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thunderkyss
02-09-2012, 12:34 PM
The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time.

In casr u didn't know or don't care, u can't re-negotiate when a player is in the last yr of his deal. Continue with ur crooked posts.

Huh? Who said? That is simply not true. OR, if it is, please show or point me to that CBA rule.

It does not matter. The first quote,
The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time.

Is unsubstantiated. We have no idea if they approached Mario Williams or not. In any event, we have no idea why Mario's contract was not dealt with before the 2011 off-season.

Mario signed that rookie deal, with no signing bonus. It is very likely Mario & his agent would not budge on it for that reason.

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 12:40 PM
It does not matter. The first quote,


Is unsubstantiated. We have no idea if they approached Mario Williams or not. In any event, we have no idea why Mario's contract was not dealt with before the 2011 off-season.

Mario signed that rookie deal, with no signing bonus. It is very likely Mario & his agent would not budge on it for that reason.


The fact that nothing went public does give us an idea. You are right that it isn't ironclad proof, though.

If the Texans were determined enough to keep Mario for the long term, they could've offered him a deal he would've agreed to. Any deal would've lowered the 2011 cap hit. So, it is easy to conclude that the Texans were unwilling to commit financially in the long term at Mario's asking price. Why would they do it now? What changed to indicate he is more valuable and reliable than they thought he was? Another season on IR?

thunderkyss
02-09-2012, 12:42 PM
True we did play well without Mario. But were we playing bad defense with Mario Williams? He didn't miss the whole season.


To me, you either add something to improve, or you get worse, there is no "staying the same"

They played well without Mario, we come back next season with the same guys, chances are the league is going to pass us by.

Signing Mario is like signing the best pass rusher in FA. You're adding a good player to an already above average defense.

Break the bank to sign Mario, I'm not saying that. If we can't get him for a good cap number, I'm not interested. But until it is unequivocally proven that it is out of the question, I think it's silly to speak otherwise.

I don't care what the total value of the contract is. I don't care what his avg yearly salary is. All I care about is his cap hit for 2012 & the future.

If Rick Smith can sign him to a $3B contract & cap number not to exceed $10M for 2012...... make it so. After 2012, with the cap expected to go up considerably, $13M, $14M is probably acceptable.

I normally don't care to go out & make a big splash in FA, because you never know how that FA is going to work on your team. Look at Plax in NYJ, look at Haynesworth in New England, look at Asomugha in Philly.

Peyton in Houston? How's he going to get along with Andre? How's he going to work with Chris Myers? How's he going to work with Kubiak? We don't know.

But we know how Mario is going to work with Wade, & Connor & JJ, & Cush, etc.....

We've seen it. & everyone on that line looked better with Mario there. It took everyone of them some time to adjust (even though our turnover numbers went down without Mario) when the big fella left. You can argue.... you'd be wrong. As good as they were without Mario, they were better with him.

Rey
02-09-2012, 12:51 PM
I do not agree with not signing Mario to bring in Meachem or some other second tier WR...

That doesn't make any sense.

You keep the beast and draft a WR or two, Bring back Sanu and Mahael and let it be an open competition from 2-5/6.

cbs1507
02-09-2012, 01:48 PM
Really?

First, the Texans are not a quick-strike team like Green Bay is. When the Texans offense is playing well, it is running the ball, controlling the clock, and converting long drives for TDs. The Packers don't run the ball. They pass a lot. They also score quickly. This reality creates more posessions in a game, giving the other team 12 chances with the ball instead of 9 or 10. Also, when a team is trailing by significant points, they are much more apt to throw the ball. Throwing the ball does a couple things: it slows the game down ( an incompletion stops the clock while a two yard run soaks 40 seconds off the clock), and it creates higher yards per play. Good running teams average far less than 5 yards per carry while an average passing team averages somewhere close to 7 yards per pass attempt.

So, looking at those numbers, a team that runs the ball, on average 45 % of the time per game, may have yardage stats like the following:

120 yards rushing and 220 yards passing = 340 total yards. Assume those totals result from 25 rushes and 30 pass attempts.

Now, when that team plays the Packers and the Packers score points quickly, the team is very unlikely to rush the ball 25 times and will throw more often. Each run play that is replaced with an incomplete pass adds time to the game. So, instead of 55 plays, perhaps the team gets 65 offensive plays. Furthermore, since the team had to abandon the run, perhaps they only ran 20 times and threw the other 45... If you kept the same metric in yards per attempt, here's the yardage totals:

90 yards rushing and 325 yards passing = 415 total yards.

Also, because the team is out of its comfort zone, it is more likely to commit turnovers and an increased number of sacks. Not surprisingly, the Packers were among the league leaders in sacks and turnovers.

This works in reverse as well. Horrible offensive teams tend to rate higher in total yards allowed on defense, because their opponents tend to play more conservatively, running the ball more and protecting it. Think Jacksonville Jaguars.


Still, as I said before, the Packers defense took a significant step back this year. My point is only that the YPG stat is a silly way to rank a defense.

First of all a team with a "quick strike" offense does not mean they "quick strike" all game long. It means the have the ability to quick strike at any time. The Packers are a West Coast offense. That does not mean they are chucking up big plays all day. It's all about timing. If the big play is there then they are going to take advantage of it.

There is a flaw in your argument. You first introduced the Packers as an "explosive team" then you drew the inference that an explosive team scores quickly all game. In this league it's all about ball control, regardless of the type of offense. They may be quick strike to get out to a lead early, but all teams try to do this (some just can't). But at the end of the day the West Coast offense of the Packers uses the pass game as ball control not to score quickly all game.

So "explosive teams" does not mean they "quick strike" all game. It means they have the capability to "quick strike" Which is the case for the Texans. Matt Schaub was 3rd in passer rating for explosive plays (20 yards or more) when he went down. Sounds explosive to me...

cbs1507
02-09-2012, 02:01 PM
The fact that nothing went public does give us an idea. You are right that it isn't ironclad proof, though.

If the Texans were determined enough to keep Mario for the long term, they could've offered him a deal he would've agreed to. Any deal would've lowered the 2011 cap hit. So, it is easy to conclude that the Texans were unwilling to commit financially in the long term at Mario's asking price. Why would they do it now? What changed to indicate he is more valuable and reliable than they thought he was? Another season on IR?

Nothing went public about negotiating with Mario so we weren't interested in keeping him? Dude you draw some weak conclusions from limited information. Let's bring some FACTS to the table. FACT Mario Williams was this highest paid player on our roster last year. FACT we signed Joseph and Manning because of glaring need in the secondary. FACT we had a lockout and could not contact anybody. If we use your logic then we should not keep Arian Foster either since he did not get an extension in the offseason.

There are so many implications on why neither were sign and both incidents are closely related. First use the FACTS I presented in the previous paragraph. Then consider that we had to restructure 3 contract just to get under contract. To extend Foster we would have had to give him a pay raise for 2011, which we could not do because we had to get UNDER the cap after an uncapped 2010 season. To extend Mario he would have had to agree to take less money and prorated a bonus ove rthe extended years. We did not give him a signing bonus and he made a good portion of his contract's earning in 2011. I doubt he was going to agree to extend knowing he could get a better deal in free agency.

Now that you have the FACTS you can make a logical conclusion instead of speaking outright lies because you have your own opinion about Mario. ;)

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 02:16 PM
First of all a team with a "quick strike" offense does not mean they "quick strike" all game long. It means the have the ability to quick strike at any time. The Packers are a West Coast offense. That does not mean they are chucking up big plays all day. It's all about timing. If the big play is there then they are going to take advantage of it.

There is a flaw in your argument. You first introduced the Packers as an "explosive team" then you drew the inference that an explosive team scores quickly all game. In this league it's all about ball control, regardless of the type of offense. They may be quick strike to get out to a lead early, but all teams try to do this (some just can't). But at the end of the day the West Coast offense of the Packers uses the pass game as ball control not to score quickly all game.

So "explosive teams" does not mean they "quick strike" all game. It means they have the capability to "quick strike" Which is the case for the Texans. Matt Schaub was 3rd in passer rating for explosive plays (20 yards or more) when he went down. Sounds explosive to me...

You are simply wrong:

The Packers time of posession is average: 30:25, yet they are an elite offense according to points and yards.

The Texans rate well below Green Bay in both yards and points, but the time of posession is vastly superior: over 32 minutes.

The Packers defense ranked 19th in points allowed, 1st in turnovers, but 31st in total yards. Teams had more passing attempts against the Packers than anyone else in the league: 637 pass atempts. Teams also averaged more plays per game against Green Bay than most of the league.

Only four teams were run on less than the Packers, despite the Packers giving up a higher per rush average. This is because of a couple things: First, many rushing plays are likely draw plays when the other team is well behind. Second, teams abandon the run when they are trying to catch up. The Packers led many games by double-digit points by halftime (or earlier).

cbs1507
02-09-2012, 02:32 PM
You are simply wrong:

The Packers time of posession is average: 30:25, yet they are an elite offense according to points and yards.

The Texans rate well below Green Bay in both yards and points, but the time of posession is vastly superior: over 32 minutes.

The Packers defense ranked 19th in points allowed, 1st in turnovers, but 31st in total yards. Teams had more passing attempts against the Packers than anyone else in the league: 637 pass atempts. Teams also averaged more plays per game against Green Bay than most of the league.

Only four teams were run on less than the Packers, despite the Packers giving up a higher per rush average. This is because of a couple things: First, many rushing plays are likely draw plays when the other team is well behind. Second, teams abandon the run when they are trying to catch up. The Packers led many games by double-digit points by halftime (or earlier).
First of all I said when Matt Schaub was in the game.

Secondly your original argument was that their defense was bad because their offense was good. That's just a lie. And you're proving this by admitting that their defense was on the field for more plays than most teams. I'll go even further to inform you that their defense was on the field for more play than their offense.

At the end of the day none of the stats you provided suggest that the Packers played the game to get more possessions, which is what your initial argument stated. You even proved that they got less possessions than most teams and their defense. So this all goes back to what I said about how Aaron Rodgers was able to cover their weaknesses.

2012Champs
02-09-2012, 02:54 PM
First of all I said when Matt Schaub was in the game.

Secondly your original argument was that their defense was bad because their offense was good. That's just a lie. And you're proving this by admitting that their defense was on the field for more plays than most teams. I'll go even further to inform you that their defense was on the field for more play than their offense.

At the end of the day none of the stats you provided suggest that the Packers played the game to get more possessions, which is what your initial argument stated. You even proved that they got less possessions than most teams and their defense. So this all goes back to what I said about how Aaron Rodgers was able to cover their weaknesses.



Im pretty sure I follow his point. I dont think our offense of years past would have been posting the numbers it was Schaub anyways on the passing side if our D wasnt so bad. Being behind all the time leads to your offense having to try and make big plays and scoring empty points. On the flip if your offense is always killing it your defense is going to have other teams doing exactly what we have done in years past. Maybe Ive oversimplified his point though

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 04:38 PM
First of all I said when Matt Schaub was in the game.

Secondly your original argument was that their defense was bad because their offense was good. That's just a lie. And you're proving this by admitting that their defense was on the field for more plays than most teams. I'll go even further to inform you that their defense was on the field for more play than their offense.

At the end of the day none of the stats you provided suggest that the Packers played the game to get more possessions, which is what your initial argument stated. You even proved that they got less possessions than most teams and their defense. So this all goes back to what I said about how Aaron Rodgers was able to cover their weaknesses.


No lies. No inconsistencies. When a game has more scores, more passes and fewer runs, their are more plays in that game. When teams must score 30+ points to win, they will throw the ball more often and run the ball less. The net effect of this is more yards and more plays per game, because the incompletions do not allow the clock to run and the completions are (on average) 5 yards more per completion than a rush is.

I never said Green Bay's defense was bad because their offense is good. That you would quote me saying that shows an inability to comprehend or it is an effort to distract from the argument I made.

I said that good offenses (particularly, explosive and pass-oriented ones) will tend to score lower in the category of yards allowed due to a number of factors. Quoting the Packers as the 31st or 32nd defense in the league is referencing only that single statistics. Based on points, they would be 19th in the league. Based on turnovers, they would be one of the top defenses in the NFL.

Here's an example:

Indy ranked 24th in Yards allowed this year.
GB ranked 32nd in Yards allowed. Do you think Indy had the better defense?:

No. Here's why:

Teams averaged 7.8 yards per pass against Indy. Teams averaged the identical number against Green Bay. However, teams ran the ball 50 times more than they threw it against Indy. Conversely, teams threw the ball on Green Bay 250 times more than they ran it. Considering the difference in yards per pass to yards per rush, that one factor alone accounts for close to a 1000 yards difference in total yards.

Meanwhile, turnovers aren't accounted for and Green Bay was among the leaders.

While the Green Bay defense struggled this year, it was clearly better than Indy. However, the circumstances resulting from GB's great offense and Indy's horrible offense skews YPG stats.

steelbtexan
02-09-2012, 05:08 PM
To me, you either add something to improve, or you get worse, there is no "staying the same"

They played well without Mario, we come back next season with the same guys, chances are the league is going to pass us by.

Signing Mario is like signing the best pass rusher in FA. You're adding a good player to an already above average defense.

Break the bank to sign Mario, I'm not saying that. If we can't get him for a good cap number, I'm not interested. But until it is unequivocally proven that it is out of the question, I think it's silly to speak otherwise.

I don't care what the total value of the contract is. I don't care what his avg yearly salary is. All I care about is his cap hit for 2012 & the future.

If Rick Smith can sign him to a $3B contract & cap number not to exceed $10M for 2012...... make it so. After 2012, with the cap expected to go up considerably, $13M, $14M is probably acceptable.

I normally don't care to go out & make a big splash in FA, because you never know how that FA is going to work on your team. Look at Plax in NYJ, look at Haynesworth in New England, look at Asomugha in Philly.

Peyton in Houston? How's he going to get along with Andre? How's he going to work with Chris Myers? How's he going to work with Kubiak? We don't know.

But we know how Mario is going to work with Wade, & Connor & JJ, & Cush, etc.....

We've seen it. & everyone on that line looked better with Mario there. It took everyone of them some time to adjust (even though our turnover numbers went down without Mario) when the big fella left. You can argue.... you'd be wrong. As good as they were without Mario, they were better with him.

Agreed with the if your not getting better your getting worse sentiment.

Disagree with you about the Texans being players in FA. For the 1st time ever the Texans went out and signed top tier FA's. Not suprisingly they had a great yr and made the playoffs.

If MW was agreeable to 5yrs 50 mill, 10 mill signing bonus spread out over the life of the contract I would be for re-signing MW. (Probably not going to happen) Otherwise I would let him walk.

If MW was on the Steelers and was a FA do you think the Texans would be willing to sign MW in FA? If the answer is no then the Texans shouldn't even think of bringing MW back unless it's a cap friendly deal.

Otherwise the MW fans are blinded by the 1st pick thingy and MW's untapped potential after 6 yrs. I dont blame MW fans for feeling this way. His coaches have been tryingto tap into that potential since MW's college days.

cbs1507
02-09-2012, 05:18 PM
No lies. No inconsistencies. When a game has more scores, more passes and fewer runs, their are more plays in that game. When teams must score 30+ points to win, they will throw the ball more often and run the ball less. The net effect of this is more yards and more plays per game, because the incompletions do not allow the clock to run and the completions are (on average) 5 yards more per completion than a rush is.

I never said Green Bay's defense was bad because their offense is good. That you would quote me saying that shows an inability to comprehend or it is an effort to distract from the argument I made.

I said that good offenses (particularly, explosive and pass-oriented ones) will tend to score lower in the category of yards allowed due to a number of factors. Quoting the Packers as the 31st or 32nd defense in the league is referencing only that single statistics. Based on points, they would be 19th in the league. Based on turnovers, they would be one of the top defenses in the NFL.

Here's an example:

Indy ranked 24th in Yards allowed this year.
GB ranked 32nd in Yards allowed. Do you think Indy had the better defense?:

No. Here's why:

Teams averaged 7.8 yards per pass against Indy. Teams averaged the identical number against Green Bay. However, teams ran the ball 50 times more than they threw it against Indy. Conversely, teams threw the ball on Green Bay 250 times more than they ran it. Considering the difference in yards per pass to yards per rush, that one factor alone accounts for close to a 1000 yards difference in total yards.

Meanwhile, turnovers aren't accounted for and Green Bay was among the leaders.

While the Green Bay defense struggled this year, it was clearly better than Indy. However, the circumstances resulting from GB's great offense and Indy's horrible offense skews YPG stats.
:mariopalm: Please stop while you're behind.
The Packers defense wasn't as bad as that stat indicates. Their explosive offense is a reason for their defense allowing so many yards. It also happens that the Packers were among the leaders in turnovers.
All you're doing is flip flopping to try to act like this was your argument all along. They gave up alot of yards because they had a WEAK DEFENSE. Aaron Rodgers covered up their weak defense by scoring alot of points to take pressure off them. Point blank.

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 05:21 PM
:mariopalm: Please stop while you're behind.
All you're doing is flip flopping to try to act like this was your argument all along. Aaron Rodgers covered up their weak defense by scoring alot of points to take pressure off them. Point blank.

Show me the quote!

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 05:31 PM
Nothing went public about negotiating with Mario so we weren't interested in keeping him? Dude you draw some weak conclusions from limited information. Let's bring some FACTS to the table. FACT Mario Williams was this highest paid player on our roster last year. FACT we signed Joseph and Manning because of glaring need in the secondary. FACT we had a lockout and could not contact anybody. If we use your logic then we should not keep Arian Foster either since he did not get an extension in the offseason.

There are so many implications on why neither were sign and both incidents are closely related. First use the FACTS I presented in the previous paragraph. Then consider that we had to restructure 3 contract just to get under contract. To extend Foster we would have had to give him a pay raise for 2011, which we could not do because we had to get UNDER the cap after an uncapped 2010 season. To extend Mario he would have had to agree to take less money and prorated a bonus ove rthe extended years. We did not give him a signing bonus and he made a good portion of his contract's earning in 2011. I doubt he was going to agree to extend knowing he could get a better deal in free agency.

Now that you have the FACTS you can make a logical conclusion instead of speaking outright lies because you have your own opinion about Mario. ;)


You have no idea what you are talking about! We could've extended Mario a long term contract, offering to tear up his last deal and created a new deal at 6 years and $100 million, with a $36 million signing bonus... As a result, instead of getting $18 million last year, he would have received twice that ($36 million signing bonus) + his new 2011 salary... As a result, instead of counting $18 million against the cap, he would've counted $9 or $10 million against the cap for 2011. In the end, Mario would've been richer, the Texans would've locked up a "star" player for 5 more years and the Texans could've saved $8 or $9 million on the 2011 cap. They didn't do that... Why? I'm not sure, but it is logical to conclude they were unconvinced to lock up those dollars on him.

Regarding your Foster argument: it makes no sense. How would signing Foster last season to a new deal have saved cap room? He was making almost nothing as a 3rd year UDFA. Your point has absolutely no merit. Please stop flailing in the air and take some time to understand what I'm saying. You need not agree with it but please stop misrepresenting it.

cbs1507
02-09-2012, 05:33 PM
Show me the quote!

Apparently you don't even remember what you wrote...

The Packers defense wasn't as bad as that stat indicates. Their explosive offense is a reason for their defense allowing so many yards. It also happens that the Packers were among the leaders in turnovers.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1897098&postcount=1237

The "explosive offense" was not the reason their defense gave up so many yards. The weak defense was the reason they gave so many yards.

Your Indy example is horrible. Both teams had bad defenses. But GB had Aaron Rodger and Indy had Kerry Collins, Curtis Painter and Dan Orlovsky. Sometimes teams just take the path of least resistence. Last time I checked Indy has 2 capable pass rushers that are weak against the run. Therefore teams run on Indy to beat them. GB is better against the run than Indy but for some reason they cannot stop teams from airing it out. Because they do not get pressure and sacks like they did last year (hmm..they lost Cullen Jenkins in the offseason which was my original argument).

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 05:39 PM
Apparently you don't even remember what you wrote...


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1897098&postcount=1237

The "explosive offense" was not the reason their defense gave up so many yards. The weak defense was the reason they gave so many yards.

Your Indy example is horrible. Both teams had bad defenses. But GB had Aaron Rodger and Indy had Kerry Collins, Curtis Painter and Dan Orlovsky. Sometimes teams just take the path of least resistence. Last time I checked Indy has 2 capable pass rushers that are weak against the run. Therefore teams run on Indy to beat them. GB is better against the run than Indy but for some reason they cannot stop teams from airing it out. Because they do not get pressure and sacks like they did last year (hmm..they lost Cullen Jenkins in the offseason which was my original argument).

Again, I didn't say GB defense was bad, I said it ranked poorly in Yards allowed. Can't you comprehend that I'm saying yards allowed is not a good metric for ranking defenses?

Green Bay was actually poor vs. the run but teams didn't run on them because they felt pressure to throw the ball, resulting from the Green Bay offense.

Cullen Jenkins absence certainly hurt GB. I agreed with that originally. However, you made a fallible argument when you compared Jenkins loss with the potential Mario loss...

If Mario had played most of the season then I'd be much more worried about losing him. However, the Texans defense was the best in the NFL over their final 14 games (WITHOUT MARIO). GB had Jenkins in 2010. The Texans played great without Mario in 2011. Why would losing Mario's presence on IR make the defense worse?

cbs1507
02-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Again, I didn't say GB defense was bad, I said it ranked poorly in Yards allowed. Can't you comprehend that I'm saying yards allowed is not a good metric for ranking defenses? Dude I freaking know that total yards is not the whole story. I know there other factors. But the underlying factor for a team giving up yards is because they cannot stop the other team from getting them not because they have an "explosive offense". Point blank.

Green Bay was actually poor vs. the run but teams didn't run on them because they felt pressure to throw the ball, resulting from the Green Bay offense. I know they weren't that good at run defense. Did you not get my statement about the "path of least resistance". For instance, there is a fork in the road. One path his guarded by armored cars and soldiers. The other one has a security guard . Which path do you choose? That's case with Indy and GB (and other teams). But your argument was that their defense was not really that bad.

Cullen Jenkins absence certainly hurt GB. I agreed with that originally. However, you made a fallible argument when you compared Jenkins loss with the potential Mario loss... Really I did not know we were arguing about that. I thought we said our 2 cents and left it at that. Nice try.

If Mario had played most of the season then I'd be much more worried about losing him. However, the Texans defense was the best in the NFL over their final 14 games (WITHOUT MARIO). GB had Jenkins in 2010. The Texans played great without Mario in 2011. Why would losing Mario's presence on IR make the defense worse? I honestly don't care if you are worried about Mario or not. I think we could probably do okay without him. But whoever we bring in will never match the ability and the value that Mario brought us on Sundays. Point blank. My response in bold...

leebigeztx
02-10-2012, 03:00 AM
To keep from going in circles, what would be an acceptable number for williams per yr? Given his age,position,production,and injury history. My number is 12m per yr and 36m in guaranteed money.The "G Jack" as pat kirwan likes to say is the most important in regards to doing a deal. Also, do the texans want to pay in cash[roster bonus] or credit [signing bonus]?

dalemurphy
02-10-2012, 03:47 AM
To keep from going in circles, what would be an acceptable number for williams per yr? Given his age,position,production,and injury history. My number is 12m per yr and 36m in guaranteed money.The "G Jack" as pat kirwan likes to say is the most important in regards to doing a deal. Also, do the texans want to pay in cash[roster bonus] or credit [signing bonus]?

5 years and $55 million would be the maximum I would be okay with. Whatever the method and dollar amount of the guaranteed money, I would want to be able to get out from under the contract in three years without too much cap pain... preparing for the possibility that he is physically breaking down and/or consistently not playing at a high level. So, something like this:

$25 million signing bonus:
salary:
2012- $3 mil
2013- $4 mil
2014- $5.5 mil
2015- $7.5 mil
2016- $10 mil

mussop
02-10-2012, 11:14 AM
But whoever we bring in will never match the ability and the value that Mario brought us on Sundays. Point blank.

I believe Barwin has already done that. All we need if Mario leaves is depth.

2012Champs
02-10-2012, 11:25 AM
But whoever we bring in will never match the ability and the value that Mario brought us on Sundays. Point blank.

I believe Barwin has already done that. All we need if Mario leaves is depth.



Im not sure your two statements compute.


we will never


barwin has already done that


:thinking:

badboy
02-10-2012, 12:01 PM
I think he gets his numbers from sportrac unless there is a team specific cap site like NYJetscap.com.No I have used that and Rotoworld but McClain just seems to have "inside" sources.

badboy
02-10-2012, 12:12 PM
:goodluck:

Why do most posters think its all or nothing with mario? Maybe some of you need to call sirius radio and talk to pat kirwan or gil brandt. Just in case you can't or won't,let me give you something to chew on in regards to the cap ad capspace.

