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View Full Version : Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts


76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:05 AM
A few had asked me to study (among other things) how Mario lined up this past year.

I've been in the process of going through all the screen shots of all the plays, starting with the Colts game (but didn't count on being so detailed as this) so I thought I might as well at least do one game.
....


There were things that other teams have to be concern with Mario in the line-up.
The Colts mostly tried to run away from him.
When they tried to run at him, the RB ended up having to cut back.

In the pass rush, there were a lot of times where Mario almost got to the QB (remember the thing we said that a QB - like Schaub - needs to get rid of the ball in 3 secs. - well, keep that in mind.)

Also, you will see that there were times they double and even triple team him.

OK, here goes:

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:07 AM
First quarter.

Indianapolis Colts at 14:03

1-10-IND 40 (14:03) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short left to R.Wayne to IND 45 for 5 yards (G.Quin).
MW at WILL, edge rushed.
Ball left Collins' hand in just over 1 sec; ball arrived in receiver's hand in less than 2 secs.

2-5-IND 45 (13:36) J.Addai up the middle to HST 44 for 11 yards (D.Manning). R1
MW at SAM, pushes TE Clark into RB.
Addai was forced to cut back; but JJWatt and Cushing over-pursued.

1-10-HST 44 (13:01) J.Addai right guard to HST 42 for 2 yards (D.Ryans; A.Smith).
MW at WILL, set the edge with a club move to the RT; Addai cut back due to Watt's penetration.

2-8-HST 42 (12:21) K.Collins sacked at IND 49 for -9 yards (M.Williams).
2-TE set, Mario beat TE Clark for the sack.

3-17-IND 49 (11:44) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short right to J.Addai to HST 48 for 3 yards (J.Watt).
MW LDE bull rushed to the inside.
Colts set up a quick screen pass that went nowhere.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:18 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 4:27, (1st play from scrimmage 4:21)

1-10-IND 19 (4:21) K.Collins sacked at IND 14 for -5 yards (A.Smith). FUMBLES (A.Smith), RECOVERED by HST-S.Cody at IND 12. S.Cody to IND 12 for no gain (A.Castonzo)
2-TE set. MW at ROLB edge rushed against LT (TE released.)
RB showed a chip block to slow down Mario.
Watt & Cody absorbed the combo blocks RT, RG & C.
Smith was one on one with the LG.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:19 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 2:56

1-10-IND 20 (2:56) K.Collins FUMBLES (Aborted) at IND 20, RECOVERED by HST-J.Watt at IND 20. J.Watt to IND 18 for 2 yards (J.Addai).
MW at WILL.
Looks like the Colts was to try to option Mario and run away from him.
(LT crashed inside, leaving Mario unblocked.)

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:20 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 1:41

1-10-IND 20 (1:41) J.Addai left guard to IND 20 for no gain (E.Mitchell).
MW at WILL, set the edge against LT.
JJ Watt beat the RT from the other side.
These two contained the RB to the inside.

2-10-IND 20 (1:07) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass deep left to R.Wayne ran ob at IND 37 for 17 yards (J.Allen). P2
2-TE set, MW at ROLB, double-teamed by LT and TE on the edge rush.

1-10-IND 37 (:47) J.Addai left tackle to 50 for 13 yards (J.Allen). R3
MW at WILL; the Colts optioned him and ran to the other side (to the left.)

1-10-50 (:12) J.Addai left tackle to HST 44 for 6 yards (M.Williams).
PENALTY on IND-J.Reitz, Personal Foul, 15 yards, enforced at 50 - No Play.
2-TE set. MW at ROLB, lined-up very wide and did a decent job at setting the edge.
Demeco needs to flow to his gap a little quicker (to get outside of the LT); instead he let the LT pancake him.
Mario came back to make the stop.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:21 AM
2nd Qtr

1-25-IND 35 (15:00) D.Carter up the middle to IND 42 for 7 yards (D.Ryans).
2-TE set. MW at ROLB, again lining up very wide and was not involved in the play.LILB Cushing needs to get to his gap a little sooner.

2-18-IND 42 (14:24) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short left to R.Wayne to IND 49 for 7 yards (D.Ryans).
2-TE set, however, RTE Clark lined up in the right slot.
MW at ROLB (inside Clark).
They left Mario unblocked to throw a quick receiver screen to Wayne.
Clark released to block.

3-11-IND 49 (13:40) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short right to D.Clark to HST 49 for 2 yards (G.Quin).
Colts in single-back shotgun spread.
Texans were in dime.
2 down-linemen.
JJ Watt lined up between the RT and the RG.
Smith at NT, just shading the C toward the RG's side.
Mario at LOLB (outside the RT)
Texans brought Manning up to the outside of Mario for a blitz (that forced Collins to throw a quick pass.)
Watt stunted to the outside, while Mario went inside.
He was picked up by the RG and then was also blocked by the RB.
This set Manning free.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:23 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 6:57

1-10-IND 20 (6:57) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short right to D.Clark.
MW at WILL; edge rushed but then bulled the RT toward the QB.
Watt pushed the RG onto the ground (hindering Mario's path.)
All this was good enough to forced Collins into a hurried/poor throw.
Barwin at SAM followed the TE.

2-10-IND 20 (6:52) J.Addai right end to IND 18 for -2 yards (J.Joseph, B.Cushing).
MW at WILL;
Colts ran away from him.

3-12-IND 18 (6:52) (Shotgun) PENALTY on IND-K.Collins, Delay of Game, 5 yards, enforced at IND 18 - No Play.

3-17-IND 13 (5:46) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete deep right to A.Collie.
MW at 43 WDE (LDE), edge rushed and ran the arc around the RT.
He would have gotten to Collins in about 3-1/2 secs (from behind) had Collins not let the ball fly.
A little late, but better than being neutralized.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:24 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 1:34

1-10-IND 20 (1:34) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short left to R.Wayne pushed ob at IND 33 for 13 yards (K.Jackson). P4
With the Colts at their 20 and 1:34 to go in the half, Texans went to their dime package (4-man front and a single LB); they also played straight zone.
MW at SDE (RDE); TE released so MW edge/bull rushed the RT and would have gotten to Collins in about 2-1/2 secs.But the Texans zone was a little soft, allowing Collins to complete the quick pass.

1-10-IND 33 (1:29) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short right to P.Garcon [A.Smith].
Same thing. This time, Collins saw Smith beating the RG and Mario coming around the RT.
He threw the ball away. (MW at 43 SDE).

2-10-IND 33 (1:24) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short left to J.Addai.
MW at 43SDE like the previous plays.
Edge rushed but was neutralized by the RT.
Barwin at WDE forced the poor throw.

3-10-IND 33 (1:18) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short middle to R.Wayne (G.Quin) [J.Watt].
Similar play as above. SDE Mario was neutralized by the RT.
This time, Watt beat the LG and forced the early throw.
WDE Barwin also did well against the LT
It took Quin to deflect the ball, however.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:26 AM
3rd Qtr

Indianapolis Colts at 15:00

1-10-IND 20 (15:00) K.Collins pass short right to P.Garcon to IND 37 for 17 yards (J.Joseph, G.Quin). P6
MW at WILL, bull rushed, neutralized by pulling RG.

1-10-IND 37 (14:27) J.Addai up the middle to IND 44 for 7 yards (J.Watt).
MW at WILL, set the edge on RT;
Addai cut back to the other side (even thought the game stats indicate a run up the middle.)

2-3-IND 44 (13:52) K.Collins pass short right to D.Clark to HST 39 for 17 yards (B.Cushing). P7
MW at WILL, double-teamed by LT and RB

1-10-HST 39 (13:17) J.Addai right end to HST 49 for -10 yards.
PENALTY on IND-B.Eldridge, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at HST 39 - No Play.
MW at WILL; the Colts optioned him and ran an outside zone run strong side (away from Mario).

1-20-HST 49 (12:54) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short right to J.Addai .
MW at 43 WDE, edge rushed the RT; he was neutralized initially.
Barwin forced Collins out of the pocket.
[B]MW chased after him, but Cushing got there first to force Collins to throw the ball away.

2-20-HST 49 (12:44) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short right to P.Garcon.
MW at 43 WDE again; bull rushed the RT toward the QB; RG came back to help.
Collins was forced to throw the ball early and inaccurately out of bound.

3-20-HST 49 (12:40) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short right to J.Addai pushed ob at HST 39 for 10 yards (J.Joseph).
MW at 43 WDE again.
He stunted to the inside as Antonio occupied both the RG & RT.
Collins dumped a quick pass to the safety valve (Addai) in the right flat.
He didn't want to get sacked by Mario.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:28 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 8:23

1-10-IND 20 (8:23) D.Carter left guard to IND 22 for 2 yards (D.Sharpton).
Reed was in at SAM (Mario not in line-up for 6 plays).

2-8-IND 22 (7:49) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass deep middle to R.Wayne to IND 44 for 22 yards (D.Sharpton) [C.Barwin]. P8
Reed was in at SAM (Mario not in line-up).

1-10-IND 44 (7:13) K.Collins pass incomplete short left to R.Wayne.
Same as above.

2-10-IND 44 (7:08) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short right to P.Garcon to HST 45 for 11 yards (J.Joseph; B.Cushing) [A.Smith]. P9
Same as above.

1-10-HST 45 (6:38) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short right to J.Tamme.
Reed at 43 WDE, Barwin at SDE

2-10-HST 45 (6:34) (Shotgun) PENALTY on IND-J.Linkenbach, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at HST 45 - No Play.

2-15-50 (6:34) (Shotgun) D.Carter left guard to HST 49 for 1 yard (B.Cushing).
MW back in at 43 SDE' edge rush on Clark.
Colts ran the other way.

3-14-HST 49 (5:47) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short right [M.Williams].
PENALTY on IND-K.Collins, Intentional Grounding, 20 yards, enforced at HST 49.
In a peculiar 3-man front, MW lined up as a 34 WDE, but far outside the RT (a 9-tech with hand down.)
He came in very quickly to force Collins out of the pocket.
Collins threw the ball away as Mario put him on the turf.
Antonio at NT, Watt at 34 SDE (but also outside the LT).
Texans were in dime (only 2 LBs: Reed and Demeco).
Reed was at SAM (outside Watt) but stunted inside.MW
Demeco was the MO (but came up to the line, just inside Mario, but also outside the RT.)
Manning came in on a safety blitz on the opposite side of Mario (6-man blitz.)

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:32 AM
Fourth Qtr

Indianapolis Colts at 14:17

1-10-IND 37 (14:17) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short right to P.Garcon to IND 48 for 11 yards (J.Joseph). P10
MW at 43 SDE, lining up outside the TE.
The Colts slowed him down by:
a. Running the TE across his face.
b. Having the RT picking him up.
c. Having Addai help cutting off the outside edge rush.

1-10-IND 48 (13:38) J.Addai left guard to 50 for 2 yards (J.Watt, T.Jamison).
MW at 43 SDE again.
Addai ran the other way.

2-8-50 (13:02) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short left to D.Clark to HST 43 for 7 yards (D.Sharpton, G.Quin).
MW at SDE again. (Clark lined up in the slot on the other side.)
The Colts blocked MW with the second TE (Eldridge), and the RT helping.
They also ran Addai this way to get into Mario's way.
Collins threw a quick receiver screen to Clark on the other side.

3-1-HST 43 (12:22) D.Carter up the middle to HST 40 for 3 yards (J.Watt). R11
2-TE set (same side) with a FB.
MW at WILL, he pushed the FB back.
Colts ran strong side off RG (away from Mario as the norm.)

1-10-HST 40 (11:46) K.Collins pass incomplete deep middle to P.Garcon (J.Joseph).
PENALTY on HST-D.Manning, Personal Foul, 15 yards, enforced at HST 40 - No Play.
MW at 43 WDE; got past the RT on an edge rush.
Collins stepped up the pocket and barely got the ball off.

1-10-HST 25 (11:39) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short left to R.Wayne.
MW at 43 SDE.
He jammed and followed the TE on a short route as the Texans came in with a 5-man zone blitz. First drop into coverage by Mario.
Collins was looking first at Wayne, but he was doubled-up by Allen and Manning (invert cover 2 on that side; Manning can also jump on the TE if he runs a crossing route).
Quin played deep middle; he can help Mario on any deep route by the TE and also McCain in the slot.

2-10-HST 25 (11:31) J.Addai up the middle to HST 19 for 6 yards (B.Cushing, D.Ryans).
MW at 43 SDE.
They started by optioning Mario to run to the other side (left.)
Clark then came back to seal off Mario.
Texans cut off the POA; Addai cut back to outside RT.
Cushing did a decent job geting back (he overpursued a little.)
Mario had to make sure that the QB doesn't have the ball (possible bootleg here.)

3-4-HST 19 (10:49) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete deep right to P.Garcon.
Texans in nickel.
2-man line.
MW at WILL and Barwin at SAM (Demeco and Cushing at ILBs)
Mario beat the RT in about 2 secs.
Collins saw this and stepped up the pocket.
He couldn't wait and sailed a pass over Garcon who had beaten JJo in the right corner.
JJo took a peek into the backfield.
QB Hurry by Mario here saved JJo and a TD.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:33 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 10:27

1-10-HST 13 (10:27) D.Carter right tackle to HST 11 for 2 yards (D.Ryans, B.Cushing).
MW at WILL, spied on the QB.
Colts brought the TE Clark from the other side to cut block on a counter run (run away).
Demeco filled the gap well.

2-8-HST 11 (9:48) (Shotgun) PENALTY on HST-E.Mitchell, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at HST 11 - No Play.


(9:25) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short left to R.Wayne for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
The Replay Assistant challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld.
Texans in zero coverage to bring a 7-man blitz.
MW at WILL, beat the LT in just over 1 sec, and would have gotten to Collins in just 2 secs.Collins, however, was able to fire a quick lob pass to Wayne in the left corner.
Quin got beat.

