PDA

View Full Version : Anyone else concerned about Offense


The Medic01
12-19-2011, 05:01 PM
We are only averaging 17.5 ppg with Yates which isn't great. If our running game doesn't get going in all the playoff games we're in trouble. what do you think can running game and defense get us far in the playoffs?

Texecutioner
12-19-2011, 05:41 PM
I've been concerned about our offense from the moment Schaub was listed as being gone for the season. Anyone who wasn't, was completely fooling themselves.

TexanSam
12-19-2011, 05:59 PM
Yes. It's very concerning. We haven't scored over 20 points in the last 4 games. That's worrisome. The Jaguars game I can understand since Leinart going down was completely unexpected. But the last 3 just make me nervous. Especially yesterday's game. We were able to drive the ball well enough to score, but since Schaub went down we've been settling for FG's way too much. If we don't score over 20 against the Colts and Titans, then we could be in big trouble.

ATXtexanfan
12-19-2011, 06:11 PM
not much to fear as a defense with nothing on the outside and a 3rd string qb making decisions. hopefully dre will come back ready to rock n roll

ObsiWan
12-19-2011, 07:14 PM
I've been concerned about our offense from the moment Schaub was listed as being gone for the season. Anyone who wasn't, was completely fooling themselves.

^^^^
THIS!
In spades.

TexansBull
12-19-2011, 07:30 PM
I am not concerned about Atlanta. We over achieved. Bengals, we came out flat and came back to win. We are the better team.

Coming out flat and playing from multiple scores from behind is starting to concern me. Bengals and Carolina. And our recent inability to put up big points is concerning.

Now the Falcons and Bengals are better than the teams we had been playing - tampa, the browns, and others are considerable drop offs compared to the Falcons and Bengals.

But we played like crap yesterday. Team was flat. We were playing from multiple scores behind so our game plan was jacked up. All the players had some suckage yesterday. Foster fumbled, yates interceptions, offenseive line penalties, defense got embarrassed, Rackers missed fg, etc. That's a game we should have won. Turnovers are changing the pace of the game. We are beginning to show our key players that are out are being missed. But that doesn't mean we should limit our expectations. We can still win and win big.

The next two games we need to win by a few scores. We need TDs. We need to show our offense is explosive against indy and Tennessee and win with conviction. They are still the same teams we blew out. I want to see us score mid twenties to thirty points. If that doesn't happen, I will get majorly concerned about losing our first game in the playoffs. Wildcard or the bye. Right now it is more of a minor concern when I put things in perspective.

Kthx
12-19-2011, 07:31 PM
I have been concerned about our offense even when Schaub was in. Our lack of a #2 WR is really killing us I think.

Texan_Bill
12-19-2011, 07:32 PM
I'm concerned... I'm concerned with all those people that were ready to discard Schaub because TJ was the second coming of Brady....


That said, TJ "can" run this offense, but not nearly at the level that Schaub can. To say otherwise is ludicrous.

cuppacoffee
12-19-2011, 07:40 PM
Showing vanilla O the next two games.

Kubes is putting in a special O for TJ, making use of his 'better than Schaub' athletic abilities .

Gonna suprise everyone in the playoffs with previously unseen offensive plays.

Championship!:trophy:

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

:coffee:

thunderkyss
12-19-2011, 07:41 PM
I knew there would be a time when the defense would struggle & our offense was going to have to step up & win the game.

Watching Matt Schaub this year did not instill a lot of confidence that they would be able to.

The defense looked suspect vs Cincinnati & I was quite impressed to see Tj & them boys on Kirby get it done & come home with a win. Against a quality opponent.

They couldn't get it done in back to back games.

We all knew this, this is no surprise. But I think we all, (secretly, or deep down) want this team to have the #1 seed & are disappointed that it won't happen.

HJam72
12-20-2011, 09:13 AM
Yates has to win against Tennessee by a score of at least 41-7. :jk:

dream_team
12-20-2011, 10:16 AM
If you're down to your 3rd string rookie QB, of course you have to be concerned. Those thinking we wouldn't miss a beat is a bit too optimistic.

Once Schaub went down, we all of a sudden became a defensive team. We need our defense to win games. The offense needs to simply score about 14-17 points, eat up a lot of clock, and DON'T turn the ball over! Then let the defense do its thing. We almost lost the Bengals game because of turnovers, and we did lose the Panthers game because of turnovers.

Hardcore Texan
12-20-2011, 11:03 AM
Hopefully TJ can grow over the next two games and we can lean on the run game in the playoffs, with solid D play it's possible. But I think we go over 20 vs. indy and get back on track.

Texan_Bill
12-20-2011, 11:09 AM
Yates has to win against Tennessee by a score of at least 41-7. :jk:

TJ has to do better than 41-7. Schaub did it on the road, TJ will be at home. :winky:

thunderkyss
12-20-2011, 11:10 AM
If you're down to your 3rd string rookie QB, of course you have to be concerned. Those thinking we wouldn't miss a beat is a bit too optimistic.

