PDA

View Full Version : Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million


Pages : 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

dalemurphy
11-04-2011, 09:19 AM
If Rosenfels hadn't pulled a Rosencopter he would be our starting QB right now. Schaub is nothing special, good or bad. Mario is special. Out of 64 starting DE's in the league he is a top ten. Schaub is a top 15 out of 32.

Those rankings (valid or not) are irrelevant.

The Texans defense, with Mario, has been consistently one of the worst in the league. This year, without him, it is a top 10 defense.

The Texans offense, with Schaub, is consistently in the top 1/2 of the league. Without him, it has never been (even with Rosenfels).

I don't care who is better. Who is more important is all I care about. The fact that the defense has been succeeding without Mario doesn't mean he is not a good player. It does, however, mean he is not an essential member of this defense.

HOU-TEX
11-04-2011, 09:27 AM
Those rankings (valid or not) are irrelevant.

The Texans defense, with Mario, has been consistently one of the worst in the league. This year, without him, it is a top 10 defense.

The Texans offense, with Schaub, is consistently in the top 1/2 of the league. Without him, it has never been (even with Rosenfels).

I don't care who is better. Who is more important is all I care about. The fact that the defense has been succeeding without Mario doesn't mean he is not a good player. It does, however, mean he is not an essential member of this defense.

Look, I've seen a lot of poor logic and ridiculous player scouting from you in the past. But that statement's just plain dumb. LOL, good grief

BigBull17
11-04-2011, 09:27 AM
Those rankings (valid or not) are irrelevant.

The Texans defense, with Mario, has been consistently one of the worst in the league. This year, without him, it is a top 10 defense.

The Texans offense, with Schaub, is consistently in the top 1/2 of the league. Without him, it has never been (even with Rosenfels).

I don't care who is better. Who is more important is all I care about. The fact that the defense has been succeeding without Mario doesn't mean he is not a good player. It does, however, mean he is not an essential member of this defense.

Any statement YOU make on this subject has little to no relavance. Your son Smith was on this same awful defense last year. J-Jo has been on a bad defense. A lot of really good defensive players have been on bad defenses. Frank Bush was as competent at his job as a blind midget throwing darts at a playbook. With Mario, at the beginning of the year, this was as good a defensive unit as any in football. It still is good, meaning we have a DC that can shut down an offense and make up for injuries.

leebigeztx
11-04-2011, 09:29 AM
If Rosenfels hadn't pulled a Rosencopter he would be our starting QB right now. Schaub is nothing special, good or bad. Mario is special. Out of 64 starting DE's in the league he is a top ten. Schaub is a top 15 out of 32.

Schaub is truly a system qb. If he were playing anywhere else, he would be below avg or avg. Right now, we"ve seen the best of schaub. He's needs alot of things to go right to be successful. Mario is special and still getting better. Mario and players of his ilk cost more than players like schaub. I think there is enough money to pay schaub and mario, but its easier finding a schaub than it is a mario.

Ole Miss Texan
11-04-2011, 09:31 AM
Rosenfels? That's one of the silliest comments I've ever seen in my life. Tell me, why isn't he starting for the winless Miami Dolphins? Did he have a rosencopter moment there?

If Jake Delhomme, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning and a 37 year old Kurt Warner can get to and/or win the Super Bowl.... I don't mind taking my chances with Schaub.

No he's not Brady, Manning, Brees or Rodgers... but not many QBs are. I'll take my chances with him over Rosenfels any day.

steelbtexan
11-04-2011, 09:38 AM
Yeah, Carolina is rebuilding still, and I could see them going for a DE in the 1st this year. Quinton Couples would make a lot of sense for them if they have a top 5 pick, but they could also go with a WR in that spot. Maybe they go after Mario in free agency and take a WR or OT with their 1st. I dunno, I just don't see any team giving up a 1st and a 3rd to get Mario after these last two season's injuries.

I dont see another team giving up a 1st and a 3rd for MW either. I wouldn't trade him within division. But I would trade him within confrence. I could see the Pats trading for MW and giving up a 1st and a 2nd for MW and the Texans 3rd.

Like DM said the real kicker in trading MW is the cap savings. It would allow the Texans to be real players in the FA market. Like they were this yr. Any draft picks obtained for trading MW would just be an added bonus.

Big Lou
11-04-2011, 09:48 AM
Rosenfels? That's one of the silliest comments I've ever seen in my life. Tell me, why isn't he starting for the winless Miami Dolphins? Did he have a rosencopter moment there?

If Jake Delhomme, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning and a 37 year old Kurt Warner can get to and/or win the Super Bowl.... I don't mind taking my chances with Schaub.

No he's not Brady, Manning, Brees or Rodgers... but not many QBs are. I'll take my chances with him over Rosenfels any day.

Schaub>Rosenfels

However with that said, Sage worked pretty well in this system when he wasn't trying to overcompensate. This Offense is a "System Offense". Guys that are average or above average can be great in it. Guys that are just below average can look like servicable starters.

I prefer Schaub, sure he throws that untimely pick 6, sure he underthrows Andre, and overthrows K-Dub, but he's above average in this system. There has never been a Defense in Houston while he's been here. Now that there is a D, lets give him some time. I think a big part of the offenses struggles has been continuity with starters and what kind of packages you can run when key starters are injured. This Offense has to get used to getting in to a rythm that is ball control versus explosive. They don't have to put up 42 to win anymore, they have had to take thier foot of the gas just a little and that has really changed things in my opinion.

Have you every heard a Dragster and 3/4 throttle? It sounds and runs like crap, but put the pedal down and its a symphony. I think this offense is the same way, and they are learning to adapt.

Dutchrudder
11-04-2011, 10:12 AM
Probably not a top 15 one and two but what about N.E. at 30 & 31 or 31 and #63? Leaving PATs with a first and second to draft.

What would the Pats want with Mario? They never sign big name free agents, but rather get people on the cheap when a team is willing to give up on them (Moss, Ocho, Haynesworth, etc). They build from within mostly, so I don't see them trading two high picks for a guy like Mario and then going out and giving him a HUGE contract. The Pats aren't dumb, and most GMs around the league aren't either, they know what they get in Mario. He's good, but not consistent enough to be great.

True but do you think any team will pay Mario $18m salary for one year? No way. He knows that. He will take the deal that suits him best. For example, he could be offered a 6 year (27 years old next Jan) contract $80m. $25 m bonus divided by 6 (to determine cap) He would avg $9 m salary + $4m bonus = $13m salary cap hit. He gets $25m upfront and guaranteed two year salary ($18m). So 1st year he has the $9m salary + 25m bonus= $34m. Think he'd sign that rather than take a franchise tag? Benefit to team is he can be cut after two years costing team only $4m against cap/year. With $25m up front he could be pursuaded to take a smaller salary first two season to backload the deal. That happens and if I am right his first contract was similar.

A $13million cap hit for an OLB that should get 15 sacks a season or a disruptive DE like he has provened to be is reasonable. I think we would get 2-3 trade offers IF we decided not to keep him. His cap hit this season $14m and cap is expected to increase about that much next year. So we can re-sign him at about same under the $120m cap(of this year) and still have the increase next season of about $14m to spend elsewhere + the other amounts allowed by new CBA. What could we do with another first and second round selections + $14m saved by trading Mario +$14m in increased cap space + $3million allowed in new CBA? That's $31million plus an extra first and second round to select or trade.

I'm not saying anyone will pay 18 million for Mario next year, I'm just saying the Texans will be in a bad spot to negotiate if they franchise him. 1 year at 18 mill guaranteed is easy enough for him to play for. Get a good year under his belt in a contract-year situation and then get a huge payout.

Problem is, a torn pectoral injury could alter his ability. Look at Elvis Dumerville as he had the same injury last year. This year Elvis hasn't had a sack, has barely done anything and doesn't look the same. Mario and Elvis has very similar stats over their first four years (both 2006 draftees). We may be dealing with a career altering injury here, and I don't want to see the Texans double down on a guy who may never be himself again.

If the Texans can get even 1 high pick for him (1st or 2nd) I would be very happy with a trade. We can already see that the defense seems to be doing well enough without him, I really don't think he will be that difficult to replace. If they focus on getting Foster, Myers, Rackers and Schaub re-signed, they can put some money into a #2 WR and move towards the "Elite offense, good defense" strategy. No need to tie up 13+ million a year in Mario unless the defense goes really far south in the second half of the season.

badboy
11-04-2011, 10:19 AM
Or we could simly give him a decent offer at about 7-8 million a year and tell him take it or leave it. He hasn't played a full season in two years..GMs including ours may focus on the sizzle rather than the steak. Mario has proven to be at least an above avg 4-3 DE and as OLB avg 1 sack per game prior to injury. If we take all emotion out of it, I think several teams would jumpt all over opportunity to have him. A take it or leave it offer is not the way I'd go as he would probably go. We will have the means to re-sign him if we choose or trade if offer is right.

badboy
11-04-2011, 10:24 AM
Cleveland may be in the market for a pass rusher too. And they have 2 first round picks so that's another team that may be willing to give up a lot for a premier Defensive End since they switched back to the 4-3 this year.At #7 Browns could probably select DE Quinten Coples or maybe a QB if McCoy is not successful. #15 could bring them Oline help as LT Joe Thomas is 31. I would love to have #15 and a 3rd for Mario.

badboy
11-04-2011, 10:28 AM
I don't know if that's true. We simply don't know.

I don't think it is good business to try to find out or anything, but the fact of the matter is that we do not know.

Have we ever had another QB step in with this OL? With Ben Tate & Arian Foster in the backfield? With Dressen, Cassey, & OD?

I don't think so. Bottom line, Schaub isn't a gamer, he takes what he can get & that's it. It works fine for us, he's pretty good at it & our offense is ranked pretty high because of it. However, I think the argument can be made that it is just as much because of the system & play-makers around Schaub as it is Schaub.

Again, it would be stupid to drop Schaub to keep Mario & see what Lienart or some other unproven or failed-at-a-previous-stop QB can do. But we signed Schaub to big money before he played a down...

At the same time, I'd look at what Washington is doing with the Shanahans, Grossman, & Beck...... not very enticing if you ask me. But they don't have an Arian Foster or a gel'n OLine.WOuld you see similarities between Schaub and UH's Case Keenum based on your post?

Dutchrudder
11-04-2011, 10:33 AM
WOuld you see similarities between Schaub and UH's Case Keenum based on your post?

A&M's Ryan Tannehill looks exactly like Schaub to me. Only difference is that Ryan's legs work.

badboy
11-04-2011, 10:34 AM
Yeah I would agree with you also but I will stick to what I said during the whole Cushbeast overtraining saga.

I told everyone who was freaking out over his bad season that no matter how many steroids you do it doesn't make you a smarter player, it doesn't help put you in position to make tackles, it doesn't make help you judge where to play coverage.

I will say the same thing in regards to DeMeco, assuming he gets his speed back (well see after the injury) even if he loses a tiny bit of power and speed he still hopefully has that instinct to be where he needs to be when he needs to be there.Do you use a high round to draft an insurance player?

BullNation4Life
11-04-2011, 10:41 AM
Those rankings (valid or not) are irrelevant.

The Texans defense, with Mario, has been consistently one of the worst in the league. This year, without him, it is a top 10 defense.

The Texans offense, with Schaub, is consistently in the top 1/2 of the league. Without him, it has never been (even with Rosenfels).

I don't care who is better. Who is more important is all I care about. The fact that the defense has been succeeding without Mario doesn't mean he is not a good player. It does, however, mean he is not an essential member of this defense.

Are you seriously going to stand by these points? Are you freaking kidding me? I guess your Hate on Mario agenda knows no bounds huh? Dude your credibility just flatlined.....:mariopalm:

Let me axe you a question, what has Antonio Smith done since Mario Williams went out with injury? How many sacks have we seen him get? I'll help you out, it starts with a z and ends with an ero.... Hell have we even seen him get close to the QB in 3 weeks? I know I haven't and wanna know why, come in close I'll tell you propaganda man, IT'S BECAUSE MARIO WILLIAMS IS OUT OF THE LINE UP! Teams double down on Smith because they do not have to gameplan for #90 anymore, case closed...

pathetic, simply pathetic...

Kthx
11-04-2011, 10:42 AM
As long as that insurance could pay off on multiple fronts. I could see taking a LB in the second similar to how we grabbed Brooks Reed last draft.

So yeah I would.

BullNation4Life
11-04-2011, 10:44 AM
As long as that insurance could pay off on multiple fronts. I could see taking a LB in the second similar to how we grabbed Brooks Reed last draft.

So yeah I would.

What about taking a true SS either in the Draft or FA and moving GQ back to #2 Corner? I could seriously see this as a plausible scenario...

badboy
11-04-2011, 10:44 AM
What would the Pats want with Mario? They never sign big name free agents, but rather get people on the cheap when a team is willing to give up on them (Moss, Ocho, Haynesworth, etc). They build from within mostly, so I don't see them trading two high picks for a guy like Mario and then going out and giving him a HUGE contract. The Pats aren't dumb, and most GMs around the league aren't either, they know what they get in Mario. He's good, but not consistent enough to be great.



I'm not saying anyone will pay 18 million for Mario next year, I'm just saying the Texans will be in a bad spot to negotiate if they franchise him. 1 year at 18 mill guaranteed is easy enough for him to play for. Get a good year under his belt in a contract-year situation and then get a huge payout.

Problem is, a torn pectoral injury could alter his ability. Look at Elvis Dumerville as he had the same injury last year. This year Elvis hasn't had a sack, has barely done anything and doesn't look the same. Mario and Elvis has very similar stats over their first four years (both 2006 draftees). We may be dealing with a career altering injury here, and I don't want to see the Texans double down on a guy who may never be himself again.

If the Texans can get even 1 high pick for him (1st or 2nd) I would be very happy with a trade. We can already see that the defense seems to be doing well enough without him, I really don't think he will be that difficult to replace. If they focus on getting Foster, Myers, Rackers and Schaub re-signed, they can put some money into a #2 WR and move towards the "Elite offense, good defense" strategy. No need to tie up 13+ million a year in Mario unless the defense goes really far south in the second half of the season.NE missed SB last season and many think will again this year.

They have two first & 2 seconds. My plan would be trade #30 (or 31 if applicable) plus the lower 2nd for Mario which takes pressure off DBs as the plan was for Texans. NE then uses the higher first round they kept to draft a corner and the other 2nd round for a safety. That defense would resolve many problems and cost little.

Kthx
11-04-2011, 10:48 AM
What about taking a true SS either in the Draft or FA and moving GQ back to #2 Corner? I could seriously see this as a plausible scenario...

That would basically solve our secondary problems with Manning/High Draft Safety and then Quin/JoJo and Jackson/Harris im assuming would play nicks.

I guess the value of that depends on how much value safeties have during the draft over our other needs like receiver.

Texn4life
11-04-2011, 10:51 AM
That would basically solve our secondary problems with Manning/High Draft Safety and then Quin/JoJo and Jackson/Harris im assuming would play nicks.

I guess the value of that depends on how much value safeties have during the draft over our other needs like receiver.

There aren't any safeties that I think are capable of stepping in and playing right away in the 2012 draft so I don't know about that scenario. I'm not sure of the FA's that will be available though.

badboy
11-04-2011, 10:53 AM
What about taking a true SS either in the Draft or FA and moving GQ back to #2 Corner? I could seriously see this as a plausible scenario...This defense does not use the traditional SS (reason the previous player was let go). I did post a mock a few weeks ago about draft a safety high & moving Quin to CB2. However, our passing defense keeps getting better regardless of reason, so that might be hard to get done. Way to think out of the box though.

Rey
11-04-2011, 11:09 AM
Glover was not all that as a corner...

I think he's been much better at safety...I'd rather leave him there and let him grow into a fixture on this team at the safety position and draft another corner to compete with Kareem/Harris/Allen/others for the CB2 spot...

Texn4life
11-04-2011, 11:11 AM
Glover was not all that as a corner...

I think he's been much better at safety...

I'm pretty good friends with a scout for another team that scouted Glover in college, and I can remember at the time when the Texans drafted him that he saw him more as a safety than a corner. I guess it turns out the Texans did too.

TEXANRED
11-04-2011, 11:19 AM
Rosenfels? That's one of the silliest comments I've ever seen in my life. Tell me, why isn't he starting for the winless Miami Dolphins? Did he have a rosencopter moment there?

If Jake Delhomme, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning and a 37 year old Kurt Warner can get to and/or win the Super Bowl.... I don't mind taking my chances with Schaub.

No he's not Brady, Manning, Brees or Rodgers... but not many QBs are. I'll take my chances with him over Rosenfels any day.

I wasn't trying to start a Schaub sucks thread. If I were given an option of keeping either Mario or Schaub I would keep Mario.

Rey
11-04-2011, 11:26 AM
Rosenfels? That's one of the silliest comments I've ever seen in my life. Tell me, why isn't he starting for the winless Miami Dolphins? Did he have a rosencopter moment there?


Some kind of season ending ordeal I think...

thunderkyss
11-04-2011, 11:59 AM
The Texans defense, with Mario, has been consistently one of the worst in the league. This year, without him, it is a top 10 defense.

I don't care who is better. Who is more important is all I care about. The fact that the defense has been succeeding without Mario doesn't mean he is not a good player. It does, however, mean he is not an essential member of this defense.

As good as our defense has looked, we also blitz over 58% of the time, without Mario. That can't be good.

We'll have to wait until Atlanta (maybe Cincy) to see what we'd look like against a decent QB + Receivers.

steelbtexan
11-04-2011, 04:40 PM
At #7 Browns could probably select DE Quinten Coples or maybe a QB if McCoy is not successful. #15 could bring them Oline help as LT Joe Thomas is 31. I would love to have #15 and a 3rd for Mario.

If I were the Browns I would take Jeffries at 7

Reiff at 15

Konz at 39

The offense would be fixed and the rest of the draft which they still have multiple picks from the Atl trade to supplement the defense.

Enough of the Browns draft talk. LOL But there's no way that I would trade a 1st let alone a 1st and a 3rd for MW.

Ole Miss Texan
11-04-2011, 05:03 PM
My thoughts on franchising Mario:

1) We would use the "non exclusive" tag, assuming that's still around post new CBA. This would allow Mario to not only negotiate a long term deal with us, but other teams as well. The Texans would have first rights to match another team's deal if he decides on one, otherwise we would receive two 1st round picks. I believe the "compensation" of draft picks from another team could be negotiated to the two teams' liking.

2) I feel like we would attempt to negotiate a long term deal with him. It seems our normal business course is to do this after a season, but my gut (which is often wrong) tells me we'd be negotiation as we slap the tag on him and it would carry into the 2012 season. Assuming Mario and the Texans decide on a new long term contract, say half way through the season... Mario would have been paid the hypothetical $9M (half of our assumption of an $18M franchise tag on him) plus the remaining 2nd half of the season at whatever the contract states. Look at Julius Peppers contract from 2010: 6 yr $84M or $14M per year. So that's $7M for the 2nd half of the season (estimate) or $16M alltogether for the 2012 season. Mario would be making $2M less but would have the luxury of a brand new 5-6 year contract. That's security and probably another $30M in guaranteed money. That's a wise move by Mario.

3) Franchise him, negotiate with him.... if its not gonna work - trade him. Teams trade for players so they don't have to bid on them during free agency. Once Mario hits FA... teams are competing with 31 other organizations to sign him (ideally). I don't know what would satisfy me as compensation for Mario b/c I want him on the team. But, trading him is far better than losing him to free agency and this is accomplished via franchise tag. Additionally, if we do trade him, the new team will negotiate a brand new long term contract with him. It's not like they're trading for him and he's going to be on the 1 year franchise tag. People seem to not understand this part of it.

gary
11-04-2011, 06:09 PM
It is too bad Mario is as injury prone as he is because if he were not then I would re-sign him without bilking. Yes, when he is healthy he is worth it IMHO.

steelbtexan
11-04-2011, 06:15 PM
As good as our defense has looked, we also blitz over 58% of the time, without Mario. That can't be good.

We'll have to wait until Atlanta (maybe Cincy) to see what we'd look like against a decent QB + Receivers.

Since Wade said MW would only be dropping in coverage a couple of times a game. They probably were blitzing more than 58% of the time with MW in the lineup.

steelbtexan
11-04-2011, 06:21 PM
Glover was not all that as a corner...

I think he's been much better at safety...I'd rather leave him there and let him grow into a fixture on this team at the safety position and draft another corner to compete with Kareem/Harris/Allen/others for the CB2 spot...

This is what they are going to do.

The question is how high of a draft pick are they going to use to try to fill that need?

How high of a pick would you use? I would use a 1st or 2nd depending on which CB is available. What I wouldn't do is reach to fill this need. Like Rick/Gary have done in the past.

thunderkyss
11-04-2011, 06:39 PM
Since Wade said MW would only be dropping in coverage a couple of times a game. They probably were blitzing more than 58% of the time with MW in the lineup.

When Mario was in the game the front 5 would get their hands on a QB multiple times per game; Antonio Smith was getting there once per game & our rookie was becoming a household name.

If you can't see this defense is different with Mario, there really isn't a whole lot anyone can say.

That's not to say Brooks & Connor can't take up the slack, but they aren't right now. They have 9 weeks to get there though, come play-off time blitzing 58% of the time isn't going to work.

thunderkyss
11-04-2011, 06:44 PM
This is what they are going to do.

The question is how high of a draft pick are they going to use to try to fill that need?

How high of a pick would you use? I would use a 1st or 2nd depending on which CB is available. What I wouldn't do is reach to fill this need. Like Rick/Gary have done in the past.

I seriously doubt they are going to draft another corner. They are happy with Kareem & are comfortable with his development. You can tell by his playing time increasing.

They also like McCain & I can't imagine Brandon Harris not eventually getting on the field.

If they don't sign Mario before the draft, chances are they'll take an outside rusher & a NT.... Not necessarily a bigger NT, but a JJWAtt type better player NT.

steelbtexan
11-04-2011, 06:44 PM
When Mario was in the game the front 5 would get their hands on a QB multiple times per game; Antonio Smith was getting there once per game & our rookie was becoming a household name.

If you can't see this defense is different with Mario, there really isn't a whole lot anyone can say.

That's not to say Brooks & Connor can't take up the slack, but they aren't right now. They have 9 weeks to get there though, come play-off time blitzing 58% of the time isn't going to work.

Not disagreeing with you

Just saying the Texans were probably blitzing more than 58% of time with MW in the game.

steelbtexan
11-04-2011, 06:52 PM
I seriously doubt they are going to draft another corner. They are happy with Kareem & are comfortable with his development. You can tell by his playing time increasing.

