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Mean Machine
02-01-2012, 03:28 PM
What are the possibilities for the Texans to free up salary cap space with some restructuring current long term players under contract in order to sign our most important free agents:
Mario Williams
Arain Foster
Chris Myers
Mike brisiel
Joel Dreesen

I know we have several under long term contracts:
Andre Johnson thru 2017
Demeco Ryans thru 2016
Antonio Smith thru 2014
Kevin Walter thru 2015
Owen Daniels thru 2014
Kareem Jackson thru 2015
Jacoby Jones thru 2013
Johnathan Joseph thru 2016
Eric Winston thru 2013

I'm just not a capologist and have no idea how we can make it happen.

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 03:30 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89116

NastyNate
02-01-2012, 03:38 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89116

I'm just not a capologist and have no idea how we can make it happen.

I don't think that really helps to answer the question at hand. I am not very versed in capology either, would be interesting to hear how a GM and player go about re-structuring for less cap hit.

Mean Machine
02-01-2012, 03:46 PM
That's the deal, are there ways we can front load Andre Johnson's contract now, so we can have more for salary cap today?

I've heard of this before, but is this even possible with the new CBA?

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 03:52 PM
What are the possibilities for the Texans to free up salary cap space with some restructuring current long term players under contract in order to sign our most important free agents:
Mario Williams
Arain Foster
Chris Myers
Mike brisiel
Joel Dreesen

I know we have several under long term contracts:
Andre Johnson thru 2017
Demeco Ryans thru 2016
Antonio Smith thru 2014
Kevin Walter thru 2015
Owen Daniels thru 2014
Kareem Jackson thru 2015
Jacoby Jones thru 2013
Johnathan Joseph thru 2016
Eric Winston thru 2013

I'm just not a capologist and have no idea how we can make it happen.


Extending Schaub's deal is the most likely solution to save a few million this season. Of course, his lisfranc injury complicates that option.

ArlingtonTexan
02-01-2012, 03:59 PM
That's the deal, are there ways we can front load Andre Johnson's contract now, so we can have more for salary cap today?

I've heard of this before, but is this even possible with the new CBA?

They restrcutred a couple of guys before last season if I am not mistaken. Overall, I think the trouble capwise if you are constantly doing the restructures because a team is essentially using it credit cards.

IDEXAN
02-01-2012, 04:15 PM
They restrcutred a couple of guys before last season if I am not mistaken. Overall, I think the trouble capwise if you are constantly doing the restructures because a team is essentially using it credit cards.
Exactly. It's kinda comparable to what's going on with the countrys finances right now which is we can only defer our obligations so long until they come due.

False Start
02-01-2012, 04:18 PM
delete.

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 04:29 PM
I don't think that really helps to answer the question at hand. I am not very versed in capology either, would be interesting to hear how a GM and player go about re-structuring for less cap hit.

It's an entire thread about salaries that is based on speculation and second hand reports of each player's contract. I don't think there is much else to add, except that if you want to shuffle around some dollars there's a good place to start with salary estimates. It also details the available caproom and some contracts that can be cut to save money like JJ and Lienart. If the OP wants to throw out some numbers, that thread has sufficient info to start with.

If you want some examples of moving money or structuring deals to help relieve caproom in one year, look at the Jets last year. They are going to be in cap hell in 2012 due to all their shuffling trying to get Aso. Holmes made about 3 mill last year, but will get 9 mill this year and 12.5 the next. Cromartie got 2.2 mill, but will get 5 in 2012 and 8 in 2013. Just check out some of their contracts and see if that's the position you would like to see the Texans in next year:

www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/

DocBar
02-01-2012, 04:39 PM
Everyone seems to be focusing in on Mario and this years FA's. What about the FA's after the 2012 season? The Texans are already on the brink of being in cap hell and it's not all a bunch of funny money that can be swept under a contractual rug.
As far as restructuring goes, the length of the contract is not nearly as important as the gauranteed money.

NastyNate
02-01-2012, 05:48 PM
It's an entire thread about salaries that is based on speculation and second hand reports of each player's contract. I don't think there is much else to add, except that if you want to shuffle around some dollars there's a good place to start with salary estimates. It also details the available caproom and some contracts that can be cut to save money like JJ and Lienart. If the OP wants to throw out some numbers, that thread has sufficient info to start with.

If you want some examples of moving money or structuring deals to help relieve caproom in one year, look at the Jets last year. They are going to be in cap hell in 2012 due to all their shuffling trying to get Aso. Holmes made about 3 mill last year, but will get 9 mill this year and 12.5 the next. Cromartie got 2.2 mill, but will get 5 in 2012 and 8 in 2013. Just check out some of their contracts and see if that's the position you would like to see the Texans in next year:

www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/

Yes I have picked through that thread as well, very informative. I don't think I'm delineating my point very well, I'll try and figure out a way to better voice my question.

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 06:29 PM
Yes I have picked through that thread as well, very informative. I don't think I'm delineating my point very well, I'll try and figure out a way to better voice my question.

Well, I re-read the post, and I think I know what you're asking for. As far as restructuring goes, anything is on the table except signing bonuses. If a hypothetical player makes 5, 6, 7, 8, mill a year over 4 years for a total of 26 million, a GM can meet with his agent and move that money around. They can change things like the amount of guaranteed money as an incentive to make them shift that salary. So you could wind up with a 2, 11, 3, 10 setup instead because the team needs extra money in the first and third years.

The issue with doing this though is that the GM and player/agent must agree on the deal. Suppose in that example there were no other bonuses or signing bonuses and the guaranteed money was 13 million (half the contract). The player would not go for this restructured deal because he could be cut outright after year 2 of the restructure, whereas in the original contract he would have been paid 2 million if he was cut in that year. But it also gives him a chance to earn 7 million in the old deal, instead of 3 million. It's not a good deal for the player in that case.

It's a give and take, but not uncommon. The hypothetical player in this case would probably go for the restructure if the GM guarantees that 3 million in year 3. That would increase the overall guaranteed money to 16 million without increasing the cap hit overall. Not a bad deal if they are willing to pay him an average of 6.5 mill a year anyways. But that's one way to look at things.

badboy
02-01-2012, 07:48 PM
Usually, reworking a contract offers the player money up front to allow the re-negotiating. I think the approach should be to focus on the FAs both our own and new guys and backloading the deals. Money up front pleases the player and high total contract benefits the agent. The new TV contract offers big money that can be used to offer big dollars in 2013 and beyond.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 08:47 PM
Everyone seems to be focusing in on Mario and this years FA's. What about the FA's after the 2012 season? The Texans are already on the brink of being in cap hell and it's not all a bunch of funny money that can be swept under a contractual rug.
As far as restructuring goes, the length of the contract is not nearly as important as the gauranteed money.

Are you sure? Sometimes, we confuse "guaranteed money" with signing bonus. Neither of which is really as important as the cap number. They, of course, make up the cap number based on the structure of the contract.

But in & of itself, guaranteed money isn't any more relevant than the length of the contract (I don't think).

b0ng
02-01-2012, 08:51 PM
Are you sure? Sometimes, we confuse "guaranteed money" with signing bonus. Neither of which is really as important as the cap number. They, of course, make up the cap number based on the structure of the contract.

But in & of itself, guaranteed money isn't any more relevant than the length of the contract (I don't think).

guaranteed money is the money that player will get no matter what. Break a leg serious enough for it to be career ending? Still get the guaranteed money. Get cut cause you blow donkey balls on the field? Still get the guaranteed money.

Players re-structure, sign extensions and get cut all the time, which is why the length of the contract is sort of negligible in comparison to how much guaranteed compensation they will get no matter what happens.

DocBar
02-01-2012, 09:16 PM
guaranteed money is the money that player will get no matter what. Break a leg serious enough for it to be career ending? Still get the guaranteed money. Get cut cause you blow donkey balls on the field? Still get the guaranteed money.

Players re-structure, sign extensions and get cut all the time, which is why the length of the contract is sort of negligible in comparison to how much guaranteed compensation they will get no matter what happens.

The amount of gauranteed money will likely be the difference between resigning MW and him walking. Would you risk $50+ mil gauranteed on a player with a considerable history of injury?

b0ng
02-01-2012, 10:28 PM
The amount of gauranteed money will likely be the difference between resigning MW and him walking. Would you risk $50+ mil gauranteed on a player with a considerable history of injury?

Going to have to define "considerable injury history" unless 1 early season injury makes any player injury prone (sorry Daryl Sharpton, Owen Daniels, Roc Carmichael, and others).

NastyNate
02-01-2012, 10:50 PM
Well, I re-read the post, and I think I know what you're asking for. As far as restructuring goes, anything is on the table except signing bonuses. If a hypothetical player makes 5, 6, 7, 8, mill a year over 4 years for a total of 26 million, a GM can meet with his agent and move that money around. They can change things like the amount of guaranteed money as an incentive to make them shift that salary. So you could wind up with a 2, 11, 3, 10 setup instead because the team needs extra money in the first and third years.

The issue with doing this though is that the GM and player/agent must agree on the deal. Suppose in that example there were no other bonuses or signing bonuses and the guaranteed money was 13 million (half the contract). The player would not go for this restructured deal because he could be cut outright after year 2 of the restructure, whereas in the original contract he would have been paid 2 million if he was cut in that year. But it also gives him a chance to earn 7 million in the old deal, instead of 3 million. It's not a good deal for the player in that case.

It's a give and take, but not uncommon. The hypothetical player in this case would probably go for the restructure if the GM guarantees that 3 million in year 3. That would increase the overall guaranteed money to 16 million without increasing the cap hit overall. Not a bad deal if they are willing to pay him an average of 6.5 mill a year anyways. But that's one way to look at things.

There ya go, exactly what I was looking for.

Andrew6
02-01-2012, 11:01 PM
What are the possibilities for the Texans to free up salary cap space with some restructuring current long term players under contract in order to sign our most important free agents:
Mario Williams
Arain Foster
Chris Myers
Mike brisiel
Joel Dreesen

I know we have several under long term contracts:
Andre Johnson thru 2017
Demeco Ryans thru 2016
Antonio Smith thru 2014
Kevin Walter thru 2015
Owen Daniels thru 2014
Kareem Jackson thru 2015
Jacoby Jones thru 2013 WHY, trade???
Johnathan Joseph thru 2016
Eric Winston thru 2013

I'm just not a capologist and have no idea how we can make it happen.

:kubepalm:

Marcus
02-01-2012, 11:14 PM
Going to have to define "considerable injury history" unless 1 early season injury makes any player injury prone (sorry Daryl Sharpton, Owen Daniels, Roc Carmichael, and others).

If your on the side of letting Mario walk instead of signing him long term, you're going to put the injury-prone label on him to validate your case. Way too convenient.

Schaub was "injury-prone" a couple of years ago, until he proved to most that he was a good QB. But now that he's out with a Lisfranc injury, where's the injury-prone label now?

Instead of putting the injury-prone label on Mario, cut the bull**** and just say he's not that good of a player.

Carr Bombed
02-01-2012, 11:22 PM
If your on the side of letting Mario walk instead of signing him long term, you're going to put the injury-prone label on him to validate your case. Way too convenient.

Schaub was "injury-prone" a couple of years ago, until he proved to most that he was a good QB. But now that he's out with a Lisfranc injury, where's the injury-prone label now?

Instead of putting the injury-prone label on Mario, cut the bull**** and just say he's not that good of a player.

Saying that Mario is "injury prone" is not bull****... It's called the truth and frankly I don't see how anybody can say he's not "injury prone".

BTW.. Schaub is "injury prone" also.

Carr Bombed
02-01-2012, 11:26 PM
Going to have to define "considerable injury history" unless 1 early season injury makes any player injury prone (sorry Daryl Sharpton, Owen Daniels, Roc Carmichael, and others).

How about being injured just about every single season that you've been in the league. Does that suffice?


Mario has a knack for picking up nagging injuries, this is just the first time he caught a injury that knocked him out for a large amount of time.

He's been injured all the way from his toes up to his shoulders. So even if we ignore the fact that we don't need him and don't need to blow a boat load of cash on him, we don't need to ignore the fact that he gets knicked up every year.

Marcus
02-01-2012, 11:27 PM
Saying that Mario is "injury prone" is not bull****... It's called the truth and frankly I don't see how anybody can say he's not "injury prone".

BTW.. Schaub is "injury prone" also.

Then everyone else on the team who got injured is "injury prone".

Carr Bombed
02-01-2012, 11:32 PM
Then everyone else on the team who got injured is "injury prone".

No they're not. Just because you get a injury, that doesn't make you "injury prone". Frankly that's silly.

The definition of being "injury prone" is a player that constantly picks up various injuries year in and year out. Now what has happened to Mario? When is the last time Mario has made it through a season or had a season where he wasn't battling a injury? Just because he has been a tough SOB and has played through a lot of injuries doesn't mean he's not "injury prone". Hell one year he couldn't even practice and was on bed rest through the week. This season he finally picked up a injury that he couldn't play through and that's the difference...still another injury though.

Mario Williams IS injury prone.

And if AJ doesn't get over the leg injuries next season, I'll put him in the same class if he's not there already. The only benefit of the doubt I can make for him is everybody had hammy issues, so hopefully it's a training issue and not something he's naturally susceptible to.

b0ng
02-02-2012, 12:11 AM
How about being injured just about every single season that you've been in the league. Does that suffice?


Mario has a knack for picking up nagging injuries, this is just the first time he caught a injury that knocked him out for a large amount of time.

He's been injured all the way from his toes up to his shoulders. So even if we ignore the fact that we don't need him and don't need to blow a boat load of cash on him, he don't need to ignore the fact that he gets knicked up every year.

You're exaggerating to make your point, and it's a pretty crappy point to boot. If you wanted to bring up whether he produces enough to warrant a gazillion dollar contract, that is a good and debatable point that can be intelligently argued. Instead you trot out this tired, half thought out idea that he's injury prone when he basically started every game from 2005 until 2010. He's played through various injuries (Which, if I'm not mistaken almost every other player in the NFL has done this) and it has been used to reason why he had low production in 2006 and 2010. Being injury prone means you're absent from a lot of games, and that my friend, is not something that Mario Williams does. Sorry but you can do better than that CB.

Carr Bombed
02-02-2012, 12:19 AM
You're exaggerating to make your point, and it's a pretty crappy point to boot. If you wanted to bring up whether he produces enough to warrant a gazillion dollar contract, that is a good and debatable point that can be intelligently argued. Instead you trot out this tired, half thought out idea that he's injury prone when he basically started every game from 2005 until 2010. He's played through various injuries (Which, if I'm not mistaken almost every other player in the NFL has done this) and it has been used to reason why he had low production in 2006 and 2010. Being injury prone means you're absent from a lot of games, and that my friend, is not something that Mario Williams does. Sorry but you can do better than that CB.

