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leebigeztx
03-05-2012, 12:07 PM
I'm just not understanding how this is even possible. It just doesn't add up unless one of our players is going to count $16M+ against the cap in 2012.

I don't have a link,but I will give you my understanding. The texans had 4+m of cap space. The new league year hasn't started yet so all of the old salaries are still on the books. To do extensions or offers, you have to create room. When pat kirwan made the deal to keep mario, he created space for this years salaries. The foster deal falls in line with what kirwan laid out to pay mario,meyers,and foster.

amazing80
03-05-2012, 12:09 PM
I don't have a link,but I will give you my understanding. The texans had 4+m of cap space. The new league year hasn't started yet so all of the old salaries are still on the books. To do extensions or offers, you have to create room. When pat kirwan made the deal to keep mario, he created space for this years salaries. The foster deal falls in line with what kirwan laid out to pay mario,meyers,and foster.

This, the more I think about it the more true this is. I think they are saying what we CURRENTLY have on the books, but the new year has not started so the salaries are still on the books for a few more days....

badboy
03-05-2012, 12:12 PM
Does not JJ's, Leinerts cap hit + Foster 2011 salary almost = Foster new first year deal? If so, why is Mario necessarily gone?

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 12:19 PM
I don't have a link,but I will give you my understanding. The texans had 4+m of cap space. The new league year hasn't started yet so all of the old salaries are still on the books. To do extensions or offers, you have to create room. When pat kirwan made the deal to keep mario, he created space for this years salaries. The foster deal falls in line with what kirwan laid out to pay mario,meyers,and foster.

That makes sense. The article I quoted said our 2012 obligations of $118.9M, that's what I don't understand.

b0ng
03-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Well your first sentence is wrong. I never said Mario would have no impact. I said his signing wouldn't significantly change anything, he would have a impact, but in the grand scheme, not much would change. Let's look at the season where the Texans were tops in the NFL in offense, but had a craptastic defense... If we added top offensive talent to that team, would that have put us over the top? No it wouldn't and adding Mario to a team that was 6th in the league in yards allowed and 11th in points scored is not going to catapult them to the playoffs when they can't put points on the board... Just like adding top offensive talent wouldn't of put us in the playoffs when we couldn't keep points off the board.


So you're going to try to prove your point by taking a different team from a different year and then give it a hypothetical "if". An "if" that nobody could conceivably come to a conclusion proven by evidence. And this comparison will somehow be proven and. . .

Who are you to say what will catapult a team into the playoffs? Every year there are teams in the wildcards and 4 seeds that have really good defenses with mediocre to terrible offenses. Saying that "nothing would change" is a pretty tough claim to prove seeing as how stuff changes in the NFL constantly, especially from year to year. The Jags may not have season ending injuries to their entire secondary near the end of the year in 2012. There's a whole lot that could change, and upgrading a position on the defense as significant as "primary pass rusher" from Jeremy Mincey to Mario Williams could easily net the Jaguars enough bounces of the football going their way to double their win total from last year. That's not out of this world, or some kind of shocking crackpot idea. That crap happens all the time in the NFL where teams with major deficiencies along one side of the ball somehow prop themselves up for a year however improbably it may be.

And yeah if Blaine Gabbert continues to suck it'll be hard for them to win games, but it would not be completely out of the question for a defense like that to carry them to .500.

Big Lou
03-05-2012, 12:22 PM
a mario supporter
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/18601/free-agent-hype-chronicles-mario-williams

I believe he is doing that for every FA as if he were thier agent trying to sell a team on a FA.

fiasco west
03-05-2012, 12:35 PM
Now i'm just hoping the team resigns him to see some guys head flip around here.

Big Lou
03-05-2012, 12:38 PM
No serious discussions between the Texans and Mario Williams yet. (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/no-serious-discussions-between-texans-mario-williams/)

The Peyton talk is just killing me. When you read articles like this it just underlines how little you can depend on "No serious descussion netween the Texans and Mario Williams", because they seem to pull stuff out of thier ass.

Why would Houston add a cap heavy Peyton Manning that may never play another down of football ever (See Tony B. circa 2002) and doesn't remotely fit in what we do. Our offense is a system offense, we don't sign big time FA's, especially at the QB position, we draft. Peyton and Gary don't mix period, will never happen and any talk of it means that the writer has very little knowledge or understanding of the Texans. Fans may pine for Manning, but thats all emotion and no fact, so I can understand it from fans.

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 12:44 PM
EDIT: From PFT -- No serious discussions with Mario Williams (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/no-serious-discussions-between-texans-mario-williams/)

Have to think that puts an end to it ..... ?

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 01:17 PM
Glad to see the Texans know their prioritites.
1.Foster Done
2. Myers
3.

Mario is not on the list because the Texans can't realistically expect to get a decision from him at this time.

Glad to see the Texans acting this year like they did last with Joseph and Manning not waiting for Aso.

Only way Texans resign Mario is if after testing FA Mario finds he is not highly sought after after all. I think someone will give him crazy money though.

From this signing I think that still puts Mario as our top priority. Foster got a 5 year $43.5M contract with $20.75M guaranteed. He makes $18M in his 1st season and $30M total in the first 3 seasons. Relax. His cap number is likely not $18M for 2012. The $18M is likely mostly signing bonus which is prorates over the 5 year contract. I'm thinking something like $15M SB + $3M base for 2012. So his cap hit might be around $6M.

This is good news for Mario (and Myers). We have 17 FA salaries coming off the books on March 13th (only 12 roster spots because 5 salaries were added as IR replacements). One of those salaries is Mario's $18 million. One of those is Chris Myer's salary. He had a 4 year $11 million contract. With Foster only accounting for $6M of that in 2012, we can give $10M of it to Mario and the remaining $2M we can add to whatever Myers has coming off the books from last year. See we just took care of our top 3 priorities with Mario Williams' salary from 2011. The rest of our FA's will not cost nearly as much (and we have 15 salaries to account for 9 other roster spots). Keep in mind we are going to draft some rookies to fill some roster spots. Oh yeah and we have three $1.5 contract exceptions (contracts that won't count against the salary cap). So we essentially have 15 salaries to cover 6 roster spots.

So I expect for us to go hard in negotiations over the next week and try to nab those 2 before FA begins March 13th.

Marcus
03-05-2012, 01:27 PM
Now i'm just hoping the team resigns him to see some guys head flip around here.

Me too! :D

I hope they franchise him, so I can see who'll be at the head of the line jumping out of a window.

HOU-TEX
03-05-2012, 01:41 PM
Dallas just tagged Anthony Spencer. That should lessen their chances on going for Mario, correct?

ThaShark316
03-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Dallas just tagged Anthony Spencer. That should lessen their chances on going for Mario, correct?

Unless they deal him, I would think so. That said, the 'Boys have a lot of cap space.

HOU-TEX
03-05-2012, 01:53 PM
Unless they deal him, I would think so. That said, the 'Boys have a lot of cap space.

Really? I was under the impression they were up against it too

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 01:55 PM
Really? I was under the impression they were up against it too

They have a lot of space if you ignore the 20 million in dead money from cutting a bunch of players last year... Their payroll makes it look like they have more money to work with than they do. Tagging Spencer likely put them up against the cap.

gafftop
03-05-2012, 02:22 PM
From this signing I think that still puts Mario as our top priority. Foster got a 5 year $43.5M contract with $20.75M guaranteed. He makes $18M in his 1st season and $30M total in the first 3 seasons. Relax. His cap number is likely not $18M for 2012. The $18M is likely mostly signing bonus which is prorates over the 5 year contract. I'm thinking something like $15M SB + $3M base for 2012. So his cap hit might be around $6M.

This is good news for Mario (and Myers). We have 17 FA salaries coming off the books on March 13th (only 12 roster spots because 5 salaries were added as IR replacements). One of those salaries is Mario's $18 million. One of those is Chris Myer's salary. He had a 4 year $11 million contract. With Foster only accounting for $6M of that in 2012, we can give $10M of it to Mario and the remaining $2M we can add to whatever Myers has coming off the books from last year. See we just took care of our top 3 priorities with Mario Williams' salary from 2012. The rest of our FA's will not cost nearly as much (and we have 15 salaries to account for 9 other roster spots). Keep in mind we are going to draft some rookies to fill some roster spots.

So I expect for us to go hard in negotiations over the next week and try to nab those 2 before FA begins March 13th.

I do agree they go hard at Myers and probably some of the lesser FA. I don't see us going for Mario. I think that door has closed. Use some of that money for other FAs that will become available. The FO did a great job getting Foster without using the tag. They preserved the chemistry. I think they finally see the writing on the wall with Mario. Again as I stated a year ago they may have seen the light back then but were unable to work anything out. I bet now they wished they had done more to try and move Mario before last year.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 02:42 PM
This is good news for Mario (and Myers). We have 17 FA salaries coming off the books on March 13th (only 12 roster spots because 5 salaries were added as IR replacements). One of those salaries is Mario's $18 million. One of those is Chris Myer's salary. He had a 4 year $11 million contract. With Foster only accounting for $6M of that in 2012, we can give $10M of it to Mario and the remaining $2M we can add to whatever Myers has coming off the books from last year. See we just took care of our top 3 priorities with Mario Williams' salary from 2011. The rest of our FA's will not cost nearly as much (and we have 15 salaries to account for 9 other roster spots). Keep in mind we are going to draft some rookies to fill some roster spots. Oh yeah and we have three $1.5 contract exceptions (contracts that won't count against the salary cap). So we essentially have 15 salaries to cover 6 roster spots.


i wouldnt get too bogged down with the salaries. per the PFT article, the texans have been projected to used up 118.9m in cap space BEFORE arians deal. that would indicate mario & myers are also not included in this. so it would seem like we're prob over by about 5m at this point

then we can restructure/cut some guys next week and free up someweher between 15-20m max so you're looking at resigning myers, mario, briesel, demps etc etc plus draft picks with 10-15m mill in cap space which seems pretty hard

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 04:14 PM
i wouldnt get too bogged down with the salaries. per the PFT article, the texans have been projected to used up 118.9m in cap space BEFORE arians deal. that would indicate mario & myers are also not included in this. so it would seem like we're prob over by about 5m at this point

then we can restructure/cut some guys next week and free up someweher between 15-20m max so you're looking at resigning myers, mario, briesel, demps etc etc plus draft picks with 10-15m mill in cap space which seems pretty hard

NO IT DOESN'T.

How many times do I have to repeat FACTS to get people to see why that is not likely the case?

2011 League Year DOES NOT end until March 13th.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? If we are snug against the cap it is because the 2012 League Year has not begun yet and our FA (17 total) are still under contract until then.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude (so I apologize in advance). It just seems that I have been repeating this the whole offseason.

BTW of those 17 FAs we ONLY have 12 roster spots. If you think the snug under the cap is our status WITHOUT those 17 FAs then we are going to have hell trying to fit Arian's new contract on the cap let alone find space for the other 11 roster spots.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 04:45 PM
NO IT DOESN'T.

How many times do I have to repeat FACTS.

2011 League Year DOES NOT end until March 13th.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? If we are snug against the cap it is because the 2012 League Year has not begun yet and our FA (17 total) are still under contract until then.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude (so I apologize in advance). It just seems that I have been repeating this the whole offseason.

BTW of those 17 FAs we ONLY have 12 roster spots. If you think the snug under the cap is our status WITHOUT those 17 FAs then we are going to have hell trying to fit Arian's new contract on the cap let alone find space for the other 11 roster spots.

listen i get the cap but i was just READING the article.. now the article may be possibly inaccurate but i am interpreting it correctly


As of last Tuesday, the Texans had $118.9 in 2012 salary-cap commitments, which puts them close to the expected ceiling of $120 million or so. Foster wasn’t factored into the “top 51″ calculation, since he wasn’t under contract at the time.

last time i checked foster had a contract in 2011 and none in 2012 yet (as no tender was given to him)

therefore its reasonable to presume PFT have based their figure on 2012 salaries and proration of pre 2012 bonuses etc. therefore if the figure didnt include arian, it obviously doesnt include any of the other FA's like mario and myers either

now il admit their figure seems high as we dont rly have any monster contracts (and do we even have 51 players under contract) and we seem in trouble but we have a fair few guys with pretty good contracts.

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 04:59 PM
listen i get the cap but i was just READING the article.. now the article may be possibly inaccurate but i am interpreting it correctly




last time i checked foster had a contract in 2011 and none in 2012 yet (as no tender was given to him)

therefore its reasonable to presume PFT have based their figure on 2012 salaries and proration of pre 2012 bonuses etc. therefore if the figure didnt include arian, it obviously doesnt include any of the other FA's like mario and myers either

now il admit their figure seems high as we dont rly have any monster contracts (and do we even have 51 players under contract) and we seem in trouble but we have a fair few guys with pretty good contracts.

You know what you make a good point because I actually did not see that in the article. But I think they are wrong because we really do have 17 FAs and Mario Williams really did make $18M last year and we really did have to be UNDER the cap last year. Those really are facts. I do not know where they got there 2012 information from, but I assure you it's wrong. Plus the Texans do not really release most of the contract info, so for a site to claim this is our cap situation minus 17 FA for 2012 is suspect (especially considering no other website that reported that number insisted it was our 2012 committed contracts). There is not way we have 51 players committed RIGHT NOW to the 2012 salary cap when we had 17 FA's going into the offseason (and only sign Foster so far so there's 11 more roster spots).

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 05:04 PM
You know what you make a good point because I actually did not see that in the article. But I think they are wrong because we really do have 17 FAs and Mario Williams really did make $18M last year and we really did have to be UNDER the cap last year. Those really are facts. I do not know where they got there 2012 information from, but I assure you it's wrong. Plus the Texans do not really release most of the contract info, so for a site to claim this is our cap situation minus 17 FA for 2012 is suspect (especially considering no other website that reported that number insisted it was our 2012 committed contracts). There is not way we have 51 players committed RIGHT NOW to the 2012 salary cap when we had 17 FA's going into the offseason (and only sign Foster so far so there's 11 more roster spots).

Salaries do go up each year, we know the Texans restructured several players, and there could have been some bonuses and incentives met for making the playoffs or individual performance. The Chiefs GM said they had to pay 25 million in incentives for the 2011 year after having an 7-9 team that didn't make the playoffs. It wouldn't surprise me if the Texans had to pay some guys incentives for the playoff win, or winning the division, or something else. If a crappy team like the Chiefs has to pay out that much, we may have a similar situation. It's entirely possible that we only have a few million left to work with in 2012 capspace.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 05:08 PM
You know what you make a good point because I actually did not see that in the article. But I think they are wrong because we really do have 17 FAs and Mario Williams really did make $18M last year and we really did have to be UNDER the cap last year. Those really are facts. I do not know where they got there 2012 information from, but I assure you it's wrong. Plus the Texans do not really release most of the contract info, so for a site to claim this is our cap situation minus 17 FA for 2012 is suspect (especially considering no other website that reported that number insisted it was our 2012 committed contracts). There is not way we have 51 players committed RIGHT NOW to the 2012 salary cap when we had 17 FA's going into the offseason (and only sign Foster so far so there's 11 more roster spots).

yes mario (and all the other FA salaries) will come off and in theory that should free up space but when you think of all the contracts we have entering their last yr (generally the most expensive) like schaub, DB plus all the pricey FA's and re-signings weve had the last few yrs, its quite possible that this has mostly offset the 18+m freed up by dropping mario and co off the cap

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 05:10 PM
Salaries do go up each year, we know the Texans restructured several players, and there could have been some bonuses and incentives met for making the playoffs or individual performance. The Chiefs GM said they had to pay 25 million in incentives for the 2011 year after having an 7-9 team that didn't make the playoffs. It wouldn't surprise me if the Texans had to pay some guys incentives for the playoff win, or winning the division, or something else. If a crappy team like the Chiefs has to pay out that much, we may have a similar situation. It's entirely possible that we only have a few million left to work with in 2012 capspace.

But do you realize that we have 12 open roster spots (11 now with Foster signed)? 5 year $43.5M will definitely eat the rest of that for sure. So we are now over the cap with the signing of Foster and 11 vacant roster spots (if that claim is correct).

Look I am not insisting how much cap space we have available. I am just saying that wherever we are now in relation to the cap that is WITH everybody's 2011 contract counting against it and that we are not likely over with those contracts because the CBA said ALL teams must be under the cap or face sanctions. Why? because the 2011 League Year has not ended yet (March 13th).

The reason why we were able to sign Foster was because his contract is for the 2012 season and beyond. We will have 17 less contracts against the cap come March 13th so we were able to get a deal done.

yes mario (and all the other FA salaries) will come off and in theory that should free up space but when you think of all the contracts we have entering their last yr (generally the most expensive) like schaub, DB plus all the pricey FA's and re-signings weve had the last few yrs, its quite possible that this has mostly offset the 18+m freed up by dropping mario and co off the cap

Why do yall think I don't understand that salaries go up? I get it. But we have 17 FAs whose contracts expire at the END of the 2011 League Year which HAS NOT come to an end yet. 17 contracts that will not count against 2012 cap (so they will free up cap room). Dude if we are only $4M under the cap with their contracts relieved (even with other people's salaries increasing). We cannot sign any 12 players (Let alone a group including Foster, Wlliams or Myers). Why? League minimum is on average around $600k. We have 12 roster spots. That's $7.2M if we sign everybody to around the league minimum. See why that's not likely (especially now that we signed Foster to a big contract)?

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 05:18 PM
The reason why we were able to sign Foster was because his contract is for the 2012 season and beyond. We will have 17 less contracts against the cap come March 13th so we were able to get a deal done.

i was thinking that way too and thought this whole capp pressure thing was total overblown story that would end up being nothing....

but EVERYONE of the media/cap guys are saying we're gonna be right up against the 2012 cap (the figures vary depending on who you listen to but <6m) as we are right now and they have alot more contacts and details of 2012 cap than we do

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 05:26 PM
But do you realize that we have 12 open roster spots (11 now with Foster signed)? 5 year $43.5M will definitely eat the rest of that for sure. So we are now over the cap with the signing of Foster and 11 vacant roster spots (if that claim is correct).

Look I am not insisting how much cap space we have available. I am just saying that wherever we are now in relation to the cap that is WITH everybody's 2011 contract counting against it and that we are not likely over with those contracts because the CBA said ALL teams must be under the cap or face sanctions. Why? because the 2011 League Year has not ended yet (March 13th).

The reason why we were able to sign Foster was because his contract is for the 2012 season and beyond. We will have 17 less contracts against the cap come March 13th so we were able to get a deal done.


Yeah, I understand all that, and I think the sportwriters who do this for a living understand that as well. That's why when they say 2012 cap figures, I assume they are talking about post-March 13. I would imagine they have already accounted for the money coming off the books, dead money, escalating salaries, incentives and 2011 rollover. I have a hard time believing guys like John Clayton and Mike Florio don't take that into account when talking about cap numbers.

Clayton on the cap:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7570116/nfl-plenty-cap-room-improve

It's quite obvious that he's talking about 2012 cap space. Although, he's assuming a 120 million total cap, which means if it turns out to be 125, we will have a bit more to work with.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 05:26 PM
Why do yall think I don't understand that salaries go up? I get it. But we have 17 FAs whose contracts expire at the END of the 2011 League Year which HAS NOT come to an end yet. 17 contracts that will not count against 2012 cap (so they will free up cap room). Dude if we are only $4M under the cap with their contracts relieved (even with other people's salaries increasing). We cannot sign any 12 players (Let alone a group including Foster, Wlliams or Myers). Why? League minimum is on average around $600k. We have 12 roster spots. That's $7.2M if we sign everybody to around the league minimum. See why that's not likely (especially now that we signed Foster to a big contract)?


ya but like i said in my first post, if they are over the cap right now, they can free up the most of 15-20m by simply restructuring guys like meco, jjoe, manning, antonio and od and another 5 by cutting jacoby and leinart so its not exactly doomsday scenario or anything.

if they did all that they might still be able to squeeze everyone (even mario if he somehow signed a long/reasonable contract) in. unlikely but possible. and it would tie in to the cap squeeze storyline we're supposedly in

gary
03-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Money talks and in the NFL teams turn around so fast Mario just might go to a so called bad team.

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 06:09 PM
Yeah, I understand all that, and I think the sportwriters who do this for a living understand that as well. That's why when they say 2012 cap figures, I assume they are talking about post-March 13. I would imagine they have already accounted for the money coming off the books, dead money, escalating salaries, incentives and 2011 rollover. I have a hard time believing guys like John Clayton and Mike Florio don't take that into account when talking about cap numbers.

Clayton on the cap:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7570116/nfl-plenty-cap-room-improve

It's quite obvious that he's talking about 2012 cap space. Although, he's assuming a 120 million total cap, which means if it turns out to be 125, we will have a bit more to work with.

Really? Because this is all I got.
One of the new parts of the NFL collective bargaining agreement is the ability of teams to roll over remaining cap room into the next season. The 2011 season finished with $320 million of remaining cap room. Thirty teams carried over $301.78 million of unused cap money to give the 32 teams approximately $711 million of combined room as they start to prepare for the 2012 season.

The 2011 salary cap was $120.375 million, and the 2012 ceiling is expected to be close. The exact number is calculated based on revenues and should be available in the next week or two.

The Houston Texans and San Diego Chargers didn't have enough remaining room to push money over into 2012, so Houston has $3.3 million of cap space and San Diego has $9.2 million.

I remember an article on ESPN earlier this season that reported the Texans at about $2M under the cap with Mario's $18M (and 11 other upcoming FAs) before we added our 5 IR replacements.

2011 salary cap WITH Mario.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/

I also found an article on ESPN confirming this (I can't find it right now so I 'll look through my posts because I've posted it before). So now you want me to believe that with 17 FA coming off the book we are only able to clear $1M-$2M of cap space to sign 12 people for the 2012 season?

IMO John Clayton does not elude to anything and barely devotes a fragment of a sentence to discuss the Texans cap situation. I don't know how you get all that "homework" you are talking about in that limited capacity. JMO.

ya but like i said in my first post, if they are over the cap right now, they can free up the most of 15-20m by simply restructuring guys like meco, jjoe, manning, antonio and od and another 5 by cutting jacoby and leinart so its not exactly doomsday scenario or anything.

if they did all that they might still be able to squeeze everyone (even mario if he somehow signed a long/reasonable contract) in. unlikely but possible. and it would tie in to the cap squeeze storyline we're supposedly in

But they are NOT over the cap because Foster new contract does not count for the 2011 league year that we are currently still in. 2012 league year does not begin until March 13th. Look I am not an accountant but accounting 101 states that you cannot take someone off the books until the accounting period is over (this case March 13th). Anybody reporting our cap situation does not have accurate information and guys are making assumptions that these "experts" dig deep to find all they can about every team. They don't. They don't even know the salary cap for next season. So you expect to believe that they have the 2012 contract information for Texans (and 32 other teams)? I mean we will have 17 less contracts on the books and I doubt Mario Williams $18M will only clear $1M-$2M for us next year. Now add 16 other expiring contracts to the mix. I know you see where I'm coming from. I just think we should take those articles with a grain of salt.

ckhouston
03-05-2012, 06:18 PM
Mario is gone. This tells me his asking price was too high. Sorry to see him go but Reed can get it done.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 06:26 PM
But they are NOT over the cap because Foster new contract does not count for the 2011 league year that we are currently still in. 2012 league year does not begin until March 13th. Look I am not an accountant but accounting 101 states that you cannot take someone off the books until the accounting period is over (this case March 13th). Anybody reporting our cap situation does not have accurate information and guys are making assumptions that these "experts" dig deep to find all they can about every team. They don't. They don't even know the salary cap for next season. So you expect to believe that they have the 2012 contract information for Texans (and 32 other teams)? I mean we will have 17 less contracts on the books and I doubt Mario Williams $18M will only clear $1M-$2M for us next year. Now add 16 other expiring contracts to the mix. I know you see where I'm coming from. I just think we should take those articles with a grain of salt.

:smiliepalm:
you're not getting what im saying! :)

forget about the 2011 cap. thats gone for all intents and purposes. we will be at/under that on March 13.

im saying if the texans made no other moves/re-signings etc now until March 14, we'd be roughly 3m over the 2012 salary (we were <5m under based on projections + arians 8m 2012 hit= 3m over)

and its you v everyone else in the media on that take that the texans arent in cap trouble so if you think not even a handful of all these guys are competent and that theyre all morons that dont understand cap 101 except for you then by all means go ahead. but id drop the god complex a bit and accept these guys have contacts and access to alot more accurate cap figures than you and I, then i think youre in a bit of denial. yes the final 2012 cap limit or individual teams cap hits are by no means finalised but theyre all in the same ballpark so imo theyre 95% accurate

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 06:35 PM
Really? Because this is all I got.


