caught a lot more passes in college than did Stephen Hill. That means squat when it comes to being ready for the NFL.

Look at the guys who had success as rookies last year: Green, Jones, and Torrey Smith. None were polished players. They made it happen because they were superior athletes. So who are the guys that are the most likely to "immediately upgrade" at WR? Guys who caught a lot of passes at the college level in college offenses? Or guys who can make plays based upon athletic ability?

Rey
04-25-2012, 10:39 PM
If I had to take my pick I'd target Alshon I'm the second round. There are traits I like in each of these second tier receivers.

I think Alshon is going to give the most bang for the buck though. And if I had to choose a wr in the first it'd be hill I think. He has top 5 wr measureables.

Lucky
04-25-2012, 10:51 PM
I think Alshon is going to give the most bang for the buck though.
Unless he popped positive on his whiz test, I'd be surprised to see Jeffery at #58. But you're right, he would be tremendous value there. Jeffery is a guy that you can throw up a jump ball to, and have him make a play. There are only a handful of guys like that in this draft.

steelbtexan
04-25-2012, 10:53 PM
It's amazing how great minds think alike. LOL

What rd do you see Janzen Jackson going in?

If he can stay out of trouble he will be a steal for some team. IMHO

Insideop
04-25-2012, 10:55 PM
If I had to take my pick I'd target Alshon I'm the second round. There are traits I like in each of these second tier receivers.

I think Alshon is going to give the most bang for the buck though. And if I had to choose a wr in the first it'd be hill I think. He has top 5 wr measureables.

If Jeffrey is there at #58 I'd have no problem taking him, but he's projected to go early in the 2nd or possibly very late in the 1st. Unlike you though, I'm seeing negative traits in each of them I don't like. With Jeffrey it's his weight gain during the season (230+) and then dramatic loss for the Combine and Pro-Day. Which one will show up at camp?

steelbtexan
04-25-2012, 10:56 PM
Unless he popped positive on his whiz test, I'd be surprised to see Jeffery at #58. But you're right, he would be tremendous value there. Jeffery is a guy that you can throw up a jump ball to, and have him make a play. There are only a handful of guys like that in this draft.

Yep

If Jeffery falls to 35 or below would you consider trading up for him?

badboy
04-25-2012, 11:03 PM
The question is, do you want to take a guy based on potential, or a guy who has shown you what they can do?

Ive seen Wright clown DB's and Randall flying around the field snatching balls out of the air.

Ive seen Hill run a straight line very fast.

This

Playoffs
09-05-2012, 12:42 AM
Chris Wesseling ‏@ChrisWesseling
Beat writer @RichCimini nominates WR Stephen Hill as biggest #Jets disappointment. "Talented, but oh so raw."

MojoMan
09-05-2012, 07:21 AM
Chris Wesseling ‏@ChrisWesseling
Beat writer @RichCimini nominates WR Stephen Hill as biggest #Jets disappointment. "Talented, but oh so raw."

Which is why the Texans wisely passed on him, despite the predictions of a number of draft "experts" that the Texans would take him in the first round.

eriadoc
09-05-2012, 09:37 AM
Early on, Alshon Jeffery and Mohammed Sanu look like they would have been well worth the Texans taking. I'm sure Posey will make us all forget those guys, though.

Rey
09-06-2012, 02:41 AM
Early on, Alshon Jeffery and Mohammed Sanu look like they would have been well worth the Texans taking. I'm sure Posey will make us all forget those guys, though.

I was hoping like hell we'd take Alshon. That guy would have been sweet in this offense.

But I do like posey. He has some skills.

beerlover
09-06-2012, 09:34 AM
In general pretty weak class. I look forward to next season crop to address WR position. Hill, Jeffery, Randle, Sanu all did not warrant a 1st rd. grade. Nor did AJ Jenkins who went #30th to San Francisco or Brian Quick #33rd St. Louis. This is what separates elite teams, those who build & stick to their draft board despite wanting a specific position. Posey fits right in with the rest of them but Texans valued him worth 68th pick, pick despite needing WR help. Salary constraints keep them from going free agency route or trading for established one as well. :texflag:

ChampionTexan
09-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Cornerback Antonio Cromartie agitated teammates last month when he called himself the second best receiver on the New York Jets.

That might be Cromartie's worldview, but it's not Rex Ryan's. The Jets coach has named rookie Stephen Hill as the starter across from Santonio Holmes, The Star-Ledger reported Thursday.

There's little surprise in the announcement. The Jets are paper thin at receiver and Hill is the obvious choice, despite his uneven preseason.
LINK (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000059007/article/rex-ryan-names-stephen-hill-starter-at-wr?campaign=Twitter_atl)

As the last sentence of the quote indicates, this appears to say more about the state of the Jets receiving corp than it does about Stephen Hill. Still, it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the season.

Playoffs
09-06-2012, 12:21 PM
LINK (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000059007/article/rex-ryan-names-stephen-hill-starter-at-wr?campaign=Twitter_atl)

As the last sentence of the quote indicates, this appears to say more about the state of the Jets receiving corp than it does about Stephen Hill. Still, it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the season.

