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dalemurphy
12-21-2011, 07:26 PM
How many teams let go or trade their best defensive player/pass rusher under the age of 30. I see the team playing well defensively, but you can never have enough good rushers and williams was going to be a monster this season. Now what they can do is offer him more than woodley,hali,and dummervill money and stage it based on likely to be earned incentives. Like someone said before. 6 yrs that average 12m per with half in the 1st 3 yrs of the deal. 6 yrs 72m with 35 guaranteed in 1st 3 yrs. 1st yr bonus of 11.5,2nd yr 11.5, and 3rd yr 12m, after that it could be 6m salary and 6m roster bonus due on 1st day of the calender year. If he's healthy and playing well, its fair market after the 1st 3 yrs, if he's hurt alot and not producing, you cut him and move on.


Mario is not the Texans' best defensive player. Let's be clear on that right now. Their best defensive player is also the emotional leader of the defense... that's Brian Cushing for those of you who don't pay attention to this team.

by the way, the teams that have successfully maintained greatness are the very ones that make shrewd decisions like these all the time:

New England
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Green Bay...

all these teams have made a habit of letting talented players in their prime go in order to remain in good cap health so they can continue to build their championship-caliber teams instead of having it blow up just as it really got going. While I could give you a list of examples of teams letting their best pass rusher go (Tennessee- Haynesworth; Carolina- Peppers)... The real issue is cap prudence, regardless of what position it is. I think any shrewd football mind realizes that Mario Williams is an overpriced investment, particularly if he's playing in a 3-4.

dalemurphy
12-21-2011, 07:29 PM
do you really think mario williams is more valuable to this team than arian foster?

no, it's not even close.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 07:59 PM
all these teams have made a habit of letting talented players in their prime go in order to remain in good cap health so they can continue to build their championship-caliber teams instead of having it blow up just as it really got going. While I could give you a list of examples of teams letting their best pass rusher go (Tennessee- Haynesworth; Carolina- Peppers)... The real issue is cap prudence, regardless of what position it is. I think any shrewd football mind realizes that Mario Williams is an overpriced investment, particularly if he's playing in a 3-4.

I think you've chosen bad examples. Haynesworth was crap. Played his ass off in his contract year. The Titans got what they wanted, Haynesworth got what he wanted, but the Titans were the "smarter" franchise in this situation. Haynesworth did nothing before or after that contract year.

Peppers
Peppers received (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=4969071)$18.2 million from the Carolina Panthers last season. He turned down a four-year, $54 million contract offer from the Panthers last year.

Something else he has in common with Mario
And maybe, he'll shoot down a reputation for taking plays off, one that he feels is unwarranted.

If the Panthers had opted to tag (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4937632) Peppers, it would have cost them $21.4 million -- about $1.3 million per game -- which the team deemed too pricey.
I'm just going to go out on a limb & say the Panthers probably regret that decision. If they knew now, what they would eventually have in Cam.... they could be a play-off team.

Next year, when Peyton is back & Locker/Hasselbeck has a full training camp, Brit, & a fair draft I think the Texans will be more than willing to spend $18 Million if need be.

Or, they can sign him to a long term deal like Peppers.
The contract is worth $91.5 million with $42 million guaranteed. Peppers will make $40.5 million over the first three years. The number could increase if he makes the Pro Bowl, records a certain number of sacks or is defensive player of the year.

With a good capologist, a reasonable agent, & a hometown discount it may not hit us for more than $5M against the cap. This is by no means official, but these guys seem to believe Peppers first year only counted $4,080,000 (http://boards.chicagobears.com/forums/1/2943325/ShowThread.aspx) towards the cap.

Brisco_County
12-21-2011, 08:09 PM
His salary figure this year is somewhere between $14 and $18 million. Any player that is franchised is guaranteed a 20% raise.

Ever since the revised salary cap, I've suspected that Mario probably won't be a Texan next season. It'd have to be around $8 million a year to make space for other necessary signings.

As long as there are teams like Atlanta out there, he will get that big offer.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 09:20 PM
Marc and John did an interview with him on 610 2 or 3 weeks ago.

The thing that struck me was that he said that the Texans would be taking a huge cap hit even if they franchised him. He said that he didn't think that the Texans would want to spend that percentage of the cap on him.

Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured (http://blogs.bettor.com/Julius-Peppers-restructures-contract-to-give-the-Chicago-Bears-cap-space-a58071)it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

ObsiWan
12-21-2011, 09:31 PM
Or, they can sign him to a long term deal like Peppers.

With a good capologist, a reasonable agent, & a hometown discount it may not hit us for more than $5M against the cap. This is by no means official, but these guys seem to believe Peppers first year only counted $4,080,000 (http://boards.chicagobears.com/forums/1/2943325/ShowThread.aspx) towards the cap.

This makes the most sense for all parties involved to me. And based on this quote Mario doesn't seem like he's out to bankrupt the Texans. I seem to recall that his rookie contract was structured to be cap-friendly in the early years that resulted in that balloon payment at the end. There's no reason to think that he wouldn't be amenable to that strategy again.

According to the article (http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/32197/mario-williams-and-the-franchise-tag) that srrono posted in the "franchise Mario?" thread his franchise salary would be $16.56 million...
UPDATE, 4:57 p.m.: I now interrupt this post to correct myself and make the rest of it an example of what could happen in another situation like Williams' instead of his situation itself. As gbrussell points out below, a secondary provision of the franchise tag is that if it's not more than 120 percent of a player's previous salary, he gets that number instead. Williams has a $13.8 million salary in 2011. So his franchise 2012 tag number would be $16.56 million. That's prohibitive. A long-term deal would come with a much lower 2012 number. The Texans have to give him a deal or let him go. Back to a scenario that would play out if Williams had a reasonable number this season.

So in order to avoid impacting the salary cap to that degree ($16.56M is almost 14% of the total cap!) an incentive laden, cap-friendly deal should be struck. I think it will.

These $20-22 Mil franchise numbers that are being thrown around are simply ridiculous. I can't think of a single player, I'd pay that kind of money to - Manning, Brady, and Rodgers included.

PHAROAH
12-21-2011, 09:51 PM
Sign & Trade to pick up multiple picks to fill needs he will be to expensive plus Arian Foster & Myers. Plus next year we have to figure about extending matt shaub's contract.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 09:59 PM
So in order to avoid impacting the salary cap to that degree ($16.56M is almost 14% of the total cap!) an incentive laden, cap-friendly deal should be struck. I think it will.

These $20-22 Mil franchise numbers that are being thrown around are simply ridiculous. I can't think of a single player, I'd pay that kind of money to - Manning, Brady, and Rodgers included.

It does not need to be "incentive laden" it needs to be structured correctly. Since the salary cap era, total value of the contracts mean less than nothing. That's why teams get a pass (sort of) when they cut players prior to the contract runs full term.

Guaranteed money is important to the player as is the structure.

Peppers deal came with $46 million paid over the first 3 years. He might play under this contract for 4 or 5 years. If he's playing well, he'll probably ask for more. If he's playing like a 40 year old man, he'll probably be happy with his smallish salary & place on the team.

Front load the contract so you aren't a cap casualty later on. Back load a contract to "force" your team to renegotiate before the contract is up.

Like Mario's rookie deal. He & his agent gambled that he would be one of the top rush ends in the league by 2011. I bet they never expected to see Mario earn $16 million in one year. Normally, that would have been close to the bonus for his new deal... $20M, $25M for a 6 year $80M contract. The majority of that $80M paid in the first 4 years of the contract, but spread out over 6 for cap purposes. Then when you get to year 5, you restructure, more bonus money, spread over an additional 6 years.

Corrosion
12-21-2011, 11:10 PM
Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured (http://blogs.bettor.com/Julius-Peppers-restructures-contract-to-give-the-Chicago-Bears-cap-space-a58071)it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

If his cap hit is $6m .... there's no way you let him walk. No way in hell.

scourge
12-21-2011, 11:28 PM
The number is twice that which means franchising him is a practical impossibility.



Here is how a franchise number is now calculated:

(1) Summing the amounts of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 2011 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012 League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the 2007-2011 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for the 2012 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average")


So the owners got the numbers tamped down in the new deal. The players will get smaller percentages of a larger cap, but until there is a real cap boom, the resulting number will be lower than it has been.

The safety franchise tag, for instance, accounted for 8.8 percent of the $120 million salary cap last season, but will now be worth roughly 5.1 percent of the cap.

So what’s the difference between a tagged linebacker and end going to look like under the 2012 cap, expected to be about $125 million?

The defensive end number will be roughly 8.8 percent of the cap, down from 12.9.

The linebacker number will be roughly 7.3 percent, down from 10 percent.

So as an end, Williams would get an $11 million tag, and as a linebacker it would be $8.125 million. If the Texans choose to hold onto Williams with a tag, the sides could argue about the $2.875 million difference.



Didn't see anywhere in there that said anything of the previous 20% rule. Maybe I'm missing something...

Dutchrudder
12-22-2011, 01:03 AM
Didn't see anywhere in there that said anything of the previous 20% rule. Maybe I'm missing something...

I read part of the new CBA somewhere around this forum and I assure you it included the 120% rule.

burro
12-22-2011, 02:26 AM
As much as it will probably suck, I'm not expecting Mario to be a Texan next season nor am I expecting to get much of anything for him. He is what he is, which is a good player with injury problems and an unreasonable price tag. In the end, he's easily the most expendable "big ticket item" on our roster and I don't see him blowing up the league upon his departure. I wish he would just come to grips with his performance and take a pay reduction, but we all know the likelihood of that.

Lurvinator11
12-22-2011, 02:41 AM
I feel the best thing for the team to do is to sign him to a long term deal. That way it will not effect the cap space as much. It would also be the best case for mario as well. He already lives here and is a big part of the community. Now correct me if I am wrong, but if he did sign a long term contract, and he got hurt to where it was a career ending injury, would the texans still be paying him? I feel like we would be the only team willing to sign him to like a 7 year deal. That way he would be set in his career and and not risk signing a shorter deal somewhere else and then losing out in the end.

Wolf6151
12-22-2011, 04:20 AM
The figure that I've seen published several times was by John McClain and he said $20 mil. would be Mario's franchise price tag. That's way to expensive for an often injured player. More than likely we will not be franchising Mario. We can sign and keep him, sign and trade him ( my personal favorite), or let him walk and save lots of money to be used in FA.

Blake
12-22-2011, 07:13 AM
Sign him to a long term deal. You can NEVER have too many pass rushers. Depth is a good thing and you are seeing why this year.

dalemurphy
12-22-2011, 07:37 AM
Sign him to a long term deal. You can NEVER have too many pass rushers. Depth is a good thing and you are seeing why this year.

Nothing limits depth on a football team more than giving "star" players that can't stay health huge signing bonuses and long term deals. Anyone that believes depth is crucial would be a proponent of letting Mario walk and using those funds on three or four quality players.

gafftop
12-22-2011, 08:58 AM
Franchise him only if we can trade him to a team and get compensation.

If not let his ass walk and spend that money on players that are worth it. Mario has proven for years that he "isn't" worth anywhere close to what he's been paid.

I agree. There may be some team out there that may make a deal. Don't look for the Pats though to do this they are way to smart.

That we are having to look at this issue is the reason I don't feel we have a real brain trust in the FO. This issue was brought up back in April of this year. See below.


Re: The Mario Issue, Let's look at it in another way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gafftop
Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion. Above posted over 8 months ago.

"Here we are almost exactly 8 months from this post. Took a lot of negative hits from this thread I started. Here we are now and where do we stand? It was my feeling that no matter what happened we would be in a bad place with Mario once the season was over.

I am reading on other threads that we trade Mario now for this and/or that. Someone please explain how we do this? Isn't he a free agent? I think we missed our chance to get something of value for MW. I still thinks he WALKS with us getting nothing but the PITY pick/consolation pick/Dunta pick etc.

Why do I think we get nothing? I don't think we can " non-exclusive " franchise and expect anyone to offer anything for Mario if it means them giving up high round draft choices. I don't think we outright franchise him because he is not worth what we would need to pay him. We can transition tag him but correct me if I am wrong, if we don't match we get nothing.

Anyone watch the game last night. Anyone see Aldon Smith. Anyone think Mario is better. I am sure there are.

Somebody make me feel better and explain how we come out of this deal whole.

I can't help but think where this team would be now if a trade would have been made and we had a real 1b WR and another real CB.

The great teams stay great by always increasing overall talent VALUE. We will lose overall value if we keep Mario or we lose overall value if we let Mario walk.

I really am ecstatic with the Texans season. It may not seem like that but I am. I just have this feeling that we could be a whole lot better if a trade was made. "


At this time we are choosing between 2 bad outcomes. The best outcome has already passed us by.

I know you are probably tired of hearing what I have to say but it is situations like the above and how you deal with them that mold a franchise.

Mr. White
12-22-2011, 09:30 AM
Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

The difference is that Mario acted like it didn't really bother him. He said that he knows it's a business and that even if he gets franchised then it's still a lot of money. Dunta was a different case. He let it be known far in advance that he didn't want to be franchised.

BTW...the podcast for the interview is on this page (http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/houston-texans-official-podcast/id279409851). 25 minutes long. Scroll down to 12/13. It's #28 on the list now, even though I'm sure it'll go further down as they put up new podcasts.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured (http://blogs.bettor.com/Julius-Peppers-restructures-contract-to-give-the-Chicago-Bears-cap-space-a58071)it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

Just to go on record, I've been a huge fan of the guy ever since he got here. Absolutely loved the way he looked in the 3-4.

The problem is that I think that he's a luxury that we can't afford anymore. I think re-signing Foster is a bigger priority and rather them bring in another stud at WR.

Blake
12-22-2011, 09:40 AM
Nothing limits depth on a football team more than giving "star" players that can't stay health huge signing bonuses and long term deals. Anyone that believes depth is crucial would be a proponent of letting Mario walk and using those funds on three or four quality players.

Mario has started 16/16 games his first 4 season. Last season he started 13/16 and this year obviously 5/16. Thats 82 starts out of 96 possible starts.

If you want to label him as a player that cant stay healthy, then you have to label 95% of the league stars as players that cant stay healthy.

Obviously I would rather franchise him and trade him, but If my options are to sign him to a long term deal, or let him walk for a comp pick, you beet your boots I am signing him.

Davin Joseph who was drafted the same year in the first round was just given a seven-year, $53 million contract including $19 million guaranteed. For a guard that is alot of money.

He also has only started 82/96 games. But I guess the Buc's dont care about depth either.

dalemurphy
12-22-2011, 09:41 AM
Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured (http://blogs.bettor.com/Julius-Peppers-restructures-contract-to-give-the-Chicago-Bears-cap-space-a58071)it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.

So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?

You are talking about mortgaging the future. That cap number will escalate until it poses a very big problem. By the way, you can't simply cut a player three years into a 7 year deal like one we are talking about. If Mario gets a $40 million signing bonus for a 7 year deal, cutting or trading Mario after three years would create a cap hit in year four of about $24 million. Keeping a player in the 4th year of a deal that big would mean the cap number would have escalating well north of $10 million and climbing each year afterwards. Some people are content mortgaging the future for a couple years of prosperity. I hate that idea. Also, I don't think Mario is the kind of irreplacable difference-maker that would make that kind of financial compromise even a logical consideration even if he was likely to be healthy for the contract.

amazing80
12-22-2011, 11:09 AM
Dont forget we extended Andre and his deal escalates as we go forward......Doubt we keep Mario, just not enough money for everyone

Only way I see us keeping him is getting rid of Ryans (trade) and picking up someone to fill in at ILB...which I doubt happens

badboy
12-22-2011, 11:23 AM
I would franchise him. See if he can stay healthy for a year, and if he can, what type of numbers he puts up over a full 16 game season in this system. At this point, we could let him walk and see him blow up, or sign him to a monster deal and see him continue to be plagued by injuries and/or surpassed by the other guys on the roster. I'll pay an extra penalty up front to take an extra year to make that decision vs. making the wrong decision right now.I think in the games Mario played he showed what he could do as he avg'd a sack per game. I don't want to pay him 120% of his salary regardless of what that is.

badboy
12-22-2011, 11:37 AM
Depending on whom you believe, Mario's tag number will be between $17 million and $22 million. HE WILL NOT BE FRANCHISED. He will be re-signed to a monster deal or allowed to walk. Those are the only two viable options.I tend to agree as I said in the post you quoted that he will sign BUT if my source is correct and his salary is $14m, then extra $3m is not impossible especially if Smith thinks he can move him in a trade.

badboy
12-22-2011, 11:41 AM
Ever since the revised salary cap, I've suspected that Mario probably won't be a Texan next season. It'd have to be around $8 million a year to make space for other necessary signings.

As long as there are teams like Atlanta out there, he will get that big offer.It is not about the salary base as that can be manipulated. It is about the upfront (bonus)money. He adds that to his checking account immediately without any wait. He received bad advice from his agent on his first deal (no bonus) & will try to make that up. That does not rule out Texans.

badboy
12-22-2011, 11:45 AM
Let's hope they don't. The Texans should have learned with Dunta.... it's not worth it.

BUt.... it's not our only option, definitely not our best option. Peppers signed a $94M contract with the Bears & restructured (http://blogs.bettor.com/Julius-Peppers-restructures-contract-to-give-the-Chicago-Bears-cap-space-a58071)it for the 2011 season bringing his cap hit below $5M.
So the question is, if you could sign Mario for less than $6M against the cap (don't worry about the real numbers, for this conversation, the only thing that matters is his cap number)?

if you're against signing Mario regardless of the cap number (not you in particular), can we drop the facade & get on with that (not signing Mario regardless) conversation?TK right on target. Bullseye! If Mario wants to go elsewhere, I think for McNair, Mario would allow Smith to work a trade.

badboy
12-22-2011, 11:49 AM
As much as it will probably suck, I'm not expecting Mario to be a Texan next season nor am I expecting to get much of anything for him. He is what he is, which is a good player with injury problems and an unreasonable price tag. In the end, he's easily the most expendable "big ticket item" on our roster and I don't see him blowing up the league upon his departure. I wish he would just come to grips with his performance and take a pay reduction, but we all know the likelihood of that.Mario was averaging a sack per game as OLBand he was a very good if not superstar DE. If he "comes to grips with his performance" we will not be able to afford him.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 11:54 AM
Just to go on record, I've been a huge fan of the guy ever since he got here. Absolutely loved the way he looked in the 3-4.

The problem is that I think that he's a luxury that we can't afford anymore. I think re-signing Foster is a bigger priority and rather them bring in another stud at WR.

If Smith does his job, we can have both Mario & Arian. Like Aj, Mario sounds like he wants to be a Texan forever, meaning a long term deal, 6 to 7 years is not out of the question, so we can spread the guaranteed money & signing bonus over a long period of time.

Don't think it has to be one or the other. Think about it as Rick Smith getting off his ass & putting pen to paper.

badboy
12-22-2011, 12:00 PM
I feel the best thing for the team to do is to sign him to a long term deal. That way it will not effect the cap space as much. It would also be the best case for mario as well. He already lives here and is a big part of the community. Now correct me if I am wrong, but if he did sign a long term contract, and he got hurt to where it was a career ending injury, would the texans still be paying him? I feel like we would be the only team willing to sign him to like a 7 year deal. That way he would be set in his career and and not risk signing a shorter deal somewhere else and then losing out in the end.Any injured player would be paid for any money guaranteed plus any "buy out" his agent could negotiate. Any bonus &Mario had none, is prorated over life on the contract & team has to count the yearly avg left against the next cap. For example, if Mario were to sign a 6 year deal with $18m bonus (upfront), he gets that immediately. He also was given $24m guaranteed. He gets that but it can be paid to him as team and his agent agrees. The bonus 20m is avg across the 6 year deal at $3m per year. Let's say he gets career ending injury 5th game second year. There is 4 years remaining with $3m (bonus) each year; the bonus is accelerated to the third year. That would be $12m against cap in third season.

Hope this helps?

Ryan
12-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Do whatever we need to keep him.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 12:14 PM
You are talking about mortgaging the future. That cap number will escalate until it poses a very big problem. By the way, you can't simply cut a player three years into a 7 year deal like one we are talking about.

I understand every thing you're saying. I don't agree with some of your conclusions. You're talking about straight up cutting him in 3 years, meaning you don't believe he will live up to his end of the contract.

I think he will. I think we'll be looking to extend Mario again.

But, if we give Mario $40 million up front as part of that deal, with $200,000 salary, & a $6M, $7M, $10M, $10M cap number over the first 4 years, that leaves $7M to be addressed over the next 3 years of the contract, when the salary will balloon to the point where everyone will say, "The Texans aren't going to pay him that."

So your option is to cut him then ($7M dead money) or resign him for a longer term. Let's say his skills diminish to where you think they are right now.... we can offer him a $20M bonus over 4 years.

