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gafftop
01-15-2012, 04:12 PM
Foster played hard all year and said nothing.
I know you may not be contractually obligated to pay him a lot this year but I think you do something above what you have to for him NOW.

NastyNate
01-15-2012, 04:17 PM
yup, sign him now for 5 years. If you don't, you're crazy. Foster is THE best in the business. No hb has the full skillset that he does.

TimeKiller
01-15-2012, 04:18 PM
Yup. Pay him Rick.

You would think there would be a smilie or something that said "Pay Me Rick" or something.

MEGA SWATT
01-15-2012, 04:18 PM
Agreed. Pay the man.:bat:

qman_tx
01-15-2012, 04:20 PM
Pay him now!

gtexan02
01-15-2012, 04:20 PM
We weren't obligated to pay AJ but we did bc he earned it. Foster has earned it. Pay him

ATXtexanfan
01-15-2012, 04:20 PM
not to be an ass but is it the system or him? when you say pay him how much? i like foster but what is the price?

iLoveTexans
01-15-2012, 04:21 PM
If we offer him big bucks do you guys think he would stay? I know he loves Houston alot but you never know...

Ryan
01-15-2012, 04:24 PM
not to be an ass but is it the system or him? when you say pay him how much? i like foster but what is the price?


The system can make most backs productive yes, but not Foster productive. This dude is on another planet.

Hervoyel
01-15-2012, 04:25 PM
Wrap him up for the long haul. It's time to lock him in for 5 years. The man is young, talented, and a good locker room guy. You pay those guys when you are lucky enough to get them.

NastyNate
01-15-2012, 04:28 PM
not to be an ass but is it the system or him?

http://www.rossdunn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/you-can-t-be-serious-joker.jpg

NastyNate
01-15-2012, 04:29 PM
Wrap him up for the long haul. It's time to lock him in for 5 years. The man is young, talented, and a good locker room guy. You pay those guys when you are lucky enough to get them.

I agree completely. 5 years is about the perfect length of time.

fiasco west
01-15-2012, 04:30 PM
not to be an ass but is it the system or him? when you say pay him how much? i like foster but what is the price?

Did you see that one handed twirling catch on 3rd down? Foster is the real deal, even if it is the system he excels in it.

We gotta pay guys how much they are worth to this team. He's worth a lot to this team.

I think paying him now will set a good example for the players too that sometimes the team can be loyal to a player.

Kimmy
01-15-2012, 04:30 PM
I wanted to cry seeing the devastation he was feeling. He wanted this for the TEAM so badly, you could see it.

Allstar
01-15-2012, 04:35 PM
Foster in a month or so:

http://hiphopwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/make-it-rain.jpg

Pantherstang84
01-15-2012, 04:41 PM
I wanted to cry seeing the devastation he was feeling. He wanted this for the TEAM so badly, you could see it.

Yep. You could see it in his eyes. Dude was hurting inside. Good. Got to take that pain and channel it, funnel it, and shape it. Pay the man. Now! Not next week. Not after breakfast. Now.

amazing80
01-15-2012, 04:47 PM
Pay him Mario Williams type money :barman:

Ruinondd
01-15-2012, 05:02 PM
Pay him. Every time I think I know what he can do he pulls out something crazy. That one handed catch today was a thing of beauty. Or that shoelace width from out of bounds dance for 20 yrds.
This guy is something special, and he's a perfect fit for our offense.

TexanBacker93
01-15-2012, 05:47 PM
If we offer him big bucks do you guys think he would stay? I know he loves Houston alot but you never know...

I think he'd stay. RBs that leave this system don't have the same success elsewhere. Plus, the best scenario for a great RB is to play behind a great O-Line and with a dominating defense on the other side. If he stays healthy for the next 5 years he could be at 10k by the time he's 30. You gotta keep him.

Kimmy
01-15-2012, 05:50 PM
If we offer him big bucks do you guys think he would stay? I know he loves Houston alot but you never know...

He is a restricted FA, if I understand correctly, he can only resign with the Texans. A team can put a "tender" on him, or is it the other way around? :thinking:

EDIT
From Wiki
In the National Football League, a restricted free agent (RFA) is one with three accrued seasons of service, who has received a "qualifying" offer (a salary level predetermined by the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the league and its players) from his current club. He can negotiate with any club through a certain date. If the restricted free agent accepts an offer sheet from a new club, his old club has "right of first refusal," a seven-day period in which it may match the offer and retain him, or choose not to match the offer, in which case it may receive one or more draft picks for the upcoming draft from the player's new club. If an offer sheet is not executed, the player's rights revert to his old club the day after negotiations must end.

Although I don't think it will get this far. We sign him, he stays

HJam72
01-15-2012, 05:56 PM
Well, he says himself that it's the O-line; but, then again, he's one of those poetic, full-of-crap, nice people :), so ya gotta pay him Rick!!!


It's the O-line that makes da holes and stretches out dee D-Line, but it's Foster that makes the first guy miss every time, whether it's 10 yards down za field or in da backs-field. They jus' miss. Whoops...


Ya gotta pays tha Fosta, Ricks.

Luv_ya_blue
01-15-2012, 05:57 PM
http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/nucleus/media/28/20070418-Animated_man_swimming_money_hg_clr.gif

utahmark
01-15-2012, 05:59 PM
Pay him Mario Williams type money :barman:

Never pay a running back defensive end/outside linebacker money. You were joking right?

Second Honeymoon
01-15-2012, 06:04 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/630bb73c-6861-3e42.jpg

Pay Arian his damn money. They have already got him on the cheap for 2 yrs. Franchise Mario making next year a contract year for him.

And if they need to find money to pay Foster, why not release that pile of dog crap named Jacoby Jones. #soft

Brisco_County
01-15-2012, 06:23 PM
Someone photoshop Chris Farley from the Hurlihy Boy SNL skit yelling next to Arian, "Just pay the boy, Rick!"

RunTexans
01-17-2012, 10:17 AM
I dont care if he's a Restricted Free Agent, dont Low Ball him Rick/Bob, Pay him!! if nothing else, he's earned it!! hands down....

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 11:04 AM
Arian gets RFA tender of a 1st and 3rd for 3.3 million. Book it. Arian's payday will come in 2013.

silvrhand
01-17-2012, 11:05 AM
This won't be popular but.. he's earned his money, but in reality we can't afford to be the farm on him. We have a lot of people that make up the team, spending upwards of 5-10% on a single player just cause other teams are stupid to pay that kind of money is not good business IMHO.

- we have depth at RB with Tate and Ward.
- we have to lock in Chris Myers as well..
- the team is going to have to stick together and if people are out to make the most money they can I think they'll be shown the door.

The ZBAS has a history of making RB's big money only to faulter out on other teams, or lost to injury.

Year Running Back Yards
1996 Davis 1538
1997 Davis 1750
1998 Davis 2008
1999 Gary 1159
2000 Anderson 1487
2002 Portis 1508
2003 Portis 1591
2004 Droughns 1240

- Davis blew out both his knees retired.
- Andreson blew out both his groins.. retired basically after that.
- Portis two great years, then only one after that with redskins, retired..
- Droughns.. went to cleveland.. 1 year done..

These are the other guys we must at least think about resigning..

RB Arian Foster RFA Houston Texans Free Agent
RB Derrick Ward UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
TE Joel Dreessen UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
PK Neil Rackers UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
C Chris Myers UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
LB Mario Williams UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
CB Jason Allen UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
SS Dominique Barber UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
SS Quintin Demps UFA Houston Texans Free Agent

DX-TEX
01-17-2012, 11:10 AM
- Andreson blew out both his groins.. retired basically after that.
-

Why do I wince so bad when I read that?

gtexan02
01-17-2012, 11:14 AM
Arian gets RFA tender of a 1st and 3rd for 3.3 million. Book it. Arian's payday will come in 2013.

AJ's contract had years left on it but we went ahead and renewed him because of his work ethic and his importance to the team. We could easily have kept him on at the contract that he had, but he had outplayed it and deserved a new one.

If Arian doesn't get treated similarly then the FO isn't being consistent. He has outplayed his deal and he has outplayed 3.3 million 1 year

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 11:15 AM
Mike Brisiel is also a free agent this year. I expect him to be re-signed on the cheap, unless Denver or Washington try to outbid us for him.

silvrhand
01-17-2012, 11:15 AM
Arian gets RFA tender of a 1st and 3rd for 3.3 million. Book it. Arian's payday will come in 2013.

3.5 - 5 million a year we could do.. If people are expecting him to get paid something like CJ/Peterson got then don't hold you breath. Look at both teams now with their RB's after they were paid..

Injured/Sucking..

Blake
01-17-2012, 11:17 AM
not to be an ass but is it the system or him? when you say pay him how much? i like foster but what is the price?

It is him. Also, the oline is one of the best units in the game today. But make no mistake, it is Arian Foster. He is a restricted FA so we will tender him with a 1st and 3rd. Then the market will dictate his value. We have the right to match any deal that he accepts from a different team. If we dont, we get their 1st and 3rd.

Just hope a team doesnt use a poison pill tactic against us.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 11:18 AM
AJ's contract had years left on it but we went ahead and renewed him because of his work ethic and his importance to the team. We could easily have kept him on at the contract that he had, but he had outplayed it and deserved a new one.

If Arian doesn't get treated similarly then the FO isn't being consistent. He has outplayed his deal and he has outplayed 3.3 million 1 year

But it's the smart business decision. Rick Smith isn't stupid, he knows the short lifespan of RBs, and Foster is no future hall of fame-r like AJ. They aren't comparable. AJ spent 8 years on this team before getting re-upped for a ton of money, Arian has been her all of 2.5 years. Unless he forces their hand, I don't think Arian gets a big deal until next year. 3.3 million isn't chump change after making 400-600k the last couple seasons.

Blake
01-17-2012, 11:24 AM
But it's the smart business decision. Rick Smith isn't stupid, he knows the short lifespan of RBs, and Foster is no future hall of fame-r like AJ. They aren't comparable. AJ spent 8 years on this team before getting re-upped for a ton of money, Arian has been her all of 2.5 years. Unless he forces their hand, I don't think Arian gets a big deal until next year. 3.3 million isn't chump change after making 400-600k the last couple seasons.

Ummm AJ has been getting pay days basically every 3. Got a 6 year deal in 2003, another 6 year deal in 2007, and extension in 2010.

Also, some might disagree with you that Foster is not capable of making the HOF.

Arian will get paid this offseason. We will have to either sign him to a multi-year deal, or match a multi-year deal another team offers him. 2012 is his payday year.

pirbroke
01-17-2012, 11:26 AM
But it's the smart business decision. Rick Smith isn't stupid, he knows the short lifespan of RBs, and Foster is no future hall of fame-r like AJ. They aren't comparable. AJ spent 8 years on this team before getting re-upped for a ton of money, Arian has been her all of 2.5 years. Unless he forces their hand, I don't think Arian gets a big deal until next year. 3.3 million isn't chump change after making 400-600k the last couple seasons.

thank you, that is what worries me the most. This may be the best path to go.

chenjy9
01-17-2012, 12:14 PM
What I would personally like to see is a 4 year contract that pays 3-4 million a year with incentives/rewards to bump up his pay to the highest paid RB depending on his performance. For instance, if he gets X amount games where he rushes 100 yard and Y amount for rushing over 1K yards for the year. Then you can also have opportunities for playoff bonuses that end up paying him even more. Foster may want more upfront guarantee however, given the short lifespan of RB's which is also understandable.

For those who are saying that we could let go of Foster and ride Tate and Ward, but honestly I do not agree with that. Foster, unlike Tate, is a complete back. That means he will always be there as a big time playmaker available for a check down and the opportunity to change that desperation check down to 10-20 yards. That would be such a huge yet underrated weapon for any QB at the center to have.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 01:02 PM
Ummm AJ has been getting pay days basically every 3. Got a 6 year deal in 2003, another 6 year deal in 2007, and extension in 2010.

Also, some might disagree with you that Foster is not capable of making the HOF.

Arian will get paid this offseason. We will have to either sign him to a multi-year deal, or match a multi-year deal another team offers him. 2012 is his payday year.

AJ's deal in 2007 was so bad that they had to come back and renegotiate it in 2010. His brother or cousin or someone related was his 'agent' and negotiated a poor deal and Rick Smith took advantage. AJ got rid of that guy and got Mario's agent, then got his new deal after a 1500 yard season.

Arian's had two great seasons now, but there's no reason to spend 9 dollars on him if you can keep him working for $3.30-ish. If he's a future hall of fame-r then it won't matter whether or not you lock him down in 2012 or 2013, but you mitigate your risk by waiting one more season.

Big Lou
01-17-2012, 02:00 PM
I wanted to cry seeing the devastation he was feeling. He wanted this for the TEAM so badly, you could see it.

Yeh, when he was on the side line near the end zone away from everyone, I was worried about what was going through his mind.

RunTexans
01-17-2012, 02:13 PM
someone will pay him if they try to low ball him...I think someone will push the cost on him...I have a feeling with the appeal he has, NY Jets might try to grab him...especially to help out that organization now...but either way, paying him 3.3 wont work...it may be the first offer, but some team will laugh at that, gladly trade away their 1st and 3rd for a decent 20 mil guaranteed...it'll suck for Houston if that happens...

gary
01-17-2012, 02:18 PM
The hold out from Johnson is the reason he was not as good this year. I think he'll do much better this year.

Texan_Bill
01-17-2012, 02:21 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/630bb73c-6861-3e42.jpg

Pay Arian his damn money. They have already got him on the cheap for 2 yrs. Franchise Mario making next year a contract year for him.

And if they need to find money to pay Foster, why not release that pile of dog crap named Jacoby Jones. #soft

Hash-tagging doesn't work on message boards! :lol: #RememberWhereYouAre

silvrhand
01-17-2012, 02:22 PM
someone will pay him if they try to low ball him...I think someone will push the cost on him...I have a feeling with the appeal he has, NY Jets might try to grab him...especially to help out that organization now...but either way, paying him 3.3 wont work...it may be the first offer, but some team will laugh at that, gladly trade away their 1st and 3rd for a decent 20 mil guaranteed...it'll suck for Houston if that happens...

Ben Tate: He's our answer, you can't ignore his 5.4 yard per carry average..

2011 Houston Texans 15 2 175 942 5.4 56

ChampionTexan
01-17-2012, 02:25 PM
someone will pay him if they try to low ball him...I think someone will push the cost on him...I have a feeling with the appeal he has, NY Jets might try to grab him...especially to help out that organization now...but either way, paying him 3.3 wont work...it may be the first offer, but some team will laugh at that, gladly trade away their 1st and 3rd for a decent 20 mil guaranteed...it'll suck for Houston if that happens...

They have the right to match the offer or take the draft picks - their choice.

Playoffs
01-17-2012, 02:30 PM
http://files.myopera.com/StephenIsMyName/files/Charity/Show%20Me%20The%20Money.jpg
http://mareinet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/show-me-the-money-300x162.jpg

ChampionTexan
01-17-2012, 02:37 PM
Arian gets RFA tender of a 1st and 3rd for 3.3 million. Book it. Arian's payday will come in 2013.

I think the recent CBA got rid of the 1st and 3rd option. If you look at Section 2(b) (page 36) a first round pick is as high as it goes.

Say Watt
01-17-2012, 02:39 PM
Ben Tate with his horrible hands and inability to stay healthy is the answer?!?

Oh geez....

chenjy9
01-17-2012, 03:08 PM
Ben Tate: He's our answer, you can't ignore his 5.4 yard per carry average..

2011 Houston Texans 15 2 175 942 5.4 56

Let me ask you this? How many yards per reception does Tate have? How many fumbles per carries does Tate have? With Arian as our runner, it goes far beyond yards per carry. Arian is also a legitimate receiver off a check down and dangerous playmaker when that pass is made. Tate will never be able to do that with his hands. While Arian fumbled a bit more after we leaned heavily on him and were wearing him down, Tate fumbles the ball with far more frequency when you factor in how many carries he has. Ben is a good back, but he is no Arian Foster. I would never give up Arian for Ben.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2012, 03:14 PM
I think the recent CBA got rid of the 1st and 3rd option. If you look at Section 2(b) (page 36) a first round pick is as high as it goes.

Ah, they did change it, thanks!

(4) Right of First Refusal and One First Round Draft Selection: one year
Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least (a) $2,61 1 ,000, or (b) 1 10% of the
player's prior year's Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b)
applies, all other terms of the player's prior year contract are carried forward unchanged.
(ii) Beginning in the 2012 League Year, the dollar amounts specified in Subsection
(i) above shall increase annually by the percentage increase (if any) in the Salary
36
Cap over the prior League Year, subject to a minimum increase of 5% and a maXllrlUm
increase of 1 0%

Looks like Arian can be given a 2.611 million offer tendered with a 1st round pick. A single 1st round pick may not be enough to secure him. The Bengals would likely be willing to sign him to a deal and give up their 21st pick. May be forced to lock him up long term afterall...

Blake
01-17-2012, 03:14 PM
Ben Tate with his horrible hands and inability to stay healthy is the answer?!?

Oh geez....

Agreed. Ben Tate is apart of the solution. But definitely not the answer. Last time I checked, you want to retain great players who are great people.

ChampionTexan
01-17-2012, 03:24 PM
Ah, they did change it, thanks!



Looks like Arian can be given a 2.611 million offer tendered with a 1st round pick. A single 1st round pick may not be enough to secure him. The Bengals would likely be willing to sign him to a deal and give up their 21st pick. May be forced to lock him up long term afterall...

