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badboy
02-18-2012, 09:10 PM
I think the idea that people are using when they say that we can't afford him is that there will be a team that will outbid us even if we give him every last piece of our cap space.

If Mario hits the open market, I'm not saying he's for sure gone, but it's going to be very difficult for him to resist the temptation of being probably the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. It's not every year that a 27 year old stud pass rusher comes onto the open market. He may have some injury issues, but teams like Seattle, Jacksonville, or whoever are probably going to be more than happy to risk many 10's of millions of dollars on Mario Williams. If Mario wants to stay a Texan it's almost a guarantee that he will have to take a deal that will give the Texans enough cap space to sign Foster to a nice contract, because that guy is pretty much the heart and soul of the offense. Foster doesn't need to have a giganto contract like Peterson or Johnson, but I think we need to offer him top5 RB salary because that's what he is.

I do believe Williams wants to stay in Houston based off of the few articles already posted here, but want to, and will are worlds apart.I think Mario will know that he coud have had money that others offer but just not seem like an ego fluffing player. I think a top 5 RB contract will satisy Foster who realizes Tate can extend his career. Those two guys seem to feed oof each other and enjoy the 2 back approach.

leebigeztx
02-18-2012, 11:33 PM
http://mobile.minnesota.sbnation.com/minnesota-vikings/2011/9/10/2417354/adrian-peterson-contract-extension-guarantee-36-million/in/2180932

Here is that link about the peterson deal. For those who don't want to read, if they skip to the bottom and the article says after the 3rd yr when little to no guarantee money is left. Why is that? Because they guaranteed the 1st 3 yrs of the money. Top that of,they can still pay foster and meyers good deals if they have to.

Lucky
02-19-2012, 08:52 AM
That's another story all together. Not even the staunchest Mario supporter here is suggesting we over-pay the man.
The disagreement would be over what "over pay" means. I have to admit, it's amusing to see all of the wannabe GMs and agents come up with contract terms. When Mario signs, there will be some that think the contract is too high, some will feel the Texans got a deal, and some that will believe it was fair to both sides.

thunderkyss
02-19-2012, 09:17 AM
The disagreement would be over what "over pay" means. I have to admit, it's amusing to see all of the wannabe GMs and agents come up with contract terms. When Mario signs, there will be some that think the contract is too high, some will feel the Texans got a deal, and some that will believe it was fair to both sides.

Not that it means much, but I'm going on record now.... anything that exceeds Julius Peppers deal is over-paying. Avg salary ($14M), guaranteed money ($42M over 3 years), Total value ($92M over 6 years).

The Bears overpaid for Peppers 2 years ago. That pushed up the value for a guy like Charles Johnson, which drives up the value of a Mario Williams. In my mind, that value is between Johnson's deal & Peppers' deal, so anything over Pepper's deal is overpaying.

To me.

Lucky
02-19-2012, 09:26 AM
From the Jets blog on ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/jets/post/_/id/10746/sunday-notes-jets-will-pass-on-mario):


1. The Jets chased the most coveted free agent last offseason, ultimately losing CB Nnamdi Asomugha to the Eagles. The No. 1 prize in the upcoming free-agent market is Texans DE/OLB Mario Williams, who could land the richest contract in history for a defensive player. Even though the Jets have a glaring need for a 3-4 OLB, they are expected to sit out the Williams sweepstakes. The primary reason is cap room. As of last week, they had less than $500,000 in projected cap space. They can create room by restructuring bloated contracts and cutting players -- and they probably will -- but they evidently prefer to use the money to address several needs instead of putting all their eggs in the Williams basket.

2. There's also some question about whether Williams can be a 3-4 OLB. He debuted in that role last season, switching to a stand-up position in Wade Phillips' 3-4 scheme. He showed promise (five sacks in four-plus games), but it was short-lived because of a torn pectoral muscle. We're talking about only 225 snaps, including just 17 plays in which he dropped into pass coverage, according to Pro Football Focus. The Jets use their OLBs in pass coverage roughly 20 percent of the time, so there would be some adjustment.
Never even heard the Jets mentioned as a possible landing for Mario.

Changing the thread title to include any Mario to (fill in the blank) rumor.

ckhouston
02-19-2012, 09:28 AM
From the Jets blog on ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/jets/post/_/id/10746/sunday-notes-jets-will-pass-on-mario):


Never even heard the Jets mentioned as a possible landing for Mario.

Changing the thread title to include any Mario to (fill in the blank) rumor.

Should change this and all other Mario is leaving threads to "Blah, and blah blah".

Lucky
02-19-2012, 09:31 AM
Should change this and all other Mario is leaving threads to "Blah, and blah blah".
It should all be over soon enough. There will be some disappointed fans, regardless of whether Mario stays or leaves. And a lot of "I told ya so" posts.

False Start
02-19-2012, 09:34 AM
It should all be over soon enough. There will be some disappointed fans, regardless of whether Mario stays or leaves. And a lot of "I told ya so" posts.

I wish it would just hurry up and happen, whether he stays or goes.

Lucky
02-19-2012, 09:37 AM
I wish it would just hurry up and happen, whether he stays or goes.
23 days or less.

drs23
02-19-2012, 10:02 AM
Not that it means much, but I'm going on record now.... anything that exceeds Julius Peppers deal is over-paying. Avg salary ($14M), guaranteed money ($42M over 3 years), Total value ($92M over 6 years).

The Bears overpaid for Peppers 2 years ago. That pushed up the value for a guy like Charles Johnson, which drives up the value of a Mario Williams. In my mind, that value is between Johnson's deal & Peppers' deal, so anything over Pepper's deal is overpaying.

To me.

Hide-n-watch it happen. By someone...

Texecutioner
02-19-2012, 02:19 PM
I wish it would just hurry up and happen, whether he stays or goes.

Hopefully he goes and we can spend money on players that are high motor guys on every play that are worth the money.

DocBar
02-19-2012, 05:43 PM
Hopefully he goes and we can spend money on players that are high motor guys on every play that are worth the money.Whether MW stays or goes is less important than signing our other FA's. If he takes a hometown discount and we sign our oither guys, then all is well and good til next season.

badboy
02-19-2012, 06:46 PM
The disagreement would be over what "over pay" means. I have to admit, it's amusing to see all of the wannabe GMs and agents come up with contract terms. When Mario signs, there will be some that think the contract is too high, some will feel the Texans got a deal, and some that will believe it was fair to both sides.Is that true only about Mario and sports or just about anything in life?

DocBar
02-19-2012, 06:49 PM
Is that true only about Mario and sports or just about anything in life?Who cares? This scenario directly applies to to Mario and the Texans.

thunderkyss
02-19-2012, 07:54 PM
Show me some love Houston...

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/files/2012/02/mario021612-436x213.jpg

Or money..... either is fine with me.


Just saw that pic & had to post it.

TheMatrix31
02-20-2012, 03:53 AM
As long as we can resign all our guys, that's really all I'm concerned about.

It's tough to let a talent like Mario go, but it's also tough to let a talent like Foster and Myers go.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 07:11 AM
If I am correct & the high end of the market is $14M/yr ($14 x 3 = $42M over 3 years) there is no reason we can not structure the deal so his cap hit for 2012 is closer to $10M

You keep saying he'll cost too much, or that we won't be able to afford him. Everything I've shown, & the others who've suggested contracts to keep Mario has shown a reasonable contract offer that will reduce his 2012 cap number (~$10M) compared to his 2011 cap hit (~$18M) leaving money to sign Foster & Myers ($5M to Foster, $3M to Myers) with the savings alone.

This doesn't take into account the other 15 FA that will be coming off our books, saving us money. This doesn't take into account we have several contracts that can be re-structured (to put more money in the players hands sooner & lower our cap). This doesn't take into account the $1M we can roll-over from 2011, or the $3M we'll be allowed to borrow from 2013.

So, when you say we won't be able to afford to keep Mario, could you please be a little more specific as to why not?

Ive already stated NUMEROUS times in other threads why we can't and shouldn't pay him. It has NOTHING to do with this season AND everything to do with the future. You can get him on the books now but not many contracts expire and every major contract we have ESCALATES each season so when guys like Cushing, Schaub, Brown and Barwin hit FA how will you sign them? Its about keeping a balanced check book and thinking down the road. You will need to sign him HUGE this year and lower his cap hit each season, not increase it to even have a chance at keeping him.

You are thinking too short sighted. You need to think long term and quit thinking just 2012.

Not to mention he isn't worth that money but thats another subject

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 08:44 AM
Ive already stated NUMEROUS times in other threads why we can't and shouldn't pay him. It has NOTHING to do with this season AND everything to do with the future. You can get him on the books now but not many contracts expire and every major contract we have ESCALATES each season so when guys like Cushing, Schaub, Brown and Barwin hit FA how will you sign them? Its about keeping a balanced check book and thinking down the road. You will need to sign him HUGE this year and lower his cap hit each season, not increase it to even have a chance at keeping him.

You are thinking too short sighted. You need to think long term and quit thinking just 2012.

Not to mention he isn't worth that money but thats another subject

I'm not being short-sighted at all. I understand the cap will go up in 2013. I don't believe signing MW is going to prevent us from signing Schaub, Cushing, or Brown in the future.

GP
02-20-2012, 08:56 AM
What's clouding the water, for me, is the overall success of Wade Phillips' newly installed 34 Defense.

Every week, a new guy was taking over the game. Barwin, Reed, Watt, Smith...each game, one of those guys was blasting the other team's QB or always meeting the RB at the LOS, etc.

Will that be a factor for McNair and Smith? As good as Ben Tate has been, I don't think he'd do as well without Foster's style of running. Defenses get accustomed to having to stop and wait for the cutbacks by Foster...so Tate blows right by them in a straight line a lot of times.

Without Mario, the defense was Top 1 or Top 2 depending on the week you go by. What would the offense look like without Foster for 75% of a season? Especially with Yates at QB or perhaps a potentially "lesser" Matt Schaub at QB?

Just thinking out loud, about the factors that might be involved with rationing out the payroll and cap space.

Mr teX
02-20-2012, 09:41 AM
What's clouding the water, for me, is the overall success of Wade Phillips' newly installed 34 Defense.

Every week, a new guy was taking over the game. Barwin, Reed, Watt, Smith...each game, one of those guys was blasting the other team's QB or always meeting the RB at the LOS, etc.

Will that be a factor for McNair and Smith? As good as Ben Tate has been, I don't think he'd do as well without Foster's style of running. Defenses get accustomed to having to stop and wait for the cutbacks by Foster...so Tate blows right by them in a straight line a lot of times.

Without Mario, the defense was Top 1 or Top 2 depending on the week you go by. What would the offense look like without Foster for 75% of a season? Especially with Yates at QB or perhaps a potentially "lesser" Matt Schaub at QB?

Just thinking out loud, about the factors that might be involved with rationing out the payroll and cap space.

The thing about the bolded though is that all those other guys got a chance to grow in the system as the season progressed; Behind the acquistion of Wade Phillips, i attribute that growth more than anything else as to the reason for us having so much success in turning around our defense.

The other thing is that Mario hadn't even really hit his stride in the system yet and was still well on his way to a career year by all indications. Looking at it from a different perspective, Reed & Barwin combined for 17.5 sacks last year. You say, ok that's pretty good. But when you factor in that Mario was on pace to get 16 all by himself before he went down, before he got comfy & without really experiencing the growth in the system that the other players did, it doesn't really look all that impressive.

The final thing is people need to get the feelings out of it & start looking at the resigning of Mario like its an acquistion of any other high profile FA that has never played for this team before. If you look at it this way, there's no question that acquiring a talent like Mario would make us better than we already are. Most teams in our position would probably be of the mindset that acquiring a player of Mario's caliber would put their defense over the top..........but only here in Houston do fans think that we could do without such a player.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 09:44 AM
What's clouding the water, for me, is the overall success of Wade Phillips' newly installed 34 Defense.

Every week, a new guy was taking over the game. Barwin, Reed, Watt, Smith...each game, one of those guys was blasting the other team's QB or always meeting the RB at the LOS, etc.

Will that be a factor for McNair and Smith? As good as Ben Tate has been, I don't think he'd do as well without Foster's style of running. Defenses get accustomed to having to stop and wait for the cutbacks by Foster...so Tate blows right by them in a straight line a lot of times.

Without Mario, the defense was Top 1 or Top 2 depending on the week you go by. What would the offense look like without Foster for 75% of a season? Especially with Yates at QB or perhaps a potentially "lesser" Matt Schaub at QB?

Just thinking out loud, about the factors that might be involved with rationing out the payroll and cap space.

Our offense really nose dived after we lost Schaub. Even without Andre, we were still in the top 10. Over 400 yards against Oakland & Tennessee, well over 300 for most of the other games.

But we're still a better offensive football team with Andre than not.

Same on defense.

Go look at the GB Packers schedule leading up to their Super Bowl run. They were the #2 defense in the league. Look at their defense in 2011... dead last. As misleading as that stat may be, it's the same stat that had them rated at #2.

I know you can only play who is in front of you, but that Packer team played a soft offensive schedule, just like we did. Next year, we won't be so lucky. The Packers also got everybody's best game in 2011 since they were Super Bowl Champs. We may not get that, but teams are going to approach us differently than in the past, you can count on that.

Bringing in a healthy Mario Williams & a healthy Demeco Ryans will help us keep a dominating defense, will provide the best environment for JjWatt, Connor Barwin, & Brooks Reed to develop, allow Antonio Smith to go on a sack/game run.... maybe finish the season with double digits for the first time in his career.

Wade Phillips ain't no dummy & he knows he wants Mario.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 09:50 AM
The other thing is that Mario hadn't even really hit his stride in the system yet and was still well on his way to a career year by all indications. Looking at it from a different perspective, Reed & Barwin combined for 17.5 sacks last year. You say, ok that's pretty good. But when you factor in that Mario was on pace to get 16 all by himself before he went down, before he got comfy & without really experiencing the growth in the system that the other players did, it doesn't really look all that impressive.



Antonio Smith was also on pace to make 16 sacks. Connor Barwin 12 sacks. Those three players alone would have counted for 45 sacks. Throw in JjWatt's contributions & Brooks Reed, we'd have over 50. We were also racking up turnovers like nobody's business. No doubt in my mind we would have got to the Super Bowl on the strength of our defense alone.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 10:34 AM
Antonio Smith was also on pace to make 16 sacks. Connor Barwin 12 sacks. Those three players alone would have counted for 45 sacks. Throw in JjWatt's contributions & Brooks Reed, we'd have over 50. We were also racking up turnovers like nobody's business. No doubt in my mind we would have got to the Super Bowl on the strength of our defense alone.

Woulda coulda shoulda, we have no idea what would have happened if Mario remained.....I think our run defense would have been terrible if he stayed playing....can you dispute that? nope because he didnt play its all opinions

We do know that we were just fine without him......:kitten:

Mr teX
02-20-2012, 10:36 AM
Woulda coulda shoulda, we have no idea what would have happened if Mario remained.....I think our run defense would have been terrible if he stayed playing....can you dispute that? nope because he didnt play its all opinions

We do know that we were just fine without him......:kitten:

Okay i can play that game too..we know we did just fine without him THIS year.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 10:37 AM
Okay i can play that game too..we know we did just fine without him THIS year.

but then youd be lieing to yourslef by ASSUMING their level of play will drop off....

amazing80
02-20-2012, 10:42 AM
Hopefully he goes and we can spend money on players that are high motor guys on every play that are worth the money.

Yup, agreed 10000000% Rep your way

SteveSlaton20
02-20-2012, 11:11 AM
I would to see Mario stay and settle for a smaller contract, but we all know that isn't going to happen. I just hope he goes to an NFC team and we don't have to play against him in 3-4 years if we're lucky.

Mr teX
02-20-2012, 11:13 AM
but then youd be lieing to yourslef by ASSUMING their level of play will drop off....

C'mon, lets not act like were the Ravens or the steelers now; a team with an established track record of fielding a top 10 defense for umpteen years. In 2011, our pretty good offense was derailed with injuries. That could easily happen with us on defense next year....& we do still have Kareem Jackson starting in our secondary.

The real question is why would you ASSUME that their level of play couldn't drop off? I'm sure the packers & the steelers thought the same way you're thinking too in 2011.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 11:19 AM
C'mon, lets not act like were the Ravens or the steelers now; a team with an established track record of fielding a top 10 defense for umpteen years. In 2011, our pretty good offense was derailed with injuries. That could easily happen with us on defense next year....& we do still have Kareem Jackson starting in our secondary.

The real question is why would you ASSUME that their level of play couldn't drop off? I'm sure the packers & the steelers thought the same way you're thinking too in 2011.

The steelers? They fielded a top defense last season


The Packers lost pieces in the secondary due to injury and their front line was terrible and got worse when Jenkins left.....their defense fiested on turnovers in 2010 and they scored often on picks, in 2011 that changed and they forced less turnovers resulting in more offensive tds for opposing teams...


we are a top run defense and without Mario, no reason that will change unless you add one pass rush move Mario to the mix and he continues to bull rush right past runners.....

our pass defense got better because we upgraded our secondary, nothing will change back there unless we improve it with a rookie or a guy like Harris gets better, no reason they will regress

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 11:19 AM
Hopefully he goes and we can spend money on players that are high motor guys on every play that are worth the money.

Yup, agreed 10000000% Rep your way

Antwuan Peek & Jason Babin were high effort, high motor guys.... didn't do crap for our pass rush.

Dunta Robinson was a high effort, high motor guy.... didn't do much for our pass protection.

effort & motor are great, but if you're not getting the job done, you aren't getting the job done.

Rey
02-20-2012, 11:26 AM
Antwuan Peek & Jason Babin were high effort, high motor guys.... didn't do crap for our pass rush.

Dunta Robinson was a high effort, high motor guy.... didn't do much for our pass protection.

effort & motor are great, but if you're not getting the job done, you aren't getting the job done.

I like high energy and high motor guys as much as the next fan, but effective is effective. Some guys just have different playing styles.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 11:28 AM
Antwuan Peek & Jason Babin were high effort, high motor guys.... didn't do crap for our pass rush.

Dunta Robinson was a high effort, high motor guy.... didn't do much for our pass protection.

effort & motor are great, but if you're not getting the job done, you aren't getting the job done.

Peek and Babin were NOT high motor in Houston, and Robinson WAS great until he got hurt, your point is is only valid if they are coupled with absolutely no talent, which is not anyone on our team

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 11:32 AM
our pass defense got better because we upgraded our secondary, nothing will change back there unless we improve it with a rookie or a guy like Harris gets better, no reason they will regress

Again, not taking away from Wade or Jjo, most definitely not taking anything away from Jj Watt & Connor Barwin. But we played QBs that couldn't get out of their own way & teams that could not score. Whether they were playing us or an average defense.

& I don't care if Mario isn't a Texans next year. If he wants to leave for greener pastures, more power to him. But if that happens, pass rush becomes our #1 need in the offseason. More than WR, more than "depth"

But to me, a bird in the hand & all that jazz. Instead of drafting another Amobi Okoye, or signing an Anthony Weaver, or Antonio Smith (my version, not yours), I'd much rather have Mario Williams.

& it's cool to disagree... I have no worries. Wade Phillips understands this team is better with Mario Williams, Wade wants Williams back.