The idea is that even though the contract says 5 years, or 7 years you're actually only paying the player so much over the first 3 years or 4 years & manipulating the numbers to fit under the cap.

TheGoldenGreek
12-22-2011, 12:30 PM
I think we absolutely should tag him. Give him another chance to prove himself next season and if he performs like we believe he should, pay that man!

ObsiWan
12-22-2011, 12:39 PM
I think his franchise number for next season will be between $22m and $23m ..... thats a lotta jack to pay one guy.


The Franchise tag is the average of the top 5 at the position OR the last years salary plus 20% whichever is greater ... MW would most likely fall into the 20% group.

I could be wrong .... but thats the way I understand it.

Where did you get 9-10M range for Mario's franchise number ????
You do realize its in the 18-20M range???

His salary figure this year is somewhere between $14 and $18 million. Any player that is franchised is guaranteed a 20% raise.

I checked several sites and they all say Mario's salary for 2011 is $13.8M; when you multiply that by 1.2 you get 15.56M. While this is still prohibitive, it's not the 20-22 million you guys keep spouting.


I understand every thing you're saying. I don't agree with some of your conclusions. You're talking about straight up cutting him in 3 years, meaning you don't believe he will live up to his end of the contract.

I think he will. I think we'll be looking to extend Mario again.

But, if we give Mario $40 million up front as part of that deal, with $200,000 salary, & a $6M, $7M, $10M, $10M cap number over the first 4 years, that leaves $7M to be addressed over the next 3 years of the contract, when the salary will balloon to the point where everyone will say, "The Texans aren't going to pay him that."

So your option is to cut him then ($7M dead money) or resign him for a longer term. Let's say his skills diminish to where you think they are right now.... we can offer him a $20M bonus over 4 years.

The idea is that even though the contract says 5 years, or 7 years you're actually only paying the player so much over the first 3 years or 4 years & manipulating the numbers to fit under the cap.

I like this plan.
:phone:
Rick, make this happen!

dalemurphy
12-22-2011, 01:01 PM
I understand every thing you're saying. I don't agree with some of your conclusions. You're talking about straight up cutting him in 3 years, meaning you don't believe he will live up to his end of the contract.

I think he will. I think we'll be looking to extend Mario again.

But, if we give Mario $40 million up front as part of that deal, with $200,000 salary, & a $6M, $7M, $10M, $10M cap number over the first 4 years, that leaves $7M to be addressed over the next 3 years of the contract, when the salary will balloon to the point where everyone will say, "The Texans aren't going to pay him that."

So your option is to cut him then ($7M dead money) or resign him for a longer term. Let's say his skills diminish to where you think they are right now.... we can offer him a $20M bonus over 4 years.

The idea is that even though the contract says 5 years, or 7 years you're actually only paying the player so much over the first 3 years or 4 years & manipulating the numbers to fit under the cap.

There are a series of rules disallowing some of what you are suggesting. For instance, salaries can only escalate at a certain rate (roughly 150% each year). Therefore, you can not give someone a salary of $200,000 in year one and then $4 million in year two. Second, the prorated bonuse money counts against the cap each year. So, if he has a salary of $6 million it would add to his bonus that would be divided by the number of contract years, so his cap number would be roughly $12 million in the earlier scenario. Finally, the entire bonus remaining on a deal with years left gets immediately thrown against the cap in one year after he's cut or traded. So, if the Texans traded Mario with three years remaining on the aforementioned 7 year deal, $18 million of prorated cap money would immediately count against the next season's cap.

Dutchrudder
12-22-2011, 01:14 PM
Philly's defense has most observers scratching their heads. They beat Miami and Jets who are not known for offense. I read that there is some consideration of going to the 3-4 next season. Remains to be seen if Juan Castillo has finally gotten D going.

I think Dallas beats them Christmas Eve & Philly wins vs Washington = 7-9 record. Will Andy Reid be allowed to continue? Would Wade Phillips get an offer to be head coach and would he want Mario to be his OLB with Babin on other side?

If you want to ship Mario off for a few picks, 1st or 2nd & 3rd, then you need to find a team with a lot of cap space available and a lack of pass rushing. Some teams that have a lot of money to work with next year will be: Chiefs, 49ers, Bills, Bucs, Jags, Bengals, Browns, Bears, Seahawks, Cardinals, Packers and Redskins - all of which currently have 10+ million in capspace.

Of those, several of them need help with pass rush, but then you have to figure out where they would play Mario. Is he a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB? Would they be willing to take the risk on him after his injury? Would you trade a 2nd & 3rd for him and then give him a 60 million dollar deal? It's a tough place for that team and Mario. I think the uncertainty of his injury coupled with the limited time he played OLB here may reduce his cost on the market and give the Texans a chance to re-sign him for 8-9 million a year or match whatever he is offered elsewhere.

ObsiWan
12-22-2011, 01:21 PM
There are a series of rules disallowing some of what you are suggesting. For instance, salaries can only escalate at a certain rate (roughly 150% each year). Therefore, you can not give someone a salary of $200,000 in year one and then $4 million in year two. Second, the prorated bonuse money counts against the cap each year. So, if he has a salary of $6 million it would add to his bonus that would be divided by the number of contract years, so his cap number would be roughly $12 million in the earlier scenario. Finally, the entire bonus remaining on a deal with years left gets immediately thrown against the cap in one year after he's cut or traded. So, if the Texans traded Mario with three years remaining on the aforementioned 7 year deal, $18 million of prorated cap money would immediately count against the next season's cap.

If that's true then explain A.J.'s salary progression. According to this source (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/yearly/), it's between 6.0 and 6.5 mil in 2011-2014 then jumps to 10.5 mil in 2015. While it's not the exaggerated double order-of-magnitude increase you used in your example does exceed the 150% rule you quote.

In fact, the same site shows (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/yearly/) that Mario's salary quadrupled from last year ($3.025 M) to this ($13.8 M).

maybe the limit you speak of is a result of the new cap rules....

ObsiWan
12-22-2011, 01:26 PM
If you want to ship Mario off for a few picks, 1st or 2nd & 3rd, then you need to find a team with a lot of cap space available and a lack of pass rushing. Some teams that have a lot of money to work with next year will be: Chiefs, 49ers, Bills, Bucs, Jags, Bengals, Browns, Bears, Seahawks, Cardinals, Packers and Redskins - all of which currently have 10+ million in capspace.

Of those, several of them need help with pass rush, but then you have to figure out where they would play Mario. Is he a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB? Would they be willing to take the risk on him after his injury? Would you trade a 2nd & 3rd for him and then give him a 60 million dollar deal? It's a tough place for that team and Mario. I think the uncertainty of his injury coupled with the limited time he played OLB here may reduce his cost on the market and give the Texans a chance to re-sign him for 8-9 million a year or match whatever he is offered elsewhere.

I agree. I think the injury uncertainty and the looming multi-megabuck deal are very prohibitive to Mario ending up elsewhere. I think he stays at a reduced cost. Probably somewhere in the range of A.J.'s salary - 6-6.5 M with a balloon payment at the end of a multiyear deal.

ChampionTexan
12-22-2011, 01:42 PM
If that's true then explain A.J.'s salary progression. According to this source (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/yearly/), it's between 6.0 and 6.5 mil in 2011-2014 then jumps to 10.5 mil in 2015. While it's not the exaggerated double order-of-magnitude increase you used in your example does exceed the 150% rule you quote.

In fact, the same site shows (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/yearly/) that Mario's salary quadrupled from last year ($3.025 M) to this ($13.8 M).

maybe the limit you speak of is a result of the new cap rules....

The rule he's talking about only applied to the restructuring of existing deals, and it applied under the previous CBA (although it could very well apply to the current one also - I haven't checked).

Basically, if a contract existed that included a salary amount for a certain year, you couldn't restructure or extend that contract and raise a previously existing amount by more than a certain percent. It applied more going into the uncapped year of 2010, as there was lots of talk (mostly by fans) about restructuring existing deals to dump as much of the already existing future obligation into the uncapped year as possible. (IE: He's getting $8 Million, $9 Million and $10 Million a year over the next three years, let's restructure his contract to pay him $25 Million in 2010 and the minimum the two years after that).

It didn't (doesn't?) apply to years that were being negotiated for the first time.

badboy
12-22-2011, 01:46 PM
Keep in mind that the new television deal bringing and extra $3 Billion begins in 2013 and will allow teams to really back load contracts with new cap space allowances.

panamamyers
12-22-2011, 01:54 PM
Not.
No need to do so. We can get someone for a lot cheaper to fill in there behind Reed and Barwin.

badboy
12-22-2011, 02:27 PM
If you want to ship Mario off for a few picks, 1st or 2nd & 3rd, then you need to find a team with a lot of cap space available and a lack of pass rushing. Some teams that have a lot of money to work with next year will be: Chiefs, 49ers, Bills, Bucs, Jags, Bengals, Browns, Bears, Seahawks, Cardinals, Packers and Redskins - all of which currently have 10+ million in capspace.

Of those, several of them need help with pass rush, but then you have to figure out where they would play Mario. Is he a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB? Would they be willing to take the risk on him after his injury? Would you trade a 2nd & 3rd for him and then give him a 60 million dollar deal? It's a tough place for that team and Mario. I think the uncertainty of his injury coupled with the limited time he played OLB here may reduce his cost on the market and give the Texans a chance to re-sign him for 8-9 million a year or match whatever he is offered elsewhere.I think Eagles will be reducing cap space on defensive side of ball in off season.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 02:46 PM
Basically, if a contract existed that included a salary amount for a certain year, you couldn't restructure or extend that contract and raise a previously existing amount by more than a certain percent. It applied more going into the uncapped year of 2010, as there was lots of talk (mostly by fans) about restructuring existing deals to dump as much of the already existing future obligation into the uncapped year as possible. (IE: He's getting $8 Million, $9 Million and $10 Million a year over the next three years, let's restructure his contract to pay him $25 Million in 2010 and the minimum the two years after that).

It didn't (doesn't?) apply to years that were being negotiated for the first time.

I don't know all the rules, but I know I've seen deals like the one I mentioned. Several of our players had similar deals.

In the scenario I'm talking about, since we are not restructuring Mario's contract & it will be a new deal, then we should be able to structure a deal similar to what I'm saying. At no point in the first 4 years will Mario have a salary greater than 2 or 4 million his cap number will largely be made up of the prorated signing bonus & various roster bonus or whatever incentives they put in.

& yes, it will be structured as such that Mario & his agent would be satisfied, or reasonably assured that the Texans won't cut him.

badboy
12-22-2011, 03:21 PM
It does not need to be "incentive laden" it needs to be structured correctly. Since the salary cap era, total value of the contracts mean less than nothing. That's why teams get a pass (sort of) when they cut players prior to the contract runs full term.

Guaranteed money is important to the player as is the structure.

Peppers deal came with $46 million paid over the first 3 years. He might play under this contract for 4 or 5 years. If he's playing well, he'll probably ask for more. If he's playing like a 40 year old man, he'll probably be happy with his smallish salary & place on the team.

Front load the contract so you aren't a cap casualty later on. Back load a contract to "force" your team to renegotiate before the contract is up.

Like Mario's rookie deal. He & his agent gambled that he would be one of the top rush ends in the league by 2011. I bet they never expected to see Mario earn $16 million in one year. Normally, that would have been close to the bonus for his new deal... $20M, $25M for a 6 year $80M contract. The majority of that $80M paid in the first 4 years of the contract, but spread out over 6 for cap purposes. Then when you get to year 5, you restructure, more bonus money, spread over an additional 6 years.If I remember correctly, McNair said the contract was helpful in choosing Mario with first pick. I do not think a #1 had ever agreed to a no bonus before.

dalemurphy
12-22-2011, 04:03 PM
If that's true then explain A.J.'s salary progression. According to this source (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/yearly/), it's between 6.0 and 6.5 mil in 2011-2014 then jumps to 10.5 mil in 2015. While it's not the exaggerated double order-of-magnitude increase you used in your example does exceed the 150% rule you quote.

In fact, the same site shows (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/yearly/) that Mario's salary quadrupled from last year ($3.025 M) to this ($13.8 M).

maybe the limit you speak of is a result of the new cap rules....

Sure:

1. AJ's salary progression could go from $5 million to $7 million to $10 million to $13 million in a 4 year period without ever jumping 150%, as I have just shown.

2. Mario's salary is not $14 million. His salary is roughly $7 million but his cap hit is an additional $6 million due to his prorated salary bonus, giving him a cap hit of roughly $14 million.

These rules are not new.

badboy
12-22-2011, 04:09 PM
Sure:

1. AJ's salary progression could go from $5 million to $7 million to $10 million to $13 million in a 4 year period without ever jumping 150%, as I have just shown.

2. Mario's salary is not $14 million. His salary is roughly $7 million but his cap hit is an additional $6 million due to his prorated salary bonus, giving him a cap hit of roughly $14 million.

These rules are not new.You need to research this as Mario did not get a salary bonus. He did receive small incentive bonus each year. His 2011 salary was $13.8m. His cap was apprx $15m.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 04:31 PM
Sure:

1. AJ's salary progression could go from $5 million to $7 million to $10 million to $13 million in a 4 year period without ever jumping 150%, as I have just shown.

2. Mario's salary is not $14 million. His salary is roughly $7 million but his cap hit is an additional $6 million due to his prorated salary bonus, giving him a cap hit of roughly $14 million.

These rules are not new.

Mario had no bonus on his rookie deal. His salary for this year is $13+Million.

dalemurphy
12-22-2011, 05:30 PM
You need to research this as Mario did not get a salary bonus. He did receive small incentive bonus each year. His 2011 salary was $13.8m. His cap was apprx $15m.

Call it what you want. When he signed, he was given a bunch of money. that money had to be spread out in such a way, with guarantees, that it created the situation we have now.

Regardless, the point is that his new deal will require a huge bonus, or something equivalent to it, which will ensure he collects a number of his higher salaried years.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 07:25 PM
Call it what you want. When he signed, he was given a bunch of money. that money had to be spread out in such a way, with guarantees, that it created the situation we have now.

Regardless, the point is that his new deal will require a huge bonus, or something equivalent to it, which will ensure he collects a number of his higher salaried years.

I don't think so... on both counts.

dalemurphy
12-22-2011, 10:48 PM
I don't think so... on both counts.

You'd be very wrong then. All first round picks, particularly early picks, are guaranteed huge amounts of money.

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 12:39 AM
You'd be very wrong then. All first round picks, particularly early picks, are guaranteed huge amounts of money.

guaranteed money doesn't necessarily mean bonus.

gafftop
01-10-2012, 07:56 AM
This thread started back in March 2011, 10 months ago.

The Mario issue is polarizing to say the least. I don't hate Mario but I do think he "was" overrated and therefore excellent trade material. Also it seemed to me that no matter what occurred during the 2011 season we would have problems with his contract at the end of the season. We also had glaring problems at DB and I thought WR which could have been helped with a trade of Mario before the season began. The front office did a great job with JJ/Manning but did not address the WR issue. Can you imagine this team with another quality CB and another quality WR.

I feel we may have the weakest overall WR group left in the playoffs. We may have one of the best WR but the others ... Can you imagine if we had a Cruz, Welker, etc how much better this offense would be. That is a whole other thread.

As the season has progressed it has become more obvious in regards to the Mario situation.

How the Texans deal with the Mario situation will be the most important decision to be made this offseason. As stated months ago I think we have already let the best outcome pass by keeping him this year.

Signing Mario to a big contract will critically impair the chances of this team to improve and keep current players. The Texans still have many needs and giving a large amount to MW will make it impossible to address as many as they could if they do not sign him. Do you really see him signing a contract that only counts say 8 million against the cap ?

Nothing in regards to the Mario issue has change in the last 10 months. It just is becoming more obvious.

Hervoyel
01-10-2012, 10:43 AM
Trade Mario.....

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/Hervoyel/400px-527-no-because-no.jpg

badboy
01-10-2012, 12:10 PM
to build a dynasty, you consider all options. Loyalty is very good but it did get Kubiak in trouble with his coaches and probably some players (Studdard, Okam, Travis Johnson)

gafftop
01-10-2012, 03:22 PM
http://www.totalpackers.com/2010/04/08/packers-made-a-mistake-not-trading-kampman/

Hope we don't end up in same boat but I sure don't like the feeling right now.

LikeMike
01-10-2012, 04:05 PM
to build a dynasty, you consider all options. Loyalty is very good but it did get Kubiak in trouble with his coaches and probably some players (Studdard, Okam, Travis Johnson)

I don`t think this is about loyalty. Mario is a special player - who plays a little inconsistent and occassionally has some injury problems. He is that kind of player that every offensive coordinator worries about before a game. And he is a player who will get lots of big contract offers.

The question is: what helps this team the most?

a) signing Mario to a longterm deal
b) franchising Mario
c) let him walk and clear loads of cap space

My oppinion is pretty easy: you don`t let a player walk, that almost any other team would like to have. I do believe he can be a major part of this defense - but if it doesn`t work out I am sure, that we can trade his big contract for at least a couple of picks.

So I say: don`t let him walk.

badboy
01-10-2012, 04:16 PM
I don`t think this is about loyalty. Mario is a special player - who plays a little inconsistent and occassionally has some injury problems. He is that kind of player that every offensive coordinator worries about before a game. And he is a player who will get lots of big contract offers.

The question is: what helps this team the most?

a) signing Mario to a longterm deal
b) franchising Mario
c) let him walk and clear loads of cap space

My oppinion is pretty easy: you don`t let a player walk, that almost any other team would like to have. I do believe he can be a major part of this defense - but if it doesn`t work out I am sure, that we can trade his big contract for at least a couple of picks.

So I say: don`t let him walk.You & I are on same page. We do not have to trade a "big" contract. See my recent post on thread "Mario Williams" below this thread. Mario can be given a contract friendly to team and player.

gafftop
01-10-2012, 05:33 PM
You & I are on same page. We do not have to trade a "big" contract. See my recent post on thread "Mario Williams" below this thread. Mario can be given a contract friendly to team and player.

I am just not sure Mario has any reason to give us some type of special deal. Do we have any rights to him other than franchise rights?

thunderkyss
01-10-2012, 06:00 PM
I am just not sure Mario has any reason to give us some type of special deal. Do we have any rights to him other than franchise rights?

I'm fine with that, If Mario doesn't want to be here, his loss. I wouldn't bend over backwards to keep him, I would not franchise him.

If we can't get him to sign a deal, let him walk.

Norg
01-10-2012, 11:27 PM
If wade leaves mario stays simple has that

Brisco_County
01-11-2012, 10:48 PM
I've felt all season that Mario won't be a Texan next year. He's too much against the cap, and we need to pay Arian. It's that simple.

welsh texan
01-12-2012, 07:20 AM
I've felt all season that Mario won't be a Texan next year. He's too much against the cap, and we need to pay Arian. It's that simple.

In fairness we can't really be sure what he's going to cost against the cap or how much cap space we really have at our disposal. We're still in a period of having a 'soft' cap anyway aren't we until the new CBA has settled in.

If Mario is willing to meet us at a point where he's affordable and well paid, great, we get to keep a great player and our LB rotation looks incredible.

If Mario isn't willing to do that, then he walks, the starting OLB's are still extremely good, and we just saved a boatload of cap space to use on some great talent.

We've got 2x20+page threads all worrying about what will happen with Mario in the offseason, but really, its win-win for the Texans, we're stacked with talent at his position, and we haven't got glaring holes elsewhere in the starting lineup that need to be adressed, simply a few places where an upgrade would be a bonus.

amazing80
01-12-2012, 08:30 AM
Well if you remember Mario did sign first back in 2006, so maybe he really wants to be here and signs another friendly contract.....no reason to think Mario is not happy here

dalemurphy
01-12-2012, 08:41 AM
In fairness we can't really be sure what he's going to cost against the cap or how much cap space we really have at our disposal. We're still in a period of having a 'soft' cap anyway aren't we until the new CBA has settled in.

If Mario is willing to meet us at a point where he's affordable and well paid, great, we get to keep a great player and our LB rotation looks incredible.

.

His presence certainly makes our linebacker rotation better than it is now. But, so would other additions.

We would be getting a physical freak at an affordable rate but not a great player, IMO. He is not a great player. He is an incredible athlete that flashes greatness on occasion.

welsh texan
01-12-2012, 09:16 AM
His presence certainly makes our linebacker rotation better than it is now. But, so would other additions.

We would be getting a physical freak at an affordable rate but not a great player, IMO. He is not a great player. He is an incredible athlete that flashes greatness on occasion.

The guy set off at a rate of 'flashing greatness' an average of once per game before he got hurt this season. He also seemed to be helping those around him, as it took the rest of the front 7 a number of games before they found a way to start racking up the sacks again after he went down.

