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gtexan02
01-16-2012, 11:04 AM
Against Cincinnati TJ Yates was an unspectacular 11/20 for 159 yards and 1 TD. A huge chunk of that came on one deep ball to AJ. However he accounted for no turnovers and completed key 3rd down passes. He managed the game really well and was a big part of that win.

Against Baltimore TJ pretty much single-handedly accounted for our ineffectiveness on offense. Despite a record shattering performance by Arian Foster, he ended up 17/35 for 184 yards with 3 INTs. There were several dropped INTs as well (one by Ray Lewis, one by Ed Reed, and may be more that I can't remember).

It leaves you wondering "What if Matt Schaub were healthy..." or "How good of a day would Foster have had if they were scared of our passing game..."

Anyway, the two games looked like they featured totally different quarterbacks. One who was very careful with the ball and one who was very sloppy. So what do you think the main difference was? (I realize the easy answer would be that all of them played a part in our loss, but the goal of the poll is to see which you feel was the most important factor). I'm curious what other people feel so that we can figure out what the best way to prepare for next season is, and also whether or not Schaub would have made that much of a difference.

Choice 1: Jacoby Jones -
That fumble changed the momentum of the game. We were ahead, had made a great stop on defense, and then gave up the lead. Being down early forced Yates to be more aggressive and ended up resulting in another turnover. That led to points as well. All of Yates INTs came when he was trying to make up ground quickly, and this first fumble by Jones set the inevitable train in motion.

Choice 2: Baltimore's defense -
Baltimore had the #3 total defense vs Cincinnati's #7. Baltimore was #4 against the pass, Cincinnati #9. Interestingly Baltimore was #1 in passer rating allowed while Cincinnati was #17.
Was the defense in Baltimore just so much better that it made the majority of the difference against Yates?

Choice 3: Home field advantage -
It was loud on defense in Baltimore while our crowd gave our team a huge boost in Houston. Was the crowd noise the biggest problem?

Choice 4: Lack of legitimate secondary receivers -
It seems like the majority of INTs came when Yates decided he was going to throw to AJ even when he wasn't open. Was this because our other WRs simply weren't getting open?

Choice 5: Rookie inexperience -
As above, but was the reason rookie inexperience vs lack of options? Did being a rookie and lacking the discipline and experience to survey all your passing routes finally catch up to Yates? A few times in the game Yates played like a true veteran (spinning out of sacks, throwing the ball away). And yet others he looked every bit the rookie that he really is.

Mr. Texan
01-16-2012, 11:05 AM
all of the above

Scooter
01-16-2012, 11:07 AM
all of the above

yup.

MojoMan
01-16-2012, 11:09 AM
All of the above.

Yates did about as well as can reasonably be expected. It was just too big of a responsibility for him at this stage of his career. He has earned the privilege to continue his professional development as an NFL quarterback with his performance out on the field. And that will happen.

In fact, if Matt Schaub had played yesterday, I expect that the Texans would have won that game. And he will be back next year, which should be a really good year for the Houston Texans.

StarStruck
01-16-2012, 11:10 AM
# 2

PHAROAH
01-16-2012, 11:11 AM
Yes all of those points are pretty accurate but I would move up no true option at the #2 or #3 WR position that was huge and pretty obvious no other WR could open when we needed them.

IlliniJen
01-16-2012, 11:12 AM
Rookie inexperience. He didn't seem to read through progressions and forced the ball way too many times. I thought he was zeroing in on the play that was called and not going to other options if available. There were 3 interceptions in our two playoff games that were not made because the DBs just didn't make the play...so in total, his turnovers should have been much higher.

I was also not impressed with his accuracy on some throws. I don't know if this problem has been nerves or what...but while he can throw to the middle (although behind his receivers some times), I don't get the impression with a small body of work that he's comfortable working to the sidelines.

At this point, it's really hard for me to see whether or not he's starter material in a couple years. Who knows, with a full training camp and time on the sideline to watch and really digest what's happening on the field, he may emerge in 2 years as a very promising starter for the team's future. Right now, I'm not sold.

Ranger Tom
01-16-2012, 11:12 AM
all of the above

This.

cuppacoffee
01-16-2012, 11:27 AM
TJ just had too much confidence in AJ making the play if he just threw it up there.

Rook got tons of experience that he would not have gotten had things turned out differently.

Maybe it will pay dividends in the future.


:coffee:

ObsiWan
01-16-2012, 11:34 AM
Rookie inexperience. He didn't seem to read through progressions and forced the ball way too many times. I thought he was zeroing in on the play that was called and not going to other options if available. There were 3 interceptions in our two playoff games that were not made because the DBs just didn't make the play...so in total, his turnovers should have been much higher.

I was also not impressed with his accuracy on some throws. I don't know if this problem has been nerves or what...but while he can throw to the middle (although behind his receivers some times), I don't get the impression with a small body of work that he's comfortable working to the sidelines.

At this point, it's really hard for me to see whether or not he's starter material in a couple years. Who knows, with a full training camp and time on the sideline to watch and really digest what's happening on the field, he may emerge in 2 years as a very promising starter for the team's future. Right now, I'm not sold.

Actually I agree with you're entire post. But the prime reason is that he's not NFL-ready. Not yet.

This... I thought he was zeroing in on the play that was called and not going to other options if available. ...is what he needs to work on the most.

I've watched the game twice now and he could have possibly thrown 2 or 3 additional picks if the Ravens don't drop them or our guys don't end up playing DB to break up his passes.