Once Schaub went down, we all of a sudden became a defensive team. We need our defense to win games. The offense needs to simply score about 14-17 points, eat up a lot of clock, and DON'T turn the ball over! Then let the defense do its thing. We almost lost the Bengals game because of turnovers, and we did lose the Panthers game because of turnovers.

I believe when Schaub was put on IR, many of us recalled the current win streak we were on had more to do with the run game & the defense. None of that was going to change, so we thought.

We felt Leinart was going to turn the keys on to this Maserati & enjoy the ride. When he went down, we were looking at the same situation. We (or at least I) didn't think we would have to lean on the young'n to win a game for us.

That plan was canned when the defense slept through the first half of the Cincinnati game & the kid came through.

Carolina was thought to be the toughest offense we would face before the post-season & they did not disappoint. We got through the game healthy, but without the win. So what.

We got to see what would happen if we had to lean on Tj.... most of us didn't like what we saw. I thought it was a mixed bag.

I still think Kubiak is an offensive guru & will come up with a game plan over the next 6 weeks that will give us a chance to win every game.

no pressure.

:trophy:

Oh yeah, I forgot. Tj was supposed to have Aj to help him out.

TheCD
12-20-2011, 11:22 AM
I believe when Schaub was put on IR, many of us recalled the current win streak we were on had more to do with the run game & the defense. None of that was going to change, so we thought.

We felt Leinart was going to turn the keys on to this Maserati & enjoy the ride. When he went down, we were looking at the same situation. We (or at least I) didn't think we would have to lean on the young'n to win a game for us.

That plan was canned when the defense slept through the first half of the Cincinnati game & the kid came through.

Carolina was thought to be the toughest offense we would face before the post-season & they did not disappoint. We got through the game healthy, but without the win. So what.

We got to see what would happen if we had to lean on Tj.... most of us didn't like what we saw. I thought it was a mixed bag.

I still think Kubiak is an offensive guru & will come up with a game plan over the next 6 weeks that will give us a chance to win every game.

no pressure.

:trophy:

Oh yeah, I forgot. Tj was supposed to have Aj to help him out.

Thanks for this post. MSR, but very well thought out and explained. I have been really concerned with the last two wins, and when I expressed that some of the newer members have been very offensive about their opposing point of view. Its nice to see some of the veteran members keep their cool about their opinions, it helps to keep people on the opposite side in perspective of everything not being so bad, since I don't have to worry about defending my 'fanhood' because I have a different opinion. Thanks.

Speedy
12-20-2011, 11:27 AM
I've been concerned the second I heard Schaub was done.

HJam72
12-20-2011, 11:47 AM
Thanks for this post. MSR, but very well thought out and explained. I have been really concerned with the last two wins, and when I expressed that some of the newer members have been very offensive about their opposing point of view. Its nice to see some of the veteran members keep their cool about their opinions, it helps to keep people on the opposite side in perspective of everything not being so bad, since I don't have to worry about defending my 'fanhood' because I have a different opinion. Thanks.

Don't forget us veteran members that still don't know what we're talkin' about. :rake:

TejasTom
12-20-2011, 12:08 PM
I have been concerned about our offense even when Schaub was in. Our lack of a #2 WR is really killing us I think.

This!

76Texan
12-20-2011, 01:24 PM
I believe when Schaub was put on IR, many of us recalled the current win streak we were on had more to do with the run game & the defense. None of that was going to change, so we thought.

We felt Leinart was going to turn the keys on to this Maserati & enjoy the ride. When he went down, we were looking at the same situation. We (or at least I) didn't think we would have to lean on the young'n to win a game for us.

That plan was canned when the defense slept through the first half of the Cincinnati game & the kid came through.

Carolina was thought to be the toughest offense we would face before the post-season & they did not disappoint. We got through the game healthy, but without the win. So what.

We got to see what would happen if we had to lean on Tj.... most of us didn't like what we saw. I thought it was a mixed bag.

I still think Kubiak is an offensive guru & will come up with a game plan over the next 6 weeks that will give us a chance to win every game.

no pressure.

:trophy:

Oh yeah, I forgot. Tj was supposed to have Aj to help him out.

I think Yates did well for a rookie who hadn't seen much action.

The only major mistake was his first INT (but it was also a good undeneath zone D by the LB getting proper depth - unlike what we often saw with our LBs under Richard Smith.)

His second INT, I think JJones needed to come back to the ball (also, it was another good defensive call by their D, switching from a 3 deep/ 4 under to 3 deep/ 5 under).