They also like McCain & I can't imagine Brandon Harris not eventually getting on the field.

If they don't sign Mario before the draft, chances are they'll take an outside rusher & a NT.... Not necessarily a bigger NT, but a JJWAtt type better player NT.

Although I disagree with you, you're probably right. I just hope they get 3 impact players out of the draft and FA next yr. (Watt/Joseph/Manning and Reed to an extenpt for example)

gary
11-04-2011, 07:10 PM
I would not sign Mario just based on injury history alone. I would tag and trade him.

stingray
11-04-2011, 07:10 PM
Those rankings (valid or not) are irrelevant.

The Texans defense, with Mario, has been consistently one of the worst in the league. This year, without him, it is a top 10 defense.

The Texans offense, with Schaub, is consistently in the top 1/2 of the league. Without him, it has never been (even with Rosenfels).

I don't care who is better. Who is more important is all I care about. The fact that the defense has been succeeding without Mario doesn't mean he is not a good player. It does, however, mean he is not an essential member of this defense.

Man, I have seen some crap over the years on this board... But Whoa Nellie, this really is the dumbest statement I have ever seen on this board.

ObsiWan
11-05-2011, 04:28 AM
Heard today that the franchise cost on Mario is about 20 mill. When I made statement above I thought his franchise cost would be 10 mill as a LB. Sorry at 20 mill or 1/7 of whole salary cap for the TExans for next year I would say pass. Just don't sign him to a big dollar long term contract. Just my opinion.

The cost to franchise a defensive end is $12.4 million per Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchise_Tag)

According to the football outsiders it will cost a team $10.09 million to apply the franchise tag to an OLB. LINK (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-cap/2011/under-cap-2011-franchise-tags)

Seems to me you were right the first time with the $10 mil number.

That's less than he's due this year.

Whoever quoted that $20 million number was talking out of his (or her) butt.

ObsiWan
11-05-2011, 05:43 AM
Those rankings (valid or not) are irrelevant.

The Texans defense, with Mario, has been consistently one of the worst in the league. This year, without him, it is a top 10 defense.

The Texans offense, with Schaub, is consistently in the top 1/2 of the league. Without him, it has never been (even with Rosenfels).

I don't care who is better. Who is more important is all I care about. The fact that the defense has been succeeding without Mario doesn't mean he is not a good player. It does, however, mean he is not an essential member of this defense.

That's twice you've said that crap.

You act like Mario has been gone all year. We got to BE a top ten defensive status WITH Mario in the lineup. Mario was part of the top ten defense for 4-1/2 of our 8 games. In the other two and a half we played crappy offenses like the Jags. Those are facts that make your argument bogus.

We beat the media darling Steelers WITH him in the lineup.
When he went down we lost to the freakin' Raiders.
And sure would have been nice to have him in the lineup against Flacco and the Ravens. The defense stayed in the top ten because we've played against crappy offenses (Tenn., Jags), since Mario's been hurt.


By the way, Schaub was in ALL those games. He didn't make much of a difference in the ones we lost.

...unless you count the INT he threw at the end of the Raiders game.

Look, both of them are important parts of our team. Unless I get offered a Herschel Walker-like deal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade), I'm not trading either of them.

Lucky
11-05-2011, 06:36 AM
The cost to franchise a defensive end is $12.4 million per Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchise_Tag)

According to the football outsiders it will cost a team $10.09 million to apply the franchise tag to an OLB. LINK (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-cap/2011/under-cap-2011-franchise-tags)

Seems to me you were right the first time with the $10 mil number.

That's less than he's due this year.

Exactly. But that's why the franchise numbers don't apply to Mario. The tag amount is the franchise number or 120% of the previous year's salary. Whichever is higher. Rotoworld has Mario at $13.8 million this year (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3636/mario-williams), so to franchise him would take a $16.56 mil tender. That would likely be exclusive, so Mario would not be able to shop for another offer.

Mario will likely sign a deal with the Texans in the offseason with a smaller cap number than he played under this season. That will allow the Texans to extend Foster. Schaub? He's still under contract for 2012. How he performs in the playoffs (yes, I said playoffs) should help determine if he is the long term answer at QB.

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 07:14 AM
Are you seriously going to stand by these points? Are you freaking kidding me? I guess your Hate on Mario agenda knows no bounds huh? Dude your credibility just flatlined.....:mariopalm:

Let me axe you a question, what has Antonio Smith done since Mario Williams went out with injury? How many sacks have we seen him get? I'll help you out, it starts with a z and ends with an ero.... Hell have we even seen him get close to the QB in 3 weeks? I know I haven't and wanna know why, come in close I'll tell you propaganda man, IT'S BECAUSE MARIO WILLIAMS IS OUT OF THE LINE UP! Teams double down on Smith because they do not have to gameplan for #90 anymore, case closed...

pathetic, simply pathetic...

1. Antonio Smith caused the Brice McCain interception return for a TD when he hit Hasselbeck's throwing hand in motion.

2. I'm not arguing anything about Antonio Smith. We're talking about Mario next year and if we can afford to keep him. Believe me, if Antonio Smith was headed into FA and would cost the team over $10 million a year, I would say that he should be let go as well. We have some important and difficult business to do this off-season

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 07:16 AM
Man, I have seen some crap over the years on this board... But Whoa Nellie, this really is the dumbest statement I have ever seen on this board.

What is inaccurate about this statement? I'm not blaming Mario for either the failures of the past nor am I arguing that his absence is the reason for this season's success. The point, which is not dumb at all, is that he is not an essential part of the success of the defense, nor does his presence alone significantly improve the defense. That information is based on 5 and 1/2 years of strong, anecdotal evidence. Who can argue that point?

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 07:24 AM
That's twice you've said that crap.

You act like Mario has been gone all year. We got to BE a top ten defensive status WITH Mario in the lineup. Mario was part of the top ten defense for 4-1/2 of our 8 games. In the other two and a half we played crappy offenses like the Jags. Those are facts that make your argument bogus.

We beat the media darling Steelers WITH him in the lineup.
When he went down we lost to the freakin' Raiders.
And sure would have been nice to have him in the lineup against Flacco and the Ravens. The defense stayed in the top ten because we've played against crappy offenses (Tenn., Jags), since Mario's been hurt.


By the way, Schaub was in ALL those games. He didn't make much of a difference in the ones we lost.

...unless you count the INT he threw at the end of the Raiders game.

Look, both of them are important parts of our team. Unless I get offered a Herschel Walker-like deal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade), I'm not trading either of them.


Mario is a good player. I wish he was healthy. I wish we could re-sign him to a long term deal that is cap-friendly and in line with his true worth. I doubt that will happen, though. Since Mario went down with a season-ending injury (AGAIN), the defense has continued to play very well. There were some struggles in the Baltimore game but let's not pretend it was from a lack of a pass rush. The past two weeks, there has been less of a pass rush but I think that is largely a result of the focus on the running game. By the way, Reed does have 2 sacks in those games and the turnovers are piling up.

Take Schaub out of the lineup against a bad defense and replace him with Leinart. Do you think the offense would be successful and the team would be a playoff-caliber team? I don't.

Do you think this is a playoff-caliber team without Mario on it? I do. Furthermore, I think the team could be even better using the cap resources Mario would burn up this off-season on other players. I could be wrong but I don't think there is anything crazy about that belief.

thunderkyss
11-05-2011, 10:10 AM
We had (sacks - hits) (avg sacks/game)

Indy (3 - 7) (1.75)
Miami (2 - 7) (3.85)
Saints (2 - 5) (2.375)
Pitts (5 - 8) (3.125)
Oak (3 - 12) (1.14)
Ravens (2 - 7) (2.28)
Tennessee (2 - 3) (1.43)
Jags (1 - 5) (2.75)

Maybe it's just perception.... these numbers show our pass rush has performed at or below our opponents average just as often as we've played above that average. Twice with Mario we've played above & below our opponents average. Twice without Mario we've played above & below our opponents average.

I still like to believe those 4 games, Oak, Ravens, Tennessee, & Jags would have been even more dominant with Mario (& AJ) in the line-up.

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 10:28 AM
Are you seriously going to stand by these points? Are you freaking kidding me? I guess your Hate on Mario agenda knows no bounds huh? Dude your credibility just flatlined.....:mariopalm:

Let me axe you a question, what has Antonio Smith done since Mario Williams went out with injury? How many sacks have we seen him get? I'll help you out, it starts with a z and ends with an ero.... Hell have we even seen him get close to the QB in 3 weeks? I know I haven't and wanna know why, come in close I'll tell you propaganda man, IT'S BECAUSE MARIO WILLIAMS IS OUT OF THE LINE UP! Teams double down on Smith because they do not have to gameplan for #90 anymore, case closed...

pathetic, simply pathetic...


Here is what LZ thinks about your argument: Mario Does Not Make Antonio Smith Better (http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2011/10/no-mario-williams-does-not-make-antonio-smith-better/)

ObsiWan
11-05-2011, 11:10 AM
Mario is a good player. I wish he was healthy. I wish we could re-sign him to a long term deal that is cap-friendly and in line with his true worth. I doubt that will happen, though. Since Mario went down with a season-ending injury (AGAIN), the defense has continued to play very well. There were some struggles in the Baltimore game but let's not pretend it was from a lack of a pass rush. The past two weeks, there has been less of a pass rush but I think that is largely a result of the focus on the running game. By the way, Reed does have 2 sacks in those games and the turnovers are piling up.
"AGAIN" ?? I'm sorry, did I miss something? Mario was out for the season before?


Take Schaub out of the lineup against a bad defense and replace him with Leinart. Do you think the offense would be successful and the team would be a playoff-caliber team? I don't.
I certainly do. Our offense is RUN FIRST. As long as our O-line is clicking like they are now and springing Foster and Tate for 100+ yds and multiple TDs each game Schaub is an afterthought. So yeah, I think Leinhart can to hand the ball off every bit as well as Schaub can. And he can roll out just as effectively as Schaub.

Do you think this is a playoff-caliber team without Mario on it? I do. Furthermore, I think the team could be even better using the cap resources Mario would burn up this off-season on other players. I could be wrong but I don't think there is anything crazy about that belief.

Given the strength - weakness actually - of the remainder of our schedule I think we will make the playoffs without Mario. Once we get to the playoffs, will we be as effective without him as we would with him? Hell no. Because "playoff caliber" doesn't mean just making it into the playoffs and going one-and-done. It means - to me anyway - having a realistic shot at competing to be in the Super Bowl. So, by my definition, we're not "playoff caliber" without Mario. You may be happy just to be there.

And given the way his rookie contract was structured - light on the front end with the big "balloon payment" due this year - I don't see Mario trying to take the Texans to the cleaners.

I think some of you guys are projecting what YOU would do if you had Mario's "leverage" (for lack of a better word). And that's what scares you. If you were in his shoes, you'd probably hold out or make ridiculous demands. Mario has no history of doing any of that crap.

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 11:15 AM
"AGAIN" ?? I'm sorry, did I miss something? Mario was out for the season before?.

I said, "Mario is out with a season-ending injury, AGAIN"... Two years in a row, he has ended the season on I.R.

Before the I.R. in 2010 and for the second half of 2009, his play had become largely ineffective as a result of his hernia and shoulder problems. Given how the injuries are not the result of any sort of strange or violent play, it appears he may be on the brittle side. As he ages, it seems very likely that the injuries will continue to trend up.

thunderkyss
11-05-2011, 11:54 AM
Here is what LZ thinks about your argument: Mario Does Not Make Antonio Smith Better (http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2011/10/no-mario-williams-does-not-make-antonio-smith-better/)

From Lance:
Is the defensive line better off with Mario Williams out there? Of course. Mario is better than Brooks Reed as a player. That, however, is not what is being argued.

He's wrong. Plain & simple. This is exactly what is being argued. In years past, It was Mario or it was nobody putting pressure on the QB. Sure Antonio would flash into the backfield & get close to the QB. But he rarely negatively affected the play; the QB would still complete the pass down field, & he's rarely tackled the runner in the backfield.

This year, I think the secondary has helped Antonio buy that extra second that he's needed. But the Addition of Watt & Barwin have added other players to the pass rush that contribute.

The scheme is keeping pressure on the QB & the run game in check. But this team is better with Mario on the field than off.


From Lance:
Is the defensive line better off with Mario Williams out there? Of course.

& Lance feels the same way.

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 02:03 PM
From Lance:


He's wrong. Plain & simple. This is exactly what is being argued. In years past, It was Mario or it was nobody putting pressure on the QB. Sure Antonio would flash into the backfield & get close to the QB. But he rarely negatively affected the play; the QB would still complete the pass down field, & he's rarely tackled the runner in the backfield.

This year, I think the secondary has helped Antonio buy that extra second that he's needed. But the Addition of Watt & Barwin have added other players to the pass rush that contribute.

The scheme is keeping pressure on the QB & the run game in check. But this team is better with Mario on the field than off.


From Lance:


& Lance feels the same way.

Here is the complete article, which I agree with 100%:



No, Mario Williams does not ďmake Antonio Smith betterĒ

There is a new argument that is surfacing surrounding Mario Williamsí value to the Houston Texans and it is one that I have to attempt to take down before it gets out of control. I realize that I canít stop it, but Iím damn sure going to try.

ďMario Williams makes Antonio Smith better. Look at what Antonio has done since Marioís out. Without Mario, Antonio Smith isnít as good.Ē

Huh?

If we are to argue the value of Mario Williams to the Houston Texans, then letís talk about Mario Williams and what he brings to the table. Letís not measure Marioís value based on when he isnít in the game because that, quite frankly, is a waste of Bob McNairís money. Marioís play should speak for Mario Williams and Antonio Smithís play should speak for Smith. Someone will have to explain in football terms how Antonio Smith is so much better with Mario Williams on the field.

Is the defensive line better off with Mario Williams out there? Of course. Mario is better than Brooks Reed as a player. That, however, is not what is being argued. I would like to know why this is the first year that Mario has had this kind of effect on his teammates. Heís played next to Okoye (who is playing better in Chicago than Houston) and has played on the defensive line with Shaun Cody and Antonio Smith for three years. So why wasnít he having the same impact on those players in those years?

If the argument turns to Wade Phillips presence as defensive coordinator, then the argument about Mario making Antonio better has officially had its legs cut out from under it. Wade Phillips has had a tremendous impact on the defenseÖ much more so than Mario Williams. The Texans defense hasnít looked all that bad without Mario Williams which is a testament to the fact that Phillips is building and coaching a good defensive unit that isnít dependent on one, single player.

Trench warfare is all about winning the battle with the guy in front of you. Whether Mario Williams is there or not, Antonio Smith has to battle the player who is in front of him. He will either win or lose. Unless you are arguing that Mario Williams provided confidence to those around him (which would be the first time weíve heard that since he was drafted), then there really isnít an argument to be made. Mario had to battle his man when he was in there, Brooks Reed is having to battle his man now and Antonio Smith has to battle his man.

Antonio Smith is the fastest lineman off the snap on the entire team. That quickness and aggressiveness is what gives him the title of best defensive lineman on the team over the last three years. This isnít tag-team wrestling, this is big guys smashing into each other and the best man on that particular snap wins. To try and point out some type of decline for Antonio Smith since Mario has been out based on sack totals is ludicrous. For one, Smith has never posted high sack totals because of the position he plays. Heís a disruptor and pocket collapser. Go back and watch the Ravens game and see how much pressure Smith put on Flacco all game long. No Mario and yet the defense was able to keep Flacco dancing.

I thought Smith had one of his poorer games of the season last week,but I wonít be surprised to see him give fits to Jacksonvilleís line without Mario Williams playing next to him and gazing into his eyes to give him special powers.

The Texans are going to have to decide how much money they want to pay Mario Williams and when that day comes, they have to be comfortable with Williams despite being injured for three straight years. Also, they have to feel comfortable that Williams is the guy who can make Wade Phillips scheme and not the other way around. If Mario is just a system player, then the Texans need to think long and hard about whether or not a faster edge rusher would provide a more consistent pass rusher for much less money than Mario Williams will be asking for coming off of a sting on the IR.

Link (http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2011/10/no-mario-williams-does-not-make-antonio-smith-better/)

Hervoyel
11-05-2011, 02:07 PM
For me the answer is "No, I would not trade Mario if it meant..... whatever". I try to sign Mario because I think he was starting to really click in this system and I want to see him in it next year.

Wolf
11-05-2011, 02:24 PM
http://www2.gettyimageslatam.com/passImage.php?args=xc%2F107963025.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c% 3DEWSAsset%26k%3D2%26d%3D77BFBA49EF87892102A727B16 36DE2E62848283443A63190D32589B79E31EBB6F3F1857599D B94E9&fname=107963025.jpg

uhh hello? uhhh, I scheme, uhhh, to put the players ,uhhh, in the best position to ,uhhh, succeed



just thought I'd throw that out there. hard to compare Mario with any year before.

Wolf
11-05-2011, 02:25 PM
For me the answer is "No, I would not trade Mario if it meant..... whatever". I try to sign Mario because I think he was starting to really click in this system and I want to see him in it next year.


this^^^

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 03:07 PM
For me the answer is "No, I would not trade Mario if it meant..... whatever". I try to sign Mario because I think he was starting to really click in this system and I want to see him in it next year.

If you could choose one, which would you take?:

sign FA CB Brent Grimes, sign Arian Foster to a 5 year deal, extend Chris Myers.

or,

sign Mario Williams



I believe the coming off-season will force decisions like that one. Obviously, I don't know exactly what those decisions will be. However, Mario's signing will definitely limit our ability to re-sign our guys and certainly our freedom in FA.

Norg
11-05-2011, 03:14 PM
I gots to look at reality here mario is a little to big to ay olb in a 3-4 so i say we give him to a 4-3 team that really wants him and get another good olb who can drop into coverege has well has rush cause lets face it this is a passing leauge and qb are gettin rid of the ball real quick imo. We need speed

ObsiWan
11-05-2011, 03:34 PM
If you could choose one, which would you take?:

sign FA CB Brent Grimes, sign Arian Foster to a 5 year deal, extend Chris Myers.

or,

sign Mario Williams



I believe the coming off-season will force decisions like that one. Obviously, I don't know exactly what those decisions will be. However, Mario's signing will definitely limit our ability to re-sign our guys and certainly our freedom in FA.

So you actually think you can pay a top-flight CB AND a league-leading rusher AND the starting center on the best O-line we've ever put together for the franchise money they might pay Mario???

Seriously? You're talking $30 million and then some for those three guys if you go by franchise tag prices. No way Mario alone is going to command - or demand - that kind of cash.

Go back and re-do your math.

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 03:42 PM
So you actually think you can pay a top-flight CB AND a league-leading rusher AND the starting center on the best O-line we've ever put together for the franchise money they might pay Mario???

Seriously?

I think Grimes will get something like: 6 for $45 million. Myers will get something like 5 and $20 million. Foster will get something like 5 for $40 million. A lot of that is back end stuff, though.

Mario, I believe, will get something like: $6 for 75 million (look at the Charles Johnson deal)... His bonus money will be very large as well. Therefore, though the cumulative total money is more for the other scenario (Grimes, Myers, Foster), the cap reality the first 3 years would be the same, basically.

dalemurphy
11-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Here's a question: Mario and Lamar Woodley are both on schedule to be UFAs... Who would you rather pay to play OLB in Wade's 3-4? I would much rather pay Woodley, though I think Mario may end up getting the bigger offer, though I would be almost certain that no other 3-4 team in the NFL will offer Mario a contract of any size to play OLB. Who disagrees?

Mario should be a LDE in a 4-3. That, IMO, is how to maximize his value.

badboy
11-05-2011, 03:54 PM
The cost to franchise a defensive end is $12.4 million per Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchise_Tag)

According to the football outsiders it will cost a team $10.09 million to apply the franchise tag to an OLB. LINK (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-cap/2011/under-cap-2011-franchise-tags)

Seems to me you were right the first time with the $10 mil number.

That's less than he's due this year.

Whoever quoted that $20 million number was talking out of his (or her) butt.I think you are confused. Mario Williams base salary for 2011 season is $13.8m (cap $15m) Round up to $14m. Even if tagged as OLB he must be paid 120% of his last year's salary. If tagged for next season $14m (100%) + $2.8m (20%) = $16.8m.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

Mario as a free agent will be tagged as a franchise player. He can be then identified as exclusive or non-exclusive. Here is definition and terms:
Exclusive= Only his team can negotiate with player.

Any Club that designates a Franchise Player as "Exclusive" shall be the only Club with which that Franchise Player may negotiate or sign a contract. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as an Exclusive Franchise Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest salaries (as calculated at the end of the free agency signing period) for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.

Non-exclusive= player can negotiate with any team but:

If the team elects to name the player "non-exclusive" then the player shall be permitted to negotiate a contract with any Club as if he were an UFA; however, Draft Choice Compensation of TWO first round draft selections shall be awarded to the prior club in the event that he signs with the new club. For Non-Exlusive Franchise Players, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest PRIOR-YEAR salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games in the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.

OR-he can be tagged as a "transitional" player.

Each Club can also designate one UFA or RFA as a Transition Player.....
Any Club that designates a Transition Player shall receive the Rights of First Refusal. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as a Transition Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract for the average of the ten largest prior year salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.
**Note I have edited this and full article can be read at: http://www.askthecommish.com/freeagency/

After years of research, this is the guy that explains tags the best imo. I have used him for 3 years. Hope this is helpful?

Steve

badboy
11-05-2011, 04:10 PM
If you could choose one, which would you take?:

sign FA CB Brent Grimes, sign Arian Foster to a 5 year deal, extend Chris Myers.

or,

sign Mario Williams



I believe the coming off-season will force decisions like that one. Obviously, I don't know exactly what those decisions will be. However, Mario's signing will definitely limit our ability to re-sign our guys and certainly our freedom in FA.Grimes was tagged by Atlanta & will cost a first round + huge contract. Not saying I would not considered it as he looks very good stat wise.

thunderkyss
11-05-2011, 04:14 PM
We're going to the play-offs without Mario Williams. That will give the Texans all the leverage they need to sign Mario to a reasonable contract before FA.

If, however, our pass rush is perceived as the reason we don't advance as far as we should, then Mario will have some leverage.
Then you can go into the draft looking for a pass rusher (that may or may not pay off) or FA (that may or may not pay off) or sign the big guy where you know what you are going to get.

I honestly don't g.a.s. It's too early to worry about that any way.

infantrycak
11-05-2011, 04:30 PM
Trench warfare is all about winning the battle with the guy in front of you. Whether Mario Williams is there or not, Antonio Smith has to battle the player who is in front of him.

