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badboy
01-26-2012, 04:01 PM
Always can depend on y'all to provide a platform for directional conversations in the offseason. Much appreciated. :texflag:Thanks, KT & will pass on to the other two your compliments. This is the most exciting draft for me in Texans history and hope to get feed back for everyone.

Brandon420tx
01-26-2012, 05:06 PM
An easy way to solve this problem and knock out two birds with one stone is to look at all the players whose contracts expire after next season and sign the ones we want to keep to extensions in offseason. The last season in a contract is usually the biggest and we have alot of big name players in the final year of their contracts after this offseason, extending them will relieve alot of cap stress

thunderkyss
01-26-2012, 06:26 PM
Lastly, yes, Barwin and Reed did a great job this year. Luckily they stayed healthy all year. I wouldnt anticipate both of them making it through 2012 without injury. People get can caught up in starters. "We have our 2 outside linebackers. Next!" To that I say its a good thing that the Texans pay attention to our depth and drafted Reed.

Exactly. Take Mario off this team & an outside pass rusher shoots to the top of our needs list. Barwin & Reed are great football players, but neither is elite.

Most people outside Houston believe Mario to be elite.

Goldensilence
01-26-2012, 07:29 PM
I try not to call folks names on here, but some on here bang on the same subject with half truths & flat out lies sometimes that it just gets annoying to read.

It's not even close to the Schaub and Rosenfels debate.

Matt was having injury problems, Rosenfels stepped in and performed... medicore but after having Carr even mediocre play was a vast improvement. Truth was Sage was a turnover machine.

I don't see anyone on the board outright calling for Reed to start over Mario. The main point is he had a productive rookie campaign and there's the possibility to build on it.

If you still see the comparison, I can't help you either.

I'm not denying the guy has been productive despite not having a whole lot of help. I don't think anyone would. Like I said we've seen flashes of a guy who can take over games with 2-3 sack performances and really get after QBs, problem is he follows those kind of games up where he doesn't really seem to show up. I'm not denying the guy has a motor it's just not a nonstop high motor like you see in some other guys on the team like Watt, Smith, or Barwin. That's what made this defense so successful this year finally.

You're right on 1 of the reasons he was chose over Bush and VY was the money he'd sign for. The others were simply more outright like whether we liked it or not Carr was onboard for at least another year. Which made VY unlikely. Now, if the rookie scale was like it is now with a #1 pick it would've been more possible to take VY and play Carr for a year. Next, was the scouting reports on Bush were that he wasn't an every down back, it's only been this last year in Miami where he managed to prove it wrong, years later.

Nothing wrong with taking into consideration the cap hit signing Mario is going to take. We've got a few key players this year that are going to need to be resigned or who we would like to. Mario is in that class. Next, years crop is going to be even more difficult considering the FO is going to have to make a call on Matt Schaub.

No, you're right on him not being the kind of player Haynesworth was when he was most productive with the Titans. But, I'm just curious, seeing as how productive he's been what kind of contract do YOU think he'll be able to command? Do you think he's worth Suggs type money? Peppers?

Like I said he has been a game changer in some games. Others not so much, unfortunately with his injury this year we really weren't able to see what he's going to be able to do in this system. If he had a Ware type season. No question, pay him.

Far as FA and the draft goes this last year proved to be something different in both far as getting effective players in both. I think the big thing this FO has had to deal with in FA is Kubiak has HIS guys on the offensive side of the ball, so barring something REALLY screaming at him he's slow to move on that side of the ball.

In the past on defense it wasn't that we didn't try, but honestly coming to play for Richard Smith or Frank Bush wasn't something a top tier FA would've likely looked at and say "Hey, his defense has shown me something. I think I can fit in well here and be successful." Difference is this last year Wade has a track record of building very good defenses. You can look at his early success in SD and Dallas.

If Mario does walk I think with Wade this defense is attractive to other FA's and based on who we drafted last year and how they produced I think we'd be fine. This past year the defense played top 5 without him and was an injury away from Braman and Nading starting. Difference is the FO has an entire offseason to figure it out and considering there's an actual scheme in place it becomes less difficult who to target.

CharloTex
01-26-2012, 07:45 PM
Question (and maybe this has been addressed already, but I don't have time to read through 51 pages):

If we lose Mario to free agency in 2012, wouldn't we likely get a 3rd round compensatory pick for the 2013 draft, all other free agency plus/minus being equal?

Goldensilence
01-26-2012, 07:45 PM
To top this off I don't see how some people on this board get all huffy, puffy, and out right pissed about MB "Capologists" or "GMs".

You're right most of us aren't in professional scouting, management, or have an official affiliation with the Texans. If they are they rightfully have been silent.

I would say most of what gets posted is speculation and opinion. If you want straight confirmed facts look to the Texans website and read what the FO is willing to release publicly.

Does everyone really need to post in their sig line what I post is an opinion and you're entitled to yours?

thunderkyss
01-26-2012, 08:17 PM
To top this off I don't see how some people on this board get all huffy, puffy, and out right pissed about MB "Capologists" or "GMs".


Does everyone really need to post in their sig line what I post is an opinion and you're entitled to yours?

Some people are expressing their opinion as fact. That's the problem. We won't be able to sign Mario & Arian.... how does anyone know?

Signing Mario will handicap us for years? Again... this is not fact. At least we know that we have options & we need to see if the Texans even truly want to sign Mario, & if they are willing to franchise him.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 08:27 PM
If you actually believe Mario Williams is going to sign for anything less than the other top DE/Rushbackers then you are living in a dream world.

This is the kind of contract he's going to get, and he may even get more considering he isn't a one dimensional player:

Peppers Six years $84 mil $42 mil guaranteed
Ware Seven years $79 mil $40 mil guaranteed
Freeney Six years $72 mil $31.5 guaranteed
Allen six years $73.26 mil $31 guaranteed
Suggs six years $62.5 mil $38.1 guaranteed
Johnson six years $76 mil $32 guaranteed

No I don't. But he would would have to actually earn the money that is not guaranteed. Also here is a breakdown of average salary.

Peppers - $14 million per year
Ware - $11.3 million per year
Freeney - $12 million per year
Allen - $12.21 million per year
Suggs - $10.42 million per year
Johnson - $12.67 million per year

His cap hit was $18 million this year. I don't see why we couldn't manipulate the cap to get a deal done and still sign key players. There are too many factors that people are ignoring. We have 12 FAs (including Williams) which means their salaries come off the cap. You also have to factor in the salaries of people we have under contract. There will be some restructuring, some cap casualties, and a bunch of negotiations. Mario Williams is our top priority in the offseason. I want some rep for this point. ;)

Wolf
01-26-2012, 08:36 PM
No I don't. But he would would have to actually earn the money that is not guaranteed. Also here is a breakdown of average salary.

Peppers - $14 million per year
Ware - $11.3 million per year
Freeney - $12 million per year
Allen - $12.21 million per year
Suggs - $10.42 million per year
Johnson - $12.67 million per year

His cap hit was $18 million this year. I don't see why we couldn't manipulate the cap to get a deal done and still sign key players. There are too many factors that people are ignoring. We have 12 FAs (including Williams) which means their salaries come off the cap. You also have to factor in the salaries of people we have under contract. There will be some restructuring, some cap casualties, and a bunch of negotiations. However Arian Foster is our top priority in the offseason.

fixed it for ya :dancer:

I am not saying I don't want Mario come back, I really do.. I am hoping there is a hometown/coming off an injury discount with him signing back with us. However a lot of people looking to get paid within the next two years.

thunderkyss
01-26-2012, 08:58 PM
fixed it for ya :dancer:

I am not saying I don't want Mario come back, I really do.. I am hoping there is a hometown/coming off an injury discount with him signing back with us. However a lot of people looking to get paid within the next two years.

2012 is the biggest "issue" we have facing us now. 2013, we expect the cap to grow quite a bit. Nothing against Arian, but he's signed, he'll be here next year. We've got until the 2012 to "pay" Arian. Mario needs to be done before FA starts.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 09:04 PM
fixed it for ya :dancer:

I am not saying I don't want Mario come back, I really do.. I am hoping there is a hometown/coming off an injury discount with him signing back with us. However a lot of people looking to get paid within the next two years.

lol Nice try but no. ;) Mario Williams is our top priority because Foster is a RESTRICTED FA. Maybe some people should go look up the rules for RESTRICTED FA, but essentially it will be easier for us to resign Foster than Williams because Williams is UNRESTRICTED. I don't think anyone doubt Foster will be back next year. If Foster was our #1 priority he would have a deal already. #1 priority is to get a deal done with Williams before March 13, so we can know what kind of cap we'll have to work with for everybody else.

steelbtexan
01-26-2012, 09:23 PM
lol Nice try but no. ;) Mario Williams is our top priority because Foster is a RESTRICTED FA. Maybe some people should go look up the rules for RESTRICTED FA, but essentially it will be easier for us to resign Foster than Williams because Williams is UNRESTRICTED. I don't think anyone doubt Foster will be back next year. Our #1 goal is to get a long term deal done with Williams before March 13.

I'm not saying let MW walk.

But if re-signing MW means

1. Losing Myers, the OL leader/continuity
2. Losing Foster, even if the Texans lose him in 2013
3. Not being able to upgrade the WR2/WR3 positions

Then it's time to show MW the door and look at drafting some depth.

Wolf
01-26-2012, 09:26 PM
that is the gamble the Texans might take.. if someone comes out and offers Chris Johnson Money to Foster.. will the Texans match it? or just take the first round pick ?

I know first round picks are "tough" to give up for a team, but Foster is easily a 1st round pick, he is still young and have a lot of tread left on the tires, so to speak. hell, don't think teams around the league noticed his play in the playoffs. and that is when the money talks

could the Texans afford to absorb that kind of contract now along with trying to re-sign this years players among the other decisions that are coming next year)

time will tell. I think it would best suit the Texans to get Foster locked up now.

Foster means the world to this offense right now much more than Mario does to the defense.. not saying I wouldn't like to have Mario back but.. we will see how contracts go

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 09:58 PM
I'm not saying let MW walk.

But if re-signing MW means

1. Losing Myers, the OL leader/continuity
2. Losing Foster, even if the Texans lose him in 2013
3. Not being able to upgrade the WR2/WR3 positions

Then it's time to show MW the door and look at drafting some depth.

Well I agree. But you are making a large assumption to say that signing Williams will endanger our chances of bringing our key FAs back. We have 12 FAs (including Williams). That means 12 salaries coming off the cap. The top pass rushers (OLB/DE) average salary is around $11-$14 million over the life of the contract. Mario had a cap hit of $18 million last year ($18 million of cap space freed up). There are plenty of options available that can allow us to sign Williams and still get Foster and Meyers We will likely look for a WR in the draft because it's cheaper. There are so many factors people are overlooking. Just let the FO handle it.

mussop
01-26-2012, 09:59 PM
This is simple. Without Mario on the team we still had one of the 2 best defenses in the entire NFL. Unless he comes at a very reasonable price that will allow us to retain both our starting OL and our franchise RB then we are better off continuing without him. Hopefully with some compensation. Like I said simple.

Some of you have just fallen in love with all his press clippings and it's clouding your judgement. He is a unique and great athlete for his size and that seems to have made people like him even more. He is a nice guy and I hope his agent doesn't price him out of our range. But no matter how you spin it it comes down to his worth to the team compared to the worth of the players we will loose and the players we will not be able to add via FA if we resign him.

Again, simple! For the right price he stays. The decision is really Mario's. Does he like it here enough to turn down LOTS more money elsewhere? That is the real question.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 10:04 PM
that is the gamble the Texans might take.. if someone comes out and offers Chris Johnson Money to Foster.. will the Texans match it? or just take the first round pick ?

I know first round picks are "tough" to give up for a team, but Foster is easily a 1st round pick, he is still young and have a lot of tread left on the tires, so to speak. hell, don't think teams around the league noticed his play in the playoffs. and that is when the money talks

could the Texans afford to absorb that kind of contract now along with trying to re-sign this years players among the other decisions that are coming next year)

time will tell. I think it would best suit the Texans to get Foster locked up now.

Foster means the world to this offense right now much more than Mario does to the defense.. not saying I wouldn't like to have Mario back but.. we will see how contracts go

You're wrong though. If we should have sign Foster first, then he would have been given a deal in the offseason. The reason he does not have one is because they will try to sign`Williams first. Pass rushers command higher salaries than RBs. Point blank. They knew this. They were not going to throw a hefty contract at Foster before coming to terms with Williams. They want to bring Williams back. He is going to cost more than Foster, regardless of what you think or feel.

BTW no team is going to give up a 1st round draft pick to give Foster a "Chris Johnson" contract. Foster will be back with the Texans. Mario Williams is just our #1 priority.

Goldensilence
01-26-2012, 10:06 PM
Some people are expressing their opinion as fact. That's the problem. We won't be able to sign Mario & Arian.... how does anyone know?

Signing Mario will handicap us for years? Again... this is not fact. At least we know that we have options & we need to see if the Texans even truly want to sign Mario, & if they are willing to franchise him.

I guess I take it for granted its an opinion, unless they have a verifiable source when asked to present one.

Then again I try to use phrases like " I don't think..." or "I'm not sure if this is a good idea..." something along those lines.

mussop
01-26-2012, 10:07 PM
lol Nice try but no. ;) Mario Williams is our top priority because Foster is a RESTRICTED FA. Maybe some people should go look up the rules for RESTRICTED FA, but essentially it will be easier for us to resign Foster than Williams because Williams is UNRESTRICTED. I don't think anyone doubt Foster will be back next year. If Foster was our #1 priority he would have a deal already. #1 priority is to get a deal done with Williams before March 13, so we can know what kind of cap we'll have to work with for everybody else.

So what if someone offers foster a huge front loaded contract that if we match will kill all our cap space? if we turn it away all we get for him is a first round pick. Do you think this team would be better of with Mario and an extra first round pick minus foster or with foster minus Mario? We already know what kind of a defense we have without Mario, top 2! Now, how good would our offense of been without Foster? LOL at that.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 10:15 PM
So what if someone offers foster a huge front loaded contract that if we match will kill all our cap space? if we turn it away all we get for him is a first round pick. Do you think this team would be better of with Mario and an extra first round pick minus foster or with foster minus Mario? We already know what kind of a defense we have without Mario, top 2! Now, how good would our offense of been without Foster? LOL at that.

That a big what if. You're making an assumption that we cannot match the frontloaded contract. You have to be realistic. Go look at what teams actually need a RB. Does Foster even want to play for them? Also, does that team actually want to give Foster a frontloaded contract and lose a 1st round draft pick? Because he is a RESTRICTED FA. You seem to be confusing PRIORITY with what will actually go down. UNRESTRICTED FAs always have priority over RESTRICTED FAs, believe it or not. I am saying we will try to get a deal done with Williams FIRST. If we can come to terms then we can get a deal done with Foster. If not we will get a deal done with Foster. This PRIORITY does not mean we sign Williams, it just means it is our PRIORITY to sign him first.

mussop
01-26-2012, 10:17 PM
BTW no team is going to give up a 1st round draft pick to give Foster a "Chris Johnson" contract. Foster will be back with the Texans. Mario Williams is just our #1 priority.

Foster= arguably the RB in the entire league. You don't think there are teams out there that would give up a first round pick for him?

Mario Williams = coming off a missed year because of injury and was replaced and the team not only did not miss a beat, it got better to the tune of becoming the best defense in the NFL.

You need to to rethink your stance here. In general you would be right. A RB isn't as valuable as pass rusher. The problem is that there are other factors you are not considering.

mussop
01-26-2012, 10:21 PM
That a big what if. You're making an assumption that we cannot match the frontloaded contract. You have to be realistic. Go look at what teams actually need a RB. Does Foster even want to play for them? Also, does that team actually want to give Foster a frontloaded contract and lose a 1st round draft pick? Because he is a RESTRICTED FA. You seem to be confusing PRIORITY with what will actually go down. UNRESTRICTED FAs always have priority over RESTRICTED FAs, believe it or not. I am saying we will try to get a deal done with Williams FIRST. If we can come to terms then we can get a deal done with Foster. If not we will get a deal done with Foster. This PRIORITY does not mean we sign Williams, it just means it is our PRIORITY to sign him first.

You dont think front offices have to consider what if scenerios? Especially ones that have a real chance of happening. And you are ignoring the fact that it's already been proven that we are a dominanyy defense without Mario.

Wolf
01-26-2012, 10:23 PM
You're wrong though. If we should have sign Foster first, then he would have been given a deal in the offseason. The reason he does not have one is because they will try to sign`Williams first. Pass rushers command higher salaries than RBs. Point blank. They knew this. They were not going to throw a hefty contract at Foster before coming to terms with Williams. They want to bring Williams back. He is going to cost more than Foster, regardless of what you think or feel.

BTW no team is going to give up a 1st round draft pick to give Foster a "Chris Johnson" contract. Foster will be back with the Texans. Mario Williams is just our #1 priority.


I personally think they didn't sign foster because they wanted to see if he could duplicate what he did the year before.

the guy is 25 years old has been in the league for 3 years, played in 35 games averaging 4.7 yards a rush (3097 yards) and has 1314 yards receiving

not worth a first rounder?

*edit* AJ is pretty knowledgeable so this is what i am going by
So according to the new CBA, the qualifying offer (max tender) for Arian Foster will be a one-year deal around $2.8 million. The Texans have to make that offer to Foster before the free agency period begins in early March if they haven't already agreed on a long term deal - which I expect they will ... at some point ... just maybe not by early March.

So by rule, another team can make a run at Foster with a long term deal, but the Texans have the right to match any offers (RoFR). If the Texans decided not to match another team's offer, it would cost the other team a first rounder (no longer a first and third) to get Foster plus whatever long term deal they work out.

Foster's leverage with the Texans is to not agree to a long term deal before free agency begins and entertain offers from other teams to see if anyone is crazy enough to throw a deal his way approaching what Chris Johnson signed last fall.
http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/restricted-free-agency-tenders-have-changed-new-nfl-cba

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 10:28 PM
Foster= arguably the RB in the entire league. You don't think there are teams out there that would give up a first round pick for him?

Mario Williams = coming off a missed year because of injury and was replaced and the team not only did not miss a beat, it got better to the tune of becoming the best defense in the NFL.

You need to to rethink your stance here. In general you would be right. A RB isn't as valuable as pass rusher. The problem is that there are other factors you are not considering.

Sure if you think they are willing to outbid the Texans (because offering a contract does not mean they can him he is RESTRICTED) and then lose that 1st round pick.

Yeah sure the defense looked good down the stretch, but you can only imagine how much better it could have been with Williams (BTW it was #2 but I'll take it ;)).

Can you please tell me what factors I am overlooking? Because this is not enough evidence. In fact our sacks per game were higher with Mario in the lineup. We got pressure down the stretch but weren't consistent down the stretch bringing the QB down (Baltimore 1st time, Jacksonville 1st time, Atlanta, Cincy 1st time, Carolina, Indy). Eventually we could not get off the field when Matt Schaub went out. Need I say more? We got pressure but not many sacks. Mario is first priority whether you agree with me or not (for the reasons I provided). Your case is not strong enough because UNRESTRICTED FA will be our priority (it does not mean we will not sign Foster). We just want to get a deal done before March 13.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 10:33 PM
I personally think they didn't sign foster because they wanted to see if he could duplicate what he did the year before.

the guy is 25 years old has been in the league for 3 years, played in 35 games averaging 4.7 yards a rush (3097 yards) and has 1314 yards receiving

not worth a first rounder?

*edit* AJ is pretty knowledgeable so this is what i am going by

http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/restricted-free-agency-tenders-have-changed-new-nfl-cba

Dude I know how restricted FA works. This is my point...

So by rule, another team can make a run at Foster with a long term deal, but the Texans have the right to match any offers (RoFR). If the Texans decided not to match another team's offer, it would cost the other team a first rounder (no longer a first and third) to get Foster plus whatever long term deal they work out.

That's a BIG what if. That team must be pretty bad if they are willing to throw BIG MONEY at him AND lose a 1st round pick. That's DESPERATE. Do you think Foster wants to go to a desperate team? Again he is a FA, it's HIS choice. I am just telling you the line of thinking from management standpoint. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant because you are a fan. This is the reason we will try to sign Mario 1st, so we can know how much we can offer. Point blank.

Wolf
01-26-2012, 10:34 PM
You're wrong though. If we should have sign Foster first, then he would have been given a deal in the offseason. The reason he does not have one is because they will try to sign`Williams first. Pass rushers command higher salaries than RBs. Point blank. They knew this. They were not going to throw a hefty contract at Foster before coming to terms with Williams. They want to bring Williams back. He is going to cost more than Foster, regardless of what you think or feel.

BTW no team is going to give up a 1st round draft pick to give Foster a "Chris Johnson" contract. Foster will be back with the Texans. Mario Williams is just our #1 priority.


I could also swing this around back to you

If the Texans thought they should sign Mario first he would have signed an extension last year and not wait until this year where they could lose him for nothing(*edit*unless they franchise him). However I know that there were issues with switching to the 3-4 and how Mario would do with going to OLB. A lot of uncertainty there and unfortunately not much game day film on Mario in the 3-4 (throughout the season and how some of the teams would adjust to him on the defense) Question is now, Did Wade see enough of Mario to convince Bob to keep him here in Houston or does the Wade think Reed will late a leap in his 2nd year?

I want Mario to stay, but if he can't I hope the Texans can do a sign and trade to get compensation. He is one of my favorite players but I know there are tough situations coming. However,the Texans have more of a luxury with a very good defense anyway than what the Panther had when they let Peppers go.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 10:50 PM
I could also swing this around back to you

If the Texans thought they should sign Mario first he would have signed an extension last year and not wait until this year where they could lose him for nothing.. However I know that there were issues with switching to the 3-4 and how Mario would do with going to OLB. A lot of uncertainty there and unfortunately not much game day film on Mario in the 3-4 (throughout the season and how some of the teams would adjust to him on the defense) Question is now, Did Wade see enough of Mario to convince Bob to keep him here in Houston or does the Wade think Reed will late a leap in his 2nd year?

I want Mario to stay, but if he can't I hope the Texans can do a sign and trade to get compensation. He is one of my favorite players but I know there are tough situations coming. However,the Texans have more of a luxury with a very good defense anyway than what the Panther had when they let Peppers go.

If you want to, but you're forgetting we just switched schemes from 4-3 and 3-4. We had to see if it could work and Mario showed promise in Wade's scheme. Otherwise we would have tried to get a deal done in the offseason. If you think it would have been a good idea to negotiate a contract DURING season, so be it. Anyway, I believe we had contract talks with Foster last offseason, but we could not come to terms with any figures.

Charles Johnson? 6 years 76 million? I don't see a situation like that here in Houston. Foster does not command 76 million, nor does any RB.

Wolf
01-26-2012, 10:58 PM
I did mention wade coming in and uncertainty


Chris Johnson. 6 year 56 million .. Is the running back

Charles Johnson is the DE with the 76 million :)

thunderkyss
01-26-2012, 11:00 PM
If you want to, but you're forgetting we just switched schemes from 4-3 and 3-4. We had to see if it could work and Mario showed promise in Wade's scheme.

It still would have been better to sign him to a deal last offseason. Then we'd already have 1 year of his prorated bonus already out of the way. Making him more tradeable than he is now. Franchise then trade just isn't going to happen.

However, since Mario didn't get a signing bonus, it was probably important to him & his agent that Mario got paid what was owed on his rookie contract.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 11:01 PM
I did mention wade coming in and uncertainty


Chris Johnson. 6 year 56 million .. Is the running back

Charles Johnson is the DE with the 76 million :)

I know that. Apparently you did not realize that Julius Peppers AND Charles Johnson the DE both played for Carolina. No wonder they could not keep Peppers, so they chose the 25 year old instead.

Wolf
01-26-2012, 11:04 PM
You threw me off when you said foster doesn't command 76 million and no rb does

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 11:06 PM
It still would have been better to sign him to a deal last offseason. Then we'd already have 1 year of his prorated bonus already out of the way. Making him more tradeable than he is now. Franchise then trade just isn't going to happen.

However, since Mario didn't get a signing bonus, it was probably important to him & his agent that Mario got paid what was owed on his rookie contract.

I get you wished we signed Foster to a deal last offseason. But we were not going to give him BIG MONEY for 1 great season. They told him if you do it again we'll take care of you. So we will take care of him, but we will try to sign Williams first. They can do all kinds of things with the cap. Just let them do they thing.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 11:08 PM
You threw me off when you said foster doesn't command 76 million and no rb does

My fault I should have been clear. I was addressing your comment about us having a "luxury" the Panthers did not have. They had 2 explosive pass rushers. We don't.

Wolf
01-26-2012, 11:11 PM
My fault I should have been clear. I was addressing your comment about us having a "luxury" the Panthers did not have. They had 2 elite pass rushers. We don't.

I should have been clear I was talking luxury as in having the #2 defense without Mario ,for a while

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 11:25 PM
I should have been clear I was talking luxury as in having the #2 defense without Mario ,for a while

Yeah but we played some of the league worst offenses this year (Cle, Jax 2 times, TB, Indy 2 times and lost once). Next year we have to go against teams with explosive offenses like NE, GB and Det. I would feel better with Williams getting after the QBs next (I'm sure you would to). ;)

BTW check your PMs. I think I sent you something a few days ago (Didn't realize it was you).