We dropped 3 balls (OD, JJones, BJohnson).
On another pass, BJohnson also needed to come back for the ball (it was more than enough for a first down, and there was a safety deep).
Tate's 10-yd catch was nullified by a penalty.
Walter went out of bound on a catch (Yates likely didn't see it???)
OD almost caught a ball that was slightly whort due to pressure.
The pass to Dreessen in the left corner was just high (but it was good location - the action was quick, not sure if Yates had time to locate JJoned underneath... maybe he did, but wanted to go for theTD anyway.)

I feel pretty confident that with time, the game will slow down a little more for Yates.

I think he can get the job done.
He just needs to continue to practice and improve everything little by little.
I believe he's ahead of the curve, JMHO!

76Texan
12-20-2011, 01:27 PM
BTW, Caldwell looked awfully GOOD!

His lateral movement had improved greatly.
His quickness downfield had also improved.
His cut block was wicked.

He still played a little high once in awhile, but made up for it with pure strength.
(Might have problem with a better DT/NT).

Overall, I like the progress Caldwell made.
We'll see how he handle the job in the next few games.

Big Lou
12-20-2011, 01:56 PM
I have been concerned about our offense even when Schaub was in. Our lack of a #2 WR is really killing us I think.

Not having a #1WR is killing us right now!!!!

Goldensilence
12-20-2011, 02:07 PM
A healthy AJ will help any QB.

Like its been said here though repeatedly no matter what round he came from any rookie QB is going to have up and downs. I'd really like to win the last 2 games to get a home playoff game and first round bye. I don't want this young team to have to go on the road and win their first playoff game.

PHAROAH
12-20-2011, 03:05 PM
The WR Position is atrocious without Andre Johnson we need to spend our #1 Draft pick and maybe our 4th Round pick on the WR position we have to address this issue going into next season.

Marcus
12-20-2011, 03:17 PM
The WR Position is atrocious without Andre Johnson we need to spend our #1 Draft pick and maybe our 4th Round pick on the WR position we have to address this issue going into next season.

No, we take the best player available at the time we pick, whether it's a WR or a dog catcher. Drafting a particular position strictly based on need is a recipe for reaching.

thunderkyss
12-20-2011, 07:39 PM
A healthy AJ will help any QB.

Like its been said here though repeatedly no matter what round he came from any rookie QB is going to have up and downs. I'd really like to win the last 2 games to get a home playoff game and first round bye. I don't want this young team to have to go on the road and win their first playoff game.

We've clinched the division. Regardless what happens from here on out, we will get a home playoff game. If we go on the road, it's because we already won that game.

Division winners all get home play-off games.

If we get the 1 or 2 seed, we will have the possibility of having 2 home games. We'll have the "bye" of Wild-card weekend, then we'll play a home game in the division round. If the #1 seed loses, then our next game would also be a home game. If we are the #1 seed & win, the 2nd game, the AFC Championship game would be here in Houston.

As the #3 seed, if we win we'll advance & play the #2 seed on the road. The winner of the #4 vs #5 seed would advance to play the #1 seed. If the #4/5 seed beats the #1 seed & we beat the #2 seed, we'll host the AFC Championship game.

thunderkyss
12-20-2011, 07:45 PM
The WR Position is atrocious without Andre Johnson we need to spend our #1 Draft pick and maybe our 4th Round pick on the WR position we have to address this issue going into next season.

I wouldn't say atrocious. There were open receivers on most plays, Tj just didn't find them.

leebigeztx
12-20-2011, 11:45 PM
We've clinched the division. Regardless what happens from here on out, we will get a home playoff game. If we go on the road, it's because we already won that game.

Division winners all get home play-off games.

If we get the 1 or 2 seed, we will have the possibility of having 2 home games. We'll have the "bye" of Wild-card weekend, then we'll play a home game in the division round. If the #1 seed loses, then our next game would also be a home game. If we are the #1 seed & win, the 2nd game, the AFC Championship game would be here in Houston.

As the #3 seed, if we win we'll advance & play the #2 seed on the road. The winner of the #4 vs #5 seed would advance to play the #1 seed. If the #4/5 seed beats the #1 seed & we beat the #2 seed, we'll host the AFC Championship game.

I think being a 3rd seed is actually best for the texans players in whole. I don't think this team is ready mentally to play its 1st playoff game against a team like Baltimore or Pittsburgh. I think it would be better to play the 6th seed, jets,titans,bengals,raiders type of squad at home vs waiting a week and playing the winner of pittsburgh/balt vs the afc west winner. Pittsburgh is beating whomever wins the afc west. Baltimore is beating whomever wins the west also.

Speedy
12-21-2011, 07:11 AM
I think being a 3rd seed is actually best for the texans players in whole. I don't think this team is ready mentally to play its 1st playoff game against a team like Baltimore or Pittsburgh. I think it would be better to play the 6th seed, jets,titans,bengals,raiders type of squad at home vs waiting a week and playing the winner of pittsburgh/balt vs the afc west winner. Pittsburgh is beating whomever wins the afc west. Baltimore is beating whomever wins the west also.