76Texan
01-30-2012, 02:36 AM
Indianapolis Colts at 6:57

1-10-IND 39 (6:57) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass deep middle to R.Wayne to HST 25 for 36 yards (D.Manning). P14
Mario not in line-up for 4 plays, starting with this one.
Texans in 2-deep 5-underneath zone.
Looks like McCain thought it was man and vacated his zone to follow his receiver (whom Quin had cut ott.)
Collins found Wayne wide open in the underneath hook/curl zone on a catch-and-run.
Texans in 4-2 nickle.
Barwin at 43 SDE, Reed at 43 WDE.

1-10-HST 25 (6:26) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass short middle to D.Clark to HST 12 for 13 yards (B.Cushing). P15
Same defensive formation.
Mario not in line-up
Poor read by Sharpton (WILL) vacating his zone.

1-10-HST 12 (6:02) (Shotgun) J.Addai up the middle to HST 11 for 1 yard (B.Cushing).
PENALTY on HST-C.Barwin, Defensive Delay of Game, 5 yards, enforced at HST 12 - No Play.
Mario not in line-up
Great job by Jamison.

1-5-HST 7 (5:49) K.Collins pass incomplete short middle to A.Collie (B.McCain).
Mario not in line-up
All-out blitz. Good coverage by JJo, KJ and Quin allowed the pressure to force Collins to throw the ball away.

2-5-HST 7 (5:44) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete short left to A.Collie.
Timeout #1 by IND at 05:38.
Mario back in line-up.
MW at 43 SDE, pushed TE into the pocket in 2 secs.
Collins slid to his left (away from Mario's side and almost completed the pass for a TD.
Collie had beaten McCain, but he barely had his right sole on the end line.

3-5-HST 7 (5:38) (Shotgun) K.Collins sacked at HST 16 for -9 yards (M.Williams). FUMBLES (M.Williams), recovered by IND-J.Saturday at HST 16. J.Saturday to HST 16 for no gain (C.Barwin).
MW at 43 SDE.
He simply ran right past Clark to sack the QB in less than 1-1/2 secs and forced a fumble, but the C recovered the ball.


4-14-HST 16 (4:55) (Shotgun) K.Collins pass incomplete deep left to R.Wayne.
MW at 43 WDE and dropped back to the middle in coverage.
Texans brought both Cushing and Demeco down on a 5-man zone blitz.
KJ with good coverage on Wayne.
Cushing came hard around the LT.
Addai should have tried to stay all the way to help, but decided to slip out in hope of a screen pass, but Collins had to throw the ball away.

Txn_in_Oki
01-30-2012, 04:29 AM
Thanks for the review, rep your way.

I know there's haters out there, maybe I'm missing the point, but Mario in the lineup that we had this year will be crazy.

By no means do I want to give up Arian, but we do have Tate... ugh... I hate salary caps.

:slapfight:

mussop
01-30-2012, 04:32 AM
I don't have any idea what you are trying to prove here but for the life of me I can't imagine why you would pick the colts. They were the worst team in the entire league! They had a starting QB that didn't even fully know the offense when we played them and if I remember correctly two OL starters out for that game. What could you possibly learn from that game that would be benificial?

You might as well be breaking down an allstar game.

Txn_in_Oki
01-30-2012, 04:37 AM
I don't have any idea what you are trying to prove here but for the life of me I can't imagine why you would pick the colts. They were the worst team in the entire league! They had a starting QB that didn't even fully know the offense when we played them and if I remember correctly two OL starters out for that game. What could you possibly learn from that game that would be benificial?

You might as well be breaking down an allstar game.

I think he's going to break all the games that Mario played in this year, not just the Colts. You start with the first and it can set a pattern as to how teams line up against him which can show if he's being treated as a dominant player or just meh.

If he's dominant then what does a healthy Mario bring to the number 2 defense in the league?

Lucky
01-30-2012, 07:58 AM
I don't have any idea what you are trying to prove here but for the life of me I can't imagine why you would pick the colts.

You might as well be breaking down an allstar game.

Are we going to discount Barwin's 4 sack game in Jacksonville because Blaine Gabbert was the QB? If sacking Collins was so easy, why is Mario the only Texan with 2 Sacks?

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 08:29 AM
Are we going to discount Barwin's 4 sack game in Jacksonville because Blaine Gabbert was the QB? If sacking Collins was so easy, why is Mario the only Texan with 2 Sacks?


I'm willing to pay Mario the same amount of money we pay Connor Barwin, Lucky.

My issue with Mario is not how he played vs. Indy the past few seassons. What concerns me is the way he played against New Orleans. Or, the dog of a game he had vs. San Diego last year... This isn't about statistics either. If you watch those games (and others), Mario can't be bothered to put forth effort. He doesn't chase down plays, go to the whistle, or pursue on the back side of plays like every other Texan defender does. That's not what the 2011 Texans' defense is about and that's why the Texans will cut him loose. At least, that's why they should.

Also, show me a game against a good tackle where he played well in the past three seasons... Against Miami (Jake Long), it was Barwin who beat Long for a sack, not Mario. Mario's underdeveloped catalog of pass rush moves and his frame that limits his ability to be a true speed rusher make him relatively easy prey for the better tackles in the league.

Ole Miss Texan
01-30-2012, 10:08 AM
Thanks 76! I'd rep you more if I could!

I'm one (of several) that asked 76 if he could do a little studying of Mario for us. This is yet another huge offseason for the Texans and what we do with Mario clearly plays a SIGNIFICANT role in the direction our team goes.

I think most are in agreement that we're a better defense with Mario... the debate just gets into the cost of having him. Which I think is a really good debate and a tough one.

The thing with Mario is he's so versatile and a really good weapon for Wade. What I wanted to see most of all, and asked 76 to do, is see where Wade had Mario line up on each play. And as more games are analyzed we'll start to see a better picture of this: as a DE or OLB in 4-3 and 3-4 defense. His ability to play both DEs in the 3-4, both DEs in the 4-3 and both OLBs in the 3-4 is what makes him a little more valuable, to me, than I think most other fans.

I think this is the kind of stuff that Rick Smith & Co. are looking at to determine what direction they go in with Mario. Most fans see a $ sign and his "OLB" position and draw a conclusion. I think its much more complicated than that.

El Tejano
01-30-2012, 11:32 AM
Let's see, Mario is a good pass rusher and it's hard to find those. Yet he hasn't played a full season in a while and is hurt one way or the other.

Arian is an outstanding runninback that has been nothing less than exceptional. However, the avg RB shelf life of success is around 4 years and Arian has had two and one with a nagging hamstring issue.......

Texan_Bill
01-30-2012, 11:35 AM
This year aside, Mario has only missed three games in his entire career.

Ole Miss Texan
01-30-2012, 12:06 PM
Let's see, Mario is a good pass rusher and it's hard to find those. Yet he hasn't played a full season in a while and is hurt one way or the other.

Arian is an outstanding runninback that has been nothing less than exceptional. However, the avg RB shelf life of success is around 4 years and Arian has had two and one with a nagging hamstring issue.......

This year aside, Mario has only missed three games in his entire career.

Very true. I hope we can keep this thread as a "Mario position / on field" type of informative thread and not yet another Salary / Cap Ramifications one. Different threads, different purposes.

Playoffs
01-30-2012, 12:12 PM
Also, you will see that there were times they double and even triple team him.Bingo. And that's the answer to the $64,000 question.

Great stuff, 76. Repped.

dc_txtech
01-30-2012, 12:44 PM
This year aside, Mario has only missed three games in his entire career.

To add on to this, before missing those 3 games Mario was the only player from the '06 draft class that started every single game to that point.

Thanks a bunch 76 I always love reading your breakdowns.

BigBull17
01-30-2012, 12:52 PM
I'm willing to pay Mario the same amount of money we pay Connor Barwin, Lucky.

My issue with Mario is not how he played vs. Indy the past few seassons. What concerns me is the way he played against New Orleans. Or, the dog of a game he had vs. San Diego last year... This isn't about statistics either. If you watch those games (and others), Mario can't be bothered to put forth effort. He doesn't chase down plays, go to the whistle, or pursue on the back side of plays like every other Texan defender does. That's not what the 2011 Texans' defense is about and that's why the Texans will cut him loose. At least, that's why they should.

Also, show me a game against a good tackle where he played well in the past three seasons... Against Miami (Jake Long), it was Barwin who beat Long for a sack, not Mario. Mario's underdeveloped catalog of pass rush moves and his frame that limits his ability to be a true speed rusher make him relatively easy prey for the better tackles in the league.

Three words. Blah. Blah. Blah. Nothing you say in any Mario Williams discusion holds any relevence. Thats a simple fact. The fact that you think Mario is more expendable to our defense than Connor Barwin says everything people need to know about your anger and aggression towards Mario. Not a single personel guy in the entire NFL would pick BArwin over Mario, and that is a simple fact.

I did say that if the defense didn't lose anything I would be ok with Mario being traded, and I ment it. If you do this, you have to get a rotational guy in the draft or FA. Wont really be a FA one avaliable. Dispite the fact that Mario stole your lunch money one time, he is one of the best defensive players we have, and its not easy to just cut bait and replace him.

BigBull17
01-30-2012, 12:55 PM
Also, you will see that there were times they double and even triple team him.

:

NEVER! He is single blocked by high school WR's or VY every play of every game!

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 01:00 PM
Bingo. And that's the answer to the $64,000 question.

Great stuff, 76. Repped.

I always appreciate 76Texan's work. That doesn't mean I always agree with it.

1. Nobody every gets triple teamed. Occasionally, a player defeats a double team and then gets picked up in the backfield. Usually, however, when a player consumes three blocks it is a stunt designed to free another rusher. The Texans have run twists and stunts for years having Mario crash inside and take up as many blocks and attention as possible and looping a DT behind him to the outside. Let's not confuse those with an opposing team going into a game attempting to give him that much focus and attention. Certainly, though, Mario's physical stature and reputation will tend to draw the attention of the linemen moreso than someone like Jesse Nading.

2. Our front 7 was all over Indy that day. It wasn't just Mario. Both of Mario's sacks were a result of good defensive design, bad QB play and/or miscommunication from the Indy offense... Both his sacks were in 1 on 1 situations vs. Dallas Clark. I doubt than any of those critical of Mario would deny he is often dominant in those situations and has a very good ability to finish when given an opportunity like that.

3. Any player that will consume over 10% of the team's cap should be an irreplaceable element to the team. We can argue all we want about how good Mario is or isn't. But, he certainly is not essential for this defense to be a dominant unit. Give me quality depth and room to re-sign the rest of the team and I'll take a great defense without Mario over a great defense with Mario but a team in cap trouble heading into 2013.

Please don't bring up Andre Johnson. Anyone intellectually honest can see that the Texans offense is much more limited without him. Regardless, he is cheaper than Mario will be and is already signed for the next 6 years... making it a moot point.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 01:09 PM
Three words. Blah. Blah. Blah. Nothing you say in any Mario Williams discusion holds any relevence. Thats a simple fact. The fact that you think Mario is more expendable to our defense than Connor Barwin says everything people need to know about your anger and aggression towards Mario. Not a single personel guy in the entire NFL would pick BArwin over Mario, and that is a simple fact.

I did say that if the defense didn't lose anything I would be ok with Mario being traded, and I ment it. If you do this, you have to get a rotational guy in the draft or FA. Wont really be a FA one avaliable. Dispite the fact that Mario stole your lunch money one time, he is one of the best defensive players we have, and its not easy to just cut bait and replace him.


That's an interesting tactic. If someone disagrees with you, then argue that person must be wrong and their opinions aren't relevant. I love how people also quote all 32 teams' GMs and personnel people as if they know what is in their minds. I'm willing to bet that their are some NFL people that like Barwin more than Mario. Why are you so confident there isn't?

1. I'm suggesting Connor Barwin is a much better value than Mario... not a better player. That being said, I would rather have Barwin as my starting OLB in a 3-4. Going into the season, I liked the idea of Mario playing DE in a 3-4. I don't like him at OLB very much.

2. I've been pretty dead on regarding Connor Barwin. Before the season began (before he even won the starting gig over Reed), I predicted a 10+ sack season for Barwin.

By the way, we can't trade Mario. We sign him to a long term deal or he signs somewhere else. I'm hoping for the latter. Our return is the money under the cap that we get to distribute to other free agents as well as guys like Foster, Myers, Brisiel, Dreessen, and the huge group of 2013 free agents like Schaub, Barwin, Quin, Casey, Duane Brown, etc...

srrono
01-30-2012, 01:25 PM
Mario is a beastly disruptive player

Barwin was a spot player 1st yr
then mised his 2nd yr
played every game as a starter in 2011

Reed was a rookie who know has a yr of great exp

Watt was a rookie who know has a yr of great exp

What i am trying to say we had 3 young players who got a lot of playing and played at a high level.

We have that learning year behind them and you add a Mario, an offseason next year this def is going to wreck people.

I want Mario back because I want to see what Wade wants to do with him plus with the teams I see we will be playing next year the Texans will need all thier weapons.

1. Houston Texans Home: Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, Buffalo Bills, Miami Dolphins, Baltimore Ravens, Green Bay Packers, Minnesota Vikings

Away: Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, New England Patriots, New York Jets, Denver Broncos, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 01:32 PM
Mario is a beastly disruptive player

Barwin was a spot player 1st yr
then mised his 2nd yr
played every game as a starter in 2011

Reed was a rookie who know has a yr of great exp

Watt was a rookie who know has a yr of great exp

What i am trying to say we had 3 young players who got a lot of playing and played at a high level.