I remember an article on ESPN earlier this season that reported the Texans at about $2M under the cap with Mario's $18M (and 11 other upcoming FAs) before we added our 5 IR replacements.

2011 salary cap WITH Mario.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/

I also found an article on ESPN confirming this (I can't find it right now so I 'll look through my posts because I've posted it before). So now you want me to believe that with 17 FA coming off the book we are only able to clear $1M-$2M of cap space to sign 12 people for the 2012 season?

IMO John Clayton does not elude to anything and barely devotes a fragment of a sentence to discuss the Texans cap situation. I don't know how you get all that "homework" you are talking about in that limited capacity. JMO.



youre going around in circle

steelbtexan
03-05-2012, 06:39 PM
Fosters signing = MW gone

As it should be.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 06:45 PM
heres a good article about the texans cap that shows the remedies available

http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/texans-must-clear-cap-space-coming-weeks

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 06:56 PM
La Canfora just said Mario won't be a Texan.

TexanSam
03-05-2012, 07:06 PM
I just don't see how the Texans could keep Mario without either restructuring a lot of deals or cutting a bunch of players. And while he's a great player, our defense doesn't need him to excel. I would be disappointed to see him go, but right now I'm expecting it.

I also wouldn't want to keep him if it meant not investing in other players. If resigning Myers, Briesel, and locking up Duane Brown long term means losing Mario, then so be it.

gary
03-05-2012, 07:11 PM
La Canfora just said Mario won't be a Texan.I have thought this all along.

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 07:17 PM
I have thought this all along.One injury on D and we're sunk. :headhurts:

Lurvinator11
03-05-2012, 07:20 PM
One injury on D and we're sunk. :headhurts:

Not exactly. Losing Mario will suck, but we can certainly sign some players with the money we were going to give him. Add depth to certain positions. That doesn't even include the draft either. In the draft we can get some depth as well. Mario leaving sucks, but it is not the end of the world.

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 07:21 PM
They have a lot of space if you ignore the 20 million in dead money from cutting a bunch of players last year... Their payroll makes it look like they have more money to work with than they do. Tagging Spencer likely put them up against the cap.

Speaking of which, how can we still have dead money in 2012 for guys like Slaton & Okoye? I thought all that would be escalated into the year said player was let go.

DocBar
03-05-2012, 07:27 PM
Mario is gone. This tells me his asking price was too high. Sorry to see him go but Reed can get it done.Reed didn't end up replacing MW this past season, Barwin did and did so in fine fashion.

GP
03-05-2012, 07:33 PM
I am ready for Mario to be here or to be gone so this topic can be over with.

GP
03-05-2012, 07:39 PM
La Canfora just said Mario won't be a Texan.

Hmmm.....

I'm still geeking off the high of knowing Foster is locked up for 5 years that I have to say I'm indifferent to what happens with Mario. If he can stay, then great! If he cannot, then that's OK because it means we never stood a chance in the first place.

This is like when we were in the Nnamdi Asomogha sweepstakes until the bidding got super stoopid and we decided to take our money and split it with a CB and a S. I have a feeling Texans FO decided to go after Foster and let the Mario situation take whatever course it takes, which will be MAJOR MONEY from a few teams trying to land the biggest free agent prize of the 2012 year. It's a repeat of the Nnamdi saga, in a way.

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 07:43 PM
... I'm indifferent to what happens with Mario. If he can stay, then great! If he cannot, then that's OK because it means we never stood a chance in the first place.I guess that's the way to look at it. No one else on our D draws double teams, though. I think losing MW will hurt us a lot ... a whole lot. :mariopalm:

Allstar
03-05-2012, 07:46 PM
I guess that's the way to look at it. No one else on our D draws double teams, though. I think losing MW will hurt us a lot ... a whole lot. :mariopalm:

Did you watch the games last year?

DocBar
03-05-2012, 07:48 PM
I guess that's the way to look at it. No one else on our D draws double teams, though. I think losing MW will hurt us a lot ... a whole lot. :mariopalm:You honestly think that no Texan defender got double teamed for 13 games last season?

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 07:50 PM
You honestly think that no Texan defender got double teamed for 13 games last season?

That wouldn't be true. But I can say that NONE of our OLB's were DT'd down the stretch without Mario though. I know for a fact Antonio and JJ Watt got plenty of DT's, but Barwin and Reed did not.

drs23
03-05-2012, 07:51 PM
I am ready for Mario to be here or to be gone so this topic can be over with.

I'm all aboard GP. Let the cards fall where they may but JMO the FO will do all they can do to keep Mario on board.

As posted many, many times, we'll see when we see. Personally I don't see it happening but will not be surprised if it does.

I'd like to see him back myself.

I'm gonna hide-n-watch.

GP
03-05-2012, 07:56 PM
Playoffs, you started a whole new argument now! Look at what you did!!!

LOL.

DocBar
03-05-2012, 07:57 PM
That wouldn't be true. But I can say that NONE of our OLB's were DT'd down the stretch without Mario though. I know for a fact Antonio and JJ Watt got plenty of DT's, but Barwin and Reed did not.Really? NONE? You might want to go back and watch some games. Watt got free up the middle a few times because Barwin was DT'd.
To make such a blanket statement as that doesn't make much sense to me.

Mr teX
03-05-2012, 07:59 PM
I am ready for Mario to be here or to be gone so this topic can be over with.

rep your way...I'm just about tapped out on the subject as well. Glad we got Foster back in the fold (as if there was any doubt) but cbs does make a good point as far as us having to get 17 other guys signed. All these articles you do have to take with a grain of salt b/c none of them really know what our cap situation is.

Even signing all these guys to league minimums would still appear to put us over the cap for 2012 when you factor in Arian new deal & the assumption that Meyers, Brisiel & Dreesen will be brought back at higher salaries & then there's our draft class.

The other thing about Arian's deal is that even if Mario's outta here & we save whatever we would've paid him, Foster's deal still doesn't appear to be that friendly in the first few years for us for next year; At least not friendly enough for the texans to be able to bring in a quality 2nd WR in FA this year & then be able to give Brown & Barwin what they may command for next year.

So something's amiss imo..either we're not as up against the cap as all these capologists say we are or they don't plan on doing anything in FA this year or next & we'll likely be losing another guy next year between Barwin, Brown & Schaub.

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 08:02 PM
Really? NONE? You might want to go back and watch some games. Watt got free up the middle a few times because Barwin was DT'd.
To make such a blanket statement as that doesn't make much sense to me.

Since I do not have copies of every game I did go back and watch all of the INT's and Sacks and I never saw Barwin or Reed DT'd one time but Watt and Smith got plenty of G/C DT's all season.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans

This may not be game film but you can see the D-line and what's going on the play. What games did you see either Reed or Barwin DT'd (and did it lead to sack or INT)? I only asked if it led to a sack or INT because that's all can view on nfl.com I did not see DT'son Reed or Barwin but plenty of JJ and Antonio.

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 08:03 PM
Not exactly. Losing Mario will suck, but we can certainly sign some players with the money we were going to give him. Add depth to certain positions. That doesn't even include the draft either. In the draft we can get some depth as well. Mario leaving sucks, but it is not the end of the world.

I hope we can get Mark Anderson back. I think he'll be a stud in Wade's defense.

drs23
03-05-2012, 08:08 PM
That wouldn't be true. But I can say that NONE of our OLB's were DT'd down the stretch without Mario though. I know for a fact Antonio and JJ Watt got plenty of DT's, but Barwin and Reed did not.

And that worked out OK, right? #1 defense for most of the season and finished #2 overall?

gary
03-05-2012, 08:15 PM
Is Anderson a free agent?

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 08:18 PM
And that worked out OK, right? #1 defense for most of the season and finished #2 overall?

Sure it worked out nice. I am just saying wouldn't it be nice to add a 3rd DT commander in Mario? I don't think you would argue against. I have already presented argument on how we could make it work financially.

But let me ask you this question...If we let Mario walk and replace him with a FA or rookie...do you think we will be #2 defense with essentially the same team next year?

I ask you this because well we really did not play many elite offense (Saints and...) do you think those same guys could keep that intensity up. IMO status quo is the worst way to build a franchise. That's like taking success for granted by saying "We'll do fine next year because we did fine last year". You have to improve every year.

If you think we are better without Mario. I really cannot debate with you because it will go nowhere. But if you think it's about financial security. Well I've already presented my argument against this (check my recent post). Now my argument is not we will keep Mario but we CAN keep him without hurting the team financially. Now everything else is just up the management and Mario.

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 08:27 PM
And that worked out OK, right? #1 defense for most of the season and finished #2 overall?

A wise man once said:

"Don't ever let good enough be good enough."

* Bill Parcells (http://www.mineralarea.edu/athletics/MBBHoopsQuotes.htm)

Not to take anything away from the Texans' success, I'll be shouting "#2 Defense" from the top of my lungs as well.

But I wonder what we'll look like next year, when we replace 5 of the league's worst offenses with 5 of the leagues best.

Playoffs
03-05-2012, 08:28 PM
Playoffs, you started a whole new argument now! Look at what you did!!!

LOL.Like puppets on a string. http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm050puppet.gif

:ahhaha:

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 08:34 PM
:smiliepalm:
you're not getting what im saying! :)

forget about the 2011 cap. thats gone for all intents and purposes. we will be at/under that on March 13.

im saying if the texans made no other moves/re-signings etc now until March 14, we'd be roughly 3m over the 2012 salary (we were <5m under based on projections + arians 8m 2012 hit= 3m over)

and its you v everyone else in the media on that take that the texans arent in cap trouble so if you think not even a handful of all these guys are competent and that theyre all morons that dont understand cap 101 except for you then by all means go ahead. but id drop the god complex a bit and accept these guys have contacts and access to alot more accurate cap figures than you and I, then i think youre in a bit of denial. yes the final 2012 cap limit or individual teams cap hits are by no means finalised but theyre all in the same ballpark so imo theyre 95% accurate

I actually understand exactly where you are coming from. The article says we are X amount under the cap and you believe it. I just take these articles with a grain of salt. What contacts do you think these "experts" have because the Texans keep alot of information SECRET? Do you think these guys have secret 2012 contract info that we do not have available on the internet? They just get paid to do what we do for free. Nobody heard ANYTHING about Foster until this morning. Hell John McClain said we were $20 million over the cap...do you want me to believe him too? Look there are SO MANY conflicting reports ALL of them cannot be accurate. That is why I said take them with a grain of salt. At the end of the day we have 17 FA's coming of the books March 13th and 12 roster spots to fill with their cap space. NONE of your "experts" even mentioned this ONE TIME when they listed their conflicting salary cap projections.

Let's look at it like this...
Mario Williams made $18.325M last year
Let low ball the other 16 and say they made on average $600k (which is the avg of all the minimum salary scales)...16 * 600k= $9.6m.

So you want me to believe "experts" who have conflicting reports that we'll only clear $1m-$2m with AT LEAST $28m coming off the books on March 13th. We have 17 contract coming off the books. To believe the "experts" we have the assume that we invested over $28m more than what the current 2012 roster made in 2011, which has 17 LESS contracts on the books than last year. Like I said grain of salt.

ChampionTexan
03-05-2012, 08:48 PM
Speaking of which, how can we still have dead money in 2012 for guys like Slaton & Okoye? I thought all that would be escalated into the year said player was let go.

If a player is released after June 1, any remaining un-amortized bonus is written off against the salary cap of the following league year. Amobi signed a 6 year deal as a rookie (2007 - 2012). Slaton was signed in 2008, and if he had a five year deal, it would have run through 2012. Okoye was released in July of 2011, and Slaton was released after the 2011 season started. If either had un-amortized bonus remaining when they were let go, it would hit 2012.

The flip side of that is that neither can be a whole lot of money. Okoye's entire contract was less than $18 Million, and Slaton was a third round pick.

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 09:08 PM
So something's amiss imo..either we're not as up against the cap as all these capologists say we are or they don't plan on doing anything in FA this year or next & we'll likely be losing another guy next year between Barwin, Brown & Schaub.

Agreed. I figured they must have been talking to Arian as the Tag deadline was so close, so I had an idea that we might sign him.

But if he's got an $8M tag... that will put a damper on future plans if the numbers we are hearing is accurate. Signing Arian to an $8M tag in 2012 & $9.25M tag in 2013 tells me the Texans have more room than we think.

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 09:14 PM
So you want me to believe "experts" who have conflicting reports that we'll only clear $1m-$2m with AT LEAST $28m coming off the books on March 13th. We have 17 contract coming off the books. To believe the "experts" we have the assume that we invested over $28m more than what the current 2012 roster made in 2011, which has 17 LESS contracts on the books than last year. Like I said grain of salt.

Agreed. The only way their numbers can be true, is if Rick Smith has been thinking short termed for a long time now, he & Chris Olsen must have been playing too many rounds of golf or something.

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 09:21 PM
If a player is released after June 1, any remaining un-amortized bonus is written off against the salary cap of the following league year. Amobi signed a 6 year deal as a rookie (2007 - 2012). Slaton was signed in 2008, and if he had a five year deal, it would have run through 2012. Okoye was released in July of 2011, and Slaton was released after the 2011 season started. If either had un-amortized bonus remaining when they were let go, it would hit 2012.

The flip side of that is that neither can be a whole lot of money. Okoye's entire contract was less than $18 Million, and Slaton was a third round pick.

Yeah, but with regard to the Texans' dead money, that 'source' that stated Okoye, Slaton and David Anderson had dead money in 2012 was just a guy on the SomethingAwful messageboard. Really no better a source than anything we have on TTalk. Here's a link, I think it's complete BS. No way do we owe David freaking Anderson 1.4 million this year.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3464116&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post400187767

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 09:40 PM
Really? Because this is all I got.


I remember an article on ESPN earlier this season that reported the Texans at about $2M under the cap with Mario's $18M (and 11 other upcoming FAs) before we added our 5 IR replacements.

2011 salary cap WITH Mario.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/

I also found an article on ESPN confirming this (I can't find it right now so I 'll look through my posts because I've posted it before). So now you want me to believe that with 17 FA coming off the book we are only able to clear $1M-$2M of cap space to sign 12 people for the 2012 season?

IMO John Clayton does not elude to anything and barely devotes a fragment of a sentence to discuss the Texans cap situation. I don't know how you get all that "homework" you are talking about in that limited capacity. JMO.


Wow, quoting Jason La Canfora on last year's salary cap in August 2011. I got news for ya bud, things change from 2011 to 2012. We restructured Antonio Smith, AJ and Demeco Ryans last year (that we know of). Source (http://blog.houstontexans.com/2011/08/04/johnson-ryans-smith-restructure-contracts/) That money has to go somewhere, and some of it gets pushed to 2012. We don't know how much, but it could easily be 8+ million. They did it to make room for JJo and Manning. Then there's the general uptick in player salaries, incentives that were met, and whatnot. There's plenty of reasons that the payroll could be considerably higher this year. Places like Sportrac and Rotoworld do an admirable job of gauging team salary caps, but they simply aren't that accurate.

In any case, John Clayton is a well respected writer on the subject, so are a number of other sports journalists. I think they know more about these things than you're willing to accept. They have lots of sources around the league and use them to get an idea of each team's cap situation. Heck, he might be getting this info from a guy at the NFL office who administrates the salary cap room. Either way, I'll take his word over random people's speculation. He may be off by a couple million, but I seriously doubt he's off by 20+.

marks01234
03-05-2012, 09:47 PM
I fear we are blowing it.

Mario's too good of a talent to let go. I have a sick feeling that Barwin and Reed won't be able to duplicate the success they had last year as teams get more film and our competition gets better. I also have a bad feeling that if Wade leaves after next year, our pass rush will really take a huge decline.

I love watching Smith/Watt play and think those guys will be solid for years to come but I'm not sold on the remainder of the front seven. Our divison will be a lot better offensively next season and beyond so we can't plan to stand still either. Our lofty defensive ranking was built in some part against three poor division offenses - where two of the three will probably take big steps forward this season.

Mario's dominated when we had nobody else on the DL outside of Smith and a terrible secondary. You don't win Super Bowls with groups of good players.

I also get a sick feeling that the cap will be so blown up in 2013 and 2014, we will regret not giving Mario a huge backloaded contract.

Lucky
03-05-2012, 09:52 PM
Yeah, but with regard to the Texans' dead money, that 'source' that stated Okoye, Slaton and David Anderson had dead money in 2012 was just a guy on the SomethingAwful messageboard. Really no better a source than anything we have on TTalk. Here's a link, I think it's complete BS. No way do we owe David freaking Anderson 1.4 million this year.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3464116&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post400187767
Here's a link to the Texans 2010 salary cap page (http://www.inthebullseye.com/cap2010.html) on inthebulleseye. From that, it shows that Okoye still had 2 x $1,875,937 of non-amortized bonus. Slaton had just one year at $166,097 of allocated bonus left. Anderson had $333,333 of dead money. Others:
Orlovsky - $800,000
Molden - $188,503
Adibi - $113,125
Anthony Hill - 2 X $114,125 - $228,500

Only Okoye and Hill could possibly have anything show up on the cap this year. A little over $2 million dead money, maximum. Of course if Jacoby is cut, that bonus money would be due.

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 09:54 PM
Wow, quoting Jason La Canfora on last year's salary cap in August 2011. I got news for ya bud, things change from 2011 to 2012. We restructured Antonio Smith, AJ and Demeco Ryans last year (that we know of). Source (http://blog.houstontexans.com/2011/08/04/johnson-ryans-smith-restructure-contracts/) That money has to go somewhere, and some of it gets pushed to 2012. We don't know how much, but it could easily be 8+ million. They did it to make room for JJo and Manning. Then there's the general uptick in player salaries, incentives that were met, and whatnot. There's plenty of reasons that the payroll could be considerably higher this year. Places like Sportrac and Rotoworld do an admirable job of gauging team salary caps, but they simply aren't that accurate.

In any case, John Clayton is a well respected writer on the subject, so are a number of other sports journalists. I think they know more about these things than you're willing to accept. They have lots of sources around the league and use them to get an idea of each team's cap situation. Heck, he might be getting this info from a guy at the NFL office who administrates the salary cap room. Either way, I'll take his word over random people's speculation. He may be off by a couple million, but I seriously doubt he's off by 20+.

Yeah and John McClain is well-respected (doesn't he have a HOF vote) and he said the Texans are $20 million over. Who are you gonna believe? Both are "well-respected".

Dude I know what you're saying BUT you're missing the point. I just said take these "experts" with a grain of salt. You look at "experts"and believe what they tell you. I look at it as speculation.

I know that some people's salaries will increase. I am well aware that we've restructured some deals so they will increase as well. I've mentioned that in some of my past posts. BUT we still have 17 FAs coming off the books. I know it's the 2012 league year (starting March 13th) BUT to believe the "experts" you have to ASSUME that we invested over $28m more in salary for our 2012 roster, which has 17 less contracts than 2011.

They DO NOT have any info on 2012 contracts than what is available online. The Texans do not disclose much information within the organization. What makes you guys so confident that these experts have these tight connections within the Texans organization? Remember they have conflicting info. The "experts" just say the Texans have X amount of cap space yet they fail to mention any of the things you assume are included in their projections. They do not say the Texans have X FAs for 2012. They do not say the Texans have X players on contract for 2012. They do not even list a source where they got their contract info from. They just report it and people role with it.

I am not acting like I know the 2012 cap or the 2012 contract numbers for the 2012 contracted Texans (because I don't but neither dothe "experts"). But I do know we have 17 FA's that will account for AT LEAST $28m of freed up cap space. If the 2012 roster as it stands, with 17 LESS contracts than in 2011, only frees up $1m-$2m next year it will not be good for the Texans in the long run. You cannot restructure every year.

Lucky
03-05-2012, 10:04 PM
So something's amiss imo..either we're not as up against the cap as all these capologists say we are or they don't plan on doing anything in FA this year or next & we'll likely be losing another guy next year between Barwin, Brown & Schaub.
Here's the truth: There's not enough information in the public domain to be a good armchair GM. Not anymore. Everyone's pulling crap out of their arse. The situation might not be as bad as reported. It could be worse. There's no way to know for sure.

steelbtexan
03-05-2012, 10:12 PM
Here's the truth: There's not enough information in the public domain to be a good armchair GM. Not anymore. Everyone's pulling crap out of their arse. The situation might not be as bad as reported. It could be worse. There's no way to know for sure.

^^^^
This

Surely Rick wouldn't put the team in cap hell just by re-signing Arian?

Rick/Gary are going to try to win in 2012. But it appears that they want to see how MS comes back from injury. If he doesn't make it back, then I could see the Texans being major players in draft/FA finding another QB.

They should have the cap room with the expected cap increase in 2013. Of course with the myian calander thingy, none of this will matter. LOL

Mr teX
03-05-2012, 10:16 PM
Here's the truth: There's not enough information in the public domain to be a good armchair GM. Not anymore. Everyone's pulling crap out of their arse. The situation might not be as bad as reported. It could be worse. There's no way to know for sure.

Looking at Arian's deal, I'm of the opinion it's not as bad as people think. I refuse to believe that Olsen & Smith have been that incompetent.; It's probably not good enough to get Mario & every 1 of our FA's back in the fold, but not so bad that we'll be facing these same challenges next year with Brown, Schaub & Barwin.

Lucky
03-05-2012, 10:23 PM
I can almost guarantee that there aren't any "experts" that know how much the Texans are over/under the salary cap. How can I make this bold statement? Because the teams themselves don't know what the cap number is (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/2012-cap-number-still-isnt-known/).

The time for using the franchise tags has come and gone. And most of the teams that used the tags still don’t know exactly how much it will cost.
That’s because the base franchise tenders now flow from a calculation that ensures the tenders will match the average cap percentage consumed by the tenders in the past five years. So without knowing the current year’s salary cap, there’s no way to know the outcome of the application of the percentage.


And that continues to be the problem — teams still don’t know the 2012 salary cap.


On Saturday, we explained that the league and the NFLPA are “scrambling” to find a way to increase the number, given the impact of benefit costs on a total salary-and-benefits pot that goes to the players. Eight days from the start of the new league year, and there’s still no answer.


We’ve got a feeling it’ll arrive via press release at roughly 5:00 p.m. on Friday.

ChampionTexan
03-05-2012, 10:26 PM
Yeah, but with regard to the Texans' dead money, that 'source' that stated Okoye, Slaton and David Anderson had dead money in 2012 was just a guy on the SomethingAwful messageboard. Really no better a source than anything we have on TTalk. Here's a link, I think it's complete BS. No way do we owe David freaking Anderson 1.4 million this year.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3464116&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post400187767

He didn't ask if it was correct - I wouldn't have answered that because I don't know. He asked how it could happen, and I told him.

badboy
03-05-2012, 10:27 PM
Questions:
1. There was a salary cap in 2011. If Texans were over why did NFL allow?
2. If teams were allowed to be over why not for 2012?
3. How come no one states their sources?
4. Why is there not a confirmed source for accurates amounts of salaries & bonuses?
5. If Foster is guaranteed $18m year one yet bonus amount and bases not identified, how does anyone know how much the cap hit is as some of you have posted. You are guessing.
6. If Foster's 2012 cap (when known) is apprx the 2012 Leinert's + Jacoby's + Foster's 2011, how does that impact signing Mario? Seems they just cancel each other out and we can sign for Mario at anything less than his 2011 cap and still be ok. Yes, there is an amount for draft but cuts of other non-essentials players, or contract re-adjustments that Smith and Olsen are working on should take care of that.
7. Escalators happen every year and we signed two major free agents last season despite escalators. Why is this suddenly an issue?

badboy
03-05-2012, 10:58 PM
If our defense goes one on one this season we have several guys who are gonna increase their productivity. toot- toot.

drs23
03-05-2012, 11:03 PM
Sure it worked out nice. I am just saying wouldn't it be nice to add a 3rd DT commander in Mario? I don't think you would argue against. I have already presented argument on how we could make it work financially.

Yes, no doubt, I agree. I stated that it worked out nicely, that's not saying it wouldn't have been better without Mario. 5 games, 5 sacks is impressive, no doubt. As much as #90 is BA, there's no questioning his injury record.

But let me ask you this question...If we let Mario walk and replace him with a FA or rookie...do you think we will be #2 defense with essentially the same team next year?