Capspace is basically double what you have in terms of cap charge for a player. His salary is what counts against the cap when the contract is written. If the player is terminated before the bonus is fufilled,then that's when teams have problems.



A lot of teams have been paying more up front and less on the back. The texans could give foster his 24m guarantee in the 1st 3 yrs(8m per) and if he falls off as rbs do,they can be off the hook with a 0 cap charge.Please research because that is definitely not correct info. Cap is each year's base salary plus any "upfront" bonus prorated over contract.

Scooter
02-10-2012, 12:13 PM
But whoever we bring in will never match the ability and the value that Mario brought us on Sundays. Point blank.

I believe Barwin has already done that. All we need if Mario leaves is depth.

i havent read much lately, but i'm guessing that's a major sticking point. "barwin and reed played excellent this season so who needs mario - we can replace him with a backup from somewhere." in a wade pass rush heavy defense, nobody had 10 sacks. barwin was the top guy with 9.5 ... 4 of which coming against the epically bad jags (zero in the first meeting). will he improve next season as our focal point and the guy teams take away (teams WILL adjust)? will reed and watt not only repeat their rookie performances, but improve to match those adjustments? will we be able to find help in the draft or free agency with the offense needing support, or will we have to force something?

barwin is a stellar piece to this team, but he hasnt come close to the impact mario provides. the freedom he got with mario on the field he also received because teams shifted to antonio and a more heavily blitzing cushing. rare if ever was barwin double teamed, and reed ran freely for most of his sacks ... teams let our OLB's go to focus on the DE's with mario out. with mario in, the video is here on page one as well as atleast a couple earlier game reviews pointing out the focus mario receives. 5 sacks in 5 games among our toughest stretch as the player teams spent more time trying to take away (or paid for per the colts) ... barwin and reed combined dont do that.

if we lose mario, we will see what our sophomores plus barwin are capable of ... and i dont think it will be favorable. to make that work we'll need to blitz and become way too predictable. i'll approach this from wade's point of view and my own if designing this scheme, which i have done in a goofy sim ... it is a 1v1 defense. rush 5 against 5, trust your ILB's to work in tandem, and stick to receivers with your back turned in the secondary. all predicated on winning the front not by scheme, but by simple talent ... that's mario and cushing and watt and antonio ... brute force talent to make such simplicity work. no way wade gives that up.

not a sober post. :D

badboy
02-10-2012, 12:26 PM
But whoever we bring in will never match the ability and the value that Mario brought us on Sundays. Point blank.

I believe Barwin has already done that. All we need if Mario leaves is depth.exactly

Bulls on Parade
02-10-2012, 12:31 PM
i havent read much lately, but i'm guessing that's a major sticking point. barwin and reed played excellent this season so who needs mario. in a wade pass rush heavy defense, nobody had 10 sacks. barwin was the top guy with 9.5 ... 4 of which coming against the epically bad jags (zero in the first meeting). :D
I believe Mario Williams can rack up 15-20 sacks easy in Wade Phillips' defense. He was starting to get on a nice roll right before his season-ending injury. What did he have, like five sacks in five games -- that alone would be a 16-sack average if he had played a full season. I know he had three sacks in his last two games played this past season and he's been known to get them in bunches (2-3 any given game).

The guy is a monster and needs a chance to flourish alongside Wade Phillips. There's a reason Hall of Famer Bruce Smith was licking his chops and giving Mario Williams a lot of high praise last off-season, and talking about his great potential finally coming out with a coach like Wade Phillips. Even a legend like Bruce Smith was comparing himself to Mario Williams.

Brooks Reed is an excellent young player but he's no Mario Williams. Opposing offenses don't crap their pants and have to game plan for him all week long. People assume the Texans defense is better without Mario Williams because of how they played without him. I'm telling you they would have been historically good, on par with the 2000 Ravens and 1985 Bears with him on the field. And that's why I'm so damn excied about 2012. This defense is going to be something special. Something you only see every 12 to 15 years.

Super Mario will be a Texan when they hoist that Lombardi Trophy at the Superdome next year. That much I can tell you. People need to start embracing the man and stop talking all of this gibberish about him leaving. It's a bunch of hogwash to me.

Scooter
02-10-2012, 01:04 PM
if mario plays 16 games at OLB in a wade phillips defense, he'll have atleast 17 sacks. dont bother quoting, i'll claim 20 by preseason. given an extended time to get healthy along with a real camp, i think he's the bruce smith / demarcus ware hybrid that wade could only imagine (something i whiffed on entirely before this season started). mario's injuries have been more muscle related as far as i can remember (shoulder, foot, pectoral, groin). this season being used to rehab as well as having a full supervised training camp unlike last year, this should be his best offseason. with wade returning to a #2 pass defense, starting OLB of the houston texans is arguably the most highly coveted defensive position in football. mario would be insane to miss that chance.

if he wants fat albert money, he's too dumb to keep. if he wants something in the neighborhood of harrison, i think we can work it even with our other obligations. 6 year, 60mil - 20mil guaranteed and 10mil signing bonus.

Trail.Blazr
02-10-2012, 01:34 PM
To debate the ability of Mario, it's easy to understand some skepticism, simply because he's been behind the 8-ball most of his career. Starts out in a lackluster 3-4, then switches to a lackluster 4-3, then back to a 3-4, but as a LB, in a year that finally shows some promise by proving to be non-lack luster, only to have to sit out 3/4ths of it due to injury.

He has yet to reach his potential and I for one don't attribute that to his lack of ability or motor.

If we get him back for a healthy 2012 campaign, I see an Alex Smith-like result in terms of realizing his full potential in terms of impact to the game.

To debate his worth in respect to a new contract... well, I have seen nothing from the Front Office to indicate he won't get paid Handsomely. Bob loves the guy. He is a humble superstar that has yet to bloom. With the backlash the franchise took when drafting him #1, no way McNair parts ways with who is arguably still the face of the franchise.

As an afterthought, I really saw/felt this 2011 Defense gel and become a "team" that gets it and gets after it, which is infectious, to the same degree as the inverse affect of loafing being cancerous. Mario will feed off this positive direction the "team" has elevated to and I hope will result in him being as much an impact/disruption on any given play as JJ Watt(who by the way has quickly become one of my FAVORITE players.)

Rey
02-10-2012, 02:17 PM
To debate the ability of Mario, it's easy to understand some skepticism, simply because he's been behind the 8-ball most of his career. Starts out in a lackluster 3-4, then switches to a lackluster 4-3, then back to a 3-4, but as a LB, in a year that finally shows some promise by proving to be non-lack luster, only to have to sit out 3/4ths of it due to injury.

He has yet to reach his potential and I for one don't attribute that to his lack of ability or motor.

If we get him back for a healthy 2012 campaign, I see an Alex Smith-like result in terms of realizing his full potential in terms of impact to the game.

To debate his worth in respect to a new contract... well, I have seen nothing from the Front Office to indicate he won't get paid Handsomely. Bob loves the guy. He is a humble superstar that has yet to bloom. With the backlash the franchise took when drafting him #1, no way McNair parts ways with who is arguably still the face of the franchise.

As an afterthought, I really saw/felt this 2011 Defense gel and become a "team" that gets it and gets after it, which is infectious, to the same degree as the inverse affect of loafing being cancerous. Mario will feed off this positive direction the "team" has elevated to and I hope will result in him being as much an impact/disruption on any given play as JJ Watt(who by the way has quickly become one of my FAVORITE players.)

Mario was never in a 3-4 as a base defense in the NFL prior to this year.

badboy
02-10-2012, 02:39 PM
I believe Mario Williams can rack up 15-20 sacks easy in Wade Phillips' defense. He was starting to get on a nice roll right before his season-ending injury. What did he have, like five sacks in five games -- that alone would be a 16-sack average if he had played a full season. I know he had three sacks in his last two games played this past season and he's been known to get them in bunches (2-3 any given game).

The guy is a monster and needs a chance to flourish alongside Wade Phillips. There's a reason Hall of Famer Bruce Smith was licking his chops and giving Mario Williams a lot of high praise last off-season, and talking about his great potential finally coming out with a coach like Wade Phillips. Even a legend like Bruce Smith was comparing himself to Mario Williams.

Brooks Reed is an excellent young player but he's no Mario Williams. Opposing offenses don't crap their pants and have to game plan for him all week long. People assume the Texans defense is better without Mario Williams because of how they played without him. I'm telling you they would have been historically good, on par with the 2000 Ravens and 1985 Bears with him on the field. And that's why I'm so damn excied about 2012. This defense is going to be something special. Something you only see every 12 to 15 years.

Super Mario will be a Texan when they hoist that Lombardi Trophy at the Superdome next year. That much I can tell you. People need to start embracing the man and stop talking all of this gibberish about him leaving. It's a bunch of hogwash to me.Here is why I have issue with you and others who post as you do. Reed should not be compared to Mario. He did not replace Williams, Barwin did. His stats should be used @ 9.5. I like Mario but think of what Barwin would do in a full year as starter with the Defense set like it was to showcase Mario 16 games. If Mario being off roster allows us to go after a starting WR like Dwayne Bowe or an OG from Saints or a CB2 + gives us cap space +maybe some high draft picks in a deep 2012 draft, I'd consider it. I am not one of those saying Mario is a avg player but I'm not saying he is elite either.

No you cannot tell us Mario will be a Texan because neither Mario or McNair know so how could you? It is an opinion (which is the same as mine btw) but just an opinion.

badboy
02-10-2012, 02:56 PM
To debate the ability of Mario, it's easy to understand some skepticism, simply because he's been behind the 8-ball most of his career. Starts out in a lackluster 3-4, then switches to a lackluster 4-3, then back to a 3-4, but as a LB, in a year that finally shows some promise by proving to be non-lack luster, only to have to sit out 3/4ths of it due to injury.

He has yet to reach his potential and I for one don't attribute that to his lack of ability or motor.

If we get him back for a healthy 2012 campaign, I see an Alex Smith-like result in terms of realizing his full potential in terms of impact to the game.

To debate his worth in respect to a new contract... well, I have seen nothing from the Front Office to indicate he won't get paid Handsomely. Bob loves the guy. He is a humble superstar that has yet to bloom. With the backlash the franchise took when drafting him #1, no way McNair parts ways with who is arguably still the face of the franchise.

As an afterthought, I really saw/felt this 2011 Defense gel and become a "team" that gets it and gets after it, which is infectious, to the same degree as the inverse affect of loafing being cancerous. Mario will feed off this positive direction the "team" has elevated to and I hope will result in him being as much an impact/disruption on any given play as JJ Watt(who by the way has quickly become one of my FAVORITE players.)You allude to a possible problem that I and others have; do we throw $50 - 60 million with maybe 20m guaranteed at the player you describe?

Trail.Blazr
02-10-2012, 02:59 PM
Mario was never in a 3-4 as a base defense in the NFL prior to this year.

Thanks Rey, my memory is fuzzier than I care to admit. I thought we were still a 3-4 when drafting him. But you are correct...

In fact, by drafting Mario, Houston abandoned the Caper's 3-4 and Mario's tutelage came in the 4-3 by way of RICHARD SMITH & Co. :hurrah::hurrah::hurrah:

Trail.Blazr
02-10-2012, 03:10 PM
You allude to a possible problem that I and others have; do we throw $50 - 60 million with maybe 20m guaranteed at the player you describe?

If my description fits this: A player with great potential who, by little fault of his own, has yet to reach that potential that others bestow upon him....

Then yes, it seems inevitable, based on past history. McNair will pay the man.

I, personally don't agree with that philosophy entirely. While I don't mind the fact that his first contract was predicated by his draft placement, after contract 1, I'd be less inclined to pony up if I felt he didn't live up to the paycheck, for whatever reason.. Then to be facing the similar circumstances now, I'm even less inclined.

Bob is in a predicament... If I don't pay Mario well enough to keep him in Houston and he goes else where and finally has that season we all know he should... who's got egg on their face?

I predict same 'ol, same 'ol... but what the hell do I know... I though Mario was a 3-4 rookie DE :-)

Scooter
02-10-2012, 03:20 PM
drunk edit

badboy
02-10-2012, 04:15 PM
If my description fits this: A player with great potential who, by little fault of his own, has yet to reach that potential that others bestow upon him....

Then yes, it seems inevitable, based on past history. McNair will pay the man.

I, personally don't agree with that philosophy entirely. While I don't mind the fact that his first contract was predicated by his draft placement, after contract 1, I'd be less inclined to pony up if I felt he didn't live up to the paycheck, for whatever reason.. Then to be facing the similar circumstances now, I'm even less inclined.

Bob is in a predicament... If I don't pay Mario well enough to keep him in Houston and he goes else where and finally has that season we all know he should... who's got egg on their face?

I predict same 'ol, same 'ol... but what the hell do I know... I though Mario was a 3-4 rookie DE :-)Good post but I am hoping Bob will say he paid Mario $50m+ and can part ways knowing Barwin is doing very good; maybe not Mario 2011 projected to 16 games but good enough. Then Bob says go get me Dwayne Bowe WR & Nicks OG Saints. $17m cap should allow us a decent offer to both for first contract year.

leebigeztx
02-10-2012, 04:15 PM
5 years and $55 million would be the maximum I would be okay with. Whatever the method and dollar amount of the guaranteed money, I would want to be able to get out from under the contract in three years without too much cap pain... preparing for the possibility that he is physically breaking down and/or consistently not playing at a high level. So, something like this:

$25 million signing bonus:
salary:
2012- $3 mil
2013- $4 mil
2014- $5.5 mil
2015- $7.5 mil
2016- $10 mil

Here is what the problem is that I see. 5yr 55m and 25m isn't even close. The starting point to me is charles johnson in terms of g money. He got 32 off 1 good yr. Mario and his versitilty,production,and age is going to be 36m or more. That's not hard to do and still have money to get other important guys done.

2012-5m sal 5.5m bn
13-6m sal 6.5m bn
14-6m sal 7m bn
The texans can fully guarantee these 1st 3 yrs of the deal. That would be 36m guaranteed money.The next 3 yrs look like this:
2015-10m sal 2m roster bonus
2016-10m sal 3m roster bonus
2017-10m sal 4m roster bonus
This gives mario 6yrs 73m. The best thing about the deal is after 3 yrs, if mario is injured or not performing up to par, they can cut him and owe $0. If he plays well and they need money,they can convert his salary into bonus money to create space. As I said before, its not that hard.The only reason why franchise tag isn't a option is because of his entry point from the draft. The rule are top 5 of guys at your position or 120% of his current,whichever is higher. Had mario been a lower 1st rd pick,say like tambi hali or elvis,his franchise tag would be 11m or so as a olb. Since his salary is higher than the current tag for his position,he would get 120% of his currentnt salary. That's why pepeers was so high. He was the #2 pick and his salary was 13m or so.They franchised him and he was sitting at 1m per game basically.

badboy
02-10-2012, 04:42 PM
Here is what the problem is that I see. 5yr 55m and 25m isn't even close. The starting point to me is charles johnson in terms of g money. He got 32 off 1 good yr. Mario and his versitilty,production,and age is going to be 36m or more. That's not hard to do and still have money to get other important guys done.

2012-5m sal 5.5m bn
13-6m sal 6.5m bn
14-6m sal 7m bn
The texans can fully guarantee these 1st 3 yrs of the deal. That would be 36m guaranteed money.The next 3 yrs look like this:
2015-10m sal 2m roster bonus
2016-10m sal 3m roster bonus
2017-10m sal 4m roster bonus
This gives mario 6yrs 73m. The best thing about the deal is after 3 yrs, if mario is injured or not performing up to par, they can cut him and owe $0. If he plays well and they need money,they can convert his salary into bonus money to create space. As I said before, its not that hard.The only reason why franchise tag isn't a option is because of his entry point from the draft. The rule are top 5 of guys at your position or 120% of his current,whichever is higher. Had mario been a lower 1st rd pick,say like tambi hali or elvis,his franchise tag would be 11m or so as a olb. Since his salary is higher than the current tag for his position,he would get 120% of his currentnt salary. That's why pepeers was so high. He was the #2 pick and his salary was 13m or so.They franchised him and he was sitting at 1m per game basically.

I prob would accept those figure as the cap hit for 1st year is $10.5m and if he got 17m 2011 we have the difference for other guys. I have posted on one of these threads that I think $72m total is highest we should go for 6 year deal.

thunderkyss
02-10-2012, 07:34 PM
5 years and $55 million would be the maximum I would be okay with. Whatever the method and dollar amount of the guaranteed money, I would want to be able to get out from under the contract in three years without too much cap pain... preparing for the possibility that he is physically breaking down and/or consistently not playing at a high level. So, something like this:

$25 million signing bonus:
salary:
2012- $3 mil
2013- $4 mil
2014- $5.5 mil
2015- $7.5 mil
2016- $10 mil

Cap hit:
2012 - $8M
2013 - $9M
2014 - $10.5M
2015 - $12.5M
2016 - $15M

If we cut him before the 2015 season, that leaves $10M of dead money.

$55M over 5 years is also $11M/yr

You & I aren't very far apart. I think we could work something out.

DocBar
02-10-2012, 07:48 PM
I can't wait to hear the moaning, groaning amd gnashing of teeth when the Texans make the correct move of letting Mario walk. I just hope he signs in the NFC.

thunderkyss
02-10-2012, 07:51 PM
Good post but I am hoping Bob will say he paid Mario $50m+ and can part ways knowing Barwin is doing very good; maybe not Mario 2011 projected to 16 games but good enough. Then Bob says go get me Dwayne Bowe WR & Nicks OG Saints. $17m cap should allow us a decent offer to both for first contract year.

What say we sign Mario to a $6M cap number for 2012. Leaving us $11M to work with. Sign Arian, sign Myers, sign Brisiel, sign Nicks, Then the 3 best WRs we can get in the draft.

Sign Mario to 5 years, $58M with a $25M signing bonus
2012 - $1M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2013 - $5M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2014 - $7M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2015 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2016 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)

So that's a total value of $78M over 5 years ($15.6M/yr) but he's got to earn it.

thunderkyss
02-10-2012, 08:09 PM
I can't wait to hear the moaning, groaning amd gnashing of teeth when the Texans make the correct move of letting Mario walk. I just hope he signs in the NFC.

The only way I'd be upset, would be if they didn't offer Mario a contract in the $11-$14 million range. If they offered him that money & he went elsewhere for $15M+, I'm not going to fault the Texans.


Sign Mario to 5 years, $58M with a $25M signing bonus
2012 - $1M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2013 - $5M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2014 - $7M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2015 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2016 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)

So that's a total value of $78M over 5 years ($15.6M/yr) but he's got to earn it.

I would sell this to Mario by explaining that he should look at the $25M bonus as part of his salary for the first three years.
2012 he makes $9M, 2013 he makes $13M, 2014 he makes $15M

& we can make that guaranteed money ($37M)

Then in 2015 $10M & in 2016 he makes $10M.... he doesn't make as much money in those years... But he's "protected" in 2015 (it would cost us just as much to cut him as it would to play him in guaranteed money $10M). 2016, we'd save $5M by cutting him. But if he's a beast at 30 (the 2015 year) we'll be looking to extend him through the next 5 years (2020) with another sweetheart deal.

arb729
02-10-2012, 08:15 PM
I can't wait to hear the moaning, groaning amd gnashing of teeth when the Texans make the correct move of letting Mario walk. I just hope he signs in the NFC.

Some speculation around my parts is that the Patriots would be a good fit, and may even be in the running should that come up.

badboy
02-10-2012, 08:27 PM
Some speculation around my parts is that the Patriots would be a good fit, and may even be in the running should that come up.Interesting as I have been pushing a trade to Pats for 2 years.

badboy
02-10-2012, 08:34 PM
The only way I'd be upset, would be if they didn't offer Mario a contract in the $11-$14 million range. If they offered him that money & he went elsewhere for $15M+, I'm not going to fault the Texans.



I would sell this to Mario by explaining that he should look at the $25M bonus as part of his salary for the first three years.
2012 he makes $9M, 2013 he makes $13M, 2014 he makes $15M

& we can make that guaranteed money ($37M)

Then in 2015 $10M & in 2016 he makes $10M.... he doesn't make as much money in those years... But he's "protected" in 2015 (it would cost us just as much to cut him as it would to play him in guaranteed money $10M). 2016, we'd save $5M by cutting him. But if he's a beast at 30 (the 2015 year) we'll be looking to extend him through the next 5 years (2020) with another sweetheart deal.As you have read, this is what I have been suggesting seems like forever. Mario did not get an upfront bonus first time around and 20-25 should appeal to him especially if the for 2-3 years salary is guaranteed. We can make it tempting. Same for Foster and any FA we want. Unlike the Rockets, we have a destination players should want

leebigeztx
02-10-2012, 08:40 PM
Truthfully, guys like meyers and briesel don't have a lot of value to other nfl teams. They got meyers for a 5th and he made like 3m per. The texans can offer him 4.5per and 4 yrs with 9m in bonus and get him signed. Briesel will make less and dressen can walk.

badboy
02-10-2012, 09:09 PM
Truthfully, guys like meyers and briesel don't have a lot of value to other nfl teams. They got meyers for a 5th and he made like 3m per. The texans can offer him 4.5per and 4 yrs with 9m in bonus and get him signed. Briesel will make less and dressen can walk.I don't see much bonus going to either but agree with your premise.

Either might not start too many other teams.

Texan_Bill
02-10-2012, 09:12 PM
From a pure financial aspect, you let him walk. Period.

Doesn't matter if you like him, loathe him, or are indifferent to him..

I happen to like Mario a lot!!! That said, you and I disagree on many things, but we're in "lock-step" here... Let him go! Don't put the Texans in Salary Cap "HELL" by either franchising him or signing him to a ridiculous contract.

"CUT BAIT"!!! He's not going to take a "hometown discount"......

*Disclaimer*
If he would.... re-sign him in a heartbeat!!

The value for him versus market value would be a detriment to the Texans Salary Cap...

badboy
02-10-2012, 09:14 PM
I happen to like Mario a lot!!! That said, you and I disagree on many things, but we're in "lock-step" here... Let him go! Don't put the Texans in Salary Cap "HELL" by either franchising him or signing him to a ridiculous contract.

"CUT BAIT"!!! He's not going to take a "hometown discount"......

*Disclaimer*
If he would.... re-sign him in a heartbeat!!

The value for him versus market value would be a detriment to the Texans Salary Cap...That is exactly what CHris Olsen and Smith should and prob are working on now.

Mr teX
02-11-2012, 12:33 AM
They let Cullen Jenkins walk in the offseason. They probably thought the same about him as some guys here feel about Mario.

That's certainly part of it..the other parts:

the defending champs ALWAYS get every teams' "A" game. That's why it's so common for teams who won the SB 1 year to have 1st round exits or even miss the playoffs the next year. Everyone wants a piece of the champ.

The other part that's a huge factor is your schedule. depending on what rotation you're on (NFC east, NFC west etc., etc.) and where you finished in your division (division winner, 2nd or 3rd place) you could wind up with a doozy of a schedule.

Our schedule gets much tougher next year with offensively capable teams like NE, GB & Det on the schedule. We'll also have to contend with defensive heavy teams like Balt, NY jets & Den. next year as well. Such is the perks of winning your division.

So stop getting caught up in the hype with such statements like "we were the #2 ranked defense last year without Mario, we should just let him walk, we'll be ok". Our defense was good last year, but the reality of it is our defense's improvement went hand in hand with the fact that our divisional opponents falling off. It wasn't nearly as good as our end of season ranking would indicate with terrible losses to Carolina & Indy late. If we go into the season next year with this mindstate, we're going to be in for a rude awakening.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 11:25 AM
DaleMurphy, I've countered your offer. You're Rick Smith, I'm Mario's agent...... it's your move.
5 years and $55 million would be the maximum I would be okay with.

$25 million signing bonus:
salary:
2012- $3 mil
2013- $4 mil
2014- $5.5 mil
2015- $7.5 mil
2016- $10 mil



Sign Mario to 5 years, $58M with a $25M signing bonus
2012 - $1M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2013 - $5M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2014 - $7M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2015 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2016 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)

So that's a total value of $78M over 5 years ($15.6M/yr) but he's got to earn it.

You're offering a 5 year $55M contract. I've countered with a 5 year $58M contract. We're both good with a $25M bonus.

So we've got a $3M difference, plus a few bonuses that I want to throw in.

DocBar
02-11-2012, 12:13 PM
DaleMurphy, I've countered your offer. You're Rick Smith, I'm Mario's agent...... it's your move.