We have that learning year behind them and you add a Mario, an offseason next year this def is going to wreck people.

I want Mario back because I want to see what Wade wants to do with him plus with the teams I see we will be playing next year the Texans will need all thier weapons.

1. Houston Texans Home: Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, Buffalo Bills, Miami Dolphins, Baltimore Ravens, Green Bay Packers, Minnesota Vikings

Away: Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, New England Patriots, New York Jets, Denver Broncos, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions

Just don't be surprised if Wade doesn't want him back. He has said a lot about this defense being about "tenacity", "intensity", "effort", and "determination"... none of which are words that describe Mario on the football field, relative to the rest of the team. I think the tea leaves are out there that the Texans are not planning to make a hard run at him. My guess is they will offer him a deal nowhere near market value, and he'll reject it and end up cashing in and playing for a traditional 4-3 team.

kiwitexansfan
01-30-2012, 01:32 PM
Let's see, Mario is a good pass rusher and it's hard to find those. Yet he hasn't played a full season in a while and is hurt one way or the other.

Arian is an outstanding runninback that has been nothing less than exceptional. However, the avg RB shelf life of success is around 4 years and Arian has had two and one with a nagging hamstring issue.......

Exactly, let them both go and lock up Duane Brown and Chris Myers.

beerlover
01-30-2012, 01:38 PM
Let's see, Mario is a good pass rusher and it's hard to find those. Yet he hasn't played a full season in a while and is hurt one way or the other.

Arian is an outstanding runninback that has been nothing less than exceptional. However, the avg RB shelf life of success is around 4 years and Arian has had two and one with a nagging hamstring issue.......

Maybe they can get something for Andre Johnson too since he is on his last legs? Also if Texans tender Foster (restricted free agent) a 1st rd. grade & another team makes him a contract offer Texans choose not to match, Texans could add another first round pick.....:texflag:

now back to film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts :worldpeace:

BigBull17
01-30-2012, 02:37 PM
That's an interesting tactic. If someone disagrees with you, then argue that person must be wrong and their opinions aren't relevant. I love how people also quote all 32 teams' GMs and personnel people as if they know what is in their minds. I'm willing to bet that their are some NFL people that like Barwin more than Mario. Why are you so confident there isn't?

1. I'm suggesting Connor Barwin is a much better value than Mario... not a better player. That being said, I would rather have Barwin as my starting OLB in a 3-4. Going into the season, I liked the idea of Mario playing DE in a 3-4. I don't like him at OLB very much.

2. I've been pretty dead on regarding Connor Barwin. Before the season began (before he even won the starting gig over Reed), I predicted a 10+ sack season for Barwin.

By the way, we can't trade Mario. We sign him to a long term deal or he signs somewhere else. I'm hoping for the latter. Our return is the money under the cap that we get to distribute to other free agents as well as guys like Foster, Myers, Brisiel, Dreessen, and the huge group of 2013 free agents like Schaub, Barwin, Quin, Casey, Duane Brown, etc...

You are the only person I feel that way about. I will argue with people and respect their opinions even if I disagree. Not you. On this topic, you are not objective. You are heavily slanted and completly blind. So yeah, I take every sentence you say with a grain of salt.

You can trade Mario if you tag him. It isn't easy, since he will have a huge cap number, but if a team wanted exclusive negotiation rights and had the cap room, it is possible.

Mario was on his way to having a dominant season before the peck injury. On pace for 20 sacks and very active in the run game. These are facts. You can mention the Saints game, where if my memory serves me no one really got after the passer and say that he 'mails it in" vs good lines. But yet ignore the fact that every other game he played he was the dominant force. But, keep posting all your video clips of the "laziest player in Texans history" and say what you will, every word you say on this subject is truley irrelevant. nad I gurantee I am not the only person who rolls their eyes in a Mario thread when they see your post.

Dutchrudder
01-30-2012, 02:44 PM
That's an interesting tactic. If someone disagrees with you, then argue that person must be wrong and their opinions aren't relevant. I love how people also quote all 32 teams' GMs and personnel people as if they know what is in their minds. I'm willing to bet that their are some NFL people that like Barwin more than Mario. Why are you so confident there isn't?

1. I'm suggesting Connor Barwin is a much better value than Mario... not a better player. That being said, I would rather have Barwin as my starting OLB in a 3-4. Going into the season, I liked the idea of Mario playing DE in a 3-4. I don't like him at OLB very much.

2. I've been pretty dead on regarding Connor Barwin. Before the season began (before he even won the starting gig over Reed), I predicted a 10+ sack season for Barwin.

By the way, we can't trade Mario. We sign him to a long term deal or he signs somewhere else. I'm hoping for the latter. Our return is the money under the cap that we get to distribute to other free agents as well as guys like Foster, Myers, Brisiel, Dreessen, and the huge group of 2013 free agents like Schaub, Barwin, Quin, Casey, Duane Brown, etc...

You lost a lot of credibility on this issue when you started a thread about re-watching Mario disappearing in the Saints, Steelers and Baltimore thread. It's not outlandish for someone to discredit you over that thread. (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88032&highlight=balt)

b0ng
01-30-2012, 02:50 PM
Just don't be surprised if Wade doesn't want him back. He has said a lot about this defense being about "tenacity", "intensity", "effort", and "determination"... none of which are words that describe Mario on the football field, relative to the rest of the team. I think the tea leaves are out there that the Texans are not planning to make a hard run at him. My guess is they will offer him a deal nowhere near market value, and he'll reject it and end up cashing in and playing for a traditional 4-3 team.

"Because I don't think Mario Williams plays intense enough in my opinion, and because Wade Phillips used these words to describe what he wants for his defense, I am concluding that Wade does not want Mario Williams on his defense. These are facts. I am dalemurphy."

Do you now see why you get ragged on for your opinions?

BigBull17
01-30-2012, 02:53 PM
I would love to see 90 back. I also understand that sometimes, for the good of the team, good players have to walk. See also, Vonta Leach. When you are good, you lose people. I think somehow we will get a decent contract in place and Mario will be a texan, and I'll welcome it. You dont find players as flexable as he is every day.

eriadoc
01-30-2012, 02:54 PM
You lost a lot of credibility on this issue when you started a thread about re-watching Mario disappearing in the Saints, Steelers and Baltimore thread. It's not outlandish for someone to discredit you over that thread. (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88032&highlight=balt)

LOL, y'all need to stop feeding the troll. Just completely ignore and disregard anything he has to say on Mario Williams.

BigBull17
01-30-2012, 02:58 PM
LOL, y'all need to stop feeding the troll. Just completely ignore and disregard anything he has to say on Mario Williams.

It's hard sometimes. he's so fun to blast.

Dutchrudder
01-30-2012, 03:02 PM
LOL, y'all need to stop feeding the troll. Just completely ignore and disregard anything he has to say on Mario Williams.

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/wrong.jpg

BigBull17
01-30-2012, 03:20 PM
A few had asked me to study (among other things) how Mario lined up this past year.

I've been in the process of going through all the screen shots of all the plays, starting with the Colts game (but didn't count on being so detailed as this) so I thought I might as well at least do one game.
....


There were things that other teams have to be concern with Mario in the line-up.
The Colts mostly tried to run away from him.
When they tried to run at him, the RB ended up having to cut back.

In the pass rush, there were a lot of times where Mario almost got to the QB (remember the thing we said that a QB - like Schaub - needs to get rid of the ball in 3 secs. - well, keep that in mind.)

Also, you will see that there were times they double and even triple team him.

OK, here goes:

I'm sorry I derailed your thread like this. I'll try to keep it relevant from now on.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 04:06 PM
"Because I don't think Mario Williams plays intense enough in my opinion, and because Wade Phillips used these words to describe what he wants for his defense, I am concluding that Wade does not want Mario Williams on his defense. These are facts. I am dalemurphy."

Do you now see why you get ragged on for your opinions?

I never said my opinion is fact. I have argued my point and asserted my conclusion. I haven't attacked any of your characters nor have I even asserted that your opinions don't have credence. I even acknowledge the possibility that Mario is better than I think he is.

Still, people are horribly offended. My guess is that you are all worried enough that I may be on to something but don't want it to be true. You know, shoot the messenger to avoid the bad news.

I have never argued that Mario isn't a productive pass rusher nor have I argued that he is incapable of a 14 or 15 sack season. In this system and if he can stay healthy, I believe it is very possible. My argument is that his motor is inconsistent, he does not do well against the better offensive linemen because of his dearth of pass rush moves, and his presence on the field does not make this defense better. I believe the versatility of Barwin and Reed at the OLB position more than makes up for less sack production. Therefore, I believe it is unwise to allow Mario to consume 10% of the team's cap when that money could be used more wisely.

I don't understand what is so controversial about these opinions.

Blake
01-30-2012, 04:07 PM
NEVER! He is single blocked by high school WR's or VY every play of every game!

My friend says he saw him get blown over by a strong gust of wind. True story.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 04:10 PM
I would love to see 90 back. I also understand that sometimes, for the good of the team, good players have to walk. See also, Vonta Leach. When you are good, you lose people. I think somehow we will get a decent contract in place and Mario will be a texan, and I'll welcome it. You dont find players as flexable as he is every day.

Mario's inflexibility as an OLB is a central point for not keeping him. For a DE in a 3-4 he is very flexible. However, Barwin and Reed are capable of doing many more things as an OLB than Mario can. Barwin, particularly, did some really cool stuff exchanging roles with Cushing on passing downs. One of the most effective blitzes this year had Barwin dropping into the middle zone in a cover 2 style zone from his OLB position while Cushing blitzed from the ILB position. These are the kinds of things this defense can do without Mario that they have less flexibilitiy to do with him.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 04:15 PM
LOL, y'all need to stop feeding the troll. Just completely ignore and disregard anything he has to say on Mario Williams.

I'm not a troll. This issue is worth harping on because it is the biggest personnel issue this organization has ever faced and it will have a dramatic impact on the configuration of this team moving forward... a team that is poised to go on numerous Superbowl runs the next few years. How Mario is handled will go a long way in determining the length and quality of that run.

Rey
01-30-2012, 04:16 PM
Mario's inflexibility as an OLB is a central point for not keeping him. For a DE in a 3-4 he is very flexible. However, Barwin and Reed are capable of doing many more things as an OLB than Mario can. Barwin, particularly, did some really cool stuff exchanging roles with Cushing on passing downs. One of the most effective blitzes this year had Barwin dropping into the middle zone in a cover 2 style zone from his OLB position while Cushing blitzed from the ILB position. These are the kinds of things this defense can do without Mario that they have less flexibilitiy to do with him.

If Mario is on the field you can still do that with Barwin.

Except now you have Mario and Cushing coming.

Blake
01-30-2012, 04:45 PM
I'm not a troll. This issue is worth harping on because it is the biggest personnel issue this organization has ever faced and it will have a dramatic impact on the configuration of this team moving forward... a team that is poised to go on numerous Superbowl runs the next few years. How Mario is handled will go a long way in determining the length and quality of that run.

Yeah but you have 5 separate threads in the past 12 months about Mario. We get it. You dont think he is worth the $$ to the Texans.

By the way, we can't trade Mario. We sign him to a long term deal or he signs somewhere else. I'm hoping for the latter.

This is just not true. Why would you even write that?

From the Just re-watched NO, Pitt, Balt, and... thread.

This is simply not true. Show me the double-teams. This is pure fiction. Rarely did Mario get double-teamed. Regarding Smith, his drop in production may have something to do with his injured shoulder... just a thought.

I enjoy how you defend Smith by saying his drop in production may be because he is injured, yet Mario never gets defended by you.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 05:10 PM
Yeah but you have 5 separate threads in the past 12 months about Mario. We get it. You dont think he is worth the $$ to the Texans.



This is just not true. Why would you even write that?



I enjoy how you defend Smith by saying his drop in production may be because he is injured, yet Mario never gets defended by you.


The only way Mario can be traded is if we franchise tag him. We can not franchise tag him because we don't have the $17-$22 million of room under the cap to do so. Therefore, we can't trade him. His contract is expired. We have no rights to him.

If Antonio Smith ends the next two seasons on I.R. and then the market expectations are for him to receive a contract north of $10 million per year, I promise you I will desperately want the Texans to let him walk.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 05:16 PM
If Mario is on the field you can still do that with Barwin.

Except now you have Mario and Cushing coming.

Yes, that is true. However, with Reed on the field you can do similar things on either side and you can effectively cover TEs and RBs in the flat with Reed or Barwin. Mario is a one trick pony (strong side run defender with an overpowering bull rush) and I believe that handicaps the flexibility in Wade's 3-4 defense. Understand, I don't think Reed is better. My point is that the flexibility without Mario helps compensate for the loss of his talent. If I am right about that then a 4-3 team will (and should) offer Mario more money than he is worth to the Texans.

Dutchrudder
01-30-2012, 05:20 PM
The only way Mario can be traded is if we franchise tag him. We can not franchise tag him because we don't have the $17-$22 million of room under the cap to do so. Therefore, we can't trade him. His contract is expired. We have no rights to him.

If Antonio Smith ends the next two seasons on I.R. and then the market expectations are for him to receive a contract north of $10 million per year, I promise you I will desperately want the Texans to let him walk.

That doesn't matter until just before the start of the league year when the salary cap is enforced. Somewhere around the 4th preseason game is when all teams must be under the cap. In the meantime, teams can re-work deals and sign players and go over the cap while they get things in order. It is possible to do a tag and trade deal, it's just difficult given that it is a 16.56 million or more gamble on him. He may sign the tender ASAP and force the team's hand, or he may be open to working something out. Not really sure what his relations with Rick Smith is like, so I won't speculate. They may play golf with eachother every Tuesday.

texanchris
01-30-2012, 06:26 PM
2013 texans free agents:Connor Barwin, Duane Brown, Matt Schaub, Shaun Cody, Glover Quin, Rashad Butler, Antoine caldwell, James Casey, Brice Mccain, Troy Nolan, and Tim Jamison

2014 free agents: Brian Cushing, Antonio Smith, Wade Smith, Eric Wintston, Earl Mitchell, Darryl Sharpton, and Ben Tate.

