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steelbtexan
01-17-2012, 01:22 PM
ahhh, makes sense now. Thanks....

So it's sign him and live with it or let him walk with nada....

Glad I am not Rick Smith. I do not see this ending well....

Probably a compensatory 3rd rd pick. Depending on Who/ how many FA's the Texans sign this offseason

DonnyMost
01-17-2012, 02:17 PM
The new deal nullifies the F-tag deal. You don't get both. With the new CBA, a franchise tagged player cannot be traded after July 15th

Do you have any link for this? I heard you can't "tag with intent to trade". But nothing about a deadline.

The only thing I found in regards to July 15th was this...

Any Club designating a Franchise Player shall have until 4:00 p.m., New
York time, on July 1 5 of the League Year (or, if July 1 5 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the
first Monday thereafter) for which the designation takes effect to sign the player to a
multiyear contract or extension. After that date, the player may sign only a one-year
Player Contract with his Prior Club for that season, and such Player Contract may not be
extended until a fter the Club' s las t regular season game of that League Year.

So it seems like you can sign a guy to a long term deal and trade him any time after that. But if you wait until after July 15th to either trade him without having already signed him to a long term deal, then you're screwed when it comes to his tradeability.

GP
01-17-2012, 02:27 PM
FWIW, Schaub said he is on target to particpate in OTAs. Did not say 100% but i gathered that he feels he will start game 1.

I will believe CND before I believe Matt Schaub, even though it's Schaub's foot. CND said it's almost impossible for him to be plausibly ready by then.

I will never underestimate that guy's heart. He's tough as nails. But I think there's some motivational thinking going on. My daughter just got some weird "thing" put in her mouth at the orthodontist this morning, she hates it (she's only 7 and she's subconscious about its look and feel).

I asked the doc how long she had to have it in there, and he said hopefully 8 weeks and it gets taken out at that 8-week appointment. He said it SHOULD be by then, but could take another 8 weeks...he won't know until the first 8-week appointment. But the look in his eyes, when he told me that second part, was telling me with non-verbal communication that I better prepare MYSELF for 16 weeks but that I needed to coach my daughter that it will only be 8 weeks instead. Because she needs that bit of good news to get her through the initial 8 weeks. But hey, it "could" be ready the first time around, who knows though.

Schaub can say all he wants, he's going to naturally think he can somehow push the recovery and rehab time up to his own timetable. Human nature.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 02:28 PM
Do you have any link for this? I heard you can't "tag with intent to trade". But nothing about a deadline.


I'm reading the current CBA and there is a section on page 46 about this:

Any Club designating a Franchise Player shall have until 4:00 p.m., New
York time, on July 1 5 of the League Year (or, if July 1 5 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the
first Monday thereafter) for which the designation takes effect to sign the player to a
multiyear contract or extension. After that date, the player may sign only a one-year
Player Contract with his Prior Club for that season, and such Player Contract may not be
extended until after the Club's last regular season game of that League Year.

http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

Essentially, it's wrong to say that he can't be traded (sorry bout that), but rather you can't do a 'sign-and-trade' NBA style after July 15. So you can trade him, but he's guaranteed to work for that one-year deal and you can't change that. Given Mario's huge contract, I would imagine he would be a pariah of the NFL contract-wise with a 16.6 million dollar tag.

DonnyMost
01-17-2012, 02:30 PM
I'm reading the current CBA and there is a section on page 46 about this:



http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

Essentially, it's wrong to say that he can't be traded (sorry bout that), but rather you can't do a 'sign-and-trade' NBA style after July 15. So you can trade him, but he's guaranteed to work for that one-year deal and you can't change that. Given Mario's huge contract, I would imagine he would be a pariah of the NFL contract-wise with a 16.6 million dollar tag.

Yeah, it seems like the July date was put in there to make Franchised players toxic trade assets. Kind of a "******* or get off the pot" clause, if you will.

Well, that certainly complicates things.

Playoffs
01-17-2012, 02:30 PM
AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
RT @TylerSmith80: Would Texans ship Mario Williams out this offseason? ... He's a free agent. Could be tagged, but Houston wants him back.
2 hours ago

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 02:35 PM
Yeah, it seems like the July date was put in there to make Franchised players toxic trade assets. Kind of a "******* or get off the pot" clause, if you will.

Well, that certainly complicates things.

I see you found that section as well :)

I like the idea of making them toxic, but I think July 15th is too late. That's well after FA and the Draft, which is when the big names get paid. I really wish they would make it so that a tagged player cannot be traded at all for that season. The name "Franchise Tag" implies that the player is important to your franchise, and using them as a bargain chip seems to be inconsistent with calling them a "franchise player". If they are so important, I would think the team should be doing work to keep them, not ship them off.

badboy
01-17-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm reading the current CBA and there is a section on page 46 about this:



http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

Essentially, it's wrong to say that he can't be traded (sorry bout that), but rather you can't do a 'sign-and-trade' NBA style after July 15. So you can trade him, but he's guaranteed to work for that one-year deal and you can't change that. Given Mario's huge contract, I would imagine he would be a pariah of the NFL contract-wise with a 16.6 million dollar tag.But if the new team can work a long term deal the franchised amount can be negotiated away. EX: Pats get Mario and franchise amount is $17m. NE and agent agree to a long term deal with bonus money, the first contract year is negotiated, not $17m

Texecutioner
01-17-2012, 02:39 PM
IMO if you trade up for RG3 or Luck you include Schaub in the trade. If you contemplate a trade of Mario he pretty much has to be on board as in a trade to as perennial playoff team like New England. He could do this to allow Texans to recoup some draft picks. I still think many underestimate the relationship between Mario and McNair. Bob would say Mario, we love you but can move you to a team with SB chances and you can get that super contract we will work out with that team. We can add players that offer us a chance to move deeper.

Personally NE is the exact team that I would target to try and trade Mario. They run a lot of 4-3 schemes and Mario is a huge need for that team. They've been desperate for a strong edge rusher since they traded away Seymour. Mario would probably feel really motivated again being on a new team that usually gets a lot out of their players so I think a team like NE would really excite Mario as far as potential teams to go to. NE also has a lot of draft picks to offer the Texans, so both teams are practically perfect to benefit one another mutually to help each other improve right now.

GP
01-17-2012, 02:41 PM
Other than whether Schaub will return to form or not, we don't have any problems looming for 2012.

THE MARIO ISSUE....WHICH IS A NON-ISSUE, IMO:

Whether Mario gets re-signed or not is, IMO, not a big problem either. This team will thrive with him or without him, it's been proven so already. His strength is stopping the run game, his pass rush skills are a notch below elite. If he doesn't return, some Brooks Reed version 2.0 will emerge in his place...such as Bryan Braman or a new guy Wade drafts or picks up as UDFA or free agent.

O-Line:

Draft a Kubiak-type guy or two in 2012 and it'll add strength to this line. We're good to go.

QBs:

Schaub will make a return at some point, we'll see how well he comes back from the setback. In the meantime, Yates will have had a full camp and undoubtedly grow into making better decisions because of it.

RBs:

Not a problem.

WRs:

Lestar Jean will be a second-year guy for us, and will get a chance in camp and preseason to run the field and show his stuff. Remember the awesome grabs he made in preseason before he got hurt and I.R.'d? Yeah, I think he's the 2012 sleeper player for the Texans. Will likely draft or acquire a free agent WR too.

TEs:

Year after year, we just re-load at this position. Not worried.

Defense:

It's stacked. It will get even MORE stacked in the off-season of 2012.

AFC South competition:

Titans...what will they do to get better? Do they have a QB or will they need to try and find a better one in 2012 somehow? I think we're still better than them.

Jags...Not even worth the time to talk about them. We're better than them.

Colts...This is the mystery meat of AFC South teams, IMO. Never, ever, EVER underestimate these guys. Will #18 try a return to the helm? Maybe. Will Luck get the nod and be their guy? Maybe. Will they blow everyone's mind and switch to RG3? Maybe. They have the WRs they want. They need a RB. They need secondary help. These guys are a few smart moves away from being good again.

Overall:

This is the first year we head into the off-season and can relax about what will happen in the off-season, and in the draft, and in camp, and so on and so forth. Never before have we been afforded the luxury of just watching what happens and trusting that whatever takes place will be gravy on top.

We're the top team in the South, boys and girls. I'm not bragging, I'm not under-selling our foes. It is what it is. TODAY, and tomorrow, and in April, and in the summer, and on opening day, we can sit here and know that our team is the best team in the South. What a great feeling.

GP
01-17-2012, 02:48 PM
Personally NE is the exact team that I would target to try and trade Mario. They run a lot of 4-3 schemes and Mario is a huge need for that team. They've been desperate for a strong edge rusher since they traded away Seymour. Mario would probably feel really motivated again being on a new team that usually gets a lot out of their players so I think a team like NE would really excite Mario as far as potential teams to go to. NE also has a lot of draft picks to offer the Texans, so both teams are practically perfect to benefit one another mutually to help each other improve right now.

I'm not sure if I am stating it the right way, but I was under the impression that the reason Mario is better in a 3-4 rather than a 4-3 is because of this:

In a 43, the o-line is lined up against 4 down-linemen. This makes it easier for an o-line blocker to put their hands on Mario at the snap.

In a 34, the five o-linemen have a variety of formations to look at and dissect across the LOS from them. With Mario further back off the line, in the 34 defense, he presents a challenge because of the ways o-linemen will have to deal with the primary defenders at the snap.

To me, Mario could grow into a 34 and be better than he was as a DE in a 43 scheme. Then again, with the new coaching staff Wade brought in, you could see their hand-fighting teachings taking shape in everyone's play on the field in real games...Mario, more than anyone, was swatting blockers' hands away and beating them regularly to get to the ball carrier.

All in all, I think Bob will re-sign the guy. I don't how we make the dollars work, but I think he will try his best to re-sign him. If it doesn't cripple the team, then I don't care. I just don't want a goofy contract that handcuffs us in terms of flexibility to sign other guys.

badboy
01-17-2012, 02:53 PM
Personally NE is the exact team that I would target to try and trade Mario. They run a lot of 4-3 schemes and Mario is a huge need for that team. They've been desperate for a strong edge rusher since they traded away Seymour. Mario would probably feel really motivated again being on a new team that usually gets a lot out of their players so I think a team like NE would really excite Mario as far as potential teams to go to. NE also has a lot of draft picks to offer the Texans, so both teams are practically perfect to benefit one another mutually to help each other improve right now.You may remember my thread before season about trading Mario to Pats. I mentioned discussing with Charley Pallilo who thought they would not give up a 1st & 2nd but maybe two second rounds. I will be ok with Williams re-signing with a good contract but keep thinking what we could do with two high drafts picks in a deep draft. As NE keeps dropping as they go deeper in POs I would insist on a first and a high second.

Texecutioner
01-17-2012, 02:54 PM
I'm not sure if I am stating it the right way, but I was under the impression that the reason Mario is better in a 3-4 rather than a 4-3 is because of this:

In a 43, the o-line is lined up against 4 down-linemen. This makes it easier for an o-line blocker to put their hands on Mario at the snap.

In a 34, the five o-linemen have a variety of formations to look at and dissect across the LOS from them. With Mario further back off the line, in the 34 defense, he presents a challenge because of the ways o-linemen will have to deal with the primary defenders at the snap.

To me, Mario could grow into a 34 and be better than he was as a DE in a 43 scheme. Then again, with the new coaching staff Wade brought in, you could see their hand-fighting teachings taking shape in everyone's play on the field in real games...Mario, more than anyone, was swatting blockers' hands away and beating them regularly to get to the ball carrier.

All in all, I think Bob will re-sign the guy. I don't how we make the dollars work, but I think he will try his best to re-sign him. If it doesn't cripple the team, then I don't care. I just don't want a goofy contract that handcuffs us in terms of flexibility to sign other guys.

Well you could definitely be correct that Mario is better in a 3-4 defense, but we don't know that for sure because he got hurt to early. I agree with you that he certainly looked very good in the new scheme that Wade brought in and I liked the small sample I saw.

What I think that proved though is that Mario is probably a guy that can be versatile and play pretty well in both schemes which is a plus for his marketability around the league. He played in the 4-3 over here for most of his career, so there is no question whether or not if he can play in the 4-3. NE also changes their scheme up from time to time throughout each game and run 3-4 sets as well. Mario would be rejuvinated on a team like that in my opinion and would probably be happy about a trade like that. There are several teams that Mario could probably help, but not all of them will have the right assets to deal out. NE does, and they really "need" a huge veteran pass rusher like Mario to help out their D line who has been average for years now.

You may remember my thread before season about trading Mario to Pats. I mentioned discussing with Charley Pallilo who thought they would not give up a 1st & 2nd but maybe two second rounds. I will be ok with Williams re-signing with a good contract but keep thinking what we could do with two high drafts picks in a deep draft. As NE keeps dropping as they go deeper in POs I would insist on a first and a high second.

And NE is getting a first round type of talent at a position that they desperately need an upgrade at. THis is a sweet deal for both teams.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 03:26 PM
AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
RT @TylerSmith80: Would Texans ship Mario Williams out this offseason? ... He's a free agent. Could be tagged, but Houston wants him back.
2 hours ago

Gary sounded like the Texans wanted him & that He wanted to be here on his last show.

It's up to Rick Smith not to insult him.

:cow:

badboy
01-17-2012, 03:38 PM
Gary sounded like the Texans wanted him & that He wanted to be here on his last show.

It's up to Rick Smith not to insult him.

:cow:I think McNair plays a pivotal role in Mario's contract.

gafftop
01-17-2012, 03:41 PM
Personally NE is the exact team that I would target to try and trade Mario. They run a lot of 4-3 schemes and Mario is a huge need for that team. They've been desperate for a strong edge rusher since they traded away Seymour. Mario would probably feel really motivated again being on a new team that usually gets a lot out of their players so I think a team like NE would really excite Mario as far as potential teams to go to. NE also has a lot of draft picks to offer the Texans, so both teams are practically perfect to benefit one another mutually to help each other improve right now.

I would be amazed if we got something for Mario. Don't the other teams see the same thing we experience with Mario? He does have injury problems. I agree he plays when injured but no where near 100%. I just can't see anyone trading picks to sign Mario to a big contract. I hope that I am wrong.

Brandon420tx
01-17-2012, 03:44 PM
I think McNair gives him some "under the table money" to take a contract that best fits our cap situation

leebigeztx
01-17-2012, 04:00 PM
This is the problem. Why Texan fans think Mario is anything like Jared Allen is beyond me. If you want a comparison of a DE similar to Mario, I think the player would be Will Smith.

I wouldnt say you're a foolish person, just foolish to think will smith is as good as mario. No matter what you feel about mario, he is top 8 in terms of de/pass rushers in this league. Not only that, he plays the run well and if you look at his sack per pass attempts, you will see he's even better. He plays a premium position and is multiple in terms of the position you want him to play. He is the only player for the most mart you don't have to scheme to get a good pass rush out of.

The bottomline is you don't and cant let that guy walk at the age of 27. The texans don't have enough cap room to franchise him and keep him if that happens. The smart organizations will look at the top 10 highest paid and come up with a good contract for both sides. Again, you don't give up that kind of player at this stage in his career.

badboy
01-17-2012, 04:02 PM
I think McNair gives him some "under the table money" to take a contract that best fits our cap situation

If he did NFL would fine him heavily probably including loss of draft picks.

Texecutioner
01-17-2012, 04:04 PM
I wouldnt say you're a foolish person, just foolish to think will smith is as good as mario. No matter what you feel about mario, he is top 8 in terms of de/pass rushers in this league. Not only that, he plays the run well and if you look at his sack per pass attempts, you will see he's even better. He plays a premium position and is multiple in terms of the position you want him to play. He is the only player for the most mart you don't have to scheme to get a good pass rush out of.

The bottomline is you don't and cant let that guy walk at the age of 27. The texans don't have enough cap room to franchise him and keep him if that happens. The smart organizations will look at the top 10 highest paid and come up with a good contract for both sides. Again, you don't give up that kind of player at this stage in his career.

We have several good pass rushers that are younger and just as effective now. We could use the value that we could get for Mario or the money that we'd be paying him on another position of need to get a really good player. Mario is expendable now.

Brandon420tx
01-17-2012, 04:07 PM
If he did NFL would fine him heavily probably including loss of draft picks.

Only if he gets caught!!!

badboy
01-17-2012, 04:20 PM
Only if he gets caught!!!That is what a certain NE Pats coach said not too long ago about camera work if you recall.

leebigeztx
01-17-2012, 04:22 PM
We have several good pass rushers that are younger and just as effective now. We could use the value that we could get for Mario or the money that we'd be paying him on another position of need to get a really good player. Mario is expendable now.

Keep believing that if you want. Reed is a guy who will get a sack by atricsion, not by whooping another player. If they have so many good pass rushers, how come it took smith getting sacks in the last week to pass him as the 2nd leading pass rusher? Marion had been out for what 11 weeks. Thinking like this is one of the reason teams have short term success. They won games without andre, but that doesn't mean they are a better team. No one in the nfl gets rid of a premier de/olb pass rusher type at the age of 27. Not one team in the league does that and for good reason.

There is a reason those guys have the 2nd highest salary behind qb. If you think braman,reed and guys like that are close enough to replace him, go right ahead and test it out, but I don't think thats anywhere close to the truth. You want to have answers for teams in every way possible. When mario went down, smith struggled, but barwin came on. When teams started turning to barwin, watt picked it up even more. If you put mario back out there, now all those guys get one on one and the offense is in an even worse situation. Think about some of the best offense the texans will play going forward next year. This year, they played 1 high end offense and that was the saints and they gave up 40. Next year, they play lions,packers, and patriots. We don't know if payton is coming back or not, but if they lost to indy with a scrub qb, i'd imagine manning will get the offense clicking again. Mario is part of the answer, not the problem.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 05:14 PM
I don't think RG3 would land on the Texans...

Ok, maybe I have berated you a time or two... because of your lengthy alice-in-wonderland style posts...

But not the content.

You're excited about your team & I like that. So keep on keep'n on.

Your stuff is usually very well written as well.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 05:30 PM
If we give up a ransom to get RG3 you might as well just give up a little bit more and take Luck. He was made to play in this offense.

I hope the Colts do draft Luck.


Mario & them boys on Kirby are going to David Carr his ass for the next 4 seasons.

dalemurphy
01-17-2012, 07:14 PM
probably same reason you think you are anything like Peter King as a blogger....

Teams would pay a hell of allot more for Mario Williams than Will Smith...I'd bet my house a ridiculous government salary that you ask 31 GMs who they would rather have, 31 take Mario Williams over Will Smith any day of the week, twice on Sunday....

Will Smith had 13 sacks in 2010. He has similar tools and is similarly inconsistent.

By the way, he is in the middle of a 6 year $70million contract. If teams are willing to pay a "hell of allot more for Mario Williams than Will Smith", then there is no way he will be a Texan next year.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 07:28 PM
Gary sounded like the Texans wanted him & that He wanted to be here on his last show.

It's up to Rick Smith not to insult him.

:cow:

Well there you go.

The rest of us are just wasting our time dreaming about a day Mario Williams will not be a Texans.

dalemurphy
01-17-2012, 07:36 PM
Well there you go.

The rest of us are just wasting our time dreaming about a day Mario Williams will not be a Texans.

Based on Kubiaks' presser yesterday, I think it is almost assured that Mario will not be back. I can't post the video, but here's the quote:

(on the priorities will be in terms of personnel and the organizationís thoughts on Mario Williams) ďI canít even begin to go there as far as talking about our team and how get better and this and that. Like I said, Iím strictly in an evaluation process right now for me and the coaches looking at players trying to put a pecking order basically in how we think our football team finished the season. Thatís our biggest priority right now. As far as Mario, obviously Mario is a tremendous player. Heís done a great job here. Those things will work themselves out. I know Mario wants to be with this organization and this football team. Thatís part of the process. Weíll get going with the process, but Mario has always worked extremely hard and been a very positive influence with this organization and this team.Ē


That sounds like a polite kiss-off to me.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 08:03 PM
Based on Kubiaks' presser yesterday, I think it is almost assured that Mario will not be back. I can't post the video, but here's the quote:

(on the priorities will be in terms of personnel and the organizationís thoughts on Mario Williams) ďI canít even begin to go there as far as talking about our team and how get better and this and that. Like I said, Iím strictly in an evaluation process right now for me and the coaches looking at players trying to put a pecking order basically in how we think our football team finished the season. Thatís our biggest priority right now. As far as Mario, obviously Mario is a tremendous player. Heís done a great job here. Those things will work themselves out. I know Mario wants to be with this organization and this football team. Thatís part of the process. Weíll get going with the process, but Mario has always worked extremely hard and been a very positive influence with this organization and this team.Ē


That sounds like a polite kiss-off to me.

Sounds more like he's going to let Rick Smith & Mario's agent work out the details.

srrono
01-17-2012, 08:03 PM
http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/can-the-texans-afford-mario-williams-and-arian-foster

The multi-million dollar question for the Texans heading into free agency is what to do with Mario Williams who will become an unrestricted free agent in early March if the Texans don't lock him up before then.

Williams would be a hot commodity on the free agent market, presumably to a 4-3 team looking for a big-time defensive end.

The Texans have three options with Williams: a) sign him to a long term deal, b) franchise him, or c) let him go unrestricted.

There could also be a sub-option to (b) that would be to apply a franchise tag on Williams to buy time with the intent to trade Williams to a team that will sign him to a long term deal.

Let's explore the options just a bit.

Before we simply say 'sign him to a long term deal' you must look at the Texans salary cap situation for 2012. Details are still emerging but the cap will be somewhere around $125 million next season.

According to spotrac.com, the Texans have six players that will account for $44.8 million of that cap space and that doesn't include Arian Foster who will likely get a nice long term deal of his own in the next few months.
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Let's say for discussion purposes that Foster's cap hit in 2012 is $6 million. That means the Texans would have around $51 million in cap (more than 40%) wrapped up in seven players (and that wouldn't include Williams).

Add a fat Williams contract to the bunch and you could easily have the Texans using roughly half of their cap space on eight players - and the other half would be spread across the other 45 players plus contingency space for injured reserve.

See where I'm going with this?

As an aside, the cap values on the spotrac site may or may not be totally accurate because Andre Johnson, Antonio Smith and DeMeco Ryans re-structured their deals to help the Texans get under the cap last year and those amounts appear to be the pre-restructure amounts. So those cap figures may vary a bit, but they're probably close enough for this discussion.

As another aside, Williams' rookie deal with the Texans was 6 years - $54 million, with $26.5 million guaranteed.

How about that franchise tag for Mario? That would be even worse cap-wise than a long term deal since his tag (and cap hit) would be $16.56 million in 2012 until a long term deal or a trade could be worked out.

And then there's always the option to let him walk.

This wouldn't make sense to many fans but this is a business decision and you have to ask yourself the question: Is Mario Williams absolutely essential to the success of the Texans defense going forward?

I'm talking essential to the point where you're going to make him the highest paid player on the defense, a decision that will have a significant financial ripple effect throughout the rest of the roster?

Also, Mario has had his troubles with injuries over the past two seasons, landing on IR in both the 2010 and 2011 seasons with a sports hernia and a torn pectoral muscle.

What if you took Mario's money and spent it on a free agent WR2 and CB2 much like the Texans did last year when the passed on Nnamdi and signed Johnathan Joseph and Danieal Manning for the same amount?

I floated this idea on Twitter a few days ago and most of my followers liked the idea of taking care of Arian and then using the money it would take to sign Mario and spend it on other needs, and then drafting another outside linebacker to back up Barwin and Reed.

Plus, this isn't just a decision for 2012. The Texans have a much more challenging situation ahead of them in free agency in 2013 so these decisions can't be based on one-year situational snapshots. There needs to be at least a two year cap health plan in place to avoid the situation known as cap hell.

What do you think, Mario or no Mario?

DocBar
01-17-2012, 08:14 PM
That's not high of you consider him a FRANCHISE QB. I do! Would do it so fast it would make your head spin. Imagine the benefits of having a mobile QB that is really accurate and throws a beautiful deep ball.

