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thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 11:55 AM
Forget about the cap number (even though that is the most important number).

Forget about the money to be paid over the first three years of the contract (even though that is the second most important number)

For now, let's focus on the least important number of all. The avg cost of Mario's new deal...... if you were the guy writing his new deal, what's your max avg salary?

$15M/yr

$23M/yr

$6M/yr

or do you really not care as long as it's cap friendly for the first 3 years?

please, justify your max valuation.

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 11:57 AM
I think our max offer should be no more than $14M/yr

I base that on Julius Peppers' contract 2 years ago.

I think the Texans should offer him somewhere between Charles Johnson Money ($10M/yr) & Peppers' money.... max $14M/yr.

Mr teX
02-23-2012, 12:10 PM
10-14 is probably where im at with it...if he declines & decides to go elsewhere so be it. both sides have cases to be made as to why it should be somewhere in this range imo.

welsh texan
02-23-2012, 12:11 PM
Based on extremely limited knowledge of the cap situation etc, the number I feel comfortable with is ~$12m/per.
That said, its a piss in the wind opinion based on mostly piss in the wind information.

The reason I've come to that valuation is because I believe Mario is extremely important to our D, I think our D has the potential to make history with Mario a part of it, I think it has the potential to win the SB without him as long as the O also performs.

However, given the snippets we're hearing about our possible cap situation heading into free agency, it also seems important to me to sign this guy at a significant discount to his hit last year

Another thing I'd say is, regardless of what others have said on this matter, I think its more important to ensure we keep this team together this season than worry what happens next season. Why worry about a years time when they are offering a Lombardi for the best team between now and then? How about not worrying what happens with Schaub's contract at a time when the guy is on crutches and may not be worth a new contract by then?

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 12:34 PM
Based on extremely limited knowledge of the cap situation etc, the number I feel comfortable with is ~$12m/per.
That said, its a piss in the wind opinion based on mostly piss in the wind information.

The reason I've come to that valuation is because I believe Mario is extremely important to our D, I think our D has the potential to make history with Mario a part of it, I think it has the potential to win the SB without him as long as the O also performs.

However, given the snippets we're hearing about our possible cap situation heading into free agency, it also seems important to me to sign this guy at a significant discount to his hit last year


Great post, all of it.

However, it sounds like you think he is worth more than $12M, but because of the cap situation you're only prepared to offer him $12M..... which is cool.

Another thing to look at, he only made $9M/yr (according to his base contract) over the first 6 years of his career. Which, I think is why he would not have wanted to renegotiate the final year of that deal, because it would totally ruin what he "earned" over the first 5 years.

If you took that $16M & turned it into $25M to go along with a new contract over the next 5 or 6 years, then he played the first 5 years for only $7.6M/yr, which is silly for a first overall pick.

If you're going to say the $16M still goes to his first six years, then the remaining $9M will go to his next 6 years....
Let's say you want his next 6 years, starting in 2012, to average $12M/yr, that's a total contract of $72M (Charles Johnson money

$9M of that is counted for in the $25M bonus. We subtract $9M from $72 & get $63M. Divide that by 6 we're looking at $10.5M/yr.

Now you've got to take the $25M bonus, divide that by 6 for an extra $4.2M towards his cap number. Throw in the rules about a player's salary can't increase more than 30% from one year to the next & you're looking at a $14.2M cap number for 6 years.


Ain't going to happen. So, if I were Mario's agent, I would have advised him totally against restructuring the last year of his contract. Mainly because he didn't get a signing bonus.

Had he got a signing bonus as a rookie, his salary over the last two years would have been meaningless. The earlier you redo the contract, the higher the player's average salary for those early years (with a signing bonus).

I'm rambling now, but let's say he got a $25M signing bonus & $4M salary over the first three years of the contract. That's $37M leaving $17M to be paid over the last two years for an average of $9M over 6 (which is what Mario was paid). So for his 4th year, he could have had a salary of $7M ($12M cap) & $10M ($15M cap) his 5th year.

Now, let's say we want to waive that 5th year, we want to redo his contract. In the 4 previous years, he earned $44M, he effectively averaged $11M/yr on a contract that was written at $9M/yr.... in that case the FA-to-be will be extremely willing to redo his contract.

The way Mario did his contract, or Adrian Peterson did his.... they want the money in the final year, they'll be reluctant to renegotiate, unless they think they'll be cut & won't find better offers as a FA.

Damn..... I feel like GP.

Welsh.... I said all that to say your $12M/yr is still a sizeable raise for Mario Williams, an extra $3M/yr.

Corrosion
02-23-2012, 01:28 PM
I think fair market value might be greater than $15m .... meaning someone might offer him stupid money.

I place his value in the $10m-$15m per bracket ....

But I voted "dont care as long as its cap friendly" as that is probably the most important aspect of any MW contract - allowing for the other FA's to be resigned.

ckhouston
02-23-2012, 02:45 PM
As close as we can talk him into a 10M a year base, but incentive laden.

b0ng
02-23-2012, 03:18 PM
I would be fine with him signing a contract that did not put more than a $12m/yr cap hit on our books. What he actually gets paid is something I care very little about, but as long as his cap hit is around 10% or less I think I would be okay with that. Maybe 11%, definitely no more than 15% (Which is probably way too much).

Trail.Blazr
02-23-2012, 03:31 PM
Defying my love for Mario, I am a bit hard nosed on the poll. I'm of the impression that he's got mad money already and the ROI has been seemingly disappointing, whatever the reason. I know that the market would say otherwise, which makes my choice absurd to think it would retain him in Houston, but my what have you done for me lately side says, when he still has yet to achieve the potential which his past contracts were based on, I'm not one for progressive betting. But then again, people win by that strategy...

dalemurphy
02-23-2012, 03:42 PM
I could care less if Mario made $30 million a year if it wasn't for a cap and an NFL budget. So, I'm not sure I can answer the question the way it was posed.

Taking any goofy structuring out of the equation, though, based on the current NFL cap, I'd say Mario is worth about $8 million per year to this team. I think he's worth more to other teams that need a 4-3 strong side DE. But, for this team: $8 million. My reasons are well chronicled in other threads:

- injuries
- production of the defense sans Mario
- inconsistent motor
- better 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB

BullNation4Life
02-23-2012, 04:20 PM
I could care less if Mario made $30 million a year if it wasn't for a cap and an NFL budget. So, I'm not sure I can answer the question the way it was posed.

Taking any goofy structuring out of the equation, though, based on the current NFL cap, I'd say Mario is worth about $8 million per year to this team. I think he's worth more to other teams that need a 4-3 strong side DE. But, for this team: $8 million. My reasons are well chronicled in other threads:

- injuries
- production of the defense sans Mario
- inconsistent motor
- better 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB

CAUTION....:clown: at work....

Pretty sad when one of your own players is worth more to other teams, including OTHER 3-4 defenses, than the fans of that players own team....

like the song goes..."Don't know what you got, till it's gone."

Texecutioner
02-23-2012, 04:50 PM
I could care less if Mario made $30 million a year if it wasn't for a cap and an NFL budget. So, I'm not sure I can answer the question the way it was posed.

Taking any goofy structuring out of the equation, though, based on the current NFL cap, I'd say Mario is worth about $8 million per year to this team. I think he's worth more to other teams that need a 4-3 strong side DE. But, for this team: $8 million. My reasons are well chronicled in other threads:

- injuries
- production of the defense sans Mario
- inconsistent motor
- better 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB

8 Million dollars is fair in my eyes as well. That's about right considering how he performs play in and play out.

Anyone suggesting that Mario should be paid more than 10 Million a year by the Texans is nuts. That would be a complete waste of money considering the other pass rushers we have now and how much easier it should be to find other ones to fit well in this system as far as just rushing the passer. Let Mario get over paid somewhere else. Lord knows we've already done that for several years.

Texecutioner
02-23-2012, 04:56 PM
CAUTION....:clown: at work....

Pretty sad when one of your own players is worth more to other teams, including OTHER 3-4 defenses, than the fans of that players own team....

like the song goes..."Don't know what you got, till it's gone."

Caution :homer: at work.

What's pretty sad is how you toss this kind of slime at Dale for pointing out a lot of glaring issues on this subject and completely act like none of them have any merit. You don't have to agree with the assertion that Mario isn't worth it, but don't sit here and act like it's the most ridiculous position to take on earth regarding a guy who just came off a season ending injury where his team's defense didn't miss a beat without him. Take your homer glasses off for a second and recognize that we had a top 3 defense in the league all season long without Mario Williams on the field from several young players who should only get better whom all play at a more intense pace than Mario Williams ever has. If Mario Williams was on some other team and he was a FA right now, you'd probably be laughing at anyone stating to pay him around 15 Million a year for this team after the season we just had.