As much as i want to keep Williams, having that much money tied down to 1 players does more harm than good. So many of the Texans key players will be free agents in the next couple years and we won't be able to resign them all. Mario Williams is a great player when healthy and when he wants to play but we have 13 starters becoming free agents in the next couple years. While Brooks Reed hasn't been amazing replacing Mario, he's done a serviceable job. We have to look at the texans future free agents because resigning Mario will definitely affect how many Texans Rick Smith re-signs.

thunderkyss
01-30-2012, 06:43 PM
I did say that if the defense didn't lose anything I would be ok with Mario being traded, and I meant it. If you do this, you have to get a rotational guy in the draft or FA. Wont really be a FA one avaliable.

That's not correct.

If we lose Mario, we'll be looking for a dynamic edge rusher. That's a first round guy. Maybe we can go through a slew of UDFAs & lower round draft picks to try & find someone to fill that role.... like the Steelers did with Harrison & Woodley. But we'll be looking for years (maybe) to find the very guy we're letting go.

That's what doesn't make sense to me.

I have no doubt in my mind that Mario would stay healthier with a rotation like we've got now.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 06:48 PM
That doesn't matter until just before the start of the league year when the salary cap is enforced. Somewhere around the 4th preseason game is when all teams must be under the cap. In the meantime, teams can re-work deals and sign players and go over the cap while they get things in order. It is possible to do a tag and trade deal, it's just difficult given that it is a 16.56 million or more gamble on him. He may sign the tender ASAP and force the team's hand, or he may be open to working something out. Not really sure what his relations with Rick Smith is like, so I won't speculate. They may play golf with eachother every Tuesday.

That is correct. I can not imagine the Texans front office would make the kind of gamble that you are proposing. If the Texans did tender Mario, they could get stuck with his contract and have to obliterate the team as a result. You could argue that the Texans could still trade him for cheap, but if the rest of the NFL knew the gamble the Texans were making (which they would), the other teams could hold them hostage and actually demand more compensation simply to take Mario off their hands. Not to mention, very few teams could handle that dollar figure on next year's cap. Therefore, few would be able to trade for him. As you said, Mario, knowing the position the Texans (or any other team who assumed that contract) would be in with that franchise tag, could demand a monster deal simply to blackmail the team to get out from under that cap number.

thunderkyss
01-30-2012, 07:03 PM
If Mario is on the field you can still do that with Barwin.

Except now you have Mario and Cushing coming.

Don't fall for it. Mario can & has dropped into zone coverage & does as good a job as any of our LBs...... he's done it from day one. I've commented (& I know my opinion doesn't count as much as dalemurphy's) that he understands zone coverage better than any of our LBs.

steelbtexan
01-30-2012, 07:17 PM
I would love to see 90 back. I also understand that sometimes, for the good of the team, good players have to walk. See also, Vonta Leach. When you are good, you lose people. I think somehow we will get a decent contract in place and Mario will be a texan, and I'll welcome it. You dont find players as flexable as he is every day.

^^^^
This

The Texans did have the #2 ranked defense without MW for much of the yr.

Whatever Wade thinks should be done is the way my sentiments lean.

BTW, with MW getting hurt so early in the yr it kinda limits 76's ability to look at film.

steelbtexan
01-30-2012, 07:19 PM
Don't fall for it. Mario can & has dropped into zone coverage & does as good a job as any of our LBs...... he's done it from day one. I've commented (& I know my opinion doesn't count as much as dalemurphy's) that he understands zone coverage better than any of our LBs.

How do you know this with so little film of MW playing in Wades 5-2 defense?

thunderkyss
01-30-2012, 07:19 PM
I enjoy how you defend Smith by saying his drop in production may be because he is injured, yet Mario never gets defended by you.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can defend Smith, but not like Mario.

Yeah, Mario costs more, but he's worth it & since 2009 it should have been easy to see. Teams run at Antonio Smith... they don't run at Mario. Teams can cut back & be successful when Antonio has contain, not so when Mario is on the backside. Mario finishes, Antonio gets close. I like Antonio, I think he's a fine 3-4 DE. But you can't pay a guy on hustle & you can't build your team around it either. If those guys weren't getting to the QB, or the RB for a loss.... you don't have a very good front 7.

If I'm going to replace either of those two players, it wouldn't be the one that finishes. It wouldn't be the one who has sacked Manning more than any other single player in the last 6 years. It would not be the only guy I saw single handedly take Rothlisberger down, twice in the same game.

If you've got two edge rushers like Barwin, maybe. If you think Reed can be that guy..... maybe. But I'm just not seeing it. Not yet.

thunderkyss
01-30-2012, 07:22 PM
How do you know this with so little film of MW playing in Wades 5-2 defense?

Mario has dropped into coverage several times from a 4-3 front. He backpedals well, read the QB well, tracks the deeper guy in his zone well, while keeping the under guy in front of him.

Since day one, he's been dropping into zones & does a good job.

I've never seen him cover a TE or RB one-on-one, but that is not what was questioned, dalemurphy clearly said zone & Mario plays zone very well.

steelbtexan
01-30-2012, 07:42 PM
Thanks for the answer,

I will not dispute it. You've obviously been watching MW dropping back into zones alot more closely than I have.

Over the last 6 yrs can you give me a guesstimate of how many times MW has dropped into zones on a per game basis?

steelbtexan
01-30-2012, 07:46 PM
Personally, I don't understand how anyone can defend Smith, but not like Mario.

Yeah, Mario costs more, but he's worth it & since 2009 it should have been easy to see. Teams run at Antonio Smith... they don't run at Mario. Teams can cut back & be successful when Antonio has contain, not so when Mario is on the backside. Mario finishes, Antonio gets close. I like Antonio, I think he's a fine 3-4 DE. But you can't pay a guy on hustle & you can't build your team around it either. If those guys weren't getting to the QB, or the RB for a loss.... you don't have a very good front 7.

If I'm going to replace either of those two players, it wouldn't be the one that finishes. It wouldn't be the one who has sacked Manning more than any other single player in the last 6 years. It would not be the only guy I saw single handedly take Rothlisberger down, twice in the same game.

If you've got two edge rushers like Barwin, maybe. If you think Reed can be that guy..... maybe. But I'm just not seeing it. Not yet.

Not saying Smith is better than MW.

But, did I see Smith get a sack in the pro bowl last night? Or was it an almost sack?

thunderkyss
01-30-2012, 07:50 PM
Not saying Smith is better than MW.

But, did I see Smith get a sack in the pro bowl last night? Or was it an almost sack?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7G6ciJUMuAk/SoD9uG78PTI/AAAAAAAAANI/6BtwSHhMZoY/s400/not+sure+if+serious.jpg

beerlover
01-30-2012, 07:52 PM
Trying to be serious for a minute, Wade uses Mario like some 3-4 DC's use a stud NG- to require attention of two blockers. Same principle this free's up other pass rushers to get sacks & reek havoc on the QB.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 07:54 PM
Personally, I don't understand how anyone can defend Smith, but not like Mario.

Yeah, Mario costs more, but he's worth it & since 2009 it should have been easy to see. Teams run at Antonio Smith... they don't run at Mario. Teams can cut back & be successful when Antonio has contain, not so when Mario is on the backside. Mario finishes, Antonio gets close. I like Antonio, I think he's a fine 3-4 DE. But you can't pay a guy on hustle & you can't build your team around it either. If those guys weren't getting to the QB, or the RB for a loss.... you don't have a very good front 7.

If I'm going to replace either of those two players, it wouldn't be the one that finishes. It wouldn't be the one who has sacked Manning more than any other single player in the last 6 years. It would not be the only guy I saw single handedly take Rothlisberger down, twice in the same game.

If you've got two edge rushers like Barwin, maybe. If you think Reed can be that guy..... maybe. But I'm just not seeing it. Not yet.


TK, that's a bogus comparison. Antonio Smith plays a different position. Even in 2009 and 2010, Antonio was playing on the inside on pass downs. Plus, he usually played on the strong side of the offense, keeping Mario in mostly one on one situations. Is Mario a better edge rusher than Antonio Smith? Sure he is. But, so are 50 or 60 other guys in the NFL. Would Mario be a better interior pass rusher than Antonio? I doubt it. Would Mario be better penetrating the interior line on run plays? No way! All that being said, I'd be thrilled if Mario re-signed with the Texans for 5 years and $35 million.

Also, ask the young players in the front 7: Barwin, Reed, Watt, Mitchell, who their mentor is. They'll tell you, "Antonio Smith", not Mario Williams. Antonio is the better student of the game and an emotional leader. Mario brings none of that. So, perhaps Antonio receives a little less game planning attention than Mario does, but that doesn't mean he isn't actively making his teammates better.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 07:56 PM
Thanks for the answer,

I will not dispute it. You've obviously been watching MW dropping back into zones alot more closely than I have.

Over the last 6 yrs can you give me a guesstimate of how many times MW has dropped into zones on a per game basis?

Not often. They did it more in 2010, under Frank Bush than they did in the first month of this season. Mario can adequately drop into the flat. However, he can't turn his hips, change directions, or do any of the things that Barwin can do and Reed will likely be able to do.

steelbtexan
01-30-2012, 08:14 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7G6ciJUMuAk/SoD9uG78PTI/AAAAAAAAANI/6BtwSHhMZoY/s400/not+sure+if+serious.jpg

Point is Smith made the pro bowl.

He aint chopped liver.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 09:45 PM
Trying to be serious for a minute, Wade uses Mario like some 3-4 DC's use a stud NG- to require attention of two blockers. Same principle this free's up other pass rushers to get sacks & reek havoc on the QB.

Most of the time, the defense was designed to give Mario the pass rushing advantage... not for him to occupy blockers. For instance, he usually flipped to the weak side (away from the TE) in single TE sets. Since he is a good finisher, the Texans worked to put him in advantageous situations.

Other than J.J. Watt, Mario is probably the best finisher when near the QB, though Barwin did a good job of that this year as well.

The Cush
01-30-2012, 10:26 PM
Also, ask the young players in the front 7: Barwin, Reed, Watt, Mitchell, who their mentor is. They'll tell you, "Antonio Smith", not Mario Williams. Antonio is the better student of the game and an emotional leader. Mario brings none of that. So, perhaps Antonio receives a little less game planning attention than Mario does, but that doesn't mean he isn't actively making his teammates better.

Really??

Watt said defensive end Mario Williams, who missed most of the season because of an injury, has mentored him.

"Hes my locker buddy hes right next to me," Watt said. "He taught me so many things. A, how to handle myself and be a professional. Then B, how to be a dominant pass rusher."

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/137785823.html

Where are you getting Antonio is a better student of the game from?

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 10:50 PM
Where are you getting Antonio is a better student of the game from?

Following the two of them closely for the past 3+ years. Listening to them talk football, it is pretty clear. However, watching Mario play, it is crystal clear. Mario is a six year pro and he has not developed one counter pass rush move. Meanwhile, Antonio Smith is great with his hands and has developed many techniques to defeat interior double teams despite weighing about 20 lbs less than Mario without the natural ability of Mario.

The Cush
01-30-2012, 11:03 PM
Following the two of them closely for the past 3+ years. Listening to them talk football, it is pretty clear. However, watching Mario play, it is crystal clear. Mario is a six year pro and he has not developed one counter pass rush move. Meanwhile, Antonio Smith is great with his hands and has developed many techniques to defeat interior double teams despite weighing about 20 lbs less than Mario without the natural ability of Mario.

Give us some examples of quotes that promote or demote their intellect. You are also the only person in the world that believes Mario only has one pass rush move. If you turn on ESPN, NFL, CBS, Fox and they are talking about Mario, they speak of a variety of ways he can beat his man. Are they just blowing smoke up our asses or do those guys actually know what they are talking about?

And I'm not sure why you would be "thrilled" if he signed for us at 5 yr/35 million when in your own words "he stinks" and been riding that train for quite some time.

Mario Williams stinks!!

Wow! I know that I have a reputation in this arena. However, I have argued that I wish Mario was healthy because he does make the team better and deeper. I have only been arguing that he isn't worth the money.

Well, I have changed my mind. His absence is one of the reasons this defense has gotten so good. By the way, the Texans are now 7-0 without Mario and the defense is much better.

Mario simply doesn't hustle. He's not physical and only gives good effort when he is put in a situation where he has an advantage and opportunity to make a play. I've never seen a player jog and trot on the field as much as he does. After wathching a physical and aggressive defense the past two months, his laziness really pops on the screen. Those of you who doubt this, go back on watch these games. It is quite infuriating. I am official glad he is on the I.R. Otherwise, our defense would've never turned into what it has. There is no way Rick Smith re-signs this guy! Not gonna happen!

I'll have video by Monday, I hope.

That is after you broke down the film of his play in the first Baltimore game (which he didn't play in), the Pitt. game where he dominated, and the N.O. game where everyone on defense turned in a horrible performance but they all get passes because their names are not Mario Williams.

dalemurphy
01-30-2012, 11:17 PM
Give us some examples of quotes that promote or demote their intellect. You are also the only person in the world that believes Mario only has one pass rush move. If you turn on ESPN, NFL, CBS, Fox and they are talking about Mario, they speak of a variety of ways he can beat his man. Are they just blowing smoke up our asses or do those guys actually know what they are talking about?

And I'm not sure why you would be "thrilled" if he signed for us at 5 yr/35 million when in your own words "he stinks" and been riding that train for quite some time.