But it may allow the Texans to avoid the brain damage associated with negotiating the terms of that long term deal.

silvrhand
01-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Let me ask you this? How many yards per reception does Tate have? How many fumbles per carries does Tate have? With Arian as our runner, it goes far beyond yards per carry. Arian is also a legitimate receiver off a check down and dangerous playmaker when that pass is made. Tate will never be able to do that with his hands. While Arian fumbled a bit more after we leaned heavily on him and were wearing him down, Tate fumbles the ball with far more frequency when you factor in how many carries he has. Ben is a good back, but he is no Arian Foster. I would never give up Arian for Ben.

I'm not making a case that Ben Tate is as good as Arian, I'm making a case that if Arian decided that he wants to go make 10 million a year elsewhere that Ben Tate is a viable running back for us next year with Ward backing him up.

I just don't see paying Foster 8-10M a year we can't afford to pay everyone that or else we wouldn't have a team.

ATXtexanfan
01-17-2012, 04:30 PM
hard to fill a roster when paying everyone top dollar. brisiel and myers need some cash also. we seen brisiel miss a few games, what if he and myers leave cause we cant afford them. is the line more important than the rb? arian is great but the guys infront of him play well together. i would put mario behind these three guys but myers and brisiel before arian. the offseason is so much fun

RunTexans
01-17-2012, 04:50 PM
hard to fill a roster when paying everyone top dollar. brisiel and myers need some cash also. we seen brisiel miss a few games, what if he and myers leave cause we cant afford them. is the line more important than the rb? arian is great but the guys infront of him play well together. i would put mario behind these three guys but myers and brisiel before arian. the offseason is so much fun

Are you kidding me? Look no disrespect whatsoever to the Line, they have done a hell of a job, but this is the same line (mostly) that blocked for Slaton when the Texans were the worst in the league...Again, nothing against the line they are excellent, but with this scheme, just as much as you can call Arian a system player, the line is just the same...dont get me wrong, the replacement of any of the line and even Arian will be a drop off, but your playmaker isnt on the line, its the guy with the ball in his hands...I honestly feel if NEEDED, you could fill a line spot within the draft and be ok, I dont think that there are many Arian Fosters out there...The ZBS (for all the hype about the system) has only produced 2 great backs, Terell Davis and Arian, thats not the system, thats the back!

Again, nothing against the Line or the system, but Arian is a marquee player, check his stats on some of the things he's accomplished, they once said it was the Full Back that made Arian, then it was the system, now its the line and soon it'll be something else, at the end of the day, this kid is a gamechanger, a baller, he has it, whatever it is, he's got it...nothing can replace Arian, not a better line, not a back, he is exactly what he is!

chenjy9
01-17-2012, 05:01 PM
I'm not making a case that Ben Tate is as good as Arian, I'm making a case that if Arian decided that he wants to go make 10 million a year elsewhere that Ben Tate is a viable running back for us next year with Ward backing him up.

I just don't see paying Foster 8-10M a year we can't afford to pay everyone that or else we wouldn't have a team.

Being simply viable at RB means we are taking a huge step back, which is compounded by the fact that the running game defines our offense. I honestly don't see McNair or Smith letting Foster go and will sign him for a high dollar contract. I expect to see a lot of contract restructuring with our remaining players to try to make it all work. This would be a long shot on any other team, but fortunately for us, this team seems very tightly knit and willing to make sacrifices for the team.

On a more depressing speculative note, I honestly believe it will come down to Foster or Mario for the FO if both are demanding top dollar. If Reed has not done so well, I would have been more inclined to believe Foster would be let go. However, considering the proven effectiveness of a D even without Mario, that only makes signing Foster over Mario much stronger.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 05:20 PM
I just don't see paying Foster 8-10M a year we can't afford to pay everyone that or else we wouldn't have a team.

Not everyone else is worth that kind of money.

Foster will get paid.

I doubt McNair wants to make him he highest paid running back in the league, but I'm sure he'll be top 5..... maybe even top 3.

I don't believe Foster wants to be the highest paid running back in the league.... top 3-5 is more likely what he is thinking.

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 05:27 PM
hard to fill a roster when paying everyone top dollar. brisiel and myers need some cash also. we seen brisiel miss a few games, what if he and myers leave cause we cant afford them. is the line more important than the rb? arian is great but the guys infront of him play well together. i would put mario behind these three guys but myers and brisiel before arian. the offseason is so much fun

Myers is the only guy I'd be interested in bending a little bit to keep. Brisiel... love the guy, but if he thinks he can go elsewhere & be a part of what he's got going on here, he's fooling himself.

He's a starter here, he'll have to fight for that spot elsewhere.

80tothezone
01-17-2012, 06:18 PM
not to be an ass but is it the system or him? when you say pay him how much? i like foster but what is the price?

it is him... the man has agility vision and big play potential you can't "system" that.

80tothezone
01-17-2012, 06:21 PM
Ben Tate: He's our answer, you can't ignore his 5.4 yard per carry average..

2011 Houston Texans 15 2 175 942 5.4 56

Ben Tate is a good back but he is not foster pay the man that got you to the playoffs. Personally I think you pay foster and trade Tate for picks.

Texan_Bill
01-17-2012, 06:44 PM
not to be an ass but is it the system or him? when you say pay him how much? i like foster but what is the price?

BOTH! The system works with the right fit and he's the right fit.

Now, that said, it wasn't the system that made that spectacular catch the other day. It wasn't the system that embarrassed Michael Griffin in Tennessee on that cut-back. It's not the system that produces his uncanny speed for a bigger guy, etc. etc...

Make him one of the top three paid running backs, excluding Chris Johnson ridiculous deal.

RunTexans
01-17-2012, 07:37 PM
theres always the option of factoring in a big signing bonus, which doesnt count against the cap space at all...only issue is that money is guaranteed, and im not so sure Bob wants to fork that over for as much of a business as it is...

thunderkyss
01-17-2012, 07:40 PM
theres always the option of factoring in a big signing bonus, which doesnt count against the cap space at all...only issue is that money is guaranteed, and im not so sure Bob wants to fork that over for as much of a business as it is...

Provide us a link that backs up your assertion that the signing bonus doesn't count towards the cap.

Texan_Bill
01-17-2012, 08:05 PM
BOTH! The system works with the right fit and he's the right fit.

Now, that said, it wasn't the system that made that spectacular catch the other day. It wasn't the system that embarrassed Michael Griffin in Tennessee on that cut-back. It's not the system that produces his uncanny speed for a bigger guy, etc. etc...

Make him one of the top three paid running backs, excluding Chris Johnson ridiculous deal.

Thanks mods for merging the two threads!!!

Noobs!!! :rolleyes: :mariopalm:



;)

Fico
01-17-2012, 10:50 PM
Foster is going to get paid and he deserves it. In the confines of our system he is the best back in the NFL. The guy knows his skill set fits perfectly with the zone blocking scheme and he knows we had another back go for 1000 this year. He also knows he had the most 100 yard rushing games this year out of any back, 7, added another 600+ through the air, leading our team in receiving for 3 weeks while Andre was out, all while only playing in 12.5 games. The guy has also become the face of our franchise. He is a colorful person whom is a good interview and genuinely draws natural interests to the Texans. He will get paid with deal roughly in the 5-6 year $38-45 million range.

Ben Tate nor anyone in the league is the player Foster is in our system and he needs to be paid like it. He is the best player on our team right now, today. Period.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2012, 08:51 AM
theres always the option of factoring in a big signing bonus, which doesnt count against the cap space at all...only issue is that money is guaranteed, and im not so sure Bob wants to fork that over for as much of a business as it is...

Provide us a link that backs up your assertion that the signing bonus doesn't count towards the cap.

Umm, yeah, RunTexans is wrong. Very, very wrong.

Could you imagine the NFL if bonuses didn't count against the cap at all? Every marquee player would get huge signing bonuses and minimal salary. It would totally suck and turn into the NBA.

Anyways, signing bonuses are divided among the years on the contract. Optional years included. If a player is cut before the end of the contract, the remainder of the signing bonus will count against the cap for the year the player is cut. Roster, incentive and other bonuses not attained do not count against the cap and won't be paid.

b0ng
01-18-2012, 12:28 PM
Foster will get his. To much good PR with him on the team not to give him a little and he seems like a high character guy, something I'm sure Bob McNair takes notice of every day.

I really hope he doesn't want an Andre Johnson sized contract though that would be no bueno.

thunderkyss
01-18-2012, 09:01 PM
Foster will get his. To much good PR with him on the team not to give him a little and he seems like a high character guy, something I'm sure Bob McNair takes notice of every day.

I really hope he doesn't want an Andre Johnson sized contract though that would be no bueno.

Good point, Bob knows he'll have more pennies to count with Foster wearing a Texans jearsy & less without.

Runner
01-18-2012, 10:13 PM
Ben Tate is a good back but he is not foster pay the man that got you to the playoffs. Personally I think you pay foster and trade Tate for picks.

I think they have got to keep Tate. What's the half-life of an NFL running back? Of a Texans running back?

Pay Foster good money, but be careful with how long he is projected to be near his current level.

JCTexan
01-19-2012, 01:25 AM
I think they have got to keep Tate. What's the half-life of an NFL running back? Of a Texans running back?

Pay Foster good money, but be careful with how long he is projected to be near his current level.

This. They were the best 1-2 punch in the NFL this year. I see no reason to mess that up.

gafftop
02-17-2012, 03:51 PM
Can't believe we are talking about pinching Foster to keep Mario. We lose Mario no huge problem. We lose Foster bad news. Just my opinion

Say Watt
02-17-2012, 03:53 PM
Can't believe we are talking about pinching Foster to keep Mario. We lose Mario no huge problem. We lose Foster bad news. Just my opinion

Who is talking about that?

Most of the conversation I have heard has involved letting Mario go to make sure we sign both Myers and Foster.

badboy
02-17-2012, 03:55 PM
Cut Leinert & Jacoby=$6m and move along.

amazing80
02-17-2012, 03:56 PM
Yup, but we can't sign everyone. If we sign Myers and Foster you can say bye to Mario.

amazing80
02-17-2012, 03:57 PM
Cut Leinert & Jacoby=$6m and move along.

Not that simple, you would still need to replace them. And a quality WR will cost some good money.

chenjy9
02-17-2012, 04:16 PM
Not that simple, you would still need to replace them. And a quality WR will cost some good money.

I honestly don't think we need to look very far to replace someone like Jacoby. I would rather move Casey and OD to WR than to put Jacoby back in as a wide out. I think that both Mario and Foster as well as Myers really like it here and are not guys who look to make top dollar, just a fair deal. Considering all the stories we hear about how these players truly like each other, I think there is a good chance they give us discounts and others re-working their contracts to make it all work.

amazing80
02-17-2012, 04:24 PM
I honestly don't think we need to look very far to replace someone like Jacoby. I would rather move Casey and OD to WR than to put Jacoby back in as a wide out. I think that both Mario and Foster as well as Myers really like it here and are not guys who look to make top dollar, just a fair deal. Considering all the stories we hear about how these players truly like each other, I think there is a good chance they give us discounts and others re-working their contracts to make it all work.

I like my buddy at work but that doesn't mean I am willing to decrease my pay to keep him there. Not everyone is generous about their money.

Moving OD or Casey won't be done, its not what you want but what Gary would do, and that is not his nature. I EXPECT we lose Dreessen this off-season and Casey goes back to being a TE and we keep Vickers as the FB, we play more 2 TE sets but we still need another legit WR.....a rookie is going to cost ROUGHLY 4/7.5 million (Baldwin was drafted last year at pick 26).....so roughly 1.5 this season if structured similar to Baldwins

Plus we need to get a backup qb and Im sure Gary will want more vet. wide outs.....

AND even if you save say a modest 4 million, wont be that much, who do you sign for that money? Myers, Foster or Mario? Doubt any take that little amount

badboy
02-17-2012, 04:52 PM
Not that simple, you would still need to replace them. And a quality WR will cost some good money.I replace each with a draft pick; much cheaper.

badboy
02-17-2012, 04:54 PM
I like my buddy at work but that doesn't mean I am willing to decrease my pay to keep him there. Not everyone is generous about their money.

Moving OD or Casey won't be done, its not what you want but what Gary would do, and that is not his nature. I EXPECT we lose Dreessen this off-season and Casey goes back to being a TE and we keep Vickers as the FB, we play more 2 TE sets but we still need another legit WR.....a rookie is going to cost ROUGHLY 4/7.5 million (Baldwin was drafted last year at pick 26).....so roughly 1.5 this season if structured similar to Baldwins

Plus we need to get a backup qb and Im sure Gary will want more vet. wide outs.....

AND even if you save say a modest 4 million, wont be that much, who do you sign for that money? Myers, Foster or Mario? Doubt any take that little amountAh but you might if all your needs were met and then some with the millions you would make rather than the thousands you now make.

amazing80
02-17-2012, 04:57 PM
Ah but you might if all your needs were met and then some with the millions you would make rather than the thousands you now make.


Yea, but millionaires dont live the life of thousandaires.....they have bills based on the MILLIONS they project to make.....for every guy who saved money im willing to bet there are 2 who live based on money not based on needs.....

amazing80
02-17-2012, 04:59 PM
I replace each with a draft pick; much cheaper.

I think Gary would prefer a more veteran qb IN CASE something like last season happens again, plus a rookie wr is not NEAR as good as a veteran. For every Julion Jones there is at least 4 Carlos Rogers.....gambling on a rookie to save money would be foolish

Bulls on Parade
02-17-2012, 05:07 PM
Yea, but millionaires dont live the life of thousandaires.....they have bills based on the MILLIONS they project to make.....for every guy who saved money im willing to bet there are 2 who live based on money not based on needs.....
Two words: Lamar Lathon

Granted, he never got paid like a superstar back then but he always lived in small apartments. The only thing he went crazy when spending his money was on his cars.

PapaL
02-17-2012, 05:14 PM
I think Gary would prefer a more veteran qb IN CASE something like last season happens again, plus a rookie wr is not NEAR as good as a veteran. For every Julion Jones there is at least 4 Carlos Rogers.....gambling on a rookie to save money would be foolish

5 years in and Jacoby is still making rookie mistakes. What's your point? In this case, a rookie is just as risky as the "veteran".

amazing80
02-17-2012, 05:29 PM
5 years in and Jacoby is still making rookie mistakes. What's your point? In this case, a rookie is just as risky as the "veteran".

the point is you sign someone who is ACTUALLY good, which will cost good money

Bulls on Parade
02-17-2012, 05:34 PM
I just wish the NFL got rid of the salary cap. Just like the game had before 1994. The Houston Texans could spend anything they wanted on any player, and they would likely be the highest-spending team in the AFC. But the game would get crazy. Owners like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder would always have the Cowboys and Redskins near the top of payrolls: Yankees and Red Sox type of thing.

TEXANJAK
02-17-2012, 05:45 PM
I wish they would hurry up and get his deal done. Please do not put the tag on him.

thunderkyss
02-17-2012, 07:32 PM
Yup, but we can't sign everyone. If we sign Myers and Foster you can say bye to Mario.

What do you base this on? What do you expect Mario's cap number to be?
What do you expect Foater & Myers to be?

badboy
02-17-2012, 08:57 PM
I just wish the NFL got rid of the salary cap. Just like the game had before 1994. The Houston Texans could spend anything they wanted on any player, and they would likely be the highest-spending team in the AFC. But the game would get crazy. Owners like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder would always have the Cowboys and Redskins near the top of payrolls: Yankees and Red Sox type of thing.The it would be like baseball and basketball. The NFL has the best deal going and all involved are getting rich. Even in the uncapped year, Texans did not spend excessive money.

Marcus
02-17-2012, 11:59 PM
:gun:I just wish the NFL got rid of the salary cap. Just like the game had before 1994. The Houston Texans could spend anything they wanted on any player, and they would likely be the highest-spending team in the AFC. But the game would get crazy. Owners like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder would always have the Cowboys and Redskins near the top of payrolls: Yankees and Red Sox type of thing.

:gun:

Bulls on Parade
02-18-2012, 12:13 AM
The it would be like baseball and basketball. The NFL has the best deal going and all involved are getting rich. Even in the uncapped year, Texans did not spend excessive money.
It's true but right now they have a ton on talent on both sides of the ball. I'd even argue that the talent level of the Texans is better than any other team in the league. I believe they might have drafted two or three more future pro bowlers in the 2011 draft last year. J.J. Watt especially, this guy has a chance to become an elite all pro and one of the best players in the game at his position. When the time is right, he'll be due a hefty pay raise that is on par with the highest-paid defensive players in the game.

Without a salary cap it would be a lot easier to keep all of our great players, while still having the luxury of adding talent in free agency. For example, we could re-sign Mario, Myers and Foster without any cap concerns and still focus on possibly adding a free agent wide receiver like Reggie Wayne. During the uncapped year there wasn't a whole lot for the Texans to do at that time. We certainly weren't a Super Bowl contender or even playoff team like we are now.

I'll tell you one thing. It's nice to have this problem though. I don't remember the Texans in a position to lose a great player during the Capers and Casserly era. Even though Casserly's last draft might be remembered as his best one.

thunderkyss
02-18-2012, 04:19 AM
BullsonParade, I think you're missing the entire point of the Salary cap.... no **** it would be easier to sign all our players, you're not telling anyone anything new. But the parity in the league is what drives the success of the NFL... unlike baseball & basketball, that's the point Marcus & badboy are trying to get across.