DocBar
02-23-2012, 05:43 PM
I went with $10-15M/yr because that's just what "elite" passrushers command. I'm one of the kooks that doesn't think MW is particularly elite, though. I think he's above average at his position, but inconsistent to the point that he disappears for entire games.
To point out a fallacy in some thinking (looking at you Welsh), the reason you don't go for broke for one season, on one (IMO injury prone) player is that football is a team sport and it's a very rare talent that can get a team to a SB all by himself. Luck plays a large part in winning the SB, just ask the Giants. Teams also want to consistently be in the hunt for the SB. Lots and lots of teams have been 1 or 2 year wonders that burn out quickly, due to cap hell. The truly elite teams in the NFL routinely let players who are considered "elite" walk or be traded so that they can stay relevant in the hunt for the SB and improve the overall team. You don't see Pittsburgh or NE getting themselves in this situation too often. Pittsburgh is there right now, and all indications are that they let Wallace walk to prevent the same situation next season. The Texans are in the same boat. Who do you want them to emulate? I vote the Steelers and Patriots. Perennial playoff tems and SB contenders.
Think of this the next time one of those Dirct TV commercials come on. Don;t end up in a ditch.

dalemurphy
02-23-2012, 05:57 PM
CAUTION....:clown: at work....

Pretty sad when one of your own players is worth more to other teams, including OTHER 3-4 defenses, than the fans of that players own team....

like the song goes..."Don't know what you got, till it's gone."

Where were you in October, November, December of 2011... not to mention this January?

I know what we've got when Mario's gone... and, it's very, very good!

Double Barrel
02-23-2012, 06:16 PM
Our defense was badass without him.

Not knocking Mario, as I would love to see him continue his career with the Texans.

But, I cannot support overpaying him to keep him here at the expense of other areas of the team.

It really depends on what Mario wants in the end. It's his call, and if it's all about the money (which is certainly his right), then he will not be a Texan in 2012.

But, if his mentality is like A.J., to win with the team that drafted you, we have a shot.

leebigeztx
02-23-2012, 06:21 PM
36-42m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs. After that,it doesn't matter to me,mario,his agent,or the texans. If he turns it down,good luck,wish him success and on to the other business.

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 07:11 PM
Lots and lots of teams have been 1 or 2 year wonders that burn out quickly, due to cap hell. The truly elite teams in the NFL routinely let players who are considered "elite" walk or be traded so that they can stay relevant in the hunt for the SB and improve the overall team. You don't see Pittsburgh or NE getting themselves in this situation too often. Pittsburgh is there right now, and all indications are that they let Wallace walk to prevent the same situation next season. The Texans are in the same boat. Who do you want them to emulate? I vote the Steelers and Patriots. Perennial playoff tems and SB contenders.
Think of this the next time one of those Dirct TV commercials come on. Don;t end up in a ditch.

Let's think about this. The Steelers gave James Harrison the biggest LB contract (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4064291) in history at the time. Then just 3 years later signed Woodley to an even larger contract (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6835818/lamarr-woodley-pittsburgh-steelers-lands-6-year-615m-deal). So let's put an end to this "Steelers don't pay elite players."

Then, which elite players have these teams "let go" that continued on as "elite" players? Randy Moss? I think the correct characterization of these organizations, is that they are more correct than not about knowing when to hold'em & when to fold'em.

Texan_Bill
02-23-2012, 07:18 PM
"Value" versus "Cost" are mutually exclusive.


What I mean is that with the performances of Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed, Mario's "value" to the Texans isn't necessarily that much (monetarily). Cost for a physical specimen and a good pass rusher; cost would be too high, given there are several teams that would be willing to overpay for him, relative to the various team's situations...

If that made any sense!??!?

:facepalm: Bill!

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 07:36 PM
Caution :homer: at work.

What's pretty sad is how you toss this kind of slime at Dale for pointing out a lot of glaring issues on this subject and completely act like none of them have any merit. You don't have to agree with the assertion that Mario isn't worth it, but don't sit here and act like it's the most ridiculous position to take on earth regarding a guy who just came off a season ending injury where his team's defense didn't miss a beat without him. Take your homer glasses off for a second and recognize that we had a top 3 defense in the league all season long without Mario Williams on the field from several young players who should only get better whom all play at a more intense pace than Mario Williams ever has. If Mario Williams was on some other team and he was a FA right now, you'd probably be laughing at anyone stating to pay him around 15 Million a year for this team after the season we just had.

Is BullNation4Life being a homer? Maybe, but let's look at the facts.

He is using stats.... objective performance indicators to support his position. You & dalemurphy are using a subjective measure to support yours. A subjective measure that is shared by a minority of posters on this board. A subjective measure that I have not heard or seen by anyone in the media (industry if you will) other than Lance Zierline.

Antonio Smith does not share your subjective opinion, Wade Phillips does not share your subjective opinion, Connor Barwin does not share your subjective opinion, Warren Sapp does not share your subjective opinion, Michael Strahan does not share your objective opinion, Deacon Jones (arguably the best pass rusher of all time) does not share your subjective opinion.... but BullNation4Life is being a homer?

Back to the objective stats.... in 5 of 6 years, Mario Williams has led this team in sacks, hurries, knock downs... despite being injured.... despite being "outplayed" by Mr. Effort (Antonio Smith).

In his sixth season, Mario Williams led the Texans in sacks through 5 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 6 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 8 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 9 weeks. Mario Williams led the team in sacks through 12 weeks. All, but what, 15 minutes?, Mario was on the bench.

On the bench. & we're only talking 5 sacks.

But BulletNation4Life is being the Homer?

One more thing. Mario Williams played (used loosely) the previous 6 seasons for $9M/yr. Led the team in Sacks through most of that time. Two double digit years. Very few people have more sacks over the same time period. Two Probowl Appearances...... & it's not like he started because the "real" starter backed out.. & you want him to take a pay-cut?

You think that is "fair" that is what he's "worth"

I think BullNation4Life used the :clown: correctly & though BullNation4Life may be a homer, it's not because of his opinion on this subject.

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 07:46 PM
But, I cannot support overpaying him to keep him here at the expense of other areas of the team.



I understand the rest of your post & I respect your opinion. However, the purpose of this thread is to define what "over-paying" really is.

Mario will or will not get signed & we'll have a discussion, either the Texans over-payed or the Texans didn't offer a "fair" deal.

Then we can have the discussion about whether the decision hurt the team in terms of cap space, or whatever.

welsh texan
02-23-2012, 08:25 PM
I went with $10-15M/yr because that's just what "elite" passrushers command. I'm one of the kooks that doesn't think MW is particularly elite, though. I think he's above average at his position, but inconsistent to the point that he disappears for entire games.
To point out a fallacy in some thinking (looking at you Welsh), the reason you don't go for broke for one season, on one (IMO injury prone) player is that football is a team sport and it's a very rare talent that can get a team to a SB all by himself. Luck plays a large part in winning the SB, just ask the Giants. Teams also want to consistently be in the hunt for the SB. Lots and lots of teams have been 1 or 2 year wonders that burn out quickly, due to cap hell. The truly elite teams in the NFL routinely let players who are considered "elite" walk or be traded so that they can stay relevant in the hunt for the SB and improve the overall team. You don't see Pittsburgh or NE getting themselves in this situation too often. Pittsburgh is there right now, and all indications are that they let Wallace walk to prevent the same situation next season. The Texans are in the same boat. Who do you want them to emulate? I vote the Steelers and Patriots. Perennial playoff tems and SB contenders.
Think of this the next time one of those Dirct TV commercials come on. Don;t end up in a ditch.

I see your point DB, but I don't think spending $12m per for Mario is 'going for broke' for one season. I wasn't advocating putting ourselves in cap hell in 12 months time, but there are ways and means of structuring both his and other contracts so that the big hit to the cap comes once the cap has increased.

I'm sure the Texans know more than I do about where the numbers are likely to fall, but I've seen as much as a $180mm cap rumoured in 2 or 3 years time. At that point, you pay out roster bonuses to your larger contract players and bring down their cap hits across the rest of the contract.

Just imagine Mario signs for 6 years @ $72mm, but recieves a $12mm roster bonus in 2014, his cap hit could then be as low as ~$8 mill for the first two years while money is a little tight.

Now, I'm not that bothered either way whether they keep Mario or not, I think the definately should if they can, but will understand if they don't, my liberty white 90 jersey is getting a little worse for wear now anyway so it aint gonna be like when my dad sent me D. Davis in 2005 followed by Carr in 2006 (ouch!) I jest.

But some of you guys, such as tex and dale talk as if it would be utterly crazy to resign this guy, or that theres no way of doing it and not being in cap hell, but really, when the cap rises, $12mill per isn't going to look like franchise pay anyway, now is a good time to be paying these key players cos in 6 years time their contracts are going to look really club-friendly.