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 12:08 AM
You dont think front offices have to consider what if scenerios? Especially ones that have a real chance of happening. And you are ignoring the fact that it's already been proven that we are a dominanyy defense without Mario.

Dominant against who? We were good down the stretch for sure. But how many of the teams we dominated had good offense or QBs? That would be a good mindset ONLY if we are not able to sign Williams. We will not be thinking how "good" our defense is without him until it has to become a realty.

Blake
01-27-2012, 08:08 AM
Casserly on this morning with Vandy and Lopez. Says Mario is the Texans top priority and that on the surface the Texans look hard up against the cap, but will be able to move things around and get a long term deal done with Mario.

Mario is here to stay folks.

badboy
01-27-2012, 08:46 AM
Well I agree. But you are making a large assumption to say that signing Williams will endanger our chances of bringing our key FAs back. We have 12 FAs (including Williams). That means 12 salaries coming off the cap. The top pass rushers (OLB/DE) average salary is around $11-$14 million over the life of the contract. Mario had a cap hit of $18 million last year ($18 million of cap space freed up). There are plenty of options available that can allow us to sign Williams and still get Foster and Meyers We will likely look for a WR in the draft because it's cheaper. There are so many factors people are overlooking. Just let the FO handle it.YOU let the FO handle it as many of us enjoy discussing and debating these issues. Part of being a fan.

Also not sure I understand you point of 12 FA's salaries coming off cap? If we want to re-sign many of them then their salaries will actually be on the cap next season (some maybe less but most significantly more). I do agree with what I think your main point is; Mario can be re-signed and our major FA contributors also.

gafftop
01-27-2012, 08:47 AM
Dominant against who? We were good down the stretch for sure. But how many of the teams we dominated had good offense or QBs? That would be a good mindset ONLY if we are not able to sign Williams. We will not be thinking how "good" our defense is without him until it has to become a realty.

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Wasn't it a reality when he was on IR. How many dominant offenses did we play this year? How many dominant offenses are there out there now, GB, NE, NO ... just wondering.

Casserly on this morning with Vandy and Lopez. Says Mario is the Texans top priority and that on the surface the Texans look hard up against the cap, but will be able to move things around and get a long term deal done with Mario.

Mario is here to stay folks.

Casserly I've heard that name before. Man if Casserly thinks Mario is top priority then damn we better sign him because Casserly knows his ****.

Where was Mario this year anyway. Oh yeah he was hurt. Y'all hang your hat on how Mario has only missed x amount of games before these last two years. I seem to remember hurt toe, plantar f, hip, shoulder,... etc. I have posted before that the Texans made up injuries to cover for him when he disappeared. I know they didn't but it sure seemed something was always wrong with him that kept him from playing 100%.

badboy
01-27-2012, 09:01 AM
So what if someone offers foster a huge front loaded contract that if we match will kill all our cap space? if we turn it away all we get for him is a first round pick. Do you think this team would be better of with Mario and an extra first round pick minus foster or with foster minus Mario? We already know what kind of a defense we have without Mario, top 2! Now, how good would our offense of been without Foster? LOL at that.Not exactly a fair eval because we don't know how Tate will do after a full year in system nor Mario after a full off season nor who we would get in the first round for Foster.

badboy
01-27-2012, 09:44 AM
I thnk with all the talk in regards to Foster & Williams it would be informative if someone would research and give us teams that could not only use these two FAs but who would possibly make offers. For teams interested in Foster give the team's pecking order so we will know if a first is given where it falls in first round. Thanks in advance

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 10:09 AM
YOU let the FO handle it as many of us enjoy discussing and debating these issues. Part of being a fan.

Also not sure I understand you point of 12 FA's salaries coming off cap? If we want to re-sign many of them then their salaries will actually be on the cap next season (some maybe less but most significantly more). I do agree with what I think your main point is; Mario can be re-signed and our major FA contributors also.

Yes that is my main point. I understand what you mean about the 12 salaries returning to the cap. But as I pointed out earlier that there will be some restructuring of contracts and some cap casualties but management can manipulate the cap to make it happen. It just depends on whether the players accept it or not.

Dutchrudder
01-27-2012, 10:12 AM
I thnk with all the talk in regards to Foster & Williams it would be informative if someone would research and give us teams that could not only use these two FAs but who would possibly make offers. For teams interested in Foster give the team's pecking order so we will know if a first is given where it falls in first round. Thanks in advance

Short list of teams that would like to get Mario:

Cleveland Browns, 4-3 defense that needs another DE to pair with Jabaal Sheard. They have lots of capspace to sign him to a new deal. They have picks 4 and 22 in the 1st of this draft. Could possibly give up 22 alone for Mario or #4 and a 3rd for Mario and our 1st at 26. Lots of possibilities for the Texans at #4, Blackmon or Claiborne could be there. Could sell RG3 to the Redskins for their 1st and 2nd. Then pick a guy like Decastro at 6 and a WR at 39.

Cincinnati Bengals, 4-3 defense that could use a great DE. They have picks 17 and 21. If the Texans did a tag and trade for Mario I would expect us to send Mario and our 1st for both of their picks in the 1st. I think that would be rather fair. Maybe they could toss in a 4th or something too.

Carolina Panthers, 4-3 defense with a young team looking to improve upon one of the worst defenses in the league this year. Put him on the other side of Charles Johnson and they have a good pass rush. Panthers pick at 9, which is kinda pricey for Mario alone. It may have to be their 1st and 2nd, for Mario and our 2nd.

Miami Dolphins, switching to a 4-3 defense, they will need to change some personnel for the switch. Mario would be an ideal building block to help Cameron Wake with the pass rush. They pick at 8, so I would think something like the Panthers trade I suggested would work.

Seattle Seahawks, 4-3 team that needs two DEs. They don't have a lot of pass rush, but Mario could turn that around in an easy division like the NFC West. They pick at 12, which may work as an outright trade for Mario, but I think they want a QB like Tannehill. I would expect them to give up their 2011 1st, 2nd and 2012 2nd for Mario and our 1st with hopes of Tannehill falling to 26.

srrono
01-27-2012, 10:20 AM
Short list of teams that would like to get Mario:

Cleveland Browns, 4-3 defense that needs another DE to pair with Jabaal Sheard. They have lots of capspace to sign him to a new deal. They have picks 4 and 22 in the 1st of this draft. Could possibly give up 22 alone for Mario or #4 and a 3rd for Mario and our 1st at 26. Lots of possibilities for the Texans at #4, Blackmon or Claiborne could be there. Could sell RG3 to the Redskins for their 1st and 2nd. Then pick a guy like Decastro at 6 and a WR at 39.

Cincinnati Bengals, 4-3 defense that could use a great DE. They have picks 17 and 21. If the Texans did a tag and trade for Mario I would expect us to send Mario and our 1st for both of their picks in the 1st. I think that would be rather fair. Maybe they could toss in a 4th or something too.

Carolina Panthers, 4-3 defense with a young team looking to improve upon one of the worst defenses in the league this year. Put him on the other side of Charles Johnson and they have a good pass rush. Panthers pick at 9, which is kinda pricey for Mario alone. It may have to be their 1st and 2nd, for Mario and our 2nd.

Miami Dolphins, switching to a 4-3 defense, they will need to change some personnel for the switch. Mario would be an ideal building block to help Cameron Wake with the pass rush. They pick at 8, so I would think something like the Panthers trade I suggested would work.

Seattle Seahawks, 4-3 team that needs two DEs. They don't have a lot of pass rush, but Mario could turn that around in an easy division like the NFC West. They pick at 12, which may work as an outright trade for Mario, but I think they want a QB like Tannehill. I would expect them to give up their 2011 1st, 2nd and 2012 2nd for Mario and our 1st with hopes of Tannehill falling to 26.

CIN I could see making a run at Mario because they are a playoff team the others are in more of a building mold so why put so much money in a player that might give them 1 more win in the standings.

Mr teX
01-27-2012, 10:42 AM
You're wrong though. If we should have sign Foster first, then he would have been given a deal in the offseason. The reason he does not have one is because they will try to sign`Williams first. Pass rushers command higher salaries than RBs. Point blank. They knew this. They were not going to throw a hefty contract at Foster before coming to terms with Williams. They want to bring Williams back. He is going to cost more than Foster, regardless of what you think or feel.

BTW no team is going to give up a 1st round draft pick to give Foster a "Chris Johnson" contract. Foster will be back with the Texans. Mario Williams is just our #1 priority.

rep your way & this is what people don't understand. As good as Foster is, he's still a rb & teams don't like giving out monster contracts to rbs b/c their shelf life is short. The other thing working against Foster is the fact that teams are reluctant to give up 1st rounders.........period. They're just too valuable...The only position teams even seriously consider giving them up for are qb for obvious reasons.

People are acting like its Foster's not going to get anything this year & that's far from the truth. Even with him not signing a long term deal this offseason, he'll still be getting a substantial raise from what he's making now b/c the texans will have to tender him something competitive to keep him here.

Mr teX
01-27-2012, 10:45 AM
Short list of teams that would like to get Mario:

Cleveland Browns, 4-3 defense that needs another DE to pair with Jabaal Sheard. They have lots of capspace to sign him to a new deal. They have picks 4 and 22 in the 1st of this draft. Could possibly give up 22 alone for Mario or #4 and a 3rd for Mario and our 1st at 26. Lots of possibilities for the Texans at #4, Blackmon or Claiborne could be there. Could sell RG3 to the Redskins for their 1st and 2nd. Then pick a guy like Decastro at 6 and a WR at 39.

Cincinnati Bengals, 4-3 defense that could use a great DE. They have picks 17 and 21. If the Texans did a tag and trade for Mario I would expect us to send Mario and our 1st for both of their picks in the 1st. I think that would be rather fair. Maybe they could toss in a 4th or something too.

Carolina Panthers, 4-3 defense with a young team looking to improve upon one of the worst defenses in the league this year. Put him on the other side of Charles Johnson and they have a good pass rush. Panthers pick at 9, which is kinda pricey for Mario alone. It may have to be their 1st and 2nd, for Mario and our 2nd.

Miami Dolphins, switching to a 4-3 defense, they will need to change some personnel for the switch. Mario would be an ideal building block to help Cameron Wake with the pass rush. They pick at 8, so I would think something like the Panthers trade I suggested would work.

Seattle Seahawks, 4-3 team that needs two DEs. They don't have a lot of pass rush, but Mario could turn that around in an easy division like the NFC West. They pick at 12, which may work as an outright trade for Mario, but I think they want a QB like Tannehill. I would expect them to give up their 2011 1st, 2nd and 2012 2nd for Mario and our 1st with hopes of Tannehill falling to 26.

You can X carolina off the list....that'll be too much money tied up into 1 position with Williams & Johnson & they've got other more pressing needs elsewhere.

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 10:47 AM
1)Not sure I understand what you are saying. Wasn't it a reality when he was on IR. How many dominant offenses did we play this year? How many dominant offenses are there out there now, GB, NE, NO ... just wondering.



Casserly I've heard that name before. Man if Casserly thinks Mario is top priority then damn we better sign him because Casserly knows his ****.

Where was Mario this year anyway. Oh yeah he was hurt. 2)Y'all hang your hat on how Mario has only missed x amount of games before these last two years. I seem to remember hurt toe, plantar f, hip, shoulder,... etc. I have posted before that the Texans made up injuries to cover for him when he disappeared. I know they didn't but it sure seemed something was always wrong with him that kept him from playing 100%.

1) It is true that there are not as many dominate offenses in the league. We just so happen to have NE and GB on our schedule next year. I have no doubt we can make the playoffs without Mario next season. But unless you're happy to just be there (see Baltimore last 4 seasons), we have a much better shot at a championship with Mario on our team.

2) Everybody plays nicked up in the NFL (i.e. Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans). I could make the argument that Mario Williams led the team in sacks 4 out of 5 times from 2006-2010 while playing through those injuries. In that time span he accounted for 48 of 144 sacks (33%). That's pretty valuable to me.

Mr teX
01-27-2012, 10:57 AM
Not sure I understand what you are saying. Wasn't it a reality when he was on IR. How many dominant offenses did we play this year? How many dominant offenses are there out there now, GB, NE, NO ... just wondering.



Casserly I've heard that name before. Man if Casserly thinks Mario is top priority then damn we better sign him because Casserly knows his ****.

Where was Mario this year anyway. Oh yeah he was hurt. Y'all hang your hat on how Mario has only missed x amount of games before these last two years. I seem to remember hurt toe, plantar f, hip, shoulder,... etc. I have posted before that the Texans made up injuries to cover for him when he disappeared. I know they didn't but it sure seemed something was always wrong with him that kept him from playing 100%.

Yet he still went out there week after week more often than not & was the Texans' most effective pass rusher so what does that tell you?

AJ played most of 2010 with a hurt ankle & this year had hammy issues.

Schaub was bruised up everywhere in 2010 & missed most of 2011 with his ankle...

Demeco missed most 2010 last year with his achilles..

Daniels....Lol, do i even have to list his injuries the last 3 years?

Playing in 16 physical games in the season...all of these guys get nicked up...why penalize mario for it?

Dutchrudder
01-27-2012, 11:06 AM
You can X carolina off the list....that'll be too much money tied up into 1 position with Williams & Johnson & they've got other more pressing needs elsewhere.

Why not? The Panthers had a top 10 offense and a bottom 10 defense this year. They are a young team and a guy like Mario is a building block to that defense. They were 25th in the league in sacks last year and need some better pass rush. Sure they could use help in the secondary, but this trade wouldn't preclude them from addressing that. They just gave crazy money out last year to guys like Deangelo Williams, Charles Johnson, Jon Beason and Ryan Kalil. I think they will be willing to shell out for Mario.

Mr teX
01-27-2012, 01:40 PM
So what if someone offers foster a huge front loaded contract that if we match will kill all our cap space? if we turn it away all we get for him is a first round pick. Do you think this team would be better of with Mario and an extra first round pick minus foster or with foster minus Mario? We already know what kind of a defense we have without Mario, top 2! Now, how good would our offense of been without Foster? LOL at that.

not saying Tate is as good as foster, but Tate is younger... & he did hold his own when foster went down early in the season so i don't see why that's something that's LOL worthy. People forget that we nearly had 2 1000 yd. rushers this year.

The other thing is no team is going to give a 1st for Foster & then give him a front loaded contract. That's just too much, even for a talent like foster. Even if the 32nd overall pick is given up to acquire him, that's still 590 pts according to the draft value chart.

gafftop
01-27-2012, 01:56 PM
1) It is true that there are not as many dominate offenses in the league. We just so happen to have NE and GB on our schedule next year. I have no doubt we can make the playoffs without Mario next season. But unless you're happy to just be there (see Baltimore last 4 seasons), we have a much better shot at a championship with Mario on our team. 2) Everybody plays nicked up in the NFL (i.e. Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans). I could make the argument that Mario Williams led the team in sacks 4 out of 5 times from 2006-2010 while playing through those injuries. In that time span he accounted for 48 of 144 sacks (33%). That's pretty valuable to me.

We had NO on our schedule this year and Mario did nothing. Go back over the years Mario has a habit of disappearing in games.

We disagree on what gives us a better chance to go further in the playoffs. You think Mario and the draft choices. I don't want to have to count on rookies to be the difference makers next year. I want one preferably 2 proven wrs and another proven Cb vs Mario. Our D could have got us there this year without Mario. Our weaknesses against the Ravens was not the D.

Mario was the best player on a crap defense.

My feelings on Mario have to do with health and motor. Maybe the motor got better this year too short of time to tell, but the trend on Mario's health is going the other way.

badboy
01-27-2012, 01:58 PM
Short list of teams that would like to get Mario:

Cleveland Browns, 4-3 defense that needs another DE to pair with Jabaal Sheard. They have lots of capspace to sign him to a new deal. They have picks 4 and 22 in the 1st of this draft. Could possibly give up 22 alone for Mario or #4 and a 3rd for Mario and our 1st at 26. Lots of possibilities for the Texans at #4, Blackmon or Claiborne could be there. Could sell RG3 to the Redskins for their 1st and 2nd. Then pick a guy like Decastro at 6 and a WR at 39.

Cincinnati Bengals, 4-3 defense that could use a great DE. They have picks 17 and 21. If the Texans did a tag and trade for Mario I would expect us to send Mario and our 1st for both of their picks in the 1st. I think that would be rather fair. Maybe they could toss in a 4th or something too.

Carolina Panthers, 4-3 defense with a young team looking to improve upon one of the worst defenses in the league this year. Put him on the other side of Charles Johnson and they have a good pass rush. Panthers pick at 9, which is kinda pricey for Mario alone. It may have to be their 1st and 2nd, for Mario and our 2nd.

Miami Dolphins, switching to a 4-3 defense, they will need to change some personnel for the switch. Mario would be an ideal building block to help Cameron Wake with the pass rush. They pick at 8, so I would think something like the Panthers trade I suggested would work.

Seattle Seahawks, 4-3 team that needs two DEs. They don't have a lot of pass rush, but Mario could turn that around in an easy division like the NFC West. They pick at 12, which may work as an outright trade for Mario, but I think they want a QB like Tannehill. I would expect them to give up their 2011 1st, 2nd and 2012 2nd for Mario and our 1st with hopes of Tannehill falling to 26.Not sure why Mario would agree to any of those except Bengals; none give him shot at SB. I'm still leaning towards NE but if they win SB, might feel he is not needed.

Dutchrudder
01-27-2012, 02:11 PM
Not sure why Mario would agree to any of those except Bengals; none give him shot at SB. I'm still leaning towards NE but if they win SB, might feel he is not needed.

Oh, I didn't really think about the playoff factor, just teams looking for a 4-3 DE that have cap space. I suppose the Falcons would be an option too, but they don't have a 1st to trade and the Texans need picks this year.

Mario doesn't really strike me as the kind of guy who only cares about winning a Super Bowl. If that's his top priority then he should give the Texans a discount and stay here. The Texans are his best option for winning a Super Bowl. The AFC South should be ours to lose for at least 2 more years, which gives us a great chance of making the playoffs each year. Even more so if he stays for 10 mill a year.

badboy
01-27-2012, 02:34 PM
Oh, I didn't really think about the playoff factor, just teams looking for a 4-3 DE that have cap space. I suppose the Falcons would be an option too, but they don't have a 1st to trade and the Texans need picks this year.

Mario doesn't really strike me as the kind of guy who only cares about winning a Super Bowl. If that's his top priority then he should give the Texans a discount and stay here. The Texans are his best option for winning a Super Bowl. The AFC South should be ours to lose for at least 2 more years, which gives us a great chance of making the playoffs each year. Even more so if he stays for 10 mill a year.I fully believe Mario will be a Texan but if he agrees to be traded so Texans can get compensation, it would have to be with a team strong enough to go deep.

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 02:49 PM
We had NO on our schedule this year and Mario did nothing. Go back over the years Mario has a habit of disappearing in games.

We disagree on what gives us a better chance to go further in the playoffs. You think Mario and the draft choices. I don't want to have to count on rookies to be the difference makers next year. I want one preferably 2 proven wrs and another proven Cb vs Mario. Our D could have got us there this year without Mario. Our weaknesses against the Ravens was not the D.

Mario was the best player on a crap defense.

My feelings on Mario have to do with health and motor. Maybe the motor got better this year too short of time to tell, but the trend on Mario's health is going the other way.

Mario Williams had 0 sacks against the Saints, but that is NOT why we lost to them. First and 10 at the Saints 11 ended in a field goal as did first and goal at the nine and first and 10 at the 14 so instead of a potentially huge lead they went to halftime just six ahead. Those were more like redzone woes against a team with an explosive offense that allowed them to hang around and then they were unstoppable in the 4th when they were clicking on all cylinders.

Disappearing? Really? Can you prove your statement? I just backed my claim with FACTS. Mario Williams LED the team in sacks 4 out of 5 years, some of which he played through injuries. From 2006-2010 he played all but the last 3 games of the 2010 season. Had we not been mathematically out of the playoff hunt, he would have probably finished the season with 10+ sack (he had 8.5 in 13 games) we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. He accounted for 48 of 144 sacks in that span (33% of the teams sacks). You are ignoring these FACTS when you make a claim like he disappeared. At least prove what you are saying, I have no problem conceding to a claim with FACTS to back it (whether I agree or not).

Mario Williams was the best defender on a crap defense AND he was the best player through 5 games this season. You are making an outlandish claim to assume that because we had a decent run down the stretch that we are better off without Williams. I have no problem with someone saying we might not be able to sign him. But to make the argument now that we should just let him go because we were fine with Barwin and Reed down the stretch is absurd. At least at this point. We can discuss how "fine" we are without him IF he signs with another team. There are so many option the Texan can and WILL try to manipulate the cap and get a deal done with Williams. Unless he walks it is ridiculous to even suggest that. Because I'm sure that Texans management, the coaches, or the players do not share your view.

gafftop
01-27-2012, 03:41 PM
Mario Williams had 0 sacks against the Saints, but that is NOT why we lost to them. First and 10 at the Saints 11 ended in a field goal as did first and goal at the nine and first and 10 at the 14 so instead of a potentially huge lead they went to halftime just six ahead. Those were more like redzone woes against a team with an explosive offense that allowed them to hang around and then they were unstoppable in the 4th when they were clicking on all cylinders.

Disappearing? Really? Can you prove your statement? I just backed my claim with FACTS. Mario Williams LED the team in sacks 4 out of 5 years, some of which he played through injuries. From 2006-2010 he played all but the last 3 games of the 2010 season. Had we not been mathematically out of the playoff hunt, he would have probably finished the season with 10+ sack (he had 8.5 in 13 games) we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. He accounted for 48 of 144 sacks in that span (33% of the teams sacks). You are ignoring these FACTS when you make a claim like he disappeared. At least prove what you are saying, I have no problem conceding to a claim with FACTS to back it (whether I agree or not).

Mario Williams was the best defender on a crap defense AND he was the best player through 5 games this season. You are making an outlandish claim to assume that because we had a decent run down the stretch that we are better off without Williams. I have no problem with someone saying we might not be able to sign him. But to make the argument now that we should just let him go because we were fine with Barwin and Reed down the stretch is absurd. At least at this point. We can discuss how "fine" we are without him IF he signs with another team. There are so many option the Texan can and WILL try to manipulate the cap and get a deal done with Williams. Unless he walks it is ridiculous to even suggest that. Because I'm sure that Texans management, the coaches, or the players do not share your view.

STATS

It is not that the Texans are better just because Mario is not on the team, it is that without signing Mario we have additional cap space to acquire players that will make the Texans better off than they were at the end of the season. Look how 2 FAs in the secondary helped this year. How much help could another WR or two and/or a CB help us next year.

Another issue, I would be curious to know why wasn't Mario's contract reworked before the season last year?

You believe want you believe and I believe what I believe. I don't think that will change and I have no problem with that.

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 03:48 PM
STATS

It is not that the Texans are better just because Mario is not on the team, it is that without signing Mario we have additional cap space to acquire players that will make the Texans better off than they were at the end of the season. Look how 2 FAs in the secondary helped this year. How much help could another WR or two and/or a CB help us next year.

Another issue, I would be curious to know why wasn't Mario's contract reworked before the season last year?

You believe want you believe and I believe what I believe. I don't think that will change and I have no problem with that.

I have no problem with this line of thinking. You're right this is a route we would likely take IF we don't sign Mario. BUT we are not thinking like that right now. We want to get a deal done before March 13th. Free Agency does not begin until March 13th. So your argument is really irrelevant until March 13th, or whenever Mario Williams signs a contract. My argument is the reasoning we are currently using in negotiations with Mario and his agent. Yours will only come into play IF we do not sign Mario. My argument is Plan A. Your argument is the alternative IF Plan A fails.

DocBar
01-27-2012, 07:47 PM
I fully believe Mario will be a Texan but if he agrees to be traded so Texans can get compensation, it would have to be with a team strong enough to go deep.That's nothing more than wishful thinking. It's a lot more likely that you're bull****ting, though. There's no way that any of us fans have a comfortable feeling at all about MW.

ThaShark316
01-27-2012, 08:01 PM
I don't get this whole "let Mario go to get other players". Fam, we ain't got no cap space, lol.

gafftop
01-27-2012, 08:17 PM
I have no problem with this line of thinking. You're right this is a route we would likely take IF we don't sign Mario. BUT we are not thinking like that right now. We want to get a deal done before March 13th. Free Agency does not begin until March 13th. So your argument is really irrelevant until March 13th, or whenever Mario Williams signs a contract. My argument is the reasoning we are currently using in negotiations with Mario and his agent. Yours will only come into play IF we do not sign Mario. My argument is Plan A. Your argument is the alternative IF Plan A fails.

I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

Kaiser Toro
01-27-2012, 08:33 PM
I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

All of the above, and many others. I can't recall any major extension occurring after the CBA was concluded. Perhaps the same reason Ray Rice was not extended, but most likely because of all of the accounting that needs to be wrapped up and forecast (future cap).