Secondly, let's assume the $18M dollar number is right, concerning Mario's 2011 salary. The Texans can realistically sign him to a contract on par with Peppers' & still negotiate a $10M cap number (realistically, this should be our only concern). Realistically, Foster's cap number should be in the $6M dollar range & Myers should be in the $3M-$5M dollar range.

In other words, Mario's 2011 salary alone provides enough (nearly) to sign our three most important FAs this offseason. With 14 other FA coming off the books in 2012 the situation is not as dire as chicken little is trying to portray.

Thirdly, the salary cap is going to go up in the near future. No need to worry about "finding" money to sign JjWatt, Conor Barwin, etc.... etc....

1bigfan13
02-18-2012, 08:15 AM
I just wish the NFL got rid of the salary cap. Just like the game had before 1994. The Houston Texans could spend anything they wanted on any player, and they would likely be the highest-spending team in the AFC. But the game would get crazy. Owners like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder would always have the Cowboys and Redskins near the top of payrolls: Yankees and Red Sox type of thing.

I tend to agree with you. I don't think getting rid of the salary cap would cause a competitive inbalance.

pre-1994 small market teams were relevant and competitve. Some of the best teams from the 80s were small market teams. Broncos, 49ers, and Bengals just to name a few.

It all comes down to how you manage your team and the coaches you have in place.

You mentioned Jones and Snyder. Sure those two are known to spend a lot of money, but when have they ever got it right? They spend a lot of money because their teams are poorly run. They often screw up the draft so to compensate they usually end up having to overpay for marginal talent.

Trust me. No one should be afraid of Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder spending their way to a championship.

Marcus
02-18-2012, 09:33 AM
I tend to agree with you. I don't think getting rid of the salary cap would cause a competitive inbalance.

pre-1994 small market teams were relevant and competitve. Some of the best teams from the 80s were small market teams. Broncos, 49ers, and Bengals just to name a few.

It all comes down to how you manage your team and the coaches you have in place.

You mentioned Jones and Snyder. Sure those two are known to spend a lot of money, but when have they ever got it right? They spend a lot of money because their teams are poorly run. They often screw up the draft so to compensate they usually end up having to overpay for marginal talent.

Trust me. No one should be afraid of Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder spending their way to a championship.

That's preposterous! I don't know whether that's more naivete than selfishness.

If they did that, (do away with the salary cap) the mere perception alone of competitive imbalance, would make me wash my hands of the NFL. Even if the Texans won the Super Bowl, it would be tainted, because I would know they were one of the "haves" in the sham league of "haves" and "have-nots".

b0ng
02-18-2012, 11:03 AM
The salary cap is pretty much a myth anyway. This is the first year in FOREVER that teams have actually had to make difficult decisions on rosters. Hell the Raiders and the Redskins were always players in free agency year after year, even though they always made HORRIBLE financial decisions (Exhibit A (http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80709c14&template=without-video&confirm=true)).

And after this year the cap is going to go right back up to insanity levels anyway really it's kinda like there is no salary cap.

thunderkyss
02-18-2012, 01:47 PM
The salary cap is pretty much a myth anyway. This is the first year in FOREVER that teams have actually had to make difficult decisions on rosters. Hell the Raiders and the Redskins were always players in free agency year after year, even though they always made HORRIBLE financial decisions (Exhibit A (http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80709c14&template=without-video&confirm=true)).

And after this year the cap is going to go right back up to insanity levels anyway really it's kinda like there is no salary cap.

Which is probably why there will be a minimum spend in 2013. Players are going to start getting paid..... right now, it's only the "stars" that are making money hand over fist...

I would think owners are making a killing if they aren't spending at or near the cap.... unless the previous CBA had that money going to the players union somehow, which I doubt.

badboy
02-18-2012, 10:45 PM
Which is probably why there will be a minimum spend in 2013. Players are going to start getting paid..... right now, it's only the "stars" that are making money hand over fist...

I would think owners are making a killing if they aren't spending at or near the cap.... unless the previous CBA had that money going to the players union somehow, which I doubt.The players should be happy with the contract they got; owners will still get fat but players will really get snouts in the feed trough.

ckhouston
02-19-2012, 09:47 AM
Which is probably why there will be a minimum spend in 2013. Players are going to start getting paid..... right now, it's only the "stars" that are making money hand over fist...

I would think owners are making a killing if they aren't spending at or near the cap.... unless the previous CBA had that money going to the players union somehow, which I doubt.

You have a picture of Jacoby Jones next to your name. No really ... you have a picture of Jacoby Jones next to your name. Just sayin.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 07:29 AM
BullsonParade, I think you're missing the entire point of the Salary cap.... no **** it would be easier to sign all our players, you're not telling anyone anything new. But the parity in the league is what drives the success of the NFL... unlike baseball & basketball, that's the point Marcus & badboy are trying to get across.

Secondly, let's assume the $18M dollar number is right, concerning Mario's 2011 salary. The Texans can realistically sign him to a contract on par with Peppers' & still negotiate a $10M cap number (realistically, this should be our only concern). Realistically, Foster's cap number should be in the $6M dollar range & Myers should be in the $3M-$5M dollar range.

In other words, Mario's 2011 salary alone provides enough (nearly) to sign our three most important FAs this offseason. With 14 other FA coming off the books in 2012 the situation is not as dire as chicken little is trying to portray.

Thirdly, the salary cap is going to go up in the near future. No need to worry about "finding" money to sign JjWatt, Conor Barwin, etc.... etc....

Man, you just don't get it. ITS ABOUT OUR FUTURE, not being able to sign the guy or not....its about signing guys other than him in the next 2 years.

Ryans, AJ, Antonio Smith, Eric Winston, Cushing and JJo have escalating contracts, they will get paid more the deeper into their contracts we get.

Not to mention the simple escalators but ones that will add up like Brandon Harris, JJ Watt, Brown etc....the point is its not nearly as simple as you make it out to be

And for every guy that is cut or we don't resign we need to replace so its not like we have all that money to pay ONE GUY once we drop 10 guys from our books. You need to replace them with equally or better talent and it costs $$$ to do that....

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 08:56 AM
Thirdly, the salary cap is going to go up in the near future. No need to worry about "finding" money to sign JjWatt, Conor Barwin, etc.... etc....
Man, you just don't get it. ITS ABOUT OUR FUTURE, not being able to sign the guy or not....its about signing guys other than him in the next 2 years.

Ryans, AJ, Antonio Smith, Eric Winston, Cushing and JJo have escalating contracts, they will get paid more the deeper into their contracts we get.

Not to mention the simple escalators but ones that will add up like Brandon Harris, JJ Watt, Brown etc....the point is its not nearly as simple as you make it out to be

And for every guy that is cut or we don't resign we need to replace so its not like we have all that money to pay ONE GUY once we drop 10 guys from our books. You need to replace them with equally or better talent and it costs $$$ to do that....

In the post you quoted I demonstrated how this is not an either or proposition, using just Mario's 2011 cap hit. We've still got other options to free up money for the 2012 season.

2013 is another story all together. The salary cap will go up.

If the cap were to stay at $120M, or even go down, your concerns would be valid.

I do admit, I do not know how the escalating contracts of our current players will affect the cap for the 2012 season. No one does. I have yet to see a reliable source provide that information.

Instead of saying we can't do it because of that, I choose to play with the money we know we'll save by signing Mario to a long term deal. Like I said, we can sign Mario, Myers, & Foster for $18M in 2012.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 09:18 AM
Here's the best (http://torotimes.com/2012/02/12/houston-texans-2012-cap-room-situation-and-possible-offseason-approaches-part-1/) I can come up with.

It shows us having $25M of cap room. That, supposedly accounts for all current contracts. I'm proposing we sign Mario, Myers, & Foster with $18M, leaving us $7M to play with.

We currently have $39.3M tied up in 5 players. $25.7 of it in just 3 players. Andre, Schaub, & Antonio

They may not want to mess with Schaub, since he is near contract end. Substitute Demeco's $7.1M for Schaub's $8.3M & that's $24.5M that can be restructured to free up money to sign anyone you want outside of Mario, Myers, & Foster (because we already locked them up with the $18M). Antonio Smith & Demeco Ryans should be no brainers for renegotiations.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 09:45 AM
Here's the best (http://torotimes.com/2012/02/12/houston-texans-2012-cap-room-situation-and-possible-offseason-approaches-part-1/) I can come up with.

It shows us having $25M of cap room. That, supposedly accounts for all current contracts. I'm proposing we sign Mario, Myers, & Foster with $18M, leaving us $7M to play with.

We currently have $39.3M tied up in 5 players. $25.7 of it in just 3 players. Andre, Schaub, & Antonio

They may not want to mess with Schaub, since he is near contract end. Substitute Demeco's $7.1M for Schaub's $8.3M & that's $24.5M that can be restructured to free up money to sign anyone you want outside of Mario, Myers, & Foster (because we already locked them up with the $18M). Antonio Smith & Demeco Ryans should be no brainers for renegotiations.

Thats all fine and dandy for now, but how you gonna sign Schaub, Brown, Cushing and Watt long term? None of the contracts you are willing to sign will come off the books PRIOR to these guys hitting free agency, and you assuming Smith and Ryans will re-do their deals is far fetched, Ryans paid for dirt cheap before getting his large deal, doubt he gives it up and Smith left AZ for more money, why would he give some up? And that was AFTER they went to the super bowl and they were considered contenders.....


We are finally out of cap hell and making moves like you suggest would put us right back in it.....sometimes youre going to lose GREAT players, its not about Mario, its about the Texans and were fine without him on the field and were MUCH better cap wise without him

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 10:02 AM
Thats all fine and dandy for now, but how you gonna sign Schaub, Brown, Cushing and Watt long term? None of the contracts you are willing to sign will come off the books PRIOR to these guys hitting free agency, and you assuming Smith and Ryans will re-do their deals is far fetched, Ryans paid for dirt cheap before getting his large deal, doubt he gives it up and Smith left AZ for more money, why would he give some up? And that was AFTER they went to the super bowl and they were considered contenders.....


We are finally out of cap hell and making moves like you suggest would put us right back in it.....sometimes youre going to lose GREAT players, its not about Mario, its about the Texans and were fine without him on the field and were MUCH better cap wise without him

The cap will go up in 2013, I'm going to sign Watt, Cushing, & Brown with that money.

Antonio Smith stuck it to us if you ask me. Never once has he come close to a double digit sack year. With the number of snaps he's played (relatively healthy) that should not be the case. If Antonio thinks he's going to test FA again & get a sweet deal like he got from us, he's mistaken. I'm not asking him to take less money, only take it in the form of a signing bonus so we can drop his cap number & make it less likely that we'll cut him. Demeco, same thing however I'd be willing to extend Demeco's contract to make sure he finishes his career as a Houston Texans.

Cap hell, is paying Gary Walker for something he can not do. Or Amobi Okoye or Dan Orlovsky or Steve Slaton or David Anderson... those 4 players are going to cost us $8M according to that article I posted.

I understand you have to let good players go sometimes. I do not agree that you have to let a player like Mario go because of market value.

We've got salary cap issues because we pay people like David Anderson & Jacoby Jones over $1M/yr....... Antonio Smith $8M/yr.... Matt Schuab $9M/yr..... Dan Orlovsky $3M/yr.... Sage Rosenfelds $3M/yr... Mario Williams $18M/yr

It's not because we're paying Andre Johnson $9M/yr or Mario Williams $10M/yr

amazing80
02-20-2012, 10:22 AM
The cap will go up in 2013, I'm going to sign Watt, Cushing, & Brown with that money.

Antonio Smith stuck it to us if you ask me. Never once has he come close to a double digit sack year. With the number of snaps he's played (relatively healthy) that should not be the case. If Antonio thinks he's going to test FA again & get a sweet deal like he got from us, he's mistaken. I'm not asking him to take less money, only take it in the form of a signing bonus so we can drop his cap number & make it less likely that we'll cut him. Demeco, same thing however I'd be willing to extend Demeco's contract to make sure he finishes his career as a Houston Texans.

Cap hell, is paying Gary Walker for something he can not do. Or Amobi Okoye or Dan Orlovsky or Steve Slaton or David Anderson... those 4 players are going to cost us $8M according to that article I posted.

I understand you have to let good players go sometimes. I do not agree that you have to let a player like Mario go because of market value.

We've got salary cap issues because we pay people like David Anderson & Jacoby Jones over $1M/yr....... Antonio Smith $8M/yr.... Matt Schuab $9M/yr..... Dan Orlovsky $3M/yr.... Sage Rosenfelds $3M/yr... Mario Williams $18M/yr

It's not because we're paying Andre Johnson $9M/yr or Mario Williams $10M/yr

Youre making a lot of work for me ;)


2. Cap stands at $120.375 million: The salary cap is $120.375 million, but each team has the option of using a $3 million exemption this year on a signed player to free up some room. Next year, teams will have the option of designating three player exemptions at $1.5 million each. These are used to transition into a salary cap that decreased from $128 million in 2009. There is also a mandatory cash minimum payroll for each team at 89 percent of the cap, which translates into $107.1 million per team.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6790759/what-new-nfl-cba-means-football-terms


This means we have a 3 M flex THIS season, but next year will have 4.5 TOTAL extra, you're gonna sign those guys with that little amount?

And I can sit here and argue that Smith is a better player than Mario but it seems that all you care about when talking Mario is POTENTIAL and measurements, not play making skills or the ability to make a stop when it counts....

We're not gonna cut Ryans or Smith and create MAJOR needs because you and a few others want to over pay Mario....WON'T HAPPEN.

You're complaining about paying a top 10 arguably top 5 qb 9 M a year? And saying that JJ isn't worth 1 million is ignorant. You can hate him for what he did and his ability to not do a lot when AJ is out, but seriously 1 million is not that much when talking about 120 M cap for a position as a wide out and a guy who is versatile enough to return kicks. Replacing him is one thing, complaining about a small salary like that is dumb

And again you're paying AJ 9 million now, but in a few seasons it balloons to 13 million, then what will you do? Same with Mario, its not gonna be 10 throughout, itll be 10 now then in 4 years maybe be 14 million....you cannot continue to have BIG contracts escalate and be able to afford the quality filler you need around that talent

Not to mention if Barwin continues to be great he will demand a massive contract and he has proven more than Mario in his short stint here.....Mario, sorry bud, its time to move on

Plus you have a top 5 LT coming off books soon, a top 5 center in FA now, a top 3 RB in FA now, a top ILB in a few years, a top rush olb soon, a stud NT who will want a new deal in 3 seasons.....THIS all plays a role in the ability to sign Mario now, plus you're expecting to draft a guy in the draft who will be expected to be a top wide out, you're gonna need to pay him in 4 years as well....think ahead man

ckhouston
02-20-2012, 10:34 AM
And I can sit here and argue that Smith is a better player than Mario

You're complaining about paying a top 10 arguably top 5 qb 9 M a year?

Mario > Smith

Schaub < at least 12 other QB's, and that number will increase once Luck and RGIII hit the league. He isn't anywhere close to top 5.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 10:38 AM
Mario > Smith

Schaub < at least 12 other QB's, and that number will increase once Luck and RGIII hit the league. He isn't anywhere close to top 5.

Yup the guy who is top 10 in single season yards with one good wr isn't top 10 currently playing....:mcnugget:

amazing80
02-20-2012, 10:40 AM
And I won't argue Smith vs Mario because most will just point to sacks which IMO is foolish.....itd be an uphill battle for me and im not willing to do it

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 11:10 AM
This means we have a 3 M flex THIS season, but next year will have 4.5 TOTAL extra, you're gonna sign those guys with that little amount?

No, because of the new TV contracts that go into affect in 2013, NFL revenues will increase...... the salary cap will increase. I've seen some say it will go up to $130M, I've heard some say as high as $180M, I'm betting it will be somewhere in between.

And I can sit here and argue that Smith is a better player than Mario but it seems that all you care about when talking Mario is POTENTIAL and measurements, not play making skills or the ability to make a stop when it counts....

This is pure hate. Sacks, pressures, hits, tackles.... Mario just eclipse's Antonio Smith. Antonio may beat him in "effort" & a cool Ninja celebration..... but that's about it.

We're not gonna cut Ryans or Smith and create MAJOR needs because you and a few others want to over pay Mario....WON'T HAPPEN.

I'm not suggesting we cut either..... I'm also not suggesting we over pay Mario, I'm 100% against over paying Mario Williams.

You're complaining about paying a top 10 arguably top 5 qb 9 M a year? And saying that JJ isn't worth 1 million is ignorant. You can hate him for what he did and his ability to not do a lot when AJ is out, but seriously 1 million is not that much when talking about 120 M cap for a position as a wide out and a guy who is versatile enough to return kicks. Replacing him is one thing, complaining about a small salary like that is dumb

Ignorant is thinking we paid Jj $1M, he got a $755K salary plus a $1.5M bonus. & I love Jj, check the avatar.

But #3 WRs shouldn't cost us more than the league minimum for a 5 year vet $880K

& I said paying more than $1M for DA & Jj, which is what we did. But you're right, I'm more upset about paying KDub $5M/yr

And again you're paying AJ 9 million now, but in a few seasons it balloons to 13 million, then what will you do? Same with Mario, its not gonna be 10 throughout, itll be 10 now then in 4 years maybe be 14 million....you cannot continue to have BIG contracts escalate and be able to afford the quality filler you need around that talent

I've got no problem paying franchise players their fair market value. I understand their contracts will escalate..... imo when their yrly salary/cap number gets too high, you extend them, work out new deals, or cut them if they are no longer worth that number. That's why I favor signing bonuses. I understand the argument against.