To be honest with Schaubs injury history we should really consider this.Schaub has a 350lb turd fall on his foot and we're back to Schaub's injury history? I just don't understand that line of thinking.
I don't see Kubes giving a 2nd thought to Yates over Schaub. If Schaub is healthy, he's the guy. For a few more years. Yates will definitely be #2 and being groomed, similar to Rodgers, minus the egomaniac "tutor".
Kubes may take a flyer on a QB in the late rounds, cuz he just can't seem to resist, unless he's picked a couple of TE's by then.
I really,really,really hope this entire draft is BPA all the way through. We could use quality depth at every position. I would rather not reach for a WR in the early rounds unless that WR was BPA at that particular spot.
As far as MW goes, I still think the best case scenario is a sign and trade. I hold out some small hope that MW thinks a lot like AJ and wants to finish what he started here and will be willing to sign a reasonable contract to see that through. MW has been so quiet(understandable after his "welcome" to the league a lot of fans gave him. I was ecstatic with the pick.) that none of us have a clue as to what he's thinking.
I didn't take Kube's comments as a polite kiss-off to MW. I took them as a coach staying out of the way of negotiations. This will be between Smith and MW and his agent. Kubes did right by bowing out of the conversation and not helping or hurting either side.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 08:19 PM
Schaub has a 350lb turd fall on his foot and we're back to Schaub's injury history? I just don't understand that line of thinking.
I don't see Kubes giving a 2nd thought to Yates over Schaub. If Schaub is healthy, he's the guy. For a few more years. Yates will definitely be #2 and being groomed, similar to Rodgers, minus the egomaniac "tutor".
Kubes may take a flyer on a QB in the late rounds, cuz he just can't seem to resist, unless he's picked a couple of TE's by then.
I really,really,really hope this entire draft is BPA all the way through. We could use quality depth at every position. I would rather not reach for a WR in the early rounds unless that WR was BPA at that particular spot.

If we don't take a flyer, we'll more than likely grab an UDFA to carry on the scout team.

& while "some" people see a Flacco ceiling, the kid reminds me of Jake the Snake... only smarter.

DocBar
01-17-2012, 08:22 PM
If we don't take a flyer, we'll more than likely grab an UDFA to carry on the scout team.

& while "some" people see a Flacco ceiling, the kid reminds me of Jake the Snake... only smarter.I have a ton of respect for Yates and think he has a very bright future with the Texans. I just don;t see Kubes giving up on Schaub because Yates did pretty damned well, all things considered. Schaub was a HUGE gamble for Kubes and they've displayed a real chemistry together. I think that trumps the Yates "Cinderella" story in the real world. With Schaub, we're playing NE this week...as it stands now, we're all looking forward to FA and the draft.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 08:34 PM
I have a ton of respect for Yates and think he has a very bright future with the Texans. I just don;t see Kubes giving up on Schaub because Yates did pretty damned well, all things considered. Schaub was a HUGE gamble for Kubes and they've displayed a real chemistry together. I think that trumps the Yates "Cinderella" story in the real world. With Schaub, we're playing NE this week...as it stands now, we're all looking forward to FA and the draft.

Preaching to the choir.... I like Tj, what we've seen. But he has done nothing to make me believe he'll start over Schaub.

I believe there was a possibility, but that last game pretty much saved Schaub's job.

Tj will sit on the bench next season & wait his opportunity.

If Schaub is not healthy, every game he misses will be an opportunity for Tj to win the job, but he'd have to play better than Schaub, which right now, he's a far way off.

ObsiWan
01-17-2012, 08:36 PM
If we don't take a flyer, we'll more than likely grab an UDFA to carry on the scout team.

& while "some" people see a Flacco ceiling, the kid reminds me of Jake the Snake... only smarter.

Who knows... maybe Flacco is being coached by the wrong Harbaugh
:barman:

srrono
01-17-2012, 09:06 PM
http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/texans-free-agency-look-ahead

kingh99
01-17-2012, 09:08 PM
The Texans won't shop Mario Williams. They just won't. They couldn't get his value shopping him. They are going to quietly go about the business of resigning him. Now that doesn't preclude the possibility of another team seeing the chance of possibly enticing the Texans to do a deal and if that was the case then sure, you always have to consider ways to improve your team.

It's going to be up to the rest of the league if he stays or goes. See Patriots trade of Seymour for how it's done. Almost identical points in their careers when the trade came. Is Mario worth a conditional top 10 #1? That's pretty close to value in my opinion. This team would compete instantly for Superbowl after Superbowl with a frontline QB out of the draft. RG3 type talent would instantly take this team over the top for a decade if the coaching staff stayed in place. It would be the new southern dynasty.

gafftop
01-17-2012, 09:17 PM
http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/can-the-texans-afford-mario-williams-and-arian-foster

The multi-million dollar question for the Texans heading into free agency is what to do with Mario Williams who will become an unrestricted free agent in early March if the Texans don't lock him up before then.

Williams would be a hot commodity on the free agent market, presumably to a 4-3 team looking for a big-time defensive end.

The Texans have three options with Williams: a) sign him to a long term deal, b) franchise him, or c) let him go unrestricted.

There could also be a sub-option to (b) that would be to apply a franchise tag on Williams to buy time with the intent to trade Williams to a team that will sign him to a long term deal.

Let's explore the options just a bit.

Before we simply say 'sign him to a long term deal' you must look at the Texans salary cap situation for 2012. Details are still emerging but the cap will be somewhere around $125 million next season.

According to spotrac.com, the Texans have six players that will account for $44.8 million of that cap space and that doesn't include Arian Foster who will likely get a nice long term deal of his own in the next few months.
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Let's say for discussion purposes that Foster's cap hit in 2012 is $6 million. That means the Texans would have around $51 million in cap (more than 40%) wrapped up in seven players (and that wouldn't include Williams).

Add a fat Williams contract to the bunch and you could easily have the Texans using roughly half of their cap space on eight players - and the other half would be spread across the other 45 players plus contingency space for injured reserve.

See where I'm going with this?

As an aside, the cap values on the spotrac site may or may not be totally accurate because Andre Johnson, Antonio Smith and DeMeco Ryans re-structured their deals to help the Texans get under the cap last year and those amounts appear to be the pre-restructure amounts. So those cap figures may vary a bit, but they're probably close enough for this discussion.

As another aside, Williams' rookie deal with the Texans was 6 years - $54 million, with $26.5 million guaranteed.

How about that franchise tag for Mario? That would be even worse cap-wise than a long term deal since his tag (and cap hit) would be $16.56 million in 2012 until a long term deal or a trade could be worked out.

And then there's always the option to let him walk.

This wouldn't make sense to many fans but this is a business decision and you have to ask yourself the question: Is Mario Williams absolutely essential to the success of the Texans defense going forward?

I'm talking essential to the point where you're going to make him the highest paid player on the defense, a decision that will have a significant financial ripple effect throughout the rest of the roster?

Also, Mario has had his troubles with injuries over the past two seasons, landing on IR in both the 2010 and 2011 seasons with a sports hernia and a torn pectoral muscle.

What if you took Mario's money and spent it on a free agent WR2 and CB2 much like the Texans did last year when the passed on Nnamdi and signed Johnathan Joseph and Danieal Manning for the same amount?I floated this idea on Twitter a few days ago and most of my followers liked the idea of taking care of Arian and then using the money it would take to sign Mario and spend it on other needs, and then drafting another outside linebacker to back up Barwin and Reed.

Plus, this isn't just a decision for 2012. The Texans have a much more challenging situation ahead of them in free agency in 2013 so these decisions can't be based on one-year situational snapshots. There needs to be at least a two year cap health plan in place to avoid the situation known as cap hell.

What do you think, Mario or no Mario?

I floated this idea back in April of 2011 and I took a lot of hits for it. I wanted to trade Mario before the season started and have a WR1b and another quality CB for this past season. I am not sure based on our QB situation whether it would have made a difference but I sure would have liked our chances. The situation we have now with Mario was going to happen no matter what if the FO kept him and they did and now we are here. We did not have to be is this situation. I know stfu and stop crying over spilt milk. Sorry it just pisses the hell out of me that the FO couldn't see what was going to happen.

srrono
01-17-2012, 10:22 PM
R.Smith may be able to resign him with some cap movement. I am leaning toward franchise tag trade. I got this from McClain's Chat today
Players will redo their contracts to lower their cap figure. But to get them to do it you have to give them a signing bonus that can be prorated for cap purposes over the life of the contract. Say a player makes $20 million
this season, and you want to reduce his cap figure. You sign him to a
new five-year contract and give him a 30 mil signing bonus with a
first-year base salary of $2.5 million. For cap purposes, he counts
7.5 million this year rather than $20 million. That saves a lot of
cap dollars to be spent on others.

Matt Schaub 2012 7,150,000 final year could do a extension and more cap freindly.

DeMeco Ryans 2012 5,900,000 renegotiate

Andre Johnson 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate

Owen Daniels 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate

Eric Winston 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate

Antonio Smith 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate

Jeff Garcia was 1,000,000 let go

Jake Delhome was 5,400,000 let go That seems way off

Matt Leinart 2012 3,000,000 cut

D.Ward 2011 875,000 let go bring in a undrafted FA


all salary info from
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/

welsh texan
01-18-2012, 06:06 AM
On Spotrac Delhommes figure was a 2 year contract for $9mill ending this offseason. I wondered if their figure was based on his previous team and they simply haven't updated it to the contract the Texans signed him to.

That said, I don't understand 100% how mid-season IR effects the cap, but the Texans may have had a shedload of cash knocking about as some of their highest paid players went down so maybe they were flashing the cash to get this guy out of retirement.

gafftop
01-18-2012, 08:53 AM
To date I have not heard any of Mario's team mates express that Mario needs to be on the team next year. Still only talking heads like McClain are saying anything. What does it say to the other players if the Texans sign Mario to a big longterm contract that will definitely effect what the Texans can do with their present players and other FAs. What would it say to you if you were a FA this year or next if the Texans signed Mario to a huge contract. I think the writing will be on the wall for a few of OUR FAs if this occurs. We as fans should get ready to hear "Well because of the salary cap we were unable to resign ...." and could we end up with the same WRs we had this year plus Jean and and draft choice. or "Kareem has really come along during the off season and he is our starting CB"

I would like to see Foster signed, a FA WR , a FA CB, our core team we had last year along with our draft choices to give needed depth in selected positions.

The weak points on this team this year were (besides QB due to injury) WRs and CB not defense. I know it is fun to imagine this defense with Mario but I think we need to take care of the players that got us through the playoffs this year and get the players that will take us to the SB next. Mario is a luxury we can not afford. I don't see how we can have both. Again just my opinion.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 09:27 AM
On Spotrac Delhommes figure was a 2 year contract for $9mill ending this offseason. I wondered if their figure was based on his previous team and they simply haven't updated it to the contract the Texans signed him to.



Garcia and Delhomme were both signed as free agents. Delhomee got 5.4 million from his previous team, not the Texans. Sporttrac just moved his team rather than updating it with the undisclosed contract numbers. It's likely that both were signed for ~600k-1 mill for the year, but both joined around week 14, and only got a fraction of that payout. So their cap figures are quite low.

Also, Srrono's numbers aren't including bonuses either, so most of those players listed are much higher.


That said, I don't understand 100% how mid-season IR effects the cap, but the Texans may have had a shedload of cash knocking about as some of their highest paid players went down so maybe they were flashing the cash to get this guy out of retirement.

Their salaries still count against the cap so long as they are still one of the top 51 contracts on the team. So even after Mario was moved to IR, his 15.1 mill or whatever money still counted against the cap for us throughout the season. Come next year, all these guys that come off IR will be on the team, but once we get down to 53 players, we need to be under the cap (sometime in August).

Rey
01-18-2012, 09:39 AM
That wouldn't be enough Rey. Be real.


Did you miss the part where I said "and whatever else they need to" ?

I wasn't implying that in itself would be enough, but rather a starting point.

HJam72
01-18-2012, 10:41 AM
Sign and trade. Somebody with a 4-3 will be a sucker for him.

Blake
01-18-2012, 10:49 AM
Here is how I see it. Assuming we are right up against the CAP now @ 120 million. Assuming the CAP will go up to 127 million.

Data from Sportrac.

Jeff Garcia Unable to find what we paid him.
Jake Delhomme Unable to find what we paid him.
Quintin Demps cap hit was $668,750 this past season.
Dominique Barber cap hit was $587,000 this past season.
Arian Foster cap hit was $525,000 this past season.
Joel Dreessen cap hit was $1.225 million this past season.
Jason Allen cap hit was $1.23 million this past season, assuming we took over his original contract with the Dolphins.
Chris Myers cap hit was $3.5 million this past season.
Neil Rackers cap hit was $2.15 million this past season.
Matt Turk cap hit was $2 million this past season.
Derrick Ward cap hit was $1.75 million this past season.
Jon Weeks cap hit was $405,000 this past seaason.
Mario Williams cap hit was $15.15 million this past season.

That is roughly $36 million to play with. Plus whatever we paid those 2 vet QB's.

I really only see the Texans resigning Chris Myers, Arian Foster and Mario Williams. And maybe 1 or 2 others depending on their cost and value to the team. The others are more easily replaceable.

Jon Weeks is replaceable, but Kubiak seems to put a premium on deep snapping.
Neil Rackers could be replaced, but Kubiak will want a vet kicker. Neil has to be willing to keep his cap hit down.

Jake Delhomme and Jeff Garcia are gone.
Jason Allen will easily be replaced by Brandon Harris & Roc Carmichael.
Derrick Ward will easily be replaced by our draft class.
Joel Dreessen might be retained with a friendly cap number, but can be replaced by Garrett Graham.
Matt Turk will be replaced by Brett Hartmann.
Quintin Demps and Dominique Barber will be replaced by our draft class.

I would put Mario's cap hit around $10 million his first year. Foster, $7 million, Myers $5 million.

That is only $22 million. Even if I am off a few million here or there, it looks to be very achievable.

TexCanada
01-18-2012, 11:04 AM
I think I have the cap concept down, but could somebody correct me if I'm wrong?

Lets say the player and the team have agreed on a contract that will be for 4 years and 20 million dollars. Three possible ways to structure:

1) 20 mil split evenly over 4 years. Base Salary = 5mil/year. Cap hit = 5mil/year.

2) 10 mil signing bonus, remaining 10 split over 4 years. Base Salary = 2.5/year. Cap hit = 2.5 base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 5mil/year

3) 10 mil signing bonus, base salary backloaded: year 1-3 = 1mil, year 4 = 7mil. Cap hit in year 1-3 would be the 1 mil for base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 3.5mil. Year 4 cap hit is 7+2.5 = 9.5mil.

The third option has lowered the cap hit for the first 3 years of the contract, and still keeps the player happy by giving him 10 mil up front in the form of a bonus.

Did I get all of that right?

gafftop
01-18-2012, 11:05 AM
Here is how I see it. Assuming we are right up against the CAP now @ 120 million. Assuming the CAP will go up to 127 million.

Data from Sportrac.

Jeff Garcia Unable to find what we paid him.
Jake Delhomme Unable to find what we paid him.
Quintin Demps cap hit was $668,750 this past season.
Dominique Barber cap hit was $587,000 this past season.
Arian Foster cap hit was $525,000 this past season.
Joel Dreessen cap hit was $1.225 million this past season.
Jason Allen cap hit was $1.23 million this past season, assuming we took over his original contract with the Dolphins.
Chris Myers cap hit was $3.5 million this past season.
Neil Rackers cap hit was $2.15 million this past season.
Matt Turk cap hit was $2 million this past season.
Derrick Ward cap hit was $1.75 million this past season.
Jon Weeks cap hit was $405,000 this past seaason.
Mario Williams cap hit was $15.15 million this past season.

That is roughly $36 million to play with. Plus whatever we paid those 2 vet QB's.

I really only see the Texans resigning Chris Myers, Arian Foster and Mario Williams. And maybe 1 or 2 others depending on their cost and value to the team. The others are more easily replaceable.

Jon Weeks is replaceable, but Kubiak seems to put a premium on deep snapping.
Neil Rackers could be replaced, but Kubiak will want a vet kicker. Neil has to be willing to keep his cap hit down.

Jake Delhomme and Jeff Garcia are gone.
Jason Allen will easily be replaced by Brandon Harris & Roc Carmichael.
Derrick Ward will easily be replaced by our draft class.
Joel Dreessen might be retained with a friendly cap number, but can be replaced by Garrett Graham.
Matt Turk will be replaced by Brett Hartmann.
Quintin Demps and Dominique Barber will be replaced by our draft class.

I would put Mario's cap hit around $10 million his first year. Foster, $7 million, Myers $5 million.

That is only $22 million. Even if I am off a few million here or there, it looks to be very achievable.

Sorry I disagree. I may willing to give up some of the players but not all mentioned just to keep Mario who essentially was not even on the team. Too many things can happen if you make all these changes and you don't even take into consideration next year and the next. You may not be blowing up the Texans by making the changes you suggest but you sure are closer to blowing up this team than if you just trade Mario ( I really think it will be difficult to trade Mario now) and "improve" off what got you to the playoffs and beyond. This thread was started partially because of Mario's history before last year. Nothing changed as he got hurt again this year. I guess we just don't see things the same way.

Blake
01-18-2012, 11:26 AM
I think I have the cap concept down, but could somebody correct me if I'm wrong?

Lets say the player and the team have agreed on a contract that will be for 4 years and 20 million dollars. Three possible ways to structure:

1) 20 mil split evenly over 4 years. Base Salary = 5mil/year. Cap hit = 5mil/year.

Correct.


2) 10 mil signing bonus, remaining 10 split over 4 years. Base Salary = 2.5/year. Cap hit = 2.5 base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 5mil/year

Correct. Signing bonus can be given up front to. See Peppers Bears contract. Gave him his entire signing bonus up front. Cap hit for year 1 was $30 million.


3) 10 mil signing bonus, base salary backloaded: year 1-3 = 1mil, year 4 = 7mil. Cap hit in year 1-3 would be the 1 mil for base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 3.5mil. Year 4 cap hit is 7+2.5 = 9.5mil.

The third option has lowered the cap hit for the first 3 years of the contract, and still keeps the player happy by giving him 10 mil up front in the form of a bonus.

Did I get all of that right?

I think you got it.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 11:29 AM
Here is how I see it. Assuming we are right up against the CAP now @ 120 million. Assuming the CAP will go up to 127 million.

Data from Sportrac.

Jeff Garcia Unable to find what we paid him.
Jake Delhomme Unable to find what we paid him.
Quintin Demps cap hit was $668,750 this past season.
Dominique Barber cap hit was $587,000 this past season.
Arian Foster cap hit was $525,000 this past season.
Joel Dreessen cap hit was $1.225 million this past season.
Jason Allen cap hit was $1.23 million this past season, assuming we took over his original contract with the Dolphins.
Chris Myers cap hit was $3.5 million this past season.
Neil Rackers cap hit was $2.15 million this past season.
Matt Turk cap hit was $2 million this past season.
Derrick Ward cap hit was $1.75 million this past season.
Jon Weeks cap hit was $405,000 this past seaason.
Mario Williams cap hit was $15.15 million this past season.

That is roughly $36 million to play with. Plus whatever we paid those 2 vet QB's.

I really only see the Texans resigning Chris Myers, Arian Foster and Mario Williams. And maybe 1 or 2 others depending on their cost and value to the team. The others are more easily replaceable.

Jon Weeks is replaceable, but Kubiak seems to put a premium on deep snapping.
Neil Rackers could be replaced, but Kubiak will want a vet kicker. Neil has to be willing to keep his cap hit down.

Jake Delhomme and Jeff Garcia are gone.
Jason Allen will easily be replaced by Brandon Harris & Roc Carmichael.
Derrick Ward will easily be replaced by our draft class.
Joel Dreessen might be retained with a friendly cap number, but can be replaced by Garrett Graham.
Matt Turk will be replaced by Brett Hartmann.
Quintin Demps and Dominique Barber will be replaced by our draft class.

I would put Mario's cap hit around $10 million his first year. Foster, $7 million, Myers $5 million.

That is only $22 million. Even if I am off a few million here or there, it looks to be very achievable.

Great effort compiling all that, but there are a few more things to consider.

I added up those contracts you posted and got 29.19 million, not 36. Maybe someone else can double check the math for us.

Garcia and Delhomme didn't make enough this year to effect the 2012 cap of the Texans. If either gets re-signed, that new money will of course count. Matt Turk made 2 million deal with Jax, but was released. We likely paid him minimum for the games he played (terms were undisclosed), which means there won't be any significant money to count towards your total. Mike Brisiel is also a free agent this year, but I don't know what he makes, I would assume around 500k.


Contracts that will be going up next year:
Andre Johnson at at 6,000,000 6,500,000
DeMeco Ryans at at 5,800,000 5,900,000
Matt Schaub at at 5,700,000 7,150,000
Antonio Smith at at 4,600,000 5,500,000
Eric Winston at at 4,500,000 5,500,000
Kevin Walter at at 3,000,000 3,500,000
Matt Leinart at at 2,500,000 3,000,000 (probably will be cut)
Wade Smith at at 1,750,000 2,000,000
Rashad Butler at at 1,017,280 1,532,720
Brian Cushing at at 774,000 1,153,000
Kareem Jackson at at 405,000 700,000

Total cost 6.389 million in escalations from those contracts alone.

There are 12 rookie deals that will all be going up 85k each this year for a total cost of 1.02 million in escalations.

Contracts going down next year:
Shaun Cody at at 3,500,000 2,250,000

Savings of 1.25 million

Contract bought out:
David Anderson WR 333,333

Savings of 333k

Wild cards - Don't know the year-to-year salaries/bonuses:
Jonathan Joseph's deal
Daniel Manning's deal
JJ Watt, Reed, Harris, etc deals

Any of these deals could go up or down. For our purposes let's assume they stay the same.

Adding up all the costs and savings I get 6.033 million in extra cost next year. Subtract that and 2 million for Turk from your 36 million and you get approximately 28 million in free capspace to work with. If the total is 29 million as I got from adding your contracts, we have only 21 million to work with. Which makes it much more difficult to sign Foster, Mario and Myers.

Blake
01-18-2012, 11:40 AM
Sorry I disagree. I may willing to give up some of the players but not all mentioned just to keep Mario who essentially was not even on the team. Too many things can happen if you make all these changes and you don't even take into consideration next year and the next. You may not be blowing up the Texans by making the changes you suggest but you sure are closer to blowing up this team than if you just trade Mario ( I really think it will be difficult to trade Mario now) and "improve" off what got you to the playoffs and beyond. This thread was started partially because of Mario's history before last year. Nothing changed as he got hurt again this year. I guess we just don't see things the same way.

You do not trade/release young pass rushers. You just dont. See New York Giants.

Which player(s) are deal breakers for you? In my scenario that you responded to I brought back Myers, Foster, Williams, Weeks, and Rackers. I would also resign Mike Brisiel who I left off the FA list.

Lastly, I dont see Mario being out for 3 games in 2010 and 11 in 2011 as a problem. He played in 16/16 games his first 4 years. Players get injured. I wouldnt call his injury time excessive.

badboy
01-18-2012, 11:47 AM
The Texans won't shop Mario Williams. They just won't. They couldn't get his value shopping him. They are going to quietly go about the business of resigning him. Now that doesn't preclude the possibility of another team seeing the chance of possibly enticing the Texans to do a deal and if that was the case then sure, you always have to consider ways to improve your team.

It's going to be up to the rest of the league if he stays or goes. See Patriots trade of Seymour for how it's done. Almost identical points in their careers when the trade came. Is Mario worth a conditional top 10 #1? That's pretty close to value in my opinion. This team would compete instantly for Superbowl after Superbowl with a frontline QB out of the draft. RG3 type talent would instantly take this team over the top for a decade if the coaching staff stayed in place. It would be the new southern dynasty.99, it is not about getting value for Mario; rather about getting what you can if it is decided to trade him. I cannot imagine anyone even Mario's biggest fan thinking we could get a top 10 first round for him. Most fans either love him or hate him. Few seem to step back & just give a fair eval. It is up to Robert McNair only to decide if Mario remains a Texan. Regardless of any offer, Bob could turn it down

TexCanada
01-18-2012, 11:48 AM
Great effort compiling all that, but there are a few more things to consider.

I added up those contracts you posted and got 29.19 million, not 36. Maybe someone else can double check the math for us.



I think the extra 7 mil is based on the assumption of the cap rising from 120 to 127.

Blake
01-18-2012, 11:55 AM
Great effort compiling all that, but there are a few more things to consider.