Of course we could use that money to bring in another OLB, CB2 & WR2 if he walks, his cap hit this season would seem to suggest that all 3 positions could be attainable for that sort of money, and who knows whether that makes our team better overall or not. But I can't help but feel that Mario, with a full offseason, and coming back healthy, could finally reach his potential in this system, and be a contender for most sacks season after season. Thats what I see, and I only see improvement coming from those around him in the future.

dalemurphy
01-12-2012, 09:27 AM
The guy set off at a rate of 'flashing greatness' an average of once per game before he got hurt this season. He also seemed to be helping those around him, as it took the rest of the front 7 a number of games before they found a way to start racking up the sacks again after he went down.

Of course we could use that money to bring in another OLB, CB2 & WR2 if he walks, his cap hit this season would seem to suggest that all 3 positions could be attainable for that sort of money, and who knows whether that makes our team better overall or not. But I can't help but feel that Mario, with a full offseason, and coming back healthy, could finally reach his potential in this system, and be a contender for most sacks season after season. Thats what I see, and I only see improvement coming from those around him in the future.

Connor Barwin, in his first season starting in the NFL, had 11.5 sacks. I don't think that Mario's 5 sacks in 5 games proves his greatness.

The Texans pressured Baltimore a great deal in their first game without Mario. After that game, the Texans went on a 7 game winning streak with consistently dominant performances turned in by the defense. Perhaps Mario is better than I think he is, but I wouldn't use the production of the defensive front 7 after Mario was injured as evidence of that fact.

thunderkyss
01-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Connor Barwin, in his first season starting in the NFL, had 11.5 sacks. I don't think that Mario's 5 sacks in 5 games proves his greatness.


In Connor's first full season he has 4 team mates with 5 or more sacks (including Mario) & Brian Cushing with 4.

Mario has never had so much help since he's been here. I doubt there was a season where he had more than 2 other players on this team with 5 sacks.

Imagine we get a defense next year, with 2 players in double digit sacks & 4 or 5 others with 5 or more.

Brooks Reed might step up & be that other guy..... we might draft a guy that can come in & do that as well..... maybe get a guy in FA....

Or just sign Mario. To me, I'm going with the bird in the hand.... spend my high draft picks & FA dollars on offense where we are in desperate need of a talent infusion.

Then in the 2013 offseason we can spread our resources more evenly.

Texecutioner
01-12-2012, 12:23 PM
Well if you remember Mario did sign first back in 2006, so maybe he really wants to be here and signs another friendly contract.....no reason to think Mario is not happy here

Why is it every time these discussions appear about a certain Texans player, there are so many in here that always suggest that our guys are going to be willing to sign "a Texans friendly contract?"

There is never any basis to suggest this, and it never happens that way. No one is going to do that, and they shouldn't have to, because their objective is to make as much money as possible while they are still considered top players at their position.

I keep hearing this sentiment about Arian Foster as well, and I just don't get the naive feelings as to why guys are going to do this just because they already play here. These guys want to get paid, because they see other guys getting paid around the league. Mario is not going to sign some Texans friendly contract or give some Texans discount. He is going to want what his value is around the league considering on average what most teams will offer him, and then he'll decide what team he'd like to play for the most that is paying around that average.

The only time that players typically take less is when there at the tail end of their careers where they have already had huge contracts and they're playing for their last chance to win a SB or to compete for one with a team they want to end their career with or with a team they have a very good chance and a large window to do that with.

badboy
01-12-2012, 02:48 PM
Why is it every time these discussions appear about a certain Texans player, there are so many in here that always suggest that our guys are going to be willing to sign "a Texans friendly contract?"

There is never any basis to suggest this, and it never happens that way. No one is going to do that, and they shouldn't have to, because their objective is to make as much money as possible while they are still considered top players at their position.

I keep hearing this sentiment about Arian Foster as well, and I just don't get the naive feelings as to why guys are going to do this just because they already play here. These guys want to get paid, because they see other guys getting paid around the league. Mario is not going to sign some Texans friendly contract or give some Texans discount. He is going to want what his value is around the league considering on average what most teams will offer him, and then he'll decide what team he'd like to play for the most that is paying around that average.

The only time that players typically take less is when there at the tail end of their careers where they have already had huge contracts and they're playing for their last chance to win a SB or to compete for one with a team they want to end their career with or with a team they have a very good chance and a large window to do that with.Mario's first deal as #1 pick blow this comment to pieces.I believe it was first time first pick agreed to contract with no upfront bonus. You are correct he wants his value & that can be given with upfront $ this deal and a reasonable cap hit.

Foster's only choice in controlling his salary as RFA is to sit out the season and I cannot see that happening. He knows McNair has taken care of his star players and I imagen that AJ and Ryans have already talked to him about that. Foster also knows what he has in this ZBS system that helps him be one of the best yardage backs in the NFL. :turtle:

Perki-Perk
01-12-2012, 02:52 PM
I'm sure we can convince Mr. Irsay that Mario Williams opposite Dwight Freeney would be the greatest thing ever for that #1 pick.

gafftop
01-15-2012, 04:02 PM
We spread out the risk if we make the trade. We need alot of help on defense. If Mario was a sure thing in the new system then I don't know if it makes as much sense. But Mario is a BIG question mark. I don't think the Texans can gamble and hope he is happy in his new role and healthy. I do think he is thought of highly around the NFL or at least I hope he is or this deal will not work. Gary above said in one instant a player could be gone. If we do nothing we only have Mario. If someone is willing to trade maybe we get 3 for 1 and even if 1 goes down we have 2 other productive players. Also maybe NA is not the one to get. Maybe you get 2 highly productive players and a draft choice in the trade and sign someone else in FA, then package the 11 with the choice picked up and move up to get a better player in the draft. I don't know. All I know is if the trade happens we have multiple chance to be successful. Keep Mario and you are rolling the dice on Mario.

Agreed

Plus MW is going to be due a huge contract extention after this season. (He will get one whether it's from the Texans are somebody else based on untapped potential) So the time is right to trade him now while you can get something close to maximum value.

MW is one of those guys who will leave you at the altar. In short he's overrated. (Always got some kind of freak injury.) The Texans need to rebuild this defense with high character guys. Not guys who are more worried about bling and racing their sports cars. Am I the only one that gets the feeling that football isn't the #1 priority in MW's life?

Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion.

I tend to agree with you. It makes me sick that we will get nothing or worse we sign Mario to another big contract. I would be OK with a proven player and a high draft choice next year. That is better than nothing. The Patriots get incrementally better with each trade. It may not be a blockbuster trade but they do get better and younger. The overall talent level of the team is always getting better, plus they know talent that allows them to continually get better. The Texans on the other hand tend to make trades that makes no difference or more often makes them worse. Have they ever made a trade that improved the team? I know Schaub, but we did not give up an actual player. Have we ever traded a player and received a draft choice or player? i umderstand we don't have a lot to trade. Mario is about the only one that MAY have value that I would trade. Just rambling now not looking forward to this coming season.

If a trade had been made and we had a 1A WR and a quality CB where would we be? Exact same team we have now only instead of Mario we have a 1A wr and a quality CB. Even before the Mario injury I would have been in favor of the WR and CB. I think Jamison played good. Just my opinion.

Heard today that the franchise cost on Mario is about 20 mill. When I made statement above I thought his franchise cost would be 10 mill as a LB. Sorry at 20 mill or 1/7 of whole salary cap for the TExans for next year I would say pass. Just don't sign him to a big dollar long term contract. Just my opinion.

This season is over. Now we have to deal with the biggest decision maybe in the Texans history. What to do with Mario.

The best option is long passed and that was to trade him before the season started. Now what do you do with him. I can't possibly see how we pay him $20 mill to franchise. I don't see him giving us any special deal. We have many needs and I wouldn't like the message sent to the rest of the team if we sign Mario at the expense of current players. I am tired of people saying we have salary cap issues that keep us from signing FA or our own players when we pay Mario $17 million. You don't build a team when you pay that type of money to Mario.

I know I am obsessed with this issue but it will overshadow any other decisons made this offseason and will dffect this team for years to come.

I know many will say sign him to a long term deal pay him a big bonus so he only counts $7-$8 million against the cap. Still don't see how you do this and not hurt the team.

What are the feelings out there. Are they the same as they were last year when I started this thread. My main concern back then was injury and motor and my main concern now is injury and motor.

Foster said nothing all season. NOW is the time to take care of him not Mario.

Playoffs
01-15-2012, 04:03 PM
Let it go.

gafftop
01-15-2012, 04:28 PM
How can you let it go. I probably should just start a new thread. thanks

gafftop
01-15-2012, 04:55 PM
This season is over. Now we have to deal with the biggest decision maybe in the Texans history. What to do with Mario.

The best option is long passed and that was to trade him before the 2011season started. Now what do you do with him. I can't possibly see how we pay him $20 mill to franchise. I don't see him giving us any special deal. We have many needs and I wouldn't like the message sent to the rest of the team if we sign Mario at the expense of current players. I am tired of people saying we have salary cap issues that keep us from signing FA or our own players when we pay Mario $17 million. You don't build a team when you pay that type of money to Mario.

I know I am obsessed with this issue but it will overshadow any other decisons made this offseason and will affect this team for years to come.

I know many will say sign him to a long term deal pay him a big bonus so he only counts $7-$8 million against the cap. Still don't see how you do this and not hurt the team.

What are the feelings out there. Are they the same as they were last year. My main concern back then was injury and motor and my main concern now is injury and motor.

Foster said nothing all season. NOW is the time to take care of him not Mario.

Brandon420tx
01-15-2012, 04:56 PM
You sign Foster First, Then Mario, Then Myers.

Those 3 are priority this offseason

mariowillshine15
01-15-2012, 04:57 PM
This season is over. Now we have to deal with the biggest decision maybe in the Texans history. What to do with Mario.

The best option is long passed and that was to trade him before the 2011season started. Now what do you do with him. I can't possibly see how we pay him $20 mill to franchise. I don't see him giving us any special deal. We have many needs and I wouldn't like the message sent to the rest of the team if we sign Mario at the expense of current players. I am tired of people saying we have salary cap issues that keep us from signing FA or our own players when we pay Mario $17 million. You don't build a team when you pay that type of money to Mario.

I know I am obsessed with this issue but it will overshadow any other decisons made this offseason and will dffect this team for years to come.

I know many will say sign him to a long term deal pay him a big bonus so he only counts $7-$8 million against the cap. Still don't see how you do this and not hurt the team.

What are the feelings out there. Are they the same as they were last year. My main concern back then was injury and motor and my main concern now is injury and motor.

Foster said nothing all season. NOW is the time to take care of him not Mario.

You take care of them both.

Mario had 5 sacks before he was hurt. A full season in Wade's D would make this defense even more scary than it is now.

Foster goes without saying. Pay the man.

eriadoc
01-15-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm honestly torn on the subject. I think talent-wise, he ranks up there and would be worth re-signing. Those who dismiss his ability or efforrt are just ridiculously absurd and I don't pay one bit of attention to what they say. The man played hurt while getting pounded by the biggest players in the game every down for years. I don't question that.

The reality of the matter, however, is you cannot ignore his injuries. You can't pay a guy that kind of money to either play ineffectively due to injury or be on IR. He's had one injury-free season as a Texan, and it showed that he can be a beast. He was leading the team in sacks this year playing a position he was still learning, showing that he can be a beast. But he's definitely injury prone. He's had high ankle sprains, plantar fasciitis, a bum shoulder, a torn pec, and probably a lot more that we don't know about. Trench battles are a *****. He's a tough man, and he's played through hell. I don't intend to diminish that at all, but his productivity has suffered, and that's what you pay for, IMO.

Hey, the Colts let Bob Sanders go for the same reasons, I think. Everyone talked about what a great player Sanders was IF he was out there, but you can't pay for IF.

EVOLVIST
01-15-2012, 05:06 PM
How can you let it go. I probably should just start a new thread. thanks

Hahaha! Well, I think you're right with letting Mario walk, in whichever way they do it.

I haven't contributed to this thread much, but the way I look at it:

1.) You have to pay Arian Foster - which will be difficult keeping MW.

2.) Instead of banking on young WR in the draft, cut Jacoby Jones (I said this last year) and free up money for a real #2. We've never had one - and we're only one weapon away from being in the big show: Robert Meachem, Pierre Garcon, Mario Manningham, Harry Douglas, Duane Bowe (although he is reaching too high w/ his salary), et al. Because fair enough Lestar Jean is probably the real deal.

3.) In the 1st round take a the best DT, 3-4 LB.

4.) Between the 2nd/3rd rounds best OL or WR available. Remember, we actually do have depth at OL, but they were all put on IR right away.

Hell, for Mario's money, you might be able to afford another free agent CB who has a little more experience. The writing is on the wall for Sherrick McManis.

Just some rough thoughts off the top of my head.

Playoffs
01-15-2012, 05:08 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80450

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88172

welsh texan
01-15-2012, 05:18 PM
No one seems to be talking about Myers' contract situation, but, for me, he is number 1 priority. He's the lynchpin of our O-line and that makes him key to Foster's success.

Next up is Foster, we've witnessed our redzone troubles with him injured at the start of this season despite Ben Tate filling in well.

Williams, I wouldn't be upset if they made him the highest paid player on the team, I would be upset if that was a number that stopped us from sorting out other areas in FA.

The good thing is that even if we sign MW to somewhere around $12m, we have $5m in cap space compared to this season, we can lose Jason Allen for ~$1.5m, Matt Leinart for ~$3m & Jacoby for ~$3.5m. Hell Jake Delhomme is down to earn $9m between this year and next!! Plenty of wiggle room against the cap depending which pieces you want to rid yourself of. We could resign all 3 and still come up with a lower cap hit than this season if we want to.

My worry is the next year, when Barwin, Brown, Schaub, Quin, Casey & Cody all hit free agency and thats just to mention our starters. What the hell are they going to do then? I'd make each of those positions draft needs right now, groom the talent to replace them because we haven't got a hope in hell of keeping them all.

DocBar
01-15-2012, 05:21 PM
No one seems to be talking about Myers' contract situation, but, for me, he is number 1 priority. He's the lynchpin of our O-line and that makes him key to Foster's success.

Next up is Foster, we've witnessed our redzone troubles with him injured at the start of this season despite Ben Tate filling in well.

Williams, I wouldn't be upset if they made him the highest paid player on the team, I would be upset if that was a number that stopped us from sorting out other areas in FA.

The good thing is that even if we sign MW to somewhere around $12m, we have $5m in cap space compared to this season, we can lose Jason Allen for ~$1.5m, Matt Leinart for ~$3m & Jacoby for ~$3.5m. Hell Jake Delhomme is down to earn $9m between this year and next!! Plenty of wiggle room against the cap depending which pieces you want to rid yourself of. We could resign all 3 and still come up with a lower cap hit than this season if we want to.

My worry is the next year, when Barwin, Brown, Schaub, Quin, Casey & Cody all hit free agency and thats just to mention our starters. What the hell are they going to do then? I'd make each of those positions draft needs right now, groom the talent to replace them because we haven't got a hope in hell of keeping them all.I agree with this. Myers and Foster would be 1A/1B to me. We don't have a proven option to Myers and he's been kick ass the last 2 years.
Texans salaries (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/houston-texans/salary/67071?q=houston-texans)

Norg
01-15-2012, 05:27 PM
Man ........ I think we cant ignore the injuries hes injured every year

And this is a passing leauge we need a hyrbid olb who can cover has well has pass

If it was me i would trade him and get a olb stud in the draft

Scooter
01-15-2012, 05:36 PM
you keep your own. we absolutely must find a way to wiggle the cap in order to keep our guys and sign draft picks. this team is matt schaub away from being in the superbowl and if we get even 1 starter from the draft we are in incredible shape. lets not forget, we still have brandon harris and roc carmichael in the wings to make our secondary even stronger next season. with a healthy mario and an offseason to get demeco back to form, we look to be incredibly nasty on defense.

PapaL
01-15-2012, 05:56 PM
I've been saying it since he went down and the D took off. Mario's contract is the giant white elephant in room. All of our OLBs were converted from other positions and were a huge impact in every game. Does Mario make our OLBs better? At what price? Gonna be interesting to see this play out.

Lucky
01-15-2012, 06:10 PM
This didn't take you long. But, at least you realize you're obsessed with this issue. Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

gafftop
01-15-2012, 06:13 PM
Hahaha! Well, I think you're right with letting Mario walk, in whichever way they do it.

I haven't contributed to this thread much, but the way I look at it:

1.) You have to pay Arian Foster - which will be difficult keeping MW.

2.) Instead of banking on young WR in the draft, cut Jacoby Jones (I said this last year) and free up money for a real #2. We've never had one - and we're only one weapon away from being in the big show: Robert Meachem, Pierre Garcon, Mario Manningham, Harry Douglas, Duane Bowe (although he is reaching too high w/ his salary), et al. Because fair enough Lestar Jean is probably the real deal.

3.) In the 1st round take a the best DT, 3-4 LB.

4.) Between the 2nd/3rd rounds best OL or WR available. Remember, we actually do have depth at OL, but they were all put on IR right away.

Hell, for Mario's money, you might be able to afford another free agent CB who has a little more experience. The writing is on the wall for Sherrick McManis.

Just some rough thoughts off the top of my head.

Where were you last year before the season started. I must admit there were some who were in favor of trying to get something for Mario last year.

Well I need to let this thread go. thanks all

Scooter
01-15-2012, 06:17 PM
I've been saying it since he went down and the D took off. Mario's contract is the giant white elephant in room. All of our OLBs were converted from other positions and were a huge impact in every game. Does Mario make our OLBs better? At what price? Gonna be interesting to see this play out.

if nothing else, imagine brooks reed coming fresh off the bench. mario's an all pro and can slide inside, and makes for a mess of a rush 5-2 that wade loves by pulling cody, sliding mario to end and reed at WOLB. mario is better than both barwin and reed - who both had monster seasons. to improve there as well as create outstanding depth is something teams dream of.

the price is the only stopping point. if he wants to break the bank as the highest paid something or other, we cant do that. if he wants to be a well paid rush linebacker and make his career in wade's defense, we have to find a way to pay him.

Brandon420tx
01-15-2012, 06:21 PM
Yes, Unless Mario demands a contract we can't reasonably give him, we keep him, otherwise he walks and we suddenly have a need to get depth at OLB, but you don't just straight up let him walk first

gafftop
01-15-2012, 06:29 PM
This didn't take you long. But, at least you realize you're obsessed with this issue. Admitting you have a problem is the first step.


Please what is the 2nd step.

fiasco west
01-15-2012, 06:31 PM
I'm telling yall he won't go any where. When Rick asks Mcnair how much he can spend on Mario Mcnair will give him the thumbs up. Mcnair has always been a guy to be loyal to the decisions that they make.

Mario over Bush and Young was a HUGE decision that they got a lot of slack for. He's not going to just let the guy walk like that, especially for a guy that has produced.

The cap (if it even is a problem. I'm not going to pretend I know exactly what the Texans can do under the cap) is the only thing stopping them. Mario has been a face of this franchise and you just don't let those type of guys walk.

Lucky
01-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Please what is the 2nd step.
Drinking heavily after the Texans re-sign Mario.

WolverineFan
01-15-2012, 06:33 PM
Mario won't impact the cap too much. He's making almost $14 mil this year so your only looking at a max of $3-4 mil more a year (and I doubt he will command a $15 mil salary in year 1 of a new deal). Paying Foster is where the finances get hazy. You might see a few under performing vets sent packing as well as a few cap casualties (Jacoby Jones <cough>).

gafftop
01-15-2012, 06:38 PM
Drinking heavily after the Texans re-sign Mario.

You really know how to hurt me. May not be on this forum any more if that happens unless I am able to get on a computer in the psychiatric ward.

Brandon420tx
01-15-2012, 06:41 PM
I think you'd stay when we sign Mario. Someone needs to stay and criticize him on a constant basis as well as propose we trade him, every, single, offseason.

Honoring Earl 34
01-15-2012, 06:41 PM
I would franchise him after securing Myers and Foster .

Brandon420tx
01-15-2012, 06:42 PM
I would franchise him after securing Myers and Foster .

I would NOT franchise him. We're basically in a situation where we get a contract with him or he leaves. The tag would cost us over 17mil to keep mario

beerlover
01-15-2012, 06:46 PM
Mario is a goner. You gonna pay 17 million to bench Brooks Reed?

Texan_Bill
01-15-2012, 06:47 PM
Bye!!

Scooter
01-15-2012, 06:47 PM
dont franchise mario. he's making something like 14 mil this season ... with a new contract we can wiggle that number anywhere from 5-10mil next year.

Honoring Earl 34
01-15-2012, 06:48 PM
Mario is a goner. You gonna pay 17 million to bench Brooks Reed?

Or a 3 way rotation of JJ , Ninja , and Mario . Trade him for Larry Fitzgerald .