He never seemed to relax and just play football. And each pick - or near pick - seemed to make him that much more uptight.

Lastly, if Yates lets Jacoby's fumble - that happened FIVE MINUTES into a 60-minute game - rattle him for 55 minutes then he damn sure ain't ready to be a leader.
A leader steps up. A leader would have said, "shake it off Jacoby, we're going to get that one back and then some."
I'll bet you a C-note that's what Schaub would have done.
Maybe, after a few years of seasoning, that's what Yates will do.
But he ain't ready today.

H.C.4100-Bloc
01-16-2012, 11:35 AM
# 5

texanhead08
01-16-2012, 11:37 AM
The biggest play I have a problem with was the last offensive snap. Its 4th and 2 and you throw a hail mary. We probably have 2 more snaps if we just get the first down and get out of bounds. That was a horrible decesion on Yates part.

Texecutioner
01-16-2012, 11:41 AM
What happened is exactly what people should have expected to happen. He was an inexperienced rookie that was thrown into the fire and had to play an experienced Ravens team in the playoffs. THe fact that people were predicting SB runs for Yates during the regular season was ridiculous to say the least.

I just hope that people can get off this Yates bandwagon from this point on, because his ceiling is not ever going to be that high. He is not the future of this team. He is capable of probably being a decent QB in this league like a Mark Sanchez/Jake Delhomme/Joe Flacco type at some point, but he's never going to be capable of being an elite level type of passer. I like the guy and respect what he tried to do considering the situation he was thrown in, but I never once saw anything spectacular from this kid.

The Texans need to start looking for Schaub's replacement in the next two seasons in the draft to start grooming for when Schaub is no longer playing at his best level or when another really bad injury occurs. Yates is "not" that guy to be counted on for the future. Hell no.

Mr. Texan
01-16-2012, 11:43 AM
I think some of you had unrealistic expectations of TJ. He's a rookie going on the road against a great defense and looked like a rookie going on the road against a great defense.

look at the film
learn from your mistakes
and move on to try and become a better qb.

Speedy
01-16-2012, 11:44 AM
Getting the ball to AJ as much as you can is always good, but him being on the field gets other guys open too, and Yates just wasn't going to/finding those guys.

I recall one play where Yates tried to force it to AJ and Walter was streaking down the middle wide open.

When AJ draws crowds, find the open man. That's part of AJ's greatness.

Double Barrel
01-16-2012, 11:46 AM
TJ is a rookie playing against a great defense with years of playoff experience. It would have been very unusual for him to beat that defense, and it's the primary reason why the majority of analysts and non-Texans fans predicted a win for the Ravens.

The great thing about this team, though, is that they could have won the game even with a rookie QB.

This loss will certainly make this team better next season. No moral victories in my world, but every experience provides lessons that can greatly improve individual players and teams as a whole.

They just need to go into the 2012 season with more weapons on offense and no Jacoby Jones on the roster.

Speedy
01-16-2012, 11:47 AM
I think some of you had unrealistic expectations of TJ. He's a rookie going on the road against a great defense and looked like a rookie going on the road against a great defense.

look at the film
learn from your mistakes
and move on to try and become a better qb.

I didn't have unrealistic expectations. But I do think he tried to put a little more on his shoulders when all he needed to do is what he's been doing, and that's not forcing things and not making mistakes.

Corrosion
01-16-2012, 11:48 AM
Ed Reed happened to Yates ..... :truck:

Mr. Texan
01-16-2012, 11:54 AM
I didn't have unrealistic expectations. But I do think he tried to put a little more on his shoulders when all he needed to do is what he's been doing, and that's not forcing things and not making mistakes.


i'd rather tj takes chances then play ultra conservative like the colts game.

he did some good things (eluded sure sacks to make plays) and did some bad things.

let's not forget he actually won a playoff game (not to specifically accredit him with the win because it was a team effort) and 2 wins over playoff teams in the regular season to get us to this point.

Playoffs
01-16-2012, 11:55 AM
Rook.

thunderkyss
01-16-2012, 12:00 PM
To me, that's what it looks like when you take the cuffs off the rookie.

If he could have played a solid game like he did in Cincy.... we'd have been much better off.

Norg
01-16-2012, 12:05 PM
THE U happend :mariopalm:


ED REED

EVOLVIST
01-16-2012, 12:09 PM
In this poll I would have to say inexperience...but in reality I lean towards none of the above.

The reason? I think there's a pretty good chance that TJ Yates was over-coached, at no fault of the coaches and/or backup QBs. As Yates' starts increased, the general consenus was that he was an accident waiting to happen, i.e. that the true rookie would come out eventually. You could see TJ teetering on the brink several times, despite posting better completion rates and QB ratings. But one thing (of many) I marked as the season wore on...

As opposed to his first few games, Yates demeanor changed in interviews. His verbiage changed, as well. Instead of a high level of confidence, as exhibited early on, he started speaking more about his mistakes in practice. Kubiak changed his tune a little, too. More and more Yates began to speak of how much Schaub, Leinart, Jake and Garcia were helping him. Then you have Knapp, Dennison and Kubiak. That's 4 more people in his ear than Schaub would have gotten.

The point is, after the Cincy game, I don't even think Yates' footwork looked the same; and though Yates looked pretty calm on the sidelines, it looked like that was more out of meekness rather than the fire we saw when he talked back to Kubiak there on the sidelines that one game.