I think that would depend on the FA or rookie. If they show anywhere near what #99 does, c'mon.

I ask you this because well we really did not play many elite offense (Saints and...) do you think those same guys could keep that intensity up. IMO status quo is the worst way to build a franchise. That's like taking success for granted by saying "We'll do fine next year because we did fine last year". You have to improve every year.

I don't disagree referencing my statement above. If we can get any player, at any position, that can run with JJ Watt, bring him on.

If you think we are better without Mario. I really cannot debate with you because it will go nowhere. But if you think it's about financial security. Well I've already presented my argument against this (check my recent post). Now my argument is not we will keep Mario but we CAN keep him without hurting the team financially. Now everything else is just up the management and Mario.

You won't find me stating we'd be better of without Mario anywhere. In regards to the financial state of the team, I think the Texans are in pretty good hands. JMO

A wise man once said:



Not to take anything away from the Texans' success, I'll be shouting "#2 Defense" from the top of my lungs as well.

But I wonder what we'll look like next year, when we replace 5 of the league's worst offenses with 5 of the leagues best.

Legitimate concern, I think, TK.

I think if ya squint just right, this bears out what cbs1507 and I were discussing above. Gotta field the best team with what we have to work with, whatever Rick has to do to get there.

mussop
03-05-2012, 11:17 PM
One injury on D and we're sunk. :headhurts:

Seriously?

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 11:26 PM
He didn't ask if it was correct - I wouldn't have answered that because I don't know. He asked how it could happen, and I told him.

And adding the source to that rumor isn't relevant...?

Sheesh, lighten up Francis.

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 11:41 PM
Yeah and John McClain is well-respected (doesn't he have a HOF vote) and he said the Texans are $20 million over. Who are you gonna believe? Both are "well-respected".

I personally don't respect John McClain as much of a source. The only things he seems to know are what the Texans spoon feed him. He consistently gets things wrong like that 20 million quote. He couldn't differentiate between what the team spent last year (~140 million), and what the team counted against the salary cap (~118 million). Signing bonuses of JJo and JJ pushed that number up, but they are amortized over the length of the contract. Anyways, he does seem to screw up the nitty gritty details a lot from what I have read.

Dude I know what you're saying BUT you're missing the point. I just said take these "experts" with a grain of salt. You look at "experts"and believe what they tell you. I look at it as speculation.

Here's the problem though, none of the respected NFL guys are saying we have 28 million or whatever number you think it is. None, except a few guys on messageboards. I don't doubt that John Clayton could be off by a few million, but I don't think he's off by 20. Same with Florio who pegged us around 5 million in free space, and Andrew Brandt, etc etc... The only certain variable I see is the 2012 cap total, which as stated above hasn't been released. Most of those projections are going off the 2011 number of 120.3 million. If it goes up 5 million, we probably have a bit more to work with, but don't count on it yet.

I know that some people's salaries will increase. I am well aware that we've restructured some deals so they will increase as well. I've mentioned that in some of my past posts. BUT we still have 17 FAs coming off the books. I know it's the 2012 league year (starting March 13th) BUT to believe the "experts" you have to ASSUME that we invested over $28m more in salary for our 2012 roster, which has 17 less contracts than 2011.

They DO NOT have any info on 2012 contracts than what is available online. The Texans do not disclose much information within the organization. What makes you guys so confident that these experts have these tight connections within the Texans organization? Remember they have conflicting info. The "experts" just say the Texans have X amount of cap space yet they fail to mention any of the things you assume are included in their projections. They do not say the Texans have X FAs for 2012. They do not say the Texans have X players on contract for 2012. They do not even list a source where they got their contract info from. They just report it and people role with it.

I am not acting like I know the 2012 cap or the 2012 contract numbers for the 2012 contracted Texans (because I don't but neither dothe "experts"). But I do know we have 17 FA's that will account for AT LEAST $28m of freed up cap space. If the 2012 roster as it stands, with 17 LESS contracts than in 2011, only frees up $1m-$2m next year it will not be good for the Texans in the long run. You cannot restructure every year.

Look, I hope you're right and the Texans have 50 gazillion dollars to spend, but I just don't see it happening. If you have a good source that says otherwise, please link it, cause I haven't seen it.

cbs1507
03-05-2012, 11:58 PM
I personally don't respect John McClain as much of a source. The only things he seems to know are what the Texans spoon feed him. He consistently gets things wrong like that 20 million quote. He couldn't differentiate between what the team spent last year (~140 million), and what the team counted against the salary cap (~118 million). Signing bonuses of JJo and JJ pushed that number up, but they are amortized over the length of the contract. Anyways, he does seem to screw up the nitty gritty details a lot from what I have read.

Ok sowe both agree John McClain is unreliable. Cool. :highfive:

Here's the problem though, none of the respected NFL guys are saying we have 28 million or whatever number you think it is. None, except a few guys on messageboards. I don't doubt that John Clayton could be off by a few million, but I don't think he's off by 20. Same with Florio who pegged us around 5 million in free space, and Andrew Brandt, etc etc... The only certain variable I see is the 2012 cap total, which as stated above hasn't been released. Most of those projections are going off the 2011 number of 120.3 million. If it goes up 5 million, we probably have a bit more to work with, but don't count on it yet.
You know now that I am thinking about it I could be over-simplifying it. I'm basically subtracting what the 17 FA counted against the cap in 2011 and assuming that even though salaries will increase in 2012 it won't increase enough to exceed the $28+m the 17 FA's made last year will free up about that much space. It sound plausible when I thought about. But at the end of the day we need to know the 2012 contracts to make a sound calculation. And I do not have that (so I cannot say how much we have).


Look, I hope you're right and the Texans have 50 gazillion dollars to spend, but I just don't see it happening. If you have a good source that says otherwise, please link it, cause I haven't seen it.
I do not have a source that lists contract other than rotoworld and sportsrac. I'm not sure how reliable they are. I just know we had 12 FA's going into the season and 5 people went on IR. I just estimated the 17 salaries and gave the low estimate of $28m. But of course we do not have a firm source to indicate the 2012 contract, which are probably more important than the $28m.

So I am not proclaiming myself right or anything like that. I was just presenting my case since the experts seem to have conflicting information. So I guess we'll just wait until March 13th.

infantrycak
03-06-2012, 12:04 AM
I personally don't respect John McClain as much of a source. The only things he seems to know are what the Texans spoon feed him. He consistently gets things wrong like that 20 million quote. He couldn't differentiate between what the team spent last year (~140 million), and what the team counted against the salary cap (~118 million). Signing bonuses of JJo and JJ pushed that number up, but they are amortized over the length of the contract. Anyways, he does seem to screw up the nitty gritty details a lot from what I have read.

I don't respect any of them. It is incredible to me that fans on here collectively consistently know more than these yahoos in the print and radio media. I mean c'mon folks you are on the radio for four hours and this is your chosen profession. It isn't just about getting free access to the games. Learn something. Can't remember which one but I think it was John Granato who was going on and on about how the Texans would take a $20+ mil cap hit if they cut Carr when that was blatantly wrong. I don't blame people for not having deep throat inside sources but at least study your chosen subject.

noxiousdog
03-06-2012, 12:17 AM
I understand losing Mario, but let's not pretend that it isn't going to hurt.

Here are the offenses we played last year and their points ranking:
Indy 28th
Miami 20th
New Orleans 2nd
Pittsburgh 21st (and they were much worse on the road)
Oakland 16th
Baltimore 12th
Tennessee 21st
Jacksonville 28th (same ppg as indy)
Cleveland 30th
Tampa Bay 27th
Atlanta 7th
Cincinnati 18th
Carolina 5th.

That isn't exactly a murderers row. 10 of 16 games were against teams in the bottom 3rd. 6 were against the one of the 5 worst offenses. So, yes we had a good defense, but saying it was the 2nd best defense last year isn't telling the whole picture.

When we did play good offenses we got lit up for 40 and 28. And then classify Atlanta however. They scored over 30 seven times, and 16 or less 5 times.

imatexan
03-06-2012, 02:39 AM
I understand losing Mario, but let's not pretend that it isn't going to hurt.

Here are the offenses we played last year and their points ranking:
Indy 28th
Miami 20th
New Orleans 2nd
Pittsburgh 21st (and they were much worse on the road)
Oakland 16th
Baltimore 12th
Tennessee 21st
Jacksonville 28th (same ppg as indy)
Cleveland 30th
Tampa Bay 27th
Atlanta 7th
Cincinnati 18th
Carolina 5th.

That isn't exactly a murderers row. 10 of 16 games were against teams in the bottom 3rd. 6 were against the one of the 5 worst offenses. So, yes we had a good defense, but saying it was the 2nd best defense last year isn't telling the whole picture.

When we did play good offenses we got lit up for 40 and 28. And then classify Atlanta however. They scored over 30 seven times, and 16 or less 5 times.


Yep.

Bottom line, I think the Texans should strive to be the best defense in the league every year and losing Mario in no way will help that.

Add in this years schedule and if we are Mario-less there is reason for concern, not concern as in we are screwed but maybe another second round exit depending on how the rest of the off season plays out.

Maddict5
03-06-2012, 03:42 AM
I actually understand exactly where you are coming from. The article says we are X amount under the cap and you believe it. I just take these articles with a grain of salt. What contacts do you think these "experts" have because the Texans keep alot of information SECRET? Do you think these guys have secret 2012 contract info that we do not have available on the internet? They just get paid to do what we do for free. Nobody heard ANYTHING about Foster until this morning. Hell John McClain said we were $20 million over the cap...do you want me to believe him too? Look there are SO MANY conflicting reports ALL of them cannot be accurate. That is why I said take them with a grain of salt. At the end of the day we have 17 FA's coming of the books March 13th and 12 roster spots to fill with their cap space. NONE of your "experts" even mentioned this ONE TIME when they listed their conflicting salary cap projections.

Let's look at it like this...
Mario Williams made $18.325M last year
Let low ball the other 16 and say they made on average $600k (which is the avg of all the minimum salary scales)...16 * 600k= $9.6m.

So you want me to believe "experts" who have conflicting reports that we'll only clear $1m-$2m with AT LEAST $28m coming off the books on March 13th. We have 17 contract coming off the books. To believe the "experts" we have the assume that we invested over $28m more than what the current 2012 roster made in 2011, which has 17 LESS contracts on the books than last year. Like I said grain of salt.

-only 12 of those contracts coming off counted against the cap most likely (as they were street FA replacements ie not in the top 51 salries)

-i didnt mean mclain when i said local, i meant aj and others who actually understand cap and do their homework.

-jjoe has a 9.75 m cap hit this yr. look at that again. 1 player is taking up 1/12 of the probable cap. granted hes prob the highest hit but look at all the guys that will have pretty big hits too- schaub, aj, OD, DB, winston, antonio, meco, cush, manning. then the mid level guys like KW, jacoby, wade, JJ, leinart, cody. That makes 16 guys with sizeable cap hits so its not that farfetched to think that with those guys accounting for that much cap (not even mentioning the other 23 cheaper guys under contract) that we're pressed up against the cap with 39 players

Mr teX
03-06-2012, 06:17 AM
I understand losing Mario, but let's not pretend that it isn't going to hurt.

Here are the offenses we played last year and their points ranking:
Indy 28th
Miami 20th
New Orleans 2nd
Pittsburgh 21st (and they were much worse on the road)
Oakland 16th
Baltimore 12th
Tennessee 21st
Jacksonville 28th (same ppg as indy)
Cleveland 30th
Tampa Bay 27th
Atlanta 7th
Cincinnati 18th
Carolina 5th.

That isn't exactly a murderers row. 10 of 16 games were against teams in the bottom 3rd. 6 were against the one of the 5 worst offenses. So, yes we had a good defense, but saying it was the 2nd best defense last year isn't telling the whole picture.

When we did play good offenses we got lit up for 40 and 28. And then classify Atlanta however. They scored over 30 seven times, and 16 or less 5 times.

& no matter how you substitute any 3 of the bolded in with GB, NE & Det...3 of the most potent offenses in the league led by 3 of the best qb's in the league..it ain't gonna be pretty.

b0ng
03-06-2012, 07:28 AM
Seriously?

Yeah, thinning out the talent on defense usually makes serious injuries to starters more devestating. Crossing my fingers that we don't have to go through the Braman/Nading experience at any point in 2012.

b0ng
03-06-2012, 08:50 AM
Yeah, I understand all that, and I think the sportwriters who do this for a living understand that as well. That's why when they say 2012 cap figures, I assume they are talking about post-March 13. I would imagine they have already accounted for the money coming off the books, dead money, escalating salaries, incentives and 2011 rollover. I have a hard time believing guys like John Clayton and Mike Florio don't take that into account when talking about cap numbers.

Clayton on the cap:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7570116/nfl-plenty-cap-room-improve

It's quite obvious that he's talking about 2012 cap space. Although, he's assuming a 120 million total cap, which means if it turns out to be 125, we will have a bit more to work with.

What I think of when I see John Clayton talking on TV:

http://totallylookslike.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/128760817162036681.jpg

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/9/20/128979739806721029.jpg

steelbtexan
03-06-2012, 08:57 AM
Since I do not have copies of every game I did go back and watch all of the INT's and Sacks and I never saw Barwin or Reed DT'd one time but Watt and Smith got plenty of G/C DT's all season.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans

This may not be game film but you can see the D-line and what's going on the play. What games did you see either Reed or Barwin DT'd (and did it lead to sack or INT)? I only asked if it led to a sack or INT because that's all can view on nfl.com I did not see DT'son Reed or Barwin but plenty of JJ and Antonio.

Ummmm

The way Wades 5-2 defense is set up is for the DL to get double teamed. Which they did. This sets the LB's free to make plays. Watt was such a stud that he made plays despite being double teamed. (Same with Antonio to a lesser degree) Imagine if the Texans added a stud NT this offseason. The defense would be awsome.

And yes Barwin did get his fair share of double teams. That's how Cushing got some of his sacks/pressures. (Stunts) Instead of breaking things down by double teams, people should look at the pressure the Texans got on the QB as a whole. Man it really feels good to have a well coordinated/thought out plan and a DC that is great at making in game adjustments.

Gary could learn a thing or two about in game adjustments on the offensive side of the ball.

steelbtexan
03-06-2012, 09:03 AM
Yeah, thinning out the talent on defense usually makes serious injuries to starters more devestating. Crossing my fingers that we don't have to go through the Braman/Nading experience at any point in 2012.

I'm actually very high on Braman. (not in a shroom kind of way.)

We will see what Wade thinks of Bramans improvement, by how high the Texans draft an OLB. I think it will be the 3rd rd or later. There will still be some very good OLB's left in the 3/4th rd. The draft pick will probably be a high intensity type guy. Lewis/McClelland etc...

GP
03-06-2012, 09:10 AM
Ummmm

The way Wades 5-2 defense is set up is for the DL to get double teamed. Which they did. This sets the LB's free to make plays. Watt was such a stud that he made plays despite being double teamed. (Same with Antonio to a lesser degree) Imagine if the Texans added a stud NT this offseason. The defense would be awsome.

And yes Barwin did get his fair share of double teams. That's how Cushing got some of his sacks/pressures. (Stunts) Instead of breaking things down by double teams, people should look at the pressure the Texans got on the QB as a whole. Man it really feels good to have a well coordinated/thought out plan and a DC that is great at making in game adjustments.

Gary could learn a thing or two about in game adjustments on the offensive side of the ball.

JJ Watt and Brooks Reed contain an inner mechanism that guys like Travis Johnson and Amobi Okoye did not. I believe Antonio Smith is a lot like JJ Watt and Brooks Reed.

The two guys who had the ability to become good (TJ and AO) just never found a way to put it together. We spent a good 2 or 3 years on the TJ project, and then another 2 or 3 years on the Amobi Okoye project. Both guys end up being about 6 years of wasted time on that DL spot they occupied.

The mistake of wrongly pegging a guy in the draft as being "an answer on the DL" was a huge factor in our anemic defense. Enter the 34 D master, Wade Phillips, and he identifies the weaknesses and goes out and promptly grabs a better CB, a better S, and hits home runs on his 1st and 2nd round picks (Watt and Reed, respectively) and the defense is #1 or #2 all year in 2011.

This is why, IMO, if the Texans made the choice of Foster over Mario...and IF Mario ends up walking away...we have to trust that Wade Phillips knows best.

There was a day when Mario Williams represented our only real weapon on defense, in the 43 Defense style before Wade arrived, and we HAD to have Mario on this defense. Now? The focus is now upon three really active DL, which we have in Smith, Watt, and the 3rd guy whomever that is at the moment (Cody or Mitchell) and four lunatic LBs--2 of those LBs are smaller and 2 of them are larger, but all four of them represent a berserker style of crashing running lanes or sneaking through gaps to blitz the QB.

The money will be better for Mario on a team who runs a 43 Defense and needs that ONE guy who can be the double-team drawing DE for them. Period. There will be a team out there who needs him worse than we do.

steelbtexan
03-06-2012, 09:19 AM
& no matter how you substitute any 3 of the bolded in with GB, NE & Det...3 of the most potent offenses in the league led by 3 of the best qb's in the league..it ain't gonna be pretty.

Agreed

This is why the texans should look to the draft to bolster the defense in the draft even more.

If it was me the draft would look something like this.

Rd.1 Gilmore
Rd.2 McClellin
Rd.3 Marvin Jones (If they dont fall in love with Hill/Randle
Rd.4 Chapman

Gotta keep improving the defense.

steelbtexan
03-06-2012, 09:26 AM
JJ Watt and Brooks Reed contain an inner mechanism that guys like Travis Johnson and Amobi Okoye did not. I believe Antonio Smith is a lot like JJ Watt and Brooks Reed.

The two guys who had the ability to become good (TJ and AO) just never found a way to put it together. We spent a good 2 or 3 years on the TJ project, and then another 2 or 3 years on the Amobi Okoye project. Both guys end up being about 6 years of wasted time on that DL spot they occupied.

The mistake of wrongly pegging a guy in the draft as being "an answer on the DL" was a huge factor in our anemic defense. Enter the 34 D master, Wade Phillips, and he identifies the weaknesses and goes out and promptly grabs a better CB, a better S, and hits home runs on his 1st and 2nd round picks (Watt and Reed, respectively) and the defense is #1 or #2 all year in 2011.

This is why, IMO, if the Texans made the choice of Foster over Mario...and IF Mario ends up walking away...we have to trust that Wade Phillips knows best.

There was a day when Mario Williams represented our only real weapon on defense, in the 43 Defense style before Wade arrived, and we HAD to have Mario on this defense. Now? The focus is now upon three really active DL, which we have in Smith, Watt, and the 3rd guy whomever that is at the moment (Cody or Mitchell) and four lunatic LBs--2 of those LBs are smaller and 2 of them are larger, but all four of them represent a berserker style of crashing running lanes or sneaking through gaps to blitz the QB.

The money will be better for Mario on a team who runs a 43 Defense and needs that ONE guy who can be the double-team drawing DE for them. Period. There will be a team out there who needs him worse than we do.

MSR

Great post

This is the way people should be looking at the defense. (As a whole, instead of who's getting pressure and who's not. BTW, I expect Reed to really improve in his 2nd yr. It sure feels good to have a young intense front 7 on defense.

Dutchrudder
03-06-2012, 09:30 AM
I don't respect any of them. It is incredible to me that fans on here collectively consistently know more than these yahoos in the print and radio media. I mean c'mon folks you are on the radio for four hours and this is your chosen profession. It isn't just about getting free access to the games. Learn something. Can't remember which one but I think it was John Granato who was going on and on about how the Texans would take a $20+ mil cap hit if they cut Carr when that was blatantly wrong. I don't blame people for not having deep throat inside sources but at least study your chosen subject.

Nobody? Really? I like some of the sports writers like Clayton, La Canfora, Andrew Brandt, Evan Silva and our own Lance Zerline. They tend to be very accurate from what I have read, but there are those who stick out as being incompetent like McClain or anyone who currently works at 610. McClain's the one that really bugs me though, he has such great contacts and access to the Texans, but couldn't get the inside scoop on a bowl of ice cream.

Big Lou
03-06-2012, 09:56 AM
Nobody? Really? I like some of the sports writers like Clayton, La Canfora, Andrew Brandt, Evan Silva and our own Lance Zerline. They tend to be very accurate from what I have read, but there are those who stick out as being incompetent like McClain or anyone who currently works at 610. McClain's the one that really bugs me though, he has such great contacts and access to the Texans, but couldn't get the inside scoop on a bowl of ice cream.

We need a McClain face palm.........

badboy
03-06-2012, 10:33 AM
You won't find me stating we'd be better of without Mario anywhere. In regards to the financial state of the team, I think the Texans are in pretty good hands. JMO



Legitimate concern, I think, TK.

I think if ya squint just right, this bears out what cbs1507 and I were discussing above. Gotta field the best team with what we have to work with, whatever Rick has to do to get there.Oh! My eyes! Aqua?

False Start
03-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Oh! My eyes! Aqua?

I was gonna say the same thing. Undercover Jags fan? :thinking:

drs23
03-06-2012, 03:08 PM
Leavemealone. I was feeling blue(ish) :D

infantrycak
03-06-2012, 03:32 PM
Nobody? Really? I like some of the sports writers like Clayton, La Canfora, Andrew Brandt, Evan Silva and our own Lance Zerline. They tend to be very accurate from what I have read, but there are those who stick out as being incompetent like McClain or anyone who currently works at 610. McClain's the one that really bugs me though, he has such great contacts and access to the Texans, but couldn't get the inside scoop on a bowl of ice cream.

Well my comment was directed to local sports reporting figures. Heck not too long ago Zierlein made the idiotic assertion it doesn't matter who plays with you on a defensive line you just have to beat the guy across from you mano a mano. Previously I had found him somewhat grating in delivery but fairly knowledgeable but that was just an ignorant assertion.

Corrosion
03-06-2012, 05:02 PM
Nobody? Really? I like some of the sports writers like Clayton, La Canfora, Andrew Brandt, Evan Silva and our own Lance Zerline. They tend to be very accurate from what I have read, but there are those who stick out as being incompetent like McClain or anyone who currently works at 610. McClain's the one that really bugs me though, he has such great contacts and access to the Texans, but couldn't get the inside scoop on a bowl of ice cream.

McLain has never had an inside line to the Texans orginization. His ties were to the Oilers ... Once they left town , he should have followed as since , all hehas stated is opinion and reported after the fact.

My sources are better than McLain's ....



.... and from my understanding they are close to a deal with Foster (take that for what its worth).

damnit , I quoted myself .... :mariopalm:

Well my comment was directed to local sports reporting figures. Heck not too long ago Zierlein made the idiotic assertion it doesn't matter who plays with you on a defensive line you just have to beat the guy across from you mano a mano. Previously I had found him somewhat grating in delivery but fairly knowledgeable but that was just an ignorant assertion.

Surprised you could be fooled by that guy .... He's no more knowledgeable than the average fan .... He's just a fan with a louder voice than most since he gets to share it in the media.

thunderkyss
03-06-2012, 05:15 PM
Look, I hope you're right and the Texans have 50 gazillion dollars to spend, but I just don't see it happening. If you have a good source that says otherwise, please link it, cause I haven't seen it.

Here is a post, from another thread..



these were the numbers I had for 2012
Player Salary Cap Hit
J Joseph $7.250 $9.750
M Schaub $7.150 $8.316
A Johnson $6.500 $9.328
O Daniels $6.500 $6.500
D Ryans $5.900 $7.150
A Smith $5.500 $8.000
E Winston $5.500 $5.500
D Manning $5.000 $5.000
J Jones $4.791 $4.941
K Walter $3.500 $3.500
M Leinart $3.000 $3.000
S Cody $2.250 $2.250
W Smith $2.000 $2.000
R. Butler $1.533 $2.158
B Cushing $1.153 $2.359
JJ Watt $0.856 $2.524
D Brown $0.781 $1.362
K Jackson $0.700 $2.013
G Quin $0.565 $0.607
C Barwin $0.565 $0.917
A Caldwell $0.565 $0.766
J Casey $0.565 $0.611
T Jamison $0.565 $0.569
B McCain $0.565 $0.591
B Harris $0.546 $0.771
B Reed $0.546 $0.884
E Mitchell $0.490 $0.899
D Sharpton $0.490 $0.624
G Graham $0.490 $0.821
S McManis $0.490 $0.538
S Smith $0.490 $0.516
B Tate $0.490 $0.490
R Carmichael $0.490 $0.589
D Newton $0.465 $0.489
TJ Yates $0.465 $0.511
J Nading $0.555
S Keo $0.555
T Nolan $0.565
B Braman $0.490
M Alexander $0.490
B Hartmann $0.490
L Jean $0.490
J Maehl $0.490
A Gardner $0.490


That's $101.469M

Foster's deal adds $8M..... Okoye & Slaton, probably work out to be about $4M of dead money. Say we set aside $4M for our draft picks. So we're looking at $117M

$7M in cap space, without any cuts or Re negotiations. & 10 Roster spots to go.