DocBar
01-15-2012, 06:49 PM
At this point, the best we can hope for is that a team in the NFC signs him this offseason. I just don't see any way we can sign him and still be able to take care of other FA's that are, imo, more deserving. What has MW done to merit that? He's a good player, but he's not irreplacable. Barwin did a superb job of replacing him and Reed did a superb job of replacing Barwin. This team will be fine with or without MW. Like I said earlier, make him a respectable offer (as an OLB) and see what happens. He's made a butt ton of $$ already, so let's see if we get a "hometown" discount and see if he wants to be part of something special here.

fiasco west
01-15-2012, 06:50 PM
Mario is a goner. You gonna pay 17 million to bench Brooks Reed?

Yes because Mario Williams is a much better player than Brooks Reed and still has at least 6 more years in his prime if not more as a DE.

beerlover
01-15-2012, 06:53 PM
Or a 3 way rotation of JJ , Ninja , and Mario . Trade him for Larry Fitzgerald .

Texans could draft Billy Winn in the first round for that & with the savings give Arian the contract extension he richly deserves.

Jackie Chiles
01-15-2012, 06:54 PM
What is the deadline to be under the cap for next season?

Brandon420tx
01-15-2012, 06:54 PM
What is the deadline to be under the cap for next season?

Its some point in the Preseason, don't remember what

Honoring Earl 34
01-15-2012, 06:57 PM
Texans could draft Billy Winn in the first round for that & with the savings give Arian the contract extension he richly deserves.

Mario is an asset it's just a matter of deciding how much . I'd think he's much more than Billy Winn .

WolverineFan
01-15-2012, 07:00 PM
Cap expands next year doesn't it? So there's some extra wiggle room right there to start.

Jackie Chiles
01-15-2012, 07:03 PM
Cap expands next year doesn't it? So there's some extra wiggle room right there to start.

True but I think it only gets about 3m higher next year. Year after that will see a much more significant bump from renegotiated TV deal if I recall correctly. Still, I don't see how it will be a problem for Rick to get a little creative during this process and make it work one way or another.

Lucky
01-15-2012, 07:09 PM
True but I think it only gets about 3m higher next year. Year after that will see a much more significant bump from renegotiated TV deal if I recall correctly.
I think you're right. And what many seem to forget is that re-signing Mario to a new contract dramatically reduces his cap hit from 2011 to 2012. Not as dramatically as letting him walk. But, we should know that McNair won't do that.

Lucky
01-15-2012, 07:11 PM
What is the deadline to be under the cap for next season?
At the start of the league's new year, just before free agency.

Jackie Chiles
01-15-2012, 07:22 PM
At the start of the league's new year, just before free agency.

That certainly makes it tough.

I just can't envision a scenario where we let Mario walk. Bob wants him, Wade wants him, Gary wants him, and I believe Mario wants to be here. His production and potential in this system gives him leverage, his injuries and the team's success give the team leverage. They can come to an understanding. There is a fair deal to be made for both sides.

Lucky
01-15-2012, 07:28 PM
There is a fair deal to be made for both sides.
I agree. Bottom line, you keep your good players because you don't know if you're getting another one. This team is built (now) to win on a suffocating defense and a dominating running game. With a healthy Mario, we could be looking at a Ravens (circa Y2K) type defense.

PapaL
01-15-2012, 07:32 PM
if nothing else, imagine brooks reed coming fresh off the bench. mario's an all pro and can slide inside, and makes for a mess of a rush 5-2 that wade loves by pulling cody, sliding mario to end and reed at WOLB. mario is better than both barwin and reed - who both had monster seasons. to improve there as well as create outstanding depth is something teams dream of.

the price is the only stopping point. if he wants to break the bank as the highest paid something or other, we cant do that. if he wants to be a well paid rush linebacker and make his career in wade's defense, we have to find a way to pay him.

I can totally appreciate that but last I looked his franchise tag is something insane like $22 million...that's a lot of money for a "any player. Can't deny he causes match up problems and makes others better simply by drawing coverage but how much is that worth?

Wouldn't Julius Peppers be a comparable matchup? He signed a six-year contract worth $91.5 million, with $42 million guaranteed in the first three years in Chicago. Is that something we could/would do?

Norg
01-15-2012, 07:39 PM
U think mario can defend these giant tigh ends that the nfl loves these days like gronk. Big on big might be the wayy to stop them

amazing80
01-15-2012, 08:05 PM
Tag and Trade, no other option

EVOLVIST
01-15-2012, 08:08 PM
Okay, then it's going to take a lot wiser head than mine to come up with a way to keep Mario Williams, reward Arian Foster and keep Chris Myers.

In addition, you have to get a legit #2 WR. You have to. There's no other way around it, when even most of the suckiest teams have a better WR corps than the Texans. We are one offensive weapon away from making a run at the whole thing, in my opinion.

Because with all that money going to Williams, Foster and Myers, it doesn't look probable that we'll make a big splash in free agency, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Manningham, et al...

Otherwise, we are banking on the draft alone to get a quality WR. The best will be gone by the time we pick....unless we sell the farm by moving up and getting Blackmon. He's the only sure fire future Andre Johnson.

So, can someone tell me how the Texans are going to hit all these beats?

Lucky
01-15-2012, 08:09 PM
Tag and Trade, no other option
The tag number is too high. It would cripple the other necessary moves the organization has to make. Re-signing Mario prior to free agency is the most cost effective option.

amazing80
01-15-2012, 08:09 PM
The tag number is too high. It would cripple the other necessary moves the organization has to make. Re-signing Mario prior to free agency is the most cost effective option.

Not if you get a deal in place to trade him immediately

Lucky
01-15-2012, 08:10 PM
Okay, then it's going to take a lot wiser head than mine to come up with a way to keep Mario Williams, reward Arian Foster and keep Chris Myers.
Myers will get a fair contract, but it won't be a cap killer. Not an issue, really.

Texan4Ever
01-15-2012, 08:11 PM
I hate doing this to Mario but I would shop him around and see if we can get some quality players to fill our needs and or draft picks. No one can deny that he is an established pass-rusher and despite being injured, he's still worth a gamble for teams needing a pass-rusher.

amazing80
01-15-2012, 08:12 PM
Myers will get a fair contract, but it won't be a cap killer. Not an issue, really.

I think the point is, coupled with the other 2, signing anyone to a good long term deal will be VERY hard to do, Mario will expect a HUGE pay day and crippling our cap for one guy, who btw, isn't a necessity on our team, is foolish. Would you lose Mario if it meant signing another legit corner and a wideout? Thats the decision that it comes to

Honoring Earl 34
01-15-2012, 08:13 PM
What if Wade wants Mario .

ArlingtonTexan
01-15-2012, 08:14 PM
Tag and Trade, no other option

Even under the old CBA, this did not happen that often (I know Jared Allen) and I was reading somewhere that something in the new rules it is even less likely. Will post if I can put my hands on it.

Lucky
01-15-2012, 08:20 PM
...Mario will expect a HUGE pay day and crippling our cap for one guy...
Mario's cap number was $14 million this season. Did it cripple the cap and keep the Texans from signing Joseph and Manning? And if/when Mario re-signs, it will be less than his 2011 cap number.

You don't want Mario re-signed and think he's unnecessary. OK. But at least get your facts straight if you are going to comment on the cap.

DocBar
01-15-2012, 08:26 PM
Mario's cap number was $14 million this season. Did it cripple the cap and keep the Texans from signing Joseph and Manning? And if/when Mario re-signs, it will be less than his 2011 cap number.

You don't want Mario re-signed and think he's unnecessary. OK. But at least get your facts straight if you are going to comment on the cap.You do realize that we ended the season with less than a million to spare on the cap?

Lucky
01-15-2012, 08:29 PM
You do realize that we ended the season with less than a million to spare on the cap?
Which refutes the "McNair is cheap" argument. Really, the team should spend to the cap every year to ensure the best product. It's not like ticket holders will get reimbursed for the difference.

Scooter
01-15-2012, 08:34 PM
I can totally appreciate that but last I looked his franchise tag is something insane like $22 million...that's a lot of money for a "any player. Can't deny he causes match up problems and makes others better simply by drawing coverage but how much is that worth?

Wouldn't Julius Peppers be a comparable matchup? He signed a six-year contract worth $91.5 million, with $42 million guaranteed in the first three years in Chicago. Is that something we could/would do?

you're exactly right. if mario wants peppers' money to be the "IT" guy as a defensive end banking on linebacker sacks ... we work a sign and trade or franchise and trade. if he wants top 5ish linebacker money in a deal structured to help the texans, we sign him long term. it's always about money, until championships come into play ... and mario has a chance to get both with the texans if he doesnt focus only on a payday.

in no way do we franchise mario unless we are dealing him. we can cut his impact on next year's cap by almost half and free up space with a long term deal. there are plenty of bad and middling teams willing to offer him a "isht-ton" of money to LDE for them, and he may take it. we're willing to offer him many tens of millions to play the "IT" man on wade's career defining 3-4 on a team that is over the hump and superbowl bound. it's really his decision at this point.

DocBar
01-15-2012, 08:41 PM
Which refutes the "McNair is cheap" argument. Really, the team should spend to the cap every year to ensure the best product. It's not like ticket holders will get reimbursed for the difference.I've never been in the "McNair's cheap" camp. I would love to keep MW, but only if it's cap friendly, but I just don't see that as realistic. If we could resign MW at less than $10 mil a year, I say go for it. I'm more worried about being able to sign multiple FA's, who make our team what it is, than signing 1 who is often injured.
Check out this list (http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/defensive-end/) and tell me MW has outperformed players making much less than him. This is where the old CBA made top 10 rookie contracts such a burden on teams.

ArlingtonTexan
01-15-2012, 08:41 PM
Which refutes the "McNair is cheap" argument. Really, the team should spend to the cap every year to ensure the best product. It's not like ticket holders will get reimbursed for the difference.

McNair has never been cheap. In fact, overall he has spent poorly versus not enough over his tenure. McNair is cheap equals the Texans didn't sign the name brand guys that I thought they should.

Brandon420tx
01-15-2012, 08:52 PM
Even under the old CBA, this did not happen that often (I know Jared Allen) and I was reading somewhere that something in the new rules it is even less likely. Will post if I can put my hands on it.

I'm 90% sure there are rules preventing that in the new CBA now. If you franchise someone your stuck paying the money. I think the players pushed for it because they felt owners had too much power over players when using the Tag

Lucky
01-15-2012, 09:03 PM
I've never been in the "McNair's cheap" camp. I would love to keep MW, but only if it's cap friendly, but I just don't see that as realistic. If we could resign MW at less than $10 mil a year, I say go for it.
Williams contract won't average less than $10 million/season, but his 2012 (and probably 2013) cap number will be considerably less. At some point, the Texans would have to re-evaluate Williams contract. Which is how practically all of the top contracts are handled. 2012 would not be an issue. And the Texans should be concerned about winning a championship in 2012.

DocBar
01-15-2012, 09:08 PM
Williams contract won't average less than $10 million/season, but his 2012 (and probably 2013) cap number will be considerably less. At some point, the Texans would have to re-evaluate Williams contract. Which is how practically all of the top contracts are handled. 2012 would not be an issue. And the Texans should be concerned about winning a championship in 2012.What do you consider "considerably less"? MW made $13.8 mil this year. $10 mil or less would be "considerably less" to me.

TdotTexas2Step
01-15-2012, 09:09 PM
The pass rush on our team is elite and really doesn't "need" Mario.

But a part of me just would love to somehow retain Mario for a reasonable price, if only to see how insane it would be to have a rotation of Williams, Barwin, and Reed rushing from the outside. Consistent crazy pressure that would NEVER let up.

JCTexan
01-15-2012, 09:10 PM
The hardest thing (IMO) about paying Mario Williams is the fact that Houston already has his replacement in Brooks Reed. Do you pay Williams 15 million per year when you already have his replacement ready to play?

Brandon420tx
01-15-2012, 09:10 PM
We should give up Lucky, this is the best chance for Mario to be gone, and those people that want him out know this. Alot of people also don't realize that the first season in these football contracts are usually the lowest, unless the contract is specifically front loaded.

Tagging and trading is not going to happen. Sorry to everyone that wants to go that route.

That means the people that want him gone can only hope he leaves in FA. Right now I believe its a 4/5 chance he's resigns with the Texans. So a 20% chance he walks in free agency. It will only happen if he wants so much money that the Texans won't be able to make the deal and sign our high priority Free Agents. In order for that to happen he'd have to ask for alot. Like a staggering amount.

His cap hit next season will likely be 7-9Million, and escalate each season there after

Jackie Chiles
01-15-2012, 09:14 PM
The pass rush on our team is elite and really doesn't "need" Mario.

But a part of me just would love to somehow retain Mario for a reasonable price, if only to see how insane it would be to have a rotation of Williams, Barwin, and Reed rushing from the outside. Consistent crazy pressure that would NEVER let up.

We were definitely elite in the pass rush department but this defense can improve on the 44 sacks we got over the course of the regular season. I really believe Mario could help push that total north of 50. Outside of great quarterback play the pass rush is as important as it gets.

gafftop
01-15-2012, 09:19 PM
We should give up Lucky, this is the best chance for Mario to be gone, and those people that want him out know this. Alot of people also don't realize that the first season in these football contracts are usually the lowest, unless the contract is specifically front loaded.

Tagging and trading is not going to happen. Sorry to everyone that wants to go that route.
That means the people that want him gone can only hope he leaves in FA. Right now I believe its a 4/5 chance he's resigns with the Texans. So a 20% chance he walks in free agency. It will only happen if he wants so much money that the Texans won't be able to make the deal and sign our high priority Free Agents. In order for that to happen he'd have to ask for alot. Like a staggering amount.

His cap hit next season will likely be 7-9Million, and escalate each season there after

I also did not understand how tag and trade would work. If you don't tag can't Mario just go out and get the best offer he can get from anyone? I have a feeling someone is going to offer him stupid money that we will not match. Why would he sign before he can test the open market? This is something I have never understood.

Sorry I never wanted him to leave in FA this year I wanted to trade him last year when we could have gotten something for him. What is occurring now was inevitable. I will be very interested in how all this turns out.

WolverineFan
01-15-2012, 09:38 PM
I also did not understand how tag and trade would work. If you don't tag can't Mario just go out and get the best offer he can get from anyone? I have a feeling someone is going to offer him stupid money that we will not match. Why would he sign before he can test the open market? This is something I have never understood.

Sorry I never wanted him to leave in FA this year I wanted to trade him last year when we could have gotten something for him. What is occurring now was inevitable. I will be very interested in how all this turns out.

Texans will get some time to negotiate with him before he hits the market. They could come to a mutually acceptable agreement or he could decline and hit the open market and get ridiculous offers. I have a feeling he would be open to staying in Houston and not hitting the market at all though.

ChampionTexan
01-15-2012, 09:41 PM
I'm 90% sure there are rules preventing that in the new CBA now. If you franchise someone your stuck paying the money. I think the players pushed for it because they felt owners had too much power over players when using the Tag

I'm pretty sure you can trade them once they've signed the franchise tender, but what you can't do is franchise them, and trade those franchise rights to another team if the tender offer hasn't been signed by the player.

This is straight out of Article 10 of the current CBA (Page 49 if you have a copy)
Section 8. No Assignment: No Club may assign or otherwise transfer to any other Club the exclusive negotiating rights or any Right of First Refusal it may have for any Franchise Player, nor any Right of First Refusal it may have for any Transition Player, nor any designation rights it may have.

There is no other discussion of transfer, assignment or trade in Article 10 - which for the record is titled "Franchise and Transition Players".

So if you franchise someone and can't get them to sign the tender (ala Dunta Robinson), you can't trade their rights - you can however rescind the franchise tag and immediately make the player an UFA. Philly did this with Akers last off-season, and I believe Seattle has done it in the past also.

Finally, Section 2 (k) of Article 10 maintains that if a team and a franchised player don't reach a long term agreement by July 15th, then no contract longer than one year may be signed before the final game of the upcoming regular season. If this applies to a team trading for the player (and I'm not sure whether it does or not), then it would effectively render any franchised player untradable after that date - even if they'd signed the tender.

burro
01-15-2012, 09:52 PM
I'm much too lazy (and drunk) to go back and see if this has been mentioned already, but has anyone entertained the idea of moving Mario to NT? He certainly has the size and strength to be a fit, plus he is a pretty good bull rusher. I think he could be an improvement over Cody who is the closest thing we have to a weak link in the front 7.

ArlingtonTexan
01-15-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm much too lazy (and drunk) to go back and see if this has been mentioned already, but has anyone entertained the idea of moving Mario to NT? He certainly has the size and strength to be a fit, plus he is a pretty good bull rusher. I think he could be an improvement over Cody who is the closest thing we have to a weak link in the front 7.

Well, you did say drunk so I will give you a pass, but he does not have the true body for it. He actually is not big (thick) enough for that and is built more like an overgrown TE than more bottom heavy inside guys.

PapaL
01-15-2012, 10:25 PM
Okay, then it's going to take a lot wiser head than mine to come up with a way to keep Mario Williams, reward Arian Foster and keep Chris Myers.

In addition, you have to get a legit #2 WR. You have to. There's no other way around it, when even most of the suckiest teams have a better WR corps than the Texans. We are one offensive weapon away from making a run at the whole thing, in my opinion.

Because with all that money going to Williams, Foster and Myers, it doesn't look probable that we'll make a big splash in free agency, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Manningham, et al...

Otherwise, we are banking on the draft alone to get a quality WR. The best will be gone by the time we pick....unless we sell the farm by moving up and getting Blackmon. He's the only sure fire future Andre Johnson.

So, can someone tell me how the Texans are going to hit all these beats?

To answer your last question, they don't. No team has even ever addressed all it's needs in an offseason. You sign who you can, draft who you can, and hope like hell it works out. There is no sure fire anything in this league. Remember when AJ first came out and was dropping balls in practice? Some said he had no hands and wasn't WR enough because he barely spoke. Now look at him.

burro
01-15-2012, 10:31 PM
Well, you did say drunk so I will give you a pass, but he does not have the true body for it. He actually is not big (thick) enough for that and is built more like an overgrown TE than more bottom heavy inside guys.

You have a point, but I have a hard time seeing a player who is 6-6 and 283 pounds being too small for NT, especially when their MO is bull rushing. Cody, for example is 6-4 and 301. Whats to say Mario couldn't put on about 15 pounds and play NT? If we're going to keep him, I think it would be worth an experiment - but then again, Wade Phillips is the defensive genius, not I.

PapaL
01-15-2012, 10:33 PM
I'm much too lazy (and drunk) to go back and see if this has been mentioned already, but has anyone entertained the idea of moving Mario to NT? He certainly has the size and strength to be a fit, plus he is a pretty good bull rusher. I think he could be an improvement over Cody who is the closest thing we have to a weak link in the front 7.

Well, you did say drunk so I will give you a pass, but he does not have the true body for it. He actually is not big (thick) enough for that and is built more like an overgrown TE than more bottom heavy inside guys.

This has been THE best exchange on this board today. Honesty and a pass. :shots: :clap:

EVOLVIST
01-15-2012, 11:04 PM
To answer your last question, they don't. No team has even ever addressed all it's needs in an offseason. You sign who you can, draft who you can, and hope like hell it works out. There is no sure fire anything in this league. Remember when AJ first came out and was dropping balls in practice? Some said he had no hands and wasn't WR enough because he barely spoke. Now look at him.

You're right. And that's why about half of my questions were mostly rhetorical.

A team has to base where they're going in the future on the known quantities first, before they bank on something as unknown as the draft (as a big example).

Known Quantity #1 - Without Mario Williams, and even if Conner Barwin, JJ Watt, Brooks Reed, Antonio Smith and Shaun Cody don't improve their game, they still supplied a pass rush for our team that kicked all kinds of ass. It is known that this defense thrived without Mario Williams.

Known Quantity #2 - Arian Foster is a special player. He's not just simply one of hundreds of halfback that you can plug into the system and live off of that. You have to pay him.

Known Quantity #3 - Don't bank on a young WR draftee coming in being a legit #2. You have to go with what's known, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Mannignham - someone who is a proven commodity, who is not getting their fair due on another team. You can only make a deal like that fly with freed up money.

Known Quantity #4 - Keep your offensive line together.

After that, once you've tackled the knowns, then you go into the draft taking your chances with the unknowns. If you let Mario walk, then hey, we need depth at a 3-4 OLB, well, there's Courtney Upshaw in Round #1. Rounds #2-#3 OL/WR/CB... hey take your pick...Lestar Jean is on our roster, as well...and I'm saying that Lestar is already better than Jacoby Jones.

In other words, the possibilities are endless after you take care of the knowns. We're finally lucky be in that position.

Dutchrudder
01-15-2012, 11:09 PM
You have a point, but I have a hard time seeing a player who is 6-6 and 283 pounds being too small for NT, especially when their MO is bull rushing. Cody, for example is 6-4 and 301. Whats to say Mario couldn't put on about 15 pounds and play NT? If we're going to keep him, I think it would be worth an experiment - but then again, Wade Phillips is the defensive genius, not I.

