PDA

View Full Version : The importance of Arian Foster


gtexan02
01-09-2012, 03:47 PM
When talking about whether or not we should sign Arian to a major long term deal, I think there are a lot of things to consider. Heres my list of reasons to pay him the big money:

1. He's only 25 years old and has only had premier back attempts for 2 seasons. He's got a lot of time left in this league

2. He accounted for 1840+ yards and 12 TDs this year in 13 games.
Thats almost 40% of our offense (372 ypg) and 1 TD per game.

3. Despite some trouble with ball security, he only turned the ball over 3 times this year. Tate had the same in many fewer carries.

4. If its a matter of money, I personally think he is more important to our team that Mario Williams, and should cost substantially less to sign

5. And finally, I think Arian is one of those guys that really serves as a face of the franchise. Despite AJ being our best and most likeable character, he isn't made for the spotlight like Foster is. Whether its from fantasy football his personal style, his personality, or whatever, Foster has that cool factor that gets national attention. He's great in interviews and I think he represents our team really well.

After what I thought was a really, really, really solid performance against the Bengals, I think Foster is a guy we want on our team long term. I'm hoping the Texans keep him around as long as possible

Playoffs
01-09-2012, 03:54 PM
I don't think there's any doubt Mr. McNair will open the coffers for Arian -- outside of media pot-stirrers.

Seasick Sailor
01-09-2012, 03:55 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Pay the man his money.

Daravenator
01-09-2012, 04:01 PM
Foster will get the $$$$ from the Texans same as Rice will get the $$$$ from the Ravens. They say RB's aren't as important as they used to be in the "Age of Passing", and yet what else chews up the clock and controls a game?

TdotTexas2Step
01-09-2012, 04:05 PM
There are going to be some people here who lean towards the "You never open your wallets for running backs."

But I don't think there's a single back out in the league right now, both first or second string, that is a better fit for our zone blocking scheme than Foster.

It's simple. Pay this man. Get another receiver. And use the draft to make defense even better.

Hardcore Texan
01-09-2012, 04:09 PM
When talking about whether or not we should sign Arian to a major long term deal, I think there are a lot of things to consider. Heres my list of reasons to pay him the big money:

1. He's only 25 years old and has only had premier back attempts for 2 seasons. He's got a lot of time left in this league

2. He accounted for 1840+ yards and 12 TDs this year in 13 games.
Thats almost 40% of our offense (372 ypg) and 1 TD per game.

3. Despite some trouble with ball security, he only turned the ball over 3 times this year. Tate had the same in many fewer carries.

4. If its a matter of money, I personally think he is more important to our team that Mario Williams, and should cost substantially less to sign

5. And finally, I think Arian is one of those guys that really serves as a face of the franchise. Despite AJ being our best and most likeable character, he isn't made for the spotlight like Foster is. Whether its from fantasy football his personal style, his personality, or whatever, Foster has that cool factor that gets national attention. He's great in interviews and I think he represents our team really well.

After what I thought was a really, really, really solid performance against the Bengals, I think Foster is a guy we want on our team long term. I'm hoping the Texans keep him around as long as possible

I agree all the way around. He is very valuable to this offense, he's one of a kind player for this scheme. You don't run across RB's like Arian Foster very often. Lock him up now, he's got a lot of good years left in him.

NastyNate
01-09-2012, 04:26 PM
He accounted for 53% of our yards on Saturday and 14 points (12 actually, but let's be realistic here). What is Arian's worth and how long do we sign him? 5 years for 41 million is about where I see it with 20 guaranteed. He consistently makes plays out of nothing and is an excellent pass blocker and catcher.

PAY THAT MAN!!!

LikeMike
01-09-2012, 04:26 PM
Arian played for a bargain for the past two years and never complained. There is no alternative to paying him to a longterm contract with big bucks now. And he should have at least 4-5 good years left in him so it really is a no brainer if you ask me.

EllisUnit
01-09-2012, 04:31 PM
Arian played for a bargain for the past two years and never complained. There is no alternative to paying him to a longterm contract with big bucks now. And he should have at least 4-5 good years left in him so it really is a no brainer if you ask me.

the way the guy avoids taking big hits he could easily have 6-8 good years left in him, easily.

Marcus
01-09-2012, 04:33 PM
I fully understand the desire to to pay Arian the big bucks.

I just wish that I had more confidence that he would stay inspired to continue to play at a high level after getting the big bucks.

There is a certain running back that plays for the Titans that gives me pause.

EllisUnit
01-09-2012, 04:38 PM
I fully understand the desire to to pay Arian the big bucks.

I just wish that I had more confidence that he would stay inspired to continue to play at a high level after getting the big bucks.

There is a certain running back that plays for the Titans that gives me pause.

CJs attitude before he got paid and fosters before he gets paid are 100% different. I dont think foster would hold out for a big contract like CJ did.

LikeMike
01-09-2012, 04:40 PM
I fully understand the desire to to pay Arian the big bucks.

I just wish that I had more confidence that he would stay inspired to continue to play at a high level after getting the big bucks.

There is a certain running back that plays for the Titans that gives me pause.

Arian is a very special character... not always in a good way (though I like his alternative views), but definetly not someone who is content to sit on his butt and getting paid. Like I said, he never complained about his contract, that certain someone in Tennessee held out all training camp whining about his contract. I am pretty sure, money won`t make Arian fat and lazy...

eriadoc
01-09-2012, 04:44 PM
You don't open the wallet for a mere running back. Arian Foster is no mere running back.

Joeycharp89
01-09-2012, 04:46 PM
He's one of the reasons I got turned back on to the Texans last season. He's a hard working guy, with a great story of how he got to this team. He hardly complains, never puts blame on others, and it is evident that he always puts his best effort forward, even when he has a poor game.

I'd love to see Arian spend at least the majority of his hopefully long career in Houston.

Marcus
01-09-2012, 04:47 PM
CJs attitude before he got paid and fosters before he gets paid are 100% different. I dont think foster would hold out for a big contract like CJ did.

Arian is a very special character... not always in a good way (though I like his alternative views), but definetly not someone who is content to sit on his butt and getting paid. Like I said, he never complained about his contract, that certain someone in Tennessee held out all training camp whining about his contract. I am pretty sure, money won`t make Arian fat and lazy...

I hope both of you are right. But I think it would be wise for Rick Smith to keep that certain RB in Tennessee in mind when structuring Arian's big money contract.

And I don't think it should be an either/or situation when it comes to Arian or Mario. The idea that Mario is expendable, to me, is just ludicrous.

Joeycharp89
01-09-2012, 04:58 PM
And I don't think it should be an either/or situation when it comes to Arian or Mario. The idea that Mario is expendable, to me, is just ludicrous.

It is odd that this Mario being expendable thing was brought up again. But if we *had* to choose (and I don't think we do) would you prefer to have Arian or Mario? Mario is a great, but even without him we have pretty good depth at linebacker and defensive lineman. At running back we have Tate and Ward, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on Ward for much longer, and Tate seems to have at least some drop off from Foster.

mussop
01-09-2012, 05:14 PM
Remember we are Denver south and they did trade away one of the best and most productive backs in the league in Clinton Portis. And we have a very very good backup already in place that could start on most teams. Just sayin!

It's in our (Denver's) history so you have to wonder if maybe they might be thinking About what kind of value they could get for him in a trade. Would they sign him and trade him if it meant getting a top 2 or 3 player at a position like CB? Would you? I love Foster but he does have a problem holding on to the ball and Smithiak has proven they are more than capable of building a top rated offense with late round guys.

I know everyone is seeing rainbows and butterflies right now but what if next week Foster fumbles late and it cost us the game? Would that change your minds? (Break that curse in the name of Jesus) just playing devils advocate here so don't crazy on me.

I do think discussing what we could get in return for Foster is a legit conversation that shouldn't be ridiculed. However I do hope we hang on to him.

Doppelganger
01-09-2012, 05:28 PM
Sign him to a cap friendly deal that pays him a low salary and a high signing bonus. That's the way you manipulate the cap. Since cap is only affected by base salary, pay him a salary of say 1 mill per year over 5 years and give him a signing bonus of say 20 mill. Spread the 20 mill this way.
Year 1: 6 mill
Year 2: 7 mill
Year 3: 4 mill
Year 4: 2 mill
Year 5: 1 mill

Throw out some big incentive bases he won't get to and make it a 20 mill guaranteed contract and I think he would be very happy with it.

And for the record, i would do a similar deal with Mario: low salary, high signing bonus.

EllisUnit
01-09-2012, 05:30 PM
Remember we are Denver south and they did trade away one of the best and most productive backs in the league in Clinton Portis. And we have a very very good backup already in place that could start on most teams. Just sayin!