DocBar
02-23-2012, 09:01 PM
Let's think about this. The Steelers gave James Harrison the biggest LB contract (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4064291) in history at the time. Then just 3 years later signed Woodley to an even larger contract (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6835818/lamarr-woodley-pittsburgh-steelers-lands-6-year-615m-deal). So let's put an end to this "Steelers don't pay elite players."

Then, which elite players have these teams "let go" that continued on as "elite" players? Randy Moss? I think the correct characterization of these organizations, is that they are more correct than not about knowing when to hold'em & when to fold'em.Let us put this to bed. Both players were superior to MW and are superior to MW. Paying players isn't bad. Over paying players is. End of argument. Why not mention the supposed "elite players" the Steelers let "get away? Avoid Llloyd? Kevin Greene? Both better than MW. Mike Wallace? Better at his position than MW at his. I can do this all day long.

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 09:33 PM
Let us put this to bed. Both players were superior to MW and are superior to MW. Paying players isn't bad. Over paying players is. End of argument. Why not mention the supposed "elite players" the Steelers let "get away? Avoid Llloyd? Kevin Greene? Both better than MW. Mike Wallace? Better at his position than MW at his. I can do this all day long.

I didn't mention the players, because I couldn't think of any.... Kevin Greene, I remember. But I don't think that was about the Steelers not wanting to pay him, I thought it had to do with the rules for the expansion team (Panthers).

I definitely do not think Mike Wallace is better at his position than Mario is at his. You're going by what you see Wallace do with Big Ben throwing him the ball. I guarantee you, Mike Wallace will be a different WR with Schaub throwing him the ball.

Not that I think Ben is better than Matt..... only different. Ben has a bigger arm & he'll rather overthrow his receiver, to take advantage of Wallace's speed, than underthrow him..... negating Wallace's only advantage.

Ben can also scramble, buy time, cause a defenses to break down, then use that big arm to find his receiver anywhere (hyperbole) on the field.

At the same time, you put Mario on a team that is capable of racking up 44 sacks, then he's going to look like a much different player.

whitewater
02-23-2012, 09:35 PM
Mario is much more valuable to another team than to us, now that we discovered Brooks Reed.

By the way, what is the characteristic called Rep. power: and a number that appears below your name, and how do you acquire these points?

noxiousdog
02-23-2012, 10:06 PM
Let us put this to bed. Both players were superior to MW and are superior to MW. Paying players isn't bad. Over paying players is. End of argument. Why not mention the supposed "elite players" the Steelers let "get away? Avoid Llloyd? Kevin Greene? Both better than MW. Mike Wallace? Better at his position than MW at his. I can do this all day long.


How in the world could you believe that James Harrison is or was ever better than Mario Williams? Lloyd is a joke (One 10 sack season in his career).

Harrison wasn't even a full time player until he was 29 years old!

Lamar Woodley's best sack season is worse than Mario's best. His 2nd best is worse than Mario's second best.

Let's even assume that it shows up in 'intangibles that you can't find on a stat sheet.' What percentage of Steelers games do you watch?


That being said, Kevin Greene was a badass every where he went.

ObsiWan
02-24-2012, 01:40 AM
Is BullNation4Life being a homer? Maybe, but let's look at the facts.

He is using stats.... objective performance indicators to support his position. You & dalemurphy are using a subjective measure to support yours. A subjective measure that is shared by a minority of posters on this board. A subjective measure that I have not heard or seen by anyone in the media (industry if you will) other than Lance Zierline.

Antonio Smith does not share your subjective opinion, Wade Phillips does not share your subjective opinion, Connor Barwin does not share your subjective opinion, Warren Sapp does not share your subjective opinion, Michael Strahan does not share your objective opinion, Deacon Jones (arguably the best pass rusher of all time) does not share your subjective opinion.... but BullNation4Life is being a homer?

Back to the objective stats.... in 5 of 6 years, Mario Williams has led this team in sacks, hurries, knock downs... despite being injured.... despite being "outplayed" by Mr. Effort (Antonio Smith).

In his sixth season, Mario Williams led the Texans in sacks through 5 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 6 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 8 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 9 weeks. Mario Williams led the team in sacks through 12 weeks. All, but what, 15 minutes?, Mario was on the bench.

On the bench. & we're only talking 5 sacks.

But BulletNation4Life is being the Homer?

One more thing. Mario Williams played (used loosely) the previous 6 seasons for $9M/yr. Led the team in Sacks through most of that time. Two double digit years. Very few people have more sacks over the same time period. Two Probowl Appearances...... & it's not like he started because the "real" starter backed out.. & you want him to take a pay-cut?

You think that is "fair" that is what he's "worth"

I think BullNation4Life used the :clown: correctly & though BullNation4Life may be a homer, it's not because of his opinion on this subject.

excellent post!
msr

dalemurphy
02-24-2012, 07:00 AM
Is BullNation4Life being a homer? Maybe, but let's look at the facts.

He is using stats.... objective performance indicators to support his position. You & dalemurphy are using a subjective measure to support yours. A subjective measure that is shared by a minority of posters on this board. A subjective measure that I have not heard or seen by anyone in the media (industry if you will) other than Lance Zierline.


One more thing. Mario Williams played (used loosely) the previous 6 seasons for $9M/yr. Led the team in Sacks through most of that time. Two double digit years. Very few people have more sacks over the same time period. Two Probowl Appearances...... & it's not like he started because the "real" starter backed out.. & you want him to take a pay-cut?

You think that is "fair" that is what he's "worth"


Value is subjective. However, I'm offering plenty of objective evidence. Here's a refresher on some of it:

1. Texans defense without Mario 255 ypg in 2011; with Mario: 325 yds per game.
2. Consecutive years on the Injured Reserve: 2
3. Consecutve years with less than 10 sacks: 3
4. cost to Texans per sack last year: $3.5 million

I can't think of a worse way to do business than to make decisions on what is "fair" for a player who has already earned $50 milliion. By the way, was it "fair" that the Texans were required, by NFL rule, to pay Mario $9 million per year when he had done nothing to earn it?

Trail.Blazr
02-24-2012, 07:53 AM
Value is subjective. However, I'm offering plenty of objective evidence. Here's a refresher on some of it:

1. Texans defense without Mario 255 ypg in 2011; with Mario: 325 yds per game.
2. Consecutive years on the Injured Reserve: 2
3. Consecutve years with less than 10 sacks: 3
4. cost to Texans per sack last year: $3.5 million

I can't think of a worse way to do business than to make decisions on what is "fair" for a player who has already been paid $50 milliion. By the way, was it "fair" that the Texans were required, by NFL rule, to pay Mario $9 million per year when he had done nothing to earn it?

MSR. but let me fix that for you....

Mario is by far one of my favorite players on the team, but it's due more to the fact that I went all in on him when he was drafted based on his potential and hype. Over the years, there's been a shift for me, in that I'm no longer sold on going all in. I want to, but cant. No denying he has "it". Where I fall off is that he doesn't appear to bring "it" all the time. Leading the team on any given year isn't enough... that's been a low bar from the get go. He was brought in to be the SACK machine for this franchise.. no two ways about it, his job was to get to the QB. In 6 season's he's hit double digit numbers twice, and never flirted with 20. Anyone can offer up what ever excuse they want as to why, but in 6 seasons, excuses are all you get. Not one single fan I know wouldn't LOVE to see #90 put together a season that would leave NO doubt that he's a worthy overall #1 pick type of guy. That's what I would go all in for. But so far that hasn't happened, so "it" is what "it" is. Offer the guy a "good" contract. If he doesn't take it and goes elsewhere, so be "it".

welsh texan
02-24-2012, 08:06 AM
Its too easy for people to use the way he got hurt this season against him, when, he was a big mis-match at the OLB position and finally looked capable of dominating games whilst he was still in learning mode.

I think the discovery of Brooks Reed only makes Mario better, he comes out and rests on some plays and comes back in fresh, I think thats a recipe for 20 sacks per year.

That makes him valuable to the team.

I also think Mario still makes those around him better, we saw a drop off in stats when Mario went down until the guys adjusted to him not being there.

Mario was demanding triple coverage, they were taking Tight Ends and Running Backs out of receiving routes because they were so scared of Mario, thats worth a boatload of cash, even if you have really good replacements around him, he is still a great option to have.

JMO

HJam72
02-24-2012, 08:25 AM
As close as we can talk him into a 10M a year base, but incentive laden.

I'm fine with incentive-laden.

Rey
02-24-2012, 09:48 AM
Value is subjective. However, I'm offering plenty of objective evidence. Here's a refresher on some of it:

1. Texans defense without Mario 255 ypg in 2011; with Mario: 325 yds per game.
2. Consecutive years on the Injured Reserve: 2
3. Consecutve years with less than 10 sacks: 3
4. cost to Texans per sack last year: $3.5 million


#1 has already been discussed several times yet you refuse to aknowledge the the many factors that played a role in the improvement of the defense over the course of the year. Completely showing your bias there as that viewpoint is so out of whack it doesn't make any sense.