In a nutshell, once they began going conservative on offense, there was no turning back for such a young guy. Then they attempted to put in a less conservative gameplan, and it made Yates unsure of himself instead of using his natural abilities. The punch in his play was gone.

I hope it didn't ruin him. If it didn't, then TJ Yates should be a damn good QB in the future if he really takes from this experience.

beerlover
01-16-2012, 12:11 PM
None of the above. All his WR's dissapeared in crunch time. It was like they ran away from opportunities to make plays on the ball. I'm I the only one who noticed TJ Yates last bomb, into the endzone, hit Kevin Walter on back of his neck? He never even turned head.

Texecutioner
01-16-2012, 12:14 PM
Ed Reed happened to Yates ..... :truck:

He threw the ball into double coverage where Reed was. He should have been a lot more strategic about knowing to be careful about throwing near Reed of all people like that. Reed's been making big plays for years so the last thing you ever want to do is throw a floater in the air into double coverage with him around there. That's just asking for mistakes. Yates did that all game to Reed and never seemed to realize how costly it kept being. Rookie QB or not, it was just stupid.

run-david-run
01-16-2012, 12:17 PM
One thing that stuck out to me was the Baltimore defensive gameplan. I think everyone was expecting for the type of game our defense played (5 sacks, constant pressure, very aggressive) and instead we got a bunch of deep safeties and double coverage.

Yates did struggle somewhat against the blitz in the Bengals game, but he also made the biggest play of the game against it. I don't know if this was the Ravens plan all along or if they took it up after they jumped to a big lead, but it really put a lot of pressure on Yates to make good decisions against a lot of defenders, and the result was obviously 3 picks.

Had Schaub been playing, or if we had been playing with a lead, the Ravens could not afford to give us as much time in the pocket and as much success as we had on the ground, and they would have been forced to expose their corners to single coverage a lot more often, but that's the bad luck we had and the hole we dug ourselves in.

KA4Texan
01-17-2012, 06:46 PM
So according to the poll, do 67.39% believe that JD or JG would have won that game for us?

HJam72
01-17-2012, 09:09 PM
One thing that stuck out to me was the Baltimore defensive gameplan. I think everyone was expecting for the type of game our defense played (5 sacks, constant pressure, very aggressive) and instead we got a bunch of deep safeties and double coverage.

Yates did struggle somewhat against the blitz in the Bengals game, but he also made the biggest play of the game against it. I don't know if this was the Ravens plan all along or if they took it up after they jumped to a big lead, but it really put a lot of pressure on Yates to make good decisions against a lot of defenders, and the result was obviously 3 picks.

Had Schaub been playing, or if we had been playing with a lead, the Ravens could not afford to give us as much time in the pocket and as much success as we had on the ground, and they would have been forced to expose their corners to single coverage a lot more often, but that's the bad luck we had and the hole we dug ourselves in.

It was their game-plan. Last thing Kubiak said in the after-game press conference was that he and his staff didn't expect that and had to make adjustments in the middle of the 1st quarter. Yates is better at avoiding sacks than he is at avoiding Ints. when there is full coverage by a darn good secondary.

TexanSam
01-17-2012, 09:55 PM
So according to the poll, do 67.39% believe that JD or JG would have won that game for us?

Hard to say. As inexperienced as Yates was, Delhomme and Garcia may have made mistakes as well. My gut says Delhomme would have given us a better chance to win but we'll never know.

The Pencil Neck
01-17-2012, 10:10 PM
It was just a perfect storm of imperfection.

TJ is a rook. He played great. For a rook. He still had us in position to win the game at the end and hit KW in the shoulder on a surprise hail-mary that could have worked.

But ultimately, he was a rook. He wasn't making the right decisions. He was locking onto guys and trying to force them to make a play. Other times, he wasn't seeing that he was being baited into making the wrong throw. He wasn't taking what the defense was giving him, he was trying to force things.

Grid
01-17-2012, 11:29 PM
All of the above is true.. all of these things contributed, but as to why we lost the game.. id blame that one on the Ravens Defense.

All of these issues have been apparent since yates became the starter, but it was the Ravens defense which created a situation in which these factors cost us the game. A less skilled defense would have allowed us to squeak by and win the game.. especially considering how great our defense was playing.

Jacoby (and turk) provided us with horrible field position all day, and Jones made us play from behind.

A lack of secondary receiving options hurt...and the ball was going to Andre a little too often.

Homefield advantage... I like to think that the crowd support in Reliant would have pushed us towards making a couple big plays on offense but im not so sure. And its not like our defense needed any help shutting down the Ravens offense. The turnovers on offense were the gamebreaker.

Rookie inexperience was probably the second biggest issue. Yates has great poise...great touch on the ball..and great pocket awareness.. but he seemed like he was having issues playing at the NFL speed. He wasnt doing a great job on checking down and he had problems staring down his receivers. A couple more seasons on the bench might cure these issues.

TexanSam
01-17-2012, 11:31 PM
It was their game-plan. Last thing Kubiak said in the after-game press conference was that he and his staff didn't expect that and had to make adjustments in the middle of the 1st quarter. Yates is better at avoiding sacks than he is at avoiding Ints. when there is full coverage by a darn good secondary.

Pretty good gameplan by the Ravens. Even if Kubiak and the team had prepared for it, I'm not sure if it would have made much of a difference. Can't teach a rookie how to read coverages like the Ravens show in a week.