It's in our (Denver's) history so you have to wonder if maybe they might be thinking About what kind of value they could get for him in a trade. Would they sign him and trade him if it meant getting a top 2 or 3 player at a position like CB? Would you? I love Foster but he does have a problem holding on to the ball and Smithiak has proven they are more than capable of building a top rated offense with late round guys.

I know everyone is seeing rainbows and butterflies right now but what if next week Foster fumbles late and it cost us the game? Would that change your minds? (Break that curse in the name of Jesus) just playing devils advocate here so don't crazy on me.

I do think discussing what we could get in return for Foster is a legit conversation that shouldn't be ridiculed. However I do hope we hang on to him.

If KJ gave up a game winning TD on the last play of the game with us winning by 3, would that change your mind about him ??? Prob not, Foster has fumbled 3 times in the regular season (same as Tate), and regardless of what he did the first play of the game last week he didnt give the ball away.

mussop
01-09-2012, 06:19 PM
If KJ gave up a game winning TD on the last play of the game with us winning by 3, would that change your mind about him ??? Prob not, Foster has fumbled 3 times in the regular season (same as Tate), and regardless of what he did the first play of the game last week he didnt give the ball away.


I think you mean JJ not KJ right? And Foster fumbled twice in the cinci game. He also fumbled four weeks in a row to end the season IIRC. He was incredibly lucky to catch that first one. That could of changed the whole game.

I think you missed the whole point of my post Again I hope we bring him back but no one should be opposed to discussing a what if scenario if there is precedence. There is!

Kthx
01-09-2012, 06:26 PM
I fully understand the desire to to pay Arian the big bucks.

I just wish that I had more confidence that he would stay inspired to continue to play at a high level after getting the big bucks.

There is a certain running back that plays for the Titans that gives me pause.

"Foster's subpar senior campaign caused his draft stock to plummet, as well as scouts' concerns about his below-average pass-blocking, issues with ball security and the less-than-stellar reviews from Tennessee staff members that portrayed him as selfish and hard to coach" - Wikipedia

I think Foster has already gone through his im better than everyone stage and is just happy to play football now.

TdotTexas2Step
01-09-2012, 06:31 PM
I think you mean JJ not KJ right? And Foster fumbled twice in the cinci game. He also fumbled four weeks in a row to end the season IIRC. He was incredibly lucky to catch that first one. That could of changed the whole game.

I think you missed the whole point of my post Again I hope we bring him back but no one should be opposed to discussing a what if scenario if there is precedence. There is!

The precedent you used in your example involved Portis being traded a future hall of famer in his prime in Champ Bailey and a second round draft pick.

If we got someone like Revis or Asomugha back in a trade for Foster, then I'd be cool with it.

Other than that (or something similar in value), you hold on to him.

infantrycak
01-09-2012, 06:33 PM
Sign him to a cap friendly deal that pays him a low salary and a high signing bonus. That's the way you manipulate the cap. Since cap is only affected by base salary, pay him a salary of say 1 mill per year over 5 years and give him a signing bonus of say 20 mill. Spread the 20 mill this way.
Year 1: 6 mill
Year 2: 7 mill
Year 3: 4 mill
Year 4: 2 mill
Year 5: 1 mill

Throw out some big incentive bases he won't get to and make it a 20 mill guaranteed contract and I think he would be very happy with it.

And for the record, i would do a similar deal with Mario: low salary, high signing bonus.

The cap includes bonuses. Signing bonuses are prorated over the life of the contract. Roster bonuses all count in the year they are paid.

kingh99
01-09-2012, 06:34 PM
I fully understand the desire to to pay Arian the big bucks.

I just wish that I had more confidence that he would stay inspired to continue to play at a high level after getting the big bucks.

There is a certain running back that plays for the Titans that gives me pause.

This. But imagine how much the rest of the league hates a bald faced jake. It kills their leverage. It's hard to want to go out and get pummeled ever week. Real hard. Sitting down and running the numbers like CJ has no doubt done definitely impacted his motivation. He sees he really doesn't have to ever put on the cleats again and will still not have a to work a day of the remainder of his life. Some guys see that as the goal. Can't say I entirely blame them. Vet RB is a very tricky sign.

kingh99
01-09-2012, 06:37 PM
Arian Foster is a pleasure to watch run. So fluid yet powerful. They need to help him out and let Ward and Tate run the up the gut plays. I know it doesn't work like that but it would be great if he was like the Mercury Morris runner. Need a Csonka and third all purpose guy like Jim Kiick with the Fins. But yeah, get a plodder to wear down the D and us Foster on the edges. who knows.

TheMatrix31
01-09-2012, 06:43 PM
Since Foster is Terrell Davis version 2.0, I'd have to pay him.

I'm worried about his propensity to be a philosophy douche and therefore scared about him Ricky Williams-ing us, and of course the shelf life for RBs, but......his production and ability is way too much to ignore.

Gotta keep him.

burro
01-09-2012, 06:46 PM
It would be the worst FO office decision of 2012 if we failed to give Foster the contract he's earned. Mario Williams is a damn fine player, but in a year like this we have to prioritize and if it's between Foster and Mario then I think it's a no brainer.

Pay him, Rick!!!

EllisUnit
01-09-2012, 06:48 PM
i guess noone saw what he did in our first play off win. :truck:

infantrycak
01-09-2012, 06:55 PM
Folks, at a minimum he will make approximately $3 mil in 2012 as a high tendered RFA. That is hardly chump change.

Texan_Bill
01-09-2012, 06:59 PM
Foster will get the $$$$ from the Texans same as Rice will get the $$$$ from the Ravens. They say RB's aren't as important as they used to be in the "Age of Passing", and yet what else chews up the clock and controls a game?

Just as long as the Ravens nor the Texans pull a Tinnbred move. RB's nowadays they're just not worth that much money.

PS. Matt Forte can be thrown into Rice and Foster's case.

Kthx
01-09-2012, 08:12 PM
RB's aren't worth that much for some teams but considering our situation I would say Foster is one of the most valuable players on our team. And when we beat the Ravens and end up playing a high powered offensive team with an elite QB the time spent extending a drive with our running game is time where the other QB is off the field not scoring on us. I doubt our front office doesn't recognize the huge contribution our running game is for this team.

mussop
01-09-2012, 10:56 PM
The precedent you used in your example involved Portis being traded a future hall of famer in his prime in Champ Bailey and a second round draft pick.

If we got someone like Revis or Asomugha back in a trade for Foster, then I'd be cool with it.

Other than that (or something similar in value), you hold on to him.

Absolutely! What if the jets offered us Reevis and a second round pick? I think I would have to part ways with mr Foster. What about Asomughu (sp?) and a second? Foster is incredible but every option should be explored.

CretorFrigg
01-09-2012, 11:03 PM
Remember the Ron Dayne days? Oh, how we've progressed since then.

Texansfan2105
01-09-2012, 11:04 PM
Foster will get the $$$$ from the Texans same as Rice will get the $$$$ from the Ravens. They say RB's aren't as important as they used to be in the "Age of Passing", and yet what else chews up the clock and controls a game?

true that

fiasco west
01-10-2012, 04:13 AM
I think Arian is a special player. I understand the scare that he'll get his money and lose motivation but really you can say that for a lot of guys. You really never know until you try.

Mr teX
01-10-2012, 05:36 AM
So, the real question is who's arguing that he's not important & shouldn't get paid?

GlassHalfFull
01-10-2012, 05:59 AM
So, the real question is who's arguing that he's not important & shouldn't get paid?

Pretty much nobody. Amazing, a thread where almost all of us agree.

Pay the man, Rick.

Although I would like to point out that posters still flashing the "Anyone but Kubiak 2012" sig look pretty foolish right now, IMHO.

drs23
01-10-2012, 09:51 AM
Pretty much nobody. Amazing, a thread where almost all of us agree.

Pay the man, Rick.

Although I would like to point out that posters still flashing the "Anyone but Kubiak 2012" sig look pretty foolish right now, IMHO.

I was thinking exactly the same thing Katie. :D

mussop
01-10-2012, 11:19 AM
Pretty much nobody. Amazing, a thread where almost all of us agree.

Pay the man, Rick.

Although I would like to point out that posters still flashing the "Anyone but Kubiak 2012" sig look pretty foolish right now, IMHO.

I have to admit that after the Cinci game I'm starting to believe Kubiak may have turned the corner. The key words there being MAY HAVE. It was really nice to see bumbling screwups contribute to the other team the loosing in a big game for once. I do still wonder if all this success would of happened had McNair not made him fire his buddies and hire Wade Phillips though.

When I find myself saying I want the head coach to stay as long as the DC stays it still makes me wonder how good of a head coach he really is. Not to mention I'm superstitious and to change it now would mean certain exit from the playoffs.