You're offering a 5 year $55M contract. I've countered with a 5 year $58M contract. We're both good with a $25M bonus.

So we've got a $3M difference, plus a few bonuses that I want to throw in.A few bonuses? Do performance bonus' count against the cap? If not, I'd probably be good with that contract.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 12:39 PM
A few bonuses? Do performance bonus' count against the cap? If not, I'd probably be good with that contract.

The way I understand it, they do count against the cap, which is why most teams try to stay well under the cap (Not Cincy Bengals under, that's just cheap). If escalators cause your team to go over the cap, I believe they can be carried over to the following year.

Now, as Mario's agent, if you're good with the 5 year $58M with $37M guaranteed, $25M bonus, & the structure I outlined, all we need to do is negotiate the bonuses.

Let's start with the performance escalators. Is 12 sacks too low? What is your counter offer (13)? Do you believe my client doesn't deserve a bonus if he helps this team into the play-offs? Or to the AFC Championship game? Are you saying to take those out all together?

The Roster bonus for year 4 is non-negotiable. Without it, you're asking my client to take a greater pay cut than we are willing to accept. We can negotiate the date it is to be paid, allowing you to trade Mario if you do not wish to pay the bonus at that time.

The fifth year bonus we can negotiate as we believe it is just a formality. You'll either have a new contract for my client, or you'll be releasing prior to the start of the season. So what's your offer?

dalemurphy
02-11-2012, 01:10 PM
DaleMurphy, I've countered your offer. You're Rick Smith, I'm Mario's agent...... it's your move.




You're offering a 5 year $55M contract. I've countered with a 5 year $58M contract. We're both good with a $25M bonus.

So we've got a $3M difference, plus a few bonuses that I want to throw in.

I'm not a proponent of individual performance bonuses, particulary on defense. There's a number of reasons why that can be a problem.

mussop
02-11-2012, 03:00 PM
Don't be surprised to see the Chargers go after Mario hard. I wouldn't be surprised if they offer him a contract in the mid to high 60's just out of our reach. They need and want a stud pass rusher in the worst way.

I can't see a scenerio where Mario's agent accepts any offer we make without testing the FA waters. Which is why I laugh when all the Mario "WILL" return post that use the "you don't let a young stud pass rusher go" excuse. If that was the case then why would you even let hit become a UFA?

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 03:43 PM
Don't be surprised to see the Chargers go after Mario hard. I wouldn't be surprised if they offer him a contract in the mid to high 60's just out of our reach. They need and want a stud pass rusher in the worst way.

I can't see a scenerio where Mario's agent accepts any offer we make without testing the FA waters. Which is why I laugh when all the Mario "WILL" return post that use the "you don't let a young stud pass rusher go" excuse. If that was the case then why would you even let hit become a UFA?

Which is why I think Mario will have a new deal before March 13, he'll never be a UFA.

The Texans want Mario to be a Texan in 2012 & beyond. Mario wants to be a Texan in 2012 & beyond. We just need to work out the details.

Cerberus
02-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Take if for what it is worth:

@JKolba NFL Rumors will start heating up next week. One rumor i do have is : Mario Williams will be recruited heavily by the Bills / Raiders

False Start
02-11-2012, 06:05 PM
I was wondering when the Mario rumors would start up. I have been looking forward to hearing them. I can see him as a Raider.

Carr Bombed
02-11-2012, 06:26 PM
No way in hell would Mario consider the Bills. He's never been to the playoffs. If he goes to another team it's going to be a team that has a chance to contend.

Dutchrudder
02-11-2012, 07:20 PM
Cut Seymour, save 15 million, then use that money to sign Mario. Makes sense to me.

mussop
02-11-2012, 07:36 PM
My money is on the Chargers.

mussop
02-11-2012, 07:40 PM
Which is why I think Mario will have a new deal before March 13, he'll never be a UFA.

The Texans want Mario to be a Texan in 2012 & beyond. Mario wants to be a Texan in 2012 & beyond. We just need to work out the details.

You can say this till you're blue in the face (and you do) that doesn't make it true. Money has a way of making players forget loyalty. They better sign him before he gets to talk to other teams or he's most likely gone.

ObsiWan
02-11-2012, 08:38 PM
Which is why I think Mario will have a new deal before March 13, he'll never be a UFA.

The Texans want Mario to be a Texan in 2012 & beyond. Mario wants to be a Texan in 2012 & beyond. We just need to work out the details.

You can say this till you're blue in the face (and you do) that doesn't make it true. Money has a way of making players forget loyalty. They better sign him before he gets to talk to other teams or he's most likely gone.

I believe that is TK's point. Smithiak will do all in their power to get Mario all signed up with a team & Mario-friendly, long-term contract before anyone else gets a chance to tempt him with megabucks. The trick is how to do that without throwing some insulting lowball offer on the table but keeping salary cap room to sign everyone else we need to keep.

I fear we're in the same situation with Arian Foster. Strangely enough, there aren't multiple threads about his situation. Several posts, but few threads.

kiwitexansfan
02-11-2012, 09:12 PM
Cut Seymour, save 15 million, then use that money to sign Mario. Makes sense to me.

What, no cap hit?

gary
02-11-2012, 09:19 PM
Would you sign Manning or Mario if you needed both but just had the money for one and not the other?

badboy
02-11-2012, 09:23 PM
Would you sign Manning or Mario if you needed both but just had the money for one and not the other?We don't need either so hard for me.

Dutchrudder
02-11-2012, 09:23 PM
What, no cap hit?

Supposedly they paid Seymour 15 mill last year and that was all that was guaranteed. The 7.5 mill bonus he's due this year is a roster bonus, so that would mean he would need to be cut soon if they want to save that money.

Texaninlild
02-11-2012, 09:49 PM
There has been some Jerry Jones discussion around Williams up here in DFW...they need someone opposite Ware, but the Cowfries find themselves in cap hell, but half their team is up for free agency.

Yankee_In_TX
02-11-2012, 10:01 PM
Take if for what it is worth:

COME ONE RAIDERS!!! TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS.

Wait, is Al's kid as crazy as he was?

DocBar
02-11-2012, 10:30 PM
I would wait for da Raidahs to cut Seymor then sign him to a winning franchise. He's a BEAST inside at least MW's equal in terms of disruption and all. MW? Barwin ****ed him but good.

steelbtexan
02-11-2012, 10:40 PM
There has been some Jerry Jones discussion around Williams up here in DFW...they need someone opposite Ware, but the Cowfries find themselves in cap hell, but half their team is up for free agency.

Yep and as GM of the Cowgirls in the upcoming mock draft. Signing MW in FA would set my mock up to the point that the Cowgirls could become SB contenders.

Provided MW can stay healthy.

Dutchrudder
02-11-2012, 10:42 PM
Yep and as GM of the Cowgirls in the upcoming mock draft. Signing MW in FA would set my mock up to the point that the Cowgirls could become SB contenders.

Provided MW can stay healthy.

If they had the money to sign him, sure. Fact is, they don't. 20 mill in dead money this year is going to kill any chance of signing free agents this year. 2013 should be a good offseason for them.

steelbtexan
02-11-2012, 10:49 PM
If they had the money to sign him, sure. Fact is, they don't. 20 mill in dead money this year is going to kill any chance of signing free agents this year. 2013 should be a good offseason for them.

If they let Spencer,Newman,James,Spears,Sensabaugh,Bennett,Hol land,Kitna etc... walk they can make room.

Losing all of those guys wouldn't hurt the Cowgirls at all. IMHO

You know more about the cap ramifications than I do. But I've always said if a team wants a FA bad they can always find a way to make it happen.

Tell me about the Cowgirls cap and if they cut those guys will they be under the cap enough to sign MW to the kind of contract it will take to get him?

mussop
02-11-2012, 10:52 PM
I believe that is TK's point. Smithiak will do all in their power to get Mario all signed up with a team & Mario-friendly, long-term contract before anyone else gets a chance to tempt him with megabucks. The trick is how to do that without throwing some insulting lowball offer on the table but keeping salary cap room to sign everyone else we need to keep.

I fear we're in the same situation with Arian Foster. Strangely enough, there aren't multiple threads about his situation. Several posts, but few threads.

Because Arian is a RFA so there's no chance of him going anywhere.

DocBar
02-11-2012, 11:10 PM
I'm not a proponent of individual performance bonuses, particulary on defense. There's a number of reasons why that can be a problem.If I can tie more cap space up in performance bonuses, the happier I am. At least the player is earning that pay. Negotiating how much is performance based could be a severe headache in this case.
I think TK hood winked me earlier......

Allstar
02-11-2012, 11:40 PM
No way in hell would Mario consider the Bills. He's never been to the playoffs. If he goes to another team it's going to be a team that has a chance to contend.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nvcDf9mQ_No/TVYSuuSYMaI/AAAAAAAAOkM/3jeKOp9tP6M/s400/money-stacks.jpg

Dutchrudder
02-12-2012, 12:13 AM
If they let Spencer,Newman,James,Spears,Sensabaugh,Bennett,Hol land,Kitna etc... walk they can make room.

Losing all of those guys wouldn't hurt the Cowgirls at all. IMHO

You know more about the cap ramifications than I do. But I've always said if a team wants a FA bad they can always find a way to make it happen.

Tell me about the Cowgirls cap and if they cut those guys will they be under the cap enough to sign MW to the kind of contract it will take to get him?

Eh, well here's what I can figure from public numbers.

LB Spencer is scheduled to make 2.2 mill this year. He has a signing bonus of 895k that will be paid this year if he's cut. Last year of his deal, could save about 1.3 mill by cutting him.

CB Newman has 6 mill in signing bonus left on his deal over the next 3 years, so that will be accelerated to this year if he gets cut. He's scheduled to make 8 mill total this year, so that would save 2 mill. He made 10 last year.

LB Bradie James is a UFA who make 5.1 mill last year.

DE Spears was re-signed last year to a 5 year 19 mill deal. He has 2.8 million in signing bonus left on his deal, and is scheduled to make 2.7 this year. Cutting him would actually add 100k to the cap hit this year...

S Sensabaugh is a UFA this year, he made 2.5 mill last year on a 1 year deal.

TE Bennett is a UFA and just finished his rookie deal. Should be cheap to re-sign if they want to.

Holland is a UFA, made 500k last year.

Kitna I don't know what the guaranteed money was on his deal. He has 1.2 mill in signing bonus left on his deal. Scheduled to make 3.7 mill this year, so cutting him would save 2.5 mill if no other guaranteed money is outstanding.

mussop
02-12-2012, 12:24 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nvcDf9mQ_No/TVYSuuSYMaI/AAAAAAAAOkM/3jeKOp9tP6M/s400/money-stacks.jpg

exactly! People think he and his agent are just going to accept our offer as long as its decent. Why would he do that? He has nothing to loose by listening to offers from other teams. NOTHING! And he could end up making MILLIONS more. Sorry Wade. :wadepalm:

steelbtexan
02-12-2012, 01:35 AM
Eh, well here's what I can figure from public numbers.

LB Spencer is scheduled to make 2.2 mill this year. He has a signing bonus of 895k that will be paid this year if he's cut. Last year of his deal, could save about 1.3 mill by cutting him.

CB Newman has 6 mill in signing bonus left on his deal over the next 3 years, so that will be accelerated to this year if he gets cut. He's scheduled to make 8 mill total this year, so that would save 2 mill. He made 10 last year.

LB Bradie James is a UFA who make 5.1 mill last year.

DE Spears was re-signed last year to a 5 year 19 mill deal. He has 2.8 million in signing bonus left on his deal, and is scheduled to make 2.7 this year. Cutting him would actually add 100k to the cap hit this year...

S Sensabaugh is a UFA this year, he made 2.5 mill last year on a 1 year deal.

TE Bennett is a UFA and just finished his rookie deal. Should be cheap to re-sign if they want to.

Holland is a UFA, made 500k last year.

Kitna I don't know what the guaranteed money was on his deal. He has 1.2 mill in signing bonus left on his deal. Scheduled to make 3.7 mill this year, so cutting him would save 2.5 mill if no other guaranteed money is outstanding.

Thanks,

Man, Jerrah has that franchise screwed up.

GP
02-12-2012, 02:09 AM
exactly! People think he and his agent are just going to accept our offer as long as its decent. Why would he do that? He has nothing to loose by listening to offers from other teams. NOTHING! And he could end up making MILLIONS more. Sorry Wade. :wadepalm:

Bingo.

Nobody wants to consider this point of view, though, because reality sucks.

Mario and his agent are going to set a dollar amount they want from the Texans, and if they don't get it they're going to try and get it AND SOME from another team. Only if they can't get their pre-determined amount from some other team will they then work with the Texans on a more "friendly" amount.

But to begin with, all you guys and gals should be honest and admit that Mario and his agent will seek THE best dollar value they can get for Mario. They won't come right out of the box and start their price too low. It will be a number that Bob would have to stretch to accommodate...and yet a number that some other team miiiiiggggghhhhht be willing to consider in order to pry him away from McNair. Logical bargaining situation. Plain and simple.

gafftop
02-12-2012, 09:03 AM
Just don't see Mario signing before he gets offers in FA. The only way Texans sign him before FA is to give him a crazy contract, one he can't pass up. I don't see the Texans doing this. IF he had stayed healthy and played great the whole year, maybe the Texans would go all-out and try to get him signed before he hit FA, but even then I think it would have been difficult to sign him before he tested the waters.

As far as Foster goes they need to sign him NOW. Don't play games with him. Give him a fair offer and I think you get him now, play games and you lose him after next year. I guess you could franchise in 2013 but I don't think that is the best way to build goodwill. You treat Arian fairly now and you have a warrior on your team, you play games and you have the Titan's RB on your team.

I still think the Texans made a mistake by not trading Mario before the season last year. We might of had a couple additional high draft choices going into this draft. As it is now I think we get the booby prize the compensatory pick.

Can't wait for FA, the draft and next year. I do think the Texans take care of Foster this year or they have a major problem next year.

dalemurphy
02-12-2012, 10:12 AM
If I can tie more cap space up in performance bonuses, the happier I am. At least the player is earning that pay. Negotiating how much is performance based could be a severe headache in this case.
I think TK hood winked me earlier......

Assuming bonuses are tied to sacks:

1. You get a player motivated to freelance at the expense of the team, for his own good.

2. What happens when the team needs to move him to DE in 3-4? He'd losing out on sack totals for sure.

TEXANJAK
02-12-2012, 10:25 AM
I hate to say this but I think we have to let him walk and believe in Wade to draft his replacement.(His draft picks were very good last year). Our defense was #2 in the league. The Texans have to think about our future also. Look at the free agents we got coming up in the next couple of years. Foster will take a good chunk of money to keep him. The Texans should free up enough money by letting Mario and Jacoby go to sign a solid #2 veteran receiver to help Andre out. All the respect to what Mario brings to this team.

IDEXAN
02-12-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm hearing Tampa Bay is another possible destination because (a) they have gobs of cap-space, (b) they are a 4-3 team, and 4-3 DE is Marios "natural position" where he will surely get his best opportunity in free agency.
Marios says he wants to stay in Houston and play for the Texans. Hey, they all say they want to stay in their current city (fill in blanK) when they go into FA, just like the Texans say they have every intention of resigning him when realistically they know its the longest of long shots.

devo-x
02-12-2012, 11:09 AM
The Raiders (and the other NFL Teams) can enjoy watching Mario play with the Texans next year then

ChampionTexan
02-12-2012, 12:50 PM
Cut Seymour, save 15 million, then use that money to sign Mario. Makes sense to me.
Richard Seymour isn’t going anywhere (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/12/richard-seymour-isnt-going-anywhere/)
Jim Trotter of Sports Illustrated points out that Seymour’s $15 million salary in 2012 became fully guaranteed a few days ago. The Raiders could have cut him to avoid half of the salary.

My guess is this pretty much means Mario to the Raiders ain't gonna happen.

thunderkyss
02-12-2012, 01:47 PM
COME ONE RAIDERS!!! TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS.

Wait, is Al's kid as crazy as he was?

Doesn't matter, they've hired a GM... the question is is he as crazy as Al... they just cut Stanford Routte... leaving a load of dead money on the 2012 cap...

So, the jury is still out.

redwhiteblue
02-12-2012, 01:54 PM
Because Arian is a RFA so there's no chance of him going anywhere.

there is a good chance of him going somewhere and I am concerned about the Texans not getting his deal done and losing Foster. How would you feel if the Giants Patriots Packers came in and offered a deal we could not match? Remember poison pills? Maybe the overall numbers would not differ much but the way they structure if could mean we could not match it and lose Foster for the number 30, 31, 32 pick in the draft. This isn't losing Foster and getting a top 10 pick and that helping take away some of the pain, this is almost a second round pick and a real possibility.

Nawzer
02-12-2012, 02:09 PM
If some team out there is willing to bust up their salary cap to sign Mario then I say go for it. The Texans should make Mario a reasonable offer that is beneficial for both parties and if Mario rejects it then so be it. No one player should hold a team hostage with unreasonable contractual demands and Texans have shown they can be successful team without him. If we bring back Mario that's great if we don't I'm sure we'll find good replacements for him either by the draft, free agency or with the guys we have currently on the roster.

badboy
02-12-2012, 02:19 PM
I would wait for da Raidahs to cut Seymor then sign him to a winning franchise. He's a BEAST inside at least MW's equal in terms of disruption and all. MW? Barwin ****ed him but good.
My eyes are blurry from a cold but I believe ESPN trailer said Oakland fully guarantteed Seymour's $15 million for this next year.

Edit as I just read CT's post.

badboy
02-12-2012, 02:43 PM
Just don't see Mario signing before he gets offers in FA. The only way Texans sign him before FA is to give him a crazy contract, one he can't pass up. I don't see the Texans doing this. IF he had stayed healthy and played great the whole year, maybe the Texans would go all-out and try to get him signed before he hit FA, but even then I think it would have been difficult to sign him before he tested the waters.

As far as Foster goes they need to sign him NOW. Don't play games with him. Give him a fair offer and I think you get him now, play games and you lose him after next year. I guess you could franchise in 2013 but I don't think that is the best way to build goodwill. You treat Arian fairly now and you have a warrior on your team, you play games and you have the Titan's RB on your team.

I still think the Texans made a mistake by not trading Mario before the season last year. We might of had a couple additional high draft choices going into this draft. As it is now I think we get the booby prize the compensatory pick.

Can't wait for FA, the draft and next year. I do think the Texans take care of Foster this year or they have a major problem next year.Does Foster want to see how good Tate is? Arian seemed to want back on the field quickly when he went out injured.

rush2112mn
02-12-2012, 02:54 PM
No way in hell would Mario consider the Bills. He's never been to the playoffs. If he goes to another team it's going to be a team that has a chance to contend.

Yeah....but if the moneys right....he will take it....which I think he does....
He is going to be asking for big bucks.....which the Texans dont have right now.
If he is smart he will stay here and realize what a great situation this team is in now and the near future. But when you see them dollar signs from potential suitors....its funny how money can change a persons mind.

I just dont see him taking a pay cut when a lot of teams like Cincinnati who are so far under the cap can offer him tons of cash.

Vinny
02-12-2012, 03:14 PM
who doesn't want a young high quality edge rusher?

ChampionTexan
02-12-2012, 03:15 PM
who doesn't want a young high quality edge rusher?

Apparently a pretty fair number of posters on this board.

ChampionTexan
02-12-2012, 03:24 PM
there is a good chance of him going somewhere and I am concerned about the Texans not getting his deal done and losing Foster. How would you feel if the Giants Patriots Packers came in and offered a deal we could not match? Remember poison pills? Maybe the overall numbers would not differ much but the way they structure if could mean we could not match it and lose Foster for the number 30, 31, 32 pick in the draft. This isn't losing Foster and getting a top 10 pick and that helping take away some of the pain, this is almost a second round pick and a real possibility.

Well, if the Texans have an equal level of concern about an unmatchable offer (which would pretty much mean a ridiculously high year one base salary - or other 2012 cap hit - since poison pills were dealt with in the recent CBA), then they could always use the franchise tag on him as opposed to merely restricting him. This could guarantee Arian a salary that is likely just short of $8 Million, and give the Texans the exclusive right to negotiate a long term deal.

I don't know exactly how it will end up happening, but I'd be extremely surprised to see Arian in any other uniform over the next two or three seasons.

welsh texan
02-12-2012, 03:41 PM
If Mario goes to another team then best of luck to him. I really hope he doesn't because you can't make any argument that the team is better without him than with him, only that the teams cap situation might be a little easier.

Here's hoping Mario is true to his word that he wants to stay here and that the Texans cap situation isn't that bad that they can't make a reasonable offer for him.

thunderkyss
02-12-2012, 03:59 PM
Just don't see Mario signing before he gets offers in FA. The only way Texans sign him before FA is to give him a crazy contract, one he can't pass up. I don't see the Texans doing this. IF he had stayed healthy and played great the whole year, maybe the Texans would go all-out and try to get him signed before he hit FA, but even then I think it would have been difficult to sign him before he tested the waters.



But why, this is not the way business is done in the NFL The Texans will offer Mario a contract. If there appears no chance of signing him before the new league year, the Texans will contemplate using the franchise tag. The only way Mario is "allowed" to test free agency, is if the Texans allow him.

Yes, the cost alone is prohibitive but the fact remains that is a decision the Texans must make before Mario becomes an UFA.

thunderkyss
02-12-2012, 04:07 PM
I hate to say this but I think we have to let him walk and believe in Wade to draft his replacement.(His draft picks were very good last year). Our defense was #2 in the league. The Texans have to think about our future also. Look at the free agents we got coming up in the next couple of years. Foster will take a good chunk of money to keep him. The Texans should free up enough money by letting Mario and Jacoby go to sign a solid #2 veteran receiver to help Andre out. All the respect to what Mario brings to this team.

The 2013 cap will increase substantially, we can structure both Mario & Foster to take that into account. We don't need to be overly concerned beyond that.

Dutchrudder
02-12-2012, 04:14 PM
Richard Seymour isn’t going anywhere (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/12/richard-seymour-isnt-going-anywhere/)


My guess is this pretty much means Mario to the Raiders ain't gonna happen.

Wow, that's just dumb. He's not worth 15 mill a year. The Raiders would have been better off last year letting him play for the franchise tag amount. That organization is just full of fail. Instead of getting a young promising pass rusher like Mario, they are giving 15 mill to a 32 year old.

ObsiWan
02-12-2012, 04:31 PM
Because Arian is a RFA so there's no chance of him going anywhere.

All the more reason to lock him down this year and not wait until next season to do a long term deal.

Insideop
02-12-2012, 04:42 PM
If some team out there is willing to bust up their salary cap to sign Mario then I say go for it. The Texans should make Mario a reasonable offer that is beneficial for both parties and if Mario rejects it then so be it. No one player should hold a team hostage with unreasonable contractual demands and Texans have shown they can be successful team without him. If we bring back Mario that's great if we don't I'm sure we'll find good replacements for him either by the draft, free agency or with the guys we have currently on the roster.

^^^^ This! ^^^^^

I hope Mario stays, but if it's going to have a negative affect (money wise, player wise, etc...) on the TEAM, then I hope he goes. I don't say this lightly either because I've always liked Mario, even from the time the Texans drafted him over Bush and Young. I just hope he realizes what a good thing he has here and decides that it's not just all about the money and stays.

steelbtexan
02-12-2012, 04:54 PM
Wow, that's just dumb. He's not worth 15 mill a year. The Raiders would have been better off last year letting him play for the franchise tag amount. That organization is just full of fail. Instead of getting a young promising pass rusher like Mario, they are giving 15 mill to a 32 year old.

Not that I dont agree with you because I do,

But the Raiders would rather pay a 32 yr old healthy Seymour over an injury prone younger MW.

Seymour has had 0 major injuries over the course of his stellar ring filled career.

badboy
02-12-2012, 05:40 PM
Not that I dont agree with you because I do,

But the Raiders would rather pay a 32 yr old healthy Seymour over an injury prone younger MW.

Seymour has had 0 major injuries over the course of his stellar ring filled career.Or they realize Mario would not sign with them

GP
02-12-2012, 06:15 PM
Apparently a pretty fair number of posters on this board.

I'm trying to find all these posts where people say they actively WANT him gone.

Can you find those for me? I can't find them anywhere.

What I can find, however, is many posts that take on a position of skepticism about whether the franchise can sustain what he will likely ask for in his new contract.

GP
02-12-2012, 06:29 PM
But why, this is not the way business is done in the NFL The Texans will offer Mario a contract. If there appears no chance of signing him before the new league year, the Texans will contemplate using the franchise tag. The only way Mario is "allowed" to test free agency, is if the Texans allow him.