From dale's linked article.

Seriously Lance? Respect really just went down for you. The idea NFL line play is just a mano on mano matter is well just ludicrous. It matters who is assigned to block you. Who is assigned to block you is dependent on who is on the field with you. It isn't just block "the player" who is in front of you.

ChampionTexan
11-05-2011, 04:30 PM
Grimes was tagged by Atlanta & will cost a first round + huge contract. Not saying I would not considered it as he looks very good stat wise.

Grimes was tendered as a restricted free agent for 2011 and signed a one year contract as a result. He will have four accrued seasons entering the 2012 season, and therefore can not be restricted again. Last years designation means nothing. He can be franchised, or he could agree to an extension prior to the start of the 2012 free agency period. Short of one of those two things happening, Atlanta cannot keep him from becoming a UFA, and any NFL team will be able sign him with no compensation going to the Falcons.

ObsiWan
11-05-2011, 04:52 PM
I think you are confused. Mario Williams base salary for 2011 season is $13.8m (cap $15m) Round up to $14m. Even if tagged as OLB he must be paid 120% of his last year's salary. If tagged for next season $14m (100%) + $2.8m (20%) = $16.8m.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

Mario as a free agent will be tagged as a franchise player. He can be then identified as exclusive or non-exclusive. Here is definition and terms:
Exclusive= Only his team can negotiate with player.

Any Club that designates a Franchise Player as "Exclusive" shall be the only Club with which that Franchise Player may negotiate or sign a contract. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as an Exclusive Franchise Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest salaries (as calculated at the end of the free agency signing period) for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.

Non-exclusive= player can negotiate with any team but:

If the team elects to name the player "non-exclusive" then the player shall be permitted to negotiate a contract with any Club as if he were an UFA; however, Draft Choice Compensation of TWO first round draft selections shall be awarded to the prior club in the event that he signs with the new club. For Non-Exlusive Franchise Players, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest PRIOR-YEAR salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games in the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.

OR-he can be tagged as a "transitional" player.

Each Club can also designate one UFA or RFA as a Transition Player.....
Any Club that designates a Transition Player shall receive the Rights of First Refusal. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as a Transition Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract for the average of the ten largest prior year salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.
**Note I have edited this and full article can be read at: http://www.askthecommish.com/freeagency/

After years of research, this is the guy that explains tags the best imo. I have used him for 3 years. Hope this is helpful?

Steve

Thanks for the research - and the lesson in franchise tagging.
-repped

But the math still doesn't work for me when the proposed choice is a pro-bowl CB, a top flight RB, AND a starting center OR Mario at 16.8 million. I don't see where you can get those three guys for 16.8 mill.

The smart play, IMHO, is not to franchise Mario but to negotiate a 4 or 5 year deal at 8.5 or 9 million per year. Or maybe 7 or 8 million per year with incentives that could total up to 10 - 10.5 mil a year. Back loading that contract, as was done with his rookie year contract, would be even better.

ObsiWan
11-05-2011, 05:01 PM
From dale's linked article.

Seriously Lance? Respect really just went down for you. The idea NFL line play is just a mano on mano matter is well just ludicrous. It matters who is assigned to block you. Who is assigned to block you is dependent on who is on the field with you. It isn't just block "the player" who is in front of you.

I had issues with Lance's description myself. If he's correct - and he ain't - D-linemen never get double teamed. RBs never chip rushers on their way out of the backfield. Centers never help guards (or vice versa) with the DT or DE that's "in front of them".

LZ was being a little oversimplistic to make his point. And that subtracts from his credibility as an analyst.

badboy
11-05-2011, 05:01 PM
Grimes was tendered as a restricted free agent for 2011 and signed a one year contract as a result. He will have four accrued seasons entering the 2012 season, and therefore can not be restricted again. Last years designation means nothing. He can be franchised, or he could agree to an extension prior to the start of the 2012 free agency period. Short of one of those two things happening, Atlanta cannot keep him from becoming a UFA, and any NFL team will be able sign him with no compensation going to the Falcons.Thanks. He is an interesting prospect with I think 11 INTS last 2 years and one (?) this season.

hradhak
11-05-2011, 05:19 PM
One thing to consider in all this is that rookies became a lot more valuable in terms of cap space since you pay them a lot less guaranteed money compared to pre-lockout prices.

My guess is that Mario's resign price went down because of the injury but not enough that we aren't going to have to sacrifice other players to resign him. The other issue is how does Brooks Reed play through the rest of the season. So far he's good, but he's not Mario. His rookie contract is also much more cap friendly than Mario's. If we let Mario walk, we will need to draft an OLB in the first 3 rounds to get some depth.

badboy
11-05-2011, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the research - and the lesson in franchise tagging.
-repped

But the math still doesn't work for me when the proposed choice is a pro-bowl CB, a top flight RB, AND a starting center OR Mario at 16.8 million. I don't see where you can get those three guys for 16.8 mill.

The smart play, IMHO, is not to franchise Mario but to negotiate a 4 or 5 year deal at 8.5 or 9 million per year. Or maybe 7 or 8 million per year with incentives that could total up to 10 - 10.5 mil a year. Back loading that contract, as was done with his rookie year contract, would be even better.Just info to think about: 2011 team salary cap $120m & Texans paying Mario $14m so we have that $14m next season to use on Mario or else where. There is also a $3m amount that was not used this season and will be allowed next year. That adds up to $17m. We are @ about $900,000 under the 120 and that adds another million = $18m. The TV deal is expect to add apprx $13m to each team. That totals $31million. I would guess that increased radio & other revenue sources would add at least $1 million so we now have $32m for 2012. I expect Mario to sign long term deal with first year base at apprx $9m.

gafftop
11-05-2011, 06:16 PM
My feeling from March when I started this thread was to trade Mario. I think we will make the playoffs as is but with the addition of a real 1b receiver and a quality CB this team could have been a serious SB contender. One of my main reasons for the trade was Mario's propensity to injury. His injuries are strange injuries and don't seem to occur from major contact. Is he just so muscle bound that he gets injured easily. I don't see him getting more durable as he ages. If you put his history of injuries into the equation I just don't know about signing him to a long term contract. If you franchise you tie up a lot of money that could be used elsewhere and you basically set your self up to have a repeat of this year with respect to Mario only I don't think you can franchise again. I am not sure what you do with Mario at this point. I just hope he has some type of trade value left so we get something besides a compensation pick.

badboy
11-05-2011, 06:34 PM
My feeling from March when I started this thread was to trade Mario. I think we will make the playoffs as is but with the addition of a real 1b receiver and a quality CB this team could have been a serious SB contender. One of my main reasons for the trade was Mario's propensity to injury. His injuries are strange injuries and don't seem to occur from major contact. Is he just so muscle bound that he gets injured easily. I don't see him getting more durable as he ages. If you put his history of injuries into the equation I just don't know about signing him to a long term contract. If you franchise you tie up a lot of money that could be used elsewhere and you basically set your self up to have a repeat of this year with respect to Mario only I don't think you can franchise again. I am not sure what you do with Mario at this point. I just hope he has some type of trade value left so we get something besides a compensation pick.

Agree on this post. A first and $8-9m for CB Brent Grimes (Atlanta) and savings to go to Foster. But Reed really nee to pick it up.

thunderkyss
11-05-2011, 06:46 PM
One of my main reasons for the trade was Mario's propensity to injury. His injuries are strange injuries and don't seem to occur from major contact. Is he just so muscle bound that he gets injured easily. I don't see him getting more durable as he ages. If you put his history of injuries into the equation I just don't know about signing him to a long term contract.

Mario is what 25, 26 years old? He's yet to hit his prime. His "injury" history is nowhere near as bad as your post suggests.

The next 5 to 6 years will be the best years of his career.

I don't know that I like him as a 3-4 OLB, but he is & will be one of the most dominant pass rushers over that time period. Would like for him to be on this team.

badboy
11-05-2011, 07:03 PM
If he could avg 1 sack a game and have a full season he would be great but what are odds of that happening over his new contract?

fiasco west
11-05-2011, 07:04 PM
My feeling from March when I started this thread was to trade Mario. I think we will make the playoffs as is but with the addition of a real 1b receiver and a quality CB this team could have been a serious SB contender. One of my main reasons for the trade was Mario's propensity to injury. His injuries are strange injuries and don't seem to occur from major contact. Is he just so muscle bound that he gets injured easily. I don't see him getting more durable as he ages. If you put his history of injuries into the equation I just don't know about signing him to a long term contract. If you franchise you tie up a lot of money that could be used elsewhere and you basically set your self up to have a repeat of this year with respect to Mario only I don't think you can franchise again. I am not sure what you do with Mario at this point. I just hope he has some type of trade value left so we get something besides a compensation pick.

This team beat the Steelers at full strentgh. With Mario and AJ on the field. I feel like WITH Mario the pass rush is top 5 and WITH Mario this team IS a contender. Now it may be a darkhorse contender but one nonetheless.

Also this injury thing...pretty sure we've gone through this before but the man has not missed many games at all. Up until this season Mario has missed a total of 3 games.

So I don't see this injury history.

EDIT: Also pass rushers are premier players on defense. Not many teams are going to give up a elite pass rusher for a #2 WR or CB...it just ain't happening. Much easier to come by a solid #2 at WR or CB than a premier pass rusher.

badboy
11-05-2011, 07:59 PM
This team beat the Steelers at full strentgh. With Mario and AJ on the field. I feel like WITH Mario the pass rush is top 5 and WITH Mario this team IS a contender. Now it may be a darkhorse contender but one nonetheless.

Also this injury thing...pretty sure we've gone through this before but the man has not missed many games at all. Up until this season Mario has missed a total of 3 games.

So I don't see this injury history.

EDIT: Also pass rushers are premier players on defense. Not many teams are going to give up a elite pass rusher for a #2 WR or CB...it just ain't happening. Much easier to come by a solid #2 at WR or CB than a premier pass rusher.Ah but did the4 many injuries greatly effect his abilities. ALso, not everyone agrees with your assessment Mario is an "elite" pas rusher.

ObsiWan
11-05-2011, 08:04 PM
My feeling from March when I started this thread was to trade Mario. I think we will make the playoffs as is but with the addition of a real 1b receiver and a quality CB this team could have been a serious SB contender. One of my main reasons for the trade was Mario's propensity to injury. His injuries are strange injuries and don't seem to occur from major contact. Is he just so muscle bound that he gets injured easily. I don't see him getting more durable as he ages. If you put his history of injuries into the equation I just don't know about signing him to a long term contract. If you franchise you tie up a lot of money that could be used elsewhere and you basically set your self up to have a repeat of this year with respect to Mario only I don't think you can franchise again. I am not sure what you do with Mario at this point. I just hope he has some type of trade value left so we get something besides a compensation pick.

The beauty of the long term contract as I suggested it be played is:
(a) It can be structured such that a fair portion of the money is incentive laden. Mario has to get X number of sacks to get bonus A and he has to make the pro bowl to get bonus B and he has to help the team make the playoffs to get bonus C. Stuff of that nature.

(b) If we want to clear cap space at some future point, there's the option of releasing him as Jacksonville did with Garrard. Happens all the time.

And I don't really see where franchising Mario is applicable. I thought franchising done to benefit players who think they're underpaid and want to test the open market. When have we ever heard that kind of "I'm sooo unjustly underpaid" talk - like Lance Briggs keeps doing and CJ0K did this preseason - from Mario or his agent?? Anyone who has will have to show me some quotes that back that up.

I just think an incentive-laden contract extension is the smart play for both the Texans and Mario.

badboy
11-05-2011, 08:24 PM
The beauty of the long term contract as I suggested it be played is:
(a) It can be structured such that a fair portion of the money is incentive laden. Mario has to get X number of sacks to get bonus A and he has to make the pro bowl to get bonus B and he has to help the team make the playoffs to get bonus C. Stuff of that nature.

(b) If we want to clear cap space at some future point, there's the option of releasing him as Jacksonville did with Garrard. Happens all the time.

And I don't really see where franchising Mario is applicable. I thought franchising done to benefit players who think they're underpaid and want to test the open market. When have we ever heard that kind of "I'm sooo unjustly underpaid" talk - like Lance Briggs keeps doing and CJ0K did this preseason - from Mario or his agent?? Anyone who has will have to show me some quotes that back that up.

I just think an incentive-laden contract extension is the smart play for both the Texans and Mario.

This plus heavy on the back end. A huge bonus upfront allows lower base for first year or two. We should be able to keep Mario IF we choose AND have money under new TV income added to cap to go after another free agent.

fiasco west
11-05-2011, 08:29 PM
Ah but did the4 many injuries greatly effect his abilities. ALso, not everyone agrees with your assessment Mario is an "elite" pas rusher.

They really don't have to. It's like 3 guys ahead of him in sacks since he's entered the league. The only ones that don't tend to agree are those who thinks he needs to be in the backfield every single down.

How many pass rushers are better than him? You don't make all-pro teams unless you are elite.

steelbtexan
11-05-2011, 11:15 PM
Give me Meachem, Myers,Foster and Courtney Upshaw with a 1st rd pick over 8 healthy games of MW any day and twice on Sundays. Dont give me stats about MW's games played. He may play but he's always hurt for about half the season. This yrs even more than half a season.

Was it last yr that BoBBy called out MW's effort level? I honestly cant remember.

leebigeztx
11-06-2011, 04:03 AM
I think Grimes will get something like: 6 for $45 million. Myers will get something like 5 and $20 million. Foster will get something like 5 for $40 million. A lot of that is back end stuff, though.

Mario, I believe, will get something like: $6 for 75 million (look at the Charles Johnson deal)... His bonus money will be very large as well. Therefore, though the cumulative total money is more for the other scenario (Grimes, Myers, Foster), the cap reality the first 3 years would be the same, basically.


There's a reason why pass rushers have the 2nd highest franchise tag, they're more valuable. Grimes is just solid, meyers is god, and foster has been great. You pay in order of rarity and importance. Mario is a all pro type, not just pro bowl caliber. How many of those guy get free at a premium position become free. At the age of 27? If bill had to do it again, they would've payed seymore.

dalemurphy
11-06-2011, 05:57 AM
There's a reason why pass rushers have the 2nd highest franchise tag, they're more valuable. Grimes is just solid, meyers is god, and foster has been great. You pay in order of rarity and importance. Mario is a all pro type, not just pro bowl caliber. How many of those guy get free at a premium position become free. At the age of 27? If bill had to do it again, they would've payed seymore.

I don't understand why some of you think Mario is an elite pass rusher. He isn't. He's good. He had one great season: 2007 and one very good one: 2008. Better pass rushers than Mario:
Dwight Freeney
Charles Johnson
J. Peppers
James Harrison
Woodley
Clay Matthews
Terrell Suggs
Robert Mathis
Tamba Hali
Demarcus Ware
Trent Cole
Justin Tuck
Osi Umenyiora
Jared Allen

those are just some names off the top of my head. Yes, I realize he plays the run better than some of those guys. But, he's no All-Pro. He's a pass rusher with no pass rush moves. He has one: the bull rush. That's it.

fiasco west
11-06-2011, 09:05 AM
Heh unreal.

Mario made the all-pro team twice. You want to know how many times Freeney made it? 3 times.

Charles Johnson- 0
Harrison-4
Woodley-1
Mathis- 0
Really I can go on.

You want to say he's not All-pro? C'mon man. He was on his way to another one too and the main reason he's had two just solid years is because our d-coordinators sucked. Everyone on defense sucked last year. To make the All-pro team you must be elite, especially the first team which he did twice and I doubt it will be the last of his young career.

Honestly I am surprised that guys are ready to just give up a premiere pass rusher. Also i'm sorry but those that think the pass rush has not been effected with Mario out are kidding themselves.

thunderkyss
11-06-2011, 09:23 AM
Heh unreal.


Honestly I am surprised that guys are ready to just give up a premiere pass rusher. Also i'm sorry but those that think the pass rush has not been effected with Mario out are kidding themselves.

Some people are having difficulty seeing scheme & talent. Wade Phillips is doing a good job of keeping pressure on the opposing QB, but he's having to sacrifice in other aspects of the game. We aren't playing any elite offenses, so it isn't really hurting us yet.

When we get to the play-offs & have to face the Bills or the Patriots, we'll see what's missing.

One caveat... if Brooks Reed or Connor Barwin can become that force we expect out of a second round pick, that changes everything. We've got 9 weeks for them to learn the things they need to learn to compensate for the loss of Mario Williams & it's totally possible. It's an uphill climb, but I feel good about Wade & Herring's ability to get these guys ready.

welsh texan
11-06-2011, 09:38 AM
I don't understand why some of you think Mario is an elite pass rusher. He isn't. He's good. He had one great season: 2007 and one very good one: 2008. Better pass rushers than Mario:
Dwight Freeney
Charles Johnson
J. Peppers
James Harrison
Woodley
Clay Matthews
Terrell Suggs
Robert Mathis
Tamba Hali
Demarcus Ware
Trent Cole
Justin Tuck
Osi Umenyiora
Jared Allen

those are just some names off the top of my head. Yes, I realize he plays the run better than some of those guys. But, he's no All-Pro. He's a pass rusher with no pass rush moves. He has one: the bull rush. That's it.

Bollocks mate, He is All-Pro, he's been elected All-Pro twice, that is the definition of being All-Pro, whether you've been elected or not, he has.

I cannot understand your hatred of Mario? The only thing I can think is maybe you backed Bush or Young back in 2006 on your blog and are trying to save face by making him seem worse than he is??

Sure, he gets injured too much, and sure, he's expensive, but he showed through 4 games this season that he has it in him, with the right coaching, to become one of if not THE best pass rusher in the league, the guy was unstoppable through the first quarter of the season and thats with a position change and shortened off season programme, just imagine what will happen when he improves!!

Or you just keep on kidding yourself.

badboy
11-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Give me Meachem, Myers,Foster and Courtney Upshaw with a 1st rd pick over 8 healthy games of MW any day and twice on Sundays. Dont give me stats about MW's games played. He may play but he's always hurt for about half the season. This yrs even more than half a season.

Was it last yr that BoBBy called out MW's effort level? I honestly cant remember.Conner Barwin, Brooks Reed and Upshaw whooeee!

dalemurphy
11-07-2011, 08:37 AM
Bollocks mate, He is All-Pro, he's been elected All-Pro twice, that is the definition of being All-Pro, whether you've been elected or not, he has.

I cannot understand your hatred of Mario? The only thing I can think is maybe you backed Bush or Young back in 2006 on your blog and are trying to save face by making him seem worse than he is??

Sure, he gets injured too much, and sure, he's expensive, but he showed through 4 games this season that he has it in him, with the right coaching, to become one of if not THE best pass rusher in the league, the guy was unstoppable through the first quarter of the season and thats with a position change and shortened off season programme, just imagine what will happen when he improves!!

Or you just keep on kidding yourself.

I was a Mario fan from the beginning. I hate the Longhorns and don't believe in taking RBs with the 1st pick.

How many times did safety Roy Williams get elected as an All-Pro? Sorry, but I don't really care for popularity contests. I already know that there exists an inflated opinion of Mario's performance.... He played like an All-Pro in 2007 and most of 2008 so those were earned. I'm not sure what those awards have to do with 2011 or 2012 though.

By the way, that list was a list of better pass rushers. I don't neccessarily think those are all better players... just better pass rushers.

beerlover
11-07-2011, 08:53 AM
It's good business to be prepared. Have they had any contract talks w/MW? What does he/agent want? This will determine if he comes back or not a Texan. He, the franchise & fan base already have a lot invested both money wise & emotionally. I hope it doesn't come down to trading him, he is such a signature Texan but if they cannot agree the Texans will move forward. :logo:

badboy
11-07-2011, 09:49 AM
It's good business to be prepared. Have they had any contract talks w/MW? What does he/agent want? This will determine if he comes back or not a Texan. He, the franchise & fan base already have a lot invested both money wise & emotionally. I hope it doesn't come down to trading him, he is such a signature Texan but if they cannot agree the Texans will move forward. :logo:Hopefully, Chris Olsen VP and contract guru is already in discussions with Mario's agent. I would love to see a healthy Mario on this team with a reasonable contract. I would rather see Mario traded to a team giving us high selections in 2012 draft. Reed and Barwin continue to look good. Texans are in the driver's seat imo.

gafftop
11-07-2011, 10:44 AM
One of my main concerns and i think one of the main problems in getting something in a trade for Mario is injury concerns. Every year he has "something" that causes him to play below optimum levels. This along with the change in defensive systems, his salary, and his inconsistent effort makes me want to make a trade. I do want it to be a good or at least a fair trade. I also think another year of injuries will lower his trade value. I think it is easier to get a d lineman than a true shutdown corner. IF Mario could play up to his potential then I would not be proposing this trade, but due to injuries he never has. I think you help yourself multiple ways with this trade. Along with the shutdown corner and a proven d lineman you either move up in the draft or get additional quality draft choices. I am afraid next year we will have a repeat of the Carr/Kubiak incident where Kubiak realizes Carr isn't the one and then gets nothing for Carr. I could easily see this happening with Mario/Wade.

Hopefully, Chris Olsen VP and contract guru is already in discussions with Mario's agent. I would love to see a healthy Mario on this team with a reasonable contract. I would rather see Mario traded to a team giving us high selections in 2012 draft. Reed and Barwin continue to look good. Texans are in the driver's seat imo.

I agree.

I also would love to see a healthy Mario but I am not sure the possibility of this happening is good. I know he has great "potential" and you don't want to trade away potential but you don't win championships with potential. It isn't like this is Mario's 1st or 2nd year in the league. The main reason this thread was started back in March was because the Texans had and still have holes to fill. And Mario, due to injuries is unable to play at a high level.

By trading Mario before the season I thought they could PU a 1b WR and a quality CB. I know we got Joseph but can you imagine if we had traded and gotten a real 1bWR and another quality CB where this team would be now. I think with those additions this team could have realistic SB aspirations.

Signing/franchising Mario is setting up a repeat of this year with Mario. I do think another year like this year added on to last year in regards to injuries for Mario will drastically damage our ability to get something of quality in return in a trade.

The Texans are way below average in WR as a group and could use a quality CB plus they need to continue to rebuild in other areas.

I think we will be saying during the playoffs, " If only we had better WRs and another CB we could have won that game."

Starting to ramble. You all know my take on this. It hasn't changed.

Fico
11-07-2011, 11:22 AM
Dale,

You act is tired and played out. Everyone clearly knows where you stand on Mario Williams and your opinion of him is wrong. Yes, I said your opinion, is wrong.