So we'll sign Mario, he'll be a Texan, unless he's looking for the biggest paycheck he can get & I've already said I'm fine with that.

Mr teX
02-20-2012, 11:51 AM
The steelers? They fielded a top defense last season

that got raped in the playoffs by Tim freaking Tebow.


The Packers lost pieces in the secondary due to injury and their front line was terrible and got worse when Jenkins left.....their defense fiested on turnovers in 2010 and they scored often on picks, in 2011 that changed and they forced less turnovers resulting in more offensive tds for opposing teams...


we are a top run defense and without Mario, no reason that will change unless you add one pass rush move Mario to the mix and he continues to bull rush right past runners.....

Yeah, b/c brooks reed & conner barwin never did that...:rolleyes:

our pass defense got better because we upgraded our secondary, nothing will change back there unless we improve it with a rookie or a guy like Harris gets better, no reason they will regress.

unless JJ gets hurt...Lol at harris even being counted as a factor. we're talking about a guy who couldn't even beat out sherrick mcnanis for the #4 spot.



Way to sidestep my overall point about injuries though; lol right after you listed injuries as being among GB's problems on defense in 2011.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 12:07 PM
Way to sidestep my overall point about injuries though; lol right after you listed injuries as being among GB's problems on defense in 2011.


Injuries are apart of the game but fielding a guy like Mario who is constantly out of position vs the run are 2 different things....we cant predict injuries, but we can predict how people will perform based on their past.....nothing in marios tenure here suggests he is this dominant force that the rest of the talking heads think he is

Mr teX
02-20-2012, 12:12 PM
Injuries are apart of the game but fielding a guy like Mario who is constantly out of position vs the run are 2 different things....we cant predict injuries, but we can predict how people will perform based on their past.....nothing in marios tenure here suggests he is this dominant force that the rest of the talking heads think he is

Lol at the bolded..:ok:

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 12:21 PM
Lol at the bolded..:ok:

Yeah, I don't know where he comes up with that. I choose to ignore it as it isn't worth the time to argue it.

Speaking of not worth the time of day, Mclain wrote this in one of his articles.


McNutts (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/02/mcclain-without-discount-mario-is-unaffordable/)
Considering the obscene amounts some teams — mostly bad ones — have under the cap, several could guarantee Williams $50 million as a signing bonus. The Texans aren’t in position to offer that.

Which is nuts. If we're talking about signing Mario to a ~$10M 2012 cap number, then that is totally possible. Give him that $50M bonus (which I am against, just saying it is possible) that's only $8.3M prorated over 6 years. Pay him a $1.5M or $2M salary for 2012 & he's yours for ~$10M 2012 cap..... heck, that would basically be his number for the first 3 years of the contract.

Not likely, that's what Mclain should have said. $42M (3 years) guaranteed would be my absolute top dollar. Now, $50M over 4 years, I could go with that. $2M salary over the first 4 years, then $6M for the final 2 years... that's Charles Johnson money, $70M for 6 years, with a $14.3 cap number over the final 2 years.

But Mario wouldn't go for that. Charles Johnson got $72M

Bulls on Parade
02-20-2012, 12:33 PM
Antwuan Peek & Jason Babin were high effort, high motor guys.... didn't do crap for our pass rush.

Dunta Robinson was a high effort, high motor guy.... didn't do much for our pass protection.

effort & motor are great, but if you're not getting the job done, you aren't getting the job done.
I'm literally drueling in excitement and licking my chops. Just thinking about how great high motor players like Peek and Babin would have been playing in Wade Phillips' system. Babin had 18 sacks in 2011 and 12.5 sacks in 2010. This guy has All Pro ability but never flourished until he was coached up the right way.

Dutchrudder
02-20-2012, 01:02 PM
Yeah, I don't know where he comes up with that. I choose to ignore it as it isn't worth the time to argue it.

Speaking of not worth the time of day, Mclain wrote this in one of his articles.


McNutts (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/02/mcclain-without-discount-mario-is-unaffordable/)


Which is nuts. If we're talking about signing Mario to a ~$10M 2012 cap number, then that is totally possible. Give him that $50M bonus (which I am against, just saying it is possible) that's only $8.3M prorated over 6 years. Pay him a $1.5M or $2M salary for 2012 & he's yours for ~$10M 2012 cap..... heck, that would basically be his number for the first 3 years of the contract.

Not likely, that's what Mclain should have said. $42M (3 years) guaranteed would be my absolute top dollar. Now, $50M over 4 years, I could go with that. $2M salary over the first 4 years, then $6M for the final 2 years... that's Charles Johnson money, $70M for 6 years, with a $14.3 cap number over the final 2 years.

But Mario wouldn't go for that. Charles Johnson got $72M

The dumb thing about McClain's proposal is that the teams with tons of capspace don't need to prorate a signing bonus over 6 years. They can just give Mario a 30+ million dollar roster bonus in 2012 to get that cap money off the books and then just pay him salary the rest of the way. 7 mill a year salary for 6 years on top of that would be 72 million total and he's a small hit on the cap for 5 of those years. That would make the most sense to me, unless I have a cheap owner that wants to use his deal to push the team's cap number up each year to meet the minimum in 2013 and beyond.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 01:10 PM
This guy has All Pro ability but never flourished until he was coached up the right way.

If by "coached up" you mean told he's on his last stop..... yeah.

HOU-TEX
02-20-2012, 01:59 PM
Nevermind! Whiners

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 02:04 PM
Heard he had a big "movement" this morning.

A Mario Movement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)

If I were one to Neg-rep someone, that's the kind of thing that would set me off.....

HOU-TEX
02-20-2012, 02:10 PM
If I were one to Neg-rep someone, that's the kind of thing that would set me off.....

LOL. Why? Just trying to have a little fun

TejasTom
02-20-2012, 02:12 PM
If I were one to Neg-rep someone, that's the kind of thing that would set me off.....

It would be deserved.

LOL. Why? Just trying to have a little fun

Not funny.

HOU-TEX
02-20-2012, 02:36 PM
Man, talkin about a bunch of whiners. Did I ever Neg rep someone for Rick Rollin me? Hell no, it's all in fun.

Dutchrudder, I never neg rep, but I might make an exception just for you. :cry:

Dutchrudder
02-20-2012, 02:51 PM
Man, talkin about a bunch of whiners. Did I ever Neg rep someone for Rick Rollin me? Hell no, it's all in fun.

Dutchrudder, I never neg rep, but I might make an exception just for you. :cry:

It's just fictional green bars bro, walk it off :shades:

HOU-TEX
02-20-2012, 03:09 PM
It's just fictional green bars bro, walk it off :shades:

I would've returned the favor if I actually gave a damn

leebigeztx
02-20-2012, 03:24 PM
Been saying the same thing for a minute,just as thunder has been saying also. 42m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs is 14m per yr. That can be 6yrs 90m with 42m g in 1st 3yrs.

7m sal in each of the 1st 3yrs, 7m roster bonus in the 1st 3yrs. That contract is paid for now. That leaves 48m unguaranteed over the next 3 yrs. Most teams put that in salary and performance bonus to validtae the cntract. So here it is for the millionth time.

4th yr-12m sal 2m roster ,500k for probowl,500k for leading sacks,500k for 80% snaps,500k for 1st team all pro

That can be done for the the next 2 yrs. If the need salary relief and he's playing well after yr 3, they can move his salary to signing bonus and stretch it out. If he sux or is constantly hurt after 1st 3 yrs, then they could cut him and owe $0. Again, I want to repeat to those that don't know,if mario doesn't play well,injured,old,sorry ass after yr 3,the texans could cut him and owe $0 because of his guaranteed 1st 3 yrs. Just like adrian petereson deal with vikings. If this injury is serious and he's not the same, they can cut him after yr 3 and owe $0. That's the huge benefit of guaranteed 1st 3 yrs vs signing bonus.

dalemurphy
02-20-2012, 04:54 PM
Been saying the same thing for a minute,just as thunder has been saying also. 42m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs is 14m per yr. That can be 6yrs 90m with 42m g in 1st 3yrs.

7m sal in each of the 1st 3yrs, 7m roster bonus in the 1st 3yrs. That contract is paid for now. That leaves 48m unguaranteed over the next 3 yrs. Most teams put that in salary and performance bonus to validtae the cntract. So here it is for the millionth time.

4th yr-12m sal 2m roster ,500k for probowl,500k for leading sacks,500k for 80% snaps,500k for 1st team all pro

That can be done for the the next 2 yrs. If the need salary relief and he's playing well after yr 3, they can move his salary to signing bonus and stretch it out. If he sux or is constantly hurt after 1st 3 yrs, then they could cut him and owe $0. Again, I want to repeat to those that don't know,if mario doesn't play well,injured,old,sorry ass after yr 3,the texans could cut him and owe $0 because of his guaranteed 1st 3 yrs. Just like adrian petereson deal with vikings. If this injury is serious and he's not the same, they can cut him after yr 3 and owe $0. That's the huge benefit of guaranteed 1st 3 yrs vs signing bonus.

The salary cap hit is prohibitive in your scenario... When the cap is at its smallest, this year, he would count $14 million against it. That's about 11-12% of the entire cap. Way too much!

leebigeztx
02-20-2012, 05:14 PM
The salary cap hit is prohibitive in your scenario... When the cap is at its smallest, this year, he would count $14 million against it. That's about 11-12% of the entire cap. Way too much!

I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio. Why are u so dumfounded about how much a high end pass rusher cost? Not to mention that you clearly don't understand by mario doing a deal, they get cap room. He had a cap charge of about 17m and some change. If they get that deal down to 14m,they gain 4m to go with the 8m they have .Ok, let me ask this simple question, barwin had a good year. Let's say he puts up 17 sacks next yr and 16 sacks the next yr, how much do u think he's going to cost? He's going cost more than the money we're talking about with mario right. So, vs paying people,you think wade can just scheme rush? Look at the guy opposite ware, spencer. He had a breakout of 8 sacks and now he's back to average. As a result, cowboys can't get consistent pressure on the qb. Or maybe your disdain and hatred for mario just clouds your thinking.

dalemurphy
02-20-2012, 05:54 PM
I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio. Why are u so dumfounded about how much a high end pass rusher cost? Not to mention that you clearly don't understand by mario doing a deal, they get cap room. He had a cap charge of about 17m and some change. If they get that deal down to 14m,they gain 4m to go with the 8m they have .Ok, let me ask this simple question, barwin had a good year. Let's say he puts up 17 sacks next yr and 16 sacks the next yr, how much do u think he's going to cost? He's going cost more than the money we're talking about with mario right. So, vs paying people,you think wade can just scheme rush? Look at the guy opposite ware, spencer. He had a breakout of 8 sacks and now he's back to average. As a result, cowboys can't get consistent pressure on the qb. Or maybe your disdain and hatred for mario just clouds your thinking.

Looking at your Cowboys example: if D. Ware spent the final season of his contract on IR, and in that season the Cowboys defense was one of the two best in the NFL... and, if Spencer had 12 sacks playing Mario's position and three other players had at least 6 (and if most of that defense was still working off their rookie contracts), I would be focused on keep that group intact rather than paying Ware an obscene amount of money.

The Texans were a great defense without Mario. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that. Therefore, since Mario is not essential to the success of the defense (as those 14 games proved last season), I would concentrate on the group that did dominate- on their retention and on supplementing the depth and talent throughout the team... rather than giving 1/9 of the entire cap to a guy that has finished the past two seasons on I.R.

Furthermore, I would use part of the money not spent on Mario to re-sign many of those guys scheduled to become free agents in 2013, of which Barwin is one. I could sign Barwin to a long term and relatively low risk deal right now and not have to face the scenario you described until 2017 or 2018. I'd do the same with Duane Brown, Glover Quin, Brice McCain. Since they are all under small, rookie contracts, offering them a significant and immediate pay raise in the 2012 season that is tied to a long term deal allows the team to save money down the road on these guys.

For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.

ThaShark316
02-20-2012, 06:09 PM
I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio. Why are u so dumfounded about how much a high end pass rusher cost? Not to mention that you clearly don't understand by mario doing a deal, they get cap room. He had a cap charge of about 17m and some change. If they get that deal down to 14m,they gain 4m to go with the 8m they have .Ok, let me ask this simple question, barwin had a good year. Let's say he puts up 17 sacks next yr and 16 sacks the next yr, how much do u think he's going to cost? He's going cost more than the money we're talking about with mario right. So, vs paying people,you think wade can just scheme rush? Look at the guy opposite ware, spencer. He had a breakout of 8 sacks and now he's back to average. As a result, cowboys can't get consistent pressure on the qb. Or maybe your disdain and hatred for mario just clouds your thinking.

:clap::clap:

dalemurphy
02-20-2012, 06:23 PM
I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio..


There's nothing confusing about it.

1. I believe more in a team concept and less in star players. That's it. I would be much less apt to give huge contracts to "stars" than you.

2. The second point is that I think many have overrated Mario Williams effect in games and his reliability.


I'm fine with people disagreeing with either point, or both. I'm just not sure why it offends people or confuses them.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 06:25 PM
Looking at your Cowboys example: if D. Ware spent the final season of his contract on IR, and in that season the Cowboys defense was one of the two best in the NFL... and, if Spencer had 12 sacks playing Mario's position and three other players had at least 6 (and if most of that defense was still working off their rookie contracts), I would be focused on keep that group intact rather than paying Ware an obscene amount of money.

The Texans were a great defense without Mario. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that. Therefore, since Mario is not essential to the success of the defense (as those 14 games proved last season), I would concentrate on the group that did dominate- on their retention and on supplementing the depth and talent throughout the team... rather than giving 1/9 of the entire cap to a guy that has finished the past two seasons on I.R.

Furthermore, I would use part of the money not spent on Mario to re-sign many of those guys scheduled to become free agents in 2013, of which Barwin is one. I could sign Barwin to a long term and relatively low risk deal right now and not have to face the scenario you described until 2017 or 2018. I'd do the same with Duane Brown, Glover Quin, Brice McCain. Since they are all under small, rookie contracts, offering them a significant and immediate pay raise in the 2012 season that is tied to a long term deal allows the team to save money down the road on these guys.

For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.

Great post :clap:

Texecutioner
02-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Looking at your Cowboys example: if D. Ware spent the final season of his contract on IR, and in that season the Cowboys defense was one of the two best in the NFL... and, if Spencer had 12 sacks playing Mario's position and three other players had at least 6 (and if most of that defense was still working off their rookie contracts), I would be focused on keep that group intact rather than paying Ware an obscene amount of money.

The Texans were a great defense without Mario. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that. Therefore, since Mario is not essential to the success of the defense (as those 14 games proved last season), I would concentrate on the group that did dominate- on their retention and on supplementing the depth and talent throughout the team... rather than giving 1/9 of the entire cap to a guy that has finished the past two seasons on I.R.

Furthermore, I would use part of the money not spent on Mario to re-sign many of those guys scheduled to become free agents in 2013, of which Barwin is one. I could sign Barwin to a long term and relatively low risk deal right now and not have to face the scenario you described until 2017 or 2018. I'd do the same with Duane Brown, Glover Quin, Brice McCain. Since they are all under small, rookie contracts, offering them a significant and immediate pay raise in the 2012 season that is tied to a long term deal allows the team to save money down the road on these guys.

For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.

Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)

dalemurphy
02-20-2012, 06:36 PM
Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.



* Not to mention another threat at wide receiver

Dutchrudder
02-20-2012, 06:42 PM
Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)

C'mon guys (you and Dale), Barwin has played 1 year at a high level. No need to extend him now, make him earn it with another year of production just like Foster did. Plus, extending him now doesn't do anything for the team because rookie deals can't be changed by more than 30%. So his 600k or whatever he is getting can't go up much at all, and his cap hits for signing bonus and new money will all come in 2013 and beyond.

dalemurphy
02-20-2012, 06:50 PM
C'mon guys (you and Dale), Barwin has played 1 year at a high level. No need to extend him now, make him earn it with another year of production just like Foster did. Plus, extending him now doesn't do anything for the team because rookie deals can't be changed by more than 30%. So his 600k or whatever he is getting can't go up much at all, and his cap hits for signing bonus and new money will all come in 2013 and beyond.

Really? the signing bonus on a new deal wouldn't be evenly distributed on the cap for the length of the deal? I don't think that's right. How did Chris Johnson get that monster deal when he was still in the midst of his rookie contract? I think the Texans could do the following:

$8 million signing bonus
2012= $800,000 salary for the first year... then escalating from then on. The cap hit of that $8 million would be evenly divided over the course of the contract, including 2012... I could be wrong but I have never heard otherwise and would appreciate being educated if I am incorrect.

By the way, I believe the Texans' organization should know whether Barwin is worth the money or not after three years in the organization. I believe a key to a great organization is its ability to accurately assess talent already on the team. The Texans have spent three years with him, watching him at practice, his work ethic, his gameday performances, etc... I'd say they had better know his value by now. After all, teams willingly pay millions of dollars to players they have never coached: 1st round rookies.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 06:57 PM
Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)



* Not to mention another threat at wide receiver

You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 07:07 PM
You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.

Well I think most would agree that is Mario walks that we need to fill his role on the team with pass rush specialist....say 2nd or 3rd round pick.....

Barwins injury was a fluke, a broken ankle, Marios injuries are yearly and even though he played through them he was not effective

Im not a Mario hater like some of you prolly think I am, but I am a Texans fan, this means I try to look at things rationally and for our future. I think as a team we're better off without Mario and his massive contract, sorry JMO

cbs1507
02-20-2012, 07:13 PM
You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.

Great point. I've already hinted to how could we know if Barwin (or Reed) are not 1 year wonders. Williams had 5 sacks in 4 and 1/4 games. Barwin had 2 sacks through week 8. Reed had ALL of his 6 sacks from week 7 to week 12. He had ZERO in every other week.

BTW Barwin went on IR week 1 of 2010 so he missed 15 games in 3 seasons. Williams missed 14 games in 6 seasons (zero in his first 4).

dalemurphy
02-20-2012, 07:35 PM
You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.


TK,
Who is suggesting having Nading and Braman as primary depth? I have been advocating grabbing a free agent 3-4 OLB this entire time. Having one player count over 10% against the cap lessens team depth, it doesn't improve it. For 2012, you're right, the OLB position would be deeper with Mario than it would without him (or a replacement)... but, what about the rest of the team. If the Texans are committed to winning, all those resources would be spread around to the entire team, creating better depth.

Regarding Barwin's IR stint in 2010 and presumed unreliability I would say this: good thing he counts $1 million against the cap instead of $18 million. That's the problem.. to rely on one player so heavily in a sport where injuries are so prevalent makes little sense. The utter destruction of the Colts this year is a perfect example of that... and they were depending on a player at a non-violent position that had never missed a game due to injury in his entire career.

ckhouston
02-20-2012, 07:43 PM
TK,Who is suggesting having Nading and Braman as primary depth?

Ill take Braman as primary depth. He is in a mold similar to Cushing. Kids a great story and played his ass off last year. Give him a shot.

dalemurphy
02-20-2012, 08:12 PM
Ill take Braman as primary depth. He is in a mold similar to Cushing. Kids a great story and played his ass off last year. Give him a shot.