El Tejano
01-10-2012, 11:55 AM
Pay'em all. We developed our own depth this season, don't need to sign any FA except for maybe a receiver. LOL!

Double Barrel
01-10-2012, 12:04 PM
I fully understand the desire to to pay Arian the big bucks.

I just wish that I had more confidence that he would stay inspired to continue to play at a high level after getting the big bucks.

There is a certain running back that plays for the Titans that gives me pause.

It's a valid concern, but that goes for any player that you sign to a big contract, not just RBs.

I think Kubiak & Smith will have to evaluate Foster's personality as it relates to long term dedication in order to try to figure that one out.

As a fan, I can easily say pay the man. He's a proven commodity, and my own take is that his undrafted status will always be a motivating factor in his drive to be the best RB that he can be. Plus, this team is filled with high character guys, and that has a tendency to elevate the mentality of everyone.

Arian said in an interview that Andre Johnson had taken him under his wing to mentor him during his rookie season. I believe having AJ as a friend and leader is something that give him expectations to live up to in the end.

Daravenator
01-10-2012, 12:43 PM
Just as long as the Ravens nor the Texans pull a Tinnbred move. RB's nowadays they're just not worth that much money.

PS. Matt Forte can be thrown into Rice and Foster's case.

It depends on the RB. In Rice's case, he led the NFL in yards from scrimmage. He is a great rusher, a great receiver from out of the backfield, has excellent hands and hardly ever loses the ball. He is worth big $$$.

I am much more familiar with Rice than I am Foster. But if he's comparable, then he's worth the money.

Say Watt
01-10-2012, 04:53 PM
Foster is the best running back in the NFL. What he did this season in only 12? games was remarkable. The guy is incredible and so much fun to watch. Pay him Rick!

Dutchrudder
01-10-2012, 05:14 PM
It depends on the RB. In Rice's case, he led the NFL in yards from scrimmage. He is a great rusher, a great receiver from out of the backfield, has excellent hands and hardly ever loses the ball. He is worth big $$$.

I am much more familiar with Rice than I am Foster. But if he's comparable, then he's worth the money.

Here's a good video of his 2010 highlights if you want to see more of Foster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu9bEAR_8pA

It really makes me miss Vonta Leach :( Neither Casey nor Vickers is anywhere close to as good of a lead blocker as Vonta.

Foster is the best RB in the NFL when it comes to cutting back to hit a hole that the O-line opens up. His vision is excellent and he usually finds the hole to drive through. Once he's in the open field, he is as elusive as anyone else and consistently jukes or spins away from solo tacklers. He can pass protect, he can catch on the run, he often turns 5 yard dumpoffs into 20+ yard gains, he does it all. He's the perfect fit for the Texans, and we need to retain him for the future.

BlueSteel
01-11-2012, 09:36 AM
I know everyone is seeing rainbows and butterflies right now but what if next week Foster fumbles late and it cost us the game? Would that change your minds? (Break that curse in the name of Jesus) just playing devils advocate here so don't crazy on me.

I won't get crazy, but I do not see how the past two years of work that Foster has put on the field will be lost on a single fumble. I also do not view Foster as a player with fumbling issues. He had that label when we signed him and Tennessee fans seemed to have nothing good to say about him.

Slaton on the other hand... He was a fumble waiting to happen each and every game.

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 09:52 AM
I fully understand the desire to to pay Arian the big bucks.

I just wish that I had more confidence that he would stay inspired to continue to play at a high level after getting the big bucks.

There is a certain running back that plays for the Titans that gives me pause.

To continue off of your point,

How do you think that the Panthers feel about paying Williams all of that cash?? What about the Chiefs when they paid Larry Johnson big bucks? Man, I could list examples all over the place from teams that felt remorse after paying crazy money to a RB.

Also, look at all of the SB teams from the last decade until now?? How many of them had a top 3 RB in the league?? The last one that did was Marshal Faulk on the Rams who also happened to have the best passing game in the league with Holt and Bruce who are arguably both HOF WR's.

I love Foster, and I want him resigned, but not at the kind of money that CJ or Williams got. RB's aren't worth that kind of money in the NFL, and in this day and age in the NFL, heavily investing into RB's isn't what WINS SB's.

Marcus
01-11-2012, 10:25 AM
To continue off of your point,

How do you think that the Panthers feel about paying Williams all of that cash?? What about the Chiefs when they paid Larry Johnson big bucks? Man, I could list examples all over the place from teams that felt remorse after paying crazy money to a RB.

Also, look at all of the SB teams from the last decade until now?? How many of them had a top 3 RB in the league?? The last one that did was Marshal Faulk on the Rams who also happened to have the best passing game in the league with Holt and Bruce who are arguably both HOF WR's.

I love Foster, and I want him resigned, but not at the kind of money that CJ or Williams got. RB's aren't worth that kind of money in the NFL, and in this day and age in the NFL, heavily investing into RB's isn't what WINS SB's.

Yep, that's what has me concerned, those 'examples all over the place from teams that felt remorse after paying crazy money to a RB'.

I just wish I could think of an example of a RB that didn't end up making people regret they paid him big money. Right now I can't think of one, and that bothers me.

Arian basically has the team over a barrel. They've got no choice but to pay him, based on past performance alone. If they don't, his agent will hold him out, and it will stir up a bunch of negative feelings.

The best we can hope for, is that he (his agent) will agree to a highly incentive-based contract, and if he balks, cite all those examples of RBs getting paid the big bucks and lose their incentive.

I love watching him run, and I think he's the best RB in the NFL today, but I don't have the confidence that he will continue to be.

Say Watt
01-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Can someone help me understand something? I am listening to 790 and Sean Jones and Lance Z are talking about Arian. Both are pretty much in agreement that Arian would only be good in a zone blocking scheme. Sean Jones also made the argument that there is a reason why he was undrafted. But if that is the case, shouldn't there have been a reason why Tom Brady was a late round pick (essentially undrafted) or what about Marques Colston (7th round pick which is essentially undrafted)? Are those guys only good because of the teams that they play on? Or can we assume they would probably play well anywhere?

So why does Arian get such disrespect? Sure, he ran a slow 40 time. So what. Watch him on the field. The guy has FOOTBALL SPEED. He is as quick as just about any RB in the NFL. He also has some of the best moves of any RB in the league. His jukes are out of this world, and I watched a Sports Science episode on Arian that said the force on his jukes is better than any player they have ever measured. He also has amazing vision, exceptional balance, and is as elusive as you can get with the way he dodges hits and keeps from receiving too much punishment on his body.

So what's the deal? Why so much disrespect for Arian? I could understand people saying this after last year but now that he has dominated two seasons in a row, where is the respect?

dream_team
01-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Here's a good video of his 2010 highlights if you want to see more of Foster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu9bEAR_8pA

It really makes me miss Vonta Leach :( Neither Casey nor Vickers is anywhere close to as good of a lead blocker as Vonta.

Foster is the best RB in the NFL when it comes to cutting back to hit a hole that the O-line opens up. His vision is excellent and he usually finds the hole to drive through. Once he's in the open field, he is as elusive as anyone else and consistently jukes or spins away from solo tacklers. He can pass protect, he can catch on the run, he often turns 5 yard dumpoffs into 20+ yard gains, he does it all. He's the perfect fit for the Texans, and we need to retain him for the future.

I thought I was the only one. Watching Vickers & Casey lead block makes me appreciate how good Leach was. Not only that, Leach has better hands than Vickers. Casey is an awesome receiver, but we don't take advantage of him enough as a receiver to have a mediocre blocker at FB.

dream_team
01-11-2012, 10:43 AM
There isn't a doubt in my mind McNair is going to pay Foster! I'm talking top 3 RB money (not sure about the feasibility with the cap).

After last season, Foster could have easily held out for a new contract... that's what majority of NFL players would do in his situation. But no, he didn't complain one bit, didn't even give a hint or threat of a holdout... he honored his contract and played. That says alot about what kind of person he is. To encourage that type of behavior, McNair should give him what he deserves.

I really hope we keep the duo of Foster & Tate for a long time. Having both guys around will prolong the careers of both players... but I'm sure Tate, when a FA, will look around for his own starting gig.

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 11:14 AM
Yep, that's what has me concerned, those 'examples all over the place from teams that felt remorse after paying crazy money to a RB'.

I just wish I could think of an example of a RB that didn't end up making people regret they paid him big money. Right now I can't think of one, and that bothers me.

Arian basically has the team over a barrel. They've got no choice but to pay him, based on past performance alone. If they don't, his agent will hold him out, and it will stir up a bunch of negative feelings.