#2,3, & 4 are the same thing...Injuries. That's actually a reasonable concern but there are other factors involved with that as well.

drs23
02-24-2012, 09:59 AM
Is BullNation4Life being a homer? Maybe, but let's look at the facts.

He is using stats.... objective performance indicators to support his position. You & dalemurphy are using a subjective measure to support yours. A subjective measure that is shared by a minority of posters on this board. A subjective measure that I have not heard or seen by anyone in the media (industry if you will) other than Lance Zierline.

Antonio Smith does not share your subjective opinion, Wade Phillips does not share your subjective opinion, Connor Barwin does not share your subjective opinion, Warren Sapp does not share your subjective opinion, Michael Strahan does not share your objective opinion, Deacon Jones (arguably the best pass rusher of all time) does not share your subjective opinion.... but BullNation4Life is being a homer?

Back to the objective stats.... in 5 of 6 years, Mario Williams has led this team in sacks, hurries, knock downs... despite being injured.... despite being "outplayed" by Mr. Effort (Antonio Smith).

In his sixth season, Mario Williams led the Texans in sacks through 5 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 6 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 8 weeks. He led the team in sacks through 9 weeks. Mario Williams led the team in sacks through 12 weeks. All, but what, 15 minutes?, Mario was on the bench.

On the bench. & we're only talking 5 sacks.

But BulletNation4Life is being the Homer?

One more thing. Mario Williams played (used loosely) the previous 6 seasons for $9M/yr. Led the team in Sacks through most of that time. Two double digit years. Very few people have more sacks over the same time period. Two Probowl Appearances...... & it's not like he started because the "real" starter backed out.. & you want him to take a pay-cut?

You think that is "fair" that is what he's "worth"

I think BullNation4Life used the :clown: correctly & though BullNation4Life may be a homer, it's not because of his opinion on this subject.

Clearly written, persuasive and on point. Good post. I'm in.

MSR

Double Barrel
02-24-2012, 10:55 AM
I understand the rest of your post & I respect your opinion. However, the purpose of this thread is to define what "over-paying" really is.

Mario will or will not get signed & we'll have a discussion, either the Texans over-payed or the Texans didn't offer a "fair" deal.

Then we can have the discussion about whether the decision hurt the team in terms of cap space, or whatever.

Well, obviously the term "overpaying" is subjective. My take is that any figure that hurts us on the cap and does not allow us to maximize our roster to the full benefit of the team would be considered overpaying him.

But, what that exact number is something we cannot pin down without access to contract details that are traditionally out of our sight.

I think paying him what the market will probably offer him would be clearly overpaying him, though.

I hope he offers us the so-called 'hometown discount', but like I said, that part is up to Mario and what he wants in his career. I cannot hold it against him if he does go for maximum salary. It's just business.

DocBar
02-24-2012, 11:46 AM
How in the world could you believe that James Harrison is or was ever better than Mario Williams? Lloyd is a joke (One 10 sack season in his career).

Harrison wasn't even a full time player until he was 29 years old!

Lamar Woodley's best sack season is worse than Mario's best. His 2nd best is worse than Mario's second best.

Let's even assume that it shows up in 'intangibles that you can't find on a stat sheet.' What percentage of Steelers games do you watch?


That being said, Kevin Greene was a badass every where he went.
Where did I mention Woodley or Harrison? If you think Lloyd was a joke, you must be fairly young or didn't pay much attention to football in the late '80's and early 90's. Lloyd was a helluva linebacker. So he wasn't used as a passrusher, big deal. I guess you think Urlacher is a joke because he only has 41.5 sacks in 12 years.
The message I was trying to get across wasn't specifically directed towards passrushers. It was about players who are considered elite being let go to keep from overpaying them.
I lament your inability to read.

DocBar
02-24-2012, 11:51 AM
I didn't mention the players, because I couldn't think of any.... Kevin Greene, I remember. But I don't think that was about the Steelers not wanting to pay him, I thought it had to do with the rules for the expansion team (Panthers).

I definitely do not think Mike Wallace is better at his position than Mario is at his. You're going by what you see Wallace do with Big Ben throwing him the ball. I guarantee you, Mike Wallace will be a different WR with Schaub throwing him the ball.

Not that I think Ben is better than Matt..... only different. Ben has a bigger arm & he'll rather overthrow his receiver, to take advantage of Wallace's speed, than underthrow him..... negating Wallace's only advantage.

Ben can also scramble, buy time, cause a defenses to break down, then use that big arm to find his receiver anywhere (hyperbole) on the field.

At the same time, you put Mario on a team that is capable of racking up 44 sacks, then he's going to look like a much different player.I conceded the Wallace argument to you in this thread or the other one. I simply don't know enough about Wallaces game to speak with any confidence.
As to the bolded, you must assume that Mario is going to stay healthy. Why is it that Jared Allen can pull off 22 sacks while on a team that sucked? They rarely, if ever, played with a big lead this past season. Do you think it's maybe because Allen goes all out every single snap and Mario doesn't?

thunderkyss
02-24-2012, 11:58 AM
I think paying him what the market will probably offer him would be clearly overpaying him, though.



I agree with this. Once he hits FA, it'll start a bidding war. We can't compete with the desperate teams with tons of cash, like Tampa Bay, or Chicago when they landed Peppers.

Such is the cost of FA

thunderkyss
02-24-2012, 12:20 PM
I conceded the Wallace argument to you in this thread or the other one. I simply don't know enough about Wallaces game to speak with any confidence.
As to the bolded, you must assume that Mario is going to stay healthy. Why is it that Jared Allen can pull off 22 sacks while on a team that sucked? They rarely, if ever, played with a big lead this past season. Do you think it's maybe because Allen goes all out every single snap and Mario doesn't?

Maybe. It also could be that your definition of "a team that sucked" doesn't fit this discussion. The Minnesota Vikings led the league in sacks (tied with Philadelphia). Jared had plenty of help from his team mates...

There were two players on the team with more than 5 sacks. Jared Allen counted for 40% of the team's sacks. Which is impressive & along the same lines as what Mario has done here.

Look, Jared Allen counted 0 sacks against Oakland, Atlanta, & New Orleans. Do you think he didn't give any effort in those games? Of course not, his team ran up against a better team & that's just the way it goes some times.

Do you think Jared Allen would have racked up 22 sacks if Brian Robison (8 sacks) & Kevin Williams (5 sacks) missed the season for one reason or another?

Let's look at it this way. In the games that Mario Williams played, Antonio Smith had 4 sacks. That's 4 games, 1 sack per game. In the games that Mario Williams did not play, Antonio Smith had 2.5 sacks (I'm giving the half a sack during the Oakland game, because I don't know if that happened before/after Mario got hurt).... 0.21 sacks per game.

It can't be proven that Mario was the difference. But it is a reasonable assumption that Antonio would have had more sacks had Mario continued to play next to him. If we've got a team of guys getting to the QB, they'll make Mario's job easier, just like Mario will make their jobs easier.

DocBar
02-24-2012, 12:28 PM
Maybe. It also could be that your definition of "a team that sucked" doesn't fit this discussion. The Minnesota Vikings led the league in sacks (tied with Philadelphia). Jared had plenty of help from his team mates...

There were two players on the team with more than 5 sacks. Jared Allen counted for 40% of the team's sacks. Which is impressive & along the same lines as what Mario has done here.

Look, Jared Allen counted 0 sacks against Oakland, Atlanta, & New Orleans. Do you think he didn't give any effort in those games? Of course not, his team ran up against a better team & that's just the way it goes some times.

Do you think Jared Allen would have racked up 22 sacks if Brian Robison (8 sacks) & Kevin Williams (5 sacks) missed the season for one reason or another?

Let's look at it this way. In the games that Mario Williams played, Antonio Smith had 4 sacks. That's 4 games, 1 sack per game. In the games that Mario Williams did not play, Antonio Smith had 2.5 sacks (I'm giving the half a sack during the Oakland game, because I don't know if that happened before/after Mario got hurt).... 0.21 sacks per game.

It can't be proven that Mario was the difference. But it is a reasonable assumption that Antonio would have had more sacks had Mario continued to play next to him. If we've got a team of guys getting to the QB, they'll make Mario's job easier, just like Mario will make their jobs easier.:goodpost::clap:

noxiousdog
02-24-2012, 12:32 PM
Where did I mention Woodley or Harrison? If you think Lloyd was a joke, you must be fairly young or didn't pay much attention to football in the late '80's and early 90's. Lloyd was a helluva linebacker. So he wasn't used as a passrusher, big deal. I guess you think Urlacher is a joke because he only has 41.5 sacks in 12 years.
The message I was trying to get across wasn't specifically directed towards passrushers. It was about players who are considered elite being let go to keep from overpaying them.
I lament your inability to read.