This line of thinking I just don't understand. How can you possibly think that playing a 1st round game and playing the 2nd round game on the road (IF YOU WIN) is better than skipping that game and going straight to the 2nd round at home?

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 07:28 AM
This line of thinking I just don't understand. How can you possibly think that playing a 1st round game and playing the 2nd round game on the road (IF YOU WIN) is better than skipping that game and going straight to the 2nd round at home?

I like being one home game away from the AFC Championship game.

Baltimore sucks on the road & we've already beaten Pittsburgh once @ Reliant.

I think we have a real Homefield advantage & think we should take advantage of it.

IDEXAN
12-21-2011, 07:31 AM
With Schaub at QB and AJ at a WR position the Texans offense is formidable
but without them it is ordinary at best, perhaps even inferior comparitively speaking.

Blake
12-21-2011, 07:41 AM
With Schaub at QB and AJ at a WR position the Texans offense is formidable
but without them it is ordinary at best, perhaps even inferior comparitively speaking.

I dont think anyone can refute that. If the Texans are successful from here on out it will be due to the strength of the defense and running game.

TimeKiller
12-21-2011, 07:51 AM
I think it's all about the OL right now. If they can be the elite unit they are supposed to be we'll think the world of the skill guys. If they can't move the D or hold up the rushes, well, it'll be a lot like Carolina from here on out.

TexanBacker93
12-21-2011, 07:51 AM
It is a concern. Yates has played better than we should have expected from a 3rd string, 5th round pick. If he continues to grow he could be the QB of the future after Schaub is gone. His consistency is not there yet and that will cost us. The running game needs to be strong to open up some passing lanes for him.

I thought we could have run the ball more against Carolina. Kubiak yanked Foster for a series and a half after the fumble. I get that you have to send a message, but you cost your team when you penalize your best offensive player. I like Tate, but Foster is a level above him and on at least one play in that next series (a short pass to Tate in the flat) I think Foster can get past a guy to move the sticks instead of coming up a few yards short. In the 2nd half we ran the ball better until the red zone and then Kubiak tried to outsmart everyone by throwing. 2nd and goal at the 5 after running it down their throats and we throw twice producing a FG. The last drive of the game (for us at least) on 1st and goal we run for 3 yards then we call a pass play where Yates does a Carr impression and runs out of bounds 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage. The next play is the interception. You have the best running back in the game. Give him the ball.

Going into the playoffs this team can beat anyone even with Yates. He'll have to make a few throws, but we've seen that he can do it. You're going to have to let Foster and Tate carry the load, though. It will help our D. 3 and outs, especially when little time comes off the clock because we have incompletions kills a D.

76Texan
12-21-2011, 07:53 AM
I wouldn't say atrocious. There were open receivers on most plays, Tj just didn't find them.

On most plays?

I don't see that, TK!

I'm good with TJ's decision-making for the most part.

Texan_Bill
12-21-2011, 08:00 AM
Thanks for this post. MSR, but very well thought out and explained. I have been really concerned with the last two wins, and when I expressed that some of the newer members have been very offensive about their opposing point of view. Its nice to see some of the veteran members keep their cool about their opinions, it helps to keep people on the opposite side in perspective of everything not being so bad, since I don't have to worry about defending my 'fanhood' because I have a different opinion. Thanks.

You don't know what the (bleep) you're talking about. :pirate:

:runaway:

Texan_Bill
12-21-2011, 08:01 AM
On most plays?

I don't see that, TK!

I'm good with TJ's decision-making for the most part.

Really? Have you asked yourself this question:

Why doesn't TJ roll-out nearly as often as Schaub does on play action passes??

Thorn
12-21-2011, 08:09 AM
I think the last few weeks have proven Schaub's worth to this team. I had my doubts about how long we would last in the playoffs before Schaub went down, now it's getting worse. With Schaub, I honestly don't believe we'd be one and done in the playoffs. Now, depending on who we draw, that could very well happen.

I still continue to have hope that TJ and the Texans will surprise us in the playoffs. I hope so.

Texan_Bill
12-21-2011, 08:17 AM
I'm concerned with how offensive Thorn can be.. :cowboy1:

76Texan
12-21-2011, 08:33 AM
Really? Have you asked yourself this question:

Why doesn't TJ roll-out nearly as often as Schaub does on play action passes??

Yes, he did, Bill!

How many times do you think Schaub roll out on the average?

It's a call to be made by the coaches, any way.
The QB can't decide to roll out by himself.

76Texan
12-21-2011, 08:36 AM
I'm concerned with how offensive Thorn can be.. :cowboy1:

I'm concerned with how offensive TB can be more than I'm concerned with Thorn! :worldpeace:

Playoffs
12-21-2011, 09:03 AM
No, not really.

I don't think there's a better offensive mind for this situation than Kubes.

Execution concerns, injury concerns ... sure.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 09:06 AM
I dont think anyone can refute that. If the Texans are successful from here on out it will be due to the strength of the defense and running game.