That looks a lot closer to what the "experts" have been saying, but that also includes Foster's new deal. What do you think?

GP
03-06-2012, 05:38 PM
What I think of when I see John Clayton talking on TV:

http://totallylookslike.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/128760817162036681.jpg

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/9/20/128979739806721029.jpg

http://atomicgator.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/sleestak.jpg

GP
03-06-2012, 05:41 PM
FTW:

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/1/16/128765885317628234.jpg

Texecutioner
03-06-2012, 06:10 PM
Best thing about signing Foster is that we won't "waste" money on Mario Williams for another season and he can go play half the time on another team now. We can use that money we would have paid him on other players we need to resign and other players at positions that we still have needs at. Great deal for the Texans to move forward now.

fans can move on from the Mario Williams hype as well now, because if Mario Williams had been on another team all these years there is no way in hell the majority of people on this board and in the Texan fan base would have been clamoring to sign this guy right now when we already had the best pass rush in Texans history without him and we can find other pass rushers for this system a lot easier now. No way fans would have wanted this organization to pay that kind of money to a guy who isn't even an elite pass rusher, but since he's already been a Texan, fans have had a confused idea about what is better for this team right now and Mario definitely isn't it.

We have other needs that we can hopefully address now which is CB, S, WR, and in the trenches. Hopefully management doesn't half ass it like they have in years past and gets some quality free agents like they finally did last season. That was the difference in the Texans this year along with Wade's arrival and his draft picks.

jaayteetx
03-06-2012, 06:18 PM
Isn't this thread supposed to be about Mario movement rumors? Just checking.

Wolf
03-06-2012, 07:23 PM
Mario Williams likely on move; Bolts could pursue

It is considered practically a given around the league that Mario Williams will be playing for a new team in 2012.

And, sure, that team could be the Chargers, who have essentially vowed to add at least one pass rusher this offseason.

The Chargers believe that just a healthy Larry English will enable Travis LaBoy, Antwan Barnes and Shaun Phillips to be more effective. But while they expect English back in their outside linebacker rotation, they don’t know what to expect from the player who has missed most of the past two seasons with a foot injury.

It is still considered more likely they take a pass rusher in the draft.

The Houston Texans are prepared to move on without Williams, who had 43½ sacks from 2007-10 playing defensive end in a 4-3 defense and then had five sacks in five games in 2011 as Houston moved to a 3-4 under new coordinator Wade Phillips. Williams only played the five games due to a torn pectoral that landed him on injured reserve.

Meanwhile, the Chargers have assigned an (unknown) price they would be willing to pay for Williams.

The Chargers did talk with Ben Dogra, Williams’ agent, at the Combine. But Dogra is among the biggest agents in the business, and it is not known if Williams was discussed.

However, while A.J. Smith has stressed his “philosophy has not changed” regarding free agency, neither he nor anyone else will rule out the Chargers pursuing Williams.http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/mar/06/mario-williams-likely-move-bolts-could-pursue/

Wolf
03-06-2012, 07:28 PM
Sources: Manning, Williams on Broncos’ Radar

Broncos like most NFL teams will mull over whether or not to sign Peyton Manning. It's highly doubtful Broncos sign Manning though.

Denver is also interested in Houston Texans defensive end/outside linebacker Mario Williams, as was confirmed by ESPN‘s Mark Clayton earlier in the week. Williams missed most of last season due to injury and is expected to test the free agent market this month.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2012/3/2/2839537/sources-manning-williams-on-broncos-radar

Rey
03-06-2012, 07:31 PM
So pretty much the entire NFL save a few teams is interested in Mario Williams...

Ok....we get it...:clown:

TexanSam
03-06-2012, 07:43 PM
Best thing about signing Foster is that we won't "waste" money on Mario Williams for another season and he can go play half the time on another team now. We can use that money we would have paid him on other players we need to resign and other players at positions that we still have needs at. Great deal for the Texans to move forward now.

fans can move on from the Mario Williams hype as well now, because if Mario Williams had been on another team all these years there is no way in hell the majority of people on this board and in the Texan fan base would have been clamoring to sign this guy right now when we already had the best pass rush in Texans history without him and we can find other pass rushers for this system a lot easier now. No way fans would have wanted this organization to pay that kind of money to a guy who isn't even an elite pass rusher, but since he's already been a Texan, fans have had a confused idea about what is better for this team right now and Mario definitely isn't it.

We have other needs that we can hopefully address now which is CB, S, WR, and in the trenches. Hopefully management doesn't half ass it like they have in years past and gets some quality free agents like they finally did last season. That was the difference in the Texans this year along with Wade's arrival and his draft picks.

I agree with you for the most part. I think Williams is going to be overpaid by whoever signs him. And while he's been a very good player for us, I don't think he's going to be worth the kind of money that he's going to command. If we were well below the cap and signing him wouldn't stop us from resigning our other free agents, then I'd be all for bringing him back. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

Also agree that he's not an elite pass rusher. He's a very good one, but not elite. Close, but not quite there.

thunderkyss
03-06-2012, 07:43 PM
Denver is also interested in Houston Texans defensive end/outside linebacker Mario Williams, as was confirmed by ESPN‘s Mark Clayton earlier in the week. Williams missed most of last season due to injury and is expected to test the free agent market this month.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2012/3/2/2839537/sources-manning-williams-on-broncos-radar

But... but... they've already got Dummerville & Von Miller.

:kitten:

Mr teX
03-06-2012, 07:44 PM
http://www.milehighreport.com/2012/3/2/2839537/sources-manning-williams-on-broncos-radar

Dumervil on 1 side...Miller on the other...Williams anchoring that DL....nasty.

jaayteetx
03-06-2012, 07:46 PM
Dumervil on 1 side...Miller on the other...Williams anchoring that DL....nasty.

Yep, but it would be all about "Tebow just finding a way to win"...

Wolf
03-06-2012, 07:52 PM
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/mar/06/mario-williams-likely-move-bolts-could-pursue/

anyone know what the Bolts cap situation looks like?

Dutchrudder
03-06-2012, 10:42 PM
Here is a post, from another thread..

That looks a lot closer to what the "experts" have been saying, but that also includes Foster's new deal. What do you think?

I think that Sportrac is a good estimate, but not nearly as accurate as people with actual NFL connections. I tried playing with the numbers myself this offseason, and I got 98 million in capspace obligations as well. I would imagine the restructures are not accounted for, nor personal incentives earned. They go by what is reported, not insider info.

ObsiWan
03-07-2012, 03:41 AM
Isn't it still true that the NFL and the NFLPA are still working on what the cap ought to be?? So how can anyone say how much cap room we do or don't have when the cap hasn't actually been set???
:kubepalm:

Maddict5
03-07-2012, 04:14 AM
Isn't it still true that the NFL and the NFLPA are still working on what the cap ought to be?? So how can anyone say how much cap room we do or don't have when the cap hasn't actually been set???
:kubepalm:

the exact figure hasnt been set yet but its gonna be in the 120m ballpark, which is generally what ppl are working with. its not going to come out that they cap is actually 130 or 140m or anything

Ole Miss Texan
03-07-2012, 10:11 AM
Teams can also borrower a few million dollars from a future year... but I think that's a very VERY dangerous thing to do and I would strongly urge the Texans not to do that. We're just going to have to sign Brown, Cushing, Barwin, etc to new contracts and that's going to impact our cap significantly. Those are 3 guys we HAVE to keep.

Lucky
03-07-2012, 10:13 AM
Teams can also borrower a few million dollars from a future year... but I think that's a very VERY dangerous thing to do and I would strongly urge the Texans not to do that.

The cap will go up, way up, once the new TV deal goes into effect. It would be foolish not to take advantage of the opportunity to borrow against next year's cap.

Ole Miss Texan
03-07-2012, 02:23 PM
The cap will go up, way up, once the new TV deal goes into effect. It would be foolish not to take advantage of the opportunity to borrow against next year's cap.

Only 50% goes towards players' salaries and at that it only goes up incrementally each year. Likely won't go into effect next season anyways.

Plus we're going to need all the room we can get in the future as the contracts/cap hits of our recently restructured guys (Antonio, Demeco, AJ?) continually increase and adding in the new soon-to-be contract extensions of Foster (just happened), Duane Brown, Brian Cushin, Connor Barwin. If you think we're tight against the cap now, just wait. Even with the eventual cap increases.

gafftop
03-07-2012, 03:33 PM
Not really sure what the discussion is now. Are you still trying to figure out how to clear cap to sign Mario. It seems as though some of the restructuring done last year to sign JJ an Manning increased our cap hit for this year I guess.
Knowing this the FO should have known there was no way they could sign Mario this year, even more so than I ever thought back in April of last year.

The problem with doing this (getting rid of Mario last year) was that the FO and coaching staff was on the HOT seat to win last year. Getting rid of Mario for players and draft picks last year would not have helped them win last year even though obviously now for the growth of the team it would have been the right thing to do.

Mario seemed to be pretty good guy off the field. Sure have seen his donated Police cars on the roads lately.

leebigeztx
03-07-2012, 05:07 PM
From all my emails with kirwan and gil, right now the texans have 4.7m of cap room. When 1201 of free agency, they will have 31m of cap room.

El Tejano
03-08-2012, 10:22 AM
From all my emails with kirwan and gil, right now the texans have 4.7m of cap room. When 1201 of free agency, they will have 31m of cap room.

How's that. Sorry if I haven't been keeping up.

leebigeztx
03-08-2012, 10:31 AM
How's that. Sorry if I haven't been keeping up.

All the contracts come off the books at 1201. All of the ufa become ufas at midnight Tuesday. That means mario 18m,meyers,3m,jason allen 2m,d ward,1.5m, and all the other players. Now unlike the nba, there aren't any holds or renouncing to use the money. At first, I thought this deal had to be done before free agency,but the more I think about it, they could have a deal lined up right now and are waiting for 1201 to offer mario and meyers

ckhouston
03-08-2012, 10:46 AM
All the contracts come off the books at 1201. All of the ufa become ufas at midnight Tuesday. That means mario 18m,meyers,3m,jason allen 2m,d ward,1.5m, and all the other players. Now unlike the nba, there aren't any holds or renouncing to use the money. At first, I thought this deal had to be done before free agency,but the more I think about it, they could have a deal lined up right now and are waiting for 1201 to offer mario and meyers

I would do back-flips if they signed Mario, Myers, and Briesel at 12:01. Ok, maybe not literally or I would end up in traction, but in my head I would be a flipping fool. :aikido:

Dutchrudder
03-08-2012, 11:08 AM
All the contracts come off the books at 1201. All of the ufa become ufas at midnight Tuesday. That means mario 18m,meyers,3m,jason allen 2m,d ward,1.5m, and all the other players. Now unlike the nba, there aren't any holds or renouncing to use the money. At first, I thought this deal had to be done before free agency,but the more I think about it, they could have a deal lined up right now and are waiting for 1201 to offer mario and meyers

If that's true, then Foster eats up 7.5 million of that 31, bringing it down to 23.5 million. That's probably why Mario isn't re-signed yet, not enough dough to go around.

I think Myers is going to stay with the Texans. They traded for him, they made him who he is now, and he lives here in Houston with his family (wife and 2 kids). Him and his wife recently celebrated their 10 year anniversary, and look what he got her for it (from Facebook):

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/64792_725524635852_20105394_35722040_224619361_n.j pg


Isn't that sweet? You know that's going up on the wall in their living room. Why would he go have that picture made if he wasn't going to be wearing that uniform in the future?

I think he's going to have his agent get offers lined up from the Packers or Broncos and Orlando Pace/Leigh Bodden them. Use those offers as leverage against the Texans, and let them match it. :D

Ryan
03-08-2012, 11:15 AM
FWIW

Lance Zierlein ‏ @LanceZierlein
Have had two people who are working on Mario's house tell me that he (Mario) believes he'll still be a Texan. We shall see.

El Tejano
03-08-2012, 11:27 AM
FWIW

Lance Zierlein ‏ @LanceZierlein
Have had two people who are working on Mario's house tell me that he (Mario) believes he'll still be a Texan. We shall see.

I'd be happy with this.

leebigeztx
03-08-2012, 11:55 AM
If that's true, then Foster eats up 7.5 million of that 31, bringing it down to 23.5 million. That's probably why Mario isn't re-signed yet, not enough dough to go around.

I think Myers is going to stay with the Texans. They traded for him, they made him who he is now, and he lives here in Houston with his family (wife and 2 kids). Him and his wife recently celebrated their 10 year anniversary, and look what he got her for it (from Facebook):

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/64792_725524635852_20105394_35722040_224619361_n.j pg


Isn't that sweet? You know that's going up on the wall in their living room. Why would he go have that picture made if he wasn't going to be wearing that uniform in the future?

I think he's going to have his agent get offers lined up from the Packers or Broncos and Orlando Pace/Leigh Bodden them. Use those offers as leverage against the Texans, and let them match it. :D

23m is alot of money to go around. Part of the lockout was small revenue vs large revenue teams. Texans,cowboys,nyg,nyj and all the big revenue teams can get better players under the same cap because of the signing bonus. The signing bonus is cash over cap. Basically, money pulled from the revenue generated or money out of the owners pocket. 23m for a high revenue team vs a small revenue team is huge. Here is an example and I hope the non mario people only take this as an example and not the deal.

Texans offer mario a 6yr 80m contract with 42m guaranteed. In this guarantee, he gets a 36m signing bonus. They spread the sb over the 6yrs of the deal and in the 1st yr, he has a $1m salary.

Year-Salary-Bonus-Cap Charge
2012-1m-6m-7m
2013-6m-6m-12m
2014-8m-6m-14m
2015-8m-6m-14m
2016-10m-6m-16m
2017-11m-6m-17m

A small revenue team cant give a big signing bonus like that, so what they do is guarantee the 1st 3 yrs. Thats why the players in oakland have these bloated salaries that were guaranteed. A big revenue team like the texans can give out these bonuses and spread it out. Also, the new tv contract kicks in 2014 and the cap is suppose to jump to 190m. in the 1st 3 yrs of the deal, mario will pocket 51m for an average of 17m per yr. That leaves 17m to still do meyers and others. They did that without cutting players yet either. Teams like buffalo,jags,and chargers cant give the huge signing bonus because they are not a big revenue team.

b0ng
03-08-2012, 01:07 PM
FWIW

Lance Zierlein ‏ @LanceZierlein
Have had two people who are working on Mario's house tell me that he (Mario) believes he'll still be a Texan. We shall see.


RT @JayDirt_: @LanceZierlein @MJ4Sports I’m going on record, my sources say Mario will be a Texan. They are working on the deal now

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/d/dd/Yes_yes.gif/180px-Yes_yes.gif

Thorn
03-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Good news, I hope it pans out.

Blake
03-08-2012, 02:18 PM
:doot:

(This little guy actually jams out if you have some tunes on.) True story.

Mr teX
03-08-2012, 03:25 PM
everyone's got a reason why it can't happen...what about the reasons it can?

If they manage to get all these guys back, i don't want to hear anyone complaining about us only drafting good character guys anymore b/c chances are at least 3 of these guys took less money to be here. Because that would be the payoff for taking guys like that....true professionals & team guys. Guys willing to restructure contracts to help get other guys in, guys willing to take a little less to help get others guys in, guys willing to switch positions for the better of the team..

Arian taking less than he could've held the texans up for...
This rumor about Mario working on something with the texans that will likely be less than what he could command out on the market..

and now this rumor about AJ restructuring to help us get a little cap room..

gotta love the team 1st atmosphere

arb729
03-08-2012, 04:10 PM
Just a quick question: assuming the money is worked out, meaning we can sign Mario without sacrificing Myers/Briesel, who doesn't want that to happen and why? In the NFL, where there's a will to clear cap room, there's almost always a way.

infantrycak
03-08-2012, 04:18 PM
Just a quick question: assuming the money is worked out, meaning we can sign Mario without sacrificing Myers/Briesel, who doesn't want that to happen and why? In the NFL, where there's a will to clear cap room, there's almost always a way.

Search for posts by dalemurphy - you will see the prime example.

HOU-TEX
03-08-2012, 04:39 PM
Search for posts by dalemurphy - you will see the prime example of poor football logic.

Sorry I-Cak, I just had to steal your comment and add to it a little

Mr teX
03-08-2012, 04:45 PM
Sorry I-Cak, I just had to steal your comment and add to it a little

its not necessarily poor football logic...

Mr teX
03-08-2012, 04:46 PM
Sorry I-Cak, I just had to steal your comment and add to it a little

its not necessarily poor football logic...just closet haterade is all. For instance, 1 of his main reasons for not wanting to bring mario back is b/c he's injury prone; he's quick to point out that Mario has finish the season on IR the last 2 years...Ok.

Mike Brisiel has finished the season on IR twice in the last 3 years & has missed more games than mario in his career due to injury....yet he advocates resigning him. his rationale? their was a noticable drop off. Really? The last colts game in we lost arian had 123 yds rushing. we know what arian did in 2010 without him...

Playoffs
03-08-2012, 06:23 PM
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
NFL Network's @JasonLaCanfora on Mario Williams: "Look for #Falcons to make a strong run for him. ... I'd look for them to be aggressive."

dalemurphy
03-08-2012, 09:38 PM
its not necessarily poor football logic...just closet haterade is all. For instance, 1 of his main reasons for not wanting to bring mario back is b/c he's injury prone; he's quick to point out that Mario has finish the season on IR the last 2 years...Ok.

Mike Brisiel has finished the season on IR twice in the last 3 years & has missed more games than mario in his career due to injury....yet he advocates resigning him. his rationale? their was a noticable drop off. Really? The last colts game in we lost arian had 123 yds rushing. we know what arian did in 2010 without him...

If we could sign Mario to a 2 year $5 million deal, I would do it in a second. There is nothing illogical or hateful about believing it is irresponsible football business to give Mario a contract approaching $100 million.

If Brisiel was holding out for significant money I would be for cutting him loose, certainly. Though I believe Chris Myers is a key re-signing, if he holds out for elite center money, I think it is wise to move on from him as well. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is sound logic.

dalemurphy
03-08-2012, 09:45 PM
Just a quick question: assuming the money is worked out, meaning we can sign Mario without sacrificing Myers/Briesel, who doesn't want that to happen and why? In the NFL, where there's a will to clear cap room, there's almost always a way.

I want the Texans to do business with long term and sustained success in mind. Of the teams that have been able to sustain success over the course of 10+ years (New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore), they do not pay elite dollars to any players other than the QB. Teams can mortgage the future and sign players for the short term but there is a day of reckoning. Pittsburgh is experiencing some of that this year after starting to move away from their frugal philosophy the past two years. I realize the Texans could get their players signed for 2012. However, 2013 and 2014 free agents will cause a great deal of cap issues that will eventually cost the Texans dearly if they are carrying Mario's contract with them (Matt Schaub, Duane Brown, Connor Barwin, Glover Quin, Brian Cushing, Ben Tate, among others) I don't think Mario is important enough to cause/help cause that day of reckoning.

Mr teX
03-08-2012, 09:51 PM
i want the texans to do business with long term and sustained success in mind. of the teams that have been able to sustain success over the course of 10+ years (new england, pittsburgh, baltimore), they do not pay elite dollars to any players other than the qb. teams can mortgage the future and sign players for the short term but there is a day of reckoning. Pittsburgh is experiencing some of that this year after starting to move away from their frugal philosophy the past two years. I realize the texans could get their players signed for 2012. However, 2013 and 2014 free agents will cause a great deal of cap issues that will eventually cost the texans dearly if they are carrying mario's contract with them (matt schaub, duane brown, connor barwin, glover quin, brian cushing, ben tate, among others) i don't think mario is important enough to cause/help cause that day of reckoning.

the bolded is simply not true!

infantrycak
03-08-2012, 09:53 PM
I want the Texans to do business with long term and sustained success in mind. Of the teams that have been able to sustain success over the course of 10+ years (New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore), they do not pay elite dollars to any players other than the QB.

That simply is not true. What those teams do for frugality is not to be the team who signs a player to has last long term big money deal covering the declining part of his career. Exactly what McNair said last year before free agency and was excoriated for. Mario is not a 31-33 year old Mathis or Freeny looking for a long term contract he has no hope of playing out.

Kaiser Toro
03-08-2012, 10:04 PM
I want the Texans to do business with long term and sustained success in mind. Of the teams that have been able to sustain success over the course of 10+ years (New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore), they do not pay elite dollars to any players other than the QB. Teams can mortgage the future and sign players for the short term but there is a day of reckoning. Pittsburgh is experiencing some of that this year after starting to move away from their frugal philosophy the past two years. I realize the Texans could get their players signed for 2012. However, 2013 and 2014 free agents will cause a great deal of cap issues that will eventually cost the Texans dearly if they are carrying Mario's contract with them (Matt Schaub, Duane Brown, Connor Barwin, Glover Quin, Brian Cushing, Ben Tate, among others) I don't think Mario is important enough to cause/help cause that day of reckoning.

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives. :kubepalm:

dalemurphy
03-08-2012, 11:37 PM
the bolded is simply not true!

Show the examples?

Of all those teams, I believe the most expensive contract is the Lamar Woodley deal: 6 and $61... by the way, it was done during an uncapped year. Who else? show me, please.

The Patriots overpayed for Adalius Thomas years ago and got out from under that contract as fast as possible. When the highly regarded A. Samuel became a free agent, they let him walk as they have with almost every player of theirs that has reached free agency and been highly sought after by other NFL teams.

Last time, I believe you tried to prove this point with Rodney Harrison, who had signed a 4 year deal with New England for $13 million.

If I'm wrong, show me!

Oh yeah, Troy Polamalu for 4 yrs and $36 million. Is that the monster deal? If we can get Mario for that, I'm fine with it.

dalemurphy
03-08-2012, 11:39 PM
Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives. :kubepalm:

Until I'Cak decided to say that I'm the prime example for poor football logic, I was finished with this thread. I'm waiting to hear what the poor logic is?

dalemurphy
03-08-2012, 11:44 PM
That simply is not true. What those teams do for frugality is not to be the team who signs a player to has last long term big money deal covering the declining part of his career. Exactly what McNair said last year before free agency and was excoriated for. Mario is not a 31-33 year old Mathis or Freeny looking for a long term contract he has no hope of playing out.

They don't sign monster deals, period, apart from their franchise Quarterback. Still, let's look at your argument. What has Mario done in the last 3 years to indicate he is an ascending, not descending player? He is young. That's true. However, his best season was in 2007 and he has declined, markedly, every season since. While I will acknowledge that the decline is largely due to injury, isn't that exactly what causes formerly great players to rapidly decline?

Why would anyone think Mario's best years are ahead of him? His last good season has been followed by three unimpressive seasons, each one less impressive than the previous. Is that the kind of trend you reward with a huge contract? Where is the football logic in that?

infantrycak
03-09-2012, 12:53 AM
They don't sign monster deals, period, apart from their franchise Quarterback.

Wrong. Adalious Thomas to the Pats who also just franchised Welker and signed Mankins to a big contract. Polamalu signing an almost ten mil per year deal last year as a safety with the Steelers. Ngata signed a big deal with the Ravens. The teams you mention pay big bucks on positions other than QB when they think the talent is still there. They don't pay for has beens.

I've seen the rest of your arguments about Mario too many times and am not going to rehash them.

DocBar
03-09-2012, 01:02 AM
Wrong. Adalious Thomas to the Pats who also just franchised Welker and signed Mankins to a big contract. Polamalu signing an almost ten mil per year deal last year as a safety with the Steelers. Ngata signed a big deal with the Ravens. The teams you mention pay big bucks on positions other than QB when they think the talent is still there. They don't pay for has beens.

I've seen the rest of your arguments about Mario too many times and am not going to rehash them.Most of his arguments are valid. Just because there are teams willing to pay elite wages to an above average player doesn't make the player elite. It only makes his salary elite.

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 01:09 AM
Wrong. Adalious Thomas to the Pats who also just franchised Welker and signed Mankins to a big contract. Polamalu signing an almost ten mil per year deal last year as a safety with the Steelers. Ngata signed a big deal with the Ravens. The teams you mention pay big bucks on positions other than QB when they think the talent is still there. They don't pay for has beens.