That is after you broke down the film of his play in the first Baltimore game (which he didn't play in), the Pitt. game where he dominated, and the N.O. game where everyone on defense turned in a horrible performance but they all get passes because their names are not Mario Williams.


1. I said I re-watched those games, which I did. On one of the posts, I misspoke about which game (Baltimore/Oakland) Mario was injured in. From that mistake, a number of posters started calling me a "liar" and negative repping me. I wasn't lying nor trying to claim anything that wasn't true. I simply got the game wrong in which he went out with his pectoral injury.

2. That post you allude to is called a "rant"! I'm a fan that likes to see players giving effort on the field. Mario's lack of effort vs. New Orleans was disgraceful! Go back and watch it.

3. I never said Antonio had a better intellect than Mario. I said Antonio is a better student of the game. Cushing is a student of the game, as well, but I won't be confusing him with Einstein.

4. What variety of pass rush moves do you argue Mario exhibits? and by the way, who cares what the jackals on the pregame shows are crowing about?

5. If we could get Mario under a contract at that value, I would be very excited. That deal is small enough that it can be managed and does not threaten the future of the organization.

6. My argument has been consistent since I re-watched those early games. The Texans' identity on defense developed after Mario was on the shelf. I don't think it is a coincidence. I think his absence allowed higher energy and high intensity guys like Cushing and A. Smith to become the clear leaders of the defense. As a result, the defense began to take on their attitude and identity and it blossomed from there.

The Cush
01-31-2012, 12:09 AM
4. What variety of pass rush moves do you argue Mario exhibits? and by the way, who cares what the jackals on the pregame shows are crowing about?

6. My argument has been consistent since I re-watched those early games. The Texans' identity on defense developed after Mario was on the shelf. I don't think it is a coincidence. I think his absence allowed higher energy and high intensity guys like Cushing and A. Smith to become the clear leaders of the defense. As a result, the defense began to take on their attitude and identity and it blossomed from there.

4) Mario has shown he can speed rush you off the edge, bull rush you, fake an outside speed rush and move inside, I've even seen him do a spin move a time or two. The reason I bring those "jackals" (guys that have played in the NFL and have a pretty good understanding of football) up because if everyone is saying it but you, don't you think there is some truth to it? They aren't just making stuff up that Mario can't/hasn't displayed just to hype him up, they have no reason to. Those guys will gladly rip and throw people under the bus when they deserve it.

6) Outside of that Saints game, the defense still played great with tenacity early on in the season and were playing lights out. They were also at the disadvantage of the short offseason to prepare and were still getting use to the system but showed the foundation of what they were to become. They were ravenous in the Colts and Steelers game in particular. Cushing and Smith were on the field with Mario too. Mario isn't their Dad who they are afraid to act a certain way around, they weren't like "Ohhh Mario is gone teehee, now we can act like rabid animals!" Smith's intensity and character stayed the same throughout the entire season. Cushing has always shown characteristics of a leader since his rookie season. Wade gave him the opportunity to be the leader by having him relay the plays. He embraced his role as the season went on, that was going to happen whether Mario was out there or not.

dalemurphy
01-31-2012, 12:40 AM
4) Mario has shown he can speed rush you off the edge, bull rush you, fake an outside speed rush and move inside, I've even seen him do a spin move a time or two. The reason I bring those "jackals" (guys that have played in the NFL and have a pretty good understanding of football) up because if everyone is saying it but you, don't you think there is some truth to it? They aren't just making stuff up that Mario can't/hasn't displayed just to hype him up, they have no reason to. Those guys will gladly rip and throw people under the bus when they deserve it.

6) Outside of that Saints game, the defense still played great with tenacity early on in the season and were playing lights out. They were also at the disadvantage of the short offseason to prepare and were still getting use to the system but showed the foundation of what they were to become. They were ravenous in the Colts and Steelers game in particular. Cushing and Smith were on the field with Mario too. Mario isn't their Dad who they are afraid to act a certain way around, they weren't like "Ohhh Mario is gone teehee, now we can act like rabid animals!" Smith's intensity and character stayed the same throughout the entire season. Cushing has always shown characteristics of a leader since his rookie season. Wade gave him the opportunity to be the leader by having him relay the plays. He embraced his role as the season went on, that was going to happen whether Mario was out there or not.


To say Mario has a "speed rush" is generous. To say he has a "spin move" is nuts!

Team dynamics are a little more complex than your characterization suggests.

I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.


In six weeks we will know. I'd give 2-1 odds that Mario doesn't return to the Texans in 2012. Still, with the monster deal he is likely to sign, it may never be clear what the Texans were willing to pay him. I expect it to be way, way less than market value though.

The Cush
01-31-2012, 12:53 AM
To say Mario has a "speed rush" is generous. To say he has a "spin move" is nuts!

Team dynamics are a little more complex than your characterization suggests.

I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.


In six weeks we will know. I'd give 2-1 odds that Mario doesn't return to the Texans in 2012. Still, with the monster deal he is likely to sign, it may never be clear what the Texans were willing to pay him. I expect it to be way, way less than market value though.

I've seen every single Texans game (several of them more than 3 or 4 times) that has been played and to refresh my memory I was watching Mario videos on Youtube and several of his sacks come off of him just speed rushing the tackle, beating them around the corner. It's not a Robert Mathis or Clay Matthews level of speed but he has that ability in his repetoire. There's a clip of him using a spin move to sack Peyton.

I love Mario but I don't think he's going to return based on the circumstances of the guys we have, the guys we need to resign, and our cap situation. I'm just not going to sell him short of his abilities or what he has done on his way out like some people will (dalemurphy)

dream_team
01-31-2012, 02:59 AM
1. I said I re-watched those games, which I did. On one of the posts, I misspoke about which game (Baltimore/Oakland) Mario was injured in. From that mistake, a number of posters started calling me a "liar" and negative repping me. I wasn't lying nor trying to claim anything that wasn't true. I simply got the game wrong in which he went out with his pectoral injury.

2. That post you allude to is called a "rant"! I'm a fan that likes to see players giving effort on the field. Mario's lack of effort vs. New Orleans was disgraceful! Go back and watch it.

3. I never said Antonio had a better intellect than Mario. I said Antonio is a better student of the game. Cushing is a student of the game, as well, but I won't be confusing him with Einstein.

4. What variety of pass rush moves do you argue Mario exhibits? and by the way, who cares what the jackals on the pregame shows are crowing about?

5. If we could get Mario under a contract at that value, I would be very excited. That deal is small enough that it can be managed and does not threaten the future of the organization.

6. My argument has been consistent since I re-watched those early games. The Texans' identity on defense developed after Mario was on the shelf. I don't think it is a coincidence. I think his absence allowed higher energy and high intensity guys like Cushing and A. Smith to become the clear leaders of the defense. As a result, the defense began to take on their attitude and identity and it blossomed from there.

I don't know what you mean about this "identity"... but the defense has been playing lights out since the start of the season.

Week 1-Colts: Allowed 236 yards, 7 points, 3 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 2-Dolphins: Allowed 306 yards, 13 points, 2 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 4-Steelers: Allowed 296 yards, 10 points, 5 sacks, 1 turnover

That's pretty damn good!

Sure, we had a hiccup in Week 3 against the league's top rated offense. But it's still worth mentioning we held the Saints below their season average in yards gained.

Arguing that we don't need Mario is understandable. Arguing that we should use that money elsewhere is a valid point. I think you lose people on this board, though, when you make statements like #6... and claim the defense is better w/o Mario.

leebigeztx
01-31-2012, 03:02 AM
Same old same old from the same posters. No one in the entire nfl lets go of a 27 yr old pass rusher that has the production mario has. No team, not even the cheap ones. When teams let go of guys, its because they're over 30 and declining.

Smart teams find a way to pay their best players period. qb,lt,de are the highest paid positions in the league for a reason, not accident. Now if some think mario is a luxury and that wade can just scheme his way through it, keep thinking that. This year, smith got going, because of the turn to mario. Once williams went out, smith got the attention and barwin started to click. Once they started to adjust to barwin, watt started coming. What my point? Williams will make it impossible to block everyone. Wade,and every dc in the league wants a mario williams and thats just not me talking. The texans have enough dead salaries on the books to get a deal done.

dalemurphy
01-31-2012, 07:12 AM
I don't know what you mean about this "identity"... but the defense has been playing lights out since the start of the season.

Week 1-Colts: Allowed 236 yards, 7 points, 3 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 2-Dolphins: Allowed 306 yards, 13 points, 2 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 4-Steelers: Allowed 296 yards, 10 points, 5 sacks, 1 turnover

That's pretty damn good!

Sure, we had a hiccup in Week 3 against the league's top rated offense. But it's still worth mentioning we held the Saints below their season average in yards gained.

Arguing that we don't need Mario is understandable. Arguing that we should use that money elsewhere is a valid point. I think you lose people on this board, though, when you make statements like #6... and claim the defense is better w/o Mario.


The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement. We can disagree whether his absence played a role in their improvement or not. However, anyone arguing that he is essential to the success of the defense or the team simply isn't dealing with reality. 14 games without him (minus one quarter) and this defense was the best in the NFL... hands down. 14 games, by the way, is a pretty good sample size. I'm not making the argument based on 2 or 3 games.

Blake
01-31-2012, 08:24 AM
By the way, we can't trade Mario. We sign him to a long term deal or he signs somewhere else.

This is just not true. Why would you even write that?

The only way Mario can be traded is if we franchise tag him. We can not franchise tag him because we don't have the $17-$22 million of room under the cap to do so. Therefore, we can't trade him. His contract is expired. We have no rights to him.

That doesn't matter until just before the start of the league year when the salary cap is enforced. Somewhere around the 4th preseason game is when all teams must be under the cap. In the meantime, teams can re-work deals and sign players and go over the cap while they get things in order. It is possible to do a tag and trade deal, it's just difficult given that it is a 16.56 million or more gamble on him.

That is correct. I can not imagine the Texans front office would make the kind of gamble that you are proposing. If the Texans did tender Mario, they could get stuck with his contract and have to obliterate the team as a result.

So when I call your statement false you refute it, when Dutch calls it false you flip your stance and agree? You should just stop using the argument that Mario is untradeable. It is not accurate whether or not you think they actually would do it. At this point it is still available to the Texans.

Blake
01-31-2012, 08:34 AM
Also, ask the young players in the front 7: Barwin, Reed, Watt, Mitchell, who their mentor is. They'll tell you, "Antonio Smith", not Mario Williams.

Really??


Watt said defensive end Mario Williams, who missed most of the season because of an injury, has mentored him.

"Hes my locker buddy hes right next to me," Watt said. "He taught me so many things. A, how to handle myself and be a professional. Then B, how to be a dominant pass rusher."

Haha! Dale. Just stop, please. You are really starting to paint yourself into a corner.

Rey
01-31-2012, 09:25 AM
The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement. We can disagree whether his absence played a role in their improvement or not. However, anyone arguing that he is essential to the success of the defense or the team simply isn't dealing with reality. 14 games without him (minus one quarter) and this defense was the best in the NFL... hands down. 14 games, by the way, is a pretty good sample size. I'm not making the argument based on 2 or 3 games.

Dale, I remember when your argument was that Mario is not that good.

I remember when you said the team was better without him.

Now you're saying that he does make the team better but he's not worth the money he will likely get.

We're all entitled to change our minds, but I'm curious what has led you to change your mind between now and week 7 of the regular season?

Blake
01-31-2012, 10:04 AM
The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement.

Could it be that the defense was implementing a new system and they got better as time went on? Or did you think they would get worse in the new system, but Mario exiting changed all that?

There are alot more variables at work here than just with Mario and without. And if you dont see that then I am not sure what to tell you.

Also stop speaking out both sides of your mouth. Sometimes you say Mario is a waste of space and doesnt even make the team better. Other times you say you want him back and would be ok with giving him 35 million... Your words.

Mr teX
01-31-2012, 11:32 AM
Could it be that the defense was implementing a new system and they got better as time went on? Or did you think they would get worse in the new system, but Mario exiting changed all that?

There are alot more variables at work here than just with Mario and without. And if you dont see that then I am not sure what to tell you.

Also stop speaking out both sides of your mouth. Sometimes you say Mario is a waste of space and doesnt even make the team better. Other times you say you want him back and would be ok with giving him 35 million... Your words.

Bingo!!!!!!!!! and why dale's whole post :faildetector:

BigBull17
01-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Don't fall for it. Mario can & has dropped into zone coverage & does as good a job as any of our LBs...... he's done it from day one. I've commented (& I know my opinion doesn't count as much as dalemurphy's) that he understands zone coverage better than any of our LBs.

Yeah, I never saw a time when he dropped into zone that he looked lost or horrible. They didn't drop him because he was THE BEST PASS RUSHER ON THE TEAM! (not yelling at you TK, but you know that) In preseason, Mario impressed the hell out of me with his LB'er skills. But, he had a bad half in NO, so all good is gone. Must spread rep...

dalemurphy
01-31-2012, 01:11 PM
Could it be that the defense was implementing a new system and they got better as time went on? Or did you think they would get worse in the new system, but Mario exiting changed all that?

There are alot more variables at work here than just with Mario and without. And if you dont see that then I am not sure what to tell you.

Also stop speaking out both sides of your mouth. Sometimes you say Mario is a waste of space and doesnt even make the team better. Other times you say you want him back and would be ok with giving him 35 million... Your words.

Of course there are a lot of variables. I happen to think one of them was Mario's exit. I can respect the fact that people will disagree with that. I didn't think that was true until going back and watching those early games at the end of this season.