I dont think anyone can refute that. If the Texans are successful from here on out it will be due to the strength of the defense and running game.

I dont think anyone can refute that. If the Texans are successful from here on out it will be due to the strength of the defense and running game.

I dont think anyone can refute that. If the Texans are successful from here on out it will be due to the strength of the defense and running game.

I dont think anyone can refute that. If the Texans are successful from here on out it will be due to the strength of the defense and running game.

I dont think anyone can refute that. If the Texans are successful from here on out it will be due to the strength of the defense and running game.

If we keep saying it, maybe they'll understand.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 09:09 AM
In the 2nd half we ran the ball better until the red zone and then Kubiak tried to outsmart everyone by throwing. 2nd and goal at the 5 after running it down their throats and we throw twice producing a FG. The last drive of the game (for us at least) on 1st and goal we run for 3 yards then we call a pass play where Yates does a Carr impression and runs out of bounds 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage. The next play is the interception. You have the best running back in the game. Give him the ball.


DeJa Vu

:voodoo:

Texan_Bill
12-21-2011, 09:12 AM
Yes, he did, Bill!

How many times do you think Schaub roll out on the average?

It's a call to be made by the coaches, any way.
The QB can't decide to roll out by himself.

Schaub doesn't drop straight back on a play action pass nearly as often as Yates does which tells me his (Yates) vision downfield is not nearly as good as Schaub's. Schaub can roll out and see three areas of the field. Yates drops straight back more often because it cuts the field into two rather than three parts?

That said ask yourself another question and answer it honestly. When Yates does roll-out how often do you see him throw back across the field? How often does he throw in front of him or even a little towards the middle of the field.

I'm not saying that it's a drastic difference but more of subtle difference in play calling for Yates v. Schaub.

I'm not going to break down video because I do have a job, but I know what my eyes see. So let's not turn this into the "Great Debate", because I'm not interested.
:worldpeace:

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 09:12 AM
I think the last few weeks have proven Schaub's worth to this team. I had my doubts about how long we would last in the playoffs before Schaub went down, now it's getting worse. With Schaub, I honestly don't believe we'd be one and done in the playoffs. Now, depending on who we draw, that could very well happen.

I still continue to have hope that TJ and the Texans will surprise us in the playoffs. I hope so.

I hear what you're saying.

I'm still holding out hope that Aj will come back & have a strong run to the Super Bowl.

Aj changes this offense, it's a whole new game, more so than Schaub (I think).

Nothing against Matt, but I'd be just as worried with Matt & no Aj as I am with Tj & no Aj...

Andre Johnson is a game changer. I have yet to reach that conclusion about Schaub.

Texan_Bill
12-21-2011, 09:13 AM
I'm concerned with how offensive TB can be more than I'm concerned with Thorn! :worldpeace:

:foottap: Bastage!

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 09:15 AM
Schaub doesn't drop straight back on a play action pass nearly as often as Yates does which tells me his (Yates) vision downfield is not nearly as good as Schaub's. Schaub can roll out and see three areas of the field. Yates drops straight back more often because it cuts the field into two rather than three parts?


Rolling out of the pocket should make it easier for a young QB. You're pretty much cutting off half the field. (That throw back we do to the opposite side isn't something that's "normal" we started that this year & I've seen other teams doing it as well).

But, rolling out tells your young'n to focus on that half of the field. Should be easier.

infantrycak
12-21-2011, 09:19 AM
Schaub doesn't drop straight back on a play action pass nearly as often as Yates does which tells me his (Yates) vision downfield is not nearly as good as Schaub's. Schaub can roll out and see three areas of the field. Yates drops straight back more often because it cuts the field into two rather than three parts?

That said ask yourself another question and answer it honestly. When Yates does roll-out how often do you see him throw back across the field? How often does he throw in front of him or even a little towards the middle of the field.

I'm not saying that it's a drastic difference but more of subtle difference in play calling for Yates v. Schaub.

I'm not going to break down video because I do have a job, but I know what my eyes see. So let's not turn this into the "Great Debate", because I'm not interested.
:worldpeace:

I concur in your observations. Like you I am not going to try to go back and prove them.

LOL at the comment by someone up thread about Yates running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. We haven't seen that in years.

HOU-TEX
12-21-2011, 09:23 AM
I concur in your observations. Like you I am not going to try to go back and prove them.

LOL at the comment by someone up thread about Yates running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. We haven't seen that in years.

That's exactly what I told a buddy of mine when that happened. Bad memories!

I never really understood why some QB's do that. They're out of the pocket, just toss the damn ball to a cameraman or something. Or, they're clueless of where the sticks are located.

76Texan
12-21-2011, 09:37 AM
Schaub doesn't drop straight back on a play action pass nearly as often as Yates does which tells me his (Yates) vision downfield is not nearly as good as Schaub's. Schaub can roll out and see three areas of the field. Yates drops straight back more often because it cuts the field into two rather than three parts?