I added up those contracts you posted and got 29.19 million, not 36. Maybe someone else can double check the math for us.

Garcia and Delhomme didn't make enough this year to effect the 2012 cap of the Texans. If either gets re-signed, that new money will of course count. Matt Turk made 2 million deal with Jax, but was released. We likely paid him minimum for the games he played (terms were undisclosed), which means there won't be any significant money to count towards your total. Mike Brisiel is also a free agent this year, but I don't know what he makes, I would assume around 500k.


Contracts that will be going up next year:
Andre Johnson at at 6,000,000 6,500,000
DeMeco Ryans at at 5,800,000 5,900,000
Matt Schaub at at 5,700,000 7,150,000
Antonio Smith at at 4,600,000 5,500,000
Eric Winston at at 4,500,000 5,500,000
Kevin Walter at at 3,000,000 3,500,000
Matt Leinart at at 2,500,000 3,000,000 (probably will be cut)
Wade Smith at at 1,750,000 2,000,000
Rashad Butler at at 1,017,280 1,532,720
Brian Cushing at at 774,000 1,153,000
Kareem Jackson at at 405,000 700,000

Total cost 6.389 million in escalations from those contracts alone.

There are 12 rookie deals that will all be going up 85k each this year for a total cost of 1.02 million in escalations.

Contracts going down next year:
Shaun Cody at at 3,500,000 2,250,000

Savings of 1.25 million

Contract bought out:
David Anderson WR 333,333

Savings of 333k

Wild cards - Don't know the year-to-year salaries/bonuses:
Jonathan Joseph's deal
Daniel Manning's deal
JJ Watt, Reed, Harris, etc deals

Any of these deals could go up or down. For our purposes let's assume they stay the same.

Adding up all the costs and savings I get 6.033 million in extra cost next year. Subtract that and 2 million for Turk from your 36 million and you get approximately 28 million in free capspace to work with. If the total is 29 million as I got from adding your contracts, we have only 21 million to work with. Which makes it much more difficult to sign Foster, Mario and Myers.

Thanks for the extra info. I think I added 7 million with the assumption that the cap will rise from $120 million to $127 million.

This is from Wikipedia. Might not be 100% accurate.

2011 $120 million
2010 Uncapped
2009 $123 million
2008 $116 million
2007 $109 million
2006 $102 million
2005 $85.5 million

As you can see the sallary cap has risen at least $7 million each year, minus 2011 due to the new CBA being put in place.

The only other extra cost I can think of at this point is possible playoff escalators that players and coaches earned.

badboy
01-18-2012, 12:11 PM
R.Smith may be able to resign him with some cap movement. I am leaning toward franchise tag trade. I got this from McClain's Chat today
Players will redo their contracts to lower their cap figure. But to get them to do it you have to give them a signing bonus that can be prorated for cap purposes over the life of the contract. Say a player makes $20 million
this season, and you want to reduce his cap figure. You sign him to a
new five-year contract and give him a 30 mil signing bonus with a
first-year base salary of $2.5 million. For cap purposes, he counts
7.5 million this year rather than $20 million. That saves a lot of
cap dollars to be spent on others.
Matt Schaub 2012 7,150,000 final year could do a extension and more cap freindly.

DeMeco Ryans 2012 5,900,000 renegotiate

Andre Johnson 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate

Owen Daniels 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate

Eric Winston 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate

Antonio Smith 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate

Jeff Garcia was 1,000,000 let go

Jake Delhome was 5,400,000 let go That seems way off

Matt Leinart 2012 3,000,000 cut

D.Ward 2011 875,000 let go bring in a undrafted FA


all salary info from
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/Someone check MY math as I think McClain made a small error in his. Using the numbers above, if Mario was given a $30m bonus with a 5 year contract the bonus avg is $6.5m added to the first year salary of $2.5m = cap hit of $8.5m not $7.5m. At least he has the formula correct & what I've been saying for two years in proposing trades.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 12:12 PM
Thanks for the extra info. I think I added 7 million with the assumption that the cap will rise from $120 million to $127 million.

This is from Wikipedia. Might not be 100% accurate.

2011 $120 million
2010 Uncapped
2009 $123 million
2008 $116 million
2007 $109 million
2006 $102 million
2005 $85.5 million

As you can see the sallary cap has risen at least $7 million each year, minus 2011 due to the new CBA being put in place.

The only other extra cost I can think of at this point is possible playoff escalators that players and coaches earned.

Gotcha on the cap, I overlooked that part. However, here's a report saying the cap will still be 120 million in 2012:

According to Charley Casserly, on Sunday's CBS pre-game show, the NFL sent a Grinch like message to all NFL teams last week, that the 2012 salary cap will not increase, or at best only increase very, very slightly. He adds that around 1/4 of all NFL players will be UFA's (Un-Restricted Free Agents) in 2012. This will make for a buyers market for teams that have cap room, driving down players prices, because of less money to go around. Many players may be forced to settle for low price, 1 years contracts, and hope to try again in 2013, when the new TV money kicks in.


http://www.catscratchreader.com/2011/12/19/2646007/salary-cap-will-not-increase-in-2012

So I wouldn't count on that 7 million.

gafftop
01-18-2012, 12:13 PM
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 12:18 PM
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks

If he hits the market without being tagged, I don't see how we keep him. In 2012, all teams that were under the cap (everyone) in 2011, will get to rollover any un-used capspace into 2012. Teams like the Chiefs, Bucs, Jags, etc will all have upwards of 40 million to spend. They could easily offer Mario a Peppers type deal where 35 million is paid in the first year. This money is also a "use it or lose it" type of thing. So if they don't spend the 2011 rollover in 2012, they won't continue to roll it up to 2013. I think this free agent market will be expensive, so if the Texans want to keep Mario they will have to tag him or re-sign him before March.

Blake
01-18-2012, 12:40 PM
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks

I would prefer to look at an OLB deal over a Peppers DE deal.

DeMarcus Ware - 7 yr(s) / $79,000,000 ($40 million guaranteed)
Terrell Suggs - 6 yr(s) / $62,500,000 ($38.1 million guaranteed)

I could see Mario getting another 6 year contract at around $68 million. ($40 million guaranteed.)

2012 - Base: $7 million - bonus: 3 million
2013 - Base: $5 million - bonus: 3 million
2014 - Base: $8 million - bonus: 3 million
2015 - Base: $9 million - bonus: 3 million
2016 - Base: $10 million - bonus: 3 million
2017 - Base: $11 million - bonus: 3 million
2018 UFA


A slight decrease in 2013 to allow for upcoming FA's such as Barwin and Brown.

infantrycak
01-18-2012, 12:45 PM
To date I have not heard any of Mario's team mates express that Mario needs to be on the team next year.

Then you didn't listen to for example Eric Winston yesterday.

[COLOR="Red"]Correct. Signing bonus can be given up front to. See Peppers Bears contract. Gave him his entire signing bonus up front. Cap hit for year 1 was $30 million.


Signing bonus is generally given up front. It is due at signing and then gets pro-rated. What you are talking about is where a team gives a roster bonus up front such as with Antoine Winfield when the Vikes signed him. The check is effectively the same to the player but roster bonuses are not pro-rated.

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 12:48 PM
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks

The total contract value is far less important that the guaranteed money. Peppers got $42 Million guaranteed on a 6 year contract (total value $84 Million). Unless Mario tells his agent he is willing to give the Texans a discount (which I would find mind boggling), I think he's going to be starting out at that number if not a little bit more. This is based on two things. First, it's been a couple of years since the Peppers deal, so that alone could make him think that he should get that amount - if not more. Secondly, Mario will be three years younger with two fewer years in the league than Peppers had when he signed with the Bears. He should have more tread left on the tires than Peppers did.

Now I don't think he'll get $42 Million guaranteed, but he might (if anything, somebody's probably willing to come pretty darn close) but I do think he's probably going to want to see that first hand by testing the market before agreeing to anything less.

badboy
01-18-2012, 12:56 PM
Gotcha on the cap, I overlooked that part. However, here's a report saying the cap will still be 120 million in 2012:


http://www.catscratchreader.com/2011/12/19/2646007/salary-cap-will-not-increase-in-2012

So I wouldn't count on that 7 million.my understanding is the cap for 2012 will remain apprx the same as 2011 as Casserly says.

badboy
01-18-2012, 01:00 PM
If he hits the market without being tagged, I don't see how we keep him. In 2012, all teams that were under the cap (everyone) in 2011, will get to rollover any un-used capspace into 2012. Teams like the Chiefs, Bucs, Jags, etc will all have upwards of 40 million to spend. They could easily offer Mario a Peppers type deal where 35 million is paid in the first year. This money is also a "use it or lose it" type of thing. So if they don't spend the 2011 rollover in 2012, they won't continue to roll it up to 2013. I think this free agent market will be expensive, so if the Texans want to keep Mario they will have to tag him or re-sign him before March.First I've heard of unused 2011 cap rolling into 2012. Can you provide link or where you got this? Thanks.

Dishman
01-18-2012, 01:16 PM
99, it is not about getting value for Mario; rather about getting what you can if it is decided to trade him. I cannot imagine anyone even Mario's biggest fan thinking we could get a top 10 first round for him. Most fans either love him or hate him. Few seem to step back & just give a fair eval. It is up to Robert McNair only to decide if Mario remains a Texan. Regardless of any offer, Bob could turn it down

The Rockets got Jordan Hill and a Top-5 protected 2012 first round pick from the Knicks for Tracy McGrady's corpse. I know that's not a football example, but maybe Rick could have some of the same luck trying to swing a trade for Mario.

b0ng
01-18-2012, 01:18 PM
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks

To keep Mario is entirely on what the market will bear for him. Does Mario get more money than Peppers got going to the Bears, because hell, back then people thought Peppers was a quitter? Is the non-raised salary cap going to play hell with teams who want to sign him? Who are the teams who could afford a cap hit like that?

I think looking at the contract Peppers got is probably a good starting place and you can go either up or down from there. Also, will Mario play for a discount in Houston now that he has horses around him who can also produce sacks, pressure, and good defensive play?

Here's Peppers's contract:

3/5/2010: Signed a six-year, $84 million contract. The deal contains $42 million guaranteed, including a $6.5 million signing bonus and a first-year roster bonus of $12.5 million. Another $7.5 million is available through incentives based on sacks, Pro Bowl berths, and Defensive Player of the Year awards. Peppers can earn annual $100,000 workout bonuses in years one through five. 2011: $900,000 (+ $10.5 million "signing" bonus), 2012: $8.9 million, 2013: $12.9 million, 2014: $13.9 million, 2015: $16.5 million, 2016: Free Agent

EDIT:

There's no way we will be able to trade Mario. His contract will end when FA begins in March and I'm pretty sure there is no trading between teams till at least then. We're either signing him to a new deal, or he's going to take offers from other teams come the beginning of March.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 02:07 PM
First I've heard of unused 2011 cap rolling into 2012. Can you provide link or where you got this? Thanks.

From page 96 of the CBA:


Carrying Over Room. A Club may "carry over" Room from one
League Year to the following League Year by submitting notice in writing signed by the
owner to the NFL no later than fourteen (1 4) days prior to the start of the next League
Year indicating the maximum amount of Room that the Club wishes to carry over. The
NFL shall prompdy provide a copy of any such notice to the NFLP A. The amount of
Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after
the year-end reconciliation

http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

In the previous CBA, teams could only carry over capspace that was to be paid to a player, but was in fact not earned. Teams used to do this at the end of the regular season by renegotiating a deal with a backup player where they would earn X dollars if they did some insurmountable feat like throw 10 TDs with only 1 game left on the schedule. Those X dollars would only transfer to the following year if they were unattained through contract, rather than being unallocated. Now both types will rollover to the next year if the club wishes.

badboy
01-18-2012, 02:29 PM
From page 96 of the CBA:




http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

In the previous CBA, teams could only carry over capspace that was to be paid to a player, but was in fact not earned. Teams used to do this at the end of the regular season by renegotiating a deal with a backup player where they would earn X dollars if they did some insurmountable feat like throw 10 TDs with only 1 game left on the schedule. Those X dollars would only transfer to the following year if they were unattained through contract, rather than being unallocated. Now both types will rollover to the next year if the club wishes.Interesting. The last sentence that you quoted could be made clearer. What are your thoughts on that sentence?

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 02:40 PM
The amount of Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after the year-end reconciliation

Interesting. The last sentence that you quoted could be made clearer. What are your thoughts on that sentence?

I think that has to do with the final count of the salary cap. In the next section it talks about incentives and gives examples of how a team may go over the cap due to performance incentives being reached:

At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted
in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club
exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be
subtracted from the Club's Team Salary for the next League Year.
(iii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses previously included in a
Club's Team Salary but not actually earned exceed performance bonuses actually earned
but not previously included in Team Salary, an amount shall be added to the Club's
Team Salary for the next League Year equaling the amount, if any, by which such overage
exceeds the Team's Room under the Salary Cap at the end of a season.

So if you are 2 million under the cap at year end, but have some guys meet performance incentives of 3 million during the playoffs or probowl, then you don't get to carry over 2 million. You instead get negative 1 million in the next year.

Although, it could be referring to something else entirely.

b0ng
01-18-2012, 03:21 PM
The Chronicle Weighs In (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/01/evaluating-the-texans-front-office-got-it-done/)

The top priority will be trying to sign outside linebacker Mario Williams to a new contract. Playing a new position in Wade Phillips’ defense, Williams had five sacks in five games before suffering a season-ending injury to his pectoral muscle.

“Anybody who knows anything about our team knows how significant Mario’s contribution has been,” Smith said. “We would love to have him back. It goes without saying he’s one of our best players.

“We’ve got some constraints with the salary cap, so we’ve got some challenges.”

Williams earned $18 million in the last year of his contract. If the Texans are unable to sign Williams to a long-term deal, they could franchise him, but that’s not likely because his franchise tag would be $22.9 million. Realistically, they can’t carry that figure on their cap.

“Obviously, Mario is a tremendous player,” Kubiak said. “I know Mario wants to be with this team. He’s always worked extremely hard and been a very positive influence on this team.

Some of the bolded stuff seems like McClain voo-doo numbers.

badboy
01-18-2012, 03:28 PM
The Chronicle Weighs In (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/01/evaluating-the-texans-front-office-got-it-done/)



Some of the bolded stuff seems like McClain voo-doo numbers.

Yeah I wished McClain would state his sources on salaries as I cannot find his numbers anywhere.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 03:32 PM
Yeah I wished McClain would state his sources on salaries as I cannot find his numbers anywhere.

Sources: Charlie Casserly


:roast:

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 04:12 PM
Yeah I wished McClain would state his sources on salaries as I cannot find his numbers anywhere.

Sources: Charlie Casserly


:roast:

What sources are there for any other number? Anything besides Spotrac?

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 04:26 PM
What sources are there for any other number? Anything besides Spotrac?

Rotoworld, general sports news, Jason La Canfora, etc.

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 04:39 PM
Rotoworld, general sports news, Jason La Canfora, etc.

Does rotoworld report anything other than annual base salary and total contract bonus/guarantee?

In terms of general sports news, I haven't heard anything consistent. Just yesterday I heard Matt Thomas say Mario's Franchise amount would be $17 - $18 Million, and a couple hours later, I heard David Dalati say around $22 Million. Plus, even prior to the Casserly comment, I'd heard 22 million several times from other sources (and while I'm not going to do it, I'm pretty sure you can find it referenced more than once on this MB). Not sure general comments really mean squat.

As far as La Canfora, I haven't seen anything he's said that was specifically related to Mario's franchise tag amount, so if you've got a link to anything, I'd defnitely be interested.

Blake
01-18-2012, 04:47 PM
Paul Kuharsky says...

a secondary provision of the franchise tag is that if it's not more than 120 percent of a player's previous salary, he gets that number instead. Williams has a $13.8 million salary in 2011. So his franchise 2012 tag number would be $16.56 million.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/50566/mario-williams-and-the-franchise-tag

Blake
01-18-2012, 04:49 PM
He also says the cap is expected to be about $125 million. Take that for what it is worth.

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 04:56 PM
Paul Kuharsky says...



http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/50566/mario-williams-and-the-franchise-tag

Yeah, well that article was actually updated after the fact to correct Kuharski's failure to realize that he didn't take into account the provision putting a minimum of a 20% increase over the previous years salary, so in my mind that kind of eliminates him as much of a source to be relied upon.

Also, while the CBA clearly includes the amortized bonus amount and a few other things in the definition of salary, Kuharski's update only reflects what I've seen as base salary, and even Spotrac (which I'm not at all confident in) reflects some bonus amount included in Mario's 2011 cap value. I don't believe Kuharski got it right - even on his second chance.

badboy
01-18-2012, 05:05 PM
Yeah, well that article was actually updated after the fact to correct Kuharski's failure to realize that he didn't take into account the provision putting a minimum of a 20% increase over the previous years salary, so in my mind that kind of eliminates him as much of a source to be relied upon.

Also, while the CBA clearly includes the amortized bonus amount and a few other things in the definition of salary, Kuharski's update only reflects what I've seen as base salary, and even Spotrac (which I'm not at all confident in) reflects some bonus amount included in Mario's 2011 cap value. I don't believe Kuharski got it right - even on his second chance.FWIW, Mario did not get upfront bonus so there is nothing to add to the base salary to get a cap number. He received guarantee money only.

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 05:34 PM
FWIW, Mario did not get upfront bonus so there is nothing to add to the base salary to get a cap number. He received guarantee money only.

I'm not going to simply accept this at face value - I don't know for a fact it's wrong, but I've reason to suspect it is. Even Spotrac (which seems to be the source most folks around here are going with) reflects a "Misc. Bonus" of approx. $1.3 Million in his '11 cap amount.

Going back a bit, one source a number of us on this board trusted more than any other for info. like this was "In the Bullseye". Keith and his staff seemed to be the best/most reliable source of Texans salary cap info out there, and while not all will be familiar with it, and while some won't agree, I know some of us trusted his info. more than other sources.

For whatever reason, they stopped updating this info. a while back, but what they had went through the 2010 season, and since Mario's contract hasn't been modified since he signed it, it stands to reason that if their info. was correct at the time, it's correct now. In terms of "Allocated Bonus Pay" factoring into Mario's cap amount, it reflected $2,406,720, $4,525,000, and $6,650,000 in 2008, 2009 and 2010 respectively. If we're looking at a bonus amount anywhere in this area, the $22 Million amount could make sense.

LINK (http://www.inthebullseye.com/cap2010.html)

Addditionally, here's a chart from USA Today (again - not updated to be current) that reflects the fact that for Mario's first four years in the league, there was never less than a $2 Million difference between his "Base Salary", and his Cap Value.

LINK (http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/player/Mario-Williams)

Again, I can't swear what's right and what's not (and that's part of the point), but I know I've heard $22 Million enough times from enough sources that I find credible (if not linkable) that I'm not assuming any number less than that is automatically correct.

gafftop
01-18-2012, 06:01 PM
I agree with many of your views on Mario.
I agree if he is not signed before he hits the market he is gone.
I agree we do not have 17-20 mill to franchise him.
I still don't understand how you franchise and trade. ??? It would be a plus if that could be pulled off.

We were so close this year even with a rookie QB. I think with MS we are playing this week with an even chance to go to the SB. Just like last year before the season started I thought we needed a real 1b wr and a quality CB in addition to JJ. I think you go out and get two FAs (WR and CB) so you know what you have. It worked last year with JJ and DM. Don't hope you get these 2 players in the draft. Draft another WR because I think we need 2 real WRs besides AJ.

To do this requires money. I don't think we will have the money if Mario is here. So if we keep Mario we roll the dice on the draft AND Mario to stay healthy again.

I also have no desire to mess up the chemistry this team had at the end. I think the chemistry was there. You make all the changes necessary to keep Mario and there is a chance you lose that chemistry. I also think paying Foster now is important to the chemistry of this team.

Again we were so close with NO Mario. I don't feel Mario alone will put us over the hill. Sure you can say we will take care of those needs in the draft and maybe you will. Just think if you can handle those two needs in FA and then build with the draft. Draft BPA etc.

welsh texan
01-18-2012, 06:09 PM
Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.

dalemurphy
01-18-2012, 06:31 PM
Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.


Then we are likely to lose Chris Myers, not get a good #2 WR in free agency, and will break our promise to give Foster a new deal this off-season.

We were right up against the cap this year and aren't getting much cap relief. We will either sign Mario to a long term deal or we will let him walk. I'm pretty confident of that.

cbs1507
01-18-2012, 07:52 PM
Yeah, well that article was actually updated after the fact to correct Kuharski's failure to realize that he didn't take into account the provision putting a minimum of a 20% increase over the previous years salary, so in my mind that kind of eliminates him as much of a source to be relied upon.

Also, while the CBA clearly includes the amortized bonus amount and a few other things in the definition of salary, Kuharski's update only reflects what I've seen as base salary, and even Spotrac (which I'm not at all confident in) reflects some bonus amount included in Mario's 2011 cap value. I don't believe Kuharski got it right - even on his second chance.

Can you post the corrected article?

Goldensilence
01-18-2012, 07:56 PM
I agree with many of your views on Mario.
I agree if he is not signed before he hits the market he is gone.
I agree we do not have 17-20 mill to franchise him.
I still don't understand how you franchise and trade. ??? It would be a plus if that could be pulled off.

We were so close this year even with a rookie QB. I think with MS we are playing this week with an even chance to go to the SB. Just like last year before the season started I thought we needed a real 1b wr and a quality CB in addition to JJ. I think you go out and get two FAs (WR and CB) so you know what you have. It worked last year with JJ and DM. Don't hope you get these 2 players in the draft. Draft another WR because I think we need 2 real WRs besides AJ.

To do this requires money. I don't think we will have the money if Mario is here. So if we keep Mario we roll the dice on the draft AND Mario to stay healthy again.

I also have no desire to mess up the chemistry this team had at the end. I think the chemistry was there. You make all the changes necessary to keep Mario and there is a chance you lose that chemistry. I also think paying Foster now is important to the chemistry of this team.

Again we were so close with NO Mario. I don't feel Mario alone will put us over the hill. Sure you can say we will take of those needs in the draft and maybe you will. Just think if you can handle those two needs in FA and then build with the draft. Draft BPA etc.

I was going to type in my two cents about Mario, but you summed them up perfectly.

Realistically, I think when its all said and done he walks. I just don't see how we could swing a tag and trade deal.

Good news is Indy is near maxed out on cap and facing decisions about Manning and a few other key vets.Jax and Tenn typically don't make big FA splashes. So I think we're safe for in division.

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 08:05 PM
Can you post the corrected article?

It's actually the article he linked that is corrected internally. At the beginning of the 7th paragraph, you'll find the following statement:

[UPDATE, 4:57 p.m.: I now interrupt this post to correct myself and make the rest of it an example of what could happen in another situation like Williams' instead of his situation itself.

Kuharsky then goes on to state that as a result of one of the comments posted to his original article, he essentially realized that he did not take the 20% provision into account when writing the original article.

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 08:13 PM
Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.

Strangely, my curiosity has less to do with Mario coming back or not coming back, but the interest in how much cap room his expring contract frees up. That number has been placed at anywhere from 13.8 Million to $18.3 Million (the number which 22 Million is derived from). That's a $4.5 Million difference (or 1.5 Jacoby Jones's), and I'm curious as to what number is real.

cbs1507
01-18-2012, 08:21 PM
It's actually the article he linked that is corrected internally. At the beginning of the 7th paragraph, you'll find the following statement:



Kuharsky then goes on to state that as a result of one of the comments posted to his original article, he essentially realized that he did not take the 20% provision into account when writing the original article.

Ok, then where are you getting the $16-22 million from? The article says 8-11 million would be the franchise number.

ChampionTexan
01-18-2012, 08:28 PM
Ok, then where are you getting the $16-22 million from? The article says 8-11 million would be the franchise number.

These are the two sentences immediately following the one which I quoted in my previous post.
As gbrussell points out below, a secondary provision of the franchise tag is that if it's not more than 120 percent of a player's previous salary, he gets that number instead. Williams has a $13.8 million salary in 2011. So his franchise 2012 tag number would be $16.56 million.

The last sentence where I'm getting the $16 Million from . The $22 Million is a number that's been floating around, and was specifically mentioned by Charlie Casserly on CBS over the weekend.

cbs1507
01-18-2012, 08:34 PM
These are the two sentences immediately following the one which I quoted in my previous post.