Not to mention if Barwin continues to be great he will demand a massive contract and he has proven more than Mario in his short stint here.....Mario, sorry bud, its time to move on

More hate. I'd like to see how Barwin would have done the last 5 years, without Jj Watt, Brooks Reed, Mario, Manning, Jjo, & Quin.

If we were to offer either Mario or Barwin to any of the bottom 5 pass rushing teams which one do you think they'll want?

Plus you have a top 5 LT coming off books soon, a top 5 center in FA now, a top 3 RB in FA now, a top ILB in a few years, a top rush olb soon, a stud NT who will want a new deal in 3 seasons.....THIS all plays a role in the ability to sign Mario now, plus you're expecting to draft a guy in the draft who will be expected to be a top wide out, you're gonna need to pay him in 4 years as well....think ahead man

You're absolutely 100% right, if the salary cap was going to stay anywhere near $120M. However, it should/will increase substantially after the 2012 season. So while you are correct & the F.O. should be looking long term, 2012 is the only season that poses a potential problem.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 11:28 AM
well I will tell you this, if its gonna increase 60% then you sign Mario and back load the **** out of it

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 11:34 AM
well I will tell you this, if its gonna increase 60% then you sign Mario and back load the **** out of it

Exactly

The Medic01
02-20-2012, 12:10 PM
Isn't this the first year in a while that teams have had to make tough salary cap decisions. And if new TV deals are signed in 2013 the cap will increase a lot and it will be another 5-10 years before teams have to make more tough decisions. Just franchise Foster then when the cap increases sign him a long term deal. Back load Marios contract and some of our other guys and when the cap increases next year when we have a lot of major FA's it won't be hard as this year.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 12:24 PM
And if new TV deals are signed in 2013 the cap will increase a lot....

I was under the impression they are already signed (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/hiestand-tv/story/2011-12-14/nfl-tv-deal/51942686/1). The revenue doesn't kick in until 2013.

amazing80
02-20-2012, 02:40 PM
Here is a a brilliant poster on another site I frequent

He is more articulate than me and puts everything I am saying into a better post.....enjoy



New TV deals kick in for the 2014 season. The 60% figure is where rights fees will be at the conclusion of the new deals which is in 2022. Average increase per season is 6%-7%. It's not like the entire amount will get passed on to the players who get around 48% of all revenue so an annual increase of 3%-4% of the cap is more realistic and that's IF all the other revenue sources escalate at that clip which is questionable as stadium revenues are actually becoming a challenge with more reasons than ever to stay home and watch games, declining naming rights deals, stadium advertising, luxury boxes, etc.

Yes, the cap will take a bit of a jump in 2014, but if you think that alone solves the Mario situation, you are dreaming. There is still a cap on salary escalation at 30%, so you can't just push everything off to 2014. The only real option in resigning Mario is going to be to put almost the entire salary into a signing bonus so it can be spread out over 5 years and at the $50 million he will likely command as a STARTING point, that is still $10 million in prorated bonus per season plus whatever salary we put behind it which will still be several million per season and max escalation. Forgive me if I'm just not understanding why we would want to pin ourselves against whatever cap is out there for the next 5 years for a player who simply didn't win many games for us in his first 6 years here, has been effected by injury 4 of his 6 years, and played in a defense that was one of the 3 best in the league without him last year.

Sure, if money were no object, I'd love to have him here, but in a cap world it is a major object and I think the Texans showed McNair that winning is what will ultimately matter, not jersey sales for a player who's reputation has always far exceeded his on field play. Ultimately, we got it right in letting Atlanta pay a ridiculous sum for a vastly overrated Dunta, and I'm all for letting KC or Tampa try to gain instant attention for swinging big with Mario, while we maintain the approach that had us make a playoff run with impact draft picks and strategic free agent signings like Antonio and Johnathan Joseph.

Sure, having Barwin, Reed, and Mario all rushing the passer on 3rd down along with Antonio and JJ would be scary, but to me it's a bit like the Panthers resigning DeAngelo Williams for $42 million last year when they still had so many holes on defense (that got worse in letting Richard Marshall walk) and had a guy like Jonathan Stewart waiting in the wings. Maybe Stewart and a 2nd/3rd round RB aren't as good as Williams/Stewart, but they would have the freedom this year to go out and get someone like Dwayne Bowe and Finnegan which adds up to more than a RB on a rotation. Fact is, I consider Mario as a pass rushing specialist who should rotate with Reed depending on the situation as Reed is already vastly superior in run support and coverage which could have been badly exposed last year with more tape on Barwin/Williams' limitations. If teams are running for 5-6 yards on first downs or dumping off to RBs in the flats, we don't even get to those 3rd and long situations where Mario is supposed to earn that $50 mil bonus. If I'm matching up against a team like Baltimore or Cinn (or Tenn, Jacks), give me Brooks Reed all day.

The litmus test for me is if we would consider signing Mario if he were someone else's free agent this offseason and that answer is absolutely not. I can point to 2 or 3 games where a CB/S or WR would have made a difference for us even with TJ at QB, yet don't see a game where having Mario out there last year would have made a difference just like 2010 when we won without him. Looking forward, the possible losses of Myers, Foster, D. Brown, Barwin, Schaub, Cushing, A. Smith far outweigh not having Mario here which is mainly lost upside. Not that I want this, but going out and signing a guy like Vincent Jackson for half of what Mario will get would barely make it past "wouldn't it be nice" stage, while adding a pass rusher for $50 million+ guaranteed to a top 3 defense on a young team up against the cap wouldn't get past "and monkey's may fly out of my butt" stage.

Rey
02-20-2012, 03:05 PM
What did Reed do in pass covereage last year? And Brooks Reed is not better against the run than Mario.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 03:12 PM
Here is a a brilliant poster on another site I frequent

He is more articulate than me and puts everything I am saying into a better post.....enjoy

Eloquent indeed. However, he also brings more information to the conversation which bears consideration....

Yes, I was under the impression that the cap would jump in 2013, a 6-7% yearly increase makes more sense. I also expected 2013 to be the year, but everything I've read says the current contract runs through the 2013 season, so 2014 does make more sense.

However, I stand by my basic premise. Wade Phillips wants Mario. Rick Smith's job is to make it happen without hurting the long term position of the team. Maybe I don't have a clue as to how he can do that, like I said, glad I'm not Rick Smith.

I do not advocate over paying for Mario. $42M guaranteed over 3 years is where I say the top is (Peppers contract). $14M/yr avg is the tops (for me) (Peppers). & do what you gotta do to get his cap number to ~$10M for the 2012 (& now, the 2013) season.

That's not unreasonable. If that's not rich enough for him, I understand. No hard feelings against Mario, no hard feelings against Rick Smith (unless we don't replace him through the draft), no hard feelings against Bob McNair.

It's just business.

thunderkyss
02-20-2012, 03:15 PM
What did Reed do in pass covereage last year? And Brooks Reed is not better against the run than Mario.

I definitely did not agree with his "friends" take on Mario's play. It's a moot point if you ask me. Hater's gonna hate.

If Wade Phillips wants Mario Williams, that's all I need to know about Mario's play.

& everytime you hear Wade drool about passing downs, it's Barwin, Jj, Mario, & Brooks.... not that high effort guy who can't finish.

Ryan
02-20-2012, 04:00 PM
What's up with the recent string of ignorant new posters?

PapaL
02-20-2012, 04:02 PM
What's up with the recent string of ignorant new posters?

Team Success = New Trolls

amazing80
02-20-2012, 04:09 PM
What's up with the recent string of ignorant new posters?

Who is this in reference to?

RunTexans
02-21-2012, 09:32 AM
Do you see him holding out? Thoughts?

2slik4u
02-21-2012, 09:37 AM
Do you see him holding out? Thoughts?

sources?

Seņor Stan
02-21-2012, 09:46 AM
sources?

http://houston.sbnation.com/2012/2/20/2811640/arian-foster-could-receive-franchise-tag-by-texans

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/16/arian-fosters-agent-wont-be-offended-by-franchise-tag/

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 09:49 AM
It's just speculation at this point, but if they can't work out a deal they should tag him. Teams have until March 5th to use the franchise tag. They still have two weeks to try to work out a deal before using the tag on him, so I don't see why they would do it now. Might as well keep working on a deal before potentially pissing him off with a tag.

Here's a list of the franchise tag costs:
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/franchisetag2012.jpg

RunTexans
02-21-2012, 09:49 AM
none...just what I've heard from a few people that are familiar with a few players...I hear Arian isn't happy about it and apparently his agent was mis quoted in saying that he was ok with a tag...I don't put much stock in it since its probably a game of telephone. But I just wanted to get some thoughts.

gtexan02
02-21-2012, 09:58 AM
Why would they franchise him though? It doesn't make sense. Isn't he a RFA? Can't they use the restricted tag on him before they use the franchise tag? I would assume the RFA tender is much less than the franchise tag.

If I was in charge I would just sign him to a long term deal and avoid the circus that will come whether we RFA tender him or franchise him, but I have no inside info on the business side of things and so won't pretend to know what our offers/his demands have been. I think he's a special player though, and the fact that he has played on a contract given to an undrafted free agent as an all pro says a lot about the guy. He deserves a real contract

Seņor Stan
02-21-2012, 10:03 AM
Why would they franchise him though? It doesn't make sense. Isn't he a RFA? Can't they use the restricted tag on him before they use the franchise tag? I would assume the RFA tender is much less than the franchise tag.

If I was in charge I would just sign him to a long term deal and avoid the circus that will come whether we RFA tender him or franchise him, but I have no inside info on the business side of things and so won't pretend to know what our offers/his demands have been. I think he's a special player though, and the fact that he has played on a contract given to an undrafted free agent as an all pro says a lot about the guy. He deserves a real contract

They might be worried that someone would make him an offer that they couldn't/wouldn't match...

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 10:07 AM
Why would they franchise him though? It doesn't make sense. Isn't he a RFA? Can't they use the restricted tag on him before they use the franchise tag? I would assume the RFA tender is much less than the franchise tag.

If I was in charge I would just sign him to a long term deal and avoid the circus that will come whether we RFA tender him or franchise him, but I have no inside info on the business side of things and so won't pretend to know what our offers/his demands have been. I think he's a special player though, and the fact that he has played on a contract given to an undrafted free agent as an all pro says a lot about the guy. He deserves a real contract

If they put the RFA 1st round tender on him, he could be given a deal by another team that we can't match. Teams looking for good RBs like the Bengals or Lions may take a stab at signing him. We don't want to expose him to that, as it only makes his price tag go up. Need to work out a long-term deal with him to keep him numbers reasonable and lock him up.

Seņor Stan
02-21-2012, 10:12 AM
If they put the RFA 1st round tender on him, he could be given a deal by another team that we can't match. Teams looking for good RBs like the Bengals or Lions may take a stab at signing him. We don't want to expose him to that, as it only makes his price tag go up. Need to work out a long-term deal with him to keep him numbers reasonable and lock him up.

Makes me wonder...

Arian or (Trent Richardson + Arian's $ to be spent on another FA)

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 10:15 AM
Makes me wonder...

Arian or (Trent Richardson + Arian's $ to be spent on another FA)

Well, if the Bengals signed Arian under 1st round tender, we would get the 21st pick. I don't think Trent will be there. Now if the Redskins decided Arian was more valuable than the #6 pick, I could see that netting Trent, but they probably won't do that. I would expect Richardson to be gone in the first 10 picks, but I don't see any of those teams going after Arian.

NitroGSXR
02-21-2012, 10:17 AM
It's just speculation at this point, but if they can't work out a deal they should tag him. Teams have until March 5th to use the franchise tag. They still have two weeks to try to work out a deal before using the tag on him, so I don't see why they would do it now. Might as well keep working on a deal before potentially pissing him off with a tag.

Here's a list of the franchise tag costs:
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/franchisetag2012.jpg

It is reassuring to see some of those salaries have fallen. Is this normal? I thought the cap and salaries have no where to go but up.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 10:17 AM
If anyone was willing to give me a 1 for Foster I would take it and run.

This is the same Denver running scheme with the same Denver coaches who made Clinton Portis look like a hall of fame caliber running back.

Foster is good, but it's the system that makes him great.

I wish we could pull off a Portis for Bailey type trade with some clueless GM that doesn't understand that.

NCTexan
02-21-2012, 10:18 AM
It is reassuring to see some of those salaries have fallen. Is this normal? I thought the cap and salaries have no where to go but up.

I believe it was part of the new CBA, but from here on out they will just rise.

gary
02-21-2012, 10:30 AM
Would this help them with signing Mario or any other free agents at all with the cap?

gtexan02
02-21-2012, 10:32 AM
It is reassuring to see some of those salaries have fallen. Is this normal? I thought the cap and salaries have no where to go but up.

Its the way the new franchise tag is calculated. I think it changed from top 5 players to top players over certain number of years

Ole Miss Texan
02-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Would this help them with signing Mario or any other free agents at all with the cap?

Its the way the new franchise tag is calculated. I think it changed from top 5 players to top players over certain number of years

That is rather interesting. I believe the the new CBA changes the Franchise Tag figure from the average of the 5 highest paid players from the previous year to the average of the Highest Paid player in each of the past 5 years.

ckhouston
02-21-2012, 10:38 AM
Arian has said he is fine with getting the tag, but as many national outlets have pointed out, if the tender is a 1st, and one of the teams at the bottom of the first wants to offer him a nice deal (New England?), then he is gone. I think Rick has to figure out a way to get him signed.

Jackie Chiles
02-21-2012, 10:42 AM
Well, if the Bengals signed Arian under 1st round tender, we would get the 21st pick. I don't think Trent will be there. Now if the Redskins decided Arian was more valuable than the #6 pick, I could see that netting Trent, but they probably won't do that. I would expect Richardson to be gone in the first 10 picks, but I don't see any of those teams going after Arian.

I have a bit of a general question. Seeing as the Bengals have two first round picks are you positive we would get the 2nd (21) one in this scenario? The other pick is 17 I believe.

Rey
02-21-2012, 10:43 AM
If anyone was willing to give me a 1 for Foster I would take it and run.


Foster is good, but it's the system that makes him great.
I wish we could pull off a Portis for Bailey type trade with some clueless GM that doesn't understand that.

I disagree and I have disagreed ever since he got a full season of starting.

Foster is a beast and the system suits him perfectly...

His pass catching, run blocking and running ability transcends the system. Foster would be a good back in just about any system..

I think Arian is better than Portis was...

That said, if someone wanted to give up a top ten pick or an elite player at premium position for him I'd have to seriously consider it.

gary
02-21-2012, 10:43 AM
Tender him but do not trade him.

RunTexans
02-21-2012, 10:45 AM
Arian has said he is fine with getting the tag, but as many national outlets have pointed out, if the tender is a 1st, and one of the teams at the bottom of the first wants to offer him a nice deal (New England?), then he is gone. I think Rick has to figure out a way to get him signed.

I dont recall Arian saying that, I listened to the interview and heard his agent say that he understood if the Texans were to franchise him, its part of the business and he wouldn't be offended they would adjust accordingly(nice way of saying, if they do tag him we'll have to do what we have to do) but he thinks securing a long term relationship with the organization was what was desired.

it sounded to me like they are trying to be nice about it if they do tag him...but I think there will be a disgruntled running back if they tag him and don't do a deal before the season.

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 10:57 AM
I have a bit of a general question. Seeing as the Bengals have two first round picks are you positive we would get the 2nd (21) one in this scenario? The other pick is 17 I believe.

The way I understand it is that the pick given up must be equal or greater than the pick the team would have been assigned in that round. So in this case, 21 is the spot the Bengals original pick, 17 is one they got in trade. However, if they did not have 21, but had 17, 17 could be given up as compensation for signing a 1st round RFA because 17 is higher than their original pick would have been.

I don't know what happens if the team doesn't have a 1st round pick though. If the Raiders lose Michael Bush and try to sign Foster, Forte, McCoy or Rice for some reason (assuming they get RFA tenders), I have no idea what would happen.

Hardcore Texan
02-21-2012, 11:00 AM
How many run plays have we seen that the defenders blew up the play and left the run play no where to go, Arian reverses field and turns into a big gain? You can't teach that, and that's not the system. (I am not saying the ZBS doesn't suit him because it clearly does, but he won't be limited to being successful in this system only).

Arian is the best RB in the NFL right now, lock him up long term while you can.

ckhouston
02-21-2012, 11:00 AM
I dont recall Arian saying that, I listened to the interview and heard his agent say that he understood if the Texans were to franchise him, its part of the business and he wouldn't be offended they would adjust accordingly(nice way of saying, if they do tag him we'll have to do what we have to do) but he thinks securing a long term relationship with the organization was what was desired.

it sounded to me like they are trying to be nice about it if they do tag him...but I think there will be a disgruntled running back if they tag him and don't do a deal before the season.

I could see where that could be the perception of the comment. If he was tagged he would get close to 8mil, compared to .5mil he got last year. I read it as he wouldn't hold out, but if another team offered him a big payday wouldn't mind either.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 11:08 AM
I disagree and I have disagreed ever since he got a full season of starting.

Foster is a beast and the system suits him perfectly...

His pass catching, run blocking and running ability transcends the system. Foster would be a good back in just about any system..

You said it yourself. Foster would be good in any system. He's great in Houston because of the system.

I think Arian is better than Portis was...

Did you watch Portis in Denver?

TimeKiller
02-21-2012, 11:10 AM
If they do, I wouldn't be surprised unless they didn't try to also extend him at some point before the season. Dude deserves his money, he's acted nothing like Dunta Robinson and the FO knows it as well as we know it as well as Foster and his people know it.