That said ask yourself another question and answer it honestly. When Yates does roll-out how often do you see him throw back across the field? How often does he throw in front of him or even a little towards the middle of the field.

I'm not saying that it's a drastic difference but more of subtle difference in play calling for Yates v. Schaub.

I'm not going to break down video because I do have a job, but I know what my eyes see. So let's not turn this into the "Great Debate", because I'm not interested.
:worldpeace:
I'm not sure I understand your point, Bill.

Whether the QB drops straight back or rolls out depend on the play call.

Where the QB throws the ball on the roll-out also depends on the play call (and the pass pattern the receivers are running.)

I have no problem with where TJ was going with the ball.
And yes, I did see him throw back a little toward the inside from where he was going.

I won't ask you to go back and review anything.
I do have a job also (for a long while now) but I do pretty much nothing else besides that but watching football so maybe tonight I can take a long look at those plays (not that I haven't watched them at least half a dozen times already).

Maybe I'll see what you saw; but I need to make sure what your points are first, so please clarify them for me one more time please!

TejasTom
12-21-2011, 09:59 AM
I wouldn't say atrocious. There were open receivers on most plays, Tj just didn't find them.

On most plays?

I don't see that, TK!

I'm good with TJ's decision-making for the most part.

76 were you at the game? Because the cameras usually follow the ball and the open guy doesn't necessarily make it on TV.

I don't know if I would say most plays, but definitely several plays guys were wide open down field (no one with 10 yards or more) and Yates was checking down.

TheMatrix31
12-21-2011, 10:01 AM
I'm concerned. We need to score points. I don't want some Jets-like BS where we rely on defense but we can't score an effin' lick and we lose 16-13 or something.

We need Andre back badly. Space the field. Open it up so that the run game can dominate and that OD and Dreesen have a bit more open field to work with.

PHAROAH
12-21-2011, 10:03 AM
I wouldn't say atrocious. There were open receivers on most plays, Tj just didn't find them.I'm looking at the body work not one game and not just this season we have been dealing with a sub-par group other than Andre Johnson, it's time for an upgrade at the position or more like an overhaul IMO.

RunTexans
12-21-2011, 11:00 AM
It is a concern. Yates has played better than we should have expected from a 3rd string, 5th round pick. If he continues to grow he could be the QB of the future after Schaub is gone. His consistency is not there yet and that will cost us. The running game needs to be strong to open up some passing lanes for him.

I thought we could have run the ball more against Carolina. Kubiak yanked Foster for a series and a half after the fumble. I get that you have to send a message, but you cost your team when you penalize your best offensive player. I like Tate, but Foster is a level above him and on at least one play in that next series (a short pass to Tate in the flat) I think Foster can get past a guy to move the sticks instead of coming up a few yards short. In the 2nd half we ran the ball better until the red zone and then Kubiak tried to outsmart everyone by throwing. 2nd and goal at the 5 after running it down their throats and we throw twice producing a FG. The last drive of the game (for us at least) on 1st and goal we run for 3 yards then we call a pass play where Yates does a Carr impression and runs out of bounds 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage. The next play is the interception. You have the best running back in the game. Give him the ball.

Going into the playoffs this team can beat anyone even with Yates. He'll have to make a few throws, but we've seen that he can do it. You're going to have to let Foster and Tate carry the load, though. It will help our D. 3 and outs, especially when little time comes off the clock because we have incompletions kills a D.


THIS ^^^^!!!

you've got to drop your pride and ego and go with your Pro Bowler!! your play maker!!

I dont care if you have to design plays to get Arian the ball, just get it done...I'm sorry but you try to "send a message" to your star player is like benching your QB cause he threw a pick, just isnt smart!

get Arian the ball in the flats, over the middle, running, screens whatever!! just get it done Kub!

the game shouldnt of been what it was, and the next shouldnt either, use the run to set up the pass...and get your play maker the ball...simple!

TexansBull
12-21-2011, 11:57 AM
Are you guys ready for this debate to continue into next year. If Schaub is back on time for the regular season, wait for the first loss and the crowd to scream TJ. If Schaub is not back and goes on the PUP, the crowd will either get their fill for TJ(I suspect some Denny Green"they were who we thought they were...) or TJ will keep the job, with the crowd screaming for Schaub and Kubiaks head. Either way I shall be entertained.

Then we have the Wadegate, Mariogate, playoff expectation after coming off our first playoff experience(feels good to say), possibly an Luck vs. Manning drama, etc.

Should make for another interesting and emotional football year. I can't wait! :texflag:

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 12:41 PM
I'm concerned. We need to score points. I don't want some Jets-like BS where we rely on defense but we can't score an effin' lick and we lose 16-13 or something.



Fumbles on the goal line, that INT in the endzone, turnovers on our part..... we've been moving the ball pretty well.