The last sentence where I'm getting the $16 Million from . The $22 Million is a number that's been floating around, and was specifically mentioned by Charlie Casserly on CBS over the weekend.

Ok I got you. They should do a better job editing their articles.

Here is the new CBA if anybody doesn't mind reading a lengthy contract.

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Franchise tags are in section 10.

nytexan
01-18-2012, 10:17 PM
I keep reading these worst case scenario's on Mario, having to franchise him because apparently he's going to ask for crazy money and oh my what are the Texans going to do. I guess I'm on the other side of the coin because I think Mario WANTS to be here.

When has this guy ever been a problem child?? I can't remember a game this year while he was on IR that he wasn't on the sideline cheering on his teammates. The guy has been on the team for the entire Kubiak era and do you really think he wants to leave the team NOW??? You never heard him going off on the team or a teammate during the down years plus how many other pro bowl players in a contract year would have readily accepted a change in position that he did this year. Is he going to get pretty big money most likely but I just don't see him leaving especially coming off the injury.

Here are the current ages of the Texans Defensive players.
Linebackers
Barwin 25
Braman 25
Cushing 24
Reed 24
Ryans 27
Sharpton 23
Williams 26

Linemen
Bulman 29
Cody 28
Jamison 25
Mitchell 24
Smith 30
Watt 22
Nading 26

Secondary
Jason Allen 28
Carmichael 23
Demps 26
Harris 21
K.Jackson 23
Joseph 27
Keo 24
Manning 29
McManis 24
Nolan 25
Quin 25

Whether they keep him at OLB or move him back to DE, the guy is too young to give up on. He fits right in with the youth movement they've worked the past 6 years to build and I just don't see them abandoning their plan now. If he was in his 30's I'd say he's gone but at 26 and only to be 27 next year NO WAY they give him up and again I'll emphasize there is no history of him ever being a problem. They talked Andre Johnson into accepting a better number last year, I'm betting he'll do the same to remain on the team.

SW H-TOWN
01-18-2012, 11:08 PM
I think everybody would like to keep Mario Williams, however he is an extremely expensive commodity. The question is can you keep him and resign players who play an important role and whose contracts end in 2012 and 2013 (Matt Schuab, Arian Foster, Chris Myers, Duane Brown, Connor Barwin, Brice McCain, Shaun Cody, Glover Quinn, and Joel Dreessen). More importantly you have to look at these players contracts and see who will get a huge pay raise, a substantial pay raise, and who will not be brought back or cut. Arian Foster and Duane Brown are going to get huge pay raises. Connor Barwin, Chris Myers,Brice McCain, and Glover Quinn will get substantial pay raises. The good news is that we will probably save a lot of cap space. Jason Allen will not be brought back at 6 years 24 million and Neil Rackers will not be brought back at 2 years 4.1 million. Also I think that the front office will attempt to restructure Andre Johnson's and Demeco Ryan's contracts (those are some huge numbers). Lastly I think that something has to be done with Kevin Walters but I'm not sure what (5 years 21.5 million...wow) and Jacoby Jones will be cut. Info coming from spotrac.com. Lot of variables the front office is taking dealing with. Hope they are good at freeing up cap room.

Kaiser Toro
01-19-2012, 12:26 AM
From Pasquarelli in 2006 (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2458925&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dpasquar elli_len%26id%3d2458925)

League salary documents obtained by ESPN.com confirm the six-year contract signed last month by former North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, the first selection in this year's draft by the Houston Texans, features a basic value of $54 million and a maximum worth, counting all possible bonuses, incentives and escalators, of $62.1 million.

The guaranteed money in the contract is initially $21.75 million, and then jumps to $26.5 million after the Texans exercise an option next spring.

And the signing bonus is zero.

That's right, folks, no signing bonus.

It is believed to be the first time in modern history that the top overall selection in a draft agreed to a deal with no signing bonus included. But that's hardly reason to pass around the collection basket for Williams. In fact, first-round contracts with no signing bonus money were frequently employed in 2005 as a means of countering collective bargaining agreement restrictions while still achieving the maximum value in most deals, and the trend almost certainly will continue this year.


The mechanism was certainly effective in 2005, when first-round choices garnered increases in guaranteed money of 10-20 percent over their 2004 counterparts. That despite the fact that exactly half of the 32 first-round picks signed contracts that paid them no signing bonus money. In virtually every case last year, players who signed contracts that included no signing bonus were able to improve their deals' total guarantees.

Only two first-rounders -- Cleveland wide receiver Braylon Edwards and Chicago tailback Cedric Benson -- received signing bonuses of more than $3 million in 2005. Top overall choice Alex Smith, the former Utah quarterback chosen by the San Francisco 49ers, banked a signing bonus of just $1 million. Four of the top 10 picks last season -- Miami tailback Ronnie Brown (No. 2), Minnesota wide receiver Troy Williamson (No. 7), Arizona cornerback Antrel Rolle (No. 8) and Washington cornerback Carlos Rogers (No. 9) -- received no signing bonuses.

It didn't keep them from landing very good contracts, however, and it likely won't affect players chosen in the first round of this year's draft, either. The number that counts the most is guaranteed money, and in the case of zero-signing bonus contracts, the total hasn't been diminished by a lack of up front money.

In the case of Williams, he received a $2.625 million roster bonus on what essentially is a five-year deal with an option for a sixth season. Under the terms of the contract, the base salaries for the first five years -- $275,000 (2006), $3.625 million (2007), $4.35 million (2008), $5.075 million (2009) and $5.8 million (2010) -- are fully guaranteed. That totals $21.75 million in guarantees.

But the guarantees escalate to $26.5 million next spring, when the Texans pay Williams $12 million to exercise their option for a sixth season on the contract. By exercising the option, the Texans reduce the salaries in Years 2-5 of the contract -- to $975,000 (2007), $1.575 million (2008), $2.3 million (2009) and $3.025 million (2010) -- and add the 2011 season at a base salary of $3.725 million. All the base salaries are guaranteed, bringing the total guaranteed money to $26.5 million.

Williams can void the final two years of the deal based on playing time levels and if he and the team reach certain predetermined performance levels, but the Texans then have a right to buy back the voided 2010 and 2011 seasons at a cost of $8.5 million. There are plenty of incentives, like $125,000 in most years for leading the league in sacks, bonuses for honors and playoff victories, and escalators that can raise the base salaries in 2010 and 2011 by $6 million and $9.5 million, respectively.

But mostly there is a lot of money, even if none of it is delivered in the form of a traditional signing bonus, and the Williams contract is certain to be a template of sorts for many more first-round deals.

Lady.Gaga.3000
01-19-2012, 01:08 AM
Remember when people on T.V. would say that players would take a pay cut to play for Belichick and the Patriots?

I wish we could get to that status. Because eventually we are going to have to pay for our cheap studs (Barwin, Quin, whoever is underpaid on the O-line, etc.).

gafftop
01-19-2012, 07:57 AM
Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.

What if we don't sign him or even better we are able to trade him for a couple of 2nd round picks ( still have no clue how this happens but maybe there is a way) We free up his cap space from last year say $15 million and we are able to pick up in free agency a WR1b, another quality CB, pay Foster, and maybe get a couple of extra draft choices, and make it easier to deal with our FA in 2013. Basically we are able to strengthen the areas we were weak in this last season and keep intact the team we had at the end of the season. With the return of our injured players I really like our chances for next year. If we sign Mario it gets very complicated. Keep it simple.

Just my opinion.

gafftop
01-19-2012, 08:22 AM
is this how a possible tag and trade with Mario works?
1. We place or verbally say we are franchising.
2. i guess Mario/agent does not like this because they would prefer long term contract.
3. We find a team that wants to sign Mario to a long term contract.
4. A trade is made without the franchise tag officially going into place and we get whatever without the franchise tag going into effect.

Is this what everyone is talking about when they say tag and trade? Is this sequence of events even a possibilty from a CBA perspective?

Blake
01-19-2012, 08:54 AM
I really wish NFL teams didnt make it impossible to follow along with their cap situation. They purposely withhold information about contracts to make it impossible to know what we have to spend. This is as much a tactic used against players as it is the fans.

I don't have all the facts, none of us do. But from the information I have gathered I believe we have room to sign Mario without compromising our team. The only question to me is do you save some cap this year for our crop of FA's next year.

TimeKiller
01-19-2012, 08:58 AM
If I'm GM and resigning Mario....it's because he's told me himself he's ready and willing to play 3/4 DE. He and Watt will be a monster combo and Barwin and Reed still get their time and probably rack up twice as many sacks. Oh and cut/trade Antonio Smith to make room for Mario's contract and playing time.

If not that situation and no tag/trade scenarios work out....let him walk. We'll take the savings and sign Reggie Wayne.

HOU-TEX
01-19-2012, 09:46 AM
If I'm GM and resigning Mario....it's because he's told me himself he's ready and willing to play 3/4 DE. He and Watt will be a monster combo and Barwin and Reed still get their time and probably rack up twice as many sacks. Oh and cut/trade Antonio Smith to make room for Mario's contract and playing time.

If not that situation and no tag/trade scenarios work out....let him walk. We'll take the savings and sign Reggie Wayne.

Nah, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't want to cut/trade a player that has proven he plays the 3-4 DE amongst the best in the league and replace him with a less durable and unproven at the position.

Unlike a few of these other cats around here, I actually like Mario and would like to see him remain a Texan. That said, I'm having a tough time trying to figure a way he can stay with us. Unless he has a realistic number in mind that would be good for both sides. Unfortunately, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think he'll be with us next season.

I surely wouldn't want to be the Texans FO this off-season. They've got a lot of work to do and decisions to make

infantrycak
01-19-2012, 09:52 AM
and will break our promise to give Foster a new deal this off-season.

Where do you get that any such promise was made to Foster?

Dutchrudder
01-19-2012, 10:58 AM
I really wish NFL teams didnt make it impossible to follow along with their cap situation. They purposely withhold information about contracts to make it impossible to know what we have to spend. This is as much a tactic used against players as it is the fans.

I don't have all the facts, none of us do. But from the information I have gathered I believe we have room to sign Mario without compromising our team. The only question to me is do you save some cap this year for our crop of FA's next year.

Actually there is a somewhat valid reason for it. The GM is not supposed to notify the coaches about performance incentive details so that there is no collusion between the HC and GM to play or not play a player for bonus reasons. If they made the contracts public then these details would get out and they couldn't keep up the semblance of ignorance towards the deal.

Example Vernon Gholston. He had a clause in his rookie deal to where he would get an 8 million dollar bonus if he got 1 sack or forced fumble. Just 1. Well he never got it and the team didn't pay him the 8 million. Could that due to the coach not putting him out there? Possibly, but they don't want the union to come after them for not putting a guy out there when he's a few snaps shy of an incentive.

TimeKiller
01-19-2012, 11:46 AM
Nah, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't want to cut/trade a player that has proven he plays the 3-4 DE amongst the best in the league and replace him with a less durable and unproven at the position.
Personally I think that's where Mario should've been this season anyway. He and Watt would absolutely destroy the interior but durability with him is a concern. Cutting Smith is only to counter balance signing Mario which I don't think will happen so it's kind of a moot point anyway. Antonio Smith does a lot of things well but I don't think he's a top 5 DE, especially since so many teams employ the 34 defense.

Plus if Mario is coming back, in my mind, it HAS to be as a DE. No way you would take Barwin or Reed off for Mario. Those guys pressure the edge way more than Mario ever did. So where would Smith play? Nose?

Unlike a few of these other cats around here, I actually like Mario and would like to see him remain a Texan. That said, I'm having a tough time trying to figure a way he can stay with us. Unless he has a realistic number in mind that would be good for both sides. Unfortunately, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think he'll be with us next season.

I surely wouldn't want to be the Texans FO this off-season. They've got a lot of work to do and decisions to make
I like Mario too but I never believed he was a game-changing elite end. I certainly don't think he could the best player on an elite D like the Texans are building. Just my opinion but I think his football skills don't equal his athleticism. I'm not trying to call him a workout warrior or a Vernon Gholston type, I just see more athleticism than anything else.

Dutchrudder
01-19-2012, 11:58 AM
Personally I think that's where Mario should've been this season anyway. He and Watt would absolutely destroy the interior but durability with him is a concern. Cutting Smith is only to counter balance signing Mario which I don't think will happen so it's kind of a moot point anyway. Antonio Smith does a lot of things well but I don't think he's a top 5 DE, especially since so many teams employ the 34 defense.

Plus if Mario is coming back, in my mind, it HAS to be as a DE. No way you would take Barwin or Reed off for Mario. Those guys pressure the edge way more than Mario ever did. So where would Smith play? Nose?

I like Mario too but I never believed he was a game-changing elite end. I certainly don't think he could the best player on an elite D like the Texans are building. Just my opinion but I think his football skills don't equal his athleticism. I'm not trying to call him a workout warrior or a Vernon Gholston type, I just see more athleticism than anything else.

Smith isn't a good cut this year, but maybe next. He had a 12.5 million signing bonus which is 2.5 million against the cap each year. 2 years left on his deal, so cutting him would cost the team 5 million this year instead of the 8 mill he's scheduled to make. That would save 3 mill in 2012, and 8 mill in 2013.

He's certainly overpaid given his production, but I don't think it's so much that we need to get rid of him. I would much rather have Smith at 3-4 DE than Mario though. Mario never seemed to get penetration through the G/T spot. He was always better going 1 on 1 with a tackle or TE.

HOU-TEX
01-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Personally I think that's where Mario should've been this season anyway. He and Watt would absolutely destroy the interior but durability with him is a concern. Cutting Smith is only to counter balance signing Mario which I don't think will happen so it's kind of a moot point anyway. Antonio Smith does a lot of things well but I don't think he's a top 5 DE, especially since so many teams employ the 34 defense.

Plus if Mario is coming back, in my mind, it HAS to be as a DE. No way you would take Barwin or Reed off for Mario. Those guys pressure the edge way more than Mario ever did. So where would Smith play? Nose?

I like Mario too but I never believed he was a game-changing elite end. I certainly don't think he could the best player on an elite D like the Texans are building. Just my opinion but I think his football skills don't equal his athleticism. I'm not trying to call him a workout warrior or a Vernon Gholston type, I just see more athleticism than anything else.

I don't agree with that. Mario was kickin rear while healthy and was also still learning the position. I have no doubt Mario would've even gotten better as the year went on. I dig your opinion though, cuz I do think Reed will get a lot better too. That's why I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if we weren't able to re-sign Mario.

So, I'm going to be satisfied either way.

dinkatoid
01-19-2012, 12:46 PM
I am ignoring the contract situation for a moment because I just want to point out why it would be a good thing to have Mario at LB (obviously the main bad thing is the money).

One of the biggest arguments I have seen (again, outside of the money) for not wanting Mario is it takes Reed and Barwin off the field. I want to point out that we are not saying putting Mario and Barwin as our starters mean they play 100% of the snaps and Reed never sees the field. I think having a third big time rusher would be huge, and allow us to run a rotation of Mario/Barwin, Barwin/Reed, and then Mario/Reed. By doing this, we always have one coming in on fresh legs after a few plays off, without sacrificing the pressure we can bring.

Basically, while they won't be on the field as often, they will be more effective when they are on the field. Just look at the Giants as an example of this, but they do it with their D line. Osi, Tuck, Pierre-Paul (though they do flex him out as a DT sometimes), and kiwanuka all rotate in and out at the DE spots and are always a terror because of it.

SW H-TOWN
01-19-2012, 02:22 PM
My personal opinion, we just cannot afford to keep Mario because we have to sign Brown and Foster. Right now they make nothing by NFL standards and are going to get huge contracts. The amount of cap space they are going to take up is going to be so much more than what they are are taking up now. Fosters cap hit this year is $525,000 and Brown's cap hit is $1,380,000. I know Brown is not a free agent until 2013 but you got to lock this guy up. This is not even mentioning the guys who will be free agents in 2012 and 2013 (Meyer, Barwin, McCain, Quin). I just don't think that we can afford to keep him.

infantrycak
01-19-2012, 02:32 PM
To date I have not heard any of Mario's team mates express that Mario needs to be on the team next year.

Conner Barwin just disagreed with you in his interview on 610 am as well as calling him the best defensive player the Texans have and salivating at having he and Mario start and Reed spelling them such as suggested here:

One of the biggest arguments I have seen (again, outside of the money) for not wanting Mario is it takes Reed and Barwin off the field. I want to point out that we are not saying putting Mario and Barwin as our starters mean they play 100% of the snaps and Reed never sees the field. I think having a third big time rusher would be huge, and allow us to run a rotation of Mario/Barwin, Barwin/Reed, and then Mario/Reed. By doing this, we always have one coming in on fresh legs after a few plays off, without sacrificing the pressure we can bring.

Dishman
01-19-2012, 02:36 PM
I am ignoring the contract situation for a moment because I just want to point out why it would be a good thing to have Mario at LB (obviously the main bad thing is the money).

One of the biggest arguments I have seen (again, outside of the money) for not wanting Mario is it takes Reed and Barwin off the field. I want to point out that we are not saying putting Mario and Barwin as our starters mean they play 100% of the snaps and Reed never sees the field. I think having a third big time rusher would be huge, and allow us to run a rotation of Mario/Barwin, Barwin/Reed, and then Mario/Reed. By doing this, we always have one coming in on fresh legs after a few plays off, without sacrificing the pressure we can bring.

Basically, while they won't be on the field as often, they will be more effective when they are on the field. Just look at the Giants as an example of this, but they do it with their D line. Osi, Tuck, Pierre-Paul (though they do flex him out as a DT sometimes), and kiwanuka all rotate in and out at the DE spots and are always a terror because of it.

After all of the injuries suffered this past season, having the the depth you described may be incredibly important. Besides, who is the next Barwin or Reed to step up if, Lord forbid, Barwin or Reed went down in the future? Sure, Braman is lurking, but is he ready to contribute like the other cats have?

gafftop
01-19-2012, 03:56 PM
After all of the injuries suffered this past season, having the the depth you described may be incredibly important. Besides, who is the next Barwin or Reed to step up if, Lord forbid, Barwin or Reed went down in the future? Sure, Braman is lurking, but is he ready to contribute like the other cats have?

I hear you.
At least we have starters at those positions.
Lord forbid our draft choices don't work out and we still have Kareem as our starting CB and Jacoby and Walters as our No. 2 and No.3 WR.
I say draft choices because if we sign Mario I don't think we have any money for FA's plus maybe we lose Myers I don't know. That is Lord forbid to me.

welsh texan
01-19-2012, 04:10 PM
I can't help but feel that Myers going to the pro-bowl makes that negotiation a little tougher. That said, I'd definitely say he is a product of scheme as much as anyone, he's all athleticism and isn't going to be anywhere near as good in a more conventional blocking scheme. Hopefully all parties realise that.

Brown is another one who I could imagine gets voted to the pro-bowl his contract year, he played well this year, his Madden rating goes through the roof next, people vote him in based on that. And then we pay for the privilege the following off-season.

I feel like I want to point out that I'm not opposed to either eventuality on the Mario front, if they do sign him, I trust that they have enough spare cash in the pipeline to keep hold of the rest of them, if they let him walk, then I'll be happy that they'll have the money to spend on the other positions of need in FA.

The only option I genuinely cannot see happening is any kind of trade, I just feel that boat has passed and I'm sure the CBA had mention of a lot of red tape getting in the way of such deals.

dalemurphy
01-19-2012, 05:41 PM
Where do you get that any such promise was made to Foster?

This preseason, it was fairly widely reported that the Texans brass asked Foster to prove it one more year and then he'd get a deal. Sorry that I don't have a source handy, but I'm sure some other posters can confirm this.

Rey
01-19-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't agree with that. Mario was kickin rear while healthy and was also still learning the position. I have no doubt Mario would've even gotten better as the year went on. I dig your opinion though, cuz I do think Reed will get a lot better too. That's why I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if we weren't able to re-sign Mario.

So, I'm going to be satisfied either way.

I think this is where I'm at...

I'd prefer Mario back, but if he's not then I'll live...

Rey
01-19-2012, 05:57 PM
This preseason, it was fairly widely reported that the Texans brass asked Foster to prove it one more year and then he'd get a deal. Sorry that I don't have a source handy, but I'm sure some other posters can confirm this.

I remember those rumblings, but if I recall that was more fan/media speculation than actual reporting and quotes from the Texans...

I could be wrong though...

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 07:37 PM
99, it is not about getting value for Mario; rather about getting what you can if it is decided to trade him. I cannot imagine anyone even Mario's biggest fan thinking we could get a top 10 first round for him. Most fans either love him or hate him. Few seem to step back & just give a fair eval. It is up to Robert McNair only to decide if Mario remains a Texan. Regardless of any offer, Bob could turn it down

If Mario is not a Texans next year, we get nothing.

We cannot sign & trade Mario. We cannot franchise Mario. If Mario ends up with another team, we're screwed (other than saving the money from signing him).

Mario is an UFA, if we get past March whatever without signing him to a long term deal.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, it is highly unlikely they would sign him without a big signing bonus (if I were his agent, I wouldn't allow it) then that bonus will hit our cap for this year.... all of it. & Richard Smith can't be stupid enough to let that happen.

The best deal for the Texans, is to sign Mario for 5 or 6 years. Manage his cap to $7-$9M for the next three years with a low salary so the signing bonus is actually his pay for the first three years.

Then we can either trade him or extend him when we get to the meat of his contract. Then you've got a conundrum. If Mario plays well enough that we can fleece another team...... why wouldn't we want that player on our team?

But, if we franchise Mario, his tag will be his cap hit. If we franchise him at $17million (20% raise) or $22million (I don't know where that number comes from) that is what he will cost against our cap. If we trade him that's $17-$22M of dead money.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, with a $9M cap number (I don't think it will be that high) that frees up $4M from his 2011 cap number. We can use that money for our FA wide receiver along with whatever salary cap increase there may be.

Lucky
01-19-2012, 08:06 PM
From Pasquarelli in 2006 (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2458925&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dpasquar elli_len%26id%3d2458925)
Thanks, KT. Someone give this guy some rep for me.

In the case of Williams, he received a $2.625 million roster bonus on what essentially is a five-year deal with an option for a sixth season. Under the terms of the contract, the base salaries for the first five years -- $275,000 (2006), $3.625 million (2007), $4.35 million (2008), $5.075 million (2009) and $5.8 million (2010) -- are fully guaranteed. That totals $21.75 million in guarantees.

But the guarantees escalate to $26.5 million next spring, when the Texans pay Williams $12 million to exercise their option for a sixth season on the contract. By exercising the option, the Texans reduce the salaries in Years 2-5 of the contract -- to $975,000 (2007), $1.575 million (2008), $2.3 million (2009) and $3.025 million (2010) -- and add the 2011 season at a base salary of $3.725 million. All the base salaries are guaranteed, bringing the total guaranteed money to $26.5 million.

Williams can void the final two years of the deal based on playing time levels and if he and the team reach certain predetermined performance levels, but the Texans then have a right to buy back the voided 2010 and 2011 seasons at a cost of $8.5 million. There are plenty of incentives, like $125,000 in most years for leading the league in sacks, bonuses for honors and playoff victories, and escalators that can raise the base salaries in 2010 and 2011 by $6 million and $9.5 million, respectively.I'm going to try and wade through these numbers to give my best guess on Mario's 2011 cap number.

Base Salary - $9.5 million
2011 Allocated Bonus for 6th year option - $12 million/5 years - $2.4 million
2011 Allocated Bonus for buyback of 2010 and 2011 - $8.5 million/2 years - $4.25 million

Total 2011 cap figure - $9.5 million + $2.4 million + $4.25 million = $16.15 million

A $16.15 million figure would lead to a $19.38 franchise tag. That's around 15% of the Texans total cap. That's just unrealistic to even consider using. So the dream of the Texans tagging Mario and trading him for a bushel of draft picks are just that. A dream.

I wish Alan Burge or Keith Weiland would weigh in to offer their cap expertise. As an armchair GM, I loved the work they did.

gafftop
01-19-2012, 09:21 PM
If Mario is not a Texans next year, we get nothing.

We cannot sign & trade Mario. We cannot franchise Mario. If Mario ends up with another team, we're screwed (other than saving the money from signing him).