Umm no. A crappy point would be trying to live in denial and argue that Mario Williams is not injury prone, when he is. That is a sad, tired, and half thought out attempt to prove another point...your point

Being "injury prone" doesn't mean you have to miss games. Players play injured..yes that's true, but players don't have to play with the type of injuries that he's had every single year. The dude IS injury prone and that's not some "crappy point" it's my opinion and the opinion of many others. Just because you may have a different opinion or a different definition of what "injury prone" is to you..doesnt mean your argument is any smarter. :rolleyes: You've been a homer for this guy since day one (as far as his worth to this team), while I've been objective.

First you said our defense couldn't produce at the same level without him...I said it could and was right. Now you're on this trip down DeNile where you want to act like the guy doesn't have a knack for picking up injuries that he has to battle through all season long and usually every single season... and not only that, you want to insult other people while doing it. Frankly it's ridiculous. If you want to act like the guy isn't prone to picking up injuries..then by all means go ahead, but don't try to insult me just because I don't want to take that boat trip down the river with you.

b0ng
02-02-2012, 12:31 AM
Umm no. A crappy point would be trying to live in denial and argue that Mario Williams is not injury prone, when he is. That is a sad, tired, and half thought out attempt to prove another point...your point

Being "injury prone" doesn't mean you have to miss games. Players play injured..yes that's true, but players don't have to play with the type of injuries that he's had every single year. The dude IS injury prone and that's not some "crappy point" it's my opinion and the opinion of many otherus. Just because you may have a different opinion or a different definition of what "injury prone" is to you..doesnt mean your argument is any smarter. :rolleyes: You've been a homer for this guy since day one, while I've been objective.

First you said our defense couldn't produce at the same level without him...I said it could and was right. Now you're on this trip down DeNile where you want to act like the guy doesn't have a knack for picking up injuries that he has to battle through all season long and usually every single season... and not only that, you want to insult other people while doing it. Frankly it's ridiculous.

Numbers back me up here though, 50+ games started before his herniation in 2010. He gets nicked up throughout the.season, just like most NFL players, but there are many who want to.blow these up into gigantic reasons we should just let him go without an offer (or at least that's how they make it sound).

Just tell the truth for once CB. You ,don't want Mario here because he doesn't produce enough to warrant a pay raise. Don't hide behind an easy to use yet fairly wrong label.

Carr Bombed
02-02-2012, 12:35 AM
Numbers back me up here though, 50+ games started before his herniation in 2010. He gets nicked up throughout the.season, just like most NFL players, but there are many who want to.blow these up into gigantic reasons we should just let him go without an offer (or at least that's how they make it sound).

Just tell the truth for once CB. You ,don't want Mario here because he doesn't produce enough to warrant a pay raise. Don't hide behind an easy to use yet fairly wrong label.

LMAO.. :kubepalm: Now you're going to try to tell me want I'm thinking. Oh lord and it just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

cbs1507
02-02-2012, 12:54 AM
The amount of gauranteed money will likely be the difference between resigning MW and him walking. Would you risk $50+ mil gauranteed on a player with a considerable history of injury?

If you look at the contracts for elite pass rushers the guaranteed portions range from $30-$40 million. I don't know where you got $50+ million guaranteed from. That's unheard of. Sam Bradford has the most guaranteed money in NFL history at $50 million, so it might be reach to assume he's getting that type of guaranteed in free agency (especially when you consider what elite pass rushers make).

Corrosion
02-02-2012, 01:07 AM
What are the possibilities for the Texans to free up salary cap space with some restructuring current long term players under contract in order to sign our most important free agents:
Mario Williams
Arain Foster
Chris Myers
Mike brisiel
Joel Dreesen

I know we have several under long term contracts:
Andre Johnson thru 2017
Demeco Ryans thru 2016
Antonio Smith thru 2014
Kevin Walter thru 2015
Owen Daniels thru 2014
Kareem Jackson thru 2015
Jacoby Jones thru 2013
Johnathan Joseph thru 2016
Eric Winston thru 2013

I'm just not a capologist and have no idea how we can make it happen.

Ive said before that I expect Jacoby Jones and Matt Lienart to be cut as well as Demeco Ryans having his contract restructured.

Jacoby costs them $3m if he's on the roster and has no guaranteed money remaining on his deal. To cut him saves $3m with no consequences against the cap. They can get a rookie to replace his production at considerably less salary even if its their first round pick there is savings here.

Ryans will cost about $8.5m in salary , pro-rated signing bonus and incentives. Thats just too much. I believe he's one of if not the prime target to restructure.

Leinart has a deal for ~$5.5 over two seasons with $3.75m in guarantees , not sure what portion of that guaranteed money he got last season but its probably safe to assume that it was the majority of the guaranteed money in the first year.


Looking at Mario Williams numbers from last year - He cost them $17.6m in cap space. (Dont care what you've read elsewhere , this is the factual number) The original deal gave the team a lot of manuverability early in his contract but the final year became a balloon payment for the most part.

Even if the Texans resign MW he will not cost them near that $17.6m total in the 2012 season. Its more likely they get him in the $9-11m range which leaves them ample room to deal with Foster , Myers , Dreesen and Briesel .... Unless some team throws stupid money at him , he'll be a Texan in 2012.

Ask yourself what team wants to sign a guy to a longterm deal for above that amount who has had season ending injuries in back to back years ?


Its not doomsday as many like to make you believe .... With a few shrewd moves , the Texans can deal with each of their FA's as well as have cap space remaining for other upgrades be they thru the draft or FA.

People also have to consider that in 2013 & 2014 the cap is expected to increase considerably , possibly as high as $180m in 2013 and an estimated $200m+ in 2014 as the new TV deals kick in. Teams can backload contracts twards those seasons , not only for their current FA's but those players they may seek to restructure.

The Texans spent $118m last season. In contrast - Dallas spent $136.6 million and Carolina $73m.

DocBar
02-02-2012, 06:21 AM
If you look at the contracts for elite pass rushers the guaranteed portions range from $30-$40 million. I don't know where you got $50+ million guaranteed from. That's unheard of. Sam Bradford has the most guaranteed money in NFL history at $50 million, so it might be reach to assume he's getting that type of guaranteed in free agency (especially when you consider what elite pass rushers make).Just going off of Pepper's contract with the Bears and throwing an extra $8 mil in gauranteed money. It's a completely hypothetical situation. We need to get MW to sign as long term a contract as possible to keep his cap hit low for the next couple of years.

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 07:22 AM
delete...

TimeKiller
02-02-2012, 08:36 AM
Here's an easy way to have the money to resign the free agents:

Let Mario Williams walk.







Ta-Da!!!!!!

b0ng
02-02-2012, 09:32 AM
Here's an easy way to have the money to resign the free agents:

Let Mario Williams walk.







Ta-Da!!!!!!

We should let any player who is in line for a payday walk. We'll call ourselves the Buccaneers, it will be glorious.

Marcus
02-02-2012, 11:01 AM
Numbers back me up here though, 50+ games started before his herniation in 2010. He gets nicked up throughout the.season, just like most NFL players, but there are many who want to.blow these up into gigantic reasons we should just let him go without an offer (or at least that's how they make it sound).

Just tell the truth for once CB. You ,don't want Mario here because he doesn't produce enough to warrant a pay raise. Don't hide behind an easy to use yet fairly wrong label.

Did you notice that WE are homers, while HE is "objective"? :spit:

Blake
02-02-2012, 11:55 AM
For those that say Mario is injury prone, can you back that up with factual information? I would like to see where Mario was injured and unable to perform besides 3 games last year, and this season.

I dont care if you use his Texans history, NCSTATE history, high school football history, just show me how he is injury prone rather than just saying he is injury prone.

Blake
02-02-2012, 12:42 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/33773/deacon-jones-texans-cant-let-mario-go

Deacon Jones
“I said that and I see you got your [tape recorder] out,” he said. “Well I am the best, there ain’t no damn question about that. I don’t know who No. 2 is. I’ll say he is potentially. He potentially can be the best in his era. He has the ability, he has the size, and all he needs is to get his head straight and make that commitment.

“They’d be stupid to let him go. He’s the No. 1 pick. Sure he’s had some injures. Everybody gets injuries. You can’t let a guy like that go. He’s a hell of a football player. If they do let him go, come to the Rams. Tell him don’t do nothing until he comes to the Rams.”

Rey
02-02-2012, 12:49 PM
Exactly. It's kinda comparable to what's going on with the countrys finances right now which is we can only defer our obligations so long until they come due.

Not really.

You can cut a player and save money towards your cap sometimes.

Mean Machine
02-02-2012, 02:17 PM
Corrosion,
I like your thoughts and your numbers.
Great news about back loading contracts whent he salary cap rises substantially in 2013 and beyond.
It jstt seems like we are out on a limb with all of this, but my guess is, a vast portion of the NFL is in the same situation.

And even though this thread sorta went off the tracks with the injury prone tangent, I do think we need to keep Mario.

DocBar
02-02-2012, 03:29 PM
For those that say Mario is injury prone, can you back that up with factual information? I would like to see where Mario was injured and unable to perform besides 3 games last year, and this season.

I dont care if you use his Texans history, NCSTATE history, high school football history, just show me how he is injury prone rather than just saying he is injury prone.He's had injuries that have affected his play in almost every season. He had plantar fasciitis his rookie year, groin pulls, sports hernias that required offseason surgery, torn pec this season. He played through most of the injuries and while that's commendable and shows toughness, etc. it does affect his ability to perform on the field at a high level. These are well known injuries, not something conjured up to bash him.

Marcus
02-02-2012, 03:46 PM
He's had injuries that have affected his play in almost every season. He had plantar fasciitis his rookie year, groin pulls, sports hernias that required offseason surgery, torn pec this season. He played through most of the injuries and while that's commendable and shows toughness, etc. it does affect his ability to perform on the field at a high level. These are well known injuries, not something conjured up to bash him.

Then why do you persist in using his injuries as a reason not to sign him, when he doesn't get any more nicked up than any other player?

Just come out and say that you don't want to re-sign him because you don't think he's a good enough player to be paid the amount it would take to keep him.

Mr teX
02-02-2012, 04:02 PM
He's had injuries that have affected his play in almost every season. He had plantar fasciitis his rookie year, groin pulls, sports hernias that required offseason surgery, torn pec this season. He played through most of the injuries and while that's commendable and shows toughness, etc. it does affect his ability to perform on the field at a high level. These are well known injuries, not something conjured up to bash him.

& just like you guys can misuse the injury prone label, proponents of mario can look at his production & say that he's still performed damn good despite those setbacks.....& with trash teammates & coaches around him to boot.

DocBar
02-02-2012, 04:17 PM
Then why do you persist in using his injuries as a reason not to sign him, when he doesn't get any more nicked up than any other player?

Just come out and say that you don't want to re-sign him because you don't think he's a good enough player to be paid the amount it would take to keep him.I use his injury history in conjunction with him not being an elite, consistent game-changing player to attempt to drive home the point that signing him to a big contract is not a very good idea.
I think Mario is a quality player, but not on the level that some on this forum and the national media put him on.

& just like you guys can misuse the injury prone label, proponents of mario can look at his production & say that he's still performed damn good despite those setbacks.....& with trash teammates & coaches around him to boot.I say he's performed damn good....sometimes. Most of the time, he's been fairly pedestrian to slightly above average. He sure looked like he was going to change my mind on that this season. Then he got hurt. Again.
Mario has had double digit sacks twice in his career. Don't make it out like he's the 2nd coming of Reggie White.

thunderkyss
02-02-2012, 05:24 PM
Jacoby costs them $3m if he's on the roster and has no guaranteed money remaining on his deal. To cut him saves $3m with no consequences against the cap.

I haven't seen anything to support this. He's guaranteed $3M over a 3 year period. But he was paid less than $700K last season.

He may only cost $1.7M towards the 2012 cap, unless we cut him, which would put $2.5M (or something) of dead money on the books. It may be cheaper to keep him, we don't know as the reports of his contract hasn't been published with any detail.

Dutchrudder
02-02-2012, 06:32 PM
I haven't seen anything to support this. He's guaranteed $3M over a 3 year period. But he was paid less than $700K last season.

He may only cost $1.7M towards the 2012 cap, unless we cut him, which would put $2.5M (or something) of dead money on the books. It may be cheaper to keep him, we don't know as the reports of his contract hasn't been published with any detail.

I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.

Coming off a 2010 season where he set career-highs with 51 receptions for 562 yards, and a two-year total of nine touchdown receptions, the Texans re-signed Jones to a three-year, $10.5 million contract on July 30. Jones' contract included $3.5 million in guarantees -- his $1.5 million signing bonus and $2 million base salary -- with $7 million in base salary over the final two seasons.

http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012/01/as-expected-jacoby-jones-taking-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.

cbs1507
02-02-2012, 06:56 PM
I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.



http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012/01/as-expected-jacoby-jones-taking-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.

"An Independent Football News Outlet"? I do not even know if that source is credible or not. I've seen sources that say otherwise.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/jacoby-jones/

Logically it does not makes sense to pay someone their guaranteed money in 1 season. Your source says he got a $1.5 million signing bonus (only $500k counted towards cap last season). With an alleged $2 million base salary, he would already have $2.5 million of his $3.5 million guaranteed counted against the cap after 1 season (with $1 million of the prorated bonus left). You have to actually go back and look at his production over the past 2 seasons prior to 2011. He was consistent, but not worthy of $3.5 million in one season. I find it more reasonable to believe the source that says he had a $450k base salary last year with a $450k signing bonus (prorated at $150k per year) for a cap hit of $600k. Those numbers are more inline with his actual production over the past 3 seasons.

thunderkyss
02-02-2012, 06:57 PM
I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.



http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012/01/as-expected-jacoby-jones-taking-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.

Your numbers make more sense.... I was going by what was posted in the "Jacoby's gotta go" thread
Well his cap hit was $600k. That included the signing bonus of $450k, which was prorated at $150k per year. That's where the $600k figure came from ($450k base salary + $150k prorated signing bonus= $600k cap hit).

Jacoby's contract details (minus the extra technical stuff)
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/jacoby-jones/

Dutchrudder
02-02-2012, 07:22 PM
"An Independent Football News Outlet"? I do not even know if that source is credible or not. I've seen sources that say otherwise.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/jacoby-jones/

Logically it does not makes sense to pay someone their guaranteed money in 1 season. Your source says he got a $1.5 million signing bonus (only $500k counted towards cap last season). With an alleged $2 million base salary, he would already have $2.5 million of his $3.5 million guaranteed counted against the cap after 1 season (with $1 million of the prorated bonus left). You have to actually go back and look at his production over the past 2 seasons prior to 2011. He was consistent, but not worthy of $3.5 million in one season. I find it more reasonable to believe the source that says he had a $450k base salary last year with a $450k signing bonus (prorated at $150k per year) for a cap hit of $600k. Those numbers are more inline with his actual production over the past 3 seasons.