I love the kid! However, I think it would be irresponsible to go into the season depending on him at that level. The team is so young and Barwin, with only one real season, would be the most veteran OLB getting minutes. That's too risky. If the Texans let Mario walk, they need to bring in a veteran presence, IMO. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be hopeful that Braman could earn significant minutes on the field with his training camp/preseason performance.

One of the biggest mistakes this team made on defense was it too often entered and exited the off-season with a plan too dependent on unproven players... This was particularly true in the defensive backfield, in 2008-2010. I would've hoped they have learned from those mistakes.

Texan_Bill
02-20-2012, 08:28 PM
There's nothing confusing about it.

1. I believe more in a team concept and less in star players. That's it. I would be much less apt to give huge contracts to "stars" than you.

2. The second point is that I think many have overrated Mario Williams effect in games and his reliability.


I'm fine with people disagreeing with either point, or both. I'm just not sure why it offends people or confuses them.

Dale, you and I have disagreed on many topics. That said, I tend to agree with you about a "team concept" and less about the "star player"...

*DISCLAIMER*

Scheme means a lot. People run out examples of Jason Babin... Well, YES exactly. Is it him, or is it the scheme he's in? Is Jason Babin worth 13, 14, 17 million a year?? I think not.

I've seen an argument that (hypothetically) asked the question if Connor Barwin gets 12 or so sacks next year and another 14 sacks the following year, is he worth 15 +/- million????

NO!!!

How many times have we seen this formula fail?? Albert Hayensworth comes to mind. If I wasn't having a few cocktails, I might have a few more examples like Mike Mamula (or something like that).

Finally, I have never "overrated" Mario, but I AM a Mario fan and would hope he stays a "TEXAN".. The thing about it is, I'm all about being a "TEXAN" and wish it would make sense to keep him, BUT it doesn't...

He'll make a fine Carolina Panther.

chicagotexan2
02-20-2012, 10:14 PM
Damn people we're talking about a football player not a terrorist attack. Relax get over the prank. After you finish sitting down to tinckle that is. I don't dread Mario going to an AFC team, there's a good chance he'd be hurt for that game anyway. Hou-tex keep up the levity whiners gonna whine.

False Start
02-20-2012, 10:23 PM
Man, talkin about a bunch of whiners. Did I ever Neg rep someone for Rick Rollin me? Hell no, it's all in fun.

Dutchrudder, I never neg rep, but I might make an exception just for you. :cry:


I cant believe people legitimately got mad about it. :user:

Shaft75
02-20-2012, 10:23 PM
Btw - Rich Lord told me that he's heard from a couple of good sources that Babin is an in the closet poll smoker.

Texan_Bill
02-20-2012, 10:29 PM
Man, talkin about a bunch of whiners. Did I ever Neg rep someone for Rick Rollin me? Hell no, it's all in fun.

Dutchrudder, I never neg rep, but I might make an exception just for you. :cry:

Neg. Rep. Com'in both yall's way!!! ;)

chicagotexan2
02-20-2012, 10:29 PM
Btw - Rich Lord told me that he's heard from a couple of good sources that Babin is an in the closet poll smoker.

When he's not getting rear ended outside gay bars by local radio talk show hosts who shall remain anonymous but who's name rhymes with bichael merry.

Texan_Bill
02-20-2012, 10:31 PM
Btw - Rich Lord told me that he's heard from a couple of good sources that Babin is an in the closet poll smoker.

That ain't right.......... I've hunted on his ranch in Center, Texas.. :)

False Start
02-20-2012, 10:32 PM
Btw - Rich Lord told me that he's heard from a couple of good sources that Babin is an in the closet poll smoker.

Heard that too. To add to it, Josh Innes is Babin's "life partner."

Dutchrudder
02-20-2012, 10:35 PM
You guys do realize VY and Babin were on the Eagles together last year, right? I guess we now know what Vince meant by "Dream Team"!

:lol:

Texan_Bill
02-20-2012, 11:02 PM
You guys do realize VY and Babin were on the Eagles together last year, right? I guess we now know what Vince meant by "Dream Team"!

:lol:

You moutherEffers just ain't right.... :kitten:

leebigeztx
02-20-2012, 11:48 PM
Dale,if barwin had 11 sacks again,what makes u think he would take 8m signing bonus when the franchise tag for a pass rusher is the 2nd or 3rd highest tag in the game. Don't be fooled by his passion as being dumb.

Here is the link to woodley and his deal

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/31123370

Again,the steeler dropped the franchis tag for 10m on woodley after 3 straight double digit sack seasons. His deal was 6 yr 61.5m with a 22m bonus and he will make 27m in the 1st 2 yrs of the deal. So what makes you think barwin will take a 8m signing bonus 2 yrs from now? Here is another deal from a olb rush end.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6832202/tamba-hali-kansas-city-chiefs-agree-5-year-60m-deal-source-says

Tamba had a breakout season of 14.5 sacks and got 35m guaranteed and 60m deal. Again, its way more than the 8m signing bonus you think barwin will sign. My whole point of this is you have to pay premium players premium money. Since the texans don't have a franchise qb,they save money on that side. They do have 1 of the best dual threat rbs, a top 5 wr,and a premium pass rusher in mario. No matter what you think about a certain % of the cap mario will cost, they will have to pay for pass rush just like all the other teams. The teams minus a pass rush or a guy teams turn protection too gets killed.

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 12:36 AM
Really? the signing bonus on a new deal wouldn't be evenly distributed on the cap for the length of the deal? I don't think that's right. How did Chris Johnson get that monster deal when he was still in the midst of his rookie contract? I think the Texans could do the following:

$8 million signing bonus
2012= $800,000 salary for the first year... then escalating from then on. The cap hit of that $8 million would be evenly divided over the course of the contract, including 2012... I could be wrong but I have never heard otherwise and would appreciate being educated if I am incorrect.

By the way, I believe the Texans' organization should know whether Barwin is worth the money or not after three years in the organization. I believe a key to a great organization is its ability to accurately assess talent already on the team. The Texans have spent three years with him, watching him at practice, his work ethic, his gameday performances, etc... I'd say they had better know his value by now. After all, teams willingly pay millions of dollars to players they have never coached: 1st round rookies.

I don't want to look it up in the CBA at the moment, but there is a rule about salaried deals and that they can't be increased by any more than 30% in a given year. CJ wanted a big raise after his 2k season, but the Titans by rule couldn't give it to him, which made him look like even more of an idiot given his demands were impossible. Also asking for an extension in the third year of a 4 year rookie deal is pretty lame. It's rare that teams will extend or re-work rookie deals before the last year. What the Titans did for CJ was guarantee all of his potential incentives for 2011, which got him to 3 million in the last year of his rookie deal. Those incentives are not considered new money, so I guess that works. Then they gave him a 4 year extension, which applies to years 5,6,7,8 of his tenure with the Titans. That was worth a 10 mill signing bonus (paid immediately), and another 46 million or so.

***

Turns out they did count the signing bonus against the 2011 cap (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Green-Titan.html) according to Andrew Brandt. That's odd, as it kind of gets around the 30% rule. Can't change salaries, but signing bonuses are OK! lol... business is business I guess. Sorry Dale, your idea could work. :)

leebigeztx
02-21-2012, 12:45 AM
I don't want to look it up in the CBA at the moment, but there is a rule about salaried deals and that they can't be increased by any more than 30% in a given year. CJ wanted a big raise after his 2k season, but the Titans by rule couldn't give it to him, which made him look like even more of an idiot given his demands were impossible. Also asking for an extension in the third year of a 4 year rookie deal is pretty lame. It's rare that teams will extend or re-work rookie deals before the last year. What the Titans did for CJ was guarantee all of his potential incentives for 2011, which got him to 3 million in the last year of his rookie deal. Those incentives are not considered new money, so I guess that works. Then they gave him a 4 year extension, which applies to years 5,6,7,8 of his tenure with the Titans. That was worth a 10 mill signing bonus (paid immediately), and another 46 million or so.

***

Turns out they did count the signing bonus against the 2011 cap (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Green-Titan.html) according to Andrew Brandt. That's odd, as it kind of gets around the 30% rule. Can't change salaries, but signing bonuses are OK! lol... business is business I guess. Sorry Dale, your idea could work. :)

Yeah,barwin having double digit sack season and signing a contract with a measley 8m signing bonus. Meawhile, woodley gets franchise tagged and 27m in 1st 2 yrs and tamba hali gets 35m guaranteed,lol. Good luck with that 8m signing bonus.

jwmann2
02-21-2012, 03:02 AM
Trade him for draft picks. Money needs to be freed up so we can seal Andre for the rest of his career.
Looking back, drafting Mario over Reggie Bush was a genius move. I think it's safe to say Reggie was a bust in the NFL.

AnthonyE
02-21-2012, 03:54 AM
Trade him for draft picks. Money needs to be freed up so we can seal Andre for the rest of his career.
Looking back, drafting Mario over Reggie Bush was a genius move. I think it's safe to say Reggie was a bust in the NFL.

Mario isn't under contract, so he can't be traded sadly. I wouldn't mind a sign+trade deal though.

dalemurphy
02-21-2012, 05:55 AM
Yeah,barwin having double digit sack season and signing a contract with a measley 8m signing bonus. Meawhile, woodley gets franchise tagged and 27m in 1st 2 yrs and tamba hali gets 35m guaranteed,lol. Good luck with that 8m signing bonus.

You're missing the point. Barwin is still under his rookie contract. He's scheduled to make only $600,000 for 2012. His incentive to take a less than market deal is the enormous benefit of getting a new contract a year early. In 2012, instead of making less than one million dollars, he would get a check of $8 million, which is twice what he's made his entire career. In return, he would accept he would accept a more moderate deal for the future years, because the Texans just paid him a huge chunk of money before he was due it.

Don't get stuck on "$8 million"... It is a hypothetical number.

dalemurphy
02-21-2012, 05:57 AM
***

Turns out they did count the signing bonus against the 2011 cap (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Green-Titan.html) according to Andrew Brandt. That's odd, as it kind of gets around the 30% rule. Can't change salaries, but signing bonuses are OK! lol... business is business I guess. Sorry Dale, your idea could work. :)


Thanks for doing the leg work.

thunderkyss
02-21-2012, 11:34 AM
I cant believe people legitimately got mad about it. :user:

I was just playing..... didn't think someone would actually neg-rep him. I actually pos-repped him because I thought it was funny, or at least I tried to, can't remember.



& he got me.

IBleedTexans
02-21-2012, 03:36 PM
This was on rotoworld
http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/228131/texans-aim-to-knock-mario-williams-socks-off

thunderkyss
02-21-2012, 04:19 PM
This was on rotoworld
http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/228131/texans-aim-to-knock-mario-williams-socks-off

Due to the emergence of Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed, there's a perception that the Texans' offer will be cursory at best. The Chronicle's John McClain insists the front office realizes they will have to "knock his socks off" to get his attention before March 13. Regardless of the offer, the cap-strapped Texans will get outbid if Williams opts to test the market. The pass rusher has stated his desire to return to Houston, but NFL players rarely pass up the highest offer.

They rarely turn down the highest offer to stay in (come to) Houston.

If they don't sign him by March 13, he's gone.

& I'm fine with that. I just hope their offer is more than just "cursory"

leebigeztx
02-21-2012, 04:23 PM
You're missing the point. Barwin is still under his rookie contract. He's scheduled to make only $600,000 for 2012. His incentive to take a less than market deal is the enormous benefit of getting a new contract a year early. In 2012, instead of making less than one million dollars, he would get a check of $8 million, which is twice what he's made his entire career. In return, he would accept he would accept a more moderate deal for the future years, because the Texans just paid him a huge chunk of money before he was due it.

Don't get stuck on "$8 million"... It is a hypothetical number.

I'm not stuck on a hypothetical number. Woodley was a 2nd rd pick and hali was in the 20s and those guys played it out. If barwin has 10 sacks or more, he will play his contract out or become restricted. That will force the texans to either drop the franchise tag on him which is over 10m in 1 yr. If he bets on himself like a lot of guys do, a 2nd franchise tender is 120% of the previous year. Bottomline is if barwin has proved to be a double digit sack guy, his money is between 25-35m guarantee on a 6 yr 60m deal like hali,woodley,harrison, and all the other player who play that position. If his agent tells him to take 8m signing bonus now, he will get abused and never get another client. Any way u squirm around it, you're going to pay at least 10m per season for rush lbs in a 3-4.

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 04:56 PM
Yeah,barwin having double digit sack season and signing a contract with a measley 8m signing bonus. Meawhile, woodley gets franchise tagged and 27m in 1st 2 yrs and tamba hali gets 35m guaranteed,lol. Good luck with that 8m signing bonus.

I'm not the one proposing it, just checking the validity of paying him during a rookie deal.

DocBar
02-21-2012, 05:13 PM
Maybe the Texans will be able to make a good run at Mike Wallace instead. You gotta think he'd love to come here for another shot at the Super Bowl and he'd be an excellent #2.

DX-TEX
02-21-2012, 05:33 PM
Maybe the Texans will be able to make a good run at Mike Wallace instead. You gotta think he'd love to come here for another shot at the Super Bowl and he'd be an excellent #2.

Funny you mentioned this. A poster at another forum I regular just posted this:

There's no way that the Steelers tag Wallace. He isn't worth $9M/yr. He's a quality person and a great player, but he's still limited in his game. There's a reason he lasted until the fourth round. There are certain teams that might sign him, but he'd basically end up worthless to them. The Pats would be one of those, Brady doesn't have the arm to get it to him and Wallace isn't out-jumping the defense like Moss. He'd be best on a run heavy team. In fact, I'm hoping that Wallace takes a little less than what he's worth and sticks around and then Haley employs a heavy dose of pap.

I bolded the parts that struck me for obvious reasons. Guy is a big time Steelers fan.

leebigeztx
02-21-2012, 05:46 PM
I'm not the one proposing it, just checking the validity of paying him during a rookie deal.

I think guys are learning from those philly eagle guys. Osi also said he made a mistake signing such a long deal because the landscape changes so much. I know what murphy is saying by putting real money in front and hope to get him cheap,but more and more these guys are riding out their deals and signing monster deals. That's what hali and woodley did. Injury is always a concern,true enough, but barwins agent know the worth of a rush olb at his age and future production. Look at a team like new england who has been looking since willie and vrabel left. These guys get on the open market and a team like the patriots scoop them up. In fact, look at indy who is building a 3-4 and they will have big time cap room once they let some of their older guys go.

DocBar
02-21-2012, 05:50 PM
Funny you mentioned this. A poster at another forum I regular just posted this:



I bolded the parts that struck me for obvious reasons. Guy is a big time Steelers fan.Maybe being around the likes of AJ and Schaub could make a difference with him. I know very little about him other than damned good stats. He can really stretch the field and has good hands. I haven't heard anything very negative about him at all, but I've not done a ton of looking at him, either.

thunderkyss
02-21-2012, 06:02 PM
Funny you mentioned this. A poster at another forum I regular just posted this:

Brady doesn't have the arm to get it to him and Wallace isn't out-jumping the defense like Moss

I bolded the parts that struck me for obvious reasons. Guy is a big time Steelers fan.

hmm...... why would a receiver need a QB with an arm bigger than Tom Brady's?

DocBar
02-21-2012, 06:22 PM
hmm...... why would a receiver need a QB with an arm bigger than Tom Brady's?Because Brady has a small arm. DUH!!! :shades:
His arm can't be more that 16-17"'s. I knew this really fat guy that had a 32" arm. Of course, he couldn;t throw a football 20 yds. cuz he was too fat to stand up. Anywho, arm size is all the rage in the NFL. :sarcasm: in case you were wondering.

badboy
02-21-2012, 11:15 PM
Mario isn't under contract, so he can't be traded sadly. I wouldn't mind a sign+trade deal though.Mario Williams contract ends in March. He can be traded.

ObsiWan
02-22-2012, 01:58 AM
For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.

Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)

Your scenarios assume that Barwin and his agent are idiots and don't see what you're trying to do - "get him at a discount". I think they'd say "no thanks" to that deal. His agent will advise him to play out his contract with the thought that if he keeps up his current level of play and keeps piling up the sacks, Barwin will REALLY get paid when this contract runs out.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 03:13 AM
Your scenarios assume that Barwin and his agent are idiots and don't see what you're trying to do - "get him at a discount". I think they'd say "no thanks" to that deal. His agent will advise him to play out his contract with the thought that if he keeps up his current level of play and keeps piling up the sacks, Barwin will REALLY get paid when this contract runs out.

There is nothing idiotic about getting paid a year early. It increases the likelihood of a second, large contract. It reduces risk and offers certainty.

How is it idiotic for Barwin to agree to receive an extra $5-$10 million in 2012 than to receive that money years later?

scenario one... play out contract and then sign a 5 year deal

2012- $600,000
2013- 5 yrs and $35 million ($10 million signing bonus)

Barwin makes $35,600,000 between now and 2018. His cap hit between 2013 and 2017 averages $7 million per year.

scenario two... take a new deal this year
2012- 6 years and $33 million ($10 million signing bonus)

Barwin makes $33 million between now and 2018. However, in 2012, he receives a check for $10 million, which quadruples his net worth. The Texans get a slight discount because they are paying him millions of dollars a year early. There is a further advantage to the cap in 2013-2017 because about $ 3million of the cap charge has been eaten up in the 2012 contract, taking that amount off the books for 2013 and beyond.
His cap hit averages less than $6 million per year in 2013-2017.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 03:14 AM
Mario Williams contract ends in March. He can be traded.

Nobody is going to trade for a guy under contract for two weeks. What would be the point of that?

Lucky
02-22-2012, 03:20 AM
Mario to New England? More of an opinion piece than rumor by this Pro Football Weekly writer, Eric Edholm (http://www.profootballweekly.com/2012/02/12/patriots-could-make-run-at-texans-williams).

Patriots could make run at Texans' Williams

Posted Feb. 12, 2012 @ 10:41 a.m. ET
By Eric Edholm

This could all be moot if the Texans try to wrap up their superstar defender. And if the Patriots go about business the way they have for the majority of the past decade, we can't expect them to provide too many free-agent fireworks.

But it would not stun me one bit if the Patriots make a play for DE Mario Williams.

Bill Belichick is nothing if not opportunistic, and he knows that having one of the finest defensive talents potentially come free like this is a once-a-decade kind of thing he can't afford to pass up. All the signs are there: The Patriots are in great shape, in terms of salary cap, and they have a defense that made strides down the stretch (16.3 points per game allowed in the postseason) but needs a jolt of talent up front.

Williams is 27. He's a superstar. The injury carries little long-term concern. The Texans are way over the cap and have two young, very capable players in Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed who can rush the passer. The Texans' defense did not drop off after Williams' injury; instead, it continued to improve throughout the season. Much as they might want to keep Williams, in many ways a franchise cornerstone the past six years, they might not be able to. Reports have surfaced that the Texans seriously are torn and are starting to accept the idea that they might have to let Williams walk.
Belichick has dabbled in free agency before. The Adalius Thomas signing was a disaster. But, he has to upgrade the talent on defense. And Williams is the most talented defender on the market. Plus, Belichick would be removing a Pro Bowl caliber player from another AFC contender. That might be too tempting for the Hoody to pass up.

Mario's agent would be ecstatic if the Patriots showed interest. Williams can play on a winner and become the highest paid defender in the league? That might be enough to pry Mario from his comfort zone in Houston.