Tag him for extra time but get the deal done.

NCTexan
02-21-2012, 11:10 AM
I don't know what happens if the team doesn't have a 1st round pick though. If the Raiders lose Michael Bush and try to sign Foster, Forte, McCoy or Rice for some reason (assuming they get RFA tenders), I have no idea what would happen.

I couldn't seem to find anything specific on that after a quick google search and a glance over the CBA, but it does say that

G) Draft Choice Compensation under this Article shall be due in that League Year's Draft unless the Offer Sheet is received by the Prior Club later than two days before that League Year's Draft, in which case Draft Choice Compensation shall be due in the following League Year's Draft.

Which almost makes it seem to me that you have to have that pick that year unless you wait until two days before the draft. So I guess in your example the Raider's could only try to sign one of them if they were still available 2 days before the draft, as that would allow them to use the next year's pick.

Granted I could be completely wrong.

GP
02-21-2012, 11:12 AM
No way do you let Arian Foster get away. NO WAY. It would be a colossal mistake for this franchise to even risk it at all.

We lucked into the guy in the first place, he's not "just a product of the system" as rey has pointed out very nicely, and without him...I think this offense would shrink more than people think it would (for reasons rey listed).

Plus, who the hell cares if we get a 1st rounder for him? You better hit on that draft pick if you go that route, IMO. You have to hit a home run with it AND replace Foster either with that pick or some new UDFA or undiscovered/unpolished "gem" that Kubiak spent roughly 4 or 5 years looking for until he found Foster (and even then, Foster almost picked the Saints over us!).

Our QB situation is flimsy, folks. Schaub is mending, don't know what he'll be like when he TRIES to come back and play again. Yates is Yates, meaning that he's an unproven and still "raw" QB trying to find his stride in this league. Andre Johnson is not the same player he was, and God only knows what his 2012 season will look like with the hammies in the condition they're in. We have a lot of uncertainty on offense, IMO, that is masked by a very good defense...and people are Ok with merely tendering Foster and possibly getting another first rounder if he gets away????? SMH.

I don't get it. I hope McNair is making Foster Priority #1 and Mario Priority #2. Priority #2 is a luxury item, IMO, but Priority #1 is the guy on offense that defenses have to account for on every single play. You can't say that about anybody else except possibly Owen Daniels (who is becoming injured every freaking year it seems. He was ABSENT in the Ravens playoff game, probably due to a broken hand that he was trying to tough out for the sake of the team).

No way in hell do you even allow the CHANCE for Foster to get any offers in a RFA situation. You lock him up, now, and work everybody else's contracts around Foster's contract. Myers? So what. Use your first rounder on the dude from Nebraska and let Myers go if he won't deal nicely with us so that we can get Foster onboard. Same goes for everyone else, including Mario Williams.

Draft and FA can replace the guys who don't understand that as Foster goes, this team's offense goes with him. Your franchise guy on the defense is Wade Phillips, obviously as 2011 showed us (in his draft of players, his coaching of the D, and the way we looked when he was calling plays and when he was gone for two weeks). If the Texans don't see that, and they get cute with Foster, then they deserve the ass kicking that will ensue in 2012. My two cents.

[/overreaction]

Doppelganger
02-21-2012, 11:16 AM
I couldn't seem to find anything specific on that after a quick google search and a glance over the CBA, but it does say that



Which almost makes it seem to me that you have to have that pick that year unless you wait until two days before the draft. So I guess in your example the Raider's could only try to sign one of them if they were still available 2 days before the draft, as that would allow them to use the next year's pick.

Granted I could be completely wrong.

The Raiders traded their 2012 first rounder and a conditional 2nd to the Bengals for Palmer. Had the Raiders made the playoffs (which they came within a hair) and won a playoff game, they would have had to surrender their 1st rounder in 2013 rather than the 2nd rounder.

Who knows if the Raiders will still have that first rounder at the end FA this year!

Rey
02-21-2012, 11:17 AM
You said it yourself. Foster would be good in any system. He's great in Houston because of the system.


Ok let me rephrase then...

I think Foster would be Great in any system....????



Did you watch Portis in Denver?

Yes I did and he was not the player that Foster is.

Blake
02-21-2012, 11:18 AM
Texans must make a choice on Williams before they can decide Foster's future.

It would be hard to see Foster leave, but he should not be franchised, and a first round pick would help heal the wound.

I hate to say it, but it is looking more and more likely that Williams will hit free agency and we will get nothing in return. We will then use that extra money to lock up everyone else, and start working on next years deals.

RunTexans
02-21-2012, 11:20 AM
No way do you let Arian Foster get away. NO WAY. It would be a colossal mistake for this franchise to even risk it at all.

We lucked into the guy in the first place, he's not "just a product of the system" as rey has pointed out very nicely, and without him...I think this offense would shrink more than people think it would (for reasons rey listed).

Plus, who the hell cares if we get a 1st rounder for him? You better hit on that draft pick if you go that route, IMO. You have to hit a home run with it AND replace Foster either with that pick or some new UDFA or undiscovered/unpolished "gem" that Kubiak spent roughly 4 or 5 years looking for until he found Foster (and even then, Foster almost picked the Saints over us!).

Our QB situation is flimsy, folks. Schaub is mending, don't know what he'll be like when he TRIES to come back and play again. Yates is Yates, meaning that he's an unproven and still "raw" QB trying to find his stride in this league. Andre Johnson is not the same player he was, and God only knows what his 2012 season will look like with the hammies in the condition they're in. We have a lot of uncertainty on offense, IMO, that is masked by a very good defense...and people are Ok with merely tendering Foster and possibly getting another first rounder if he gets away????? SMH.

I don't get it. I hope McNair is making Foster Priority #1 and Mario Priority #2. Priority #2 is a luxury item, IMO, but Priority #1 is the guy on offense that defenses have to account for on every single play. You can't say that about anybody else except possibly Owen Daniels (who is becoming injured every freaking year it seems. He was ABSENT in the Ravens playoff game, probably due to a broken hand that he was trying to tough out for the sake of the team).

No way in hell do you even allow the CHANCE for Foster to get any offers in a RFA situation. You lock him up, now, and work everybody else's contracts around Foster's contract. Myers? So what. Use your first rounder on the dude from Nebraska and let Myers go if he won't deal nicely with us so that we can get Foster onboard. Same goes for everyone else, including Mario Williams.

Draft and FA can replace the guys who don't understand that as Foster goes, this team's offense goes with him. Your franchise guy on the defense is Wade Phillips, obviously as 2011 showed us (in his draft of players, his coaching of the D, and the way we looked when he was calling plays and when he was gone for two weeks). If the Texans don't see that, and they get cute with Foster, then they deserve the ass kicking that will ensue in 2012. My two cents.

[/overreaction]

never thought of this but it makes sense to me...

GP
02-21-2012, 11:23 AM
Did you watch Portis in Denver?

I did. And he ain't NOTHING like Arian Foster if we're comparing the two in their respective stages of career with Broncos/Texans.

Arian does crazy crap that I don't think I've seen since Walter Payton. The fluid nature of his running style, the TINY but well-timed moves he makes that cause defenders to fall down or trip over themselves, and the length of his stride and how he gains ground quicker than it appears to a defender, it's all stuff that you don't find every year. Heck, it's once-every-10-years type of "stuff" that Arian Foster has.

I don't care for the guy's tweets and his whole karma/zen/philosophical personality he has going on, but he is SPECIAL on the field and that's that. If the Texans get cute on this deal, then we deserve whatever happens...which will likely be Foster going bonkers on some other team and the Texans regressing on offense. Won't THAT be fun to watch every Sunday? And have analysts on TV mocking us for being THAT stoopid to let him get away. It would be a fail on so many levels.

Every player can get hurt. Every player can lose his mojo somehow. But if your guy (Foster) is on your team, and he's performing as consistently as Foster is, and it's a position that you historically have struggled to fill PROPERLY...you don't act like you can go out and find another Foster in 2012's draft or UDFA market. This is the biggest deal the Texans FO should be working on right now, and Mario can play more XBOX and wait for Foster's deal to shake out first and foremost, IMO.

So help me, if we lose Foster and retain Mario, it will be a really bad mistake to have chosen a luxury item over the essential item. IMO.

amazing80
02-21-2012, 11:25 AM
They better do whatever they can to obtain AF. He MAKES OUR RED ZONE OFFENSE. Losing him would be huge to this team. I will be very pissed if they let him walk.

DX-TEX
02-21-2012, 11:28 AM
Arian needs to stay. PERIOD.

They guy is the best all round back in the league right now and a class individual. Fits Uncle Bob to a T.

santo
02-21-2012, 11:29 AM
If anybody can guarantee that the first rounder can do this, then for all means go for it:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/880991/foster.gif

Until then, I rather stick with Foster.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 11:30 AM
as Foster goes, this team's offense goes with him.
[/overreaction]

2008 Total offense 3rd Points 17th
2009 Total offense 4th Points 10th
2010 Total offense 3rd Points 9th
2011 Total offense 13th Points 10th

I'm not seeing the evidence for your argument.

Ok let me rephrase then...

I think Foster would be Great in any system....????

Yes I did and he was not the player that Foster is.

I completely disagree. He was so good Washington traded the best CB in the NFL for him. Do you see the Jets lining up to hand over Revis? :shades:

Blake
02-21-2012, 11:32 AM
If anybody can guarantee that the first rounder can do this, then for all means go for it:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/880991/foster.gif

Until then, I rather stick with Foster.

I cant guarantee Foster could do it again.

GP
02-21-2012, 11:33 AM
never thought of this but it makes sense to me...

I think people have gotten lazy when it comes to the analysis of our offense. We've been so consistently "good" for the past four or five years since Schaub took the controls at QB that people have become complacent in regards to what can happen when you lose a game-changing type player.

For years, AJ was that game-changing player. And I think people are so sentimental about AJ...thinking that in no way can Superman lose his powers...that they have failed to realize the old is getting older and the new is here to be that game-changing guy. Foster is the key ingredient for Kubiak now, and anything we get out of AJ is gravy (due to his injuries and age). Add in the uncertainty in the QB position, and it is a recipe for disaster if Foster walks.

God love Mario, but man oh man him walking away does not affect the Texans in the same capacity as it would if Foster hit the bricks.

Foster's deal should be the priority, and everyone else structured around it. Let's not go into 2012 with uncertainty at QB, an aging and oft-injured AJ and OD, Kevin Walter at WR2, and Ben Tate as our only RB threat. Good luck intimidating opposing defenses with THAT lineup every Sunday.

We're a risky move away, on offense, from rendering our progress useless. The defense worked well because the offense could put the load on Foster's shoulders and let him do work. Re-watch the Ravens/Texans playoff game if you don't believe me. Without Foster that day, it would have been a blowout.

Doppelganger
02-21-2012, 11:33 AM
No way do you let Arian Foster get away. NO WAY. It would be a colossal mistake for this franchise to even risk it at all.

We lucked into the guy in the first place, he's not "just a product of the system" as rey has pointed out very nicely, and without him...I think this offense would shrink more than people think it would (for reasons rey listed).

Plus, who the hell cares if we get a 1st rounder for him? You better hit on that draft pick if you go that route, IMO. You have to hit a home run with it AND replace Foster either with that pick or some new UDFA or undiscovered/unpolished "gem" that Kubiak spent roughly 4 or 5 years looking for until he found Foster (and even then, Foster almost picked the Saints over us!).

Our QB situation is flimsy, folks. Schaub is mending, don't know what he'll be like when he TRIES to come back and play again. Yates is Yates, meaning that he's an unproven and still "raw" QB trying to find his stride in this league. Andre Johnson is not the same player he was, and God only knows what his 2012 season will look like with the hammies in the condition they're in. We have a lot of uncertainty on offense, IMO, that is masked by a very good defense...and people are Ok with merely tendering Foster and possibly getting another first rounder if he gets away????? SMH.

I don't get it. I hope McNair is making Foster Priority #1 and Mario Priority #2. Priority #2 is a luxury item, IMO, but Priority #1 is the guy on offense that defenses have to account for on every single play. You can't say that about anybody else except possibly Owen Daniels (who is becoming injured every freaking year it seems. He was ABSENT in the Ravens playoff game, probably due to a broken hand that he was trying to tough out for the sake of the team).

No way in hell do you even allow the CHANCE for Foster to get any offers in a RFA situation. You lock him up, now, and work everybody else's contracts around Foster's contract. Myers? So what. Use your first rounder on the dude from Nebraska and let Myers go if he won't deal nicely with us so that we can get Foster onboard. Same goes for everyone else, including Mario Williams.

Draft and FA can replace the guys who don't understand that as Foster goes, this team's offense goes with him. Your franchise guy on the defense is Wade Phillips, obviously as 2011 showed us (in his draft of players, his coaching of the D, and the way we looked when he was calling plays and when he was gone for two weeks). If the Texans don't see that, and they get cute with Foster, then they deserve the ass kicking that will ensue in 2012. My two cents.

[/overreaction]

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but at the same time it has to be reasonable. The Texans CANNOT give Foster CJ or AD kind of money. Heavily investing big bucks in a running back almost NEVER works out for the team. I am all for giving Foster a very solid top 5 contract, but not if it hangs a massive albatross around the team's neck.

I agree wholeheartedly with this comment of yours "We have a lot of uncertainty on offense, IMO, that is masked by a very good defense." The Defense is a young, hungry, energetic group. Perhaps we are all going about this wrong. Maybe what we need to do is really focus on the defense and build it up into a monstrous smothering Defense on the order of the 49ers of last year and the Ravens/Steeler teams of the past. Constant pressure, swarming run D, excellent coverage, and precise tackling would be our bread and butter. In that scenario, we would sign Mario, restructure contracts, and probably tag Foster. We could then work out a deal with him later on.

Rey
02-21-2012, 11:38 AM
2008 Total offense 3rd Points 17th
2009 Total offense 4th Points 10th
2010 Total offense 3rd Points 9th
2011 Total offense 13th Points 10th

I'm not seeing the evidence for your argument.



I completely disagree. He was so good Washington traded the best CB in the NFL for him. Do you see the Jets lining up to hand over Revis? :shades:

So your logic is: Because washington did it, it must be a good move :um:

GP
02-21-2012, 11:40 AM
2008 Total offense 3rd Points 17th
2009 Total offense 4th Points 10th
2010 Total offense 3rd Points 9th
2011 Total offense 13th Points 10th

I'm not seeing the evidence for your argument.

Well, maybe you should actually think of WHY the stats look the way they do???

Off the top of my head, I'd say that Andre Johnson was the game-changing CONSISTENT player that created nightmares for opposing d-coordinators and defenders....meaning that AJ and Schaub were eating up yards and racking up points.

Foster is in that AJ role now. Period. He creates nightmares for a team trying to game plan against us, and he consumes yards and is the go-to-guy when we need a crucial 3rd down play to extend a drive. The animated GIF image that santo posted is THE definitive example of what I am saying. Arian Foster does things that amaze us and we used to say that about AJ. Old guard, new guard, and all that jazz...

If this is not true, then I should stop watching football and trying to commentate on it in a public forum such as this one. It's patently obvious that AJ is fading and Foster has filled that role now. Ben Tate is the perfect compliment to Foster's style, as well, and it only makes Foster that much more lethal to have a Ben Tate alongside him.

Rey
02-21-2012, 11:40 AM
2008 Total offense 3rd Points 17th
2009 Total offense 4th Points 10th
2010 Total offense 3rd Points 9th
2011 Total offense 13th Points 10th

I'm not seeing the evidence for your argument.



I completely disagree. He was so good Washington traded the best CB in the NFL for him. Do you see the Jets lining up to hand over Revis? :shades:

Go look at the Red Zone scoring with and without Foster.

He is MR. Redzone.

But more than that, just watch the damn games.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 11:40 AM
So your logic is: Because washington did it, it must be a good move :um:

Most people at the time felt it was a fair trade and quite a few felt that Washington may have even come out ahead.

El Tejano
02-21-2012, 11:47 AM
The reason you sign Arian right now is because Arian has displayed professionalism throughout all of this in return for a team that gave him a shot. Bob Mcnair said that Arian will be compensated if Arian displays his production on a consistent basis. Arian did that and more.

If Arian holds out, it will not be because he is a primaddona (Chris Johnson) as Arian has done everything to show that he is not greater than the team and loves being apart of this team. If Arian holds out it will be because he has proved on and off the field that he belongs in this league as one of the higher paid players in the league.

Rey
02-21-2012, 11:47 AM
Most people at the time felt it was a fair trade and quite a few felt that Washington may have even come out ahead.

Arian is a huge chunk of our offense and he accounts for a lot of the TD's...Especially in the Red Zone.

If you recall, our offense has been notoriously good in between the 20's, but struggled in the RZ. We don't pass for a lot of RZ TD's.

Not until we got Arian did we start capatalizing on more of the short yardage opprotunities.

I'm not saying that another player couldn't convert short yardage or be a red zone monster, but Arian is a short yardage and RZ monster IN ADDITION TO being a beast everywhere else.

I don't see what Washington and Denver did has anything to do with this current discussion though.

Are you trying to say that Portis was that much better than Arian and that is the reason Washington was willing to give up an elite corner for him?

Maybe they were just dumb?

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 11:48 AM
Well, maybe you should actually think of WHY the stats look the way they do???

Off the top of my head, I'd say that Andre Johnson was the game-changing CONSISTENT player that created nightmares for opposing d-coordinators and defenders....meaning that AJ and Schaub were eating up yards and racking up points.