That makes no sense at all. With that premise, you're telling me that JJ is set to earn 9.9 million over the next two years then. There's just no way the numbers work out like that, as it would put the Texans in a bind this year due to the 2.9 million guaranteed on the remaining contract. I think sporttrac is wrong, and I haven't seen any other site list him at those numbers. Also, given that they only show a salary for that one year and not the other two leads me to think it's a mistake or unsubstantiated. Got any other sources that say he earned 700k or so last year?

cbs1507
02-02-2012, 07:28 PM
That makes no sense at all. With that premise, you're telling me that JJ is set to earn 9.9 million over the next two years then. There's just no way the numbers work out like that, as it would put the Texans in a bind this year due to the 2.9 million guaranteed on the remaining contract. I think sporttrac is wrong, and I haven't seen any other site list him at those numbers. Also, given that they only show a salary for that one year and not the other two leads me to think it's a mistake or unsubstantiated. Got any other sources that say he earned 700k or so last year?

No, but that's the only one I've seen that says he earned $2.5 million. Every other source just says the contract length and the guaranteed figure.

From that source I was under the impression that the money left over from his guaranteed figure would be accumulated over the next 2 seasons and that he could earn the unguarded portion ($7.5 million) through incentives.

IMO $3.5 million seems like alot to to pay him for 1 season if you look at his production over the 2 seasons prior to 2011.

http://www.nfl.com/player/jacobyjones/2495651/profile

He made about $750k in 2010. You have to wonder what made his market value shoot up to $3.5 million in 1 season? He was consistent, but his numbers were only decent as a 4th or 5th option. But why invest that much in a 4th or 5th option? I'm not saying your source is wrong. Nobody knows the actual details of the contracts.

Dutchrudder
02-02-2012, 07:48 PM
No, but that's the only one I've seen that says he earned $2.5 million. Every other source just says the contract length and the guaranteed figure.

From that source I was under the impression that the money left over from his guaranteed figure would be accumulated over the next 2 seasons and that he could earn the unguarded portion ($7.5 million) through incentives.

IMO $3.5 million seems like alot to to pay him for 1 season if you look at his production over the 2 seasons prior to 2011.

http://www.nfl.com/player/jacobyjones/2495651/profile

He made about $750k in 2010. You have to wonder what made his market value shoot up to $3.5 million in 1 season? He was consistent, but his numbers were only decent as a 4th or 5th option. But why invest that much in a 4th or 5th option? I'm not saying your source is wrong. Nobody knows the actual details of the contracts.

Well he got more money because he was no longer on his rookie contract. 3.5 million a year is about the going rate for #3 receiving options around the league. Guys like Lance Moore, Plax, Steve Smith (PHI) all got similar money to be that kind of guy on their teams in the last round of free agency. I don't think a 2-3 mill base salary is outlandish for him.

Corrosion
02-02-2012, 07:57 PM
"An Independent Football News Outlet"? I do not even know if that source is credible or not. I've seen sources that say otherwise.



What is this .... Clutchfans ? Selectively discrediting sources .... Dutch provided a link to back up what he said.

According to his source -

his $1.5 million signing bonus and $2 million base salary -- with $7 million in base salary over the final two seasons

That would mean it would cost $1m to cut Jones as opposed to $3.5m to keep him since the bonuses are pro-rated over the length of the contract.
His production could be replaced for a third of the cost making it appealing to eat that signing bonus money.

Carr Bombed
02-02-2012, 10:18 PM
Did you notice that WE are homers, while HE is "objective"? :spit:

Are you a mouse that takes up residence in Bong's pocket? Or do you just feel left out?

badboy
02-02-2012, 10:46 PM
I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.



http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012/01/as-expected-jacoby-jones-taking-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.The info from macsfootballblog are what I remember when JJ re-signed and I think it was from Houston paper. I reall $10.5 over 3 years with a small guarantee. I would cut him.

Corrosion
02-02-2012, 11:50 PM
The info from macsfootballblog are what I remember when JJ re-signed and I think it was from Houston paper. I reall $10.5 over 3 years with a small guarantee. I would cut him.

Its going to come down to how much they can save in the process .... We have such conflicting numbers from multiple sources much like MW's cap figure , everyone wants to make up a number and plug it in ....


What we do know is he signed a 3 year deal worth $10.5m - $1.5m in signing bonus and a total of $3.5m in guarantee's.

What it boils down to is how much guaranteed money aside from the signing bonus remains to be paid. If that number is minimal , and they can save ~$2m total by cutting him , I expect him to be gone as they could replace his production at a substantial discount with a draft pick , even one taken late in the first round ..... and they pick 26th. That player is likely to cost them in the neighborhood of ~$1.2m which is less than half Jacoby Jones salary.

ObsiWan
02-03-2012, 01:01 AM
Saying that Mario is "injury prone" is not bull****... It's called the truth and frankly I don't see how anybody can say he's not "injury prone".

BTW.. Schaub is "injury prone" also.

Then so is Andre Johnson.
of his 9 NFL seasons he's only played all 16 games in five of them.

Mario has played in (and started) all 16 games in four out of his six seasons in the league.

If we're dumping people because they're "injury prone" then Andre and Schaub should go before Mario.

Carr Bombed
02-03-2012, 01:03 AM
Then so is Andre Johnson.
of his 9 NFL seasons he's only played all 16 games in five of them.

Mario has played in (and started) all 16 games in four out of his six seasons in the league.

If we're dumping people because they're "injury prone" then Andre and Schaub should go before Mario.

I'll already mentioned those two players... So what's your point?


And will people please get off of...games missed. This is about INJURIES SUSTAINED. Hence, injury prone.

Rey
02-03-2012, 01:30 AM
I don't care if mario is injury prone. He's been a good pass rusher and he's good against the run. Overall he's a top tier player and just like everyone else improved under wade I expect mario to do the same. We've had guys everywhere on that defense with bad or mediocre seasons. We attribute that to bad coaching. The scheme sucked. Well through all of that, through all his injuries mario has been a good and sometimes great player. He has been a victim of bad coaching too. Now he finally gets a real d coordinator and was looking awesome. Was having his best year. Its like some of you have selective memory. Not sure why mario is being looked at as the same de that played for richard smith and frank bush when wade clearly has guys playing at a higher level. And its not likw mario sucked back then. On a bad defense he was still a good player. In wades defense he should be even better. At least that's what makes sense to me.

1bigfan13
02-03-2012, 01:44 AM
Here's my take on Williams. Has he been banged up some over the past couple of seasons? Absolutely.

But I wouldn't label him injury prone. He's still a young guy who's just entering the prime years of his career.

If there is a way to resign him without wrecking the cap for future years, I'm all for bringing him back. He's a playmaker in the front 7 and you can never have too many guys like that. See the NY Giants. That NY defense pretty much shutdown 2 of the NFC's top QBs (Ryan and Rodgers) on their way to the Super Bowl.

My gut tells me that some team that runs a 4-3 will offer him a larger contract than the Texans are willing to pay. I'm pretty sure Mario prefers playing DE rather than standing up as an OLB. The extra money plus the chance to play the position he's comfortable with will probably be too much to pass up.

We'll see in a little over a month.

dalemurphy
02-03-2012, 01:44 AM
Then so is Andre Johnson.
of his 9 NFL seasons he's only played all 16 games in five of them.

Mario has played in (and started) all 16 games in four out of his six seasons in the league.

If we're dumping people because they're "injury prone" then Andre and Schaub should go before Mario.

Well, I'm sure that will be a conversation when Schaub's contract is due after next season.

Andre is signed for 5 more years, so it's a moot point. If he was hitting free agency, you'd better belief that his health would be an issue.

ObsiWan
02-03-2012, 01:56 AM
I'll already mentioned those two players... So what's your point?


And will people please get off of...games missed. This is about INJURIES SUSTAINED. Hence, injury prone.

Okay... but if you use injuries sustained the picture gets worse, especially concerning Schaub.
...remember when Schaub slipped going out of bounds in '09 during the first game (maybe it was the final preseason game)? He twisted his ankle and everyone thought, "crap, here we go again"; but, to his credit, he played the entire season. Still, injury sustained.

Point is that most everyone plays hurt at some time or another. Antonio Smith played most of the year with a bad shoulder. DeMeco played hurt most of '09. A.J. has played thru injuries even before his hammy(s) took him down this year. O.D. has had various nicks (like his hand this year) and knee the year before) that have impacted his play. It's when those injuries make players miss games that those "nicks" become an issue. Like Bob Sanders - he was off the field more than he was on.

You have your definition of "injury prone", mine is when those injuries take you out of multiple games.

Blake
02-03-2012, 08:46 AM
I feel that CB and others wouldnt feel our players are so injury prone if they werent Texans fans who obsesses over every bone bruise or sprain.

I have a feeling that every fan base feels that their players are injury prone. I mean they/we read articles when their player sneezes too hard.

thunderkyss
02-03-2012, 12:32 PM
Okay... but if you use injuries sustained the picture gets worse, especially concerning Schaub.
...remember when Schaub slipped going out of bounds in '09 during the first game (maybe it was the final preseason game)? He twisted his ankle and everyone thought, "crap, here we go again"; but, to his credit, he played the entire season. Still, injury sustained.


& that injury, more so than Myers rag doll imitation, cost us that Jets game. We were getting dominated at the line, because Matt couldn't move. No bootlegs, no moving pocket, just chuck & duck. Ryan new it & came after him.

Carr Bombed
02-03-2012, 03:28 PM
I feel that CB and others wouldn't feel our players are so injury prone if they weren't Texans fans who obsesses over every bone bruise or sprain.

I have a feeling that every fan base feels that their players are injury prone. I mean they/we read articles when their player sneezes too hard.

This is a joke right?

Me thinking Mario is "injury prone" doesn't have anything to do with him being a Houston Texan.

He is injury prone and the fact that some people chose to flat out deny that fact is laughable. It's straight denial. He's sustained injuries every single season he's been in the league and injuries that pretty much range from head to toe (literally toes). You know what's so damn funny about this topic. Yesterday a local sports radio host was talking about the fact that Mario is...guess what? INJURY PRONE. Newsflash, if they're talking about him being injury prone on the radio, then there must be some truth to the fact that he is. But lets all stick our fingers in our ears and bury our heads in the sand.

Like I said though...everybody is entitled to their own opinion regardless of how delusional it may be. Just don't try to get me to agree with it.

Blake
02-03-2012, 03:33 PM
This is a joke right?

Me thinking Mario is "injury prone" doesn't have anything to do with him being a Houston Texan.

He is injury prone and the fact that some people chose to flat out deny that fact is laughable. It's straight denial. He's sustained injuries every single season he's been in the league and injuries that pretty much range from head to toe (literally toes). You know what's so damn funny about this topic. Yesterday a local sports radio host was talking about the fact that Mario is...guess what? INJURY PRONE. Newsflash, if they're talking about him being injury prone on the radio, then there must be some truth to the fact that he is. But lets all stick our fingers in our ears and bury our heads in the sand.

Like I said though...everybody is entitled to their own opinion regardless of how delusional it may be. Just don't try to get me to agree with it.

lol! Using radio monkey's as a source. I guess you believe everything on Fox news radio too. You have your opinion, I have mine. Next topic.

Carr Bombed
02-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Okay... but if you use injuries sustained the picture gets worse, especially concerning Schaub.
...remember when Schaub slipped going out of bounds in '09 during the first game (maybe it was the final preseason game)? He twisted his ankle and everyone thought, "crap, here we go again"; but, to his credit, he played the entire season. Still, injury sustained.

Point is that most everyone plays hurt at some time or another. Antonio Smith played most of the year with a bad shoulder. DeMeco played hurt most of '09. A.J. has played thru injuries even before his hammy(s) took him down this year. O.D. has had various nicks (like his hand this year) and knee the year before) that have impacted his play. It's when those injuries make players miss games that those "nicks" become an issue. Like Bob Sanders - he was off the field more than he was on.

You have your definition of "injury prone", mine is when those injuries take you out of multiple games.

I really don't understand this argument. I NEVER said players don't play hurt. It's part of the NFL. However players do have seasons where they don't sustain injuries... Mario Williams is NOT one of those players. And I already said Schaub is injury prone and Andre is well on his way to also joining that list.

I also don't understand how people are going to act like he isn't injury prone just because he's been a tough S.O.B. and was able to play through injuries that sidelined other players. Guess what, if I constantly sustain injuries, but am able to roll my butt out of bed and show up to work... it doesn't erase the injury, it just means I'm working injuried, and more than likely that injury would effect what I'm able to do at work (and BTW, my job would start looking for my replacement)....which is EXACTLY what it has done to Mario Williams who hasn't been able to record double digit sacks since 2008. Let's back up the brinks truck though. :kubepalm:

Carr Bombed
02-03-2012, 03:41 PM
lol! Using radio monkey's as a source. I guess you believe everything on Fox news radio too. You have your opinion, I have mine. Next topic.

LMAO. :lol: And this is what I like to call a copout response.


Yeah, I'm supposed to totally ignore the "radio monkeys", but I have to listen to "message board monkeys" like their opinion has any more value.

I love the "fox news radio" reference... great reach there, especially since I don't even listen to "fox news radio".


And yes you have a opinion... a opinion that I already said multiple times that you're entitled to. I have one as well.

Rey
02-03-2012, 04:02 PM
which is EXACTLY what it has done to Mario Williams who hasn't been about to record double digit sacks since 2008. Let's back up the brinks truck though. :kubepalm:

Mario has been one of the most consistent performers even when most of the other players around him weren't doing much.

When the defensive scheme sucked, when the defensive coachig sucked, when QB's could take three step drops and consistently complete passes Mario has been good to really good.

This year under Wade he had elite production through the games he was healthy. And he isn't just a pass rusher like a lot of guys are. He's good against the run too.

He was benefiting from legit coaching just like everyone else was.

Carr Bombed
02-03-2012, 04:17 PM
Mario has been one of the most consistent performers even when most of the other players around him weren't doing much.

When the defensive scheme sucked, when the defensive coachig sucked, when QB's could take three step drops and consistently complete passes Mario has been good to really good.

This year under Wade he had elite production through the games he was healthy. And he isn't just a pass rusher like a lot of guys are. He's good against the run too.

He was benefiting from legit coaching just like everyone else was.

When I think of Mario Williams... consistency is not a word that pops in my head.

I don't hate the guy, I'm just sick of people around here acting like he isn't replaceable or is the sole reason why everyone else is productive (Antonio Smith)... Happens to be the same people who said we wouldn't be able to be productive without him.


Let's put it this way.. If Mario Williams was NOT on this team and was NOT a Texan and played his entire career somewhere else. If he was a FA that was on the market and considering the year and level this defense/front 7 played at without him. Would people be screaming "We HAVE to spend most of our FA dollars on Mario Williams!", Would they feel that a pass rusher was a huge need? No they wouldn't... They would be clamoring for those dollars to be spent on a corner or used to sign our other players who fill more vital needs for this team.

ObsiWan
02-03-2012, 05:02 PM
When I think of Mario Williams... consistency is not a word that pops in my head.

I don't hate the guy, I'm just sick of people around here acting like he isn't replaceable or is the sole reason why everyone else is productive (Antonio Smith)... Happens to be the same people who said we wouldn't be able to be productive without him.


Let's put it this way.. If Mario Williams was NOT on this team and was NOT a Texan and played his entire career somewhere else. If he was a FA that was on the market and considering the year and level this defense/front 7 played at without him. Would people be screaming "We HAVE to spend most of our FA dollars on Mario Williams!", Would they feel that a pass rusher was a huge need? No they wouldn't... They would be clamoring for those dollars to be spent on a corner or used to sign our other players who fill more vital needs for this team.