Mario is an UFA, if we get past March whatever without signing him to a long term deal.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, it is highly unlikely they would sign him without a big signing bonus (if I were his agent, I wouldn't allow it) then that bonus will hit our cap for this year.... all of it. & Richard Smith can't be stupid enough to let that happen.

The best deal for the Texans, is to sign Mario for 5 or 6 years. Manage his cap to $7-$9M for the next three years with a low salary so the signing bonus is actually his pay for the first three years.

Then we can either trade him or extend him when we get to the meat of his contract. Then you've got a conundrum. If Mario plays well enough that we can fleece another team...... why wouldn't we want that player on our team?

But, if we franchise Mario, his tag will be his cap hit. If we franchise him at $17million (20% raise) or $22million (I don't know where that number comes from) that is what he will cost against our cap. If we trade him that's $17-$22M of dead money.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, with a $9M cap number (I don't think it will be that high) that frees up $4M from his 2011 cap number. We can use that money for our FA wide receiver along with whatever salary cap increase there may be.

Thunder,
Good post. We discussed this last year and if we kept Mario for 2011 this was the way it was going to work out one way or the other. Our best option trading Mario before the 2011 season has passed. I think we lose no matter what. I hate losing VALUE and that is what mario had last year. Now i agree that we have lost the option of trading him and geting something. Really bothers me that no matter what happens we do not get max value for Mario. I think if we keep him we may lose our chance to PU FAs at WR and CB or we lose some of our current players plus we take a chance of losing the chemistry we had at the end of the season. I have heard talk of letting Demeco go, maybe OD, to sign Mario. I have heard we need to target a position like WR in the draft instead of taking BPA. I think we targeted CB when we chose KJ. I still lean towards letting Mario walk if it is true we cannot trade him and using the cap space to keep and reward some of the players that got us into the playoff this year. PU a 1b wr and 1b cb and go into draft going after BPA. I still base half my decison on Mario not being able to stay healthy. As you can see this Mario issue really concerns me because I think this will be one of the most important decisions the FO will make. Their decision will have many implications for the Texans in the present and future.

We had a chance this year to see how the defense would perform without Mario and i think it performed at a high level. This obviously goes a long way in my leaning towards going on without Mario.

I know I keep regurgitating the same thoughts. I have been obsessed with this issue for almost a year. I am going to try and stay away from this thread until actual information arises. Sorry about putting y'all through my problem. thanks

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 09:27 PM
I agree with many of your views on Mario.
I agree if he is not signed before he hits the market he is gone.
I agree we do not have 17-20 mill to franchise him.
I still don't understand how you franchise and trade. ??? It would be a plus if that could be pulled off.

We were so close this year even with a rookie QB. I think with MS we are playing this week with an even chance to go to the SB. Just like last year before the season started I thought we needed a real 1b wr and a quality CB in addition to JJ. I think you go out and get two FAs (WR and CB) so you know what you have. It worked last year with JJ and DM. Don't hope you get these 2 players in the draft. Draft another WR because I think we need 2 real WRs besides AJ.

To do this requires money. I don't think we will have the money if Mario is here. So if we keep Mario we roll the dice on the draft AND Mario to stay healthy again.

I also have no desire to mess up the chemistry this team had at the end. I think the chemistry was there. You make all the changes necessary to keep Mario and there is a chance you lose that chemistry. I also think paying Foster now is important to the chemistry of this team.

Again we were so close with NO Mario. I don't feel Mario alone will put us over the hill. Sure you can say we will take care of those needs in the draft and maybe you will. Just think if you can handle those two needs in FA and then build with the draft. Draft BPA etc.

I kinda understand where you're coming from. We were so close without Mario, Schaub, & Aj. However, it is silly to me to expect to repeat what we did this year, by picking & chosing which guys we bring back.

Is Schaub good for this team? Yes, we are better with him.

Is Andre good for this team? Yes, we are better with him.

Is Mario good for this team? Yes, we are better with him.

I know "we are better with Mario" is my opinion but, to me, it works just like wanting a FA WR/CB because you "know" what you are going to get. I know Mario will work on this team, because I've seen it. I know he makes JJWatt, Conor Barwin, & Antonio Smith better, because I've seen it.

Granted, Jj Watt & Barwin has shown to be pretty damn good without Mario, doesn't change the fact that they were better with Mario & if you don't want Jj Watt to hit the sophomore slump, your chances are better if we had another playmaker on the line.

If we don't sign Mario, imo, an edge rusher becomes more important to this team in the draft & FA than a WR & those guys are not easy to come by. An edge rusher becomes the most important need because you have to worry about injury, you have to worry about the sophomore slump of both Reed & Watt, & you have to worry about other teams (especially in your division) getting better to account for your pass rush (either through the draft of FA).

We've got a great team, with a great locker room & adding a FA always stresses that. Look at GangGreen.... they were where we are & they went heavy on the FAs... then they didn't have enough balls to go around. That was a running team that all of a sudden needed a QB to maximize the talent they acquired...... true, that doesn't have to happen here, more than likely won't... but you won't know until you know.

I am not a "sign Mario at any cost" guy. I honestly do not care what the total contract is valued at. I do not care what signing bonus he gets, I do not care where he ranks, as far as pay, compared to other DEs, or LBs, or whatever. All I care about, is that his cap number comes down from $13 million, considerably. If they can't get his cap number to $9million or below, then I'll say they are making a mistake.

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 09:36 PM
Then we are likely to lose Chris Myers, not get a good #2 WR in free agency, and will break our promise to give Foster a new deal this off-season.

We were right up against the cap this year and aren't getting much cap relief. We will either sign Mario to a long term deal or we will let him walk. I'm pretty confident of that.

Ridiculous.

The cap will go up.

We were at (or over, I can't remember) the cap when we were chasing Asomugha, had no money to sign Jjo & Manning, but we found a way.

One thing I heard on the radio today, is that Demeco had an $8 million cap. He could restructure... & signing Mario to a long term deal would lower his cap (franchising should be out of the question).

Kdub needs to restructure or find another team.

The cap is Rick Smith's deal. Let them do what they do.

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 09:39 PM
Good news is Indy is near maxed out on cap and facing decisions about Manning and a few other key vets.Jax and Tenn typically don't make big FA splashes. So I think we're safe for in division.

If you're worried about Mario going to another team, then you've got to understand how releasing him is simply the wrong thing to do.

Sign him to a long term deal to lower his cap figure.

76Texan
01-19-2012, 10:18 PM
I really appreciate all of the work you guys put out and it's interesting "at times", but just like stats (which I used to love so much) I've come to "hate" financial numbers.
I've got a bunch of members in the extended family in oil and gas accounting (25-30 yr experience each), trust me, I've learned enough with all their shop talk, LOL!

I love to see Schaub in the playoffs for us just like I love to see Mario doing the same.

I hope Schaub comes back healthy.
I hope they work out the numbers with Mario.
But it's a business, and if the Texans have to part with Mario, I understand.

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 10:20 PM
Really bothers me that no matter what happens we do not get max value for Mario. I think if we keep him we may lose our chance to PU FAs at WR and CB or we lose some of our current players plus we take a chance of losing the chemistry we had at the end of the season. I have heard talk of letting Demeco go, maybe OD, to sign Mario.

The value is in keeping Mario.

It makes some sense, to let Demeco go..... if he's only going to be a 2 down player..... if it really is Wade's "scheme" to go into a dime package with an extra safety. I'd like to think we would have played more nickel this year if Demeco came into the season at 100%.

But, I have to believe this talk is more "hate motivated" because we don't see the cut Demeco options out there, it's all about Mario.

If we sign him to a long term deal, it's possible they can work his cap number to $5M... I don't know how, but they can. If you then cut Demeco, you can add his $8M to the $8M we save by lowering Mario's number & you have $16 Million to sign your WR & CB.

What would actually be better, would be to find FA numbers of similar WR/CB deals we are talking about to find out how much we need to "save" in order to sign them...... it would be nice to know how much cap room we would have when the cap goes up.



I have heard we need to target a position like WR in the draft instead of taking BPA. I think we targeted CB when we chose KJ. I still lean towards letting Mario walk if it is true we cannot trade him and using the cap space to keep and reward some of the players that got us into the playoff this year. PU a 1b wr and 1b cb and go into draft going after BPA.

We've already seen an issue getting a 2nd round pick on the field. We're talking about giving just about everybody on the team a "max" deal, it would be harder in 2012 to find a spot for even a 1st rounder.

I think we should get away from BPA & all that all together. I'd consider trading away our 1st in exchange for an extra 3rd, 4th, & #1 next year.

We need to think about what is best for our team & start acquiring draft picks like money. Save them so that we can make the moves we'll need to make to get the players we want to get, regardless where we are in future drafts.

Now I'm not saying that's what we should do, but we should consider it if we do not project a positive player for our team. I wouldn't draft an inside LB if he is the BPA at the 26th spot, if we decide to keep Demeco & with Sharpton expected back next year & I'm pretty impressed with Dobbins & Alexander.

There is no need for us to reach on a player/position & there is no reason for us to pick a guy just to pick a guy.

If Blackmon (or a reasonable alternate) is there, take him, otherwise, maximize the pick for our team & use it to get more picks & future picks.

I still base half my decison on Mario not being able to stay healthy. As you can see this Mario issue really concerns me because I think this will be one of the most important decisions the FO will make. Their decision will have many implications for the Texans in the present and future.

Mario has generally been productive for us when he wasn't 100% I think he played through many injuries, because he knew we needed him to & like idiots, the coaches allowed him to do so.

I do not think Mario is damaged goods. With a solid rotation, something we've never had since Mario has been here (both Bullman & Barwin got hurt early last season otherwise 2010 would have been the year Mario would have help & a rotation), Mario will be able to be very productive all year long, the same way Tate helps Foster stay on his game.

We had a chance this year to see how the defense would perform without Mario and i think it performed at a high level. This obviously goes a long way in my leaning towards going on without Mario.

So what do you do if Barwin gets hurt? Popped for Steroids? Comes to camp heavy? Mother dies? Get married? Or for whatever reason is unable to repeat this season's performance like so many "great" pass rushers (Mark Anderson) of the past?

When Mario is playing, he's one of the best in the league & has been so for 6 years. We should all cross all our fingers & toes, wish on Rainbows & light some candles hoping & praying that Barwin, Reed, & Jj can do it again.

Remember Cushing's sophomore season? Remember Barwin's?

I know I keep regurgitating the same thoughts. I have been obsessed with this issue for almost a year. I am going to try and stay away from this thread until actual information arises. Sorry about putting y'all through my problem. thanks

well, you know what they say about dumb questions..... you obviously weren't the only one thinking of it.

steelbtexan
01-19-2012, 10:31 PM
O/U

MW 10 games played next yr?

76Texan
01-19-2012, 10:41 PM
O/U

MW 10 games played next yr?

Health is always a concern, but it's also a concern with Schaub or AJ just the same, steelb.

TEXANRED
01-19-2012, 10:55 PM
Pay the man. That is what you do with him.

Goldensilence
01-19-2012, 10:58 PM
If you're worried about Mario going to another team, then you've got to understand how releasing him is simply the wrong thing to do.

Sign him to a long term deal to lower his cap figure.

Question is what does this long term deal look like? Closer to the one the Bears gave up for Julius Peppers? The one the Eagles gave Trent Cole? Right in between, John Abraham's deal with the Falcons was 6 yrs 45 mil and his contract was largely back loaded.

I can't help but wonder how much he could really command on the FA market considering he's been a double digit sack guy the past two years without much help and is going to get better. With that kind of knowledge does Mario and his agent hold out until he can hit the market?

Goldensilence
01-19-2012, 11:01 PM
I also wanted to add I don't think the question is whether or not people are a fan of Mario Williams or doubt what he brings to the team. I think really at this point its a question of keeping the cap space to remain competitive in the future.

I like Mario and what he brings to the team, but I don't want him back if it's going to cripple the salary cap situation for the team.

dalemurphy
01-19-2012, 11:02 PM
Ridiculous.

The cap will go up.

We were at (or over, I can't remember) the cap when we were chasing Asomugha, had no money to sign Jjo & Manning, but we found a way.

One thing I heard on the radio today, is that Demeco had an $8 million cap. He could restructure... & signing Mario to a long term deal would lower his cap (franchising should be out of the question).

Kdub needs to restructure or find another team.

The cap is Rick Smith's deal. Let them do what they do.

It's all about value when there is a budget (or a cap). Rick Smith, whom I have supported for 5 years and believed (even last year) to be a very good GM, will realize re-signing Mario at market value is poor value (just like he did with Dunta) and Mario will be playing elsewhere in 2012.

Prepare yourself for this, TK.

gafftop
01-19-2012, 11:03 PM
Thunder,

i think the Texans want to sign mario long term.
I don't see how the Texans sign him to a friendly contract at this time.
I think mario's agent knows the Texans can't franchise outright.
I think Mario wants to test the free agent market and I am not sure how the Texans can stop him from doing so.
The only way the Texans keep him is if he tests FA market and gets no big deal and we match.
Too much thinking a waste of time and energy.
Time will tell.

gafftop
01-19-2012, 11:10 PM
It's all about value when there is a budget (or a cap). Rick Smith, whom I have supported for 5 years and believed (even last year) to be a very good GM, will realize re-signing Mario at market value is poor value (just like he did with Dunta) and Mario will be playing elsewhere in 2012.

Prepare yourself for this, TK.

I had no real confidence in Smith until last year when he pulled the trigger on JJ ( and got Manning too boot) and did not play the fool waiting for Aso. I am hoping Rick sees it the same way I do. It seems to be a no brainer to me. But I also would have traded Mario before the season started last year and in fairness he might have tried. So who knows. Time will tell.

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 11:26 PM
I can't help but wonder how much he could really command on the FA market considering he's been a double digit sack guy the past two years without much help and is going to get better. With that kind of knowledge does Mario and his agent hold out until he can hit the market?

That's totally up to Mario & how badly he wants to be here. If Mario doesn't want to be here, I don't want him here.



I like Mario and what he brings to the team, but I don't want him back if it's going to cripple the salary cap situation for the team.

Agreed. I still expect Rick Smith to be frugal & put the teams interest ahead of Mario's.

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 11:29 PM
It's all about value when there is a budget (or a cap). Rick Smith, whom I have supported for 5 years and believed (even last year) to be a very good GM, will realize re-signing Mario at market value is poor value (just like he did with Dunta) and Mario will be playing elsewhere in 2012.

Prepare yourself for this, TK.

Except he franchised Dunta & gave him more money than he ever should have in one season..... not to mention they offered Dunta top 5 money.

Dunta isn't here, because Dunta doesn't want to be here.

If Mario decides he doesn't want to be here.... trust me, I'll be okay.

leebigeztx
01-19-2012, 11:32 PM
Thunder,

i think the Texans want to sign mario long term.
I don't see how the Texans sign him to a friendly contract at this time.
I think mario's agent knows the Texans can't franchise outright.
I think Mario wants to test the free agent market and I am not sure how the Texans can stop him from doing so.
The only way the Texans keep him is if he tests FA market and gets no big deal and we match.
Too much thinking a waste of time and energy.
Time will tell.

Why do people make it seem like they can't have a cap friendly deal. Philly,n.e., and other teams can always do it. Here is what I've posted a few times.

6yrs 72m with 36m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs. This hs been the trend and it keeps dead money off the books. Pretty simple too if you use simple math.

6m in salary and 6m due on the 1st day of nfl calender. After the 1st 3 yrs, they could cut him and have a $0 balance. If he's healthy and playing well, they could accelerate his salary into bonus money and that drops his salary cap impact.

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 11:32 PM
Thunder,

I think Mario wants to test the free agent market and I am not sure how the Texans can stop him from doing so.

The only way the Texans keep him is if he tests FA market and gets no big deal and we match.

Too much thinking a waste of time and energy.
Time will tell.

If Mario makes it to FA, we've lost him.

If I'm Rick Smith & I put a figure in front of him that insults him, I'm not going to let him insult me by looking elsewhere & expecting me to match it.

If Rick Smith is the GM he's supposed to be, he knows what Mario is worth.

I'd hate for people to start calling Mr. McNair cheap again, but I wouldn't pay Mario a penny over what my internal valuation says he's worth.

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 11:53 PM
Why do people make it seem like they can't have a cap friendly deal. Philly,n.e., and other teams can always do it. Here is what I've posted a few times.

6yrs 72m with 36m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs. This hs been the trend and it keeps dead money off the books. Pretty simple too if you use simple math.

6m in salary and 6m due on the 1st day of nfl calender. After the 1st 3 yrs, they could cut him and have a $0 balance. If he's healthy and playing well, they could accelerate his salary into bonus money and that drops his salary cap impact.

I think it's going to have to be closer to 6 yrs $90Million... (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=4969071)
The contract is worth $91.5 million with $42 million guaranteed. Peppers will make $40.5 million over the first three years. The number could increase if he makes the Pro Bowl, records a certain number of sacks or is defensive player of the year.

This guy had similar "issues"
And maybe, he'll shoot down a reputation for taking plays off, one that he feels is unwarranted.

I don't know how Peppers' deal is structured, but Mario's could take that $40.5M guaranteed in the form of a bonus.... say $24.5M in signing bonus & $4M salary over the first four years. His cap number would be $9Million (24.5/6 = 4 + 4 (salary)= 8). After the 4th year, there is still $8Million that would go against the cap as dead money if he's traded away. So if we trade him, we'll be "paying him" for 1 year after he's gone.

DocBar
01-20-2012, 12:01 AM
I think it's going to have to be closer to 6 yrs $90Million... (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=4969071)


This guy had similar "issues"


I don't know how Peppers' deal is structured, but Mario's could take that $40.5M guaranteed in the form of a bonus.... say $24.5M in signing bonus & $4M salary over the first four years. His cap number would be $9Million (24.5/6 = 4 + 4 (salary)= 8). After the 4th year, there is still $8Million that would go against the cap as dead money if he's traded away. So if we trade him, we'll be "paying him" for 1 year after he's gone.I really hope we can resign MW, but I also wanted us to throw the bank at Aso. Sometimes less is more. If it makes sense and we can resign our other FA's, do it. I'd rather have Foster, Myers, Dreesen and others than just MW.

gafftop
01-20-2012, 12:10 AM
If Mario makes it to FA, we've lost him.

If I'm Rick Smith & I put a figure in front of him that insults him, I'm not going to let him insult me by looking elsewhere & expecting me to match it.

If Rick Smith is the GM he's supposed to be, he knows what Mario is worth.

I'd hate for people to start calling Mr. McNair cheap again, but I wouldn't pay Mario a penny over what my internal valuation says he's worth.

I essentially agree that if Mario makes it to FA he is gone.

I don't think he will get Peppers money but who knows it only takes ONE team to think he is worth it. I think he is worth more to other teams than what he is worth to us.

How can people think McNair is cheap the money is not saved it will be used for other players.

The more I read your posts the more hope I have that Mario will not be signed.

I think the Texans might have talked to Mario before the season started to work something out and he said sorry I want to test the waters.

I really have to get off the thread.

leebigeztx
01-20-2012, 12:21 AM
Thunder, the bears took advantage of the uncapped yr for peppers. They gave him 30m in that uncaped yr. If they were to cut peppers right now, they would owe him 0. Just because mario is making 14m this yr doesn't mean that has to be a starting point.

dalemurphy
01-20-2012, 12:29 AM
Except he franchised Dunta & gave him more money than he ever should have in one season..... not to mention they offered Dunta top 5 money.

Dunta isn't here, because Dunta doesn't want to be here.

If Mario decides he doesn't want to be here.... trust me, I'll be okay.

Dunta went where the money was. Atlanta offered him significantly more money than the Texans. Also, Dunta's franchise tag year was in a year when we were well under the cap and his cap number was only about $8 million, less than 1/2 of what Mario's number would be.

Finally... and I think this is the clearest evidence. The Texans were willing to let Dunta walk instead of overpaying him despite their desperate need for quality cornerbacks and the shear lack of free agent CBs available in the market that year. If you recall, the only other noteworthy FA CB was Leigh Bodden... the Texans made an unsuccessful bid at him. Remember also, this was after the 2009 season, when the Texans were close to the playoffs and the pressure was mounting on this regime. Wise or not, the Texans willingly took a step back with their secondary talent/experience simply because they didn't see good value in the numbers needed to sign a guy that could actually help the team.

If that model has not changed, there is no way Rick Smith pays Mario Williams a contract that will exceed 10% of the teams cap figure. NO WAY!

Some people think the model has changed and would use the Manning and Joseph signing as evidence of that. I disagree. I think they found value in those free agents (the market was flooded with top level DBs this off-season). Essentially, the Texans signed Joseph for the same deal Atlanta signed Dunta for a year earlier. This year, for instance, the Texans should find good value to go with their needs in the free agent WR market, which is going to be flooded with talent. I believe the Texans will let Mario walk and use the cap relief to extend Foster and Schaub, sign Myers and others, and also go get a quality playmaker at WR.

One final point, this defense has an identity now. That identity is predicated on relentless effort and high energy. We can agree to disagree on just how good Mario has been but surely nobody with any intellectual integrity would argue that Mario is a relentless, high energy player. It's possible that Mario would've had 16 sacks if he would've stayed healthy this year. That's true. But, I think the collective defensive unit would've struggled to find their identity and would not have become the dominate force it is now, despite Mario's considerable, though hypothetical, "production".

thunderkyss
01-20-2012, 12:33 AM
Thunder, the bears took advantage of the uncapped yr for peppers. They gave him 30m in that uncaped yr. If they were to cut peppers right now, they would owe him 0. Just because mario is making 14m this yr doesn't mean that has to be a starting point.

The bears contract was based on the Haynesworth contract.

They restructured this year (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=6179140).

The Chicago Bears quietly restructured the contract last month of defensive end Julius Peppers to save themselves approximately $8 million in salary cap space for 2011, according to a league source.

With Peppers due a $10.5 million roster bonus for 2011, the Bears restructured the defensive end's contract on Feb. 23 to reduce his salary cap number from $12 million to $4.3 million in anticipation of the cap returning once a new collective bargaining is reached between the NFL and the players union.

Kaiser Toro
01-20-2012, 12:43 AM
This thread is going to be very funny to read in a couple of months. On the Palm scale it gets :mariopalm::kubepalm::vincepalm: :toropalm::facepalm::hankpalm:

Don King said it best, "If you cast your bread upon the water and you have faith, you'll get back cash. If you don't have faith, you'll get soggy bread."

dalemurphy
01-20-2012, 07:37 AM
This thread is going to be very funny to read in a couple of months. On the Palm scale it gets :mariopalm::kubepalm::vincepalm: :toropalm::facepalm::hankpalm:

Don King said it best, "If you cast your bread upon the water and you have faith, you'll get back cash. If you don't have faith, you'll get soggy bread."

Don't knock: French Onion Soup and Bread Pudding

steelbtexan
01-20-2012, 08:31 AM
Health is always a concern, but it's also a concern with Schaub or AJ just the same, steelb.

Didn't answer the ?

O/U 10 games, nice diversion though, the difference is AJ has already gotten paid. If Schaub gets hurt again I dont think that I would sign him to a long term high $$$$ either.

Their injury history is too great.

BTW, I would re-sign MW to a team friendly extention. Otherwise I would let him walk. Dont think the Texans hardnosed, playing with their hair on fire style of defense occurred with MW on the sideline by coincedence do you? MW has a history of taking plays off that dates back to his days at NC St.

The culture of this defense has changed and MW either needs to buy in or move on. How many plays did you see Watt take off this season? See the difference between the style of play between MW and Watt?

gafftop
01-20-2012, 09:53 AM
I tend to agree with you. It makes me sick that we will get nothing or worse we sign Mario to another big contract. I would be OK with a proven player and a high draft choice next year. That is better than nothing. The Patriots get incrementally better with each trade. It may not be a blockbuster trade but they do get better and younger. The overall talent level of the team is always getting better, plus they know talent that allows them to continually get better. The Texans on the other hand tend to make trades that makes no difference or more often makes them worse. Have they ever made a trade that improved the team? I know Schaub, but we did not give up an actual player. Have we ever traded a player and received a draft choice or player? i umderstand we don't have a lot to trade. Mario is about the only one that MAY have value that I would trade. Just rambling now not looking forward to this coming season.