I've seen the rest of your arguments about Mario too many times and am not going to rehash them.

I love the Foster signing: 5 and $43mil... We aren't talking about that, or Polamalu 4 and $36mil... love that too. We're talking about something north of Charles Johnson 6yrs and $72 million. That I don't like. Those numbers are real problems. Again, if Mario signs for Polamalu's $9 mill for 4 years, I'll be thrilled with that.

Obviously, the franchise tag has nothing to do with this discussion. Mario can't get tagged. And, the franchise tag doesn't mortgage the future the way a monster contract can.

I don't have the Mankins numbers in front of me... I think it was a $20 million signing bonus and a deal that was roughly 6 yrs and $50 million. That's a good-sized contract. Looking at it now, it is back-loaded with $7 million in salary each of the final two years. Therefore, he'll never see the final season of that deal. Like the Steelers, the Pats have payed very good players some significant contracts... But, nothing approaching/exceeding $15 million per year for 5 or more years. If the Texans can get Mario signed to a 4 or 5 year deal for less than $10 million per year, I'm all for it. Is that what you think will happen?

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 01:10 AM
Wrong. Adalious Thomas to the Pats who also just franchised Welker and signed Mankins to a big contract. Polamalu signing an almost ten mil per year deal last year as a safety with the Steelers. Ngata signed a big deal with the Ravens. The teams you mention pay big bucks on positions other than QB when they think the talent is still there. They don't pay for has beens.

I've seen the rest of your arguments about Mario too many times and am not going to rehash them.

I love the Foster signing: 5 and $43mil... We aren't talking about that, or Polamalu 4 and $36mil... love that too. We're talking about something north of Charles Johnson 6yrs and $72 million. That I don't like. Those numbers are real problems. Again, if Mario signs for Polamalu's $9 mill for 4 years, I'll be thrilled with that.

Obviously, the franchise tag has nothing to do with this discussion. Mario can't get tagged. And, the franchise tag doesn't mortgage the future the way a monster contract can.

I don't have the Mankins numbers in front of me... I think it was a $20 million signing bonus and a deal that was roughly 6 yrs and $50 million. That's a good-sized contract. Looking at it now, it is back-loaded with $7 million in salary each of the final two years. Therefore, he'll never see the final season of that deal. Like the Steelers, the Pats have payed very good players some significant contracts... But, nothing approaching/exceeding $15 million per year for 5 or more years. If the Texans can get Mario signed to a 4 or 5 year deal for less than $10 million per year, I'm all for it. Is that what you think will happen?

infantrycak
03-09-2012, 01:24 AM
Most of his arguments are valid. Just because there are teams willing to pay elite wages to an above average player doesn't make the player elite. It only makes his salary elite.

Try reading back through. He made a specific argument about certain teams only paying top dollar for QB's and it isn't true. And I made no argument players don't get overpaid at times.

And dale you should know better than to suggest any player is a must sign at any cost player in my opinion. I have trumpeted for years that every team has to decide a top dollar amount and if the player won't take it let them walk no matter how good they are. But really you have gone over the top on this Mario thing and it is coming across as a vendetta. It's one thing to say "I don't think an OLB is worth more than $11 mil per year no matter what" and another to spend the time and volume of posts you have on trying to encourage other people who similarly have no control over the situation that Mario should be released. Everybody in the TT world got it and has heard the same arguments as of six months ago. It has become a broken record you inject into everything. "We could sign a better long snapper if only we would release Mario."

PS - if Mankins doesn't decline severely $7 mil will be considered a bargain rather than getting cut.

Kaiser Toro
03-09-2012, 06:13 AM
If we could sign Mario to a 2 year $5 million deal, I would do it in a second. There is nothing illogical or hateful about believing it is irresponsible football business to give Mario a contract approaching $100 million.

If Brisiel was holding out for significant money I would be for cutting him loose, certainly. Though I believe Chris Myers is a key re-signing, if he holds out for elite center money, I think it is wise to move on from him as well. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is sound logic.

Until I'Cak decided to say that I'm the prime example for poor football logic, I was finished with this thread. I'm waiting to hear what the poor logic is?

Dale, I like your passion, and fandom, but lately the scat you have been throwing at the wall is falling through your fingers and only sticking to you. Seriously, 2 year 5M deal for Mario? This is absurd.

Moreover, you continually say you know how contracts work, and I want to continue to believe you do. Consequently, why are you stuck on $100M, or any large number amount for a contract, when you know it is window dressing to stroke egos, and not the real value of the contract as it pertains to money in pocket, and cap implications?

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 06:42 AM
Dale, I like your passion, and fandom, but lately the scat you have been throwing at the wall is falling through your fingers and only sticking to you. Seriously, 2 year 5M deal for Mario? This is absurd.

Moreover, you continually say you know how contracts work, and I want to continue to believe you do. Consequently, why are you stuck on $100M, or any large number amount for a contract, when you know it is window dressing to stroke egos, and not the real value of the contract as it pertains to money in pocket, and cap implications?

I am assuming that the Mario deal will include a large signing bonus and other stipulations that will virtually guarantee he sees the majority of the contract and consequently, that contract will severely limit and obstruct the Texans in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016, at least.

I think he will be offered a deal like this, at least:

6 yrs $84 million; $40 million guaranteed with a $25 million signing bonus. That kind of contract will cause problems for a number of years, IMO.

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 06:48 AM
Try reading back through. He made a specific argument about certain teams only paying top dollar for QB's and it isn't true. And I made no argument players don't get overpaid at times.

And dale you should know better than to suggest any player is a must sign at any cost player in my opinion. I have trumpeted for years that every team has to decide a top dollar amount and if the player won't take it let them walk no matter how good they are. But really you have gone over the top on this Mario thing and it is coming across as a vendetta. It's one thing to say "I don't think an OLB is worth more than $11 mil per year no matter what" and another to spend the time and volume of posts you have on trying to encourage other people who similarly have no control over the situation that Mario should be released. Everybody in the TT world got it and has heard the same arguments as of six months ago. It has become a broken record you inject into everything. "We could sign a better long snapper if only we would release Mario."

PS - if Mankins doesn't decline severely $7 mil will be considered a bargain rather than getting cut.


I never said anyone should be re-signed at any cost.

I never said Mario should get released. I don't think he should be re-signed.

By the way, I'm not arguing with myself. This thread is titled "What to do with Mario" and the arguments have continued both ways. I hadn't posted in it for a couple days until you drug my name up again. If you are tired of the arguments, perhaps you shouldn't read them or encourage them to continue. It's not as if everyone isn't also aware why fans want to keep Mario and why they think it could work. Yet, those arguments have continued as well. Why not chastise them to stop repeating themselves? ...Oh, because you agree with them.

Mr teX
03-09-2012, 07:27 AM
They don't sign monster deals, period, apart from their franchise Quarterback. Still, let's look at your argument. What has Mario done in the last 3 years to indicate he is an ascending, not descending player? He is young. That's true. However, his best season was in 2007 and he has declined, markedly, every season since. While I will acknowledge that the decline is largely due to injury, isn't that exactly what causes formerly great players to rapidly decline?

Why would anyone think Mario's best years are ahead of him? His last good season has been followed by three unimpressive seasons, each one less impressive than the previous. Is that the kind of trend you reward with a huge contract? Where is the football logic in that?

Why?

b/c he's finally got a team around him worth a damn...
b/c he's still young
b/c he HAS produced at a high level
b/c of his start last year.
b/c he is an elite talent.
b/c he still led the team in sacks 5 weeks after he went down last year.
b/c noone who replaced him last year came close to his best year.
b/c im damn sure wade, gary and bob all want him back......to a point

and on..and on..

also stop being obtuse..any contract of any amount can cause problems down the road it's not just the "monster" 100 million dollar contracts you're talking about. see our quandry with demeco and daniels right now. Contracts are also relative to the position. Just b/c you don't sign a kicker to 100 million dollars doesn't mean that that kicker can't sign a contract that pays him elite money for his position. And that's the reason why those polamalu, Suggs and Mankins contracts ARE relavant to this discussion.

and yes it's true that injury forces guys to retire....more often than not though, it's b/c guys just can;t play anymore......see emmitt smith running in quicksand in arizona...see jerry rice unable to separate in seattle and denver.

i understand where you're coming from logic wise......you're just overploaying your hand.......as usual.

HOU-TEX
03-09-2012, 10:01 AM
Until I'Cak decided to say that I'm the prime example for poor football logic, I was finished with this thread. I'm waiting to hear what the poor logic is?

I added that to I-Caks post.

thunderkyss
03-09-2012, 10:03 AM
And, the franchise tag doesn't mortgage the future the way a monster contract can.


Signing Mario to a "fair" deal won't mortgage the future. Just like signing Jjo last year, Arian this year, Schaub, & Aj back in the day, didn't mortgage the future.

The salary cap will go up.

The teams you mentioned... as has been said does not prove your point. The Steelers are in cap hell now, & they are a fading team as is the Pats. When those teams were on top, it wasn't just Ben & Brady getting paid.

The numbers were more in line with salaries of the time. Now we are in a goofy situation where the cap has gone down & our stars are hitting their prime.

I don't know how "large" their contracts are, but Suggs, Ray Lewis, & Reed are among the highest paid players at their position. They're also going to sign Ray Rice, this year or next & if Torry Smith turns out to be what he looks like he's going to be, they're going to pay him as well.

People want to point at guys like Seymour & say, "See, they'll let a player like that go." But Seymour had just finished his 8th year & there were questions of his ability to play on the outside. He went to Oakland & they started off playing him inside at the much cheaper DT position.

Seymour has been very productive lately.... the Pats simply guessed wrong on that one.

infantrycak
03-09-2012, 10:29 AM
I never said anyone should be re-signed at any cost.

Who said you did? Reading is fundamental. I was stating my opinion which is why the sentence ended in "in my opinion."

I never said Mario should get released. I don't think he should be re-signed.

LOL talk about distinctions without merit.

Why not chastise them to stop repeating themselves? ...Oh, because you agree with them.

For such a regular it would seem you would read instead of assume. A pretty new member of the MB asked a question about why some people didn't want to retain Mario. Without any judgement on your position I pointed out your posts as an example of the reasons not to keep Mario. You can feel mocked instead of respected in that regard - either way I don't care how far up your bum your panties are. We could have a poll for who is the leading "I don't want Mario" guy in the forum and you would get 90% of the votes. That's fine. Be comfortable being identified as such.

ThaShark316
03-09-2012, 02:09 PM
2006 marches on. :doot:

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 03:36 PM
You can feel mocked instead of respected in that regard - either way I don't care how far up your bum your panties are. We could have a poll for who is the leading "I don't want Mario" guy in the forum and you would get 90% of the votes. That's fine. Be comfortable being identified as such.


I don't mind being mocked. I simply find it disingenuous to continue the argument or lure me back into it and then complain about the argument continuing. This is a message board. This is the appropriate thread to discuss it. If you are frustrated with my responses then you can simply not read them. Or, certainly, if you are tired of them, you could stop bringing them back up. I'm not sure what your predicament is?

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 03:39 PM
2006 marches on. :doot:

In what respect? I supported the Mario pick in 2006 and I still think it was good selection. We are six years beyond 2006. The current decision has nothing to do with that decision. It is time to assess him again, 6 years later, and place value on him moving forward. One has nothing to do with the other. We got two great years out of Mario and many more very good games. I just think, at his free agent value and the team's circumstances, it is time to move on.

thunderkyss
03-09-2012, 06:54 PM
We could have a poll for who is the leading "I don't want Mario" guy in the forum and you would get 90% of the votes.

:challenge

Where do I drop my ballot?

gafftop
03-09-2012, 08:41 PM
Dale gets 90% huh? Do I get the other 10%?

Carr Bombed
03-09-2012, 08:46 PM
Dale gets 90% huh? Do I get the other 10%?

We'll split it and take 5 each... But I'm sure Texecutioner would want his cut as well. :)


Face it folks, Mario is gonzo.

Texecutioner
03-09-2012, 08:59 PM
We'll split it and take 5 each... But I'm sure Texecutioner would want his cut as well. :)


Face it folks, Mario is gonzo.

What exactly is the bet? :)

I will probably take it with confidence. Dale and I don't agree that regularly, but he has been very impressive on this issue for months taking a lot of abuse from people who believe Mario is way better than he is because he plays in Houston.

badboy
03-09-2012, 09:31 PM
Hey, do any of you guys have an idea what to do with Mario?

Dutchrudder
03-09-2012, 09:33 PM
Hey, do any of you guys have an idea what to do with Mario?

I'd say get him a Nascar team...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQtUP-7_HtA

Carr Bombed
03-09-2012, 09:33 PM
Hey, do any of you guys have an idea what to do with Mario?

I do... Tell him thanks and wish him the best of luck on his future endeavors.

leebigeztx
03-09-2012, 09:36 PM
In what respect? I supported the Mario pick in 2006 and I still think it was good selection. We are six years beyond 2006. The current decision has nothing to do with that decision. It is time to assess him again, 6 years later, and place value on him moving forward. One has nothing to do with the other. We got two great years out of Mario and many more very good games. I just think, at his free agent value and the team's circumstances, it is time to move on.


Wrong! U were one of the people booing at the pick.

6yr 84m is not going to hurt the texans future. The new tv money is gonna jack the cap to 180+m. You will continue ur weak case and weak numbers. Just like barwin and taking a 8m bonus right now. Carry on with ur baseless agenda to show ur fan hood.

marks01234
03-09-2012, 09:43 PM
Signing Mario to a "fair" deal won't mortgage the future. Just like signing Jjo last year, Arian this year, Schaub, & Aj back in the day, didn't mortgage the future.

The salary cap will go up.

The teams you mentioned... as has been said does not prove your point. The Steelers are in cap hell now, & they are a fading team as is the Pats. When those teams were on top, it wasn't just Ben & Brady getting paid.

The numbers were more in line with salaries of the time. Now we are in a goofy situation where the cap has gone down & our stars are hitting their prime.

I don't know how "large" their contracts are, but Suggs, Ray Lewis, & Reed are among the highest paid players at their position. They're also going to sign Ray Rice, this year or next & if Torry Smith turns out to be what he looks like he's going to be, they're going to pay him as well.

People want to point at guys like Seymour & say, "See, they'll let a player like that go." But Seymour had just finished his 8th year & there were questions of his ability to play on the outside. He went to Oakland & they started off playing him inside at the much cheaper DT position.

Seymour has been very productive lately.... the Pats simply guessed wrong on that one.

I agree with most everything here. Only thing I want to point out is that the Pats got value back from Seymour.

We won't get value back if Mario leaves.

BTW, Dalemurphy - DE's make more money than RB's and S's. That is just a fact of life in the NFL. DE's, LT's, QB's and WR's are going to make the most money because they are most important positions.

Mario Williams was pretty dominant this season too. Didn't look like a guy declining against Indy, Miami or Pittsburgh.

Carr Bombed
03-09-2012, 09:43 PM
Wrong! U were one of the people booing at the pick.

6yr 84m is not going to hurt the texans future. The new tv money is gonna jack the cap to 180+m. You will continue ur weak case and weak numbers. Just like barwin and taking a 8m bonus right now. Carry on with ur baseless agenda to show ur fan hood.

Do you have a quote?... because I can not remember that far back. It would be interesting to see who supported the pick and who didn't.

Texecutioner
03-09-2012, 09:49 PM
Wrong! U were one of the people booing at the pick.

6yr 84m is not going to hurt the texans future. The new tv money is gonna jack the cap to 180+m. You will continue ur weak case and weak numbers. Just like barwin and taking a 8m bonus right now. Carry on with ur baseless agenda to show ur fan hood.

I wasn't on this board back then, but I'm quite certain that Dale was very supportive and huge on Mario years ago. I don't know about the draft, but Dale is usually the guy who is extra high on unproven players from what I remember of the past. Dales constant critique of Mario Williams is actually inconsistent with his usual stances on Texans players. He has always been more on the "optimistic" side in arguments like these involving Texans players.

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 09:49 PM
Wrong! U were one of the people booing at the pick.

Why are you saying this? This is not true. Not even close to true. I never had a single criticism of the guy until late into 2009.

Here's something from December of 2006. Pardon the optimism: I liked Mario (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33172)... 2nd to last paragraph: he's the "very promising DLman"... by the way, a lot of folks on these boards weren't to happy with him at the end of his rookie year: 5 sacks.

gafftop
03-09-2012, 09:56 PM
Hey, do any of you guys have an idea what to do with Mario?

Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion.

Back in April almost a year ago I proposed the above because I thought the only outcome once the season was over was Mario would be gone. Nothing has changed.

At this point in time there is no more "What to do with Mario?" because we have no control/leverage. The question is "What is Mario going to do?"

Glad to see the Texans handled Foster much better.

Lucky
03-09-2012, 10:03 PM
I just think, at his free agent value and the team's circumstances, it is time to move on.
Look, just be honest. You have posted multiple items on your blog and here that you believe Mario is a dog and the Texans would be better off without him. And that's fine. It's an opinion and you should stand behind it. Just don't crawdad and try to say that you think Mario is good, but just not a good value for the Texans. You wouldn't want Mario on the Texans if they had a boatload of cap room.

Dale gets 90% huh? Do I get the other 10%?
I don't think you're getting the credit you deserve. You created the thread(s) and have been politicking for Mario's exit for almost a year. Most of your posts are about Mario. I'm not sure if we're going to even hear from you again is/when Mario is gone.

This is the Mario situation, in a nutshell. Mario would like to come back. But he has a number that he and his agent need to see. The Texans would like Mario back. But, they have budget limitations (unknown to fans and media) that will restrict the amount they can offer Mario. They won't hamstring the franchise for any player. Is there some common ground where the Texans and Mario's numbers can meet happily? We don't know. I'm not even sure if they know that, yet. I think the Texans chances of winning a Super Bowl are enhanced with Mario. But, that doesn't mean they have no shot without him. Whatever happens, I'm not going to be upset with either side.

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 10:11 PM
I wasn't on this board back then, but I'm quite certain that Dale was very supportive and huge on Mario years ago. I don't know about the draft, but Dale is usually the guy who is extra high on unproven players from what I remember of the past. Dales constant critique of Mario Williams is actually inconsistent with his usual stances on Texans players. He has always been more on the "optimistic" side in arguments like these involving Texans players.

What are you talking about? Optimistic? I just found the date I gave up on David Carr: 12/18/2006 (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=543203#post543203) LOL!!

badboy
03-09-2012, 10:13 PM
hee hee after 85 pages you guys thought I was asking a serious question?

gafftop
03-09-2012, 10:14 PM
Look, just be honest. You have posted multiple items on your blog and here that you believe Mario is a dog and the Texans would be better off without him. And that's fine. It's an opinion and you should stand behind it. Just don't crawdad and try to say that you think Mario is good, but just not a good value for the Texans. You wouldn't want Mario on the Texans if they had a boatload of cap room.


I don't think you're getting the credit you deserve. You created the thread(s) and have been politicking for Mario's exit for almost a year. Most of your posts are about Mario. I'm not sure if we're going to even hear from you again is/when Mario is gone.

This is the Mario situation, in a nutshell. Mario would like to come back. But he has a number that he and his agent need to see. The Texans would like Mario back. But, they have budget limitations (unknown to fans and media) that will restrict the amount they can offer Mario. They won't hamstring the franchise for any player. Is there some common ground where the Texans and Mario's numbers can meet happily? We don't know. I'm not even sure if they know that, yet. I think the Texans chances of winning a Super Bowl are enhanced with Mario. But, that doesn't mean they have no shot without him. Whatever happens, I'm not going to be upset with either side.

Thank you.

I agree with your nutshell but it was going to end up that way one way or the other no matter what.

I am upset in that because of inaction last year we end up with NOTHING for Mario so the overall talent level goes down.

dalemurphy
03-09-2012, 10:16 PM
Look, just be honest. You have posted multiple items on your blog and here that you believe Mario is a dog and the Texans would be better off without him. And that's fine. It's an opinion and you should stand behind it. Just don't crawdad and try to say that you think Mario is good, but just not a good value for the Texans. You wouldn't want Mario on the Texans if they had a boatload of cap room..

Not true that I wouldn't want Mario for a price. That being said, he has consistently slid further out of my favor since late in 2009. I promise that I wouldn't be nearly this critical if he was making a moderate salary the past few seasons.

I think Mario is a great talent... a good player... with a questionable and inconsistent motor... and a poor risk moving forward.

Lucky
03-09-2012, 10:35 PM
I am upset in that because of inaction last year we end up with NOTHING for Mario so the overall talent level goes down.
That's overblown. First, the Texans were trying for their first playoff appearance ever. Jobs were on the line. Teams were just coming off the lockout and getting their bearings on the new CBA. Finally, Mario carried a huge cap number and there would have been no trade for anything of value unless he re-upped for a long term deal. In the armchair GM world, it looked like an easy decision. In the real world of the NFL, there were too many obstacles.

leebigeztx
03-09-2012, 10:43 PM
If u follow dalemurphys lead, he thinks in real world dollars,not the cartoon money that is the nfl. When tambi hali gets 35m guaranteed,yet he doesn't think mario should get that much,its funny. Mario will never please guys who thinks he's not playing hard. Nether will peppers or coples,the de coming out. I don't give a rats ass if a play is ran awa and he chases the back 30 yds downfield. Eventhough I've seen him make those same plays like that down the field. He will never make guys like dalemurphy happy. He could lead the league in sacks,be 1st team all pro,defensive poy and dalemurphy will never think its enough. Last year,he came out of camp with a sports hernia,but he played almost the entire year with it until it was too much and he shut it down. Rookie year,he played with an injury,but never said a word, just kept playing. It will never be enough,but ask the guys lining up next to him and across amd they will tell you how much of a load he is.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 06:55 AM
If u follow dalemurphys lead, he thinks in real world dollars,not the cartoon money that is the nfl. When tambi hali gets 35m guaranteed,yet he doesn't think mario should get that much,its funny.

Mario will never please guys who thinks he's not playing hard. He will never make guys like dalemurphy happy. He could lead the league in sacks,be 1st team all pro,defensive poy and dalemurphy will never think its enough.

Rookie year,he played with an injury,but never said a word, just kept playing. It will never be enough,but ask the guys lining up next to him and across amd they will tell you how much of a load he is.

1. I would prefer Tamba Hali. That is true. However, I don't want either player at the price they command in free agency.

2. Mario did please me in 2006, playing through the foot injury and learning to play in the NFL. I was thrilled with his play in 2007 and 2008. In 2009, I was a big fan of his until his performance and effort became less consistent (IMO) later in the year. It was 2010 when my opinion of him began to shift. After we began the year 4-2 and came out of the bye, he was awful. His effort and intensity was very poor. I was theorizing that he must be injured though the Texans had swept that all under the rug. When it went public that he did try and play through a sports hernia, I was cautiously optimistic that I would see a different player and better energy in 2011.

He was much better in September of 2011. From a sack and pressure standpoint, he was very productive and if he had stayed healthy would likely have approached his 2007 season in terms of sacks. However, I believe his motor was still inconsistent and it solidified what I began to believe in 2009 and 2010. Because of that perceived lack of intensity, I am not a fan of his anymore. However, my argument for not wanting him back is the productivity of the team without him.

For a player to be payed like one of the best players in the NFL, I believe it should be clear that the team needs him on the field. In the Texans 14 games without Mario, they clearly played the best defense in their 10 year NFL history. Given that, I think it very unwise to give him a significant chunk of the cap.

NFL players are always impressed with the greatest athletes. All the great wide receivers wanted to play for Atlanta when Vick was there also. They thought he was going to be the best QB in the history of the NFL.


** Please stop misrepresenting my position. I have never, and still do not, have any complaint/criticism of Mario Williams before the second half of 2009.

thunderkyss
03-10-2012, 11:12 AM
Last year,he came out of camp with a sports hernia,but he played almost the entire year with it until it was too much and he shut it down. Rookie year,he played with an injury,but never said a word, just kept playing. It will never be enough,but ask the guys lining up next to him and across amd they will tell you how much of a load he is.

The thing about Mario, I think, that will make Kubiak push as hard as he can to sign him, is that Mario had no injury issues whatsoever in college. I believe, & I think Kubiak believes, Mario's injuries are more for the amount of snaps Mario plays. Had we had a Jj Watt or Brooks Reed, or Connor Barwin Mario's first year or two, he wouldn't have the issues he has now.