I'm pretty sure Mario is 6-8.

burro
01-15-2012, 11:14 PM
I'm pretty sure Mario is 6-8.

NFL.com has him at 6-6

http://www.nfl.com/player/mariowilliams/2495982/profile

ArlingtonTexan
01-16-2012, 12:05 AM
You have a point, but I have a hard time seeing a player who is 6-6 and 283 pounds being too small for NT, especially when their MO is bull rushing. Cody, for example is 6-4 and 301. Whats to say Mario couldn't put on about 15 pounds and play NT? If we're going to keep him, I think it would be worth an experiment - but then again, Wade Phillips is the defensive genius, not I.

Wade has used non-traditional NTs before, so I will also defer to him, but taking a guy you thought was an OLB 1 year and then moving him an even more ackward position for his type seems like a waste of resources. There is not just a down-in, down-out NT with Mario's height and relative lack of bulk. The taller NTs in the league are generally 320 plus.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 12:10 AM
No one seems to be talking about Myers' contract situation, but, for me, he is number 1 priority. He's the lynchpin of our O-line and that makes him key to Foster's success.


I'm a fan... I'd pay him (some) but, it's the system. You can find a guy to replace Chris Myers, if you know where to look & Kubiak knows where to look.

If Chris proved to be a team leader with the heart of a champion, then yeah, do whatever it takes to keep him. But we won't know if Chris is that guy or not, the locker room would, but we wouldn't.

The only thing I ask, in all this Mario talk, is that we don't make it a "Mario or playertobenamed" scenario. We don't know what the cap is going to be & we don't know how "creative" Rick Smith can get with the numbers.

We didn't have the money to sign Joseph & Manning. But we did.

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 12:12 AM
I'm a fan... I'd pay him (some) but, it's the system. You can find a guy to replace Chris Myers, if you know where to look & Kubiak knows where to look.

If Chris proved to be a team leader with the heart of a champion, then yeah, do whatever it takes to keep him. But we won't know if Chris is that guy or not, the locker room would, but we wouldn't.

The only thing I ask, in all this Mario talk, is that we don't make it a "Mario or playertobenamed" scenario. We don't know what the cap is going to be & we don't know how "creative" Rick Smith can get with the numbers.

We didn't have the money to sign Joseph & Manning. But we did.

If the Eagles can go to town like they did last offseason and still be under cap, we'll be fine retaining our players

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 12:23 AM
At this point, the best we can hope for is that a team in the NFC signs him this offseason. I just don't see any way we can sign him and still be able to take care of other FA's that are, imo, more deserving. What has MW done to merit that? He's a good player, but he's not irreplacable. Barwin did a superb job of replacing him and Reed did a superb job of replacing Barwin. This team will be fine with or without MW. Like I said earlier, make him a respectable offer (as an OLB) and see what happens. He's made a butt ton of $$ already, so let's see if we get a "hometown" discount and see if he wants to be part of something special here.

I'm sure GreenBAy was thinking something similar when they had the #2 defense last year..... where'd that go?

Barwin had a promising rookie season, what happened his sophomore season?

Demeco was a beast..... he missed 10 games last year?

If Mario wants to be here next year, we sign him. Period. Everything he's done, he's done without a secondary & without playmakers beside him.

Imagine double digit sacks from Barwin & Mario, 5+ from Antonio, JJ, Reed.... a couple from Jamison, Mitchell, Cody, Nading...

PHAROAH
01-16-2012, 12:37 AM
Look guys the best move is to do a sign and trade with a team in the NFC that needs a pass rusher like Carolina, Tampa Bay, Seattle, Detroit, Atlanta, St. Louis etc. We can't afford a 21 Million Dollar a year contract for a guy who was hurt and a project as an OLB in the first place. Let's move on and get a player and late first or early 2nd round & 4th round pick and keep it moving. We need the cap space to resign Arian Foster, Chris Myers & Neil Rackers and possible incoming Free Agents.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 12:59 AM
We can't afford a 21 Million Dollar a year contract for a guy who was hurt and a project as an OLB in the first place.

Can we afford a $6 or $7 Million/year contract? Because that's what it would be, at least closer to it.

I know it doesn't sound right to you, but trust me. It's more likely that we'll sign him to $6 M/yr than a $21M/yr contract..... the one you're talking about does not happen.

Mario is making a little less than $14M this year. If we franchise him at 125% of this years salary, it's only $17M That, we cannot do... I mean we can, we did it with Dunta. But it wasn't worth it then & it won't be worth it with Mario, Cushing, Andre, Foster..... anyone.

burro
01-16-2012, 01:27 AM
Look guys the best move is to do a sign and trade with a team in the NFC that needs a pass rusher like Carolina, Tampa Bay, Seattle, Detroit, Atlanta, St. Louis etc. We can't afford a 21 Million Dollar a year contract for a guy who was hurt and a project as an OLB in the first place. Let's move on and get a player and late first or early 2nd round & 4th round pick and keep it moving. We need the cap space to resign Arian Foster, Chris Myers & Neil Rackers and possible incoming Free Agents.

Really? How much does a kicker cost? Especially a mediocre one like Rackers...

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 04:46 AM
I'm a fan... I'd pay him (some) but, it's the system. You can find a guy to replace Chris Myers, if you know where to look & Kubiak knows where to look.

If Chris proved to be a team leader with the heart of a champion, then yeah, do whatever it takes to keep him. But we won't know if Chris is that guy or not, the locker room would, but we wouldn't.

The only thing I ask, in all this Mario talk, is that we don't make it a "Mario or playertobenamed" scenario. We don't know what the cap is going to be & we don't know how "creative" Rick Smith can get with the numbers.

We didn't have the money to sign Joseph & Manning. But we did.

I know this is getting really far off topic I get the feeling that all the stars have aligned in putting together our O-line.

Just have a think about how bad Myers looked his first two years in Steel Blue, could have been due to a number of factors, that high ankle sprain is often the thing that really gets the blame.

But I really do worry, maybe, just maybe, the issue was that the role Myers is asked to play in this system, of constantly passing off his DL assignment to the next man along and getting up and breaking an LB, maybe that is such an unnatural thing for a OC to do that it will take 3 years to unlearn and relearn.

Also, we had coach Gibbs teaching this O-line at the point when we had Myers and everyone else coming in, and learning this system. How much did that help?

When Wade Smith was brought in and plugged straight in, the guy who was already starting was still on the team, you either improve the position or remain at the same level.

If Myers walk and we replace him, we don't get that opportunity. He's a lot like Arian Foster to me, in that here we have a guy who is a perfect fit for the system, a total product of the system because the system fits some fantastic talent traits the guy has, yet would he do as well elsewhere? And would the next guy you bring in do as well here? Not a risk I'm prepared to take.

srrono
01-16-2012, 05:57 AM
bump__

srrono
01-16-2012, 07:05 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/pos...-franchise-tag

Perhaps the biggest question that will hover over the Houston Texans after the season ends, no matter how it ends, is whether to extend defensive end-turned-outside linebacker Mario Williams.

With Conner Barwin and Brooks Reed as their outside linebackers since Williams suffered a season-ending torn pectoral muscle on Oct. 9, the Texans have done just fine. They rattled off a seven-game winning streak that just ended and clinched their first AFC South title and playoff berth.

Williams is a dominant force. The Texans’ defense could have been even better with him. But he’s been slowed by a couple of injuries, and a pass-rusher of his caliber will cost a fortune on the free market. Houston extended some players at the start of camp to make their salary cap work, and he wasn’t in the mix.

“I love the Houston Texans; the team’s been great, the organization’s been great since I’ve been here,” Williams said this week. “At the end of the day, it’s business. Whatever decision they make, at this point I’m just trying to help the team focus on winning. ... I couldn’t care less about my contract right now. The big picture right now is just for us to do well and fight through the injuries.”

I’ve frequently been asked if I think he will be re-signed, and my answer has been that I think the Texans will use the franchise tag on him.

I figured, too, that a battle over his position could ensue with regard to the tag, like what the Ravens and Terrell Suggs went through in 2008 and 2009.

The Ravens argued Suggs was a linebacker, as he was listed as one on the Pro Bowl ballot. Suggs' representation argued he played more than half of his snaps as a pass-rushing end.

Suggs filed a grievance on getting the right franchise number and the sides finally agreed on a hybrid figure, which was in between the defensive end and linebacker number.

Asking around about the tag, I learned that rough estimates were just given to the clubs.

SportsNation

What should the Texans do with Mario Williams during the offseason?

Sign him long term
Use the franchise tag on him
Allow him to test the free-agent market

In the new CBA, franchise numbers look to be going down. It’s still regarded as “the average of the five-highest paid players at the position from the previous season,” but those words don’t mean what they used to, and it’s actually the average of the five-highest paid players at the position as a share of the salary cap over the past five seasons.

Skip ahead if you don’t care for legalese, or dive in if you want the actual CBA language on it. Here is how a franchise number is now calculated:

(1) Summing the amounts of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 2011 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012 League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the 2007-2011 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for the 2012 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average")


So the owners got the numbers tamped down in the new deal. The players will get smaller percentages of a larger cap, but until there is a real cap boom, the resulting number will be lower than it has been.

The safety franchise tag, for instance, accounted for 8.8 percent of the $120 million salary cap last season, but will now be worth roughly 5.1 percent of the cap.

So what’s the difference between a tagged linebacker and end going to look like under the 2012 cap, expected to be about $125 million?

The defensive end number will be roughly 8.8 percent of the cap, down from 12.9.

The linebacker number will be roughly 7.3 percent, down from 10 percent.

So as an end, Williams would get an $11 million tag, and as a linebacker it would be $8.125 million. If the Texans choose to hold onto Williams with a tag, the sides could argue about the $2.875 million difference.

Is Williams an outside linebacker in the Texans 3-4 system? Yes. Have the Texans maintained it’s not very different from what he did as a defensive end, particularly in the nickel package? They have.

So despite clear CBA language that says the tag is determined by the position “at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year,” there could still be a debate over semantics -- is Williams a linebacker if he’s not in a three-point stance, or if he’s lined up where an end lines up is he an end no matter his stance or the team’s scheme?

Williams’ agent, Ben Dogra, didn’t answer an email inquiry about the possible debate.

“If it comes to [a franchise tag], then so be it,” Williams said. “I’m open to whatever, we’ll discuss that. I understand the way things work with salary caps and so forth. Whatever could help the team out, me and my agent will look at every option and go through that.

For tag purposes is he a linebacker or an end?

“I don’t know, I have no idea,” he said. "At the end of the day, obviously I’m still, I am a defensive end. I don’t know how that would go down or whatever. I’m sure either way it will work itself out.

“There are a lot of smart guys up there who can move things around and figure stuff out. I’ll let them handle and my agent that while I support the team anyway I can and get healthy and be ready to play next year.”

Perki-Perk
01-16-2012, 07:22 AM
Of course you bring Mario back! I have 2 of his jerseys!!! Do you know how mad I was when the Rockets tried to trade Scola for Pau Gasol!? Pau freakin Gasol, man! I'd rather watch a losing team with the heart those boys leave on the court every night that get Pau Gasol..

My Bad, went off on a tangent. So, You bring Mario back. Can you imagine how much that will free up JJ and Connor!?! I also think Reed gets a lot more snaps on different packages. He's definitely earned it!

Oh, and what am I going to do with my #90 Jerseys if he walks?? We need to keep everyone on this team.....except Jacoby....come on buddy...:pissed:

amazing80
01-16-2012, 07:49 AM
Mario's cap number was $14 million this season. Did it cripple the cap and keep the Texans from signing Joseph and Manning? And if/when Mario re-signs, it will be less than his 2011 cap number.

You don't want Mario re-signed and think he's unnecessary. OK. But at least get your facts straight if you are going to comment on the cap.

You are picking ONE LINERS and trying to bend them into some fantasy of yours. We paid mario alot this season, and we signed some guys YES, but we have A LOT MORE players coming up who mean more to this team than Mario. Its not about being able to afford him, its being able to afford everyone else afterwards.

Sorry, but Mario has NEVER been a dominator and its time we move on from his injury prone, under achieving over paid self. I love Mario, but the love doesn't translate to wins. We suck vs the run with mario because he runs himself out of plays ALL THE TIME. I am willing to bet Rice goes for much more than he did yesterday with Mario in there....have you ever seen Mario take over a game like Watt? Nope....MAYBE the Broncos game a few seasons ago with Cutler.....

Mario is great against crap LTs or TEs, he sucks ve top LTs and it non existent far too much to be paid roughly 1/10 of our cap.....Time to move on and get what we can for him and use the money to sign a piece this season and have money left for Schaub or Foster next season.

dalemurphy
01-16-2012, 08:23 AM
Mario's franchise tag next year would be about $17 million. He is guaranteed a 20% raise under the old and the new CBA... This year he made over $14 million in salary.

We can not sign him. It would be the death blow to this team. Here are some of the contracts coming due:

Chris Myers (FA- this year!)
Arian Foster (already been promised a new deal this off-season)

1 Year left:
Duane Brown
Matt Schaub
Glover Quin
James Casey
Connor Barwin
Tim Jamison
Shaun Cody

This isn't a complete list either... Why on earth would the Texans break up this group in order to keep Mario? It would be one of the most foolish and costly decisions I've seen. All the Mario fans should prepare to say "goodbye" to him in March.

gafftop
01-16-2012, 08:25 AM
Can we afford a $6 or $7 Million/year contract? Because that's what it would be, at least closer to it.

I know it doesn't sound right to you, but trust me. It's more likely that we'll sign him to $6 M/yr than a $21M/yr contract..... the one you're talking about does not happen.

Mario is making a little less than $14M this year. If we franchise him at 125% of this years salary, it's only $17M That, we cannot do... I mean we can, we did it with Dunta. But it wasn't worth it then & it won't be worth it with Mario, Cushing, Andre, Foster..... anyone.

Thunder,
We can afford a $7 million a year contract for Mario as long as we are able to get out of it after one year with no harmful long term cap effects. I still don't understand how that happens. Please explain in more detail. Are we talking say a 3 yr contract 7mill 1st year, 8 mill 2nd, ... with no upfront payment ? I could even go with some incentives as long as we are able to get out after the 1st year for say $8-9 million total.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking Mario will get a five year $90 million+ offer from someone. I obviously don't think we can match that offer unless we can also get out of that one for say a total of $10 mill total with no cap hit later.

If the post above is correct and you could franchise for $8-9 million for one year I could live with that. Mario would still be in a contract year so i think the effort would be there. If healthy he WILL help.

I don't hate the player Mario, in fact he was beginning to come on without a doubt before the injury, but I do hate his cap hit and what it kept the Texans from doing this year and what a cap hit like that for the next 4-5 years would keep the Texans from doing. I did like Mario the asset last year in what he possibly could have gotten for the Texans if he had been traded. That is in the past. What happens now?

gafftop
01-16-2012, 08:41 AM
You are picking ONE LINERS and trying to bend them into some fantasy of yours. We paid mario alot this season, and we signed some guys YES, but we have A LOT MORE players coming up who mean more to this team than Mario. Its not about being able to afford him, its being able to afford everyone else afterwards.

Sorry, but Mario has NEVER been a dominator and its time we move on from his injury prone, under achieving over paid self. I love Mario, but the love doesn't translate to wins. We suck vs the run with mario because he runs himself out of plays ALL THE TIME. I am willing to bet Rice goes for much more than he did yesterday with Mario in there....have you ever seen Mario take over a game like Watt? Nope....MAYBE the Broncos game a few seasons ago with Cutler.....

Mario is great against crap LTs or TEs, he sucks ve top LTs and it non existent far too much to be paid roughly 1/10 of our cap.....Time to move on and get what we can for him and use the money to sign a piece this season and have money left for Schaub or Foster next season.

I was really trying to understand, mellow, be reasonable, compromise,..... when it comes to the Mario issue with my last post, I was trying to take the 2nd step...

Then I read this post and realized I must be true to myself. I can't be a politician. Sorry, screw compromise lol. I have felt what was written above for a couple of years. Did any of you read the article a couple of days ago when the writer said he was glad the Country Club attitude was gone out of the Texans line or locker room I can't remember exactly how he put it. I wonder what he was talking about. Can't see Watt putting up with any Country Club BS.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 09:21 AM
Thunder,
We can afford a $7 million a year contract for Mario as long as we are able to get out of it after one year with no harmful long term cap effects. I still don't understand how that happens. Please explain in more detail. Are we talking say a 3 yr contract 7mill 1st year, 8 mill 2nd, ... with no upfront payment ? I could even go with some incentives as long as we are able to get out after the 1st year for say $8-9 million total.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking Mario will get a five year $90 million+ offer from someone. I obviously don't think we can match that offer unless we can also get out of that one for say a total of $10 mill total with no cap hit later.

If the post above is correct and you could franchise for $8-9 million for one year I could live with that. Mario would still be in a contract year so i think the effort would be there. If healthy he WILL help.

I don't hate the player Mario, in fact he was beginning to come on without a doubt before the injury, but I do hate his cap hit and what it kept the Texans from doing this year and what a cap hit like that for the next 4-5 years would keep the Texans from doing. I did like Mario the asset last year in what he possibly could have gotten for the Texans if he had been traded. That is in the past. What happens now?

Can't franchise Mario for less than $17m you've also got to make up your mind to keep Mario for three years. Think about it this way, even with his injuries, he's been as productive as everyone on our defense, other than Barwin, without the benefit of all the playmakers we have now & the 2nd ranked pass defense.

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 09:26 AM
Mario's franchise tag next year would be about $17 million. He is guaranteed a 20% raise under the old and the new CBA... This year he made over $14 million in salary.

We can not sign him. It would be the death blow to this team. Here are some of the contracts coming due:

Chris Myers (FA- this year!)
Arian Foster (already been promised a new deal this off-season)

1 Year left:
Duane Brown
Matt Schaub
Glover Quin
James Casey
Connor Barwin
Tim Jamison
Shaun Cody

This isn't a complete list either... Why on earth would the Texans break up this group in order to keep Mario? It would be one of the most foolish and costly decisions I've seen. All the Mario fans should prepare to say "goodbye" to him in March.

Dale, firstly, you've just regurgatated the point I made in this very thread earlier. Secondly, there is a very limited number of people who truly understand the cap ramifications of Mario's contract situation, those who are are contractually obliged not to post on this forum.

The fact is, say Mario gets a 6 year, $90 million contract off us, people have talked about the possibility of him signing a 'cap friendly' deal for the team, others have claimed that such an idea is a fallacy and no one would be willing to sign for less than their market value purely to 'help out'.

What they ignore, is that you can sign a cap/team friendly deal for the same $$$$ as an unfriendly one, but structure it to help the team out. Would Mario be willing to do this? Of course he would! He's done it before and he'll do it again.

So you take your idea of a $90 mill 6 year contract, you put $40 million in the last 2 years to give Mario the nice headlines, and you pay him, in reality $50 million over 4, with the vast majority of that $50 million guaranteed. That is how we arrive at a cap figure of ~$12million and that is how we can keep Mario on a team friendly deal.

I've looked at some contracts we currently have that I'd consider dead weight, and have detailed those in this thread, which could easily save us ~$10 million next year, which could help us to lock up both Myers and Foster for this year.

As for next years 'problem';

Duane Brown 2012 cap hit is $1.4 million, this one may be a big jump

Matt Schaub 2012 cap hit is $8.4 million, not likely to jump up too much from that point

Glover Quin 2012 = $607k, may need to find an extra mill or so per season?

James Casey 2012 = $611k, not really a necessity to keep, wouldn't cost more than an etra 500k-1m though?

Connor Barwin 2012= $917k, another one where we may need to find a good amount of cap space in order to make it work

Tim Jamison 2012 = $565k not going to break the bank as a depth player

Shaun Cody 2012 = $2.25 million (was $3.5 million this season so we've already saved some!) Again, with Mitchell coming on, and being a position we could try to upgrade, this could well be a position where we save money rather than spend it.

So all in all, I can fully understand how re-signing Mario wouldn't necessarily ruin our chances of signing our FA's the next offseason, especially if the new TV deal increases the cap by a significant figure. It would also be reasonable to consider that any new contract negotiations will take full advantage of the new rules regarding 'benefits' which gives us an extra $20 mill to wiggle around and it's probably fair to assume that pre-existing contracts don't optimize that new rule.

For me, if we can find WR2, NT, ILB, DE, S depth in the draft, then we'll be in a strong position to continue growing without needing to spend big in FA, without being tied to having to resign depth players above their value, and that will stand us in good stead negotiating with these guys.

It isn't inconcievable that the FO has everything all mapped out and have made a decision they are comfortable with well in advance and know exactly what they are/aren't able to do about Mario.

I do find it hard to believe though, that on the basis of having drafted Reed & Watt, they would have gone out and spent a boatload of cash on JoJo and Manning if it completely took away their ability to resign Mario, without knowing how well the rookies were going to play.