I think we'll be scoring like the Texans by the time we play our first play-off game.

Texecutioner
12-21-2011, 12:55 PM
What the hell are you guys smoking?? Lol!

What is all this talk about TJ Yates and Schaub and a QB controversy??

TJ Yates hasn't shown anything to suggest that he can supplant Schaub right now. Not even close. Once again, I'll remind people that Schaub is a top 10 QB with several 4,000 yard seasons on his belt and moves this offense up and down the field better than the majority of QB's in this league. TJ Yates is an unproven rookie that got the benefit of playing with a team that was on a hot streak with the best defense in the NFL and the best running game in the NFL and won two games as a starter playing mainly as a game manager. He had a nice comeback drive and has had shown potential. I'm happy to see that. But to sit here and even suggest that their should be a QB controversy going into next season based off of what we've seen so far by Yates is ridiculous and nothing more than being overly optimistic in a rookie that has yet to show that he is anywhere near running an offense like what Schaub has done for years.

Texan_Bill
12-21-2011, 02:35 PM
I concur in your observations. Like you I am not going to try to go back and prove them.

LOL at the comment by someone up thread about Yates running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. We haven't seen that in years.

I'm not sure I understand your point, Bill.

Whether the QB drops straight back or rolls out depend on the play call.

Where the QB throws the ball on the roll-out also depends on the play call (and the pass pattern the receivers are running.)

I have no problem with where TJ was going with the ball.
And yes, I did see him throw back a little toward the inside from where he was going.

I won't ask you to go back and review anything.
I do have a job also (for a long while now) but I do pretty much nothing else besides that but watching football so maybe tonight I can take a long look at those plays (not that I haven't watched them at least half a dozen times already).

Maybe I'll see what you saw; but I need to make sure what your points are first, so please clarify them for me one more time please!

I've seen and participated in enough football that I can usually tell when something passes or doesn't pass the eyeball test.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 03:29 PM
What the hell are you guys smoking?? Lol!


But to sit here and even suggest that their should be a QB controversy going into next season based off of what we've seen so far by Yates is ridiculous and nothing more than being overly optimistic in a rookie that has yet to show that he is anywhere near running an offense like what Schaub has done for years.

I believe the conversation is still in the if Tj excells over the next few games phase. I don't believe anyone has called for Tj to replace Schaub "based off of what we've seen so far"

I may be wrong, if so, please show me.

TexansBull
12-21-2011, 04:56 PM
What the hell are you guys smoking?? Lol!

What is all this talk about TJ Yates and Schaub and a QB controversy??

TJ Yates hasn't shown anything to suggest that he can supplant Schaub right now. Not even close. Once again, I'll remind people that Schaub is a top 10 QB with several 4,000 yard seasons on his belt and moves this offense up and down the field better than the majority of QB's in this league. TJ Yates is an unproven rookie that got the benefit of playing with a team that was on a hot streak with the best defense in the NFL and the best running game in the NFL and won two games as a starter playing mainly as a game manager. He had a nice comeback drive and has had shown potential. I'm happy to see that. But to sit here and even suggest that their should be a QB controversy going into next season based off of what we've seen so far by Yates is ridiculous and nothing more than being overly optimistic in a rookie that has yet to show that he is anywhere near running an offense like what Schaub has done for years.

So you are not ready?

Remember the Schaub vs Sage? I am predicting that this conversation will continue into next season because of two things:

1. Schaub may be out at the beginning of the season. Opens the door for "its TJ's job to lose."
2. TJ plays not terrible. That's all he needs to do for people to get on his wagon. It will be the "he has upside, younger, etc."

I never said it should happen or calling for it, but I think it will just because its the nature of things. So start pulling your hair out now. I personally don't care as long as we win at the best level. If its TJ cool. Great story. If its Schaub cool. Great story.

Now if TJ sucks and Schaub is healthy its not going to happen but I think Schaub will miss some time. I still don't know about TJ, but he hasn't been terrible so far by some people's accounts.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 05:07 PM
2. TJ plays not terrible. That's all he needs to do for people to get on his wagon. It will be the "he has upside, younger, etc."


Hell, if Tj has one great throw... sets us up for an Arian Foster TD.... & the run game & defense plays lights out to win our first play-off game, we'll have a frenzy.

If we win a play-off game & Yates has a 53 QBR, they'll still want him as our starter.

:cow:

TexansBull
12-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Hell, if Tj has one great throw... sets us up for an Arian Foster TD.... & the run game & defense plays lights out to win our first play-off game, we'll have a frenzy.

If we win a play-off game & Yates has a 53 QBR, they'll still want him as our starter.

:cow:

Exactly. Be prepared. Like I said, I am indifferent but will enjoy the show.

infantrycak
12-21-2011, 05:19 PM
If we win a play-off game & Yates has a 53 QBR, they'll still want him as our starter.


Yes there will be much discussion, a frenzy even. And "they" will still be wrong.