By 'joke' I meant in the context of this conversation. Lloyd was pretty good for 3 years when there weren't many dominating linebackers, and likely was a product of the system.

Urlacher has had 90+ tackles in 7 seasons, with 3 more at 79+.

And by 'let go' you mean after an injury ruined him, cause he was not good his last two years in Pittsburgh.

noxiousdog
02-24-2012, 12:35 PM
and doc:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Let's think about this. The Steelers gave James Harrison the biggest LB contract in history at the time. Then just 3 years later signed Woodley to an even larger contract. So let's put an end to this "Steelers don't pay elite players."

Both players were superior to MW and are superior to MW.

Mr teX
02-24-2012, 12:59 PM
I conceded the Wallace argument to you in this thread or the other one. I simply don't know enough about Wallaces game to speak with any confidence.
As to the bolded, you must assume that Mario is going to stay healthy. Why is it that Jared Allen can pull off 22 sacks while on a team that sucked? They rarely, if ever, played with a big lead this past season. Do you think it's maybe because Allen goes all out every single snap and Mario doesn't?


T-skyss, i don't mean to derail your thread but i've got to get to the bottom of this as this board/city & its fans are the only people i ever hear complain about this dude's effort\ motor since he's been in the NFL.

I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys coaches
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys teammates
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys opponents

that say this guy dogs it every other play & to my knowledge, i haven't seen any of those trademark "dog" plays that we've all seen from the Randy Moss' and Albert Haynesworth's of the league.

The only thing i can come up with is that he's just 1 of those guys that doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast & hard as he can play...sort of out there making it look effortless if you will. That, his overall demeanor on the field & some of those concerns about his motor are still lingering from when he was drafted.

I'll admit, when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast as he can play. but as we all know, looks can be decieving. I watch players like Jacoby on the tube & it looks like this guy isn't running fast at all.... but we know what his 40 time is. Guys like emmitt smith who didn't run blistering 40 times & didn't have animated running styles, but somehow always managed to pull away from guys in the open field are guys i'm refering to.

I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.

dalemurphy
02-24-2012, 04:30 PM
Its too easy for people to use the way he got hurt this season against him, when, he was a big mis-match at the OLB position and finally looked capable of dominating games whilst he was still in learning mode.

I think the discovery of Brooks Reed only makes Mario better, he comes out and rests on some plays and comes back in fresh, I think thats a recipe for 20 sacks per year.

That makes him valuable to the team.

I also think Mario still makes those around him better, we saw a drop off in stats when Mario went down until the guys adjusted to him not being there.

Mario was demanding triple coverage, they were taking Tight Ends and Running Backs out of receiving routes because they were so scared of Mario, thats worth a boatload of cash, even if you have really good replacements around him, he is still a great option to have.

JMO

A drop off in what stats? After he went down, the defense, as a whole, was much better than it ever had been in almost every, single category. I'll take a couple fewer sacks from Antonio Smith if that means the Texans will be the best defense in the NFL. Individually, some stats were better without him and some were worse. However, for the defense as a whole (which is what I care about), the defense was better without him over a very long stretch of games. Clearly, that means he is not essential to the defense's success. I'm not sure how that point can be argued.

dalemurphy
02-24-2012, 04:36 PM
T-skyss, i don't mean to derail your thread but i've got to get to the bottom of this as this board/city & its fans are the only people i ever hear complain about this dude's effort\ motor since he's been in the NFL.

I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys coaches
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys teammates
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys opponents

that say this guy dogs it every other play & to my knowledge, i haven't seen any of those trademark "dog" plays that we've all seen from the Randy Moss' and Albert Haynesworth's of the league.

The only thing i can come up with is that he's just 1 of those guys that doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast & hard as he can play...sort of out there making it look effortless if you will. That, his overall demeanor on the field & some of those concerns about his motor are still lingering from when he was drafted.

I'll admit, when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast as he can play. but as we all know, looks can be decieving. I watch players like Jacoby on the tube & it looks like this guy isn't running fast at all.... but we know what his 40 time is. Guys like emmitt smith who didn't run blistering 40 times & didn't have animated running styles, but somehow always managed to pull away from guys in the open field are guys i'm refering to.

I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.

Stay tuned. We're editing a collection of them from his 4 games in 2011.

I find the argument that "he looks like he's not giving effort but he's so good it only appears that way" quite amusing. I suppose that will be the response to the 25 plays, or so, I will be highlighting.

HJam72
02-24-2012, 04:39 PM
T-skyss, i don't mean to derail your thread but i've got to get to the bottom of this as this board/city & its fans are the only people i ever hear complain about this dude's effort\ motor since he's been in the NFL.

I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys coaches
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys teammates
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys opponents

that say this guy dogs it every other play & to my knowledge, i haven't seen any of those trademark "dog" plays that we've all seen from the Randy Moss' and Albert Haynesworth's of the league.

The only thing i can come up with is that he's just 1 of those guys that doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast & hard as he can play...sort of out there making it look effortless if you will. That, his overall demeanor on the field & some of those concerns about his motor are still lingering from when he was drafted.

I'll admit, when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast as he can play. but as we all know, looks can be decieving. I watch players like Jacoby on the tube & it looks like this guy isn't running fast at all.... but we know what his 40 time is. Guys like emmitt smith who didn't run blistering 40 times & didn't have animated running styles, but somehow always managed to pull away from guys in the open field are guys i'm refering to.

I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.

OMG, you just opened a can o' worms... :)

dalemurphy
02-25-2012, 01:10 AM
I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.

Ask and ye shall receive:

The "Mario Lacks Consistent Effort and Intensity Video Argument via Youtube" (http://www.texansbullblog.com/letting-mario-video-argument/featured-articles/)

dalemurphy
02-25-2012, 01:14 AM
oops. duplicate.

infantrycak
02-25-2012, 02:25 AM
I am sorry but you could tell by clip one it was nothing but a hack job. There has never been an OLB or DE who you couldn't compile a running out of the play (not that he was technically run out of the play there nor that being run out of a play is low effort) clip on. Heck Duane Brown did it to a lot of great ones last year. Let it go. The Texans are going to pursue Mario and either a deal will get done or it won't. Your preference to get rid of him is crystal clear.

dalemurphy
02-25-2012, 08:08 AM
I am sorry but you could tell by clip one it was nothing but a hack job. There has never been an OLB or DE who you couldn't compile a running out of the play (not that he was technically run out of the play there nor that being run out of a play is low effort) clip on. Heck Duane Brown did it to a lot of great ones last year. Let it go. The Texans are going to pursue Mario and either a deal will get done or it won't. Your preference to get rid of him is crystal clear.


I don't think I have hidden my preference that the Texans get rid of him. I'm glad it is crystal clear.

It's not the running out of the play that is the issue. It is that he stops while the play is going on, that he literally avoids contact on at least half those plays. Watch guys like 99, 94, 98, 56 on those plays and you will see better pursuit, more physicality, and better overall effort through the whistle. It's not as if it was difficult to find those plays. I could have done another 15 if I had wanted a 5 minute clip. I just used these to frame my argument. I realize a lot of you won't agree with it. Now, however, you know what I don't like about him in more detail. Feel free to strongly disagree... I can take it.

gafftop
02-25-2012, 10:06 AM
What is the question. If it is Mario's value to the team at this present time it is zero. Last year Mario's value was maybe a 1st and a 3rd or a couple 2nd round draft choices, now nothing. The Texans can get nothing for Mario at the present time. Now if it is what he is worth 100 % healthy for the full season including playoffs maybe $8-10 million. What would I pay him maybe $6 mill based on the health factor. Just my opinion.

thunderkyss
02-25-2012, 10:51 AM
Ask and ye shall receive:

The "Mario Lacks Consistent Effort and Intensity Video Argument via Youtube" (http://www.texansbullblog.com/letting-mario-video-argument/featured-articles/)

dale, I'm going to have to apologize. I was wrong. You have exposed something I did not want to admit.

Your hatred of Mario Williams knows no bounds. I thought you honestly believed what you were saying. That your analysis of his play brought you to the conclusion you have shared with us (often).

But now, now I see that your opinion of Mario has changed the way you watch the game.

Instead of ever arguing the point with you again.... to save me from ever having to insult someone I used to enjoy sharing my time here on TT.com with... I'm just going to bow out.

What will be will be. Hopefully in the near future, we can find our selves on the same side of an arguement once again.

mattieuk
02-25-2012, 12:45 PM
For me Mario is the most awkward FA signing we've ever had to deal with. You have a guy that has lead the team in sacks may times, was the first 'that guy' to hit the highlights reel from a Texans defense and who hasn't had the blessing of playing in a great defense year after year.