And that is why I'm 100% certain that they can (if they chose to) resign Mario within the cap, and 90% certain that they will choose to.

Or maybe you are a better cap guru than anyone Rick Smith has employed.

dalemurphy
01-16-2012, 09:34 AM
Dale, firstly, you've just regurgatated the point I made in this very thread earlier. Secondly, there is a very limited number of people who truly understand the cap ramifications of Mario's contract situation, those who are are contractually obliged not to post on this forum.

The fact is, say Mario gets a 6 year, $90 million contract off us, people have talked about the possibility of him signing a 'cap friendly' deal for the team, others have claimed that such an idea is a fallacy and no one would be willing to sign for less than their market value purely to 'help out'.

What they ignore, is that you can sign a cap/team friendly deal for the same $$$$ as an unfriendly one, but structure it to help the team out. Would Mario be willing to do this? Of course he would! He's done it before and he'll do it again.

So you take your idea of a $90 mill 6 year contract, you put $40 million in the last 2 years to give Mario the nice headlines, and you pay him, in reality $50 million over 4, with the vast majority of that $50 million guaranteed. That is how we arrive at a cap figure of ~$12million and that is how we can keep Mario on a team friendly deal.

I've looked at some contracts we currently have that I'd consider dead weight, and have detailed those in this thread, which could easily save us ~$10 million next year, which could help us to lock up both Myers and Foster for this year.

As for next years 'problem';

Duane Brown 2012 cap hit is $1.4 million, this one may be a big jump

Matt Schaub 2012 cap hit is $8.4 million, not likely to jump up too much from that point

Glover Quin 2012 = $607k, may need to find an extra mill or so per season?

James Casey 2012 = $611k, not really a necessity to keep, wouldn't cost more than an etra 500k-1m though?

Connor Barwin 2012= $917k, another one where we may need to find a good amount of cap space in order to make it work

Tim Jamison 2012 = $565k not going to break the bank as a depth player

Shaun Cody 2012 = $2.25 million (was $3.5 million this season so we've already saved some!) Again, with Mitchell coming on, and being a position we could try to upgrade, this could well be a position where we save money rather than spend it.

So all in all, I can fully understand how re-signing Mario wouldn't necessarily ruin our chances of signing our FA's the next offseason, especially if the new TV deal increases the cap by a significant figure. It would also be reasonable to consider that any new contract negotiations will take full advantage of the new rules regarding 'benefits' which gives us an extra $20 mill to wiggle around and it's probably fair to assume that pre-existing contracts don't optimize that new rule.

For me, if we can find WR2, NT, ILB, DE, S depth in the draft, then we'll be in a strong position to continue growing without needing to spend big in FA, without being tied to having to resign depth players above their value, and that will stand us in good stead negotiating with these guys.

It isn't inconcievable that the FO has everything all mapped out and have made a decision they are comfortable with well in advance and know exactly what they are/aren't able to do about Mario.

I do find it hard to believe though, that on the basis of having drafted Reed & Watt, they would have gone out and spent a boatload of cash on JoJo and Manning if it completely took away their ability to resign Mario, without knowing how well the rookies were going to play.

And that is why I'm 100% certain that they can (if they chose to) resign Mario within the cap, and 90% certain that they will choose to.

Or maybe you are a better cap guru than anyone Rick Smith has employed.

You are right. You can delay the pain a few years. However, I'm not interested in the business model that leads to a day of reckoning like the Titans had a number of years ago. I'd rather them be fiscally responsible and make sound decisions now. What you are arguing the Texans could sign Mario for, they could also sign Robert Meachem, Matt Roth, and Brent Grimes/or Carlos Rogers... if they choose to spend all that money this year.

How does Mario make this team better? If the issue is depth, that can certainly be handled for less money. Does anyone actually believe that Mario's presence on this team is more valuable than a quality #2 WR... How would Mario have improved this team's season this year? Play with the calculations all you would like, the reality is the Texans have a finite amount of resources and, IMO, he would consume more of those resources than he is worth. We'll see what the Texans think shortly.

feebleminded
01-16-2012, 09:52 AM
I havent read all if the posts in this thread, but with regard to resigning Mario and the cap implications, I don't think any of us have good handle on what the cap is likely to look like in the next few years.

One of the things that has to be mentioned in this discussion is the new TV deal(s) that the league just cut at the end of the year. According to some reports http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/19/nfl-renews-tv-deals-with-cbs-fox-nbc-for-nine-more-years-mone/, and http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/08/espns-new-monday-night-football-deal-includes-3d-broadcasts/ the TV revenue is set to increase from an average of $3.04 Billion to approx $5 Billion beginning in 2014. Who knows how the increases are actually structured in the front end versus back end, but the bottom line is that the cap is set to make a big jump in the next couple of years.

In the new CBA the players recieve 55% of the media revenue, so without understanding the particulars of how it will come in, the cap per team is set to increase on average by ($1.96B x 55% / 32 teams) $33.687 Million per team.. That is over a 25% increase from where we are, and that is just from the TV deals alone.

The bottom line is that given the increases on the horizon, the Texans more than likely will be able to re-sign the players that they want to keep, particularly in the longer term, by being a little creative in the near term.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 09:55 AM
Does anyone actually believe that Mario's presence on this team is more valuable than a quality #2 WR... .

Stop making this about Mario and/or a #2 WR. Signing Mario has nothing to do with our ability to sign quality WRs. Kevin Walter & Jacoby Jones pulling in $9m or so has more to do with that, we've got 9 CBs on this roster, can't dress but 5 on game day, we've got so many tight ends, we started calling Casey a full back. Garret graham has had a handfull of snaps in the last two years.

We signed David Anderson to our team three times in the last two years.

Mario Williams has nothing to do with our WR problem.

EVOLVIST
01-16-2012, 09:56 AM
Dale and Welsh, you both make really good points and supply valuable information to the topic.

In your scenario, Welshman, I looked through your posts to see what sort of fat you'd trim from the team, but I can't seem to find that post(s). I've been going through a little bit of the same thing, looking at contracts and players. But I've also kept under consideration: How have the Texans treated their players in the past, and what type of loyalty they give that might affect separating the wheat from the chaff.

Dale...I, too, wonder about Mario's need to even be on the team. I'm not a Mario hater at all. I think he's great! - yet I'm forced to wonder how much of this guy is depth now. If the team really worries about depth, then yes, that's when they hit in the draft in the 1st round and go for somebody like Courtney Upshaw, as a 3-4 OLB.

For sure the Texans should do their due diligence when evaluating NTs next year, after they screwed up and drafted Earl Mitchell over Geno Atkins (who was on nearly every fan's mock in the 4th - then again, I wonder how much Frank Bush had to do with that pick).

Tailgate
01-16-2012, 09:57 AM
I dont have time to read all the posts. But is a trade even a likely possibility? Meaning, can we hang our hat on at least getting something for him if we are going to lose him? Or is there a real risk of just losing him outright? Do we get compensated if we lose him outright with an extra pick or anything?

I just want to quell my concern we may very well lose him for nothing. Keep him... great! Lose him for nothing.... sucks!

GuerillaBlack
01-16-2012, 09:58 AM
Mario's franchise tag next year would be about $17 million. He is guaranteed a 20% raise under the old and the new CBA... This year he made over $14 million in salary.

We can not sign him. It would be the death blow to this team. Here are some of the contracts coming due:

Chris Myers (FA- this year!)
Arian Foster (already been promised a new deal this off-season)

1 Year left:
Duane Brown
Matt Schaub
Glover Quin
James Casey
Connor Barwin
Tim Jamison
Shaun Cody

This isn't a complete list either... Why on earth would the Texans break up this group in order to keep Mario? It would be one of the most foolish and costly decisions I've seen. All the Mario fans should prepare to say "goodbye" to him in March.

The salary cap will increase in 2013, so many of these guys can be resigned. Mario is a special talent and only 26 years old. We need to keep him in order to have an elite pass rush. It's already there now, but would be legendary with Mario back.

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 10:03 AM
I can't believe people want to get rid of Mario and rely on 2 2nd round picks with only 1 year of experiance, and 1 first round rookie with no experiance. Which is what will happen if Mario walks and we go forward with only Barwin, Reed, 1st Round pick. Not to mention taking the pass rusher in the first round means we don't select the WR "I" want, and dammit, "I" am a selfish bastard and want my WR

badboy
01-16-2012, 10:05 AM
You sign Foster First, Then Mario, Then Myers.

Those 3 are priority this offseasonFoster cannot go anywhere & agrees to what team gives him or sits out. Sign him when you feel it is best for team. Mario? We have back up plans and players. Myers? SHould be our focal point as he calls the line plays and we have zilch behind him. I think Smith might be able to work in but if Myers goes elsewhere and I think he won't, our offense could really suffer.

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 10:10 AM
Our backup plans are 2 guys with one year of experience both at the position and in the league. Connor Barwin's first season doesn't count because he didn't play. You let mario go and you need another OLB from somewhere. If you want a good one the only one I can see in FA is .... manny lawson, super, or your taking one early in the draft. At which point you have 3 players with a total of 2 years worth of play experience in the NFL.

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 10:19 AM
Fail

badboy
01-16-2012, 10:22 AM
No one seems to be talking about Myers' contract situation, but, for me, he is number 1 priority. He's the lynchpin of our O-line and that makes him key to Foster's success.

Next up is Foster, we've witnessed our redzone troubles with him injured at the start of this season despite Ben Tate filling in well.

Williams, I wouldn't be upset if they made him the highest paid player on the team, I would be upset if that was a number that stopped us from sorting out other areas in FA.

The good thing is that even if we sign MW to somewhere around $12m, we have $5m in cap space compared to this season, we can lose Jason Allen for ~$1.5m, Matt Leinart for ~$3m & Jacoby for ~$3.5m. Hell Jake Delhomme is down to earn $9m between this year and next!! Plenty of wiggle room against the cap depending which pieces you want to rid yourself of. We could resign all 3 and still come up with a lower cap hit than this season if we want to.

My worry is the next year, when Barwin, Brown, Schaub, Quin, Casey & Cody all hit free agency and thats just to mention our starters. What the hell are they going to do then? I'd make each of those positions draft needs right now, groom the talent to replace them because we haven't got a hope in hell of keeping them all.Simply back load the deals as 2013 begins the new television contract with an estimated increase of $3Billion to NFL.

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 10:23 AM
Dale and Welsh, you both make really good points and supply valuable information to the topic.

In your scenario, Welshman, I looked through your posts to see what sort of fat you'd trim from the team, but I can't seem to find that post(s). I've been going through a little bit of the same thing, looking at contracts and players. But I've also kept under consideration: How have the Texans treated their players in the past, and what type of loyalty they give that might affect separating the wheat from the chaff.

I've looked back and I can't find it either, although I could swear I remember typing one up :mariopalm:

Anyway, Jacoby for a start only earned $600k of his $10.5 million 3 year deal this first year, so he stands to earn $5 mill average the next 2 years, Matt Leinart is down for $3 million next year, Demps is $700k, Dreesen $1.25m (decent player but its time to see what Grahams got rather than pay), McMannis ~$500k per year, Jason Allen $1.25m, Barber $600k, Derrick Ward is $1.75m. That all comes to around $13 million and I wouldn't really expect too much decline in our play to result from all of those moves.

Another one I'd take a look at is a guy who came up big for us yesterday, is a great leader on D, but is possibly being overpaid for what he is right now.

DeMeco Ryans is down to earn $7million next year, rising to around $8million in the following 3 years. I wonder if DeMeco would be willing to renegotiate to help out the team and add a couple of extra years to his contract?

Another one to take a look at is OD's contract, its front loaded at $6.5m this year and next, but then drops to $4.5m its final 2 years, that works out great for the team because it frees up $2m just when we've got other guys who'll need paying. This is where Rick Smith and his team have obviously planned ahead and 'the day of reckoning' isn't necessarily upon us.

That said, none of it matters anyway as the world will end on 21st December this year as predicted by the Myans so why are we even bothering to discuss this.

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 10:27 AM
Simply back load the deals as 2013 begins the new television contract with an estimated increase of $3Billion to NFL.

Yep, I totally agree, when I asked that question I decided to go and do some research, if you look at some of my later posts things don't look anywhere near as difficult as it first appears anyway.

srrono
01-16-2012, 10:31 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8247df3a/article/franchisetag-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

badboy
01-16-2012, 10:36 AM
Cap expands next year doesn't it? So there's some extra wiggle room right there to start.
My understanding is cap does NOT increase next season, apprx $120m + able to "borrow" $1.5 m from a future year. This past season we did not use the $3m we could borrow from future year.

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 10:41 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8247df3a/article/franchisetag-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

I get really frustrated at people constantly posting links to this and similar stories which seem to suggest that Mario's tag figure will be lower due to the new CBA. It is completely irrelevant as his earnings last year were about the tag value at either DE OR OLB, and so his figure will be 120% of last years earnings at between $16-$17 million.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 10:54 AM
I dont have time to read all the posts. But is a trade even a likely possibility? Meaning, can we hang our hat on at least getting something for him if we are going to lose him? Or is there a real risk of just losing him outright? Do we get compensated if we lose him outright with an extra pick or anything?

I just want to quell my concern we may very well lose him for nothing. Keep him... great! Lose him for nothing.... sucks!

The only reasonable way we'll be able to trade Mario is by signing him to a long term deal, let him increase his stock over the next three years, then take what we can get at that time.

badboy
01-16-2012, 10:54 AM
Okay, then it's going to take a lot wiser head than mine to come up with a way to keep Mario Williams, reward Arian Foster and keep Chris Myers.

In addition, you have to get a legit #2 WR. You have to. There's no other way around it, when even most of the suckiest teams have a better WR corps than the Texans. We are one offensive weapon away from making a run at the whole thing, in my opinion.

Because with all that money going to Williams, Foster and Myers, it doesn't look probable that we'll make a big splash in free agency, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Manningham, et al...

Otherwise, we are banking on the draft alone to get a quality WR. The best will be gone by the time we pick....unless we sell the farm by moving up and getting Blackmon. He's the only sure fire future Andre Johnson.

So, can someone tell me how the Texans are going to hit all these beats?Kendall Wright, Dwight Jones, Mohammed Sanu and perhaps Jordan WHite will be available in first (White in 3rd) and should be better than Jacoby.

dalemurphy
01-16-2012, 10:54 AM
Stop making this about Mario and/or a #2 WR. Signing Mario has nothing to do with our ability to sign quality WRs. Kevin Walter & Jacoby Jones pulling in $9m or so has more to do with that, we've got 9 CBs on this roster, can't dress but 5 on game day, we've got so many tight ends, we started calling Casey a full back. Garret graham has had a handfull of snaps in the last two years.

We signed David Anderson to our team three times in the last two years.

Mario Williams has nothing to do with our WR problem.

This argument makes no sense! You do realize the salary cap isn't divided by position? The Walter and Jones deal are both done. In order to get out of the Walter deal, the Texans would have to cut him and take a significant cap hit next season. Despite the fact that Mario is a defensive player, his salary does impact the entire team. What a strange argument to make to dispute that.

PHAROAH
01-16-2012, 10:57 AM
Dale, firstly, you've just regurgatated the point I made in this very thread earlier. Secondly, there is a very limited number of people who truly understand the cap ramifications of Mario's contract situation, those who are are contractually obliged not to post on this forum.

The fact is, say Mario gets a 6 year, $90 million contract off us, people have talked about the possibility of him signing a 'cap friendly' deal for the team, others have claimed that such an idea is a fallacy and no one would be willing to sign for less than their market value purely to 'help out'.

What they ignore, is that you can sign a cap/team friendly deal for the same $$$$ as an unfriendly one, but structure it to help the team out. Would Mario be willing to do this? Of course he would! He's done it before and he'll do it again.

So you take your idea of a $90 mill 6 year contract, you put $40 million in the last 2 years to give Mario the nice headlines, and you pay him, in reality $50 million over 4, with the vast majority of that $50 million guaranteed. That is how we arrive at a cap figure of ~$12million and that is how we can keep Mario on a team friendly deal.

I've looked at some contracts we currently have that I'd consider dead weight, and have detailed those in this thread, which could easily save us ~$10 million next year, which could help us to lock up both Myers and Foster for this year.

As for next years 'problem';

Duane Brown 2012 cap hit is $1.4 million, this one may be a big jump

Matt Schaub 2012 cap hit is $8.4 million, not likely to jump up too much from that point

Glover Quin 2012 = $607k, may need to find an extra mill or so per season?

James Casey 2012 = $611k, not really a necessity to keep, wouldn't cost more than an etra 500k-1m though?

Connor Barwin 2012= $917k, another one where we may need to find a good amount of cap space in order to make it work

Tim Jamison 2012 = $565k not going to break the bank as a depth player

Shaun Cody 2012 = $2.25 million (was $3.5 million this season so we've already saved some!) Again, with Mitchell coming on, and being a position we could try to upgrade, this could well be a position where we save money rather than spend it.

So all in all, I can fully understand how re-signing Mario wouldn't necessarily ruin our chances of signing our FA's the next offseason, especially if the new TV deal increases the cap by a significant figure. It would also be reasonable to consider that any new contract negotiations will take full advantage of the new rules regarding 'benefits' which gives us an extra $20 mill to wiggle around and it's probably fair to assume that pre-existing contracts don't optimize that new rule.

For me, if we can find WR2, NT, ILB, DE, S depth in the draft, then we'll be in a strong position to continue growing without needing to spend big in FA, without being tied to having to resign depth players above their value, and that will stand us in good stead negotiating with these guys.

It isn't inconcievable that the FO has everything all mapped out and have made a decision they are comfortable with well in advance and know exactly what they are/aren't able to do about Mario.

I do find it hard to believe though, that on the basis of having drafted Reed & Watt, they would have gone out and spent a boatload of cash on JoJo and Manning if it completely took away their ability to resign Mario, without knowing how well the rookies were going to play.

And that is why I'm 100% certain that they can (if they chose to) resign Mario within the cap, and 90% certain that they will choose to.

Or maybe you are a better cap guru than anyone Rick Smith has employed.What really makes you believe that he will sign a cap friendly deal when this could potentially be his last big contract this is a business and this is the NFL I don't see Mario taking less money for the sake of helping the team. That mindset doesn't makes since for him to do that when NFL contracts are not fully paid out like NBA contracts and he is just coming off a major injury so we need proceed with caution on this matter, I just don't see where the Texans will bring him back it makes no since with all the other contracts coming into play. I think a sign and trade is the best situation for the texans.

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 11:09 AM
It can be a big contract and still be cap friendly, he's already taking the largest chunk of the salary but with a contract in the final year of a #1 pick rookie contract, which were HUGE money deals in the old CBA. Most big contracts are back loaded, and while He'll still get a significant amount of money next year and the year after, they probably won't match his 14 million he got this year. His years after that though will probably match and pass it.

If he signs a new contract with us I see him making anywhere between 9-11 million next season and 11-13 million the season after that. By then the Salary cap will explode with the new TV contracts. Yes eventually there will be a season where he will cost us like 18million but that would a few seasons from now.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 11:20 AM
This argument makes no sense! You do realize the salary cap isn't divided by position? The Walter and Jones deal are both done. In order to get out of the Walter deal, the Texans would have to cut him and take a significant cap hit next season. Despite the fact that Mario is a defensive player, his salary does impact the entire team. What a strange argument to make to dispute that.

Doesn't matter when the mistakes were made, they were made. Signing Walters to a 2WR deal was a boo-boo & a reason we haven't brought in better WRs.

If I remember right, this should have been KDub's 3rd year under that contract & the cap hit should be minimal.

JJ didn't sign that big of a deal... we should be able to cut him as well.

amazing80
01-16-2012, 11:30 AM
Doesn't matter when the mistakes were made, they were made. Signing Walters to a 2WR deal was a boo-boo & a reason we haven't brought in better WRs.

If I remember right, this should have been KDub's 3rd year under that contract & the cap hit should be minimal.

JJ didn't sign that big of a deal... we should be able to cut him as well.

Giving a guy who has a long injury history, who has never dominated the games we needed him to and a guy who helped make us one of the worst run defenses by over pursuing, should be paid 1/10 the salary cap? The guy is over rated on this board my god

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 11:34 AM
Giving a guy who has a long injury history, who has never dominated the games we needed him to and a guy who helped make us one of the worst run defenses by over pursuing, should be paid 1/10 the salary cap? The guy is over rated on this board my god

The man did everything Connor Barwin did through injuries & with no other player on the roster getting 5+ sacks.

We got Weaver to give Mario help. We got Okoye to get Mario help. We got Antonio to get Mario help & none of those guys consistently put pressure on the QB to provide the help Mario needed.

This year, Mario started 5 sacks in 5 games, Antoino 4 sacks in that same time? Jj Watt, similar...

Mario helped those guys out, those guys helped Mario out.