Foster is in that AJ role now. Period. He creates nightmares for a team trying to game plan against us, and he consumes yards and is the go-to-guy when we need a crucial 3rd down play to extend a drive. The animated GIF image that santo posted is THE definitive example of what I am saying. Arian Foster does things that amaze us and we used to say that about AJ. Old guard, new guard, and all that jazz...

If this is not true, then I should stop watching football and trying to commentate on it in a public forum such as this one. It's patently obvious that AJ is fading and Foster has filled that role now. Ben Tate is the perfect compliment to Foster's style, as well, and it only makes Foster that much more lethal to have a Ben Tate alongside him.

AJ is still the go to guy in the offense. Even with 2 blown out hammies the guy was still the focus of defenses and still piled on the yards. He's going to be good whether Foster, Tate or even a bum neck Slaton is in the backfield.

I don't get the love that people pile on this guy. He is great in a system that makes nobodies into 1k yard rushers, running behind an O-line with 3 guys who got All Pro votes. In 2010 and 2011 he rushed for a full yard or more per carry less than his backup.

Go look at the Red Zone scoring with and without Foster.

He is MR. Redzone.

But more than that, just watch the damn games.

Yes, he's a very good goal line back, but you can get that for a lot less than $7+ mil a year and his abilities between the 10's are not irreplaceable.

I've seen every Texans game and he is not some once in a generation player. Great(in this system), but he's no LT and I would take 2003 Portis over him in a heartbeat.

GP
02-21-2012, 11:49 AM
I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but at the same time it has to be reasonable. The Texans CANNOT give Foster CJ or AD kind of money. Heavily investing big bucks in a running back almost NEVER works out for the team. I am all for giving Foster a very solid top 5 contract, but not if it hangs a massive albatross around the team's neck.

I agree wholeheartedly with this comment of yours "We have a lot of uncertainty on offense, IMO, that is masked by a very good defense." The Defense is a young, hungry, energetic group. Perhaps we are all going about this wrong. Maybe what we need to do is really focus on the defense and build it up into a monstrous smothering Defense on the order of the 49ers of last year and the Ravens/Steeler teams of the past. Constant pressure, swarming run D, excellent coverage, and precise tackling would be our bread and butter. In that scenario, we would sign Mario, restructure contracts, and probably tag Foster. We could then work out a deal with him later on.

If Foster gets a $7 million franchise this year, does that $7 million count against our 2012 cap? I don't know how franchise tag salary affects the cap space number for that season. And it only puts off for tomorrow what you can wisely get done today. That's my two "big problems" with using a tag on him.

However, doppelganger, I think the prospect of possibly signing Mario and tagging Foster could be the way to have our cake and eat it too...if it could work out. It puts a burden on us in 2013 to find a way to get Foster signed long-term, though, which is a bit scary to me if Foster has another great season THIS year and makes his stock rise even more! The upside is that he might regress in 2012 and lose stock value...which would still be "bad" for us since that will likely mean bad things in the W-L column.

I wasn't nervous about our free agent re-signings until THIS thread came along. In my mind, it was only Mario who had the big question mark beside his name on the list. A team out there who has the cap space AND the balls to make a "poison pill contract" offer that would bust the Texans is scary.

Has the league done anything to make teams less likely to create poison pill contract RFA offers? I know there was wide angst in the league about it, a few season ago, and am wondering if the league has found a way to curb that sort of dirty dealing.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 11:54 AM
Has the league done anything to make teams less likely to create poison pill contract RFA offers? I know there was wide angst in the league about it, a few season ago, and am wondering if the league has found a way to curb that sort of dirty dealing.

Yes. The new CBA prohibits contracts that increase the value if a player plays in a particular place or for a particular team.

Rey
02-21-2012, 11:55 AM
Yes, he's a very good goal line back, but you can get that for a lot less than $7+ mil a year and his abilities between the 10's are not irreplaceable.

I've seen every Texans game and he is not some once in a generation player. Great(in this system), but he's no LT and I would take 2003 Portis over him in a heartbeat.

Well I'm not here to change your opinion, just stating mine.

I think you are wrong as can be but that's what's great about America...You can be wrong if you choose to.

:clown:

GP
02-21-2012, 12:00 PM
AJ is still the go to guy in the offense. Even with 2 blown out hammies the guy was still the focus of defenses and still piled on the yards. He's going to be good whether Foster, Tate or even a bum neck Slaton is in the backfield. That's crazy talk. I would agree with that statement in 2010, but not now. Foster is what AJ used to be, different positions but the impact and game planning focus has shifted from our WR to our RB.

I don't get the love that people pile on this guy. He is great in a system that makes nobodies into 1k yard rushers, running behind an O-line with 3 guys who got All Pro votes. In 2010 and 2011 he rushed for a full yard or more per carry less than his backup. There you go with stats again. If a backup is in on 3rd down plays (or other downs) and busts off a 10 or 20-yard carry, it offsets his other four or five 3rd down plays where he only got maybe 2 or 3 or 4 yards-per-carry. Foster is in the game for 66%, roughly, of the plays and therefore is going to have a lesser average because of the number of plays he has. He has twice as many plays than the backup has, which affects the math. Plus, Tate was the starter and got all the snaps in our first 3 or 4 games in 2011 and Foster had zero yards on zero carries in those first 3 or 4 games. I know because I had Tate in my fantasy league and I scored NICE points in our first 3 or 4 games in 2011. That skews the stats that you're serving up.



Yes, he's a very good goal line back, but you can get that for a lot less than $7+ mil a year and his abilities between the 10's are not irreplaceable.

I've seen every Texans game and he is not some once in a generation player. Great(in this system), but he's no LT and I would take 2003 Portis over him in a heartbeat. Well, you go find us the LT or 2003 Portis to replace Foster with if you think Foster is not adequate enough or as special as those guys. I, too, have seen every Texans game and Steve Slaton could not replicate his rookie season. I bet the Texans offensive line, especially now that the QB position is a bit wobbly for 2012, would LOVE to know that Foster is coming back and not a risky UDFA or draft pick meant to try and replace him. I would imagine the entire team and its coaches would rather trot out Foster for the next several years than risking an alternative. IMO.

My replies in red, above. I respect your points but I disagree with them.

amazing80
02-21-2012, 12:08 PM
People are really saying its ok to let AF go, but will defend Mario to death? Are you guys kidding me?!?!?!

amazing80
02-21-2012, 12:09 PM
My replies in red, above. I respect your points but I disagree with them.

First time in my life, but I agree with you 100000% :clown:

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 12:10 PM
That's crazy talk. I would agree with that statement in 2010, but not now. Foster is what AJ used to be, different positions but the impact and game planning focus has shifted from our WR to our RB.

AJ isn't some 35 year old on his last leg. He had one bad injury that should be fully healed. There's no reason to think he's going to suffer some dramatic drop off considering his performance in 2011.

There you go with stats again.

Damn those pesky facts.

If a backup is in on 3rd down plays (or other downs) and busts off a 10 or 20-yard carry, it offsets his other four or five 3rd down plays where he only got maybe 2 or 3 or 4 yards-per-carry. Foster is in the game for 66%, roughly, of the plays and therefore is going to have a lesser average because of the number of plays he has. He has twice as many plays than the backup has, which affects the math.

This doesn't bear out anywhere else in the league on any kind of consistent basis, and on the few cases it does the backup is probably better than the starter but the coach has loyalty issues. Foster got his fair share of 3rd and long draw plays to pad his stats. It isn't as if his backup is only getting freebee yards.

Plus, Tate was the starter and got all the snaps in our first 3 or 4 games in 2011 and Foster had zero yards on zero carries in those first 3 or 4 games. I know because I had Tate in my fantasy league and I scored NICE points in our first 3 or 4 games in 2011. That skews the stats that you're serving up.

Actually Tate starting refutes your point above that his YPA is higher because he's only getting limited carries as a backup.

YPA stands for yards per attempt. Not yards per game or total yards.





Well, you go find us the LT or 2003 Portis to replace Foster with if you think Foster is not adequate enough or as special as those guys. I, too, have seen every Texans game and Steve Slaton could not replicate his rookie season. I bet the Texans offensive line, especially now that the QB position is a bit wobbly for 2012, would LOVE to know that Foster is coming back and not a risky UDFA or draft pick meant to try and replace him. I would imagine the entire team and its coaches would rather trot out Foster for the next several years than risking an alternative. IMO.

He wouldn't be replaced by an UDFA. We have Tate and maybe Ward, and that's assuming that someone actually signs him and gives up a 1st. In all likelihood nobody would step up and we would still have Foster on the cheap.

dream_team
02-21-2012, 12:20 PM
If anyone was willing to give me a 1 for Foster I would take it and run.

This is the same Denver running scheme with the same Denver coaches who made Clinton Portis look like a hall of fame caliber running back.

Foster is good, but it's the system that makes him great.

I wish we could pull off a Portis for Bailey type trade with some clueless GM that doesn't understand that.

Oh how we quickly forget about Steve Slaton, Chris Brown, and Ryan Moats. Three guys in the same system with basically the same OL. If its the system, how did Foster take over and why did we have to draft Tate?

A good system, and a good RB go hand & hand. You need a good system to give your player opportunities. You need a good RB to take advantage of those opportunities.

amazing80
02-21-2012, 12:25 PM
AJ isn't some 35 year old on his last leg. He had one bad injury that should be fully healed. There's no reason to think he's going to suffer some dramatic drop off considering his performance in 2011.



Damn those pesky facts.



This doesn't bear out anywhere else in the league on any kind of consistent basis, and on the few cases it does the backup is probably better than the starter but the coach has loyalty issues. Foster got his fair share of 3rd and long draw plays to pad his stats. It isn't as if his backup is only getting freebee yards.



Actually Tate starting refutes your point above that his YPA is higher because he's only getting limited carries as a backup.

YPA stands for yards per attempt. Not yards per game or total yards.







He wouldn't be replaced by an UDFA. We have Tate and maybe Ward, and that's assuming that someone actually signs him and gives up a 1st. In all likelihood nobody would step up and we would still have Foster on the cheap.

Yea, how many TDs did Tate have while starting in place of Foster? Here let me tell you, 1, yup thats right, he scored 1 total TD in place of Arian, are you willing to keep that pace up?


That was playing 3 awful defense to open the season in Indy, Miami and New Orleans. He is NOT Arian and never will be. He is a great change of pace back, but thats it.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 12:27 PM
Oh how we quickly forget about Steve Slaton, Chris Brown, and Ryan Moats. Three guys in the same system with basically the same OL. If its the system, how did Foster take over and why did we have to draft Tate?

Foster got his chance because Slaton's career basically ended with a preseason neck injury that caused severe nerve damage. He couldn't even feel the ball in his hand resulting in a serious fumbling problem and he never fully recovered.

A good system, and a good RB go hand & hand. You need a good system to give your player opportunities. You need a good RB to take advantage of those opportunities.

Good RBs are not that hard to find. Slaton was good until he blew up his neck, Tate is good, Foster is good, Ward is good, etc.

If I can keep foster for the top RFA tender fantastic but if somebody wants to give him a huge contract and give me a #1 that's cool too.

amazing80
02-21-2012, 12:31 PM
Foster got his chance because Slaton's career basically ended with a preseason neck injury that caused severe nerve damage. He couldn't even feel the ball in his hand resulting in a serious fumbling problem and he never fully recovered.



Good RBs are not that hard to find. Slaton was good until he blew up his neck, Tate is good, Foster is good, Ward is good, etc.

If I can keep foster for the top RFA tender fantastic but if somebody wants to give him a huge contract and give me a #1 that's cool too.

Lucky for us you don't call the shots.

Arian
Myers
Money for role players





Mario Williams


Thats the order our off-season signings should go.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Lucky for us you don't call the shots.

Arian
Myers
Money for role players





Mario Williams


Thats the order our off-season signings should go.

Rick Smith and company are calling the shots and Mario is their stated #1 priority. Considering he's almost universally regarded as the best FA or RFA on the market, that's probably a good idea.

GP
02-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Goatcheese,

I would not stake 2012 on the shoulders of Ben Tate and Derrick Ward.

I might be over-valuing Foster, but I think you might be under-valuing him as well.

The only way to find out is to let him walk and see how we do without him, which I don't want see what we look like without him. I've seen what we look like on defense without Mario, but don't want to see a season with no Foster.

The point is that we have Foster, why would we risk losing him right now? So what if the money is tied up in a position that trends toward getting hurt and less effective because of it? I happen to think any of the 52 guys can have that happen to them, just ask our 2011 punter about that probability. But to willingly let the guy walk because we think we can do without him (via Tate and Ward)? No thanks.

Foster also is very wise about when to run out of bounds, rather than foolishly trying to get 21 yards instead of settling for 20. He's prolonging his career, IMO, and his hamstring problems were likely a result of lack of proper conditioning in off-season and not comparative to AJ's.

By the way, AJ's hamstring is OFF THE BONE in at least one region of the muscle. His hamstring, what's remaining of it, is now carrying more load than it should. Which is forcing other nearby muscles/ligaments/etc. to also carry more burden than it should. It's not the same as many other injuries. He's a ticking time bomb, in terms of a potential injury to the knee and other leg muscles and tendons, etc.

amazing80
02-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Rick Smith and company are calling the shots and Mario is their stated #1 priority. Considering he's almost universally regarded as the best FA or RFA on the market, that's probably a good idea.

Talk is cheap, lets see how gets signed first

Seņor Stan
02-21-2012, 12:35 PM
If anybody can guarantee that the first rounder can do this, then for all means go for it:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/880991/foster.gif


Our 2010 1st rounder could do it.

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/jj-watt-2.gif

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 12:39 PM
But to willingly let the guy walk because we think we can do without him (via Tate and Ward)? No thanks.

Tate, Ward, another lower cost FA and a 1st round draft pick?

I could live with losing Foster, but I still don't think anyone would give up a #1 and shell out money we couldn't match.

Why shell out $7+ mil when you have a 90% chance of keeping him for peanuts?

JCTexan
02-21-2012, 12:42 PM
Our 2010 1st rounder could do it.

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/jj-watt-2.gif

What did Kareem Jackson do on that play? :shades:

amazing80
02-21-2012, 12:43 PM
Tate, Ward, another lower cost FA and a 1st round draft pick?

I could live with losing Foster, but I still don't think anyone would give up a #1 and shell out money we couldn't match.

Why shell out $7+ mil when you have a 90% chance of keeping him for peanuts?

I think you missed me post this on the last page



Yea, how many TDs did Tate have while starting in place of Foster? Here let me tell you, 1, yup thats right, he scored 1 total TD in place of Arian, are you willing to keep that pace up?


That was playing 3 awful defense to open the season in Indy, Miami and New Orleans. He is NOT Arian and never will be. He is a great change of pace back, but thats it.

Corrosion
02-21-2012, 12:44 PM
It's just speculation at this point, but if they can't work out a deal they should tag him. Teams have until March 5th to use the franchise tag. They still have two weeks to try to work out a deal before using the tag on him, so I don't see why they would do it now. Might as well keep working on a deal before potentially pissing him off with a tag.

Here's a list of the franchise tag costs:


Why should they bother tagging a restricted FA who they have the right to match offers for ?!


The OP is stiring up sh!t where there aint no need to ....

Texan_Bill
02-21-2012, 12:48 PM
Why should they bother tagging a restricted FA who they have the right to match offers for ?!


The OP is stiring up sh!t where there aint no need to ....

You know the old addage: If you throw enough **** against the wall, something's bound to stick.

GP
02-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Foster got his chance because Slaton's career basically ended with a preseason neck injury that caused severe nerve damage. He couldn't even feel the ball in his hand resulting in a serious fumbling problem and he never fully recovered.



Good RBs are not that hard to find. Slaton was good until he blew up his neck, Tate is good, Foster is good, Ward is good, etc.

If I can keep foster for the top RFA tender fantastic but if somebody wants to give him a huge contract and give me a #1 that's cool too.

You love that Round 1 compensation that much, do you? I don't.

We'd be the laughing stock of the NFL world if we felt an extra round 1 draft pick would compensate us for the loss of the best RB in the game right now. And make no mistake about it, Arian Foster is the man right now.

Steve Slaton, since you mentioned him (again), was playing way over his head in his rookie season. I don't buy the argument that his neck injury is what caused his downfall. He was having vision/seam identification problems well before the neck problem occurred. Not since Domanick Davis have we had a consistently good RB like we have in Foster right now. I can name them off if you want me to, it's a very long list of failures at trying to find that franchise-type RB that we now have.

Jonathan Wells, Stacy Mack, Tony Hollings, Ryan Moats, Chris Brown, Ron Dayne, Ahman Green, James Allen, Adimchinobe Echemandu, Samkon Gado, Chris Henry, Wali Lundy, Vernand Morency, Cecil Sapp, Chris Taylor, Darius Walker, Steve Slaton.

18 RBs over roughly an 8-year span and none of them stuck. We have Arian Foster, only a couple of years into his career and we're fine with starting Ben Tate and an older Derrick Ward whom I think is also a FA IIRC? OK.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 12:52 PM
I think you missed me post this on the last page



Yea, how many TDs did Tate have while starting in place of Foster? Here let me tell you, 1, yup thats right, he scored 1 total TD in place of Arian, are you willing to keep that pace up?


That was playing 3 awful defense to open the season in Indy, Miami and New Orleans. He is NOT Arian and never will be. He is a great change of pace back, but thats it.