The best we can hope for, is that he (his agent) will agree to a highly incentive-based contract, and if he balks, cite all those examples of RBs getting paid the big bucks and lose their incentive.

I love watching him run, and I think he's the best RB in the NFL today, but I don't have the confidence that he will continue to be.

People are in love with him because he's playing great here and they have "emotion" involved. He twitters, he sells wrist bands, and has a nice smile. Statistics, facts, and history regarding RB's be damned. I won't say that resigning him would be an automatic mistake or anything or that it wouldn't possibly end up being a great decision down the road in hind sight, but boy do people forget about what happened to our own player in "Domanick Davis." One play or series of plays pretty much ended his career and DD was right about the same age as Foster.

But, I've learned over the years that investing in your O line and D line is a lot more important than investing into any RB. I've seen to many teams win big from year to year without having an elite RB that is being paid crazy money. I've also seen teams with great running games that had two or three RB's in some cases carry the load and have one of the best running attacks in the league. Ward can tell you all about that when he played on the Giants.

And people seem to forget that we've got a guy on this roster named Ben Tate. His YPC average is over 5 yards if I'm not mistaken in only his first season. The Texans could find another back for the ZBS and have him on the cheap. The fact is that great RB's aren't that hard to find and average to good RB's can be very productive under a great O line and system. Great defensive players that play positions like DE, DT, S, and CB are damn hard to find. The bust rate is pretty high at those positions, and when you can find guys at those positions that can really bring it, that's what your money is worth in my opinion. That's exactly why Kubiak picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush.

I'd really like to resign Foster, but there has to be some sort of cut off point at the RB position. Simply matching the status quo of what other backs got that got way over paid for what their position merits is playing into the NFL agent's game of getting their clients over paid.

Say Watt
01-11-2012, 11:36 AM
People are in love with him because he's playing great here and they have "emotion" involved. He twitters, he sells wrist bands, and has a nice smile. Statistics, facts, and history regarding RB's be damned. I won't say that resigning him would be an automatic mistake or anything or that it wouldn't possibly end up being a great decision down the road in hind sight, but boy do people forget about what happened to our own player in "Domanick Davis." One play or series of plays pretty much ended his career and DD was right about the same age as Foster.

But, I've learned over the years that investing in your O line and D line is a lot more important than investing into any RB. I've seen to many teams win big from year to year without having an elite RB that is being paid crazy money. I've also seen teams with great running games that had two or three RB's in some cases carry the load and have one of the best running attacks in the league. Ward can tell you all about that when he played on the Giants.

And people seem to forget that we've got a guy on this roster named Ben Tate. His YPC average is over 5 yards if I'm not mistaken in only his first season. The Texans could find another back for the ZBS and have him on the cheap. The fact is that great RB's aren't that hard to find and average to good RB's can be very productive under a great O line and system. Great defensive players that play positions like DE, DT, S, and CB are damn hard to find. The bust rate is pretty high at those positions, and when you can find guys at those positions that can really bring it, that's what your money is worth in my opinion. That's exactly why Kubiak picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush.

I'd really like to resign Foster, but there has to be some sort of cut off point at the RB position. Simply matching the status quo of what other backs got that got way over paid for what their position merits is playing into the NFL agent's game of getting their clients over paid.

Did you not watch Tate in this last game?!? He looked pretty bad. Thinking Tate can replace everything Foster does is nuts.

Alright fine, we have some bad signings with older guys like Larry Johnson but Johnson was also much older than Foster when he got his contract and had much more wear and tear on his body. I seriously think you underestimate Foster.

I really don't get you, man. Do you not remember the days of Wali Lundy, Ron Dayne, Sophomore Slaton, Samkon Gado, Ahman Green, Jonathan Wells, Chris Taylor, Ryan Moats, and all the other crappy RBs in Texans history?!? And you just want to let Arian walk because of a few bad RB signings that occurred late in guys careers?

I mean what if Arian can have a career like Ladainian Tomlinson or Marshall Faulk? Why does he automatically have to be reduced to Larry Johnson? And it still remains to be seen what history will say about the Chris Johnson contract. He still finished with over 1,000 yards in a terrible season for him, so we'll see if he turns it back around. I suspect that he will.

For every Larry Johnson that only has two great seasons and then sucks there is an Adrian Peterson, a Maurice Jones-Drew, a Steven Jackson, etc. Running backs aren't automatically bad buys. There are risks with every single position in the NFL. I think you take a chance on the best RB in the NFL.

But hey who cares. We can win with any RB, right? The same way we won with Ron Dayne and Jonathan Wells?

:kubepalm:

ChampionTexan
01-11-2012, 12:02 PM
Did you not watch Tate in this last game?!? He looked pretty bad. Thinking Tate can replace everything Foster does is nuts.


:kubepalm:

There were four games this season where Tate was our primary ballcarrier. Three games where Arian was inactive, and one game where Tate had 23 carries as compared to Arian's 10.

In those four games, Tate totaled 398 yard rushing for an average of 4.85 YPC. He also caught nine passes for 64 yards. How does one game in which he was used sparingly - and still averaged over 4 yards per carry - make those four games meaningless?

There were only 5 players who had more than 100 carries who had a higher per carry average that Tate, and one of them was a QB (Cam Newton).

I'm clearly on the pay Foster bandwagon, and I have a hard time believing he'll be playing his home games anywhere but Reliant next year, or any year in the near future, but the concept that Tate can be a #1 RB on a Super Bowl contending team (which I realize is not exactly how you characterized it) is far from nuts.

thunderkyss
01-11-2012, 12:10 PM
I think we'll find out Sunday what Arian Foster, Andre Johnson, Brian Cushing, JJ Watt & all the other Texans are playing for.

I think they're playing for something bigger than contracts & roster spots. I think Rick Smith already has a big number in mind for Arian Foster, after Sunday, that number is going to jump even higher.

Bob takes care of Texans.

:texan:

infantrycak
01-11-2012, 12:11 PM
I just wish I could think of an example of a RB that didn't end up making people regret they paid him big money. Right now I can't think of one, and that bothers me.

Emmitt Smith held out the beginning of the 1993 season and I doubt the Cowboys regretted paying him big money.

Arian basically has the team over a barrel. They've got no choice but to pay him, based on past performance alone. If they don't, his agent will hold him out, and it will stir up a bunch of negative feelings.

The Texans can high RFA tender Foster for about $3.2 mil. But you are correct, a lot of the folks saying pay him will turn on him in a heartbeat especially once they realize he has been offered $3.2 mil.

To a degree I share your and Tex' concern but in a more general sense that I think there is always some cut-off amount the team has to decide on or you let a player walk.

Say Watt
01-11-2012, 12:18 PM
There were four games this season where Tate was our primary ballcarrier. Three games where Arian was inactive, and one game where Tate had 23 carries as compared to Arian's 10.

In those four games, Tate totaled 398 yard rushing for an average of 4.85 YPC. He also caught nine passes for 64 yards. How does one game in which he was used sparingly - and still averaged over 4 yards per carry make those four games meaningless?

There were only 5 players who had more than 100 carries who had a higher per carry average that Tate, and one of the was a QB (Cam Newton).

I'm clearly on the pay Foster bandwagon, and I have a hard time believing he'll be playing his home games anywhere but Reliant next year, or any year in the near future, but the concept that Tate couldn't be a #1 RB on a Super Bowl contending team (which I realize is not exactly how you characterized it) is far from nuts.

Some good points, and I agree that Tate had a pretty productive year when he played. He just simply isn't Arian Foster good. I also have major concerns about Tate's ability to stay healthy. The guy takes a pounding when he is on the field and has a propensity for just running straight into defenders as opposed to Foster's more evasive techniques. Tate was hurt all of last year, and he was also hurt quite a bit this year.

All I am saying, to sum it up briefly, is I think it is pretty stupid to count on someone like Tate when you have a proven, top tier RB in Arian Foster.

To a degree I share your and Tex' concern but in a more general sense that I think there is always some cut-off amount the team has to decide on or you let a player walk.

All of the above being said, I do agree with icak. Obviously, there is a limit. I just don't see Arian Foster as the type of guy to really push that limit. If he didn't hold out last season, I don't see him doing it this season if he gets the $3.2M tender. I also think he is the type of guy to accept a reasonable contract offer that makes him a very rich man but doesn't screw over the team and effect our ability to be Super Bowl contenders. Foster simply doesn't strike me as that type of guy, but I certainly could be wrong.

Norg
01-11-2012, 12:20 PM
I wish we could see more from tate

but i agree we really have no choice but to keep foster at this point

unless they gamble and think tate can be just has good

ChampionTexan
01-11-2012, 12:26 PM
The Texans can high RFA tender Foster for about $3.2 mil. But you are correct, a lot of the folks saying pay him will turn on him in a heartbeat especially once they realize he has been offered $3.2 mil.