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 11:42 AM
Our defense in the playoffs was better than the defense we had when mario was in here. That much is clear. However, the Defense in the regular season before and after Mario went down showed a huge transition period to get to what it was when we reached the playoffs. In fact, the biggest reason I think our playoff defense was so elite had more to do with Wade Phillips than it did with Barwin or Reed coming into their own.

This defense is at its best when Mario Williams is playing outside linebacker or Wade Phillips is in Playoff mode.

Mario with this defense at the beginning of the season: We had an incomplete playbook, not all of our packages in place, and people still uncomfortable with their positions. Mario goes down, and the next few games our defense dropped in production. Then finally everything starts to click, the packages and plays are added and we become elite level, and people think Mario Williams is not needed in the defense, and this discussion pops up.

Imagine how bad we struggle our first couple of games without mario's unmatched athletic ability that compensated for our weaknesses? Yeah sorry, I'm sticking on this side of the Mario fence.

amazing80
01-16-2012, 11:48 AM
The man did everything Connor Barwin did through injuries & with no other player on the roster getting 5+ sacks.

We got Weaver to give Mario help. We got Okoye to get Mario help. We got Antonio to get Mario help & none of those guys consistently put pressure on the QB to provide the help Mario needed.

This year, Mario started 5 sacks in 5 games, Antoino 4 sacks in that same time? Jj Watt, similar...

Mario helped those guys out, those guys helped Mario out.

Not 1/10 of the cap worthy, never gonna be

infantrycak
01-16-2012, 11:59 AM
I am sorry but saying Mario is poor in run protection is laughable. I mean seriously laughable as in have you even watched the games.

amazing80
01-16-2012, 12:04 PM
I am sorry but saying Mario is poor in run protection is laughable. I mean seriously laughable as in have you even watched the games.

:mariopalm: Ignorance is bliss. The guy has been terrible vs the run. Yup his 46 tackles a year average is AWESOME production :truck: definitely worth 16 million a year

badboy
01-16-2012, 12:30 PM
Our backup plans are 2 guys with one year of experience both at the position and in the league. Connor Barwin's first season doesn't count because he didn't play. You let mario go and you need another OLB from somewhere. If you want a good one the only one I can see in FA is .... manny lawson, super, or your taking one early in the draft. At which point you have 3 players with a total of 2 years worth of play experience in the NFL.

Barwin 11.5 sacks, Reed 6. if you think Mario will be better with another season under Phillips would you not have to say same about these two? If you trade Mario you would have picks to draft depth say perhaps a Vinny Curry. You would also have $17m extra cap space. IF your starting OLB got you 17.5 sacks in their first year in system, why would you want an FA OLB?

infantrycak
01-16-2012, 12:31 PM
:mariopalm: Ignorance is bliss. The guy has been terrible vs the run. Yup his 46 tackles a year average is AWESOME production :truck: definitely worth 16 million a year

Keep raising to a losing hand. You can watch teams audible to run away from Mario. By non-couch potato actual NFL OC's he is regarded as one of the better run-stoppers around. Again this position is laughable. He is a good but non-elite pass rusher who is also the rare combination of being an elite to good run stopper. Sorry reality eludes you.

Oh and go back to rudimentary math because over complete seasons he averages 56 tackles per season as opposed to lets say Smith who had 25 tackles this year ON THE #4 RUSHING D. Barwin had 47 tackles.

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 12:38 PM
For De Eh Pa THa. Depth. Let Mario walk, we are completely dependent on Reed and Barwin, either of them get hurt we're screwed. We let Mario walk I don't want a rookie to be the 3rd OLB, but those would be our choices: a rookie OLB, or a FA. If we go free agent there are only about 2-3 34 OLBs worth taking to be just consistent depth behind Reed and Barwin. I'm just not a huge fan of overloading positions with young raw players (See Houston Texans Defense Backs circa 2011 season).

For as many reason as you have for not wanting mario back, I have as many reason for wanting him to stay.

Unlike last year, There are very few free agents I want to bring in. Most of the ones I do want play WR. I'd rather retain our core players, Myers, Brisiel, Foster, and yes, Mario Williams. I really don't see much upgrade out their in Free Agency that won't be re-signed by their team or tagged.

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 12:56 PM
What really makes you believe that he will sign a cap friendly deal when this could potentially be his last big contract this is a business and this is the NFL I don't see Mario taking less money for the sake of helping the team. That mindset doesn't makes since for him to do that when NFL contracts are not fully paid out like NBA contracts and he is just coming off a major injury so we need proceed with caution on this matter, I just don't see where the Texans will bring him back it makes no since with all the other contracts coming into play. I think a sign and trade is the best situation for the texans.

Oh dear. Did you bother to read my post before attacking it?

Cap friendly deal as in, he gets paid the same amount but its structured in a way that helps the team, not he gets less money.

ThaJokaa
01-16-2012, 01:11 PM
1. Sign & Trade Mario for draft picks
2. Use those draft picks to trade for a higher position in the draft.
3. Draft Justin Blackmon from OSU
4. ???
5. Elite WR corps

Dutchrudder
01-16-2012, 01:17 PM
1. Sign & Trade Mario for draft picks
2. Use those draft picks to trade for a higher position in the draft.
3. Draft Justin Blackmon from OSU
4. ???
5. Elite WR corps

Blackmon's no AJ Green. He's good, but there are plenty of other good WRs in this draft. He's not the guy you pull a Julio Jones to get.

amazing80
01-16-2012, 02:00 PM
Keep raising to a losing hand. You can watch teams audible to run away from Mario. By non-couch potato actual NFL OC's he is regarded as one of the better run-stoppers around. Again this position is laughable. He is a good but non-elite pass rusher who is also the rare combination of being an elite to good run stopper. Sorry reality eludes you.

Oh and go back to rudimentary math because over complete seasons he averages 56 tackles per season as opposed to lets say Smith who had 25 tackles this year ON THE #4 RUSHING D. Barwin had 47 tackles.

I never said complete seasons, so your immature attempt to weaken my position fails. Last season was FAR below his average but he played 13 of 16 games, it was fair to include that season.....

and EVEN if it was 56 tackles, it does not warrant 16 million per season.

AND just because YOU think they audible to run away from him, doesn't make it fact, just because they guy has all the talent in the world to be elite, that doesn't actually make him elite....he needed to prove it on the field and since 06, he has YET TO PROVE THAT.....You're blind love for him is making you look foolish

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 02:23 PM
I still don't see where your getting that he will take 16-17 million in cap space next year.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/
That's his rookie contract, it had huge escalators that caused his salary to jump this season, otherwise he averaged about a 4 million cap hit.

Lets look at other big time Defensive players who have recently gotten contracts
Example Darelle Revis http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/darrelle-revis/ His is pretty interesting, his contract is front loaded to do major payouts at the beginning.

Julius Peppers http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/julius-peppers/
That's actually a pretty scary contract, but they unloaded 1/3 of it the first season, He's also hit certain other incentives and bonuses that have raised his cap hit.

Charles Johnson http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/charles-johnson/
I felt he got a much bigger contract than he should have. This is also the most traditional contract yet, although it is noted that in 2015 they can cut him and almost save money.

My point is contracts are worked in many different ways. I was probably wrong when I said earlier that he would probably only have a 9 million cap hit next year, it will likely be close to 11Million, unless they pull a circus act on the contract to make it fit, still 11 million is less then the 14-15 million he got this year. So the arguement that he's going to cost more against the cap is still likely wrong unless he get a Julius peppers heavy frontload contract. Which I'm pretty sure he only got because the bears were so heavily under the cap that season.

welsh texan
01-16-2012, 02:45 PM
I still don't see where your getting that he will take 16-17 million in cap space next year.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/
That's his rookie contract, it had huge escalators that caused his salary to jump this season, otherwise he averaged about a 4 million cap hit.

Lets look at other big time Defensive players who have recently gotten contracts
Example Darelle Revis http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/darrelle-revis/ His is pretty interesting, his contract is front loaded to do major payouts at the beginning.

Julius Peppers http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/julius-peppers/
That's actually a pretty scary contract, but they unloaded 1/3 of it the first season, He's also hit certain other incentives and bonuses that have raised his cap hit.

Charles Johnson http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/charles-johnson/
I felt he got a much bigger contract than he should have. This is also the most traditional contract yet, although it is noted that in 2015 they can cut him and almost save money.

My point is contracts are worked in many different ways. I was probably wrong when I said earlier that he would probably only have a 9 million cap hit next year, it will likely be close to 11Million, unless they pull a circus act on the contract to make it fit, still 11 million is less then the 14-15 million he got this year. So the arguement that he's going to cost more against the cap is still likely wrong unless he get a Julius peppers heavy frontload contract. Which I'm pretty sure he only got because the bears were so heavily under the cap that season.

His cap hit would be 16-17m next season IF franchised.

badboy
01-16-2012, 02:46 PM
For De Eh Pa THa. Depth. Let Mario walk, we are completely dependent on Reed and Barwin, either of them get hurt we're screwed. We let Mario walk I don't want a rookie to be the 3rd OLB, but those would be our choices: a rookie OLB, or a FA. If we go free agent there are only about 2-3 34 OLBs worth taking to be just consistent depth behind Reed and Barwin. I'm just not a huge fan of overloading positions with young raw players (See Houston Texans Defense Backs circa 2011 season).

For as many reason as you have for not wanting mario back, I have as many reason for wanting him to stay.

Unlike last year, There are very few free agents I want to bring in. Most of the ones I do want play WR. I'd rather retain our core players, Myers, Brisiel, Foster, and yes, Mario Williams. I really don't see much upgrade out their in Free Agency that won't be re-signed by their team or tagged.The 2nd round rookie playing OLB turned out to be pretty good and he starts. I could live with a rookie draft pick as a backup.

ChampionTexan
01-16-2012, 02:55 PM
His cap hit would be 16-17m next season IF franchised.

I actually think it would be more than that

I think the franchise tag is entirely impossible for Mario this offseason. Casserly said yesterday that the franchise tag number for Mario is in the neighborhood of $22 million.

I don't trust Casserly much, but I've heard this from others in the local/national media, plus as much as I usually don't trust Casserly, I'm starting to think that Spotrac is pretty worthless. I have yet to see a single source besides them that provides 2011 cap amounts, and I honestly question their info regarding both Mario and Jacoby.

PapaL
01-16-2012, 02:58 PM
Random Thought: Day 1 of our offseason and we're 15 pages into Mario's contract. Gonna be a long offseason.

Brandon420tx
01-16-2012, 03:03 PM
We won't be franchising him, If we do we will "have" to trade him because we won't have the room. If we have to trade him, we have to wait for him to sign the Tender, since we're trading him if he signs the Tender, he doesn't sign it unless the trade is to a team he actually wants to go to.

Too many variables, its either new contract or he walks. I'm done with this though, I'm tired of arguing money that's not mine to spend

ChampionTexan
01-16-2012, 03:10 PM
Random Thought: Day 1 of our offseason and we're 15 pages into Mario's contract. Gonna be a long offseason.

Option 1 - 15 pages (and counting) of whether or not to bring back our stud DE/OLB

Option 2 - 15 pages (or more) regarding or bird-brain coach, miserly owner, moronic GM, horrible coordinators, etc.

We're doing fine!

gafftop
01-16-2012, 03:21 PM
Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season: 4/19/11
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion.

This post started in 3/7/11 trying to decide what we could do to get Aso. It morphed into should we just trade Mario before the 2011 season to what to do with Mario now that the season is over.
The above posted on 4/19/11 BEFORE last season started for all you just tuning in after the Texans last game to Ravens.

It was my contention that the best plan of action was to trade Mario prior to the start of last season. Any outcome once this season was over was inferior to the choice we would have now. I felt he would probably not stay healthy for the season and I still think that is a HUGE factor in determining what to do with him now. I will be curious to see if a lot of Mario's team mates start emphatically backing him up. To date the only ones I hear talking about how Mario is the best defensive player on the team is the talking heads.

Dutchrudder
01-16-2012, 03:30 PM
The above posted on 4/19/11 BEFORE last season started for all you just tuning in after the Texans last game to Ravens.

It was my contention that the best plan of action was to trade Mario prior to the start of last season. Any outcome once this season was over was inferior to the choice we would have now. I felt he would probably not stay healthy for the season and I still think that is a HUGE factor in determining what to do with him now. I will be curious to see if a lot of Mario's team mates start emphatically backing him up. To date the only ones I hear talking about how Mario is the best defensive player on the team is the talking heads.

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/q7INu.jpg

amazing80
01-16-2012, 03:59 PM
My stance is still the same, Mario SHOULD be traded, but the more I think about it, the less likely that is to happen. Someone will have to give up picks for him and then turn around and make him a huge offer that he will have to agree to. So we would need the most we could get from him, plus a good team so he would be willing to sign long term with them AND they would have to be able to afford him.....that narrows it done, to practically 0 teams....welcome back Mario, strap up and see you on the field in 5 months when OTAs start

Mustyzulu1979
01-16-2012, 04:10 PM
Mario is too good to trade away. I keep thinking how good our D would have been with him in the lineup.

TexCanada
01-16-2012, 04:16 PM
I think a big part of the decision could be Mario's willingness or unwillingness to play the 3-4 DE spot. If he is willing to play there along with 3-4 OLB and also put his hand in the dirt as a 4-3 DE on third downs then he is extremely valuable for us and should be signed. We don't have weaknesses at those spots, but he could instantly turn our front seven into one of the best in the league if he is willing to sacrifice some personal stats for the good of the team.

I would base my decision on Mario on a conversation with him (and I'm sure many of these have already taken place) to see how bad he wants to be a part of this defense. If he is willing to do whatever it takes then we should find a way to get him signed.

amazing80
01-16-2012, 04:23 PM
I think a big part of the decision could be Mario's willingness or unwillingness to play the 3-4 DE spot. If he is willing to play there along with 3-4 OLB and also put his hand in the dirt as a 4-3 DE on third downs then he is extremely valuable for us and should be signed. We don't have weaknesses at those spots, but he could instantly turn our front seven into one of the best in the league if he is willing to sacrifice some personal stats for the good of the team.

I would base my decision on Mario on a conversation with him (and I'm sure many of these have already taken place) to see how bad he wants to be a part of this defense. If he is willing to do whatever it takes then we should find a way to get him signed.

Thats exactly what he was doing this year

badboy
01-16-2012, 04:26 PM
My stance is still the same, Mario SHOULD be traded, but the more I think about it, the less likely that is to happen. Someone will have to give up picks for him and then turn around and make him a huge offer that he will have to agree to. So we would need the most we could get from him, plus a good team so he would be willing to sign long term with them AND they would have to be able to afford him.....that narrows it done, to practically 0 teams....welcome back Mario, strap up and see you on the field in 5 months when OTAs startIf we can sign him to a cap friendly deal so can others. Having a 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE of his calibre could bring some good offers.

TexCanada
01-16-2012, 04:27 PM
Thats exactly what he was doing this year

Then I think we should fight hard to retain him. I would just want to know for sure that he would be willing to play 3-4 DE if, for example, A. Smith got injured.

badboy
01-16-2012, 04:29 PM
Then I think we should fight hard to retain him. I would just want to know for sure that he would be willing to play 3-4 DE if, for example, A. Smith got injured.Think I'd move Mitchell to cover for Smith & leave Mario where he is.

TexCanada
01-16-2012, 04:33 PM
Think I'd move Mitchell to cover for Smith & leave Mario where he is.

Thats fine too, I would just want to know exactly where his head is at. I want to know that he is here to win football games and not just put up stats. Personally I believe that he is in the right frame of mind and I would work hard to get him signed at a reasonable cap number.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 04:37 PM
His cap hit would be 16-17m next season IF franchised.

Understood. But you've got someone saying Mario will demand $16m/yr, that he's not worth 1/10 the cap......

Most of us are saying we should sign him to a long term deal. Not franchise him.

CloakNNNdagger
01-16-2012, 04:41 PM
Came across this interesting article about Franchise and Trade.
2012 NFL Free Agents: Packers Would Be Brilliant to Sign-and-Trade Matt Flynn

by Timothy Rapp
(Featured Columnist) on January 3, 2012

The Green Bay Packers are sitting on a golden commodity: the right arm of backup quarterback Matt Flynn. But what they do with him may very well determine not only their own future, but the future of organizations such as the Washington Redskins or Cleveland Browns.

What am I talking about?

Flynn—coming off of a win against the Detroit Lions that saw him go 31-of-44 for 480 yards and six touchdowns—is set to become a free agent this year, and more than one organization would be licking their chops at the chance to sign him, especially considering that one less highly-touted quarterback is hitting the 2012 NFL Draft after prospect Matt Barkley decided to return to USC.

But Green Bay would have to sign Flynn to trade him, and that's where things get tricky. Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee-Wisconsin Journal Sentinel did an excellent job of breaking down the Packers' options, which I'll paraphrase here:

If the Packers decide to apply the franchise tag to Flynn, any team that wanted to sign the quarterback would have to give the team two first-round draft picks. Slapping the franchise tag on Flynn won't be cheap, however—last year, the quarterback tag was worth $14 million and will be similar or higher this season.

Technically speaking, the Packers aren't allowed to apply the franchise tag with the clear intent to then turn around and trade him, since trading franchised players is prohibited. According to Silverstein, however, the NFL tends to look the other way in such instances.

So the Packers would look to negotiate a trade with another team, sign Flynn to that contract, work out the deal so that they aren't on the hook for a cap hit and turn around and deal the quarterback.

The risk is if they sign him to the franchise tag and can't work out a deal with another team. As Silverstein points out, that would both crush their salary cap and prevent them from applying the tag to a player they would likely otherwise use it for, tight end Jermichael Finley.

With teams like the Browns and Redskins interested, it's a possibility that the Packers could pull the trade off. Then again, as Steve Doerschuk of Cantonrep.com writes, the Browns may have other quarterback plans, from sticking to Colt McCoy to trading the farm for the right to draft Andrew Luck. Or maybe they'll stay put and wait for their franchise quarterback to fall to them:

An interesting twist in the Flynn story: The Browns also are weighing the option of spending a No. 4 overall draft pick on Heisman Trophy winner Robert Griffin III.

If the Packers are able to trade Flynn, it will be a stroke of genius from general manager Ted Thompson. If the rest of the league is smart, they'll refuse to negotiate with the Packers and throw a ton of money at Flynn to ensure they land him when he hits the free-agent market.

Then again, who ever knows what Daniel Snyder will do?]link (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1008437-nfl-free-agents-2012-packers-would-be-brilliant-to-sign-and-trade-matt-flynn)

badboy
01-16-2012, 04:51 PM
The tag requiring 2 firsts is not the only one available.

Rey
01-16-2012, 05:31 PM
Texans should trade mario and yates and whatever else they need to for rg3.

infantrycak
01-16-2012, 07:45 PM
The tag requiring 2 firsts is not the only one available.

Effectively it is. A transition tag is useless and carries no compensation. An exclusive rights franchise tag doesn't let the player negotiate with other teams so there is no compensation set since they can't talk. A non-exclusive franchise tag allows negotiation but is but for agreement of the teams to something lessor 2 1sts.

Texecutioner
01-16-2012, 07:51 PM
Texans should trade mario and yates and whatever else they need to for rg3.

That wouldn't be enough Rey. Be real.


I like the thinking though.


It would have to be more like Mario, Yates, a 1st rounder, and 3rd rounder.

That still might not even get it done.

I'd do it though. RG3 looks like one of the best prospects of all time coming into this league.

ObsiWan
01-16-2012, 10:42 PM
That wouldn't be enough Rey. Be real.


I like the thinking though.


It would have to be more like Mario, Yates, a 1st rounder, and 3rd rounder.

That still might not even get it done.

I'd do it though. RG3 looks like one of the best prospects of all time coming into this league.

Having given up all of that, would you be willing to let RGIII learn behind Schaub for a year or two? You're not only giving up a "special" defensive player (Wade's assessment) but you're giving away his (Wade's) chance to snag a 1st round quality replacement and/or our badly needed #2 WR. All for a guy that will be a backup for a year or two.

Are you really good with that?

You could be right. It just seems a bit steep to me.

GP
01-16-2012, 11:03 PM
I don't think RG3 would land on the Texans even if he fell to us at our initial spot in Round 1. To me, Kubiak is happy discovering some raw talent like Yates rather than the hyped up guy ESPN shows every day on their highlights show.

Schaub was a backup in Atlanta, and we snagged him just weeks before the Vick Saga broke national news. Yates was a guy not even invited to perform at NFL Combine, he ends up throwing passes to the ones who DID get invited...Kubiak drafts him in Round 5. See a pattern?

Kubiak will bank on Yates as the season starter, and will work Schaub into the QB1 spot in 2012 (when Schaub is 100% ready on that foot of his) to see if Schaub needs a serious look at a new contract in 2013 or if it's time to part ways. Kubiak likes BOTH those guys, he isn't going to add RG3 to the mix for the sport of it, IMO.