This issue with a top player, is not local to us.

beerlover
01-27-2012, 08:38 PM
I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

My biggest question was IF he could play OLB? IF so, how well & for how long, not sure how you structure a long term deal off that :pop:

thunderkyss
01-27-2012, 09:11 PM
You're an idiot if you don't think Mario would have had 14+ sacks had he played a full season. He did get hurt at the end of 20010 & he barely played the 2011 season.

But the man has played through enough injuries that I (& anyone in the NFL) wouldn't think he's injury prone, or that he would fake/play off an injury to get out of playing.


I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.



Let's see how other players who didn't get signing bonuses with their contracts play it out. Like Adrian Peterson. His latest deal had no bonus.

The last 2 or 3 years of their contracts bring up their yearly pay over the terms of the contract. Without playing out the final year, Mario's earnings over the previous 5 years would be lower.

Had Mario gotten a signing bonus, the sooner he gets a new contract, the better.

There is no doubt to the Texans or Wade Phillips what Mario is worth to the team.

He will be a Texans in 2012 & beyond.

Kaiser Toro
01-27-2012, 09:18 PM
We shouldn't be calling good standing members idiots, and we cannot expect every forecast (14+ sacks) to attain to 100%.

Keep the gloves on, but keep it above the belt.

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 10:12 PM
I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. :mcnugget: Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

Mario Williams has been a 4-3 DE his entire career. Wade Phillips implemented the 3-4 scheme and envisioned Williams converting to a OLB in the 3-4 scheme. Why would you sign a player who played 4-3 DE his entire career to a long term contract when you have NEVER seen him play the 3-4 scheme? That should be self-explanatory.

beerlover
01-27-2012, 10:35 PM
53 sacks for 54 million, 14 sacks being his career high & 4.5 career low equates to around 8.8333 sacks per year. So what 8.5 mil wouldn't be fair based off outdated, yet factual information? should it escalate because of Wade Phillips system, stay the same because there is more talent around him or should it drop based off consecutive years ending up on IR? Glad it's not my call, all I'll gotta say :mariopalm:

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 10:49 PM
53 sacks for 54 million, 14 sacks being his career high & 4.5 career low equates to around 8.8333 sacks per year. So what 8.5 mil wouldn't be fair based off outdated, yet factual information? should it escalate because of Wade Phillips system, stay the same because there is more talent around him or should it drop based off consecutive years ending up on IR? Glad it's not my call, all I'll gotta say :mariopalm:

How much of that 54 million do you reckon he actually got, because he got no signing bonus? I don't know what the numbers would be to get him sign. We could only speculate. Based on the contracts I've seen for top pass rushers it could be an average salary of $11-$14 million per year. But most of the contracts I saw have around $30-$40 guaranteed so it they average around $5-$7 million per year guaranteed. Most people look at the entire contract an ignore the guaranteed money. That's the main thing to pay attention to. The other money usually backloaded and doesn't always get paid out.

badboy
01-27-2012, 11:11 PM
For me it is about what the TEAM looks like with and without Mario.
Let's say that enough other contracts could be eliminated or re-worked to sign our other major FAs (& I think they can). So back to sentence one. I will use spotrac base at$13.8 & cap @ $15.1m.

I believe Mario will re-sign with 1st year cap of $8m or less allowing $7m to go get a starting FA like

ayne Bowe
#82 WR


Kansas City Chiefs | Official Team Site

Height: 6-2 Weight: 221 Age: 27

Born: 9/21/1984 Miami , FL

College: LSU

Experience: 5th season

High School: Miami Norland HS [FL]
REC
81
YDS
1,159
AVG
14.3
TDS
5

or Mario leaves allowing the full amount to be used. Even better if we get some compensation in draft picks. Either way the Texans will be better than last year. Let's not be confused, Brooks did not replace Mario. Barwin did (12.5 sacks).

badboy
01-27-2012, 11:12 PM
How much of that 54 million do you reckon he actually got, because he got no signing bonus? I don't know what the numbers would be to get him sign. We could only speculate. Based on the contracts I've seen for top pass rushers it could be an average salary of $11-$14 million per year. But most of the contracts I saw have around $30-$40 guaranteed so it they average around $5-$7 million per year guaranteed. Most people look at the entire contract an ignore the guaranteed money. That's the main thing to pay attention to. The other money usually backloaded and doesn't always get paid out.Every nickle with possible exception of 2011 incentive bonus which we do not know what it consisted of.

cbs1507
01-27-2012, 11:45 PM
Every nickle with possible exception of 2011 incentive bonus which we do not know what it consisted of.

But he only got $26 million guaranteed. Since some people claim he has not performed well and is "injury prone" then he could not have gotten much more than that.

welsh texan
01-28-2012, 03:44 AM
Every nickle with possible exception of 2011 incentive bonus which we do not know what it consisted of.

I have no way of backing this up, but I definitely remember the year Mario got snubbed from the Pro-bowl there was talk that he'd missed out on a big bonus because of it, the following year he went and presumably got the bonus.

I'd be surprised if Mario saw all of that money, he had some statistically sparse seasons when the talent around him was poor and he couldn't do it all alone.

We'll maybe find out what kind of person Mario is by the end of all this. I mean, no matter what contract he signs he's going to be set up for life, and its hard to think of a better positioned team than ours to give him a ring in the near future who's actually likely to sign him to more money.

Of course the joker in the pack could be that we don't really know how much Mario likes playing OLB, he makes all the right sounds about it, and it seems like he'd see that Wade is allowing him to be in a position to succeed, but how much of that is just professionalism and whether he really is happy doing it will play a big part in negotiations as well. Oh yeh, and the fact that Antonio Smith's contract only has one or two years to run and Mario could see a point in the future where he's asked to move full time to 3-4 DE may also be an issue. He certainly wasn't happy at that prospect this time last year.

dalemurphy
01-28-2012, 09:02 AM
But he only got $26 million guaranteed. Since some people claim he has not performed well and is "injury prone" then he could not have gotten much more than that.

You don't understand contracts. $26 million guaranteed means that even if he had a career-ending injury in his 1st year, he would still get at least $26 million. Since he fulfilled his entire contract, he has earned all of it. The rest of the contract isn't monopoly money. It's real money that comes to a player as they continue to be employed by the team.

For instance, a 5 year, $60 million contract with a $20 million signing bonus, would break down like this:

$20 million guaranteed and handed to the player when he signs a contract. Then, the remaining $40 million is spread over the 5 years as salary.

year one-$5 million
year two-$6 million
year three-$9 million
year four-$10 million
year five-$10 million

After one year, he would've earned $ 25 million, in total, after three years, he would've earned $40 million in total.

If the team were to cut the player before year 5, then he would not earn the last $10 million of the $60 he signed for.

welsh texan
01-28-2012, 09:22 AM
You don't understand contracts. $26 million guaranteed means that even if he had a career-ending injury in his 1st year, he would still get at least $26 million. Since he fulfilled his entire contract, he has earned all of it. The rest of the contract isn't monopoly money. It's real money that comes to a player as they continue to be employed by the team.

For instance, a 5 year, $60 million contract with a $20 million signing bonus, would break down like this:

$20 million guaranteed and handed to the player when he signs a contract. Then, the remaining $40 million is spread over the 5 years as salary.

year one-$5 million
year two-$6 million
year three-$9 million
year four-$10 million
year five-$10 million

After one year, he would've earned $ 25 million, in total, after three years, he would've earned $40 million in total.

If the team were to cut the player before year 5, then he would not earn the last $10 million of the $60 he signed for.

What about missed incentives Dale? Whats the point in having incentives in a contract if he's going to get paid that money either way? Think you may have made a slight mistake here.

The player doesn't necessarily make the entire amount of his contract just because he made it to the end of it.

dalemurphy
01-28-2012, 10:07 AM
What about missed incentives Dale? Whats the point in having incentives in a contract if he's going to get paid that money either way? Think you may have made a slight mistake here.

The player doesn't necessarily make the entire amount of his contract just because he made it to the end of it.

That's a different issue. We're getting into what is being reported when a contract gets signed. Usually, I think, the number reported is based on salary and bonus and sometimes easily hit incentives. But, one can never know for sure.

My example was stressing simplicity. Clearly, Mario earned "essentially" all of his reported $54 million over the past six years... and, the only way he wouldn't have earned almost all of it would have been if he was released or retired.

welsh texan
01-28-2012, 10:33 AM
That's a different issue. We're getting into what is being reported when a contract gets signed. Usually, I think, the number reported is based on salary and bonus and sometimes easily hit incentives. But, one can never know for sure.

My example was stressing simplicity. Clearly, Mario earned "essentially" all of his reported $54 million over the past six years... and, the only way he wouldn't have earned almost all of it would have been if he was released or retired.

With the egotistical nature of NFL players, coupled with the lengths a club will go to to keep their true cap situation under wraps, I'd imagine both parties would wish to quote the highest possible figure that could be attained in any contract.

Now I don't know, but I get the impression that a lot of these contracts are negotiated on the premise of some unlikely-to-be-attained incentives, such as making the pro bowl, which is definitely one i've read about years ago in Mario's contract.

I don't know, I'd be interested to find out more. I understand why the specifics of current contracts are not made public, but is there anywhere where previous contracts of retired players, or 'example' contracts written up hypothetically by out of work GM's doing journalism? I'd love to find out a little more about this.

76Texan
01-28-2012, 11:10 AM
Mario Williams has been a 4-3 DE his entire career. Wade Phillips implemented the 3-4 scheme and envisioned Williams converting to a OLB in the 3-4 scheme. Why would you sign a player who played 4-3 DE his entire career to a long term contract when you have NEVER seen him play the 3-4 scheme? That should be self-explanatory.

1. Mario (and other guys on the team, like Barwin) had played 34 OLB from time to time the previous two years (at least) under Bush.

2. Brooks Reed played some 99% of the time as a 43 DE in college.

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 12:03 PM
You don't understand contracts. $26 million guaranteed means that even if he had a career-ending injury in his 1st year, he would still get at least $26 million. Since he fulfilled his entire contract, he has earned all of it. The rest of the contract isn't monopoly money. It's real money that comes to a player as they continue to be employed by the team.

For instance, a 5 year, $60 million contract with a $20 million signing bonus, would break down like this:

$20 million guaranteed and handed to the player when he signs a contract. Then, the remaining $40 million is spread over the 5 years as salary.

year one-$5 million
year two-$6 million
year three-$9 million
year four-$10 million
year five-$10 million

After one year, he would've earned $ 25 million, in total, after three years, he would've earned $40 million in total.

If the team were to cut the player before year 5, then he would not earn the last $10 million of the $60 he signed for.
You don't understand contract because that is entirely false. Guaranteed money is not necessarily paid up front. The ONLY guaranteed money paid upfront is a signing bonus. The guaranteed money not paid upfront is base salary and it is dispersed over the life of the contract. The rest of the money had to be earned through incentives and meeting performance expectations. Since so many people claim he did not play well and was "injury prone" he could not have gotten much more than $26 million. Mario Williams did not get a signing bonus but he got $26 million guaranteed, which was paid over the life of the contract along with any other non guaranteed money he earned.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 12:06 PM
For me it is about what the TEAM looks like with and without Mario.

But we don't know what this team looks like without Mario. We know how stacked the team looks with Mario. He goes down & our defense is still able to perform..... "next man up" looks like a phenom, but it's the result of consistently adding talent to the team.

Imagine we had no Mario Williams & we lost Connor Barwin, Jj Watt, or Antonio Smith. Would our defense have survived with Jesse Nading, Brahman, or Jamison taking major snaps in 2011?

I seriously doubt it.


Let's say that enough other contracts could be eliminated or re-worked to sign our other major FAs (& I think they can). So back to sentence one. I will use spotrac base at$13.8 & cap @ $15.1m.

I believe Mario will re-sign with 1st year cap of $8m or less allowing $7m to go get a starting FA like


Any scenario that involves losing Mario Williams means we need to find another edge rusher. Wade Phillips went into the season with three, Mario, Barwin, Reed.


Either way the Texans will be better than last year. Let's not be confused, Brooks did not replace Mario. Barwin did (12.5 sacks).

& behind Reed, we have Nading & Brahman. Replacing an edge rusher like Mario is not going to be easy. It took us long enough to get him & long enough to get the help he needs.

Barwin got 11.5 sacks with 4 other players getting 5 or more sacks, Mario has never had that kind of "help" yet has delivered similar production (even working through injury). 11.5/44=26% of the teams sacks.

Mario had 12 sacks in 2008, the Texans had 25. 12/50=50% of the teams sacks.

In 2010, the Texans had 18 sacks. Mario had 8.5 sacks. 8.5/18=47%

It's not apples to apples, & Barwin did not "replace" Mario. It is more than likely had Mario stayed healthy he would have had 20 sacks...... much closer to 50%

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 12:07 PM
1. Mario (and other guys on the team, like Barwin) had played 34 OLB from time to time the previous two years (at least) under Bush.

2. Brooks Reed played some 99% of the time as a 43 DE in college.

1. We ran a 4-3 defense from 2006 until Wade Phillips was hired. I do not know where you got this from.

2. That may be true, but he did not "outperform" Williams in his 11 games down the stretch. Williams 5 sacks in 5 games. Reed 6 sacks in 11 games, and he failed to record a sack in the last 5 games.

ThaShark316
01-28-2012, 12:12 PM
For me it is about what the TEAM looks like with and without Mario.
Let's say that enough other contracts could be eliminated or re-worked to sign our other major FAs (& I think they can). So back to sentence one. I will use spotrac base at$13.8 & cap @ $15.1m.

I believe Mario will re-sign with 1st year cap of $8m or less allowing $7m to go get a starting FA like

ayne Bowe
#82 WR


Kansas City Chiefs | Official Team Site

Height: 6-2 Weight: 221 Age: 27

Born: 9/21/1984 Miami , FL

College: LSU

Experience: 5th season

High School: Miami Norland HS [FL]
REC
81
YDS
1,159
AVG
14.3
TDS
5

or Mario leaves allowing the full amount to be used. Even better if we get some compensation in draft picks. Either way the Texans will be better than last year. Let's not be confused, Brooks did not replace Mario. Barwin did (12.5 sacks).

Two things:

1. We don't have cap space for free agents, man..unless I'm losing my mind.

2. Bowe's going to take #2 WR money? He's going to want what Rice got from Seattle last year.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 12:25 PM
1. We ran a 4-3 defense from 2006 until Wade Phillips was hired. I do not know where you got this from.



We played out of a 3-4 front several times..... way too many times if you ask me... under Frank Bush. I personally gained the opinion that Okoye would fare much better as a 3-4 end because of his performance during that time.

If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention, because it happened a lot.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 12:27 PM
2. Bowe's going to take #2 WR money? He's going to want what Rice got from Seattle last year.

very true, he will not be signed to a 3 year $10M contract. Especially not when his first year's salary would be $475K & a signing bonus less south of $1M

:kubepalm:

steelbtexan
01-28-2012, 12:29 PM
1.TK, we do know what the team looks like without MW.
2. You can play the what if game at all positions. Like, What if D.Brown/J.JO gets hurt etc....
3. Yes, Barwin did outperform MW the last 11 games of the season. Barwin 11.5 sacks= MW 0 sacks. Barwin numerous big plays/ MW 0 big plays.
4. I'm very high on Braman. I belive he could become a Barwin type player. The talent is there. The Texans should be looking to add depth in FA/draft if they let MW walk.

Like I've said before I'm not against re-signing MW. But only if he's willing to sign a cap friendly deal. So that the $$$$ will be there to re-sign AF/Myers Briesel etc.... But it's unlikely MW will sign a cap friendly deal. IMHO MW's worth alot more $$$$ on the open market. Life will go on without MW. Atleast it did this season.

Allstar
01-28-2012, 12:34 PM
If we don't re-sign Mario, I'd love to see a guy like Reggie Wayne in steel blue. Of course Vincent Jackson would be great, but he'll be a little too much I think...

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 12:36 PM
We played out of a 3-4 front several times..... way too many times if you ask me... under Frank Bush. I personally gained the opinion that Okoye would fare much better as a 3-4 end because of his performance during that time.

If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention, because it happened a lot.

4-3 was our base defense. If we ran a few snaps of 3-4, I guess I didn't notice. I guess that's not too surprising because teams implement wrinkles of other schemes all the time. Some downhill running teams, implement zone blocking wrinkles every now and again (Baltimore does it). I even seen some other 4-3 teams mix in some 3-4 looks and vice versa. It's not like it was our main defense. It was just that, a wrinkle. Mario Williams was still a 4-3 DE at the end of the day.

Corrosion
01-28-2012, 12:43 PM
We played out of a 3-4 front several times..... way too many times if you ask me... under Frank Bush. I personally gained the opinion that Okoye would fare much better as a 3-4 end because of his performance during that time.

If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention, because it happened a lot.

I wonder how many times you and I stated that same point ..... :kitten:

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 12:49 PM
1.TK, we do know what the team looks like without MW.
2. You can play the what if game at all positions. Like, What if D.Brown/J.JO gets hurt etc....
3. Yes, Barwin did outperform MW the last 11 games of the season. Barwin 11.5 sacks= MW 0 sacks. Barwin numerous big plays/ MW 0 big plays.
4. I'm very high on Braman. I belive he could become a Barwin type player. The talent is there. The Texans should be looking to add depth in FA/draft if they let MW walk.

Like I've said before I'm not against re-signing MW. But only if he's willing to sign a cap friendly deal. So that the $$$$ will be there to re-sign AF/Myers Briesel etc.... But it's unlikely MW will sign a cap friendly deal. IMHO MW's worth alot more $$$$ on the open market. Life will go on without MW. Atleast it did this season.
1. He is refering to depth. What if Barwin or Reed goes out? Then can we say we're deep. You're ignoring the fact that these players were the "next man up" for Mario. Who is the "next man up" for them?
2. I just did.
3. That is like saying TJ Yates outperformed Matt Schaub because he won a playoff game. Please. Barwin only recorded 2 sacks in the 1st 8 weeks. So he had 9.5 sacks in the 11 games without Mario. I could make the argument that it took him 8 weeks to get comfortable in the system. Mario had 5 sacks in the first 5 games. But you cannot say Barwin "outperformed" a guy on IR. I sure hope he could.
4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.


Dude I don't think you even know what a cap friendly deal is so you should just stop speculating. William had a salary of $18 million. No pass rusher makes $18 million a year. This highest paid pass rusher Julius Peppers 6 years $84 million (14 million a year). Oh an keep in mind guaranteed money. $30-$40 million is the average guaranteed for top pass rushers. You can speculate all you want but the numbers will be in that realm. You're also ignoring the fact that we can restructure the deals of players we have on contract and that we have 12 other FAs some of whom might be cap casualties.

Corrosion
01-28-2012, 01:08 PM
I'll be glad when this Mario saga is over so we can put it behind us .... and quit arguing about it.

Everyone would like to see MW back .... Some just have a limit as to how much they are willing to pay and what it costs going forward in terms of cap flexability and dept at other spots.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 01:32 PM
4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.


Exactly.... there were games where Reed & Barwin played the entire game, because the depth behind them wasn't very good. That is the same situation that led to Mario getting knicks & bruises that turned into groins & other problems, leading some to believe he is injury prone.

This is a pressure defense, we must get pressure to be affective. Look what happened to the Giants this season, they lost their pass rushers early in the season & luckily won their division @ 9-7 because they got their pass rushers back at the right time.

Our pass rush may very well have looked as futile as theirs, had we lost JjWatt or Antonio Smith during the meat of the season & we never would have seen the Texans in the post season.

Connor Barwin has proven (to me) that he is a starter. Brooks not so much. Mario.... yes.

Good teams don't get better by replacing starters with back-ups.

You don't replace Foster with Tate, Aj with Jj, Schaub with Tate...... you don't replace Mario with Brooks.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 01:38 PM
2. You can play the what if game at all positions. Like, What if D.Brown/J.JO gets hurt etc....


Which is why most of us, who know what we're talking about, were thrilled to learn Butler was returning for 2011 & equally concerned when we found he was going on IR.

Butler performed extremely well in place of Brown to start the 2010 season..... but you don't replace starters with back-ups.

Get rid of Mario & an outside pass rusher becomes your top priority in the offseason. & if Mario does reach free agency, he's hands down the top outside pass rusher.

Forget getting a WR2 in FA or the draft, outside pass rusher is much more valuable & much more of a need.

Forget Dwayne Bowe or Reggie Wayne. If we don't sign Mario, we'll be looking to sign the second best outside pass rusher in FA & (or) targeting the best one in the draft.

dalemurphy
01-28-2012, 03:08 PM
1. He is refering to depth. What if Barwin or Reed goes out? Then can we say we're deep. You're ignoring the fact that these players were the "next man up" for Mario. Who is the "next man up" for them?
2. I just did.
3. That is like saying TJ Yates outperformed Matt Schaub because he won a playoff game. Please. Barwin only recorded 2 sacks in the 1st 8 weeks. So he had 9.5 sacks in the 11 games without Mario. I could make the argument that it took him 8 weeks to get comfortable in the system. Mario had 5 sacks in the first 5 games. But you cannot say Barwin "outperformed" a guy on IR. I sure hope he could.
4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.


Dude I don't think you even know what a cap friendly deal is so you should just stop speculating. William had a salary of $18 million. No pass rusher makes $18 million a year. This highest paid pass rusher Julius Peppers 6 years $84 million (14 million a year). Oh an keep in mind guaranteed money. $30-$40 million is the average guaranteed for top pass rushers. You can speculate all you want but the numbers will be in that realm. You're also ignoring the fact that we can restructure the deals of players we have on contract and that we have 12 other FAs some of whom might be cap casualties.


The more cap consumed by 1 player = the less team depth!

Not signing Mario allows the team to improve depth at a number of positions, including 3-4 OLB. There is no reason the Texans can't draft a guy at OLB and also sign an affordable FA at the position. Nobody is suggesting cutting Mario loose and not replacing his roster spot with anyone.

dalemurphy
01-28-2012, 03:19 PM
Good teams don't get better by replacing starters with back-ups.

You don't replace Foster with Tate, Aj with Jj, Schaub with Tate...... you don't replace Mario with Brooks.


Drew Bledsoe with Tom Brady?
Reggie Bush with Pierre Thomas?
Bret Favre with Aaron Rodgers?

Bernard Pollard with Glover Quin?
Zach Weigert with Eric Winston?
Steve Slaton with Arian Foster?


and 1000s of other examples! Good organizations make difficult and wise decisions. Look at the recent history of all the consistently good teams: Philadelphia, NE, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans... their transaction history is littered with what you argue teams don't get better doing. Getting rid of Mario, in itself, doesn't make the Texans better. But, depending on how those resources are redistributed, the Texans could be much better for it.

steelbtexan
01-28-2012, 03:20 PM
Which is why most of us, who know what we're talking about, were thrilled to learn Butler was returning for 2011 & equally concerned when we found he was going on IR.

Butler performed extremely well in place of Brown to start the 2010 season..... but you don't replace starters with back-ups.

Get rid of Mario & an outside pass rusher becomes your top priority in the offseason. & if Mario does reach free agency, he's hands down the top outside pass rusher.

Forget getting a WR2 in FA or the draft, outside pass rusher is much more valuable & much more of a need.

Forget Dwayne Bowe or Reggie Wayne. If we don't sign Mario, we'll be looking to sign the second best outside pass rusher in FA & (or) targeting the best one in the draft.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Sorry Reed didn't do enough for you to be considered a solid starter on a great defense.

If you could draft another Reed in the 2/3rd rd and save MW's 18 mil and improve the team in other areas would you?

I noticed other teams Pats/GB/NYG didn't go out and sign the #2 rated pass rusher in FA. They draft them.

I just dont get fans love affair with an always injuerd MW. Before the season started I started a thread MW will be injured in game O/U 8. The answer was U. If the Texans re-sign MW I will start up another O/U 8 thread. This time I believe the answer will be O. The reason is his offseason workout regimine will be better due to injury rehab.

steelbtexan
01-28-2012, 03:29 PM
Drew Bledsoe with Tom Brady?
Reggie Bush with Pierre Thomas?
Bret Favre with Aaron Rodgers?

Bernard Pollard with Glover Quin?
Zach Weigert with Eric Winston?
Steve Slaton with Arian Foster?


and 1000s of other examples! Good organizations make difficult and wise decisions. Look at the recent history of all the consistently good teams: Philadelphia, NE, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans... their transaction history is littered with what you argue teams don't get better doing. Getting rid of Mario, in itself, doesn't make the Texans better. But, depending on how those resources are redistributed, the Texans could be much better for it.

Exactly,

The pro MW crowd see the potential in MW.

The crowd that says MW is a luxury item that the Texans can do with or without look at MW's history without ever reaching that potential in college and now the pros. Even though they had the #2 defense without MW. People are rightfully begining to wonder if MW will ever reach his potential.