I still believe Williams stays in Houston, by signing a very lucrative contract. Just not the highest contract by a defensive player. But if Mario does move on, New England makes the most sense.

Lucky
02-22-2012, 03:35 AM
Mario Williams contract ends in March. He can be traded.
First, the trade deadline is still in effect until the new league year. By which time, Williams contract will have expired. Williams can't be traded until he's under contract. If the Texans apply the franchise tag, and Williams signs it, he can then be traded. But, that's not going to happen.

leebigeztx
02-22-2012, 12:49 PM
There is nothing idiotic about getting paid a year early. It increases the likelihood of a second, large contract. It reduces risk and offers certainty.

How is it idiotic for Barwin to agree to receive an extra $5-$10 million in 2012 than to receive that money years later?

scenario one... play out contract and then sign a 5 year deal

2012- $600,000
2013- 5 yrs and $35 million ($10 million signing bonus)

Barwin makes $35,600,000 between now and 2018. His cap hit between 2013 and 2017 averages $7 million per year.

scenario two... take a new deal this year
2012- 6 years and $33 million ($10 million signing bonus)

Barwin makes $33 million between now and 2018. However, in 2012, he receives a check for $10 million, which quadruples his net worth. The Texans get a slight discount because they are paying him millions of dollars a year early. There is a further advantage to the cap in 2013-2017 because about $ 3million of the cap charge has been eaten up in the 2012 contract, taking that amount off the books for 2013 and beyond.
His cap hit averages less than $6 million per year in 2013-2017.

So let me get this straight,lol. Barwin get another double digit sack season and he gets a 10m signing bonus? The franchise tag for his position is 10m. I must admit,you're funny. Tamba hali played opposite of allen and never cracked 8sacks. They moved to 3-4 and he get 14.5 sacks and he signs for 6yr 60m with 35m guaranteed. Lamarr woodley who had double digit sacks every yr he's been in the league got the franchis tag of 10m,then the steelers signed him to 6yr 60m with 22m guaranteed. In that,woodley get 27m in the 1st 2 yrs. So now you're going to assume barwin is going to take less than a 3rd in guaranteed money that hali got and less than half of what woodley got. In fact, in your deal, barwin would get less in his entire deal that hali got in signing bonus,lmao! No agent in this game would tell his client to take way below market value. In fact, the nflpa would strongly argue against. The other agents would point ad laugh at you until you had no clients.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 01:52 PM
So let me get this straight,lol. Barwin get another double digit sack season and he gets a 10m signing bonus? The franchise tag for his position is 10m. I must admit,you're funny. Tamba hali played opposite of allen and never cracked 8sacks. They moved to 3-4 and he get 14.5 sacks and he signs for 6yr 60m with 35m guaranteed. Lamarr woodley who had double digit sacks every yr he's been in the league got the franchis tag of 10m,then the steelers signed him to 6yr 60m with 22m guaranteed. In that,woodley get 27m in the 1st 2 yrs. So now you're going to assume barwin is going to take less than a 3rd in guaranteed money that hali got and less than half of what woodley got. In fact, in your deal, barwin would get less in his entire deal that hali got in signing bonus,lmao! No agent in this game would tell his client to take way below market value. In fact, the nflpa would strongly argue against. The other agents would point ad laugh at you until you had no clients.

The numbers are irrelevant. Whatever you think he would sign for, the point is that tearing up his current contract for 2012 allows the team to save money on the future cap. I'm a big supporter of Barwin, but I have not heard anyone put him in the same category as Woodley or Hali. Particularly in the current market, I don't think his name would be mentioned anywhere around theirs. Still, that's not my point.

amazing80
02-22-2012, 03:34 PM
The numbers are irrelevant. Whatever you think he would sign for, the point is that tearing up his current contract for 2012 allows the team to save money on the future cap. I'm a big supporter of Barwin, but I have not heard anyone put him in the same category as Woodley or Hali. Particularly in the current market, I don't think his name would be mentioned anywhere around theirs. Still, that's not my point.

Correct, if we sign Barwin to a more friendly deal now that means we don't pay him top 3 money if he puts up another great season....the goal would be signing him at a more reasonable contract with a little more guarantee to make it worth it to him signing early.....

Mr teX
02-22-2012, 03:35 PM
The numbers are irrelevant. Whatever you think he would sign for, the point is that tearing up his current contract for 2012 allows the team to save money on the future cap. I'm a big supporter of Barwin, but I have not heard anyone put him in the same category as Woodley or Hali. Particularly in the current market, I don't think his name would be mentioned anywhere around theirs. Still, that's not my point.


Dude, you're not making any sense. You're willing to part ways with a guy who is in woodley & hali's class & has proven it. Then you say you'd go ahead & pay a guy that you agree is no where near any of those guys' class.

When people talk about the 90's cowboys teams they're not making mention of guys like Tommie Agee or Jason Garrett....they focus on The Trippletts. Likewise for the steelers teams of late & even the Patriots to an extent with Tom Brady. Star players are the difference between championship teams & teams that fold in the playoffs every year.

So as much as i agree with you about focusing on building the team as a whole and all that, At the end of the day, this game, like all the other 3 comes down to star players. & like leetibigz is saying, whether you pay Mario now or Barwin later, you are going to have to pay someone. My question to you is why in the hell would you opt to pay a guy boatloads of money that has only 1 year of decent production under his belt vs. paying a proven, productive star of mario's caliber?

If all you've got is the fact that we could possibly get Barwin cheaper if we sign him a year earlier, that doesn't remotely make any sense....b/c as leebigtx pointed out, that's not a guarantee & can just as easily backfire on you in a number of ways..see guys like Robaire Smith, Ahman Green & Chris Brown the rb. You also can't really use the reasoning that we were a productive defense without Mario b/c we were just as productive (if not more from an avg. game perspective) with him. Furthermore teams don't voluntarily want to replace star level players with lesser talented guys....they do it out of necessity & if that is the way this plays out, so be it. But i'd much rather see the Texans try to keep this guy by offering him something fair for both sides.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 03:54 PM
Dude, you're not making any sense. You're willing to part ways with a guy who is in woodley & hali's class & has proven it. Then you say you'd go ahead & pay a guy that you agree is no where near any of those guys' class.


Mario proved himself in 2007 and 2008. He has not proven to be a consistent difference-maker since then.

I'm not sure what doesn't make sense. I would rather pay Barwin his market value (or close to it), rather than pay Mario his market value... Why? because I think the market undervalues Barwin right now and overvalues Mario.

You may disagree with the conclusions, but it is sound logic.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 04:04 PM
Dude, you're not making any sense. You're willing to part ways with a guy who is in woodley & hali's class & has proven it. Then you say you'd go ahead & pay a guy that you agree is no where near any of those guys' class.

When people talk about the 90's cowboys teams they're not making mention of guys like Tommie Agee or Jason Garrett....they focus on The Trippletts. Likewise for the steelers teams of late & even the Patriots to an extent with Tom Brady. Star players are the difference between championship teams & teams that fold in the playoffs every year.


How has that "star" mentality worked out for the Cowboys since the salary cap came into existence? NOT WELL!

The Steelers and Patriots regularly let high priced free agents walk in order to manage the team and the cap. They might make one or two exceptions (usually the Quarterback and never an injury-prone and non-essential component of the defense).

Other than QB, show me who the Steelers or Patriots have signed to huge deals (elite, multiyear dollars) the past decade.

Would you like a list of players considered very good and in/near their prime that they dumped to the surprise of the fan base and media? Here's a quick hitter of a few:

New England:
Lawyor Milloy (research that shocker in 2003!)
Richard Seymour
Deion Branch (the first time around, shortly after being Superbowl MVP)
Adalius Thomas

Pittsburgh:
Greg Lloyd
Kevin Greene
Plaxico Burress
Alan Faneca
Santanio Holmes

Ryan
02-22-2012, 04:11 PM
I literally cannot wait for March so this thread can die.

amazing80
02-22-2012, 04:11 PM
How has that "star" mentality worked out for the Cowboys since the salary cap came into existence? NOT WELL!

The Steelers and Patriots regularly let high priced free agents walk in order to manage the team and the cap. They might make one or two exceptions (usually the Quarterback and never an injury-prone and non-essential component of the defense).

Other than QB, show me who the Steelers or Patriots have signed to huge deals (elite, multiyear dollars) the past decade.

Would you like a list of players considered very good and in/near their prime that they dumped to the surprise of the fan base and media? Here's a quick hitter of a few:

New England:
Lawyor Milloy (research that shocker in 2003!)
Richard Seymour
Deion Branch (the first time around, shortly after being Superbowl MVP)
Adalius Thomas

Pittsburgh:
Greg Lloyd
Kevin Greene
Plaxico Burress
Alan Faneca
Santanio Holmes

:heart:

Mr teX
02-22-2012, 04:27 PM
Mario proved himself in 2007 and 2008. He has not proven to be a consistent difference-maker since then.

I'm not sure what doesn't make sense. I would rather pay Barwin his market value (or close to it), rather than pay Mario his market value... Why? because I think the market undervalues Barwin right now and overvalues Mario.

You may disagree with the conclusions, but it is sound logic.

Barwin is probably undervalued on the market, but it makes more sense for both parties to continue to let him play on his rookie contract. The team gets more proof that he can be "that guy" seeing that he's only been able to produce 1 season & 2, they continue to get his services for cheap. The player on the other hand gets the opportunity to drive up his price; whether that's his current team or another.

So in essence what you're saying is you'd be willing to jump the gun & overpay a guy who hasn't really proven anything vs. overpaying the proven commodity who is still in his prime?....:ok:...i guess that's sound logic.

Of course, if his injury history is anything like Mario's, oh wait...it is.

amazing80
02-22-2012, 04:40 PM
Barwin is probably undervalued on the market, but it makes more sense for both parties to continue to let him play on his rookie contract. The team gets more proof that he can be "that guy" seeing that he's only been able to produce 1 season & 2, they continue to get his services for cheap. The player on the other hand gets the opportunity to drive up his price; whether that's his current team or another.

So in essence what you're saying is you'd be willing to jump the gun & overpay a guy who hasn't really proven anything vs. overpaying the proven commodity who is still in his prime?....:ok:...i guess that's sound logic.

Of course, if his injury history is anything like Mario's, oh wait...it is.

So a freak ankle injury is similar to a guy who has had plantar fascilitis, recurring hip injuries, torn pec and a shoulder injury?

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 04:46 PM
Barwin is probably undervalued on the market,

So in essence what you're saying is you'd be willing to jump the gun & overpay a guy who hasn't really proven anything vs. overpaying the proven commodity who is still in his prime?....:ok:...i guess that's sound logic.

Of course, if his injury history is anything like Mario's, oh wait...it is.

You aren't overpaying if you are getting good real value. The Texans have an advantage over the rest of the NFL regarding their assessment of Barwin and Mario.

Mario- they've had six years to watch him in practice, get to know him, etc... and will be less mesmorized by his physique and potential, knowing the reality of what he does for the team.

Barwin- they've had three years to get to know him and will have more insight into the likelihood of his continuing improvement and 2011 performance.

As I stated earlier, great franchises have the ability to assess its roster talent with great aptitude. That's why the great organizations surprise the NFL, fans, and media by releasing "star" players and also when they re-sign/extend players that are off the radar of most of the NFL. I'm hopeful the Texans will become one of these franchises. Letting Mario walk away will be evidence, IMO, that they have. The first sign was their willingness to let Dunta walk two years ago and their signing of Antonio Smith. This past season, targeting Joseph instead of Aso was yet another sign, as was the letting go of Bernard Pollard.

Mr teX
02-22-2012, 04:52 PM
How has that "star" mentality worked out for the Cowboys since the salary cap came into existence? NOT WELL!

The Steelers and Patriots regularly let high priced free agents walk in order to manage the team and the cap. They might make one or two exceptions (usually the Quarterback and never an injury-prone and non-essential component of the defense).

Other than QB, show me who the Steelers or Patriots have signed to huge deals (elite, multiyear dollars) the past decade.

Would you like a list of players considered very good and in/near their prime that they dumped to the surprise of the fan base and media? Here's a quick hitter of a few:

New England:
Lawyor Milloy (research that shocker in 2003!)
Richard Seymour
Deion Branch (the first time around, shortly after being Superbowl MVP)
Adalius Thomas

Pittsburgh:
Greg Lloyd
Kevin Greene
Plaxico Burress
Alan Faneca
Santanio Holmes

Why are Qb's off limits in this convo? they're players too. In any case,

Woodley
Polamalu
J. Harrison
Mank
& The signing of Rodney Harrison for elite money & the release of Lawyer Milloy go hand in hand with each other. They are clearly apples & oranges with respect to Mario & Barwin. In any case, how has that worked out for the patriots defense since they've let all those defensive studs left?

Regardless, the patriots are able to get away with that b/c they have a star at the most important position in the game.

Nice try though.


& Lol, I'd say it has worked out pretty well for the cowboys considering they've gotten 2 SB wins in the salary cap era & multiple playoff appearances...negoatiating Emmitt Smith's holdout immediately in 1994. Aside from that, jerry jones is a meddling asshat & that more than anything is the reason they've falling short for years since he became the owner....totally different topic in any event.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 04:53 PM
So a freak ankle injury is similar to a guy who has had plantar fascilitis, recurring hip injuries, torn pec and a shoulder injury?

You see the influence of the NBA when dealing with fans in the NFL that are obsessed with star players. The NBA has done a lot to ruin our culture's understanding and appreciation of team sports. Fortunately, regardless of what X-Box playing, Lebron James loving, ESPN-watching fans think, the NFL is still the ultimate team sport.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 04:56 PM
& Lol, I'd say it has worked out pretty well for the cowboys considering they've gotten 2 SB wins in the salary cap era & multiple playoff appearances...negoatiating Emmitt Smith's holdout immediately in 1994.

Once the salary cap really took hold, the Cowboys were done. Despite Jerry's continual efforts to attract star power, they've never been successful in this salary cap environment. The first couple years of the cap, it was easy to push money forward and delay the inevitable.

Mr teX
02-22-2012, 05:00 PM
So a freak ankle injury is similar to a guy who has had plantar fascilitis, recurring hip injuries, torn pec and a shoulder injury?

Dont play dumb...you know schaub's had shoulder injuries & other injuries in years past that have affected his play on the field. Hell there are those around here that were calling him injury prone too just 2 years ago....& we know about AJ's injuries the last couple of years. That's what a few of us in here have been saying all along...You guys choose to look at a particular players' injuries history when you want to, when it's convient for your argument.

All this hub-bub about mario being injury prone & how we shouldn't resign him....well, what about Owen Daniels? He's been probably the most oft injured guy on the team....missing games to boot. Yet, noone is in here talking about cutting him or restructuring his contract to get other more viable guys back into the fold. & this is a guy who's back up has really been producing for us & we all know how Gary loves to draft TE's. If anyone's expendable its him.

Dutchrudder
02-22-2012, 05:09 PM
Dont play dumb...you know schaub's had shoulder injuries & other injuries in years past that have affected his play on the field. Hell there are those around here that were calling him injury prone too just 2 years ago....& we know about AJ's injuries the last couple of years. That's what a few of us in here have been saying all along...You guys choose to look at a particular players' injuries history when you want to, when it's convient for your argument.

All this hub-bub about mario being injury prone & how we shouldn't resign him....well, what about Owen Daniels? He's been probably the most oft injured guy on the team....missing games to boot. Yet, noone is in here talking about cutting him or restructuring his contract to get other more viable guys back into the fold. & this is a guy who's back up has really been producing for us & we all know how Gary loves to draft TE's. If anyone's expendable its him.

We have a thread that discusses OD and other guys here:
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89935

Also, this guy Alan Burge suggested it along with other players that may have to be restructured in order for the Texans re-sign their key free agents:
http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/texans-must-clear-cap-space-coming-weeks?CID=examiner_alerts_article#ixzz1n1Vn8wbN

Restructuring some contracts and cutting Jacoby will likely need to happen in order to re-sign just Foster and Myers alone. More will have to be done to get room for Mario, or he will have to have a really low cap number this year (like 3-7 million). There are ways to do it, but it's playing with fire to assume that we can keep putting off paying these guys money. Supposedly the Texans already restructured Ryans, Smith and AJ's deals last year to make room for JJo and Manning. We can kick the can down the road again this year, but there may be cap hell to pay in 2013 if the cap doesn't increase beyond 140 million.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 05:10 PM
Why are Qb's off limits in this convo? they're players too. In any case,

Woodley
Polamalu
J. Harrison
Mank
The signing of Rodney Harrison for elite money
Nice try though.
.

Here are those deals you are referring to:

Woodley 6yrs and $61 million
Polamalu 4yrs and $36 million
J. Harison6yrs and $51 million

Rodney Harrison 6 yrs and $14.5 million


Let's look at Woodley's deal.. .that's the big one. How about we compare Woodley's production to Mario's over the past 4 seasons.

Woodley has 11 more sacks and 4 more interceptions. He drops into coverage much more often, is better pursuing downfield and on the back side. Mario is better against the run at the point of attack, usually.

So the Steelers are paying a guy who's the same age and has been more consistent, more flexible, healthier, and better $10 million a year.

Yet, most of us realize Mario will be looking at something closer to $15 million a year. The Steelers were able to franchise Woodley at the OLB level (roughly $8 million). That gave them negotiating power to get the deal they did. The Texans have no negotiating power for a player that the NFL overvalues.

The other contracts are very reasonable. I would be happy for the Texans to sign Mario to a deal similar to the one James Harrison or Polamalu received. However, he'll be looking at a figure close to twice those totals.

amazing80
02-22-2012, 05:11 PM
Dont play dumb...you know schaub's had shoulder injuries & other injuries in years past that have affected his play on the field. Hell there are those around here that were calling him injury prone too just 2 years ago....& we know about AJ's injuries the last couple of years. That's what a few of us in here have been saying all along...You guys choose to look at a particular players' injuries history when you want to, when it's convient for your argument.

All this hub-bub about mario being injury prone & how we shouldn't resign him....well, what about Owen Daniels? He's been probably the most oft injured guy on the team....missing games to boot. Yet, noone is in here talking about cutting him or restructuring his contract to get other more viable guys back into the fold. & this is a guy who's back up has really been producing for us & we all know how Gary loves to draft TE's. If anyone's expendable its him.

Again Matt's injuries were flukes, because of late hits which most were fined for. And again, we're not talking about cutting Mario, were simply suggesting not to re-sign him, BIG DIFFERENCE.

Ask yourself this, if Mario was a Packers DE/OLB would you shell out the money to lure him here away from GB? Detach yourself from him for one minute and realize you wouldn't....

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 05:29 PM
Dont play dumb...you know schaub's had shoulder injuries & other injuries in years past that have affected his play on the field. Hell there are those around here that were calling him injury prone too just 2 years ago....& we know about AJ's injuries the last couple of years. That's what a few of us in here have been saying all along...You guys choose to look at a particular players' injuries history when you want to, when it's convient for your argument.

All this hub-bub about mario being injury prone & how we shouldn't resign him....well, what about Owen Daniels? He's been probably the most oft injured guy on the team....missing games to boot. Yet, noone is in here talking about cutting him or restructuring his contract to get other more viable guys back into the fold. & this is a guy who's back up has really been producing for us & we all know how Gary loves to draft TE's. If anyone's expendable its him.