I didn't miss it, it's just not relevant. As I addressed in other posts, you can get a goal line back for cheap and run Tate between the 10s. That's even assuming you can't work with him to develop into a better player after his (essentially) rookie season.

GP
02-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Why should they bother tagging a restricted FA who they have the right to match offers for ?!


The OP is stiring up sh!t where there aint no need to ....

Because an a-hole GM of some other NFL team could (a) Offer Foster an insane amount of money that (b) we'd then have to match or lose Foster, which would (c) give us draft pick compensation that we might not be able to use for replacing our franchise RB that already have on or roster.

I don't see your point, corrosion. It's a valid discussion.

GP
02-21-2012, 12:59 PM
I didn't miss it, it's just not relevant. As I addressed in other posts, you can get a goal line back for cheap and run Tate between the 10s. That's even assuming you can't work with him to develop into a better player after his (essentially) rookie season.

That takes us back to the old days of Texans running game--Trying to build a single RB out of two semi-decent guys.

I don't see a RB out there who matches the production and talent level, the ability to run, catch, and block for the QB, like Foster can do.

Once we evaluate the Texans offense, in terms of the things I listed--Shaky at the QB spot, shaky AJ, an oft-injured OD, Kevin Walter as your only other WR option--we see that it would be unwise to devalue Foster to the point that we risk losing him, even for Round 1 draft pick compensation.

We have the guy in the bag, don't let him out. Otherwise, you're developing an extra "shaky" position for the 2012 Texans offense. I can deal with the idea of Yates being QB1 for the start of the season if it means he has Foster AND Tate to lean on. Without Foster, the offense becomes instantly predictable and one-dimensional. IMO.

Double Barrel
02-21-2012, 01:03 PM
The Steelers game last year was indicative of the kind of special RB that we have in Arian. Dude made all pro Troy Polamalu look like a rookie on at least three plays, and one was in the backfield!

No system is going to give a RB the skills to know when to cut, know how to juke out all pro defenders, or the natural afterburner ability we see with Foster. He gets into the open field and anything can happen.

Let this guy go and this organization takes a step back, both in terms of talent and public perceptions.

Goatcheese
02-21-2012, 01:21 PM
You love that Round 1 compensation that much, do you? I don't.


We'd be the laughing stock of the NFL world if we felt an extra round 1 draft pick would compensate us for the loss of the best RB in the game right now. And make no mistake about it, Arian Foster is the man right now.

#1 picks are the currency of the realm and much coveted by every GM. On top of the #1 pick we save over $7 million to spend elsewhere.


Steve Slaton, since you mentioned him (again), was playing way over his head in his rookie season. I don't buy the argument that his neck injury is what caused his downfall. He was having vision/seam identification problems well before the neck problem occurred.

Slaton was fine his rookie season and injured in the preseason. Where did he have time to develop a problem with his vision?

Not since Domanick Davis have we had a consistently good RB like we have in Foster right now. I can name them off if you want me to, it's a very long list of failures at trying to find that franchise-type RB that we now have.

Jonathan Wells, Stacy Mack, Tony Hollings, Ryan Moats, Chris Brown, Ron Dayne, Ahman Green, James Allen, Adimchinobe Echemandu, Samkon Gado, Chris Henry, Wali Lundy, Vernand Morency, Cecil Sapp, Chris Taylor, Darius Walker, Steve Slaton.

18 RBs over roughly an 8-year span and none of them stuck. We have Arian Foster, only a couple of years into his career and we're fine with starting Ben Tate and an older Derrick Ward whom I think is also a FA IIRC? OK.

I don't see what is so complicated.

Best case scenario: We keep Foster on the cheap
Worst case scenario: We get a #1, over $7 million in cap space to sign FAs, and have Ben Tate to start.

The Texans win either way. There's no reason to give Foster his big pay day until next year.

That takes us back to the old days of Texans running game--Trying to build a single RB out of two semi-decent guys.

I don't see a RB out there who matches the production and talent level, the ability to run, catch, and block for the QB, like Foster can do.

Once we evaluate the Texans offense, in terms of the things I listed--Shaky at the QB spot, shaky AJ, an oft-injured OD, Kevin Walter as your only other WR option--we see that it would be unwise to devalue Foster to the point that we risk losing him, even for Round 1 draft pick compensation.

We have the guy in the bag, don't let him out. Otherwise, you're developing an extra "shaky" position for the 2012 Texans offense. I can deal with the idea of Yates being QB1 for the start of the season if it means he has Foster AND Tate to lean on. Without Foster, the offense becomes instantly predictable and one-dimensional. IMO.

There's no reason to call Schaub or AJ shaky.

Foster could come out week one of the preseason and suffer a career ending neck injury. You never know.

The smart thing is to play your hand as the situation dictates. Right now the smart play is a high RFA tender since you can't lose no matter how the cards fall.

amazing80
02-21-2012, 01:40 PM
I didn't miss it, it's just not relevant. As I addressed in other posts, you can get a goal line back for cheap and run Tate between the 10s. That's even assuming you can't work with him to develop into a better player after his (essentially) rookie season.

So 13 tds and 1300 yards AVERAGE is not worth keeping? You can GUARANTEE that production from Tate or another first round back?

What about the 600 yards and 2 receiving TDs a year? Can that be replaced FOR SURE TOO?

because if you cannot do either of those 100% guaranteed than losing Foster in ANY FORM is ignorant and not advised......this is not Madden where you can plug in any one you want and control the player, you have elite talent that actually impacts games (unlike Mario) and you are willing to let it go.....un freaking real

Hardcore Texan
02-21-2012, 01:44 PM
2008 Total offense 3rd Points 17th
2009 Total offense 4th Points 10th
2010 Total offense 3rd Points 9th
2011 Total offense 13th Points 10th

I'm not seeing the evidence for your argument.


I completely disagree. He was so good Washington traded the best CB in the NFL for him. Do you see the Jets lining up to hand over Revis? :shades:


An inured Matt Schaub, an injured AJ, Foster misses two games with hamstring, Briesel's broken leg, playing a 3 rd string rookie QB.. etc. Stats don't paint the whole picture. Foster looked special all year long.

We are now a balanced team, the offense doesn't have to be the tops in the NFL to win with this defense. However I still think this offense is consistently top 5 without the injuries.

#1 picks are the currency of the realm and much coveted by every GM. On top of the #1 pick we save over $7 million to spend elsewhere.




Slaton was fine his rookie season and injured in the preseason. Where did he have time to develop a problem with his vision?



I don't see what is so complicated.

Best case scenario: We keep Foster on the cheap
Worst case scenario: We get a #1, over $7 million in cap space to sign FAs, and have Ben Tate to start.

The Texans win either way. There's no reason to give Foster his big pay day until next year.


There's no reason to call Schaub or AJ shaky.

Foster could come out week one of the preseason and suffer a career ending neck injury. You never know.

The smart thing is to play your hand as the situation dictates. Right now the smart play is a high RFA tender since you can't lose no matter how the cards fall.

Yes there is. Next year he will be a UFA, and the choice is all his. But signing him now it shows he's wanted here, and will get paid the money has already EARNED, and will earn next year. It's the right thing to do, and it will keep him happy and keep him here. IMO He will walk next year if he has to play on a one year deal with no guranteed money, players need insurance.

Seņor Stan
02-21-2012, 01:52 PM
What did Kareem Jackson do on that play? :shades:

Doh! 2011.

Still not adjusted to the fact that it is 2012.

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 01:53 PM
Why should they bother tagging a restricted FA who they have the right to match offers for ?!


The OP is stiring up sh!t where there aint no need to ....

Because he's just that important to keep. Playing 2012 for 7.7 million ought to keep him motivated to play this year. The 1st round RFA tender is 2.8 million iirc, in which case I would expect him to hold out. I wouldn't blame him for doing so, he's worth much more than that.

Corrosion
02-21-2012, 02:03 PM
Because he's just that important to keep. Playing 2012 for 7.7 million ought to keep him motivated to play this year. The 1st round RFA tender is 2.8 million iirc, in which case I would expect him to hold out. I wouldn't blame him for doing so, he's worth much more than that.

The use of the tag doesnt give the guy what he wants , along term deal. Which the team said they would give him if he "Did it again" .... He delivered.

If they tag him , he may walk after the season if the team goes back on their word to give him the long term deal .... I think I would.
You can bet on the Texans getting Foster signed to a long term deal without the use of the tag. The tender just gives them insurance against another team trying to sign him. Im sure Foster understands that. Its not a personel decision but a business decision to protect the GM's ass against another team sneaking in.

I can almost guarantee the Texans tender Foster with the highest grade and the intention of working out a long term contract.

GP
02-21-2012, 02:05 PM
#1 picks are the currency of the realm and much coveted by every GM. On top of the #1 pick we save over $7 million to spend elsewhere.




Slaton was fine his rookie season and injured in the preseason. Where did he have time to develop a problem with his vision?



I don't see what is so complicated.

Best case scenario: We keep Foster on the cheap
Worst case scenario: We get a #1, over $7 million in cap space to sign FAs, and have Ben Tate to start.

The Texans win either way. There's no reason to give Foster his big pay day until next year.



There's no reason to call Schaub or AJ shaky.

Foster could come out week one of the preseason and suffer a career ending neck injury. You never know.

The smart thing is to play your hand as the situation dictates. Right now the smart play is a high RFA tender since you can't lose no matter how the cards fall.

There's no reason to call Schaub and AJ "shaky"? Are you serious?

This isn't minor injuries that they're coming back from.

Schaub's is the most severe. You do understand what it looks like, historically, for an NFL player to attempt a genuine comeback from LisFranc injury? It's virtually impossible.

AJ's injury limits him. Forever. And he is a ticking time bomb on that leg. Period. CnD has made it perfectly clear, since CnD's profession involves this sort of thing, that Andre Johnson is up against a tough set of odds to regain his previous abilities AND to maintain his ability to play a season without further damaging other areas of that leg. He's not the same. The day he went down and they tore off one section of his hamstring, he compromised a bit of himself (though he had no other choice except re-attachment and being gone for good in 2011) and he and everybody else knows that it's not the same AJ we knew prior to 2011. From what I understand, he can still attempt to have it re-attached but who knows if he will do so or what the success would be if he did.

Yeah, I think "shaky" is a good term. They're not hot garbage, but they're not going to be the Matt Schaub and Andre Johnson of old. The hero worship of those two guys needs to be properly held into the context of the physical limitations they are now facing. And if Arian Foster had a similar type of injury in 2012, I'd be saying the same thing about him, as well. It is what it is.

Because we have a shaky or unsettled position at QB and WR1, I'm saying you do the deal with Foster now (not next year) because he will be unrestricted in 2013 if we tag him this year.

This means we'd be paying him for one year in 2012 and in 2013 he can choose wherever he wants to go and we don't get the 1st round compensation for him that you would like to get for losing him. In this scenario, we'd have to actually be hoping that we tender him and get a team to bite the bait THIS year so we get the 1st round compensation for losing him this year...otherwise, we're going to tag him and show what he and his agent will deem as disrespect from the Texans FO, he'll play out 2012 like a mad man and go get an unrestricted offer from some other team in 2013...and we get zilch for it. Oh wait, we get Ben Tate and whoever else is platooning the backfield.

The proposition of gaining a 1st round pick for losing him THIS year is the worst possible scenario that could play out. If it reaches that point, then we've already lost. We'll have to replace Foster somehow or just roll with Tate and use the extra 1st rounder on some other position and PRAY it works out for us. Or bundle the two first rounders and move up to select some Top 5 guy in this year's draft, trying to mitigate the odds of busting on that extra 1st round pick we "gained" by losing Foster.

That's not a gambler's odds, IMO. There's few outs with this scenario.

SteveSlaton20
02-21-2012, 02:06 PM
Although this would be the best for us, this would be terrible for Arian. He worked his a** off for this team and led us to our first playoffs berth, and was dominant in the playoffs. He deserves a big contract, but whatever decision we make I hope he doesn't hold out.

GP
02-21-2012, 02:14 PM
If this is an either/or situation between keeping/pleasing Mario or Arian, in other words choosing which guy to build your team around for the next four years, then it's Arian Foster and it's not even a close contest.

Forget all the flowery words from Wade Phillips about Mario and what he "can be" in the 34 defense here. Forget the memories of how Mario beat out RB and VY in the draft and it worked out for us and we have to be loyal to Mario, etc.

What this is about, frankly, is which guy (if both guys need big fat paydays to stay here long-term) needs to stay here the most.

I do not foresee a situation where Texans can pay BOTH guys the big fat contract they understandably are going to desire (correction: that their AGENTS will desire!) and we get to keep other role players like Chris Myers, Neil Rackers, Joel Dreessen, etc.

I don't think it's economically possible to make it happen all in one season. Maybe I am wrong and the money structures by the Texans FO can make it happen, but it seems (to the lay person) like we're between a rock and a hard place. Maybe we're not, but it feels that way right now.

BigBull17
02-21-2012, 02:14 PM
Our 2010 1st rounder could do it.

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/jj-watt-2.gif

Looks like the CB was about to get a pick 6 had Watt not gotten it.

Rey
02-21-2012, 02:32 PM
the steelers game last year was indicative of the kind of special rb that we have in arian. Dude made all pro troy polamalu look like a rookie on at least three plays, and one was in the backfield!

No system is going to give a rb the skills to know when to cut, know how to juke out all pro defenders, or the natural afterburner ability we see with foster. He gets into the open field and anything can happen.

Let this guy go and this organization takes a step back, both in terms of talent and public perceptions.

msr

Corrosion
02-21-2012, 02:32 PM
If this is an either/or situation between keeping/pleasing Mario or Arian, in other words choosing which guy to build your team around for the next four years, then it's Arian Foster and it's not even a close contest.

Forget all the flowery words from Wade Phillips about Mario and what he "can be" in the 34 defense here. Forget the memories of how Mario beat out RB and VY in the draft and it worked out for us and we have to be loyal to Mario, etc.

What this is about, frankly, is which guy (if both guys need big fat paydays to stay here long-term) needs to stay here the most.

I do not foresee a situation where Texans can pay BOTH guys the big fat contract they understandably are going to desire (correction: that their AGENTS will desire!) and we get to keep other role players like Chris Myers, Neil Rackers, Joel Dreessen, etc.

I don't think it's economically possible to make it happen all in one season. Maybe I am wrong and the money structures by the Texans FO can make it happen, but it seems (to the lay person) like we're between a rock and a hard place. Maybe we're not, but it feels that way right now.

I believe the one thing you and many others overlook is that the cap will go up "significantly" in the 2013 & 2014 seasons. Possibly as high as $180m in 2013 & $200m in 2014 .... and that teams must spend at 90% of the cap. Which isnt the case this season - teams can sit on cap space and profit take. Many of the smaller market teams are expected to do just that.

The Texans will be able to push money to those seasons easily , thus allowing them to take care of all their FA's and draft picks ..... and posibly have money remaining to sign "other FA's".

There is no either or between MW and Foster .... Its a matter of structuring contracts which they can do without much trouble at all.

The only kicker is that MW's (or his agent) demand's are just too high , at some point you just have to say ..... thats too much. Where that point is , Im not sure but I could see them giving him a max of $15m per over 6.

My bet is that MW & Foster are both Texans next season and beyond , as are Myers , Dreesen and Briesel - Rackers .... I think is replaced.

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 02:41 PM
The use of the tag doesnt give the guy what he wants , along term deal. Which the team said they would give him if he "Did it again" .... He delivered.

If they tag him , he may walk after the season if the team goes back on their word to give him the long term deal .... I think I would.
You can bet on the Texans getting Foster signed to a long term deal without the use of the tag. The tender just gives them insurance against another team trying to sign him. Im sure Foster understands that. Its not a personel decision but a business decision to protect the GM's ass against another team sneaking in.

I can almost guarantee the Texans tender Foster with the highest grade and the intention of working out a long term contract.

I'd like them to get a long term deal done with Arian, but they only have 3 weeks to do so. The franchise tag can be applied on March 5th if they don't have one by then. That's the only case in which I see them using it, but it buys them time to negotiate more and keeps him focused on the Texans, not 31 other potential suitors. The RFA tag doesn't do that and it could inflate his price, which is why I don't think they should go that route.

Texan_Bill
02-21-2012, 02:45 PM
I'd like them to get a long term deal done with Arian, but they only have 3 weeks to do so. The franchise tag can be applied on March 5th if they don't have one by then. That's the only case in which I see them using it, but it buys them time to negotiate more and keeps him focused on the Texans, not 31 other potential suitors. The RFA tag doesn't do that and it could inflate his price, which is why I don't think they should go that route.

How long term? Running backs have the shortest of all NFL players average career expectancy.

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 02:49 PM
How long term? Running backs have the shortest of all NFL players average career expectancy.

4 or more years starting in 2012, but 4 would be preferable. He's 25 right now, will be 26 at the start of this season. So signing him until he's 29 seems OK with me. The last year or two probably won't be guaranteed anyways, so it's not like they couldn't cut him if they wanted to.

Corrosion
02-21-2012, 03:03 PM
4 or more years starting in 2012, but 4 would be preferable. He's 25 right now, will be 26 at the start of this season. So signing him until he's 29 seems OK with me. The last year or two probably won't be guaranteed anyways, so it's not like they couldn't cut him if they wanted to.

I believe he and his agent will be asking for at least five years .... tho as you say , the latter seasons would likely be only partially or non-guaranteed.

GP
02-21-2012, 03:14 PM
The Steelers game last year was indicative of the kind of special RB that we have in Arian. Dude made all pro Troy Polamalu look like a rookie on at least three plays, and one was in the backfield!