What he will command on the market as a free agent will dictate that. This organization would be foolish not resign Mario.

Pay Mario.
Foster will get a deal somewhere in the JC range, which is where it should be.
Pay Meyers.

Release and restructure whomever you need to make this work.

dalemurphy
11-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Dale,

You act is tired and played out. Everyone clearly knows where you stand on Mario Williams and your opinion of him is wrong. Yes, I said your opinion, is wrong.

What he will command on the market as a free agent will dictate that. This organization would be foolish not resign Mario.

Pay Mario.
Foster will get a deal somewhere in the JC range, which is where it should be.
Pay Meyers.

Release and restructure whomever you need to make this work.


I get that people may disagree with my assessment of Mario. That's understandable. However, I don't get this attitude that we must re-sign him at any cost. Why? The Texans defense is playing consistent and with dominance without Mario in the lineup. How can anyone conclude that we should re-sign no matter how high the bidding gets and no matter if his contract damages our ability to re-sign other important members of this team. That doesn't make any sense. Why even watch the Texans this season? After all, Mario is on I.R., which means the Texans can't win. right?

Dutchrudder
11-07-2011, 12:45 PM
Hopefully, Chris Olsen VP and contract guru is already in discussions with Mario's agent. I would love to see a healthy Mario on this team with a reasonable contract. I would rather see Mario traded to a team giving us high selections in 2012 draft. Reed and Barwin continue to look good. Texans are in the driver's seat imo.

That may be a good preliminary step, but we really have to wait out his injury recovery before we go nuts and sign him to a 70 million dollar deal. No point in giving him a big deal if we don't know that he will be recovered by the beginning of next season. It's not a given that Mario will recover 100%.

Has Doc Jean given his opinion on Mario's injury and recovery time somewhere? I'm sure he would have some good insight on that front.

thunderkyss
11-07-2011, 01:41 PM
I get that people may disagree with my assessment of Mario. That's understandable. However, I don't get this attitude that we must re-sign him at any cost. Why? The Texans defense is playing consistent and with dominance without Mario in the lineup. How can anyone conclude that we should re-sign no matter how high the bidding gets and no matter if his contract damages our ability to re-sign other important members of this team. That doesn't make any sense. Why even watch the Texans this season? After all, Mario is on I.R., which means the Texans can't win. right?

Who said at any cost?

We are all saying Mario & his agent should take several things into consideration..... the way the defense is playing without him, his injury history.... & if we do get to the Super Bowl & Mario wants to be part of a Super Bowl winning team, he's better off resigning with us.

We've got all the leverage.

dalemurphy
11-07-2011, 01:55 PM
Who said at any cost?

We are all saying Mario & his agent should take several things into consideration..... the way the defense is playing without him, his injury history.... & if we do get to the Super Bowl & Mario wants to be part of a Super Bowl winning team, he's better off resigning with us.

We've got all the leverage.

This is what Fico said and I was responding to:

What he will command on the market as a free agent will dictate that. This organization would be foolish not resign Mario.
Pay Mario.
Release and restructure whomever you need to make this work.

I would not let the market set the terms. First of all, there are 32 teams and some of them aren't too bright. Some of those teams will have to spend money to reach the cap minimum number. Furthermore, some of those run a 4-3 defense and need a strong 4-3 DE to play opposite their pure, weak side speed rusher. Those teams will inflate the market for Mario.

The Pencil Neck
11-07-2011, 03:03 PM
I get that people may disagree with my assessment of Mario. That's understandable. However, I don't get this attitude that we must re-sign him at any cost. Why? The Texans defense is playing consistent and with dominance without Mario in the lineup. How can anyone conclude that we should re-sign no matter how high the bidding gets and no matter if his contract damages our ability to re-sign other important members of this team. That doesn't make any sense. Why even watch the Texans this season? After all, Mario is on I.R., which means the Texans can't win. right?

I'm fine if Mario leaves and I'm fine if Mario stays. I hope he stays.

Our defense is good and we're winning without him. But our defense has only really been tested a couple of times. We've been lucky to get some bad teams to pad our stats with since he's been out.

I think our defense is even better with Mario. I think we're a better team with Mario. Is the loss of him a mortal blow? No. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.

badboy
11-07-2011, 03:35 PM
That may be a good preliminary step, but we really have to wait out his injury recovery before we go nuts and sign him to a 70 million dollar deal. No point in giving him a big deal if we don't know that he will be recovered by the beginning of next season. It's not a given that Mario will recover 100%.

Has Doc Jean given his opinion on Mario's injury and recovery time somewhere? I'm sure he would have some good insight on that front.Agreed but you can get the parameters down. For example Mario could state he wants to see what other teams will offer.

gafftop
11-07-2011, 04:10 PM
I think you are confused. Mario Williams base salary for 2011 season is $13.8m (cap $15m) Round up to $14m. Even if tagged as OLB he must be paid 120% of his last year's salary. If tagged for next season $14m (100%) + $2.8m (20%) = $16.8m.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

Mario as a free agent will be tagged as a franchise player. He can be then identified as exclusive or non-exclusive. Here is definition and terms:
Exclusive= Only his team can negotiate with player.

Any Club that designates a Franchise Player as "Exclusive" shall be the only Club with which that Franchise Player may negotiate or sign a contract. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as an Exclusive Franchise Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest salaries (as calculated at the end of the free agency signing period) for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.

Non-exclusive= player can negotiate with any team but:

If the team elects to name the player "non-exclusive" then the player shall be permitted to negotiate a contract with any Club as if he were an UFA; however, Draft Choice Compensation of TWO first round draft selections shall be awarded to the prior club in the event that he signs with the new club. For Non-Exlusive Franchise Players, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest PRIOR-YEAR salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games in the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.

OR-he can be tagged as a "transitional" player.

Each Club can also designate one UFA or RFA as a Transition Player.....
Any Club that designates a Transition Player shall receive the Rights of First Refusal. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as a Transition Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract for the average of the ten largest prior year salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.
**Note I have edited this and full article can be read at: http://www.askthecommish.com/freeagency/

After years of research, this is the guy that explains tags the best imo. I have used him for 3 years. Hope this is helpful?

Steve

Do you think any team would give 2 first rounds for Mario????

Ole Miss Texan
11-07-2011, 04:13 PM
Do you think any team would give 2 first rounds for Mario????
Doubtful, but the Texans and said team could negotiate the compensation.

badboy
11-07-2011, 04:18 PM
Doubtful, but the Texans and said team could negotiate the compensation.

There you go. Sort of like we did for Schaub IIRC.

thunderkyss
11-07-2011, 04:21 PM
I'm fine if Mario leaves and I'm fine if Mario stays. I hope he stays.


If he leaves, add a dynamic pass rusher to the top of your next mock. Heck, add two just in case.

Dutchrudder
11-07-2011, 04:37 PM
If he leaves, add a dynamic pass rusher to the top of your next mock. Heck, add two just in case.

Maybe we can trade him for Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff and 1st. Sounds about even...:koolaid:

:D

thunderkyss
11-07-2011, 04:59 PM
Maybe we can trade him for Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff and 1st. Sounds about even...:koolaid:

:D

Nix that Damarcus Ware talk..... costs too much for some of our fans. We can probably get a kick returner, long snapper, STs gunner & a ball boy for the cost of Ware.

leebigeztx
11-08-2011, 01:34 AM
I don't understand why some of you think Mario is an elite pass rusher. He isn't. He's good. He had one great season: 2007 and one very good one: 2008. Better pass rushers than Mario:
Dwight Freeney
Charles Johnson
J. Peppers
James Harrison
Woodley
Clay Matthews
Terrell Suggs
Robert Mathis
Tamba Hali
Demarcus Ware
Trent Cole
Justin Tuck
Osi Umenyiora
Jared Allen

those are just some names off the top of my head. Yes, I realize he plays the run better than some of those guys. But, he's no All-Pro. He's a pass rusher with no pass rush moves. He has one: the bull rush. That's it.

All of those guys on ur list have a all pro with him. Suggs has ngata, harrison/woodley, tuck/osi,allen/williams,ware/ratliff and so on. Who has played with mario? Okoye? Smith? Weaver? As I've said before and regardless of what you think,teams always turn protection to mario. That kind of guy get premium money. So wheher you think he should or shouldn't get paid by the texans, he will get 13m per.

dalemurphy
11-08-2011, 02:40 AM
All of those guys on ur list have a all pro with him. Suggs has ngata, harrison/woodley, tuck/osi,allen/williams,ware/ratliff and so on. Who has played with mario? Okoye? Smith? Weaver? As I've said before and regardless of what you think,teams always turn protection to mario. That kind of guy get premium money. So wheher you think he should or shouldn't get paid by the texans, he will get 13m per.

Mario/Antonio Smith

You are making stuff up now:

J Allen - (Williams?... you are joking, right? Kevin Williams0 that's your argument?)
D.Ware - calling Ratliff an all-pro is a little generous. He was good 3 yrs ago.
T. Hali - ?
J. Peppers - ?
Trent Cole - ?
Clay Matthews - ?
Charles Johnson - ?

Maybe the Texans will pay Mario. I don't think so, though. After all, they could've extended him this off-season to save millions of cap dollars for the Joseph/Manning deals and others. Instead, they didn't even discuss it with Mario but restructured a bunch of other deals in order to make room.

Suggesting paying a player over 10% of the entire cap after consecutive trips to the I.R. seems crazy to me and bad business. The Steelers wouldn't do that. The Patriots wouldn't do that. The Eagles wouldn't do that. Mario hasn't had a 10 sack season since 2008. Why are you so desperate to pay him? The Texans are a good defense, right now, with him on the I.R. Imagine how good they would be right now if, instead of Mario's $14 million cap number, the Texans had spent much of that $14 million to add further depth at safety, CB, LB, NT and WR. Without Mario, all those areas could've been addressed in the off-season. Even if you like Mario and want him on the team, surely you can acknowledge that spreading the money around could end up working out better. can you?

leebigeztx
11-08-2011, 04:08 AM
Mario/Antonio Smith

You are making stuff up now:

J Allen - (Williams?... you are joking, right? Kevin Williams0 that's your argument?)
D.Ware - calling Ratliff an all-pro is a little generous. He was good 3 yrs ago.
T. Hali - ?
J. Peppers - ?
Trent Cole - ?
Clay Matthews - ?
Charles Johnson - ?

Maybe the Texans will pay Mario. I don't think so, though. After all, they could've extended him this off-season to save millions of cap dollars for the Joseph/Manning deals and others. Instead, they didn't even discuss it with Mario but restructured a bunch of other deals in order to make room.

Suggesting paying a player over 10% of the entire cap after consecutive trips to the I.R. seems crazy to me and bad business. The Steelers wouldn't do that. The Patriots wouldn't do that. The Eagles wouldn't do that. Mario hasn't had a 10 sack season since 2008. Why are you so desperate to pay him? The Texans are a good defense, right now, with him on the I.R. Imagine how good they would be right now if, instead of Mario's $14 million cap number, the Texans had spent much of that $14 million to add further depth at safety, CB, LB, NT and WR. Without Mario, all those areas could've been addressed in the off-season. Even if you like Mario and want him on the team, surely you can acknowledge that spreading the money around could end up working out better. can you?

You pay premium players. You brought smith as if he's a probowl caliber player or something. Hali had 1 double digit sack season to his credt. Clay matthews only had jenkins and raji in front of him. You could get depth for marios money, but how many teams sacrifice an elite player at a premium position for depth? Its a lot easier finding those positions and players youstated vs finding a mario williams at his age.

By your logic the texans should've have paid johnson. He's missed more games than mario and he makes more than jennings and nelson combined.

mussop
11-08-2011, 06:56 AM
Bollocks mate, He is All-Pro, he's been elected All-Pro twice, that is the definition of being All-Pro, whether you've been elected or not, he has.

I cannot understand your hatred of Mario? The only thing I can think is maybe you backed Bush or Young back in 2006 on your blog and are trying to save face by making him seem worse than he is??

Sure, he gets injured too much, and sure, he's expensive, but he showed through 4 games this season that he has it in him, with the right coaching, to become one of if not THE best pass rusher in the league, the guy was unstoppable through the first quarter of the season and thats with a position change and shortened off season programme, just imagine what will happen when he improves!!

Or you just keep on kidding yourself.

Unstoppable??? You are the one kidding yourself. Unstoppable, what a joke. Man I wish someone would post a video of all the sacks Mario got this year. He was starting to get better at OLB for sure but to say he was unstoppable is ridiculous.

Could Mario be a dominant OLB? Sure if he can stay healthy, if he can get rid of the false step that has when standing and if he puts in the time and effort to learn some solid technique. I appeared He was starting to get rid of the false step. Still he has absolutely zero moves after six years of rushing the QB. Theres a bullrush, a loop around where he just tries to run around the tackle and that's it. Of course this could be because of the crappy coaching he has received but Kolier (sp) is still the DL coach so........ The health issue isn't as big a deal to me as others. Most players stay injured and he has shown he can play through injuries. This one just happened to require surgery. He is still plenty you g enough to come back from this with no effects.

I still want him back just not at OLB. He needs to be on the line where his athletic ability combined with his size would benefit the team more. Smith on one side, Watts in the middle and Mario on the other side. Now flank Mario and smith with Barwin and Reed and who is the OL going to key on. And don't tell me Watt can't play the nose better than Cody.

dalemurphy
11-08-2011, 07:01 AM
You pay premium players. You brought smith as if he's a probowl caliber player or something. Hali had 1 double digit sack season to his credt. Clay matthews only had jenkins and raji in front of him. You could get depth for marios money, but how many teams sacrifice an elite player at a premium position for depth? Its a lot easier finding those positions and players youstated vs finding a mario williams at his age.

By your logic the texans should've have paid johnson. He's missed more games than mario and he makes more than jennings and nelson combined.


by your logic, we should pay Andre Johnson $30 million per year.

AJ actually is a great player and a difference-maker. His presence changes everything on our offense. Mario simply isn't the player you think he is. Antonio Smith is a probowl caliber player. He is an elite DT or DE in a 3-4.

Rey
11-08-2011, 08:30 AM
Honest question:

Do you guys think it's a coincidence that other guys haven't been as active with Mario off the field?


We have been playing good defense. But so were the browns until they ran into a real offense.

I don't wish ill will on the team just to prove a point, but if I'm looking at them objectively that has to come into consideration.

Dutchrudder
11-08-2011, 10:05 AM
Honest question:

Do you guys think it's a coincidence that other guys haven't been as active with Mario off the field?


We have been playing good defense. But so were the browns until they ran into a real offense.

I don't wish ill will on the team just to prove a point, but if I'm looking at them objectively that has to come into consideration.

I don't think that the effect Mario has on the defense is anywhere near the effect AJ has on the offense. I think at the end of the year we will know how much the defense misses Mario. I don't think it will be that noticeable, but I'd like to see how we do against Atlanta, Carolina and Cincy. Those are the best offenses left on our schedule, so they ought to point out our weaknesses.

leebigeztx
11-08-2011, 10:14 AM
by your logic, we should pay Andre Johnson $30 million per year.

AJ actually is a great player and a difference-maker. His presence changes everything on our offense. Mario simply isn't the player you think he is. Antonio Smith is a probowl caliber player. He is an elite DT or DE in a 3-4.

Antonio is nowhere close to a probowl player in any defense, sorry to tell you. I'm not saying pay andre 30 m, but how has the offense performed without out him? He's missed more games than mario and by your logic, his 13m per could be spread around. My whole point is you pay to keep your best players and sacrifice other positions or player. Peppers hasn't had a double digit sack season in a couple of years and there were question about his contract because it was in line with qb money. Carolina franchised him 2 times before he left via free agency. They paid johnson after 1 double digit sack season. Whether you or I like it or not mario will get 13m per. That's the going rate for a double digit sack guy which is what he is. Now if you think the texans will be better with that #2 wr or 2nd cb or nt or whomever else, that's your opinion. The health issue can always be dealt with contractualy by % of games played. He was on pace this year for about 15-18 sacks. Would 13m be too much for that kind of productivity?

74 Dean
11-08-2011, 11:28 AM
slightly off topic, but if we make the playoffs, cant we activate a player from IR/

Ole Miss Texan
11-08-2011, 11:30 AM
slightly off topic, but if we make the playoffs, cant we activate a player from IR/

No :(

Rey
11-08-2011, 11:33 AM
I don't think that the effect Mario has on the defense is anywhere near the effect AJ has on the offense. I think at the end of the year we will know how much the defense misses Mario. I don't think it will be that noticeable, but I'd like to see how we do against Atlanta, Carolina and Cincy. Those are the best offenses left on our schedule, so they ought to point out our weaknesses.


I have not seen anyone say that Mario has the exact same impact on the defense that AJ has on offense...

That said, our offense hasn't really suffered since AJ went out.

Mr teX
11-08-2011, 11:42 AM
I have not seen anyone say that Mario has the exact same impact on the defense that AJ has on offense...

That said, our offense hasn't really suffered since AJ went out.

That little hitch in their argument, they've still yet to address.

badboy
11-08-2011, 01:04 PM
I have not seen anyone say that Mario has the exact same impact on the defense that AJ has on offense...

That said, our offense hasn't really suffered since AJ went out.depth

Dutchrudder
11-08-2011, 01:29 PM
I have not seen anyone say that Mario has the exact same impact on the defense that AJ has on offense...

That said, our offense hasn't really suffered since AJ went out.

It was just a comparison as AJ is our best offensive player and Mario has been our best defensive player. The passing game has certainly taken a giant step back since AJ has been out, the difference is that the running game is making up for the passing game's deficiencies. We won against the Browns Sunday while passing for 119 yards and 0 TDs. That's not very Texans-like, but I'm happy that Foster and Tate can pick up the slack.

In any case, it seems the pass rush is doing just fine without Mario so far. It's not like our secondary all of a sudden stepped up and is covering up our pass-rushing deficiencies. I really don't see a huge drop-off since losing Mario yet, or at least not one that warrants a 13+ million/yr investment. But like I said, we need to play some good offenses before tossing him out. I'm still against franchise tagging him though. 17.76 million gtd is waaaaaay too much for anyone that's not a top 5 QB. If they can't get a decent deal done before free agency starts, then I think we need to let him walk.

Goatcheese
11-08-2011, 01:35 PM
The passrush has been ok since Mario went down, but they have struggled to get there with 4 on a regular basis the way they did when he was on the field.

mussop
11-08-2011, 02:02 PM
That said, our defense hasn't really suffered since Mario went out.

That little hitch in their argument, they've still yet to address.


It works both ways!

Mr teX
11-08-2011, 02:08 PM
That said, our defense hasn't really suffered since Mario went out.

That little hitch in their argument, they've still yet to address.


It works both ways!

Lol.... i see what you did there.

Goatcheese
11-08-2011, 02:18 PM
That said, our defense hasn't really suffered since Mario went out.

That little hitch in their argument, they've still yet to address.


It works both ways!

Who have they played since Mario went down? :spin:

Rey
11-08-2011, 02:29 PM
It was just a comparison as AJ is our best offensive player and Mario has been our best defensive player. The passing game has certainly taken a giant step back since AJ has been out, the difference is that the running game is making up for the passing game's deficiencies. We won against the Browns Sunday while passing for 119 yards and 0 TDs. That's not very Texans-like, but I'm happy that Foster and Tate can pick up the slack.

In any case, it seems the pass rush is doing just fine without Mario so far. It's not like our secondary all of a sudden stepped up and is covering up our pass-rushing deficiencies. I really don't see a huge drop-off since losing Mario yet, or at least not one that warrants a 13+ million/yr investment. But like I said, we need to play some good offenses before tossing him out. I'm still against franchise tagging him though. 17.76 million gtd is waaaaaay too much for anyone that's not a top 5 QB. If they can't get a decent deal done before free agency starts, then I think we need to let him walk.

Offense can scheme around Andre not being there just like defense can bring more people on blitzes to scheme around Mario not being there.

Either way, neither unit has really fallen off and that was my point. What does it matter how they pick up the slack as long as the slack is picked up?

Fico
11-08-2011, 02:58 PM
This is what Fico said and I was responding to:

What he will command on the market as a free agent will dictate that. This organization would be foolish not resign Mario.
Pay Mario.
Release and restructure whomever you need to make this work.

I would not let the market set the terms. First of all, there are 32 teams and some of them aren't too bright. Some of those teams will have to spend money to reach the cap minimum number. Furthermore, some of those run a 4-3 defense and need a strong 4-3 DE to play opposite their pure, weak side speed rusher. Those teams will inflate the market for Mario.

Dale you make the argument that Mario doesn't deserve to paid as a top tier player at his position. I stated what he will command on the open market if allowed to test it, will prove your argument wrong.

The market sets the terms whether you like it or not in free agency. We either offer him a deal he feels happy with or he test the market. He will then either get more money from someone else, more money from us, or have to settle our original offer.

There is no inflating of value, he is worth what he is worth. Maybe not to you, but to somebody else.

AJ actually is a great player and a difference-maker. His presence changes everything on our offense. Mario simply isn't the player you think he is. Antonio Smith is a probowl caliber player. He is an elite DT or DE in a 3-4.

When you say things like this they make you look even less credible. Mario most definitely does alter offensive game planning by his presence. Teams constantly scheme for him and around him. He is/was the only player on our defense that commanded scheme attention of that nature. Thus when he was effectively taken out of the game due to opposing scheme our defense used to suck.

With an influx of talent, scheme, and most importantly confidence our defense is playing very good team defense. Combine that very good team defense with the most elite player on your defense, and you get a monster.

A.Smith is a very nice pass rushing option out of the 3-4, but he gets pushed around in the run game. In a 4-3 he was solid against the run at end, but not great rushing the passer. Consequently we pushed him inside on passing downs where he could outclass less athletic guards with his speed. He is a good versatile player for us. He is not a Pro-Bowl player nor is he elite, and I consider those two different things.

Do I think Mario is going get $100 million Albert Haynsworth dollars? No I don't, but I think he will get and deserve a contract in Demarcus Ware Peppers range. $80-90 million/ 7 years.

The reason he wasn't extended this year is because the coaches, GM, and owner wanted to see how he would take to the new system. I would say 5 sacks in 5 games with many more pressures and forcing turnovers, would prove that he was adapting rather nicely. The thing is he was only going to get better the more comfortable he got playing OLB in the system.

thunderkyss
11-08-2011, 03:05 PM
In any case, it seems the pass rush is doing just fine without Mario so far. It's not like our secondary all of a sudden stepped up and is covering up our pass-rushing deficiencies. I really don't see a huge drop-off since losing Mario yet, or at least not one that warrants a 13+ million/yr investment. But like I said, we need to play some good offenses before tossing him out.