The sky didn't fall because MW got injured and was lost for the season. I would rather spend the $$$$ re-signing the other Texans FA's and drafting a guy like Cam Johnson or Andre Branch in the 2nd rd. (They both remind me of Reed)

steelbtexan
01-28-2012, 03:42 PM
1. He is refering to depth. What if Barwin or Reed goes out? Then can we say we're deep. You're ignoring the fact that these players were the "next man up" for Mario. Who is the "next man up" for them?
2. I just did.
3. That is like saying TJ Yates outperformed Matt Schaub because he won a playoff game. Please. Barwin only recorded 2 sacks in the 1st 8 weeks. So he had 9.5 sacks in the 11 games without Mario. I could make the argument that it took him 8 weeks to get comfortable in the system. Mario had 5 sacks in the first 5 games. But you cannot say Barwin "outperformed" a guy on IR. I sure hope he could.
4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.


Dude I don't think you even know what a cap friendly deal is so you should just stop speculating. William had a salary of $18 million. No pass rusher makes $18 million a year. This highest paid pass rusher Julius Peppers 6 years $84 million (14 million a year). Oh an keep in mind guaranteed money. $30-$40 million is the average guaranteed for top pass rushers. You can speculate all you want but the numbers will be in that realm. You're also ignoring the fact that we can restructure the deals of players we have on contract and that we have 12 other FAs some of whom might be cap casualties.

1. Whoever would be drafted. Cam Johnson/Andre Branch are my favs
2. Yes you did, Didn't answer the JoJo ? though.
3. For the games Yates started he was. If Schaub isn't healthy next yr then the Texans need to either 1. Look for another QB. 2. Make Yates the starter and let Schaub walk.
4. Braman/C.Johnson or Branch is great depth at OLB. IMHO (The Texans interviewed Cam Johnson at the Sr. Bowl. This could be insight into Wade/Ricks thinking on what to do about the MW situation.)
5. You have no idea what I know or dont know. So quit making presumptions about me please. (Thank you)

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 04:24 PM
Lets just agree to disagree.

Sorry Reed didn't do enough for you to be considered a solid starter on a great defense. He would be solid coming off the bench. ZERO sacks in the last 5 games showed how teams learned to use his "high motor" against himself. They led him upfield and the QB stepped up in the pocket. There, problem solve. He has a high motor but he is not physically imposing. With the Barwin/Reed combo you have to devise a bunch of stunts and blitzes to free him up. With Mario/Barwin not so much. Mario and Smith worked well together (9.5 sacks in the 1st 5 games). Not so much with Reed and Smith (8 sacks in the last 11 games). Wade Phillips would love to get a chance to have Williams, Barwin and Reed on the field at the same time. You can't do that without Williams. ;)

If you could draft another Reed in the 2/3rd rd and save MW's 18 mil and improve the team in other areas would you? I'm sure this is Plan B IF we don't sign Mario. Mario Williams is Plan A.

I noticed other teams Pats/GB/NYG didn't go out and sign the #2 rated pass rusher in FA. They draft them. Another example of half ass truth. Those teams you mentioned did draft guys and they kept them (Tuck and Umenyiora for NY; Mayo and Wilfork for NE). You're acting like Mario Williams is coming from another team...we drafted him. We should keep a player we drafted and develop. Otherwise, we will just continue to draft and develop players for other teams.

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 04:28 PM
1. Whoever would be drafted. Cam Johnson/Andre Branch are my favs
2. Yes you did, Didn't answer the JoJo ? though.
3. For the games Yates started he was. If Schaub isn't healthy next yr then the Texans need to either 1. Look for another QB. 2. Make Yates the starter and let Schaub walk.
4. Braman/C.Johnson or Branch is great depth at OLB. IMHO (The Texans interviewed Cam Johnson at the Sr. Bowl. This could be insight into Wade/Ricks thinking on what to do about the MW situation.)
5. You have no idea what I know or dont know. So quit making presumptions about me please. (Thank you)

1. We very well may just draft OLB for depth. But we will try to sign Mario first. FA starts March 13th the draft is in April. We have a chance to try to deal with Mario before FA starts and we will try to get a deal done before then.
2. I didn't see the J Jo question. But I am certain we would address that in the draft.
3. Please stop with the ill-advised argument. Mario was on IR, anybody who actually got in the game better have produced more than a guy who is on the sideline cheering us on.
4. Williams/Barwin with Reed rotating off the bench is even better.
5. You may be right, but I can speculate about it just as you are about Mario Williams cap figure.

Lucky
01-28-2012, 04:41 PM
Here's a take on the Mario situation (http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showpost.php?p=29144&postcount=22) from Keith Weiland of inthebullseye.com (formerly houstonprofootball.com).

This league is defined by quarterbacks and pass rushers. Everything else is just the trimmings. Barwin had a great November, and Reed was terrific in the playoffs, but we'd be fools to let another great veteran pass rusher like Mario slip through our fingers.

I know I'm the missing link here since I haven't posted a cap page in 2 years, but the team's cap situation is what gives me pause on tagging Mario then trying to sign or trade him. I fear the team might have to cut someone to make room for him on the 2012 cap given Mario's f-tag figure would be tremendous. Best to re-sign him next month.

Btw, signing Mario and extending Foster are not mutually exclusive events. There is a priority though, and Mario is first. Foster's extension can really come anytime before any talk of holdouts come into play, which at a minimum shouldn't happen until OTAs.
It's pretty clear from listening to those that know - Mario can't be tagged. Nothing would prevent Mario from immediately signing the tender and hamstringing the franchise. Either re-sign Mario. Or let him hit free agency.

Norg
01-28-2012, 05:16 PM
Man right now im feeling like i wanna keep mario. Lets get rid of someone else

Demco cody antonio. Somebody

I would really like for mario to play DE.

Watt,mitchell/new nt,mario

badboy
01-28-2012, 05:19 PM
But he only got $26 million guaranteed. Since some people claim he has not performed well and is "injury prone" then he could not have gotten much more than that.He was guaranteed the 26m but made all salary based $. There were I believe some small annual incentive bonus that he may not have earned but my info is less than $2M each year earned or not.

badboy
01-28-2012, 05:27 PM
I have no way of backing this up, but I definitely remember the year Mario got snubbed from the Pro-bowl there was talk that he'd missed out on a big bonus because of it, the following year he went and presumably got the bonus.

I'd be surprised if Mario saw all of that money, he had some statistically sparse seasons when the talent around him was poor and he couldn't do it all alone.

We'll maybe find out what kind of person Mario is by the end of all this. I mean, no matter what contract he signs he's going to be set up for life, and its hard to think of a better positioned team than ours to give him a ring in the near future who's actually likely to sign him to more money.

Of course the joker in the pack could be that we don't really know how much Mario likes playing OLB, he makes all the right sounds about it, and it seems like he'd see that Wade is allowing him to be in a position to succeed, but how much of that is just professionalism and whether he really is happy doing it will play a big part in negotiations as well. Oh yeh, and the fact that Antonio Smith's contract only has one or two years to run and Mario could see a point in the future where he's asked to move full time to 3-4 DE may also be an issue. He certainly wasn't happy at that prospect this time last year.Every pro bowl player of course gets a check for that and many have clauses built in paying "incentive" bonuses as I said. We have no source that breaks contracts down.
I think Williams bought into Wade's D especially with Phillips saying he would create the plays to utilize Mario. If the money is reasonable Mario will sign imo; just not sure when. I am mocking Derek Wolfe now to replace Smith eventually. Watt & Mario will stay where they are. Mario averaging 1 sack per game in first 5 games showed Mario how he can succeed.

badboy
01-28-2012, 05:43 PM
That's a different issue. We're getting into what is being reported when a contract gets signed. Usually, I think, the number reported is based on salary and bonus and sometimes easily hit incentives. But, one can never know for sure.

My example was stressing simplicity. Clearly, Mario earned "essentially" all of his reported $54 million over the past six years... and, the only way he wouldn't have earned almost all of it would have been if he was released or retired.DM you are correct.

dalemurphy
01-28-2012, 05:55 PM
Man right now im feeling like i wanna keep mario. Lets get rid of someone else

Demco cody antonio. Somebody

I would really like for mario to play DE.

Watt,mitchell/new nt,mario


It doesn't work that way. The cap hit for releasing Demeco would be enormous. The cap hit for dumping Antonio would negate any savings you would make from not paying his salary. So, you'd be in the same position but not have Antonio. Cody's contract is small.

badboy
01-28-2012, 05:56 PM
But we don't know what this team looks like without Mario. We know how stacked the team looks with Mario. He goes down & our defense is still able to perform..... "next man up" looks like a phenom, but it's the result of consistently adding talent to the team. TK we do know what team looks like without mario, since 6th game.

Imagine we had no Mario Williams & we lost Connor Barwin, Jj Watt, or Antonio Smith. Would our defense have survived with Jesse Nading, Brahman, or Jamison taking major snaps in 2011? You can no more say what would happen if A,B or C player got hurt than what a draft pick would do. Having said that we do know thatr those players did play and we know the results.

I seriously doubt it.



Any scenario that involves losing Mario Williams means we need to find another edge rusher. Wade Phillips went into the season with three, Mario, Barwin, Reed. Agreed and I have two in mind



& behind Reed, we have Nading & Brahman. Replacing an edge rusher like Mario is not going to be easy. It took us long enough to get him & long enough to get the help he needs. We have already replaced Mario with Barwin. If Mario returns & I think he will, best player starts.


Barwin got 11.5 sacks with 4 other players getting 5 or more sacks, Mario has never had that kind of "help" yet has delivered similar production (even working through injury). 11.5/44=26% of the teams sacks.

Mario had 12 sacks in 2008, the Texans had 25. 12/50=50% of the teams sacks.

In 2010, the Texans had 18 sacks. Mario had 8.5 sacks. 8.5/18=47% Again, you are arguing how good Mario is. I'm not disputing his worth but hoping another team will compensate us for him

It's not apples to apples, & Barwin did not "replace" Mario. It is more than likely had Mario stayed healthy he would have had 20 sacks...... much closer to 50%I can not understand this comment as Barwin did replace Mario for 2011. For the future no one knows. Mario did not remain healthy and he did not get 20sacks.

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 05:59 PM
He was guaranteed the 26m but made all salary based $. There were I believe some small annual incentive bonus that he may not have earned but my info is less than $2M each year earned or not.
DM you are correct.

But you cannot say that for certain. Even the guy you quoted to admitted that and you agreed.

Here is a source (one you've used for speculation before) that says he did not get the full $54 million.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

...I counted $31.4 million. So he earned $4.9 million in incentives (on top of the $26.5 million guaranteed) if this source is correct.

badboy
01-28-2012, 06:10 PM
Two things:

1. We don't have cap space for free agents, man..unless I'm losing my mind.

2. Bowe's going to take #2 WR money? He's going to want what Rice got from Seattle last year.1. Not going into the cap space agin as I and others haver posted on this repeatedly & the post you qouted identified gaining cap space with Mario signing a lower cap contract and also total 201 cap space if he goes elsewhere. Maybe you are losing your mind? chuckle.

2. Offer Bowe an Andre Johnson type deal with numbers adjusted to offer more upfront bonus as part of the guarantee PLUS the opportunity to play on a SB capable team? Yeah, I think he'd take it. Schaub spreads the ball around.

Also, he would be AJ's replacement & we'd lose little.

badboy
01-28-2012, 06:18 PM
very true, he will not be signed to a 3 year $10M contract. Especially not when his first year's salary would be $475K & a signing bonus less south of $1M

:kubepalm:Where did you get 3 year $10m? My post said at least $7m difference if Mario is re-signed. That alone is $21m in 3 and I would offer him at least a five year deal with even more money in years 2-5. Again an AJ type deal.

badboy
01-28-2012, 06:27 PM
Which is why most of us, who know what we're talking about, were thrilled to learn Butler was returning for 2011 & equally concerned when we found he was going on IR.

Butler performed extremely well in place of Brown to start the 2010 season..... but you don't replace starters with back-ups.

Get rid of Mario & an outside pass rusher becomes your top priority in the offseason. & if Mario does reach free agency, he's hands down the top outside pass rusher.

Forget getting a WR2 in FA or the draft, outside pass rusher is much more valuable & much more of a need.

Forget Dwayne Bowe or Reggie Wayne. If we don't sign Mario, we'll be looking to sign the second best outside pass rusher in FA & (or) targeting the best one in the draft.You can replace starters with backup who are younger, cheaper and give comparative productivity. Most NFL teams replace some starters with back ups every year. That is just football.

cbs1507
01-28-2012, 06:33 PM
You can replace starters with backup who are younger, cheaper and give comparative productivity. Most NFL teams replace some starters with back ups every year. That is just football.

Mario Williams is 26, andathletic freak, and led this team in sacks 4 of 5 seasons from 2006-2010. If we let him walk we are not getting a younger pass rusher with "comparative productivity" that is cheaper. Everyone will just have to pick it up across the board.

BTW Most NFL teams don't replace premier pass rushers with backups though. If you want cheaper, then you will most likely get what you pay for. I'm just saying.

I get we were productive down the stretch. But Mario is our top priority (at least until March 13th). If he signs elsewhere then we will try to replace him (but not before March 13th).

badboy
01-28-2012, 06:58 PM
Mario Williams is 26, andathletic freak, and led this team in sacks 4 of 5 seasons from 2006-2010. If we let him walk we are not getting a younger pass rusher with "comparative productivity" that is cheaper. Everyone will just have to pick it up across the board.

BTW Most NFL teams don't replace premier pass rushers with backups though. If you want cheaper, then you will most likely get what you pay for. I'm just saying.

I get we were productive down the stretch. But Mario is our top priority (at least until March 13th). If he signs elsewhere then we will try to replace him (but not before March 13th).And Barwin is 25, faster though not stronger and earns $565,000in 2012. He had 11.5 sacks & even if you project out Mario's 1 per game (which I have done historically)= 16 sacks.

The key is not just a stat for stat comparison but what would we have a chance to get if Mario goes elsewhere. I guess it would be closest to say would the team from 2011 be better with Mario or with what Mario's 2012 cap would allow us to bring in? Yes, we'd have to draft an Ingram in first or a Vinny Curry in second but if we had same WR Bowe? John McClain says Mario's salary was $18m in 2011. We could sign Bowe and prob two more FAs with that.

Just for grins why not post what you would do with $18 million in free agency if Mario said tomorrow he would not be back.

infantrycak
01-28-2012, 07:29 PM
You don't understand contract because that is entirely false. Guaranteed money is not necessarily paid up front. The ONLY guaranteed money paid upfront is a signing bonus.

No guaranteed money can also be in the form of a roster bonus set the day of signing or some short time period thereafter. On the other hand, roster bonuses are often misrepresented as guaranteed money. For example Peyton's $28 mil March 8th roster bonus was reported as guaranteed and it is not.

The guaranteed money not paid upfront is base salary and it is dispersed over the life of the contract.

You can write the contract to be guaranteed salaries in years 1-3 but nothing guaranteed in years 4-6.

So for example a contract can be reported as a six year deal with $15 mil guaranteed with:

$5 mil signing bonus.
$4 mil first year salary - guaranteed.
$6 mil second year salary - guaranteed.
remainder of contract - not guaranteed.

Seegara
01-28-2012, 08:03 PM
I'd favor trading Mario to the Colts for their 1st round pick.

srrono
01-28-2012, 08:10 PM
I'd favor trading Mario to the Colts for their 1st round pick.

never happen best I think could hope for is a couple 2nd round picks or a bottom half 1st round pick.

badboy
01-28-2012, 08:33 PM
I'd favor trading Mario to the Colts for their 1st round pick.Why in the world would Colts do that? Uh hopefully you were joshing or something? Now maybe their first pick in 2nd round & another later pick.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 09:02 PM
The sky didn't fall because MW got injured and was lost for the season. I would rather spend the $$$$ re-signing the other Texans FA's and drafting a guy like Cam Johnson or Andre Branch in the 2nd rd. (They both remind me of Reed)

There's no reason we can't do all that & sign Mario.

It won't be easy, but they (football teams) do it all the time.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 09:05 PM
1. We very well may just draft OLB for depth. But we will try to sign Mario first. FA starts March 13th the draft is in April. We have a chance to try to deal with Mario before FA starts and we will try to get a deal done before then.

We may draft an OLB with a 5th round or later pick.

1-4 should be spent on offense.

badboy
01-28-2012, 09:13 PM
There's no reason we can't do all that & sign Mario.

It won't be easy, but they (football teams) do it all the time.Exactly and what I have predicted. $10m cap 2012 apprx leaving $6-8m cap depending on your source to go after say Bowe with an AJ type deal. WHooee!

John McClain has repeated stated Texans were $20m over the cap last season. Why should they not be willing to do it again. Never understood how that works

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 09:15 PM
Where did you get 3 year $10m? My post said at least $7m difference if Mario is re-signed. That alone is $21m in 3 and I would offer him at least a five year deal with even more money in years 2-5. Again an AJ type deal.

3 years, $10M....... that's what we paid Jj & we've got some people acting like Jacoby had a big payday.... like we signed him to #2 money. He only made $600K in 2011.

badboy
01-28-2012, 09:19 PM
3 years, $10M....... that's what we paid Jj & we've got some people acting like Jacoby had a big payday.... like we signed him to #2 money. He only made $600K in 2011.Oh, I see. I think most are saying 3 m per year just as a reference. I thought he got like 1/2million upfront and so much guaranteed. I would not be much but it could be given to others.

ThaShark316
01-28-2012, 09:26 PM
We may draft an OLB with a 5th round or later pick.

1-4 should be spent on offense.

Nah, one of those need to be a NT.

Dutchrudder
01-28-2012, 09:28 PM
Exactly and what I have predicted. $10m cap 2012 apprx leaving $6-8m cap depending on your source to go after say Bowe with an AJ type deal. WHooee!

John McClain has repeated stated Texans were $20m over the cap last season. Why should they not be willing to do it again. Never understood how that works

When you go over the cap due to incentives and such, the amount that exceeds the cap that year gets deducted from the following year's cap number. Given the contracts, I'm not sure how the Texans would have been over by 20 mill last year, but I know the Cowboys did have 20 mill in dead cap space that they chose to push to 2012. So the Cowboys will have about 20 mill less to work with next year than everyone else.

thunderkyss
01-28-2012, 09:29 PM
Nah, one of those need to be a NT.

doubt it.

We don't need no stinking nose tackle.

:wadepalm:

ThaShark316
01-28-2012, 09:35 PM
doubt it.

We don't need no stinking nose tackle.

:wadepalm:

I should have rephrased that and said "one of them will probably be".

badboy
01-28-2012, 10:17 PM
When you go over the cap due to incentives and such, the amount that exceeds the cap that year gets deducted from the following year's cap number. Given the contracts, I'm not sure how the Texans would have been over by 20 mill last year, but I know the Cowboys did have 20 mill in dead cap space that they chose to push to 2012. So the Cowboys will have about 20 mill less to work with next year than everyone else.Yes, I understand that but McCalin is saying that Mario made $18m and Texans were over $20m. $20m is not incentives & if we have to subtract that from 2012 cap that could be bad. i wished John boy would give his sources. I tried to question him on this Thursday but his blog on Chron did not connect.

Dutchrudder
01-28-2012, 10:28 PM
Yes, I understand that but McCalin is saying that Mario made $18m and Texans were over $20m. $20m is not incentives & if we have to subtract that from 2012 cap that could be bad. i wished John boy would give his sources. I tried to question him on this Thursday but his blog on Chron did not connect.

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. The only way I could see someone coming to the conclusion that the Texans were 20 mill over the cap this year is either 1) they confused them with the Cowboys report or 2) they are adding in all of the signing bonuses paid to JJo and Watt (12.5 and 6.6 mill). Obviously the signing bonuses are paid in 2011, but prorated over the span of the deal.

Fwiw, on August 16th, Jason La Canfora had us at 866k under the cap:

http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/16/updated-cap-space-for-all-32-teams/

Obviously that was after all our free agent signings and rookies were signed and other deals were restructured. The only additions we made during the year were minimum deals and such. None of them should have pushed us more than 1 mill over the cap, if that.

Edit: August 29 JLC had us at 2.2 mill under the cap:
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/

mussop
01-28-2012, 11:32 PM
He would be solid coming off the bench. ZERO sacks in the last 5 games showed how teams learned to use his "high motor" against himself. 1) They led him upfield and the QB stepped up in the pocket. There, problem solve. He has a high motor but he is not physically imposing. With the Barwin/Reed combo you have to devise a bunch of stunts and blitzes to free him up. With Mario/Barwin not so much. 2)Mario and Smith worked well together (9.5 sacks in the 1st 5 games). Not so much with Reed and Smith (8 sacks in the last 11 games). Wade Phillips would love to get a chance to have Williams, Barwin and Reed on the field at the same time. You can't do that without Williams. ;)

I'm sure this is Plan B IF we don't sign Mario. Mario Williams is Plan A.

Another example of half ass truth. Those teams you mentioned did draft guys and they kept them (Tuck and Umenyiora for NY; Mayo and Wilfork for NE). You're acting like Mario Williams is coming from another team...we drafted him. We should keep a player we drafted and develop. Otherwise, we will just continue to draft and develop players for other teams.

1) This is Mario's specialty! Most of Marios sacks come from stunts or when the QB is flushed his way or when the play is extended. He seldom wins his one on one battles against good OLmen. He is not and never will be a speed rusher. I'm cool with Mario coming back as long as the LB experiment is toned down an he plays most of his snaps at the 5 where he belongs.



2) Go back and look a those first five games and checkout how pathetic those OL's were at the time.

infantrycak
01-29-2012, 08:48 AM
1) This is Mario's specialty! Most of Marios sacks come from stunts or when the QB is flushed his way or when the play is extended. He seldom wins his one on one battles against good OLmen. He is not and never will be a speed rusher. I'm cool with Mario coming back as long as the LB experiment is toned down an he plays most of his snaps at the 5 where he belongs.



2) Go back and look a those first five games and checkout how pathetic those OL's were at the time.

Put up a video where most of Mario's sacks come from stunts. In advance you can't because it is BS.

steelbtexan
01-29-2012, 11:37 AM
This thread is like the HWNSNBM thread.

The pro HWNSNBM people aren't going to change their minds. Just like the pro MW crowd.

I'm all for re-signing MW but not at any cost.

Since reasonable discussion flew out the window long ago, I'm out of this thread.

cbs1507
01-29-2012, 12:46 PM
1) This is Mario's specialty! Most of Marios sacks come from stunts or when the QB is flushed his way or when the play is extended. He seldom wins his one on one battles against good OLmen. He is not and never will be a speed rusher. I'm cool with Mario coming back as long as the LB experiment is toned down an he plays most of his snaps at the 5 where he belongs.



2) Go back and look a those first five games and checkout how pathetic those OL's were at the time.

Wow another half ass truth. :kubepalm:

Here are some highlights from previous seasons. How many stunts on these plays...
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80518b02/Week-15-Mario-Williams-highlights
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-pro-bowl/09000d5d80e774f0/2008-Best-of-Mario-Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHwQSraaPY (how many of our pass rushers are in the top 100 outside of Williams? ZERO.)

Here are Williams' sacks/pressures from 2011...

Indy...yeah they're on Dallas Clark (whoopty doo) NO STUNTS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40gXQLrfJy8&feature=player_embedded#!


Miami...No STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8225c1b1/Texans-defense-sack-8-yd-loss( Mario DOUBLE TEAMED gives everyone else for 1 on 1)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8225da5e/Texans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss (Mario beat his man but great job by A. Smith)

New Orleans...NO STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d82290cd7/Texans-defense-sack-7-yd-loss (Mario beat his man but great job by A. Smith)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8228ad58/Texans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss (3 and 8 and Brees was looking in his direction he did what you are supposed to do GET YOUR HANDS UP great play by Watt)

Pittsburgh...again NO STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822c33cd/Texans-defense-sack-4-yd-loss
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822c3774/Texans-defense-sack-6-yd-loss
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822c3651/Texans-defense-sack-7-yd-loss (he did not get credited with sack but he got to the QB)

Oakland...NO STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822f5dfb/Texans-defense-sack-1-yd-loss (I believe he got hurt on this play)


I'm sorry but you are making outlandish claims that you cannot even prove. You can belittle them all you want, but a sack is a sack. He is very valuable to this team. That is why we will try to do what we can to bring him back next year. Also I do not no where people get this idea that we cannot afford Williams. Nobody actually knows the cap situation.

Here is the latest on the 2011 salary cap...
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/ (props to dutchrudder)

Here's another that confirms the same...
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/29/updated-cap-space-as-of-august-29/

I would like some rep for this post please (I spread rep back). ;)

mussop
01-29-2012, 01:01 PM
Put up a video where most of Mario's sacks come from stunts. In advance you can't because it is BS.

How about you put up a video where most of Mario's sacks aren't coming from stunts or when the QB is flushed his way or when the play is extended. In advance you can't.

Like I said he seldom wins his one on one battles against good OLmen. He is not and never will be a speed rusher. This defense is better served with speed off the edges and penetrators up front. Thats exactly why we became so good after Mario went down.

My point is that he is a power rusher and he belongs on the inside where his combo of speed, size and athleticism is to much for interior OL men. The only way he is effective lining up on the outside is when Wade can find ways to line Mario up where he goes one on one with TE's and RB's. If not he is ineffective for to much of the game. He just doesn't have the pass rush moves or hand skills to beat quality OT's.