No one is irreplaceable. I don't think that's the point... well it isn't mine. I just would like to see us do all we can to keep our core players. Schaub, Andre, Mario, DeMeco, and Cushing have been core players since they were brought on board. Watt, Myers, Briesel, Foster, Joseph, and maybe Antonio have have become core players. O.D. and K.W. used to have that status but, for me, they've dropped off that list. For you and others Mario has dropped off that list.

At the end of the day, it's all about how many of our core folks can we afford and not suffer a performance decline if we have to let some of them walk. That's the $64,000 question.

badboy
02-03-2012, 05:13 PM
Its going to come down to how much they can save in the process .... We have such conflicting numbers from multiple sources much like MW's cap figure , everyone wants to make up a number and plug it in ....


What we do know is he signed a 3 year deal worth $10.5m - $1.5m in signing bonus and a total of $3.5m in guarantee's.

What it boils down to is how much guaranteed money aside from the signing bonus remains to be paid. If that number is minimal , and they can save ~$2m total by cutting him , I expect him to be gone as they could replace his production at a substantial discount with a draft pick , even one taken late in the first round ..... and they pick 26th. That player is likely to cost them in the neighborhood of ~$1.2m which is less than half Jacoby Jones salary.totally agree

thunderkyss
02-03-2012, 06:30 PM
Let's put it this way.. If Mario Williams was NOT on this team and was NOT a Texan and played his entire career somewhere else. If he was a FA that was on the market and considering the year and level this defense/front 7 played at without him. Would people be screaming "We HAVE to spend most of our FA dollars on Mario Williams!", Would they feel that a pass rusher was a huge need? No they wouldn't... They would be clamoring for those dollars to be spent on a corner or used to sign our other players who fill more vital needs for this team.

True.

leebigeztx
02-04-2012, 06:31 AM
I saw a lot of money they can get by cutting guys.
3.5m-cody
3.5m-walters
That's 7m right there which is really about 14m in real cap space. The could also get schaub to drop his salary to 1m and move the rest to easily to attain snaps bonus which wouldn't count till end of year.That would give the team another 5m to work with. Dressen had his position drafted for and daniels was resigned to a good deal. He's probably gone.

dalemurphy
02-04-2012, 09:50 AM
I saw a lot of money they can get by cutting guys.
3.5m-cody
3.5m-walters
That's 7m right there which is really about 14m in real cap space. The could also get schaub to drop his salary to 1m and move the rest to easily to attain snaps bonus which wouldn't count till end of year.That would give the team another 5m to work with. Dressen had his position drafted for and daniels was resigned to a good deal. He's probably gone.

It doesn't work that way!

If we cut Walter, it would be about a $6 million cap hit, because of the final three years of his prorated salary bonus all hitting the Texans' cap at once. I'm not sure what Cody's signing bonus is, but again, it would still count against the Texans even if Cody was cut.

The Texans also can't simply have Schaub's salary dropped to $1 million under the same contract. Salaries can only fluctuate a maximum of about 30% from one year to the next. Furthermore, if you did turn all that money into a bonus, it would all count against the Texans 2013 cap, which would kill the Texans efforts to re-sign: Duane Brown, Matt Schaub, Connor Barwin, and others.

No wonder you are so adamant about keeping Mario, you're operating in a fantasy world with no idea how the salary cap works.

And, why would $7 million of cap space really be $14 million?

With what you suggested to do with Walter and Cody, according to my math, we would lose about $2 million in cap space and have two more players to replace- which also costs money.

One final note: it is Kevin Walter, not Walters

Kaiser Toro
02-04-2012, 10:10 AM
OU still sucks and Mario did not play against the Ravens.

dalemurphy
02-04-2012, 10:57 AM
OU still sucks and Mario did not play against the Ravens.

OU? I don't get this.

I've posted on this board for 7 years. Has anyone ever seen me post anything supportive about the Texas Longhorns? I hate the Longhorns. The arrogance of some people to assume that if another person disagrees with them, there must be a hidden agenda. I

I loved the Mario pick when it happened. I believed in him throughout 2006 when some on this board bashed him. I was a huge fan of his in 2007 and 2008 and 2009. In 2009, I began to notice some inconsistent effort. However, I attributed that to his injuries (shoulder). Then, in 2010, he had a great first week against Indy. He continued to play well for most of the first 6 games (until the bye). After the bye, when the team needed him most, he disappeared. There was a consistent lack of effort and I found it very difficult to watch. Then, eventually, he went on the I.R. Those 6 or 7 awful games embittered me towards him quite a bit.

Still, it turned out he was playing with an injury, so I was cautiously optimistic he could get healthy and the effort on the field would look much better. This season, I saw him hot and cold. Some very good moments surrounded by periods of seeming disinterest, highlighted by that nightmare performance vs. New Orleans.

Simply put, that's not a guy I want the Texans to give more money to than they have given to any player in their history... Considering the 14 games he missed this season was easily the best stretch of defensive football this team has ever had, it appears the obvious thing to do is to let him walk. If we can be a great defense without him, then let's not destroy the cap for a guy who hasn't had a healthy/consistent season since 2008.

Kaiser Toro
02-04-2012, 11:09 AM
OU sucking and pointing out the proper spelling of our WR2 in a conversation on re-structuring deals are both absurd.

However, calling out a player's performance in a game he did not participate, is genius.

thunderkyss
02-04-2012, 11:19 AM
...then let's not destroy the cap for a guy who hasn't had a healthy/consistent season since 2008.

I agree that we should not "destroy" the cap for any one player. However, I don't think signing Mario to a fair market deal will destroy the cap.

badboy
02-04-2012, 01:18 PM
I saw a lot of money they can get by cutting guys.
3.5m-cody
3.5m-walters
That's 7m right there which is really about 14m in real cap space. The could also get schaub to drop his salary to 1m and move the rest to easily to attain snaps bonus which wouldn't count till end of year.That would give the team another 5m to work with. Dressen had his position drafted for and daniels was resigned to a good deal. He's probably gone.Cody? WHo is your Nose?

Corrosion
02-04-2012, 11:01 PM
I saw a lot of money they can get by cutting guys.
3.5m-cody
3.5m-walters
That's 7m right there which is really about 14m in real cap space. The could also get schaub to drop his salary to 1m and move the rest to easily to attain snaps bonus which wouldn't count till end of year.That would give the team another 5m to work with. Dressen had his position drafted for and daniels was resigned to a good deal. He's probably gone.

Cody has been the most consistent player on the DL over the past two years ..... Cutting him is absolutely crazy. :mariopalm:

dalemurphy
02-05-2012, 09:51 AM
OU sucking and pointing out the proper spelling of our WR2 in a conversation on re-structuring deals are both absurd.

However, calling out a player's performance in a game he did not participate, is genius.

I never called out his performance in the Baltimore game. I said I re-watched a group of games (one of them being the Baltimore game) and was disturbed by Mario's lack of effort in those early season games, specifically referencing the New Orleans game. I never referenced anything Mario did or did not do in the Baltimore game.

When typing about those games, I mentioned that the Texans continued to pressure Flacco throughout the game, "even after Mario's exit", which was a mistake. I confused Mario's early exit in the Oakland game with the Baltimore game. The Texans certainly did apply constant pressure on Flacco that day without Mario, which was my point. There's nothing insidious about it. I simply filed away the Oakland and Baltimore games in my head as the two transition games (and losses) for the team as they learned to play and win without AJ and Mario.


I try to never attempt silly "gotcha" games that tend to happen on these message boards. However, this one gentleman (Leebigeztx), has attacked my integrity, with regularity, over this Mario issue. Turns out he has absolutely no clue how the salary cap works, though he has been vigilant in arguing about it. By the way, adding an 'S' at the end of a receiver's name who has been here for over five years, isn't simply a misspelling, it indicates he doesn't know his name. Does he think the 'S' is silent?

thunderkyss
02-05-2012, 10:21 AM
By the way, adding an 'S' at the end of a receiver's name who has been here for over five years, isn't simply a misspelling, it indicates he doesn't know his name. Does he think the 'S' is silent?

I think it may point to another issue that we all have mentioned. A #2 WR. It may be difficult to look around our last few games, but...... perhaps a true #2 is not "exactly" what we need.

We seem to run an Andre, Owen, Arian, then anybody else who happens to be on the field offense. With this in mind, would a second receiver actually receive more targets than KDub (who catches almost everything that goes his way) or Jacoby (who doesn't).

We need an heir apparent to Andre. Someone who can take his place when he's out with an injury (if that were to happen) or sit back & maintain the peace when the ball isn't being thrown his way.

I agree, Jacoby is not that guy. He's a #3 WR & that production can be replaced with an UDFA or low round draft pick...... same goes for KDub. If Jacoby can consistently catch balls ( I think I saw a site where he was 42% for the year... ) avg ypc is way up there, total yards for the year is equal with KDub, but he was targeted so many more times.... he should have had 7 or 800 yards receiving this year.

dalemurphy
02-05-2012, 11:00 AM
I think it may point to another issue that we all have mentioned. A #2 WR. It may be difficult to look around our last few games, but...... perhaps a true #2 is not "exactly" what we need.

We seem to run an Andre, Owen, Arian, then anybody else who happens to be on the field offense. With this in mind, would a second receiver actually receive more targets than KDub (who catches almost everything that goes his way) or Jacoby (who doesn't).

We need an heir apparent to Andre. Someone who can take his place when he's out with an injury (if that were to happen) or sit back & maintain the peace when the ball isn't being thrown his way.

I agree, Jacoby is not that guy. He's a #3 WR & that production can be replaced with an UDFA or low round draft pick...... same goes for KDub. If Jacoby can consistently catch balls ( I think I saw a site where he was 42% for the year... ) avg ypc is way up there, total yards for the year is equal with KDub, but he was targeted so many more times.... he should have had 7 or 800 yards receiving this year.


You have done a better job of selling Robert Meachem than I have. He's a number 3 that won't demand the ball but will be able to stretch the field and make big plays, particularly when AJ is out. And, he fits our system well... he's a good blocker.

Oh, and he won't break the bank.

ObsiWan
02-05-2012, 11:48 AM
I think it may point to another issue that we all have mentioned. A #2 WR. It may be difficult to look around our last few games, but...... perhaps a true #2 is not "exactly" what we need.

We seem to run an Andre, Owen, Arian, then anybody else who happens to be on the field offense. With this in mind, would a second receiver actually receive more targets than KDub (who catches almost everything that goes his way) or Jacoby (who doesn't).

We need an heir apparent to Andre. Someone who can take his place when he's out with an injury (if that were to happen) or sit back & maintain the peace when the ball isn't being thrown his way.

I agree, Jacoby is not that guy. He's a #3 WR & that production can be replaced with an UDFA or low round draft pick...... same goes for KDub. If Jacoby can consistently catch balls ( I think I saw a site where he was 42% for the year... ) avg ypc is way up there, total yards for the year is equal with KDub, but he was targeted so many more times.... he should have had 7 or 800 yards receiving this year.

Well, you've made a great case for replacing Jacoby - as if folks needed help for that. :)

And I agree with you completely about needing an heir apparent to A.J. I remember how the Colts' go-to guy was Marvin Harrison and they drafted Jerome Pathon and then Reggie Wayne (and even Qadry Israel) to take coverage away from Harrison. Reggie was around Marvin long enough to grow into the #1 WR role when Harrison was cut loose by the Colts.

We don't have anyone who can grow into the #1 WR role should A.J. leave at the end of his contract. This has to be the year we get that guy.

I'm for getting that guy in the draft. But I'm not against getting him in F/A.

thunderkyss
02-05-2012, 11:51 AM
You have done a better job of selling Robert Meachem than I have. He's a number 3 that won't demand the ball but will be able to stretch the field and make big plays, particularly when AJ is out. And, he fits our system well... he's a good blocker.

Oh, and he won't break the bank.

I have been against Robert Meachem becoming a Texans. I think he would be a better #3, but I see no reason to spend vet minimum for a #3. I personally do not believe he will replace Andre when he is out... I have no faith in Meachum. I believe we'll be as disappointed as the Saints fans are with him.

I wouldn't call him a bust, but again, see no reason to pay him vet minimum..... I see no reason to pay Jacoby $3M (if that is what his salary is supposed to be in 2012, which I think it is). If Jacoby's salary is close to vet minimum (3 years vet minimum plus his signing bonus should get you $3M guaranteed) then I don't care to trade Jj for Meachum.

Jacoby/Meachum is a wash if you ask me.

We can go with a late first or 2nd round pick at WR & get the same production. That person should be a #1WR project... Lets get some late round WRs or UDFAs that can get on the field (I'm looking at you LeStar...... Maehl) for our 3rd & 4th options.

I understand we have to have some experience.... so we have to keep KDub or Jj..... not both.

thunderkyss
02-05-2012, 12:02 PM
Well, you've made a great case for replacing Jacoby - as if folks needed help for that. :)

Didn't mean for it to come out that way. I personally don't think cutting Jacoby is the right answer. I'd much rather cut KDub. But we don't have a QB who can get the ball out in front of Jacoby anyway, so we might as well let him go & rely on the sure hands of KDub (a slow receiver who will be 32 before the 2012 season starts).

We need a #3 WR, Jj is a 3WR...

We need 5 receivers on the active roster. Aj (duh), WR2, KDub/Jj, Project, project.


And I agree with you completely about needing an heir apparent to A.J. I remember how the Colts' go-to guy was Marvin Harrison and they drafted Jerome Pathon and then Reggie Wayne (and even Qadry Israel) to take coverage away from Harrison. Reggie was around Marvin long enough to grow into the #1 WR role when Harrison was cut loose by the Colts.

The Colts run a totally different offense than we do. They're more vertical & Peyton will get that ball out ahead of his WR. He doesn't underthrow them on purpose. Two 1000yrd receivers is completely possible in that offense.

We don't have anyone who can grow into the #1 WR role should A.J. leave at the end of his contract. This has to be the year we get that guy.

I'm for getting that guy in the draft. But I'm not against getting him in F/A.

I don't think that person is out there in FA & don't know enough about college players to know if he'll be in the draft @26 or lower.

dalemurphy
02-05-2012, 12:54 PM
I have been against Robert Meachem becoming a Texans. I think he would be a better #3, but I see no reason to spend vet minimum for a #3. I personally do not believe he will replace Andre when he is out... I have no faith in Meachum. I believe we'll be as disappointed as the Saints fans are with him.

I wouldn't call him a bust, but again, see no reason to pay him vet minimum..... I see no reason to pay Jacoby $3M (if that is what his salary is supposed to be in 2012, which I think it is). If Jacoby's salary is close to vet minimum (3 years vet minimum plus his signing bonus should get you $3M guaranteed) then I don't care to trade Jj for Meachum.

Jacoby/Meachum is a wash if you ask me.