This thread is going to be very funny to read in a couple of months. On the Palm scale it gets :mariopalm::kubepalm::vincepalm: :toropalm::facepalm::hankpalm:

Don King said it best, "If you cast your bread upon the water and you have faith, you'll get back cash. If you don't have faith, you'll get soggy bread."

KT,

The first post above was made exactly 9 months ago about one month into this thread and I don't think it is very funny. No matter what the outcome is on Mario I don't think I will ever find this thread funny.

I want the Texans to be the new Pats in the way that they stay at the top for a long time. I don't see that happening when we continue to miss on critical FO decisions. I will say last year other than the Jacoby decision which was part of the Texans decision not to do anything with the WR's, the above decision to keep Mario versus trade him which I agree would have been bold, maybe not picking up Brandon Lloyd for a 5th when AJ went down, and possibly still thinking KJ was the man, the FO had their best year to date. Here's to next year.

Goldensilence
01-20-2012, 03:51 PM
Dale,

I think bringing up Dunta's situation is fitting. No Mario hasn't been forth coming the way Dunta was and won't be, but it doesn't change the fact for the right reasons the Texans let Dunta walk after franchising him. I don't know what kind of numbers he'll be looking at but, I'd be willing to bet its worth more than the contract Trent Cole got at about 5-6 million a year. Maybe not much as Peppers mammoth contract, but I am willing to bet there's going to be some teams out there willing to pay in the 50-60 million range.

He's ideal for a 4-3 DE and he was able to get some reps as a OLB in a 3-4. If we were still in a 4-3 and didn't have the talent behind him to manufacture any sort of rush and having bookends DEs can drive a what pressure you get. Honestly, We'd have to throw a big contract at him. No question about it. Without him the the past we would've gotten absolutely no pressure on QBs at all. That changed moving to the 3-4 this year under Phillips. We WERE able to manufacture consistent pressure without Mario Williams. I am not saying it wouldn't have been better to have him out there, but it wasn't a necessity like in the past. I am not saying our depth would be as good without him, but we have capable starters outside of Mario at OLB. I thought when we drafted Barwin the guy was tailor made as a OLB as opposed to a 4-3 DE. The guy straight balled this year and I think he could get even better next year. I guess what I am getting at is Mario Williams is a luxury in this defense and it showed how well they played without him.

IMO I think it's inevitable Mario walks for a bigger payday elsewhere and the Texans won't skip a beat.


I think Mario would ideally like to stay in Houston, Just crunching the numbers right now I think you're right that some people need to prepare to see Mario in another uniform come preseason.

Blake
01-20-2012, 04:05 PM
I am well aware and have accepted that Mario might be gone next season. But I do think that the more likely scenario is that he stays. Houston is a playoff team. Houston has a defense where he can thrive, and was thriving. He will still get a large chunk of money. He doesnt have to uproot and move.

I will admit that I wanted Dunta back after he signed with the Falcons, but Dunta's level of play ended up not being worth his contract. I accept that. But Mario Williams is no Dunta Robinson.

The only thing I refuse to believe is that we let him walk. You franchise him, try to work out a deal, and worse case scenario use the market to drive up his trade value. There are going to be multiple teams who want his services. They wont want to just wait and assume they can offer him the most money as a FA, or that he would pick their city over the others.

Goldensilence
01-20-2012, 04:41 PM
I am well aware and have accepted that Mario might be gone next season. But I do think that the more likely scenario is that he stays. Houston is a playoff team. Houston has a defense where he can thrive, and was thriving. He will still get a large chunk of money. He doesnt have to uproot and move.

I will admit that I wanted Dunta back after he signed with the Falcons, but Dunta's level of play ended up not being worth his contract. I accept that. But Mario Williams is no Dunta Robinson.

The only thing I refuse to believe is that we let him walk. You franchise him, try to work out a deal, and worse case scenario use the market to drive up his trade value. There are going to be multiple teams who want his services. They wont want to just wait and assume they can offer him the most money as a FA, or that he would pick their city over the others.

I think at this point the best we can hope for is a tag and trade deal. However, those instances are pretty rare in the NFL. The last two that stick out are Cassell and Jared Allen.

Allen obviously wanted out of KC and Cassell was insurance to make sure Brady was coming back healthy. After getting cleared on Brady it was pretty clear they needed to unload his franchise tag number.

I'm not exactly sure how it works but if Mario is tagged and we intend to trade him can he sign the tender making it harder to trade him? Or even if he does sign the tender upon trading can his new team work out a new deal? Does the cap take a hit regardless?

SW H-TOWN
01-20-2012, 05:26 PM
Dale,

I think bringing up Dunta's situation is fitting. No Mario hasn't been forth coming the way Dunta was and won't be, but it doesn't change the fact for the right reasons the Texans let Dunta walk after franchising him. I don't know what kind of numbers he'll be looking at but, I'd be willing to bet its worth more than the contract Trent Cole got at about 5-6 million a year. Maybe not much as Peppers mammoth contract, but I am willing to bet there's going to be some teams out there willing to pay in the 50-60 million range.

He's ideal for a 4-3 DE and he was able to get some reps as a OLB in a 3-4. If we were still in a 4-3 and didn't have the talent behind him to manufacture any sort of rush and having bookends DEs can drive a what pressure you get. Honestly, We'd have to throw a big contract at him. No question about it. Without him the the past we would've gotten absolutely no pressure on QBs at all. That changed moving to the 3-4 this year under Phillips. We WERE able to manufacture consistent pressure without Mario Williams. I am not saying it wouldn't have been better to have him out there, but it wasn't a necessity like in the past. I am not saying our depth would be as good without him, but we have capable starters outside of Mario at OLB. I thought when we drafted Barwin the guy was tailor made as a OLB as opposed to a 4-3 DE. The guy straight balled this year and I think he could get even better next year. I guess what I am getting at is Mario Williams is a luxury in this defense and it showed how well they played without him.

IMO I think it's inevitable Mario walks for a bigger payday elsewhere and the Texans won't skip a beat.


I think Mario would ideally like to stay in Houston, Just crunching the numbers right now I think you're right that some people need to prepare to see Mario in another uniform come preseason.

The last two sentences are what I think. I really don't see how we can resign Foster and Brown, not to mention Myers and Barwin, and have enough cap space to keep Mario. I think he will get something in between the contracts Suggs and Peppers signed. The best case scenario would be to sign and trade him for some draft picks.

SW H-TOWN
01-20-2012, 05:30 PM
I think at this point the best we can hope for is a tag and trade deal. However, those instances are pretty rare in the NFL. The last two that stick out are Cassell and Jared Allen.

Allen obviously wanted out of KC and Cassell was insurance to make sure Brady was coming back healthy. After getting cleared on Brady it was pretty clear they needed to unload his franchise tag number.

I'm not exactly sure how it works but if Mario is tagged and we intend to trade him can he sign the tender making it harder to trade him? Or even if he does sign the tender upon trading can his new team work out a new deal? Does the cap take a hit regardless?

Another good point. I have no idea if the Texans would take a cap hit if they signed Mario and traded him for draft picks. Does someone know?

Brandon420tx
01-20-2012, 05:45 PM
I'm pretty sure he'd first have to A. Sign his tender, which he won't do if he knows we're trading him unless he likes the team we're trading him to. Then B. He has to sign a new contract with his new team or we take a big hit in cap.

Also, if we Tag him and the trades fall through (I'm pretty sure there is a fairly early deadline for this under the new CBA), we're stuck with the full tag unless we can get him a long term deal

Bulls on Parade
01-20-2012, 05:55 PM
Mario Williams is a big piece to this team. Connor Barwin mentioned on the radio show earlier this week that he has a good feeling Mario is staying. The guy is a flat out beast, strongest player in the league. You can't block him one on one.

I felt he was starting to dominate the Steelers and on pace for a 15 to 20-sack season when he got hurt. I'm excited for 2012 with Wade Phillips coming back and Mario Williams anchoring the defense at outside linebacker. So Brooks Reed goes back to the bench. What's the problem?

I love Watt and Antonio Smith on the edge. Nothing wrong with Shaun Cody at Nose Tackle. It's a luxury to go out and draft another beast at Nose Tackle but that's cherry picking what I feel is the best defense in the league.

msbbc833
01-20-2012, 05:56 PM
Homeboy is counting on getting a big new contract

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=212830

Naiirb
01-20-2012, 06:09 PM
Homeboy is counting on getting a big new contract

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=212830

More like he knows he will be getting paid whether he stays here or not. Thats a sweet car though

thunderkyss
01-20-2012, 06:11 PM
KT,
...maybe not picking up Brandon Lloyd for a 5th when AJ went down,

We had just signed Derrick Mason the week before. We don't know that Lloyd was available at that time. We're right at the cap.... I don't know that Mason cost us anything.

Kaiser Toro
01-20-2012, 10:18 PM
I wanted Mario in the 2006 draft, and would prefer to see Mario back in a Texans uniform. However, I have always been very frugal in my fandom when it comes to the cap - most notably the Carr wars and letting Dunta go.

Now with a taste of the playoffs, and the direction of the team, specifically on defense, we should invest to win now - this is a luxury we have not known. Mario will make a strong defense better, seamlessly, and will sew up the nucleus of a top 5 defense for the next four years.

Our other offseason needs are to sign Arian, which we have leverage with unlike Mario. He isn't going anywhere, without receiving value in return and we have a quality, hungry back up ready should Arian be moved or is a holdout. We will bring back San Marcos native Brisiel and Myers, and will not break the bank. We should draft a talented WR, which will not break the bank due to our draft position. I would like for us to draft a FB, OG/C, OT, ILB and DE.

In FA, bringing in a WR to compete for WR3 will be helpful. As others have noted Meachem, I believe he would be a perfect candidate to compete for this position, nothing more.

CB is not a need, Smith has invested picks and FA dollars on this position to keep us whole for a two year window. With a competent defensive coaching staff I am more confident the CBs will continue to grow.

2013 is all about Brown, Barwin, & Quin.

Smith earned his money this past two years in the draft and in FA last year, now we will see how good of a GM he is in signing his own with the Lombardi in sight.

jahunter221
01-20-2012, 10:56 PM
Look plain and simple resign Mario. Wade will have so many toys to play with and the defense will be sick.

TexCanada
01-20-2012, 11:04 PM
The more I think about this situation the more likely I think it is that we retain Mario. I think they will give him a large signing bonus and then back-load his contract.

JJ will have to be released. KW will have to restructure or get cut. Leinart will get cut. Allen will be let go unless he signs a very reasonable contract. 'Meco and couple of others may have to do some restructuring as well. I would say restructure with Schaub as well, but I don't think we will do that until he has returned fully from his injury and played a few games at least.

ObsiWan
01-21-2012, 02:26 AM
Homeboy is counting on getting a big new contract

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=212830

More like he knows he will be getting paid whether he stays here or not. Thats a sweet car though

hmmm.... I suspect he could have bought this one by trading in his 2006 orange one plus last year's money.

Speaking of Mario and cars, did you see this...?

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719695/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719696.php)

Mario donates five Camaros to HPD (http://www.chron.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719695.php)

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719698/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719697.php)
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719699/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719701.php)
http://www.texanstalk.com/Stats/Tracker.gif?plckUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.texanstalk.co m%2Fforums%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D8 0450&plckUserId=null&plckGcid=Pluck4&plckCurrentTime=1327130697133

dalemurphy
01-21-2012, 09:33 AM
The more I think about this situation the more likely I think it is that we retain Mario. I think they will give him a large signing bonus and then back-load his contract.

JJ will have to be released. KW will have to restructure or get cut. Leinart will get cut. Allen will be let go unless he signs a very reasonable contract. 'Meco and couple of others may have to do some restructuring as well. I would say restructure with Schaub as well, but I don't think we will do that until he has returned fully from his injury and played a few games at least.

Maybe they will fit Mario into the cap. However, every time you cut players with years left on their contract, the team takes a cap hit from the remaining years' signing bonus. For instance, Kevin Walter's deal runs through 2014, I think. If his signing bonus for the 5 year deal was $10 million then the prorated amount against the cap is $2 million per year. Cutting him with three years left, would escalate those three years into one. So, though his salary wouldn't count against the cap in 2012, $6 million in signing bonus money would.

thunderkyss
01-21-2012, 12:28 PM
Maybe they will fit Mario into the cap. However, every time you cut players with years left on their contract, the team takes a cap hit from the remaining years' signing bonus. For instance, Kevin Walter's deal runs through 2014, I think. If his signing bonus for the 5 year deal was $10 million then the prorated amount against the cap is $2 million per year. Cutting him with three years left, would escalate those three years into one. So, though his salary wouldn't count against the cap in 2012, $6 million in signing bonus money would.

In those cases, you have to take into account his cap hit for next year. His salary plus prorated bonus (or any bonus due this year). If that number is larger say $7 then we save $1M of cap space.

It may not be worth cutting him for $1M of cap space, but it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

Besides, KW can restructure so his cap number is $2 or $3 million. We can keep him as our #3 & Bryant Johnson as our 4th.

Rey
01-21-2012, 12:37 PM
In those cases, you have to take into account his cap hit for next year. His salary plus prorated bonus (or any bonus due this year). If that number is larger say $7 then we save $1M of cap space.

It may not be worth cutting him for $1M of cap space, but it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

Besides, KW can restructure so his cap number is $2 or $3 million. We can keep him as our #3 & Bryant Johnson as our 4th.

Is Jacoby cut or traded in this scenario?

As far as Mario...I think he'll be back and I think that this is all much ado about nothing. Manufactured drama.

Unless Bob McNair does something that he is not known for doing, he will hold on to Mario until it is just not feasible to do so.

gafftop
01-21-2012, 04:30 PM
just to get it on record (like I really need to) if they sign Mario to a big contract and we make wholesale changes to accommodate him it will set this Franchise back 3 yrs at least.

If Mario was a heart and soul player then I would maybe do it. Mario is a good guy but he is nowhere near the heart of the d.

I don't see even RS making that big a bone headed decision.

Blow this team up and risk being able to sign key players next year, sorry don't see it UNLESS no one wants him and we get him for say $24 mill 4 hrs and I really don't see that happening.

TexCanada
01-21-2012, 04:36 PM
just to get it on record (like I really need to) if they sign Mario to a big contract and we make wholesale changes to accommodate him it will set this Franchise back 3 hrs at least.

If Mario was a heart and soul player then I would maybe do it. Mario is a good guy but he is nowhere near the heart of the d.

I don't see even RS making that big a bone headed decision.

Blow this team up and risk being able to sign key players next, sorry don't see it UNLESS no one wants him and we get him for say $24 mill 4 hrs and I really don't see that happening.

I don't think anybody here wants to sign him to whatever contract he wants. It is going to have to be a deal that works for both sides, and that isn't an unreachable goal.

Mario has a lot of value for this team considering that he can play 2 positions really well for us. If we lost Mario we would have to go out and get an OLB and a DE to replace him. That could be done through the draft or FA, but it will definitely be a downgrade at those spots while also taking up an extra roster spot.

thunderkyss
01-21-2012, 04:50 PM
just to get it on record (like I really need to) if they sign Mario to a big contract and we make wholesale changes to accommodate him it will set this Franchise back 3 yrs at least.


How do you measure this? How will we know if you're right or wrong?


If Mario was a heart and soul player then I would maybe do it. Mario is a good guy but he is nowhere near the heart of the d.

I don't see even RS making that big a bone headed decision.

Blow this team up and risk being able to sign key players next year, sorry don't see it UNLESS no one wants him and we get him for say $24 mill 4 hrs and I really don't see that happening.


I think, you've been setting up a "Mario or anyone" scenario in your mind that nothing we do, short of cutting Mario makes sense.

You want a WR2, you want another CB.... if we don't get those positions, we've failed in your mind.. even though the team may not see those as the needs we see.

We spread the ball around pretty well, I doubt we'll have two 1000 yard receivers anytime soon. OD has always been our 2nd receiving threat. We may draft the next Andre two seasons from now.... an Aj Green, a Calvin Johnson, or pick up a Victor Cruz in UDFA. So who knows how important it is for the Texans' to get Andre's replacement on our roster.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to get a new WR on our roster.

Again, we didn't have the cap room to sign Asomugha last year, much less Jjo & Manning... but we did.

If we go into next season with Myers, Foster, Mario & a new WR2... how is that setting us back 3 years if we only lose Jacoby, KDub, & Jason Allen?

playa465
01-21-2012, 09:51 PM
Mario looks sickly small in the pics...he will be a Texan next year

badboy
01-22-2012, 10:58 PM
I think both Bob McNair & Wade Phillips will play a big part in re-signing Mario to a reasonable contract @ about $8m avg per year but with first two prob around 3-5m. I think less effort will be put towards Foster (and I really like the guy). Kubes will say Tate will step up in his 2nd year of actual play & the tag (1st & 3rd as I understand) will give us an out. I would love to have top 15 picks in those rounds.

Blake
01-23-2012, 08:50 AM
Its only a 1st now. Not 1st and 3rd.

Playoffs
01-23-2012, 08:55 AM
It says Wade wants to keep Mario.

I'll go with what Wade says -- he has a decent track record.

gafftop
01-23-2012, 09:06 AM
I think both Bob McNair & Wade Phillips will play a big part in re-signing Mario to a reasonable contract @ about $8m avg per year but with first two prob around 3-5m. I think less effort will be put towards Foster (and I really like the guy). Kubes will say Tate will step up in his 2nd year of actual play & the tag (1st & 3rd as I understand) will give us an out. I would love to have top 15 picks in those rounds.

Not sure what you are saying? Cap first 2 years for Mario 3-5 mill. Please explain in more detail if this is what you are saying. thanks

Basically bend over backwards for Mario and play hardball with Foster is that what you are saying? Mario wasn't even on the field at the end. Foster was the key player on offense.

Maybe McNair mucks things up but I hope Smith comes through.

Oh yeah we need 2wr not 1.

I think it will be easy to see failure in the Mario deal. Mario doesn't start for some reason. We are unable to sign some of our key players.

How do determine if Mario deal is a success?

thunderkyss
01-23-2012, 09:48 AM
We're paying Rick Smith & some other dude to manage the cap.

They'll get Mario & Arian & Myers & a 2WR, if that's what we want to do.

srrono
01-23-2012, 09:57 AM
The success of NYG tells me we need Mario the more guys you have to preasure the QB the better. Look at NYG secondary no one scares you its all about pass rushers.

thunderkyss
01-23-2012, 12:14 PM
The success of NYG tells me we need Mario the more guys you have to preasure the QB the better. Look at NYG secondary no one scares you its all about pass rushers.


I'd love to see Mario in a true DL rotation. I know people gripe about his injuries through the years, but he takes almost every snap when he's healthy.... & that can't be good for your health.

Jamison, by the way, looks like excellent depth on the DL, he & Bullman can still get pressure while allowing JjWatt & Antonio to take a breather.

badboy
01-23-2012, 01:51 PM
Its only a 1st now. Not 1st and 3rd.

I did not know he or Mario had been tagged with anything yet?

ChrisG
01-23-2012, 02:00 PM
Mario looks sickly small in the pics...he will be a Texan next year

he does look really small (compared to his usual size) in that pic, but i assume that is from being unable to workout like normal. Hard to lift weights when you torn your chest muscles.

Dutchrudder
01-23-2012, 02:03 PM
I saw Mario at PF Changs a few weeks ago and he looked like huge.

Goldensilence
01-23-2012, 02:43 PM
I think both Bob McNair & Wade Phillips will play a big part in re-signing Mario to a reasonable contract @ about $8m avg per year but with first two prob around 3-5m. I think less effort will be put towards Foster (and I really like the guy). Kubes will say Tate will step up in his 2nd year of actual play & the tag (1st & 3rd as I understand) will give us an out. I would love to have top 15 picks in those rounds.

I just don't see those numbers panning out. I think the best we could hope for is a contract close to John Abraham and Trent Cole's numbers.

With the league turning pass happy I expect the value of a guy who could can get after the QB consistently to jump even more. I think both him and his agent know how much he's going to score on the FA market and at worst he could be tagged for a one year huge payday.

I keep seeing these posts saying sign him to a long term deal and we'll be able to make it more cap friendly. I'm just not sure its the case, I have a feeling on face value it sounds nice but reality will be different.

badboy
01-23-2012, 03:07 PM
Not sure what you are saying? Cap first 2 years for Mario 3-5 mill. Please explain in more detail if this is what you are saying. thanks

Basically bend over backwards for Mario and play hardball with Foster is that what you are saying? Mario wasn't even on the field at the end. Foster was the key player on offense.

Maybe McNair mucks things up but I hope Smith comes through.

Oh yeah we need 2wr not 1.

I think it will be easy to see failure in the Mario deal. Mario doesn't start for some reason. We are unable to sign some of our key players.

How do determine if Mario deal is a success?Yeah, offer Mario a long term deal with $20-25m upfront that is prorated, then set his base salary at $3-5m first 2-3 years; $3m + $4-5 prorated bonus= 7-8m each for years 1&2 puts him way under the current cap hit & allows you to raise his cap hit later years when TV deal comes on. You then keep or trade him as you like and still initially clear millions to use on FA.

It is not about bending over for anyone or saying one player is much better than the other. It is possible that a healthy Mario could have had 20 sacks as he would have rarely came off field. I think it is about doing best for team. I think both players have about the same shelf life remaining although it is different to give a hit than receive one imo. I think Foster projects a better scenario to recoup draft picks than Williams. While both have backups that should succeed next year in Barwin & Tate, I think RBs are easier to find than DEs or 3-4 OLBs. I am a huge fan of Foster & think both will be on team next year. I'd play hardball with both & hopefully get both at great deals.

I agree we need two WRs but not certain yet where we get them.

Dutchrudder
01-23-2012, 03:09 PM
I did not know he or Mario had been tagged with anything yet?

I don't know where exactly it was discussed, but ChampionTexan pointed it out to me the other day that in the new CBA, RFA tags (which applies to Foster) have a max tender of just a 1st round pick. No more 1st and 3rd for RFAs. That puts tendering Foster in jeopardy, as a 1st isn't much to give up for a team like the 49ers. However it does come with a right of first refusal.

(1) Right of First Refusal Only: one year Player Contract with Paragraph 5
Salary of at least $ 1,200,000;
(2) Right of First Refusal and Draft Selection at Player's Original Draft
Round: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) the amount set
forth in Subsection (b) (i)(1) above, or (b) 1 1 0% of the player's prior year's Paragraph 5
Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player's
prior year contract are carried forward unchanged (this Subsection is subject to the
rules of Subsection (c) below);
(3) Right of First Refusal, One Second Round Draft Selection: one year
Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $1,835,000, or (b) 110% of the
player's prior year's Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b)
applies, all other terms of the player's prior year contract are carried forward unchanged;
and
(4) Right of First Refusal and One First Round Draft Selection: one year
Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $2,611,000, or (b) 110% of the
player's prior year's Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b)
applies, all other terms of the player's prior year contract are carried forward unchanged.

Non-exclusive franchise tender is worth two 1sts if the player is tagged and signed by another team.

badboy
01-23-2012, 03:24 PM
We're paying Rick Smith & some other dude to manage the cap.

They'll get Mario & Arian & Myers & a 2WR, if that's what we want to do.S.O.D. is Chris Olsen. He's the cap guru that got us out of all those dead money contracts.

badboy
01-23-2012, 03:39 PM
I just don't see those numbers panning out. I think the best we could hope for is a contract close to John Abraham and Trent Cole's numbers.

With the league turning pass happy I expect the value of a guy who could can get after the QB consistently to jump even more. I think both him and his agent know how much he's going to score on the FA market and at worst he could be tagged for a one year huge payday.

I keep seeing these posts saying sign him to a long term deal and we'll be able to make it more cap friendly. I'm just not sure its the case, I have a feeling on face value it sounds nice but reality will be different.It worked with Mario when he first signed and more recently with Demeco and AJ. You should remember the agent looks at two things basically A. over all dollar amount as he uses that to advertise his services to potential new customers even if the player often does not get 100% of the years B. and most important to player is money quickly into his hands and that is thru upfront bonus and guaranteed money.

My numbers earlier are for the base salary only not including bonus. Mario could get $3m, $5m and in third year jump to 12m for example as 2013 is the beginning of television extention.

badboy
01-23-2012, 03:42 PM
I don't know where exactly it was discussed, but ChampionTexan pointed it out to me the other day that in the new CBA, RFA tags (which applies to Foster) have a max tender of just a 1st round pick. No more 1st and 3rd for RFAs. That puts tendering Foster in jeopardy, as a 1st isn't much to give up for a team like the 49ers. However it does come with a right of first refusal.