This is why he has the reputation of taking plays off or disappearing for stretches of games. Its not because he isn't trying, its because its not in his game. He wasn't put in the ideal position for him to succeed with his skill set. every since he got here coaches have been trying to turn him into a speed rusher.

Then Wade came along and fell into the same trap. I know you're going to say look at what he did at OLB in this system. To that I say I wasn't impressed. Only one of his sacks were made where he blew off the line and made a beautiful arm over move and got to the QB really quick. off course it was against Dallas Clark a receiving TE. His last sack against Oakland was just a great timed jump at the snap. now if he could do that more he would scary coming off the edge.

Look at what JJ Watt was able to do at the 5. Now imagine putting him at the OLB and do you see what a waste that would be? And before you say Watt isn't the athlete Mario is you need to check the numbers. Their pretty close.

cbs1507
01-29-2012, 02:11 PM
How about you put up a video where most of Mario's sacks aren't coming from stunts or when the QB is flushed his way or when the play is extended. In advance you can't.

Like I said he seldom wins his one on one battles against good OLmen. He is not and never will be a speed rusher. This defense is better served with speed off the edges and penetrators up front. Thats exactly why we became so good after Mario went down.

My point is that he is a power rusher and he belongs on the inside where his combo of speed, size and athleticism is to much for interior OL men. The only way he is effective lining up on the outside is when Wade can find ways to line Mario up where he goes one on one with TE's and RB's. If not he is ineffective for to much of the game. He just doesn't have the pass rush moves or hand skills to beat quality OT's.

This is why he has the reputation of taking plays off or disappearing for stretches of games. Its not because he isn't trying, its because its not in his game. He wasn't put in the ideal position for him to succeed with his skill set. every since he got here coaches have been trying to turn him into a speed rusher.

Then Wade came along and fell into the same trap. I know you're going to say look at what he did at OLB in this system. To that I say I wasn't impressed. Only one of his sacks were made where he blew off the line and made a beautiful arm over move and got to the QB really quick. off course it was against Dallas Clark a receiving TE. His last sack against Oakland was just a great timed jump at the snap. now if he could do that more he would scary coming off the edge.

Look at what JJ Watt was able to do at the 5. Now imagine putting him at the OLB and do you see what a waste that would be? And before you say Watt isn't the athlete Mario is you need to check the numbers. Their pretty close.

You should quit while you're behind. :lol:(see post above yours (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1891849&postcount=1130)).

76Texan
01-29-2012, 03:00 PM
1. We ran a 4-3 defense from 2006 until Wade Phillips was hired. I do not know where you got this from.

2. That may be true, but he did not "outperform" Williams in his 11 games down the stretch. Williams 5 sacks in 5 games. Reed 6 sacks in 11 games, and he failed to record a sack in the last 5 games.

We played out of a 3-4 front several times..... way too many times if you ask me... under Frank Bush. I personally gained the opinion that Okoye would fare much better as a 3-4 end because of his performance during that time.

If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention, because it happened a lot.

4-3 was our base defense. If we ran a few snaps of 3-4, I guess I didn't notice. I guess that's not too surprising because teams implement wrinkles of other schemes all the time. Some downhill running teams, implement zone blocking wrinkles every now and again (Baltimore does it). I even seen some other 4-3 teams mix in some 3-4 looks and vice versa. It's not like it was our main defense. It was just that, a wrinkle. Mario Williams was still a 4-3 DE at the end of the day.
We have discussed this during the off-season and I had gone back to show that the Texans played with 3 down linemen (and even two) plenty enough such that I predicted that the change to the 3-4 won't take long (as most people thought.)

There was at least one game in which we played about as much out of the 3-4 as I counted the Cowboys played in one of their game (early 2010 when Wade was their HC.)

My point is that Mario can play 34 OLB as well as 43 DE.
I'm sure he can also play well as a 34 DE also.

To sum it up, I'd like to use the words of Jon Gruden; in one of the pre-season games, he told Jaws (who was concerned about Mario moving to OLB):
"If you worry about Mario; I worry about you."

thunderkyss
01-29-2012, 03:45 PM
We have discussed this during the off-season and I had gone back to show that the Texans played with 3 down linemen (and even two) plenty enough such that I predicted that the change to the 3-4 won't take long (as most people thought.)

My point is that Mario can play 34 OLB as well as 43 DE.
I'm sure he can also play well as a 34 DE also.



True.

I even recall his rookie season, when we moved him around alot. RDE, LDE, DT, rush OLB... most people didn't like the extra movement, & thought it was too much for the rookie. However, most asked to see more of Mario standing up, because he did so well.

& anyone claiming Mario is a liability when dropping in coverage has not been paying attention. From what I've seen, he understands zone concepts better than any of our LBs.... 1-on-1, I haven't seen enough to form an opinion, but zone drops.... I'm not worried about Mario one bit.

playa465
01-29-2012, 03:51 PM
To sum it up, I'd like to use the words of Jon Gruden; in one of the pre-season games, he told Jaws (who was concerned about Mario moving to OLB): "If you worry about Mario; I worry about you."

Classic!!

dalemurphy
01-29-2012, 05:09 PM
We have discussed this during the off-season and I had gone back to show that the Texans played with 3 down linemen (and even two) plenty enough such that I predicted that the change to the 3-4 won't take long (as most people thought.)

There was at least one game in which we played about as much out of the 3-4 as I counted the Cowboys played in one of their game (early 2010 when Wade was their HC.)

My point is that Mario can play 34 OLB as well as 43 DE.
I'm sure he can also play well as a 34 DE also.

To sum it up, I'd like to use the words of Jon Gruden; in one of the pre-season games, he told Jaws (who was concerned about Mario moving to OLB):
"If you worry about Mario; I worry about you."


Of course Mario can play any of those positions. Who cares? Nobody will deny Mario has a lot of physical ability.

The question is: "will he play any of them with consistent energy, intensity, effort... and, will he be healthy enough to justify all the money he will want?" Beyond that, even if the answer is "yes", does the financial risk make sense in the light of the fact that the defense was still dominant without him?

thunderkyss
01-29-2012, 05:24 PM
The question is: "will he play any of them with consistent energy, intensity, effort... and, will he be healthy enough to justify all the money he will want?"

To sum it up...

"If you worry about Mario; I worry about you."

:cow:

dalemurphy
01-29-2012, 06:33 PM
Jon Gruden is a glorified entertainer. From his perch in the press box, he is free to fawn all over talented players... It's part of his job, first of all, and he no longer has the responsibility of convincing that talent to perform, nor with dealing with the confines of a salary cap.

The fact that some of you are reduced to quoting a Jon Gruden quip doesn't exactly settle any arguments, despite any dancing animals, exclamation points, or cheers of "you got burnt!"

mussop
01-29-2012, 09:02 PM
You should quit while you're behind. :lol:(see post above yours (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1891849&postcount=1130)).


My contention was, is and always will be that Mario is a power rusher and should be playing inside. As I said in my previous post "The only way he is effective lining up on the outside is when Wade can find ways to line Mario up where he goes one on one with TE's and RB's. If not he is ineffective for to much of the game. He just doesn't have the pass rush moves or hand skills to beat quality OT's.".

I knew if I worded it right someone would do the dirty work for me and post a bunch of videos of Mario. Thank you gofer!

Wow another half ass truth.

Here are some highlights from previous seasons. How many stunts on these plays...
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80518b02/Week-15-Mario-Williams-highlights
In this video on his first sack he only has to beat a RB to get to the QB and does. Point me! On the second sack he bull rushes his way into the QB but with plenty of help up the middle. The QB would of been sacked anyway. However bull rush = power. Point me. On the third sack he beats a TE with a power move but only because the QB try's to step up and away from backside pressure. Point me! On the fourth sack, bullrush while the entire pocket collapses around the QB. Point me.

Its funny you use the highlight video of that game because its really the only game that you could say he ever really dominated. But since you have set the bar for using the term dominant "Dominant against who? We were good down the stretch for sure. But how many of the teams we dominated had good offense or QBs? "

I guess we can't consider that a dominant performance since against a weak OL.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-pro-bowl/09000d5d80e774f0/2008-Best-of-Mario-Williams

You can't be serious? the only impression anyone could away with from watching that video is that we have some fine ars cheerleaders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHwQSraaPY (how many of our pass rushers are in the top 100 outside of Williams? ZERO.)

Stupid question considering both of our starting OLB's are so young. And the video? Most of it was such bad camera angles or not whole plays. If anything proved my point. Did you see (@148) where he threw of #71 of the Titans and swallowed up the RB? That is the point I'm trying to make. Point me.

Here are Williams' sacks/pressures from 2011...[/QUOTE]

Actually I have discussed the 2011 sacks at length in this thread. The first 4 teams we played had horrible lines at the time. And again like you said, the competition was about as weak as you get. But hey for fun lets take a look at your videos.

Indy...yeah they're on Dallas Clark (whoopty doo) NO STUNTS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40gXQLrfJy8&feature=player_embedded#!

Again my point. Lined up against a receiving TE. And I believe I even mentioned this particular game.


Miami...No STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8225c1b1/Texans-defense-sack-8-yd-loss( Mario DOUBLE TEAMED gives everyone else for 1 on 1)

Actually Mario does stunt on this play and he isn't even the one who gets the sack. In fact he is the farthest away from the QB of all the guys rushing. Not sure why put this video here other than to try and make it look like you had a point by adding as many videos as you could. FAIL! :lol:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8225da5e/Texans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss (Mario beat his man but great job by A. Smith)

Again Mario doesn't even get the sack here. :lol: He does exactly what I said, this is his specialty.

New Orleans...NO STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d82290cd7/Texans-defense-sack-7-yd-loss (Mario beat his man but great job by A. Smith)
Again Mario doesn't get the sack! And yes he does beat his man by doing an inside loop. Do you even know what a stunt is? :lol:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d8228ad58/Texans-defense-sack-9-yd-loss (3 and 8 and Brees was looking in his direction he did what you are supposed to do GET YOUR HANDS UP great play by Watt)

WTF? This has nothing to do with the conversation.

Pittsburgh...again NO STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822c33cd/Texans-defense-sack-4-yd-loss

OMG! Thank you for showing another video that shows Mario getting rode for a big ass loop. Like I said earlier, his specialty. On this play yes he gets the sack but only because the QB rolls right into his path. :wadepalm:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822c3774/Texans-defense-sack-6-yd-loss

Who is this he is beating? If he could only do this regularly against good OT's you might have an argument.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822c3651/Texans-defense-sack-7-yd-loss (he did not get credited with sack but he got to the QB)



Oakland...NO STUNTS
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d822f5dfb/Texans-defense-sack-1-yd-loss (I believe he got hurt on this play)


I'm sorry but you are making outlandish claims that you cannot even prove. You can belittle them all you want, but a sack is a sack. He is very valuable to this team. That is why we will try to do what we can to bring him back next year. Also I do not no where people get this idea that we cannot afford Williams. Nobody actually knows the cap situation.

Here is the latest on the 2011 salary cap...
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/ (props to dutchrudder)

Here's another that confirms the same...
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/29/updated-cap-space-as-of-august-29/

I would like some rep for this post please (I spread rep back). ;)

WOW, whoring for reps? That is sad my friend. But not as sad as your failed attempt at posting a bunch of meaningless videos to try and prove your point.

badboy
01-29-2012, 09:15 PM
For me it is the Texans will be better next season with or without Mario and that is what I care about the rest is just personal opinion on what each of us want.

DocBar
01-30-2012, 03:42 PM
For me it is the Texans will be better next season with or without Mario and that is what I care about the rest is just personal opinion on what each of us want.That's not entirely accurate. The Texans could be significantly worse off if they sign MW and are forced to let another FA or two walk, such as Myers or Foster(not gonna happen). They could also be worse off if they let MW walk and the injury bug bites again and we're short on depth. There's really no win-win I can see from this situation. This is why I was wishing the Texans would've traded him during FA or TC.

cbs1507
01-30-2012, 09:42 PM
My contention was, is and always will be that Mario is a power rusher and should be playing inside. As I said in my previous post "The only way he is effective lining up on the outside is when Wade can find ways to line Mario up where he goes one on one with TE's and RB's. If not he is ineffective for to much of the game. He just doesn't have the pass rush moves or hand skills to beat quality OT's.".

I knew if I worded it right someone would do the dirty work for me and post a bunch of videos of Mario. Thank you gofer!


In this video on his first sack he only has to beat a RB to get to the QB and does. Point me! On the second sack he bull rushes his way into the QB but with plenty of help up the middle. The QB would of been sacked anyway. However bull rush = power. Point me. On the third sack he beats a TE with a power move but only because the QB try's to step up and away from backside pressure. Point me! On the fourth sack, bullrush while the entire pocket collapses around the QB. Point me.

Its funny you use the highlight video of that game because its really the only game that you could say he ever really dominated. But since you have set the bar for using the term dominant ""

I guess we can't consider that a dominant performance since against a weak OL.



You can't be serious? the only impression anyone could away with from watching that video is that we have some fine ars cheerleaders.



Stupid question considering both of our starting OLB's are so young. And the video? Most of it was such bad camera angles or not whole plays. If anything proved my point. Did you see (@148) where he threw of #71 of the Titans and swallowed up the RB? That is the point I'm trying to make. Point me.

Here are Williams' sacks/pressures from 2011...

Actually I have discussed the 2011 sacks at length in this thread. The first 4 teams we played had horrible lines at the time. And again like you said, the competition was about as weak as you get. But hey for fun lets take a look at your videos.



Again my point. Lined up against a receiving TE. And I believe I even mentioned this particular game.




Actually Mario does stunt on this play and he isn't even the one who gets the sack. In fact he is the farthest away from the QB of all the guys rushing. Not sure why put this video here other than to try and make it look like you had a point by adding as many videos as you could. FAIL! :lol:



Again Mario doesn't even get the sack here. :lol: He does exactly what I said, this is his specialty.


Again Mario doesn't get the sack! And yes he does beat his man by doing an inside loop. Do you even know what a stunt is? :lol:



WTF? This has nothing to do with the conversation.



OMG! Thank you for showing another video that shows Mario getting rode for a big ass loop. Like I said earlier, his specialty. On this play yes he gets the sack but only because the QB rolls right into his path. :wadepalm:



Who is this he is beating? If he could only do this regularly against good OT's you might have an argument.







WOW, whoring for reps? That is sad my friend. But not as sad as your failed attempt at posting a bunch of meaningless videos to try and prove your point.

You tried, but your point is irrelevant. I like how you tried to single out plays and IGNORED that fact that I credited the other people that got sacks. I was just pointing out that Mario still beat his man on those plays. And on the Miami video I was pointing out that he got double teamed which freed up everyone else for 1 on 1. If you can't see the value of Mario Williams on those plays I really can't help you out. What is your gripe about Mario Williams bullrushing? He's getting to the QB and he's finishing the play. Brooks Reed could take some notes. He avoids contact and tries to run around the o linemen and just takes himself out of the play. Of course I don't blame since he's a smaller guy. He is not physically imposing. I would be ashamed if I saw Williams trying to run around offensive linemen every play (it would be very ineffective as well). I never seen a coach complain about a guy bullrushing an offensive tackle especially when he is bringing the QB down. So you have no point. Just stop it.

BTW on the Pittsburgh highlight you tried to claim that the QB rolled into Williams. PLEASE. Big Ben tried to run away and got caught. Williams is a combination of size, speed and explosiveness, strength. Just because he can "bullrush" an OT/o lineman does not mean he cannot do other things.

drs23
01-30-2012, 10:23 PM
Mario Williams has been a 4-3 DE his entire career. Wade Phillips implemented the 3-4 scheme and envisioned Williams converting to a OLB in the 3-4 scheme. Why would you sign a player who played 4-3 DE his entire career to a long term contract when you have NEVER seen him play the 3-4 scheme? That should be self-explanatory.

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party.

Won't cross swords with you cbs as, you've proven as a masterDbater. But 5 sacks in 5 games? Yeah, pretty thinking I've watched him play the 3-4 "scheme".

Carry on. :tiphat:

gafftop
02-01-2012, 12:24 PM
Anybody hear Shannon Sharpe yesterday or Jay Glazer today on 610, both said Mario good player but for the money he will command they don't think the Texans will sign him.

It all comes down to the cap. This is business on both sides and Mario I think is going to hit FA and get a crazy offer and the Texans will not be able to match.

Somebody tell me why Mario will not test the FA market?

Does anybody think the Texans tried to work something out before the season started and Mario said no?

I don't think the Texans hold any of the cards in this game.

What do you think the best offer Mario will receive when he hits FA?

gafftop
02-01-2012, 01:11 PM
That's not entirely accurate. The Texans could be significantly worse off if they sign MW and are forced to let another FA or two walk, such as Myers or Foster(not gonna happen). They could also be worse off if they let MW walk and the injury bug bites again and we're short on depth. There's really no win-win I can see from this situation. This is why I was wishing the Texans would've traded him during FA or TC.

Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion.

The 2nd quote posted 4/19/11

Here we are 9 months later and I agree with Doc and it was my point 9 months ago. We lose now no matter what.

I see no way Mario stays and that will be more Mario's doing than the Texans.

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 01:18 PM
Anybody hear Shannon Sharpe yesterday or Jay Glazer today on 610, both said Mario good player but for the money he will command they don't think the Texans will sign him.

It all comes down to the cap. This is business on both sides and Mario I think is going to hit FA and get a crazy offer and the Texans will not be able to match.

Somebody tell me why Mario will not test the FA market?

Does anybody think the Texans tried to work something out before the season started and Mario said no?

I don't think the Texans hold any of the cards in this game.

What do you think the best offer Mario will receive when he hits FA?

I think he will be offered a Julius Peppers type deal to play DE for a 4-3 team. 6 years 90 million or 7 years 100 million-ish. Average somewhere around 13-15 mill a year. If the Texans get him for less than that, then Mario is doing them a favor.

Goldensilence
02-01-2012, 01:37 PM
I think he will be offered a Julius Peppers type deal to play DE for a 4-3 team. 6 years 90 million or 7 years 100 million-ish. Average somewhere around 13-15 mill a year. If the Texans get him for less than that, then Mario is doing them a favor.

This is the point I think people who are "in favor" of letting Mario walk are saying.

I know we could sign him to along term deal which would lessen the cap hit, but I've said all along what does your realistic long term contract look like. I've seen a few hopeful wishing to get him in the 5-6 range. Realistically I think the best we can hope for is 8-9, but I think he can easily command double digits. I don't think he's going to quite get Peppers kind of numbs because he hasn't been the type of game changer he was in Carolina, but I'd be surprised if it totaled less than 5 years and 50 million.

honestly, I find it hard to believe Mario won't test what kind of contract he can garner. I think it's hopeful wishing that we'd sign him before he becomes a FA. If the texans do and get him in the 7-8 million range it's a steal.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 03:01 PM
Anybody hear Shannon Sharpe yesterday or Jay Glazer today on 610, both said Mario good player but for the money he will command they don't think the Texans will sign him.

It all comes down to the cap. This is business on both sides and Mario I think is going to hit FA and get a crazy offer and the Texans will not be able to match.

Somebody tell me why Mario will not test the FA market?

Does anybody think the Texans tried to work something out before the season started and Mario said no?

I don't think the Texans hold any of the cards in this game.

What do you think the best offer Mario will receive when he hits FA?

I think the Texans will work out a lucrative deal that will be comparable to what he would get if he were to hit FA. We'll have him signed before FA starts.

The cap is a funny thing, it's a bunch of funny money that you can manipulate to keep the players you want.

I think the Texans are becoming that team that FA are interested in. Most likely it will take another season or two like 2011 & we'll be "the" destination.

Mario is here, he already knows what other FAs will find out. Why would he go anywhere else?

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 03:37 PM
This is the point I think people who are "in favor" of letting Mario walk are saying.

I know we could sign him to along term deal which would lessen the cap hit, but I've said all along what does your realistic long term contract look like. I've seen a few hopeful wishing to get him in the 5-6 range. Realistically I think the best we can hope for is 8-9, but I think he can easily command double digits. I don't think he's going to quite get Peppers kind of numbs because he hasn't been the type of game changer he was in Carolina, but I'd be surprised if it totaled less than 5 years and 50 million.

honestly, I find it hard to believe Mario won't test what kind of contract he can garner. I think it's hopeful wishing that we'd sign him before he becomes a FA. If the texans do and get him in the 7-8 million range it's a steal.

I don't see how Mario could possibly get to the point where he would accept a deal that didn't average more than 10 million a year. If Charles freaking Johnson can get crazy money, I know Mario can. I'd love to see a quote of someone projecting the 5-6 million range though. lol... We will be lucky to get Foster for that much.

Given comparable deals around the league, which I have detailed in threads long ago, there is just no way Mario signs for less than 10 million average salary. Unless of course he changed his agent to Andre's cousin. I would gladly place a bet on that and take the over. Mario's no dummy, he's knows what he's worth.

DocBar
02-01-2012, 03:42 PM
We could sign MW to a 10 yr $100 mil contract with, say $50mil gauranteed and opt out/buy out clauses after X number of yrs. That's about the best I could realistically think of but I think MW would want more money gauranteed.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 04:36 PM
I don't see how Mario could possibly get to the point where he would accept a deal that didn't average more than 10 million a year. If Charles freaking Johnson can get crazy money, I know Mario can. I'd love to see a quote of someone projecting the 5-6 million range though. lol... We will be lucky to get Foster for that much.

Given comparable deals around the league, which I have detailed in threads long ago, there is just no way Mario signs for less than 10 million average salary. Unless of course he changed his agent to Andre's cousin. I would gladly place a bet on that and take the over. Mario's no dummy, he's knows what he's worth.

He may very well sign a deal where he avgs $14M (that's what I'm expecting) but his cap number can be as low as $5M or $6M, I doubt it they'll be that drastic, but they could.

We could give him a $40M signing bonus & a $2M salary for the first 2 years. Sign him to a 7 year deal with a total value of $98M that's $14M a year. ($40M/7= $5.7M + $2M salary = $7.7M cap for the first 2 years)

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 04:54 PM
He may very well sign a deal where he avgs $14M (that's what I'm expecting) but his cap number can be as low as $5M or $6M, I doubt it they'll be that drastic, but they could.

We could give him a $40M signing bonus & a $2M salary for the first 2 years. Sign him to a 7 year deal with a total value of $98M that's $14M a year. ($40M/7= $5.7M + $2M salary = $7.7M cap for the first 2 years)

That would be a terrible deal for the Texans. A guaranteed 5.7 mill cap hit per year over 7 years that can't be restructured would be worthless to the team. Signing bonuses are inflexible, and if the player is cut or traded, the remainder of the bonus is accelerated to the current year. There's no reason to give him a crazy signing bonus like that because it ties the GM's hands. Cutting him after year 4 would basically cost the team 17.1 million in capspace that year. That's too much money to have tied up in that sort of deal. Rick could easily draft a contract that does the exact same thing without using an absurdly large signing bonus to make the numbers.

There's no reason for the Texans to push his money out like that anyways. If Mario really cost 19 million against the cap this year, then there's plenty to sign him to a normal deal, and enough leftover to re-sign Foster, Myers, Brisiel and Dreessen. Sign him for an average of 12 a year and they still have at least 15 million to spend on those other guys (I think it's about 30-35 in total). Plus they can cut JJ and Lienart to have another 5-6 mill to spend. Also, the cap may go up to 125 this year, which means another 5 mill to spend. Plenty to work with if that's the case.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 05:00 PM
Here's a link (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/07/26/2483305/report-panthers-lock-down-charles.html)describing Charles Johnson's contract from 2011.
The deal could be worth up to $72 million, with $32 million guaranteed - including a $30 million signing bonus, according to a source close to Johnson.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/07/26/2483305/report-panthers-lock-down-charles.html#storylink=cpy

6 years, $72M..... $12M yearly average.

Here (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/cap-hit/)we can see his reported cap hit.
Charles Johnson DE 4,000,000 5,000,000 - 9,000,000

The cap hit & avg salary are two totally different numbers. The amount of money they sign Mario should be none of our concern except for how it works out to his cap number in 2012.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 05:04 PM
That would be a terrible deal for the Texans. A guaranteed 5.7 mill cap hit per year over 7 years that can't be restructured would be worthless to the team. Signing bonuses are inflexible, and if the player is cut or traded, the remainder of the bonus is accelerated to the current year. There's no reason to give him a crazy signing bonus like that because it ties the GM's hands. Cutting him after year 4 would basically cost the team 17.1 million in capspace that year. That's too much money to have tied up in that sort of deal. Rick could easily draft a contract that does the exact same thing without using an absurdly large signing bonus to make the numbers.

There's no reason for the Texans to push his money out like that anyways. If Mario really cost 19 million against the cap this year, then there's plenty to sign him to a normal deal, and enough leftover to re-sign Foster, Myers, Brisiel and Dreessen. Sign him for an average of 12 a year and they still have at least 15 million to spend on those other guys (I think it's about 30-35 in total). Plus they can cut JJ and Lienart to have another 5-6 mill to spend. Also, the cap may go up to 125 this year, which means another 5 mill to spend. Plenty to work with if that's the case.