Put Mario on last year's #2 defense is going to help the Texans a number of ways. First, you'll have non-stop pressure on the QB. Rotating our three OLBs (Brooks, Connor, & Mario) & our three DEs (Jamison, Smith, & Watt) & a solid 4 man front (Barwin, Watt, Smith, Williams) on passing situations, the defense alone will be strong enough to win a Super Bowl ala the Dilfer led Ravens, or Johnson led Bucs.

arb729
03-10-2012, 12:02 PM
Dale.. what if what we saw from Barwin this year was more fluke than anything? I understand he is fairly new to the DE position and then lost an entire year to injury.. but do you have more confidence that he'll be able to repeat last years performance (10+ sacks/40+ tackles) than Mario will be able to put up those numbers? Really just curious more than anything.. Not picking on you.

arb729
03-10-2012, 12:03 PM
to clarify my point, I'm fairly confident in the ability of JJ and Brooks to be forces in this league for years to come. Just don't see the type of intensity and pure skill they bring to the table very often.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 12:29 PM
Dale.. what if what we saw from Barwin this year was more fluke than anything? I understand he is fairly new to the DE position and then lost an entire year to injury.. but do you have more confidence that he'll be able to repeat last years performance (10+ sacks/40+ tackles) than Mario will be able to put up those numbers? Really just curious more than anything.. Not picking on you.

No problem:

1. That would suck!

2. I have a ton of confidence in Barwin. I predicted before the season that he would finish with 10+ sacks- that was before he beat out Reed for the job in the preseason: Here's the evidence (http://www.texansbullblog.com/prediction-2009-texans-draft/news/)

3. I think the team needs to address Mario's loss with a free agent. There are a number of guys that would be good depth/rotation for Reed and Barwin... and affordable.

4. I think OLB would be a position likely addressed in the first 3 or 4 rounds of the draft.

Letting Mario go is about improving depth, not limiting it. People make fun of me because I want the Texans to lock up guys like Glover Quin, Brice McCain, James Casey, Mike Brisiel... But, it's because I think they are very good value and I respect the importance of depth. I don't think there is any player, other than QB, that is worth what Mario Williams will likely command.

TdotTexas2Step
03-10-2012, 12:36 PM
What some need to realize is that what made our defense great was that we had depth. Yeah, Brooks Reed's performance this year was amazing, and he made sure we didn't miss a beat.

But what happens if we lose one of Cushing/Barwin/Reed next year to an injury? A revolving door of those three with Mario ensures us we get constant pressure and the ability to overcome injuries.

We had Mario moving all over the place last season (OLB and on as an DE), we'll have the playing time for him to justify his contract.

gafftop
03-10-2012, 01:56 PM
I am getting tired of hearing, "If Mario is on the team next year we will be great. Just think if Mario was on the team during the playoffs...We need depth... etc. " Mario was on the team last year and he got hurt. Mario was on the team the year before and in what would have been crunch time if the Texans were in the playoffs where was he, on the bench injured. The reason we needed depth last year was Mario was hurt again.

"Mario played through PF his rookie year, Mario played through a sports hernia, Mario played through a sore shoulder. Mario is so tough... " He may or may not be tough but one thing he is not is DURABLE. How can people just cast aside his durability as one fluke injury after another. We are starting to talk about hopefully making a playoff run which means more games. Sorry I don't see Mario staying healthy long enough to make a difference in crunch time. Just my opinion.

For the amount of money it will take to keep him even with a HUGE hometown discount I personally don't think he is worth the risk based on his past.

Just to save time what would I be happy signing him for???

$6 mill first year, $10 mill guarantee , no signing bonus, that is all you need to know. Is there a chance he signs for that?

I started this thread and I am getting tired of it.

Let's just leave it to the braintrust to decide who is wrong and who is right.

Allstar
03-10-2012, 02:06 PM
I am getting tired of hearing, "If Mario is on the team next year we will be great. Just think if Mario was on the team during the playoffs...We need depth... etc. " Mario was on the team last year and he got hurt. Mario was on the team the year before and in what would have been crunch time if the Texans were in the playoffs where was he, on the bench injured. The reason we needed depth last year was Mario was hurt again.


I'm fairly certain he would've kept playing if there was something to play for.

Vinny
03-10-2012, 02:09 PM
Dale.. what if what we saw from Barwin this year was more fluke than anything? I understand he is fairly new to the DE position and then lost an entire year to injury.. but do you have more confidence that he'll be able to repeat last years performance (10+ sacks/40+ tackles) than Mario will be able to put up those numbers? Really just curious more than anything.. Not picking on you.mostly it depends on Reed...if he goes through a soph slump (quite possible now that he has so much game film at this level now), Barwin will draw a double all the time. Probably bad news for him.

Mr teX
03-10-2012, 03:04 PM
mostly it depends on Reed...if he goes through a soph slump (quite possible now that he has so much game film at this level now), Barwin will draw a double all the time. Probably bad news for him.

looking at the numbers Barwin was the guy who was underperforming. He only had like 2-3 sacks when mario was active. He didn't really show up too much until we played Jax the 1st time where he got 4 sacks in a game but by then he'd been moved into Mario's position. Meanwhile, Reed moved to Barwin's spot & made an immediate impact, i believe he got 5 sacks in like 4-5 straight weeks before he tailed off for the rest of the season. that stretch there made him the leader in sacks by midseason........even though he wasn't a starter at the outset like Barwin and he wasn't moved into Mario's premium rush olb position like Barwin was. So technically, Reed came in & made more of an impact at Barwin's position than Barwin himself. & then in the playoffs Barwin wasn't really a factor whereas we know Reed was. So imo it's definitely not out of the posibility that Barwin takes a step back....in fact im counting on it from him; especially with the schedule stiffening up a bit.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 03:30 PM
looking at the numbers Barwin was the guy who was underperforming. He only had like 2-3 sacks when mario was active. He didn't register another sack until we played Jax the 1st time where he got 4 in a game...that was a 6 week stretch in between sacks. Once Mario went down, Reed moved to Barwin's spot & made an immediate impact, i believe he got 5 sacks in like 4-5 straight weeks & then he tailed off for the rest of the season. So technically Reed came in & made more of an impact at Barwin's position than Barwin himself. So it's definitely not out of the posibility that 1 or both of these guys take a step back next year; especially with the schedule stiffening up a bit.

Your chronology is a little off. However, you are bringing up a great point that further illustrates my point.

Barwin was playing SOLB with Mario playing WOLB. During that time, Mario racked up 5 sacks to Barwin's 2 sacks. Following Mario's injury, for the next three weeks, Reed took over at WOLB for Mario and Barwin remained on the strong side. However, three weeks into Mario's absence, the coaching staff decided to flip Barwin to the WOLB and Reed to SOLB. From that point on, Barwin had 9.5 sacks. In the three weeks at WOLB, Reed had 2 sacks, I believe.

So, while Mario did make plays at WOLB: 5 sacks in 5 games... His position continued to produce at the same level once he was gone (Reed and Barwin combined for about 11.5 sacks in 11+ games at WOLB)

Because of Mario's credibility as a pass rusher and his skill set, this team has always attempted to put him in the best position to succeed. It says something that his replacements (being placed in the same position) produced at the same rate, statistically... not to mention the defense performed better without him than it ever has with him on the field. Perhaps it is all coincidence and circumstance. I happen to think not. I happen to think he has not been a consistently great player since early 2009.

p.s. Regarding Barwin underperforming in the first month- He had 2 sacks wiped out because of penalties, I believe (one on Ben Roth... which was a joke of a call). Also, I remember one of his sacks he beat Jake Long around the edge for a sack in the 1st quarter against Miami. When is the last time Mario beat a great tackle for a sack?

Mr teX
03-10-2012, 03:43 PM
Your chronology is a little off. However, you are bringing up a great point that further illustrates my point.

Barwin was playing SOLB with Mario playing WOLB. During that time, Mario racked up 5 sacks to Barwin's 2 sacks. Following Mario's injury, for the next three weeks, Reed took over at WOLB for Mario and Barwin remained on the strong side. However, three weeks into Mario's absence, the coaching staff decided to flip Barwin to the WOLB and Reed to SOLB. From that point on, Barwin had 9.5 sacks. In the three weeks at WOLB, Reed had 2 sacks, I believe.

So, while Mario did make plays at WOLB: 5 sacks in 5 games... His position continued to produce at the same level once he was gone (Reed and Barwin combined for about 11.5 sacks in 11+ games at WOLB)

Because of Mario's credibility as a pass rusher and his skill set, this team has always attempted to put him in the best position to succeed. It says something that his replacements (being placed in the same position) produced at the same rate, statistically... not to mention the defense performed better without him than it ever has with him on the field. Perhaps it is all coincidence and circumstance. I happen to think not. I happen to think he has not been a consistently great player since early 2009.

p.s. Regarding Barwin underperforming in the first month- He had 2 sacks wiped out because of penalties, I believe (one on Ben Roth... which was a joke of a call). Also, I remember one of his sacks he beat Jake Long around the edge for a sack in the 1st quarter against Miami. When is the last time Mario beat a great tackle for a sack?

I was always under the impression that Barwin took over Mario's spot when Mario went down....however,
even if you factor in your strawman argument, it still does not change the fact that Reed came in & played Barwin's positon better than barwin himself as Reed registered 4 sacks to Barwin's 3 in the stretch. Reed was also far more disruptive than Barwin was at his position all the way into the playoffs. Barwin, not so much. You also have to factor in the schedule. Barwin & Reeds runs happened when our schedule was at its lightest...like 5 straight teams that will be picking inside the top 10 in the nfl draft light.

& lol, we're counting "should've been" sacks now? you're really stooping to a new low dale. I wonder what you'd say if i resorted to playing the same game regarding mario?

cbs1507
03-10-2012, 04:01 PM
Your chronology is a little off. However, you are bringing up a great point that further illustrates my point.

Barwin was playing SOLB with Mario playing WOLB. During that time, Mario racked up 5 sacks to Barwin's 2 sacks. Following Mario's injury, for the next three weeks, Reed took over at WOLB for Mario and Barwin remained on the strong side. However, three weeks into Mario's absence, the coaching staff decided to flip Barwin to the WOLB and Reed to SOLB. From that point on, Barwin had 9.5 sacks. In the three weeks at WOLB, Reed had 2 sacks, I believe.

So, while Mario did make plays at WOLB: 5 sacks in 5 games... His position continued to produce at the same level once he was gone (Reed and Barwin combined for about 11.5 sacks in 11+ games at WOLB)

Because of Mario's credibility as a pass rusher and his skill set, this team has always attempted to put him in the best position to succeed. It says something that his replacements (being placed in the same position) produced at the same rate, statistically... not to mention the defense performed better without him than it ever has with him on the field. Perhaps it is all coincidence and circumstance. I happen to think not. I happen to think he has not been a consistently great player since early 2009.

p.s. Regarding Barwin underperforming in the first month- He had 2 sacks wiped out because of penalties, I believe (one on Ben Roth... which was a joke of a call). Also, I remember one of his sacks he beat Jake Long around the edge for a sack in the 1st quarter against Miami. When is the last time Mario beat a great tackle for a sack?

Let's just get the facts straight because your chronology is a little off (more so than tex).

Barwin started season opposite of Mario and had 2 sacks prior to Mario's injury. He had 2 sacks up to week 8 before he began to heat up and got 9.5 sacks from then on.

Barwin and Reed switched week 7 vs Tennessee. Reed had ZERO sacks at this time (not 2) but he was in the rotation when Mario was playing. He recorded 6 sacks from week 7-week 12. Then finished the season with 6 sacks (which means he had zero sacks after week 12), before heating up in the playoffs where he had 3.5 sacks. Barwin was non existent in the playoffs.

Neither one of these guys made anybody better. They just benefited from DT's thrown at Watt and Smith. It was more like a parasitic relationship than a mutual one. They let those 2 take up blocks and DT's and benefited from 1 on 1 without reciprocating it back to them. We had to send 5 or more just to allow Watt or Smith a pass rushing opportunity. As a matter of fact we had to blitz about half of the game and even higher than that on passing downs.

BTW We had 15 of our 44 total sacks with Mario in the lineup (mind you he went out in the 1st quarter of week 5) which is over a third of our sacks in just 5 weeks.

PS Everybody gets sacks taken away dale. It's part of the game. I know for a fact at least 2 sacks (nfl.com had video highlights of them) where Mario lost a sacks due to penalty in that span. And congrats to Barwin for beating 1on1 on his sack on hte same play where Mario got triple teamed. Of course I'm sure you just left that our on accident (honest mistake right). ;)

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 04:03 PM
I wonder what you'd say if i resorted to playing the same game regarding mario?[/B]

I was responding to your claim that Barwin wasn't playing well during that time. I disagree. I thought he was playing well... not great, but well. You are welcome to illustrate games when Mario dominated but his sacks didn't indicate the domination... I'm thinking the the Texans victory vs. Indy in week one of 2010 would be a good example. He was great that game. Also, he was unbelievable in the second half of the Redskin game. I think he recorded two sacks but it could've been many more. I have no problem with that.

This idea that the schedule was a cake walk after week 4 is puzzling to me. The Texans played one good offensive line when Mario was healthy and Mario looked awful that game: New Orleans. The Texans played another 14 games beyond Mario's injury and the defense was consistently great. I don't see that scheduling was the primary reason for that.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Let's just get the facts straight because your chronology is a little off (more so than tex).

Barwin started season opposite of Mario and had 2 sacks prior to Mario's injury. He had 2 sacks up to week 8 before he began to heat up.

Barwin and Reed switched week 7 vs Tennessee. Reed had ZERO sacks at this time. He recorded 6 sacks from week 7-week 12. Then finished the season with 6 sack, before heating up in the playoffs where he had 3.5 sacks. Barwin was non existent in the playoffs.

BTW We had 15 of our 44 total sacks with Mario in the lineup (mind you he went out in the 1st quarter of week 5) which is over a third of our sacks in just 5 weeks.

PS Everybody gets sacks taken away dale. It's part of the game. I know for a fact at least 2 sacks (nfl.com had video highlights of them) where Mario lost a sacks due to penalty in that span. And congrats to Barwin for beating 1on1 on his sack on hte same play where Mario got triple teamed. Of course I'm sure you just left that our on accident (honest mistake right). ;)


Perhaps it was in week 7.. So, the switch was a great move. Barwin took over Mario's spot and recorded a sack a game through the rest of the season- the same pace Mario was on. And, Reed excelled on the opposite side as well, with six sacks in 10 games. Sounds great!

The fact that there was a slight reduction (very slight) in sacks per game after Mario left the lineup is more than made up for by the fact that the yards per game allowed dropped by 70. There are circumstances that account for both of those shifts:

** Once Schaub was injured, the Texans offense put less pressure on the opposing offense to throw the ball (smaller leads and less total points). Therefore, there were less opportunities for sacks. Also, since the Texans were scoring less and running the ball more, opposing teams were naturally going to gain less yards because they would be pushing the ball downfield out of necessity less often.

Given that both of those factors may have been at work, the point stands. The defense was very, very good (better by most standards) without Mario than with him. Also, not counting the playoffs, Barwin and Reed (according to your information) once Wade properly aligned them, tallied 15.5 sacks in a 9 or 10 game stretch to end the season. That impresses me. Not you?

Mr teX
03-10-2012, 04:30 PM
I was responding to your claim that Barwin wasn't playing well during that time. I disagree. I thought he was playing well... not great, but well. You are welcome to illustrate games when Mario dominated but his sacks didn't indicate the domination... I'm thinking the the Texans victory vs. Indy in week one of 2010 would be a good example. He was great that game. Also, he was unbelievable in the second half of the Redskin game. I think he recorded two sacks but it could've been many more. I have no problem with that.

This idea that the schedule was a cake walk after week 4 is puzzling to me. The Texans played one good offensive line when Mario was healthy and Mario looked awful that game: New Orleans. The Texans played another 14 games beyond Mario's injury and the defense was consistently great. I don't see that scheduling was the primary reason for that.

Yeah, b/c barwin & reed got all their sacks against elite tackles right? Stay on topic & quit moving your argument every time we sucessfully counter it...you do a disservice to your stance.

Jax, Cle, TB and Ten are all atrocious offenses. That was a 5 game stretch we played at 1 point. My point here is that we could've put Nading & Braman in against them & those 2 along with the defense would've looked great. & while reed & barwin & the defense played well, your point about the defense playing great without mario has to be taken with a grain of salt b/c they played NOONE who could do anything against ANYONE. The games they faced teams who had competent offenses & elite playmakers, the defense wasn't all that.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 04:54 PM
Yeah, b/c barwin & reed got all their sacks against elite tackles right? Stay on topic & quit moving your argument every time we sucessfully counter it...you do a disservice to your stance.

Jax, Cle, TB and Ten are all atrocious offenses. That was a 5 game stretch we played at 1 point. My point here is that we could've put Nading & Braman in against them & those 2 along with the defense would've looked great. & while reed & barwin & the defense played well, your point about the defense playing great without mario has to be taken with a grain of salt b/c they played NOONE who could do anything against ANYONE. The games they faced teams who had competent offenses & elite playmakers, the defense wasn't all that.

I never said they did get all their sacks against elite tackles. What are you talking about?

If you think Nading and Braman would've looked great then there is no point continuing this discussion. Braman, though I love him, is very raw and would be exposed by any NFL team if he played every snap. Nading doesn't belong in the NFL, other than the back end of a roster as a special teams' contributor.

Amazing to see that fans are so desperate to defend one player that they will diminish the success that the team had. This defense carried the Texans, with a 3rd string rookie QB, to the second round of the playoffs and were close to an AFC championship performance. But, hey, the important thing is that the guy that made $18 million sitting on the bench and watching it happen last year, gets the credit you think he deserves. It can't be that the Texans were great without him, it must be something else.

Marcus
03-10-2012, 05:03 PM
I started this thread and I am getting tired of it.

Let's just leave it to the braintrust to decide who is wrong and who is right.

Well, since you are the one that started it, let me ask you a question.

After all this time, you've learned that some favor letting Mario walk, and you learned that some favor re-signing him.

So what do you think the ratio is? About 50/50? And can you think of one person whose mind was changed since you started it?

Yeah, I'd be tired of it, too.

cbs1507
03-10-2012, 05:04 PM
Perhaps it was in week 7.. So, the switch was a great move. Barwin took over Mario's spot and recorded a sack a game through the rest of the season- the same pace Mario was on. And, Reed excelled on the opposite side as well, with six sacks in 10 games. Sounds great!

The fact that there was a slight reduction (very slight) in sacks per game after Mario left the lineup is more than made up for by the fact that the yards per game allowed dropped by 70. There are circumstances that account for both of those shifts:

** Once Schaub was injured, the Texans offense put less pressure on the opposing offense to throw the ball (smaller leads and less total points). Therefore, there were less opportunities for sacks. Also, since the Texans were scoring less and running the ball more, opposing teams were naturally going to gain less yards because they would be pushing the ball downfield out of necessity less often.

Given that both of those factors may have been at work, the point stands. The defense was very, very good (better by most standards) without Mario than with him. Also, not counting the playoffs, Barwin and Reed (according to your information) once Wade properly aligned them, tallied 15.5 sacks in a 9 or 10 game stretch to end the season. That impresses me. Not you?

I'm sure it sounds great in your diluted perception that you call reality. But you are ignoring the fact that Reed and Barwin made nobody on the team better. JJ Watt and Antonio Smith made them better however. They had a parasitic relationship with our DL instead of the mutual one we had with Mario in the lineup. They benefited from our DL occupying blocks and DT's which freed them up for 1 on 1 or better but our DL did not benefit from having them (DL just occupiers but never got opportunities to rush because they were too busy freeing up Reed and Barwin).

** You do know that your argument for why we got less sacks just put to bed your fallacious claim that we were better without Mario right? I'll show you how (with your own argument). You said that we got less sacks because with Schaub out our offensive production went down. The decrease in production allowed for other teams to not have to rely on the pass as much which diminished the amount of sack opportunities down the stretch. Which in turn contributed to the drop in yards per game.

Given both of these factors at work our defense appeared to play better without Mario (to delusional people such as yourself) because teams did not have to put up the production they once had to when we had Schaub at QB (your words). This in turned allowed weaker offenses to stay close without putting up monster production. That impresses me dale. How about you?

Mr teX
03-10-2012, 05:06 PM
I never said they did get all their sacks against elite tackles. What are you talking about?

If you think Nading and Braman would've looked great then there is no point continuing this discussion. Braman, though I love him, is very raw and would be exposed by any NFL team if he played every snap. Nading doesn't belong in the NFL, other than the back end of a roster as a special teams' contributor.

Amazing to see that fans are so desperate to defend one player that they will diminish the success that the team had. This defense carried the Texans, with a 3rd string rookie QB, to the second round of the playoffs and were close to an AFC championship performance. But, hey, the important thing is that the guy that made $18 million sitting on the bench and watching it happen last year, gets the credit you think he deserves. It can't be that the Texans were great without him, it must be something else.

why else would bring up "when was the last time mario got a sack on an elite LT?" as if Barwin & Reed have being doing it.


Look, you're the only guy in here using blanket statements to prop up your weak argument; & in doing so you're doing your hardest to ignore every other factor involved. Yes the defense played great without mario, yes the defense as a whole gave up less yards playing without mario than with him......but if you're going to sit here and really try to get me or anyone else to believe that the schedule had next to nothing to do with that or that its as simple as you're trying to pawn it off to be......well i can't help you.

that is why your statements come off as being full of hate against the guy, that is why noone but you and a few others take your statements seriously. I'm to the point now in this thread that i want to see them resign mario at 14 per just to watch your head explode.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 05:19 PM
I'm sure it sounds great in your diluted perception that you call reality. But you are ignoring the fact that Reed and Barwin made nobody on the team better. JJ Watt and Antonio Smith made them better however. They had a parasitic relationship with our DL instead of the mutual one we had with Mario in the lineup. They benefited from our DL occupying blocks and DT's which freed them up for 1 on 1 or better but our DL did not benefit from having them (DL just occupiers but never got opportunities to rush because they were too busy freeing up Reed and Barwin).

** You do know that your argument for why we got less sacks just put to bed your fallacious claim that we were better without Mario right? I'll show you how (with your own argument). You said that we got less sacks because with Schaub out our offensive production went down. The decrease in production allowed for other teams to not have to rely on the pass as much which diminished the amount of sack opportunities down the stretch. Which in turn contributed to the drop in yards per game.

Given both of these factors at work our defense appeared to play better without Mario (to delusional people such as yourself) because teams did not have to put up the production they once had to when we had Schaub at QB (your words). This in turned allowed weaker offenses to stay close without putting up monster production. That impresses me dale. How about you?


Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm attempting to have an honest converstaion:

1. Sacks were down because of our restricted offense

2. yards were down, in part, as well because of our QB situation.

Likely, with a healthy Schaub, my guess is that our sack rate would've been higher than it was and we would also have given up more than the 255 yards per game that we gave up. The Texans could've had another 3-5 sacks with a healthy QB and probably would've given up another 30 yards per game.

I'm not trying to say we were much better without Mario. I'm saying that we were at least as good without him.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 05:26 PM
but you're the only guy in here using blanket statements to prop up your weak argument; & in doing so you're doing your hardest to ignore every other factor involved. Yes the defense played great without mario, yes the defense as a whole gave up less yards playing without mario than with him......but if you're going to sit here and really try to get me or anyone else to believe that the schedule had next to nothing to do with that or that its as simple as you're trying to pawn it off to be

I never said that. You were the one saying that Braman and Nading would've looked great against the schedule. That's a ridiculous statement. I have only said that the scheduling isn't the primary cause for the success of the defense over a 14 week period and I have disputed the idea that the schedule played the first month was that impressive... they played two hideous offenses and one good one. The one good one, by the way, scored 40 points.

We can go into more detail as I have before...

In the four games with Mario, the opposing offenses exceeded their average for the year in 3 of those 4 games.

In the 13 games without Mario, the opposing offenses exceeded their average for the year only twice, I believe... In most cases, the Texans gave up many yards and points less than those teams averaged against the rest of the NFL.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 05:33 PM
I'm to the point now in this thread that i want to see them resign mario at 14 per just to watch your head explode.

If they do, I'll be rooting for the guy and hoping I'm wrong. Furthermore, if the Texans do re-sign him, it will make me second-guess what I've been arguing, because I am a big believer in Smith and Kubiak. Part of my confidence in my position comes from my belief that Kubiak and Smith don't want him back. If they re-sign him, I will be full of mixed emotions, uncertainty, but hoping for the best for the Texans.