We can go with a late first or 2nd round pick at WR & get the same production. That person should be a #1WR project... Lets get some late round WRs or UDFAs that can get on the field (I'm looking at you LeStar...... Maehl) for our 3rd & 4th options.

I understand we have to have some experience.... so we have to keep KDub or Jj..... not both.

The only way AJ could ever be replaced (so to speak) while still an integral part of the team would be via the draft. I'm pushing Meachem as a major upgrade at #3 and a guy that can do "some" of what AJ does for the offense... Namely, making big plays and stretching the defense. I'm not opposed, at all, to drafting a wide receiver on Thursday or Friday, in addition to signing a free agent wide receiver. I am opposed to not signing a free agent wide receiver, though, unless we are determined to jump up high in the first round for a stud.

Based on any metric you would like, Jacoby and Meachem are not the same players. Meachem's catch % is higher, his yards per catch is much higher, and he has never had a season, despite being a backup, where he has not had a 50+ yard catch. He does make big plays. While not a great intermediate route runner, he's better at it than JJ.

DocBar
02-05-2012, 01:03 PM
The only way AJ could ever be replaced (so to speak) while still an integral part of the team would be via the draft. I'm pushing Meachem as a major upgrade at #3 and a guy that can do "some" of what AJ does for the offense... Namely, making big plays and stretching the defense. I'm not opposed, at all, to drafting a wide receiver on Thursday or Friday, in addition to signing a free agent wide receiver. I am opposed to not signing a free agent wide receiver, though, unless we are determined to jump up high in the first round for a stud.

Based on any metric you would like, Jacoby and Meachem are not the same players. Meachem's catch % is higher, his yards per catch is much higher, and he has never had a season, despite being a backup, where he has not had a 50+ yard catch. He does make big plays. While not a great intermediate route runner, he's better at it than JJ.If Meachem is available at the a good price, I say get him. He'd make a very good option at #3WR. That way we can hopefully draft a very good/potentially great WR and have AJ and KW teach him the ropes for a year or so.

Rey
02-05-2012, 05:46 PM
Let's put it this way.. If Mario Williams was NOT on this team and was NOT a Texan and played his entire career somewhere else. If he was a FA that was on the market and considering the year and level this defense/front 7 played at without him. Would people be screaming "We HAVE to spend most of our FA dollars on Mario Williams!"

Maybe.

There are several people that would entertain bringing Peyton in.

I think folks would want to bring in Mario if he had the same start to the season but for a different team.

Folks would say, "imagine what Wade could do with him"..."He's a physical freak that has the potential to be dominant"...

I think the conversation would be about the same, but of course he is more polarizing since he was already a Texan.

But I disagree that there wouldn't be a segment saying we should bring him in...

Carr Bombed
02-06-2012, 01:20 AM
Maybe.

There are several people that would entertain bringing Peyton in.

I think folks would want to bring in Mario if he had the same start to the season but for a different team.

Folks would say, "imagine what Wade could do with him"..."He's a physical freak that has the potential to be dominant"...

I think the conversation would be about the same, but of course he is more polarizing since he was already a Texan.

But I disagree that there wouldn't be a segment saying we should bring him in...

Nobody would be saying we need to sign Mario Williams if he was another team's FA. They would be talking about how much better Brooks Reed could be in his second year as a pro and would be talking about how Connor Barwin could take another step in his career in his second season at OLBer... and even if someone did say we should sign Mario out from under another team, everybody would be saying we need to sign our own players or would be talking about how we should sign a WR2 or a corner.

Where is all the discussion on how we need to sign the top FA OLineman? There isn't any, because that isn't a position of need right now and neither is OLBer even if we don't bring Mario back. The only reason why he's getting so much support and people want to bring him back so bad is because he's played his entire career here.. if he played his entire career somewhere else there would be little discussion about him and about the need to bring him here.

Your Manning comparison isn't really a good comparison, because when your starting QB can't stay healthy a case can be made that we should bring someone in and Manning is a once in a generation type of talent.... Mario.. not so much.

cbs1507
02-06-2012, 02:29 AM
Nobody would be saying we need to sign Mario Williams if he was another team's FA. They would be talking about how much better Brooks Reed could be in his second year as a pro and would be talking about how Connor Barwin could take another step in his career in his second season at OLBer... and even if someone did say we should sign Mario out from under another team, everybody would be saying we need to sign our own players or would be talking about how we should sign a WR2 or a corner.

Where is all the discussion on how we need to sign the top FA OLineman? There isn't any, because that isn't a position of need right now and neither is OLBer even if we don't bring Mario back. The only reason why he's getting so much support and people want to bring him back so bad is because he's played his entire career here.. if he played his entire career somewhere else there would be little discussion about him and about the need to bring him here.

Your Manning comparison isn't really a good comparison, because when your starting QB can't stay healthy a case can be made that we should bring someone in and Manning is a once in a generation type of talent.... Mario.. not so much. Who else in the NFL is like Mario? Not trying to be rude. I'm just wondering...

dalemurphy
02-06-2012, 05:29 AM
Who else in the NFL is like Mario? Not trying to be rude. I'm just wondering...

physically, I'd say J.J. Watt. However, Watt plays with a better motor and has chased down plays from behind more times as a rookie than Mario has in 6 years. Watt is also a more instinctive football player.

Other comparisons:
Charles Johnson
Will Smith

Will Smith, particularly, reminds me of Mario because of their similar career path. Both 1st rounders. Both can play a number of DL positions. Both players can physically dominate a game. Both are good against the run. Both players have had two excellent seasons and a number solid to mediocre seasons. Both careers looked great the first three years and then became less consistent.

thunderkyss
02-06-2012, 08:35 AM
The only reason why he's getting so much support and people want to bring him back so bad is because he's played his entire career here.. if he played his entire career somewhere else there would be little discussion about him and about the need to bring him here.



Not exactly. I've contended all along if Mario walks outside pass rusher will be our most pressing need. I've said that from the beginning.

I do agree, however, if he weren't a Texan, it would be a different conversation all together. But people were politicing for Haynesworth for years....... of course our pass rush did not produce like it did in 2011, so most likely, I think you're right.

If Mario were never a Texan, I doubt I would consider an argument to bring him to Houston, given the way our front 7 performed in 2011. I would still be looking for an OG & a WR to be taken with our first two picks. But I would want a pick or two to address the DL & our pass rush. Kind of like signing Arian Foster & Jeremiah Johnson even though Slaton ran for 1200 yards.

As it stands, with Mario on our team, this would be the first draft (if I were running the war room) that I wouldn't address the pass rush.

cbs1507
02-06-2012, 05:16 PM
physically, I'd say J.J. Watt. However, Watt plays with a better motor and has chased down plays from behind more times as a rookie than Mario has in 6 years. Watt is also a more instinctive football player.

Other comparisons:
Charles Johnson
Will Smith

Will Smith, particularly, reminds me of Mario because of their similar career path. Both 1st rounders. Both can play a number of DL positions. Both players can physically dominate a game. Both are good against the run. Both players have had two excellent seasons and a number solid to mediocre seasons. Both careers looked great the first three years and then became less consistent. I'm sorry I never heard anybody compare those guys to Williams. I guess I missed something. I was inquiring about someone with similar natural ability and talent.

Rey
02-06-2012, 06:28 PM
Nobody would be saying we need to sign Mario Williams if he was another team's FA. They would be talking about how much better Brooks Reed could be in his second year as a pro and would be talking about how Connor Barwin could take another step in his career in his second season at OLBer... and even if someone did say we should sign Mario out from under another team, everybody would be saying we need to sign our own players or would be talking about how we should sign a WR2 or a corner.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You are saying no one would say we should sign Mario and then you say that "If someone did say we should sign Mario"....

That is the part I disputed. The fact that you are saying NO ONE would say "sign Mario", but you have already pretty much aknowledged that some people might...

Of course you will have more people saying re-sign now him since he is already a Texan.



Where is all the discussion on how we need to sign the top FA OLineman? There isn't any, because that isn't a position of need right now and neither is OLBer even if we don't bring Mario back.

Olinemen don't get a lot of love period. Then on top of that, what top FA O-linemen are going to actually hit the market? \

I think you are incorrect here. If there was a top flight O-lineman that we all knew was going to hit the market I believe you'd have several posters saying we should sign them. We've already had people suggest drafting a top Tackle and moving Winston or Brown to Guard.

The only reason why he's getting so much support and people want to bring him back so bad is because he's played his entire career here.. if he played his entire career somewhere else there would be little discussion about him and about the need to bring him here.

I partly agree with that. Not sure what your point is though. You should know the trees in your own backyard better than you know the ones down the block.

Of course he is going to get more attention since he was already a Texan. Does that really need to be said?


Your Manning comparison isn't really a good comparison, because when your starting QB can't stay healthy a case can be made that we should bring someone in and Manning is a once in a generation type of talent.... Mario.. not so much.

The point was that QB isn't a dire need yet people are still talking about the far fetched Idea of bringing Manning in.

It's not really a stretch that if a guy like Mario Williams actually hit the market you'd have guys saying: "Since he was hurt last year we may be able to get a good deal with him. Bring him in and have a healthy rotation of Mario, Reed, and Barwin and we'd have the most talented and fierce pass rush in the league. If Wade can actually get the best out of him we'd be effing sick."


Basically, I totally disagree that NO ONE would be saying these things and suggesting that we bring Mario in. Just because it is not a percieved or immediate weakness does not mean that people wouldn't want a guy like Mario to be added to the rotation.

I don't care what position a player plays. When a top tier talent hits the market you are going to get fans talking about bringing them in. Unless you have a potential or lock hall of fame or young stud type QB you will probably have a segment fans talking about Peyton Manning. Every other position it doesn't even matter because most other positions you have two guys on the field of the same position or you can be easily moved around.

QB is one of the few positions where you don't really want any kind of rotation going.

Rey
02-06-2012, 06:40 PM
physically, I'd say J.J. Watt. However, Watt plays with a better motor and has chased down plays from behind more times as a rookie than Mario has in 6 years. Watt is also a more instinctive football player.

Other comparisons:
Charles Johnson
Will Smith

Will Smith, particularly, reminds me of Mario because of their similar career path. Both 1st rounders. Both can play a number of DL positions. Both players can physically dominate a game. Both are good against the run. Both players have had two excellent seasons and a number solid to mediocre seasons. Both careers looked great the first three years and then became less consistent.

Mario also didn't have the same coaching that JJ Watt had when he came into the league. The rest of the defense wasn't as good and they were moving Mario all over the place.

Bad Coaching - Confusion
Bad players around him - More confusion
Moved all around - More confusion


Look, I get that you guys don't like Mario that much, but to ignore the differences in the defensive personnel now and the coaching now compared to the past is just biased.

JJ Watt probably does play with more energy and a hgher motor than Mario...I'd say that Steve Smith plays with more energy, fire and a higher motor than Andre Johnson...

Players are different, but effective is effective and even when the defensive personnel has sucked and even when the coaching has sucked Mario has been pretty effective on a year to year basis. He's a good pass rusher and he's pretty damn good against the run.

The guy is a top tier player at the position so all the little breakdowns and critiques don't really mean much at the end of the day when it comes to actual performance. The guy is a really good player. He has his warts, but so does everyone else...Some more than others.

dalemurphy
02-06-2012, 07:15 PM
Mario also didn't have the same coaching that JJ Watt had when he came into the league. The rest of the defense wasn't as good and they were moving Mario all over the place.

Bad Coaching - Confusion
Bad players around him - More confusion
Moved all around - More confusion


Look, I get that you guys don't like Mario that much, but to ignore the differences in the defensive personnel now and the coaching now compared to the past is just biased.

JJ Watt probably does play with more energy and a hgher motor than Mario...I'd say that Steve Smith plays with more energy, fire and a higher motor than Andre Johnson...

Players are different, but effective is effective and even when the defensive personnel has sucked and even when the coaching has sucked Mario has been pretty effective on a year to year basis. He's a good pass rusher and he's pretty damn good against the run.

The guy is a top tier player at the position so all the little breakdowns and critiques don't really mean much at the end of the day when it comes to actual performance. The guy is a really good player. He has his warts, but so does everyone else...Some more than others.


That Steve Smith to Andre Johnson argument is pretty darn strong! It's certainly the most convincing defense of my main issue with Mario that I have heard. Thanks for that.

That being said, the central issue still comes down to paying huge money to a player that is not an essential part of the Texans' success. AJ's contract is roughly 1/2 of what Mario's will likely be but he is a much more important part of the Texans' offensive success than Mario is to the defensive success.

cbs1507
02-06-2012, 07:59 PM
That Steve Smith to Andre Johnson argument is pretty darn strong! It's certainly the most convincing defense of my main issue with Mario that I have heard. Thanks for that.

That being said, the central issue still comes down to paying huge money to a player that is not an essential part of the Texans' success. AJ's contract is roughly 1/2 of what Mario's will likely be but he is a much more important part of the Texans' offensive success than Mario is to the defensive success.

All the Mario haters keep saying the same song after their other claims are put to shame...

How about we put this last one to bed...

"That leaves us with a bottom line of $25.6M of cap space, without releasing anyone."
http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/6/2775987/texans-2012-salary-cap

We can pay Mario. We can pay Foster. We can pay Myers. I guess there really are no more arguments against Mario now...carry on. ;)

dalemurphy
02-06-2012, 08:04 PM
All the Mario haters keep saying the same song after their other claims are put to shame...

How about we put that this last one to bed...


http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/6/2775987/texans-2012-salary-cap

We can pay Mario. We can pay Foster. We can pay Myers. I guess there really are no more arguments against Mario now...carry on. ;)

I've never said we can't pay him. I said we can't afford to franchise him.

I've argued that we shouldn't sign him. We shouldn't sign a guy that will consume 10% of the cap moving forward when he showed to be non-essential on a great defense. I would rather spend that money elsewhere.

thunderkyss
02-06-2012, 09:01 PM
http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/6/2775987/texans-2012-salary-cap

We can pay Mario. We can pay Foster. We can pay Myers. I guess there really are no more arguments against Mario now...carry on. ;)

FYI, that "source" is no different than what we've seen so far. It's a fan's calculations after "cobbling" together information from mostly unsubstantiated sources.

We still have nothing official.

But the premise is sound. We were not over the 2011 cap. We have players that will come off the cap...... most notable the expensive Mario Williams.

Carr Bombed
02-06-2012, 09:45 PM
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You are saying no one would say we should sign Mario and then you say that "If someone did say we should sign Mario"....That is the part I disputed. The fact that you are saying NO ONE would say "sign Mario", but you have already pretty much acknowledged that some people might...

Oh geez, do we really have to break down the semantics of my post? I threw out the "even if someone tried to argue for Mario" line.. for argument's sake, as in you think there would be people clamoring for him like he was a giant need... which they wouldn't be. And I don't know how you got "people might", from a "even if someone would" statement. Maybe that's why you're confused. Someone is singular and you always have to account for the 1 nut in the bunch. Hence for "argument's sake". Let's put it this way.. The conversation wouldn't be the same like what you tried to say.