Here's a question to ask yourself:

If Mario counted $19 million against the cap and the Texans struggled to find room to get Joseph and Manning signed, plus they were handcuffed from signing others (Vonta Leach, for instance)... Why didn't the Texans re-sign Mario to a long term deal last year and give themselves $10 million or more in cap room for the 2011 season? When you reach that answer, here's another question? If the Texans were unconvinced to sign Mario last year, do you think they are more likely to do it after experiencing so much success without him playing this season and after another I.R. stint?

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 05:11 PM
Here's a link (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/07/26/2483305/report-panthers-lock-down-charles.html)describing Charles Johnson's contract from 2011.


6 years, $72M..... $12M yearly average.

Here (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/cap-hit/)we can see his reported cap hit.


The cap hit & avg salary are two totally different numbers. The amount of money they sign Mario should be none of our concern except for how it works out to his cap number in 2012.

Do you really expect Mario to be worth 12-14 mill a year at the age of 32-33? I don't, which is why you want to have a cheaper out. For all we know he could tear his knee up in year 2 and end his career. Then you have a whopping 25+ mill against the cap when you release him. It's just safer to keep signing bonuses to a minimum and pay the guy more guaranteed money if they are willing to do it. Yearly roster bonuses are fine too because they only get paid if they player is still on the books. My point is that a signing bonus is basically guaranteed money that has to be paid out on average over the lifetime of the deal, whereas guaranteed money can come in all forms of the contract payments and is more flexible if you get into cap hell.

FYI, Peppers got a 6.5 mill signing bonus. Given that Mario got about 19 million last year, I would imagine he's not hurting for money right now.

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 05:14 PM
Here's a question to ask yourself:

If Mario counted $19 million against the cap and the Texans struggled to find room to get Joseph and Manning signed, plus they were handcuffed from signing others (Vonta Leach, for instance)... Why didn't the Texans re-sign Mario to a long term deal last year and give themselves $10 million or more in cap room for the 2011 season? When you reach that answer, here's another question? If the Texans were unconvinced to sign Mario last year, do you think they are more likely to do it after experiencing so much success without him playing this season and after another I.R. stint?

I don't think they were sold on his conversion to OLB, but I think if we were still running a 4-3 he would have been extended. It's not so much that they don't expect production from him, but that they wanted to see him prove he could make the transition. I think he did that in the limited time we saw him. My concern is the financial side of it, but given McNair's recent comments, I'm comfortable in saying that Mario's cap-hit last year was 19 million. Given that number, there's plenty to work with this offseason and re-signing him shouldn't be an issue.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Here's a link (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/07/26/2483305/report-panthers-lock-down-charles.html)describing Charles Johnson's contract from 2011.


6 years, $72M..... $12M yearly average.

Here (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/cap-hit/)we can see his reported cap hit.


The cap hit & avg salary are two totally different numbers. The amount of money they sign Mario should be none of our concern except for how it works out to his cap number in 2012.

Charles Johnson's cap hit is $5 million each year before adding salary and bonuses to the equation. That $30 million signing bonus gets spread evenly throughout the six years. Also, as Dutchrudder mentioned, if the Panthers decided to cut Johnson after three years, the back end of that signing bonus would hit all at once. So, Johnson, despite no longer being on the team in the 4th season, would count $15 million against the cap.

This is why the signing bonuses are so important. Not only is it cash in hand, but the bonuses protect the player from getting cut. Only once the yearly salary exceeds the remainder of the prorated signing bonus can a team get cap relief by cutting the player.

Example: Let's say Johnson's salary for his 5th year is $5,000,000 and salary for his 6th year is $7,000,000.

Johnson's cap charge in year 5 if he's on the team = $10 mil ($5 mil signing bonus + $5 mil salary. If he's not on the team, the charge would also be $10 million for the 2 remaining years of prorated bonus... Therefore, the Panthers would be unlikely to cut him.

In year 6, cutting him would cost $5 million against the cap. But if they didn't cut him, he would count $12 mil against the cap ($5 mil signing bonus, $7 salary)...

Essentially, Johnson and his agent would look at this contract and realize it is probably only a 5 year deal, but also know there is no way the team would cut him before he completed 4 years, thereby essentially guaranteeing him the $30 mil in bonuses and also the 1st four years worth of salaries.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 05:20 PM
I don't think they were sold on his conversion to OLB, but I think if we were still running a 4-3 he would have been extended. It's not so much that they don't expect production from him, but that they wanted to see him prove he could make the transition. I think he did that in the limited time we saw him. My concern is the financial side of it, but given McNair's recent comments, I'm comfortable in saying that Mario's cap-hit last year was 19 million. Given that number, there's plenty to work with this offseason and re-signing him shouldn't be an issue.

I'm thinking since his rookie contract had no bonus & back-loaded, he & his agent insisted on not restructuring. He felt he already earned that money.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 05:23 PM
Charles Johnson's cap hit is $5 million each year before adding salary and bonuses to the equation. That $30 million signing bonus gets spread evenly throughout the six years. Also, as Dutchrudder mentioned, if the Panthers decided to cut Johnson after three years, the back end of that signing bonus would hit all at once. So, Johnson, despite no longer being on the team in the 4th season, would count $15 million against the cap.

This is why the signing bonuses are so important. Not only is it cash in hand, but the bonuses protect the player from getting cut. Only once the yearly salary exceeds the remainder of the prorated signing bonus can a team get cap relief by cutting the player.



I understand that.. It's just that I'm convinced Mario will be worth it. If he is not, we'll restructure at that time making him trade friendly.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't think they were sold on his conversion to OLB, but I think if we were still running a 4-3 he would have been extended. It's not so much that they don't expect production from him, but that they wanted to see him prove he could make the transition. I think he did that in the limited time we saw him. My concern is the financial side of it, but given McNair's recent comments, I'm comfortable in saying that Mario's cap-hit last year was 19 million. Given that number, there's plenty to work with this offseason and re-signing him shouldn't be an issue.

Man, if that number really was $19 million... WOW! You're right, with that number the Texans would have more room that the originally reported $13.8 million, and the Texans may be more inclined to re-sign him. Still, it is awfully peculiar that they wouldn't have restructured that deal if he was in their plans, especially at that absurd number. I like your point about wanting to see if he could successfully convert. However, did they really have that much doubt about his ability to play 3-4 OLB or DE? I'm not convinced that 2011 was a referendum on his ability to play OLB. But, it's as good a theory as any.

gafftop
02-01-2012, 08:33 PM
The real Title for this thread should NOW be "What is Mario going to do"
The Texans at this point have no control over the situation. They lost all say as soon as he was injured. The only scenario I see in the Texans keeping Mario is if after testing FA he finds nobody is willing to pay him big money and the Texans sign him at a reasonable rate. I really don't see that happening.

The Texans will survive without Mario. I just don't like the idea of letting him go and getting nothing in return. ( I know we get cap space and compensation pick but no additional compensation)

Nawzer
02-01-2012, 08:36 PM
The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that the Texans won't re-sign Mario Williams. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I would like to have him back, but in all honesty I think he's had an inconsistent career. He has good numbers and he looks good in pads, and he's a tough guy but his inability to stay healthy is worrisome and his sacks come in bunches. I don't know if he's worth the money and I think the Texans will be better served spending that money elsewhere.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 08:52 PM
The real Title for this thread should NOW be "What is Mario going to do"
The Texans at this point have no control over the situation. They lost all say as soon as he was injured. The only scenario I see in the Texans keeping Mario is if after testing FA he finds nobody is willing to pay him big money and the Texans sign him at a reasonable rate. I really don't see that happening.

No, the ball is clearly in the Texans court. They need to come to Mario with a reasonable offer. If their offer is close enough or over what Mario & his agent "thinks" they'll get in FA, then Mario has no reason to look elsewhere.

If we get to FA without signing Mario, it's over. If Rick Smith wants to keep Mario, he doesn't low-ball him. He comes with his best offer. If that's not good enough, that's not good enough.

& I for one would be fine with that.

If Mario comes back & say he was insulted with the offer, like Vonta Leech says, then I'm mad at Rick Smith. If he says we just didn't meet eye to eye, then Rick Smith did his job. I don't think we should overpay for Mario, but we should offer market value.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 10:23 PM
If Mario comes back & say he was insulted with the offer, like Vonta Leech says, then I'm mad at Rick Smith. If he says we just didn't meet eye to eye, then Rick Smith did his job. I don't think we should overpay for Mario, but we should offer market value.

What if Rick Smith believes the market is wrong?
What if he believes he can create a stronger team allocating those resources differently?
Don't you think letting Vonta go made sense? Vonta was great. But, the Texans running game was excellent without him and the passing game was stronger without him. And, the Texans saved money by letting him go.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 10:41 PM
What if Rick Smith believes the market is wrong?

After the money they threw at Dunta...... I doubt he'll be far from market value.


If Rick Smith thinks this team is better without Mario, I'll just have to wait & see. I won't accept a, "we couldn't afford him" answer.

Goldensilence
02-01-2012, 10:48 PM
Here's a question to ask yourself:

If Mario counted $19 million against the cap and the Texans struggled to find room to get Joseph and Manning signed, plus they were handcuffed from signing others (Vonta Leach, for instance)... Why didn't the Texans re-sign Mario to a long term deal last year and give themselves $10 million or more in cap room for the 2011 season? When you reach that answer, here's another question? If the Texans were unconvinced to sign Mario last year, do you think they are more likely to do it after experiencing so much success without him playing this season and after another I.R. stint?

Bingo.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 10:54 PM
Here's a question to ask yourself:

If Mario counted $19 million against the cap and the Texans struggled to find room to get Joseph and Manning signed, plus they were handcuffed from signing others (Vonta Leach, for instance)... Why didn't the Texans re-sign Mario to a long term deal last year and give themselves $10 million or more in cap room for the 2011 season? When you reach that answer, here's another question? If the Texans were unconvinced to sign Mario last year, do you think they are more likely to do it after experiencing so much success without him playing this season and after another I.R. stint?


Bingo.

Uh...... we lost Vonta Leach. That's all, couldn't have been too strapped.

cbs1507
02-01-2012, 10:59 PM
Here's a question to ask yourself:

If Mario counted $19 million against the cap and the Texans struggled to find room to get Joseph and Manning signed, plus they were handcuffed from signing others (Vonta Leach, for instance)... Why didn't the Texans re-sign Mario to a long term deal last year and give themselves $10 million or more in cap room for the 2011 season? When you reach that answer, here's another question? If the Texans were unconvinced to sign Mario last year, do you think they are more likely to do it after experiencing so much success without him playing this season and after another I.R. stint?

For one, we change to a base 3-4 from a base 4-3 defense. But one thing people have yet to mention...LOCKOUT. Teams could not contact players nor could they enter team facilities. We didn't even have a collective bargaining agreement in the NFL. Oh yeah and 2010 was an uncapped year (no salary cap limit), so after the LOCKOUT we changed it to a hard cap ($120.375 million). That might explain why we could not get a deal done in the offseason. It's kind of hard to negotiate a deal when you cannot contact a player and you are uncertain of the salary cap situation.

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 06:05 AM
For one, we change to a base 3-4 from a base 4-3 defense. But one thing people have yet to mention...LOCKOUT. Teams could not contact players nor could they enter team facilities. We didn't even have a collective bargaining agreement in the NFL. Oh yeah and 2010 was an uncapped year (no salary cap limit), so after the LOCKOUT we changed it to a hard cap ($120.375 million). That might explain why we could not get a deal done in the offseason. It's kind of hard to negotiate a deal when you cannot contact a player and you are uncertain of the salary cap situation.

You are forgetting what happened after the lockout was over. In order to sign Joseph and Manning, the team had to renegotiate some contracts with existing players. The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time. It doesn't prove anything. It does indicate that the Texans were less than committed to the guy for the long term. Considering he ended another season on the I.R. while the Texans defense was great without him, I'm not sure that beating Dallas Clark a couple times to sack Kerry Collins in week one and playing well against Pittsburgh in week 4 is enough to change their minds.

Mr teX
02-02-2012, 09:18 AM
You are forgetting what happened after the lockout was over. In order to sign Joseph and Manning, the team had to renegotiate some contracts with existing players. The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time. It doesn't prove anything. It does indicate that the Texans were less than committed to the guy for the long term. Considering he ended another season on the I.R. while the Texans defense was great without him, I'm not sure that beating Dallas Clark a couple times to sack Kerry Collins in week one and playing well against Pittsburgh in week 4 is enough to change their minds.

:kubepalm:

Like Mario had any reason to want to renegotiate in a year where he was due 18 million with a contract in which he didn't recieve a signing bonus. By your logic then i guess the Texans weren't committed to Foster, Meyers & Briesel either since they didn't work out anything long term with them in 2011...How about the Saints with their inability to resign Drew Brees going into the last year of his contract in 2011. Do you think they're committed to him? :rolleyes:

You're a fool if you think that renegotiating contracts & re-signing players like Ja-ho-by & Rashard Butler is on the same level & takes the same kind of time and effort as renegotiating & re-signing players of Mario & Foster's ilk.

The Lockout was absoulutely apart of the reason they left Mario's contract alone....Mainly b/c everything was accelerated & b/c you couldn't contact players during that time as cbs1507 said. We didn't have the kind of time needed to sit with Mario & renegotiate something. Our secondary was historically bad in 2010 & we had to land 1 of the top cb's in FA...all focus was obviously turned towards that. Mario on the other hand was already in the fold for 2011. Why in the hell would you waste precious time renegotiating a deal with a guy who's already locked up & in the fold for the 2011? Our ability to sign Namdi or Joseph obviously wasn't dependent on resigning Mario to a more team friendly deal so why even deal with it at that point when:

1) you don't know how he'll do as a projected olb in Wade's system
2) you've got major priorities elsewhere in the secondary.
3) it takes 2 to tango & the player may not even want to renegotiate.....in that regard the only thing you can do is cut him.......not smart to cut your best pass rusher.

I guess by your logic we should be trying to renegotiate with schaub right now since he's going into the last year of his contract next year.

cbs1507
02-02-2012, 11:18 AM
You are forgetting what happened after the lockout was over. In order to sign Joseph and Manning, the team had to renegotiate some contracts with existing players. The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time. It doesn't prove anything. It does indicate that the Texans were less than committed to the guy for the long term. Considering he ended another season on the I.R. while the Texans defense was great without him, I'm not sure that beating Dallas Clark a couple times to sack Kerry Collins in week one and playing well against Pittsburgh in week 4 is enough to change their minds.

We did sign Manning and Josph, but we also had the worst pass defense in NFL history. Also, I disagree that the Texans did not approach Mario at that time. First of all, they knew he probably would not sign an extension because he thought he could get more money by testing free agency. If there were any contract talks, it might have been somewhat similar to the Arian Foster situation (just did not see eye to eye on the numbers). You are still neglecting the fact that we barely had a month to prepare for the season due to the LOCKOUT. It was more feasible to sign FAs like Joseph and Manning to shore up the secondary of the league worse pass defense in NFL history than to actually come to terms (both sides have to agree to a contract) with Williams BEFORE the season started. Since they could not come to terms in such limited time, they probably thought it was best to put it off until the offseason.

BTW please get over that "He only beat a TE" argument, it's getting worn out and it's pathetic. Why don't you go look at film of Williams' "replacements" and go see how many "Dallas Clark's" (TE's) or weak players they had to beat to get there sacks.

Jackie Chiles
02-02-2012, 11:36 AM
Deacon Jones thinks we should keep him and has some pretty high praise:

I said that and I see you got your [tape recorder] out, he said. Well I am the best, there aint no damn question about that. I dont know who No. 2 is. Ill say he is potentially. He potentially can be the best in his era. He has the ability, he has the size, and all he needs is to get his head straight and make that commitment.

Theyd be stupid to let him go. Hes the No. 1 pick. Sure hes had some injures. Everybody gets injuries. You cant let a guy like that go. Hes a hell of a football player. If they do let him go, come to the Rams. Tell him dont do nothing until he comes to the Rams.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/33773/deacon-jones-texans-cant-let-mario-go

Rey
02-02-2012, 11:44 AM
You are forgetting what happened after the lockout was over. In order to sign Joseph and Manning, the team had to renegotiate some contracts with existing players. The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time. It doesn't prove anything. It does indicate that the Texans were less than committed to the guy for the long term. Considering he ended another season on the I.R. while the Texans defense was great without him, I'm not sure that beating Dallas Clark a couple times to sack Kerry Collins in week one and playing well against Pittsburgh in week 4 is enough to change their minds.

Generally higher profile players re-negotiate their deals when the contract is up.

If you are going to commit that much money to a player you want to have all the facts before hand. And that goes for both parties.

When Peyton Manning signed his contract I believe his contract was up at the time either.

For all we know Mario may have wanted to hit free agency to get a gauge of where his value truly is. It may have not completely been athe Texans' call.

And you have no idea if the Texans approached Mario at that time. You are talking out of your ass there. They could have talked and both parties decided to wait until the off-season. Or they could have talked and one part decided it was best to wait.

You don't know what is being discussed at Reliant.

Lots of guys play out the last year of their contract but for some reason, in this case, you have come to the conclusion that the team really didn't want the guy long term.

If the Texans don't sign Mario it will be because he cost too much. The end.

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 12:27 PM
:kubepalm:

Like Mario had any reason to want to renegotiate in a year where he was due 18 million with a contract in which he didn't recieve a signing bonus. By your logic then i guess the Texans weren't committed to Foster, Meyers & Briesel either since they didn't work out anything long term with them in 2011...How about the Saints with their inability to resign Drew Brees going into the last year of his contract in 2011. Do you think they're committed to him? :rolleyes:

You're a fool if you think that renegotiating contracts & re-signing players like Ja-ho-by & Rashard Butler is on the same level & takes the same kind of time and effort as renegotiating & re-signing players of Mario & Foster's ilk.

The Lockout was absoulutely apart of the reason they left Mario's contract alone....Mainly b/c everything was accelerated & b/c you couldn't contact players during that time as cbs1507 said. We didn't have the kind of time needed to sit with Mario & renegotiate something. Our secondary was historically bad in 2010 & we had to land 1 of the top cb's in FA...all focus was obviously turned towards that. Mario on the other hand was already in the fold for 2011. Why in the hell would you waste precious time renegotiating a deal with a guy who's already locked up & in the fold for the 2011? Our ability to sign Namdi or Joseph obviously wasn't dependent on resigning Mario to a more team friendly deal so why even deal with it at that point when:

1) you don't know how he'll do as a projected olb in Wade's system
2) you've got major priorities elsewhere in the secondary.
3) it takes 2 to tango & the player may not even want to renegotiate.....in that regard the only thing you can do is cut him.......not smart to cut your best pass rusher.

I guess by your logic we should be trying to renegotiate with schaub right now since he's going into the last year of his contract next year.


First of all, I was a proponent of the Mario draft pick, and I have hated Vince Young since about 2003. I certainly did want the Texans to draft Vince.

Second, here's how you restructure Mario (this is a very common way to handle these situations that is mutually beneficial to both parties):

Sign him to a six year deal and role that $18 million into the signing bonus. That way, it would get spread out and not hit the cap all at once. For instance, instead of giving him a 5 year $90 million dollar deal after the 2011 season, they could have worked out a 6 year $108 million deal, while giving him a signing bonus around $35 million.

Therefore, instead of a cap hit of $18 million, the cap hit would be around $9 or $10 million, depending on how they set up his yearly salary over the 6 years.

That they didn't do this indicates the organization was not convinced they wanted him long term.

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 12:32 PM
BTW please get over that "He only beat a TE" argument, it's getting worn out and it's pathetic. Why don't you go look at film of Williams' "replacements" and go see how many "Dallas Clark's" (TE's) or weak players they had to beat to get there sacks.

Mario has no history of playing well against elite tackles. If you are considering paying a guy elite money, it would be nice to have evidence he can outplay the best linemen in the game. People are eager to quote Mario's 5 sacks in 5 games to prove he was going to have a great year under Wade. What I saw was the same player I've watched for the past three years. He finishes well against lesser players and disappears against the good ones... and then he gets hurt.

Mr teX
02-02-2012, 01:15 PM
First of all, I was a proponent of the Mario draft pick, and I have hated Vince Young since about 2003. I certainly did want the Texans to draft Vince.

Second, here's how you restructure Mario (this is a very common way to handle these situations that is mutually beneficial to both parties):

Wrong, simply b/c "these situations" implies that we have a lockout situation every year & that's not the case.

Sign him to a six year deal and role that $18 million into the signing bonus. That way, it would get spread out and not hit the cap all at once. For instance, instead of giving him a 5 year $90 million dollar deal after the 2011 season, they could have worked out a 6 year $108 million deal, while giving him a signing bonus around $35 million.

Except you're leaving out 1 small detail....MARIO HAS TO AGREE TO IT!!! & tell me why would he agree to a deal that only nets him 17 more million when he could easily take the 18 million he's due to make in 2011, turn around & test the FA market in 2012 & net more in terms of guaranteed money & signing bonuses in the long run? that's the primary reason guys in his position want to test the FA market to begin with. What's more is that why would the texans give him that kind of a deal when they don't know how he projects in Wade's system as an OLB?



Therefore, instead of a cap hit of $18 million, the cap hit would be around $9 or $10 million, depending on how they set up his yearly salary over the 6 years.

That they didn't do this indicates the organization was not convinced they wanted him long term.

That proves nothing man other than how delusional you have become regarding this topic.

Mr teX
02-02-2012, 01:26 PM
Mario has no history of playing well against elite tackles. If you are considering paying a guy elite money, it would be nice to have evidence he can outplay the best linemen in the game. People are eager to quote Mario's 5 sacks in 5 games to prove he was going to have a great year under Wade. What I saw was the same player I've watched for the past three years. He finishes well against lesser players and disappears against the good ones... and then he gets hurt.

Please...Freeney & Mathis have padded their sack stats against us & the likes of Seth Wand, Jimmy Herndon & Ephraim "turnstile" Salaam for years. I didn't here you or anyone else rambling on about how less of pass rusher they were b/c of that.

Demarcus Ware had 19.5 sacks this year...Go look at the cowboys schedule and see how many of those sacks were against tackles are considered to be elite......Going further, go ask a cowboys fan how relevant those sacks were in terms of them winning the game.

You have been turned away with facts at every possible angle you try to attack this topic. You should just quit while you're behind......before you get lapped.

gafftop
02-02-2012, 01:52 PM
No, the ball is clearly in the Texans court. They need to come to Mario with a reasonable offer. If their offer is close enough or over what Mario & his agent "thinks" they'll get in FA, then Mario has no reason to look elsewhere.

If we get to FA without signing Mario, it's over. If Rick Smith wants to keep Mario, he doesn't low-ball him. He comes with his best offer. If that's not good enough, that's not good enough.

& I for one would be fine with that.

If Mario comes back & say he was insulted with the offer, like Vonta Leech says, then I'm mad at Rick Smith. If he says we just didn't meet eye to eye, then Rick Smith did his job. I don't think we should overpay for Mario, but we should offer market value.

Something tells me they may just let Mario test FA with no offer. I think any offer the Texans make will not be to Mario's liking before he gets offers. Plus I think Mario has come this far that he wants to test FA.

They may think best bet is to let him test and then try to match if possible.

Yeah and I think he is gone also, because it only takes ONE team to make a deal.

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 02:01 PM
Please...Freeney & Mathis have padded their sack stats against us & the likes of Seth Wand, Jimmy Herndon & Ephraim "turnstile" Salaam for years. I didn't here you or anyone else rambling on about how less of pass rusher they were b/c of that.

Demarcus Ware had 19.5 sacks this year...Go look at the cowboys schedule and see how many of those sacks were against tackles are considered to be elite.......

The Colts never asked me my opinion on signing them to a $100 million contract. The Colts and Cowboys are great examples, though, of what happens to teams that are too cap heavy with the cap. They sign their "stars" and hope everyone stays healthy. Sometimes, like in Ware's case, they have great years and it still isn't enough to make the team successful. I don't want a top-heavy team like that... particularly when Mario has never had a season anywhere near as productive as those three have had in the past.

Mr teX
02-02-2012, 02:19 PM
The Colts never asked me my opinion on signing them to a $100 million contract. The Colts and Cowboys are great examples, though, of what happens to teams that are too cap heavy with the cap. They sign their "stars" and hope everyone stays healthy. Sometimes, like in Ware's case, they have great years and it still isn't enough to make the team successful. I don't want a top-heavy team like that... particularly when Mario has never had a season anywhere near as productive as those three have had in the past.

sighs....i'll just stop responding to things like the bolded b/c it's clear you have it out for the guy regardless of the facts and what comes out the side of your mouth. & If being cap heavy means 10 years of division dominance, 2 sb appearances and numerous other playoff appearances between the 2 clubs, sign me up please.

amazing80
02-02-2012, 03:07 PM
With a rule stating you must be under the cap AT ALL TIMES, a Tag Price of $23m and only $19m in cap room, how do you propose you can tag and keep Mario? Sure you could chop away and find $4m to get there to get a T&T in place, but to actually keep him and at that price seems extremely far fetched. Not to mention he has two guys behind him that represent youth and the future.