That said, you've also got the guy who has suffered a couple of injuries, will command huge money on the free market and is playing in a defense in the ascendancy with lots of names starting to break through.

For me, I don't want to over pay for Mario, and in my opinion, we shouldn't be entertaining paying him over $11-$12 million, as a rule of thumb figure (I admit here, I'm barely even a novice at cap knowledge - that said with the changes coming out of the CBA, I imagine only a few will be fully versed in what to expect at the moment). I say that, because looking at where the rest of the team are, that is what his value is to the team.

The idea of matching what other teams would pay for him does not sit well with me. Other teams are likely trying to pickup a guy to build a defense around - and there likely won't be any suitors who are Superbowl challenging ready. Mario (along with DeMeco) used to be our defense - and now he is 'just' a key part of it.

If Mario want to stay in Houston, now that a Championship contending team is in town, he will likely have to take a little less than another team will give him. For me, that is just how it is going to have to be.

The Mario deal for me is going to be circumstantial. If Foster and Mario get together, and both decide to take a little less money, in order to boost their chances of winning a ring, and building a perennial contender in Houston - that's brilliant. Two years ago, this was an easy decision - Mario would be resigned, whatever the cost - but today is a different story entirely.

kwayshauntay
02-25-2012, 04:44 PM
Over the years I've noticed that anytime there's a pile or a scrum, Mario is usually standing over the pile, watching, arriving casually (fashionably?) late, instead of being in on the pile, getting down and dirty.

Looks like I'm not the only one to notice...

badboy
02-25-2012, 04:56 PM
Over the years I've noticed that anytime there's a pile or a scrum, Mario is usually standing over the pile, watching, arriving casually (fashionably?) late, instead of being in on the pile, getting down and dirty.

Looks like I'm not the only one to notice...

He's on ball watch in case of a fumble. :kitten:

DocBar
02-25-2012, 05:38 PM
He's on ball watch in case of a fumble. :kitten:um...I AM MAN!!! HEAR ME ROAR!!!meow?

Lucky
02-26-2012, 09:38 AM
Over the years I've noticed that anytime there's a pile or a scrum, Mario is usually standing over the pile, watching, arriving casually (fashionably?) late, instead of being in on the pile, getting down and dirty.

Looks like I'm not the only one to notice...

I wonder who* caused those fumbles?

*Mario is the Texans all-time leader in forced fumbles.

Mr teX
02-26-2012, 12:55 PM
Ask and ye shall receive:

The "Mario Lacks Consistent Effort and Intensity Video Argument via Youtube" (http://www.texansbullblog.com/letting-mario-video-argument/featured-articles/)

Lol, if this is all you could come up with, your hatred for this dude knows no bounds. Like i said, his "dogging" it is no worse than 95% of the league....Here are a few nuggets for you.

Here are 2 different sets of videos from 2010 (in Wade's defense) & in 2011 where Demarcus Ware, the best pass rusher in the game, is doing many of the same things you're trying to knock Mario for; running himself out of plays, not giving full effort chasing guys down, avoiding contact etc...

http://bloggingthebeast.com/2011/11/05/video-breakdown-the-eagles-exploited-demarcus-ware-in-the-run-game/

Here is philly TE Brent Celek basically calling out dwight freeney for quitting in a game..

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/eagles-te-brent-celek-dwight-freeney-was-ready-to-give-up-on-t/


Check out Jared Allens great effort & intensity at the 2.18 - 2.30 mark of this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824baee4/Broncos-vs-Vikings-highlights

& my personal favorite...check out James Harrison's hustle at the 1.44 mark when Arian broke the long run late in the game...dude just completely gives up....also note how Lamarr Woodley was completely out of position which allowed for Foster to bend it back in the 1st place...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d822c9a63/GameDay-Steelers-vs-Texans-highlights


You don't have a clue & if you cared to pay attention to other players at other positions around the league you'd notice that every last single player in the league has these type of plays.

DocBar
02-26-2012, 03:23 PM
Lol, if this is all you could come up with, your hatred for this dude knows no bounds. Like i said, his "dogging" it is no worse than 95% of the league....Here are a few nuggets for you.

Here are 2 different sets of videos from 2010 (in Wade's defense) & in 2011 where Demarcus Ware, the best pass rusher in the game, is doing many of the same things you're trying to knock Mario for; running himself out of plays, not giving full effort chasing guys down, avoiding contact etc...

http://bloggingthebeast.com/2011/11/05/video-breakdown-the-eagles-exploited-demarcus-ware-in-the-run-game/

Here is philly TE Brent Celek basically calling out dwight freeney for quitting in a game..

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/eagles-te-brent-celek-dwight-freeney-was-ready-to-give-up-on-t/


Check out Jared Allens great effort & intensity at the 2.18 - 2.30 mark of this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824baee4/Broncos-vs-Vikings-highlights

& my personal favorite...check out James Harrison's hustle at the 1.44 mark when Arian broke the long run late in the game...dude just completely gives up....also note how Lamarr Woodley was completely out of position which allowed for Foster to bend it back in the 1st place...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d822c9a63/GameDay-Steelers-vs-Texans-highlights


You don't have a clue & if you cared to pay attention to other players at other positions around the league you'd notice that every last single player in the league has these type of plays.One major difference is that Allen and Ware have had great, fantastic, stupendous seasons. Mario? Not so much.
Ware (http://www.nfl.com/player/demarcusware/2506349/profile)
Freeney (http://www.nfl.com/player/dwightfreeney/2505016/profile)
Allen (http://www.nfl.com/player/jaredallen/2505940/profile)
Peppers (http://www.nfl.com/player/juliuspeppers/2505010/profile)
Williams (http://www.nfl.com/player/mariowilliams/2495982/profile)
Comparing Mario to Jared Allen or Demarcus Ware is just proving Dale Murphy's point. I threw peppers into the mix since MW's next contract will likely be based off of it. Peppers shows up all over the stat board. Mario? Not so much.
Sacks in 1st 6 seasons:
MW:53 to go with 0 INT's and 11 FF's.
Freeney:71 to go with 0 INT's and 31 FF's.
Ware:80 to go with 1 INT and 25 FF's.
Allen:72 to go with 2 INT's and 21 FF's.
Peppers:56 to go with 4 INT's and 20 FF's.
:thinking:

DocBar
02-26-2012, 03:29 PM
I wonder who* caused those fumbles?

*Mario is the Texans all-time leader in forced fumbles.That's not saying a whole lot, Lucky.

dalemurphy
02-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Lol, if this is all you could come up with, your hatred for this dude knows no bounds. Like i said, his "dogging" it is no worse than 95% of the league....Here are a few nuggets for you.

Here are 2 different sets of videos from 2010 (in Wade's defense) & in 2011 where Demarcus Ware, the best pass rusher in the game, is doing many of the same things you're trying to knock Mario for; running himself out of plays, not giving full effort chasing guys down, avoiding contact etc...

http://bloggingthebeast.com/2011/11/05/video-breakdown-the-eagles-exploited-demarcus-ware-in-the-run-game/

Here is philly TE Brent Celek basically calling out dwight freeney for quitting in a game..

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/eagles-te-brent-celek-dwight-freeney-was-ready-to-give-up-on-t/


Check out Jared Allens great effort & intensity at the 2.18 - 2.30 mark of this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824baee4/Broncos-vs-Vikings-highlights

& my personal favorite...check out James Harrison's hustle at the 1.44 mark when Arian broke the long run late in the game...dude just completely gives up....also note how Lamarr Woodley was completely out of position which allowed for Foster to bend it back in the 1st place...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d822c9a63/GameDay-Steelers-vs-Texans-highlights


You don't have a clue & if you cared to pay attention to other players at other positions around the league you'd notice that every last single player in the league has these type of plays.


A few things:

Despite the reality that Demarcus Ware is vastly more productive than Mario, I wouldn't pay him a contract that the market would demand either.

Regarding Freeney: I think he was struggling through motivation... learning to play in the midst of his team being a loser. Normally, he is a 100% effort guy.

** All the Mario video I selected is at a point in time when the game is still very much in doubt. And, there were many other plays to highlight. Mario's effort after the bye in 2010 was horrible throughout the season until he ended it on the IR. I'm not incuding videos of those games because he was trying to play injured. Considering I only had a catalog of three games from this year (we don't have the INDY game recorded), that is a lot of plays.

I realize all players, for one reason or another, don't go 100% every play of their careers. However, Mario's motor idles lower than many. As I've said, that doesn't make him a bad player. However, it also, IMO, precludes him from being the kind of leader of a defense that good teams should want.

thunderkyss
02-26-2012, 04:52 PM
I realize all players, for one reason or another, don't go 100% every play of their careers. However, Mario's motor idles lower than many. As I've said, that doesn't make him a bad player. However, it also, IMO, precludes him from being the kind of leader of a defense that good teams should want.