The whole IDENTITY that Kubiak has built here is one of "You want to play football? You do, huh? OK. Let's see how bad you want to be here." I cannot see a single player he's added who is a self-serving, prime time type of guy. Kubiak wants guys like Walter, Anderson, Schaub, OD, Foster, the guys who would play football for a sandwich if it meant they were on a good team and won games due to the talent and hustle of the guys surrounding them.

RG3 is going to want to be the starter somewhere right out of the gate, guys. His agent will demand it. Endorsement agents will demand it. Our team is not a good destination for all that stuff.

I, too, had once daydreamed about having RG3 as our future QB. But with what I saw in Yates in the 1st Bengals game (zipping the game-winning pass to Walter and clinching AFC South and playoffs in that one toss) and what I saw in the two games in the playoffs, I think Kubiak will stick with Schaub or Yates. He will use his 1st rounder or trade down.

I want Kubiak to go bananas in the draft on offense, though. But the whole RG3 thing is not his schtick, IMO. Runs very contrary to his nature.

mussop
01-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Having given up all of that, would you be willing to let RGIII learn behind Schaub for a year or two? You're not only giving up a "special" defensive player (Wade's assessment) but you're giving away his (Wade's) chance to snag a 1st round quality replacement and/or our badly needed #2 WR. All for a guy that will be a backup for a year or two.

Are you really good with that?

You could be right. It just seems a bit steep to me.

That's not high of you consider him a FRANCHISE QB. I do! Would do it so fast it would make your head spin. Imagine the benefits of having a mobile QB that is really accurate and throws a beautiful deep ball.

To be honest with Schaubs injury history we should really consider this.

Vinnie
01-16-2012, 11:10 PM
Jeez, seems steep to me too. Especially considering we're looking at being just another good WR or two away. We know we have a very good prospect in Yates, he proved that much. Why not hang on to him? Don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled to have RGIII, but why slit your throat for the future when you're already so close to contending now?

GP
01-17-2012, 12:02 AM
That's not high of you consider him a FRANCHISE QB. I do! Would do it so fast it would make your head spin. Imagine the benefits of having a mobile QB that is really accurate and throws a beautiful deep ball.

To be honest with Schaubs injury history we should really consider this.

Not arguing here, but just playing devil's advocate for a little bit:

You'd have to give RG3 the keys to this team the day you drafted him. I mean it. Even if you somehow tricked him, his agent, and all the endorsement agents/managers into accepting a one-year "hold the clipboard and spit sunflower seeds on the sideline" gig...you will have two guys ahead of him in 2012 (Yates and Schaub) who are going to know their days are numbered.

It does more harm than good to try and swing some sort of idealistic draft day steal of RG3 out from underneath every other team's nose. Because if you make THAT big of a splash, on draft day, you are 100% definitively stating that RG3 is your guy N-O-W or in 2013. It signals the end of both Yates and Schaub.

To even swing that deal, it would take so much to get it done. To then try and pacify other people who are affected by that deal, it takes more. It messes with what Kubiak has been building, IMO. It inserts a dynamic and possibly uncontrollable and flammable situation.

I don't think Bob McNair would endorse it (He already turned down this same sort of situation with Vince Young and this was when we HAD the overall #1 pick in our lap!). There was ONE collegiate player that Bob McNair came right out, immediately, and said he would NOT draft with the #1 pick...Vince Young. VY was shocked, stunned, and then pissed off royally about it. BUt the reason was because Bob, and Gary too, wanted to try and see what David Carr could do...and that meant NOT inserting a potential explosive situation in the midst of that.

The Carr experiment didn't work out, so Kubiak doesn't even try to draft a guy. He just trades some 2nd round picks for a backup named Schaub. Over the years, he builds Schaub into a very good QB. Now he drafts a 5th rounder who wasn't even an NFL Combine QB!

Everything on the table says that this team will not only NOT trade up to get RG3...but that we also wouldn't take him even if he fell to us at #24 or whatever we're drafting at in round 1. It's no knock on RG3, it's just not the way Kubiak or McNair would go. I even think a lot of people need to be prepared for us to drop out of round 1 altogether unless a Kubiak or Phillips guy is sitting there and they're shocked he's still there.

RG3 needs to go to a team that has nothing going for it. A vacuum of star power whereby RG3 is IT and it's HIS show. That's what his agent wants. It's what marketing guys at athletic companies want. And that the Colts might actually go with Andrew Luck instead of RG3 is a head-scratcher for me.

Don't get me wrong, I think RG3 will be every bit as good as (or even better than) Cam Newton. But he won't be wearing Steel Blue. It's not a logical step considering what else we could do with what we'd give up for him.

GP
01-17-2012, 12:10 AM
If Kubiak did this, he would have to gut the team's QB roster. Yates would be traded on draft day, Schaub would be stashed on I.R. or released outright prior to camp (no team will trade for Schaub prior to camp with the type of injury he's had). Kubiak would have to send other draft picks or do some other trading of our players to get it done.

Does that sound like Kubiak? No. It's the polar opposite. What is on the line, more than anything else, is the idea Kubiak has (which is valid) that HE knows how to draft and HE knows how to find guys that get overlooked. HE gives them chances, and they perform for him out of sheer gratitude of being chosen by Kubiak to even compete for that roster spot. Call it manipulative or whatever, but it works. He attracts people like JJ Watt, Barwin, Foster, Manning, etc.

Gee whiz, he even kept JJ returning punts last Sunday. I mean, if that's not loyalty to his guys, I don't know what is.

We won't draft RG3 or try to get RG3 not because RG3 is not good. But because it's not the motive or direction of Kubiak. Plain and simple. This team is trying to become a perennial plug-and-play team like the Patriots and Ravens, a team that is in the playoffs every year and merely trying to add a piece every year to be the top team they know they're near being.

The big question ought to be about Yates and Schaub and who is the guy in 2013. How that whole thing will play out, IMO, is the real story.

Texecutioner
01-17-2012, 12:56 AM
Having given up all of that, would you be willing to let RGIII learn behind Schaub for a year or two? You're not only giving up a "special" defensive player (Wade's assessment) but you're giving away his (Wade's) chance to snag a 1st round quality replacement and/or our badly needed #2 WR. All for a guy that will be a backup for a year or two.

Are you really good with that?

You could be right. It just seems a bit steep to me.

Hell yeah, I'd be good with that, but I'd only want RG3 sitting for a season tops most likely unless Schaub was playing better than he ever has before in which he'd be great trade bait.

As far as a #2 WR, I keep saying that the last thing I want to do is draft some young WR that takes a year or two to develop any way. I want to get a solid vet at WR right now or acquire one through a trade that isn't that happy in his current situation. To many good WR's that will be available in this off season.

Andrew Luck and RG3 are going to be this next generation's elite QB's in my eyes. I think that highly of both of them, and I'd feel pretty good building from there and then I'd immediately stack a great defense behind them.

Texecutioner
01-17-2012, 12:57 AM
The big question ought to be about Yates and Schaub and who is the guy in 2013. How that whole thing will play out, IMO, is the real story.

Matt Schaub without question.

welsh texan
01-17-2012, 05:28 AM
The problem I have with the whole RGIII debate, and I agree it will never happen anyway, btw... Is that, given we're talking about being 1 or possibly 2 pieces, and some better injury luck, away from being perennial contenders for a long time, why on earth would you, at that stage, before you've really done anything, go and take a chance on a rookie QB and hope that he's an improvement?

Even if he's once in a generation, you can still get it done with an Eli anyway, and that is the kind of level a healthy Matt Schaub can play at, and keep on taking the late round QB flyer each year, waiting for his eventual replacement to show up.

Before we see stats comparing Eli and Schaub before he went down, Schaub was injured pretty badly this season long before he broke his foot, the guy wasn't healthy and it showed in his play.

I just don't see how this team doesn't resign Mario, a guy who was dominant from the moment he set foot on the field until he hurt, with no offseason to learn his new position or anything. I expect this guy to come back and I also expect him to show us exactly why Wade believes in him. If Barwin can get 11.5 from that position, Mario can go get 20. And what Barwin and Reed can do in rotation, staying fresh, will be totally scary. jmo.

ObsiWan
01-17-2012, 06:11 AM
Hell yeah, I'd be good with that, but I'd only want RG3 sitting for a season tops most likely unless Schaub was playing better than he ever has before in which he'd be great trade bait.
So you're telling me that if Schaub has another pro-bowl caliber season in 2012, and we're the 2012 AFCS champs with Schaub at the controls, which we should be, you would still kick Schaub to the curb and inject RGIII in 2013?? Or are you saying Schaub would have to continue to have pro bowl seasons to keep RGIII on the bench beyond 2012?

As far as a #2 WR, I keep saying that the last thing I want to do is draft some young WR that takes a year or two to develop any way. I want to get a solid vet at WR right now or acquire one through a trade that isn't that happy in his current situation. To many good WR's that will be available in this off season. I agree with you on that point. That's why the first half of my and/or concerned giving Wade a new tool to replace Mario.
Two "first day picks" AND Mario AND T.J. Yates? Man, that's a serious gamble.

I'd also take a good look at Brandon Weeden. Somebody had to get Justin Blackmon the ball...

Gonna be interesting to see these guys at the combine.

leebigeztx
01-17-2012, 08:10 AM
Ask kc how they like giving up allen for that 2nd rd pick. The thing is, if you franchise mario and someone calls you bluff, he's going to hit your cap for 18m or so. The bes case scenerio to me is a deal that is 6yrs 72m with 36m in 1st 3 yrs. The thing about mario that is so unique is that if watts or smith gets hurt, he can play the 5 and wrck shop. That's enough reason for me to give him the money. As far as the health risk, you can have that in snaps bonus. The team can take his last couple of yrs and set a % of snaps bonus. Just going by last yr, its easy to set the bar at 75% of snaps

mussop
01-17-2012, 09:17 AM
I know, hell everyone knows we aren't going after RG111. The debate is is obviously hypathetical. But to me its a no brainer. If you could acquire a franchise QB right now for this young team without giving up any of your core players you do it without hesitation.

I know how good Schaub is. I also know he is on the wrong side of 30 and just missed most of his season. He has had some past injury issuess and without him as we have seen there isn't much chance of us going as far as our talent should dictate we are capable of going.

We also know that there just isn't much out there as far as quality backups go. I'm sorry but Yates is not the answer to our future. If Schaub were to go down again next season do you want to waste another season of this young talented team with Yates at the reigns?

Think of this team without Mario, without Yates, now add RG111, a few late draft picks and sprinkle in a couple young upcoming FA's. Also that is a team that FA's want to come and play for.

And I don't even worry about RG111. He is a intelligent and mature beyond his years. His agent and his endorsement people have absolutely no say in the matter as far as I'm concerned. Was GB stupid for drafting A Rodgers when they already had a great QB in Favre? No! This move would be about the future and it would be a good one.

mussop
01-17-2012, 09:20 AM
Ask kc how they like giving up allen for that 2nd rd pick. The thing is, if you franchise mario and someone calls you bluff, he's going to hit your cap for 18m or so. The bes case scenerio to me is a deal that is 6yrs 72m with 36m in 1st 3 yrs. The thing about mario that is so unique is that if watts or smith gets hurt, he can play the 5 and wrck shop. That's enough reason for me to give him the money. As far as the health risk, you can have that in snaps bonus. The team can take his last couple of yrs and set a % of snaps bonus. Just going by last yr, its easy to set the bar at 75% of snaps

did KC already have someone in place that was producing similar numbers? No. We do. Besides Mario is no Allen.

dalemurphy
01-17-2012, 09:43 AM
did KC already have someone in place that was producing similar numbers? No. We do. Besides Mario is no Allen.

This is the problem. Why Texan fans think Mario is anything like Jared Allen is beyond me. If you want a comparison of a DE similar to Mario, I think the player would be Will Smith.

srrono
01-17-2012, 10:10 AM
Do you guys think the Panthers would be intrested in a trade for Mario?
Thier coach is a def minded coach they signed C.Johnson last year at 1 DE spot so they would have Mario on the other side at his natural position. Panthers def was bad last year mario could help the pass rush. Panthers have the 8th pick in the draft.

ChampionTexan
01-17-2012, 10:13 AM
Ask kc how they like giving up allen for that 2nd rd pick.

A "Sign and trade" of Mario is pretty unlikely to hapen, but I'm not sure where you get the idea that KC's trade of Jared Allen is the example for why it should never be considered. KC turned the Jared Allen trade into Branden Albert and Jamaal Charles along with two other picks (one a third rounder) that never really turned into anything. Had they known ahead of time they would get a starting OL and a RB who would go on to finish second in the league in rushing, they would probably feel pretty good about going ahead and doing it.

LINK (http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/9909/revisiting-the-jared-allen-trade)

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 10:14 AM
Do you guys think the Panthers would be intrested in a trade for Mario?
Thier coach is a def minded coach they signed C.Johnson last year at 1 DE spot so they would have Mario on the other side at his natural position. Panthers def was bad last year mario could help the pass rush. Panthers have the 8th pick in the draft.

How exactly do you propose we trade the rights of a player we don't have under contract?

I really don't understand this line of thinking, we don't own Mario and with the new franchise tag rules Mario can hold off signing the tender so he doesn't get traded if he doesn't want to go elsewhere. I really think we are down to just signing him to play for us or letting him walk.

BullNation4Life
01-17-2012, 10:25 AM
How exactly do you propose we trade the rights of a player we don't have under contract?

I really don't understand this line of thinking, we don't own Mario and with the new franchise tag rules Mario can hold off signing the tender so he doesn't get traded if he doesn't want to go elsewhere. I really think we are down to just signing him to play for us or letting him walk.

correct me if I am wrong, if the Texans franchise him at 18-20 mil (maybe lower) then trade him, THEN Mario signs a new contract with said team, doesn't he get the franchise tag money AND the money guaranteed in his new contract?

If this is so, seems it would soot Mario to sign the tender, then get traded and make close to double his guaranteed money from his new contract...

Also who would pay this franchise tag, Texans or the team that trades for him?

BullNation4Life
01-17-2012, 10:29 AM
This is the problem. Why Texan fans think Mario is anything like Jared Allen is beyond me. If you want a comparison of a DE similar to Mario, I think the player would be Will Smith.

probably same reason you think you are anything like Peter King as a blogger....

Teams would pay a hell of allot more for Mario Williams than Will Smith...I'd bet my house a ridiculous government salary that you ask 31 GMs who they would rather have, 31 take Mario Williams over Will Smith any day of the week, twice on Sunday....

Rey
01-17-2012, 10:30 AM
1) Rg3 would be worth it

2) Mario will be a texan next year

WolverineFan
01-17-2012, 10:37 AM
If we give up a ransom to get RG3 you might as well just give up a little bit more and take Luck. He was made to play in this offense.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 11:02 AM
correct me if I am wrong, if the Texans franchise him at 18-20 mil (maybe lower) then trade him, THEN Mario signs a new contract with said team, doesn't he get the franchise tag money AND the money guaranteed in his new contract?

If this is so, seems it would soot Mario to sign the tender, then get traded and make close to double his guaranteed money from his new contract...

Also who would pay this franchise tag, Texans or the team that trades for him?

The new deal nullifies the F-tag deal. You don't get both. With the new CBA, a franchise tagged player cannot be traded after July 15th, so if Mario gets tagged and doesn't want to leave H-town, he can just wait until July 16th to avoid being traded. In that case Mario has a huge amount of leverage over the Texans to negotiate a new deal, or play for a buttload of money and get a new deal in 2013 when the cap increases. I'm sure his agent is smart enough to understand the scenario and won't advise him to sign the tender without a new deal in place. Otherwise Mario could end up with another team against his will.

BullNation4Life
01-17-2012, 11:06 AM
The new deal nullifies the F-tag deal. You don't get both. With the new CBA, a franchise tagged player cannot be traded after July 15th, so if Mario gets tagged and doesn't want to leave H-town, he can just wait until July 16th to avoid being traded. In that case Mario has a huge amount of leverage over the Texans to negotiate a new deal, or play for a buttload of money and get a new deal in 2013 when the cap increases. I'm sure his agent is smart enough to understand the scenario and won't advise him to sign the tender without a new deal in place. Otherwise Mario could end up with another team against his will.

ahhh, makes sense now. Thanks....

So it's sign him and live with it or let him walk with nada....

Glad I am not Rick Smith. I do not see this ending well....

Blake
01-17-2012, 11:09 AM
What is with the RG3 talk? I see a 0.0% chance the Texans even look QB in the draft period. Schaub is their boy. Yates is also their boy.

Mario Williams will be retained. Either franchised and traded, or franchised and signed to a multi-year contract. There is no 3rd direction. You do not let young pass rushers go. There is no debate.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 11:20 AM
ahhh, makes sense now. Thanks....

So it's sign him and live with it or let him walk with nada....

Glad I am not Rick Smith. I do not see this ending well....

It's still possible to do the f-tag and trade deal, but the player has to be on-board with it (or have poor advice from his agent). I don't see any incentive for the player to do that though as they would only be hurting their future team in the process.

badboy
01-17-2012, 11:31 AM
I don't think RG3 would land on the Texans even if he fell to us at our initial spot in Round 1. To me, Kubiak is happy discovering some raw talent like Yates rather than the hyped up guy ESPN shows every day on their highlights show.

Schaub was a backup in Atlanta, and we snagged him just weeks before the Vick Saga broke national news. Yates was a guy not even invited to perform at NFL Combine, he ends up throwing passes to the ones who DID get invited...Kubiak drafts him in Round 5. See a pattern?

Kubiak will bank on Yates as the season starter, and will work Schaub into the QB1 spot in 2012 (when Schaub is 100% ready on that foot of his) to see if Schaub needs a serious look at a new contract in 2013 or if it's time to part ways. Kubiak likes BOTH those guys, he isn't going to add RG3 to the mix for the sport of it, IMO.

The whole IDENTITY that Kubiak has built here is one of "You want to play football? You do, huh? OK. Let's see how bad you want to be here." I cannot see a single player he's added who is a self-serving, prime time type of guy. Kubiak wants guys like Walter, Anderson, Schaub, OD, Foster, the guys who would play football for a sandwich if it meant they were on a good team and won games due to the talent and hustle of the guys surrounding them.

RG3 is going to want to be the starter somewhere right out of the gate, guys. His agent will demand it. Endorsement agents will demand it. Our team is not a good destination for all that stuff.

I, too, had once daydreamed about having RG3 as our future QB. But with what I saw in Yates in the 1st Bengals game (zipping the game-winning pass to Walter and clinching AFC South and playoffs in that one toss) and what I saw in the two games in the playoffs, I think Kubiak will stick with Schaub or Yates. He will use his 1st rounder or trade down.

I want Kubiak to go bananas in the draft on offense, though. But the whole RG3 thing is not his schtick, IMO. Runs very contrary to his nature.FWIW, Schaub said he is on target to particpate in OTAs. Did not say 100% but i gathered that he feels he will start game 1.

mussop
01-17-2012, 11:36 AM
The new deal nullifies the F-tag deal. You don't get both. With the new CBA, a franchise tagged player cannot be traded after July 15th, so if Mario gets tagged and doesn't want to leave H-town, he can just wait until July 16th to avoid being traded. In that case Mario has a huge amount of leverage over the Texans to negotiate a new deal, or play for a buttload of money and get a new deal in 2013 when the cap increases. I'm sure his agent is smart enough to understand the scenario and won't advise him to sign the tender without a new deal in place. Otherwise Mario could end up with another team against his will.

Are you sure this is how it works? Not doubting you it just doesn't sound right. Once you franchise a player doesn't that make him your property? Can't you trade that player once you've made that move? But after July 16th you can't trade the player?

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 11:47 AM
Are you sure this is how it works? Not doubting you it just doesn't sound right. Once you franchise a player doesn't that make him your property? Can't you trade that player once you've made that move? But after July 16th you can't trade the player?

If they sign the Franchise tender, then you own a contract with them and have something to trade at the team's discretion. Before that, like when Dunta held out, you have nothing to trade. The new CBA made it more difficult to sign and trade a player by putting a time limit on it.

badboy
01-17-2012, 11:54 AM
IMO if you trade up for RG3 or Luck you include Schaub in the trade. If you contemplate a trade of Mario he pretty much has to be on board as in a trade to as perennial playoff team like New England. He could do this to allow Texans to recoup some draft picks. I still think many underestimate the relationship between Mario and McNair. Bob would say Mario, we love you but can move you to a team with SB chances and you can get that super contract we will work out with that team. We can add players that offer us a chance to move deeper.

steelbtexan
01-17-2012, 12:17 PM
How exactly do you propose we trade the rights of a player we don't have under contract?

I really don't understand this line of thinking, we don't own Mario and with the new franchise tag rules Mario can hold off signing the tender so he doesn't get traded if he doesn't want to go elsewhere. I really think we are down to just signing him to play for us or letting him walk.

Other teams seem to be able to get it done.

Allen, Cassell, Seymour etc....