NastyNate
01-18-2012, 03:14 AM
Baltimore sending few blitzers and dropping 7 into strong coverage killed Yates' reads. Yates is a rookie. Ed Reed is simply unbelievable (can we clone 2 of him?) and Jacoby's fumble sucked it up as well. And the receivers disappeared. All valid reasons.

This was a team loss.

qman_tx
01-18-2012, 04:56 AM
TJ is a gunslinger like Rex Grossman but more athletic:

https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/tj%20yates%20grossman

ObsiWan
01-18-2012, 07:06 AM
TJ is a gunslinger like Rex Grossman but more athletic:

https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/tj%20yates%20grossman

I hadn't thought of it that way.
Some of those tweets were kinda funny

Texan_Bill
01-18-2012, 07:22 AM
Which one?
Jacoby Jones
Baltimore's defense
Home field advantage
Lack of secondary receiving options
Rookie inexperience

All of the above.

It was a tall order for a 5th round rookie QB who was inactive for the first 10 weeks of the season to overcome all of the above.

welsh texan
01-18-2012, 08:33 AM
Got to think that TJ's development will be given a massive boost for having this opportunity to carry the team through what, by rights, should have been a wasted season.

You lose your best player on D for the season, Your QB for the season, your best 2 players on O for much of the season, and plenty of other key pieces, thats when you expect a team to collapse.

What happened was a huge confidence booster and showed that the team can pull through together.

As for TJ, QB's in his position (Drafted 5th round) wouldn't normally get the chance to see the field for years, if at all, apart from a few pre season snaps here and there.

Now Yates goes back to being a backup with all that great experience, and can work on his deficiencies whilst understanding what they look like in a real game. You'd have to think that as long as he's strong minded enough to not let the INT's in the final game bother him, then it'll be a huge positive for him as he sits for a few years.

As for Schaub, here's hoping he's ready to go by the start of the season, but even if he does return healthy, the guy is no spring chicken and is the wrong side of 30 I believe, so conceivably Yates has a chance to take over the reigns from him at some point in the medium-long term future, which has to be great motivation for the guy to continue to work hard.

Rey
01-18-2012, 08:46 AM
None of the above. All his WR's dissapeared in crunch time. It was like they ran away from opportunities to make plays on the ball. I'm I the only one who noticed TJ Yates last bomb, into the endzone, hit Kevin Walter on back of his neck? He never even turned head.

I thought it hit his forearm???

Anywho...

Maybe I'm one of the few, but I don't think Yates played bad at all. I think he played pretty good. He actually made some plays against that d...

The one play where he got away from Ngata to complete that pass was very nice.

He threw some bad balls, but I think considering the circumstances he played very well and we could have won with how he played.

NastyNate
01-18-2012, 09:03 AM
TJ is a gunslinger like Rex Grossman but more athletic:

https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/tj%20yates%20grossman

Oh man, "F#$K it, I'm going deep." -- Rex Grossman/TJ Yates



That had to be my favorite bwhahaha!

DBCooper
01-18-2012, 09:11 AM
None of the above.

Yates problem is he has no zip on the ball. Weak ass passes.

Bad decision making aside, the ball takes way too long to get there.

The good QBs throw into tight coverage all the time and get it done with mustard on the ball.

HJam72
01-18-2012, 09:42 AM
Um, he throws harder than Schaub by a mile, although he's no John Elway.

DBCooper
01-18-2012, 09:45 AM
Um, he throws harder than Schaub by a mile, although he's no John Elway.

I don't see it.

His passes look soft and alot of air underneath.

Maybe Schaub gets away with it by having superior ball placement.

GuerillaBlack
01-18-2012, 09:51 AM
I don't see it.

His passes look soft and alot of air underneath.

Maybe Schaub gets away with it by having superior ball placement.

Yates has a quick release. Remember that td to Dreesen in the Atlanta game?

The Pencil Neck
01-18-2012, 10:25 AM
None of the above.

Yates problem is he has no zip on the ball. Weak ass passes.

Bad decision making aside, the ball takes way too long to get there.

The good QBs throw into tight coverage all the time and get it done with mustard on the ball.

I don't see this at all. Yates has a stronger arm that Schaub and he can and has fit the ball into tighter windows than Schaub.

The problem is when he tries to throw a touch pass like the one he threw to Tate that floated and didn't make it all the way there. That's not a problem with arm strength, that's a problem with a defensive player standing between him and his target and him trying to throw a touch pass. When he tries to finesse a ball in, it floats and doesn't have enough juice on it. But in those cases, he HAD to finesse the ball in because it would have been batted down and possibly intercepted if he hadn't.

Yankee_In_TX
01-18-2012, 10:26 AM
All of the above.

Yates did about as well as can reasonably be expected. It was just too big of a responsibility for him at this stage of his career. He has earned the privilege to continue his professional development as an NFL quarterback with his performance out on the field. And that will happen.

In fact, if Matt Schaub had played yesterday, I expect that the Texans would have won that game. And he will be back next year, which should be a really good year for the Houston Texans.

/thread

Texanator
01-18-2012, 10:28 AM
All the above AND the fact that Kubes stopped running the ball. He should have used Tate more often also.

BullNation4Life
01-18-2012, 10:28 AM
Hell the OP didn't need a poll for this thread, he answered his own question...

Everything he listed was the reason...