Non-exclusive franchise tender is worth two 1sts if the player is tagged and signed by another team.Thanks, I thought it was two 1sts but saw another poster said CBA states 1 & 3. WHen I get time I'll research my copy. i want to have that staright in my mind. Regardless of what we tag Foster or Mario, we can negotiate less with another team.

GuerillaBlack
01-23-2012, 03:43 PM
hmmm.... I suspect he could have bought this one by trading in his 2006 orange one plus last year's money.

Speaking of Mario and cars, did you see this...?

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719695/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719696.php)

Mario donates five Camaros to HPD (http://www.chron.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719695.php)

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719698/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719697.php)
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719699/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719701.php)
http://www.texanstalk.com/Stats/Tracker.gif?plckUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.texanstalk.co m%2Fforums%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D8 0450&plckUserId=null&plckGcid=Pluck4&plckCurrentTime=1327130697133

Beware of these stealth cops on the freeway.

Dutchrudder
01-23-2012, 04:09 PM
hmmm.... I suspect he could have bought this one by trading in his 2006 orange one plus last year's money.

Speaking of Mario and cars, did you see this...?

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719695/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719696.php)

Mario donates five Camaros to HPD (http://www.chron.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719695.php)

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719698/3/628x471.jpg (http://www.texanstalk.com/news/gallery/Mario-Williams-donates-sports-cars-to-HPD-31817/photo-1719697.php)


That's the stupidest donation I have ever heard of. Why would you help the cops like that? Those cars won't save anyone's life, nor help them do their job any better than the cars our tax dollars purchased. He could have set up a scholarship fund for poor kids who are good students, or donate to something like Doctors Without Borders that saves people's lives daily through medicine, vaccines, food and clean water. Instead he's helping the city give out more traffic tickets. Whoopty doo...

Jaysol
01-23-2012, 04:44 PM
That's the stupidest donation I have ever heard of. Why would you help the cops like that? Those cars won't save anyone's life, nor help them do their job any better than the cars our tax dollars purchased. He could have set up a scholarship fund for poor kids who are good students, or donate to something like Doctors Without Borders that saves people's lives daily through medicine, vaccines, food and clean water. Instead he's helping the city give out more traffic tickets. Whoopty doo...

He probably got a couple speeding tickets and this was a way of preventing any future tickets.

Dutchrudder
01-23-2012, 04:53 PM
He probably got a couple speeding tickets and this was a way of preventing any future tickets.

Then do what everyone else does and donate to the 100 club! Although, he might not want to put the stickers on his Ferrari...

KA4Texan
01-23-2012, 05:45 PM
I do agree the money could have served the greater good elsewhere but it is HIS money, I'm not Obama so I don't care to dictate WHERE he spends it. Even though I hate tht he helped add to the evil that are stealth cops.

He probably got a couple speeding tickets and this was a way of preventing any future tickets.

For that price tag he could just get a lawyer to get them dropped, if he wanted to get out of tickets.

I know if my bank account were at his level (or even close) I would have a lawyer on stand by to cover my one ticket-able vice...... speeding. Can't say I'd buy a Ferrari though, I'll take the rumble and looks of good ole fashioned American muscle over an overpriced midlife crisis any day.

TexCanada
01-23-2012, 05:54 PM
We should be able to get something done here. With the cap likely going up in after next season it will make him a more trade-able asset even if it becomes impossible to re-sign the rest of our own FAs. Keeping him here for one more year and then trading him for some picks is a much better option then just letting him walk right now.

SAMURAITEXAN
01-23-2012, 06:15 PM
Then do what everyone else does and donate to the 100 club! Although, he might not want to put the stickers on his Ferrari...

Stickers on Mario's black car? That a Lamborghini. But, he may have Ferrari as well. He has enough money to own both.

Dutchrudder
01-23-2012, 06:29 PM
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/06/43/66/1719695/3/628x471.jpg

I just wanted to point out how ridiculous this is given that he's part of a defense nicknamed Bulls on Parade.

:kitten:

thunderkyss
01-23-2012, 07:02 PM
We should be able to get something done here. With the cap likely going up in after next season it will make him a more trade-able asset even if it becomes impossible to re-sign the rest of our own FAs. Keeping him here for one more year and then trading him for some picks is a much better option then just letting him walk right now.

How do you plan on keeping him one more year, then trading him? We would have to franchise him (that'll cost between $16M & $22M for one year). If we don't want that $22M to hit our cap, we'll have to trade him this year, as next year we'll be in the same situation as we are now, except I believe the new CBA doesn't allow us to franchise him again.

Also consider "they" are saying we are already $20M over the "projected" 2012 cap, we still need to sign Myers, Brisiel, & Arian.

SAMURAITEXAN
01-23-2012, 08:27 PM
No post pushed wrong key. Mods, please delete.

TexCanada
01-23-2012, 09:23 PM
How do you plan on keeping him one more year, then trading him? We would have to franchise him (that'll cost between $16M & $22M for one year). If we don't want that $22M to hit our cap, we'll have to trade him this year, as next year we'll be in the same situation as we are now, except I believe the new CBA doesn't allow us to franchise him again.

Also consider "they" are saying we are already $20M over the "projected" 2012 cap, we still need to sign Myers, Brisiel, & Arian.

By signing him to a long-term contract. His cap hit this previous season was huge, so we could presumably retain him and actually lower his hit by a pretty considerable margin. Even if it is more then we want to pay him, and more then we can afford in the future, signing him to a longer contract will give us more options then we have now. Rick Smith would just have to make sure he doesn't backload it so much that his contract is un-moveable.

I'm sure there would be a couple of teams willing to trade a pick or two for him after next season as long as his contract isn't completely outrageous. Plus, when the cap goes up after next season, Mario's contract will seem a little more reasonable for potential suitors.

thunderkyss
01-23-2012, 09:53 PM
By signing him to a long-term contract.

Right, that's the only way. I would have thought his agent wouldn't allow a contract with no signing bonus. It is the prorated portion that makes a player untradeable.

But, his rookie deal was with no bonus, which was probably why they didn't renegotiate this past off-season; Most likely Mario's people felt it was money earned.

I also just looked over the details of AP's 7 year $100M contract. No bonus. About $36M guaranteed though.


His cap hit this previous season was huge, so we could presumably retain him and actually lower his hit by a pretty considerable margin.

Considerable? His salary was $14 Million. I've heard rumor of his cap number being as high as $17Million.

What are you thinking as a "good" number?

Even if it is more then we want to pay him, and more then we can afford in the future, signing him to a longer contract will give us more options then we have now. Rick Smith would just have to make sure he doesn't backload it so much that his contract is un-moveable.

As long as Mario is willing to re-do his contract with his new team, it shouldn't be a problem. Any team desperate enough to trade for Mario, rather than letting him hit FA would probably offer him a large contract anyway.

I'm sure there would be a couple of teams willing to trade a pick or two for him after next season as long as his contract isn't completely outrageous. Plus, when the cap goes up after next season, Mario's contract will seem a little more reasonable for potential suitors.

I don't understand. If he's worth a quality pick or two in upcoming drafts, why is he not good enough for us?

TexCanada
01-23-2012, 10:41 PM
Right, that's the only way. I would have thought his agent wouldn't allow a contract with no signing bonus. It is the prorated portion that makes a player untradeable.

But, his rookie deal was with no bonus, which was probably why they didn't renegotiate this past off-season; Most likely Mario's people felt it was money earned.

I also just looked over the details of AP's 7 year $100M contract. No bonus. About $36M guaranteed though.


Considerable? His salary was $14 Million. I've heard rumor of his cap number being as high as $17Million.

What are you thinking as a "good" number?

As long as Mario is willing to re-do his contract with his new team, it shouldn't be a problem. Any team desperate enough to trade for Mario, rather than letting him hit FA would probably offer him a large contract anyway.


I don't understand. If he's worth a quality pick or two in upcoming drafts, why is he not good enough for us?

He is plenty good enough for us and I would love to see him play his whole career here. I was just imagining the scenario where we are unable to keep all of our FAs over the next few years. That has been the biggest argument for those saying we should let him walk, and I'm saying our worst case scenario should be keeping him for one more year and then trading him.

ArlingtonTexan
01-23-2012, 10:56 PM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2012/01/22/what-will-texans-do-with-mario-williams

This is weekly not talk.

ObsiWan
01-24-2012, 12:31 AM
That's the stupidest donation I have ever heard of. Why would you help the cops like that? Those cars won't save anyone's life, nor help them do their job any better than the cars our tax dollars purchased. He could have set up a scholarship fund for poor kids who are good students, or donate to something like Doctors Without Borders that saves people's lives daily through medicine, vaccines, food and clean water. Instead he's helping the city give out more traffic tickets. Whoopty doo...

Maybe.

Then again, maybe not spending money on these cars allowed HPD to keep a couple more officers on the street and not lay them off. And those cops who are still around maybe prevent a mugging or robbery. Or maybe these new "hot rods" run down a drunk driver or three and keep that person from killing someone on the road. So this donation could save someone's life.

And if you're not a speeder or drunk driver, what do you have to worry about? They won't be used to stop you...

Jaysol
01-24-2012, 01:03 AM
maybe.

Then again, maybe not spending money on these cars allowed hpd to keep a couple more officers on the street and not lay them off. And those cops who are still around maybe prevent a mugging or robbery. Or maybe these new "hot rods" run down a drunk driver or three and keep that person from killing someone on the road. So this donation could save someone's life.

And if you're not a speeder or drunk driver, what do you have to worry about? They won't be used to stop you...

but i am a speeder!

ObsiWan
01-24-2012, 01:19 AM
but i am a speeder!
:spit:
Then I recommend you make an investment in some of the most up-to-date radar detecting technology

...or perhaps purchasing a vehicle with a minimal radar signature
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRI6_E1baDzy3lE2nF5ryh5lowAt0NIe g167KuMx8m9HB3ghgJCbw

gafftop
01-24-2012, 09:30 AM
Is it now the consensus that trading Mario and getting something is not a realistic possibility?

Also is Mario 100% now and if not how will that effect everything?

Blake
01-24-2012, 09:38 AM
I think both Bob McNair & Wade Phillips will play a big part in re-signing Mario to a reasonable contract @ about $8m avg per year but with first two prob around 3-5m. I think less effort will be put towards Foster (and I really like the guy). Kubes will say Tate will step up in his 2nd year of actual play & the tag (1st & 3rd as I understand) will give us an out. I would love to have top 15 picks in those rounds.

Its only a 1st now. Not 1st and 3rd.

I did not know he or Mario had been tagged with anything yet?

They havent. I was just pointing out that the highest tender is a 1st, not a 1st and 3rd.

TexCanada
01-24-2012, 10:13 AM
Is it now the consensus that trading Mario and getting something is not a realistic possibility?

Also is Mario 100% now and if not how will that effect everything?

I think it has been generally agreed upon that our options for Mario this off-season are to either sign him long term or let him walk.

ArlingtonTexan
01-24-2012, 10:32 AM
Is it now the consensus that trading Mario and getting something is not a realistic possibility?

Also is Mario 100% now and if not how will that effect everything?

The idea of great picks for Mario was always people looking at the exception and stating it like the rule. There have only been a handful of tag and trade situation since the NFL went to some version of the current system. Is Mario close enough to a Jared Allen player where it is silly discuss? Yes he is making it worth of thnking about a possibility, but expectation that it absolutely should happen is the only thing unrealistic.

badboy
01-24-2012, 11:00 AM
They havent. I was just pointing out that the highest tender is a 1st, not a 1st and 3rd.Here is where I am not sure I agree with you CBA Article 8 page 34 Section 2 says:

Section 2. Negotiating Rights of Players with Less Than Three Accrued Seasons:
Any Veteran with less than three Accrued Seasons whose contract has expired may
negotiate or sign a Player Contract only with his Prior Club, if before the first day of the
League Year after the expiration of his contract, his Prior Club tenders the player a one
year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least the Minimum Active/Inactive
List Salary applicable to that player. A player receiving such a Tender shall be known as
an "Exclusive Rights Player." If the Prior Club has not by that date made the Required
Tender or later withdraws such Tender, the player shall be completely free to negotiate
and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate
and sign a Player Contract with such player, without any penalty or restriction,
including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal
Rights of any kind, or any signing period.

Dutchrudder
01-24-2012, 11:17 AM
Here is where I am not sure I agree with you CBA Article 8 page 34 Section 2 says:

Section 2. Negotiating Rights of Players with Less Than Three Accrued Seasons:
Any Veteran with less than three Accrued Seasons whose contract has expired may
negotiate or sign a Player Contract only with his Prior Club, if before the first day of the
League Year after the expiration of his contract, his Prior Club tenders the player a one
year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least the Minimum Active/Inactive
List Salary applicable to that player. A player receiving such a Tender shall be known as
an "Exclusive Rights Player." If the Prior Club has not by that date made the Required
Tender or later withdraws such Tender, the player shall be completely free to negotiate
and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate
and sign a Player Contract with such player, without any penalty or restriction,
including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal
Rights of any kind, or any signing period.

Foster now has 3 seasons accrued. He will be entering his fourth and will be a restricted free agent instead of ERP. RFA tenders is what I think SM is referring to.

Blake
01-24-2012, 11:29 AM
Here is where I am not sure I agree with you CBA Article 8 page 34 Section 2 says:

Section 2. Negotiating Rights of Players with Less Than Three Accrued Seasons:
Any Veteran with less than three Accrued Seasons whose contract has expired may
negotiate or sign a Player Contract only with his Prior Club, if before the first day of the
League Year after the expiration of his contract, his Prior Club tenders the player a one
year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least the Minimum Active/Inactive
List Salary applicable to that player. A player receiving such a Tender shall be known as
an "Exclusive Rights Player." If the Prior Club has not by that date made the Required
Tender or later withdraws such Tender, the player shall be completely free to negotiate
and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate
and sign a Player Contract with such player, without any penalty or restriction,
including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal
Rights of any kind, or any signing period.

Maybe I am missing what you are saying. But Cak does a good job of laying out the Mario situation as it applies to the new CBA and tender rules.

The old CBA had five levels of RFA tender:

First and third round (maximum) tender
First round tender
Second round tender
Original draft pick tender
Right of first refusal (minimum) tender
If you want to know what that all means, I suggest reading the article 'Deciphering the Texans restricted free agent tenders' that I wrote two seasons ago.

The change is that the new CBA eliminates the old maximum tender (first and third round compensation) and makes the new max tender only a first round compensatory pick if the player is signed by another team.

LINK (http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/restricted-free-agency-tenders-have-changed-new-nfl-cba)

GuerillaBlack
01-24-2012, 11:31 AM
Maybe.

Then again, maybe not spending money on these cars allowed HPD to keep a couple more officers on the street and not lay them off. And those cops who are still around maybe prevent a mugging or robbery. Or maybe these new "hot rods" run down a drunk driver or three and keep that person from killing someone on the road. So this donation could save someone's life.

And if you're not a speeder or drunk driver, what do you have to worry about? They won't be used to stop you...

They should get the drivers hogging the left lane while texting, or going slow in the middle while eating, instead of the speeder paying full attention. But this is for another thread...

Blake
01-24-2012, 11:32 AM
My question is, do poison pills still exist in recent contracts? Do NFL teams still employ them as a tactic to tear a player away?

ChampionTexan
01-24-2012, 11:40 AM
My question is, do poison pills still exist in recent contracts? Do NFL teams still employ them as a tactic to tear a player away?

They have attempted to remove them. From Article 9, Section 3(e) of the CBA:
(iii) Notwithstanding Subsections (i) and (ii) above, no Offer Sheet may contain a Principal Term that would create rights or obligations for the Old Club that differ in any way (including but not limited to the amount of compensation that would be paid, the circumstances in which compensation would be guaranteed, or the circumstances in which other contractual rights would or would not vest) from the rights or obligations that such Principal Term would create for the Club extending the Offer Sheet (i.e., no “poison pills”).

Goldensilence
01-24-2012, 03:52 PM
How do you plan on keeping him one more year, then trading him? We would have to franchise him (that'll cost between $16M & $22M for one year). If we don't want that $22M to hit our cap, we'll have to trade him this year, as next year we'll be in the same situation as we are now, except I believe the new CBA doesn't allow us to franchise him again.

Also consider "they" are saying we are already $20M over the "projected" 2012 cap, we still need to sign Myers, Brisiel, & Arian.

Of those three Brisiel will be a cheap contract(IMO expendable). Myers might command a bit more, Myers has played much better with getting better guard play. IMO that's where we need to be looking for improvement. I had hopes for Caldwell, but seems to be fading fast.

Where it's going to hit the fan is with Foster. The dude has earned his big pay day and he fits so well into this offense. Tate filled in very well, but I think in today's NFL you need two quality backs. We've got two right now. Pay Foster.

Far as tag and trade goes, ArlingtonTexan has echoed(or I echoed his sentiments) there's only been a few tag and trade deals worked out. I think it would be different if Mario clearly wanted out of Houston and on top of that another team really felt like he is the missing piece away from a playoff or SB run.

On top of that what are the risks of him outright signing his tender and we're on hook for a big cap hit?

Good teams know when to let players walk. I think this is going to be a big test for Rick Smith.

Honoring Earl 34
01-24-2012, 03:56 PM
Of those three Brisiel will be a cheap contract(IMO expendable). Myers might command a bit more, Myers has played much better with getting better guard play. IMO that's where we need to be looking for improvement. I had hopes for Caldwell, but seems to be fading fast.

Where it's going to hit the fan is with Foster. The dude has earned his big pay day and he fits so well into this offense. Tate filled in very well, but I think in today's NFL you need two quality backs. We've got two right now. Pay Foster.

Far as tag and trade goes, ArlingtonTexan has echoed(or I echoed his sentiments) there's only been a few tag and trade deals worked out. I think it would be different if Mario clearly wanted out of Houston and on top of that another team really felt like he is the missing piece away from a playoff or SB run.

On top of that what are the risks of him outright signing his tender and we're on hook for a big cap hit?

Good teams know when to let players walk. I think this is going to be a big test for Rick Smith.

I wouldn't even worry about winning the trade if it made the Texans better . Mario for Dwayne Bowe heads up for example .

DocBar
01-24-2012, 06:09 PM
Any option for trading MW probably ran out in week 5. The only likely options on the table are signing a cap friendly long term deal or letting him walk. I don't see him giving a hometown discount, but that could change depending on how his rehab is going.
If I were to do a palyer for a player swap, I'd go for Colston. ThesAints need D help and we need a WR. Win-win scenario. It ain't gonna happen, but it's such a nice thought.

gafftop
01-24-2012, 09:31 PM
If Indy can part with Manning I surely hope we can part with SuperMario. Smart teams make smart decisons. The Pats do it all the time. If we can tag and trade that is even better. Just don't get outsmarted and get stuck holding the bag. I could see us tag and then get stuck with Mario because no team will trade.

thunderkyss
01-24-2012, 09:41 PM
If Indy can part with Manning I surely hope we can part with SuperMario. Smart teams make smart decisons. The Pats do it all the time. If we can tag and trade that is even better. Just don't get outsmarted and get stuck holding the bag. I could see us tag and then get stuck with Mario because no team will trade.

I would agree the Texans screwed the pooch if they tag Mario.

I would also agree the Texans made a mistake if they sign a deal that averages more than $9M/yr.

Are you saying that keeping Mario for $2M/yr would be a mistake? That we should have parted ways instead? That it would have been smarter to let Mario walk than to sign him to a $2M/yr deal?

DocBar
01-24-2012, 09:46 PM
Break the bank for an injury prone DE? Umm, I think not. 1) Mario disappears in big games (in fact, one could argue he's never played in a "big game" in his collegiate/pro career). 2) Mario gets hurt... Alot. 3) We have a surplus of pass rushing talent. 4) We have gigantic holes to fill on the offensive side of the ball (WR2, WR3, TE, possibly LG). If we compromise our future for this guy, I will be sick to my stomach. Lets use this money, and sign Stevie Johnson.. I dunno, beats paying premium money to a man who does NOT deserve it.I agree with everything but "huge holes on offense". We have holes on offense but every hole on this team can be filled with BPA. No "need' to keep MW. He's a luxury for this team, and maybe a bad, indulgent one.
For the 1st "realistic" time in franchise history, this could be a truly meaningful draft and FA. What do the Texans do?

thunderkyss
01-24-2012, 09:53 PM
I agree with everything but "huge holes on offense". We have holes on offense but every hole on this team can be filled with BPA. No "need' to keep MW. He's a luxury for this team, and maybe a bad, indulgent one.
For the 1st "realistic" time in franchise history, this could be a truly meaningful draft and FA. What do the Texans do?

I'd love to get an Offensive guard & 2 WRs with our first 3 picks.

Thorn
01-24-2012, 10:05 PM
I agree with everything but "huge holes on offense". We have holes on offense but every hole on this team can be filled with BPA. No "need' to keep MW. He's a luxury for this team, and maybe a bad, indulgent one. For the 1st "realistic" time in franchise history, this could be a truly meaningful draft and FA. What do the Texans do?

While I hope something can be worked out to keep him, I'm beginning to fall in line with the bolded part of your post. Keeping Mario will will tighten the purse strings so much it will be difficult to get other players. I wouldn't even be saying this if it weren't for the fact that Brooks Reed stepped up and did such a good job.

gafftop
01-24-2012, 10:31 PM
I would agree the Texans screwed the pooch if they tag Mario.

I would also agree the Texans made a mistake if they sign a deal that averages more than $9M/yr.

Are you saying that keeping Mario for $2M/yr would be a mistake? That we should have parted ways instead? That it would have been smarter to let Mario walk than to sign him to a $2M/yr deal?

????? One year $2mill no strings attached no problem. what are u talking about?

gafftop
01-24-2012, 10:37 PM
Thunder,
Love your post on the other thread. I felt like I was cheating or a trader when I posted. Just didn't feel right.

thunderkyss
01-24-2012, 11:03 PM
[/B]

????? One year $2mill no strings attached no problem. what are u talking about?

I'm just throwing a dollar amount out there. Where do you think it should be?

gafftop
01-25-2012, 10:37 AM
just to get it on record (like I really need to) if they sign Mario to a big contract and we make wholesale changes to accommodate him it will set this Franchise back 3 yrs at least.

If Mario was a heart and soul player then I would maybe do it. Mario is a good guy but he is nowhere near the heart of the d.

I don't see even RS making that big a bone headed decision.

Blow this team up and risk being able to sign key players next year, sorry don't see it UNLESS no one wants him and we get him for say $24 mill 4 hrs and I really don't see that happening.

I'm just throwing a dollar amount out there. Where do you think it should be?

Posted a few days ago. Hrs supposed to be yrs. Obviously not going to happen. Even John McClain is beginning to see the light.

thunderkyss
01-25-2012, 05:21 PM
Posted a few days ago. Hrs supposed to be yrs. Obviously not going to happen. Even John McClain is beginning to see the light.

$6M/yr....

Ok. Anything more than that is "blowing up the team"?

gafftop
01-25-2012, 06:57 PM
$6M/yr....

Ok. Anything more than that is "blowing up the team"?

No, that is all I would pay him and to tell you the truth I would have to think twice about that amount because of his injury history, and motor. To actually sign him would severely hamper the Texans ability to sign new free agents and keep the ones they want in the next couple of years.

thunderkyss
01-25-2012, 07:07 PM
To actually sign him would severely hamper the Texans ability to sign new free agents and keep the ones they want in the next couple of years.

You keep saying this.... & I'm trying to quantify what you mean.

Sure, it is unlikely we'll sign Mario with a $6M cap number for 2012. But signing him to a $10M number is not & it does not "severely hamper" anything.

We could probably work out a $13-$15 million cap & still be fine.

Franchising him at $22M yes, that would hurt the team in 2012, but not the future

gafftop
01-25-2012, 08:23 PM
You keep saying this.... & I'm trying to quantify what you mean.

Sure, it is unlikely we'll sign Mario with a $6M cap number for 2012. But signing him to a $10M number is not & it does not "severely hamper" anything.

We could probably work out a $13-$15 million cap & still be fine.