To a degree I share your and Tex' concern but in a more general sense that I think there is always some cut-off amount the team has to decide on or you let a player walk.

As I know you are more than aware, that tender doesn't keep Arian from testing the market, but does give the Texans the right to match any offer he may get, and receive a first and third round draft pick as compensation if they choose not to match. While that's a pretty stiff price to pay, I think if I were a team drafting in the bottom half of the draft, and could use a stud RB, I'd definitely give some thought to forcing the Texans hand on it. If that were to happen, it would definitely resolve the situation one way or another.

thunderkyss
01-11-2012, 12:35 PM
...but boy do people forget about what happened to our own player in "Domanick Davis." One play or series of plays pretty much ended his career and DD was right about the same age as Foster.


I was happy to see DD get paid. In my mind, he was getting paid for what he had done, not what he was going to do. DD did not get a block buster "top RB in the league" deal. He got a fair deal considering what he had done, imo.

Foster, Forte, Rice.... in my mind deserve top RB money. None of them have any health issues like DD was dealing with when he got paid.

Marcus
01-11-2012, 12:36 PM
People are in love with him because he's playing great here and they have "emotion" involved. He twitters, he sells wrist bands, and has a nice smile. Statistics, facts, and history regarding RB's be damned. I won't say that resigning him would be an automatic mistake or anything or that it wouldn't possibly end up being a great decision down the road in hind sight, but boy do people forget about what happened to our own player in "Domanick Davis." One play or series of plays pretty much ended his career and DD was right about the same age as Foster.

But, I've learned over the years that investing in your O line and D line is a lot more important than investing into any RB. I've seen to many teams win big from year to year without having an elite RB that is being paid crazy money. I've also seen teams with great running games that had two or three RB's in some cases carry the load and have one of the best running attacks in the league. Ward can tell you all about that when he played on the Giants.

And people seem to forget that we've got a guy on this roster named Ben Tate. His YPC average is over 5 yards if I'm not mistaken in only his first season. The Texans could find another back for the ZBS and have him on the cheap. The fact is that great RB's aren't that hard to find and average to good RB's can be very productive under a great O line and system. Great defensive players that play positions like DE, DT, S, and CB are damn hard to find. The bust rate is pretty high at those positions, and when you can find guys at those positions that can really bring it, that's what your money is worth in my opinion. That's exactly why Kubiak picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush.

I'd really like to resign Foster, but there has to be some sort of cut off point at the RB position. Simply matching the status quo of what other backs got that got way over paid for what their position merits is playing into the NFL agent's game of getting their clients over paid.

And yet there appears to big discussions going on about Mario being "expendable". That is something that I don't get. Arian is untouchable, but Mario isn't???

Good post, btw. Rep.

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 01:05 PM
Did you not watch Tate in this last game?!? He looked pretty bad. Thinking Tate can replace everything Foster does is nuts.

Did you not watch Foster in the Raiders game?? He did not look that good. See how silly that sounds?? I don't really care if Tate had a game that wasn't lights out. I'll look at Tate's entire season where he tore it up and played fantastic over one game that happened last week in a high stakes playoff game. I never said Tate was as good, but that he was a great RB that we still have.

Alright fine, we have some bad signings with older guys like Larry Johnson but Johnson was also much older than Foster when he got his contract and had much more wear and tear on his body. I seriously think you underestimate Foster.

Why? Because I'm using history and evidence where teams have been successful with a great O line especially in a ZBS system where we've seen a ton of average backs do well and be productive? Or is it because I've seen what huge mistakes many teams have made that have invested tons of money at the RB position? Or that I remember history where a RB around the same age as Foster on this same team never played another down out of nowhere? You can call that under estimating Foster all you want, but I'd call that being objective and not getting overly attached to players on this team at a position that is historically pretty easy to replace if your Oline does their job.

I really don't get you, man. Do you not remember the days of Wali Lundy, Ron Dayne, Sophomore Slaton, Samkon Gado, Ahman Green, Jonathan Wells, Chris Taylor, Ryan Moats, and all the other crappy RBs in Texans history?!? And you just want to let Arian walk because of a few bad RB signings that occurred late in guys careers?

So because Kubiak was a complete dumbass with his first few guys he picked to play RB for this team under a poor O line that was still being rebuilt, I'm supposed to be shell shocked over that? Sorry, but those were just majorly stupid picks ups, and you're using Dom Capers era backs to try and make an argument here which isn't effective to your case. I noticed you conveniently left out Domanick Davis on that list whose career died out of nowhere.

As of lately Kubiak has done rather well at picking up RB's with Foster, Tate, and Ward. That is at least a positive line over the last few seasons where we have the deepest RB platoon in the league.

And you just want to let Arian walk because of a few bad RB signings that occurred late in guys careers?

Nice try by using the "late in their careers" line, but I mentioned CJ earlier who is very young and Deangello Williams isn't that old either. Those were stupid signings because their teams paid to much. There are plenty of guys that were great early on and flamed out as well either due to injury or other factors like Jamal Anderson (Career ending injury), DD (Career ending injury), BO JACKSON (Career ending injury), Billy Simms (Horrible knee injury), Gale Sayers (horrible knee injury that cut his career short), Lendale White, Terrell Davis (career died after his 4th season), Kevin Jones, Christian Okoye, Steve Slaton, Rubean Mayes, Icky Woods, and etc.

Do I really need to continue on with examples for you to understand why there is validity to these concerns?


I mean what if Arian can have a career like Ladainian Tomlinson or Marshall Faulk? Why does he automatically have to be reduced to Larry Johnson? And it still remains to be seen what history will say about the Chris Johnson contract. He still finished with over 1,000 yards in a terrible season for him, so we'll see if he turns it back around. I suspect that he will.

His value to the Titans will never be worth what they decided to pay him.

For every Larry Johnson that only has two great seasons and then sucks there is an Adrian Peterson, a Maurice Jones-Drew, a Steven Jackson, etc. Running backs aren't automatically bad buys. There are risks with every single position in the NFL. I think you take a chance on the best RB in the NFL.

And how much has Peterson and MJD helped to win their teams SB's or even kept them as top winning teams?? AP is not a good example to your cause either and is possibly an example for me considering that he just tore his ACL after getting a huge contract. You think the Vikings might be wishing they could take that back now?

But hey who cares. We can win with any RB, right? The same way we won with Ron Dayne and Jonathan Wells?

This is just a poor statement man. You have to leach onto Jonathan Wells who was the starting RB in the Texans first season or two of an expansion team when Tony Boselli got hurt?? Lol! Talk about a reach there. Ron Dayne? A guy who should have never even been on this team that was a Denver disciple of Kubiaks on a team that had came off of a 2-14 season? How the hell do you put face palms out there when you write stuff like this?

The fact is that the RB position is a crap shoot as far as "injuries" goes. You simply can't put to much loyalty and emotion to players at that position, because historically their careers have to high of a tendency to end badly or to change dramatically due to ACL tears, micro fracture surgeries, and other career threatening surgeries that can either end a career or dramatically change a guy's skills.

I never once stated "not" to sign Arian Foster. I stated to "not" to pay him like Williams and CJ or that close to it, because no RB is worth that. I watched the Broncos trade Clinton Portis when he was amazing, and they did just fine with Tatum Bell and Mike Anderson and a few other guys under Shanahan in this same system. This is not about one guy. It's about an entire team and some positions are a lot easier to replace high production with than others and Foster happens to play a position that is probably one of the easiest position to replace on a team if you have a very good O line.

Say Watt
01-11-2012, 02:13 PM
Did you not watch Foster in the Raiders game?? He did not look that good. See how silly that sounds?? I don't really care if Tate had a game that wasn't lights out. I'll look at Tate's entire season where he tore it up and played fantastic over one game that happened last week in a high stakes playoff game. I never said Tate was as good, but that he was a great RB that we still have.



Why? Because I'm using history and evidence where teams have been successful with a great O line especially in a ZBS system where we've seen a ton of average backs do well and be productive? Or is it because I've seen what huge mistakes many teams have made that have invested tons of money at the RB position? Or that I remember history where a RB around the same age as Foster on this same team never played another down out of nowhere? You can call that under estimating Foster all you want, but I'd call that being objective and not getting overly attached to players on this team at a position that is historically pretty easy to replace if your Oline does their job.



So because Kubiak was a complete dumbass with his first few guys he picked to play RB for this team under a poor O line that was still being rebuilt, I'm supposed to be shell shocked over that? Sorry, but those were just majorly stupid picks ups, and you're using Dom Capers era backs to try and make an argument here which isn't effective to your case. I noticed you conveniently left out Domanick Davis on that list whose career died out of nowhere.