Goldensilence
01-18-2012, 10:53 AM
What happened is exactly what people should have expected to happen. He was an inexperienced rookie that was thrown into the fire and had to play an experienced Ravens team in the playoffs. THe fact that people were predicting SB runs for Yates during the regular season was ridiculous to say the least.

I just hope that people can get off this Yates bandwagon from this point on, because his ceiling is not ever going to be that high. He is not the future of this team. He is capable of probably being a decent QB in this league like a Mark Sanchez/Jake Delhomme/Joe Flacco type at some point, but he's never going to be capable of being an elite level type of passer. I like the guy and respect what he tried to do considering the situation he was thrown in, but I never once saw anything spectacular from this kid.

The Texans need to start looking for Schaub's replacement in the next two seasons in the draft to start grooming for when Schaub is no longer playing at his best level or when another really bad injury occurs. Yates is "not" that guy to be counted on for the future. Hell no.

Great assessment.

I like Yates' raw tool set, but I think with a healthy Matt Schaub at the helm this team wins at Baltimore. I don't think it would hurt at all to have some better secondary receiving options.

Totally agree on Schaub's replacement. I really like what Matt brings to the table for the most part, but I would really love a guy with a little more athleticism and a bigger arm. Is Yates his eventual replacement? To early to tell either way IMO.

DBCooper
01-18-2012, 02:30 PM
I don't see this at all. Yates has a stronger arm that Schaub and he can and has fit the ball into tighter windows than Schaub.

The problem is when he tries to throw a touch pass like the one he threw to Tate that floated and didn't make it all the way there. That's not a problem with arm strength, that's a problem with a defensive player standing between him and his target and him trying to throw a touch pass. When he tries to finesse a ball in, it floats and doesn't have enough juice on it. But in those cases, he HAD to finesse the ball in because it would have been batted down and possibly intercepted if he hadn't.

I'm not saying his arm strength isn't better, it is, I've seen it, the problem is that too many of his passes are too soft and without confidence.

And Drew Brees throws balls with zip all the time and he's not very tall for a QB.

I like Yates, he just needs to get some confidence and let it fly.

These soft touch passes suck.

Double Barrel
01-18-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm not saying his arm strength isn't better, it is, I've seen it, the problem is that too many of his passes are too soft and without confidence.

And Drew Brees throws balls with zip all the time and he's not very tall for a QB.

I like Yates, he just needs to get some confidence and let it fly.

These soft touch passes suck.

You're comparing Drew Brees to a rookie. Drew Brees. A rookie.

BTW, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But, Yates is a rookie thrown into the fire without the benefit of an off-season and who was inactive for the first 10 weeks. The only action he saw was tossing balls to a rehabbing Andre Johnson. I just can't slam the kid's long term potential right now.

Thorn
01-18-2012, 02:49 PM
Some of you discount Yates future as a QB a little to much. I think he has a much brighter future in this league than just a steady hand at the number two position. But yeah, he had to much on him for his experience level.

Now, for arguments sake, had he been coached up from the start of the season like Andy Dalton or Cam Newton and did what he did, that would be a much different arguement. Even Flaccid was making mistakes.

No matter. Yates will be back next year on this team and he'll be a better backup to Schaub because of his experience this year.

DBCooper
01-18-2012, 03:11 PM
You're comparing Drew Brees to a rookie. Drew Brees. A rookie.

BTW, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But, Yates is a rookie thrown into the fire without the benefit of an off-season and who was inactive for the first 10 weeks. The only action he saw was tossing balls to a rehabbing Andre Johnson. I just can't slam the kid's long term potential right now.

I just want to see some zip. He could have made a lot more completions let alone had fewer interceptions if he had used that arm of his.

And I'm not slamming his potential, he has a tremendous upside, composure, pocket presence ect.

Fire it in there, if you decide you are going to throw.

Double Barrel
01-18-2012, 04:28 PM
I'm just want to see some zip. He could have made a lot more completions let alone had fewer interceptions if he had used that arm of his.

And I'm not slamming his potential, he has a tremendous upside, composure, pocket presence ect.

Fire it in there, if you decide you are going to throw.

yep, I agree with you.

It was mentioned in one article that Texan receivers were adjusting to his increase velocity on the ball, so he's definitely got the arm.

I suspect that his inexperience leads to the mental hesitation that causes his mechanics to break down and accuracy to suffer.

Hopefully, being the no. 2 QB behind Schaub will allow him to grow and fix these deficiencies over time.

Scooter
01-18-2012, 07:24 PM
i think you're both right. yates does have a pretty good arm, much stronger than schaub's, but he tries to float his passes WAY too often. he's much less accurate when trying to feather the ball in than when he fires away. instead of placing the ball, next season i'd like to see him do on sundays what he does in practice - let it rip.

Premier
01-18-2012, 08:24 PM
I don't see it.

His passes look soft and alot of air underneath.

Maybe Schaub gets away with it by having superior ball placement.

wow, ive never heard anything like this said about schaub before.. theres a reason the texans receivers were saying that they were cranking up the jugs machines to adjust to yates' arm strength.. as for schaubs accuracy, before he went down, everyone was talking about how he couldnt hit any receiver in stride, consistently over throwing andre, and hitting OD in the feet.. schaub has a better control of this offense and 8 years of playing against NFL defenses, but lets not go overboard and make him off to be some elite quarterback, lets not dismiss his flaws just because you havent seen him play in a couple of months..

Nitrofish
01-18-2012, 08:28 PM
None of the above.

Yates problem is he has no zip on the ball. Weak ass passes.