No system is going to give a RB the skills to know when to cut, know how to juke out all pro defenders, or the natural afterburner ability we see with Foster. He gets into the open field and anything can happen.

Let this guy go and this organization takes a step back, both in terms of talent and public perceptions.

I can't believe DB took all of what I told him in a private message and is trying to claim it for himself on here!

I kid, I kid. I forgot about the Steelers game. Another appropriate game to analyze as to why Arian Foster is more than a product of the system.

In general, to everyone here including me:

We get so wrapped up in how easy some of these guys make things look, that we tend to think they had more help than what they did. Yes, the o-line is as good and as efficient as any other in the NFL right now...but the RB has to see the cutback lanes or judge that none exists and then create something on his own (somehow) or just cut losses and fight another day. Even then, he has to have the pure athleticism to beat defenders and make big plays...especially when big plays are needed, and Arian has been as clutch as we consider a guy like AJ to be in those situations.

Steve Slaton, to a degree, was doing that his rookie season but could never replicate it again. Arian Foster was not a 1-year wonder (like Stevie One-Year-Wonder was). Arian put forth back-to-back seasons of solid football. If he isn't locked up long term, either now or sometime throughout the 2012 league year, then it's a mistake.

If the tag is used, I hope it's only a placeholder contract for what the Texans want to do for him a few months down the road. If it's merely to get ducks in a row for the long-term deal, then fine by me. But if they're just going to tag him so they don't have to handle things until February of 2012, then that's not good. That's when a player make notes and raises hell when it's time to do a long-term deal...or chooses to walk no matter what.

Texans FO: Don't be a doosh, get the deal done and move on.

GP
02-21-2012, 03:15 PM
I believe he and his agent will be asking for at least five years .... tho as you say , the latter seasons would likely be only partially or non-guaranteed.

Curious. Why five years?

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 03:33 PM
Curious. Why five years?

Cause $$$$$$

ChampionTexan
02-21-2012, 03:43 PM
Curious. Why five years?

Because DeAngelo Williams got 5, and both Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson got more than 5, Arian's agent will need to make certain that he stays competitive in the unavoidable genital measuring contests with other agents.

That said, it had better be structured that by the end of year three, the only cap ramifications to saying bye bye had better be unamortized signing bonus.

GP
02-21-2012, 03:45 PM
Cause $$$$$$

But do a 4-year deal, and then another 3 or 4 year deal after that one.

He needs to leave himself room to get one final contract, and 5 years right now would potentially limit what he could do after the 5-year deal is up.

Gonna' only get more money as time wears on anyways. A 3 or 4 year deal, now, gets him paid and then another 3 or 4 year deal after THIS one gets him paid again. If he breaks down in year 5 of a 5 year deal, it's over...no chance at a final deal to wrap up his career in the NFL.

That's why I think 3 or 4 years is smarter in the long run.

GP
02-21-2012, 03:46 PM
Because DeAngelo Williams got 5, and both Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson got more than 5, Arian's agent will need to make certain that he stays competitive in the unavoidable genital measuring contests with other agents.

Arian is an unconventional cat, though.

But yeah, I can see what you're saying. I mean, I'm not VISUALIZING what you're saying, but...err, I mean...ummm...well...:mcnugget:

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 04:10 PM
But do a 4-year deal, and then another 3 or 4 year deal after that one.

He needs to leave himself room to get one final contract, and 5 years right now would potentially limit what he could do after the 5-year deal is up.

Gonna' only get more money as time wears on anyways. A 3 or 4 year deal, now, gets him paid and then another 3 or 4 year deal after THIS one gets him paid again. If he breaks down in year 5 of a 5 year deal, it's over...no chance at a final deal to wrap up his career in the NFL.

That's why I think 3 or 4 years is smarter in the long run.

But if he breaks down in year 2, then this is his last deal... Best to get as much as you can now rather than hoping you make it through 3-4 years of battle. A 29 or 30 year old Foster isn't going to be worth as much in free agency as the current 25 year old Foster. He wants to get his big deal this year, and it makes sense.

Corrosion
02-21-2012, 04:17 PM
Arian is an unconventional cat, though.

But yeah, I can see what you're saying. I mean, I'm not VISUALIZING what you're saying, but...err, I mean...ummm...well...:mcnugget:

Arian might be .... different , but I doubt his agent is any different from his peers .... those bastards are allabout the $$$.

TdotTexas2Step
02-21-2012, 04:46 PM
Our zone blocking scheme is one of a kind, and it rightfully got the praise it deserved from media outlets this year, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it can turn any running back into a good one, and any good running back into a great one.

We've seen just as many running backs fail in it, probably even more.

Our scheme fits Foster perfectly and does help him a ton, but he's a special back on his own, I realized that as soon as Schaub went down and AJ had trouble staying in the lineup.

This guy carried us throughout the season, and was fantastic in the playoffs. Our scheme is what it is, but Foster will continue to get better.

Dutchrudder
02-21-2012, 04:50 PM
Relevant to gauging RB value:

According to ESPN's Jamison Hensley, the Ravens don't intend to offer free agent Ray Rice "anything close" to the Adrian Peterson-type contract he is reportedly seeking.
Peterson signed a $96M contract last September and is the highest paid running back in NFL history. While Rice can make a good case that he's the game's second best back, Hensley expects the Ravens to franchise tag him in back-to-back years long before they meet the exorbitant contract demands. Tagging Rice twice would cost Baltimore an estimated $17 million for 2012-2013. Feb 20 - 3:52 PM

http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4645/ray-rice

If Ray Rice gets anywhere near AP money, Foster is going to want a good chunk of change, probably in the 8 mill a year range. The franchise tag for 2012 would be a bargain at that point.

NCTexan
02-21-2012, 04:57 PM
The Raiders traded their 2012 first rounder and a conditional 2nd to the Bengals for Palmer. Had the Raiders made the playoffs (which they came within a hair) and won a playoff game, they would have had to surrender their 1st rounder in 2013 rather than the 2nd rounder.

Who knows if the Raiders will still have that first rounder at the end FA this year!

Yeah, I don't know if they could do it if they had lost that 2013 pick. 2014? I have no idea. Like I said, I was just speculating based on what I managed to find quickly.

PapaL
02-21-2012, 05:06 PM
All this over a rumor by a newer member? Like we don't have a Pay Arian Now thread.

PapaL
02-21-2012, 05:16 PM
Ray Rice wants Peterson type money, 7 years $100M. Is Foster worth that?

Stats wise he's up there with those guys. Age wise, Arian will be 26 when the season starts, Rice 25, Peterson 26.

DX-TEX
02-21-2012, 05:18 PM
Ray Rice wants Peterson type money, 7 years $100M. Is Foster worth that?

Stats wise he's up there with those guys. Age wise, Arian will be 26 when the season starts, Rice 25, Peterson 26.

Even AP isnt worth AP money.

thunderkyss
02-21-2012, 05:22 PM
Even AP isnt worth AP money.

Exactly.

All this is going to do, is prolong the Arian Foster contract talks. Foster & Forte's agents are going to wait until Ray Rice sets the market.

So... what does restricted FA mean? If Arian is offered a deal, we'll have to match or let him walk?

PapaL
02-21-2012, 05:26 PM
Even AP isnt worth AP money.

He was at one point in time. I think it speaks to the shelf life of NFL RBs.
Let's be honest here, how many years came Foster play at this level? 4, 5, 6?

Texan_Bill
02-21-2012, 05:37 PM
He was at one point in time. I think it speaks to the shelf life of NFL RBs.
Let's be honest here, how many years came Foster play at this level? 4, 5, 6?

Most running backs average career shelf life is something like 2.7 years.

Texan_Bill
02-21-2012, 05:39 PM
All this over a rumor by a newer member? Like we don't have a Pay Arian Now thread.

Feeling a little sensitive about a cluttered forum? :kitten:

thunderkyss
02-21-2012, 05:45 PM
Most running backs average career shelf life is something like 2.7 years.

How long has MJD & Steven Jackson been at it?

iLoveTexans
02-21-2012, 06:13 PM
Guys don't forget Tate is good

amazing80
02-21-2012, 06:25 PM
All this over a rumor by a newer member? Like we don't have a Pay Arian Now thread.

Why do people like you feel entitled? Is it because youve been here longer, do you think your post count is the definition of a dedicated poster and fan? If so, you're wrong

DocBar
02-21-2012, 06:31 PM
Why do people like you feel entitled? Is it because youve been here longer, do you think your post count is the definition of a dedicated poster and fan? If so, you're wrongI feel entitled simply because I'm better than you. :sarcasm: again.
As far as AF getting franchised, I think he'd be OK with it considering the Texans cap woes at the moment. AF is a different cat altogether and I just don't see ego taking over. Having said that, I really hope the Texans do this young man right, because he's everything the Texans value in a player. He's humble, VERY productive and doesn't have any off-field issues. His biggest controversy is calling out players who got upset with his hamstring ijnury because of FF. Even that was blown out of proportion by todays 24 hr. news coverage paparrazzi.

kingh99
02-21-2012, 06:56 PM
Love watching Foster run. But seriously. Olandis Gary gained 4 yds per carry for Gary Kubiak. Keep building the O line. Never ever take the O line for granted.

thunderkyss
02-21-2012, 07:17 PM
If anyone was willing to give me a 1 for Foster I would take it and run.

This is the same Denver running scheme with the same Denver coaches who made Clinton Portis look like a hall of fame caliber running back.

Foster is good, but it's the system that makes him great.

I wish we could pull off a Portis for Bailey type trade with some clueless GM that doesn't understand that.

If it were that easy, you & I would be running real NFL franchises.

It takes the right eyes to identify the right back, the right center, the right OL men, the right receivers, TE, etc...

Then it takes the right teachers to instruct, guide, nurture the talent.

Then It takes hundreds of hours to hone the physical skills, the mental calls.

At least with Arian, at least you know you've got the right back. & If you know Kubiak, you know you have a serious pro.

Trent Richardson..... just like all the other draft picks... is a roll of the dice.

JPPT1974
02-21-2012, 07:19 PM
If the Texans lose Arian, that would be a huge blow to the running game and team.

Texan_Bill
02-21-2012, 07:58 PM
Why do people like you feel entitled? Is it because youve been here longer, do you think your post count is the definition of a dedicated poster and fan? If so, you're wrong


No sir, you would be wrong in this case. This is exactly one of the reasons that I don't spend near as much time as I used to.

:hmmm: Because this board wasn't cluttered with newcomers NOT READING OTHER THREADS BEFORE THEY START THEIR OWN??

:thinking:

We like a tidy board. Tidy = (equals) less expensive for those that run the board and those (small percentage) that donate to it...

SAMURAITEXAN
02-21-2012, 07:58 PM
If the Texans lose Arian, that would be a huge blow to the running game and team.

I seriously doubt we lose Arian.

Go Texans!!!

Texan_Bill
02-21-2012, 08:00 PM
If the Texans lose Arian, that would be a huge blow to the running game and team.

No worries, bro! That's not gonna happen. Arian Foster is NOT going anywhere! #FACT!!

*Its okay if Senor Stan calls me out for using a hashtag* :kitten:

amazing80
02-21-2012, 08:15 PM
No sir, you would be wrong in this case. This is exactly one of the reasons that I don't spend near as much time as I used to.

:hmmm: Because this board wasn't cluttered with newcomers NOT READING OTHER THREADS BEFORE THEY START THEIR OWN??

:thinking:

We like a tidy board. Tidy = (equals) less expensive for those that run the board and those (small percentage) that donate to it...

Maybe the mods should step up and merge threads then, its not that hard.....if they dont have enough mods than ask some to help


And again, don't lump all noobs into this category because its a stereotype and unnecessary

Not to mention all of you were new at one time, it took a lot of error and trial before you all realized how to run a successful board so don't sit on your high horse and pretend to be better than the new comers

drs23
02-21-2012, 08:16 PM
How long has MJD & Steven Jackson been at it?

Going out on a limb here but I swear I've watched MJD stuff it down our throats (when we knew it was coming!) for more than 2.7 years. But then my memory might be cloudy. :D

PapaL
02-21-2012, 08:21 PM
Why do people like you feel entitled? Is it because youve been here longer, do you think your post count is the definition of a dedicated poster and fan? If so, you're wrong

Because it's the same damn thread as the other one. If you're new, shut up, sit back, and learn how things are done. Maybe everyone should just start their own thread on the same subject. Hey guys, I was at the gas station and some random guy said we might tag Foster...lemme go make a thread. Oh what, we're gonna tag Mario now? I'm gonna make a thread because I'm smarter, more handsome, and more important than everyone else.

Why are you so butthurt about this? Did I say anything to you? Mind yours. I said nothing about post counts so you sir/ma'am can go kick rocks.

-Entitled Rant

PapaL
02-21-2012, 08:24 PM
Going out on a limb here but I swear I've watched MJD stuff it down our throats (when we knew it was coming!) for more than 2.7 years. But then my memory might be cloudy. :D

This sounds a lot better/cleaner in my head but...lots of people were giving us the business over those years lol.

DocBar
02-21-2012, 08:25 PM
someone rep TK for me. PLEASE!!!!

infantrycak
02-21-2012, 08:32 PM
It really isn't a difficult request that people look for similar threads before creating new ones. Generally we do merge them but why make us do it if a quick scroll will reveal the existing thread? We tend not to merge them if they get too developed before we see them and it would confuse the conversations. Just help out with keeping the house clean.

NCTexan
02-21-2012, 08:33 PM
someone rep TK for me. PLEASE!!!!

Got him.

whitewater
02-21-2012, 09:59 PM
No! Don't do it! Somebody would surely sign him in spite of the tag. What would they have to give up? A 1st and a 3rd? He's worth more than that. Sign him long term. He will be easy to negotiate with.

Franchise tags just make players mad. They tagged Dunta Robinson and only kept him 1 year. We don't want Foster mad at this franchise.

Corrosion
02-21-2012, 10:19 PM
No! Don't do it! Somebody would surely sign him in spite of the tag. What would they have to give up? A 1st and a 3rd? He's worth more than that. Sign him long term. He will be easy to negotiate with.

Franchise tags just make players mad. They tagged Dunta Robinson and only kept him 1 year. We don't want Foster mad at this franchise.

The "Tender" gives the Texans two things - the right to match should they want to .... should they decline a first round pick as compensation (Under the old CBA it was a 1 & 3).

The "franchise tag" basically locks Foster in for one year .... no other team can sign him.


Under either scenario they would be able to negotiate a long term deal .... Players dont like the franchise tag because they play a single year at a high salary but risk injury or .... lack of production reducing their value.(cant say I blame them)

I expect the Texans to tender Foster with the highest tender and work out a 4-6 year deal with him in the mean time.

Shaft75
02-21-2012, 10:57 PM
You always give the big conract to that diamond in the rough player that played for scraps for 3 years at a high level of play, and a low level of bitching and moaning because of his contract. I say get him locked up, consider the amounts you paid him before this new deal and revel in the fact that you didn't have to burn a draft pick for beastmode production thus far.

Kubiak's brought out the best in him, and we need guys like that to be the faces of our team.

Corrosion
02-22-2012, 01:26 AM
http://www.chron.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=1173216&width=628&height=471



:user:

fiasco west
02-22-2012, 02:14 AM
He was at one point in time. I think it speaks to the shelf life of NFL RBs.
Let's be honest here, how many years came Foster play at this level? 4, 5, 6?

The average NFL RB sure. But the better...elite backs are doing this for a while.

I think Foster is a elite back and I think for anyone worrying about the shelf life of Foster...I think you can't worry about a injury history for a player that hasn't really had one outside of sprains and pulls and nicks and bruises.

ObsiWan
02-22-2012, 02:29 AM
Going out on a limb here but I swear I've watched MJD stuff it down our throats (when we knew it was coming!) for more than 2.7 years. But then my memory might be cloudy. :D

MJD was a 2nd round pick in 2006.... he has a 1000 yds/season average over his career

Blake
02-22-2012, 07:37 AM
Now back to your regularly scheduled Arian Foster debate.

Watch this video and I guarantee you will want to personally send Bob McNair a check to help him pay to sign Arian Foster to a muti-year contract extension.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d826123f4/2011-Best-of-Arian-Foster

Texan_Bill
02-22-2012, 07:49 AM
Now back to your regularly scheduled Arian Foster debate.

Watch this video and I guarantee you will want to personally send Bob McNair a check to help him pay to sign Arian Foster to a muti-year contract extension.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d826123f4/2011-Best-of-Arian-Foster

Regurlarly scheduled?? Which of the 14 threads would you be talking about?? :shades:

********

Seriously though, watching that video just reminded me how special Arian Foster is. Ben Tate is a nice back, but he's not nearly as natural or fluid in this offense that Arian is.

Blake
02-22-2012, 08:00 AM
Regurlarly scheduled?? Which of the 14 threads would you be talking about?? :shades:

********

Seriously though, watching that video just reminded me how special Arian Foster is. Ben Tate is a nice back, but he's not nearly as natural or fluid in this offense that Arian is.

I must have missed it. Apparently we are getting alot of Arian threads recently??

Seņor Stan
02-22-2012, 08:01 AM
Regurlarly scheduled?? Which of the 14 threads would you be talking about?? :shades:

********

Seriously though, watching that video just reminded me how special Arian Foster is. Ben Tate is a nice back, but he's not nearly as natural or fluid in this offense that Arian is.

They didn't even show my favorite play of the year...what should have been a TFL inside their own 5 turned into a huge gain because of #23...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm8dJF7CpY