As of lately Kubiak has done rather well at picking up RB's with Foster, Tate, and Ward. That is at least a positive line over the last few seasons where we have the deepest RB platoon in the league.



Nice try by using the "late in their careers" line, but I mentioned CJ earlier who is very young and Deangello Williams isn't that old either. Those were stupid signings because their teams paid to much. There are plenty of guys that were great early on and flamed out as well either due to injury or other factors like Jamal Anderson (Career ending injury), DD (Career ending injury), BO JACKSON (Career ending injury), Billy Simms (Horrible knee injury), Gale Sayers (horrible knee injury that cut his career short), Lendale White, Terrell Davis (career died after his 4th season), Kevin Jones, Christian Okoye, Steve Slaton, Rubean Mayes, Icky Woods, and etc.

Do I really need to continue on with examples for you to understand why there is validity to these concerns?




His value to the Titans will never be worth what they decided to pay him.



And how much has Peterson and MJD helped to win their teams SB's or even kept them as top winning teams?? AP is not a good example to your cause either and is possibly an example for me considering that he just tore his ACL after getting a huge contract. You think the Vikings might be wishing they could take that back now?



This is just a poor statement man. You have to leach onto Jonathan Wells who was the starting RB in the Texans first season or two of an expansion team when Tony Boselli got hurt?? Lol! Talk about a reach there. Ron Dayne? A guy who should have never even been on this team that was a Denver disciple of Kubiaks on a team that had came off of a 2-14 season? How the hell do you put face palms out there when you write stuff like this?

The fact is that the RB position is a crap shoot as far as "injuries" goes. You simply can't put to much loyalty and emotion to players at that position, because historically their careers have to high of a tendency to end badly or to change dramatically due to ACL tears, micro fracture surgeries, and other career threatening surgeries that can either end a career or dramatically change a guy's skills.

I never once stated "not" to sign Arian Foster. I stated to "not" to pay him like Williams and CJ or that close to it, because no RB is worth that. I watched the Broncos trade Clinton Portis when he was amazing, and they did just fine with Tatum Bell and Mike Anderson and a few other guys under Shanahan in this same system. This is not about one guy. It's about an entire team and some positions are a lot easier to replace high production with than others and Foster happens to play a position that is probably one of the easiest position to replace on a team if you have a very good O line.

Good Lord talking to you is like yelling at a brick wall. You're right, I'm wrong. Feel better?

:kubepalm:

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 02:30 PM
Good Lord talking to you is like yelling at a brick wall. You're right, I'm wrong. Feel better?

:kubepalm:

So I'm a brick wall because I don't agree with paying Arian Foster or any other RB "Chris Johnson" money?? I don't think so. How about making a better case for your position instead of using jokes like Jonathan Wells and Ron Dayne's poor play to justify that? I gave you a long list of RB disasters that flamed out who were great at young ages since you claimed I was only using old broken down backs. The history and the risk factor is there regardless of how much you'd like to deny it or overlook it. No need to get petty and chippy about it though. It's not like I'm saying that a guy like Yao Ming wouldn't be a good long term investment.

Say Watt
01-11-2012, 02:43 PM
So I'm a brick wall because I don't agree with paying Arian Foster or any other RB "Chris Johnson" money?? I don't think so. How about making a better case for your position instead of using jokes like Jonathan Wells and Ron Dayne's poor play to justify that? I gave you a long list of RB disasters that flamed out who were great at young ages since you claimed I was only using old broken down backs. The history and the risk factor is there regardless of how much you'd like to deny it or overlook it. No need to get petty and chippy about it though. It's not like I'm saying that a guy like Yao Ming wouldn't be a good long term investment.

I haven't ever advocated paying Chris Johnson type money to anyone. DeAngelo Williams contract is a little more manageable (although it was a stupid contract because Williams hadn't done much in 2 seasons before the big contract). It was a silly contract, but it was more ridiculous because Williams is 3 years older than Foster. CJ1K's contract was even more ridiculous because no RB is worth that kind of money. That isn't what I'm arguing.

But it sounds like some of you advocate basically just letting Arian walk and not even waste our time going to the table because RBs are essentially a dime a dozen. So that is why I mentioned the Texans past RBs. I listed all those other backs because prior to Arian, the RB position for us had been a revolving door, and we had a bunch of jokes at RB aside from a couple of good years from DD and one good year from Slaton. I do think you have forgotten just how bad things were at the position if you think we can just let Arian walk for nothing and think we can just plug in Tate & Ward and still be one of the top rushing teams in the league. Won't happen.

Oh and Jonathan Wells played in 15 games in 2005, the year before Kubiak got here.

It irritates me because I remember what it was like watching Slaton fumble games away. I remember what it was like watching Ron Dayne end promising careers. And now that we finally have a GREAT RB, many of you advocate that we just let him go and focus on Mario "Takes Games Off" Williams?!?

Finally, what the hell does Yao Ming have to do with the conversation?

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 03:10 PM
I haven't ever advocated paying Chris Johnson type money to anyone. DeAngelo Williams contract is a little more manageable (although it was a stupid contract because Williams hadn't done much in 2 seasons before the big contract). It was a silly contract, but it was more ridiculous because Williams is 3 years older than Foster. CJ1K's contract was even more ridiculous because no RB is worth that kind of money. That isn't what I'm arguing.

But Arian is going to ask for that kind of money. He'd be stupid not to. He is a very young guy and he should get the most money he can at this early stage in his career especially when his career could end very easily at his position. I can't fault Arian for wanting to get his just like I couldn't fault Wade for wanting to do the same.

The NFL works in a way where elite players at their position will always look at the last player's deal and use that as a barometer as to what they should get. It sucks and it's a flawed system, because contracts just continue to go up and up and up because of that, but that's the way it is until the owners come together and stop that ****. But until that happens, elite players like Arian will ask for what the last guy at his status got or even more. And as it stands, Arian's demands will exceed what a RB is worth paying in my eyes.

But it sounds like some of you advocate basically just letting Arian walk and not even waste our time going to the table because RBs are essentially a dime a dozen.

No, I never said that at all. They are not a dime a dozen and they have their value, but their values always hinge upon how strong or weak their O line is a majority of the time. I certainly wouldn't want to let him walk, but if we pay him crazy cash, it will be harder to trade him and get the full value that teams would likely pay and we'd be limiting our trade options due to his new contract that a lot of teams wouldn't want to touch.


So that is why I mentioned the Texans past RBs. I listed all those other backs because prior to Arian, the RB position for us had been a revolving door, and we had a bunch of jokes at RB aside from a couple of good years from DD and one good year from Slaton. I do think you have forgotten just how bad things were at the position if you think we can just let Arian walk for nothing and think we can just plug in Tate & Ward and still be one of the top rushing teams in the league. Won't happen.

Oh, I have not forgotten one bit, but those guys we had were all horrible decisions from the jump that had STUPID written all over them as soon as we made the deals. That was a big reason why I couldn't stand Kubiak from the jump for how poorly he handled our running game early on especially for a guy that was supposed to be this genius offensive guru from the ZBS system in Denver. Kubiak's last few decisions have gotten better though and his track record is looking better as far as our RB's go.



It irritates me because I remember what it was like watching Slaton fumble games away. I remember what it was like watching Ron Dayne end promising careers. And now that we finally have a GREAT RB, many of you advocate that we just let him go and focus on Mario "Takes Games Off" Williams?!?


Wo now, slow down on that stuff. I've called Mario overrated for years and I don't want to sign him either. We've got plenty of killers in Reed, Barwin, Smith, and Watt now that are a lot more effective than what Mario has been. I'd rather pay Foster than pay Mario even if we spend that ridiculous Chris Johnson type of money.

Finally, what the hell does Yao Ming have to do with the conversation?

Because Yao Ming was a perfect example of a guy that people in this city got way to emotionally attached to, because he was 7'6 Asian guy that people were fond of personally and didn't want to accept what a horrible investment he had been towards the Rockets franchise as far as "building a contender" went. I talked about it for years and caught hell for it and many of you guys are getting just as angry about some people not wanting to sign Foster for crazy money. I want to sign Foster big time just to reiterate that point again. I just want the Texans to have a reasonable cut off point and stick to that.

Marcus
01-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Wo now, slow down on that stuff. I've called Mario overrated for years and I don't want to sign him either. We've got plenty of killers in Reed, Barwin, Smith, and Watt now that are a lot more effective than what Mario has been. I'd rather pay Foster than pay Mario even if we spend that ridiculous Chris Johnson type of money.

Really? Doesn't that run counter to your earlier statement about keeping defensive linemen? What was your opinion of how he played the linebacker position this year before he got hurt. I seem to recall him nearly leading the league in sacks, plus numerous other QB hurries while learning his new position.