The pass rush looked good Sunday, I won't deny that. The front five were doing most of the work, which is good to see.

How many sacks did Cushing have when Mario was in the game?

He's having to step up because Mario is out. He's more involved in the pass rush than he was before. We're also getting a lot of work from the safeties..... the ILBs & the Safeties are part of the pass rush anyway, I'm not saying they weren't but they're a bigger part of it now than they were over the first 4 games.

Getting pressure with the front guys is huge... if they know you're going to have to blitz, they can take advantage of that. Brian Cushing with Mario in the game is just as likely to play 6 yards from the LOS as he is to be in the backfield on any given play. Without Mario, I guarantee you Cushing has played at the LOS a lot more.

Reed & Barwin have to step it up (and it looked like they are well on their way, just like our offense has) if we want to get back to where we were with Mario in the game.

thunderkyss
11-08-2011, 03:11 PM
Offense can scheme around Andre not being there just like defense can bring more people on blitzes to scheme around Mario not being there.

Either way, neither unit has really fallen off and that was my point. What does it matter how they pick up the slack as long as the slack is picked up?

MSR

Some people are just going to see what they want to see.

We're a top ten offense without Andre..... we're a top ten defense without Mario.

We lost games with Andre, we lost games with Mario. We won games without Andre or Mario...

That's just not the way it works.

We're a better team with Andre & Mario, period.

Norg
11-08-2011, 03:33 PM
i would just like to add dont let this D fool u

look at what happend when we went aganist the Saints ......

BullNation4Life
11-08-2011, 03:46 PM
i would just like to add dont let this D fool u

look at what happend when we went aganist the Saints ......

actually you can put the blame on the offense for both the Saints and Ravens games. Going 3 and out and putting the defense back on the field that quickly will kill any team. Just like it killed the Ravens against the Jags...

but hey if your not a believer by now, probably never will be....

dalemurphy
11-08-2011, 03:46 PM
Dale you make the argument that Mario doesn't deserve to paid as a top tier player at his position. I stated what he will command on the open market if allowed to test it, will prove your argument wrong.

The market sets the terms whether you like it or not in free agency. We either offer him a deal he feels happy with or he test the market. He will then either get more money from someone else, more money from us, or have to settle our original offer.

There is no inflating of value, he is worth what he is worth. Maybe not to you, but to somebody else.

I've never argued that Mario doesn't deserve "X" number of dollars. I'm arguing that his demands will exceed what I think he is worth to our team. As I have said, I think he is more valuable as a LDE in a 4-3 Defense. I understand how the free market works. Do you understand that the NFL isn't a true free market due to the capping?

Goatcheese
11-08-2011, 03:50 PM
i would just like to add dont let this D fool u

look at what happend when we went aganist the Saints ......

I seem to remember the defensive collapse @NO starting when Mario went out with a leg injury. He came back but didn't look the same. The whole defense seemed to change after he came out. More off coverage, more blitzing to try to get to Brees, etc.

People really underestimate what a blue chip passrusher brings to a defense.

thunderkyss
11-08-2011, 04:18 PM
I seem to remember the defensive collapse @NO starting when Mario went out with a leg injury. He came back but didn't look the same. The whole defense seemed to change after he came out. More off coverage, more blitzing to try to get to Brees, etc.

People really underestimate what a blue chip passrusher brings to a defense.

I remember this.

But, I also know this is not the same defense that played New Orleans in week 3. I'd love to play them now, with a healthy Foster & a healthy Tate, our defense would tear them up.

HJam72
11-09-2011, 10:58 AM
Nothing against Mario, but all I have to say at this point is: SALARY CAP.

I believe we could better spend that money on another shut-down corner and that it's true that Mario's worth is more in the position of 4-3 DE.

Yes, we lose something of our pass-rush without Mario; we also gain something in unpredictability and pass coverage. Scary to let a player of his caliber go? Yeah, it is; but it's looking like a legitimate choice.

I'd also like to know what percentage of his career Mario has played at 100 or near 100 percent, because playing at 50% 50% of the time doesn't cut it when he's getting paid to DOMINATE.

badboy
11-09-2011, 11:46 AM
Nothing against Mario, but all I have to say at this point is: SALARY CAP.

I believe we could better spend that money on another shut-down corner and that it's true that Mario's worth is more in the position of 4-3 DE.

Yes, we lose something of our pass-rush without Mario; we also gain something in unpredictability and pass coverage. Scary to let a player of his caliber go? Yeah, it is; but it's looking like a legitimate choice.

I'd also like to know what percentage of his career Mario has played at 100 or near 100 percent, because playing at 50% 50% of the time doesn't cut it when he's getting paid to DOMINATE.There are no free agent shut down corners next off season.

Ole Miss Texan
11-09-2011, 11:47 AM
Nothing against Mario, but all I have to say at this point is: SALARY CAP.

I believe we could better spend that money on another shut-down corner and that it's true that Mario's worth is more in the position of 4-3 DE.

Yes, we lose something of our pass-rush without Mario; we also gain something in unpredictability and pass coverage. Scary to let a player of his caliber go? Yeah, it is; but it's looking like a legitimate choice.

I'd also like to know what percentage of his career Mario has played at 100 or near 100 percent, because playing at 50% 50% of the time doesn't cut it when he's getting paid to DOMINATE.

Solid post. I would also like to point out that in many pass rushing situations this season Mario was playing as a 4-3 DE anyways. We show multiple fronts and Wade said that in pass rushing downs we likely will switch to a 4 man front anyways. Wade was putting Mario (and all our other players) in the best positions to succeed.

HJam72
11-09-2011, 12:08 PM
There are no free agent shut down corners next off season.

Doesn't have to be a corner, but I would have liked that.

beerlover
11-09-2011, 12:15 PM
Squarely rests with Rick Smith & Greg Olsen's ability to negotiate with Mario Williams agent within salary cap parameters. I know for a fact Wade Phillips wants him back as does Kubiak not to mention McNair. If there is some type of trade it would because there is a total breakdown between the two sides, which I just can't see happening. Therefore, Mario Williams will remain a Texan, hopefully for life :texan:

gafftop
11-11-2011, 08:22 AM
Sorry just can't let the previous reply be the end of this thread. Started this thread because I thought what we could get for Mario would be more beneficial than keeping Mario. I still feel this way. One of the main reasons was Mario's inability to stay healthy. I don't think that has changed. All I can do is dream about what this team would be like if instead of Mario we had a real 1b receiver and another quality NFL CB. With these two additions this team would really be a contender for the SB. I have hope that the FO may not be so Mario "crazy" because they did nothing with Mario's contract. I am worried that McNair may still be pro Mario. Only time will tell.

thunderkyss
11-11-2011, 08:56 AM
Sorry just can't let the previous reply be the end of this thread. Started this thread because I thought what we could get for Mario would be more beneficial than keeping Mario. I still feel this way. One of the main reasons was Mario's inability to stay healthy. I don't think that has changed. All I can do is dream about what this team would be like if instead of Mario we had a real 1b receiver and another quality NFL CB. With these two additions this team would really be a contender for the SB. I have hope that the FO may not be so Mario "crazy" because they did nothing with Mario's contract. I am worried that McNair may still be pro Mario. Only time will tell.

Sorry, just can't let the previous reply be the end of this thread. We've had Mario here for 6 years & have yet to put a real 1B receiver or a second quality CB on the field (actually, I believe Kj will be that corner).

So it's not really fair to make it sound as if Mario is preventing us from doing so. I'd rather cut Kevin Walter to make room for a 1b receiver, makes more sense to me.

1b receiver + #2 CB + Mario is better than 1b receiver + #2 CB + Kevin Walter.

badboy
11-11-2011, 09:42 AM
Sorry, just can't let the previous reply be the end of this thread. We've had Mario here for 6 years & have yet to put a real 1B receiver or a second quality CB on the field (actually, I believe Kj will be that corner).

So it's not really fair to make it sound as if Mario is preventing us from doing so. I'd rather cut Kevin Walter to make room for a 1b receiver, makes more sense to me.

1b receiver + #2 CB + Mario is better than 1b receiver + #2 CB + Kevin Walter.TK, I think you are still not looking at this the way Gafftop is presenting it. Let's say we could get NE's 1st and 2nd @ apprx # 24. We could arguably draft Courtney Upshaw OLB #24 and Hightower ILB @ # 26 (Texans). Then in 2nd we select #56 Zeitler RG and @ #58 a WR (several to choose from). Then as we did last draft we trade 3rd & 5th round back into 2nd and draft Haywood CB who if unable to beat out KJ or Harris at least allows you to cut end of bench corner. Plus you then have Mario's $15million cap space to get 2-3 vet free agents. Some of us think that would be better than Mario.

thunderkyss
11-11-2011, 11:47 AM
TK, I think you are still not looking at this the way Gafftop is presenting it. Let's say we could get NE's 1st and 2nd @ apprx # 24. We could arguably draft Courtney Upshaw OLB #24 and Hightower ILB @ # 26 (Texans). Then in 2nd we select #56 Zeitler RG and @ #58 a WR (several to choose from). Then as we did last draft we trade 3rd & 5th round back into 2nd and draft Haywood CB who if unable to beat out KJ or Harris at least allows you to cut end of bench corner. Plus you then have Mario's $15million cap space to get 2-3 vet free agents. Some of us think that would be better than Mario.

Why not Trade Andre & do the same thing?

I'd like to see our pass rush against a competent offense before we start making plans to trade the only "elite" player we have on the front 5. At least wait till Brooks & JJ can prove they are elite.

ObsiWan
11-11-2011, 01:05 PM
Why not Trade Andre & do the same thing?



Yeah... we could follow the Astros wonderful model and trade any and everything worth any value anytime they have an off year.

hell, why wait all year; trade 'em as soon as they have an off game.

it should work for us as well as that thinking has worked for the Astros over the years, right?


I'm not mad at you TK, it's this mentality that all these possible picks and F/As we'll pick up via these proposed trades will yield better players (or even close to equivalent - and no one can know that they will) than what we already have. That's no where near a given.

ObsiWan
11-11-2011, 01:15 PM
TK, I think you are still not looking at this the way Gafftop is presenting it. Let's say we could get NE's 1st and 2nd @ apprx # 24. We could arguably draft Courtney Upshaw OLB #24 and Hightower ILB @ # 26 (Texans). Then in 2nd we select #56 Zeitler RG and @ #58 a WR (several to choose from). Then as we did last draft we trade 3rd & 5th round back into 2nd and draft Haywood CB who if unable to beat out KJ or Harris at least allows you to cut end of bench corner. Plus you then have Mario's $15million cap space to get 2-3 vet free agents. Some of us think that would be better than Mario.

Why would NE make this trade?? They need to bolster their O-line, rebuild the back end of their defense (they're dead last against the pass) AND look for a decent RB. Why would Belichick give up two quality picks for what you guys are implying is damaged goods??

badboy
11-11-2011, 01:19 PM
Why not Trade Andre & do the same thing?

I'd like to see our pass rush against a competent offense before we start making plans to trade the only "elite" player we have on the front 5. At least wait till Brooks & JJ can prove they are elite.Fundalmental difference on how we see Mario, AJ is known prior to his injury as being one of two best WRs in football for years. Mario imo is a very good defensive end and could be an even better OLB.

Now if JJ was looking extremely good (Barwin) and our WR rookie was matching AJ's yardage (Reed), I could possibly consider a trade for AJ. Mario would bring you maybe a late 1&2.

Andre Johnson would bring you both of Clevelands first this draft and maybe more. If my scenario in the above paragraph were true and it is not, then I might make that deal. Now you or someone else will say I want to trade AJ but that is not what this posts says.

As the 2012 draft is not until April you will probably get to see this defense against a competent offense. No trade until draft day.

badboy
11-11-2011, 01:27 PM
Why would NE make this trade?? They need to bolster their O-line, rebuild the back end of their defense (they're dead last against the pass) AND look for a decent RB. Why would Belichick give up two quality picks for what you guys are implying is damaged goods??Mario is damaged goods now not draft day 2012.

NE desperately needs defensive help and they are still scoring pretty well. Priority needs are DE, CB and safety. Rashad I-Dowling went to IR.

PATs would keep their highest first and seconds as they have two in each round. They get Mario Williams for DE and draft CB STephon Gilmore in first. In second they select Melvin Ingram DE/OLB. As did the Texans, they can trade a 3rd & 5th to move back into second round and select Markelle Martin or another safety. Or they could select OG Nate Potter in 3rd.

ObsiWan
11-11-2011, 01:31 PM
You... you would actually trade A.J. to CLEVELAND!?! He was here during the ugly years... hasn't he suffered enough??

You heartless MONSTER!!!!
:strangle:

gafftop
11-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Why would NE make this trade?? They need to bolster their O-line, rebuild the back end of their defense (they're dead last against the pass) AND look for a decent RB. Why would Belichick give up two quality picks for what you guys are implying is damaged goods??

I think you make a point here. I don't see Belicheck doing this. He is way to smart. I just hope someone out there will.

badboy
11-11-2011, 03:30 PM
You... you would actually trade A.J. to CLEVELAND!?! He was here during the ugly years... hasn't he suffered enough??

You heartless MONSTER!!!!
:strangle:Should have seen the flack I got about 4 years ago when I suggested trading AJ to get him to a winning team. If we had a rookie WR matching AJ's production and another doing very well? You betcha! What would you do with say #13, #25 & #27 (Texans)? You would not need to draft WR2 so that takes care of that current need.

I'd have me some LSU's Morris Claiborne CB, Hightower for my ILB backup and Melvin Ingram OLB/DE. I'd pick Kevin Zeitler OG in 2nd and in 3rd Kendall Wright KR/WR.
:turtle:

badboy
11-11-2011, 03:32 PM
I think you make a point here. I don't see Belicheck doing this. He is way to smart. I just hope someone out there will.How long has it been since smarty pants was in Super Bowl? Better do something soon....

gary
11-11-2011, 03:37 PM
No trading AJ he will be the first Texans HOF.

NBT
11-11-2011, 03:46 PM
Opinions are like noses, we all have one. BUT, at this time of the year, I would worry more about us just making the playoffs, and how far we will get in them. All this talk about getting rid of our best players should be reserved until after our season is over, when and IF!

thunderkyss
11-11-2011, 03:59 PM
Fundalmental difference on how we see Mario

That pretty much sums it up.

AJ is known prior to his injury as being one of two best WRs in football for years. Mario imo is a very good defensive end and could be an even better OLB.

You're expecting at least one first round pick. You know Mario is well respected outside of Houston.

I understand you don't see Mario the same way many of us do. But put it in perspective of something you do value, Aj. Would you do those trades if Aj were involved.

& it gets down to a bird in the hand.

Rey
11-11-2011, 07:45 PM
Mario is damaged goods now not draft day 2012.

NE desperately needs defensive help and they are still scoring pretty well. Priority needs are DE, CB and safety. Rashad I-Dowling went to IR.

PATs would keep their highest first and seconds as they have two in each round. They get Mario Williams for DE and draft CB STephon Gilmore in first. In second they select Melvin Ingram DE/OLB. As did the Texans, they can trade a 3rd & 5th to move back into second round and select Markelle Martin or another safety. Or they could select OG Nate Potter in 3rd.

Bb, I know you are a draft/off season guy but I don't believe it is smart to trade pro bowl caliber edge rushers for low first round draft picks unless that player has made it known he is unhappy or would welcome a trade.

Lots of first round picks go on to be ok or flat out bust. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and that applies directly to trading Mario.

I seriously don't think that is going to happen.

ObsiWan
11-11-2011, 08:41 PM
Should have seen the flack I got about 4 years ago when I suggested trading AJ to get him to a winning team. If we had a rookie WR matching AJ's production and another doing very well? You betcha! What would you do with say #13, #25 & #27 (Texans)? You would not need to draft WR2 so that takes care of that current need.

I'd have me some LSU's Morris Claiborne CB, Hightower for my ILB backup and Melvin Ingram OLB/DE. I'd pick Kevin Zeitler OG in 2nd and in 3rd Kendall Wright KR/WR.
:turtle:

First, that's two miiighty big IFs you got there. We certainly don't have two young and blossoming WRs at the moment. And to trade A.J. hoping we do is a little risky IMHO.

Secondly, what's keeping us (besides our oft-lamented past history) from grabbing the best WR on the board in round 2 or 3.

Third, some of the mocks I've glanced at - and I admit I'm far from a draftnik - have Claiborne gone in the top 10 or 11 picks. That means you'd have to pkg the picks you got for A.J. to move up to grab him. So now you've traded an acknowledged stud WR (not to mention him being the face of our franchise forever) for a rookie "maybe"; that doesn't seem wise to me.

As for what I'd do with those picks...? I'd do the Belichick thing and parley them into more picks. Even if I can't do that, my first order of biz is to upgrade the NT spot unless a stud WR like Floyd or ILB Upshaw falls in my lap. Cody is okay, but just "okay". I'd like to have better. Next, I'm taking the BPA with an eye for DeMeco's replacement ....just in case CnnnD is right and he never gets physically back to what he was coming out of Alabama.

Like I said, I'm not a draftnik but that's how I'm thinking right now...

steelbtexan
11-11-2011, 09:33 PM
That pretty much sums it up.

{Quote:} The value of MW this yr = how much on a 1-10 scale? Last yr?

You're expecting at least one first round pick. You know Mario is well respected outside of Houston.

I understand you don't see Mario the same way many of us do. But put it in perspective of something you do value, Aj. Would you do those trades if Aj were involved.

& it gets down to a bird in the hand.

AJ > MW, but if C-N-D's right I would trade AJ too. AJ= Damaged goods. IMHO

Do you think it's a coincedence that MW,AJ have been out for an extended period of time and the team has gone on a winning streak? Or have they truly become a team that is greater than their sum of parts?

Does the schedule have more to do with the streak, than anything BoBBY/Rick/Gary have done?

Just asing, it is probably a little bit of both?

steelbtexan
11-11-2011, 09:43 PM
Bb, I know you are a draft/off season guy but I don't believe it is smart to trade pro bowl caliber edge rushers for low first round draft picks unless that player has made it known he is unhappy or would welcome a trade.

Lots of first round picks go on to be ok or flat out bust. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and that applies directly to trading Mario.

I seriously don't think that is going to happen.

This is true.

But tell me more about what proven players could be picked up in FA with the 15-20 mil that you would save by trading MW. In addition to the draft picks you would get in said trade? Surely you could get anothr great player in FA with all of that cap space in addition to the draft picks?

Scooter
11-11-2011, 11:38 PM
i was one of the early proponents of trading mario because i thought we were flawed by trying to make him an OLB instead of a defensive end. i assumed he would bust and be nothing more than a big name at a popular position, with no real impact because we didnt utilize his strength (literally). i'm changing my position in regards to mario. no, i wouldnt trade mario unless we cant afford to resign him. if he'll break the bank however, we absolutely have to find a way to get something in return for him.

his individual impact was above average. his total impact however was felt across the line and that's something we're extremely unlikely to find again. mario did what i thought he couldnt - he scared offensive coordinators and still beat their shifts towards him (and he DID see more attention than anyone else in the front 7). barwin and reed have done their jobs very well, but they dont have the ability to influence offenses like mario, nor is it likely an early round pick would. mario keeps tightends and halfbacks in to block instead of going into routes. he's able to stunt with watt to draw 3 or 4 or 5 blockers, freeing up smith and barwin ... or make a similar mess on the opposite side.

mario and foster are both coming up on their paydays, and if i'm the texans i make sure they both receive them.

ObsiWan
11-12-2011, 12:14 AM
This is true.

But tell me more about what proven players could be picked up in FA with the 15-20 mil that you would save by trading MW. In addition to the draft picks you would get in said trade? Surely you could get anothr great player in FA with all of that cap space in addition to the draft picks?

Well let's just see who'll be out there equal at those two positions shall we...
The names come from Football's Future's list of 2012 F/As

WR
Reggie Wayne, IND - he's 33 and a product of Manning's skills. Not interested
Wes Welker, NE - Good luck prying him away from Brady
Dwayne Bowe, KC - He's 50% of their offense - KC will pay this man
Vincent Jackson, SD - maybe. But he'll want a big payday. There goes your cap savings.
DeSean Jackson, PHI - Only if Andy Reid is really stupid does he leave Philly. And again, there goes all your cap savings
Marques Colston, NO - He's been on the injury list as much, if not more, than AJ. And he's not an upgrade, IMHO
Stevie Johnson, BUF - He's one of the Bills' emerging stars and Buffalo has plenty of cap room with which to pay him. Unlikely that he goes anywhere
Brandon Lloyd, STL - We should already have him :/ but that's a different discussion. He's 29 and realizes this is his last shot at a big payday. There go your cap savings.
Robert Meachem, NO - Another "maybe". Not sure if N.O. will open the bank for both Colston AND Meachem. This maybe be doable. But he's no A.J. and you did say, "surely you can get another GREAT PLAYER..."
Mario Manningham, NYG - See Meachem. The Giants may let him walk, but he's good, not great.

LB (FF did not separate the OLBs from the ILBs so there's a mix)
Curtis Lofton, ATL

Anthony Spencer (DAL) - Spencer hasn't emerged as he was poised to do two seasons ago, but is about as good a left outside linebacker as the league has to offer. He's a strong run defender and capable of putting some pressure on the quarterback. Though he benefits from playing opposite the league's best outside linebacker, Spencer should have a small niche market pursuing his services this offseason.

Stephen Tulloch (DET) - Tulloch left the Titans to sign a one-year deal with the Lions. Given their hot streak and the energy given off by their defense, it seems more than reasonable that Tulloch will want to remain in Detroit. Considering the linebacking unit is a weakness for the team, it seems reasonable that the Lions will also want him back.
Dan Connor (CAR) - Early in the year, Connor got lost in the depth of the Panthers elite linebacking corps. However, with injury taking its toll on the unit, he's been thrust back into the starting lineup where he's played solid football. The Panthers obviously can't commit a large sum to Connor as a 4th linebacker, but depending on whether Thomas Davis decides to make another run at playing, they may have enough to keep him around. Regardless, Connor shouldn't come at nearly the price tag of the other three.
London Fletcher (WAS) - Even at 36 years old, Fletcher is still playing strong football in the middle of the Redskins' revitalized defense. Unless his play falls off, he'll have a spot on Washington's roster available next season if he wants to be back.E.J. Henderson (MIN) - Henderson had become one of the most underrated backers in the league over the duration of his last contract. Now on the wrong side of 30 with Chad Greenway breaking bank last offseason, the Vikings and Henderson will look to work out a deal that keeps a core piece of the defense in Minnesota.