Yes, the cost alone is prohibitive but the fact remains that is a decision the Texans must make before Mario becomes an UFA.

So you think Bob will franchise him?

That's a whole new dynamic, IMO. Would Bob franchise him, or try to make the offer and see if Mario takes Bob's new contract? If he got franchise tagged, how does affect Mario's motivation to play 100% for the Texans in 2012??? We saw how it affected Dunta Robinson, he was pedestrian and had an attitude all year.

I dunno. I think this will be a time where Bob declines to use the franchise tag, and if he does...he'll use it on someone else. I foresee Bob making Mario a generous offer and then letting the chips fall where they may.

ObsiWan
02-12-2012, 07:29 PM
I'm trying to find all these posts where people say they actively WANT him gone.

Can you find those for me? I can't find them anywhere.

What I can find, however, is many posts that take on a position of skepticism about whether the franchise can sustain what he will likely ask for in his new contract.

Hint: Search on mussop or dalemurphy
:D

dalemurphy
02-12-2012, 07:43 PM
Hint: Search on mussop or dalemurphy
:D

As I have said numerous times, I'd be fine with him getting a contract somewhere in the Antonio Smith to Jonathan Joseph range. Beyond that, I don't like it. Once we starting getting at/beyond Charles Johnson numbers (6yrs and $72 million), I think it would be a very bad and very destructive move for the franchise.

I would much rather allocate our resources to ensure this year's defense remains largely intact moving forward beyond 2013... You know, the guys that were on the field when the defense was utterly dominant. Also, I'd like to use some of those resources to get a quality Wide Receiver in free agency, perhaps add a solid, veteran corner back, and replace Mario with quality depth at OLB.

ObsiWan
02-12-2012, 09:08 PM
As I have said numerous times, I'd be fine with him getting a contract somewhere in the Antonio Smith to Jonathan Joseph range. Beyond that, I don't like it. Once we starting getting at/beyond Charles Johnson numbers (6yrs and $72 million), I think it would be a very bad and very destructive move for the franchise.

That's not what THIS says...

Mario Williams stinks!!

Wow! I know that I have a reputation in this arena. However, I have argued that I wish Mario was healthy because he does make the team better and deeper. I have only been arguing that he isn't worth the money.

Well, I have changed my mind. His absence is one of the reasons this defense has gotten so good. By the way, the Texans are now 7-0 without Mario and the defense is much better.

Mario simply doesn't hustle. He's not physical and only gives good effort when he is put in a situation where he has an advantage and opportunity to make a play. I've never seen a player jog and trot on the field as much as he does. After wathching a physical and aggressive defense the past two months, his laziness really pops on the screen. Those of you who doubt this, go back on watch these games. It is quite infuriating. I am official glad he is on the I.R. Otherwise, our defense would've never turned into what it has. There is no way Rick Smith re-signs this guy! Not gonna happen!

I'll have video by Monday, I hope.

You don't want him here and you've made that plain. You're not saying we need an upgrade. You've said our defense is better off without him.

I really have to concede that the financial ramifications of signing Mario to a huge contract risks losing other key pieces to our team. That's not good business. So obviously it remains to be seen how many and which of our free agents we can afford to keep. I hope Mario is among them. You do not. I'd like to see how much better this pass rush can be with Mario in the rotation. You said you think it'll get worse (how else can one interpret "we're better off without him"?).

I was really messing with GP when he said he couldn't find any posts where people say they actively WANT him gone. They aren't as plentiful as the "jacoby must go" posts, but they're out there.
:D

chicagotexan2
02-12-2012, 10:28 PM
If some team out there is willing to bust up their salary cap to sign Mario then I say go for it. The Texans should make Mario a reasonable offer that is beneficial for both parties and if Mario rejects it then so be it. No one player should hold a team hostage with unreasonable contractual demands and Texans have shown they can be successful team without him. If we bring back Mario that's great if we don't I'm sure we'll find good replacements for him either by the draft, free agency or with the guys we have currently on the roster.

Right on. Don't break the bank or eff up our cap for an oft injured lb. he'd help the d but he's not worth a huge deal when you consider he's injury prone and the d didn't loose too much without him. I'd love to franchise him and deal him for picks, I doubt we'd get two first rounders but a couple of first day picks would be fair.

DX-TEX
02-12-2012, 10:48 PM
Apparently a pretty fair number of posters on this board.

lol repped


Seriously, Mario is not going anywhere.

Dutchrudder
02-12-2012, 10:53 PM
Right on. Don't break the bank or eff up our cap for an oft injured lb. he'd help the d but he's not worth a huge deal when you consider he's injury prone and the d didn't loose too much without him. I'd love to franchise him and deal him for picks, I doubt we'd get two first rounders but a couple of first day picks would be fair.

Even a single third round pick for him would be more than we would get by him walking. I would be happy with a 2nd for him if he's just gonna go to the highest bidder. I expect a team with lots of cap space will give him a crazy Peppers type offer.

GP
02-12-2012, 11:31 PM
I was really messing with GP when he said he couldn't find any posts where people say they actively WANT him gone. They aren't as plentiful as the "jacoby must go" posts, but they're out there.
:D

I think the point I was making is that the most logical route to go, as a fan, is to hope that the two sides make a deal that isn't POTENTIALLY bad for the Texans long-term.

I happen to think Mario's agent will structure a proposal toward McNair that is maybe a notch or two more than what the Texans feel comfortable in doing, knowing that some other team will jump at that offer...leading to a bidding war between multiple teams, driving up the cost even more.

Will Bob take the bait on such a deal? Will his sentimental side win out, even in the face of increased success on defense with what seems to be a SYSTEM that fits its players every bit as much as Kubiak's SYSTEM fits his own guys on offense? Who knows.

What I don't like is when someone tries to divide people on here and paint with a broad brush. Even though Dale and Mussop are vocal in their opposition to Mario Williams, they have their points and I agree with SOME of those points.

When someone says "Quite a few people on here," it's as if there's two diametrically opposed factions struggling for supremacy on this issue. Which is just not true. Most people, the vast majority, would be OK with him remaining a Texans player as long as the money doesn't get too goofy.

Dale, that was some rough sentiments about being glad Mario was on I.R.....I'm only hoping that was extreme hyperbole and you were swept up in the moment or something. LOL. Wowzers.

Cerberus
02-12-2012, 11:35 PM
Not that I dont agree with you because I do,

But the Raiders would rather pay a 32 yr old healthy Seymour over an injury prone younger MW.

Seymour has had 0 major injuries over the course of his stellar ring filled career.

Actually, he was playing through injury most of last season which is why his numbers were down, yet he still made the pro-bowl . . . err, I mean the popularity bowl.

leebigeztx
02-12-2012, 11:41 PM
The last info I got from gil brandt was the texans have 36m in cap room. They could cut walters,lienhart,and cody to push that to 45m.They could do a deal for mario(10.5),foster(7.5m) , meyers(4.5) and still have about 20m worth of cap space to resign brown,cushing early and be active in free agent market. Why posters don't understand is beyond me.

thunderkyss
02-12-2012, 11:51 PM
I think the point I was making is that the most logical route to go, as a fan, is to hope that the two sides make a deal that isn't POTENTIALLY bad for the Texans long-term.


The thing about it, is that any deal will be POTENTIALLY bad.. some folks will spin a 5 year $24 Million contract as bad or too much. We've already got half the board believing it's Mario or Arian, or Mario or Myers... or Mario or a 2WR....

We don't even know what Mario's cap number for 2011 was much less where we stand concerning the 2012 cap.

BullNation4Life
02-12-2012, 11:52 PM
COME ONE RAIDERS!!! TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS.

Wait, is Al's kid as crazy as he was?

Didn't the Raiders trade their 2 first round picks to the Bengals for Palmer? I don't think they have the picks to trade, they would have to sign him outright, wouldn't they?

Lucky
02-12-2012, 11:54 PM
So you think Bob will franchise him?

McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.
Link (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/01/19/12/Foster-Williams-top-priorities-for-Texan/landing_texans.html?blockID=649138&feedID=4073)

How the fantasy of the Texans tagging Mario continues to perpetuate is puzzling. Williams will either be re-signed, or leave without compensation. The franchise tag is "out of the question".

GP
02-12-2012, 11:57 PM
The last info I got from gil brandt was the texans have 36m in cap room. They could cut walters,lienhart,and cody to push that to 45m.They could do a deal for mario(10.5),foster(7.5m) , meyers(4.5) and still have about 20m worth of cap space to resign brown,cushing early and be active in free agent market. Why posters don't understand is beyond me.

The numbers are all over the place.

Back in the mid-to-late part of the reg season, the franchise tag amount on Mario was anywhere from $16 to $22 million depending on what guy on TV was spouting off "his numbers."

We won't know all those amounts on all those players, there's just no way to know what contracts are going to cost what...which players might get better offers and leave for greener pastures. Etc., etc.

But I can almost guarantee that Mario will seek the best offer he can get out there, and it won't be cheap enough to retain all the guys we need to retain. Maybe it can be done, it just seems like there's going to be some flood waters down in Texas (as my good friend, Stevie Ray Vaughn, once said) and all of the telephone lines will be down. We'll be trying to call our sweet baby, and we won't hear a single sound. If you catch my drift....

GP
02-12-2012, 11:59 PM
Link (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/01/19/12/Foster-Williams-top-priorities-for-Texan/landing_texans.html?blockID=649138&feedID=4073)

How the fantasy of the Texans tagging Mario continues to perpetuate is puzzling. Williams will either be re-signed, or leave without compensation. The franchise tag is "out of the question".

See, Kuharsky has the tag at just a shade under $17 million. The $22 million figure is out there, as well. This is just what i was saying in my previous post.

That's why I say I don't think we can fully depend upon ANYTHING that we're reading until the talks start and we see which way the wind is blowing. I happen to think the wind will be blowing in from the Gulf, pushing the Mario front north and out of Texas.

thunderkyss
02-13-2012, 12:03 AM
But I can almost guarantee that Mario will seek the best offer he can get out there, and it won't be cheap enough to retain all the guys we need to retain.

if leebigeztx's number is correct, $36M, how can you guarantee this? We could sign Mario to a $16M 2012 cap number, sign our core players, & still be active in FA

ObsiWan
02-13-2012, 12:29 AM
The last info I got from gil brandt was the texans have 36m in cap room. They could cut walters,lienhart,and cody to push that to 45m.They could do a deal for mario(10.5),foster(7.5m) , meyers(4.5) and still have about 20m worth of cap space to resign brown,cushing early and be active in free agent market. Why posters don't understand is beyond me.

I take it this $36M number is based the expiration of current contracts that ended this season...??

dalemurphy
02-13-2012, 12:31 AM
That's not what THIS says...



You don't want him here and you've made that plain. You're not saying we need an upgrade. You've said our defense is better off without him.

I really have to concede that the financial ramifications of signing Mario to a huge contract risks losing other key pieces to our team. That's not good business. So obviously it remains to be seen how many and which of our free agents we can afford to keep. I hope Mario is among them. You do not. I'd like to see how much better this pass rush can be with Mario in the rotation. You said you think it'll get worse (how else can one interpret "we're better off without him"?).

I was really messing with GP when he said he couldn't find any posts where people say they actively WANT him gone. They aren't as plentiful as the "jacoby must go" posts, but they're out there.
:D


I've argued that Mario's absence allowed a chemistry to develop on the defense, turning a good defense into a great one. I have also said it is a theory, only. I acknowledge that it is possible the defense would've improved at the same rate with him active. I would rather have Connor Barwin playing WOLB than Mario. However, I'm not convinced Brooks Reed will become an excellent player. And, I certainly am concerned about our depth if Jesse Nading makes the team.

You can't separate the worth of a player on the field with the cost of the player against the cap. Those things are tied together. When Mario's $18 million is on the field playing disinterested, it isn't only that he is not make a play but also that the offense has to rely on Jacoby Jones instead of a legitimate wide receiver.

So, yeah, when I see a player who is consuming 15% of the team's cap on the field not giving effort, I may conclude that I don't want the jerk on the team. Now, if he is only consuming 5% of the cap, then his laziness/disinterest isn't quite as grating. Not only that, but the coaching staff won't handle a guy that makes $7 million per year the same way as a guy that makes $18 million per year. The guy making $18 million will start no matter what... The guy making $7 million can get benched.

dalemurphy
02-13-2012, 12:40 AM
The last info I got from gil brandt was the texans have 36m in cap room. They could cut walters,lienhart,and cody to push that to 45m.They could do a deal for mario(10.5),foster(7.5m) , meyers(4.5) and still have about 20m worth of cap space to resign brown,cushing early and be active in free agent market. Why posters don't understand is beyond me.

Please stop!! That is not true! Cutting those guys does not eliminate their impact on the salary cap. Walter's cap charge would more than account for any savings the Texans may receive cutting Leinart and Cody.

Please read any number of a 1000 posts, articles, etc... discussing how signing bonuses affect the salary cap when players are cut before their contracts end. One more time:

If Kevin Walter signed a deal like this:

$10 million signing bonus/ 5 year deal for a total of $25 mil

year one salary = $1 mill
year two salary = $2 mil
year three salary=$3 mil
year four salary = $4 mil
year five salary = $5 mil

If the Texans cut Walter before the third year, the final three years of his prorated signing bonus would count against this year's cap, even though he isn't on the team and the team has avoided the final three years salaries... So, the Texans would have a cap charge of $6 million, in that scenario, without having Walter's services.

also, Kevin Walter still doesn't have an "s" in his name, FYI.

ObsiWan
02-13-2012, 12:45 AM
The thing about it, is that any deal will be POTENTIALLY bad.. some folks will spin a 5 year $24 Million contract as bad or too much. We've already got half the board believing it's Mario or Arian, or Mario or Myers... or Mario or a 2WR....

We don't even know what Mario's cap number for 2011 was much less where we stand concerning the 2012 cap.

This is the issue.
There are just too dang many unknowns to make a decent assessment. I've seen franchise numbers for Mario that range from 18M to 24M. No one seems to know exactly how much cap room we'll have to work with. No one except Mario and his agent know how little they'll take to allow him to stay a Texans or if he is, as some have said have said, is just itching to see what he can get on the FA mkt. To that end, no one knows which teams are interested in Mario and how much they'll be willing to pony up to get him.

Other teams are making roster moves to clear up cap space... I wish the Texans would make a damned move. This is driving me nuts.

I want to keep Mario in the fold. But if the money says he leaves, that's business.
But I tell you what, if Foster gets away from us, I'm gonna go full blown....
:overreact:

leebigeztx
02-13-2012, 01:09 AM
I take it this $36M number is based the expiration of current contracts that ended this season...??

Yep, unlike the nba where there is a cap hold, the nfl expirings are there without renouncing anyone.

Dalemurphy, they gave walter 11m guarantee, but the gave 7m guarantee in yr 1 and the other 4 this yr in a guarantee. That means no proration and paid in cash vs credit card. Before I tell you wrong, I will catch gil brandt or pat kirwin on nfl radio.

infantrycak
02-13-2012, 01:33 AM
Please stop!!

Yes, please stop and I am not saying you don't know quite a bit about the cap.

Yep, unlike the nba where there is a cap hold, the nfl expirings are there without renouncing anyone.

Dalemurphy, they gave walter 11m guarantee, but the gave 7m guarantee in yr 1 and the other 4 this yr in a guarantee. That means no proration and paid in cash vs credit card. Before I tell you wrong, I will catch gil brandt or pat kirwin on nfl radio.

Exactly. The structure matters and Walter was paid his guaranteed money in the first two years. His initial bonus was paid as a roster bonus so there is no proration. His other guaranteed money was in salary for seasons already played - no proration.

Plus there is often bad reporting. Again as an example Peyton's contract is commonly reported to include as guaranteed money the $28 mil OPTION/roster bonus which is upcoming. There is nothing actually guaranteed about it other than everyone assumed they would want him to stick around.

mussop
02-13-2012, 02:41 AM
Hint: Search on mussop or dalemurphy
:D

Show me where I have said that.

leebigeztx
02-13-2012, 03:20 AM
Yes, please stop and I am not saying you don't know quite a bit about the cap.



Exactly. The structure matters and Walter was paid his guaranteed money in the first two years. His initial bonus was paid as a roster bonus so there is no proration. His other guaranteed money was in salary for seasons already played - no proration.

Plus there is often bad reporting. Again as an example Peyton's contract is commonly reported to include as guaranteed money the $28 mil OPTION/roster bonus which is upcoming. There is nothing actually guaranteed about it other than everyone assumed they would want him to stick around.


I know. There are a lot of "repected" posters who really don't know how contracts work. I'm not saying I'm captain capologist,but I can fire gil brandt or pat kirwin a email and get real answers. I shot kirwin an email about mario and a legit,market value,cap friendly deal. The post earlier I had, kirwin and brandt both replied the smart teams have been guaranteed 1st 3yrs of the contract to stay out of dead money.

I posted for mario 6yrs 72m with 36m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs.

1st- 5m sal 5.5m roster bonus
2nd 6m sal 6.5m r. Bonus
3rd 6m sal 7m. r. Bonus

That's real market value money. The next 3 yrs are more salary because if released for injuries or under perormance, the team would owe him 0. The roster bonus can be due or sructered in the form of workout and report due say prior to free agency.

4th 10m sal 2m roster bonus
5th. 9m sal 3m r bonus
6th 8m sal. 4m r bonus

This protects the club either way and gives them flexibility. There isn't a team in this league who can cut a sub 30 yr old before yr 3 without being penalized. In football, the injury risk is always there for every player. Dumerville got paid and then was out for the yr. Peterson got paid then wrecked his knee. Charles did the same.

ObsiWan
02-13-2012, 06:31 AM
Show me where I have said that.

To be straight about it, I thought your thing was that we should have traded Mario last year. Not that you hate him or want him gone no matter what. Now it's too late to get anything for him via trade. Is that fair? Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

Now you have called out many Mario supporters in unflattering terms (I'll admit sometimes they earned it for twisting the facts). And you have stated that you believe that the Brooks/Barwin combo is better than the Williams/Barwin combo. And that's fine too, because, like Dale's opinion, it's just another one I don't completely share.

But the fact that we can even make the comparison and have the argument (and not be laughed off the message board) means with the three of them we have great depth in our front seven (four if you count Brahman). That's depth I'd rather not lose.

dalemurphy
02-13-2012, 07:18 AM
Yes, please stop and I am not saying you don't know quite a bit about the cap.



Exactly. The structure matters and Walter was paid his guaranteed money in the first two years. His initial bonus was paid as a roster bonus so there is no proration. His other guaranteed money was in salary for seasons already played - no proration.

Plus there is often bad reporting. Again as an example Peyton's contract is commonly reported to include as guaranteed money the $28 mil OPTION/roster bonus which is upcoming. There is nothing actually guaranteed about it other than everyone assumed they would want him to stick around.

I'm not pretending to know what Walter's contract was. I was giving a hypothetical example. What I do know is that almost every time the Texans have cut any player with a year or more remaining on their contract, they have incurred a cap hit. The idea that Walter, Cody, and JJ would be cut this year and the team would salve $9 million under the cap is ludicrous. It's very difficult to argue the details of contracts that we simply don't have access to. What I'm bristling to is the idea being pushed that the Texans can just cut any and all Texans under contract without suffering cap ramifications. That is nonsense. I've been on sportstrac and have seen how it lists Texans' contracts as if they never give signing bonuses. However, I think sportstrac is hopelessly in error based on 10 years of Texans history and 20 years of NFL history under the salary cap.

TEXANJAK
02-13-2012, 08:05 AM
Should we let Mario and Allen walk? If Asante Samuel is available to tighten up the other end of the field to allow our front to get to the quarterback more. Reed filled in nicely in his place.

GP
02-13-2012, 10:27 AM
The thing about it, is that any deal will be POTENTIALLY bad.. some folks will spin a 5 year $24 Million contract as bad or too much. We've already got half the board believing it's Mario or Arian, or Mario or Myers... or Mario or a 2WR....

We don't even know what Mario's cap number for 2011 was much less where we stand concerning the 2012 cap.

We were bumping right up against the cap in 2011, though.

And although the amount reportedly increases in 2012...what will Mario's contract asking price be and what will we pay Arian Foster, as well as other free agents we need to retain PLUS what free agents we'd try to bring into the fold for 2012?

To me, all those things add up to present what should be a tight squeeze for us in 2012...to satisfy the hunger of all of our own FAs plus any new ones we might want to bring in.

What's frustrating is to see how this is being spun into a situation where the board has two people: (A) Those who aren't sweating it and think it all gets done, and (B) Those who think Mario has to be gone or Arian has to be gone.

To me, people are just speculating that Mario's asking price COULD be so high that it presents problems working other people's deals. Whether it happens or not remains to be seen, but it is still a possibility. And it is also a possibility that it all gets done and there;s no reason to sweat.

In short: It's just message board banter, plain and simple.

GP
02-13-2012, 10:35 AM
To be straight about it, I thought your thing was that we should have traded Mario last year. Not that you hate him or want him gone no matter what. Now it's too late to get anything for him via trade. Is that fair? Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

Now you have called out many Mario supporters in unflattering terms (I'll admit sometimes they earned it for twisting the facts). And you have stated that you believe that the Brooks/Barwin combo is better than the Williams/Barwin combo. And that's fine too, because, like Dale's opinion, it's just another one I don't completely share.

But the fact that we can even make the comparison and have the argument (and not be laughed off the message board) means with the three of them we have great depth in our front seven (four if you count Brahman). That's depth I'd rather not lose.

Maybe the problem here is that IF we're going to pay Mario to stay, he has to be this ultra-elite defensive player that completely takes over games on a consistent basis?

The hallmark of the Wade Phillips 2011 Texans defense was that you never knew which guy(s) were going to dominate and influence the game's momentum. One game it would be Barwin. Another game it would be Reed. Another game it would Smith. Another game it would be Watt. Another game it would be Mario (early in the year, before he was injured).

Maybe the problem is that the whole Next Man Up situation was not just for the sake of injuries, but also a defining trait of the defense as a whole? Maybe the quibbling is due to how the defense did pretty good without Mario...so why would Mario be paid like a rock star when guys like Reed, Watt, and Barwin aren't being paid like rock stars and therefore we could save the money and go get other pieces to the puzzle?

Wade Phillips' defense has created this argument, IMO. He did such a masterful job of utilizing what we had, bringing in two key free agents, and bringing in quality 1st and 2nd rounders in Watt and Reed that it's complicating the idea that Mario Williams is a key factor in our success. Is he? Because if he's here as a way to make sure we have good depth, maybe Wade can draft that depth in the draft? Not saying he can, just playing devil's advocate.

Dutchrudder
02-13-2012, 10:40 AM
Didn't the Raiders trade their 2 first round picks to the Bengals for Palmer? I don't think they have the picks to trade, they would have to sign him outright, wouldn't they?

I think at this point we can assume the Raiders gave up a 2012 1st and a 2013 2nd for Palmer.

BigBull17
02-13-2012, 12:03 PM
COME ONE RAIDERS!!! TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS.

Wait, is Al's kid as crazy as he was?

Considering they owe Belicheck their first bord child, I doubt they have the picks lol

thunderkyss
02-13-2012, 12:45 PM
You can't separate the worth of a player on the field with the cost of the player against the cap. Those things are tied together. When Mario's $18 million is on the field playing disinterested, it isn't only that he is not make a play but also that the offense has to rely on Jacoby Jones instead of a legitimate wide receiver.



Not entirely true.

1st, KDub is making more money than Jacoby Jones. If we have a problem with the #2 WR spot, let's talk about how much money we have invested in a 30 year old, not very fast WR.

2nd, Jacoby's role can & should be filled with an inexpensive late round draft pick or an UDFA.

3rd, players like Plaxico Buress were signed for less than Jacoby Jones.... I think Ted Ginn Jr was as well. We paid too much for the production we're getting from Jacoby, but we didn't pay him #2 WR money. Here's last years list of WRs by receiving yards (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=2&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_YARDS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&Submit=Go&experience=null&archive=false&statisticCategory=RECEIVING&conference=null&qualified=true), just saying, we didn't go cheap on WR because of Mario's contract.

thunderkyss
02-13-2012, 01:15 PM
I posted for mario 6yrs 72m with 36m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs.

1st- 5m sal 5.5m roster bonus
2nd 6m sal 6.5m r. Bonus
3rd 6m sal 7m. r. Bonus

4th 10m sal 2m roster bonus
5th. 9m sal 3m r bonus
6th 8m sal. 4m r bonus



I like that. His cap number in 2012 would be $10.5M which is at least $6M cheaper than we believe his 2011 cap number was.