Again, though, I'm debating whether we should keep him at his price. I think it is clear that we shouldn't based on the team's performance without him. If we could get him at a bargain basement price, then I would think that a wise move. I'm not contradicting myself. If he can be on the team and the team still can operate with room under the cap and if his guaranteed money were low enough that we could cut him loose if he underperformed on never regained his health, then I would have no problem with it. That's irrelevant, though. He's going to cost a lot of money!

dalemurphy
01-31-2012, 01:13 PM
So when I call your statement false you refute it, when Dutch calls it false you flip your stance and agree? You should just stop using the argument that Mario is untradeable. It is not accurate whether or not you think they actually would do it. At this point it is still available to the Texans.

I wasn't going for legalism. In one statement, for brevity sake, I was saying it is a practical impossibility. Later, responding to another, I agreed that it could legally happen and then reiterated why I think the Texans would never do something like that. This is a message board, not a legal document.

thunderkyss
01-31-2012, 06:21 PM
In six weeks we will know. I'd give 2-1 odds that Mario doesn't return to the Texans in 2012. Still, with the monster deal he is likely to sign, it may never be clear what the Texans were willing to pay him. I expect it to be way, way less than market value though.

Good, let's wait six weeks then. FYI (http://www.foxsportshouston.com/01/19/12/Foster-Williams-top-priorities-for-Texan/landing_texans.html?blockID=649138&feedID=4073):
"...Certainly (retaining Williams) is going to be a focus of ours. We want to keep him and we're going to do everything we can to do that."

Lucky
01-31-2012, 10:24 PM
From tk's link above:

McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.
If the Texans can't franchise Williams, they can't trade him. So the options are simple:

Reach a deal with Mario prior to free agency
Let him walk without compensation in 2012

Dutchrudder
01-31-2012, 11:25 PM
McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.

Wow, that's great news! Not that he won't be franchised, but that it puts Mario's salary for 2011 around 19 million plus any bonuses/incentives on top of that. That's WAY more than I had thought the Texans had to work with. No question is there money to re-sign Mario, Foster, Myers and Brisiel while picking up a mid-level #2 WR in free agency. Could easily sign Mario to a worthy deal that has him average 12-15 mill a year and still have enough to pay our other guys.

/This is of course assuming that Bob McNair knows the numbers...

mussop
02-01-2012, 12:42 AM
You should just stop using the argument that Mario is untradeable. It is not accurate whether or not you think they actually would do it. At this point it is still available to the Texans.

Quote:
McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.

:mariopalm:

76Texan
02-01-2012, 03:47 AM
The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement. We can disagree whether his absence played a role in their improvement or not. However, anyone arguing that he is essential to the success of the defense or the team simply isn't dealing with reality. 14 games without him (minus one quarter) and this defense was the best in the NFL... hands down. 14 games, by the way, is a pretty good sample size. I'm not making the argument based on 2 or 3 games.
1. The Colts weren't supposed to implode that early.
At any rate, the Texans D were better against the Colts with Mario than without him. Does the name Dan O. ring a bell to you, Dale?

2. The Dolphins with Henne was doing well offensively; they were no wussies.

3. Against the Saints, the Texans still led 26-17 when Mario bang his knee against Smith. He only played 10 or 11 of the last 36 snaps of the game.
He was double-teamed 4 times. The Saints went with a very quick pass on one play. Mario was neutralized by the OT only once. The rest of the time, he won his battle.

ObsiWan
02-01-2012, 06:39 AM
Wow, that's great news! Not that he won't be franchised, but that it puts Mario's salary for 2011 around 19 million plus any bonuses/incentives on top of that. That's WAY more than I had thought the Texans had to work with. No question is there money to re-sign Mario, Foster, Myers and Brisiel while picking up a mid-level #2 WR in free agency. Could easily sign Mario to a worthy deal that has him average 12-15 mill a year and still have enough to pay our other guys.

/This is of course assuming that Bob McNair knows the numbers...

You're not teasing me are you??
:bat:

If you're correct, this is the best news I've heard all month.
:doot:

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 07:18 AM
1. The Colts weren't supposed to implode that early.
At any rate, the Texans D were better against the Colts with Mario than without him. Does the name Dan O. ring a bell to you, Dale?

2. The Dolphins with Henne was doing well offensively; they were no wussies.

3. Against the Saints, the Texans still led 26-17 when Mario bang his knee against Smith. He only played 10 or 11 of the last 36 snaps of the game.
He was double-teamed 4 times. The Saints went with a very quick pass on one play. Mario was neutralized by the OT only once. The rest of the time, he won his battle.

Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?

I have to disagree with your assessment of Mario's play in that game.

Regardless, I was excited about the Texans' defense that first month of the season. I, too, thought they were playing well. However, nobody expected that defense to become the elite and dominant defense it became by mid-season, even with Mario healthy. So, that it turned into what it did without Mario, certainly speaks to how replaceable he is.

When the Texans play games without Andre Johnson, Schaub, or Foster, they can still win. However, what doesn't happen is seeing the offense become much better without them... and certainly not over an extended period of time. It's hard to figure out this fan base. On one hand, when TJ Yates performs admirably for a couple weeks, many are ready to cut Schaub loose because he's "injury prone", "not that good", and "non-essential". However, when we lose Mario Williams to the IR for a second consecutive season and the defense becomes GREAT without him, the fan base goes nuts at the idea of losing him. I just don't get it.

The Cush
02-01-2012, 11:19 AM
Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?



LOL, you always bring that play up and because of how you portray it proves you don't evaluate him objectively. Mario or any OLB/DE was set to fail in that position as was the play call. Its 3rd and 3 and we trot out 2 down linemen (Watt and Smith) and 3 linebackers, Mario and Barwin lined up on the outside and Cushing lined up to Barwins left on the LOS (over the Saints left side), and 6 defensive backs. The Saints have a wide receiver and a tight end lined up close to the right and call a sweep play to the right with a pulling guard. Now who do you think is going to win this one? Not only are we outnumbered on the right hand side but we have a defensive package out there catered to stopping the pass.

By the time Sproles controls the ball from the pitch he is already outside of Mario, not beyond Mario, but he is outside and it just takes a small block to get Sproles up the field.

You act like Meachem stands Mario up for a good 3 seconds when in reality he throws a blindside crack back block and holds it for not even a full second. Yea he get doesnt make the play but Sproles runs a sub 4.4, he turned that corner so fast I don't know who you think can just turn to his left, demolish the wide receiver in under .85 seconds and then tackle a guy that fast. It's simple physics that if Mario does not see the block coming and is not anticipating being hit by a guy, his movement is going to be impeded momentarily, even for a split second which is all Sproles (who had a monster season) needs. Stop acting like Meachem was playing right tackle and pancakes Mario in a head on one on one.

And here is how everyone else did on the play..Watt gets stone walled, Allen gets eaten up by the guard, Smith shoots straight up the field its too late for him, and Manning and Nolan run into each other while Cushing and Barwin have no chance due to where they were

The Cush
02-01-2012, 11:25 AM
Regardless, I was excited about the Texans' defense that first month of the season. I, too, thought they were playing well. However, nobody expected that defense to become the elite and dominant defense it became by mid-season, even with Mario healthy. So, that it turned into what it did without Mario, certainly speaks to how replaceable he is.


I disagree. The Texans showed enough early on I knew they were going to be really, really, REALLY good. Others will agree. Eric Winston was on J&R on 610 last week and was asked the question, what performance stood out to you the most on defense throughout the entire regular season? He said out of all the great performances they had, it was the Steelers game and he knew then that the defense was special.

beerlover
02-01-2012, 11:51 AM
bottom line you can't have too many pass rushers. imagine if Texans had kept Babin. they where selected, spaced out every couple years (04,06,09,11) to back fill need, rotate on field, increase production, balance cap space either 1st or 2nd rd. picks, meaning all earned a good chunk of change already. Mario is & will probably always be the kingpin of group setting the bar both contractually & attracting double teams. Guess Luck will get a chance to meet him very soon :mario:

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 01:18 PM
I disagree. The Texans showed enough early on I knew they were going to be really, really, REALLY good. Others will agree. Eric Winston was on J&R on 610 last week and was asked the question, what performance stood out to you the most on defense throughout the entire regular season? He said out of all the great performances they had, it was the Steelers game and he knew then that the defense was special.

I was thrilled with the performance of the defense vs. Pittsburgh. However, nobody was expecting the Texans to be the elite defense in the entire NFL. Certainly, they wouldn't have thought the Texans would get there without Mario. But, that's what happened.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 01:23 PM
bottom line you can't have too many pass rushers. imagine if Texans had kept Babin. they where selected, spaced out every couple years (04,06,09,11) to back fill need, rotate on field, increase production, balance cap space either 1st or 2nd rd. picks, meaning all earned a good chunk of change already. Mario is & will probably always be the kingpin of group setting the bar both contractually & attracting double teams. Guess Luck will get a chance to meet him very soon :mario:

You can have too many if they cost you $12-$18 million per year in the midst of a $120 million salary cap. I'm not opposing the Texans spending an early or mid round pick on a pass rusher and adding one via free agency. I'm opposing the idea of giving a 6 year veteran with an inconsistent motor, who has ended an NFL season on IR as many times as he has reached a double-digit sack total, a contract anywhere in the ballpark of 5 years and $75 million.

Vinny
02-01-2012, 01:24 PM
bottom line you can't have too many pass rushers. imagine if Texans had kept Babin. they where selected, spaced out every couple years (04,06,09,11) to back fill need, rotate on field, increase production, balance cap space either 1st or 2nd rd. picks, meaning all earned a good chunk of change already. Mario is & will probably always be the kingpin of group setting the bar both contractually & attracting double teams. Guess Luck will get a chance to meet him very soon :mario:
Just look at the Giants. They keep bringing in elite edge guys...spending high picks on them, and they always have a great pass rush (when they are healthy of course).

BigBull17
02-01-2012, 02:14 PM
Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?

I have to disagree with your assessment of Mario's play in that game.

Regardless, I was excited about the Texans' defense that first month of the season. I, too, thought they were playing well. However, nobody expected that defense to become the elite and dominant defense it became by mid-season, even with Mario healthy. So, that it turned into what it did without Mario, certainly speaks to how replaceable he is.

When the Texans play games without Andre Johnson, Schaub, or Foster, they can still win. However, what doesn't happen is seeing the offense become much better without them... and certainly not over an extended period of time. It's hard to figure out this fan base. On one hand, when TJ Yates performs admirably for a couple weeks, many are ready to cut Schaub loose because he's "injury prone", "not that good", and "non-essential". However, when we lose Mario Williams to the IR for a second consecutive season and the defense becomes GREAT without him, the fan base goes nuts at the idea of losing him. I just don't get it.

How about vs Baltimore the first game, those few plays Barwin was damn near unblocked and got nothing? You cant find only the worst (or best) plays from every game and base your whole argument on it. His average is good. He is disruptive, stuffs the run, and is a leader. When he makes big plays, its a game changer. But yeah, he was sealed once by a reciever. Execute him and be done with it.

BigBull17
02-01-2012, 02:22 PM
LOL, you always bring that play up and because of how you portray it proves you don't evaluate him objectively. Mario or any OLB/DE was set to fail in that position as was the play call. Its 3rd and 3 and we trot out 2 down linemen (Watt and Smith) and 3 linebackers, Mario and Barwin lined up on the outside and Cushing lined up to Barwins left on the LOS (over the Saints left side), and 6 defensive backs. The Saints have a wide receiver and a tight end lined up close to the right and call a sweep play to the right with a pulling guard. Now who do you think is going to win this one? Not only are we outnumbered on the right hand side but we have a defensive package out there catered to stopping the pass.

By the time Sproles controls the ball from the pitch he is already outside of Mario, not beyond Mario, but he is outside and it just takes a small block to get Sproles up the field.

You act like Meachem stands Mario up for a good 3 seconds when in reality he throws a blindside crack back block and holds it for not even a full second. Yea he get doesnt make the play but Sproles runs a sub 4.4, he turned that corner so fast I don't know who you think can just turn to his left, demolish the wide receiver in under .85 seconds and then tackle a guy that fast. It's simple physics that if Mario does not see the block coming and is not anticipating being hit by a guy, his movement is going to be impeded momentarily, even for a split second which is all Sproles (who had a monster season) needs. Stop acting like Meachem was playing right tackle and pancakes Mario in a head on one on one.

And here is how everyone else did on the play..Watt gets stone walled, Allen gets eaten up by the guard, Smith shoots straight up the field its too late for him, and Manning and Nolan run into each other while Cushing and Barwin have no chance due to where they were

But its all Mario's fault. His work ethic bled over. Duh

cbs1507
02-01-2012, 03:06 PM
I was thrilled with the performance of the defense vs. Pittsburgh. However, nobody was expecting the Texans to be the elite defense in the entire NFL. Certainly, they wouldn't have thought the Texans would get there without Mario. But, that's what happened.

Here was our opponents we faced without Mario...
Bal 15th total offense 19th in pass 10th run (23 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Cle 29th total offense 24th pass 28th run (13 PPG)
TB 21st total offense 16th pass 30th run (17 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Atl 10th total offense 8th pass 17th run (25 PPG)
Cin 20th total offense 20th pass 19th run (21 PPG)
Car 7th total offense 13th pass 3rd run (25 PPG)
Ind 30th total offense 27th pass 26th run (15 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)

...maybe YOU did not think we could dominate down the stretch. But anybody who looked at the BIG PICTURE was not surprised by the defense play down the stretch.

You can have too many if they cost you $12-$18 million per year in the midst of a $120 million salary cap. I'm not opposing the Texans spending an early or mid round pick on a pass rusher and adding one via free agency. I'm opposing the idea of giving a 6 year veteran with an inconsistent motor, who has ended an NFL season on IR as many times as he has reached a double-digit sack total, a contract anywhere in the ballpark of 5 years and $75 million. How many is "too many"? I guess according to you it's ZERO, because Mario Williams is our ONLY pass rusher that commands an elite salary.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 03:19 PM
How about vs Baltimore the first game, those few plays Barwin was damn near unblocked and got nothing? You cant find only the worst (or best) plays from every game and base your whole argument on it. His average is good. He is disruptive, stuffs the run, and is a leader. When he makes big plays, its a game changer. But yeah, he was sealed once by a reciever. Execute him and be done with it.