AJ, Schaub, and OD are all under existing contracts, which has nothing to do with Mario's situation. Cutting any of those guys would destroy our 2012 cap and eliminate any possibility of the Texans signing Myers or Mario.

By the way, OD's contract was about 5yrs and $20 million. That's a pretty low risk. I'm not a big OD guy, actually, and was initially worried when I heard they signed him to the deal. Only after I saw how moderate the deal was did I embrace it. And, we aren't talking about cutting Mario. He is a free agent. As Amazing 80 said, there is a big difference.

Beyond contract talk, when the offense is missing either Schaub or AJ, it is not as productive. That's a huge difference. When the defense missed Mario last year, it was great! As a Texan fan, that seems like a fairly important point that you gloss over.

thunderkyss
02-22-2012, 06:42 PM
So a freak ankle injury is similar to a guy who has had plantar fascilitis, recurring hip injuries, torn pec and a shoulder injury?

The biggest difference between Mario & Barwin is that Barwin got his double digit sack year in the same year that 6 other Texans had 5 or more sacks.

Mario has only has never had that kind of help.... or scheme.. or whatever you want to call it. Effort (from the rest of the team) I guess.

thunderkyss
02-22-2012, 06:45 PM
As I stated earlier, great franchises have the ability to assess its roster talent with great aptitude. That's why the great organizations surprise the NFL, fans, and media by releasing "star" players and also when they re-sign/extend players that are off the radar of most of the NFL. I'm hopeful the Texans will become one of these franchises. Letting Mario walk away will be evidence, IMO, that they have.

But, if they sign Mario to a long term deal, there will be no doubt in your mind that the Texans "assessed" the situation incorrectly.

Despite the unique position they have.... over the fans, right?

Anywho, rest assured the Texans will do every thing they can to make sure Mario Williams is a Texans for a long time to come.

thunderkyss
02-22-2012, 07:28 PM
Here are those deals you are referring to:

Woodley 6yrs and $61 million
Polamalu 4yrs and $36 million
J. Harison6yrs and $51 million

Rodney Harrison 6 yrs and $14.5 million


Let's look at Woodley's deal.. .that's the big one. How about we compare Woodley's production to Mario's over the past 4 seasons.

Woodley has 11 more sacks and 4 more interceptions. He drops into coverage much more often, is better pursuing downfield and on the back side. Mario is better against the run at the point of attack, usually.

So the Steelers are paying a guy who's the same age and has been more consistent, more flexible, healthier, and better $10 million a year.

Yet, most of us realize Mario will be looking at something closer to $15 million a year. The Steelers were able to franchise Woodley at the OLB level (roughly $8 million). That gave them negotiating power to get the deal they did. The Texans have no negotiating power for a player that the NFL overvalues.

The other contracts are very reasonable. I would be happy for the Texans to sign Mario to a deal similar to the one James Harrison or Polamalu received. However, he'll be looking at a figure close to twice those totals.

FYI, I'm on the "Sign Mario to a long term deal" bandwagon. However, I also said we should not over pay him. I set parameters, Pepper's contract is the high end & anything over that is over paying.

I also said we should not be against signing Mario to a deal $10M - $14M If Rick Smith can point to Woodley & say this is why we think this is a fair deal..... & Mario walks, I'm ok with that. & any reasonable person should be.

What I have not said, & will not say, is that $10M/yr should be the most we offer.... I don't believe that.

HJam72
02-22-2012, 07:44 PM
Personally, I think he's one big cap casualty. This team can get by without him easier than it can without Briesel, let alone Myers, Foster, etc.

Yep, one big cap casualty made up of yearly, nagging injuries and excuses for not performing up to his presumed ability.

Mario could dominate games, but doesn't. Albert Haynesworth is like that...

thunderkyss
02-22-2012, 07:47 PM
Again Matt's injuries were flukes, because of late hits which most were fined for. And again, we're not talking about cutting Mario, were simply suggesting not to re-sign him, BIG DIFFERENCE.

Ask yourself this, if Mario was a Packers DE/OLB would you shell out the money to lure him here away from GB? Detach yourself from him for one minute and realize you wouldn't....

I'd be 100% against bringing Mario in as a FA..... but that's a little different. If we were the Packers, two years out from a Super Bowl, I'd be willing to go into FA negotiations with a player of Mario's caliber; expected to be the #1 FA of the season.

Same, if I were the Giants, the Patriots, the Ravens, or the Saints. They will get a discount, because they can offer an honest-to-God opportunity to win a Super Bowl.

& by "discount" I mean the ability to sign such a player for fair-market-value.

If I thought we could get Asomugha for fair-market-value I would be all for it... If I thought we could get Peyton Manning for fair-market-value, I'd be all for it.

But to come to Houston.... We're going to have to over pay. We've seen it. We've seen players go to other teams for less money. We've seen players use us to fuel a bidding war.

But, we've got Mario here. We have an opportunity to negotiate a fair-market-deal with the kind of player we'd only be able to get through trade (& we don't trade), & that's what we should do. Negotiate a fair market deal.

I wouldn't suggest we over-pay Mario if he were a FA. I do not suggest we over-pay Mario to prevent him from becoming a FA.

& even though we may be the "most balanced" team in the league, there is no guarantee that we can get close to the Super Bowl in 2012. We've still got a lot to prove, before we start letting our best players walk.

redwhiteblue
02-22-2012, 09:00 PM
I am not satisfied being the #2 defense in the nfl. I want to be the #1 defense. I want to be one of the all time greats. I want to be the '85 Bears. No, I want to be better than the '85 Bears. And Mario can take us from really good to great. We will be fine without him if he moves on, but I don't think we will have the chance to be something truly special. And any fan that watched the games last year knows we are right on the edge of that.

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 09:23 PM
I am not satisfied being the #2 defense in the nfl. I want to be the #1 defense. I want to be one of the all time greats. I want to be the '85 Bears. No, I want to be better than the '85 Bears. And Mario can take us from really good to great. We will be fine without him if he moves on, but I don't think we will have the chance to be something truly special. And any fan that watched the games last year knows we are right on the edge of that.

2011 Yards per game with Mario = 325
2011 Yards per game w/o Mario = 255

Do you really think that $15 million per year couldn't be better allocated on this defense? For that price, the Texans could sign a pretty good edge rusher and then still go get an elite cornerback to play opposite of Joseph.

instead of Mario, the Texans could do something like the following:

Tyvon Branch (SS, FS)... roughly $6 million per year
Richard Marshall (CB).... roughly $4 million per year
Ahmad Brooks (OLB)--- roughly $5 million per year.

redwhiteblue
02-22-2012, 09:46 PM
2011 Yards per game with Mario = 325
2011 Yards per game w/o Mario = 255year

I don't think it is as simple as the numbers indicate. If Mario was free, which defense would you rather have?

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 10:02 PM
I don't think it is as simple as the numbers indicate. If Mario was free, which defense would you rather have?

Would I rather have Mario than nothing? In that scenario, Mario wins. Those numbers do indicate that Mario was not the difference-maker some people want to believe he is.

Ryan
02-22-2012, 10:03 PM
2011 Yards per game with Mario = 325
2011 Yards per game w/o Mario = 255



That is such crap and you know it. You mean to tell me the Texans only got better when Mario was out and didn't happen to get more familiar with their scheme and get better as the season progressed?

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 10:09 PM
That is such crap and you know it. You mean to tell me the Texans only got better when Mario was out and didn't happen to get more familiar with their scheme and get better as the season progressed?

The defense did, in fact, get better when Mario was out. I'm not arguing that his absence is the sole (or even the primary) reason for the defensive improvement. I have no doubt that there were many factors involved in that improvement. However, Mario's presence on the field was clearly not one of the factors. He was on the bench. Those are damning numbers for people saying that Mario is an essential piece of this defense's success.

thunderkyss
02-22-2012, 10:33 PM
Fox Sports (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/02/22/12/Texans-preparing-for-Williams-talks/landing_texans.html?blockID=671482&feedID=3551)Owner Bob McNair, general manager Rick Smith and coach Gary Kubiak have said that signing Williams to a long-term contract is their top priority.

Top 10 Defensive Free Agents1) Mario Williams, Houston: He can be an elite 4-3 end and surprised with how well he transitioned to OLB in Wade Phillips’s 3-4 scheme.

Deacon Jones (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/02/nfl-legend-deacon-jones-texans-stupid-to-let-mario-go/)Texans would be “stupid” to let Mario Williams go

dalemurphy
02-22-2012, 10:38 PM
Fox Sports (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/02/22/12/Texans-preparing-for-Williams-talks/landing_texans.html?blockID=671482&feedID=3551)

Top 10 Defensive Free Agents

Deacon Jones (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/02/nfl-legend-deacon-jones-texans-stupid-to-let-mario-go/)





* Hopefully, McNair/Smith/Kubes are doing public relations and helping Mario by keeping his value high.

* Another acknowledgement that his best position is in a 4-3 defense... which means a 4-3 team can get more value from him

* Deacon Jones? really? who cares what he thinks. Great player but he is WAAYYY too far removed from the game for his opinion regarding talent evaluation to hold any weight

Scooter
02-22-2012, 11:41 PM
The defense did, in fact, get better when Mario was out. I'm not arguing that his absence is the sole (or even the primary) reason for the defensive improvement. I have no doubt that there were many factors involved in that improvement. However, Mario's presence on the field was clearly not one of the factors. He was on the bench. Those are damning numbers for people saying that Mario is an essential piece of this defense's success.

the defense getting better had zero to do with mario. the schedule dropped off after week 6 as everyone knew would happen and the team had time to grow into wade's system. the biggest concern going into next season is the games we played without mario were as weak a schedule as we could get. mario's sample is also destroyed by playing against the saints (the only elite offense we faced this season) - which is not calculated into your "got better without" numbers.

i like a lot of your arguments dale, and love that you stick by what you see, but this is terrible. as someone who goes by the tape and what's on the field, i'm a bit disappointed that you'd skew stats in such a way to support an opinion. knock him for crashing the line in the saints game or going too wide against the dolphins with an example of how another OLB did better, but that post is fubar.

there are 4 must have positions in football. quarterback, left tackle, rush end/OLB, and cornerback. a top 5 at the position, elite by most standards player at one of those primary positions is on the team ... you keep him. heck if carolina had peppers last season they'd have been truely threatening. wade says he'll likely break the sack record, every pundit has mario head and shoulders above the rest as the top free agent, and our front office has labeled him the biggest priority. you really think we're better without him because "the numbers say so"?

ckhouston
02-22-2012, 11:44 PM
I am not satisfied being the #2 defense in the nfl. I want to be the #1 defense. I want to be one of the all time greats. I want to be the '85 Bears. No, I want to be better than the '85 Bears. And Mario can take us from really good to great. We will be fine without him if he moves on, but I don't think we will have the chance to be something truly special. And any fan that watched the games last year knows we are right on the edge of that.

I agree. With Mario and being able to rotate in fresh Reed for both he and Barwin, we could go down as the best ever. All three can be beasts at that position and set this team up for historical production on defense. I hope we get to see it happen.

ckhouston
02-22-2012, 11:49 PM
Maybe being around the likes of AJ and Schaub could make a difference with him. I know very little about him other than damned good stats. He can really stretch the field and has good hands. I haven't heard anything very negative about him at all, but I've not done a ton of looking at him, either.

Being around AJ could help him develop that truly professional work ethic, and win at all costs mentallity. Schaub on the other hand may teach him its ok to play without emotion, and frustrate him because if he stretches the field ... he will never see the ball. Now Peyton (if healthy) on the other hand ... :good:

leebigeztx
02-23-2012, 01:49 AM
Dale, you're a funny man. You compared woodley to mario,yet you fail to mention harrison had 100 tckls and 16 sacks and troy p was also a def player of the year. The most sacks a guy oppsosite mario had was 5. The steeler have averaged like 50 sacks per yr vs the texans who were in the 30s. We're not even going to talk about the bakend coverage that allows pass rushers to get to the qb or lbs squeezing windows. You know why mario imo deserves more than woodley or harrison? He deserves more because of his flexibility. If ziggy hood or cam hayward goes down,neither woodley or harrison can play the 5 technique. If smith or watt goes down or if the texans lost a couple of lbs, mario can play the 5 technique or allow wade to morph into a 4-3. How many players in the league can do that? Its convenient how you left off tamba hali and his 35m guarnteed or woodley 27m in first 2 yrs. You also left off barwin playing out his rookie deal,getting franchised for 10m in one year and probably costing at least what hali got. I know you have you reasons and I disagree big time. No team let's a 27 yr old pass rusher walk out the door. No one. Not the steeler,pats,eagles, no team. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen for a reason. If he gets on the open market watch the offer he gets. That will tell you a lot about his value accross the league.

dalemurphy
02-23-2012, 06:39 AM
Dale, you're a funny man. You compared woodley to mario,yet you fail to mention harrison had 100 tckls and 16 sacks and troy p was also a def player of the year. The most sacks a guy oppsosite mario had was 5. The steeler have averaged like 50 sacks per yr vs the texans who were in the 30s. We're not even going to talk about the bakend coverage that allows pass rushers to get to the qb or lbs squeezing windows. You know why mario imo deserves more than woodley or harrison? He deserves more because of his flexibility. If ziggy hood or cam hayward goes down,neither woodley or harrison can play the 5 technique. If smith or watt goes down or if the texans lost a couple of lbs, mario can play the 5 technique or allow wade to morph into a 4-3. How many players in the league can do that? Its convenient how you left off tamba hali and his 35m guarnteed or woodley 27m in first 2 yrs. You also left off barwin playing out his rookie deal,getting franchised for 10m in one year and probably costing at least what hali got. I know you have you reasons and I disagree big time. No team let's a 27 yr old pass rusher walk out the door. No one. Not the steeler,pats,eagles, no team. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen for a reason. If he gets on the open market watch the offer he gets. That will tell you a lot about his value accross the league.

So, your proof that Mario isn't overvalued and overpriced is that he's going to make a ton of money? Umm, okay.

Another funny argument: the $15 million man needs more talent around him to produce at the level of guys making half of that... Talking about chasing your tail. If you pay Mario his "market value", it will be very difficult to keep talent around him.

By the way, who were the monsters of the midway that Barwin played with last season to get his 11.5 sacks? He did most of his damage after Mario was gone. Coincidence? No. Once Barwin moved into Mario's position (a spot designed to accumulate sacks), he excelled. Did the players around him have something to do with that? Absolutely! That's been my point all along. This is a very good defense without Mario. Let's not foolishly spend over 10% of the entire cap on one non-essential player and create problems for ourselves heading into 2013.

By the way, how many sacks did Mario have this year while surrounded by all that talent? Oh, yeah: 5. That's one sack for every $3.5 million. I know he was injured. That's my point!

Again, I don't want Barwin to play out his rookie deal. I want him signed now.
Barwin, by the way, could play end in a 4-3 defense. Woodley could as well. Mario can do less from OLB than Barwin or Woodley. They are much better dropping in coverage.

I have no idea what your point regarding Hali was. I argued that the great organizations avoid shelling out huge dollars to non-essential players like Mario. Are you saying that K.C. is a great organization?

"Deserves" is a funny word. I don't care what Mario "deserves". All I'm concerned with, and all the Texans should concern themselves with, is what will allow the Texans' organization to excel for as long as possible. Someone else can reward Mario for his physique and potential. The Texans have given him over $50 million. I'm not too hung up on making sure we compensate him beyond that.


Scooter: really? Do you actually believe what you've said? Compare how the Texans defense did in each game vs. the average of the opponent it faced.

for instance:

Mario's games:
Indy
Miami
N.O.
Pittsburgh.

Out of those 4 games, the Texans gave up more than the league average to New Orleans and Miami and about the league average to Indy. That trend does not continue once the team gets into October. Almost every week, the Texans defense gives up many fewer yards and points than the league average against that opponent.

Mr teX
02-23-2012, 08:46 AM
AJ, Schaub, and OD are all under existing contracts, which has nothing to do with Mario's situation. Cutting any of those guys would destroy our 2012 cap and eliminate any possibility of the Texans signing Myers or Mario.

By the way, OD's contract was about 5yrs and $20 million. That's a pretty low risk. I'm not a big OD guy, actually, and was initially worried when I heard they signed him to the deal. Only after I saw how moderate the deal was did I embrace it. And, we aren't talking about cutting Mario. He is a free agent. As Amazing 80 said, there is a big difference.

Beyond contract talk, when the offense is missing either Schaub or AJ, it is not as productive. That's a huge difference. When the defense missed Mario last year, it was great! As a Texan fan, that seems like a fairly important point that you gloss over.

It's not an important point i'm glossing over; i'm just acknowledging all, the more pertinent factors that led to why our defense came on strong later in the season whereas you're purposely trying to present Mario's presence & absence as cause & effect.

The reality of it is no team lets a 27 yr. old pro bowl pass rusher in his prime walk unless they don't have a choice in the matter (he takes more money elsewhere) or he's a head case.

Blake
02-23-2012, 09:05 AM
I literally cannot wait for March so this thread can die.

No kidding right? I mean how long can Dale and others continue this circular argument? I think we understand how everyone feels on the subject. But they keep trying to beat eachothers brains in with stats and dollar amounts.

Its time to just sit back and wait on Mario news.

ThaShark316
02-23-2012, 09:41 AM
The defense did, in fact, get better when Mario was out. I'm not arguing that his absence is the sole (or even the primary) reason for the defensive improvement. I have no doubt that there were many factors involved in that improvement. However, Mario's presence on the field was clearly not one of the factors. He was on the bench. Those are damning numbers for people saying that Mario is an essential piece of this defense's success.

3 games we missed Mario (don't forget Mario got hurt vs. NO)...

40, 25 and 29.

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff390/ShaneDawg021/mayweatherpeace.png

The defense was close to being a shut down defense regardless. You can't deny that a player of Williams' caliber helps the D. Hurry up, March.

b0ng
02-23-2012, 09:49 AM
3 games we missed Mario (don't forget Mario got hurt vs. NO)...

40, 25 and 29.

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff390/ShaneDawg021/mayweatherpeace.png

The defense was close to being a shut down defense regardless. You can't deny that a player of Williams' caliber helps the D. Hurry up, March.

Mario got hurt vs Oakland.

Mr teX
02-23-2012, 10:44 AM
So, your proof that Mario isn't overvalued and overpriced is that he's going to make a ton of money? Umm, okay.

Another funny argument: the $15 million man needs more talent around him to produce at the level of guys making half of that... Talking about chasing your tail. If you pay Mario his "market value", it will be very difficult to keep talent around him.


The point you seem to actively be trying to ignore is that Mario HAS done it without all the talent around him; he's done it for years. Hell you acknowledged it a few posts ago with your "mario proved his worth in 2007 & 2009" comment.


By the way, who were the monsters of the midway that Barwin played with last season to get his 11.5 sacks? He did most of his damage after Mario was gone. Coincidence? No. Once Barwin moved into Mario's position (a spot designed to accumulate sacks), he excelled. Did the players around him have something to do with that? Absolutely! That's been my point all along. This is a very good defense without Mario. Let's not foolishly spend over 10% of the entire cap on one non-essential player and create problems for ourselves heading into 2013.