I think getting a very solid #2 WR, a starting FS, and a draft pick for a guy who you can't keep anyway is worth considering. Laurent Robinson opposite of Andre Johnson with Schaub throwing and Foster keeping D's honest is a great offense for years and years to come.


How does everyone keep coming up with 22-23 million? Im no genius but isnt 120% of 16 million only like 19.2?

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/226977/franchise-tag-prohibitive-for-mario-williams

Williams earned $18 million in 2011. The mandatory franchise-tag raise would push his 2012 salary to a prohibitive $22.9 million, leaving Williams with quite a bit of leverage in contract talks.

Where did you get he only got $16m in 2011?

He did not earn no 18 or 19 million,

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/texans-salary-cap-number-shines-a-light-on-mario-williams-contract

Mario Williams is in the final year of his rookie deal and will be paid a base salary of nearly $14 million this year, all of which counts on the cap.

http://www.numeroten.com/top10/sports/files/top-10-highest-paid-nfl-players-of-2011.html

5. Mario Williams - 2011-2012 Salary $15,150,000 - Base Salary $13,800,000 - Signing Bonus $0 - Other Bonuses $1,350,000 - Contract 6 years / $54,000,000 - Signing Bonus 6 years / $0 - Guaranteed Money $26,500,000 - Last Year of Contract 2011 - Age 26 - Team Houston Texans - Position Defensive End

Numerous sites saying he is MUCH lower than that, I would say is around 15 million not even 16 million....


Each one confirms he made 13.8 Million in BASE, plus a 1.350 million bonus, bringing it to a total of 15.150 Million.


This is my post on another site, just to hopefully clear up this 22-23 million dollar franchise tag garbage that people (Houston chronicle) are spewing....the first and 2nd post are pretty irrelevant but the last one is money....Either way, its too much to tag him....hopefully we reach or deal or move on

ThaShark316
02-02-2012, 03:16 PM
I like how ol' dale brings up TEs about Mario when Connor Barwin's last sack of the season = VS a TE.

Regardless of that, dude lost when he called Mario Williams for a game he didn't even play.

amazing80
02-02-2012, 03:16 PM
After the money they threw at Dunta...... I doubt he'll be far from market value.


If Rick Smith thinks this team is better without Mario, I'll just have to wait & see. I won't accept a, "we couldn't afford him" answer.

What do you mean you can't accept that we couldn't afford him? Thats CRAZY talk, having the money for him and then costing ourselves players down the road because we over paid an over hyped player is nuts. We may have the money in the bank for him, but it doesn't justify spending it on him. Thats like spending 50 bucks at Chili's for yourself one night after work and then having to feed your family the rest of the week on 10 bucks. When you SHOULD have spent 60 on groceries and fed your entire family. Don't get greedy and spoil yourself when there is no need to.

thunderkyss
02-02-2012, 04:18 PM
In order to sign Joseph and Manning, the team had to renegotiate some contracts with existing players. The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time.

Got a link?

cbs1507
02-02-2012, 04:28 PM
The Colts never asked me my opinion on signing them to a $100 million contract. The Colts and Cowboys are great examples, though, of what happens to teams that are too cap heavy with the cap. They sign their "stars" and hope everyone stays healthy. Sometimes, like in Ware's case, they have great years and it still isn't enough to make the team successful. I don't want a top-heavy team like that... particularly when Mario has never had a season anywhere near as productive as those three have had in the past.

I wasn't aware the Texans asked for your opinion about signing Mario (got a link?). :thinking: I have some kind of hunch that your opinion is not shared by management.

thunderkyss
02-02-2012, 05:14 PM
What do you mean you can't accept that we couldn't afford him? Thats CRAZY talk, having the money for him and then costing ourselves players down the road because we over paid an over hyped player is nuts. We may have the money in the bank for him, but it doesn't justify spending it on him. Thats like spending 50 bucks at Chili's for yourself one night after work and then having to feed your family the rest of the week on 10 bucks. When you SHOULD have spent 60 on groceries and fed your entire family. Don't get greedy and spoil yourself when there is no need to.

Just because we sign Mario to a fair market deal, does not mean that we won't be able to feed the rest of the family.

I understand where dalemurphy http://www.mormonwiki.com/wiki/images/0/03/Dale_Murphy_mormon.jpg is coming from. I didn't like Dunta Robinson & no amount of money would have been "reasonable" to me. The Texans franchised him... should have used that money to get a real corner.

I think Mario is worth $12-$14M/yr, dalemurphy does not.... nothing I can say (obviously) will change his mind. I just wish he'd stop with the, "if we sign Mario, we won't be able to afford x player" that's not true, or at least we don't have enough information to reach that conclusion. It is his opinion. Would be fine if he presented it as his opinion, but he's not...... same as you.

I can feed the fam fine on $10 a week.

amazing80
02-02-2012, 07:00 PM
Just because we sign Mario to a fair market deal, does not mean that we won't be able to feed the rest of the family.

I understand where dalemurphy http://www.mormonwiki.com/wiki/images/0/03/Dale_Murphy_mormon.jpg is coming from. I didn't like Dunta Robinson & no amount of money would have been "reasonable" to me. The Texans franchised him... should have used that money to get a real corner.

I think Mario is worth $12-$14M/yr, dalemurphy does not.... nothing I can say (obviously) will change his mind. I just wish he'd stop with the, "if we sign Mario, we won't be able to afford x player" that's not true, or at least we don't have enough information to reach that conclusion. It is his opinion. Would be fine if he presented it as his opinion, but he's not...... same as you.

I can feed the fam fine on $10 a week.


Seriously, I wanna know what you can feed your family on 10 bucks a week?

thunderkyss
02-02-2012, 07:55 PM
Seriously, I wanna know what you can feed your family on 10 bucks a week?

Ramen noodles, with chopped lunchmeat, & tea.


.

mussop
02-02-2012, 08:51 PM
lol Nice try but no. ;) Mario Williams is our top priority because Foster is a RESTRICTED FA. Maybe some people should go look up the rules for RESTRICTED FA, but essentially it will be easier for us to resign Foster than Williams because Williams is UNRESTRICTED. I don't think anyone doubt Foster will be back next year. If Foster was our #1 priority he would have a deal already. #1 priority is to get a deal done with Williams before March 13, so we can know what kind of cap we'll have to work with for everybody else.

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/01/19/12/Foster-Williams-top-priorities-for-Texan/landing_texans.html?blockID=649138

hmm!

badboy
02-02-2012, 09:57 PM
http://www.foxsportshouston.com/01/19/12/Foster-Williams-top-priorities-for-Texan/landing_texans.html?blockID=649138

hmm!I have posted that McNair will take personal involvement in negotiations with Williams. He and Foster and Myers will be re-signed and I am almost as sure about Briesel.

DocBar
02-03-2012, 05:48 AM
Just because we sign Mario to a fair market deal, does not mean that we won't be able to feed the rest of the family.

I understand where dalemurphy http://www.mormonwiki.com/wiki/images/0/03/Dale_Murphy_mormon.jpg is coming from. I didn't like Dunta Robinson & no amount of money would have been "reasonable" to me. The Texans franchised him... should have used that money to get a real corner.

I think Mario is worth $12-$14M/yr, dalemurphy does not.... nothing I can say (obviously) will change his mind. I just wish he'd stop with the, "if we sign Mario, we won't be able to afford x player" that's not true, or at least we don't have enough information to reach that conclusion. It is his opinion. Would be fine if he presented it as his opinion, but he's not...... same as you.

I can feed the fam fine on $10 a week.
WOW!! Full on frontal homerist man-crush!! I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I think Mario is worth $10M/yr. at most.

Blake
02-03-2012, 07:56 AM
Pay that main his muhney.

http://www.golf-tips.info/forumdyna/bilder/rounders1.jpg

thunderkyss
02-03-2012, 11:35 AM
WOW!! Full on frontal homerist man-crush!! I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I think Mario is worth $10M/yr. at most.

Me willing to pay Mario $12-$14 M is no more homerist man-crush than wanting to pay him $10M is haterade. He is better most of the guys who are getting paid $12+

That's my evaluation. Not yours? that's fine.

DocBar
02-03-2012, 11:41 AM
Me willing to pay Mario $12-$14 M is no more homerist man-crush than wanting to pay him $10M is haterade. He is better most of the guys who are getting paid $12+
That's my evaluation. Not yours? that's fine.Name one.

Blake
02-03-2012, 11:58 AM
Name one.

Paul Soliai
Mike Vick
Mark Sanchez
Gerald McCoy
Sam Bradford
Jason Smith

To name a few.

ThaShark316
02-03-2012, 01:19 PM
C'mon Texans, re-up with Mario so I can make a "dalemurphy LOST" sig.

:bender:

DocBar
02-03-2012, 03:46 PM
Paul Soliai
Mike Vick
Mark Sanchez
Gerald McCoy
Sam Bradford
Jason Smith

To name a few.I was yanking TK's chain, not yours. :D

ObsiWan
02-03-2012, 04:13 PM
Ramen noodles, with chopped lunchmeat, & tea.


.

:spit:

you better go real light on the lunchmeat for ten bucks
:truck:

cbs1507
02-03-2012, 04:18 PM
Paul Soliai
Mike Vick
Mark Sanchez
Gerald McCoy
Sam Bradford
Jason Smith

To name a few.

Let's just go DE

Charles Johnson
Paul Soliai
Tyson Johnson
Dwight Freeney (you may think not but Mario is a better all around player. Colts have always sucked against the run and their DEs are major reason why "Built to play with the lead". They rush the passer effectively when they are up but are not good against the run. Mario does both well.)

The range for elite pass rushers is $10-$14 million. Most of the salaries for elite players fall between 11-13 million range. I would expect something like that. If you consider that his salary was reported as $18 million last year. I'd say that 11-13 million (even 14 or 15 average salary) is well worth it. They would clearly have to manipulate the contract according to expected future salary cap (meaning backload the higher portions) but I think it's doable.

badboy
02-03-2012, 04:35 PM
Positive note: Texans will be better in 2012 with or without Mario.

amazing80
02-03-2012, 04:59 PM
Ramen noodles, with chopped lunchmeat, & tea.


.

So fine, pay Mario and our roster will become ramen noodles and chopped lunchmeat....

DocBar
02-03-2012, 06:30 PM
Paul Soliai
Mike Vick
Mark Sanchez
Gerald McCoy
Sam Bradford
Jason Smith

To name a few.Does that point to Mario being "worth" that much money, or some poor owner got suckered? We don't want an owner that gets suckered do we?

steelbtexan
02-04-2012, 09:58 AM
Let's just go DE

Charles Johnson
Paul Soliai
Tyson Johnson
Dwight Freeney (you may think not but Mario is a better all around player. Colts have always sucked against the run and their DEs are major reason why "Built to play with the lead". They rush the passer effectively when they are up but are not good against the run. Mario does both well.)

The range for elite pass rushers is $10-$14 million. Most of the salaries for elite players fall between 11-13 million range. I would expect something like that. If you consider that his salary was reported as $18 million last year. I'd say that 11-13 million (even 14 or 15 average salary) is well worth it. They would clearly have to manipulate the contract according to expected future salary cap (meaning backload the higher portions) but I think it's doable.

Elite pass rushers. MW is a very good pass rusher. (Not Freeney/Ware/Matthews good, but still very good.) 10 mil seems fair to me with MW coming off injury.

Soliai plays NT not DE?

76Texan
02-04-2012, 11:54 AM
:spit:

you better go real light on the lunchmeat for ten bucks
:truck:

A guy I know at work uses Hot Dogs in his ramen noodle.
He cut them in third and put a few slices in them length-wise (2/3 of the way or so).
When it's heated up, they curl and look like squids (what he says.)
And the dude weighs some 250-260 lbs.
He plays lineman in HS. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

thunderkyss
02-04-2012, 12:05 PM
So fine, pay Mario and our roster will become ramen noodles and chopped lunchmeat....

That's the NFl. Schaub, Andre, Arian, Mario, Jjo.... that's your Cheddars or whatever. Jjones, James Casey, Mike Brisiel, Brice McCain... ramen noodles & lunchmeat.

Tom Brady... papa deauxs.... the rest of the team, ramen noodles.

Mr teX
02-05-2012, 01:45 PM
Elite pass rushers. MW is a very good pass rusher. (Not Freeney/Ware/Matthews good, but still very good.) 10 mil seems fair to me with MW coming off injury.

Soliai plays NT not DE?

:mcnugget: i actually agree with u..

drs23
02-06-2012, 11:40 PM
Just because we sign Mario to a fair market deal, does not mean that we won't be able to feed the rest of the family.

I understand where dalemurphy http://www.mormonwiki.com/wiki/images/0/03/Dale_Murphy_mormon.jpg is coming from. I didn't like Dunta Robinson & no amount of money would have been "reasonable" to me. The Texans franchised him... should have used that money to get a real corner.

I think Mario is worth $12-$14M/yr, dalemurphy does not.... nothing I can say (obviously) will change his mind. I just wish he'd stop with the, "if we sign Mario, we won't be able to afford x player" that's not true, or at least we don't have enough information to reach that conclusion. It is his opinion. Would be fine if he presented it as his opinion, but he's not...... same as you.

I can feed the fam fine on $10 a week.

We're neighbors. I wanna know where the hell you shop! I wanna go! :D

PHAROAH
02-07-2012, 12:39 PM
I think we need to do a sign and trade if possible and get some picks for Mario and move on and draft another OLB with the possible first round pick that we acquire in the possible trade and keep it moving it will be much cheeper then we can re-sign Arian Foster & Chris Myers.

b0ng
02-07-2012, 12:47 PM
I think we need to do a sign and trade if possible and get some picks for Mario and move on and draft another OLB with the possible first round pick that we acquire in the possible trade and keep it moving it will be much cheeper then we can re-sign Arian Foster & Chris Myers.

Sign and trade is more of an NBA thing, doesn't happen really in the NFL. The two outcomes that are most likely to happen are: One, we sign him to an extension or new deal and he remains a Texans for X amount of years, or two he goes into free agency and collects offers from other teams and is more than likely not going to be a Texan. There is a small chance that the Texans franchise him, which would be really dumb in my opinion, but that's basically it. We are not getting any draft picks for Mario Williams unless it is in the form of compensatory picks.

GP
02-07-2012, 01:43 PM
From a pure financial aspect, you let him walk. Period.

Doesn't matter if you like him, loathe him, or are indifferent to him. If this team wants to shackle itself for years to come, and be hindered in annual free agency opportunities, then go ahead and sign him.

But if you liked the defense you saw in 2011, knowing that it returns almost completely in the same form and fashion as it did last year, with the guy running it who knows how to run it, then why sign the guy to the HUGE contract that he will want? We are in position to be almost a Baltimore Ravens-type defense legacy here...a decade of nothing but plug-and-play, replenish and release, as needed, to stay a top defense every year. If Ravens had a better QB, they're playing in the SB not the Patriots. Same for us, btw. Love me some Yates, but it is what it is.

Why not make damn sure you can retain guys like Chris Myers (Geez, how that guy has grown since his first year here!), Arian Foster, and make a run at possibly Reggie Wayne or some other FA WR?

We won the Battle Of The Draft (MW vs. RB vs. VY) but that doesn't mean we get goofy and think we're obligated to tie Mario Williams around the neck of this franchise and toss it into the Gulf and ask it to swim hard and fast toward a Super Bowl.

By virtue of our success on defense, the success of this offense and its need for "next level" upgrades at WR and maintain the o-line and pay the franchise RB what he's worth, it has rendered the re-signing of Mario Williams impossible. It has nothing to do with whether he's good or not. It has everything to do with "dems da breaks, yo." That's how the cookie crumbles. It's business.

b0ng
02-07-2012, 01:53 PM
From a pure financial aspect, you let him walk. Period.

Doesn't matter if you like him, loathe him, or are indifferent to him. If this team wants to shackle itself for years to come, and be hindered in annual free agency opportunities, then go ahead and sign him.

But if you liked the defense you saw in 2011, knowing that it returns almost completely in the same form and fashion as it did last year, with the guy running it who knows how to run it, then why sign the guy to the HUGE contract that he will want? We are in position to be almost a Baltimore Ravens-type defense legacy here...a decade of nothing but plug-and-play, replenish and release, as needed, to stay a top defense every year. If Ravens had a better QB, they're playing in the SB not the Patriots. Same for us, btw. Love me some Yates, but it is what it is.

Why not make damn sure you can retain guys like Chris Myers (Geez, how that guy has grown since his first year here!), Arian Foster, and make a run at possibly Reggie Wayne or some other FA WR?

We won the Battle Of The Draft (MW vs. RB vs. VY) but that doesn't mean we get goofy and think we're obligated to tie Mario Williams around the neck of this franchise and toss it into the Gulf and ask it to swim hard and fast toward a Super Bowl.

By virtue of our success on defense, the success of this offense and its need for "next level" upgrades at WR and maintain the o-line and pay the franchise RB what he's worth, it has rendered the re-signing of Mario Williams impossible. It has nothing to do with whether he's good or not. It has everything to do with "dems da breaks, yo." That's how the cookie crumbles. It's business.


So you are saying there is no reasonable contract that you think could be worked out between Williams and the Texans that you would be okay with?

I don't understand this 100% all or nothing attitude towards Williams. You can sign him to a deal that won't kill your teams payrolls if you can get him to agree to it. You don't have to just "let him walk" and think you're better off without even attempting to keep him retained at 50% of what he was paid in 2011 for 2012.

GP
02-07-2012, 02:04 PM
So you are saying there is no reasonable contract that you think could be worked out between Williams and the Texans that you would be okay with?

I don't understand this 100% all or nothing attitude towards Williams. You can sign him to a deal that won't kill your teams payrolls if you can get him to agree to it. You don't have to just "let him walk" and think you're better off without even attempting to keep him retained at 50% of what he was paid in 2011 for 2012.

You think Mario is going to sign a friendly deal? LOL.

I've thought about this a lot. I have zero animosity toward Mario Williams. He made us competitive for as long as he was here. But moving forward, he isn't a piece of the puzzle that makes or breaks our defense anymore.

I have no doubt that he is going to want to be THE highest paid defensive player in the game. And if we don't pay it, someone else will.

I will be shocked if Mario has the Texans design a contract in such a way that it is not prohibitive to the upcoming flexibility we need to retain other players. We let VONTA LEACH go, and didn't miss a beat because of it. Rick Smith is not going to risk the dozens of others moves he's made here just to land Mario Williams. I suppose the consistent "sentimental" trait of Bob McNair, as he did with Carr and Dunta Robinson, is a wild card in this process, however. If Bob wants Mario badly enough, it will be done.

But I wonder if Bob's noobie label is wearing off. I wonder if he even dreamed that we'd be in the divisional playoffs if you'd have told him in August that we were going to lose AJ, Mario, Schaub, Leinart, D. Manning, Briesel, Foster, Hartmann and others for as much time as we did and STILL win the AFC South and be a few plays away from AFC Championship game. LOL. I wonder if the days of retaining Carr and Robinson, the "one last ride into the sunset" mindset is gone from McNair's psyche? It ought to be, IMO. SOLIDLY.

But whatever. If we can retain him and it's franchise-friendly, then it's fine with me. I just don't see Mario giving us any breaks on the deal.

GP
02-07-2012, 02:10 PM
I'm really excited either way, tbh. I mean...when has this team EVER been this good, like the way we were in 2011? I think we all expected it, but after 2010 it felt like it might never get here.

We're in position to build the foundation to such great strength that it makes us perennial AFC South champs for years to come. This is the sweet spot, IMO, where we have a window of time to be smart in our transactions and capitalize off of it.

Jags fans, Colts fans, Titans fans: How you feel right now, THAT'S how we felt all these years. You have faith (heart), but your eyes tell your brain that it's an uphill road each year.

b0ng
02-07-2012, 02:17 PM
You think Mario is going to sign a friendly deal? LOL.

I've thought about this a lot. I have zero animosity toward Mario Williams. He made us competitive for as long as he was here. But moving forward, he isn't a piece of the puzzle that makes or breaks our defense anymore.

I have no doubt that he is going to want to be THE highest paid defensive player in the game[1]


1: Citation Needed.

2012Champs
02-07-2012, 03:35 PM
If I was Mario Id want the most money possible. If thats his thought process the texans should let him walk

marks01234
02-07-2012, 06:25 PM
I don't think it will be all about money for Mario. Maybe I'm wrong but he seems to have a sincere interest in returning. There is usually some value for a player to stay in the same spot espically if they have built ties to the community which Mario seems to have done.

I think we figure out a way to get the deal done. Our shot is over the next two years IMO. Doesn't mean we should charge everything. Besides, I see the NFL cap continueing to take off over the next five seasons. New TV money will bring in a lot and their are a lot other factors at play.

steelbtexan
02-07-2012, 06:44 PM
:mcnugget: i actually agree with u..

WoW, LOL

steelbtexan
02-07-2012, 06:56 PM
Sign and trade is more of an NBA thing, doesn't happen really in the NFL. The two outcomes that are most likely to happen are: One, we sign him to an extension or new deal and he remains a Texans for X amount of years, or two he goes into free agency and collects offers from other teams and is more than likely not going to be a Texan. There is a small chance that the Texans franchise him, which would be really dumb in my opinion, but that's basically it. We are not getting any draft picks for Mario Williams unless it is in the form of compensatory picks.

New England begs to differ with you

See: Deion Branch/Cassell trades As well as the Welker trade with the Pats on the receiving end of the trade.

drs23
02-07-2012, 07:13 PM
From a pure financial aspect, you let him walk. Period.

Doesn't matter if you like him, loathe him, or are indifferent to him. If this team wants to shackle itself for years to come, and be hindered in annual free agency opportunities, then go ahead and sign him.

But if you liked the defense you saw in 2011, knowing that it returns almost completely in the same form and fashion as it did last year, with the guy running it who knows how to run it, then why sign the guy to the HUGE contract that he will want? We are in position to be almost a Baltimore Ravens-type defense legacy here...a decade of nothing but plug-and-play, replenish and release, as needed, to stay a top defense every year. If Ravens had a better QB, they're playing in the SB not the Patriots. Same for us, btw. Love me some Yates, but it is what it is.

Why not make damn sure you can retain guys like Chris Myers (Geez, how that guy has grown since his first year here!), Arian Foster, and make a run at possibly Reggie Wayne or some other FA WR?

We won the Battle Of The Draft (MW vs. RB vs. VY) but that doesn't mean we get goofy and think we're obligated to tie Mario Williams around the neck of this franchise and toss it into the Gulf and ask it to swim hard and fast toward a Super Bowl.

By virtue of our success on defense, the success of this offense and its need for "next level" upgrades at WR and maintain the o-line and pay the franchise RB what he's worth, it has rendered the re-signing of Mario Williams impossible. It has nothing to do with whether he's good or not. It has everything to do with "dems da breaks, yo." That's how the cookie crumbles. It's business.

:goodpost:

MSR

Where the hell ya been?

ObsiWan
02-07-2012, 07:32 PM
You think Mario is going to sign a friendly deal? LOL.

I've thought about this a lot. I have zero animosity toward Mario Williams. He made us competitive for as long as he was here. But moving forward, he isn't a piece of the puzzle that makes or breaks our defense anymore.

I have no doubt that he is going to want to be THE highest paid defensive player in the game. And if we don't pay it, someone else will.

But whatever. If we can retain him and it's franchise-friendly, then it's fine with me. I just don't see Mario giving us any breaks on the deal.

Could you provide a quote from Mario or his agent that backs up that assertion. Otherwise you're simply projecting how you would think in his situation. I do recall Mario structuring his #1 overall pick deal that was favorable (at the time) to the Texans so they could sign other players. He "gave us a break" back then. What proof do you have that his pro-Texans mindset has changed?

Mario is coming off a bad, injury-ended season. And was hurt the year before that. Plus, as several have pointed out, the defense was pretty dang good without him. So he's not bargaining from a position of strength. And, unlike Dunta, I've seen no evidence that he's itching to get out of Houston.

I will admit that if someone offers him reeeally stupid money that we won't match he might take it. But due to his recent injuries I don't really see that happening.

GP
02-07-2012, 08:31 PM
duplicate post.

GP
02-07-2012, 08:32 PM
duplicate post.

GP
02-07-2012, 08:39 PM
Could you provide a quote from Mario or his agent that backs up that assertion. Otherwise you're simply projecting how you would think in his situation. I do recall Mario structuring his #1 overall pick deal that was favorable (at the time) to the Texans so they could sign other players. He "gave us a break" back then. What proof do you have that his pro-Texans mindset has changed?

Mario is coming off a bad, injury-ended season. And was hurt the year before that. Plus, as several have pointed out, the defense was pretty dang good without him. So he's not bargaining from a position of strength. And, unlike Dunta, I've seen no evidence that he's itching to get out of Houston.

I will admit that if someone offers him reeeally stupid money that we won't match he might take it. But due to his recent injuries I don't really see that happening.

Could you provide a quote from Mario or his agent that backs up that assertion. Otherwise you're simply projecting how you would think in his situation. I do recall Mario structuring his #1 overall pick deal that was favorable (at the time) to the Texans so they could sign other players. He "gave us a break" back then. What proof do you have that his pro-Texans mindset has changed?