GP
03-10-2012, 05:46 PM
If they do, I'll be rooting for the guy and hoping I'm wrong. Furthermore, if the Texans do re-sign him, it will make me second-guess what I've been arguing, because I am a big believer in Smith and Kubiak. Part of my confidence in my position comes from my belief that Kubiak and Smith don't want him back. If they re-sign him, I will be full of mixed emotions, uncertainty, but hoping for the best for the Texans.

If McNair wants him back, Mario will be back. And it won't matter what anybody else tries to tell him. Dunta came back. Carr came back. Bob has this thing for certain "faces of the franchise" that I think will rear its ugly head again with the Mario situation--And I say that in terms of how McNair often votes with his heart and not his head, and not because I think McNair would be a fool to re-sign Mario or anything.

I just wonder if Wade and Gary and Rick have been able to prove, through the 2011 season, that they all three have got a good chemistry going on and that they are a trio of guys Bob can relax and put trust into with the future roster shaping of this team?

Did 2011, by all accounts, buy Smithiakillips some currency to spend with Bob on the issue of the future of Mario Williams? And then again, which way does Smithiakillips WANT when it comes to Mario? Do they want to part ways or do they want him if Bob can secure him with whatever contract it takes?

We'll never know. Unless somebody leaks it somehow, which I don't see happening. Most people are already resigning themselves to the idea that Mario will get insane money from another team. Most people, whether they hope for it or against it, are acclimating themselves to the idea that Mario is gone. Better to be prepared for it rather than to expect the guy to retire a Texan.

IDK, this is a tough tough decision...but other teams could do things that make it a lot easier for the Texans to decide. Foster signed a deal before the FA surge began...he knows what he wants and he got it. Mario, however, is probably going to test the market on March 13. That's Tuesday, folks.

Monday, IMO, will be the day a new deal gets done or it will pass and Mario will be looking for what else could be offered to him from another team on March 13. Anything is possible. But I bet Bob and his guys are wooing Mario up until the very deadline, trying to tell him that it's possible to avert the emotions of signing elsewhere when he can sign right here and never be tempted to make what might be a bad career decision by choosing elsewhere. I bet $100 (figuratively!) that Bob is pulling as many strings as he can. He's that kind of guy, unlike Irsay who is a crafty little bastard of no character except selfish gain.

dream_team
03-10-2012, 05:49 PM
I never said that. You were the one saying that Braman and Nading would've looked great against the schedule. That's a ridiculous statement. I have only said that the scheduling isn't the primary cause for the success of the defense over a 14 week period and I have disputed the idea that the schedule played the first month was that impressive... they played two hideous offenses and one good one. The one good one, by the way, scored 40 points.

We can go into more detail as I have before...

In the four games with Mario, the opposing offenses exceeded their average for the year in 3 of those 4 games.

In the 13 games without Mario, the opposing offenses exceeded their average for the year only twice, I believe... In most cases, the Texans gave up many yards and points less than those teams averaged against the rest of the NFL.

I think both sides can cherry pick stats all day to make their point. If you simply take yards per offensive play, none of the four teams exceeded their average in the four games with Mario (not even the Saints).

I applaud you Dale, for sticking to your guns. I can't believe you've argued your side for so long now. I highly doubt Mario will be a Texan next season, so I hope you're right.

Nawzer
03-10-2012, 05:59 PM
I don't think Mario will be back and if he's going to command the type of money we all think he is then I actually don't want him back. He's been a very good player for us but I don't think he's a great player. He's also prone to not being fit through the season and always has some kind of nagging injury inhibiting him. He has very good stats, but at the end of the day if you're talking about fearsome defensive end/OLB I can give you 10 guys who are more dangerous than Mario. For example, Dwight Freeney, Justin Tuck, Jason Pierre Paul, Clay Matthews, DeMarcus Ware, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Elvis Dumervil, and etc. I don't want to see us in salary cap hell just because of one player. If the price is reasonable he should be re-signed if not then I wish him well and thank him for his hard work and no complain attitude.

mussop
03-10-2012, 06:08 PM
Do you have a quote?... because I can not remember that far back. It would be interesting to see who supported the pick and who didn't.

I was one of the "please pick Mario" guys. And I love his personality (wish he was a little more fiery) and the versatility he brings to the table. I don't for a second think he is elite or deserves elite money.

Lucky
03-10-2012, 06:38 PM
In the four games with Mario, the opposing offenses exceeded their average for the year in 3 of those 4 games.

I think both sides can cherry pick stats all day to make their point. If you simply take yards per offensive play, none of the four teams exceeded their average in the four games with Mario (not even the Saints).
Not only yards/play but the offensive yardage average as well. That's a complete fabrication by dale.

Colts total offensive yards/game average = 286.8 yards
Week 1 vs Texans = 236 total yards
50.8 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

Dolphins total offensive yards/game average = 317.4 yards
Week 2 vs Texans = 306 total yards
11.4 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

Saints total offensive yards/game average = 467.1 yards
Week 3 vs Texans = 454 total yards
13.1 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

Steelers total offensive yards/game average = 372.3 yards
Week 4 vs Texans = 296 total yards
76.3 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

How about this:
Texans record in 2011 with Mario = 3-1 (.750)
Texans record in 2011 without Mario = 7-5 (.583)

We could do this all day. What would it matter? We're not involved in the decision making. So why make stuff up?

ThaShark316
03-10-2012, 07:03 PM
2006 still hurts dale's soul. http://static.bbmp3.com/smilies/jackson.gif

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 07:09 PM
Not only yards/play but the offensive yardage average as well. That's a complete fabrication by dale.

Colts total offensive yards/game average = 286.8 yards
Week 1 vs Texans = 236 total yards
50.8 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

Dolphins total offensive yards/game average = 317.4 yards
Week 2 vs Texans = 306 total yards
11.4 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

Saints total offensive yards/game average = 467.1 yards
Week 3 vs Texans = 454 total yards
13.1 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

Steelers total offensive yards/game average = 372.3 yards
Week 4 vs Texans = 296 total yards
76.3 fewer yards with Mario in lineup

How about this:
Texans record in 2011 with Mario = 3-1 (.750)
Texans record in 2011 without Mario = 7-5 (.583)

We could do this all day. What would it matter? We're not involved in the decision making. So why make stuff up?

My numbers are different... Not sure why. Perhaps the stats I looked at didn't account for penalty yards or sacks? not sure.

For instance, I have the Saints at over 470 yards. I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Let's say your numbers are correct and mine are not. If you continued to look at the numbers beyond week 5, you will find that the Texans were doing much better than the NFL vs. almost every opponent:

Looking at three of the "awful" offenses Hou-Tex spoke of, the Texans did the following compared to the NFL:

Tennessee - 169 yards vs. year average of 335
Jacksonville- 181 yards vs. year average of 258
Cleveland - 184 yards vs. year average of 288

It's hard to say the defense only appeared good because of the competition. Look at how much better the Texans were against these teams than the rest of the NFL was.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 07:10 PM
2006 still hurts dale's soul. http://static.bbmp3.com/smilies/jackson.gif

Untrue. This is a complete fabrication.

Lucky
03-10-2012, 07:13 PM
My numbers are different... Not sure why.
NFL.com, pro-football-reference.com, espn.com. Go anywhere and you get these numbers.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 07:15 PM
I think both sides can cherry pick stats all day to make their point. If you simply take yards per offensive play, none of the four teams exceeded their average in the four games with Mario (not even the Saints).

I applaud you Dale, for sticking to your guns. I can't believe you've argued your side for so long now. I highly doubt Mario will be a Texan next season, so I hope you're right.

I was thrilled with the defense the first month of the season.. with Mario. I don't mean to suggest it was bad and then he got hurt and his absence fixed the defense. The defense was pretty good very fast and would've likely continued to improve as it did throughout the season. I happen to think Mario's injury may have allowed for quicker and more dramatic improvement resulting from a change in attitude and leadership. However, that's not central to the argument. My point is only this: it was great without him for a sustained and lengthy period of time. That truth means that he is not essential for this defense's success. Therefore, we should not pay him as if he is essential.

EVOLVIST
03-10-2012, 07:32 PM
So, since we're 87 pages in, for the sake or brevity, let's see if I can boil all of this down, without going off into many tangents.

1.) Fact. Regardless of the actual numbers (which none of us know), the Texans are not exactly in the best spot in the NFL with their cap space.

2.) Fact. Without getting into the numbers, the Texans defense did very well without Mario Williams in the lineup. This is a known quantity. There's no reason to think that with another off-season the defense will flounder, indeed, the consensus is that they'll improve.

3.) Fact. Without knowing what's going to happen with Mario Williams there is no way that the Texans can truly plan for the draft, and all these mocks we do (including mine) are stupid, because everything hinges on Williams.

4.) Fact. With Mario Williams gone this makes it a ****ton easier for the Texans to re-sign: Chris Meyers, Mike Briesel, Joel Dreesen and a few other depth guys without changing the chemistry of what is obviously a Super Bowl bid by general consensus around the NFL and among fans.

5.) Fact. With Mario Williams gone it makes it a lot easier for the Texans to reach out and get a quality free agent WR (after excising a little fat from our WR corps), or a quality free agent CB, even. Maybe both if they're willing to sacrifice quys like Jason Allen, Quentin Demps and/or Dominique Barber, for at least one depth guy in the draft. In fact, beyond getting an obvious WR in the draft, the Texans could go primarily defense again and come out roses if they've done their homework.

6.) It's not a fact, but only an opinion, but in my opinion letting Mario Williams walks make a lot more sense than keeping him.

7.) I love MW, but I'd be pissed if the Texans had Mario on defense, and at the same time if Matt Schaub is not ready to go, TJ Yates wouldn't have any extra weapons to work with, not to mention the porous offensive line he and Foster would have to work behind. Even if Schaub was healthy, I don't think he'd be healthy for long behind a line that leaks like a sieve.

On the other hand, without Mario Williams, I would be pleased as hell with a rookie OLB who'll give us 6 additional sacks a year as a rotation guy, as opposed to the 10 Mario will give us as our "billion dollar baby."

Mr teX
03-10-2012, 07:45 PM
This is what we do know...in these 13 games you keep mentioning dale, over 1/2 of those teams had offenses ranked 21st & below. of those 13 games 7 had either a rookie starting qb or a qb with less than a year of starters experience.

The only time we faced a team that had an offense ranked in the top 5 in 2011 in those 13 games...we were smoked 28-13 by carolina...........at home. What's more is that the other game where we faced a team ranked in the top 10 in offense (ATL) our defense was on the ropes & we barely pulled it out.

Now, knowing what we know about next years schedule we can reasonably deduce a few things.

1...there won't be nearly as many rookie & inexperienced qbs & on our schedule as there was in 2011.

2.....the qb play we face is going to go up just by default b/c of #1. the group of
Brady, Rodgers, Sanchez, Cutler, Stafford, Flacco & a few other possible guys is collectively better than the group of misfit toys we just faced. This is not even counting the possibility of facing a healthy manning if he winds up in Miami or Denver....2 other teams on our schedule.

3....we'll be facing 3 of the top 5 offenses from 2011 in 2012...2 of which just had qbs pass for 5k & the other had a qb that narrowly missed 5k, is the reigning league MVP & just had arguably the most efficient year for a qb..........................................ever. In 2011, we only knew we'd be facing 1 from the outset, NO.

Still think that the schedule wasn't that big of an advantage for our defense last year Dale?

We're going to be challenged a helluva lot more next year than we were this past year.

Mr teX
03-10-2012, 07:59 PM
So, since we're 87 pages in, for the sake or brevity, let's see if I can boil all of this down, without going off into many tangents.

1.) Fact. Regardless of the actual numbers (which none of us know), the Texans are not exactly in the best spot in the NFL with their cap space.

2.) Fact. Without getting into the numbers, the Texans defense did very well without Mario Williams in the lineup. This is a known quantity. There's no reason to think that with another off-season the defense will flounder, indeed, the consensus is that they'll improve.

3.) Fact. Without knowing what's going to happen with Mario Williams there is no way that the Texans can truly plan for the draft, and all these mocks we do (including mine) are stupid, because everything hinges on Williams.

4.) Fact. With Mario Williams gone this makes it a ****ton easier for the Texans to re-sign: Chris Meyers, Mike Briesel, Joel Dreesen and a few other depth guys without changing the chemistry of what is obviously a Super Bowl bid by general consensus around the NFL and among fans.

5.) Fact. With Mario Williams gone it makes it a lot easier for the Texans to reach out and get a quality free agent WR (after excising a little fat from our WR corps), or a quality free agent CB, even. Maybe both if they're willing to sacrifice quys like Jason Allen, Quentin Demps and/or Dominique Barber, for at least one depth guy in the draft. In fact, beyond getting an obvious WR in the draft, the Texans could go primarily defense again and come out roses if they've done their homework.

6.) It's not a fact, but only an opinion, but in my opinion letting Mario Williams walks make a lot more sense than keeping him.

7.) I love MW, but I'd be pissed if the Texans had Mario on defense, and at the same time if Matt Schaub is not ready to go, TJ Yates wouldn't have any extra weapons to work with, not to mention the porous offensive line he and Foster would have to work behind. Even if Schaub was healthy, I don't think he'd be healthy for long behind a line that leaks like a sieve.

On the other hand, without Mario Williams, I would be pleased as hell with a rookie OLB who'll give us 6 additional sacks a year as a rotation guy, as opposed to the 10 Mario will give us as our "billion dollar baby."

The bolded aren't facts b/c we don't know who will command what salary wise. We have estimates on everyone, but noone knows for sure & we don't know how up against the cap the FO is. Just as mario can get a ridiculous contract offer that we can't match, Meyers could gets a ridiculous offer from a team that's so far out of whack it wouldn't be good for us to match for the long term.

as i told dale a couple of zillion posts back, any contract of just about any amount can make problems for us in the future, it's not necessarily just the big ones.

cbs1507
03-10-2012, 08:04 PM
My numbers are different... Not sure why. Perhaps the stats I looked at didn't account for penalty yards or sacks? not sure.

For instance, I have the Saints at over 470 yards. I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Let's say your numbers are correct and mine are not. If you continued to look at the numbers beyond week 5, you will find that the Texans were doing much better than the NFL vs. almost every opponent:

Looking at three of the "awful" offenses Hou-Tex spoke of, the Texans did the following compared to the NFL:

Tennessee - 169 yards vs. year average of 335
Jacksonville- 181 yards vs. year average of 258
Cleveland - 184 yards vs. year average of 288

It's hard to say the defense only appeared good because of the competition. Look at how much better the Texans were against these teams than the rest of the NFL was.

No dale it's hard for YOU to say that our defense only appeared good. Nobody said that our defense only appeared good. I said it only appeared to YOU to be better without Mario, since that was your initial argument (amidst a myriad of flip flops) which you have since reneged on.

Yes we held those 3 teams to less than their season average. But you apparently are too delusional to realize that they're season averages are pedestrian at best.

See I can cherry pick my favorite 3 of the 11 games without Mario to make my point too...

Baltimore 402 yards/ season avg. 338 ypg (Joe Flacco seriously?)
Indy 320 yards/ season avg 286 ypg(Dan-O lmao)/
Ten 361 yards/ season avg 335 ypg

...but this is only manipulating the FACTS to serve your point.

Let's look at the WEAK offenses that (by your own admission) produced low numbers due to our lack of offense.

Bal 15th YPG; 12th PPG
Ten 17th YPG; 21st PPG
Jax 32nd YPG; 29th PPG
Cle 29th YPG; 30th PPG
TB 21st YPG; 27th PPG
Jax 32nd YPG; 29th PPG
Atl 10th YPG; 7th PPG
Cin 20th YPG; 18th PPG
Car 7th YPG; 5th PPG
Ind 30th YPG; 28th PPG
Ten 17th YPG; 21st PPG

We only played 2 top 10 offenses down the stretch. Of those 2 only Car was top 10 all season (Atlanta's #'s spiked up after that Jax debacle). You are bragging about our defense dominating the 17th (Ten), 29th (Cle) and 32nd (Jax) ranked offense. How many of those guys went to the playoffs? ZERO. We played 2 playoff teams down the stretch without Mario and one was a pretender (Atlanta). So "we played better without him" is just a figment of you imagination. More like we played well without him.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 08:13 PM
This is what we do know...in these 13 games you keep mentioning dale, over 1/2 of those teams had offenses ranked 21st & below. of those 13 games 7 had either a rookie starting qb or a qb with less than a year of starters experience.

The only time we faced a team that had an offense ranked in the top 5 in 2011 in those 13 games...we were smoked 28-13 by carolina...........at home. What's more is that the other game where we faced a team ranked in the top 10 (ATL) our defense was on the ropes & we barely pulled it out.

Now, knowing what we know about next years schedule we can reasonably deduce a few things.

1...there won't be nearly as many rookie & inexperienced qbs & on our schedule as there was in 2011.

2.....the qb play we face is going to go up just by default b/c of #1. the group of
Brady, Rodgers, Sanchez, Cutler, Stafford, Flacco & a few other possible guys is collectively better than the group of misfit toys we just faced. This is not even counting the possibility of facing a healthy manning if he winds up in Miami or Denver....2 other teams on our schedule.

3....we'll be facing 3 of the top 5 offenses from 2011 in 2012...2 of which just passed for 5k & the other narrowly missed 5k, is the reigning league MVP & just had arguably the most efficient year for a qb..........................................ever. In 2011, we only knew we'd be facing 1 from the outset, NO.

Still think that the schedule wasn't that big of an advantage for our defense last year Dale?

We're going to be challenged a helluva lot more next year than we were this past year.

If you are asking me if I expect the Texans to hold Green Bay and New England to les than 200 yards per game because they did that to Tennessee and Cleveland, the answer is "of course not". However, I don't care whether Mario is part of the team or not, the Texans defense will be challenged greatly by those teams. That is not at issue. All I have said is that the Texans defense played great without Mario last year.

You want to attribute that to the schedule. I find that to be silly and I have indicated why. I realize the Texans will play a somewhat more difficult out of division schedule this year. I still don't know what that has to do with Mario Williams.

You act like he is a panacea. He has never been part of a good defense. Never... with the exception of that one month in 2011. If the Texans defense was very good without him over a 13 game span and so bad with him over the course of an 80 game span, how on earth can you see that he is vital to the team's success in 2012? It simply defies logic.

The Texans will likely give up a bunch of yards to GB and NE regardless of Mario's presence.... just like the defense will likely give up very few yards to Indy, Tennessee, Jacksonville, NYJets, Chicago whether Mario is there or not. This is my point. He's not the difference-maker for this Texans team that demands the money he will get in the market. There simply is no on-field evidence in his 6 years in Houston that his presence makes the defense good. His presence certainly helped some very bad defenses be less bad. I'm sure he can do that for someone else too. However, that's not us. We are a very good defense with or without him. Let's save the cap resources and spread them out. Why not?

EVOLVIST
03-10-2012, 08:19 PM
The bolded aren't facts b/c we don't know who will command what salary wise. We have estimates on everyone, but noone knows for sure & we don't know how up against the cap the FO is. Just as mario can get a ridiculous contract offer that we can't match, Meyers could gets a ridiculous offer from a team that's so far out of whack it wouldn't be good for us to match for the long term.

as i told dale a couple of zillion posts back, any contract of just about any amount can make problems for us in the future, it's not necessarily just the big ones.

The "facts" I state are the probability of ease without Mario vs. with Mario, as the Texans would be in an easier position to match and make deals.

I fully realize that it is possible that the Texans, Mario Williams, Chris Meyers and Mike Briesel all come to an agreement, though the probability is not so great. I would love that! However, getting extra help in free agency would certainly almost disintegrate with Mario Williams on roster, while seriously mortgaging the future of our franchise for one person. Perhaps.

Personally, with a ton of talent in our defensive line rotation, not only do I fail to see how one person, who is not even in the top-5 in his position can make that much of a difference, but also, with the schedule coming up, I'm sorry, but unless we get some help at CB #2, even with a great pass rush, the possibility of Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson getting carved up is pretty damn good.

Unless one of our "secret weapons," i.e. Brandon Harris or Roc Charmichael suddenly set the world afire? Wow!

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 08:23 PM
No dale it's hard for YOU to say that our defense only appeared good. Nobody said that our defense only appeared good. I said it only appeared to YOU to be better without Mario, since that was your initial argument (amidst a myriad of flip flops) which you have since reneged on.

Yes we held those 3 teams to less than their season average. But you apparently are too delusional to realize that they're season averages are pedestrian at best.

See I can cherry pick my favorite 3 of the 11 games without Mario to make my point too...

Baltimore 402 yards/ season avg. 338 ypg (Joe Flacco seriously?)
Indy 320 yards/ season avg 286 ypg(Dan-O lmao)/
Ten 361 yards/ season avg 335 ypg

...but this is only manipulating the FACTS to serve your point.

Let's look at the WEAK offenses that (by your own admission) produced low numbers due to our lack of offense.

Bal 15th YPG; 12th PPG
Ten 17th YPG; 21st PPG
Jax 32nd YPG; 29th PPG
Cle 29th YPG; 30th PPG
TB 21st YPG; 27th PPG
Jax 32nd YPG; 29th PPG
Atl 10th YPG; 7th PPG
Cin 20th YPG; 18th PPG
Car 7th YPG; 5th PPG
Ind 30th YPG; 28th PPG
Ten 17th YPG; 21st PPG

We only played 2 top 10 offenses down the stretch. Of those 2 only Car was top 10 all season (Atlanta's #'s spiked up after that Jax debacle). You are bragging about our defense dominating the 17th (Ten), 29th (Cle) and 32nd (Jax) ranked offense. How many of those guys went to the playoffs? ZERO. We played 2 playoff teams down the stretch without Mario and one was a pretender (Atlanta). So "we played better without him" is just a figment of you imagination. More like we played well without him.


Your examples are pretty ridiculous... I wasn't cherry-picking. I was responding to the complaint by Hou-Tex (I think) that those teams made our defense appear better than it was. It was his list.. not mine.

Baltimore - was the 1st game without Mario and an adjustment. Check out the playoff game at Baltimore, when things really mattered... how did they do?

Indy and Carolina- There is one essential member of the Texans defense and that's Wade Phillips. Clearly, his absence greatly hurt the Texans defense.

Tennessee in week 17- This is the game we had Joel Dreessen playing linebacker, right? The one where we rested most of our starters, played our deep reserves and still almost won? This is the game you choose to prove the Texans need Mario. (who wouldn't have played anyway... and couldn't play because he was on the I.R.).

It amazes me that you actually calling the Texans defense pretenders last season. What the heck were you watching?

Look, I realize stats can be cherry-picked to show anything. You certainly prove that point by using the Tennessee game in week 17. What I'm saying is that 13 games in a row without Mario is a huge sample that transcends these arguments. They played good teams, bad team, playoff teams... they played two games in the playoffs... Taken as a whole, they were excellent in any measurement you want to look at. Of course they had an occasional off week... Do you deny that will happen with mario on the team?

Dutchrudder
03-10-2012, 08:25 PM
No problem:

1. That would suck!

2. I have a ton of confidence in Barwin. I predicted before the season that he would finish with 10+ sacks- that was before he beat out Reed for the job in the preseason: Here's the evidence (http://www.texansbullblog.com/prediction-2009-texans-draft/news/)

3. I think the team needs to address Mario's loss with a free agent. There are a number of guys that would be good depth/rotation for Reed and Barwin... and affordable.

4. I think OLB would be a position likely addressed in the first 3 or 4 rounds of the draft.

Letting Mario go is about improving depth, not limiting it. People make fun of me because I want the Texans to lock up guys like Glover Quin, Brice McCain, James Casey, Mike Brisiel... But, it's because I think they are very good value and I respect the importance of depth. I don't think there is any player, other than QB, that is worth what Mario Williams will likely command.

http://i.qkme.me/36jeme.jpg

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 08:29 PM
http://i.qkme.me/36jeme.jpg

Huh? my prediction was in Sept. 3, 2011. I don't get your point? Here (http://www.texansbullblog.com/prediction-2009-texans-draft/news/)

I do like Gene Wilder, though.

Mr teX
03-10-2012, 08:32 PM
If you are asking me if I expect the Texans to hold Green Bay and New England to les than 200 yards per game because they did that to Tennessee and Cleveland, the answer is "of course not". However, I don't care whether Mario is part of the team or not, the Texans defense will be challenged greatly by those teams. That is not at issue. All I have said is that the Texans defense played great without Mario last year.