Still, Hill starting contradicts Rich Cimini's "disappointment" piece.

Rey
09-06-2012, 12:45 PM
Still, Hill starting contradicts Rich Cimini's "disappointment" piece.

Not really. He was an early pick in the draft on a team needing wr and playmaking help.

It's not like we haven't seen teams cram players into the starting line up before they were ready or deserving.

Vinny
09-06-2012, 12:48 PM
year 3 is typically the year wr's tend to put it all together. It's all a bunch of ups and downs for most of them till then.

Playoffs
09-06-2012, 01:04 PM
Still, Hill starting contradicts Rich Cimini's "disappointment" piece.
Never mind, looks like injuries/no-preseason are the culprit. Man, they have nothing behind Santonio.

steelbtexan
09-06-2012, 08:57 PM
Not really. He was an early pick in the draft on a team needing wr and playmaking help.

It's not like we haven't seen teams cram players into the starting line up before they were ready or deserving.

1.Having Sancez/Tebow as your QB doesn't help either.

2. Exhibit A = KJ/Babin/D.Brown etc....

Playoffs
09-10-2012, 01:44 PM
5-89 yds., 2 TDs

Only 5th rookie in 25 seasons to have 2TDs in their debut.

gtexan02
09-10-2012, 01:57 PM
Did Posey see the field?

JCTexan
09-10-2012, 02:23 PM
Did Posey see the field?

No, Posey was inactive against Miami.

Dutchrudder
09-10-2012, 02:29 PM
Did Posey see the field?

Of course he did, the bench has a very good view of the turf.

eriadoc
09-10-2012, 02:38 PM
Alshon Jeffery had an OK game.

Goldensilence
09-10-2012, 03:31 PM
Did Posey see the field?

No, you know if ALL goes according to plan we'll see our third round pick NEXT year. :rake:

76Texan
09-11-2012, 05:36 PM
So how raw was Stephen Hill? :pop:

Playoffs
02-18-2014, 02:15 PM
CollegeFootball 24/7 ‏@NFL_CFB
Mayock: Won't be surprised if NY Jets pick more than one WR this year.

TexansFTW
02-18-2014, 02:32 PM
I'm not a UT fan. I watch a lot of Big 12 and ACC games though, I've seen 4 Georgia Tech games this year. Yes, he's dropped almost 40% of what he's caught. And he drops them in wide open situations. He's a Jacoby Jones. He is. Don't believe me? Earmark this thread with a potential big bowl of crow. **** I'll eat 100 bowls of it if he makes it, but he's nothing and will turnout to be nothing other than a speedy dropster. He fears contact and can't make the marquee catches a WR should (gasp, who do we have that does that?).

Nate

Good S! Wow, you called it bro. Someone just dug this thread up and now I'm going back reading it, this is a ballsy statement and you are 100% correct.

kiwitexansfan
02-18-2014, 03:37 PM
I was a Stephen Hill believer.

Jets ruined him, because I cannot be wrong!!

:kitten:

htownfan32
02-18-2014, 04:13 PM
If we're talking about WRs we all pulled for, let it be stated on the record that I was a huge proponent of Keenan Allen.

:snowday:

Playoffs
02-18-2014, 04:18 PM
The best thing about Hill is that someone will roll the dice and grab him before our pick, thus pushing a better player down to us.

The guy is an elite athlete who will get nasty in the running game. I love that about him.

But let's tap the brakes here a bit. The guy has tons of negatives:

-He ran about three different routes in his entire college career. The learning curve is going to be tremendous for him.

-From what I've seen, he has the ability to make the great catch but he is not a natural catcher. Too many wide open drops. I wouldn't say he fights the ball but he prefers to use his body instead of his hands.

-The reason his yards per catch is so high is because defenders are getting sucked up by the option game and he just uses his long speed to run past them. He is wide open because of the scheme, not because of his ability as a receiver.

There are reasons to be excited about him as a prospect. But he is a big time project. I don't 100% agree with the Jacoby Jones comparisons but he is way way closer to that than he is to the Calvin Johnsons of the league. I can easily think of about ten guys I would rather have, and most of them could be had later in the draft.Bringing forward for props, as well. :fostering:

WolverineFan
02-18-2014, 07:07 PM
If we're talking about WRs we all pulled for, let it be stated on the record that I was a huge proponent of Keenan Allen.

:snowday:

Yep so was I. Never got the hype on Hill.

Texian
02-18-2014, 08:32 PM
I would say jury is still out on Hill. Consider his QBs Sanchez and Geno. Sanchez ranked 53rd w/ a QB rating of 66.9 and Smith ranked 50th w/ a QB Rating of 66.5.

steelbtexan
02-18-2014, 08:55 PM
I would say jury is still out on Hill. Consider his QBs Sanchez and Geno. Sanchez ranked 53rd w/ a QB rating of 66.9 and Smith ranked 50th w/ a QB Rating of 66.5.

Yep

He's the type of guy somebody like the Broncos will pick up on the cheap and start tearing it up.