None of these guys are a suitable Mario replacement unit - not even a gimpy Mario. None of them. So much for "another great player".

ObsiWan
11-12-2011, 12:29 AM
AJ > MW, but if C-N-D's right I would trade AJ too. AJ= Damaged goods. IMHO

Do you think it's a coincedence that MW,AJ have been out for an extended period of time and the team has gone on a winning streak? Or have they truly become a team that is greater than their sum of parts?

Does the schedule have more to do with the streak, than anything BoBBY/Rick/Gary have done?

Just asking, it is probably a little bit of both?

I truly don't get this question. If Bobby/Rick/Gary hadn't done the right things this off-season, and during the course of these games, there would be no winning streak. Besides, I thought we were talking trade scenarios, not Bobby, Rick, and Gary. I doubt we go the rest of the year undefeated so you Soapers will have your chances to resume your regularly scheduled Kubiak bashing.

Rey
11-12-2011, 01:46 AM
This is true.

But tell me more about what proven players could be picked up in FA with the 15-20 mil that you would save by trading MW. In addition to the draft picks you would get in said trade? Surely you could get anothr great player in FA with all of that cap space in addition to the draft picks?

If you're going to use that money on a big free agent why not just use that money for Mario?

We don't even know what he'll command market wise. We don't know what will happen with the cap. All these same people were worried we wouldn't have money to spend this off season.

There are a lot of unknowns and IMHO this is like fairytale talk. No offense to anyone, but I don't see this happening at all. I could be wrong, but my better judgement days I'm not.

Mario will sign a lucrative but reasonable deal.

Other players will re structure, we won't add any high priced fa's and will focus on our needs in the draft. We can afford to do that now.

The season will start, we will win the superbowl. The end.

:)

thunderkyss
11-12-2011, 03:19 AM
If we had a rookie WR matching AJ's production and another doing very well? You betcha!

& this is another difference between you & the guys against trading Mario. You've obviously seen enough to make you believe that Brooks is as productive as Mario & Barwin is doing pretty well?

vs the Brown, the front 5 looked pretty good, but I'm not ready to say they are just as good as Mario.

ObsiWan
11-12-2011, 07:45 AM
If you're going to use that money on a big free agent why not just use that money for Mario?

We don't even know what he'll command market wise. We don't know what will happen with the cap. All these same people were worried we wouldn't have money to spend this off season.

There are a lot of unknowns and IMHO this is like fairytale talk. No offense to anyone, but I don't see this happening at all. I could be wrong, but my better judgement days I'm not.

Mario will sign a lucrative but reasonable deal.

Other players will re structure, we won't add any high priced fa's and will focus on our needs in the draft. We can afford to do that now.

The season will start, we will win the superbowl. The end.

:)

You summed this situ up much more concisely than I did. Like you, I just think that there are waaay too many "what IFs" (like what if we have two emerging WRs....) and too many just plain "IFs" (like IF we trade Mario or AJ we'll have cap room to sign another great player) to make a move to gain another draft pick, maybe two.

We need to concentrate on paying the guys already on our roster that we want to keep. According to KFFL (http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=By+Team&y=2012), here are the Texans that will be F/As this off-season:

RB - Arian Foster
RB - Derrick Ward
WR - Bryant Johnson
TE - Joel Dreessen
K - Neil Rackers
DL - Damione Lewis (who is this??)
OLB- Mario Williams

I'd love to be able to re-sign all of them except for Johnson and Lewis (whoever he is). Whether we have cap room to do so remains to be seen.

dalemurphy
11-12-2011, 08:14 AM
& this is another difference between you & the guys against trading Mario. You've obviously seen enough to make you believe that Brooks is as productive as Mario & Barwin is doing pretty well?

vs the Brown, the front 5 looked pretty good, but I'm not ready to say they are just as good as Mario.

Here are my issues with re-signing Mario in a nutshell:

1. Consistent injury issues.
2. His best position is LDE in a 4-3. If we outbid those teams, aren't we overpaying him?
3. We are right up against the cap right now without a lot of relief coming.
4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.

thunderkyss
11-12-2011, 09:37 AM
Here are my issues with re-signing Mario in a nutshell:

1. Consistent injury issues.

Most players, even highly paid 4-3 DEs have consistent injury issues.... look at Freeney, Mathis, Allen, Van den Bosch... Mario, unlike those guys, have been able to play & be productive throughout his issues. He's missed 3 games since 2006. You're making way to big a deal of this.

2. His best position is LDE in a 4-3. If we outbid those teams, aren't we overpaying him?

How do you know this? He's yet to play a full season at OLB, but he's looked pretty good doing it after 4 weeks.

Another thing, the better these guys get on first downs, the sooner Mario will drop to DE, he'll play either Right side or left.

We know Mario is a productive DE..... he looks good standing up @OLB rush LB.... he appears to be that hybrid player Wade said he was looking for.


3. We are right up against the cap right now without a lot of relief coming.

Sign him to a long term deal. Most players could care less about their "cap hit" They are primarily concerned with "guaranteed money" & terms of service.

We pay the GM a **** load of money. I have no problem asking him to do something every now & then. If he can't come up with a deal to keep Mario on this team, that's on him.

4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.

I think he loves it more than you or I do. Remember those injuries he worked through?

badboy
11-12-2011, 06:03 PM
Opinions are like noses, we all have one. BUT, at this time of the year, I would worry more about us just making the playoffs, and how far we will get in them. All this talk about getting rid of our best players should be reserved until after our season is over, when and IF!Why? You post here what you want and you should allow others to do same.

badboy
11-12-2011, 06:14 PM
That pretty much sums it up.

You're expecting at least one first round pick. You know Mario is well respected outside of Houston.

I understand you don't see Mario the same way many of us do. But put it in perspective of something you do value, Aj. Would you do those trades if Aj were involved.

& it gets down to a bird in the hand.Zenyatta won 19 races in a row and was pretty good race horse. I would not compare her to Secretariat. As this roster stands, I would not trade AJ under any reasonable offers. Like Gary said, AJ will be our first HOF.

I do not see any NFL GM offering a higher first for Mario than NE and only because they have another. Charlie Pallilo and I went around on this prior to CBA re-newal. He thought NE might give two seconds.

Again so new readers who don't know my history on Mario Williams, I like the guy and do expect Smith to re-sign him to lengthy deal.

badboy
11-12-2011, 06:26 PM
Bb, I know you are a draft/off season guy but I don't believe it is smart to trade pro bowl caliber edge rushers for low first round draft picks unless that player has made it known he is unhappy or would welcome a trade.

Lots of first round picks go on to be ok or flat out bust. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and that applies directly to trading Mario.

I seriously don't think that is going to happen.I agree with the bolded. Remember, I am not talking about trading Mario if Barwin and Reed don't keep up their current pace. Williams avg'd 1 sack per game so has Reed. Not saying he is as good as Mario but could be soon. It is also not about the two high round picks I want only but we'd also have Mario's $15 million cap hit to play with. Wonder if we could sign a free agent Nose tackle, WR2 and a CB2 with that? You seem pretty happy with Joseph and Manning?

thunderkyss
11-12-2011, 06:37 PM
I agree with the bolded. Remember, I am not talking about trading Mario if Barwin and Reed don't keep up their current pace.

I would agree..... Mario should probably go on the block if both Barwin & Reed appear to be starters by the end of the season.

If not, I wouldn't want to put Reed, or Barwin in the situation Mario has been in until now..... desperately seeking help on the other side (like CMIII is right now). We've finally got what appears to be help for Mario, now he can finally dominate like we thought he would & he suffers an injury that keeps him out of the last 12 games of the season.

badboy
11-12-2011, 06:53 PM
First, that's two miiighty big IFs you got there. We certainly don't have two young and blossoming WRs at the moment. And to trade A.J. hoping we do is a little risky IMHO.

Secondly, what's keeping us (besides our oft-lamented past history) from grabbing the best WR on the board in round 2 or 3.

Third, some of the mocks I've glanced at - and I admit I'm far from a draftnik - have Claiborne gone in the top 10 or 11 picks. That means you'd have to pkg the picks you got for A.J. to move up to grab him. So now you've traded an acknowledged stud WR (not to mention him being the face of our franchise forever) for a rookie "maybe"; that doesn't seem wise to me.

As for what I'd do with those picks...? I'd do the Belichick thing and parley them into more picks. Even if I can't do that, my first order of biz is to upgrade the NT spot unless a stud WR like Floyd or ILB Upshaw falls in my lap. Cody is okay, but just "okay". I'd like to have better. Next, I'm taking the BPA with an eye for DeMeco's replacement ....just in case CnnnD is right and he never gets physically back to what he was coming out of Alabama.

Like I said, I'm not a draftnik but that's how I'm thinking right now...

Not sure if you are reading only my posts but the ones I am responding to also? I was asked if I would trade AJ as I would Mario and I think it was said sarcastically as if the two were same calibre. They are not. I neve4r said I'd trade AJ hoping to develop 2 WRs. I compared AJ & Mario in a trade situation as before I would consider trading AJ I would have to have our #2 WR and I put in ( ) Barwin to compare how Conner is doing AND then said a rookie WR if we had one would have to match AJ's stats as Reed is matching Mario's. Go back and read that post.

Your point #2, go to the mock section and read my mid-season mock that I did with Beerlover & RMartin65 & you will find us selecting WR Kendall Wright second round.

Your point #3, in my post you are refering to I used the theoretic #13 pick for the best CB in draft imo. Even you acknowledge that you have seen mocks selecting Claiborne 10-11 and mockers know that in the actual draft players often slip 2-3 places so it is not impossible. You might want to look at a QB named Aaron Rogers who all thought would go top 1/3 of first round. He slid to #32. Again, my theoretical trade of AJ is with a WR matching his stats.

Point 4, I agree Belly will trade down again but how is that working out for him? This year he did some silly pick up with Hainsworth to resolve the defensive line anemia. Fat Albert was cut this week. Fans have been turning on the "smart one" for two years. He better wake up and do something.
I agree on on improving NT but with what? Ta'Amu (my guy) since returning from his hand injury is being pushed around at 335lbs. Do you want that? I really like Dontar'i Poe of Memphis who is extremely strong but has Wade ever drafted or signed (FA) a big boy for Nose? Josh Chapman? Walterfootball.com recent dropped this guy from Texans first round to Texans second round.

WR Floyd has been arrested for alcohol issues three times. If you know Mr. McNair's history those type players do not get drafted by Texans. You have evaluated Floyd's skills correctly as he is a stud.

I too want Upshaw if available whether Mario is a Texan or not as he could be better than Reed. On my most recent mock I selected Hightower ILB for the reason's CND mentioned. Actually, I posted the mock before I read CND's info but still is the right move.

Thanks for your comments. Enjoy the debate.

badboy
11-12-2011, 07:17 PM
i was one of the early proponents of trading mario because i thought we were flawed by trying to make him an OLB instead of a defensive end. i assumed he would bust and be nothing more than a big name at a popular position, with no real impact because we didnt utilize his strength (literally). i'm changing my position in regards to mario. no, i wouldnt trade mario unless we cant afford to resign him. if he'll break the bank however, we absolutely have to find a way to get something in return for him.

his individual impact was above average. his total impact however was felt across the line and that's something we're extremely unlikely to find again. mario did what i thought he couldnt - he scared offensive coordinators and still beat their shifts towards him (and he DID see more attention than anyone else in the front 7). barwin and reed have done their jobs very well, but they dont have the ability to influence offenses like mario, nor is it likely an early round pick would. mario keeps tightends and halfbacks in to block instead of going into routes. he's able to stunt with watt to draw 3 or 4 or 5 blockers, freeing up smith and barwin ... or make a similar mess on the opposite side.

mario and foster are both coming up on their paydays, and if i'm the texans i make sure they both receive them.If Reed keeps getting one sack per game he might "scare" OCs.

A starting CB2, a starting WR2 and a starting Nose Tackle in free agency (Mario's $15m), ILB Hightower(NE) who would start if CND is right about Demeco Ryans possibly deteriorating after this season and OG Zeitler (Wisconsin) (NE) who would possibly beat out Briesel as a starter versus Mario? What you talking about Willis?

badboy
11-12-2011, 07:32 PM
Well let's just see who'll be out there equal at those two positions shall we...
The names come from Football's Future's list of 2012 F/As

WR
Reggie Wayne, IND - he's 33 and a product of Manning's skills. Not interested
Wes Welker, NE - Good luck prying him away from Brady
Dwayne Bowe, KC - He's 50% of their offense - KC will pay this man
Vincent Jackson, SD - maybe. But he'll want a big payday. There goes your cap savings.
DeSean Jackson, PHI - Only if Andy Reid is really stupid does he leave Philly. And again, there goes all your cap savings
Marques Colston, NO - He's been on the injury list as much, if not more, than AJ. And he's not an upgrade, IMHO
Stevie Johnson, BUF - He's one of the Bills' emerging stars and Buffalo has plenty of cap room with which to pay him. Unlikely that he goes anywhere
Brandon Lloyd, STL - We should already have him :/ but that's a different discussion. He's 29 and realizes this is his last shot at a big payday. There go your cap savings.
Robert Meachem, NO - Another "maybe". Not sure if N.O. will open the bank for both Colston AND Meachem. This maybe be doable. But he's no A.J. and you did say, "surely you can get another GREAT PLAYER..."
Mario Manningham, NYG - See Meachem. The Giants may let him walk, but he's good, not great.

LB (FF did not separate the OLBs from the ILBs so there's a mix)
Curtis Lofton, ATL

Anthony Spencer (DAL) - Spencer hasn't emerged as he was poised to do two seasons ago, but is about as good a left outside linebacker as the league has to offer. He's a strong run defender and capable of putting some pressure on the quarterback. Though he benefits from playing opposite the league's best outside linebacker, Spencer should have a small niche market pursuing his services this offseason.

Stephen Tulloch (DET) - Tulloch left the Titans to sign a one-year deal with the Lions. Given their hot streak and the energy given off by their defense, it seems more than reasonable that Tulloch will want to remain in Detroit. Considering the linebacking unit is a weakness for the team, it seems reasonable that the Lions will also want him back.
Dan Connor (CAR) - Early in the year, Connor got lost in the depth of the Panthers elite linebacking corps. However, with injury taking its toll on the unit, he's been thrust back into the starting lineup where he's played solid football. The Panthers obviously can't commit a large sum to Connor as a 4th linebacker, but depending on whether Thomas Davis decides to make another run at playing, they may have enough to keep him around. Regardless, Connor shouldn't come at nearly the price tag of the other three.
London Fletcher (WAS) - Even at 36 years old, Fletcher is still playing strong football in the middle of the Redskins' revitalized defense. Unless his play falls off, he'll have a spot on Washington's roster available next season if he wants to be back.E.J. Henderson (MIN) - Henderson had become one of the most underrated backers in the league over the duration of his last contract. Now on the wrong side of 30 with Chad Greenway breaking bank last offseason, the Vikings and Henderson will look to work out a deal that keeps a core piece of the defense in Minnesota.

None of these guys are a suitable Mario replacement unit - not even a gimpy Mario. None of them. So much for "another great player".Sorry to keep correcting you but Brandon LLoyd is 30 not 29 and his salary is $1.395m and he would grab $5m in first year and that is 1/3 of Mario's cap hit.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/449/brandon-lloyd
Same with Meachem @ $1.2m http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/robert-meachem/

You would already have Mario's replacement on the team if Williams was traded; Reed is avg 1 sack per game. Barwin is playing extremely well.

badboy
11-12-2011, 07:44 PM
& this is another difference between you & the guys against trading Mario. You've obviously seen enough to make you believe that Brooks is as productive as Mario & Barwin is doing pretty well?

vs the Brown, the front 5 looked pretty good, but I'm not ready to say they are just as good as Mario.dadgum it TK, I know you are not dense, my friend. This thread is predicated on trading Mario in the OFF SEASON and only IF Reed continues his torrid and comparable pace with Mario the rest of this season and does well continuing in the playoffs with that extra pressure. Each week Phillips is adding more to the playbook and the entire defense is better. Reed and Barwin should also improve. Mario bless his body, can't get better on sidelines and I'm not knocking him for being hurt.

badboy
11-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Here are my issues with re-signing Mario in a nutshell:

1. Consistent injury issues.
2. His best position is LDE in a 4-3. If we outbid those teams, aren't we overpaying him?
3. We are right up against the cap right now without a lot of relief coming.
4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.Dale when you say this type of stuff I groan. How in the world could you know that? Unless you can provide link where Mario said he does not love game your looking silly.

dalemurphy
11-12-2011, 08:21 PM
Dale when you say this type of stuff I groan. How in the world could you know that? Unless you can provide link where Mario said he does not love game your looking silly.

You're right. I don't know that with any more certainty than I know:
Brian Cushing and Antonio Smith do love football.

badboy
11-12-2011, 08:24 PM
You're right. I don't know that with any more certainty than I know:
Brian Cushing and Antonio Smith do love football.Well folks, I tried.

thunderkyss
11-12-2011, 09:07 PM
dadgum it TK, I know you are not dense, my friend. This thread is predicated on trading Mario in the OFF SEASON and only IF Reed continues his torrid and comparable pace with Mario the rest of this season and does well continuing in the playoffs with that extra pressure. Each week Phillips is adding more to the playbook and the entire defense is better. Reed and Barwin should also improve. Mario bless his body, can't get better on sidelines and I'm not knocking him for being hurt.

Dadgummit. I still say I want both Reed & Barwin to show much improvement before ditching Mario. We are too reliant on the blots right now & it will hurt us in the play offs & next season when Manning comes back Hasdelbeck gets another year, & Gabbert figures it out. We also may have a truly difficult schedule.

Whether you like it or not, Mario is an elite pass rusher & they don't grow on trees. Two is better than one, & three is better than two.

badboy
11-12-2011, 09:21 PM
Dadgummit. I still say I want both Reed & Barwin to show much improvement before ditching Mario. We are too reliant on the blots right now & it will hurt us in the play offs & next season when Manning comes back Hasdelbeck gets another year, & Gabbert figures it out. We also may have a truly difficult schedule.

Whether you like it or not, Mario is an elite pass rusher & they don't grow on trees. Two is better than one, & three is better than two.Hopefully we have found one in the second round and just might get one in first next draft in Courtney Upshaw. :dancer:

Dutchrudder
11-12-2011, 09:25 PM
Well folks, I tried.

:spit:

That is the correct response.

gafftop
11-12-2011, 09:41 PM
I agree with the bolded. Remember, I am not talking about trading Mario if Barwin and Reed don't keep up their current pace. Williams avg'd 1 sack per game so has Reed. Not saying he is as good as Mario but could be soon. It is also not about the two high round picks I want only but we'd also have Mario's $15 million cap hit to play with. Wonder if we could sign a free agent Nose tackle, WR2 and a CB2 with that? You seem pretty happy with Joseph and Manning?

I agree with the bold above. Point I have been advocating since March. Just think if we had the three players listed above RIGHT NOW.

steelbtexan
11-12-2011, 10:02 PM
I agree with the bold above. Point I have been advocating since March. Just think if we had the three players listed above RIGHT NOW.

You're never going to convince them of this.

They're blinded by MW's potential. Just like fans were at N.C. State. MW's game is all about potential. Potential he's failed to reach in in college or the NFL.

There's always some extenuating circumsnces why MW has failed to reach his potential. But next yr is always the yr he's going to reach it. Didn't BoBBy speak out about MW's lack of production in the Comical last yr?

ObsiWan
11-12-2011, 11:07 PM
Not sure if you are reading only my posts but the ones I am responding to also? I was asked if I would trade AJ as I would Mario and I think it was said sarcastically as if the two were same calibre. They are not. I neve4r said I'd trade AJ hoping to develop 2 WRs. I compared AJ & Mario in a trade situation as before I would consider trading AJ I would have to have our #2 WR and I put in ( ) Barwin to compare how Conner is doing AND then said a rookie WR if we had one would have to match AJ's stats as Reed is matching Mario's. Go back and read that post. I totally missed the sarcasm but I get your context now that I've relooked. So consider the A.J. trade discussion dropped. No Texan fan I've ever heard seriously wants to let him go. Back to Mario the situ.

Your point #2, go to the mock section and read my mid-season mock that I did with Beerlover & RMartin65 & you will find us selecting WR Kendall Wright second round. I'll have to do some studying up on he and the other WRs coming out this year. We've waited long enough to get A.J. some legit help. ...too long.

Your point #3, in my post you are refering to I used the theoretic #13 pick for the best CB in draft imo. Even you acknowledge that you have seen mocks selecting Claiborne 10-11 and mockers know that in the actual draft players often slip 2-3 places so it is not impossible. You might want to look at a QB named Aaron Rogers who all thought would go top 1/3 of first round. He slid to #32. Again, my theoretical trade of AJ is with a WR matching his stats.Like I said, I'm not a draftnik. I only get seriously interested in late March and April. But I've watched the draft enough to know what you say is true. Any resemblance between what happens after the first 4-6 picks and the mockers is largely coincidental. That's why I engage you and the other draftniks so I'll learn something. That's also why I allowed for someone special, like Upshaw or Floyd, to fall into our laps. Not likely but hey, DeMeco was still there in '06 when many talking heads thought he was 1st rd quality.

Point 4, I agree Belly will trade down again but how is that working out for him? This year he did some silly pick up with Hainsworth to resolve the defensive line anemia. Fat Albert was cut this week. Fans have been turning on the "smart one" for two years. He better wake up and do something. I'd trade down because - and I know no one will agree with this - our starting 22 is pretty damned solid (I can see the KJ critiquers groaning) but we need quality backups more than I think we need starters. Why pay first round money for someone we don't expect to start? Unless there's someone Wade really wants or there's a stud WR, trade our 1st rd pick (which should be in the mid 20s) for a 2nd and a 4th.
I agree on on improving NT but with what? Ta'Amu (my guy) since returning from his hand injury is being pushed around at 335lbs. Do you want that? I really like Dontar'i Poe of Memphis who is extremely strong but has Wade ever drafted or signed (FA) a big boy for Nose? Josh Chapman? Walterfootball.com recent dropped this guy from Texans first round to Texans second round.
Not sure who else is out there. I'm sure you know better than I. But Wade has used big boys before. Big Ted Washington when Wade was DC in Buffalo (1995) comes to mind. So, if Wade thinks a guy fits his scheme; i.e., can be a disruptive force, he'll snag him.
WR Floyd has been arrested for alcohol issues three times. If you know Mr. McNair's history those type players do not get drafted by Texans. You have evaluated Floyd's skills correctly as he is a stud.