Olinemen don't get a lot of love period. Then on top of that, what top FA O-linemen are going to actually hit the market? \

I think you are incorrect here. If there was a top flight O-lineman that we all knew was going to hit the market I believe you'd have several posters saying we should sign them. We've already had people suggest drafting a top Tackle and moving Winston or Brown to Guard.

Drafting a tackle doesn't have anything to do with spending a crap load of money in FA and signing a tackle, so I don't get that argument. Rookies are cheap and that's the best way to now get bang for your buck. If if I agreed with taking a tackle and moving Winston inside (which is a idea I'd entertain)...it doesn't mean I want to spend a crap load of money on a FA.

For instance... if we let Mario walk, I'd support the idea of finding another OLBer in the draft for depth...because it wouldn't cost that much. That doesn't mean I'm willing to back up the truck for Mario, just because I'd be willing to draft another OLBer. Same thing with signing a tackle and drafting a tackle. And like I said, I haven't really read anywhere where people are talking about spending big FA dollars on a premier outside offensive lineman. Just like I haven't heard about them wanting to spend big FA dollars on a premier OLBer (not named Mario)... and I wonder why. Maybe has to do with the fact that OLBer isn't a glaring need despite the pending FA of Williams.



I partly agree with that. Not sure what your point is though. You should know the trees in your own backyard better than you know the ones down the block.

Of course he is going to get more attention since he was already a Texan. Does that really need to be said?

And that is why I'm willing to part ways with Mario Williams...because I DO know "the tree" and the other trees we have in our backyard.



The point was that QB isn't a dire need yet people are still talking about the far fetched Idea of bringing Manning in.

And this is completely debateable...hence why there's absolutely no comparison to Mario Williams. While I don't think there's a shot in hell of Manning coming to this team. You can't sit there and question why some people may feel that QB is a need on this team when your starter can't stay healthy and only has been able to finish a NFL season half the time that he's spent playing in the NFL.

It's not really a stretch that if a guy like Mario Williams actually hit the market you'd have guys saying: "Since he was hurt last year we may be able to get a good deal with him. Bring him in and have a healthy rotation of Mario, Reed, and Barwin and we'd have the most talented and fierce pass rush in the league. If Wade can actually get the best out of him we'd be effing sick."


Basically, I totally disagree that NO ONE would be saying these things and suggesting that we bring Mario in. Just because it is not a percieved or immediate weakness does not mean that people wouldn't want a guy like Mario to be added to the rotation.

I don't care what position a player plays. When a top tier talent hits the market you are going to get fans talking about bringing them in. Unless you have a potential or lock hall of fame or young stud type QB you will probably have a segment fans talking about Peyton Manning. Every other position it doesn't even matter because most other positions you have two guys on the field of the same position or you can be easily moved around.

OK, just for clarification :vincepalm: So I won't have to decipher a lot of your quotes where you break up my post and break it down sentence by sentence (kinda annoying)

Maybe I should clear it up. People wouldn't act like we HAD to bring Mario back. Even if they're might be some people adamant about bringing him on board at the most it'd be a very small minority. Certainly nothing like what we have going on here, because whether you want to admit it or not and the main point that I was trying to make (a point that you've managed to dodge despite all of the quoting) is that even without bringing Mario back... OLBer is NOT a huge need and we have great options there.


P.S.

next time you respond to a post of mine, can you please try to keep the quotes to a minimum... I'm not trying to be a ass here, but that is a huge pet peeve of mine. Now we have completely butchered the conversation and even if you respond back to this post (and I'm sure you will), the whole talking points are completely FUBAR'ed.

Rey
02-07-2012, 09:16 AM
That Steve Smith to Andre Johnson argument is pretty darn strong! It's certainly the most convincing defense of my main issue with Mario that I have heard. Thanks for that.

That being said, the central issue still comes down to paying huge money to a player that is not an essential part of the Texans' success. AJ's contract is roughly 1/2 of what Mario's will likely be but he is a much more important part of the Texans' offensive success than Mario is to the defensive success.

I will not argue with that.

If Mario cost too much, let him go.

But if we can get him back at a fair price that is reasonable to our cap then I'd bring him back.

thunderkyss
02-07-2012, 09:06 PM
I will not argue with that.

If Mario cost too much, let him go.

But if we can get him back at a fair price that is reasonable to our cap then I'd bring him back.

How much of a cap hit are you willing to suffer?

Corrosion
02-07-2012, 10:49 PM
How much of a cap hit are you willing to suffer?

Thats a good question .... one I dont have an answer to mainly because I dont know what its going to take to get the other FA's taken care of.
Especially Foster tho they could just tender him I dont think that would be wise - When you tell a guy to "Do it again" and he does without complaint - Its time to pony up.


Last year MW cost $17.6m twards the cap - If you could get that number to ~$10-11m would that leave enough room to take care of Foster , Briesel , Myers and Dreessen as well as leaving space for draft picks?

cbs1507
02-07-2012, 11:44 PM
Thats a good question .... one I dont have an answer to mainly because I dont know what its going to take to get the other FA's taken care of.
Especially Foster tho they could just tender him I dont think that would be wise - When you tell a guy to "Do it again" and he does without complaint - Its time to pony up.


Last year MW cost $17.6m twards the cap - If you could get that number to ~$10-11m would that leave enough room to take care of Foster , Briesel , Myers and Dreessen as well as leaving space for draft picks?
His cap number was around $19 million since Bob McNair said himself that Mario's tag was $22.9. Mario could command 11-13 million average salary. So if we could get that number down to 10 or 11 for next season (possibly lower) we could easily work deals for our other FAs. Foster could command 9-10 million. Hopefully we can get him to agree to somewhat less, because the most important positions are QB, LT and DE so we need to invest the most in those spots.

Carr Bombed
02-08-2012, 12:03 AM
His cap number was around $19 million since Bob McNair said himself that Mario's tag was $22.9. Mario could command 11-13 million average salary. So if we could get that number down to 10 or 11 for next season (possibly lower) we could easily work deals for our other FAs. Foster could command 9-10 million. Hopefully we can get him to agree to somewhat less, because the most important positions are QB, LT and DE so we need to invest the most in those spots.

We already have... 1st round pick... Duane Brown, high FA acquisition Antonio Smith, 2nd round pick Connor Barwin, 1st round pick J.J. Watt, and 2nd round pick Brooks Reed.

It's the high investment in that spot (DE/OLBer) which has made moving on without Mario Williams a complete realistic viable option.

Corrosion
02-08-2012, 12:14 AM
We already have... 1st round pick... Duane Brown, high FA acquisition Antonio Smith, 2nd round pick Connor Barwin, 1st round pick J.J. Watt, and 2nd round pick Brooks Reed.

It's the high investment in that spot (DE/OLBer) which has made moving on without Mario Williams a complete realistic viable option.

It is definately a possibility and realistic option that MW and the Texans part ways. But it changes their needs significantly going forward.

You just cant go into next season with Barwin , Reed and .... Jesse Nading & Bryan Braman as your only backups.
While I have some high hopes for Braman he is the same as Nading at this point in time - simply a ST player and depth.

They wouldnt have to aquire a player equal to MW but would definately have to find a quality pass rusher that can be part of a rotation.

Either way , they can sign their own FA's that they want to keep ....

The question boils down to - Are you better with him or can you spend that money elsewhere and improve the team overall to compensate for the loss.

Carr Bombed
02-08-2012, 12:31 AM
It is definitely a possibility and realistic option that MW and the Texans part ways. But it changes their needs significantly going forward.

You just cant go into next season with Barwin , Reed and .... Jesse Nading & Bryan Braman as your only backups.
While I have some high hopes for Braman he is the same as Nading at this point in time - simply a ST player and depth.

They wouldn't have to acquire a player equal to MW but would definitely have to find a quality pass rusher that can be part of a rotation.

Either way , they can sign their own FA's that they want to keep ....

The question boils down to - Are you better with him or can you spend that money elsewhere and improve the team overall to compensate for the loss.

I agree with this and mentioned it earlier in this thread. If Mario walks, I'll have no problem with adding another OLBer in the draft.. Hell, I expect that to do that if he walks.

I just think we are already solid at the starting positions, but we would need depth. You can find depth in the middle rounds and it's much easier to fill a backup spot than it is to fill a starting role. We already have the starting caliber type players to replace Mario Williams if we elect to let him go and that's a great position to be in.

Everyone knew if we acquired enough talent sooner or later we'd be put in this position. When you have a very talented team, you can't sign everybody under the cap. This is what happens to go teams, which is why I'm not freaking out over the prospect of maybe letting #90 walk. We have other elite players that need to be signed as well.

thunderkyss
02-08-2012, 04:47 AM
I would feel much better, about letting MW walk, if we had kept Mark Anderson to play OLB. There is no guarantee that a na draft pick or free agent is going to work out, there are several reasons why h won't.

Mario has that bird in the hand thing going for him.

cbs1507
02-08-2012, 05:07 AM
I agree with this and mentioned it earlier in this thread. If Mario walks, I'll have no problem with adding another OLBer in the draft.. Hell, I expect that to do that if he walks.

I just think we are already solid at the starting positions, but we would need depth. You can find depth in the middle rounds and it's much easier to fill a backup spot than it is to fill a starting role. We already have the starting caliber type players to replace Mario Williams if we elect to let him go and that's a great position to be in.

Everyone knew if we acquired enough talent sooner or later we'd be put in this position. When you have a very talented team, you can't sign everybody under the cap. This is what happens to go teams, which is why I'm not freaking out over the prospect of maybe letting #90 walk. We have other elite players that need to be signed as well.

I get where you're coming from but what makes you think signing Mario affects us being able to keep our key players (if you mean the key FA from 2012)? First of all if we sign Mario we will sign our key guys. If we don't sign him we still will sign our key guys and we'll take the course of action you mentioned in your post. Also, what makes those other guys so special (assuming those other guys are Barwin/Reed/whomever we draft to "replace" Mario) that we should keep them over Mario? I mean if we signed Mario I'm sure we could keep some of them and others might walk (looking ahead to 2013 since he will not affect us signing key guys from this year). But Mario hands down is a better player than Barwin or Reed. I mean you're essentially saying let go of a game changer to keep a few "high motor" guys. Teams only have a chance to have a player like Mario once a generation. If we let him walk that was our "once a generation" so we'd be relegated to some role players to try to compete for championships until we were able to get a pass rusher like him again. I'm sure it would not be hard to find another Barwin/Reed compared to another Mario. So yes we'd have to address depth if he walks. But why do we value some good players more than a great changer? I always thought you keep the game changer and build around them (which is what we did with our defense).

Rey
02-08-2012, 09:26 AM
If I'm the Texans, no way am I letting Mario walk....period....

I'd find a way to make his cap number reaasonable....whatever reasonable is...

b0ng
02-08-2012, 08:56 PM
I'll already mentioned those two players... So what's your point?


And will people please get off of...games missed. This is about INJURIES SUSTAINED. Hence, injury prone.

Games missed is about 10000000000000000x more important than whether they get nicked up throughout the season but still complete it.

okthnxplzdrivethru

Carr Bombed
02-08-2012, 09:04 PM
Games missed is about 10000000000000000x more important than whether they get nicked up throughout the season but still complete it.

okthnxplzdrivethru

Wow nice bump...

Nobody is trying to argue which is more important or even better... that wasn't even the argument or point that was even put forth. The argument was if Mario was injury prone or not... and he's injury prone.

And it isn't just about "competing", it's about at what level (there's a TON of players that "compete" in the NFL who aren't worth elite money). Mario Williams hasn't put up elite production since 2008. Hence, not worth the money that he's going to command.

Carr Bombed
02-08-2012, 09:13 PM
I get where you're coming from but what makes you think signing Mario affects us being able to keep our key players (if you mean the key FA from 2012)? First of all if we sign Mario we will sign our key guys. If we don't sign him we still will sign our key guys and we'll take the course of action you mentioned in your post. Also, what makes those other guys so special (assuming those other guys are Barwin/Reed/whomever we draft to "replace" Mario) that we should keep them over Mario? I mean if we signed Mario I'm sure we could keep some of them and others might walk (looking ahead to 2013 since he will not affect us signing key guys from this year). But Mario hands down is a better player than Barwin or Reed. I mean you're essentially saying let go of a game changer to keep a few "high motor" guys. Teams only have a chance to have a player like Mario once a generation. If we let him walk that was our "once a generation" so we'd be relegated to some role players to try to compete for championships until we were able to get a pass rusher like him again. I'm sure it would not be hard to find another Barwin/Reed compared to another Mario. So yes we'd have to address depth if he walks. But why do we value some good players more than a great changer? I always thought you keep the game changer and build around them (which is what we did with our defense).

How is Mario Williams a "game changer", but Barwin is not? The dude hasn't recorded double digit sacks since 2008 and doesn't play near as hard as other players...game changers don't pull disappearing acts either. As a rookie, J.J. Watt was more of a "game changer" than Mario has ever been... even when healthy.

Barwin was also NOT a "role player" last season, frankly that's insulting to Barwin and to a extent even Reed.

As far as not being able to find other high caliber players... teams do it every year and you don't need a #1 ovrl pick to get a player who's better than Mario Williams.

cbs1507
02-08-2012, 09:31 PM
How is Mario Williams a "game changer"? The dude hasn't recorded double digit sacks since 2008 and doesn't play near as hard as other players...game changers don't pull disapearing acts either. As a rookie, J.J. Watt was more of a "game changer" than Mario has ever been... even when healthy.

Barwin was also NOT a "role player" last season, frankly that's insulting to Barwin and even Reed.

As far as not being able to find other high caliber players... teams do it every year and you don't need a #1 ovrl pick to get a player who's better than Mario Williams.

I respect your opinion, but I beg to differ. He led the team in sacks 4 out of 6 years and accounted for 33% (48 of 144 total sacks) of the teams sacks from 2006-2010. His numbers have declined since 2008 (still led his team in sacks so what does that say about the other guys?) but he played through injuries. BTW who was leading the team in sacks before Mario went down in week 5? Anyway, my point was that if we sign Mario and say Barwin walked next year. Barwin replacement would be easier to find. You don't actually replace Mario if he walks. You just find guys to pick it up across the board. It seems to me that it would be easier to replace a Barwin or Reed easier than it would be to replace a Williams type of player.

On the contrary, Barwin and Reed are role players. Although Barwin stepped up and played very well last season, he's a "role player" if we resign Mario. Quite frankly Mario Williams > Connor Barwin or Brooks Reed or any draft pick you have in mind.

I never said we could not find "high caliber players". I just said that it's easier to find someone of Barwin's talent than it would be to find someone of Williams' talent. Just follow my reasoning. Since we can easily replace a Mario (according to you). Why can't we just replace Barwin next year since "high caliber" players are so easy to come across?

dalemurphy
02-08-2012, 09:35 PM
I would feel much better, about letting MW walk, if we had kept Mark Anderson to play OLB. There is no guarantee that a na draft pick or free agent is going to work out, there are several reasons why h won't.

Mario has that bird in the hand thing going for him.