Mario is coming off a bad, injury-ended season. And was hurt the year before that. Plus, as several have pointed out, the defense was pretty dang good without him. So he's not bargaining from a position of strength. And, unlike Dunta, I've seen no evidence that he's itching to get out of Houston.

I will admit that if someone offers him reeeally stupid money that we won't match he might take it. But due to his recent injuries I don't really see that happening.

Hmmmm....sounds like you, also, are "Projecting how the other 31 NFL teams would think in their situations" when considering signing Mario away from Houston.

But I won't be a jerk and play straw man games like you did. I won't build you up and then burn you down by challenging YOU to show me YOUR sources.

Hey Obsi, I'm not sure if you noticed, but this is a sports message board and a lot of people project how things are going to go down. It's sort of normal.

GP
02-07-2012, 09:13 PM
1: Citation Needed.

Citation not needed*

*See: My reply to Obsi, who is also playing the "show me your sources" card.

Are you guys really going to play that card? We're all tossing around the ideas of what may happen and what possibly won't happen.

leebigeztx
02-07-2012, 09:49 PM
You are forgetting what happened after the lockout was over. In order to sign Joseph and Manning, the team had to renegotiate some contracts with existing players. The Texans didn't approach Mario during that time. It doesn't prove anything. It does indicate that the Texans were less than committed to the guy for the long term. Considering he ended another season on the I.R. while the Texans defense was great without him, I'm not sure that beating Dallas Clark a couple times to sack Kerry Collins in week one and playing well against Pittsburgh in week 4 is enough to change their minds.


In casr u didn't know or don't care, u can't re-negotiate when a player is in the last yr of his deal. Continue with ur crooked posts.

dalemurphy
02-08-2012, 12:00 AM
In casr u didn't know or don't care, u can't re-negotiate when a player is in the last yr of his deal. Continue with ur crooked posts.

Huh? Who said? That is simply not true. OR, if it is, please show or point me to that CBA rule.

thunderkyss
02-08-2012, 04:34 PM
From a pure financial aspect, you let him walk. Period.

Doesn't matter if you like him, loathe him, or are indifferent to him. If this team wants to shackle itself for years to come, and be hindered in annual free agency opportunities, then go ahead and sign him.

But if you liked the defense you saw in 2011, knowing that it returns almost completely in the same form and fashion as it did last year, with the guy running it who knows how to run it, then why sign the guy to the HUGE contract that he will want?

The GreenBay Packers were the #2 defense in 2010.

The Green Bay Packers were the 2nd to last defense in 2011.

drs23
02-08-2012, 06:50 PM
The GreenBay Packers were the #2 defense in 2010.

The Green Bay Packers were the 2nd to last defense in 2011.

Not trying to derail this thread but I've wondered about that all season. Same Coach, same players, same scheme. What the hell happened.

Real question looking for real answers because I'm concerned that the same could happen right here next season. Sophomore slumps and the such.

Input?

cbs1507
02-08-2012, 07:01 PM
Not trying to derail this thread but I've wondered about that all season. Same Coach, same players, same scheme. What the hell happened.

Real question looking for real answers because I'm concerned that the same could happen right here next season. Sophomore slumps and the such.

Input?

They let Cullen Jenkins walk in the offseason. They probably thought the same about him as some guys here feel about Mario.

drs23
02-08-2012, 07:09 PM
They let Cullen Jenkins walk in the offseason. They probably thought the same about him as some guys here feel about Mario.

Ah, forgot about that. So Jenkins was the glue that held that entire defense together? What about B.J. Ragi disappearing and the rest of the crew just weren't as sharp as before. Just because they let one guy walk?

dalemurphy
02-08-2012, 07:24 PM
They let Cullen Jenkins walk in the offseason. They probably thought the same about him as some guys here feel about Mario.


You are forgetting one, tiny detail:

Cullen Jenkins was on the field in 2010 when the Packers were playing great defense. Mario was on I.R. when the Texans were playing great defense. Do you really think the absence of Mario in street clothes will ruin the defense?

The Packers defense wasn't as bad as that stat indicates. Their explosive offense is a reason for their defense allowing so many yards. It also happens that the Packers were among the leaders in turnovers.

b0ng
02-08-2012, 07:34 PM
New England begs to differ with you

See: Deion Branch/Cassell trades As well as the Welker trade with the Pats on the receiving end of the trade.

The Cassell thing was a "Franchise-then-trade" which has been apparently written out of the new CBA. Branch still had a year left on his contract and was a holdout in Training Camp then the Pats traded him the first week of 2006 to the Seahawks.

Neither case is going to have much impact on what will happen to Mario Williams situation.

EDIT:

Apparently the way the franchise tag works now is that if the player is offered the franchise tag, then he is on your books immediately for that year even if he does not sign the franchise tag. Which means that GM's can easily play a waiting game while you bleed your cap dry by franchising a player you don't actually plan on keeping.

cbs1507
02-08-2012, 07:41 PM
Ah, forgot about that. So Jenkins was the glue that held that entire defense together? What about B.J. Ragi disappearing and the rest of the crew just weren't as sharp as before. Just because they let one guy walk?
Essentially he gave them more versatility on defense. He freed up their edge rushers and allowed the DC to get more creative because they could get pressure with less. Not so much this year.

You are forgetting one, tiny detail:

Cullen Jenkins was on the field in 2010 when the Packers were playing great defense. Mario was on I.R. when the Texans were playing great defense. Do you really think the absence of Mario in street clothes will ruin the defense?

The Packers defense wasn't as bad as that stat indicates. Their explosive offense is a reason for their defense allowing so many yards. It also happens that the Packers were among the leaders in turnovers.

True we did play well without Mario. But were we playing bad defense with Mario Williams? He didn't miss the whole season.

They did get a good amount of takeaways, but they were not nearly as dominant as they were last year. Aaron Rodgers just was able to mask some of their weaknesses. Last time I checked we don't have Aaron Rodgers on our team. BTW they did not get nearly as much pressure as they did last year. In 2010 they were a disruptive defense and were 2nd in sacks. This year just 27th. I would say you can attribute that to the loss of a player like Cullen Jenkins.

b0ng
02-08-2012, 07:45 PM
Citation not needed*

*See: My reply to Obsi, who is also playing the "show me your sources" card.

Are you guys really going to play that card? We're all tossing around the ideas of what may happen and what possibly won't happen.

I like to base my ideas off of stuff other than my imagination. I have yet to hear any public statements (or twitter statements or whatever) from anybody claiming to represent Mario Williams that he wants to be the highest paid defensive player in the league. Find me something that says those words (That isn't your own inner monologue) and we can have more polite exchanges of ideas.

drs23
02-08-2012, 07:46 PM
You are forgetting one, tiny detail:

Cullen Jenkins was on the field in 2010 when the Packers were playing great defense. Mario was on I.R. when the Texans were playing great defense. Do you really think the absence of Mario in street clothes will ruin the defense?

The Packers defense wasn't as bad as that stat indicates. Their explosive offense is a reason for their defense allowing so many yards. It also happens that the Packers were among the leaders in turnovers.

Can't quite get a handle on your point, or what you're saying here.

Please expound.

b0ng
02-08-2012, 07:54 PM
Can't quite get a handle on your point, or what you're saying here.

Please expound.

Apparently if your offense is really good it will. . . hurt your defense somehow?

What hurt the Packers defense the most was that Tramon Williams and Nick Collins were either injured or did not play nearly as well as they did in 2010. The stuff up front didn't help at all, sure, but their secondary in 2010 was devastating, and in 2011, was rather porous. Kinda the same thing with the Patriots, and specifically Devin McCourty.

drs23
02-08-2012, 08:05 PM
Apparently if your offense is really good it will. . . hurt your defense somehow?

What hurt the Packers defense the most was that Tramon Williams and Nick Collins were either injured or did not play nearly as well as they did in 2010. The stuff up front didn't help at all, sure, but their secondary in 2010 was devastating, and in 2011, was rather porous. Kinda the same thing with the Patriots, and specifically Devin McCourty.

Ahh. Thanks for clearing that up for me b0ng, I must have lost touch with reality there for a moment. :truck:

b0ng
02-08-2012, 08:41 PM
A good write-up on the Texans and their salary cap situation:

Now to look at individual teams. I'm tempted to start with the Cowboys, but they're easy to find information on, so I'll go with my second-favorite team.

The 2012 Houston Texans

Available Cap Space in 2011: $866,564

2012 Dead Money: $7,860,000
2012 Projected Total Contract Value: $86,928,881
2012 Projected Cap Space: $25,611,199

(Major) Dead Money in 2012:
Steve Slaton - 555,000
Amobi Okoye - 3,615,000
Dan Orlovsky - 2,250,000
David Anderson - 1,440,000

The Texans came into 2011 at just over $118M, right below the cap. While their 2012 isn't completely bogged down by dead money, they are looking at some tougher free agent battles than most teams. They don't have a ton of breathing room, and the injuries to Schaub and Leinart cost them a bit financially in 2011. The Texans will get some breathing room out of moving QBs off their roster, but are likely to lose one or more of their key free agents in the offseason.

2012 Houston Texans Unrestricted Free Agents
Arian Foster, RB
Chris Myers, C
Mario Williams, LB
Neil Rackers, K
Jason Allen, CB
Dominique Barber, S
Quintin Demps, S
Joel Dreessen, TE
Xavier Adibi, LB
Brad Maynard, P
Derrick Ward, RB
Jon Weeks, C

As the biggest current hit to their cap number, the Texans can't afford to franchise Mario Williams, whose cap hit was $15.15M in 2011 and would actually make 120% of that salary in 2012, jumping to $16.56M, and still sign Foster, Myers, and their rookie class. Based on where the Texans are drafting, I'd estimate their rookie pool this year to be around $4.5M.

Fortunately for the Texans, they don't have many glaring needs to address in free agency, and can afford to make solid offers to Myers, Foster, Dreessen, and Williams, whom I've listed here in order of importance. They should also look at retaining Allen, Barber, and Demps for secondary depth, and address their biggest need--WR--in the draft. The Texans have a great offensive line, one of the best defenses in the league, a capable QB, and good players at the WR and RB positions. They could benefit greatly from a playmaking WR across from Andre Johnson, and have very few needs that need to be addressed in free agency, particularly if they can retain these guys.

Center Chris Myers has been great for the Texans but at 30 there are questions as to how much longer he'll be able to play that that level. If they can, the Texans should lock him up to a 3 or 4-year deal to preserve continuity along the offensive line for a championship run. While the Texans' offensive line only ranked 22nd in pass protection in 2011, they were 4th in run blocking (4.36 adj. line yards per play), and ranked 3rd in the league in runs up the middle (4.57 adj. line yards per play). Myers was a big part of that and finding capable centers to execute Houston's complicated zone blocking scheme isn't easy.

There isn't a lot left to say about Arian Foster at this point... Although he's had some fumbling and health issues, it's clear that Foster is among the best running backs in the league. While he certainly benefits from the Houston offensive line, he's also great in Kubiak's zone run scheme, making his cuts quickly and effectively, and at 329 carries, he was the bulk of Houston's offense even before the team lost Schaub. Houston should be able to sign Foster to a long-term deal and if not, could potentially franchise him, a move that will cost them about $8M in 2012.

It's more likely they'll consider franchising TE Joel Dreessen, if they franchise anyone. Tight end franchise numbers are relatively light--$5.5M in 2012--and Dreessen was a valuable contributor to the team in 2011, both blocking and receiving, hauling in 28 catches for 353 yards and 6 TDs on 39 targets. His catch rate of 71.8% was among the league's highest for tight ends, and the Texans should look to retain him in 2012. Dreessen's contract should come in around $2M per year. He's a great insurance policy for Daniels and word is that he'll re-sign with the Texans.

Mario Williams is the biggest question mark for the Texans but it's clear at this point that the team can afford to let him walk. Williams costs too much to retain at his current level and the Texans had one of the league's best defenses after losing him. Still, acquiring or keeping Williams will likely mean signing him to a DeMarcus Ware-like contract--something in the area of 6-7 years at $80 million, though he may take less to stay with the Texans, who look like next year's preseason Super Bowl champs. If Williams goes to another team, he will probably find himself playing defensive end again, though that may be what he wants to do at this point as it is a position that he is more comfortable with.

I think the part about us not having many glaring needs for free agency is a good explanation of how it is possible for us to keep Mario Williams, Chris Meyers and Arian Foster on the same roster in 2012. Food for thought.

dalemurphy
02-08-2012, 08:43 PM
Can't quite get a handle on your point, or what you're saying here.

Please expound.

the 31st ranking is in one category: Total Yards Allowed.

When a team has a high scoring, explosive offense, it is inevitable that they will give up a lot of yards for a number of reasons:

1. Due to quick-scoring, there are more posessions per game... giving the opposing team more chances to move the ball.

2. The other team is in a track meet and will give up on the run quickly, take more downfield chances, etc...

3. When the defense regularly has a big lead late in games, it willingly gives up chunks of yards via prevent defense.


The Packers defense did take a step back this year, but they were nowhere near one of the NFL's worst defenses. They just gave up a bunch of yards.

cbs1507
02-08-2012, 08:48 PM
the 31st ranking is in one category: Total Yards Allowed.

When a team has a high scoring, explosive offense, it is inevitable that they will give up a lot of yards for a number of reasons:

1. Due to quick-scoring, there are more posessions per game... giving the opposing team more chances to move the ball.

2. The other team is in a track meet and will give up on the run quickly, take more downfield chances, etc...

3. When the defense regularly has a big lead late in games, it willingly gives up chunks of yards via prevent defense.


The Packers defense did take a step back this year, but they were nowhere near one of the NFL's worst defenses. They just gave up a bunch of yards.

Oh I get it. So a team that scores alot of points does not have to play defense? No I still don't get it. We were averaging 27 PPG when Schaub went down and still did not give up a ton of yards. The reason teams give up a ton of yards is because they can't stop the other team from getting it (sounds like bad defense to me).

This all goes back to the point I made about Aaron Rodgers covering their weakness. In the Packers case it was poor offensive line and a weak defense.

badboy
02-08-2012, 09:05 PM
I don't think it will be all about money for Mario. Maybe I'm wrong but he seems to have a sincere interest in returning. There is usually some value for a player to stay in the same spot espically if they have built ties to the community which Mario seems to have done.

I think we figure out a way to get the deal done. Our shot is over the next two years IMO. Doesn't mean we should charge everything. Besides, I see the NFL cap continueing to take off over the next five seasons. New TV money will bring in a lot and their are a lot other factors at play.I agree & he has already earned over $50million. I think another 50 is doable if constructed correctly. In fact I am already spending the saving on WR Bowe.

badboy
02-08-2012, 09:15 PM
A good write-up on the Texans and their salary cap situation:



I think the part about us not having many glaring needs for free agency is a good explanation of how it is possible for us to keep Mario Williams, Chris Meyers and Arian Foster on the same roster in 2012. Food for thought.
Great post and I think I agree on all points. Can you provide link for me to save as to who wrote it? Numbers match on Mario's cap with my sources. I have not thought about tagging Dreesen but that could happen if a deal isn't reached. His TDs/plays ratio is awesome.

b0ng
02-08-2012, 09:25 PM
Great post and I think I agree on all points. Can you provide link for me to save as to who wrote it? Numbers match on Mario's cap with my sources. I have not thought about tagging Dreesen but that could happen if a deal isn't reached. His TDs/plays ratio is awesome.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3464116

You may or may not have to be a member to view the thread on that forum.

badboy
02-08-2012, 09:31 PM
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3464116

You may or may not have to be a member to view the thread on that forum.Thanks! Does not say where he got info and that is problem I have with John McClain's statements. He has said recently that Mario was paid $20 million in 2011 and that the Texans were over cap by same but no links. As I said, this is identical numbers so he may use same sources I have.

b0ng
02-08-2012, 09:36 PM
Thanks! Does not say where he got info and that is problem I have with John McClain's statements. He has said recently that Mario was paid $20 million in 2011 and that the Texans were over cap by same but no links. As I said, this is identical numbers so he may use same sources I have.

I think he gets his numbers from sportrac unless there is a team specific cap site like NYJetscap.com.

GP
02-08-2012, 10:55 PM
A good write-up on the Texans and their salary cap situation:



I think the part about us not having many glaring needs for free agency is a good explanation of how it is possible for us to keep Mario Williams, Chris Meyers and Arian Foster on the same roster in 2012. Food for thought.

But in all fairness, there was also that last part that is even more glaring (in my eyes):

Mario Williams is the biggest question mark for the Texans but it's clear at this point that the team can afford to let him walk. Williams costs too much to retain at his current level and the Texans had one of the league's best defenses after losing him. Still, acquiring or keeping Williams will likely mean signing him to a DeMarcus Ware-like contract--something in the area of 6-7 years at $80 million, though he may take less to stay with the Texans, who look like next year's preseason Super Bowl champs. If Williams goes to another team, he will probably find himself playing defensive end again, though that may be what he wants to do at this point as it is a position that he is more comfortable with.

I still (currently) do not think Mario will sign a Texans-friendly deal. And why should he? He stands taller right now than Reggie Bush and Vince Young ever will. He won that war, and he deservedly should get to stand at the top of the free agency mountain after the amount of dung that was flung at him over the years.

He has excellent run-stopping skills, he's capable of moving sideline to sideline on every play he's a part of, and his sack numbers are great. He has no need to back down on his asking price, and he needs to let his agent get him the best deal he can get...it's a symbiotic situation for them.

I think IF we keep Mario, I don't see how we can retain anymore than Foster, Myers, Rackers, and Weeks (the long snapper). Interesting, btw, that they have our punter as Brad Maynard. Dreessen might be a casualty due to our ability to locate and use TEs out of each draft. The other players on that list are JAGs in one way or another. Foster, Myers, Rackers, and Weeks represent "needs" that you can't ignore. The others are replaceable, even Derrick Ward.

leebigeztx
02-09-2012, 12:28 AM
Huh? Who said? That is simply not true. OR, if it is, please show or point me to that CBA rule.

I thought you knew since you're so well versed in contracts. You can't redo a contract in the last yr. I guess if they wanted to extend mario for a yr and convert his salary into bonus to create space,they could have. Most times on redo contrat,teams normally take the guy with the freshest contract and add yrs and convert money. That's why smith and demeco got converted. Most teams go to the bank of the qb because they normally have the most money tied up.

leebigeztx
02-09-2012, 12:48 AM
:goodluck:But in all fairness, there was also that last part that is even more glaring (in my eyes):



I still (currently) do not think Mario will sign a Texans-friendly deal. And why should he? He stands taller right now than Reggie Bush and Vince Young ever will. He won that war, and he deservedly should get to stand at the top of the free agency mountain after the amount of dung that was flung at him over the years.

He has excellent run-stopping skills, he's capable of moving sideline to sideline on every play he's a part of, and his sack numbers are great. He has no need to back down on his asking price, and he needs to let his agent get him the best deal he can get...it's a symbiotic situation for them.

I think IF we keep Mario, I don't see how we can retain anymore than Foster, Myers, Rackers, and Weeks (the long snapper). Interesting, btw, that they have our punter as Brad Maynard. Dreessen might be a casualty due to our ability to locate and use TEs out of each draft. The other players on that list are JAGs in one way or another. Foster, Myers, Rackers, and Weeks represent "needs" that you can't ignore. The others are replaceable, even Derrick Ward.

Why do most posters think its all or nothing with mario? Maybe some of you need to call sirius radio and talk to pat kirwan or gil brandt. Just in case you can't or won't,let me give you something to chew on in regards to the cap ad capspace.

Capspace is basically double what you have in terms of cap charge for a player. His salary is what counts against the cap when the contract is written. If the player is terminated before the bonus is fufilled,then that's when teams have problems.



A lot of teams have been paying more up front and less on the back. The texans could give foster his 24m guarantee in the 1st 3 yrs(8m per) and if he falls off as rbs do,they can be off the hook with a 0 cap charge.

cbs1507
02-09-2012, 01:10 AM
Thanks! Does not say where he got info and that is problem I have with John McClain's statements. He has said recently that Mario was paid $20 million in 2011 and that the Texans were over cap by same but no links. As I said, this is identical numbers so he may use same sources I have.

I do not trust John McClain's information...

JLC reported the 2011 salary cap for ALL TEAMS. We were around $2 million UNDER the cap.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/

Furthermore, Article 11 Section 5(a) of the CBA states that ALL TEAMS must be UNDER the cap by August 5, 2011.
http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

...there is no no way we were EVER $20 million over the cap (let alone over the cap in ANY way).

So from this information we can say that we were about $2 miillion UNDER the cap for 2011. On top of that we have 17 FA's coming off the books.

http://www.sbnation.com/2011-nfl-free-agency/2012/2/7/2782415/2012-nfl-free-agents

Which means that we should have plenty of room to sign our key guys in the offseason.:doot:

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 05:26 AM
I thought you knew since you're so well versed in contracts. You can't redo a contract in the last yr. I guess if they wanted to extend mario for a yr and convert his salary into bonus to create space,they could have. Most times on redo contrat,teams normally take the guy with the freshest contract and add yrs and convert money. That's why smith and demeco got converted. Most teams go to the bank of the qb because they normally have the most money tied up.

If you are trying to say that the Texans are prohibited from signing Schaub, Duane Brown, Barwin, or any others entering the final year of their contract, to another contract that changes the framework of the final year of the existing contract - that's simply not true. Teams do that all the time.

If you are arguing something else, then you missed my point. The Texans could have gone to Mario before last season and extended his contract while dramatically reducing his cap number for 2011. They chose not to do that. I suggest it is because they were not convinced they wanted to invest long term money into him. I doubt a season spent on I.R. while the defense excelled without him has convinced the Texans to do what they weren't willing to do last year.

dalemurphy
02-09-2012, 05:47 AM
Oh I get it. So a team that scores alot of points does not have to play defense? No I still don't get it. We were averaging 27 PPG when Schaub went down and still did not give up a ton of yards. The reason teams give up a ton of yards is because they can't stop the other team from getting it (sounds like bad defense to me).

This all goes back to the point I made about Aaron Rodgers covering their weakness. In the Packers case it was poor offensive line and a weak defense.


Really?

First, the Texans are not a quick-strike team like Green Bay is. When the Texans offense is playing well, it is running the ball, controlling the clock, and converting long drives for TDs. The Packers don't run the ball. They pass a lot. They also score quickly. This reality creates more posessions in a game, giving the other team 12 chances with the ball instead of 9 or 10. Also, when a team is trailing by significant points, they are much more apt to throw the ball. Throwing the ball does a couple things: it slows the game down ( an incompletion stops the clock while a two yard run soaks 40 seconds off the clock), and it creates higher yards per play. Good running teams average far less than 5 yards per carry while an average passing team averages somewhere close to 7 yards per pass attempt.

So, looking at those numbers, a team that runs the ball, on average 45 % of the time per game, may have yardage stats like the following:

120 yards rushing and 220 yards passing = 340 total yards. Assume those totals result from 25 rushes and 30 pass attempts.

Now, when that team plays the Packers and the Packers score points quickly, the team is very unlikely to rush the ball 25 times and will throw more often. Each run play that is replaced with an incomplete pass adds time to the game. So, instead of 55 plays, perhaps the team gets 65 offensive plays. Furthermore, since the team had to abandon the run, perhaps they only ran 20 times and threw the other 45... If you kept the same metric in yards per attempt, here's the yardage totals:

90 yards rushing and 325 yards passing = 415 total yards.

Also, because the team is out of its comfort zone, it is more likely to commit turnovers and an increased number of sacks. Not surprisingly, the Packers were among the league leaders in sacks and turnovers.

This works in reverse as well. Horrible offensive teams tend to rate higher in total yards allowed on defense, because their opponents tend to play more conservatively, running the ball more and protecting it. Think Jacksonville Jaguars.


Still, as I said before, the Packers defense took a significant step back this year. My point is only that the YPG stat is a silly way to rank a defense.

GP
02-09-2012, 11:08 AM
:goodluck:

Why do most posters think its all or nothing with mario? Maybe some of you need to call sirius radio and talk to pat kirwan or gil brandt. Just in case you can't or won't,let me give you something to chew on in regards to the cap ad capspace.

Capspace is basically double what you have in terms of cap charge for a player. His salary is what counts against the cap when the contract is written. If the player is terminated before the bonus is fufilled,then that's when teams have problems.



A lot of teams have been paying more up front and less on the back. The texans could give foster his 24m guarantee in the 1st 3 yrs(8m per) and if he falls off as rbs do,they can be off the hook with a 0 cap charge.

I'd take the money we'd pay Mario and invest it into another position of need, most notably WR...but would also consider other positions that are always important to the Kubiak style of football here: OL, for instance, which is k-e-y to the success of the run game and keeping our QB upright. Also cannot overlook the need for a better guy in the secondary, whether that's a better Safety to pair with D. Manning or a better CB2 than Jackson/Allen.

It just seems we're relatively talented in the front 7 of this 34 defense right now, and can stack it even more in the draft and by growing guys like Braman off the UDFA tree. Why not take the money for Mario and toss into the bread basket of a WR, or an OL or a Secondary player to upgrade or strengthen those positions?

Why is THAT so impractical???