I too want Upshaw if available whether Mario is a Texan or not as he could be better than Reed. On my most recent mock I selected Hightower ILB for the reason's CND mentioned. Actually, I posted the mock before I read CND's info but still is the right move.

Thanks for your comments. Enjoy the debate.
You're probably right about Floyd. And Upshaw will likely be gone when we pick. Unless we can snag a DeMeco replacement I'm for trading back - if we can find a sucker ...errr partner.

And I, too, enjoy the debate. Thanks.
and my apologies for the lengthy post.
:backsout:

thunderkyss
11-13-2011, 12:58 AM
Hopefully we have found one in the second round and just might get one in first next draft in Courtney Upshaw. :dancer:

Reed + Mario is better than Reed + hopefully our next 1st round pick meets expectations.

Rey
11-13-2011, 02:47 AM
You're never going to convince them of this.

They're blinded by MW's potential. Just like fans were at N.C. State. MW's game is all about potential. Potential he's failed to reach in in college or the NFL.

There's always some extenuating circumsnces why MW has failed to reach his potential. But next yr is always the yr he's going to reach it. Didn't BoBBy speak out about MW's lack of production in the Comical last yr?

Mario isn't some guy we are waiting to get results from.

He's already pretty damn good.

dalemurphy
11-13-2011, 04:07 AM
Mario isn't some guy we are waiting to get results from.

He's already pretty damn good.

You are correct. However, his production has also been on the decline since 2008. His health has also been on the decline since 2008. Meanwhile, the Texans' talent level has increases significantly and they are up against the cap. So, are we going to pay him Charles Johnson money (6 for $72) or more and make it more difficult to get other contracts done? Or, do we let a "pretty damn good" player whose production and health are declining get paid like a great player get paid by somebody else? I think it will be the latter. I also think that is the right move.

Rey
11-14-2011, 08:19 AM
:bender:
4. He doesn't love football. I worry about 2nd contracts for those type guys.

Dale...

I knew you were biased against Mario, but really?

Are you really reading his heart now? :heart:

How on earth could you possibly know this?

Rey
11-14-2011, 08:28 AM
You are correct. However, his production has also been on the decline since 2008. His health has also been on the decline since 2008. Meanwhile, the Texans' talent level has increases significantly and they are up against the cap. So, are we going to pay him Charles Johnson money (6 for $72) or more and make it more difficult to get other contracts done? Or, do we let a "pretty damn good" player whose production and health are declining get paid like a great player get paid by somebody else? I think it will be the latter. I also think that is the right move.

Mario has played under terrible d-coordinators just like everyone else.

During his time under Phillips he was shining just like everyone else.As a matter of fact, he shined under bad d-coordinators too.

Yes he has had injury issues, but who hasn't? For the most part he has played through them though.

Errant Hothy
11-14-2011, 08:35 AM
Reed + Mario is better than Reed + hopefully our next 1st round pick meets expectations.

It's not that simple, sadly.

Is Redd/Barwin + Mario better then Reed/Barwin + drafted OLB + the free agant/s that Mario's cap space can bring in is the more accurate question.

At this point all I want is a true speed rusher with moves to wreck havoc off on edge of the D, and I'm still not convinced that guy is on the roster, the IR spots included.

Trail.Blazr
11-14-2011, 09:03 AM
Mario has played under terrible d-coordinators just like everyone else.

During his time under Phillips he was shining just like everyone else.As a matter of fact, he shined under bad d-coordinators too.

Yes he has had injury issues, but who hasn't? For the most part he has played through them though.

If by shined you mean plays up to the level of being the 1st overall pick in the draft... I don't see that. I don't think many people would say Mario sucks... Hell, I am a HUGE fan, as my User name would indicate.. However, in the years since drafting Mario, he has only 'flirted' with justifying his contract and his draft status.

It's fair to say that the organization gone the extra mile to invest in his LONG term maturation.

Bottom line is that for all his efforts and all the excuses of not living up to lofty expectations, it has played out with him doing exactly what any fan would fear... If anything, he's not met my expectations.

All said.. we have options:
- Pay him Mad money on another contract(again and hope he eventually proves the naysayers/doubting thomas's wrong) We already took a flyer on this option.
- Attempt to retain him with a contract that coincides with his accomplishments vs his potential.
- Trade him
- Franchise him

Hate to say it, but if there is any decent trade offers, IMHO, the other options either seem unrealistic or don't make much sense.

dalemurphy
11-14-2011, 09:20 AM
:bender:

Dale...

I knew you were biased against Mario, but really?

Are you really reading his heart now? :heart:

How on earth could you possibly know this?

I don't know it with certainty though it seems clear. He's been a DE for 10 years and has yet to develop any counter moves. He clearly, also, does not play with the passion and fire that guys like Antonio Smith and Brian Cushing do. That is what I know and what my conclusions are based on.

Rey
11-14-2011, 09:53 AM
I don't know it with certainty though it seems clear. He's been a DE for 10 years and has yet to develop any counter moves. He clearly, also, does not play with the passion and fire that guys like Antonio Smith and Brian Cushing do. That is what I know and what my conclusions are based on.


So because he has a different personality type than those two guys he doesn't love football?

Some guys just don't have fiery personalities. I didn't have a fiery personality when I played, but I love the game.


If by shined you mean plays up to the level of being the 1st overall pick in the draft... I don't see that. I don't think many people would say Mario sucks... Hell, I am a HUGE fan, as my User name would indicate.. However, in the years since drafting Mario, he has only 'flirted' with justifying his contract and his draft status.

It's fair to say that the organization gone the extra mile to invest in his LONG term maturation.

Bottom line is that for all his efforts and all the excuses of not living up to lofty expectations, it has played out with him doing exactly what any fan would fear... If anything, he's not met my expectations.

All said.. we have options:
- Pay him Mad money on another contract(again and hope he eventually proves the naysayers/doubting thomas's wrong) We already took a flyer on this option.
- Attempt to retain him with a contract that coincides with his accomplishments vs his potential.
- Trade him
- Franchise him

Hate to say it, but if there is any decent trade offers, IMHO, the other options either seem unrealistic or don't make much sense.


Mario has lived up to his draft status considering what our other options were. Even taking that out of the equation, he has been a good pick for us. If you thought he was supposed to come in and be the best ever then no...he has not reached that level.

dalemurphy
11-14-2011, 10:03 AM
So because he has a different personality type than those two guys he doesn't love football?

Some guys just don't have fiery personalities. I didn't have a fiery personality when I played, but I love the game.

I'd be reluctant to give you a $100 million contract as well. I'm not sold on Mario has a guy who will live up to a huge, second contract. And, I don't think he is so valuable to the team that we need to risk a big contract on him. I agree that he's been a good player and I certainly wish he was healthy and playing right now.

steelbtexan
11-14-2011, 10:22 AM
Ngata was the best player in the 2006 draft.

MW has been what I expected him to be, it's what he was in college.

A very good player with great potential. But he doesn't have the passion for the game to be great. He has the ability to be an all time great. But this probably wont happen if it hasn't happened by now.

Rey
11-14-2011, 10:24 AM
I'd be reluctant to give you a $100 million contract as well.

Try to follow along.

My point was that just because a guy isn't fiery all the time doesn't mean they don't have passion for the game.

I'm not sold on Mario has a guy who will live up to a huge, second contract. And, I don't think he is so valuable to the team that we need to risk a big contract on him. I agree that he's been a good player and I certainly wish he was healthy and playing right now.

Dale, you jump around on your arguments. The point I specifically quoted you on was your attempt at reading his heart. I don't care to discuss contract stuff because I really don't know much about it and everyone I've heard regarding it has had something wrong at one point or another regarding moves the Texans can/could or couldn't make.

I'll leave the contract stuff to you guys. I'm just talking about him as a football player.

badboy
11-14-2011, 10:37 AM
People have pointed to New England for years as the role model of drafting, trading vets and signing free agents. They have allowed good players to move on & received draft picks the team then used to strengthen roster. this is what I am advocating. It is not about whether Mario is elite or just good. It is not about if we like the guy (I do). It is about do we have a player in Reed who can create havoc in the backfield from OLB? He now has 5 sacks & it appears we do. We still have 6 games minimum to evaluate. If we can have $15m cap space and two reasonably high picks to strengthen roster...

dalemurphy
11-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Try to follow along.

My point was that just because a guy isn't fiery all the time doesn't mean they don't have passion for the game.



Dale, you jump around on your arguments. The point I specifically quoted you on was your attempt at reading his heart. I don't care to discuss contract stuff because I really don't know much about it and everyone I've heard regarding it has had something wrong at one point or another regarding moves the Texans can/could or couldn't make.

I'll leave the contract stuff to you guys. I'm just talking about him as a football player.

The entire argument centers around his value as a player relative to the contract he will likely command. Sure, I'd love Mario to be here making a minimal salary. The organization has a decision ahead, regarding Mario, that will impact the entire team and the future of the organization.

Questioning Mario's passion for the game of football is not an endictment on him as a human being but I think players that don't exhibit passion and love for the game are higher risks later in their careers, particularly when they've earned so many millions of dollars as Mario.

I realize your point. I'm not arguing Mario doesn't love football strictly because he's not a nutcase like BCush and A.Smith. I also pointed out his unwillingness (or disinterest) to develop skills in his game... The man still relies almost exclusively on a bull rush. Why? If he loved football the way some do, I would think he would have developed an arsenal of moves by now and be a technician the way Jared Allen is, for instance.

Trail.Blazr
11-14-2011, 11:25 AM
Mario has lived up to his draft status considering what our other options were. Even taking that out of the equation, he has been a good pick for us. If you thought he was supposed to come in and be the best ever then no...he has not reached that level.

I disagree. He was signed and re-signed to blockbuster deals. I'm all but certain that was because he was the face of the franchise with the expectation of blockbuster play, NOT based on the consideration of the other options.

Whole heartedly agree to this. GOOD.

Look, I'm not saying Mario is a Bust. I'm not saying I don't want to seem him continue to play as a Texan for years to come.

I AM suggesting that he's underachieved based on his pay and his hype that was fed by the PRO-Mario supporters when drafted. It's been long enough to judge him and I've seen nothing to suggest he's GREAT enough to continue throwing blockbuster contracts at him.

Throwing big money at a player because he's proven to be better than Reggie Bush or Vince Young is not as good an option than trading him for need or the chance to find other GOOD players with potential for greatness in the draft. Asomugha vs Manning and Joseph is a prime example of getting two players of need vs one. I'm happy with the way that went, but that doesn't mean I think Asoumgha is a bum.

IMHO, rewarding Mario with another blockbuster contract would be foolish. He's no longer the face of the franchise, and again, has only shown flashes of greatness in 6 years. Nothing that stands out to suggest he's the man. The only arguments I've seen to justify his mediocrity are injury and coaching.. both of which are weak in terms of justification to keep rewarding him. 6 years... It's time to consider cashing in on his value of another team seeing him as a potentially great player.

VTexan
11-14-2011, 11:36 AM
Mario and the front office know that he will not get 15 Million on the open market. What I expect to see is a contract around 8-12 million per year and heavy on bonuses.


Trades won't be feasible with the franchise tag because no team will want to take on such a huge salary.

thunderkyss
11-14-2011, 11:36 AM
Mario is a pro bowler & an All-Pro.

Mario has played well, racking up sacks & earning the respect of the people that matter around the league.

Mario has done what he has done & earned his reputation despite the fact that we continually say, "We've got to get Mario some help"

We've finally got that help & people want to get rid of him?

Doesn't make sense to me. If Mario was healthy & playing these last few weeks, there is no doubt in my mind that he would look like that beast, 20 sack pass rusher he's supposed to be.

Rey
11-14-2011, 11:38 AM
People have pointed to New England for years as the role model of drafting, trading vets and signing free agents. They have allowed good players to move on & received draft picks the team then used to strengthen roster.

New England has Tom Brady.

They can have the worst pass defense in the league and still win games.

GB went to the superbowl last year mostly because of Rodgers at the QB position.

The Colts have gotten by for so long because of #18.

Great QB's can exponentially raise the level of play of the entire team. Schaub is not that guy and that is not me knocking Schaub.

The Patriots also have been aggressive as far as bringing in FA's..

It's fine to follow a model set by others but you also have to keep in mind that situations are never exactly the same and what works for one team may not work for another.

And besides that, some might say that new England getting rid of Seymour was still not a good idea.

Scooter
11-14-2011, 11:39 AM
where are yall getting this? in his first 5 seasons mario has had 48 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, averaged 46 tackles and only missed 3 games total. i would draft that production in the top 10 if he were a 260lb specialist ... as a 290lb run stuffer as well it's easy to validate taking him first overall.

nowhere but houston do the fans think mario is so flawed, around the league he's seen as a monster. i'm willing to bet that 32 teams would try their hardest to keep mario on the roster. i'm also fairly sure we could work a deal to make his next cap impact much easier than his current deal.

Rey
11-14-2011, 11:43 AM
IMHO, rewarding Mario with another blockbuster contract would be foolish. He's no longer the face of the franchise, and again, has only shown flashes of greatness in 6 years.

How many players are consistently great?

By your standards not too many players actually deserve or have lived up to their contracts.

Mario has played under the same ****ty defense everyone else was playing in. The dude is still really young. He has only been in the league since '06 and you guys are acting like he has been mediocre for 10 years when in actuality he has been a good to great player for most of his tenure in the league.

Ok, I guess.

Like I've said. I think he'll be here next year.

Rey
11-14-2011, 11:45 AM
where are yall getting this? in his first 5 seasons mario has had 48 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, averaged 46 tackles and only missed 3 games total. i would draft that production in the top 10 if he were a 260lb specialist ... as a 290lb run stuffer as well it's easy to validate taking him first overall.

nowhere but houston do the fans think mario is so flawed, around the league he's seen as a monster. i'm willing to bet that 32 teams would try their hardest to keep mario on the roster. i'm also fairly sure we could work a deal to make his next cap impact much easier than his current deal.

Great post.

Thorn
11-14-2011, 11:46 AM
nowhere but houston do the fans think mario is so flawed, around the league he's seen as a monster.

Unless some team offers up a truly outrageous and draft changing deal, Mario will sign a contract with the Texans. And afterwards, we'll all be right back here debating it. :lol:

Trail.Blazr
11-14-2011, 11:49 AM
20 sack pass rusher he's supposed to be.

But he's been hurt.
But he's been undercoached.
But he's lacked surrounding talent.
But
But
But

marks01234
11-14-2011, 11:58 AM
My thoughts -

You don't let a great player go for a bunch of good players. Great players are what is needed to win championships. You need playmakers like Clay Matthews, BJ Ragi and Charles Woodsen. It's easy to find guys to play solid around that kind of talent. Even now - our passing game look pretty solid without Andre but there is no denying that we need him to go to the next level.

Depending on where you think Mario Williams is at, you have to respect that over the past five years his numbers compare very well to every other DE/OLB in the league. You also have to respect that he had 5 sacks, a forced fumble and several QB pressures in 4 1/4 games this season in our 3-4 scheme.

You also have to note that for the first time our history, we are a good situation for a pass rusher. Every other season, we have seen mainly run formations in the second half because we were playing from behind. This year it is the complete opposite. Look at Freeney's numbers this year for some prespective. I think this has to be factored in when comparing Mario's 08/09 numbers with Reeds 2011 numbers. Overall though, this a good thing for our team.

I'm really not sure how you can equate Mario's lack of moves to not loving the game. It's obvious from the guys' body he cares enough to stay in great shape.

I agree that we need to structure the deal to protect ourselves from breaking the bank if Mario doesn't stay healthy. But the guy should be a face of our franchise - he's a good guy off the field and has been successful on it. I'd much rather be trying to find a few serviceable role players around Mario than I would trying to take roll the dice in free agency or the draft again.

BigBull17
11-14-2011, 12:03 PM
:bender:

Dale...

I knew you were biased against Mario, but really?

Are you really reading his heart now? :heart:

How on earth could you possibly know this?

Yeah, guys who don't really like football or their teammates travel with the team and play cheerleader. It's a dumb and sadly typical, Dale argument.

Hervoyel
11-14-2011, 12:54 PM
I look at the the way Mario was playing when he got hurt and think I see a man who is "getting it". Every week he seemed a little more comfortable there and a little more effective. It just seemed like he was right at the verge of blowing up.

Then he got hurt and we switched to Brooks Reed. He seemed tentative as expected. He had a lot of catching up to do on top of the fact that he's a rookie. In the time he's been starting in Mario's place he's caught up with Mario I think in terms of understanding his role and "bringing the ruckus".

Now I want to know what happens when Mario & Brooks are switching out whenever one gets tired. I want to see their version of what Foster & Tate do.

Mr teX
11-14-2011, 01:29 PM
Ngata was the best player in the 2006 draft.

MW has been what I expected him to be, it's what he was in college.

A very good player with great potential. But he doesn't have the passion for the game to be great. He has the ability to be an all time great. But this probably wont happen if it hasn't happened by now.



Funny you mention Ngata....not a guy with a fiery personality...so does that mean he doesn't have passion for the game too? You guys don't know what the hell you want nor do you know what's in a guys heart to say he doesn't have passion for the game.

All this is a weak attempt to try to bash a guy you've long had it out for.

Mr teX
11-14-2011, 01:38 PM
I look at the the way Mario was playing when he got hurt and think I see a man who is "getting it". Every week he seemed a little more comfortable there and a little more effective. It just seemed like he was right at the verge of blowing up.

Then he got hurt and we switched to Brooks Reed. He seemed tentative as expected. He had a lot of catching up to do on top of the fact that he's a rookie. In the time he's been starting in Mario's place he's caught up with Mario I think in terms of understanding his role and "bringing the ruckus".

Now I want to know what happens when Mario & Brooks are switching out whenever one gets tired. I want to see their version of what Foster & Tate do.

This is another thing too that people are discounting. This defesne as a whole has began to gel ....as we all thought would happen with all the players getting more & more comfy in the system. The fact that Mario never really got to reap the rewards of this & still managed to kill it (unlike Reed) speaks more about mario's capability in this system than anything.

beerlover
11-14-2011, 01:46 PM
I look at the the way Mario was playing when he got hurt and think I see a man who is "getting it". Every week he seemed a little more comfortable there and a little more effective. It just seemed like he was right at the verge of blowing up.

Then he got hurt and we switched to Brooks Reed. He seemed tentative as expected. He had a lot of catching up to do on top of the fact that he's a rookie. In the time he's been starting in Mario's place he's caught up with Mario I think in terms of understanding his role and "bringing the ruckus".

Now I want to know what happens when Mario & Brooks are switching out whenever one gets tired. I want to see their version of what Foster & Tate do.

Can't speak to what Wade might do, seems like a good problem to have but I just might kick Antonio or Watt inside drop Mario RDE & leave Brooks @ OLB were he excels.

VTexan
11-14-2011, 02:01 PM
I think when it's all said and done, Barwin will be on the sideline.

badboy
11-14-2011, 02:27 PM
New England has Tom Brady.

They can have the worst pass defense in the league and still win games.

GB went to the superbowl last year mostly because of Rodgers at the QB position.

The Colts have gotten by for so long because of #18.

Great QB's can exponentially raise the level of play of the entire team. Schaub is not that guy and that is not me knocking Schaub.

The Patriots also have been aggressive as far as bringing in FA's..

It's fine to follow a model set by others but you also have to keep in mind that situations are never exactly the same and what works for one team may not work for another.

And besides that, some might say that new England getting rid of Seymour was still not a good idea.I agree but the Oakland pick now is looking to be in the 17- 20 area. Players there:
OT. Reilly Reiff, OG Cordy Glenn, OLB, Courtney Uphaw, DT Alemeda Ta'Amu, WR Michael FLoyd, C Peter Knoz, OG David DeCastro and CB Chase minnifield.

Tom Brady, what have you done for me lately?

badboy
11-14-2011, 02:33 PM
where are yall getting this? in his first 5 seasons mario has had 48 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, averaged 46 tackles and only missed 3 games total. i would draft that production in the top 10 if he were a 260lb specialist ... as a 290lb run stuffer as well it's easy to validate taking him first overall.

nowhere but houston do the fans think mario is so flawed, around the league he's seen as a monster. i'm willing to bet that 32 teams would try their hardest to keep mario on the roster. i'm also fairly sure we could work a deal to make his next cap impact much easier than his current deal.I hope this is correct and some of them get into a bidding war offering monster trade offers for him.

badboy
11-14-2011, 02:39 PM
Can't speak to what Wade might do, seems like a good problem to have but I just might kick Antonio or Watt inside drop Mario RDE & leave Brooks @ OLB were he excels.This is what I expect to see.

dalemurphy
11-14-2011, 05:20 PM
Funny you mention Ngata....not a guy with a fiery personality...so does that mean he doesn't have passion for the game too? You guys don't know what the hell you want nor do you know what's in a guys heart to say he doesn't have passion for the game.

All this is a weak attempt to try to bash a guy you've long had it out for.

I'm not referring to personality but a tenacious style of play that is consistent and goes to the whistle. I worry about defensive players that don't have that. Mario doesn't. I don't know that I would call that "fiery".

PHAROAH
11-28-2011, 08:28 AM
Guys,


I have a question for all of you do the Texans need to put the Franchise or Transition tag on Mario and look to move him for a boat load of picks in this upcoming off-season to rebuild our team in areas of need since our Linebackers have played well and we can draft a true OLB that is a better fit for what we do in our 3-4 scheme. With all of the injuries at QB position I think that this is a way to really kind of re-shape our teams current state and our future, just imagine having two first round picks in this years draft and depending what other picks that are included we could be very deep team with one draft ok let's here it!!!!



1st & 3rd pick in the up coming 2012 Draft
2nd or 3rd in the 2013 Draft


Players & Positions Targeted with the Picks in the 2012 Draft.


1st rd pick - FS - TJ Mcdonald - USC 6'3 205


1st rd Pick (Mario Williams Trade) - WR - Michael Floyd - Notre Dame - 6'3" 220




2nd Rd Pick - OLB/DE - Brandon Jenkins - Florida St. - 6'3" 255



3rd (Mario Williams Trade) - QB - Ryan Tennehill - Texas A&M - We might have to move up back into the 2nd rd to get him but now we have trading power to do so with the Trade but I still project him in the 3rd rd.


3rd rd - NT - Josh Chapman - Alabama - 6'2" 310


4th rd - WR/KR - Travis Benjamin - Miami - 5'10" 175 - Speed in the slot.