Mark Anderson? We have free agency in front of us. If Mark Anderson would make you feel better about losing Mario, then I wouldn't worry about the options that will be available. There will be plenty of talent in the market at/or above Mark Anderson's talent level.

drs23
02-08-2012, 10:44 PM
Mark Anderson? We have free agency in front of us. If Mark Anderson would make you feel better about losing Mario, then I wouldn't worry about the options that will be available. There will be plenty of talent in the market at/or above Mark Anderson's talent level.

Still my contention that the Texans won't be big players in this coming FA period.

Don't see it happening.

badboy
02-08-2012, 10:51 PM
His cap number was around $19 million since Bob McNair said himself that Mario's tag was $22.9. Mario could command 11-13 million average salary. So if we could get that number down to 10 or 11 for next season (possibly lower) we could easily work deals for our other FAs. Foster could command 9-10 million. Hopefully we can get him to agree to somewhat less, because the most important positions are QB, LT and DE so we need to invest the most in those spots.ANyway you can provide link as I have heard only John McCain sayng this. If it is sourced and true we should be able to start using the $22.9 cap figure. I am good either way as if true and he is not on roster $23m is a lot of cashola to spend somewhere.

Dutchrudder
02-08-2012, 10:55 PM
ANyway you can provide link as I have heard only John McCain sayng this. If it is sourced and true we should be able to start using the $22.9 cap figure. I am good either way as if true and he is not on roster $23m is a lot of cashola to spend somewhere.

I don't have a link, but I recall a Chronicle article quoting McNair saying that Mario would cost 23 mill to tag and that's why the Texans won't do it. From there I estimated his actual salary to be 19 mill, and that's why I have been saying that the past week or so. The quote is buried somewhere in the Mario thread...

Corrosion has said Mario's number was actually 17.6 mill, and I think that may come from a source close to the Texans (not McClain...). So that has some credence as well. If I had to bet on it though, I'd go with the 17.6 figure as it's slightly more conservative. Either way, that alone is enough to re-sign Myers, Brisiel, Foster, Dreesen and FA WR. So I think the Texans will remain mostly in tact.

badboy
02-08-2012, 11:03 PM
I don't have a link, but I recall a Chronicle article quoting McNair saying that Mario would cost 23 mill to tag and that's why the Texans won't do it. From there I estimated his actual salary to be 19 mill, and that's why I have been saying that the past week or so. The quote is buried somewhere in the Mario thread...

Corrosion has said Mario's number was actually 17.6 mill, and I think that may come from a source close to the Texans (not McClain...). So that has some credence as well. If I had to bet on it though, I'd go with the 17.6 figure as it's slightly more conservative. Either way, that alone is enough to re-sign Myers, Brisiel, Foster, Dreesen and FA WR. So I think the Texans will remain mostly in tact.That is article I'm referring to but don't remember McClain saying McNair was source just stated it as a fact. Corrosion I think is using the $17m as a tag not salary. I think he agrees with me that salary 2011 was apprx $14 million with cap of $15.6 and tag of $14m + 20% = $16.8m. for 2012.

ChampionTexan
02-08-2012, 11:14 PM
That is article I'm referring to but don't remember McClain saying McNair was source just stated it as a fact. Corrosion I think is using the $17m as a tag not salary. I think he agrees with me that salary 2011 was apprx $14 million with cap of $15.6 and tag of $14m + 20% = $16.8m. for 2012.

There has been a link provided in at least one of these threads that included that quote out of an article by David Dalati for Fox Sports. Dalati quotes McNair as saying Mario's franchise tag number for next season would be $23 Million, and that it was not an option.

McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.

LINK (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/01/19/12/Foster-Williams-top-priorities-for-Texan/landing_texans.html?blockID=649138)

Corrosion
02-09-2012, 07:53 AM
My statement was that MW's cap hit for last season was $17.6m and yes thats from a source close to the Texans , and a slightly conservative number considering that the reports are that to franchise MW the cap hold could be as high as $23.9m.

If the cap hold is that $23.9 number - that means his salary for last season had to be in the neighborhood of $19.9m - (19.9x1.2=22.88)


I never "Heard McNair" make any statements about MW's cap figures ..... but if the 23.9 number is correct they cant tag him , hell they cant tag him even at the 17.6 number of 21.12.



Thing is , He's not going to cost that , or near that 17.6 or 19.9 (take your pick of figures) in the coming season.


Even if he gets a deal averaging $10m per season , and I think that number is more than fair , there is somewhere between 7.6m and 9.9m in cap savings leaving them room to take care of other positions.


What it boils down to is how much will team X offer ..... How much guaranteed and how many years.



I think GM's will take note of this crazy high figure going forward amd rather than backload the final year - backload the next to last year so as not to hamstring themselves with a similar situation.

thunderkyss
02-09-2012, 08:35 AM
Mark Anderson? We have free agency in front of us. If Mark Anderson would make you feel better about losing Mario, then I wouldn't worry about the options that will be available. There will be plenty of talent in the market at/or above Mark Anderson's talent level.

Still, doesn't make any sense. We're going to release the best pass rusher in this FA class & pick up the third(?) maybe sixth(?) best pass rusher?

My point about Anderson, was if he was here, we'd already know how he would work out. If he looked like Nading or Brahman, then pass rusher would still be a need. If he looked like Barwin..... then it wouldn't.

Barwin, Reed, +Anderson looking good in our system I'm ok with.

Barwin, Reed +Anderson looking like Nading, not so much.

I want Mario to stay, because I feel good about him producing in the near future. I want to focus this years FA acquisitions & draft on the offensive side of the ball. In my mind, no Mario means outside pass rusher is priority #1. You fill that priority, like we have in the past with at least two picks. 2006 - Mario & Demeco (Anthony Weaver), 2009 - Cushing & Barwin (Antonio Smith), 2011 - Jj Watt & Brooks Reed.

2012 - 1st & maybe a 3rd or 4th.... I want those two picks to go on the offensive side of the ball.

HOU-TEX
02-10-2012, 03:00 PM
The Steelers have freed up 18 million in cap space since the season ended. I'm not sure we can re-structure enough to free that much space, but I'm sure we'll be doing work soon. At least I hope

Per Football Outsiders' Brian McIntyre, the Steelers have freed up over $18 million in cap space since the season ended.
The moves have included cutting CB Bryant McFadden and WR Arnaz Battle, and redoing the contracts of CB Ike Taylor, and LBs Lawrence Timmons and LaMarr Woodley. As of late January, the Steelers were a projected $25M over the cap, so more transactions are coming. They may include releasing WR Hines Ward, NT Casey Hampton, and LG Chris Kemoeatu. The Steelers want to give Mike Wallace a long-term deal rather than try to retain him with a restricted tender.

http://www.rotoworld.com/sports/nfl/football

Rey
02-10-2012, 03:10 PM
They just signed Ike Taylor so that pretty much means that just about everyone should be fair game to having their contract re-done as long as it saves the team money and they are willing to do so.

ChampionTexan
02-10-2012, 03:59 PM
They just signed Ike Taylor so that pretty much means that just about everyone should be fair game to having their contract re-done as long as it saves the team money and they are willing to do so.

Unless an extension is mutually agreeable, the longer the term left on the contract, the easier it is to restructure. Two of the contracts the Texans restructured last off season in order to be able to do the Joseph and Manning deals were Demeco's and AJ's. Demeco's contract was only a year old, and if AJ's most recent deal was older than that, it wasn't by much.

While I certainly can't say this as a fact, the way that the Timmons contract was restructured (converting a 2nd year roster bonus and some of the year 2 salary to a "signing bonus"), I would guess that it was originally structured specifically to make it easy to restructure if circumstances warranted.

I would imagine if the Texans do find themselves looking to free up cap room this offseason, those two contracts (Joseph and Manning) would be high on the list of restructure candidates.

badboy
02-10-2012, 09:52 PM
There has been a link provided in at least one of these threads that included that quote out of an article by David Dalati for Fox Sports. Dalati quotes McNair as saying Mario's franchise tag number for next season would be $23 Million, and that it was not an option.



LINK (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/01/19/12/Foster-Williams-top-priorities-for-Texan/landing_texans.html?blockID=649138)This is article I read but find it interesting that Bob's comments are in quotes but not the sentence that Mario's cap was $23m; maybe I'm reading what is not there but here is the article:

It is yet to be determined if the Texans will be able to sign their primary free agents, including Williams and extend Foster because the NFL's salary cap is not expected to rise much above the current $120 million. But the Texans may ask players to re-structure deals to make room under the cap. In Williams' case, it's unclear what his market value will be once free agency begins in March.

"It's just a question of where teams stand and how much room they have, I guess," said McNair.

McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.

"We've been spending at the cap and, in some cases, over," McNair said about the club's flexibility to sign free agents. "We have limitations there as to what we might be able to do. We're going to use our money to keep our core players that are the foundation of the team."


Also note the last paragraph does not identify Mario contract as one that was over.

badboy
02-10-2012, 09:56 PM
My statement was that MW's cap hit for last season was $17.6m and yes thats from a source close to the Texans , and a slightly conservative number considering that the reports are that to franchise MW the cap hold could be as high as $23.9m.

If the cap hold is that $23.9 number - that means his salary for last season had to be in the neighborhood of $19.9m - (19.9x1.2=22.88)


I never "Heard McNair" make any statements about MW's cap figures ..... but if the 23.9 number is correct they cant tag him , hell they cant tag him even at the 17.6 number of 21.12.



Thing is , He's not going to cost that , or near that 17.6 or 19.9 (take your pick of figures) in the coming season.


Even if he gets a deal averaging $10m per season , and I think that number is more than fair , there is somewhere between 7.6m and 9.9m in cap savings leaving them room to take care of other positions.


What it boils down to is how much will team X offer ..... How much guaranteed and how many years.



I think GM's will take note of this crazy high figure going forward amd rather than backload the final year - backload the next to last year so as not to hamstring themselves with a similar situation.I am hoping his cap was the higher number because if we sign him as you said, we should have quite a bit left over. If McNair did agree for Texans to be over the 2011 cap why would he not agree to do so agains especially as we did so well with less? Now is the time to make some bold radical moves.

ObsiWan
02-10-2012, 10:35 PM
I heard something very disturbing on 790 am on the way home today. It seems that the new agreement allows every team to "roll over" any unused 2011 cap room into 2012. They pointed out that Cincy was something like $30 mil under the cap in '11. So that plus their projected 2012 cap room of 18-20 mil means they have nearly 50 mil in cap space to play with this coming F/A season. The Jags are in the same situation with $45 - 50 mil in 2011 cap rollover bucks plus projected 2012 cap room. The Patriots have like $30mil in rollover/new cap money.

The Texans, they said, were only 4-5 mil under the 2011 cap and then they had to burn some of that when they signed Delhomme and Garcia.

All that to say, there may be lots of suitors for MW, AF, and our other F/As

:yikes:

badboy
02-10-2012, 10:56 PM
The Steelers have freed up 18 million in cap space since the season ended. I'm not sure we can re-structure enough to free that much space, but I'm sure we'll be doing work soon. At least I hope



http://www.rotoworld.com/sports/nfl/footballI think we are apprx $25 million under cap as of today. We must sign our fee agents such as Foster, Myers, Williams, Dreesen, etc.

badboy
02-10-2012, 10:58 PM
I heard something very disturbing on 790 am on the way home today. It seems that the new agreement allows every team to "roll over" any unused 2011 cap room into 2012. They pointed out that Cincy was something like $30 mil under the cap in '11. So that plus their projected 2012 cap room of 18-20 mil means they have nearly 50 mil in cap space to play with this coming F/A season. The Jags are in the same situation with $45 - 50 mil in 2011 cap rollover bucks plus projected 2012 cap room. The Patriots have like $30mil in rollover/new cap money.

The Texans, they said, were only 4-5 mil under the 2011 cap and then they had to burn some of that when they signed Delhomme and Garcia.

All that to say, there may be lots of suitors for MW, AF, and our other F/As

:yikes:As I said above we no longer have 2012 free agents against our cap. Don't panic. :goodluck:

thunderkyss
02-10-2012, 11:17 PM
I think we are apprx $25 million under cap as of today. We must sign our fee agents such as Foster, Myers, Williams, Dreesen, etc.

Going by 2011 salaries,

knowing we were at the cap at the end of the season
Dropping Garcia & Delhomme ($5M)
Dropping Mario's salary (about $16M)
We have several free agents


It would make sense we would be around $25M under.

But, I don't know how Schaub, Andre, Jjo, Anotnio, Manning, & others cap numbers look for 2012. I doubt they would cover the $20M or so we think we have.

badboy
02-10-2012, 11:25 PM
Going by 2011 salaries,

knowing we were at the cap at the end of the season
Dropping Garcia & Delhomme ($5M)
Dropping Mario's salary (about $16M)
We have several free agents


It would make sense we would be around $25M under.

But, I don't know how Schaub, Andre, Jjo, Anotnio, Manning, & others cap numbers look for 2012. I doubt they would cover the $20M or so we think we have.THis is confusing as my understanding is the 2012 cap will not rise much yet the roster players salaries will go up. Guess it was only way owners could attempt to control things.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 12:08 AM
THis is confusing as my understanding is the 2012 cap will not rise much yet the roster players salaries will go up. Guess it was only way owners could attempt to control things.

Not all of them will go up, I don't know what Schaub's 2012 number will be compared to his 2011 number. May be more, may be less. Same for all the other players.

leebigeztx
02-11-2012, 12:11 AM
The texans can also cut some guys to free up money. Walters(3.5m), cody(3m),Lienhart(3m) should be released. Myers and briesel don't have a market outside texans or maybe redskins.Dressen will be lowballed because daniels is making 6m and the better player.

JCTexan
02-11-2012, 12:14 AM
Not all of them will go up, I don't know what Schaub's 2012 number will be compared to his 2011 number. May be more, may be less. Same for all the other players.

According to rotoworld (don't know how accurate) Schaub made 5.7 Million in 2011 and will make 7.15 Million next year.

Corrosion
02-11-2012, 08:31 AM
The texans can also cut some guys to free up money. Walters(3.5m), cody(3m),Lienhart(3m) should be released. Myers and briesel don't have a market outside texans or maybe redskins.Dressen will be lowballed because daniels is making 6m and the better player.

Cody is a bargin at NT for $3.5m with his production , not to mention he's been the most consistent DL on the team for the past two seasons. He isnt and shouldnt be cut.


Walter (No s) probably wont be cut , tho you might see a restructure of his deal (two seasons left). If a WR gets cut its J.Jones.


Leinart could (and should) be a goner pending Schaub's health considering they have Yates and can get a 3rd QB much cheaper late in the draft or as a UDFA.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 11:31 AM
Leinart could (and should) be a goner pending Schaub's health considering they have Yates and can get a 3rd QB much cheaper late in the draft or as a UDFA.

I wonder what Leinart would be worth to the Redskins. A fifth?

Dutchrudder
02-11-2012, 11:37 AM
According to rotoworld (don't know how accurate) Schaub made 5.7 Million in 2011 and will make 7.15 Million next year.

I'm pretty sure Schaub had a signing bonus of 1.2 mill a year. Something like that, so his cap is a bit higher.