It makes absolutely no sense that Wade would want a player like that, much less want to pay him the amount of money that would make him the focal point of our pass rush.

Why can't Wade see what you see, it should be obvious. If he dogs it so much during a game, I can't imagine what he's like in practice.

DocBar
02-26-2012, 05:07 PM
It makes absolutely no sense that Wade would want a player like that, much less want to pay him the amount of money that would make him the focal point of our pass rush.

Why can't Wade see what you see, it should be obvious. If he dogs it so much during a game, I can't imagine what he's like in practice.How do you know Wade, or anybody with the Texan's FO, truly wants Mario and isn't just saying the PC things that are expected of them? How do you know that Mario really does want to stay with the Texans and isn't just doing the same? Since we have a little tape to view of MW at WOLB, I'm thinking Wade probably wants him back...if the price is right, but not at any cost. For that matter, I haven't seen anyone say they don't want Mario back period. A lot of people just don't want to see the team overpay to keep him and a lot of those people, myself included, just don;t see it as being realistic to bring him back.
Looking at the stats I posted a bit earlier, Mario just isn't worth paying more than $10M a year-ish. Whether he has a high motor, low motor or no motor, he hasn't produced at the same level as truly elite passrushers in this league have.

dalemurphy
02-26-2012, 05:16 PM
It makes absolutely no sense that Wade would want a player like that, much less want to pay him the amount of money that would make him the focal point of our pass rush.

Why can't Wade see what you see, it should be obvious. If he dogs it so much during a game, I can't imagine what he's like in practice.

What do you expect them to say? "We think Mario is overrated and we wouldn't pay him a bag of rusty nails."? It is in the Texans' best interest to be respectful of their players coming and going. The way they treat all players is a major reason why Houston has become an attractive destination. Kubiak and Smith will avoid criticizing Mario regardless of the backlash after they let him go. It is how they operate. If I'm wrong, the Texans will bring Mario back. I don't think I'm wrong. I don't think the Texans have any intention to pay Mario anywhere near his market value.

Mr teX
02-26-2012, 05:34 PM
A few things:

Despite the reality that Demarcus Ware is vastly more productive than Mario, I wouldn't pay him a contract that the market would demand either.


Regarding Freeney: I think he was struggling through motivation... learning to play in the midst of his team being a loser. Normally, he is a 100% effort guy.

** All the Mario video I selected is at a point in time when the game is still very much in doubt. And, there were many other plays to highlight. Mario's effort after the bye in 2010 was horrible throughout the season until he ended it on the IR. I'm not incuding videos of those games because he was trying to play injured. Considering I only had a catalog of three games from this year (we don't have the INDY game recorded), that is a lot of plays.


I realize all players, for one reason or another, don't go 100% every play of their careers. However, Mario's motor idles lower than many. As I've said, that doesn't make him a bad player. However, it also, IMO, precludes him from being the kind of leader of a defense that good teams should want.

Lol... you're just hoping from 1 foot to the next.....every time your theories are confronted head on with evidence to the contrary, you go to another concocted overstated point...face it dude, the facts don't back up your opnion no matter how much spin you try to use......Its pathetic.

Funny how you make excuses for Dwight Freeney. "its ok that he gave up b/c his team is normally good..he gave up b/c his team sucks.." Well guess what...Mario's teams & defenses have always sucked since he's been in the league!!!! You try to present your points as if they can stand alone & they can't.

i wont waste anymore time on you or anyone else with agendas.

dalemurphy
02-26-2012, 05:45 PM
Lol... you're just hoping from 1 foot to the next.....every time your theories are confronted head on with evidence to the contrary, you go to another concocted overstated point...face it dude, the facts don't back up your opnion no matter how much spin you try to use......Its pathetic.

i wont waste anymore time on you or anyone else with agendas.


My only agenda is wanting the Texans to be very good for a long time. As I have said many times, I'm willing to own the possibility that some of my conclusions are incorrect. But, I can't stand it when people accuse me of an alterior motive simply because I disagree with them.

I show video evidence of a dozen plays (from September of 2011) illustrating my perception that Mario's effort isn't good enough to command the money he will be asking for. I could've shown more. Your response is to show a player calling out Freeney in the midst of a 2-14 season, a play from James Harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket, and a play or two from Ware and Jared Allen where they aren't dominating.... Somehow, that is supposed to settle all arguments about Mario's level of consistent effort? Umm, sorry that I disagree with you but it doesn't make me a closet Vince Young lunatic.

Mr teX
02-26-2012, 06:19 PM
My only agenda is wanting the Texans to be very good for a long time. As I have said many times, I'm willing to own the possibility that some of my conclusions are incorrect. But, I can't stand it when people accuse me of an alterior motive simply because I disagree with them.

I show video evidence of a dozen plays (from September of 2011) illustrating my perception that Mario's effort isn't good enough to command the money he will be asking for. I could've shown more. Your response is to show a player calling out Freeney in the midst of a 2-14 season, a play from James Harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket, and a play or two from Ware and Jared Allen where they aren't dominating.... Somehow, that is supposed to settle all arguments about Mario's level of consistent effort? Umm, sorry that I disagree with you but it doesn't make me a closet Vince Young lunatic.

1st of all, it was more than 1 or 2 plays regarding Ware..somebody else compiled that..not me. Regardless,

like you, i could've shown more clips of those guys doing the exact same things that you seemed to think is some tell-tell about mario. I don't have access to film & all that crap..what i posted was just something i found on the internet in 10-15 minutes through game highlights. But up until a few posts ago, you seemed to want to ignore the fact that other players who are better or at least comparable to Mario do the exact same crap.

Look at this very post i quoted..."james harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket.." The post above this one talking about dwight freeney. Basically saying "his team sucked that's why." well guess what Mario's teams have always sucked..guess that's on him too then huh? a few posts before this in this thread or the other going you presented some stat about yards given up with mario vs. without him...presenting it as if Mario was the guy holding the defense back all along....completely ignoring other major factors that also contributed to your stat. It's transparent & as i said in the previous post, pathetic. You're willing to make excuses for the above mentioned guys but are unwilling to give credit to mario for playing through injuries calling him injury prone or the fact that he's been at a disadvantage since he came into the league having been led by & playing with guys on defense 1/2 of which probably aren't even in the league anymore or at base minimum have been demoted.

You want people to not think you don't have agenda, present all factors..not just those that seemingly back up your argument.


Intelligent and honest discussion can't take place when 1 party isn't willing to acknowledge all things involved....& you have proven over...& over....& over that you clearly aren't willing to do that. what else is one to think when you keep doing this?

DocBar
02-26-2012, 06:34 PM
1st of all, it was more than 1 or 2 plays regarding Ware..somebody else compiled that..not me. Regardless,

like you, i could've shown more clips of those guys doing the exact same things that you seemed to think is some tell-tell about mario. I don't have access to film & all that crap..what i posted was just something i found on the internet in 10-15 minutes through game highlights. But up until a few posts ago, you seemed to want to ignore the fact that other players who are better or at least comparable to Mario do the exact same crap.

Look at this very post i quoted..."james harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket.." The post above this one talking about dwight freeney. Basically saying "his team sucked that's why." well guess what Mario's teams have always sucked..guess that's on him too then huh? a few posts before this in this thread or the other going you presented some stat about yards given up with mario vs. without him...presenting it as if Mario was the guy holding the defense back all along....completely ignoring other major factors that also contributed to your stat. It's transparent & as i said in the previous post, pathetic. You're willing to make excuses for the above mentioned guys but are unwilling to give credit to mario for playing through injuries calling him injury prone or the fact that he's been at a disadvantage since he came into the league having been led by & playing with guys on defense 1/2 of which probably aren't even in the league anymore or at base minimum have been demoted.

You want people to not think you don't have agenda, present all factors..not just those that seemingly back up your argument.


Intelligent and honest discussion can't take place when 1 party isn't willing to acknowledge all things involved....& you have proven over...& over....& over that you clearly aren't willing to do that. what else is one to think when you keep doing this?If MW had anywhere near the stats that Ware or Allen have, no one would care if he took some plays off.
BTW, wouldn't MW continually playing through injuries be a pretty good indicator that he's injury prone? That honest argument goes both ways...

Carr Bombed
02-26-2012, 06:45 PM
I'm also in the camp that Mario Williams has a highly questionable motor.. When we stuck players like Antonio Smith, Cushing, Barwin, and J.J. Watt around him it only further illustrated how much he dogs it. The guy doesn't dominate a game the way a player with his ability should and that's why some people aren't comfortable with blowing all of our cap space on him. It's not hate... it's just a preference to spend the money elsewhere.