Newsflash homie, the 2 years you yourself acknowledge that mario "produced" were better than anything Barwin has done to date. In fact, Barwin barely eclipsed mario's 2010 production despite him sitting out the last 2 remaining games of 2010.

By the way, how many sacks did Mario have this year while surrounded by all that talent? Oh, yeah: 5. That's one sack for every $3.5 million. I know he was injured. That's my point!

You have no point other than you clearly have it out for the guy.

Again, I don't want Barwin to play out his rookie deal. I want him signed now.
Barwin, by the way, could play end in a 4-3 defense. Woodley could as well. Mario can do less from OLB than Barwin or Woodley. They are much better dropping in coverage.

I have no idea what your point regarding Hali was. I argued that the great organizations avoid shelling out huge dollars to non-essential players like Mario. Are you saying that K.C. is a great organization?

The reason he keeps bringing up Hali is b/c Barwin has 0 reason to want to renegotiate a deal at this point, much less the undervalued deal for his position you keep trying to throw out there for him. Why would he take your deal when he can look at deals that Tamba Hali got for the same position with roughly the same amount of production in the 2 years that each player "broke out"? The only way he renegotiates is if the Texans promist to blow his socks off with a deal; at which point we'd basically be back at this same juncture we are now with mario.....just with a far less capable & proven guy.


"Deserves" is a funny word. I don't care what Mario "deserves". All I'm concerned with, and all the Texans should concern themselves with, is what will allow the Texans' organization to excel for as long as possible. Someone else can reward Mario for his physique and potential. The Texans have given him over $50 million. I'm not too hung up on making sure we compensate him beyond that.


Scooter: really? Do you actually believe what you've said? Compare how the Texans defense did in each game vs. the average of the opponent it faced.

for instance:

Mario's games:
Indy
Miami
N.O.
Pittsburgh.

Out of those 4 games, the Texans gave up more than the league average to New Orleans and Miami and about the league average to Indy. That trend does not continue once the team gets into October. Almost every week, the Texans defense gives up many fewer yards and points than the league average against that opponent.

Yeah...its also not a coincidence that our schedule hit a soft spot in Oct - Nov playing teams that were among the worst in football with TB, CLE, JAC & TEN all on the schedule in 5 consecutive weeks. The games in that same stretch were that wasn't the case? our defense got 29 & 25 pts dropped on them in losing efforts.

& as good as our defense was without him we still:

couldn't stop Dan Orlovsky from driving a pathetic Colts offense down the field 80+ yards with less than 2 minutes for a game winning TD score - loss

couldn't stop an interception prone rookie qb in Cam Newton from running & passing all over us - loss

& if it weren't for a heroic effort by TJ Yates we probably would've been beaten by another rookie qb & wr we couldn't stop in the 1st half.

You're just completely over-playing your hand & the fallacy in your argument is that you're assuming too much...assuming that everthing falls into place....assuming that Barwin will renegotiate a below market deal for his position......assuming that we'll have enough left over to hit FA & snag FA's that want to be here & make a more of a difference than simply just resigning a difference maker you already have history & ties with.

ThaShark316
02-23-2012, 10:46 AM
Mario got hurt vs Oakland.

I know this. Remember the near blown out knee vs. NO? That's what I was referring to, as well.

Blake
02-23-2012, 11:01 AM
don't forget Mario got hurt vs. NO...

Mario got hurt vs Oakland.

I know this. Remember the near blown out knee vs. NO? That's what I was referring to, as well.

:confused:

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 11:45 AM
If smith or watt goes down or if the texans lost a couple of lbs, mario can play the 5 technique or allow wade to morph into a 4-3.

& you know that's exactly what we'll do instead of increasing the playing times of players like Bullman & Jamison. Those are good rotation guys, but not the main event.

Without Mario, you're one front 7 injury away from a bottom of the league defense.

True, with Mario, he's probably going to be that one injury. Without him, it will be someone else.

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 11:50 AM
Another funny argument: the $15 million man needs more talent around him to produce at the level of guys making half of that... Talking about chasing your tail. If you pay Mario his "market value", it will be very difficult to keep talent around him.



First, get away from $15M, no one is saying to pay Mario $15M. If I'm wrong, please speak up.

Anyone who wants to pay Mario $15M/yr please speak up.

Second, you're not following. Woodley wouldn't be an 11 sack guy (or whatever he was) without Harrison or Kiesel or Hampton. Look at the numbers, Mario has never had the kind of help Harrison has had.

He's been our pass rush, more than 50% of our sacks, hits, hurries, pressures have been Mario. Because he is all that.

leebigeztx
02-23-2012, 12:05 PM
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Dale has his mind made up. Its very funny that besides mario signing with a 25m guarantee, he expect barwin to take a crackhead 8m bonus now. I don't know what world he lives in, but he would be the worse agent in the world. He would be like master p as an agent.

thunderkyss
02-23-2012, 12:13 PM
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Dale has his mind made up. Its very funny that besides mario signing with a 25m guarantee, he expect barwin to take a crackhead 8m bonus now. I don't know what world he lives in, but he would be the worse agent in the world. He would be like master p as an agent.

I don't think he literally meant $8M. It was just a number he pulled out of his butt to illustrate a point.

Whether it's $10M or $90M, we save money by doing it now, instead of letting Connor test FA.

He's got a point, but.... shouldn't have anything to do with Mario. Like you said, Mario is Batman...... Connor is Robin.

Allstar
02-24-2012, 01:05 PM
Well Smithiak sure sounded like they wanted Mario back at the combine today.

HOU-TEX
02-24-2012, 01:26 PM
2011 Yards per game with Mario = 325
2011 Yards per game w/o Mario = 255


You keep spewing crap about how the defense got better when Mario got injured, yet disregard the fact that the defense as a whole was still in learning mode. No off-season practice with a new DC and scheme might make for a slow start, no? There were defensive players making statements in season about how they were still learning.

We ALL know your stance on Mario, but making BS statements with stats isn't helping you with your obsession.

I do want Mario to stay, but will understand if we can't offer the jack he might want and he signs elsewhere.

thunderkyss
02-24-2012, 02:49 PM
I do want Mario to stay, but will understand if we can't offer the jack he might want and he signs elsewhere.

I completely agree. Which is why I'd like to get it out now, how much is too much.

I don't want to overpay for Mario or any FA. I have no problem playing our star players, I happen to think Mario is a star player.

Wolf
02-24-2012, 03:40 PM
"Mario (Wiliams) is a great player and we want him to be a part of our football team and our organization, so we’re working hard to figure out a way to get that done.” - Texans GM/Executive VP Rick Smith
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/427057_10150564949126314_51931216313_9431448_70299 3067_n.jpg
https://www.facebook.com/HoustonTexans

dalemurphy
02-24-2012, 04:25 PM
You keep spewing crap about how the defense got better when Mario got injured, yet disregard the fact that the defense as a whole was still in learning mode. No off-season practice with a new DC and scheme might make for a slow start, no? There were defensive players making statements in season about how they were still learning.

We ALL know your stance on Mario, but making BS statements with stats isn't helping you with your obsession.

I do want Mario to stay, but will understand if we can't offer the jack he might want and he signs elsewhere.


I've said a dozen times that I agree there are many variables that contributed to the improvement. You continue to skate from the point which is this:

without Mario (and despite his enormous drain on the cap), the Texans were a great defense over a 14 game period. That's it. There is no evidence that Mario would make a significant difference in the play of the defense. I understand that many of you are in awe of his physical ability. What is the imperical evidence that shows the Texans' defense would be significantly better with him on the field?

badboy
02-24-2012, 04:31 PM
I've said a dozen times that I agree there are many variables that contributed to the improvement. You continue to skate from the point which is this:

without Mario (and despite his enormous drain on the cap), the Texans were a great defense over a 14 game period. That's it. There is no evidence that Mario would make a significant difference in the play of the defense. I understand that many of you are in awe of his physical ability. What is the imperical evidence that shows the Texans' defense would be significantly better with him on the field?Dm, I'd re-state your position thus: which is better? 2011 Texans + Mario or 2011 Texans minus Mario but using his cap of $18-20m to sign FA WR and LG? $9m for each player first year of a deal should be enticing.

Note* I do like Mario & expect him to be a Texan.

b0ng
02-24-2012, 04:52 PM
Is the prevailing insanity right now that the defense got better because Mario Williams was gone most of 2011, or that it got better while he was gone most of 2011?

Brandon420tx
02-24-2012, 05:07 PM
I thought our defense got better because of Wade Phillips. What I'm most worried about is getting a San Diego Chargers situation when Merrimen went off the juice (and got injured/left the team) and they completely lost their pass rush.

dalemurphy
02-24-2012, 05:16 PM
Is the prevailing insanity right now that the defense got better because Mario Williams was gone most of 2011, or that it got better while he was gone most of 2011?

Shouldn't either answer result in the same conclusion?: let Mario Walk.

thunderkyss
02-24-2012, 06:07 PM
Shouldn't either answer result in the same conclusion?: let Mario Walk.

I'm drooling, like Wade Phillips is. If his defense resulted in career numbers for Barwin, Smith, & brought Cushing back to life, I can't wait to see Mario Williams after a full off-season in this system.

b0ng
02-24-2012, 06:40 PM
Shouldn't either answer result in the same conclusion?: let Mario Walk.

Counter-Point: Pretty sure the defense is even better than it was in 2011 if we retain Mario.

Reading your posts I would assume that you presume the former is true and not the latter?

dalemurphy
02-24-2012, 07:20 PM
Counter-Point: Pretty sure the defense is even better than it was in 2011 if we retain Mario.

Reading your posts I would assume that you presume the former is true and not the latter?

I waffle back and forth whether Mario's presence would've stunted some of what happened last year. I'm confident his $15 million could be spent much more wisely, though.

thunderkyss
02-24-2012, 08:47 PM
I waffle back and forth whether Mario's presence would've stunted some of what happened last year. I'm confident his $15 million could be spent much more wisely, though.

Good thing his cap number won't be $15M

gary
02-25-2012, 09:40 AM
Pats need front line help and back line help but if they sign Mario then they might not have enough money to sign Welker.

DocBar
02-25-2012, 05:42 PM
Good thing his cap number won't be $15MIt might be $15M for some team, but it will be $0M for the Texans...:kitten:

drs23
02-26-2012, 09:25 AM
Why won't this fkn thread go to the last two pages?

Must be some really secret stuff, huh?

:snarl:

wildroot
02-26-2012, 09:54 AM
Bottom line is we can't have a high-priced stud at every position, there's not enough cap room for any team to staff up that way. You have to sprinkle your stars around your lower paid players and find that sweet spot. So in a few years we'd have Barwin, Reed wanting to get paid along with Mario (if we sign him), Ryans and Cushing...and Watt and Smith. I don't know that we'll be able to afford all that talent on the D-line and at LB. It was sure nice to have Reed to go to when Mario went down, so without Mario we wouldn't have that luxury any longer unless we pull another rabbit outta the hat in April. Now I know the Cap is supposed to increase substantially next year which may make signing Mario doable if we get a little creative ala large signing bonus and putting off some of the big $$$$s till next year. But lets don't forget if by some miracle we get out guys resigned, we still have a whole draft class to deal with....perhaps it's a good thing we don't pick till 26. And then there's next year.

badboy
02-26-2012, 03:28 PM
Bottom line is we can't have a high-priced stud at every position, there's not enough cap room for any team to staff up that way. You have to sprinkle your stars around your lower paid players and find that sweet spot. So in a few years we'd have Barwin, Reed wanting to get paid along with Mario (if we sign him), Ryans and Cushing...and Watt and Smith. I don't know that we'll be able to afford all that talent on the D-line and at LB. It was sure nice to have Reed to go to when Mario went down, so without Mario we wouldn't have that luxury any longer unless we pull another rabbit outta the hat in April. Now I know the Cap is supposed to increase substantially next year which may make signing Mario doable if we get a little creative ala large signing bonus and putting off some of the big $$$$s till next year. But lets don't forget if by some miracle we get out guys resigned, we still have a whole draft class to deal with....perhaps it's a good thing we don't pick till 26. And then there's next year.just curious where you got this info. Most say maximum increase to apprx $124m from $120m & maybe not that much. If we continue to draft well and sign maybe one roster player each off season from the UDFA list we can keep out cap within limits. I think it is possible to have a stud at every position but they do not have to be high priced. Hopefully we will soon be able to let high dolar vets go elsewhere with good compensation to us in return.

I think my goal for Texans is to have teams coming to us with high draft picks wanting our older vets that we have replacements for. Lose a Mario & a Barwin is there. Schaub---Yates, etc.

The 7 picks slide into $5million pool so that should be no issue.

Jackie Chiles
02-26-2012, 03:44 PM
just curious where you got this info. Most say maximum increase to apprx $124m from $120m & maybe not that much. If we continue to draft well and sign maybe one roster player each off season from the UDFA list we can keep out cap within limits. I think it is possible to have a stud at every position but they do not have to be high priced. Hopefully we will soon be able to let high dolar vets go elsewhere with good compensation to us in return.

I think my goal for Texans is to have teams coming to us with high draft picks wanting our older vets that we have replacements for. Lose a Mario & a Barwin is there. Schaub---Yates, etc.

The 7 picks slide into $5million pool so that should be no issue.

You are thinking this upcoming year, he is thinking the year after. At this time of the year "next year" can be a bit fuzzy like that. Anyways, the salary cap for 2013 is expected to take a big jump because the TV rights were renegotiated and will have a huge impact on the salary cap.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2011/12/nfl-signs-billion-dollar-deals-with-fox-nbc-and-cbs.html

badboy
02-26-2012, 03:50 PM
You are thinking this upcoming year, he is thinking the year after. At this time of the year "next year" can be a bit fuzzy like that. Anyways, the salary cap for 2013 is expected to take a big jump because the TV rights were renegotiated and will have a huge impact on the salary cap.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2011/12/nfl-signs-billion-dollar-deals-with-fox-nbc-and-cbs.htmlYeah thanks I first posted the new TV contracts in a thread some time ago.

Blake
02-29-2012, 10:14 AM
Any MW updates? We have less than 2 weeks to get a deal done. I am assuming things will heat up next week. I also am assuming that other players contracts will not be restructured unless Mario has accepted an offer.

Peppers: 3/5/2010: Signed a six-year, $84 million contract. The deal contains $42 million guaranteed, including a $6.5 million signing bonus, a first-year roster bonus of $12.5 million, and a second-year "signing" bonus of $10.5 million. Another $7.5 million is available through incentives based on sacks, Pro Bowl berths, and Defensive Player of the Year awards. Peppers can earn annual $100,000 workout bonuses in years one through five. 2012: $8.9 million, 2013: $12.9 million, 2014: $13.9 million, 2015: $16.5 million, 2016: Free Agent

My projected Mario Williams Deal: Six Years. 90 million. 45 million guaranteed.

8 million signing bonus prorated over 6 years.

DocBar
02-29-2012, 10:27 AM
Any MW updates? We have less than 2 weeks to get a deal done. I am assuming things will heat up next week. I also am assuming that other players contracts will not be restructured unless Mario has accepted an offer.

Peppers: 3/5/2010: Signed a six-year, $84 million contract. The deal contains $42 million guaranteed, including a $6.5 million signing bonus, a first-year roster bonus of $12.5 million, and a second-year "signing" bonus of $10.5 million. Another $7.5 million is available through incentives based on sacks, Pro Bowl berths, and Defensive Player of the Year awards. Peppers can earn annual $100,000 workout bonuses in years one through five. 2012: $8.9 million, 2013: $12.9 million, 2014: $13.9 million, 2015: $16.5 million, 2016: Free Agent

My projected Mario Williams Deal: Six Years. 90 million. 45 million guaranteed.

8 million signing bonus prorated over 6 years. I don't think the team even knows what the cap number will be yet, so they can't really put a solid offer forward yet. There was a report yesterday that the cap number (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/28/cap-could-be-lower-than-expected/)might be smaller than expected.

Blake
02-29-2012, 10:28 AM
I don't think the team even knows what the cap number will be yet, so they can't really put a solid offer forward yet. There was a report yesterday that the cap number (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/28/cap-could-be-lower-than-expected/)might be smaller than expected.

It has always gone up. I think its safe to assume the cap will be around 124 million.

badboy
02-29-2012, 10:36 AM
NFL trying to cut costs but hard to argue much if they are bringing cash home in Uhaul's. I expect cap to be no lower than $120m. Could get away with standing firm with 2011 cap and players would accept. Just announce it and let's go.

ChampionTexan
02-29-2012, 10:40 AM
It has always gone up. I think its safe to assume the cap will be around 124 million.

It went down from $128 Million in 2009 to $120 Million in 2011 (with the uncapped year in between).

Blake
02-29-2012, 10:44 AM
It went down from $128 Million in 2009 to $120 Million in 2011 (with the uncapped year in between).

Exactly. The uncapped year. In a normal offseason like this one it has always gone up.

ChampionTexan
02-29-2012, 10:50 AM
Exactly. The uncapped year. In a normal offseason like this one it has always gone up.

It's a new CBA, and it has already resulted in a decrease from the last cap amount. I don't think you can assume anything about the 2012 amount.

Dutchrudder
02-29-2012, 10:56 AM
My projected Mario Williams Deal: Six Years. 90 million. 45 million guaranteed.

8 million signing bonus prorated over 6 years.

Sounds about right, but is that the Texans' offer, or what he will get from another team?

I don't think the Texans can afford that much if they plan on keeping other guys. I would like to see the Texans do something unconventional to compete with those type of deals like offer 6 years, 54 million, fully guaranteed or something like that. 9 million a year is a nice chunk of change.

Blake
02-29-2012, 11:33 AM
Sounds about right, but is that the Texans' offer, or what he will get from another team?

I don't think the Texans can afford that much if they plan on keeping other guys. I would like to see the Texans do something unconventional to compete with those type of deals like offer 6 years, 54 million, fully guaranteed or something like that. 9 million a year is a nice chunk of change.

That there my friend is the 90 million dollar question right there. Personally I think they will find the cap space to get Mario signed even if it means we lose Brown or Barwin next year. I think they feel we are a better team with Mario and Brown than Barwin and Brown. And in the 2012 season we will have all of them.

:trophy:

Blake
02-29-2012, 11:35 AM
It's a new CBA, and it has already resulted in a decrease from the last cap amount. I don't think you can assume anything about the 2012 amount.

I dont get your logic. The cap was decreased due to the new CBA being put into place as a starting off point. It will only go up from here. Unless they are putting in a new CBA again this year that I am unaware of.

Mr teX
02-29-2012, 12:23 PM
That there my friend is the 90 million dollar question right there. Personally I think they will find the cap space to get Mario signed even if it means we lose Brown or Barwin next year. I think they feel we are a better team with Mario and Brown than Barwin and Brown. And in the 2012 season we will have all of them.

:trophy:

eh.....getting by with mario or Barwin...i agree. Duane Brown.........not so much. I think they feel they have a perennial pro bowler in Brown & if the get something done with Foster this year..Brown, not Barwin becomes the priority in 2013.