5th rd - DE/DT - Tony Jerod-Eddie - Texas A&M - 6'5" 300


6th rd - S - Blake Gideon - Texas - 6'1" 207

Grams
11-28-2011, 08:29 AM
Guys,


I have a question for all of you do the Texans need to put the Franchise or Transition tag on Mario and look to move him for a boat load of picks in this upcoming off-season to rebuild our team in areas of need since our Linebackers have played well and we can draft a true OLB that is a better fit for what we do in our 3-4 scheme. With all of the injuries at QB position I think that this is a way to really kind of re-shape our teams current state and our future, just imagine having two first round picks in this years draft and depending what other picks that are including we could be very deep team with one draft ok let's here it!!!!



1st & 3rd pick in the up coming 2012 Draft
2nd or 3rd in the 2013 Draft


Players & Positions Targeted with the Picks in the 2012 Draft.


1st rd pick - FS - TJ Mcdonald - USC 6'3 205


1st rd Pick (Mario Williams Trade) - WR - Michael Floyd - Notre Dame - 6'3" 220




2nd Rd Pick - OLB/DE - Brandon Jenkins - Florida St. - 6'3" 255



3rd (Mario Williams Trade) - QB - Ryan Tennehill - Texas A&M - We might have to move up back into the 2nd rd to get him but now we have trading power to do so with the Trade but I still project him in the 3rd rd.


3rd rd - NT - Josh Chapman - Alabama - 6'2" 310


4th rd - WR/KR - Travis Benjamin - Miami - 5'10" 175 - Speed in the slot.


5th rd - DE/DT - Tony Jerod-Eddie - Texas A&M - 6'5" 300


6th rd - S - Blake Gideon - Texas - 6'1" 207

There are several threads about this same topic.

srrono
11-28-2011, 08:30 AM
The obligatory trade Mario thread

PHAROAH
11-28-2011, 08:32 AM
Sorry was just a thought just looking at ways to get better as a team and I really don't see the Texans re-signing him as we have big fish to fry such as Arian Foster.

steelbtexan
11-28-2011, 08:38 AM
Wrong Section

This goes in the NFL draft section

HJam72
11-28-2011, 08:56 AM
Let's trade him for Aaron Rodgers right now (Yes, I'm dreaming).

cuppacoffee
11-28-2011, 09:09 AM
Let's trade him for Aaron Rodgers right now (Yes, I'm dreaming).

Or a Papa Johns pizza.

:coffee:

Playoffs
11-28-2011, 10:34 AM
The obligatory trade Mario thread

:mariopalm:

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 10:53 AM
Let's trade him for Aaron Rodgers right now (Yes, I'm dreaming).

I'd trade him Tavaris Jackson, at this point!

gafftop
12-20-2011, 08:24 AM
Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion.

Here we are almost exactly 8 months from this post. Took a lot of negative hits from this thread I started. Here we are now and where do we stand? It was my feeling that no matter what happened we would be in a bad place with Mario once the season was over.

I am reading on other threads that we trade Mario now for this and/or that. Someone please explain how we do this? Isn't he a free agent? I think we missed our chance to get something of value for MW. I still thinks he WALKS with us getting nothing but the PITY pick/consolation pick/Dunta pick etc.

Why do I think we get nothing? I don't think we can " non-exclusive " franchise and expect anyone to offer anything for Mario if it means them giving up high round draft choices. I don't think we outright franchise him because he is not worth what we would need to pay him. We can transition tag him but correct me if I am wrong, if we don't match we get nothing.

Anyone watch the game last night. Anyone see Aldon Smith. Anyone think Mario is better. I am sure there are.

Somebody make me feel better and explain how we come out of this deal whole.

I can't help but think where this team would be now if a trade would have been made and we had a real 1b WR and another real CB.

The great teams stay great by always increasing overall talent VALUE. We will lose overall value if we keep Mario or we lose overall value if we let Mario walk.

I really am ecstatic with the Texans season. It may not seem like that but I am. I just have this feeling that we could be a whole lot better if a trade was made.

Again someone explain how we trade Mario now. thanks

badboy
12-20-2011, 04:13 PM
Here we are almost exactly 8 months from this post. Took a lot of negative hits from this thread I started. Here we are now and where do we stand? It was my feeling that no matter what happened we would be in a bad place with Mario once the season was over.

I am reading on other threads that we trade Mario now for this and/or that. Someone please explain how we do this? Isn't he a free agent? I think we missed our chance to get something of value for MW. I still thinks he WALKS with us getting nothing but the PITY pick/consolation pick/Dunta pick etc.

Why do I think we get nothing? I don't think we can " non-exclusive " franchise and expect anyone to offer anything for Mario if it means them giving up high round draft choices. I don't think we outright franchise him because he is not worth what we would need to pay him. We can transition tag him but correct me if I am wrong, if we don't match we get nothing.

Anyone watch the game last night. Anyone see Aldon Smith. Anyone think Mario is better. I am sure there are.

Somebody make me feel better and explain how we come out of this deal whole.

I can't help but think where this team would be now if a trade would have been made and we had a real 1b WR and another real CB.

The great teams stay great by always increasing overall talent VALUE. We will lose overall value if we keep Mario or we lose overall value if we let Mario walk.

I really am ecstatic with the Texans season. It may not seem like that but I am. I just have this feeling that we could be a whole lot better if a trade was made.

Again someone explain how we trade Mario now. thanksWell, you will not find anyone to trade for him now due to his injury and if you did find a willing partner, it would be at a major discount. I think the key info that we do not seem to have is his true salary. There are not many sources offering player contracts. Also, incentatives are usually not figured in. This week on radio John McClain said Mario's 2011 salary is $18m with cap at (almost) $22m. I cannot verify that. Here is an old paragraph from ESPN:

League salary documents obtained by ESPN.com confirm the six-year contract signed last month by former North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, the first selection in this year's draft by the Houston Texans, features a basic value of $54 million and a maximum worth, counting all possible bonuses, incentives and escalators, of $62.1 million.


The guaranteed money in the contract is initially $21.75 million, and then jumps to $26.5 million after the Texans exercise an option next spring.

This link says there was no signing bonus which is my understanding:
http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=31042

My source Rotoworld has Mario @ $13.8m which if correct leads to 20% increase on a franchise tag = $2.76m + 13.8= $16.56m. Tag can be made in late February. He will be 27 Jan 31, 2012.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3636/mario-williams

I think Mario will agree to a reasonable (if higher than I want) long term deal, say 6 years $72m and with a huge up front bonus which will allow team to reduce the cap hit he is at now. Then it gets interesting:

We can keep him or trade him to someone like NE where he would prob go & play DE. PATs have two firsts and two seconds. I would trade him for a first & second. Another option is Eagles have two seconds apprx 37 & 47 & I'd look at that favorably. Phily adding a CB in first and Mario?

gafftop
12-20-2011, 09:56 PM
Well, you will not find anyone to trade for him now due to his injury and if you did find a willing partner, it would be at a major discount. I think the key info that we do not seem to have is his true salary. There are not many sources offering player contracts. Also, incentatives are usually not figured in. This week on radio John McClain said Mario's 2011 salary is $18m with cap at (almost) $22m. I cannot verify that. Here is an old paragraph from ESPN:

League salary documents obtained by ESPN.com confirm the six-year contract signed last month by former North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, the first selection in this year's draft by the Houston Texans, features a basic value of $54 million and a maximum worth, counting all possible bonuses, incentives and escalators, of $62.1 million.


The guaranteed money in the contract is initially $21.75 million, and then jumps to $26.5 million after the Texans exercise an option next spring.

This link says there was no signing bonus which is my understanding:
http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=31042

My source Rotoworld has Mario @ $13.8m which if correct leads to 20% increase on a franchise tag = $2.76m + 13.8= $16.56m. Tag can be made in late February. He will be 27 Jan 31, 2012.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3636/mario-williams

I think Mario will agree to a reasonable (if higher than I want) long term deal, say 6 years $72m and with a huge up front bonus which will allow team to reduce the cap hit he is at now. Then it gets interesting:

We can keep him or trade him to someone like NE where he would prob go & play DE. PATs have two firsts and two seconds. I would trade him for a first & second. Another option is Eagles have two seconds apprx 37 & 47 & I'd look at that favorably. Phily adding a CB in first and Mario?

I would take either of those deals. For some reason I don't see Mario agreeing to anything. Hope I am wrong.

Brisco_County
12-20-2011, 10:48 PM
I don't want to see Mario go, but he has to either agree to a significantly smaller contract, or he won't be a Texan. We need the cap space to pay Foster, which is a higher priority.

The reasons Mario might be willing to do this are because he'll get to stay at a position he prefers, and he'll be rotated out with Reed. He knows his limitations regarding endurance and durability.

I'm not banking on him staying, but it's possible.

leebigeztx
12-21-2011, 12:35 AM
How many teams let go or trade their best defensive player/pass rusher under the age of 30. I see the team playing well defensively, but you can never have enough good rushers and williams was going to be a monster this season. Now what they can do is offer him more than woodley,hali,and dummervill money and stage it based on likely to be earned incentives. Like someone said before. 6 yrs that average 12m per with half in the 1st 3 yrs of the deal. 6 yrs 72m with 35 guaranteed in 1st 3 yrs. 1st yr bonus of 11.5,2nd yr 11.5, and 3rd yr 12m, after that it could be 6m salary and 6m roster bonus due on 1st day of the calender year. If he's healthy and playing well, its fair market after the 1st 3 yrs, if he's hurt alot and not producing, you cut him and move on.

leebigeztx
12-21-2011, 12:36 AM
I don't want to see Mario go, but he has to either agree to a significantly smaller contract, or he won't be a Texan. We need the cap space to pay Foster, which is a higher priority.

The reasons Mario might be willing to do this are because he'll get to stay at a position he prefers, and he'll be rotated out with Reed. He knows his limitations regarding endurance and durability.

I'm not banking on him staying, but it's possible.

A rb is never a higher priority than a pass rusher.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 04:33 AM
How many teams let go or trade their best defensive player/pass rusher und....


Didn't Tennessee let Kearse go kinda early?

srrono
12-21-2011, 03:17 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/32197/mario-williams-and-the-franchise-tag

Perhaps the biggest question that will hover over the Houston Texans after the season ends, no matter how it ends, is whether to extend defensive end-turned-outside linebacker Mario Williams.

With Conner Barwin and Brooks Reed as their outside linebackers since Williams suffered a season-ending torn pectoral muscle on Oct. 9, the Texans have done just fine. They rattled off a seven-game winning streak that just ended and clinched their first AFC South title and playoff berth.

Williams is a dominant force. The Texansí defense could have been even better with him. But heís been slowed by a couple of injuries, and a pass-rusher of his caliber will cost a fortune on the free market. Houston extended some players at the start of camp to make their salary cap work, and he wasnít in the mix.

ďI love the Houston Texans; the teamís been great, the organizationís been great since Iíve been here,Ē Williams said this week. ďAt the end of the day, itís business. Whatever decision they make, at this point Iím just trying to help the team focus on winning. ... I couldnít care less about my contract right now. The big picture right now is just for us to do well and fight through the injuries.Ē

Iíve frequently been asked if I think he will be re-signed, and my answer has been that I think the Texans will use the franchise tag on him.

I figured, too, that a battle over his position could ensue with regard to the tag, like what the Ravens and Terrell Suggs went through in 2008 and 2009.

The Ravens argued Suggs was a linebacker, as he was listed as one on the Pro Bowl ballot. Suggs' representation argued he played more than half of his snaps as a pass-rushing end.

Suggs filed a grievance on getting the right franchise number and the sides finally agreed on a hybrid figure, which was in between the defensive end and linebacker number.

Asking around about the tag, I learned that rough estimates were just given to the clubs.

SportsNation

What should the Texans do with Mario Williams during the offseason?

Sign him long term
Use the franchise tag on him
Allow him to test the free-agent market

In the new CBA, franchise numbers look to be going down. Itís still regarded as ďthe average of the five-highest paid players at the position from the previous season,Ē but those words donít mean what they used to, and itís actually the average of the five-highest paid players at the position as a share of the salary cap over the past five seasons.

Skip ahead if you donít care for legalese, or dive in if you want the actual CBA language on it. Here is how a franchise number is now calculated:

(1) Summing the amounts of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 2011 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012 League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the 2007-2011 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for the 2012 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average")


So the owners got the numbers tamped down in the new deal. The players will get smaller percentages of a larger cap, but until there is a real cap boom, the resulting number will be lower than it has been.

The safety franchise tag, for instance, accounted for 8.8 percent of the $120 million salary cap last season, but will now be worth roughly 5.1 percent of the cap.

So whatís the difference between a tagged linebacker and end going to look like under the 2012 cap, expected to be about $125 million?

The defensive end number will be roughly 8.8 percent of the cap, down from 12.9.

The linebacker number will be roughly 7.3 percent, down from 10 percent.

So as an end, Williams would get an $11 million tag, and as a linebacker it would be $8.125 million. If the Texans choose to hold onto Williams with a tag, the sides could argue about the $2.875 million difference.

Is Williams an outside linebacker in the Texans 3-4 system? Yes. Have the Texans maintained itís not very different from what he did as a defensive end, particularly in the nickel package? They have.

So despite clear CBA language that says the tag is determined by the position ďat which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year,Ē there could still be a debate over semantics -- is Williams a linebacker if heís not in a three-point stance, or if heís lined up where an end lines up is he an end no matter his stance or the teamís scheme?

Williamsí agent, Ben Dogra, didnít answer an email inquiry about the possible debate.

ďIf it comes to [a franchise tag], then so be it,Ē Williams said. ďIím open to whatever, weíll discuss that. I understand the way things work with salary caps and so forth. Whatever could help the team out, me and my agent will look at every option and go through that.

For tag purposes is he a linebacker or an end?

ďI donít know, I have no idea,Ē he said. "At the end of the day, obviously Iím still, I am a defensive end. I donít know how that would go down or whatever. Iím sure either way it will work itself out.

ďThere are a lot of smart guys up there who can move things around and figure stuff out. Iíll let them handle and my agent that while I support the team anyway I can and get healthy and be ready to play next year.Ē

kiwitexansfan
12-21-2011, 03:28 PM
I would say we do.

You don't let a stud DE go easily.

If Wade really likes what he has without Mario, I would look at maybe leveraging the franchise tag for a trade situation. I would not let Mario walk away.

ThaShark316
12-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Do whatever, just do NOT let him walk.

I say it's a HUGE mistake to do anything other than keep him. That being said, if he's not back here in '12, then it better had been via trade.

If he leaves, get something for him. Otherwise, keep him.

Texecutioner
12-21-2011, 03:37 PM
Franchise him only if we can trade him to a team and get compensation.

If not let his ass walk and spend that money on players that are worth it. Mario has proven for years that he "isn't" worth anywhere close to what he's been paid.

Brisco_County
12-21-2011, 03:57 PM
A rb is never a higher priority than a pass rusher.

Do you really think Mario Williams is more valuable to this team than Arian Foster?

TheRealJoker
12-21-2011, 04:05 PM
Franchise him. Either let him play a year franchised ala Dunta or let a team trade for him. He's too good to just let go for a measly chance at a compensatory pick.

Dutchrudder
12-21-2011, 04:08 PM
Would love to franchise him and trade him for two 2nd's or so. Almost anything other than hoping to get a 3rd comp pick for him is better.

Texecutioner
12-21-2011, 04:17 PM
Would love to franchise him and trade him for two 2nd's or so. Almost anything other than hoping to get a 3rd comp pick for him is better.

I'd be really happy to get two 2nd round picks for Mario.

badboy
12-21-2011, 04:18 PM
This information, I believe was presented in another thread and leaves out that Mario will get 120% of his 2011 salary IF tagged. I expect him to sign a long term deal without the tag being applied. Whether he remains on the roster after that is open for discussion.

badboy
12-21-2011, 04:19 PM
Would love to franchise him and trade him for two 2nd's or so. Almost anything other than hoping to get a 3rd comp pick for him is better.Philly has two seconds. :thinking:

Dutchrudder
12-21-2011, 04:21 PM
Philly has two seconds. :thinking:

They also have Babin under contract for the next 4-5 years and Trent Cole through next year.

Playoffs
12-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Do whatever, just do NOT let him walk.
Keep him.

Mr. White
12-21-2011, 04:45 PM
Marc and John did an interview with him on 610 2 or 3 weeks ago.

The thing that struck me was that he said that the Texans would be taking a huge cap hit even if they franchised him. He said that he didn't think that the Texans would want to spend that percentage of the cap on him.

Goldensilence
12-21-2011, 04:48 PM
His injury this year couldn't have come at a worse time far as his contract status with the Texans goes.

In past years this defense would've been dead without him and drawing double teams and getting pressure on the QB. Since his injury Barwin has really developed into the kind of pass rusher the FO had envisioned when they drafted him (Said from day one he was going to be a mediocre DE but, could be elite as a OLB in the 3-4) and Reed has grasped things really quickly. Which IMO could make him close to expendable if we're going to keep him as a LB.

Would've been nice to see if Williams at LB could be long term, I think physically he's prolly better suited as a 4-3 DE.

I think the Texans are fine either way. I don't see Mario making it a distraction ala Dunta "Pay Me Rick" Robinson.

badboy
12-21-2011, 05:03 PM
They also have Babin under contract for the next 4-5 years and Trent Cole through next year.Philly's defense has most observers scratching their heads. They beat Miami and Jets who are not known for offense. I read that there is some consideration of going to the 3-4 next season. Remains to be seen if Juan Castillo has finally gotten D going.

I think Dallas beats them Christmas Eve & Philly wins vs Washington = 7-9 record. Will Andy Reid be allowed to continue? Would Wade Phillips get an offer to be head coach and would he want Mario to be his OLB with Babin on other side?

Texecutioner
12-21-2011, 05:42 PM
Philly's defense has most observers scratching their heads. They beat Miami and Jets who are not known for offense. I read that there is some consideration of going to the 3-4 next season. Remains to be seen if Juan Castillo has finally gotten D going.

I think Dallas beats them Christmas Eve & Philly wins vs Washington = 7-9 record. Will Andy Reid be allowed to continue? Would Wade Phillips get an offer to be head coach and would he want Mario to be his OLB with Babin on other side?

Wade won't get hired in Philly. He'd get torched over there by the fans. He's to soft personality wise, and the fans wouldn't embrace him there. No way that Philly would hire Wade.

He might leave us, but I just don't see Philly making a run at him.

Fox
12-21-2011, 05:51 PM
I would franchise him. See if he can stay healthy for a year, and if he can, what type of numbers he puts up over a full 16 game season in this system. At this point, we could let him walk and see him blow up, or sign him to a monster deal and see him continue to be plagued by injuries and/or surpassed by the other guys on the roster. I'll pay an extra penalty up front to take an extra year to make that decision vs. making the wrong decision right now.

Goldensilence
12-21-2011, 06:04 PM
Philly's defense has most observers scratching their heads. They beat Miami and Jets who are not known for offense. I read that there is some consideration of going to the 3-4 next season. Remains to be seen if Juan Castillo has finally gotten D going.

I think Dallas beats them Christmas Eve & Philly wins vs Washington = 7-9 record. Will Andy Reid be allowed to continue? Would Wade Phillips get an offer to be head coach and would he want Mario to be his OLB with Babin on other side?

I don't think Wade has a certain affinity for Mario, but did see an interesting mix of physical skills that he wanted to try at OLB. With Mario's injury cutting the experiment short, his proven true market value at 4-3 DE. He'll command a hefty salary, but if I am Mario I think I'd like the situation playing across from Pierre-Paul in NY and I think they have the space to swing something.

Far as Reid goes in Philly, I think it's going to be hard for the Eagles to part ways with him. I have a feeling if they do end up at 7-9 Castillo likely gets scape-goated for this season's failure. If they do let Reid go it immediately becomes the best job on the market between the talent they have now and ownership that is aggressive in getting better. I don't think they would go with Phillips. It might be a good enough opening to attract Cowher and/or lure Gruden out of the booth.

IF Phillips does get an offer to return to be a HC, the place that makes mot sense to me is San Diego. Ownership is familiar with him and he built the foundation for their defense years ago. I think it would be prudent for McNair to consider making Phillips one of if not the highest paid coordinator in the league to keep him around.

dalemurphy
12-21-2011, 06:21 PM
This information, I believe was presented in another thread and leaves out that Mario will get 120% of his 2011 salary IF tagged. I expect him to sign a long term deal without the tag being applied. Whether he remains on the roster after that is open for discussion.


Depending on whom you believe, Mario's tag number will be between $17 million and $22 million. HE WILL NOT BE FRANCHISED. He will be re-signed to a monster deal or allowed to walk. Those are the only two viable options.

Titans Sux 72
12-21-2011, 06:41 PM
Franchise him only if we can trade him to a team and get compensation.

If not let his ass walk and spend that money on players that are worth it. Mario has proven for years that he "isn't" worth anywhere close to what he's been paid.

I agree 100%. I have a feeling he is gonna ask for Juluis P money and he aint worth JP money. I only franchise him if we can trade him. If not let him walk.
thank him for his time here and wish him good luck. He is officially labled by me Injury Prone. The proof is in the pood'n! Very good player just brittle since day 1.

Kaiser Toro
12-21-2011, 06:50 PM
Franchise him and "let him play! Let him play! Let him play!"

Hopefully the number is in the 9-10M range - good value with plenty of upside.

Corrosion
12-21-2011, 07:03 PM
I think his franchise number for next season will be between $22m and $23m ..... thats a lotta jack to pay one guy.


The Franchise tag is the average of the top 5 at the position OR the last years salary plus 20% whichever is greater ... MW would most likely fall into the 20% group.

I could be wrong .... but thats the way I understand it.

Titans Sux 72
12-21-2011, 07:06 PM
Franchise him and "let him play! Let him play! Let him play!"

Hopefully the number is in the 9-10M range - good value with plenty of upside.

Where did you get 9-10M range for Mario's franchise number ????
You do realize its in the 18-20M range???

dalemurphy
12-21-2011, 07:08 PM
Franchise him and "let him play! Let him play! Let him play!"

Hopefully the number is in the 9-10M range - good value with plenty of upside.

The number is twice that which means franchising him is a practical impossibility.

dalemurphy
12-21-2011, 07:10 PM
Where did you get 9-10M range for Mario's franchise number ????
You do realize its in the 18-20M range???

His salary figure this year is somewhere between $14 and $18 million. Any player that is franchised is guaranteed a 20% raise.