2013 & 2014 his cap number would be $12.5M & $13M which is still lower than his 2011 cap number.

The thing, though, is that some people are going to be tied up with the $12M/yr average...... which I think is fair for a player like Mario.

gafftop
02-13-2012, 01:27 PM
To be straight about it, I thought your thing was that we should have traded Mario last year. Not that you hate him or want him gone no matter what. Now it's too late to get anything for him via trade. Is that fair? Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

Now you have called out many Mario supporters in unflattering terms (I'll admit sometimes they earned it for twisting the facts). And you have stated that you believe that the Brooks/Barwin combo is better than the Williams/Barwin combo. And that's fine too, because, like Dale's opinion, it's just another one I don't completely share.

But the fact that we can even make the comparison and have the argument (and not be laughed off the message board) means with the three of them we have great depth in our front seven (four if you count Brahman). That's depth I'd rather not lose.

04-19-2011 #131
gafftop
All Pro


Join Date: Apr 2006
Age: 54
Posts: 976
Rep Power: 602 The Mario Issue, Let's look at it in another way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion.


I was the one that wanted to trade him before last year started and get something for him because no matter what happened during the year we were going to be in this situation. I will stand behind what I said back in April 2011.

The consistently good teams make the choices that increase the overall value of the team. I saw that for the first time last year when the Texans pulled the trigger on Joseph and Manning and let Aso go. In years past I think the Texans would have played the fool and just waited and then got nothing.

I think or hope they tried to address the Mario situation before the season started but were not able to get anything done for one reason or another and decided just to play out the season and see what happened. I feel that is why they might of stuck him on IR so quickly because they knew it was over with Mario. It will be interesting to hear what really happened when all this is settled.

Dutchrudder
02-13-2012, 01:43 PM
I like that. His cap number in 2012 would be $10.5M which is at least $6M cheaper than we believe his 2011 cap number was.

2013 & 2014 his cap number would be $12.5M & $13M which is still lower than his 2011 cap number.

The thing, though, is that some people are going to be tied up with the $12M/yr average...... which I think is fair for a player like Mario.

Of course 12 mill a year is fair, the problem is it's not market value. Mario is the defensive headliner of this free agent class, he will get attention from ESPN, SI and the rest of the media. There will be a lot of buzz and hype about where he goes, probably the way Peppers and Haynesworth were covered. He's going to get a much better deal than salary and roster bonuses. He deserves a good signing bonus at the very least, plus guaranteed money around 35-45 mill.

The dude's going to get paid, just probably not by us, unless we tag him. I think people need to be ready for Mario to go, as I think he will get a Peppers deal that the Texans won't be able to match. Peppers got paid at the age of 29, Mario is 26. Some team with cap space to spend will say they want him to be their DE for the next 6-7 years and be happy give him what he wants.

Jackie Chiles
02-13-2012, 02:35 PM
I think at this point we can assume the Raiders gave up a 2012 1st and a 2013 2nd for Palmer.

Payback for stealing our 2nd and 3rd round picks for Philip Buchanon.

leebigeztx
02-13-2012, 03:51 PM
Of course 12 mill a year is fair, the problem is it's not market value. Mario is the defensive headliner of this free agent class, he will get attention from ESPN, SI and the rest of the media. There will be a lot of buzz and hype about where he goes, probably the way Peppers and Haynesworth were covered. He's going to get a much better deal than salary and roster bonuses. He deserves a good signing bonus at the very least, plus guaranteed money around 35-45 mill.

The dude's going to get paid, just probably not by us, unless we tag him. I think people need to be ready for Mario to go, as I think he will get a Peppers deal that the Texans won't be able to match. Peppers got paid at the age of 29, Mario is 26. Some team with cap space to spend will say they want him to be their DE for the next 6-7 years and be happy give him what he wants.

In the deal I proposed, he's getting 36m guaranteed. See, understand this, its the guaranteed money vs the funny money agents like to put on the deal. Even we say he signed 6 yr 72m with 36m in guarantees, they can structure that to the 1st 3yrs are guarantees.Its not hard at all. The same can be done for foster. Go and look at how the eagles structure contracts and get the idea on how they always have room to resign their players and go get a big nam free agent.

leebigeztx
02-13-2012, 03:55 PM
My money is on the Chargers.

Your money would be well spent by someone else. When was the last time chargers have been active in free agency?Theyre a cash strapped team with a not well like gm. I'm going to check their cap situation,but they're never players in free agency. The raiders are in cap hell too. The cutting of routte accelerated his g money and theyre in trouble.

GP
02-13-2012, 04:02 PM
Payback for stealing our 2nd and 3rd round picks for Philip Buchanon.

Ah, yes. Astute observation good sir.

Dutchrudder
02-13-2012, 04:30 PM
In the deal I proposed, he's getting 36m guaranteed. See, understand this, its the guaranteed money vs the funny money agents like to put on the deal. Even we say he signed 6 yr 72m with 36m in guarantees, they can structure that to the 1st 3yrs are guarantees.Its not hard at all. The same can be done for foster. Go and look at how the eagles structure contracts and get the idea on how they always have room to resign their players and go get a big nam free agent.

I'm not arguing about how to structure the money, I'm well aware of how to structure the deal to help the team, what I'm saying is that 36 mill guaranteed with no signing bonus is lowballing Mario. His market value will be higher than that. You can slice it any way you want, but 12 mill average over 6 years isn't going to cut it. The Bills, Bucs, Bengals, Browns, Rams, Seahawks, etc etc, have tens of millions to spend in cap room and they know that in 2013 they need to be close to the cap limit. They will be attempting to outbid the Texans for Mario and other teams for talent because they have the money to do that.

leebigeztx
02-13-2012, 05:03 PM
I'm not arguing about how to structure the money, I'm well aware of how to structure the deal to help the team, what I'm saying is that 36 mill guaranteed with no signing bonus is lowballing Mario. His market value will be higher than that. You can slice it any way you want, but 12 mill average over 6 years isn't going to cut it. The Bills, Bucs, Bengals, Browns, Rams, Seahawks, etc etc, have tens of millions to spend in cap room and they know that in 2013 they need to be close to the cap limit. They will be attempting to outbid the Texans for Mario and other teams for talent because they have the money to do that.

Do you really understand salary structure? I mean, I'm not trying to be a turd, but I think you're missing alot here. He doesnt have to get a signing bonus with a guaranteed 1st 3 yrs of a deal. The deal i put together means Mario will get 36m regardless of his injuries,play or whatever. A signing bonus is pretty much the same, but its using the credit card method vs cash. Signing bonus is used as upfront money just like the guarantee money. Signing bonus money can be prorated over the contract. A guy like mario, its better to just guarantee the 1st 3 yrs so that the team doesnt have dead money. Let me be clear, if he makes it to open market, he's gone.

Ryan
02-13-2012, 05:04 PM
John Clayton expects us to franchise him.

leebigeztx
02-13-2012, 05:12 PM
John Clayton expects us to franchise him.

Thats not gonna happen. He's speculating. They could in , but i doubt they do irt.

Dutchrudder
02-13-2012, 05:19 PM
Do you really understand salary structure? I mean, I'm not trying to be a turd, but I think you're missing alot here. He doesnt have to get a signing bonus with a guaranteed 1st 3 yrs of a deal. The deal i put together means Mario will get 36m regardless of his injuries,play or whatever. A signing bonus is pretty much the same, but its using the credit card method vs cash. Signing bonus is used as upfront money just like the guarantee money. Signing bonus money can be prorated over the contract. A guy like mario, its better to just guarantee the 1st 3 yrs so that the team doesnt have dead money. Let me be clear, if he makes it to open market, he's gone.

I'm well aware of all that, but when big name guys like him re-sign, they tend to get signing bonuses for three reasons, 1) it's a huge payday for the player and his agent, 2) it is up front guaranteed money that the team can't recoup, 3) it makes the team less likely to cut or trade the player due to future cap hits being accelerated - which often leads to teams keeping a player 1 or 2 more years than they want to.

I'm sure the team would love to avoid giving him a signing bonus, as any smart GM would for any player, but the reality is that guys like him get signing bonuses, even if it's only 6-10 mill. Sure that money counts towards the guaranteed money of the total contract, but there are other factors to consider.

GP
02-13-2012, 05:25 PM
The Bills,Bucs, Bengals, Browns, Rams, Seahawks, etc etc, have tens of millions to spend in cap room and they know that in 2013 they need to be close to the cap limit. They will be attempting to outbid the Texans for Mario and other teams for talent because they have the money to do that.

Bucs have a TON of money to spend. Makes a person wonder if that's why they wanted to interview Wade Phillips in the first place...the possibility that they land Wade Phillips and he can recruit Mario Williams to join him with the Bucs. Just my contribution to the Conspiracy Theory Of The Day quotas.

Mario is gone. Unless Bob gets super-freaky on us. Which is always a possibility.

Cerberus
02-13-2012, 05:43 PM
I think at this point we can assume the Raiders gave up a 2012 1st and a 2013 2nd for Palmer.

That would appear to be the case.

Considering they owe Belicheck their first bord child, I doubt they have the picks lol

For what? Do you mean Marvin Lewis and the BeenGals?

Payback for stealing our 2nd and 3rd round picks for Philip Buchanon.

I forgot about that; Raider fans had a great laugh over that one.

Cerberus
02-13-2012, 06:16 PM
My eyes are blurry from a cold but I believe ESPN trailer said Oakland fully guarantteed Seymour's $15 million for this next year.

Yeah, but consider this:

Jim Trotter@SI_JimTrotter:
just spoke w/ richard seymour. said he has several elite years left & would be willing to restructure/extend his deal if #raiders asked
https://twitter.com/#!/SI_JimTrotter...56300896272384

mussop
02-13-2012, 06:30 PM
Your money would be well spent by someone else. When was the last time chargers have been active in free agency?Theyre a cash strapped team with a not well like gm. I'm going to check their cap situation,but they're never players in free agency. The raiders are in cap hell too. The cutting of routte accelerated his g money and theyre in trouble.

We will see. If they don't do something this coming year there are going to be many changes. That tends to motivate most people. They're defense hasn't been the same since Merriman (sp?) faded away. They need someone in the worst way that can get to the QB in the worst way.

thunderkyss
02-13-2012, 07:03 PM
I'm well aware of all that, but when big name guys like him re-sign, they tend to get signing bonuses for three reasons, 1) it's a huge payday for the player and his agent, 2) it is up front guaranteed money that the team can't recoup, 3) it makes the team less likely to cut or trade the player due to future cap hits being accelerated - which often leads to teams keeping a player 1 or 2 more years than they want to.

I'm sure the team would love to avoid giving him a signing bonus, as any smart GM would for any player, but the reality is that guys like him get signing bonuses, even if it's only 6-10 mill. Sure that money counts towards the guaranteed money of the total contract, but there are other factors to consider.

I was surprised when his rookie contract came without a signing bonus. I would have thought it rare for a #1 overall to not have a signing bonus in his contract.

If I were Mario's agent, I would demand a signing bonus... more money in my pocket, plus you're right, makes it unlikely that he would get cut, when the guaranteed portion of the contract runs out.

However, a good GM would counter with a smaller salary over the first 3 or 4 years of the contract. The numbers would still be the same..... $36M-$40M guaranteed.

Here was my proposal...
What say we sign Mario to a $6M cap number for 2012. Leaving us $11M to work with. Sign Arian, sign Myers, sign Brisiel, sign Nicks, Then the 3 best WRs we can get in the draft.

Sign Mario to 5 years, $58M with a $25M signing bonus
2012 - $1M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2013 - $5M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2014 - $7M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2015 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2016 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)

So that's a total value of $78M over 5 years ($15.6M/yr) but he's got to earn it.

The signing bonus ($25M) & the first 3 years' salary ($13M) are the only guarantees ($38M)

But if we can do basically the same thing without a bonus, I'd be all for it.

leebigeztx
02-13-2012, 10:00 PM
I'm well aware of all that, but when big name guys like him re-sign, they tend to get signing bonuses for three reasons, 1) it's a huge payday for the player and his agent, 2) it is up front guaranteed money that the team can't recoup, 3) it makes the team less likely to cut or trade the player due to future cap hits being accelerated - which often leads to teams keeping a player 1 or 2 more years than they want to.

I'm sure the team would love to avoid giving him a signing bonus, as any smart GM would for any player, but the reality is that guys like him get signing bonuses, even if it's only 6-10 mill. Sure that money counts towards the guaranteed money of the total contract, but there are other factors to consider.

Ok,1 more time. If mario signs the kind of deal I suggested and has a career ending injury week 1 of the season, the texans will still owe 36m. If the texans give him a 6yr deal worth 7280m with a 36m signing bonus and he has the same career ending injury in week 1, they will owe him 36m. Its the same money except a bonus can be prorated through the 6yrs and the 1st 3yr guarantee is paid in the 1st 3yrs. Again, one is paying cash and the other is credit card. The fully guarantee 1st 3 yrs for 36 m protectes the team after the 3 yrs. The signing bonus has the ability to have dead money and lingering effects.

badboy
02-13-2012, 10:52 PM
So you think Bob will franchise him?

That's a whole new dynamic, IMO. Would Bob franchise him, or try to make the offer and see if Mario takes Bob's new contract? If he got franchise tagged, how does affect Mario's motivation to play 100% for the Texans in 2012??? We saw how it affected Dunta Robinson, he was pedestrian and had an attitude all year.

I dunno. I think this will be a time where Bob declines to use the franchise tag, and if he does...he'll use it on someone else. I foresee Bob making Mario a generous offer and then letting the chips fall where they may.Mario should jump & shout halleluyah if he is tagged. His one year salary would be apprx $17m and then the following year as a relatively young defensive specialist he is rigth back looking at a long term deal with lots of upfront dollars and 2-3 years guaranteed.

$17 + $20 m bonus for next deal + say $7m first year base = $44m in two years.

badboy
02-13-2012, 11:12 PM
Do you really understand salary structure? I mean, I'm not trying to be a turd, but I think you're missing alot here. He doesnt have to get a signing bonus with a guaranteed 1st 3 yrs of a deal. The deal i put together means Mario will get 36m regardless of his injuries,play or whatever. A signing bonus is pretty much the same, but its using the credit card method vs cash. Signing bonus is used as upfront money just like the guarantee money. Signing bonus money can be prorated over the contract. A guy like mario, its better to just guarantee the 1st 3 yrs so that the team doesnt have dead money. Let me be clear, if he makes it to open market, he's gone.Am I not correct in saying that upfront bonus is just that? He gets the "$20m" bonus in his checking account immediately while the guaranteed is his but gets paid over the guaranteed years? If I 'm correct, I'd want the highest upfront bonus NOW and then the highest guaranteed amount in as fewest years as possible. Guaranteed money is his just not NOW.

badboy
02-13-2012, 11:25 PM
My hope is if Mario goes elsewhere it is for such a huge deal that no one questions Texans resolve to re-sign their own. If it is not for a much larger deal there will be much bickering. Of course that's what makes MBs.

badboy
02-13-2012, 11:50 PM
I am convinced Mario will not go to another team just for the bucks but will want a legitimate shot at SB. This eliminate many.

Allstar
02-14-2012, 04:10 AM
I am convinced Mario will not go to another team just for the bucks but will want a legitimate shot at SB. This eliminate many.

Not disagreeing, but what evidence do you have that convinced you of this?

Trail.Blazr
02-14-2012, 09:14 AM
I'm hearing Tampa Bay is another possible destination because (a) they have gobs of cap-space, (b) they are a 4-3 team, and 4-3 DE is Marios "natural position" where he will surely get his best opportunity in free agency.
Marios says he wants to stay in Houston and play for the Texans. Hey, they all say they want to stay in their current city (fill in blanK) when they go into FA, just like the Texans say they have every intention of resigning him when realistically they know its the longest of long shots.

Mario being a Carolina native, I wouldn't rule out Tampa, Atlanta, Tennessee or DC area. I shudder to think of him as a TACK

El Tejano
02-14-2012, 09:19 AM
Mario being a Carolina native, I wouldn't rule out Tampa, Atlanta, Tennessee or DC area. I shudder to think of him as a TACK

And that's one reason why I say sign him. Sign our guys, with Mario and Foster being the main guys, and call it a Free Agency.

nero THE zero
02-14-2012, 09:55 AM
Mario being a Carolina native, I wouldn't rule out Tampa, Atlanta, Tennessee or DC area. I shudder to think of him as a TACK

There's an article (http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2012/02/13/if-falcons-lose-grimes-and-abraham-how-about-mathis/) in the AJC today about the Falcons' needs, one of which being DE, and what they should do. The writer dismisses Mario as an option due to (1) the Texans likelihood, in his opinion, of re-signing Mario and (2) the inability of the Falcons to compete in a bidding war for him. But, check out the comments section; the commenters are lusting over Mario like a group of 13 year boys and a skin flick.

There was also this somewhat unrelated gem that I felt I must share.
It was NOT a mistake to sign Dunta Robinson.

Dunta Robinson was one of the best COVER CORNERS in the league with Houston. In fact, Houston was top-10 against the pass with Robinson, and bottom-10 against the pass WITHOUT HIM.

The mistake, as with the many other mistakes involving this team the last four years, is with Mike Smith and his idiotic, ultra-conservative, play-not-to-lose schemes.

You have a guy who is big and strong and fast, who is built to be out on a island and man-up on the other team’s No. 1 receiver, who is built to bump & disrupt receivers at the line and then cover them step-for-step down the field and what do you do with him? You make him a ZONE CORNER???

Dunta Robinson is yet another example of Thomas Dimitroff giving Mike Smith a player of excellent talent that Mike Smith REFUSES to adapt his scheme to take advantage of that player’s strengths, in fact, even worse, Mike Smith makes that player worse by sticking him in a scheme that focuses on his weaknesses.

The vanilla zones the Falcons play fit Brent Grimes, who, like Ronde Barber, is compact, agile, and has quick closing speed. So when Grimes plays ten yards off the receiver, he can close quickly once the ball is in the air.

Robinson is NOT that kind of corner. To blame Robinson for any shortcomings he’s had on the field is shortsighted, and really, it’s blaming the WRONG person.

Over the last four years, the Falcons have had far too many instances of Smith and his staff refusing to use the strengths of the players they have, and making their team that much weaker for it.

Instead of coming up with a scheme that allows Robinson to play man and rolls zone coverage to Grimes’ side of the field, Smith had Robinson play off the receiver again and again and again.

That is just STUPIDITY.

But, it really is par for the course with Mike Smith.

Look at Matt Ryan. He’s a prototypical West Coast-style QB, or a spread the field QB. So instead of bringing in, say, someone from the Packers or the Eagles to install an offense that takes advantage of Ryan’s skills, Smith brings in his buddy from Jax to keep the same backwards, run-first, throw down the field offense that has done absolutely nothing against good teams, and simply hoping that Koetter calls a better game than Mularkey won’t help this team at all.

It was said the reason why Spags wouldn’t come here is because he wanted to run HIS defense and wanted no interference from Smith. Nolan, it seems, is going to be neutered by Marty Schottenheimer, oops, I mean Mike Smith, just as Smith cut the balls off of BVG.

This team is so frakked.
heh

badboy
02-14-2012, 12:33 PM
Not disagreeing, but what evidence do you have that convinced you of this?Apologise for repeating my past posts but to answer: Mario was 1st #1 pick to not demand an upfront bonus indicating not overly consumed by cash. He never tried to renegotiate as did Andre Johnson (not blasting AJ as I'd done same thing but it is true). I think Mario has a relationship with Bob McNair different than other Texans. Remember his early years when he was stopped by Houston PD and Bob had private meeting informing him he was a Texan and his behavior was a negative? Mario apologised & thanked McNair for treating him like a man. I just think both sides will do all possible keep Mario a Texan.

thunderkyss
02-14-2012, 06:59 PM
I am convinced Mario will not go to another team just for the bucks but will want a legitimate shot at SB. This eliminate many.

What are we calling big bucks?

I think the Texans would be willing to pay him up to $14M/yr..... that's below Peppers, but about the other guys. They'll be able to work his cap number to $10M or so for 2012 & still have a manageable number for 2013 & 2014. I think they'll have about $36M or so guaranteed.. maybe $38M

I don't think anyone is going to offer him much more than that.

False Start
02-14-2012, 08:09 PM
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii202/J4103V/marioraider.jpg

badboy
02-14-2012, 08:22 PM
What are we calling big bucks?

I think the Texans would be willing to pay him up to $14M/yr..... that's below Peppers, but about the other guys. They'll be able to work his cap number to $10M or so for 2012 & still have a manageable number for 2013 & 2014. I think they'll have about $36M or so guaranteed.. maybe $38M

I don't think anyone is going to offer him much more than that.If you are talking $14m base salary, Williams should jump on that. I'm expecting offer in 8-12m CAP. I can see $36m guaranteed with some of that upfront bonus.

thunderkyss
02-14-2012, 08:45 PM
If you are talking $14m base salary, Williams should jump on that. I'm expecting offer in 8-12m CAP. I can see $36m guaranteed with some of that upfront bonus.
No, I mean his average salary. This is my Mario deal:

Sign Mario to 5 years, $58M with a $25M signing bonus
2012 - $1M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2013 - $5M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2014 - $7M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2015 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2016 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)

So that's a total value of $78M over 5 years ($15.6M/yr) but he's got to earn it.
I doubt he'll get a better "overall" or "guaranteed" offer. He may get a bigger signing bonus... but I'd find it hard to believe it would be a deal breaker.

badboy
02-14-2012, 09:15 PM
No, I mean his average salary. This is my Mario deal:

I doubt he'll get a better "overall" or "guaranteed" offer. He may get a bigger signing bonus... but I'd find it hard to believe it would be a deal breaker.Yeah that is what threw me off as I saw your earlier post. My fear is Texans may think they can pay him his 2011 salary first two years of new deal. They can cut enough to pay Foster and re-negotiate others to pay the FA they want to keep.

leebigeztx
02-15-2012, 02:41 AM
Am I not correct in saying that upfront bonus is just that? He gets the "$20m" bonus in his checking account immediately while the guaranteed is his but gets paid over the guaranteed years? If I 'm correct, I'd want the highest upfront bonus NOW and then the highest guaranteed amount in as fewest years as possible. Guaranteed money is his just not NOW.

One more time, if mario gets 36m guarantee with a 20m signing bonus, bob can cut him a check for 20m now and then 16m later. If they guarantee the 1st 3 yrs of a 36m bonus deal,mario is going to get the same 36m. 36m guarantee whether its 1st 3 yr guarantee or a 20m signing bonus is the same. When you get a chance, google the haynesworth deal. He had 40m guarantee in the 1st 3yrs. Anyway it went,they had to cough up 40m withing that 3 yr span. After year 3, he was a tradeable player because his salary was only 4m.

Texan_Bill
02-15-2012, 08:32 AM
There's an article (http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2012/02/13/if-falcons-lose-grimes-and-abraham-how-about-mathis/) in the AJC today about the Falcons' needs, one of which being DE, and what they should do. The writer dismisses Mario as an option due to (1) the Texans likelihood, in his opinion, of re-signing Mario and (2) the inability of the Falcons to compete in a bidding war for him. But, check out the comments section; the commenters are lusting over Mario like a group of 13 year boys and a skin flick.

There was also this somewhat unrelated gem that I felt I must share.
It was NOT a mistake to sign Dunta Robinson.

Dunta Robinson was one of the best COVER CORNERS in the league with Houston. In fact, Houston was top-10 against the pass with Robinson, and bottom-10 against the pass WITHOUT HIM.

The mistake, as with the many other mistakes involving this team the last four years, is with Mike Smith and his idiotic, ultra-conservative, play-not-to-lose schemes.

You have a guy who is big and strong and fast, who is built to be out on a island and man-up on the other team’s No. 1 receiver, who is built to bump & disrupt receivers at the line and then cover them step-for-step down the field and what do you do with him? You make him a ZONE CORNER???

Dunta Robinson is yet another example of Thomas Dimitroff giving Mike Smith a player of excellent talent that Mike Smith REFUSES to adapt his scheme to take advantage of that player’s strengths, in fact, even worse, Mike Smith makes that player worse by sticking him in a scheme that focuses on his weaknesses.

The vanilla zones the Falcons play fit Brent Grimes, who, like Ronde Barber, is compact, agile, and has quick closing speed. So when Grimes plays ten yards off the receiver, he can close quickly once the ball is in the air.

Robinson is NOT that kind of corner. To blame Robinson for any shortcomings he’s had on the field is shortsighted, and really, it’s blaming the WRONG person.