Corrosion
02-11-2012, 11:49 AM
I wonder what Leinart would be worth to the Redskins. A fifth?

Man I dont know .... Might be able to squeeze something out of them .... might not.


What other teams are QB starved ?

Dutchrudder
02-11-2012, 02:04 PM
Man I dont know .... Might be able to squeeze something out of them .... might not.


What other teams are QB starved ?

I wonder what Leinart would be worth to the Redskins. A fifth?

I like the idea of trading Lienart as well, but his shoulder injury in his first start really hurts his trade value. I think if you ship him anywhere it will be for a 5-7th pick, or a combo of him + a 6/7th for a 4th or 5th. He's had issues with that shoulder before, so other teams likely know to be cautious. Some teams that may want him would be the Redskins and Seahawks (they tried to sign him last year).

Even if just one of those teams wanted him, I would love to give up Lienart and our 6th for their 4th round pick. They help us out by relieving some cap room and we get to move up two rounds there. They still have the same number of picks to continue rebuilding their team, and we get to move up and possibly grab another role player for our playoff run. Low risk for them, and improving our depth. Win-win IMO.

ChampionTexan
02-11-2012, 02:50 PM
A couple of interesting articles relating to the cap, restructuring, and how things work.

Salary cap becomes a factor once again (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/salary-cap-becomes-a-factor-once-again/)
Taking a peek at the 2012 NFL salary cap... (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/sfl-miami-dolphins-nfl-salary-cap-20120206,0,2651120.story?page=1)

The first article is just kind of general, but gave a few insights and thoughts that some might find interesting.

The second article lists the salary cap by team. I have no idea if it's correct, kind of close, or not even in the right zip code - and that's the point. It's considerably different than the idea that we have approx. $25 Million in cap room going into the off season. Maybe it's wrong, and maybe the $25 Million is wrong (more likely they both are). I'm just saying I haven't seen anything that's both concrete and credible in my mind saying where the Texans are on the whole, and until then, I'm making no assumptions either optimistic or pessimistic.

ObsiWan
02-11-2012, 02:57 PM
As I said above we no longer have 2012 free agents against our cap. Don't panic. :goodluck:

That doesn't bother me nearly as much as how much money the other teams have to throw around.

ChampionTexan
02-11-2012, 03:02 PM
That doesn't bother me nearly as much as how much money the other teams have to throw around.

Well, maybe since the 89% team minimum doesn't kick in until the 2013 league season, we can hope those teams take advantage of their last chance to be so cheap.

badboy
02-11-2012, 03:05 PM
That doesn't bother me nearly as much as how much money the other teams have to throw around.understood & there are those trying to cash in on buck being offered by thise teams. Still,I think many players will want to play for Houston.

cbs1507
02-11-2012, 03:44 PM
A couple of interesting articles relating to the cap, restructuring, and how things work.

Salary cap becomes a factor once again (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/salary-cap-becomes-a-factor-once-again/)
Taking a peek at the 2012 NFL salary cap... (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/sfl-miami-dolphins-nfl-salary-cap-20120206,0,2651120.story?page=1)

The first article is just kind of general, but gave a few insights and thoughts that some might find interesting.

The second article lists the salary cap by team. I have no idea if it's correct, kind of close, or not even in the right zip code - and that's the point. It's considerably different than the idea that we have approx. $25 Million in cap room going into the off season. Maybe it's wrong, and maybe the $25 Million is wrong (more likely they both are). I'm just saying I haven't seen anything that's both concrete and credible in my mind saying where the Texans are on the whole, and until then, I'm making no assumptions either optimistic or pessimistic.
I don't think either is wrong necessarily...

If you think about it I think you can develop some optimism. It says that we stand at about $116 million against the cap (Jason La Canfora reported us at about $118 million (http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/)). So there is not too much variation there. We know the cap was $120.375 million in 2011, so it will be AT LEAST $120.375 million in 2012. So let's say the cap will be $120.375 million. Logically the $116 they reported had to include EVERYBODY, because free agency doesn't start until March 13th. So I'm guessing we will have more cap space when the FAs come off the books. I believe we have 17 FAs (http://www.sbnation.com/2011-nfl-free-agency/2012/2/7/2782415/2012-nfl-free-agents).Which could be around $25 million in free cap space considering that Mario Williams' salary for 2011 was around $15-$19 million.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Some teams that may want him would be the Redskins and Seahawks (they tried to sign him last year).


I think because of his history, these may be our only suitors. If Kubiak feels strong about Matt (which I think he does), I think Shanahan will be favorable to the idea.

Carol has history with Leinart & their success together may help us work out a deal.

I like Tavaris Jackson, But I think Leinart can walk into Seattle (or Washington) expecting to be the starter, even if either team draft their QB or the future. At least he'll have time to "earn" a spot on another team, ala Drew Brees....... not saying Leinart is the next Brees. That's completely up to him.

Dutchrudder
02-11-2012, 04:13 PM
I think because of his history, these may be our only suitors. If Kubiak feels strong about Matt (which I think he does), I think Shanahan will be favorable to the idea.

Carol has history with Leinart & their success together may help us work out a deal.

I like Tavaris Jackson, But I think Leinart can walk into Seattle (or Washington) expecting to be the starter, even if either team draft their QB or the future. At least he'll have time to "earn" a spot on another team, ala Drew Brees....... not saying Leinart is the next Brees. That's completely up to him.

A lot of those teams interest in Lienart will also depend on day 1 and 2 of the draft. If either pick Tannehill or RG3, I don't think they will be interested in Lienart. However, if one of them does not get a QB by the end of the 2nd, I think they may be interested in getting him as a stopgap for a season.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 04:28 PM
A couple of interesting articles relating to the cap, restructuring, and how things work.

Salary cap becomes a factor once again (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/salary-cap-becomes-a-factor-once-again/)

Wow, the Raiders dumped Route..... whoever picks him up is going to get a good deal. Sure he struggled with all the man coverage he was asked to play, But he looks like he's got all the tools & appears to have a good understanding of the game.

May not have been worth the money they paid him..... but that's another story. Don't see how losing him & dealing with over $7M in dead money (according to that article) makes the Raiders a better team.


I'm just saying I haven't seen anything that's both concrete and credible in my mind saying where the Texans are on the whole, and until then, I'm making no assumptions either optimistic or pessimistic.

Absolutely. We have yet to get credible evidence of our situation.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 04:33 PM
That doesn't bother me nearly as much as how much money the other teams have to throw around.

True, imagine if the Tits dump Iniggan for Routt.....

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 04:40 PM
Logically the $116 they reported had to include EVERYBODY, because free agency doesn't start until March 13th. So I'm guessing we will have more cap space when the FAs come off the books.

you don't think maybe that $116M number is our without the FAs? Until we here different, that's what I'm going with. Before signing even our own FAs, we are $116M.

However, we were at or over $120M before we signed Jjo, Manning, & our draft picks, but we managed to sign them all & still be $5M under.

Now, if we are at $116 on March 13th, which is what I'm thinking they are saying, then we've got to sign Mario for a $4M 2012 cap number, which isn't going to happen...... so we should see other players cut or restructured in the next few weeks.

March 13th is only 5 weeks away.

dalemurphy
02-11-2012, 04:42 PM
I don't think either is wrong necessarily...

If you think about it I think you can develop some optimism. It says that we stand at about $116 million against the cap (Jason La Canfora reported us at about $118 million (http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/29/updated-salary-cap-space-numbers-for-all-32-teams/)). So there is not too much variation there. We know the cap was $120.375 million in 2011, so it will be AT LEAST $120.375 million in 2012. So let's say the cap will be $120.375 million. Logically the $116 they reported had to include EVERYBODY, because free agency doesn't start until March 13th. So I'm guessing we will have more cap space when the FAs come off the books. I believe we have 17 FAs (http://www.sbnation.com/2011-nfl-free-agency/2012/2/7/2782415/2012-nfl-free-agents).Which could be around $25 million in free cap space considering that Mario Williams' salary for 2011 was around $15-$19 million.


Realize, also, that most existing salaries will escalate. And, the new Chris Myers deal will almost certainly be more costly than the previous one.

More to the point, though, is our plan for 2013. Are the Texans going to allow Duane Brown, Connor Barwin, Arian Foster, Matt Schaub, and others to get to next season and be scheduled UFAs? I'm sure the Texans are going to lock at least 2 of those guys up... and that will take some cap room.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 04:48 PM
A lot of those teams interest in Lienart will also depend on day 1 and 2 of the draft. If either pick Tannehill or RG3, I don't think they will be interested in Lienart. However, if one of them does not get a QB by the end of the 2nd, I think they may be interested in getting him as a stopgap for a season.

If I'm Washington or Seattle, I'm thinking Leinart is a stop gap from the beginning. I'm also thinking RGIII may be the future, but I want to be smart about putting him on the field.

I don't want to throw him out there because of necessity, if I can get 6 to 10 weeks of Leinart, then that's really all I want. a 5th/6th round pick for a QB that gives us a chance to win over the first 6 weeks or so.

That gives me 6 weeks or more to understand what RGIII can & can't do. Allows me to work out the tweaks we'll need to help him be successful. If Leinart has me in play-off contention after 6 weeks...... 4-2 or better.. then RGIII continues to study & prove to me he has what it takes to be successful at this level.

Even at week 10, if we've got 8 wins (playing the Cowboys twice, it's possible for the 'skins) I'm riding Leinart.

Come the end of the season, if Leinart was a big part of that success (after a play-off run), then I'm sitting on RGIII another season. If, however, I think RGIII can contribute more than Leinart, then I parlay that 5th/6th round pick into a 3rd, maybe a 4th.

This GM stuff is easy, where do I pick up an application?
:kitten:

badboy
02-11-2012, 06:31 PM
you don't think maybe that $116M number is our without the FAs? Until we here different, that's what I'm going with. Before signing even our own FAs, we are $116M.

However, we were at or over $120M before we signed Jjo, Manning, & our draft picks, but we managed to sign them all & still be $5M under.

Now, if we are at $116 on March 13th, which is what I'm thinking they are saying, then we've got to sign Mario for a $4M 2012 cap number, which isn't going to happen...... so we should see other players cut or restructured in the next few weeks.

March 13th is only 5 weeks away.Didn't the Texans adjust some contracts to sign Manning & Joseph? To me that indicates they were not over cap then by much.

cbs1507
02-11-2012, 07:15 PM
you don't think maybe that $116M number is our without the FAs? Until we here different, that's what I'm going with. Before signing even our own FAs, we are $116M.

However, we were at or over $120M before we signed Jjo, Manning, & our draft picks, but we managed to sign them all & still be $5M under.

Now, if we are at $116 on March 13th, which is what I'm thinking they are saying, then we've got to sign Mario for a $4M 2012 cap number, which isn't going to happen...... so we should see other players cut or restructured in the next few weeks.

March 13th is only 5 weeks away.

This is the last time I am going to post this...

According to the CBA Article 11 (entitled Transition Rules for the 2011 League Season) Section 5(a) it says

"Top 51 Rule. The Top 51 Rule applies beginning at 4:00pm on August 5, 2011. All Clubs must be within the Salary Cap at that time."

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

There is no possible way that 17 FA's will leave us with that little amount of space. Especially if Mario Williams made around $15-$19 million. That would suggest that we were OVER the cap, when in fact the CBA says ALL TEAMS must be under.

Furthermore, the CBA outlines sanctions to be imposed if a team violates the salary cap rules in Article 14 Section 6. So if we were over you have to have proof that the NFL imposed sanctions on the Texans for the 2011 season for violating the salary cap. I have yet to see anything indicating this.

Let's be logical. If we are around $116 million right now WITHOUT our FAs on the books, then how are we going to sign ANYBODY let alone Mario Williams? That's essentially saying we have $4 million cap space to sign Foster, Myers and Brisiel (so you can forget about Mario). Come on man. They all going to walk if that's the case. Foster will likely command around $9-$10 million. No way we giving Myers or Brisiel a pay raise like some people on here suggest if that was true.

So I think it is very reasonable to believe that we will have a decent amount of cap space to work with come March 13th.

thunderkyss
02-11-2012, 07:28 PM
This is the last time I am going to post this...


whoa, pull up CB, I respect you & everything, but I dont know what the salary situation is of the remaining players on our roster is. Is it possible that the remaining 36 players slary equals $116M

Yeah, that sounds silly doesn't it.

badboy
02-11-2012, 07:34 PM
This is the last time I am going to post this...

According to the CBA Article 11 (entitled Transition Rules for the 2011 League Season) Section 5(a) it says



http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

There is no possible way that 17 FA's will leave us with that little amount of space. Especially if Mario Williams made around $15-$19 million. That would suggest that we were OVER the cap, when in fact the CBA says ALL TEAMS must be under.

Furthermore, the CBA outlines sanctions to be imposed if a team violates the salary cap rules in Article 14 Section 6. So if we were over you have to have proof that the NFL imposed sanctions on the Texans for the 2011 season for violating the salary cap. I have yet to see anything indicating this.

Let's be logical. If we are around $116 million right now WITHOUT our FAs on the books, then how are we going to sign ANYBODY let alone Mario Williams? That's essentially saying we have $4 million cap space to sign Foster, Myers and Brisiel (so you can forget about Mario). Come on man. They all going to walk if that's the case. Foster will likely command around $9-$10 million. No way we giving Myers or Brisiel a pay raise like some people on here suggest if that was true.

So I think it is very reasonable to believe that we will have a decent amount of cap space to work with come March 13th.ANd this has been my question as Allegedly Bob McNair owner told John McClain of Houston Chronicle that teams was over the cap significantly 2011. McClain has said in paper and on radio that $20m was the amount.

Dutchrudder
02-11-2012, 07:37 PM
If I'm Washington or Seattle, I'm thinking Leinart is a stop gap from the beginning. I'm also thinking RGIII may be the future, but I want to be smart about putting him on the field.

I don't want to throw him out there because of necessity, if I can get 6 to 10 weeks of Leinart, then that's really all I want. a 5th/6th round pick for a QB that gives us a chance to win over the first 6 weeks or so.

That gives me 6 weeks or more to understand what RGIII can & can't do. Allows me to work out the tweaks we'll need to help him be successful. If Leinart has me in play-off contention after 6 weeks...... 4-2 or better.. then RGIII continues to study & prove to me he has what it takes to be successful at this level.

Even at week 10, if we've got 8 wins (playing the Cowboys twice, it's possible for the 'skins) I'm riding Leinart.

Come the end of the season, if Leinart was a big part of that success (after a play-off run), then I'm sitting on RGIII another season. If, however, I think RGIII can contribute more than Leinart, then I parlay that 5th/6th round pick into a 3rd, maybe a 4th.

This GM stuff is easy, where do I pick up an application?
:kitten:

Well they both have QBs that can fulfill that role already, Jackson and Beck. Grossman and Whitehurst are both UFAs this offseason, so they may be willing to trade for Lienart. Adding a QB of the future is what they both need to do, and for some reason the Seahawks thought Lienart could help them last year. So if someone wants him, I'd be willing to ship him off and save a couple million in capspace.