Franchising him at $22M yes, that would hurt the team in 2012, but not the future

I hear you Thunder but i look at $15 million of the cap and I envision 1 or 2 FA's other than our own and $5- $10 mill to use on our FAs.

Do you remember one of my main reasons to consider Mario for trade before the beginning of the 2011 season was health concerns. For me those concerns have not been laid to rest.

Mario has potential but I don't think he has the motor. Again just my opinion. I would have loved to see him in the playoffs to see if that got him going.

thunderkyss
01-25-2012, 09:11 PM
Mario has potential but I don't think he has the motor. Again just my opinion. I would have loved to see him in the playoffs to see if that got him going.

I will say that I don't believe we know what we've got, until we see these guys in the play-offs. Schaub & Mario, they've yet to show the world who they are.


& I can't wait to see.

marks01234
01-25-2012, 09:11 PM
I have a sick feeling we are going to regret letting Mario go.

It goes against everything I've ever thought about running a franchise. Lock up your star QB, your LT and your DE. Never give a big, long contract to a running back.

I just hate having to give away an elite player. If we lose Wade next offseason, I think we could struggle to rush that passer moving forward.

No reason why we can't get a #2 WR in the draft. Same with an OG. We aren't going to find another Mario Williams in the draft.

DocBar
01-25-2012, 10:10 PM
I have a sick feeling we are going to regret letting Mario go.

It goes against everything I've ever thought about running a franchise. Lock up your star QB, your LT and your DE. Never give a big, long contract to a running back.

I just hate having to give away an elite player. If we lose Wade next offseason, I think we could struggle to rush that passer moving forward.

No reason why we can't get a #2 WR in the draft. Same with an OG. We aren't going to find another Mario Williams in the draft.You would be even sicker when you saw everything we had to lose by keeping MW. MW is a very good player, but he isn't a game changer week in and week out. He is a luxery that the Texans likely can't afford anymore. I'll take the players we have and double down on the players we're gonna draft over what MW brins to the table. He's injury prone and has a rep for taking plays off. I'll take Reed and Watt over MW any day of the week. All Pro talent coupled a non-stop motor trumps world class talent with a so-so motor every time.

Kaiser Toro
01-26-2012, 02:40 AM
For the record, missed games since 2006:
Andre Johnson - 19
Matt Schaub - 16
Owen Daniels - 16
Connor Barwin - 15
Mario Williams - 14
Demeco Ryans - 10

Corrosion
01-26-2012, 03:15 AM
You would be even sicker when you saw everything we had to lose by keeping MW. MW is a very good player, but he isn't a game changer week in and week out. He is a luxery that the Texans likely can't afford anymore. I'll take the players we have and double down on the players we're gonna draft over what MW brins to the table. He's injury prone and has a rep for taking plays off. I'll take Reed and Watt over MW any day of the week. All Pro talent coupled a non-stop motor trumps world class talent with a so-so motor every time.

After looking at the numbers .... Keeping MW isnt going to restrict the team from taking care of other area's .... Unless the numbers his agent wants are .... stupid.

And if they are willing to push some of that money to the 2013 season .... its almost a nobrainer to keep him.

If they can get him for $10m in base salary for next season thats a savings of $7m from his 2011 cap hit .... allowing them money to re-up with Foster , Briesel , Myers and Dreessen.

Couple that with the likelyhood of Ryans re-structuring his deal ($8.5M+ as it stands currently) , J.Jones and Lienart likely being cut ..... they have plenty of room to operate.

Resigning all of the above and adding at least one WR early in the draft ..... along with OL depth (maybe an interior starter in round 2) and we're happy campers.

Rackers is a FA and could likely be gone .... either a draft pick or FA kicker brought in , in the case of a draft pick that player would be significantly cheaper. I dont recall Rackers deal .....

The team can take care of those things that we all think need solving even while resigning MW.

Blake
01-26-2012, 10:36 AM
I just want to reiterate, YOU DONT LET GOOD YOUNG PASS-RUSHERS GO!

Top 4 position in the NFL.

QB - Passer
CB - Pass Defender
LT - QB Protector
DE/Pass Rush OLB - QB Killer

Lastly, yes, Barwin and Reed did a great job this year. Luckily they stayed healthy all year. I wouldnt anticipate both of them making it through 2012 without injury. People get can caught up in starters. "We have our 2 outside linebackers. Next!" To that I say its a good thing that the Texans pay attention to our depth and drafted Reed.

Goatcheese
01-26-2012, 11:36 AM
If you actually believe Mario Williams is going to sign for anything less than the other top DE/Rushbackers then you are living in a dream world.

This is the kind of contract he's going to get, and he may even get more considering he isn't a one dimensional player:

Peppers Six years $84 mil $42 mil guaranteed
Ware Seven years $79 mil $40 mil guaranteed
Freeney Six years $72 mil $31.5 guaranteed
Allen six years $73.26 mil $31 guaranteed
Suggs six years $62.5 mil $38.1 guaranteed
Johnson six years $76 mil $32 guaranteed

steelbtexan
01-26-2012, 11:51 AM
Over in the draft section

It says that the Texans are talking to Keenan Robinson at the Sr. Bowl. This does not bode well for re-signing MW.

Marcus
01-26-2012, 11:54 AM
I just don't get how some would consider Mario being a "luxury" considering the injuries that are going to occur.

Everyone says "Well, I can't wait till next season when we get everyone back healthy!". All it would take is one linebacker blowing out his knee, and you'll have everyone under the sun screaming, "why did we let Mario go?"

I think all this message board talk about letting Mario go, is just that . . . message board talk, with a dash of John McClain thrown in. I don't think they have any intention whatsoever of letting him go.

Goldensilence
01-26-2012, 12:04 PM
I just don't get how some would consider Mario being a "luxury" considering the injuries that are going to occur.

Everyone says "Well, I can't wait till next season when we get everyone back healthy!". All it would take is one linebacker blowing out his knee, and you'll have everyone under the sun screaming, "why did we let Mario go?"

I think all this message board talk about letting Mario go, is just that . . . message board talk, with a dash of John McClain thrown in. I don't think they have any intention whatsoever of letting him go.

This line of thought assumes the FO would do absolutely nothing in the draft or FA to shore up depth at OLB if we let MW walk. :jogger:

The1ApplePie
01-26-2012, 12:11 PM
Anthony Spencer from Dallas is an FA and has history with Wade. Not a bust but not an All-Star either. Very good against the run though.

Could be a cheap, less talented replacement for Mario. Could platoon with Brooks Reed opposite Barwin

badboy
01-26-2012, 01:08 PM
Foster now has 3 seasons accrued. He will be entering his fourth and will be a restricted free agent instead of ERP. RFA tenders is what I think SM is referring to.As he played in only 6 games first season, I thought it was not an accrued year?
EDIT: He has 3.
1. Accrued Seasons Calculation:
(a) For the purposes of calculating Accrued Seasons under this Agreement, a
player shall receive one Accrued Season for each season during which he was on, or
should have been on, full pay status for a total of six or more regular season games, but
which, irrespective of the player's pay status, shall not include games for which the player
was on: (i) the Exempt Commissioner Permission List, (ii) the Reserve PUP List as a
result of a nonfootball injury, or (iii) a Club's Practice Squad.

badboy
01-26-2012, 02:03 PM
I have a sick feeling we are going to regret letting Mario go.

It goes against everything I've ever thought about running a franchise. Lock up your star QB, your LT and your DE. Never give a big, long contract to a running back.

I just hate having to give away an elite player. If we lose Wade next offseason, I think we could struggle to rush that passer moving forward.

No reason why we can't get a #2 WR in the draft. Same with an OG. We aren't going to find another Mario Williams in the draft.Do you lock up your QB, LT or DE if their back up started in their place and did extremely well? If you can get basically same production from a younger backup at cheaper rate plus sign a starter from free agency and have 5-7 million left for your own free agents....

badboy
01-26-2012, 02:07 PM
For the record, missed games since 2006:
Andre Johnson - 19
Matt Schaub - 16
Owen Daniels - 16
Connor Barwin - 15
Mario Williams - 14
Demeco Ryans - 10Yep and for which of those do we have a very good back up that started & had same productivity we expected from the starter?:tiphat:

badboy
01-26-2012, 02:21 PM
If you actually believe Mario Williams is going to sign for anything less than the other top DE/Rushbackers then you are living in a dream world.

This is the kind of contract he's going to get, and he may even get more considering he isn't a one dimensional player:

Peppers Six years $84 mil $42 mil guaranteed
Ware Seven years $79 mil $40 mil guaranteed
Freeney Six years $72 mil $31.5 guaranteed
Allen six years $73.26 mil $31 guaranteed
Suggs six years $62.5 mil $38.1 guaranteed
Johnson six years $76 mil $32 guaranteedThen wh did he agree to his first contract with no bonus? It ain't all on the agent.

ThaShark316
01-26-2012, 02:22 PM
Yep and for which of those do we have a very good back up that started & had same productivity we expected from the starter?:tiphat:

None of them. Can't say that about Reed (I believe that's where you are going with this) until Reed plays a full season.

Mr teX
01-26-2012, 02:23 PM
For the record, missed games since 2006:
Andre Johnson - 19
Matt Schaub - 16
Owen Daniels - 16
Connor Barwin - 15
Mario Williams - 14
Demeco Ryans - 10


further proof these jagwagons in here don't know what the hell they're talking about. On 1 hand Mario, the pro bowl DE, is worth next to nothing & we should just let him walk b/c he's not worth what he may command (stupid argument in & of itself b/c you obviously are worth whatever a team is willing to pay you) & on the other, He's a "luxury" this team can do without. Well if he's a luxury, it implies that he's good enough to start & be a force on the team right? He can't be both. He's either good enough that we need to make sure we resign him or he's bad enough to let walk. Which is it Mario haters?

This whole thing reminds me of Schaub vs. Rosenfels. Some in here were clamoring for Rosenfels to be the starter over Schaub b/c:

-Schaub was always hurt
-Rosenfels arm was better...really?
-He has better command of the team based on the last few games of the prior season..etc..etc.

Then.............................Rosencopter happened. Now alot of the same people are dropping Schaub in as a top 10 qb & Rosenfels can't even beat about a Tavaris freaking Jackson for a starting spot in Minesota.

So yeah, You guys go ahead & put your eggs in a still unproven 2nd yr. guy in Brooks Reed basket...& if he goes down next year or doesn't perform well, what will be our recourse? Depth in this league is an important thing for a team too...signed, the 2011 Houston Texans.

ThaShark316
01-26-2012, 02:26 PM
further proof these jagwagons in here don't know what the hell they're talking about. On 1 hand Mario, the pro bowl DE, is worth next to nothing & we should just let him walk b/c he's not worth what he may command (stupid argument in & of itself b/c you obviously are worth whatever a team is willing to pay you) & on the other, He's a "luxury" this team can do without. Well if he's a luxury, it implies that he's good enough to start & be a force on the team right? He can't be both. He's either good enough that we need to make sure we resign him or he's bad enough to let walk. Which is it Mario haters?

This whole thing reminds me of Schaub vs. Rosenfels. Some in here were clamoring for Rosenfels to be the starter over Schaub b/c:

-Schaub was always hurt
-Rosenfels arm was better...really?
-He has better command of the team based on the last few games of the prior season..etc..etc.

Then.............................Rosencopter happened. Now alot of the same people are dropping Schaub in as a top 10 qb & Rosenfels can't even beat about a Tavaris freaking Jackson for a starting spot in Minesota.

So yeah, You guys go ahead & put your eggs in a still unproven 2nd yr. guy in Brooks Reed basket...& if he goes down next year or doesn't perform well, what will be our recourse? Depth in this league is an important thing for a team too...signed, the 2011 Houston Texans.

Amen.

When that tape gets out on Reed and he goes 5 games w/o a sack, then what? Ohhhh, I know:

"FIRE RICK SMITH" threads! "WE SHOULD HAVE KEPT MARIO!!!" threads, too. Color me worried if we don't bring Mario back.

dalemurphy
01-26-2012, 02:43 PM
further proof these jagwagons in here don't know what the hell they're talking about. On 1 hand Mario, the pro bowl DE, is worth next to nothing & we should just let him walk b/c he's not worth what he may command (stupid argument in & of itself b/c you obviously are worth whatever a team is willing to pay you) & on the other, He's a "luxury" this team can do without. Well if he's a luxury, it implies that he's good enough to start & be a force on the team right? He can't be both. He's either good enough that we need to make sure we resign him or he's bad enough to let walk. Which is it Mario haters?

This whole thing reminds me of Schaub vs. Rosenfels. Some in here were clamoring for Rosenfels to be the starter over Schaub b/c:

-Schaub was always hurt
-Rosenfels arm was better...really?
-He has better command of the team based on the last few games of the prior season..etc..etc.

Then.............................Rosencopter happened. Now alot of the same people are dropping Schaub in as a top 10 qb & Rosenfels can't even beat about a Tavaris freaking Jackson for a starting spot in Minesota.

So yeah, You guys go ahead & put your eggs in a still unproven 2nd yr. guy in Brooks Reed basket...& if he goes down next year or doesn't perform well, what will be our recourse? Depth in this league is an important thing for a team too...signed, the 2011 Houston Texans.

Depth is the reason to let Mario go. His cap number limits our depth.

Goldensilence
01-26-2012, 02:58 PM
further proof these jagwagons in here don't know what the hell they're talking about. On 1 hand Mario, the pro bowl DE, is worth next to nothing & we should just let him walk b/c he's not worth what he may command (stupid argument in & of itself b/c you obviously are worth whatever a team is willing to pay you) & on the other, He's a "luxury" this team can do without. Well if he's a luxury, it implies that he's good enough to start & be a force on the team right? He can't be both. He's either good enough that we need to make sure we resign him or he's bad enough to let walk. Which is it Mario haters?

This whole thing reminds me of Schaub vs. Rosenfels. Some in here were clamoring for Rosenfels to be the starter over Schaub b/c:

-Schaub was always hurt
-Rosenfels arm was better...really?
-He has better command of the team based on the last few games of the prior season..etc..etc.

Then.............................Rosencopter happened. Now alot of the same people are dropping Schaub in as a top 10 qb & Rosenfels can't even beat about a Tavaris freaking Jackson for a starting spot in Minesota.

So yeah, You guys go ahead & put your eggs in a still unproven 2nd yr. guy in Brooks Reed basket...& if he goes down next year or doesn't perform well, what will be our recourse? Depth in this league is an important thing for a team too...signed, the 2011 Houston Texans.

Dude,

First, I don't get where you get off calling people jagwagons (whatever the hell that is).

Second, the Schaub and Rosenfels debate doesn't fit. It's not a matter of people here clamoring for Brooks Reed to get the nod over Mario.

Third, I don't think I've ever seen a reasonable poster claim they HATE Mario Williams. There is some fair criticism though. A guy with his kind of physical attributes should be taking over games on the DL. We've seen that in flashes but nothing consistent. There's also questions about his motor.

Fourth,it's not that anyone thinks Mario Williams is worth close to nothing; its quite the opposite. We know his value is going to be high on the free market. I posted earlier in the thread about what contract values we should be expecting. I think Goatcheese did a great job of getting a total round up of what similar talent players landed with their big contracts. Honestly, its more about what cap hit we can expect and flexibility with the cap looking at next year's crop of FA to be players.

Fifth, I think most people here who are ok with letting him walk would LOVE to see him resigned long as it's not going to kill our cap flexibility. I think plenty of us would like to see if Mario can turn into a game changer now that he has other people to help get pressure on the QB and a competent DC.

Sixth, why do I keep seeing posts like yours assuming that if we let Mario walk it automatically kills our depth. Like we'd do absolutely nothing in FA and the draft to address the issue?

Your post was an all or nothing and sitting here...its looking like a lot of nothing.

Mr teX
01-26-2012, 03:04 PM
Amen.

When that tape gets out on Reed and he goes 5 games w/o a sack, then what? Ohhhh, I know:

"FIRE RICK SMITH" threads! "WE SHOULD HAVE KEPT MARIO!!!" threads, too. Color me worried if we don't bring Mario back.

People see JJ Watt out there hustling & making plays & think that's all it takes to be a force on the D-line...Hustling. The reality of it is he moves damn well, is strong as an ox, He's HUUUGGGEEE & has tennis racket sized hands. You combine those attributes with the motor & mentality he has & its deadly....as we saw for 16 games this season.

Reed, right now anyway, is not working with any of those tools. For the most part, No real exceptional speed, strength or bevy of moves tackles should worry about. Physically, he's not at all imposing. For all intents & purposes, he's just another guy out there. IMO, he's just benefiting from the havoc that Smith & Watt & to lesser degree Cushing are creating in Wade's system.

Throughout his time as the starter i saw nothing from Reed that screamed to me "Wow". Mario being able to hold on to big ben with 1 arm & a Left tackle on the other arm..& then eventually bring ben down for the sack on the other hand...not many guys in the league could do that...& you don't just dispose of guys like that.

badboy
01-26-2012, 03:25 PM
None of them. Can't say that about Reed (I believe that's where you are going with this) until Reed plays a full season.Actually, Barwin was Mario's back up. Reed played other side.

Link: The Texans played outstanding defense after Williams was injured. Defensive coordinator Wade Phillips moved Connor Barwin to Williamsí side and inserted rookie Brooks Reed on the opposite side.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/01/texans-linebackers-with-or-without-mario-maintaning-units-strength-will-be-a-priority/

11 1/2 sacks Reed had 6 in reg season + 3 1/2 more in PO.

Mr teX
01-26-2012, 03:40 PM
Dude,

First, I don't get where you get off calling people jagwagons (whatever the hell that is).

Second, the Schaub and Rosenfels debate doesn't fit. It's not a matter of people here clamoring for Brooks Reed to get the nod over Mario.

But it is & if you can't see that, i don't know what to tell you.

Third, I don't think I've ever seen a reasonable poster claim they HATE Mario Williams. There is some fair criticism though. A guy with his kind of physical attributes should be taking over games on the DL. We've seen that in flashes but nothing consistent. There's also questions about his motor.

You guys make it seem like we're talking about albert haynesworth here. The only people who have questions about his motor are people on Houston Texans messageboards. Those who are closet to him (his teammates & coaches) & are being objective when they watch him play don't have those questions. This is a guy who has played through injuries & still been the main sack guy for his team. This is a guy who has had to endure Dick Smith & Frank Bush as D-coordinators & still shined. This is a guy who had to rely on the likes of Peety Faggins & Kareem Jackson to cover their WR's for more than a nanosecond to be able to "take over games." Just b/c he doesn't jump around like a monkey every time he makes a play or have a notable silly ass sack dance doesn't mean the guy doesn't have a motor.

Fourth,it's not that anyone thinks Mario Williams is worth close to nothing; its quite the opposite. We know his value is going to be high on the free market. I posted earlier in the thread about what contract values we should be expecting. I think Goatcheese did a great job of getting a total round up of what similar talent players landed with their big contracts. Honestly, its more about what cap hit we can expect and flexibility with the cap looking at next year's crop of FA to be players.

& this is where the problem lies. Everyone's a GM / capologist now. Many of the same people here were saying that we shouldn't redo Aj's contract too...citing "well, it's his fault, now he has to honor the contract". The reality of it is, that's just not the way you handle your star players...you coddle those guys, unless they act like idiots..(dunta). & make no mistake about it Mario's a star player. I've been over to the colts messageboard recently & some fans over there are talking about picking up mario in an effort to help Pagano transform their Defense. He is worth what he is worth. The wildcard in all this is whether Mario wants to finish what he started here...noone can predict that. There are many reasons the Texans FO went on ahead & took him over Reggie & VY in 2006, 1 of those reasons was signability.


Fifth, I think most people here who are ok with letting him walk would LOVE to see him resigned long as it's not going to kill our cap flexibility. I think plenty of us would like to see if Mario can turn into a game changer now that he has other people to help get pressure on the QB and a competent DC.

He was already a game changer...with Wade's system & better players around him than he's ever had before, signs were pointing to him becoming even better. Why would you cash in your chips when you're on a hot streak?

Sixth, why do I keep seeing posts like yours assuming that if we let Mario walk it automatically kills our depth. Like we'd do absolutely nothing in FA and the draft to address the issue?

Well, for 1, there's precedent with this franchise to do just that...nothing. The 2nd thing is, noone you pick via FA is going to be better & cheaper than Mario if you choose to go that route. There is a tiny possibility that you could draft someone who could be better, but that person likely won't be coming until the 3rd round at best so chew on that for bit. what, you think that the combo of Reed/Braman or whomever is going to be better than Mario/Reed? The percentages are likely not in your favor imo.

Your post was an all or nothing and sitting here...its looking like a lot of nothing.

I try not to call folks names on here, but some on here bang on the same subject with half truths & flat out lies sometimes that it just gets annoying to read.

srrono
01-26-2012, 03:50 PM
Life without Mario if this comes to be Texans must replace that depth we had at OLB with Mario. I think Braman & Nading are ok but if Reed or Barwin get hurt I am not comfortable Braman & Nading starting. Does that mean Texans draft needs change with loss of Mario or is this a position they look to fill with a FA? It would be a back up OLB not a starter so maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

cbs1507
01-26-2012, 04:28 PM
I don't care if some people think he is expendable, I guarantee you that Mario Williams is our top priority in FA this offseason.

I believe his franchise tag is somewhere between $16-$18 million (some people reported $22 million). But people are ignoring one big thing...if he does not get franchised he will have to sign a long-term contract somewhere (if not the Texans). A long term deal will not give him $16-$18 million per year(let alone $22 million). It is not a stretch to believe we can get a long term deal done when you consider the top DE/OLB are averaging around $11-$14 million on their contracts.

Mind you his cap hit was $15 million this season and we have plenty of other FAs and cap casualties that will free up cap space.

badboy
01-26-2012, 04:29 PM
Life without Mario if this comes to be Texans must replace that depth we had at OLB with Mario. I think Braman & Nading are ok but if Reed or Barwin get hurt I am not comfortable Braman & Nading starting. Does that mean Texans draft needs change with loss of Mario or is this a position they look to fill with a FA? It would be a back up OLB not a starter so maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick.IMO yes it does. Beerlover, RMartin65 & I are presently working on presenting our annual joint mock. We will present one with Mario on roster and one if he moves on.

Kaiser Toro
01-26-2012, 04:33 PM
IMO yes it does. Beerlover, RMartin65 & I are presently working on presenting our annual joint mock. We will present one with Mario on roster and one if he moves on.

Always can depend on y'all to provide a platform for directional conversations in the offseason. Much appreciated. :texflag:

le14
01-26-2012, 04:35 PM
Regarding the cap figure for Mario if he is franchised, since I have heard alot of numbers thrown out, in my post in the Can the Texans afford both Mario and Arian;

Franchising MW would NOT drop his cap number but would in fact push it to $23m.

Its the greater value of the following -

The average of the top five salaries at the position of the player in question.

Or

100%+20% of the previous years salary.

In this case the greater value would be 100%+20% of the previous years salary as it is considerably more than the top five OLB's average salary.

I think teams will attempt to avoid this in the future by not backloading the final year.




I dont think they can afford that much when they have Foster , Dreesen , Myers and Briesel to deal with not to mention any outside FA's thye may want to bring in.

They have to get his cap number down in the 10m range for the coming year at most.

I thought that rule was for the older CBA and now it's going to a more formulated plan. The new way of formulating the franchise tag is based on other factors and a formula to account for it.

"In the past, a franchise tag was derived from averaging the top five salaries at a particular position from the previous season. The new formula is much more complicated and is formed by determining the franchise tags at that position over the last five years as a percentage of the overall cap figure in each of those five years."

Overall, I would picture that making tags a bit cheaper than we initially projected.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8247df3a/article/franchisetag-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

any answers regarding the salary and how this year's franchise tags will work out? I was under the assumption that it would be less than what we figured from the past CBA.

srrono
01-26-2012, 04:56 PM
Life without Mario if this comes to be Texans must replace that depth we had at OLB with Mario. I think Braman & Nading are ok but if Reed or Barwin get hurt I am not comfortable Braman & Nading starting. Does that mean Texans draft needs change with loss of Mario or is this a position they look to fill with a FA? It would be a back up OLB not a starter so maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

What do you guys think about Rob Ninkovich LB NE seems to be a hustle player going to be a FA would not think he would be expensive. NE never keeps thier FAs. I know NE def was not good this year but Ninkovich is always in the play.