But i'm selfish, i want to keep all these guys that are coming up in FA this year & next. The only guy i wouldn't feel too broken up about losing is maybe Briesel b/c of his injury history. He's missed a total 21 games in 3 different years due to injury. 11 games in 09 with a foot injury (IR)....basically 7 games in 2010 with a shoulder issue (IR) & 3 in 2011 with a broken twig.

redwhiteblue
02-29-2012, 02:06 PM
a mario supporter
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/18601/free-agent-hype-chronicles-mario-williams

redwhiteblue
02-29-2012, 02:37 PM
Has Rick Smith or anyone in the front office explained why they didn't try to extend Mario's contract before the start of last season?

Blake
02-29-2012, 02:40 PM
Has Rick Smith or anyone in the front office explained why they didn't try to extend Mario's contract before the start of last season?

You mean that time when we were switching defensive schemes?

I dont recall Rick saying anything about it. Hell, maybe Mario didnt even consider an extension with a team running a new scheme.

gafftop
02-29-2012, 02:42 PM
At this time I would tell Mario that he owes it to himself to test FA. He is going to do it anyway. Just tell him to let them talk to him before he signs. Then go about signing up their priorities. Then again I am not sure how much talk goes on about offers for FA before the official date arrives. If he finds out he is not as highly sought after as thought then the Texans MAY have a chance.

Just my opinion.

I really don't think Mario will be a Texan next year based on all the circumstances. Of course I felt that 10 months ago and my feeling have not changed.

Still upset that they will get nothing but cap space when he is gone.

Mr teX
02-29-2012, 02:49 PM
a mario supporter
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/18601/free-agent-hype-chronicles-mario-williams

definitely a fluff piece....he overplayed his hand a bit though.

LikeMike
02-29-2012, 04:13 PM
Still upset that they will get nothing but cap space when he is gone.

Hmm... since we won`t be able to sign any FAs, shouldn`t we at least get a compensation pick (and with Marios value probably a 3d rounder)?

I don`t know much about the cap and what all the possibilities are. What I do know: don`t let a player like Mario walk - a player that most teams in the NFL would love to habe. Do everything you can to sign him to an extension - and if you feel like you don`t need him, trade him and get at least a couple of high draft picks in return.

Mr teX
02-29-2012, 04:24 PM
At this time I would tell Mario that he owes it to himself to test FA. He is going to do it anyway. Just tell him to let them talk to him before he signs. Then go about signing up their priorities. Then again I am not sure how much talk goes on about offers for FA before the official date arrives. If he finds out he is not as highly sought after as thought then the Texans MAY have a chance.

Just my opinion.

I really don't think Mario will be a Texan next year based on all the circumstances. Of course I felt that 10 months ago and my feeling have not changed. Still upset that they will get nothing but cap space when he is gone.

Of course everyone also expected Arian to be a hold out at the beginning of this year...& he showed up on time & balled out so......you never know.

redwhiteblue
02-29-2012, 05:02 PM
In the past three weeks the Steelers trimmed $32.91 from their payroll by restructuring and cutting Hines Ward ($3million). I think the Texans can find a way to keep they players they want to keep

thunderkyss
02-29-2012, 06:06 PM
Has Rick Smith or anyone in the front office explained why they didn't try to extend Mario's contract before the start of last season?

I don't know if that would have made any difference.

Listening to 790 on the way home (Charlie Palilo; I think), he says the Texans have $7M of cap space, with the current 2012 contracts. Even if they had extended Mario last year, there's no way he would have a cap number less than $7M.

We'd still have work to do to sign Foster & Myers.

I don't know how we got our cap so screwed up, we don't have a team full of "big money guys" we'll we do, but they aren't getting big money.

Lucky
02-29-2012, 06:18 PM
Hmm... since we won`t be able to sign any FAs, shouldn`t we at least get a compensation pickIf the Texans lose more free agents than sign, there will be compensation picks. If they sign as many (or more) free agents than they lose, they get no compensation picks.


Listening to 790 on the way home (Charlie Palilo; I think), he says the Texans have $7M of cap space, with the current 2012 contracts.
That doesn't make much sense, considering Williams' $17 million in 2011 is coming off the books in 2012.

TEXANRED
02-29-2012, 06:34 PM
I say sign him.

ckhouston
03-01-2012, 07:35 PM
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/18601/free-agent-hype-chronicles-mario-williams

There you have it.

IDEXAN
03-03-2012, 10:59 AM
ESPN's John Clayton reports that teams within the NFC West believe that the Seattle Seahawks will make a serious run at Texans OLB Mario Williams.

Head coach Pete Carroll suggested that the team does plan on pursuing some of the best available defensive ends in this free agent market.


http://nfltraderumors.co/seahawks-planning-on-pursuing-mario-williams/
*********************
I'm hopin the big boy goes there, and not some place a lot closer like maybe
Jacksonville ?

Lucky
03-03-2012, 01:05 PM
I'm hopin the big boy goes there, and not some place a lot closer like maybe
Jacksonville ?
Williams isn't going to a losing team like Seattle or Jacksonville. Nor Buffalo. If he doesn't get a really big offer from a playoff team (Atlanta? New England?), Mario will be back with the Texans.

Ryan
03-03-2012, 01:39 PM
Williams isn't going to a losing team like Seattle or Jacksonville. Nor Buffalo. If he doesn't get a really big offer from a playoff team (Atlanta? New England?), Mario will be back with the Texans.


Well we'll definitely find out what his true priority is this offseason.

dalemurphy
03-03-2012, 02:04 PM
Williams isn't going to a losing team like Seattle or Jacksonville. Nor Buffalo. If he doesn't get a really big offer from a playoff team (Atlanta? New England?), Mario will be back with the Texans.

If Mario doesn't sign with the Texans before free agency, he's not coming back. If the Texans don't sign him, they will be busy re-signing there guys and won't have room for him. He's gone on the 13th, unless they sign him before that. As a matter of a fact, if you see the Texans signing Foster, Myers, and a couple others this week, you'll know the Texans have already turned the page on Mario. If they've determined to re-sign him, he's going to have to be the 1st or 2nd domino, I think.

False Start
03-03-2012, 02:40 PM
Well we'll definitely find out what his true priority is this offseason.

Yep. If he signs with a crappy team, it will prove its all about the money. I have a feeling that it might just happen.

Lucky
03-03-2012, 03:05 PM
If Mario doesn't sign with the Texans before free agency, he's not coming back.
I agree with this. But, let's not be naive. Mario's agent will know how much $$$ is out there and from whom before the bell sounds on free agency. Probably already knows. Williams will be able to make an informed decision when the Texans make an offer.

gary
03-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Seattle really is not a crappy team but they are not the best.

dalemurphy
03-04-2012, 07:31 AM
I agree with this. But, let's not be naive. Mario's agent will know how much $$$ is out there and from whom before the bell sounds on free agency. Probably already knows. Williams will be able to make an informed decision when the Texans make an offer.

I'm sure you're right. My point, though, is that the Texans will have moved on before March 13. My guess is that if they are trying to sign him they must do that first so they can plan the rest of their off-season. Given that it's now only 8 days until free agency, if it doesn't happen in the next couple days, I don't think it will. The Texans have to get moving on Foster, Myers, and company.

Lucky
03-04-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm sure you're right. My point, though, is that the Texans will have moved on before March 13. My guess is that if they are trying to sign him they must do that first so they can plan the rest of their off-season.
I don't know how the order of signing would play out. Which puts me in the same group as everyone else. Some guys may have to re-structure. Some guys may have to agree, so that the Texans know exactly what they have to offer. I don't know. You don't know. No one not on the Texans really knows.

Wolf
03-04-2012, 11:57 AM
Alan's blog
Cowboys, Patriots, Seahawks named as possible destinations for Mario Williams
In his column NFP Sunday Blitz, Dan Pompei reports that speculation around the league has the Cowboys and Patriots as interested parties in the event Mario Williams becomes a free agent on March 13.

"The Cowboys could use Williams in tandem with DeMarcus Ware in what would be the best pair of pass rushers in the NFL," Pompei wrote. "Problem? Paying Williams more than Ware might not go over well in the locker room. As for the Patriots, signing Williams would be out of character, but they need to do something dramatic to help their defense. There is no move any team could make that would help a defense more."

Pompei is quick to caveat his comments with a 'sheer speculation' tag.

Seattle is another team that will pursue Williams according to ESPN's John Clayton.



http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/cowboys-patriots-seahawks-named-as-possible-destinations-for-mario-williams

IDEXAN
03-04-2012, 12:04 PM
I'm hearing that the Jags are a likely destination for Mario because of their huge hunk of free-cap space and a new owner who wants to land a big-name FA to excite the fan base. Plus they are a 4-3 team which lets Mario play at DE, his "natural position". I will be very surprised if Mario goes to any 3-4 team.
I sure hope it doesn't work out that way because that would make an already strong defense we see twice a year even more formidable.

ckhouston
03-04-2012, 12:11 PM
I'm hearing that the Jags are a likely destination for Mario because of their huge hunk of free-cap space and a new owner who wants to land a big-name FA to excite the fan base. Plus they are a 4-3 team which lets Mario play at DE, his "natural position". I will be very surprised if Mario goes to any 3-4 team.
I sure hope it doesn't work out that way because that would make an already strong defense we see twice a year even more formidable.

If Mario goes to a 4-3 team he will end up with solid but not legendary numbers. If he stays here ... with Wade ... in the 3-4, he could go down as one of the best ever. Deacon Jones, who would hold the sack record hands down if they kept that stat back then said as much himself. I really hope he stays and we can figure out how to keep this teams core intact. I feel we can take the crown from those Bears and Ravens teams as best defense ever, and think we can do it by such a margin it wont even be debated. Go Texans! :fans:

ChampionTexan
03-04-2012, 12:14 PM
I'm hearing that the Jags are a likely destination for Mario because of their huge hunk of free-cap space and a new owner who wants to land a big-name FA to excite the fan base. Plus they are a 4-3 team which lets Mario play at DE, his "natural position". I will be very surprised if Mario goes to any 3-4 team.
I sure hope it doesn't work out that way because that would make an already strong defense we see twice a year even more formidable.

Likely? BS.

Carr Bombed
03-04-2012, 12:19 PM
Likely? BS.

Yeah I agree.. Mario is not going to the Jags. The dude likes money I'm sure, but the Jags aren't going to offer anything much higher than another team would (PLENTY of teams have a lot of cap space) and the Jags have a QB who's going to drag that team down for the foreseeable future. The team that Mario goes to will be a team that can offer him big bucks, but a team that can also compete. The Jags had a very good defense last year and still finished with the 7th pick in the draft, I'm pretty sure Mario realizes that as well. He's not going to Jacksonville.

IDEXAN
03-04-2012, 01:47 PM
Yeah I agree.. Mario is not going to the Jags. The dude likes money I'm sure, but the Jags aren't going to offer anything much higher than another team would (PLENTY of teams have a lot of cap space) and the Jags have a QB who's going to drag that team down for the foreseeable future. The team that Mario goes to will be a team that can offer him big bucks, but a team that can also compete. The Jags had a very good defense last year and still finished with the 7th pick in the draft, I'm pretty sure Mario realizes that as well. He's not going to Jacksonville.
Mario's list of priorities are but 2: (A) record or near-record compensation for
an NFL defensive player, (B) serious playoff contender, and he will compromise on "B" way before he compromises on "A", promise. That's why he's going to a Jacksonville or a Seattle before he returns to Houston.
Actually I don't even want the guy back for what it would cost us, and since the opening bid is gonna be atleast 40 M (guaranteed money), I say let him walk.

Lucky
03-04-2012, 03:22 PM
I'm hearing that the Jags are a likely destination for Mario because of their huge hunk of free-cap space and a new owner who wants to land a big-name FA to excite the fan base. Plus they are a 4-3 team which lets Mario play at DE, his "natural position". I will be very surprised if Mario goes to any 3-4 team.
First, the Jags have a 0.0001% chance at Williams. They have better shot at Manning. Second, why wouldn't Mario go to another 3-4 team? He was loving the 3-4 prior to his injury, on pace for a personal best sack total.

Mario's list of priorities are but 2: (A) record or near-record compensation for
an NFL defensive player...
You're pulling that completely out of your arse. Williams has negotiated one contract to date. And he quickly agreed to that deal once presented to him. He has banked over $50 million in his career to date. If any defender doesn'y have to go for the $$$, it's Mario Williams.

badboy
03-04-2012, 07:27 PM
Mario's list of priorities are but 2: (A) record or near-record compensation for
an NFL defensive player, (B) serious playoff contender, and he will compromise on "B" way before he compromises on "A", promise. That's why he's going to a Jacksonville or a Seattle before he returns to Houston.
Actually I don't even want the guy back for what it would cost us, and since the opening bid is gonna be atleast 40 M (guaranteed money), I say let him walk.Do you have anything to base this on other than your own opinion? Facts show the opposite. He was the first #1 NFL selection to not take an upfront bonus. I have seen nothing that indicates Mario is in NFL for the money. Let's wait to see what happens, then clobber him if he runs for the dough.

GP
03-04-2012, 08:35 PM
What if the BROWNS landed Mario and then traded up to grab RG3?

Talk about some big news if THAT happened!

I just don't think all this jazz about how it's Pats or Seahawks is the right speculation. The Browns are my surprise team to land Mario Williams.

Bucs and Rams also have a lot of cap space to go after a guy like Mario. And Buffalo too. But I think the Browns do this, and then trade up to grab RG3.

Carr Bombed
03-04-2012, 08:47 PM
Mario's list of priorities are but 2: (A) record or near-record compensation for
an NFL defensive player, (B) serious playoff contender, and he will compromise on "B" way before he compromises on "A", promise. That's why he's going to a Jacksonville or a Seattle before he returns to Houston.
Actually I don't even want the guy back for what it would cost us, and since the opening bid is gonna be atleast 40 M (guaranteed money), I say let him walk.

Are you his agent? The guy clearly stated that he's already made bank by being the first ovrl pick and wants to join a winning atmosphere so right off the bat you have option A and B reversed. He's NOT GOING TO JACKSONVILLE... and teams like that aren't even on his radar when WINNING TEAMS can and are willing to offer the same type of contracts.

Seriously.. tell us, how did you even come up with option A and B and what came out of Mario's mouth that led you to think that? There's winning teams out there that can make him the highest paid defender in NFL history and this is even after the guy flat out said that's not what he's shooting for.

A team like Jacksonville has about the same amount of odds of coming to contract terms with Mario Williams as I do reaching "indecent proposal like" contract terms with Brady and Gisele Bundchen... It simply isn't going to happen.

badboy
03-04-2012, 08:55 PM
What if the BROWNS landed Mario and then traded up to grab RG3?

Talk about some big news if THAT happened!

I just don't think all this jazz about how it's Pats or Seahawks is the right speculation. The Browns are my surprise team to land Mario Williams.

Bucs and Rams also have a lot of cap space to go after a guy like Mario. And Buffalo too. But I think the Browns do this, and then trade up to grab RG3.what if Cleveland gets RG3 without giving up their second 1st round? They offer more than Washington and St Louis grabs it? Cleveland selects RG3 & with second pick get either Floyd or Wright + Mario.

GP
03-04-2012, 08:59 PM
what if Cleveland gets RG3 without giving up their second 1st round? They offer more than Washington and St Louis grabs it? Cleveland selects RG3 & with second pick get either Floyd or Wright + Mario.

Remember when the Browns got goofy and traded back into the 1st round? I think they had selected Hillis and then got Brady Quinn or some such thing like that. The analysts were going goo-goo gaga over the move. They were the toast of the NFL Draft that year.

I think they have the balls to try that again. The fan base is rabid, literally, since they are dawgs. That place would be ROCKING on Sundays if they had a better QB who was electric with his arm and his feet, and had Mario to lead the defense, and like you said...landed Michael Floyd or Kendall Wright.

That changes the Browns. Instantly.

Dutchrudder
03-04-2012, 09:05 PM
What if the BROWNS landed Mario and then traded up to grab RG3?

Talk about some big news if THAT happened!

I just don't think all this jazz about how it's Pats or Seahawks is the right speculation. The Browns are my surprise team to land Mario Williams.

Bucs and Rams also have a lot of cap space to go after a guy like Mario. And Buffalo too. But I think the Browns do this, and then trade up to grab RG3.

Plenty of Browns fans want to land Mario. They play a 4-3 defense and have a need for a pass rushing DE. He would fit perfectly in there and would complete a pretty good D-line. Problem is money though, I don't think the Browns have a lot to spend in free agency, but they might be able to pull it off. There are some players they could cut to save some cap room for 2012 and offer Mario a 100 million dollar deal. If Mario goes anywhere, I hope it's Cleveland.

badboy
03-04-2012, 09:37 PM
Cleveland would get a minute of PR time also and the owner would eat that up.

WOuld be nice if we could get their second pick first round in a sign and trade for Mario..
Not sure if Mario would want to go there even with RG3.

CretorFrigg
03-04-2012, 10:48 PM
I'm in the DFW area watching the local sports news right now, and they're excited about taking Mario Williams and talking about how good they'd be with Williams playing along side Demarcus Williams. It's making me sick.

Lucky
03-04-2012, 11:34 PM
The Browns are my surprise team to land Mario Williams.
That would be quite the surprise. Cleveland. Buffalo. Jacksonville. Seattle. Add Cincy why don't you, and you've got the armpits of the NFL. Williams isn't going to any of these teams.

This Dallas rumor scares me. How do they have the cap room? Please, not the Cowgirls, Mario.

ThaShark316
03-04-2012, 11:44 PM
Hope he goes to DAL. ****, anywhere in the NFC is great if he isn't back here.

"Don't go to Dallas!!" but go to CLE, BUF, OAK, NE???? Losing y'all minds. The hell with that "rivalry" that doesn't even exist.

dalemurphy
03-05-2012, 12:02 AM
That would be quite the surprise. Cleveland. Buffalo. Jacksonville. Seattle. Add Cincy why don't you, and you've got the armpits of the NFL. Williams isn't going to any of these teams.

This Dallas rumor scares me. How do they have the cap room? Please, not the Cowgirls, Mario.

Dallas makes perfect sense. It follows Jerrah's line of thinking. All their problems could be saved if they could just acquire one more star player. Yeah, good luck with that.

I hate the Cowboys and love the Texans. I find this possibility to be a perfect fit. Go get him, Jerry!

TheDream34
03-05-2012, 02:05 AM
Hope he goes to DAL. ****, anywhere in the NFC is great if he isn't back here.

"Don't go to Dallas!!" but go to CLE, BUF, OAK, NE???? Losing y'all minds. The hell with that "rivalry" that doesn't even exist.

THANK YOU!!! I've been saying this for years, there is no rivalry between us and the Cowboys. **** let him go to Dallas instead of Jacksonville and New England, or worse, the Titans.

KA4Texan
03-05-2012, 04:03 AM
THANK YOU!!! I've been saying this for years, there is no rivalry between us and the Cowboys. **** let him go to Dallas instead of Jacksonville and New England, or worse, the Titans.

I have known there is no "real" rivalry between us and Dallas, but I cant help but think of them as a rival, cause I just flat out hate the Cowboys. (Titans the only team I hate more)

So I would hate to see him with a blue star but if it is between that and our TRUE rivals (or anyone in our conference) then yes absolutely go to Dallas.

IDEXAN
03-05-2012, 08:38 AM
Dallas makes perfect sense. It follows Jerrah's line of thinking. All their problems could be saved if they could just acquire one more star player. Yeah, good luck with that.