Mr teX
02-26-2012, 06:53 PM
If MW had anywhere near the stats that Ware or Allen have, no one would care if he took some plays off.
BTW, wouldn't MW continually playing through injuries be a pretty good indicator that he's injury prone? That honest argument goes both ways...

You could spin it that way yes...but as i & others have said in other posts, everyone is playing through injuries at some point throughout the season. I've heard Eric Winston allude to this on 610 a few times..the nature of the game dictates that you'll be beat up by midseason.

James Harrision has been dealing with back issues for 2 straight years now...he still plays though...If you combine what happened to him last year with the eye socket..does that then make him injury prone?

We all know about dwight freeney & how he's always nicked up. Injuries basically made him a non factor in the SB....he still played though.

It seems that ben rothlisberger these days is dealing with something...he still plays though.

Jeremy Maclin...

So if you take this into account, then the question becomes at what point do you begin to cross the line from a person just not being 100% to them being injury prone if everyone in the league is nicked up at 1 point or another in the season?.. & the only logical answer to that question is when they have to miss games. & so far, 2011 is the only year Mario has missed significant time due to an injury. So imo, you can't even really call him that.

DocBar
02-26-2012, 07:18 PM
You could spin it that way yes...but as i & others have said in other posts, everyone is playing through injuries at some point throughout the season. I've heard Eric Winston allude to this on 610 a few times..the nature of the game dictates that you'll be beat up by midseason.

James Harrision has been dealing with back issues for 2 straight years now...he still plays though...If you combine what happened to him last year with the eye socket..does that then make him injury prone?

We all know about dwight freeney & how he's always nicked up. Injuries basically made him a non factor in the SB....he still played though.

It seems that ben rothlisberger these days is dealing with something...he still plays though.

Jeremy Maclin...

So if you take this into account, then the question becomes at what point do you begin to cross the line from a person just not being 100% to them being injury prone if everyone in the league is nicked up at 1 point or another in the season?.. & the only logical answer to that question is when they have to miss games. & so far, 2011 is the only year Mario has missed significant time due to an injury. So imo, you can't even really call him that.Yes, every player gets nicked up during the season, but sports hernias, plantar fasciitis, groin injuries and, obviously, a torn pec are very performance limiting injuries. I've never questioned MW's toughness but was he really helping the team by playing through these injuries? Considering what we had around him, except for last season, I really don't know.
If MW's injuries aren't negatively impacting his game, then it must be an effort problem. Whatever the reason, he simply doesn't have the numbers
that the truly elite passrushers have. By all appearances, he has the talent, but through 6 seasons, he's not even close stats-wise. Stats, especially at a premium position like his, do matter.

Mr teX
02-26-2012, 08:14 PM
Yes, every player gets nicked up during the season, but sports hernias, plantar fasciitis, groin injuries and, obviously, a torn pec are very performance limiting injuries. I've never questioned MW's toughness but was he really helping the team by playing through these injuries? Considering what we had around him, except for last season, I really don't know.
If MW's injuries aren't negatively impacting his game, then it must be an effort problem. Whatever the reason, he simply doesn't have the numbers
that the truly elite passrushers have. By all appearances, he has the talent, but through 6 seasons, he's not even close stats-wise. Stats, especially at a premium position like his, do matter.


Or... coaching & talent around him

Demarcus Ware has really been the only 1 man wrecking crew..& even then you can still say that he had wade calling the shots for the majority of his career & a offense that can/could put up points.

jared Allen had statistically 2 of his best seasons playing alongside the williams boys & edwards. He also had Favre & a decent offense. It's not coincidental that they were a top 10 defense those years nearly going to the SB...if not for Favre. This year without all that he still thrived but their defense was trash...so did he really make that much of a difference? Is he really worth it?

Dwight Freeney has never known life without Robert Mathis opposite of him & peyton manning & the offense racing out to 21 pt leads for him; thereby enabling him to pin his ears back......when he is in there on obvious passing situations.

Woodley...Dick Lebeau calling the shots with Harrison opposite him... with Hampton, Kiesel anchoring down the middle...Polamalu roaming secondary...dude had 2 different DPOY's on his team.

Mario? Lets see

Richard Smith....trash
Frank Bush....trash

Okoye
Travis Johnson
Jeff Zgonnina
Tim Bulman
thomas (DE from baltimore forget his name)
mark anderson

David Carr on offense for 1 year.

you get the picture.


Look, i'm not saying that we should blow our load on him...all i'm saying is that you can't look at his situation & compare it to other players & say its apples to apples. Bernard pollard on our defense in 2010.......disaster...with the ravens in 2011 with Lewis & Reed & Hgnata, he looked decent. You can't look at this stuff in a vacuum.

dalemurphy
02-26-2012, 08:33 PM
1st of all, it was more than 1 or 2 plays regarding Ware..somebody else compiled that..not me. Regardless,

like you, i could've shown more clips of those guys doing the exact same things that you seemed to think is some tell-tell about mario. I don't have access to film & all that crap..what i posted was just something i found on the internet in 10-15 minutes through game highlights. But up until a few posts ago, you seemed to want to ignore the fact that other players who are better or at least comparable to Mario do the exact same crap.

Look at this very post i quoted..."james harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket.." The post above this one talking about dwight freeney. Basically saying "his team sucked that's why." well guess what Mario's teams have always sucked..guess that's on him too then huh? a few posts before this in this thread or the other going you presented some stat about yards given up with mario vs. without him...presenting it as if Mario was the guy holding the defense back all along....completely ignoring other major factors that also contributed to your stat. It's transparent & as i said in the previous post, pathetic. You're willing to make excuses for the above mentioned guys but are unwilling to give credit to mario for playing through injuries calling him injury prone or the fact that he's been at a disadvantage since he came into the league having been led by & playing with guys on defense 1/2 of which probably aren't even in the league anymore or at base minimum have been demoted.

You want people to not think you don't have agenda, present all factors..not just those that seemingly back up your argument.


Intelligent and honest discussion can't take place when 1 party isn't willing to acknowledge all things involved....& you have proven over...& over....& over that you clearly aren't willing to do that. what else is one to think when you keep doing this?


Harrison had just broken his eye socket an hour earlier and would be sidelined for weeks after that game.

I wasn't defending Freeney. I'm arguing that Freeney's effort issues are different than Mario's. Freeney was learning to play for a loser. I'm not judging it one way or another. Mario was giving mediocre effort when the Texans were 9-7 in 2009, after they began 2010 with a 4-2 record, and for most of the first month of their first playoff season. His two best seasons have been on mediocre to bad teams. Still, excluding 2006, Mario has always been part of a team with a good offense.

By the way, when has Jared Allen had great coaching? This year who were all the great players he played with while collecting 22 sacks?

Jared Allen, by the way, has had more sacks than Mario Williams every single season of Mario's career... and, 30+ more sacks than Mario over that period of time. He also has 5 more interceptions and dozen more forced fumbles. He is in the middle of a 6 year and $73 million contract which Mario will probably eclipse. How nuts is that? And, to my main point, how many championships has Allen's greatness led KC and Minnesota to?

Mr teX
02-26-2012, 08:41 PM
Harrison had just broken his eye socket an hour earlier and would be sidelined for weeks after that game.

I wasn't defending Freeney. I'm arguing that Freeney's effort issues are different than Mario's. Freeney was learning to play for a loser. I'm not judging it one way or another. Mario was giving mediocre effort when the Texans were 9-7 in 2009, after they began 2010 with a 4-2 record, and for most of the first month of their first playoff season. His two best seasons have been on mediocre to bad teams. Still, excluding 2006, Mario has always been part of a team with a good offense.

By the way, when has Jared Allen had great coaching? This year who were all the great players he played with while collecting 22 sacks?

Jared Allen, by the way, has had more sacks than Mario Williams every single season of Mario's career... and, 30+ more sacks than Mario over that period of time. He also has 5 more interceptions and dozen more forced fumbles. He is in the middle of a 6 year and $73 million contract which Mario will probably eclipse. How nuts is that? And, to my main point, how many championships has Allen's greatness led KC and Minnesota to?


leslie frazier was a highly regarded DC before he took over as HC...aside from that Allen's a man...still doesn't change what is though.

lol....now there's a difference for when guys are supposed to be giving maximum effort now? C'mon..

sorry buddy, you dont amass 12 & 14 sack seasons by having a motor that doesn't run on full throttle.

and up until last year 1st overall picks were coming into the league with 50 mil guaranteed what's your point? you know as well as i do that contracts are forever going up & depending on what year you're up in FA, & what other players that are available that plays your position you could really clean up....this is why your earlier proposed deal with conner barwin was even more absurd.

dalemurphy
02-26-2012, 09:34 PM
sorry buddy, you dont amass 12 & 14 sack seasons by having a motor that doesn't run on full throttle.

.

Comforting to know that Mario used to play with a motor in 2007 and 2008. I'm not sure what that has to do with 2012 though.