And I didn't ever say we shouldn't pay Arian, just be smart about it, and keep in mind past precedent.

Double Barrel
01-11-2012, 03:26 PM
The interesting thing about Mario is that he will demand a much higher contract than a RB based upon his position(s). And his motor has been questioned for years. So what is the potential that he loses his hunger once he's paid?

Marcus
01-11-2012, 03:35 PM
The interesting thing about Mario is that he will demand a much higher contract than a RB based upon his position(s). And his motor has been questioned for years. So what is the potential that he loses his hunger once he's paid?

Well, Mario's already been paid the big money. Seems to me that if he was going to coast, he would have done it before now?

But I can see this thread is starting to derail. There's already a couple of discussions about Mario, and I don't think any minds are going to get changed.

Ryan
01-11-2012, 03:35 PM
The interesting thing about Mario is that he will demand a much higher contract than a RB based upon his position(s). And his motor has been questioned for years. So what is the potential that he loses his hunger once he's paid?



Considering his rookie contract was through the roof he's already made a lot of money in this league.

thunderkyss
01-11-2012, 03:37 PM
The interesting thing about Mario is that he will demand a much higher contract than a RB based upon his position(s). And his motor has been questioned for years. So what is the potential that he loses his hunger once he's paid?

I'd love to see Mario play on a defense with a bunch of play-makers in the front 7

I've never thought he took plays off. On plays where he's got backside contain is the only plays I can identify that some may think he's taking off.

But If Mario can play on a team with Barwin, Reed, JJWAtt.... Cushing & Demeco.. I think he'll be that beast we all know he can be.

Norg
01-11-2012, 03:38 PM
What yeah had some 1 yard carries in the last game but when they put him in the 4th qtr he ran for like 7 yards and a first down which was like 8 yards thats not bad its great

Double Barrel
01-11-2012, 03:41 PM
I was just asking a devil's advocate question about Mario. I hope we can keep him and see what he can do with [hopefully] Wade defense in another year.

Good points that he's been paid, though. Let's just hope that Arian turns out the same way, because it is certain that the Texans will pay the man.

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 03:46 PM
Really? Doesn't that run counter to your earlier statement about keeping defensive linemen? What was your opinion of how he played the linebacker position this year before he got hurt. I seem to recall him nearly leading the league in sacks, plus numerous other QB hurries while learning his new position.

Mario would be a complete waste of cash to me. He has already been over paid for years as it is to me and he doesn't give full effort all of the time. But, whether you agree with that part or not, we have a full stable of great pass rushers with or without Mario, so he is no longer "a need" for us. We're finally stacked as far as pass rushers go. Guys like Reed, Watt, and Barwin just seem so much more hungry and give a much better effort than Mario ever will. So, yeah at this point Mario would be a waste when I consider the fact that we could try to get something for him or use that money to sign a top tier safety, CB, or Tackle somewhere. But bottom line, I don't want Mario on this team anymore, because our younger pass rushers are simply more effective than he has ever been as a whole unit now.

For the record though, I do acknowledge that Mario was playing lights out before the injury this year. But even if I felt that we were getting that version of him back, I still would rather allocate those funds to another position because we're good there now and yeah if it came down to Mario or Foster, I'm taking Foster easily on that even if we have to over pay. I also think we should continue to "invest" in our O line to keep them intact for many years to come.

But I definitely feel that Foster is more valuable to this team than Mario ever will be. But in general a top tier elite DE will always be more valuable to a team than a top tier elite RB.

Jaysol
01-11-2012, 04:01 PM
The way I look at Foster's impending contract (and I do think he is going to get paid next year) is regardless of how much we pay him. He has been playing for what amounts to minimum wage for the past two years while performing among the best in the league. Including being a good chunk of our offense through this playoff run.

I understand there are multiple reasons for a RBs performance, but it is like that with most positions in team sports.

In the end, WHEN we pay Foster, regardless of how big of a contract it is, when you average in the past 2 seasons where he has performed well above what they were paying for, it will be well worth it. Just consider a percentage of the money we are giving him in the future as an incentive for his performance in his first two seasons.

Marcus
01-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Mario would be a complete waste of cash to me. He has already been over paid for years as it is to me and he doesn't give full effort all of the time. But, whether you agree with that part or not, we have a full stable of great pass rushers with or without Mario, so he is no longer "a need" for us. We're finally stacked as far as pass rushers go. Guys like Reed, Watt, and Barwin just seem so much more hungry and give a much better effort than Mario ever will. So, yeah at this point Mario would be a waste when I consider the fact that we could try to get something for him or use that money to sign a top tier safety, CB, or Tackle somewhere. But bottom line, I don't want Mario on this team anymore, because our younger pass rushers are simply more effective than he has ever been as a whole unit now.

For the record though, I do acknowledge that Mario was playing lights out before the injury this year. But even if I felt that we were getting that version of him back, I still would rather allocate those funds to another position because we're good there now and yeah if it came down to Mario or Foster, I'm taking Foster easily on that even if we have to over pay. I also think we should continue to "invest" in our O line to keep them intact for many years to come.

But I definitely feel that Foster is more valuable to this team than Mario ever will be. But in general a top tier elite DE will always be more valuable to a team than a top tier elite RB.

The point I would raise from what's in bold, is with the amount of injuries we've had this year, there was finally enough depth to carry the team through. And with 3-4, and I'm sure it will stay a 3-4 even if Wade leaves, you simply cannot have enough bonified 3-4 linebackers that can get to the QB. We at this point, because of Mario's injury, are only a linebacker injury away from have no pass rush. The way I see it, if Mario, Cushing, Reed, Barwin and Demeco are all healthy, you have to find a way to keep them all on the field. But if one goes down, then you still have depth.

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 04:21 PM
The point I would raise from what's in bold, is with the amount of injuries we've had this year, there was finally enough depth to carry the team through. And with 3-4, and I'm sure it will stay a 3-4 even if Wade leaves, you simply cannot have enough bonified 3-4 linebackers that can get to the QB. We at this point, because of Mario's injury, are only a linebacker injury away from have no pass rush. The way I see it, if Mario, Cushing, Reed, Barwin and Demeco are all healthy, you have to find a way to keep them all on the field. But if one goes down, then you still have depth.

Yes, this is a very fair point, but you and I obviously have very different views of Mario Williams. I think that Mario is a very good player, but just not all of the time and I believe that is the case because he doesn't have the drive to be an every down non stop motor player and that's the kind of players I want on this defense.

I agree with you on the depth factor and that's a legit concern, but we're not going to have another injury season like this one again most likely. I do agree that we can't have enough pass rushers here, but I'd rather keep drafting young guys that fit this 3-4 system we run and I'm fairly confident that we can find guys like that in the draft moving forward that will be waaaaayyy less than what Mario costs especially since the players in the draft aren't getting crazy money anymore. Mario is going to get paid a ton of money after this season and I don't want to be the team to do it. We've already done that for him, and he hasn't been a good investment in my eyes. I also feel that finding productive pass rushers in the 3-4 are easier to find than in the 4-3 and I'm so glad that we switched to the 3-4.

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 04:25 PM
In the end, WHEN we pay Foster, regardless of how big of a contract it is, when you average in the past 2 seasons where he has performed well above what they were paying for, it will be well worth it. Just consider a percentage of the money we are giving him in the future as an incentive for his performance in his first two seasons.

This is just incredibly flawed thinking.

You don't pay guys on what they have done. You pay guys on what you expect them to do going forward. You don't pay someone crazy money because you got a bargain for him. It won't be worth it at all if Foster isn't an elite back for several seasons, or blows his knee out. What he did seasons before that won't matter, because those seasons are gone and a thing of the past.

Say Watt
01-11-2012, 04:37 PM
But Arian is going to ask for that kind of money. He'd be stupid not to. He is a very young guy and he should get the most money he can at this early stage in his career especially when his career could end very easily at his position. I can't fault Arian for wanting to get his just like I couldn't fault Wade for wanting to do the same.

The NFL works in a way where elite players at their position will always look at the last player's deal and use that as a barometer as to what they should get. It sucks and it's a flawed system, because contracts just continue to go up and up and up because of that, but that's the way it is until the owners come together and stop that ****. But until that happens, elite players like Arian will ask for what the last guy at his status got or even more. And as it stands, Arian's demands will exceed what a RB is worth paying in my eyes.



No, I never said that at all. They are not a dime a dozen and they have their value, but their values always hinge upon how strong or weak their O line is a majority of the time. I certainly wouldn't want to let him walk, but if we pay him crazy cash, it will be harder to trade him and get the full value that teams would likely pay and we'd be limiting our trade options due to his new contract that a lot of teams wouldn't want to touch.