Over the last four years, the Falcons have had far too many instances of Smith and his staff refusing to use the strengths of the players they have, and making their team that much weaker for it.

Instead of coming up with a scheme that allows Robinson to play man and rolls zone coverage to Grimes’ side of the field, Smith had Robinson play off the receiver again and again and again.

That is just STUPIDITY.

But, it really is par for the course with Mike Smith.

Look at Matt Ryan. He’s a prototypical West Coast-style QB, or a spread the field QB. So instead of bringing in, say, someone from the Packers or the Eagles to install an offense that takes advantage of Ryan’s skills, Smith brings in his buddy from Jax to keep the same backwards, run-first, throw down the field offense that has done absolutely nothing against good teams, and simply hoping that Koetter calls a better game than Mularkey won’t help this team at all.

It was said the reason why Spags wouldn’t come here is because he wanted to run HIS defense and wanted no interference from Smith. Nolan, it seems, is going to be neutered by Marty Schottenheimer, oops, I mean Mike Smith, just as Smith cut the balls off of BVG.

This team is so frakked.
heh

UGABugKiller is brilliant!! :gun:


I think the username says enough about the post.

Dutchrudder
02-15-2012, 09:54 AM
Ok,1 more time. If mario signs the kind of deal I suggested and has a career ending injury week 1 of the season, the texans will still owe 36m. If the texans give him a 6yr deal worth 7280m with a 36m signing bonus and he has the same career ending injury in week 1, they will owe him 36m. Its the same money except a bonus can be prorated through the 6yrs and the 1st 3yr guarantee is paid in the 1st 3yrs. Again, one is paying cash and the other is credit card. The fully guarantee 1st 3 yrs for 36 m protectes the team after the 3 yrs.

I don't know why you continue to push this as if I can't possibly comprehend the complexity of your idea. You aren't telling me anything I don't already know, my argument is that Mario isn't going to want that type of deal. He's 26, the headliner of this defensive class and lots of teams have enormous amounts of money to spend. I think there will be much better offers on the table for him than what you propose. There are at least half a dozen teams out there that have 40+ million to spend in free agency this year.

Yes the Texans can offer him the type of deal you proposed, no I don't think it is comparable to what other teams will offer. Go look at the Julius Peppers deal if you want to get some perspective, he's the most recent example of a comparable player. His guaranteed money was paid by the end of his second year and then some.

The signing bonus has the ability to have dead money and lingering effects.

Right, and those "lingering effects" favor the player, not the club, which is why I expect him to get a signing bonus. It ties the player to the club and make it more likely that the player will earn those future year salaries so he can get the full value of the contract. That's the whole point of my previous post, it's in the best interest of Mario or any player for that matter, to get a signing bonus.

False Start
02-15-2012, 10:49 AM
It may take hometown discount to keep Mario Williams (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/15/it-may-take-hometown-discount-to-keep-mario-williams/)


Arian Foster is a restricted free agent. Pro Bowl center Chris Myers is a free agent. Starting guard Mike Brisiel is a free agent.

Add it all up, and it will be very difficult to keep Mario Williams. John McClain of the Houston Chronicle writes that Williams would have to take a “hometown discount” to stay in Houston.

TheDrifter
02-15-2012, 11:20 AM
I fully expect Mario to be gone.

Some terrible team with a boatload of cap space is going to way over pay for his services. He'll end up somewhere like Cleveland or Tampa and lucky to see the playoffs again until well past 30.

leebigeztx
02-15-2012, 11:33 AM
I don't know why you continue to push this as if I can't possibly comprehend the complexity of your idea. You aren't telling me anything I don't already know, my argument is that Mario isn't going to want that type of deal. He's 26, the headliner of this defensive class and lots of teams have enormous amounts of money to spend. I think there will be much better offers on the table for him than what you propose. There are at least half a dozen teams out there that have 40+ million to spend in free agency this year.

Yes the Texans can offer him the type of deal you proposed, no I don't think it is comparable to what other teams will offer. Go look at the Julius Peppers deal if you want to get some perspective, he's the most recent example of a comparable player. His guaranteed money was paid by the end of his second year and then some.



Right, and those "lingering effects" favor the player, not the club, which is why I expect him to get a signing bonus. It ties the player to the club and make it more likely that the player will earn those future year salaries so he can get the full value of the contract. That's the whole point of my previous post, it's in the best interest of Mario or any player for that matter, to get a signing bonus.

Pepper deal was different because it happened in an un capped world. That's why they paid his money in 2 installments. Even if 40m is the magic number,that's still not hard to do with a 1st 3yr guarantee.

6m sal 7.5 roster
6.5m sal 7m roster
6m sal 7m roster

There is 40m guarantee in the 1st 3yrs. That 6 yrs 80m with 40m gurantee. In the next 3 yrs, you just have more salary and a smaller roster bonus so if they need to cut or restructure, its easier to move salary to bonus.

10.5 sal 3m roster
10m sal 3.5 roster
10m sal 3m roster

6yr 80m with the guarantee money he's looking for plus the club protection added. Not so hard. The contract can be worth more by adding snaps bonus and probowl incentive as well as report to camp bonus.

False Start
02-15-2012, 11:41 AM
I fully expect Mario to be gone.

Some terrible team with a boatload of cap space is going to way over pay for his services. He'll end up somewhere like Cleveland or Tampa and lucky to see the playoffs again until well past 30.

Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. Mario may never experience playoffs if he goes for the money.

badboy
02-15-2012, 11:50 AM
One more time, if mario gets 36m guarantee with a 20m signing bonus, bob can cut him a check for 20m now and then 16m later. If they guarantee the 1st 3 yrs of a 36m bonus deal,mario is going to get the same 36m. 36m guarantee whether its 1st 3 yr guarantee or a 20m signing bonus is the same. When you get a chance, google the haynesworth deal. He had 40m guarantee in the 1st 3yrs. Anyway it went,they had to cough up 40m withing that 3 yr span. After year 3, he was a tradeable player because his salary was only 4m.One more time, that is what I've said. Upfront bonus is prorated over the contract and non bonus guaranteed $ is base salary. What confuses me and evidently others is when you state first 3 yrs of a 36m bonus deal. That should be two separate things imo. Other than incentive bonus paid seasonally, most of us refer to "bonus" money as upfront (before the contract begins). Upfront money has been paid so if you want to consider it guaranteed ok but that is a bit riiculous.
While the player wants as much upfront money and guaranteed years of money, there are benefits for both to owner. As you have said, salary money guaranteed or not, can be set up in agreed amounts over the life of the contract.

badboy
02-15-2012, 12:05 PM
Pepper deal was different because it happened in an un capped world. That's why they paid his money in 2 installments. Even if 40m is the magic number,that's still not hard to do with a 1st 3yr guarantee.

6m sal 7.5 roster
6.5m sal 7m roster
6m sal 7m roster

There is 40m guarantee in the 1st 3yrs. That 6 yrs 80m with 40m gurantee. In the next 3 yrs, you just have more salary and a smaller roster bonus so if they need to cut or restructure, its easier to move salary to bonus.

10.5 sal 3m roster
10m sal 3.5 roster
10m sal 3m roster

6yr 80m with the guarantee money he's looking for plus the club protection added. Not so hard. The contract can be worth more by adding snaps bonus and probowl incentive as well as report to camp bonus.I thnk something you are not bringing up is roster bonus is not good for the player. Much better for Mario to get upfront money or fully guaranteed salary.

dalemurphy
02-15-2012, 12:23 PM
I thnk something you are not bringing up is roster bonus is not good for the player. Much better for Mario to get upfront money or fully guaranteed salary.

Good point. Another thing that is missed is that the signing bonus actually guarantees much of the salary (essentially).

In other words, if Mario is given a $36 million signing bonus in a six year deal, the Texans wouldn't be able to cut him until the fourth or fifth year, even if they wanted to. Otherwise, all that money would rush into one cap year.

infantrycak
02-15-2012, 01:05 PM
One more time, that is what I've said. Upfront bonus is prorated over the contract and non bonus guaranteed $ is base salary.

I thnk something you are not bringing up is roster bonus is not good for the player. Much better for Mario to get upfront money or fully guaranteed salary.

"Up front" bonus can come in the form of either a signing bonus or roster bonus. Roster bonuses are not frequently used because the teams want to prorate the money. But where teams have the cap space they will do it such as when Antoine Winfield signed with the Vikings.

badboy
02-15-2012, 01:27 PM
"Up front" bonus can come in the form of either a signing bonus or roster bonus. Roster bonuses are not frequently used because the teams want to prorate the money. But where teams have the cap space they will do it such as when Antoine Winfield signed with the Vikings.Agreed but still not a plus for player which we have to consider with Mario. He may agree as he did the first time but that will surprise me a bit.

Just curious on your take as why a team would pay a roster bonus before player "makes" the annual roster?

Dutchrudder
02-15-2012, 02:02 PM
Pepper deal was different because it happened in an un capped world. That's why they paid his money in 2 installments. Even if 40m is the magic number,that's still not hard to do with a 1st 3yr guarantee.

While it may be a capped year, teams like the Jaguars have upwards of 60 million dollars in capspace this year. The cap really won't have much effect on those teams this year and gives them the opportunity to pay huge sums of salary up front. Here's a partial list of 2011 rollover capspace that teams will have at their disposal in this free agency:

Jaguars: $31.66 million.

Broncos: $27.88 million.

Buccaneers: $25.05 million.

Chiefs: $24.01 million.

Seahawks: $21.27 million.

Bills: $19.29 million.

Bengals: $17.59 million.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1900571&posted=1#post1900571

Now double those numbers and you have the cap space available to each team due to rollover from 2011 before the 2012 free agents are removed from their rosters. That is an insane amount of money for those teams to use to get a guy like Mario or even Arian Foster. None of those teams will need to structure a deal like the one you're proposing, the Jags, Broncos or Bucs could easily give Mario 25 million in year 1 and still have money leftover from their 2011 cap. That's almost double year 1 of your proposed deal, and that's why I don't think we will have a chance to re-sign him with the one you propose. 13 mill a year with no signing bonus isn't going to cut it if he hits free agency. The only way the Texans can compete with those huge numbers is to increase the guaranteed money to 50-60 mill or give him a huge signing bonus to assure him that he will get that money and be with the team in years 4,5,6,7.

infantrycak
02-15-2012, 02:52 PM
Just curious on your take as why a team would pay a roster bonus before player "makes" the annual roster?

Well just to continue the Antoine Winfield example the Vikings carried over a bunch of not likely to be earned cap space from the prior season. They knew they wanted Winfield and could take the one year roster bonus hit and not prorating freed up space on the later years.

badboy
02-15-2012, 02:56 PM
Well just to continue the Antoine Winfield example the Vikings carried over a bunch of not likely to be earned cap space from the prior season. They knew they wanted Winfield and could take the one year roster bonus hit and not prorating freed up space on the later years.Understood. Have you posted your thoughts on Mario being gone or re-signed?

badboy
02-15-2012, 04:09 PM
I think Atlanta should send us a draft pick for allowing DR to go.

Allstar
02-15-2012, 04:27 PM
I think Atlanta should send us a draft pick for allowing DR to go.

It'd be more fair if we gave them a draft pick for taking Dunta off of our hands.

Dutchrudder
02-15-2012, 04:49 PM
What say we sign Mario to a $6M cap number for 2012. Leaving us $11M to work with. Sign Arian, sign Myers, sign Brisiel, sign Nicks, Then the 3 best WRs we can get in the draft.

Sign Mario to 5 years, $58M with a $25M signing bonus
2012 - $1M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2013 - $5M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2014 - $7M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2015 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2016 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)

So that's a total value of $78M over 5 years ($15.6M/yr) but he's got to earn it.

Change the playoffs and AFCC bonuses to salary and he might go for it. Team based incentives are rarely used on players that aren't the QB. Or change those to some other individual incentives like "start 14 or more games that season", "voted to All-pro team", "Super Bowl MVP" or "40+ tackles". Something that puts the incentive directly on him in games rather than the team's performance.

centexfan
02-15-2012, 05:32 PM
This comes directly from a video editor in the Texans scouting department posting on another site earlier today:

"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario. Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."

and...

"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall."

Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.

Dutchrudder
02-15-2012, 05:41 PM
This comes directly from a video editor in the Texans scouting department posting on another site earlier today:

"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario. Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."

and...

"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall."

Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.

Sounds pretty accurate to me. This is Mario's big payday and he has earned it. He's not going to leave tens of millions on the table to stay with the Texans. I expect him to be the highest paid defensive player in the league next year, if not top 5 at the very least. The Texans simply can't compete with that.

I'm surprised John Abraham would be a target of the Texans though, I'm pretty sure he has always be a 4-3 DE and is about 35. Doesn't seem like the right kind of guy to come in and convert to OLB. Avril would be nice, but I think he will be a bit expensive. Might be able to snag him for reasonable money.

Texn4life
02-15-2012, 05:46 PM
This comes directly from a video editor in the Texans scouting department posting on another site earlier today:

"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario. Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."

and...

"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall."

Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.

Do you have a link? Not calling bull or anything on him, but when did personnel departments start evaluating based on a "highlight film" in essence?

Dutchrudder
02-15-2012, 05:55 PM
Do you have a link? Not calling bull or anything on him, but when did personnel departments start evaluating based on a "highlight film" in essence?

It's probably so they can quickly view their pass rush moves more than anything. Both of them are 4-3 DEs though, so they might be looking more to see if either could convert to OLB or 3-4 DE.

Texn4life
02-15-2012, 06:02 PM
It's probably so they can quickly view their pass rush moves more than anything. Both of them are 4-3 DEs though, so they might be looking more to see if either could convert to OLB or 3-4 DE.

Makes enough sense I guess. I just don't see how you can make that determination by just viewing nothing but positive plays. I know its not how its done through the college scouting department, but I'm not really familiar with the pro personnel side.

centexfan
02-15-2012, 06:12 PM
Makes enough sense I guess. I just don't see how you can make that determination by just viewing nothing but positive plays. I know its not how its done through the college scouting department, but I'm not really familiar with the pro personnel side.

I'm headed off to work--but I'll send ya a link to the conversation if it's that important when I get back. I was reticent to post a link cause I didn't want this to turn into something the guy might regret. His name is his handle and the specific info makes it easy enough to figure out who he is even without a name. It's obvious he's nobody in the know--just a kid that's having the time of his life doing the bidding of higher ups and wanted to share with texans fans on a small message board. And they had him compile the aforementioned plays for review by somebody unmentioned on the texans staff. Interesting stuff.

Texn4life
02-15-2012, 06:14 PM
I'm headed off to work--but I'll send ya a link to the conversation if it's that important when I get back. I was reticent to post a link cause I didn't want this to turn into something the guy might regret. His name is his handle and the specific info makes it easy enough to figure out who he is even without a name. It's obvious he's nobody in the know--just a kid that's having the time of his life doing the bidding of higher ups and wanted to share with texans fans on a small message board. And they had him compile the aforementioned plays for review by somebody unmentioned on the texans staff. Interesting stuff.

Definitely don't want to get anyone in trouble...... so its no biggie. Thanks for the info.

thunderkyss
02-15-2012, 06:32 PM
Yes the Texans can offer him the type of deal you proposed, no I don't think it is comparable to what other teams will offer. Go look at the Julius Peppers deal if you want to get some perspective, he's the most recent example of a comparable player. His guaranteed money was paid by the end of his second year and then some.

Peppers (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/19740/peppers-contract-details) didn't get a bonus & his money wasn't guaranteed over 2 years
If he plays the entire length of the deal, Peppers will receive at last $84 million. The base salaries in each of his first three seasons are guaranteed, for a total of $40.5 million. He'll have a chance to earn an additional $7.5 million in incentives, for a possible total of $91.5 million over the length of the deal.

Here are Peppers (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/19740/peppers-contract-details)' annual base salaries:
2010: $20 million
2011: $11.5 million
2012: $9 million
2013: $13 million
2014: $14 million
2015: $16.5 million
TOTAL: $84 million

He got the $20M for the 2010 season, the uncapped season.
The Chicago Bears restructured (http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-03-04/julius-peppers-contract-restructured-by-chicago-bears) the contract of defensive end Julius Peppers to save almost $8 million in salary cap space for the 2011 season, ESPN reported.

Peppers was due a $10.5 million roster bonus this year under the terms of his original six-year, $91.5 million contract. The Bears restructured the contract to reduce his salary cap number from $12 million to $4.3 million while anticipating the re-establishment of the salary cap under a new collective bargaining agreement.



So in 2 years, Peppers collected $32M in two years, leaving $9M guaranteed left to be paid in 2012. 2013, his cap number will be $15M if he plays, $6M dead money. If they need it, they can cut Peppers before the 2013 season & save $9M in cap money.

I'm a Mario fan. But if he leaves because we offer him $36M guaranteed over 3 years instead of $40M ($1.33M/yr difference) then he doesn't want to be a Texan. If someone offers him $45M guaranteed over 3 years ($3M/yr difference) then more power to him.

Dutchrudder
02-15-2012, 06:56 PM
Peppers (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/19740/peppers-contract-details) didn't get a bonus & his money wasn't guaranteed over 2 years


He got the $20M for the 2010 season, the uncapped season.


So in 2 years, Peppers collected $32M in two years, leaving $9M guaranteed left to be paid in 2012. 2013, his cap number will be $15M if he plays, $6M dead money. If they need it, they can cut Peppers before the 2013 season & save $9M in cap money.

I'm a Mario fan. But if he leaves because we offer him $36M guaranteed over 3 years instead of $40M ($1.33M/yr difference) then he doesn't want to be a Texan. If someone offers him $45M guaranteed over 3 years ($3M/yr difference) then more power to him.

Ok, well there does seem to be some conflicting reports about his contract. Rotoworld says this:

3/5/2010: Signed a six-year, $84 million contract. The deal contains $42 million guaranteed, including a $6.5 million signing bonus and a first-year roster bonus of $12.5 million. Another $7.5 million is available through incentives based on sacks, Pro Bowl berths, and Defensive Player of the Year awards. Peppers can earn annual $100,000 workout bonuses in years one through five. 2011: $900,000 (+ $10.5 million "signing" bonus), 2012: $8.9 million, 2013: $12.9 million, 2014: $13.9 million, 2015: $16.5 million, 2016: Free Agent
http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/chi/bears

It looks to me like he got the 20 million in 2010 along with a signing bonus of 6.5 mill. Then he got another 11.5 million in 2011, but 10.5 of that was converted from a roster bonus to a signing bonus, which is prorated over the last 5 years a 2.1 mill a year. That's a total of 37 mill of his 42 guaranteed paid so far. He's scheduled to make 9 mill in 2012, which would put his total at 46 million after three years + any incentives he earns. So if those numbers are right, the first 3 years are guaranteed, and he will get a little more than that by staying on the roster.

The problem then becomes the ~3.2 million in signing bonus that is now prorated over the last 4 years of the deal. Thats a lot of cash to have in dead money if they cut him before the 2013 season. 9.6 million in dead money to cut him next offseason makes it tough to let him go, but he will count about 16 mill against the cap. Tough spot for a GM, but great spot for a player.

thunderkyss
02-15-2012, 07:12 PM
It looks to me like he got the 20 million in 2010 along with a signing bonus of 6.5 mill. Then he got another 11.5 million in 2011, but 10.5 of that was converted from a roster bonus to a signing bonus, which is prorated over the last 5 years a 2.1 mill a year. That's a total of 37 mill of his 42 guaranteed paid so far. He's scheduled to make 9 mill in 2012, which would put his total at 46 million after three years + any incentives he earns. So if those numbers are right, the first 3 years are guaranteed, and he will get a little more than that by staying on the roster.


So... that brings us back to what is Mario worth. We were looking at someone's offer, $36M guaranteed over the first 3 years. Thats $3.3M/yr difference from what Peppers will make. Don't forget that includes an uncapped year.

My deal, I'm (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) offering Mario $38M guaranteed in the first 3 years. $2.6M/yr difference. Like Peppers, there is a lot of money in there, $6M/yr that Mario can make if he & the team performs well over the first three years. Over the first two years of the contract, Mario can earn $42M..... that's pretty comparable. Plus my deal would keep Mario on the team at least through the first 4 years.

So, it's very "similar" & "affordable"

redwhiteblue
02-15-2012, 07:58 PM
This comes directly from a video editor in the Texans scouting department posting on another site earlier today:

"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario. Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."

and...

"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall."

Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.

Thanks for sharing the insight. I don't think gathering tape of free agents means they have moved on from Mario or is any indication that he won't sign, it just sounds like a professional team doing its homework

Dutchrudder
02-15-2012, 07:59 PM
So... that brings us back to what is Mario worth. We were looking at someone's offer, $36M guaranteed over the first 3 years. Thats $3.3M/yr difference from what Peppers will make. Don't forget that includes an uncapped year.

3.3 million per year sounds small, but that's actually 10 million total over the first 3 years. That's a big discount for Mario to give, and I don't think he will be willing to do it. As I said earlier in this thread, a half dozen other teams have 40+ million in cap space this year and it will be like an uncapped year for them. The Texans won't be able to win a bidding war if it comes to that. I won't be the least bit shocked to see Mario get a 6 year 100 million dollar deal.

My deal, I'm (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) offering Mario $38M guaranteed in the first 3 years. $2.6M/yr difference. Like Peppers, there is a lot of money in there, $6M/yr that Mario can make if he & the team performs well over the first three years. Over the first two years of the contract, Mario can earn $42M..... that's pretty comparable. Plus my deal would keep Mario on the team at least through the first 4 years.

So, it's very "similar" & "affordable"

If you're talking about your proposed deal from this post:


Sign Mario to 5 years, $58M with a $25M signing bonus
2012 - $1M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2013 - $5M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2014 - $7M
+ $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2015 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)
2016 - $7M
+ $3M Roster Bonus + $2M (12 sacks) + $2M (play-offs)+ $2M (AFC Championship game)

So that's a total value of $78M over 5 years ($15.6M/yr) but he's got to earn it.

...then no, it's not that similar. Peppers doesn't have 30 million tied up in incentives and 6 more in roster bonuses. Your deal (if I'm reading this right) offers 27 million in salary and 25 mil in signing bonuses over 5 years + 36 mill in potential incentives. That's an average of 10.4 million base salary over the whole contract. I don't think Mario is going to go for that. That's why in the other post I said you should change the team incentives to salary or reasonable individual incentives. Adding that 20 mill in salary would make the average 14.4 million before roster bonuses and sack incentives, but increases the value of the contract to 72 million. The total could be up to 88 million over 5 years for an average of 17.6 million, which seems out of the Texans' range to me.

Texan_Bill
02-15-2012, 09:09 PM
Re: What to do with Mario?

I've said it before... Mario, sign a "cap" friendly deal with the Texans -or- don't let the door hit ya, where the good Lord hit ya!! (BTW, I'm on record as being someone that like Mario... a lot.... and wants him to be a Texan).

At the end of the day, I can see him signing with Carolina.

mussop
02-15-2012, 09:41 PM
This comes directly from a video editor in the Texans scouting department posting on another site earlier today:

"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario.1 Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."

and...

2"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall.

Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.

1. According to McLain Routt isn't coming here. Said he was told that by Texans.

2. How did he come to that conclusion? I think the fans and media are have gotten carried away with this OPINION. Sounds like he is full of it.

leebigeztx
02-15-2012, 09:47 PM
I'm headed off to work--but I'll send ya a link to the conversation if it's that important when I get back. I was reticent to post a link cause I didn't want this to turn into something the guy might regret. His name is his handle and the specific info makes it easy enough to figure out who he is even without a name. It's obvious he's nobody in the know--just a kid that's having the time of his life doing the bidding of higher ups and wanted to share with texans fans on a small message board. And they had him compile the aforementioned plays for review by somebody unmentioned on the texans staff. Interesting stuff.

I'm going to call bs on ur video guy and I'm going to tell you why. John abraham has never been able to play 3-4 despite his obvious build suited. Go look at hislast yr with the jets and there is a reason he was traded to atl. Averill , whom I like just got his groove going on a team where he is not the focus either. So yeah,I think its bs.

In other news, I talked with gil brandt on nfl radio and he said right now, the texans 53 man roster is at 112m of a possible 121m. That's including mario and his 17m cap hold. they have the money to do a deal and retain players and be active in free agent market. I really wish some people will understand roster bonus guaranteed is the same as signing bonus. No team in the league can afford to cut a plaer in the 1st 3 yrs of a deal without severe cap ramifications. Bad boy,dalemurphy and others, the gauranted 1st 3yrs of a deal which gives a roster bonus is given 1st day of new calender yr in nfl. So no matter what,player get their guaranteed money.

infantrycak
02-15-2012, 10:07 PM
I'm going to call bs on ur video guy and I'm going to tell you why. John abraham has never been able to play 3-4 despite his obvious build suited. Go look at hislast yr with the jets and there is a reason he was traded to atl. Averill , whom I like just got his groove going on a team where he is not the focus either. So yeah,I think its bs.