Bad decision making aside, the ball takes way too long to get there.

The good QBs throw into tight coverage all the time and get it done with mustard on the ball.

I do not agree with this. Did you see that deep out he threw? That had mustard on it for sure. I agree more with the idea that it's his indecision that keeps him from firing it in there.

That is probably from being over coached as others have suggested. "Too many cooks spoil the broth" even though we all know it was all done with the best of intentions.

I did not see this mentioned anywhere, but did you see near the end of the game the camera shot of Delhomme sitting on the bench as if to suggest it was time to give Yates the hook, or to ponder why Kubiak was not going to the vet to see what he could do in the final minutes?

With all that said... Let it be known that I too like mustard on my balls. :shades:

DBCooper
01-18-2012, 08:40 PM
wow, ive never heard anything like this said about schaub before.. theres a reason the texans receivers were saying that they were cranking up the jugs machines to adjust to yates' arm strength.. as for schaubs accuracy, before he went down, everyone was talking about how he couldnt hit any receiver in stride, consistently over throwing andre, and hitting OD in the feet.. schaub has a better control of this offense and 8 years of playing against NFL defenses, but lets not go overboard and make him off to be some elite quarterback, lets not dismiss his flaws just because you havent seen him play in a couple of months..

Schaub has better accuracy and ball placement than Yates.

EVOLVIST
01-19-2012, 08:37 AM
He is not the future of this team. He's never going to be capable of being an elite level type of passer. Yates is "not" that guy to be counted on for the future. Hell no.

Clairvoyance. So which finger am I holding up right now?

Rey
01-19-2012, 08:49 AM
Last year Schaub threw two picks against the Ravens. One was just a terrible throw because it resulted in the game being lost. They have a good defense.

Acting like Yates is somehow behind the curve because he struggled at times against them is silly.

Schaub took four sacks and turned the ball over earlier this year against them.

Obviously Schaub is and would have been the better option, but Yates should get better. How much better is really not something we can put a crystal ball on.

TexanFan881
01-19-2012, 10:55 AM
I don't believe it is any of these options actually...

Does anyone remember what Kubiak said about how he was practicing with Yates before the game?

He was challenging Yates more than ever in practice and told him to make mistakes so that he wouldn't make them again in the game....

When you are throwing the ball in practice thinking it is okay to make mistakes, it is hard to immidiately change that mindset going into a game like that. So the games before, where his main focus was to manage the game and not turnover the ball, he was able to do that. When the focus becomes getting your mistakes out of the way, your focus is quite the opposite. In game you all saw him force a lot of passes he should have never thrown. You saw him run towards the sidelines and instead of, like all previous games before, throwing the ball out of bounds, and he forced the ball to a receiver covered (the ball was batted down by a defender). Kubiak, quite frankly, put way to much trust in him, and if he would have practiced with the mindset of Yates just game managing, we could have won.

Double Barrel
01-19-2012, 11:28 AM
I do not agree with this. Did you see that deep out he threw? That had mustard on it for sure. I agree more with the idea that it's his indecision that keeps him from firing it in there.

That is probably from being over coached as others have suggested. "Too many cooks spoil the broth" even though we all know it was all done with the best of intentions.

I did not see this mentioned anywhere, but did you see near the end of the game the camera shot of Delhomme sitting on the bench as if to suggest it was time to give Yates the hook, or to ponder why Kubiak was not going to the vet to see what he could do in the final minutes?

With all that said... Let it be known that I too like mustard on my balls. :shades:

I think you have a valid point about potential 'over-coaching'.

I think of his first game when Leinart went down, off the bench, and he runs a two minute drill for a FG.

Then the next two games, Falcons & Bengals, and he wins them at the end with great drives, one to clinch the AFCS. He just seemed like a natural in these games, and he was facing solid defenses.

At this point, maybe he became surrounded by voices. Kubiak, Dennison, and Greg Knapp (QB coach), then Schaub, Leinart, Delholmme, & Garcia, all giving him insight and wisdom and things to clutter his brain about footwork and reading defenses and checking down and looking for the blitz and and and and...

Just speculation on my part, of course. But, Yates did seem to play a lot tighter against the Panthers and Colts, like he was trying to think about everything he did on the field before he did it, instead of just following his instincts, even though they are rookie instincts.

None of us can really know how much or how little these voices contributed to anything, but it's certainly within the realm of possibilities to take into account. I'm sure it was a lot coming at him when he lacked the preparation provided by an off-season and being on the active roster for the first 3/4ths of a season.

Rey
01-19-2012, 11:40 AM
I think you have a valid point about potential 'over-coaching'.

I think of his first game when Leinart went down, off the bench, and he runs a two minute drill for a FG.

Then the next two games, Falcons & Bengals, and he wins them at the end with great drives, one to clinch the AFCS. He just seemed like a natural in these games, and he was facing solid defenses.

At this point, maybe he became surrounded by voices. Kubiak, Dennison, and Greg Knapp (QB coach), then Schaub, Leinart, Delholmme, & Garcia, all giving him insight and wisdom and things to clutter his brain about footwork and reading defenses and checking down and looking for the blitz and and and and...

Just speculation on my part, of course. But, Yates did seem to play a lot tighter against the Panthers and Colts, like he was trying to think about everything he did on the field before he did it, instead of just following his instincts, even though they are rookie instincts.