Barwin costs about $1 million per year, Mario costs over $14 million per year.

Arguing who is better, is not important. How the Texans can field the best complete team is what I care about.

The Texans have proven to be a great defense without Mario Williams and with Barwin. I'm not sure what your point is. Barwin is under contract and Mario is the free agent. Barwin was a contributor on a defense that blossomed into a great defense. Mario received almost a $1 million per game to sit and watch from the sidelines as Barwin racked up most of his 11.5 sacks.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 03:23 PM
Here was our opponents we faced without Mario...
Bal 15th total offense 19th in pass 10th run (23 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Cle 29th total offense 24th pass 28th run (13 PPG)
TB 21st total offense 16th pass 30th run (17 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Atl 10th total offense 8th pass 17th run (25 PPG)
Cin 20th total offense 20th pass 19th run (21 PPG)
Car 7th total offense 13th pass 3rd run (25 PPG)
Ind 30th total offense 27th pass 26th run (15 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)

...maybe YOU did not think we could dominate down the stretch. But anybody who looked at the BIG PICTURE was not surprised by the defense play down the stretch.


And what were the staggering offensive numbers that Pittsburgh, Miami, and Indianapolis put up?

I will agree with you that New Orleans was the best offense we played this year. But to suggest the improvement on defense later in the year is simply due to scheduling is either ignorant or dishonest. One could argue that the Texans would've made those improvements, perhaps even been better if Mario was healthy, but to deny the improvements is foolishness.

cbs1507
02-01-2012, 03:50 PM
And what were the staggering offensive numbers that Pittsburgh, Miami, and Indianapolis put up?

I will agree with you that New Orleans was the best offense we played this year. But to suggest the improvement on defense later in the year is simply due to scheduling is either ignorant or dishonest. One could argue that the Texans would've made those improvements, perhaps even been better if Mario was healthy, but to deny the improvements is foolishness.

Where did I "deny the improvements"? I said I was not surprised by the play of the defense like you were, because I always look at the BIG PICTURE. No what you have been trying to suggest is "ignorant", "dishonest" and "foolish".

Barwin costs about $1 million per year, Mario costs over $14 million per year.

Arguing who is better, is not important. How the Texans can field the best complete team is what I care about.

The Texans have proven to be a great defense without Mario Williams and with Barwin. I'm not sure what your point is. Barwin is under contract and Mario is the free agent. Barwin was a contributor on a defense that blossomed into a great defense. Mario received almost a $1 million per game to sit and watch from the sidelines as Barwin racked up most of his 11.5 sacks.

You are trying to suggest that signing Mario would prevent us from having a complete team. This claim is made based on several assumptions. 1) Mario salary will prevent us from signing key guys 2) We can improve depth by releasing him. On the contrary, we can actually improve our depth by signing Mario and you have failed to provide sufficient evidence that proves that bringing him back will hamper our ability to sign other key players. We were around $2 million under the cap of $120 million in 2011. The cap in 2012 will be AT LEAST $120 million if not greater. We have 12 free agents, that means 12 salaries coming off the cap (including Mario Williams' salary). Your only argument about salary cap is irrelevant because it ignores our actual cap situation and overlooks other options such as restructuring current players contract and possible cap casualties (none of whom are key players).

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 05:16 PM
how many is "too many"? I guess according to you it's zero, because mario williams is our only pass rusher that commands an elite salary.

msr

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 05:59 PM
Where did I "deny the improvements"? I said I was not surprised by the play of the defense like you were, because I always look at the BIG PICTURE. No what you have been trying to suggest is "ignorant", "dishonest" and "foolish".



You are trying to suggest that signing Mario would prevent us from having a complete team. This claim is made based on several assumptions. 1) Mario salary will prevent us from signing key guys 2) We can improve depth by releasing him. On the contrary, we can actually improve our depth by signing Mario and you have failed to provide sufficient evidence that proves that bringing him back will hamper our ability to sign other key players. We were around $2 million under the cap of $120 million in 2011. The cap in 2012 will be AT LEAST $120 million if not greater. We have 12 free agents, that means 12 salaries coming off the cap (including Mario Williams' salary). Your only argument about salary cap is irrelevant because it ignores our actual cap situation and overlooks other options such as restructuring current players contract and possible cap casualties (none of whom are key players).

There are no potential cuts to players still under contract that will significantly help the cap situation.

Arian Foster is getting paid this off-season. Chris Myers is due another contract. Brisiel is a free agent... All three of those are important players to the team, that will still be a good value, but will be signed for more than they were signed to in their previous contracts. For Foster, we are looking at a gigantic leap from a roughly $500,00 to more than 10X that per season

Also, we need to upgrade at WR2, CB2... not to mention that Matt Schaub is entering the last year of his contract, along with the following players:

1. Duane Brown (he'll cost 4 or 5 times what he cost us with his rookie deal)
2. Connor Barwin
3. Glover Quin


These are significant players that are all coming due and all due bigger contracts. Remember, also, the cap number for the NFL was moved backwards last season. Things are tight for 1/2 the NFL. Also, though, you have NFL teams like Cincinnati and Tampa Bay that have been way under the cap for years and years. Under the new CBA, they are required to spend money now. Tampa, I believe, has to increase its payroll by $50 million this off-season. With dynamics in place like this, I see no responsible way to even entertain re-signing Mario.

There's absolutely no cap relief coming to the Texans as a result of the 12 free agents (other than $14 million for Mario)... unless we decide to let Chis Myers walk and go with Shelley Smith or Caldwell at center. Most of the rest of that group were playing for near the veteran minimum. Since the Texans must pay for a 53 man roster, that space will get eaten up by whomever replaces them.

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 06:03 PM
1. Duane Brown (he'll cost 4 or 5 times what he cost us with his rookie deal)
2. Connor Barwin
3. Glover Quin

Elite left tackles are expensive, sure. It may be worth it to re-up Brown this year rather than next. Have the deal start next year, but get a signing bonus now to make him happy. I'm guessing his new deal will be in the 8 mill a year range.

If Barwin gets 10+ sacks next season, he's going to be expensive. I dunno how expensive, but he won't be cheap. I would expect him to get at least 5-6 mill a year, probably more depending on 2012.

Glover Quin? Really? We aren't going to break the bank on him. If he gets more than 3 million a year, I'll be shocked. He's not that significant, easily replaced with draft picks or street free agents. He's an average safety.

dalemurphy
02-01-2012, 06:30 PM
Elite left tackles are expensive, sure. It may be worth it to re-up Brown this year rather than next. Have the deal start next year, but get a signing bonus now to make him happy. I'm guessing his new deal will be in the 8 mill a year range.

If Barwin gets 10+ sacks next season, he's going to be expensive. I dunno how expensive, but he won't be cheap. I would expect him to get at least 5-6 mill a year, probably more depending on 2012.

Glover Quin? Really? We aren't going to break the bank on him. If he gets more than 3 million a year, I'll be shocked. He's not that significant, easily replaced with draft picks or street free agents. He's an average safety.

Are you proposing to go back to the plug and play safety disaster we dealt with for the past decade?

I'm not suggesting $5 or $6 million a year for Quin, but making $3 million or so after next season, instead of $500,000.

Don't forget Schaub.

Dutchrudder
02-01-2012, 06:34 PM
Are you proposing to go back to the plug and play safety disaster we dealt with for the past decade?

I'm not suggesting $5 or $6 million a year for Quin, but making $3 million or so after next season, instead of $500,000.

Don't forget Schaub.

Well we have Manning for the next 3 years, so I'm not too worried about Safety overall. I just don't think Quin is anything above average and wouldn't think he will get more than 2 mill a year on the open market. If he gets 3 or more I'll be surprised. I'm guessing he resigns for about 3 years 5 million.

thunderkyss
02-01-2012, 06:45 PM
Are you proposing to go back to the plug and play safety disaster we dealt with for the past decade?

I'm not suggesting $5 or $6 million a year for Quin, but making $3 million or so after next season, instead of $500,000.

Don't forget Schaub.

I'm all for locking Quin up now. He looked pretty good to me & he's only going to get better.

Brandon420tx
02-01-2012, 07:27 PM
Schaub is the only one the 2013 list not working off a rookie or low contract. Meaning his current cap hit is already substantial. He's the best candidate for signing a new deal this offseason which should also lower his initial cap hit.
Barwin is playing off a rookie 2nd round contract, so we let him finish that out and resign him in a higher 2013 cap year, albeit difficult if Mario's, Arian's, Chris's, Mike's, contracts balloon in 2013.
If we resign Mario, Duane Brown becomes the priority in 2013. If we don't Connor Barwin also becomes a high priority, but we'll have money to get both. Its essentially looking like either Mario or Barwin for the 2013 season. We have to bring back Brown, and doing so makes Barwin hard to bring back if we keep Mario.
Cushing should get an extension from his round 1 rookie contract so we aren't paying out his final big year and we lock him up long term before he hits his free agency year in 2014.
This offseason, and the next 2 offseasons are going to play a huge role in the future of the Texans

cbs1507
02-01-2012, 10:02 PM
There are no potential cuts to players still under contract that will significantly help the cap situation.

Arian Foster is getting paid this off-season. Chris Myers is due another contract. Brisiel is a free agent... 1) All three of those are important players to the team, that will still be a good value, but will be signed for more than they were signed to in their previous contracts. For Foster, we are looking at a gigantic leap from a roughly $500,00 to more than 10X that per season

Also, we need to upgrade at WR2, CB2... not to mention that Matt Schaub is entering the last year of his contract, along with the following players:

2)
1. Duane Brown (he'll cost 4 or 5 times what he cost us with his rookie deal)
2. Connor Barwin
3. Glover Quin


These are significant players that are all coming due and all due bigger contracts. 3)Remember, also, the cap number for the NFL was moved backwards last season. Things are tight for 1/2 the NFL. Also, though, you have NFL teams like Cincinnati and Tampa Bay that have been way under the cap for years and years. 4)Under the new CBA, they are required to spend money now. Tampa, I believe, has to increase its payroll by $50 million this off-season. With dynamics in place like this, I see no responsible way to even entertain re-signing Mario.

5)There's absolutely no cap relief coming to the Texans as a result of the 12 free agents (other than $14 million for Mario)... unless we decide to let Chis Myers walk and go with Shelley Smith or Caldwell at center. 6)Most of the rest of that group were playing for near the veteran minimum. Since the Texans must pay for a 53 man roster, that space will get eaten up by whomever replaces them.


1) Yes all of them are key FAs for the Texans BUT only Foster (of those 3) is still on his rookie contract. He will be the only person to get a substantial raise. Myers made $3.5 million last year. He and Brisiel are zone blocking scheme linemen (smaller in stature but fleet of foot) so they won't have huge markets because only a few teams are predominately zone schemes.
2) All 3 of those guys are still on there rookie contracts. Why would we increase their cap number for 2012? Keep in mind that the salary cap will raise along with revenue, so expect the salary cap to increase over the next few years. We will likely deal with them next offseason.
3) Yes that usually happens when you move from uncapped 2010 to hard cap in 2011. But the salary cap will be AT LEAST no less than the $120.375 million is was in 2011.
4) Yes teams are required to spend at least 89% of the salary cap in 2012. But this is FREE AGENCY, meaning the player gets to choose where he wants to go. Those teams that you mentioned have cap space for a reason (they are bad teams). They certainly aren't contenders. Would Mario actually want to play there?
5) You don't have evidence to back this claim. Mario Williams cap hit was around $15 million (some source say $18 million). In a long term deal we would try to get that cap number down for the first 2 years. Chris Myers made about $3.5 (he won't be getting much more than that). Like I said earlier the only person getting a substantial raise of the bunch would be Foster, who is the only key player coming off his rookie contract (besides Williams).
6) Most of the rest of the 12 FAs are not getting big buck. Only a select few. If they want more, they are replaceable in FA or the draft (which will be much cheaper). The main goal is to get Williams and Foster. The other guys won't be getting much more (if not less) than what they were already making.

76Texan
02-02-2012, 10:23 AM
Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?



LOL, you always bring that play up and because of how you portray it proves you don't evaluate him objectively. Mario or any OLB/DE was set to fail in that position as was the play call. Its 3rd and 3 and we trot out 2 down linemen (Watt and Smith) and 3 linebackers, Mario and Barwin lined up on the outside and Cushing lined up to Barwins left on the LOS (over the Saints left side), and 6 defensive backs. The Saints have a wide receiver and a tight end lined up close to the right and call a sweep play to the right with a pulling guard. Now who do you think is going to win this one? Not only are we outnumbered on the right hand side but we have a defensive package out there catered to stopping the pass.

By the time Sproles controls the ball from the pitch he is already outside of Mario, not beyond Mario, but he is outside and it just takes a small block to get Sproles up the field.

You act like Meachem stands Mario up for a good 3 seconds when in reality he throws a blindside crack back block and holds it for not even a full second. Yea he get doesnt make the play but Sproles runs a sub 4.4, he turned that corner so fast I don't know who you think can just turn to his left, demolish the wide receiver in under .85 seconds and then tackle a guy that fast. It's simple physics that if Mario does not see the block coming and is not anticipating being hit by a guy, his movement is going to be impeded momentarily, even for a split second which is all Sproles (who had a monster season) needs. Stop acting like Meachem was playing right tackle and pancakes Mario in a head on one on one.