I am also dubious of that report. If you had that position you would have to be stupid to get that in public because the Texans will know who it was.

I really wish some people will understand roster bonus guaranteed is the same as signing bonus.

Not exactly. Roster bonus is not prorated while signing bonus is prorated.

Texn4life
02-15-2012, 10:46 PM
I'm going to call bs on ur video guy and I'm going to tell you why. John abraham has never been able to play 3-4 despite his obvious build suited. Go look at hislast yr with the jets and there is a reason he was traded to atl. Averill , whom I like just got his groove going on a team where he is not the focus either. So yeah,I think its bs.

In other news, I talked with gil brandt on nfl radio and he said right now, the texans 53 man roster is at 112m of a possible 121m. That's including mario and his 17m cap hold. they have the money to do a deal and retain players and be active in free agent market. I really wish some people will understand roster bonus guaranteed is the same as signing bonus. No team in the league can afford to cut a plaer in the 1st 3 yrs of a deal without severe cap ramifications. Bad boy,dalemurphy and others, the gauranted 1st 3yrs of a deal which gives a roster bonus is given 1st day of new calender yr in nfl. So no matter what,player get their guaranteed money.

I have my doubts about the legitimacy of it as well, but for other reasons. It doesn't really matter one way or another. The combine can't get here soon enough though so there will be more to talk about.

leebigeztx
02-15-2012, 11:26 PM
I am also dubious of that report. If you had that position you would have to be stupid to get that in public because the Texans will know who it was.



Not exactly. Roster bonus is not prorated while signing bonus is prorated.

That's only if they choose to. They can give a 36m signing bonus and put it in the 1st 3 yrs and have it paid for. Teams prorate the signing bonus to stretch it out,but its the same.

ObsiWan
02-16-2012, 09:34 AM
While it may be a capped year, teams like the Jaguars have upwards of 60 million dollars in capspace this year. The cap really won't have much effect on those teams this year and gives them the opportunity to pay huge sums of salary up front. Here's a partial list of 2011 rollover capspace that teams will have at their disposal in this free agency:

Jaguars: $31.66 million.
Broncos: $27.88 million.
Buccaneers: $25.05 million.
Chiefs: $24.01 million.
Seahawks: $21.27 million.
Bills: $19.29 million.
Bengals: $17.59 million.


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1900571&posted=1#post1900571

Now double those numbers and you have the cap space available to each team due to rollover from 2011 before the 2012 free agents are removed from their rosters. That is an insane amount of money for those teams to use to get a guy like Mario or even Arian Foster. None of those teams will need to structure a deal like the one you're proposing, the Jags, Broncos or Bucs could easily give Mario 25 million in year 1 and still have money leftover from their 2011 cap. That's almost double year 1 of your proposed deal, and that's why I don't think we will have a chance to re-sign him with the one you propose. 13 mill a year with no signing bonus isn't going to cut it if he hits free agency. The only way the Texans can compete with those huge numbers is to increase the guaranteed money to 50-60 mill or give him a huge signing bonus to assure him that he will get that money and be with the team in years 4,5,6,7.

It is true, as you point out, that those teams have lots of cap space available. But it is also true that all those teams - with the possible exception of the Bengals - all SUCK. If you add the Texans to that list of prospective landing spots, it's obvious to me that we are the only team among them with a realistic shot at sniffing the Super Bowl in the near future. And I'd be amazed if having a legit shot at making the Super Bowl doesn't factor into his decision. He wouldn't be the first guy to "leave money on the table" in order to play with a winner.... even at his young age.

Maybe Mario will be all about the benjamins as some of you think. But I think (maybe "hope" is more accurate) staying with - and contributing to - a playoff team (maybe a SB team) has to mean as much as stuffing his bank acc't as full as he possibly can.

badboy
02-16-2012, 09:57 AM
This comes directly from a video editor in the Texans scouting department posting on another site earlier today:

"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario. Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."

and...

"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall."

Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.But, but John McClain said Texans had nothing lined up to visit with Routt & could not afford to sign any FAs other than some of their own!

On serious note, I really like Vinny Curry who could be there #58. Not sure I want any WR that will be there at #26 (Alshon Jeffery). Wright may be gone per several mocks I reviewed yesterday. Hmmm, Peter Konz 1st, VInny Curry 2nd (if Mario gone) & trade back into 2nd for Dwight Jones WR? 4th round Jordan WHite?

GP
02-16-2012, 10:02 AM
I'm going to call bs on ur video guy.

Me too.

If a guy did that, he's done. Fired. And possibly neutered during the exit interview.

No way would a scout guy reveal that information on the Internet. He might as well contact all 31 teams and tell them who we are targeting in free agency and our plans for the draft while he's at it.

GP
02-16-2012, 10:06 AM
On serious not, I really like Vinny Curry who could be there #58. Not sure I want any WR that will be there at #26 (Alshon Jeffery). Wright may be gone per several mocks I reviewed yesterday. Hmmm, Peter Konz 1st, VInny Curry 2nd (if Mario gone) & trade back into 2nd for Dwight Jones WR? 4th round Jordan WHite?

Is Konz good enough to be a first rounder? I mean, that's spending your first round pick on a center....which is not a sexy pick, and he's gotta' have the goods as our future center to spend the pick there.

And Curry is from Marshall, IIRC. I have not seen any highlight material on the guy, but he's from....Marshall. What big-time, talent-loaded teams have they played and what has he done against them? Because drafting a guy in an early round, out of a small college, is always a risk IMO.

Michael Floyd, WR Notre Dame. Is he projected to be off the board before our pick?

Rey
02-16-2012, 10:21 AM
Me too.

If a guy did that, he's done. Fired. And possibly neutered during the exit interview.

No way would a scout guy reveal that information on the Internet. He might as well contact all 31 teams and tell them who we are targeting in free agency and our plans for the draft while he's at it.

I don't know anything about the video, but we've seen people do stupid things to lose their jobs before...

badboy
02-16-2012, 10:23 AM
I'm going to call bs on ur video guy and I'm going to tell you why. John abraham has never been able to play 3-4 despite his obvious build suited. Go look at hislast yr with the jets and there is a reason he was traded to atl. Averill , whom I like just got his groove going on a team where he is not the focus either. So yeah,I think its bs.

In other news, I talked with gil brandt on nfl radio and he said right now, the texans 53 man roster is at 112m of a possible 121m. That's including mario and his 17m cap hold. they have the money to do a deal and retain players and be active in free agent market. I really wish some people will understand roster bonus guaranteed is the same as signing bonus. No team in the league can afford to cut a plaer in the 1st 3 yrs of a deal without severe cap ramifications. Bad boy,dalemurphy and others, the gauranted 1st 3yrs of a deal which gives a roster bonus is given 1st day of new calender yr in nfl. So no matter what,player get their guaranteed money.So your saying a "roster bonus" is paid January1st? My understanding is a "roster bonus" is just that; player is on roster day 1 of "NFL season" player gets the full roster bonus. Your gonna have to provide something to support that.

On the bold that is more my understanding of team situation. $9m under cap; Mario's cap of $17m can be added if he leaves & the other 2012 Texans FAs cap would be same. I have frequently posted that Texans can sign their guys and be a player in free agency if they get friendly deals done with their own.

badboy
02-16-2012, 10:46 AM
Is Konz good enough to be a first rounder? I mean, that's spending your first round pick on a center....which is not a sexy pick, and he's gotta' have the goods as our future center to spend the pick there.

And Curry is from Marshall, IIRC. I have not seen any highlight material on the guy, but he's from....Marshall. What big-time, talent-loaded teams have they played and what has he done against them? Because drafting a guy in an early round, out of a small college, is always a risk IMO.

Michael Floyd, WR Notre Dame. Is he projected to be off the board before our pick?Good questions, GP. Konz has been reported as a true center that is a mid round first. My plan is to draft Wright & pick up a C/OG like TBob Hebert in 7th as Myers should be re-signed and seldoms misses a game. I threw Konz into conversation because Wright has moved up into teens on some boards I reviewed yesterday. I think Konz could adapt to OG also & maybe beat out Wade Smith during next season. Floyd is a very good WR but the 3 alcohol related issues should keep him away from Texans. Besides he again is mocked before #26. I'm not a fan of Alshon Jeffery but I respect my mock partner Beerlover who thinks if he was the pick AJ and others could keep him in line.

You just have to watch Curry play as he did in Senior's Bowl. He plays all over the field like Alabama's Courtney Upshaw. I prefer Ingram but he is a high first.

badboy
02-16-2012, 10:47 AM
I don't know anything about the video, but we've seen people do stupid things to lose their jobs before...I don't think he is a scout just a video guy.

Dutchrudder
02-16-2012, 03:23 PM
It is true, as you point out, that those teams have lots of cap space available. But it is also true that all those teams - with the possible exception of the Bengals - all SUCK. If you add the Texans to that list of prospective landing spots, it's obvious to me that we are the only team among them with a realistic shot at sniffing the Super Bowl in the near future. And I'd be amazed if having a legit shot at making the Super Bowl doesn't factor into his decision. He wouldn't be the first guy to "leave money on the table" in order to play with a winner.... even at his young age.

Maybe Mario will be all about the benjamins as some of you think. But I think (maybe "hope" is more accurate) staying with - and contributing to - a playoff team (maybe a SB team) has to mean as much as stuffing his bank acc't as full as he possibly can.

I think realistically, the best the Texans can offer Mario is about 10 mill a year average. The reason being that we have to re-sign Myers and Foster to good deals, and then we have Duane Brown, Barwin, Cushing and Schaub as unrestricted free agents in 2013. Each of those guys will command a good amount of money if we want to keep them and I think each will be crucial to the future success of this team, moreso than Mario. However each of those guys are on relatively small value deals, so there won't be as much money to work with unless the cap expands dramatically. If we re-sign Mario for 12+ mill a year, I think it basically guarantees that we lose at least one of those 4 guys, maybe two depending on the deal.

If Mario wants to win a Super Bowl, then yeah the Texans are a good team for that. But if he's willing to give us a discount for that reason, maybe he's willing to do the same for the Pats, Saints or Packers. I think each of those teams is more likely to win in 2012 than the Texans due to their QB.

infantrycak
02-16-2012, 03:44 PM
So your saying a "roster bonus" is paid January1st? My understanding is a "roster bonus" is just that; player is on roster day 1 of "NFL season" player gets the full roster bonus. Your gonna have to provide something to support that.

The day a roster bonus is due is between the player and the team. Continuing the Antoine Winfield example they wrote his contract so a roster bonus was due the day he signed his contract which was an arbitrary day.

thunderkyss
02-16-2012, 04:55 PM
I think realistically, the best the Texans can offer Mario is about 10 mill a year average. The reason being that we have to re-sign Myers and Foster to good deals, and then we have Duane Brown, Barwin, Cushing and Schaub as unrestricted free agents in 2013. Each of those guys will command a good amount of money if we want to keep them and I think each will be crucial to the future success of this team, moreso than Mario. However each of those guys are on relatively small value deals, so there won't be as much money to work with unless the cap expands dramatically. If we re-sign Mario for 12+ mill a year, I think it basically guarantees that we lose at least one of those 4 guys, maybe two depending on the deal.

If Mario wants to win a Super Bowl, then yeah the Texans are a good team for that. But if he's willing to give us a discount for that reason, maybe he's willing to do the same for the Pats, Saints or Packers. I think each of those teams is more likely to win in 2012 than the Texans due to their QB.

I've heard the cap from 2013 on may be as high as $180M, That's $60M more than it's expected to be for the 2012 season. Not saying we don't need to worry about Mario's cap hit beyond the 2012 season, but a $10M cap number for 2012 is what I'd be looking for, 2013 & beyond, that number can go as high as $16M & (imo) not affect our ability to resign Matt, Cushing, Brown, Barwin, Foster, or any other FA.

The cap will go up, the 53 man roster won't. Those 53 will be able to earn more money.

badboy
02-16-2012, 05:23 PM
The day a roster bonus is due is between the player and the team. Continuing the Antoine Winfield example they wrote his contract so a roster bonus was due the day he signed his contract which was an arbitrary day.Trying to get this in my mind...isn't that a signing bonus? Guess you can call it whatever. I would not recommend any bonus to a player like that unless he was a borderline guy (history of injuries, age, etc). Thanks for the info.

badboy
02-16-2012, 05:25 PM
I've heard the cap from 2013 on may be as high as $180M, That's $60M more than it's expected to be for the 2012 season. Not saying we don't need to worry about Mario's cap hit beyond the 2012 season, but a $10M cap number for 2012 is what I'd be looking for, 2013 & beyond, that number can go as high as $16M & (imo) not affect our ability to resign Matt, Cushing, Brown, Barwin, Foster, or any other FA.

The cap will go up, the 53 man roster won't. Those 53 will be able to earn more money.Agree but at some point even with huge rise in cap, you have to have salary fit the player. I would sign off on Mario's first year at 10 but it better not climb much as contract progresses.

ChampionTexan
02-16-2012, 05:51 PM
Trying to get this in my mind...isn't that a signing bonus? Guess you can call it whatever. I would not recommend any bonus to a player like that unless he was a borderline guy (history of injuries, age, etc). Thanks for the info.

It's semantics, and completely driven by cap managment. A roster bonus applies to only one year, and therefore, is included in it's entirety on that year's cap. A signing bonus applies to the entire life of the contract, and is prorated over all (remaining) years left in that contract. Depending on the circumstances, either one could be to the team's advantage, and because both are a lump sum payment, the player is really indifferent.

For example, part of what the Steelers did with Lawrence Timmons earlier this month was take a roster bonus due in the second year of the contract (2012) and convert it to a signing bonus (along with a significant portion of his second year base salary). So what you ended up with was an amount that was originally going to hit the 2012 cap being modified so only 20% of it hits the 2012 cap with another 20% hitting each year from 2013 - 2016 (it was originally a six year contract). Neither the timing or the amount of what was originally called a roster bonus changed at all, yet the cap ramifications are drastically different.

leebigeztx
02-16-2012, 07:46 PM
Badboy, I've read a lot of ur posts and its baffling that you're not understanding roster bonus concept. When a team guarantees 36m, it can be in the form of roster bonus and salary in the 1st 3 yrs because no team will cut that player in that time frame. So let's do this again. 6 yrs 72m 36m guaranteed in 1st 3 yrs. Basically , 12m per, 1st 3yrs.

6m sal in 17 game checks 6m roster bonus due when new league yr starts. Do this 2 more times and if mario sux or in injured, texans can cut him him without a penalty. If they give a 36m signing bonus and prorate it over the 6 yrs and he sux after 3rd and they cut him,18m is accelerated to the cap for the next 2 yrs. That means 9m per for 2 yrs of dead money. That's why 1st 3yr guarantee is better for the team and just as good for the player.

As I stated before, 53 man roster has 112m of 121m in contracts. That includes mario and his17m. Getting a deal with mario at 13m per gives the texans an extra 4m in cap room. That would give them 13m in cap room b4 any cuts. If they cut cody,walters, and let allen and ward go, they would have 21m cap room. 21m is a lot of cap room to get deals done with myers and foster. Its also enough to do an extension with duanne brown and sign some midlevel fas.

thunderkyss
02-16-2012, 08:42 PM
It's semantics, and completely driven by cap managment. A roster bonus applies to only one year, and therefore, is included in it's entirety on that year's cap. A signing bonus applies to the entire life of the contract, and is prorated over all (remaining) years left in that contract. Depending on the circumstances, either one could be to the team's advantage, and because both are a lump sum payment, the player is really indifferent.


The Roster bonus also adds into that "is guaranteed really guaranteed" debate. I think it is reported as guaranteed, but like Peyton Manning, if he is not on the roster March 8, $28 million of his "guranteed" money isn't paid to him & does not count against the Colts cap for 2012.

dalemurphy
02-16-2012, 08:53 PM
Badboy, I've read a lot of ur posts and its baffling that you're not understanding roster bonus concept. When a team guarantees 36m, it can be in the form of roster bonus and salary in the 1st 3 yrs because no team will cut that player in that time frame. So let's do this again. 6 yrs 72m 36m guaranteed in 1st 3 yrs. Basically , 12m per, 1st 3yrs.

6m sal in 17 game checks 6m roster bonus due when new league yr starts. Do this 2 more times and if mario sux or in injured, texans can cut him him without a penalty. If they give a 36m signing bonus and prorate it over the 6 yrs and he sux after 3rd and they cut him,18m is accelerated to the cap for the next 2 yrs. That means 9m per for 2 yrs of dead money. That's why 1st 3yr guarantee is better for the team and just as good for the player.

As I stated before, 53 man roster has 112m of 121m in contracts. That includes mario and his17m. Getting a deal with mario at 13m per gives the texans an extra 4m in cap room. That would give them 13m in cap room b4 any cuts. If they cut cody,walters, and let allen and ward go, they would have 21m cap room. 21m is a lot of cap room to get deals done with myers and foster. Its also enough to do an extension with duanne brown and sign some midlevel fas.

Roster bonuses aren't guaranteed... not like a signing bonus.

A signing bonus is given all at once.... Done!

A roster bonus is dependent on making the roster. Any roster bonus can be avoided by cutting a player before the date of the bonus. Peyton Manning's contract situation is a perfect example of that.

Your original example had Mario getting a roster bonus each year, spread over 6 years. Those are not guaranteed because the Texans could cut him at any point and be free of all the subsequent bonuses. In other words, Mario would never get that money and the Texans would not suffer cap ramifications for cutting him. If they can set up a deal like that with Mario, then I would be thrilled. I don't see it happening, though. A guy with his injury issues but still coveted by the NFL should (and likely is) looking for a monster signing bonus... and, he will likely be able to get it.

thunderkyss
02-16-2012, 09:12 PM
If they can set up a deal like that with Mario, then I would be thrilled. I don't see it happening, though. A guy with his injury issues but still coveted by the NFL should (and likely is) looking for a monster signing bonus... and, he will likely be able to get it.

meh..... Mario may not see himself as "injury prone" in fact, he may be thinking the Texans prematurely IR'd him in 2011. I "heard" he was able to play Wild-card weekend, but couldn't.

I wonder how much sooner he "could have" played.

ChampionTexan
02-16-2012, 10:21 PM
Roster bonuses aren't guaranteed... not like a signing bonus.

A signing bonus is given all at once.... Done!

A roster bonus is dependent on making the roster. Any roster bonus can be avoided by cutting a player before the date of the bonus. Peyton Manning's contract situation is a perfect example of that.

Your original example had Mario getting a roster bonus each year, spread over 6 years. Those are not guaranteed because the Texans could cut him at any point and be free of all the subsequent bonuses. In other words, Mario would never get that money and the Texans would not suffer cap ramifications for cutting him. If they can set up a deal like that with Mario, then I would be thrilled. I don't see it happening, though. A guy with his injury issues but still coveted by the NFL should (and likely is) looking for a monster signing bonus... and, he will likely be able to get it.

Just like most any other component of an NFL contract, a roster bonus can be guaranteed, and it can be guaranteed for injury, skill or both.

Take for example Stanford Routt:

The Raiders cut Routt on Thursday to avoid a full guarantee of $5 million in base salary for 2012. (Routt will still receive a $5 million fully guaranteed roster bonus in March.)

LINK (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/more-teams-lining-up-for-stanford-routt/)

dalemurphy
02-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Just like most any other component of an NFL contract, a roster bonus can be guaranteed, and it can be guaranteed for injury, skill or both.

Take for example Stanford Routt:



LINK (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/more-teams-lining-up-for-stanford-routt/)

Then, why is that helpful to the Texans? If the thing is guaranteed anyway, regardless of what happens, then there is really no difference regarding the impact on the team or the cap. The only difference would be whether the play sees the money all at once or has to wait for it...

I'm not worried about Bob McNair being cash poor and unable to pay a big signing bonus. I'm concerned about being stuck with a huge contract that the team can't get out from under for a non-essential player, a questionable motor, and an injury history.

ChampionTexan
02-16-2012, 11:31 PM
Then, why is that helpful to the Texans? If the thing is guaranteed anyway, regardless of what happens, then there is really no difference regarding the impact on the team or the cap. The only difference would be whether the play sees the money all at once or has to wait for it...

I'm not worried about Bob McNair being cash poor and unable to pay a big signing bonus. I'm concerned about being stuck with a huge contract that the team can't get out from under for a non-essential player, a questionable motor, and an injury history.

It's helpful in deferring the cap hit to a year the team may be in a better position to absorb it, yet still providing the player with the guaranteed money that's so important.

By guaranteeing a roster bonus for next season (2013), the Texans allow themselves to provide guaranteed money that has zero impact on the 2012 cap, and take advantage of the anticipated increase in the 2013 cap. It also does it in a way that allows them to avoid cap ramifications after the 2013 season (The very thing you're concerned about) by avoiding the dead money that could be the remaining if they end up releasing the player with a year or two (or more) left on his contract. It can also be restructured to a signing bonus with literally zero financial impact on the player if a team does end up needing more cap room in the year of the guaranteed roster bonus (see Lawrence Timmons and his recent restructure with the Steelers).

I'm pretty sure they could guarantee the year 2 base salary and achieve roughly the same goal, but I would guess that from the Texans standpoint, they give themselves additional flexibility by keeping the roster bonus and base salary as two separate components, and from a players standpoint, he can receive the money in one lump sum in March (or June, or August, or whenever), as opposed to 17 weekly pieces starting sometime in Sept.

Kaiser Toro
02-16-2012, 11:38 PM
Before Mario was a fast twitch in Casserly's eye, there was the Moulds' thread.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20305&highlight=moulds

Keep your gas cans filled, we're almost there.

leebigeztx
02-16-2012, 11:50 PM
Roster bonuses aren't guaranteed... not like a signing bonus.

A signing bonus is given all at once.... Done!

A roster bonus is dependent on making the roster. Any roster bonus can be avoided by cutting a player before the date of the bonus. Peyton Manning's contract situation is a perfect example of that.

Your original example had Mario getting a roster bonus each year, spread over 6 years. Those are not guaranteed because the Texans could cut him at any point and be free of all the subsequent bonuses. In other words, Mario would never get that money and the Texans would not suffer cap ramifications for cutting him. If they can set up a deal like that with Mario, then I would be thrilled. I don't see it happening, though. A guy with his injury issues but still coveted by the NFL should (and likely is) looking for a monster signing bonus... and, he will likely be able to get it.

Master of mis information. If you guarantee the 1st 3 yrs of his salary and roster bonus, he gets it regardless. If they guarantee 36m in the 1st 3 yrs and cut himv in the 4th,they owe nothing because he collected 36m guaranteed. Not to be a dick, but maybe you should listen or read guys like gil brandt,pat kirwin,andrew brandt. Those guys were gms and did thousands of contracts through the league. I've had this info breakdown from guys who've actually did contracts. Kirwin was the jets gm,brandt built the cowboys from birth till 89,and the other brandt was over contracts in green bay. Don't listen to guys like mcclain who is a simpleton. I'm just saying.

dalemurphy
02-17-2012, 06:38 AM
Master of mis information. If you guarantee the 1st 3 yrs of his salary and roster bonus, he gets it regardless. If they guarantee 36m in the 1st 3 yrs and cut himv in the 4th,they owe nothing because he collected 36m guaranteed. Not to be a dick, but maybe you should listen or read guys like gil brandt,pat kirwin,andrew brandt. Those guys were gms and did thousands of contracts through the league. I've had this info breakdown from guys who've actually did contracts. Kirwin was the jets gm,brandt built the cowboys from birth till 89,and the other brandt was over contracts in green bay. Don't listen to guys like mcclain who is a simpleton. I'm just saying.

It's funny that you mention Pat Kirwin... He doesn't think the Texans can afford Mario. He and Tim Ryan have been assuming Mario is headed somewhere else. Yesterday, Kirwin was talking about the Texans not being able to sign Foster and, possibly, having to tender him as an RFA, and the possibility of another team signing him away.

Why would Mario accept a deal with roster bonuses instead of one with a signing bonus. The signing bonus is the better deal. The signing bonus is money in the hand. Also, because of its affect on the cap if the Texans were to cut him, it guarantees the majority of his contract will be honored. Your earlier suggested 6 year deal for $73 million is a vastly inferior deal, from a players standpoint than a deal structured this way:

$36 million signing bonus
1. $3 million
2. $4 million
3. $5 million
4. $7 million
5. $8 million
6. $10 million

In this scenario (6yrs and $73 mil), the signing bonus ensures Mario wouldn't get cut until after the 4th year, at the earliest, essentially guaranteeing it to be a minimum contract of 4yrs and $55 mil...