None of us can really know how much or how little these voices contributed to anything, but it's certainly within the realm of possibilities to take into account. I'm sure it was a lot coming at him when he lacked the preparation provided by an off-season and being on the active roster for the first 3/4ths of a season.

I didn't see the game, so I could be completely wrong, but the box score seems to indicate that Yates was pretty good against the Colts???

Above 100 QB rating...Only did not complete 3 passes...no picks (I think)...

Double Barrel
01-19-2012, 01:11 PM
I didn't see the game, so I could be completely wrong, but the box score seems to indicate that Yates was pretty good against the Colts???

Above 100 QB rating...Only did not complete 3 passes...no picks (I think)...

Lots of check-downs and short yardage dump offs. Sort of reminded me of David Carr's game, and this was not what he was doing against the Falcons and Bengals.

High completion percentage against the Colts, but only got 132 yards. He seemed very tentative, iirc. Almost like his reigns were pulled in, but that's just my fan impression. Not sure what was going on, since the organization is always tight-lipped about these things.

infantrycak
01-19-2012, 01:25 PM
I do not agree with this. Did you see that deep out he threw? That had mustard on it for sure. I agree more with the idea that it's his indecision that keeps him from firing it in there.

It isn't about having the ability it is about using it. The term floater was being repeatedly used where we watched the game and with good reason.

76Texan
01-19-2012, 01:38 PM
Lots of check-downs and short yardage dump offs. Sort of reminded me of David Carr's game, and this was not what he was doing against the Falcons and Bengals.

High completion percentage against the Colts, but only got 132 yards. He seemed very tentative, iirc. Almost like his reigns were pulled in, but that's just my fan impression. Not sure what was going on, since the organization is always tight-lipped about these things.

I don't think the situations and the coverage allowed Yates to go deep much in that game.

He attempted only 16 passes but was hurried 3 times (official nfl stats).
He was sacked 4 times on top of that.
The Texans were backed up close to their own end zone (twice in the first half - I just went back and took a quick look of the first half.)

The Colts were in cover 2, taking away the receiver that runs the deep route.
Those are some of the things that I saw (in the first half.)

Double Barrel
01-19-2012, 02:11 PM
I don't think the situations and the coverage allowed Yates to go deep much in that game.

He attempted only 16 passes but was hurried 3 times (official nfl stats).
He was sacked 4 times on top of that.
The Texans were backed up close to their own end zone (twice in the first half - I just went back and took a quick look of the first half.)

The Colts were in cover 2, taking away the receiver that runs the deep route.
Those are some of the things that I saw (in the first half.)

Thanks for your thoughts, man. Obviously it's been a little while since that game, which I have honestly just tried to forget after it was over, so that was just my initial memory on it.

Do you recall if they took any shots downfield? And did he seem like the same QB as he was against the Falcons and Bengals to you?

The whole team seemed like they were in a funk against the Panthers and Colts, so not trying to make TJ a scapegoat for those losses.

2012Champs
01-19-2012, 02:25 PM
Since Yates got wins in his first few games people seemed to have had high expectations or thought he was better than he really was. Fact is TJ didnt lead the offense in a way in which we would score like we normally do. TJ also had many almost, should have or called back ints that seem to go unnoticed imo. Balt could have easily had 5-6 picks instead of 3, in the Cinn game there were 1-2 that should have been picked, Atlanta his pick 6 was called back because of a play on the other side of the field totally unrelated to his int. Fact is he is a rookie and he is no Matt Schaub. Schaub's 2011 ppg average wins us 2 out of our last 3 games and would have put us 2-0 in the playoffs

2012Champs
01-19-2012, 02:27 PM
Last year Schaub threw two picks against the Ravens. One was just a terrible throw because it resulted in the game being lost. They have a good defense.

Acting like Yates is somehow behind the curve because he struggled at times against them is silly.

Schaub took four sacks and turned the ball over earlier this year against them.

Obviously Schaub is and would have been the better option, but Yates should get better. How much better is really not something we can put a crystal ball on.



Yates actually struggled through his starts. He had the great fortune of having a great D helping him

thunderkyss
01-19-2012, 05:28 PM
Kubiak, quite frankly, put way to much trust in him, and if he would have practiced with the mindset of Yates just game managing, we could have won.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. I think Kubiak took the chains off a little prematurely.

Prior to the game, I can understand thinking the kid was going to have to make things happen. But, when we got to the second half & we "knew" our defense had Flacco & Rice in check, it should have been back to "conservative Yates"

I'll have to watch it again, maybe that is what happened, because I do remember most of the throws to start the third qtr were to a wide open Aj, then he hit OD.... & KDub....

The Ravens' D did step it up the second half & we didn't score a single point. So maybe it was 4:00 left in the game & Kubiak went back to letting Yates own the game.

I don't know.

76Texan
01-19-2012, 06:55 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, man. Obviously it's been a little while since that game, which I have honestly just tried to forget after it was over, so that was just my initial memory on it.

Do you recall if they took any shots downfield? And did he seem like the same QB as he was against the Falcons and Bengals to you?

The whole team seemed like they were in a funk against the Panthers and Colts, so not trying to make TJ a scapegoat for those losses.

Oh, I know you're very level-headed; you're good in my book.

As far as the Colts game, I think it was also a case of the Colts being too proud to let us come to their house and make them look even worse.
They played hard.

Overall, for the season (including this game and the playoffs) I believe that Yates is ahead of the curve.

I've noted in at least another thread that Dalton also made many "questionable" throws during the season (especially early on) where it could have resulted in INTs.