Oh, I have not forgotten one bit, but those guys we had were all horrible decisions from the jump that had STUPID written all over them as soon as we made the deals. That was a big reason why I couldn't stand Kubiak from the jump for how poorly he handled our running game early on especially for a guy that was supposed to be this genius offensive guru from the ZBS system in Denver. Kubiak's last few decisions have gotten better though and his track record is looking better as far as our RB's go.






Wo now, slow down on that stuff. I've called Mario overrated for years and I don't want to sign him either. We've got plenty of killers in Reed, Barwin, Smith, and Watt now that are a lot more effective than what Mario has been. I'd rather pay Foster than pay Mario even if we spend that ridiculous Chris Johnson type of money.



Because Yao Ming was a perfect example of a guy that people in this city got way to emotionally attached to, because he was 7'6 Asian guy that people were fond of personally and didn't want to accept what a horrible investment he had been towards the Rockets franchise as far as "building a contender" went. I talked about it for years and caught hell for it and many of you guys are getting just as angry about some people not wanting to sign Foster for crazy money. I want to sign Foster big time just to reiterate that point again. I just want the Texans to have a reasonable cut off point and stick to that.

Must spread rep yada yada yada.

Nice post man. Now you are making some sense. I think you finally communicated your point fully, and I now see you and I are in 100% agreement. We need to do everything we can to resign Arian but if he goes off asking for crazy money like Chris Johnson, then we have to sign him to his tender and if some team is crazy enough to pay him what he wants, then we can be happy with the picks.

I want to keep Arian and to be honest, I think we will. I mean what I said when I really don't believe Arian is the type to go Chris Johnson crazy on us. I'd say 5 years $40M with $18M guaranteed is about right.

infantrycak
01-11-2012, 04:43 PM
I gave you a long list of RB disasters that flamed out who were great at young ages since you claimed I was only using old broken down backs. The history and the risk factor is there regardless of how much you'd like to deny it or overlook it.

Yes there is a risk factor to the decision but for but look at the all time greats who generally stayed with their team and were well rewarded - Smith, LT, Sanders - or who were blockbuster traded and still well rewarded - Faulk, Bettis.

The interesting thing about Mario is that he will demand a much higher contract than a RB based upon his position(s).

The franchise tag (used as an indicator of top contracts rather than as an option) for RB's is $1 mil less than for LB's so it isn't a huge difference.

And his motor has been questioned for years. So what is the potential that he loses his hunger once he's paid?

Personally I have always thought that was people repeating crap from some scouting reports. Every year I hear this brought up and pay particular attention to him for a game or two and I don't see it, but JMO.

You want to see someone take a play off - check Nate Clements on Foster's TD run. Now there is a dude that gave up on a play.

thunderkyss
01-11-2012, 04:47 PM
I want to keep Arian and to be honest, I think we will. I mean what I said when I really don't believe Arian is the type to go Chris Johnson crazy on us. I'd say 5 years $40M with $18M guaranteed is about right.

So you're ok with signing Arian Foster to $8M/yr, but not $9.3M/yr like Chris Johnson got? (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/08/the-full-chris-johnson-contract-breakdown/)

You're going to let the best RB in the league walk over $1.3M/yr?

That's crazy.

Texecutioner
01-11-2012, 04:54 PM
Must spread rep yada yada yada.

Nice post man. Now you are making some sense. I think you finally communicated your point fully, and I now see you and I are in 100% agreement. We need to do everything we can to resign Arian but if he goes off asking for crazy money like Chris Johnson, then we have to sign him to his tender and if some team is crazy enough to pay him what he wants, then we can be happy with the picks.

I want to keep Arian and to be honest, I think we will. I mean what I said when I really don't believe Arian is the type to go Chris Johnson crazy on us. I'd say 5 years $40M with $18M guaranteed is about right.

I definitely think that we will pay him even if it's Chris Johnson money for the record.

Double Barrel
01-11-2012, 04:55 PM
The franchise tag (used as an indicator of top contracts rather than as an option) for RB's is $1 mil less than for LB's so it isn't a huge difference.

I still tend to think of him as a DE even though he's now a LB on this defense.

And I know DEs are getting paid. Aren't they close to being - on average - the highest paid position the league?

If so, it seems like Mario might want to go to another team just to get a contract for DE money instead of LB.

Personally I have always thought that was people repeating crap from some scouting reports. Every year I hear this brought up and pay particular attention to him for a game or two and I don't see it, but JMO.


Vinny broke down his play for me awhile back and showed clear evidence where Mario was letting up when plays went away from him. He did not stay active toward the ball like you see with many other players. He also analyzed some of his technique, which seemed to show Mario letting up when blocked far enough outside. That was from the 2009 season, though.

Wade is impressed with him, though, and at this point, I have to give him the nod out of respect.

Dutchrudder
01-11-2012, 05:05 PM
I think that we need to retain Arian, but I share Tex's concern for RB shelf-life. If I'm Rick Smith, I start by tendering Arian for the 3.3 or whatever million for a 1st and 3rd and see what happens there. I would expect that nobody would give him a huge contract and give up a 1st and 3rd for Arian due to the costs. That gets us through 2012 with Arian likely tearing it up on the field again. Come 2013, the salary cap rises a bunch, probably around 10 million, and that there is more than enough money to sign Arian to a good deal or simply franchise tag him for ~9 million.

That plan would give us enough money to work with in 2012 to re-sign Mario, Dreessen and Myers to new deals and keep the core of this team going for 4 more years. Keep building through the draft and use excess cap money to extend guys like Schaub, Cushing and Brown.

ObsiWan
01-11-2012, 05:18 PM
Remember we are Denver south and they did trade away one of the best and most productive backs in the league in Clinton Portis. And we have a very very good backup already in place that could start on most teams. Just sayin!

It's in our (Denver's) history so you have to wonder if maybe they might be thinking About what kind of value they could get for him in a trade. Would they sign him and trade him if it meant getting a top 2 or 3 player at a position like CB? Would you? I love Foster but he does have a problem holding on to the ball and Smithiak has proven they are more than capable of building a top rated offense with late round guys.



You're confusing Shanahan with Smithiak. Shanny Sr. made those deals. Have you seen signs that Smithiak will "flip" his players like some folks flip houses?

I haven't. Of course, I could have missed something.

thunderkyss
01-11-2012, 05:25 PM
You're confusing Shanahan with Smithiak. Shanny Sr. made those deals. Have you seen signs that Smithiak will "flip" his players like some folks flip houses?

I haven't. Of course, I could have missed something.

Have they ever had a glut of talent at one position to be able to do such?

I don't think Bob would let them, but if Smithiak can sell it....... who knows?

Jaysol
01-11-2012, 05:32 PM
This is just incredibly flawed thinking.

You don't pay guys on what they have done. You pay guys on what you expect them to do going forward. You don't pay someone crazy money because you got a bargain for him. It won't be worth it at all if Foster isn't an elite back for several seasons, or blows his knee out. What he did seasons before that won't matter, because those seasons are gone and a thing of the past.

The only tangible marker for how much a player is worth is their previous accolades. I understand that the salary implies a certain amount of performance going forward, but age and previous accomplishments are a huge determining factor in a players worth.

In the long run, if Foster gets 9.3 mil for the next 5 years. If you factor in the 250k he made last year, and the 500k he made this year. You are talking about ~47.25 MIL. That's under 7 MIL for 7 years of work for the Texans. Two of which have already been proven worth it. I don't think many GMs would turn down that kind of deal for the caliber of RB that Foster is.

ObsiWan
01-11-2012, 05:37 PM
(1) The NFL works in a way where elite players at their position will always look at the last player's deal and use that as a barometer as to what they should get. It sucks and it's a flawed system, because contracts just continue to go up and up and up because of that, (2) but that's the way it is until the owners come together and stop that ****. But until that happens, elite players like Arian will ask for what the last guy at his status got or even more. And as it stands, Arian's demands will exceed what a RB is worth paying in my eyes.


While I agree we should do all we can to keep both Arian and Ben Tate without breaking our vacuuming out our piggy bank, I have a couple of nits.

(1) Using one's peers' salary/compensation level to gauge what you should be earning is the American way. It's how lawyers, engineers, surgeons, plumbers, CEOs and any other "skilled" individual negotiates for their compensation level. That strategy is not unique to the NFL.

(2) Ummm... isn't the term for that "Collusion"? And isn't that illegal? I know it is in MLB.

BTW, I think Ben Tate will seek "greener" pastures before Arian. Arian just doesn't seem to be an "I'm all about getting paid" type of guy. Tate, however, might just want to go someplace where he can "be the Man" and not be in Arian's shadow. (

We may be worried about the wrong guy leaving. I want both of them.
...but I'm greedy
:D