Mario can get that, at minimum, in the open market. The deal you are suggesting (which I would be fine with them offering him) isn't going to be anywhere near the best deal he can get in free agency. Do you think he will give the Texans a discounted rate? Perhaps. I would be surprised though.

srrono
02-17-2012, 08:06 AM
Heres the truth about NFL

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/17/lions-cliff-avril-dismisses-hometown-discounts-hints-at-tampering/

Lions’ Cliff Avril dismisses hometown discounts, hints at tampering

If the Detroit Lions want to keep defensive end Cliff Avril, they’re going to have to put the franchise tag on him or offer him more money than any other team on the open market.

Avril made clear in an interview with SiriusXM NFL Radio that he has no intention of taking less money to stay in Detroit just because the Lions have a good thing going. Instead, he wants the Lions to reward him for being a big part of the good thing they have going. And he hinted that if the Lions aren’t going to do that, other teams have already expressed interest. (He didn’t mention that other teams expressing interest would violate the league’s tampering rules.)

“There’s no such thing as a hometown discount in the NFL,” Avril said, via the Detroit Free Press. “Once you can’t play anymore, they’re going to let you go, so you definitely have to strike gold when you can.”

Avril has said he doesn’t want to be franchised, but he still holds out hope that the Lions will show him the money on a long-term contract. If the Lions don’t do that, Avril suggested that other teams have already made their intentions clear.

“I kind of think the Lions will try to do the right thing, I guess,” he said. “A lot of teams don’t think the Lions will let me hit free agency. But a few teams have called.”

The Detroit Free Press article based on Avril’s SiriusXM interview doesn’t make an issue of those comments, but if teams have called Avril, those teams are breaking NFL rules. The Lions, who were penalized for tampering last year, will surely be curious to know which teams have called one of their players.

“I just want to be paid as one of the guys that’s helping the team grow,” Avril said. “I want to be there. We have a young D-line. But I know it’s a business, and you only hit free agency once or twice in your career, so you definitely have to take advantage of it.”

No one can blame Avril for wanting to take advantage. But the Lions can blame other teams if they’re trying to get an unfair advantage on signing Avril.

badboy
02-17-2012, 11:06 AM
Heres the truth about NFL

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/17/lions-cliff-avril-dismisses-hometown-discounts-hints-at-tampering/

Lions’ Cliff Avril dismisses hometown discounts, hints at tampering

If the Detroit Lions want to keep defensive end Cliff Avril, they’re going to have to put the franchise tag on him or offer him more money than any other team on the open market.

Avril made clear in an interview with SiriusXM NFL Radio that he has no intention of taking less money to stay in Detroit just because the Lions have a good thing going. Instead, he wants the Lions to reward him for being a big part of the good thing they have going. And he hinted that if the Lions aren’t going to do that, other teams have already expressed interest. (He didn’t mention that other teams expressing interest would violate the league’s tampering rules.)

“There’s no such thing as a hometown discount in the NFL,” Avril said, via the Detroit Free Press. “Once you can’t play anymore, they’re going to let you go, so you definitely have to strike gold when you can.”

Avril has said he doesn’t want to be franchised, but he still holds out hope that the Lions will show him the money on a long-term contract. If the Lions don’t do that, Avril suggested that other teams have already made their intentions clear.

“I kind of think the Lions will try to do the right thing, I guess,” he said. “A lot of teams don’t think the Lions will let me hit free agency. But a few teams have called.”

The Detroit Free Press article based on Avril’s SiriusXM interview doesn’t make an issue of those comments, but if teams have called Avril, those teams are breaking NFL rules. The Lions, who were penalized for tampering last year, will surely be curious to know which teams have called one of their players.

“I just want to be paid as one of the guys that’s helping the team grow,” Avril said. “I want to be there. We have a young D-line. But I know it’s a business, and you only hit free agency once or twice in your career, so you definitely have to take advantage of it.”

No one can blame Avril for wanting to take advantage. But the Lions can blame other teams if they’re trying to get an unfair advantage on signing Avril.

Well all that says is he wants money. We all know examples where athletes in many sports have given discounts so it is a false statement.

leebigeztx
02-17-2012, 01:06 PM
It's funny that you mention Pat Kirwin... He doesn't think the Texans can afford Mario. He and Tim Ryan have been assuming Mario is headed somewhere else. Yesterday, Kirwin was talking about the Texans not being able to sign Foster and, possibly, having to tender him as an RFA, and the possibility of another team signing him away.

Why would Mario accept a deal with roster bonuses instead of one with a signing bonus. The signing bonus is the better deal. The signing bonus is money in the hand. Also, because of its affect on the cap if the Texans were to cut him, it guarantees the majority of his contract will be honored. Your earlier suggested 6 year deal for $73 million is a vastly inferior deal, from a players standpoint than a deal structured this way:

$36 million signing bonus
1. $3 million
2. $4 million
3. $5 million
4. $7 million
5. $8 million
6. $10 million

In this scenario (6yrs and $73 mil), the signing bonus ensures Mario wouldn't get cut until after the 4th year, at the earliest, essentially guaranteeing it to be a minimum contract of 4yrs and $55 mil...

Mario can get that, at minimum, in the open market. The deal you are suggesting (which I would be fine with them offering him) isn't going to be anywhere near the best deal he can get in free agency. Do you think he will give the Texans a discounted rate? Perhaps. I would be surprised though.

Since you listen, just call in when you get a chance and pose the question and they will tell you the guarantee 1st 3yrs with salary and roster bonus is the same as a signing bonus. Manning had medical provisions in his contract thats why his roster bonus is being disputed. If they guarantee his 1st 3 yrs of salary and roster bonus thats money in the bank. Thats just as good as a signing bonus. You have the email, hit him and i'm sure he will email you back.

dalemurphy
02-17-2012, 01:24 PM
Since you listen, just call in when you get a chance and pose the question and they will tell you the guarantee 1st 3yrs with salary and roster bonus is the same as a signing bonus. Manning had medical provisions in his contract thats why his roster bonus is being disputed. If they guarantee his 1st 3 yrs of salary and roster bonus thats money in the bank. Thats just as good as a signing bonus. You have the email, hit him and i'm sure he will email you back.

Being promised money is not the same as having it in your account. I'm not sure why you don't understand that. Also, you don't seem to understand the impact of the signing bonus on how the rest of the contract is viewed.

10 out of 10 players would prefer a signing bonus over a roster bonus stretched out over a few years, even if it is guaranteed.

dalemurphy
02-17-2012, 01:32 PM
Since you listen, just call in when you get a chance and pose the question and they will tell you the guarantee 1st 3yrs with salary and roster bonus is the same as a signing bonus. Manning had medical provisions in his contract thats why his roster bonus is being disputed. If they guarantee his 1st 3 yrs of salary and roster bonus thats money in the bank. Thats just as good as a signing bonus. You have the email, hit him and i'm sure he will email you back.

Here's your example:

I posted for mario 6yrs 72m with 36m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs.

1st- 5m sal 5.5m roster bonus
2nd 6m sal 6.5m r. Bonus
3rd 6m sal 7m. r. Bonus
4th 10m sal 2m roster bonus
5th. 9m sal 3m r bonus
6th 8m sal. 4m r bonus


In this example, Mario only receives $10.5 million in his first season compared to $39 million in my example. You are guaranteeing $36 million over a 3 year period. In my example, he would immediately have $36 million in his account. Also, though, and this is the main point... His salaries the next 4 seasons are essentially guaranteed as well because the cap hit if he were cut would destroy the team. So, again, once he signs the deal, he would know he would receive at least $55 million over the first 4yrs and at least $48 million in the first three years... compared to your $36 million through 3 years.

My example of what he should, at minimum, be able to get in the free agent market:

$36 million signing bonus
1. $3 million
2. $4 million
3. $5 million
4. $7 million
5. $8 million
6. $10 million

badboy
02-17-2012, 04:19 PM
I wish Texans cap guyr Chris Olsen would go on tv and give us true figures but that is probably not to team's benefit.

dalemurphy
02-17-2012, 04:32 PM
I wish Texans cap guyr Chris Olsen would go on tv and give us true figures but that is probably not to team's benefit.

He could at least tell us. We could keep a secret.

badboy
02-17-2012, 04:34 PM
He could at least tell us. We could keep a secret.I know I can but I heard some terrible things about you.:smiliedance:

amazing80
02-17-2012, 05:01 PM
here is my take, dont know if it is possible, any capologists out there?


IF we resign him I would MUCH rather give him a big portion of that this season.....we need more room in the future for other players AND we have many contracts currently that escalate with time, we IMO need to give him a HUGE payout in year 1.....

so if we did 6/60

Lets pay him 18M AGAIN this season, take the 3 million allowance (each team can go OVER 120 cap 3 million this season) and apply directly to Mario, freeing up 3 million off cap space for a new deal for myers for this season

year 2 keep it higher, but come down a lot......say to 12 million, thats 30 million in 2 years

break down the rest at 7.5 throughout life of contract

Year 1 - 18 M
Year 2 - 12 M
Years 3-6 - 7.5 EACH

21.5 Million would be guarantees, (35% of it guaranteed), make year one guaranteed and split the rest up throughout life of contract (3.5 million spread out over 5 years), this makes his year one basically like a bonus, he gets 18 M right off the top then it starts to drop and we are not too invested in his guarantees later on


IDK if that makes sense or is even doable, but meh, I like it haha

thunderkyss
02-17-2012, 07:05 PM
21.5 Million would be guarantees, (35% of it guaranteed),

The guarantee is going to have to be closer to $42M.... that's what Peppers got to go to Chicago. He'll actually earn closer to $51M (because of escalators) if he plays a third season in Chicago.

Charles Johnson with the Panthers got $32M guaranteed with a $30M signing bonus. Most likely the first year salary was $2M, so the rest of the contract is not guaranteed. But, since it is a 6 year deal they carry 5M/yr towards the cap. Cutting him in year 2, would cost them $25M towards the cap. Cutting him year 3 would cost them $20M. Cutting him year 4 would leave $15M. Year 5.... $10M, then year 6 (the final year of the contract) would leave $5M of dead money. As long as his cap number does not exceed that dead money, he's pretty much guaranteed to be on that team. With a $72M contract, $12M/avg his cap number would probably exceed the dead money around year 4....

Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.... if the Texans feel good enough about signing Mario to a long term deal, they most likely won't be thinking about cutting him in 3 or 4 years anyway.

There is also a difference between guaranteed & fully guaranteed. Peyton Manning's money wasn't fully guaranteed, he was supposed to earn $69M over the first 3 years of his new contract. Looks like he may not make half of that.

So yeah, you can tell Mario his $36M is fully guaranteed over the first three years, but if I were his financial planner, I'd tell him the interest on $36M in the first year alone would get him a new Ferrari or two.

thunderkyss
02-17-2012, 11:45 PM
Found this earlier

FoxSports (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/02/17/12/Why-the-urgency-to-re-sign-Mario/landing_texans.html?blockID=668194&feedID=3714)

"You have to have good players but you need some great players," said Texans defensive coordinator Wade Phillips.

In praising Williams, Phillips threw in this nugget: "He's gotta chance to be the all-time leader…maybe even break the sack record. Those things are in the future here we hope. I have good feelings about the whole thing."

Lucky
02-18-2012, 12:01 AM
In praising Williams, Phillips threw in this nugget: "He's gotta chance to be the all-time leader…maybe even break the sack record. Those things are in the future here we hope. I have good feelings about the whole thing."

Mario's agent has to have good feelings after Phillips' comments. Way to drive the price up, Wade.

Dutchrudder
02-18-2012, 12:36 AM
Mario's agent has to have good feelings after Phillips' comments. Way to drive the price up, Wade.

I would think his price already out of the Texans budget, but appealing to his potential personal success may make him more inclined to give us a discount. Does he want to stay here and go for records and rings, or go to the highest bidder and waste away the next 5 years in Tampa, Jax, Cleveland or Buffalo? He saw what Wade can do this year, if Wade believes in him maybe he will come back.

srrono
02-18-2012, 12:57 AM
At age 27, Mario Williams has 53 career sacks. Despite the fact he played just five games last season, no current player in the NFL as young as Williams has collected as many sacks in their career.

At the time of his injury in 2011, only three players had more sacks since Williams' rookie year in 2006: DeMarcus Ware, Jared Allen and Trent Cole. All of those players are older than Williams, thus the assertion that Williams could become the NFL's highest paid defensive player during free agency and why the Texans desire to retain him.

Regardless of the complaint by some fans that Williams' motor isn't always revved, he is one of the elite pass rushers in the game. And if you've noticed, Super Bowl champions have two very important things in common these days: Excellent quarterback play and an excellent pass rush.

"You have to have good players, but you need some great players," said Texans defensive coordinator Wade Phillips.

Some fans believe that with the emergence of linebackers Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed, Williams is a very expensive luxury, not a necessity. Phillips begs to differ.

As for Williams' supposed disinterest at times, Phillips said that simply wasn't true even after the season-ending chest injury.

"A lot of guys, when they go on injured reserve, kind of drift away from the team," Phillips said. "He was so supportive all the way through the playoffs."

Williams even addressed his teammates the evening prior to the playoff matchup with the Ravens in a speech Phillips described as "passionate."

Williams has certainly had head-scratching times when those around him wondered about a consistent effort. But he's also had stretches of dominance that can only be displayed by the special ones.

Because Phillips' 3-4 scheme requires an abundance of linebackers, the Texans will have to address that need in free agency if Williams ends up with another team. While Brian Cushing, DeMeco Ryans, Barwin and Reed were terrific, depth became an issue.

"We really didn't have any back-up players … anybody in case they went out," Phillips said.

With nearly a month remaining before the start of free agency, it's simply too soon to determine where Williams will end up. Last year, virtually no one had the Eagles as the team most likely to sign cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha.

Williams appeared genuinely excited when the Texans went to the 3-4 scheme last year, and he was getting more comfortable with the move to linebacker before he suffered the injury which ended his season.

In praising Williams, Phillips threw in this nugget: "He's gotta chance to be the all-time leader … maybe even break the sack record. Those things are in the future here, we hope. I have good feelings about the whole thing."

Bruce Smith is the all-time leader in sacks with 200. To mention Williams in that sort of company may be a sales job by Phillips, but the numbers suggest it's not a wacky prediction. After his first five years, Smith had 57.5 sacks, only 4.5 more than Williams, and Smith played 19 years to put up those numbers.

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/02/17/12/Why-the-urgency-to-re-sign-Williams/landing_texans.html?blockID=668194&feedID=3551

Bulls on Parade
02-18-2012, 01:24 AM
Mario Williams is very important to re-sign or franchise tag. I want him to be around for a full 16 games and playoffs (Super Bowl) in 2012 and 2013. There is no question about the type of value he has, especially with a good defensive coordinator, which he finally got for the first time in his entire career. It would be a real shame for him not to be in Wade Phillips' defensive system.

I don't know about breaking the all-time sack record -- DeMarcus Ware of the Cowboys, another guy Wade Philips got to coach (as a head coach) will probably do it. But Mario Williams is definitely in that conversation with those elite players and Hall of Famers like Bruce Smith. Super Mario will have some 15-20 plus sack seasons if he stays with Wade.

Lucky
02-18-2012, 02:38 AM
Mario Williams is very important to re-sign or franchise tag.
The Texans won't/can't franchise tag Williams. McNair has already said as much. The Texans want Mario back. Wade, Gary, & Bob have all said so. Mario wants to stay, as well. The Texans can make him a good offer, but it won't be the highest offer. The question is, just how crazy will the money offered to Williams get? 9 figures with $40-$50 million guaranteed? I don't know how anyone could turn that down. But if someone could, it would be a player who has already banked $50+million and gets an offer of $30+ million guaranteed from his current team.

Despite all of the doom and gloom, I'm more convinced than ever that Mario is staying.

leebigeztx
02-18-2012, 03:46 AM
Ok dalemurphy, just so we can move to a better place,I'm going to say this and let it die. Pretty much what tk said is my point. No matter what kind of deal mario signs,I think the best way to handle it is a full guarantee in the 1st 3yrs. A full guarantee in the 1st 3 yrs is beneficial to a player of marios age,position,and injury history. Its also good for the team to protect itself from poor play of injury. When you fully guarantee the 1st 3 yrs in the form of salary and roster bonus,there is no dead weight if somethint happens after yr 3. A full guarantee for a player is also beneficial because he has his moneyand he know they can't cut him before 3 yrs also. I don't know if I can make it any simplier than that.

Fully guarantee contracts in the 1st 3 yrs keeps dead money off the books. Unlike signing bonus which is prorated over the life of the deal. The deal you proposed with the 36m signing bonus, if mario takes a career ending injury after yr 3, all the remaining money of that 36m is accelerated into the next 2 yrs. So if its 24m unpaid because of your "ladder", then that's 12m in each of the following yrs. If 36m is fully guaranteed in the 1st 3yrs and he has that same career ending injury, there won't be any dead money because it was paid already. Does that make sense? As I say, its like paying in cash vs a credit card.

thunderkyss
02-18-2012, 05:02 AM
A little off topic, but did you know Adrian Peterson's monster deal came with no signing bonus?

Peppers original contract contained a $6.5M signing bonus....

Maybe these signing bonuses aren't as important to "mega-star" players as they used to be.

amazing80
02-18-2012, 09:38 AM
The guarantee is going to have to be closer to $42M.... that's what Peppers got to go to Chicago. He'll actually earn closer to $51M (because of escalators) if he plays a third season in Chicago.

Charles Johnson with the Panthers got $32M guaranteed with a $30M signing bonus. Most likely the first year salary was $2M, so the rest of the contract is not guaranteed. But, since it is a 6 year deal they carry 5M/yr towards the cap. Cutting him in year 2, would cost them $25M towards the cap. Cutting him year 3 would cost them $20M. Cutting him year 4 would leave $15M. Year 5.... $10M, then year 6 (the final year of the contract) would leave $5M of dead money. As long as his cap number does not exceed that dead money, he's pretty much guaranteed to be on that team. With a $72M contract, $12M/avg his cap number would probably exceed the dead money around year 4....

Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.... if the Texans feel good enough about signing Mario to a long term deal, they most likely won't be thinking about cutting him in 3 or 4 years anyway.

There is also a difference between guaranteed & fully guaranteed. Peyton Manning's money wasn't fully guaranteed, he was supposed to earn $69M over the first 3 years of his new contract. Looks like he may not make half of that.

So yeah, you can tell Mario his $36M is fully guaranteed over the first three years, but if I were his financial planner, I'd tell him the interest on $36M in the first year alone would get him a new Ferrari or two.

Its called a hometown discount, because if he commands as much as you say we wont be able to afford him

thunderkyss
02-18-2012, 11:01 AM
Its called a hometown discount, because if he commands as much as you say we wont be able to afford him

If I am correct & the high end of the market is $14M/yr ($14 x 3 = $42M over 3 years) there is no reason we can not structure the deal so his cap hit for 2012 is closer to $10M

You keep saying he'll cost too much, or that we won't be able to afford him. Everything I've shown, & the others who've suggested contracts to keep Mario has shown a reasonable contract offer that will reduce his 2012 cap number (~$10M) compared to his 2011 cap hit (~$18M) leaving money to sign Foster & Myers ($5M to Foster, $3M to Myers) with the savings alone.

This doesn't take into account the other 15 FA that will be coming off our books, saving us money. This doesn't take into account we have several contracts that can be re-structured (to put more money in the players hands sooner & lower our cap). This doesn't take into account the $1M we can roll-over from 2011, or the $3M we'll be allowed to borrow from 2013.

So, when you say we won't be able to afford to keep Mario, could you please be a little more specific as to why not?

b0ng
02-18-2012, 11:52 AM
If I am correct & the high end of the market is $14M/yr ($14 x 3 = $42M over 3 years) there is no reason we can not structure the deal so his cap hit for 2012 is closer to $10M

You keep saying he'll cost too much, or that we won't be able to afford him. Everything I've shown, & the others who've suggested contracts to keep Mario has shown a reasonable contract offer that will reduce his 2012 cap number (~$10M) compared to his 2011 cap hit (~$18M) leaving money to sign Foster & Myers ($5M to Foster, $3M to Myers) with the savings alone.

This doesn't take into account the other 15 FA that will be coming off our books, saving us money. This doesn't take into account we have several contracts that can be re-structured (to put more money in the players hands sooner & lower our cap). This doesn't take into account the $1M we can roll-over from 2011, or the $3M we'll be allowed to borrow from 2013.

So, when you say we won't be able to afford to keep Mario, could you please be a little more specific as to why not?

I think the idea that people are using when they say that we can't afford him is that there will be a team that will outbid us even if we give him every last piece of our cap space.

If Mario hits the open market, I'm not saying he's for sure gone, but it's going to be very difficult for him to resist the temptation of being probably the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. It's not every year that a 27 year old stud pass rusher comes onto the open market. He may have some injury issues, but teams like Seattle, Jacksonville, or whoever are probably going to be more than happy to risk many 10's of millions of dollars on Mario Williams. If Mario wants to stay a Texan it's almost a guarantee that he will have to take a deal that will give the Texans enough cap space to sign Foster to a nice contract, because that guy is pretty much the heart and soul of the offense. Foster doesn't need to have a giganto contract like Peterson or Johnson, but I think we need to offer him top5 RB salary because that's what he is.

I do believe Williams wants to stay in Houston based off of the few articles already posted here, but want to, and will are worlds apart.

ChampionTexan
02-18-2012, 12:00 PM
6 Year Deal - $78 Million total ($13 Million/year average). $15 Million signing bonus, $6.5 Million roster bonus in years 2 & 3 ($13 Million in total), Base Salary (in millions) by year- $6.5, $3.5, $4.0, $10.0, $12.0, $14.0.

Guarantee everything in the first three years ($42 Million), pay the roster bonus on the first day of the league year (early March).

Cap hit by year (in millions) $9.0, $12.5, $13.0, $12.5, $14.5, $16.5.

$28 Million in cash to Mario in the first 12 months of the deal, $38 Million in the first 24 months.

Unamortized bonus after year 3 - $7.5 Million, decreasing by $2.5 million per year.

Either or both of the roster bonuses could be converted to signing bonus if more cap room is needed in 2013 and/or 2014 (obviously with an increase in unamortized bonus as a result).

thunderkyss
02-18-2012, 02:02 PM
I think the idea that people are using when they say that we can't afford him is that there will be a team that will outbid us even if we give him every last piece of our cap space.

That's another story all together. Not even the staunchest Mario supporter here is suggesting we over-pay the man.

If someone thinks Mario is all about the money, then they need to come out & say so. I'm sure most of us know we can not win a bidding war, nor think we should.



If Mario hits the open market, I'm not saying he's for sure gone, but it's going to be very difficult for him to resist the temptation of being probably the highest paid defensive player in the NFL.

If I'm Rick Smith, I'm using this as an opportunity to send a message to all our players. I'll make a fair honest offer. I'll negotiate a reasonable deal that doesn't hurt the organization.

But if you turn it down, if you walk away, don't think about coming back. I would look at it like this... we're married, then all of a sudden you say you want to see other people... once you walk out that door, you are no longer the person I want to spend the rest of my life with.


It's not every year that a 27 year old stud pass rusher comes onto the open market. He may have some injury issues, but teams like Seattle, Jacksonville, or whoever are probably going to be more than happy to risk many 10's of millions of dollars on Mario Williams. If Mario wants to stay a Texan it's almost a guarantee that he will have to take a deal that will give the Texans enough cap space to sign Foster to a nice contract, because that guy is pretty much the heart and soul of the offense. Foster doesn't need to have a giganto contract like Peterson or Johnson, but I think we need to offer him top5 RB salary because that's what he is.

here is the Mario or Foster argument again. I don't think it needs to go there. If it makes sense for the organization, then we need to do it period. If that means the going rate of a pass rusher of Mario's caliber is $22M & we can't afford to pay Foster, so be it.

Which premier RB helped the GBPackers win a Super Bowl in 2010? The New York Giants in 2011? Keep going back until you find a Super Bowl Champ with a stud.. super star, franchise RB. Then go back & try to find a Super Bowl Champ without at least one franchise pass rusher.

JPP, Tuck, CMIII, Harrison, Strahan, Freeny, Seymour....

However current market value for a DE is not $22M, it's much lower & we should be able to work out a friendlier cap number.



I do believe Williams wants to stay in Houston based off of the few articles already posted here, but want to, and will are worlds apart.

That's a fine opinion, much better than stating we couldn't afford him.