From what I saw (and this include Leinart and Schaub), going long is not what the WCO is designed to achieve.

Even so, I don't think that Yates (or Leinart) is lacking on this end.
For Leinart, the sample size is too small, so I won't bother to discuss it.
I just want to mention that (when I include the Pre-season); where the QB is going with the ball also depends on the play call and whether the coverage decides to keep the ball in front of the defenders by playing deep safety(ies).

I was checking around (I think it was week 15 or so) and I found a website that tracks deep throws by QBs.
They track all throws longer than 15 yards as deep passes (which corresponds to the nfl.com website) and I found some interesting numbers.

They have it updated it for the year when I just checked a few minutes ago.
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=QB

Here are some interesting numbers regarding the percentage of "deep" pass attempts by some QBs:

Brady 18.1%
Brees 17.6
Schaub 21.6
Yates 21.7

thunderkyss
01-20-2012, 12:30 AM
I don't see this at all. Yates has a stronger arm that Schaub and he can and has fit the ball into tighter windows than Schaub.



In the regular season it was apparent, however once the play offs started, he was definitely putting more air under the ball than it needed on the deeper routes, maybe that's how they practiced it, to let the receivers run up under it, I dont know.

That pass to Walter on the sideline, I know I've seen him throw farther, he underthrew it allowing Reed to sneak in & intercept it.

Had he thrown it deep, over KDubs head at least he would have been able to fight Reed for it. Luckily Reed didn't have his stick'um at the time.

ObsiWan
01-20-2012, 03:14 AM
Since Yates got wins in his first few games people seemed to have had high expectations or thought he was better than he really was. Fact is TJ didnt lead the offense in a way in which we would score like we normally do. TJ also had many almost, should have or called back ints that seem to go unnoticed imo. Balt could have easily had 5-6 picks instead of 3, in the Cinn game there were 1-2 that should have been picked, Atlanta his pick 6 was called back because of a play on the other side of the field totally unrelated to his int. Fact is he is a rookie and he is no Matt Schaub. Schaub's 2011 ppg average wins us 2 out of our last 3 games and would have put us 2-0 in the playoffs

Good observations. Folks forget those picks that should have been because the defense dropped them or that were called back due to penalties. And even with his much younger legs and better mobility he still managed to nearly match the number of sacks in 5-1/2 games (15) that Schaub had in 10 (16). Now unless the O-line mysteriously got worse, that's another sign Yates needs seasoning.

The Ravens would have never sat back in coverage on Schaub the way they did with Yates. They knew the kid would be fooled by their coverages and that he couldn't disguise where he really intended to go with the ball as a vet like Schaub could. So they just sat back, read his eyes, and jumped routes repeatedly.

The kid has some potential but it's still just potential at this point.

What happened to him? Nothing that shouldn't have happened to a rook going against a veteran defense. He was outfoxed.

TheMatrix31
01-20-2012, 05:19 AM
How about playcalling? Why call a deep bomb to Andre with over a minute and two timeouts left?

But yeah, no other weapons + rookie inexperience falling into a comfort zone with one guy = Ed Reed.

2012Champs
01-20-2012, 07:57 AM
How about playcalling? Why call a deep bomb to Andre with over a minute and two timeouts left?

But yeah, no other weapons + rookie inexperience falling into a comfort zone with one guy = Ed Reed.



Yates had other options other than Dre. I think what happend is that Yates went check down happy in the last few games of the year. Every bootleg to the right that he ran 4-8 times a game he ended up throwing to whatever receiver was rollout out that way with him 1-3 yards away. Yates never looked downfield even though people were open at times. Then in the Ravens game he decided before the game that he and Dre were going to have a big day. You cant talk about not having other weapons because that just silly. Schaub's ppg didnt fall off the face of the earth when dre went out and Im sure Matt wasnt catching any passes.

2012Champs
01-20-2012, 08:00 AM
Good observations. Folks forget those picks that should have been because the defense dropped them or that were called back due to penalties. And even with his much younger legs and better mobility he still managed to nearly match the number of sacks in 5-1/2 games (15) that Schaub had in 10 (16). Now unless the O-line mysteriously got worse, that's another sign Yates needs seasoning.

The Ravens would have never sat back in coverage on Schaub the way they did with Yates. They knew the kid would be fooled by their coverages and that he couldn't disguise where he really intended to go with the ball as a vet like Schaub could. So they just sat back, read his eyes, and jumped routes repeatedly.

The kid has some potential but it's still just potential at this point.

What happened to him? Nothing that shouldn't have happened to a rook going against a veteran defense. He was outfoxed.



You are right about his mobility. Everyone was slobbering on his ability to scramble and his pocket awareness after he made a couple good runs and won a couple games. Then what happend? We did face some challanges on the o line late however the kid stopped running at all and was taking on sacks left and right.

Double Barrel
01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
How about playcalling? Why call a deep bomb to Andre with over a minute and two timeouts left?

But yeah, no other weapons + rookie inexperience falling into a comfort zone with one guy = Ed Reed.

That was a curiosity of mine, as well, because it looked like all receivers were on go routes. It seemed like an all or nothing approach instead of just trying to march down the field on short possession passes and working a two minute drill. Yates is capable of running an offense quickly. He did it against the Bengals to win the game and off the bench against the Jaguars when Leinart went down.

I wish we could see video of the "all 22", where we could study coverage and routes, because the tv is very limiting when trying to really analyze and break down plays.