And here is how everyone else did on the play..Watt gets stone walled, Allen gets eaten up by the guard, Smith shoots straight up the field its too late for him, and Manning and Nolan run into each other while Cushing and Barwin have no chance due to where they were

Mario won that one, Dale.
Remember that when the End man (Mario) is crash blocked by the receiver, the CB becomes the Force Man. The first "culprit" on this play was Allen.
...

If you watched the play just before that, Barwin lost containment pretty badly to the TE.
Allen was unblocked (as the receiver went after Manning) and came up to make the tackle after a 5yd gain (with help from Cushing).
Allen did a pretty good job here considering it was an open field.
The reason Barwin looked to be not too far from the runner was due to the fact that Allen was unblocked so Sproles wanted to head directly north-south as soon as he can.
He (Sproles) had at least 18 yards to the side line (that's more than a third the width of the football field).
It's true that the spot of the ball was different and Sproles had the open side of the field to work with as opposed to the short side on his TD run; nevertheless Barwin did loose containment.
You can't say the same about Mario as the following example will make it clearer.
...

There was a similar play by us in the third quarter
1-10-NO 30 (1:26) B.Tate left end to NO 22 for 8 yards (J.Galette).
where we sent Jacoby crashing on their End man and pulled LT D. Brown to the outside.
Jacoby kept the weakside DE at least 11 yards from the side line.
He had no chance at Tate.

The CB Robinson (playing about 3 yards off the LOS) was able to engage D. Brown 3 yards in the backfield and just outside the numbers.

And Tate was still able to get 8 yards.

With Robinson playing like Allen, Tate would have been able to kick into high gear and burst past the safety #33 Greer before the LBs can arrive.
(Tate did make the safety and a LB miss, but he had to slow down giving other defenders time to recover - otherwise this could have been a 30yd TD run for us if their secondary had played poorly like ours; ie. Allen and Nolan.)
.....

Back to the TD run by Sproles.


First off, it was 3rd and 3 but the Saints were in single back shotgun spread with 2 receivers on each side.
The Texans have to play both the run and the pass.

The Saints ran the TE across Mario's face (there was some hand-fighting going on there, but the main design was to slow down Mario and to distract him).
The TE then crashed onto Watt as the RG took him head on.

While Mario's attention was now drawn to the pulling RT, the WR crash-blocked him from the side (there might have been a push in the back, but no matter.)
Mario was 3 yards into the backfield and was able to string the RB Sproles wide.
Sproles had at most 7 yards to work with.
Mario was able to get off the block unlike the Saints 43 WDE.
He was also able to reach out and try to grab Sproles while the Saints DE was completely out of the play at the POA.

When the QB pitched the ball to Sproles, the RT pulled to the outside of the TE and WR. At the time the ball was halfway to Sproles, Allen was a little more than 5 yards from the LOS. At this point, Allen was supposed to read run and stepped up to become the force man (like Robinson did in the example above) but he didn't.

The RT took five more steps to go around the edge to get to the LOS.
Yet, Allen was still five yards away from the LOS; this is a big NO NO as compared to the Saints CB Robinson.

And when the RT took out Allen 5 yards past the LOS, it made the job impossible for Manning.
If Allen had engaged the RT about 2 yards past the LOS, Manning (and possibly Barwin as well) could have brought Sproles down.

(This is also the play where Nolan missed the tackle that I had mentioned.)

So in summary, yes, Mario did his job unlike Barwin or the Saints WDE.

When I get to the film study of the game, I think I'll bring up some screen shots.

The Cush
02-02-2012, 12:44 PM
Thanks for the more extensive breakdown 76, great stuff as always! Unfortunately whenever evidence is presented to dale that goes against his argument he just ignores it, just like:

"Mario doesn't EVER get double teamed or have any extra attention focused to him". (Proven wrong by this thread and any other game tape you put on)

"Mario only has one pass rush move." (Proven wrong by Mario himself)

"Mario is not a mentor to any of the young players in the front 7." (Proven wrong by JJ Watt's mouth)

"The defense never would have taken off if Mario hadn't of gone down." (Despite the defense being ranked in the top 5 during those games Mario played in)



I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.


Guys like Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasselback, John Gruden are paid to analyze football on a daily basis. That is their job. If you honestly feel you've studied more game film on Mario or just in general than guys like them, who say Mario has a variety of pass rush moves because they see it on the film just like the rest of us do then you are more delusional they what I/we initially thought. I'm about 100% sure though your response to this will be they don't watch as much film as you do. "They are ex-athletes/coaches with a TV gig, they don't know what they are talking about. They probably roll out of bed and go to the set there's no way they take that job seriously." In the classic dalemurphy underselling fashion.

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the more extensive breakdown 76, great stuff as always! Unfortunately whenever evidence is presented to dale that goes against his argument he just ignores it, just like:

"Mario doesn't EVER get double teamed or have any extra attention focused to him". (Proven wrong by this thread and any other game tape you put on)

"Mario only has one pass rush move." (Proven wrong by Mario himself)

"Mario is not a mentor to any of the young players in the front 7." (Proven wrong by JJ Watt's mouth)

"The defense never would have taken off if Mario hadn't of gone down." (Despite the defense being ranked in the top 5 during those games Mario played in)



Guys like Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasselback, John Gruden are paid to analyze football on a daily basis. That is their job. If you honestly feel you've studied more game film on Mario or just in general than guys like them, who say Mario has a variety of pass rush moves because they see it on the film just like the rest of us do then you are more delusional they what I/we initially thought. I'm about 100% sure though your response to this will be they don't watch as much film as you do. "They are ex-athletes/coaches with a TV gig, they don't know what they are talking about. They probably roll out of bed and go to the set there's no way they take that job seriously." In the classic dalemurphy underselling fashion.


Cush, so you agree with 76Texan's analysis of Kareem Jackson's performance? (Two people can watch the same thing and draw different conclusions without having a special agenda). I respect 76Texan but often disagree with his conclusions. As I do this time.

Your quotations are misrepresentations of what I have said.

I have said Mario only has one pass rush move. Let me change that: Mario only has one effective pass rush move.

Rey
02-02-2012, 01:44 PM
I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.



I'm don't think that everything that every former pro or college athlete says is correct, but your statement seems like you are trying to discount the value of that experience.

mussop
02-02-2012, 02:38 PM
Guys like Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasselback, John Gruden are paid to analyze football on a daily basis. That is their job. If you honestly feel you've studied more game film on Mario or just in general than guys like them, who say Mario has a variety of pass rush moves because they see it on the film just like the rest of us do.
'
Not calling you out or anything but a link showing where professional analyst have said Mario has a variety of pass rush moves would be nice!

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 02:54 PM
I'm don't think that everything that every former pro or college athlete says is correct, but your statement seems like you are trying to discount the value of that experience.

It's not their experience I discount, but I do discount what they present in the forums like Sportscenter, NFL Live, MNF, etc...

These are some of the same people that also made fun of the Texans for not draft Reggie Bush... for years. I knew Bush was a vastly overrated running back 3 years before these talking heads did. These are also the guys that talked about what a great player safety Roy Williams was when I knew he was mediocre at best. Usually, when all of them are of one voice is when they are least accurate in their assessments.

The Cush
02-02-2012, 04:10 PM
Cush, so you agree with 76Texan's analysis of Kareem Jackson's performance? (Two people can watch the same thing and draw different conclusions without having a special agenda). I respect 76Texan but often disagree with his conclusions. As I do this time.


I was actually only referring to the part about the Darren Sproles run. That's the only part I read.

The Cush
02-02-2012, 04:34 PM
'
Not calling you out or anything but a link showing where professional analyst have said Mario has a variety of pass rush moves would be nice!

They always do a little piece on Mario at the beginning of every Texans game which I don't have on my computer. I also don't have episodes of NFL Live on my computer. But doing a quick search on youtube I found a couple..

Tom Jackson breaks down Mario's game. (This will probably be discredited because this was when NFL Live was big on showing Madden simulations)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdJzOUdQo8

Gary Kubiak talking about Mario as part of the Top 100 list. (This will probably be discredited because its Gary). It also contains Mario fighting off a TE and then spin moving the LT for a sack at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHwQSraaPY

I'll look for more later and post them if I can find any

Bulls on Parade
02-02-2012, 04:38 PM
I'd like to see a breakdown of Mario Williams' game against the Steelers. He was all over Big Ben in that game I remember.

The Cush
02-02-2012, 05:55 PM
'
Not calling you out or anything but a link showing where professional analyst have said Mario has a variety of pass rush moves would be nice!

Here's a few more..

Robert Mathis talking about the need to focus multiple blockers on Mario

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100-2011/09000d5d81f5650c/Top-100-Bonus-Mario-Williams

Warren Sapp with a breakdown of Mario, shows outside and insides moves.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81fecf43/article/cowher-thinks-texans-williams-has-chance-to-succeed-in-34

NFL Network's Bucky Brooks with an interactive scouting reports that touches on how he uses his hands in a couple of ways

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81fc4721/article/texans-de-williams-has-physical-tools-to-convert-to-olb

dalemurphy
02-02-2012, 08:52 PM
They always do a little piece on Mario at the beginning of every Texans game which I don't have on my computer. I also don't have episodes of NFL Live on my computer. But doing a quick search on youtube I found a couple..

Tom Jackson breaks down Mario's game. (This will probably be discredited because this was when NFL Live was big on showing Madden simulations)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdJzOUdQo8

Gary Kubiak talking about Mario as part of the Top 100 list. (This will probably be discredited because its Gary). It also contains Mario fighting off a TE and then spin moving the LT for a sack at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHwQSraaPY

I'll look for more later and post them if I can find any

Yeah, he was looking very good back in 2007 and 2008... Though, you are right, the video game highlights don't really do it for me. Sorry.

That "spin move" is no more a spin move than rolling out of bed is. It is an edge rush and after the QB steps forward, Mario turns towards the line of scrimmage to chase him down. Good play. good effort. It says nothing about his variety of pass rush moves though.

You guys are so desperate to hunt for evidence. We are talking about a 6 year starter who earned almost $20 million last year. If I acknowledge that it is likely that over the course of his six years in the NFL he may have, on occasion, showcased more than one move, then will you be able to move on?

By the way, I wouldn't give a monster contract to Julius Peppers either. I know Mario has had many very good moments. He has had many fewer since midway through the '09 season though. And, very few against good offensive lines (I actually can't recall any nor have I seen any presented in these highlights). He's been great against Indy in Houston the past three seasons, that is true. When Mario is playing for some NFC team, every time I watch him play, I will fondly remember his contribution to this day in 2010 (the beginning of the end for Peyton):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuQOe8KQLlQ


I'd love the guy if he had Antonio's motor and could stay healthy. Unfortunately, I've seen nothing since 2008 to make me believe that will be the case. And, I'm not sure how a $30-$40 million signing bonus is going to help those things happen.

76Texan
02-02-2012, 10:57 PM
Yeah, he was looking very good back in 2007 and 2008... Though, you are right, the video game highlights don't really do it for me. Sorry.

That "spin move" is no more a spin move than rolling out of bed is. It is an edge rush and after the QB steps forward, Mario turns towards the line of scrimmage to chase him down. Good play. good effort. It says nothing about his variety of pass rush moves though.

You guys are so desperate to hunt for evidence. We are talking about a 6 year starter who earned almost $20 million last year. If I acknowledge that it is likely that over the course of his six years in the NFL he may have, on occasion, showcased more than one move, then will you be able to move on?

By the way, I wouldn't give a monster contract to Julius Peppers either. I know Mario has had many very good moments. He has had many fewer since midway through the '09 season though. And, very few against good offensive lines (I actually can't recall any nor have I seen any presented in these highlights). He's been great against Indy in Houston the past three seasons, that is true. When Mario is playing for some NFC team, every time I watch him play, I will fondly remember his contribution to this day in 2010 (the beginning of the end for Peyton):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuQOe8KQLlQ


I'd love the guy if he had Antonio's motor and could stay healthy. Unfortunately, I've seen nothing since 2008 to make me believe that will be the case. And, I'm not sure how a $30-$40 million signing bonus is going to help those things happen.

Shaq doesn't need to have many moves to be a dominant force inside on offense.
Jabbar didn't have many moves either.
The same goes for several great centers or power forwards in the NBA.

The results is what you should be after.

For example, back in 09 when PFF still had free membership, some of us on this board had seen the numbers they recorded.

Mario ranked third with a combined of some 90 (sacks, QB Hurries, QB Hits, QB Pressures.)

Personally, I'm not sure if they get all the situations correctly, but even if the numbers change somewhat.

If I remember correctly, I told Hou-Tex that I set a number for Smith at 48 to achieve in order to earn his keep. He did a little better than that.
Then he earned his real worth in 2010.
He didn't play as well in 2011, but I'm satisfied with Smith because I've stated last season (in 2010) that it will be the Texans' turn to draw interest on the Smith's deal.

As a guy who had noticed all of these things from Smith, I've also said that Mario had a very good year in 2010 until his last game of that season (against Philly) after which they had to shut him down for the year.
And I'm saying that Mario also had a very good season in 2011, and the new injury was a fluke injury that doesn't have any more chance of recurrence for Mario as it is for any healthy player who had never suffered from it.

76Texan
02-02-2012, 10:59 PM
Here's a few more..

Robert Mathis talking about the need to focus multiple blockers on Mario

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100-2011/09000d5d81f5650c/Top-100-Bonus-Mario-Williams

Warren Sapp with a breakdown of Mario, shows outside and insides moves.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81fecf43/article/cowher-thinks-texans-williams-has-chance-to-succeed-in-34

NFL Network's Bucky Brooks with an interactive scouting reports that touches on how he uses his hands in a couple of ways

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81fc4721/article/texans-de-williams-has-physical-tools-to-convert-to-olb
Thanks for all the links, Cush.