You want to attribute that to the schedule. I find that to be silly and I have indicated why. I realize the Texans will play a somewhat more difficult out of division schedule this year. I still don't know what that has to do with Mario Williams.

You act like he is a panacea. He has never been part of a good defense. Never... with the exception of that one month in 2011. If the Texans defense was very good without him over a 13 game span and so bad with him over the course of an 80 game span, how on earth can you see that he is vital to the team's success in 2012? It simply defies logic.

The Texans will likely give up a bunch of yards to GB and NE regardless of Mario's presence.... just like the defense will likely give up very few yards to Indy, Tennessee, Jacksonville, NYJets, Chicago whether Mario is there or not. This is my point. He's not the difference-maker for this Texans team that demands the money he will get in the market. There simply is no on-field evidence in his 6 years in Houston that his presence makes the defense good. His presence certainly helped some very bad defenses be less bad. I'm sure he can do that for someone else too. However, that's not us. We are a very good defense with or without him. Let's save the cap resources and spread them out. Why not?

:brickwall:

I don't know what kind of logic you're using, but i'm starting to believe what I-cak said about it being faulty as once again you miss the point and trail off on another tangent. You mean 80 games with him being our only talented pass rusher you mean? yeah, i expect the defense to suck. :kubepalm:

:clap: congratulations, you've successfully exhausted all my patience with you on this subject. I'm out.

Dutchrudder
03-10-2012, 08:36 PM
Huh? my prediction was in Sept. 3, 2011. I don't get your point? Here (http://www.texansbullblog.com/prediction-2009-texans-draft/news/)

I do like Gene Wilder, though.

Oops, sorry, read that as 2009 for some reason...

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 08:51 PM
:brickwall:

I don't know what kind of logic you're using, but i'm starting to believe what I-cak said about it being faulty as once again you miss the point and trail off on another tangent. You mean 80 games with him being our only talented pass rusher you mean? yeah, i expect the defense to suck. :kubepalm:

:clap: congratulations, you've successfully exhausted all my patience with you on this subject. I'm out.

EXACTLY! One player doesn't make enough of a difference. Hence: team concept and the theory that we shouldn't pay one player the kind of money Mario will command in a couple more days.

You guys are so busy defending Mario that the real issue alludes you. Market value vs. real value. However great you may think Mario is, the reality is that his impact on the game, as you just said, isn't enough to justify eating up a large chunk of the cap. Quarterbacks make that kind of impact. Seldom do other position players. Where am I wrong on this?

cbs1507
03-10-2012, 09:01 PM
Your examples are pretty ridiculous... I wasn't cherry-picking. I was responding to the complaint by Hou-Tex (I think) that those teams made our defense appear better than it was. It was his list.. not mine.

Baltimore - was the 1st game without Mario and an adjustment. Check out the playoff game at Baltimore, when things really mattered... how did they do?

Indy and Carolina- There is one essential member of the Texans defense and that's Wade Phillips. Clearly, his absence greatly hurt the Texans defense.

Tennessee in week 17- This is the game we had Joel Dreessen playing linebacker, right? The one where we rested most of our starters, played our deep reserves and still almost won? This is the game you choose to prove the Texans need Mario. (who wouldn't have played anyway... and couldn't play because he was on the I.R.).

It amazes me that you actually calling the Texans defense pretenders last season. What the heck were you watching?

Look, I realize stats can be cherry-picked to show anything. You certainly prove that point by using the Tennessee game in week 17. What I'm saying is that 13 games in a row without Mario is a huge sample that transcends these arguments. They played good teams, bad team, playoff teams... they played two games in the playoffs... Taken as a whole, they were excellent in any measurement you want to look at. Of course they had an occasional off week... Do you deny that will happen with mario on the team?

Fair enough. I did not see that in his post. With that in mind, the rest of your reply to mine is irrelevant then.

That would be amazing...except I never called the Texans "pretenders". :mariopalm: The "pretenders" comment was aimed at Atlanta.

The only good teams we played went to the playoffs and one of them were pretenders like I said the other had a vanilla offense so it's not surprise that we were better prepared the 2nd time. The rest were all bad teams including Cin, which I called overrated earlier in the season before they played the big dogs in their division (probably on the other MB).

At the end of the day you still cannot deny that we played weak teams with weak offenses down the stretch.

BTW Just to comment on your excuse for the Carolina and Indy games. If Wade is that important to us, imagine if we had the defense you think so highly of without Mario and say Wade took a HC job elsewhere in 2013. This team would crumble, especially if we had to switch to a 4-3 with the new DC. Those guys you think so highly of wouldn't be as valuable as you thought then. Reed is too small to be a 4-3 DE and too slow to be a 4-3 LB. Barwin could switch over the DE, but how good would he be now that he does not have a DL to play off of. But Mario on the other hand would still be able to fit regardless of the system. So it doesn't really matter what your opinion is about Mario, but he most definitely is more valuable than you perceive.

gafftop
03-10-2012, 09:01 PM
I'm fairly certain he would've kept playing if there was something to play for.

At the time he quit he was a liabilty on D. He would have been a liability in the playoffs. My opinion.

arb729
03-10-2012, 09:04 PM
Let's shift focus a bit.

How are we all going to feel if the Patriots sign Mario? I would say that's who I'm most worried about him going to.

They had a failed experiment with Adilius Thomas I'm well aware, but Mario (whether you like him or not) is much more talented than Thomas. With him, I really think they become the best team in the league.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 09:09 PM
Fair enough. I did not see that in his post. With that in mind, the rest of your reply to mine is irrelevant then.

That would be amazing...except I never called the Texans "pretenders". :mariopalm: The "pretenders" comment was aimed at Atlanta.

BTW Just to comment on your excuse for the Carolina and Indy games. If Wade is that important to us, imagine if we had the defense you think so highly of without Mario and say Wade took a HC job elsewhere in 2013. This team would crumble, especially if we had to switch to a 4-3 with the new DC. Those guys you think so highly of wouldn't be as valuable as you thought then. Reed is too small to be a 4-3 DE and too slow to be a 4-3 LB. Barwin could switch over the DE, but how good would he be now that he does not have a DL to play off of. But Mario on the other hand would still be able to fit regardless of the system. So it doesn't really matter what your opinion is about Mario, but he most definitely is more valuable than you perceive.


Well, we better not be making decisions like this based on the possibility that our coaching staff and scheme may change in the future.

By the way, once again, how were the Texans in a 4-3 defense with Mario Williams and without Wade Phillips? If Wade leaves and we hire another poor defensive coordinator to run another vanilla 4-3 then Brooks Reed's size is the least of my concern.

When you argue that the Texans success was, almost exclusively, a result of circumstance and not skill then you are calling them "pretenders".

gafftop
03-10-2012, 09:10 PM
Well, since you are the one that started it, let me ask you a question.

After all this time, you've learned that some favor letting Mario walk, and you learned that some favor re-signing him.

So what do you think the ratio is? About 50/50? And can you think of one person whose mind was changed since you started it?

Yeah, I'd be tired of it, too.

I think the ratio is more like 65% 35% in favor of letting him walk. Look at some of the other threads.

I started this thread about 1 year ago. I think in that time many people have changed their minds. I think many people never even considered trying to trade Mario last year before the season started.

Let me ask you a question. Based on where we are presently would you rather sign Mario now and push us closer to cap hell or would you rather have traded him last year for say a couple 2nd round draft choices or maybe a real no. 2 WR and a 2nd round draft choice.

cbs1507
03-10-2012, 09:13 PM
EXACTLY! One player doesn't make enough of a difference. Hence: team concept and the theory that we shouldn't pay one player the kind of money Mario will command in a couple more days.

You guys are so busy defending Mario that the real issue alludes you. Market value vs. real value. However great you may think Mario is, the reality is that his impact on the game, as you just said, isn't enough to justify eating up a large chunk of the cap. Quarterbacks make that kind of impact. Seldom do other position players. Where am I wrong on this?

Market value vs Real value. Who's ignoring that? You're the main person. Do you even know what the market value for him would be? You invent some baseless numbers based on your imagination to insists how financially Mario will hurt the team.

1) You do not know the Texans cap number for 2012.
2) I've already discussed in detail with you the ball park numbers of the market value for Mario and how the Texans could make it work.
3) I've already discussed with you in detail the reason why he is worth the market value, or at least around it.

You just choose the IGNORE fact and flip lop your arguments to continue a cycle.

BTW Tex never said anything about Mario not affecting the game. That is just your inability to comprehend, or maybe selective comprehension. He said that Mario was the best player on a bad team. You even admitted that he made those bad teams better, so your trying to say that he claimed Mario does not effect the game is nothing more than a fabrication.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 09:13 PM
Let's shift focus a bit.

How are we all going to feel if the Patriots sign Mario? I would say that's who I'm most worried about him going to.

They had a failed experiment with Adilius Thomas I'm well aware, but Mario (whether you like him or not) is much more talented than Thomas. With him, I really think they become the best team in the league.


If healthy, he would make them scarier. However, that's all guesswork. Let's see what their defense, as a whole, looks like before we start worrying about that. Again, in the NFL, I don't think one player has the kind of impact we as fans often invision.

arb729
03-10-2012, 09:18 PM
If healthy, he would make them scarier. However, that's all guesswork. Let's see what their defense, as a whole, looks like before we start worrying about that. Again, in the NFL, I don't think one player has the kind of impact we as fans often invision.

fair enough, I just really think he's the one piece that can push them over the top. Granted, everything anyone says preseason is really just "on paper", but that's the point of MBs, newspapers, blogs, etc. To speculate.

dalemurphy
03-10-2012, 09:30 PM
Market value vs Real value. Who's ignoring that? You're the main person. Do you even know what the market value for him would be? You invent some baseless numbers based on your imagination to insists how financially Mario will hurt the team.

1) You do not know the Texans cap number for 2012.
2) I've already discussed in detail with you the ball park numbers of the market value for Mario and how the Texans could make it work.
3) I've already discussed with you in detail the reason why he is worth the market value, or at least around it.

You just choose the IGNORE fact and flip lop your arguments to continue a cycle.

BTW Tex never said anything about Mario not affecting the game. That is just your inability to comprehend, or maybe selective comprehension. He said that Mario was the best player on a bad team. You even admitted that he made those bad teams better, so your trying to say that he claimed Mario does not effect the game is nothing more than a fabrication.


I'm expecting Mario to get more than Charles Johnson did: 6yrs and $72 million. Most people that follow this stuff expect him to get, at least, what Peppers did (6yrs and $84 mill). If his deal ends up around 6 and $54 million then I'll feel alright with that and have said that repeatedly.

I never said Mario can/does not effect the game. I said that he is not essential to the success of this group on defense. I have no doubt that a healthy Mario, on the right team, will make their defense. I could argue that those resources could be better spent on a group of players, though.

cbs1507
03-10-2012, 09:30 PM
Well, we better not be making decisions like this based on the possibility that our coaching staff and scheme may change in the future.

By the way, once again, how were the Texans in a 4-3 defense with Mario Williams and without Wade Phillips? If Wade leaves and we hire another poor defensive coordinator to run another vanilla 4-3 then Brooks Reed's size is the least of my concern.

When you argue that the Texans success was, almost exclusively, a result of circumstance and not skill then you are calling them "pretenders".

But dale you keep talking about the future of our franchise, which could very well be without Wade Phillips. He already flirted with the idea this season. Who's to say it couldn't happen if he got the right situation?

Anyway, why would we hire some "poor" coordinator with a "vanilla" scheme? Mario never had Barwin, Watt, D. Manning and J. Joe (you know talent) type of players at the same time. You're making circular arguments without considering the FACTS dale. In fact 2010 could have been a successful season (Mario sports hernia and all leading us in sacks) with just a decent back end, since it was in fact mainly our secondary that cost us that season.

Of course people such as yourself are clouded with delusion just to make an argument against Mario.

BTW dale. I am not arguing that the Texans success was based on circumstance that was you brother. You said Matt Schaub's absence led to a lack of offensive production which took pressure of opposing teams to score and throw which led to the low yardage given up by our defense without Mario. If I didn't know any better I'd say that you're calling us pretenders dale, since YOUR argument fits YOUR own description of "pretenders".

I'm expecting Mario to get more than Charles Johnson did: 6yrs and $72 million. Most people that follow this stuff expect him to get, at least, what Peppers did (6yrs and $84 mill). If his deal ends up around 6 and $54 million then I'll feel alright with that and have said that repeatedly.

I never said Mario can/does not effect the game. I said that he is not essential to the success of this group on defense. I have no doubt that a healthy Mario, on the right team, will make their defense. I could argue that those resources could be better spent on a group of players, though.

See what I mean by you just invent up baseless numbers using your imagination just to make a point. 6 years $54 is not happening. So get out of your delusion dale. 6 year $72m could be possible, but that is the low point. I'd think it would be in the $13m-$15m range (since the highest per year contract is $15m even though it's just a 2 yr deal). The Texans aren't foolish enough to try to low ball the guy. They will start off reasonable, because unlike yourself they actually know the value of a player like Mario Williams. We just need to have him at a reasonable cap hit for 2012...somewhere around $10m ($8m less than his cap hit last year). We can structure it according to the projected rise in the future salary cap.

BTW I said you accused Tex of saying that, not you said it. But forget about it.

Marcus
03-10-2012, 10:07 PM
I think the ratio is more like 65% 35% in favor of letting him walk. Look at some of the other threads.

I started this thread about 1 year ago. I think in that time many people have changed their minds. I think many people never even considered trying to trade Mario last year before the season started.

Let me ask you a question. Based on where we are presently would you rather sign Mario now and push us closer to cap hell or would you rather have traded him last year for say a couple 2nd round draft choices or maybe a real no. 2 WR and a 2nd round draft choice.

Sign him.

I have looked at the other threads. It's the same regurgitated stuff repeated over and over and over and over. And unless you start naming names, I call bull**** on your contention that anybody's minds have changed.

steelbtexan
03-11-2012, 12:34 AM
Lets play the what if game

What if Wade leaves= What if Gary gets run over by a bus
What if MW leaves = Best defense the team has ever had last yr without MW for most of the yr.
What if MW re-signs for the type of contract he will demand = Cap Hell
What if MW re-signs and JoJo gets hurt for most of the yr = Defense stinks
What if MW walks and JoJo gets hurt = Defense stinks

CloakNNNdagger
03-11-2012, 08:19 AM
From Rotoworld: (http://rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football)

FOX Sports Southwest confirms the Cowboys will ''make a run'' at free agent DE Mario Williams, but believe it's unlikely they'll get him at anything less than market value.

The Cowboys are projected to be $14 million under the salary cap this offseason, which could make signing Williams cost prohibitive given their investments at outside linebacker and needs in other areas. Williams is likely to command a contract similar to the six-year, $84 million deal Julius Peppers received from Chicago.

marks01234
03-11-2012, 09:41 AM
So far I've heard Dallas, Buffalo, Seattle, Denver, Oakland, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Tennessee, San Deigo, Miami, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay, New England. Chicago, Carolina and Detriot.

Mario's agent must be a busy man.

leebigeztx
03-11-2012, 11:29 AM
What's funny about dalemurphy's quote "once properly aligned" is that on 3rd and long,barwin was down on the line rushing the passer with mario and wasn't generated heat from 4 dl. I think wade did an outstanding job creating pressure w/o mario. He would probably tell anyone worth looking at film that he did unsoundly by bringing cushing a lot to help eat up the inside and give barwin free runs at the qb. It also healped playing against some terrible offenses,so he could be a little exotic. We can go round and round and I won't change your opinion because you have in your head the defense played better. Free agency is coming quick and we will see soon enough.

thunderkyss
03-11-2012, 11:30 AM
** Please stop misrepresenting my position. I have never, and still do not, have any complaint/criticism of Mario Williams before the second half of 2009.

The thing that gets me, about your position.
First, you say it's about the money & you don't agree with paying anyone but a QB that kind of money. But when asked if you'd take Mario for $9M/yr, you still say no even though that is a hell of a discount for that position.

Second, you don't believe he is as good as most people believe him to be. Even the people outside of Houston think he is the best pass rusher in this FA class, but you believe there is a suitable replacement for him out there.

No problem:
Letting Mario go is about improving depth, not limiting it. People make fun of me because I want the Texans to lock up guys like Glover Quin, Brice McCain, James Casey, Mike Brisiel... But, it's because I think they are very good value and I respect the importance of depth. I don't think there is any player, other than QB, that is worth what Mario Williams will likely command.

& that's fine. If you want to be cheap, just say you want to be cheap don't come up with some "obscure" measure like effort. He might not be a "high effort" guy, or a "fast twitch" guy, but he puts it all on the field every snap. If he didn't, like Haynesworth or Moss, you wouldn't be in the minority with this opinion (which you are).

Dutchrudder
03-11-2012, 11:38 AM
So far I've heard Dallas, Buffalo, Seattle, Denver, Oakland, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Tennessee, San Deigo, Miami, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay, New England. Chicago, Carolina and Detriot.

Mario's agent must be a busy man.

Good, I hope many of them get dinged for tampering and give us some picks.

Vinny
03-11-2012, 11:41 AM
Dumervil on 1 side...Miller on the other...Williams anchoring that DL....nasty.till Mario gets hurt.

thunderkyss
03-11-2012, 11:41 AM
I am getting tired of hearing, "If Mario is on the team next year we will be great. Just think if Mario was on the team during the playoffs...We need depth... etc. " Mario was on the team last year and he got hurt. Mario was on the team the year before and in what would have been crunch time if the Texans were in the playoffs where was he, on the bench injured. The reason we needed depth last year was Mario was hurt again.


At the end of the year, Kubiak praised Reed & Barwin for stepping up, not only with the quality of their play, but also the quantity. They played an enormous amount of snaps over the last few games, because there was no one else behind them.

If we keep that up, we're going to have the same problem we would have if we handed the ball off to Foster 40 times a game, or asked Schaub to keep dropping back 50 times a game.

Personally, I'm fine with losing Mario. However, if that were to happen I want the Texans to get the best pass rusher they can in the draft. If that means we need to trade up to do it... fine. If that means we need to reach, we need to reach, because I guarantee you Barwin & Reed will not be as affective if they are our only outside pass rushers all year long.

& not only are we asking a lot of Barwin (who has missed a lot of games in his short career) but we're asking a lot of Jj Watt & Brooks Reed. Two guys going into their sophomore season where they should take the biggest jump in their NFL careers. With Mario (or another bonafide pass rusher) it would be easier & more certain for them to bloom into the players we want them to be.

Lucky
03-11-2012, 11:50 AM
till Mario gets hurt.
That's where Tebow and his ability to heal by laying of hands comes into play. Or am I getting Tim and Benny Hinn confused?

GP
03-11-2012, 12:19 PM
So far I've heard Dallas, Buffalo, Seattle, Denver, Oakland, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Tennessee, San Deigo, Miami, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay, New England. Chicago, Carolina and Detriot.

Mario's agent must be a busy man.

If that list is accurate, then HOLY COW!

17 teams. More than half of the NFL set to make offers on March 13.

IF that list is true, we are screwwwwwwwwed. It'd be anybody's guess where he goes. Highest bidder? Or best offer from a select number of competitive teams he thinks he stands a good chance with?

LOL.

thunderkyss
03-11-2012, 12:24 PM
If they do, I'll be rooting for the guy and hoping I'm wrong. Furthermore, if the Texans do re-sign him, it will make me second-guess what I've been arguing, because I am a big believer in Smith and Kubiak. Part of my confidence in my position comes from my belief that Kubiak and Smith don't want him back. If they re-sign him, I will be full of mixed emotions, uncertainty, but hoping for the best for the Texans.

That's the way I felt during the Dunta franchise fiasco.

Surely they didn't want him. When he turned down their offer, I though, "pshew, they low balled his butt to get him out of here."

Then I heard it was a substantial offer that Dunta turned down, so I had to re-think Dunta Robinson. So I really watched him through-out the year. His coverage skills were better than I gave him credit for (I actually think he improved his coverage skills), but his physical play took a dramatic drop.

I don't think his coverage ability was good enough to pay him what he wanted, especially without the physicality he had become known for. I figured he eased up, because his future wasn't guaranteed & didn't want another injury to set him back.

So I watched him in Atlanta... coverage was fine.. & he was bringing the wood.

Had the Texan managed to keep Dunta Robinson, I would have been upset, because I felt like Dunta set the cap. Unless we drafted a CB in the 4th or later that just outplayed his draft slot (Quin) we would never attempt to get a CB better than Robinson & I thought we desperately needed to.

So, if that's where you are with Mario, I understand. I don't agree, but I understand.

thunderkyss
03-11-2012, 12:45 PM
I don't think Mario will be back and if he's going to command the type of money we all think he is then I actually don't want him back. He's been a very good player for us but I don't think he's a great player.

& that's fine. But, I like to ask everyone what their number is for two reasons. To judge if we over payed, or if we got a hometown discount.

Personally, I think we overpayed if his avg salary is over $14M (I think we should be able to sign him for $12M, $14M is my max. One penny over $14M & we over payed).

Even though I believe he is truly worth $12M, I will think we got a hometown discount if we sign him at $12M or lower... such is the case of FA.

He has very good stats, but at the end of the day if you're talking about fearsome defensive end/OLB I can give you 10 guys who are more dangerous than Mario. For example, Dwight Freeney, Justin Tuck, Jason Pierre Paul, Clay Matthews, DeMarcus Ware, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Elvis Dumervil, and etc.

For everyone of those guys, you can find someone on their team who is a threat to get 8 sacks a year, or two or more guys who is a threat to get 5.

Mario has never had that luxury, until now. We have never had two or more players other than Mario to get 5 or more sacks in a single year. This year, was the first year someone other than Mario Williams got 8 or more sacks.

Antonio Smith will cost $8M against our cap & 2011 was the first year he finished with more than 5 sacks.

Sacks aren't the end all be all of DE stats, I know. But generally speaking, if your sack numbers are up, all your other numbers are up. Antonio may look like he's more "active" than Mario, but he's nowhere near as productive & he's only been making $1M/yr less than Mario for the last three years.


I don't want to see us in salary cap hell just because of one player. If the price is reasonable he should be re-signed if not then I wish him well and thank him for his hard work and no complain attitude.

We're not in the funny money days of years past. The Salary cap was at $129M prior to the expiration of the last CBA. Somehow, the owners got a big one over on the players & brought the cap down almost $10M for two consecutive years.

But you don't get into cap hell by paying players what they are worth. You get into hell by paying guys more than what they are worth. Mario is easily a top 10 DE in the league. Arguably top 5. He should be paid accordingly.

If there is a way, they'll make it work. I don't think Smithiak will over pay for Mario. That's what they are paid to do. If it's all about the dollars for Williams (which he has stated it wasn't) he'll be sent on his way. But don't be surprised to see him sign somewhere between $12M & $14M... & when it happens, don't say we overpaid.

ThaShark316
03-11-2012, 12:59 PM
So far I've heard Dallas, Buffalo, Seattle, Denver, Oakland, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Tennessee, San Deigo, Miami, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay, New England. Chicago, Carolina and Detriot.

Mario's agent must be a busy man.

On that list...one team is better than the Texans (in 2011). And that 1 team, we would have kicked their asses had we got to face them.

dalemurphy
03-11-2012, 01:27 PM
Antonio Smith will cost $8M against our cap & 2011 was the first year he finished with more than 5 sacks.

Sacks aren't the end all be all of DE stats, I know. But generally speaking, if your sack numbers are up, all your other numbers are up. Antonio may look like he's more "active" than Mario, but he's nowhere near as productive & he's only been making $1M/yr less than Mario for the last three years.
.

That is wildly inaccurate... Mario made $18 million just last season. Antonio wasn't making $17 million last year. So, I have no idea what you are talking about. Also, A. Smith was certainly more productive than Mario last year. Mario was on the bench, injured, when it mattered. I know anyone can get hurt. However, if you are paying a guy that kind of money, he needs to be a very good bet to stay healthy.

mussop
03-11-2012, 02:04 PM
On that list...one team is better than the Texans (in 2011). And that 1 team, we would have kicked their asses had we got to face them.

Yes but add the elite super Mario and any of these teams would have the best defense in the league. Haven't you been reading these threads?

leebigeztx
03-11-2012, 02:08 PM
@JasonLaCanforaFranchise tags: QB $14.436; RB $7.742; WR $9.515; TE $5.446: OL $9.383; DE $10.605; DT $7.96j LB $8.856; CB $10.281: S $6.212 K/P $2.6