I hate the Cowboys and love the Texans. I find this possibility to be a perfect fit. Go get him, Jerry!
Dallas is a 3-4 team, and Mario will not go to a 3-4 team, besides they can't afford both DW and Mario.

WolverineFan
03-05-2012, 08:40 AM
Dallas is a 3-4 team, and Mario will not go to a 3-4 team, besides they can't afford both DW and Mario.

This. I remember Mario saying a few weeks ago the only 3-4 team he'd sign with was Houston.

nero THE zero
03-05-2012, 08:42 AM
KFFL report:
(KFFL) The Houston Texans are weighing the idea of using the franchise tag on impending free-agent LB Mario Williams after the team agreed to a deal with RB Arian Foster.

No source cited, though. I can't imagine this being a real possibility, though it does confirm what they've been saying regarding Mario being a priority.

amazing80
03-05-2012, 08:43 AM
KFFL report:


No source cited, though. I can't imagine this being a real possibility, though it does confirm what they've been saying regarding Mario being a priority.

I doubt this is true, if we did it would mean bye bye 22 plus million of the 30 or so million available.....that would be a terrible idea

Thorn
03-05-2012, 08:49 AM
I can't believe they'd tag Mario. They'll have very little money left to do anything else. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

gafftop
03-05-2012, 08:52 AM
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/18601/free-agent-hype-chronicles-mario-williams

There you have it.

These articles were written as ultimate HYPE. In other words ultimate BS.

Disclaimer: This article is part of my series on free agency from the perspective of the agent, where I prepare Scott Boras-esque "books" that detail where each player stands in the marketplace and why he deserves as much of your team's money as possible. Normally, my goal is to use statistics and historical context to present the most accurate depiction of football that I can, but in this series, all I want to do is convince you to spend money on the player in question. As a result, I may include information or suggest comparisons that I don't necessarily agree with, just as an agent might try to play up his clients' strengths. Keep that in mind when you're reading. (For more on this, check out the Monday piece on Mike Wallace that started this series, and the subsequent articles covering Packers quarterback Matt Flynn and Texans pass-rusher Mario Williams.)

WolverineFan
03-05-2012, 08:53 AM
KFFL report:


No source cited, though. I can't imagine this being a real possibility, though it does confirm what they've been saying regarding Mario being a priority.

There should be zero doubt that Mario is a top priority, but they won't franchise him. Can't afford to do that with other FA's to sign.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 09:01 AM
I doubt this is true, if we did it would mean bye bye 22 plus million of the 30 or so million available.....that would be a terrible idea

I can't believe they'd tag Mario. They'll have very little money left to do anything else. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

if they did, it would only be a stopgap in order to either sign him to a longterm deal at a reduced cap hit or organise a trade so that at least we'll get something for him. if that means myers has to wait until the 13th to 'officially' agree a deal, so be it

gafftop
03-05-2012, 09:16 AM
At this time I would tell Mario that he owes it to himself to test FA. He is going to do it anyway. Just tell him to let them talk to him before he signs. Then go about signing up their priorities. Then again I am not sure how much talk goes on about offers for FA before the official date arrives. If he finds out he is not as highly sought after as thought then the Texans MAY have a chance.

Just my opinion.

I really don't think Mario will be a Texan next year based on all the circumstances. Of course I felt that 10 months ago and my feeling have not changed.

Still upset that they will get nothing but cap space when he is gone.

Glad to see the Texans know their prioritites.
1.Foster Done
2. Myers
3.

Mario is not on the list because the Texans can't realistically expect to get a decision from him at this time.

Glad to see the Texans acting this year like they did last with Joseph and Manning not waiting for Aso.

Only way Texans resign Mario is if after testing FA Mario finds he is not highly sought after after all. I think someone will give him crazy money though.

DocBar
03-05-2012, 09:16 AM
if they did, it would only be a stopgap in order to either sign him to a longterm deal at a reduced cap hit or organise a trade so that at least we'll get something for him. if that means myers has to wait until the 13th to 'officially' agree a deal, so be itTagging him for a sign and trade would be risky, imo. Why would another team want to give up a draft pick/picks for him when they could just let the Texans stew in their own stupidity for tagging him?
I still think the best route is to offer MW a "best we can do now or later" offer and let the chips fall where they may.
EDIT: From PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/no-serious-discussions-between-texans-mario-williams/). No serious discussions with Mario Williams.

DocBar
03-05-2012, 09:25 AM
No serious discussions between the Texans and Mario Williams yet. (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/no-serious-discussions-between-texans-mario-williams/)

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 09:27 AM
Mario is not on the list because the Texans can't realistically expect to get a decision from him at this time.

Only way Texans resign Mario is if after testing FA Mario finds he is not highly sought after after all. I think someone will give him crazy money though.

If I were the Texans, I wouldn't even give him that long. We've got a lot of work to do & don't have time to wait.

Make him a "fair" deal (whatever Rick Smith thinks is fair) before March 13. If he doesn't take it, let him walk & don't expect him to come back. I'd make sure Mario understands the "don't expect him to come back" part. "Here's my offer, take it or leave it."

thunderkyss
03-05-2012, 09:33 AM
No serious discussions between the Texans and Mario Williams yet. (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/no-serious-discussions-between-texans-mario-williams/)

As of last Tuesday, the Texans had $118.9 in 2012 salary-cap commitments, which puts them close to the expected ceiling of $120 million or so.

I'm just not understanding how this is even possible. It just doesn't add up unless one of our players is going to count $16M+ against the cap in 2012.

Rey
03-05-2012, 09:34 AM
No serious discussions between the Texans and Mario Williams yet. (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/no-serious-discussions-between-texans-mario-williams/)

They then go on to say that not signing Mario leaves the door open to sign Peyton Manning...

I don't understand their logic though unless they are saying we'd have Schaub and Manning on the roster...

1) I don't think we'll sign Peyton

2) If we did, Schaub would not be here I don't think

3) If you get rid of Schaubs cap hit via trade or whatever, you should be able to afford Manning and Mario


If I had to choose between Manning (a healthy Manning) and Mario, I'm taking Manning...

The Texans have more information to make these decisions than we do though, so hopefully they are doing their homework...

Dutchrudder
03-05-2012, 09:42 AM
I'm just not understanding how this is even possible. It just doesn't add up unless one of our players is going to count $16M+ against the cap in 2012.

It's entirely possible. The Chiefs reportedly had 25 million in incentives paid for the 2011 season. Between unknown incentives, salary increases and contract restructuring, they could easily have 20+ million in obligations we don't know about.

Maddict5
03-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Tagging him for a sign and trade would be risky, imo. Why would another team want to give up a draft pick/picks for him when they could just let the Texans stew in their own stupidity for tagging him?
I still think the best route is to offer MW a "best we can do now or later" offer and let the chips fall where they may.
EDIT: From PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/05/no-serious-discussions-between-texans-mario-williams/). No serious discussions with Mario Williams.

because if an elite player in his prime is available for a pretty modest price draft pick wise (eg a 1st or 2nd rounder) there will be plenty of teams willing to offer that up esp one of the lesser desirable destinations who wouldnt have the same shot at him in an open market free agency

gafftop
03-05-2012, 09:47 AM
If I were the Texans, I wouldn't even give him that long. We've got a lot of work to do & don't have time to wait.

Make him a "fair" deal (whatever Rick Smith thinks is fair) before March 13. If he doesn't take it, let him walk & don't expect him to come back. I'd make sure Mario understands the "don't expect him to come back" part. "Here's my offer, take it or leave it."

Thunder,

I don't think they are giving him ANY time. It is already OVER on Mario and probably has been for quite a while.

Rick's "fair" would have been an insult to the agent and maybe mario. Why even make one. I think they let him walk awhile ago.

The writing was on the wall before the season even started last year I think. I think the FO screwed the pooch last year by not trading him. Just think we might have had another first or a couple more seconds in the upcoming draft.

At least we have Foster.

Rey
03-05-2012, 09:50 AM
Tagging him for a sign and trade would be risky, imo. Why would another team want to give up a draft pick/picks for him when they could just let the Texans stew in their own stupidity for tagging him?

????

Because they aren't hormonal, spiteful teeanagers?

Why would a team that is not even in our division or evne on our schedule or in our conference pass up an opprotunity to get better just out of spite?

DonnyMost
03-05-2012, 09:52 AM
Unless that 22MM number is bogus and more like 16MM, we're not seriously considering franchising Mario.

It sucks his contract was so backloaded, because it completely undercut the idea of franchising him from the start, which is going to make negotiations that much harder for the Texans.

I hope he doesn't go, but if he does, it will be because some team threw a ridiculous amount of upfront money at him. Meanwhile, best we can do is another backloaded deal like the one he signed in 2006.

drs23
03-05-2012, 10:17 AM
Are you his agent? The guy clearly stated that he's already made bank by being the first ovrl pick and wants to join a winning atmosphere so right off the bat you have option A and B reversed. He's NOT GOING TO JACKSONVILLE... and teams like that aren't even on his radar when WINNING TEAMS can and are willing to offer the same type of contracts.

Seriously.. tell us, how did you even come up with option A and B and what came out of Mario's mouth that led you to think that? There's winning teams out there that can make him the highest paid defender in NFL history and this is even after the guy flat out said that's not what he's shooting for.

A team like Jacksonville has about the same amount of odds of coming to contract terms with Mario Williams as I do reaching "indecent proposal like" contract terms with Brady and Gisele Bundchen... It simply isn't going to happen.

Oh come on CB don't sell yourself short. I don't think you give yourself enough credit...:D

pissknocker
03-05-2012, 10:35 AM
Can an ESPN insider post up the article on Texans next move that just came out? TIA

b0ng
03-05-2012, 10:36 AM
Yeah I agree.. Mario is not going to the Jags. The dude likes money I'm sure, but the Jags aren't going to offer anything much higher than another team would (PLENTY of teams have a lot of cap space) and the Jags have a QB who's going to drag that team down for the foreseeable future. The team that Mario goes to will be a team that can offer him big bucks, but a team that can also compete. The Jags had a very good defense last year and still finished with the 7th pick in the draft, I'm pretty sure Mario realizes that as well. He's not going to Jacksonville.

I hope Mario doesn't go to the Jaguars either, but that defense would be absolutely nasty with Williams rushing the passer along with those two big**** DT's that they have. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility that the Jaguars could Dilfer their way into the playoffs as a WC if they can play defense that well. I know that they kept the defensive staff in place after JDR was unceremoniously pooped out of Jacksonville.

Carr Bombed
03-05-2012, 10:54 AM
I hope Mario doesn't go to the Jaguars either, but that defense would be absolutely nasty with Williams rushing the passer along with those two big**** DT's that they have. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility that the Jaguars could Dilfer their way into the playoffs as a WC if they can play defense that well. I know that they kept the defensive staff in place after JDR was unceremoniously pooped out of Jacksonville.

Trent Dilfer would be a HUGE upgrade over what they're currently throwing under center. Blaine Gabbert was the worst starting QB in the NFL last season. The Jags had a top 6 defense last season despite the offense being allergic to a first down. How much better would Mario really make them even if he did go there? They already had a elite defense and couldn't go anywhere. Their problem is on offense and it starts with the QB. They are a spitting image of the early era Texans. Solid defense.... bust at QB.

b0ng
03-05-2012, 10:58 AM
Trent Dilfer would be a HUGE upgrade over what they're currently throwing under center. Blaine Gabbert was the worst starting QB in the NFL last season. The Jags had a top 6 defense last season despite the offense being allergic to a first down. How much better would Mario really make them even if he did go there? They already had a elite defense and couldn't go anywhere. Their problem is on offense and it starts with the QB. They are a spitting image of the early era Texans. Solid defense.... bust at QB.

They were pretty good at everything but rushing the passer (Jeremy Mincey and the ghost of Aaron Kampmann notwithstanding). Williams would easily be able to beat 1 on 1's while most of the interior of an offensive line was dealing with their two big DT's and those LB's that they had (I thought Pouslozny played very well last year).

Just because they didn't give up a lot of yardage doesn't mean they did everything fantastic on defense.

badboy
03-05-2012, 11:00 AM
I'm in the DFW area watching the local sports news right now, and they're excited about taking Mario Williams and talking about how good they'd be with Williams playing along side Demarcus Williams. It's making me sick.I am hoping Mario looks at the Foster deal and realizes he could sign for that and be part of a SB possible team.

Carr Bombed
03-05-2012, 11:12 AM
They were pretty good at everything but rushing the passer (Jeremy Mincey and the ghost of Aaron Kampmann notwithstanding). Williams would easily be able to beat 1 on 1's while most of the interior of an offensive line was dealing with their two big DT's and those LB's that they had (I thought Pouslozny played very well last year).

Just because they didn't give up a lot of yardage doesn't mean they did everything fantastic on defense.

They were 11th in points allowed. The point is that Mario isn't going to greatly put them over the top. That defense can play as great as they want to (and they did last season), if they can't turn numbers on the scoreboard they will continue to suck... that's where their problem lies.

Also they have one very good DT... Tyson Alualu is just another guy and some Jag fans think he hasn't lived up to his draft position. Also at only 304 pounds he isn't the behemoth that you're making him out to be. "Pot roast" is MUCH better.

Carr Bombed
03-05-2012, 11:21 AM
If we're going to talk about mario signing within the division, the team we need to be talking about is the Titans.. They have almost as much cap space as the Jags and have a owner who gets his rocks off "sticking it to Houston". They also have a offense that could do damage with a player like Mario playing on the other side. If Tenn. got Mario I'd be worried... if the Jags got him, I couldn't care less.

Texan_Bill
03-05-2012, 11:28 AM
Mario has played in Jacksonville 6 times (or at least been there 6 times). There is no way he is going to a place where there is a distinct, disgusting smell that you get blasted with from the second you step off the airplane.

b0ng
03-05-2012, 11:30 AM
They were 11th in points allowed. The point is that Mario isn't going to greatly put them over the top. That defense can play as great as they want to (and they did last season), if they can't turn numbers on the scoreboard they will continue to suck... that's where their problem lies.

Also they have one very good DT... Tyson Alualu is just another guy and some Jag fans think he hasn't lived up to his draft position. Also at only 304 pounds he isn't the behemoth that you're making him out to be. "Pot roast" is MUCH better.

Um, if the Jags get good at harassing the QB as well as shutting down the run and having an above average secondary they could easily be as good as they were in 2007. I obviously think Alualu is more above average to your "just a guy" but the rest of the stuff is pretty much the same. Put a player like Williams in there and he could be set up to shine getting the bulk of that teams sacks (again).

I too believe that Blaine Gabbert is a terrible QB by most definitions, but, I've seen terrible QB's have pretty decent seasons before (Derek Anderson, David Garrard, Kerry Collins, Matt Cassel), and with the Jags hiring a QB's coach who knows. But if he takes a step from abjectly horrible, to say, streaky and inconsistent, that might be all that team needs to turn 4 of their 2011 losses into wins.

For the record: I don't think Mario is going to Jacksonville either.

Carr Bombed
03-05-2012, 11:39 AM
Um, if the Jags get good at harassing the QB as well as shutting down the run and having an above average secondary they could easily be as good as they were in 2007. I obviously think Alualu is more above average to your "just a guy" but the rest of the stuff is pretty much the same. Put a player like Williams in there and he could be set up to shine getting the bulk of that teams sacks (again).

I too believe that Blaine Gabbert is a terrible QB by most definitions, but, I've seen terrible QB's have pretty decent seasons before (Derek Anderson, David Garrard, Kerry Collins, Matt Cassel), and with the Jags hiring a QB's coach who knows. But if he takes a step from abjectly horrible, to say, streaky and inconsistent, that might be all that team needs to turn 4 of their 2011 losses into wins.

The Jags were as good as they were in 2007 because David Garrard had a career year... The Jags were BETTER last year on defense than they were in 2007...infact a LOT better. They also only had 6 more sacks in 2007, so they weren't exactly killing the QB that year either.

You basically just proved my point. Mario Williams is not going to be the catalyst that launches the Jags into the playoffs even if he does sign there... which isn't going to happen, so it's not even worth discussing to start with.

and Tyson Alualu has been average at best. He's a solid player.. not a difference maker, not a sieve like Amobi was.. hence "J.A.G."

b0ng
03-05-2012, 11:51 AM
The Jags were as good as they were in 2007 because David Garrard had a career year... The Jags were BETTER last year on defense than they were in 2007...infact a LOT better. They also only had 6 more sacks in 2007, so they weren't exactly killing the QB that year either.

You basically just proved my point. Mario Williams is not going to be the catalyst that launches the Jags into the playoffs even if he does sign there... which isn't going to happen, so it's not even worth discussing to start with.

and Tyson Alualu has been average at best. He's a solid player.. not a difference maker, not a sieve like Amobi was.. hence "J.A.G."

Your point is something along the lines of Mario would have no impact on the Jaguars winning correct? When he would be an obvious significant upgrade at a position on their defense which is already really good. I think your point is very flawed in the ways that I believe adding a stud pass rusher to an already really good defense who is missing a stud pass rusher would improve them from being right outside the top 5 to being a viable candidate for best overall defense in the NFL.

In a game like football where small changes can have significant impacts in individual games I think doing something that big by itself could get the entire team to mediocre. Since they retained their defensive staff you have Mularkey is probably free to worry about the offense mostly so it's basically on him to get them the final win or two they might need to challenge for a wildcard.

Similarly I think the Titans would also be a team where the defense would go from decent to really good, so it's not like I'm just trying to lovefest the Jaguars here.

Carr Bombed
03-05-2012, 12:02 PM
Your point is something along the lines of Mario would have no impact on the Jaguars winning correct? When he would be an obvious significant upgrade at a position on their defense which is already really good. I think your point is very flawed in the ways that I believe adding a stud pass rusher to an already really good defense who is missing a stud pass rusher would improve them from being right outside the top 5 to being a viable candidate for best overall defense in the NFL.

In a game like football where small changes can have significant impacts in individual games I think doing something that big by itself could get the entire team to mediocre. Since they retained their defensive staff you have Mularkey is probably free to worry about the offense mostly so it's basically on him to get them the final win or two they might need to challenge for a wildcard.

Similarly I think the Titans would also be a team where the defense would go from decent to really good, so it's not like I'm just trying to lovefest the Jaguars here.

Well your first sentence is wrong. I never said Mario would have no impact. I said his signing wouldn't significantly change anything, he would have a impact, but in the grand scheme, not much would change. Let's look at the season where the Texans were tops in the NFL in offense, but had a craptastic defense... If we added top offensive talent to that team, would that have put us over the top? No it wouldn't and adding Mario to a team that was 6th in the league in yards allowed and 11th in points scored is not going to catapult them to the playoffs when they can't put points on the board... Just like adding top offensive talent wouldn't of put us in the playoffs when we couldn't keep points off the board.

The Titans would be the team I'd fear if they got Mario... not the Jags. They have tied their rope to a concrete block that was tossed into the Jacksonville bay for the next few seasons. However long it takes them to figure out that Gabbert is not the answer is how long they choose to hold their team back before they start grooming someone else. The Titans however already have a veteran in place (who can still play) and a young QB who I think is going to be a gamer and a thorn in our side in the near future. Mario could do damage on that team... if he wants to join the NFL's version of the "witness protection program" then he will sign with the Jags. He'd disappear there until they get a viable offense.