Norg
12-21-2011, 05:21 PM
Well maybe if yates sucks it up in the playoff game we will be seeing. Jake or garcia. Lol

TheMatrix31
12-22-2011, 01:09 AM
Even if Yates wins us the freakin Super Bowl, Schaub is still Week 1 starter if he is healthy by then.

76Texan
12-22-2011, 02:47 AM
Schaub doesn't drop straight back on a play action pass nearly as often as Yates does which tells me his (Yates) vision downfield is not nearly as good as Schaub's. Schaub can roll out and see three areas of the field. Yates drops straight back more often because it cuts the field into two rather than three parts?

That said ask yourself another question and answer it honestly. When Yates does roll-out how often do you see him throw back across the field? How often does he throw in front of him or even a little towards the middle of the field.

I'm not saying that it's a drastic difference but more of subtle difference in play calling for Yates v. Schaub.

I'm not going to break down video because I do have a job, but I know what my eyes see. So let's not turn this into the "Great Debate", because I'm not interested.
:worldpeace:

I'm not sure I understand your point, Bill.

Whether the QB drops straight back or rolls out depend on the play call.

Where the QB throws the ball on the roll-out also depends on the play call (and the pass pattern the receivers are running.)

I have no problem with where TJ was going with the ball.
And yes, I did see him throw back a little toward the inside from where he was going.

I won't ask you to go back and review anything.
I do have a job also (for a long while now) but I do pretty much nothing else besides that but watching football so maybe tonight I can take a long look at those plays (not that I haven't watched them at least half a dozen times already).

Maybe I'll see what you saw; but I need to make sure what your points are first, so please clarify them for me one more time please!

OK, Bill.
After spending 5 hours rewatching 4 games, matching them up wih the game books for quick reference to pass play, I think I can see what you're getting at.

However, your main point didn't show up on any of those game films.
There wasn't any naked bootleg where the QB had time to set up for a transcontinental pass (all the way back to the other side) or a pass to the middle.
(There were highlights of a few plays from other games that demonstrate this, but there was none in these four games.)

An exception that could have happened (but didn't) was in the Bengals game, where TJ had the chance for a quick set up to throw to OD in the middle of the field, but TJ was too gung ho on the sprint out and didn't see OD.
He also didn't see JJ who was also open along the side line.

76Texan
12-22-2011, 03:01 AM
OK, Bill.
After spending 5 hours rewatching 4 games, matching them up wih the game books for quick reference to pass play, I think I can see what you're getting at.

However, your main point didn't show up on any of those game films.
There wasn't any naked bootleg where the QB had time to set up for a transcontinental pass (all the way back to the other side) or a pass to the middle.
(There were highlights of a few plays from other games that demonstrate this, but there was none in these four games.)

An exception that could have happened (but didn't) was in the Bengals game, where TJ had the chance for a quick set up to throw to OD in the middle of the field, but TJ was too gung ho on the sprint out and didn't see OD.
He also didn't see JJ who was also open along the side line.

That said, let me count the numbers for you (I don't think I missed any).

In the Panthers game, there were 3 calls for TJ to roll out.
The only one play he had a chance to throw across the body was when he rolled left and pass to a TE.

In the Bengals game, there were 5 roll-out/boot leg plays called.
None had an opportunity.

Against the Bucs, Schaub had 4 plays called for him, with 2 throws near the middle. However, both of these plays were away from the short side of the field. Schaub had plenty of room to roll-out and plenty of time to look for the receivers who were open (Both were short passes.)

Against the Browns, Schaub had 2 plays called for him, with no such opportunity.

True that TJ had more attempts than Schaub in the 2 games vs. 2 games; however, there weren't anything to differentiate even after we pro-rate the number of attempts.

I can see your point, but it wasn't relevant/significant in this sample size.

My point is still there: It depends on the play call.
It seems more like we scheme based on the opponents.
There wasn't any call for neither TJ nor Schaub to set up camp and throw from the bootleg in these four games.

76Texan
12-22-2011, 03:06 AM
76 were you at the game? Because the cameras usually follow the ball and the open guy doesn't necessarily make it on TV.

I don't know if I would say most plays, but definitely several plays guys were wide open down field (no one with 10 yards or more) and Yates was checking down.

No, TjT, I was not at the game.

I watched each play in slow motion several times.
When I need to, I take screen shots of each play (anywhere from 20 to 150 shots).
I look at the receivers patterns.
I look at the coverage.
I try to see how the offense tries to attack the coverage and vice versa.
Why this guy runs this route, the next guy runs that route, and so forth.
I watch the QB's read progression.
I take into accounts what the analysts said.
(In this case, both Ron Pitts and Charles Davis used to play DB).

On one play, for example, one receiver could run a clearing route for another.
As soon as the QB saw that the deep receiver had taken away coverage that frees up his real target, the QB would go there with the ball.

That's the essence of the WCO from what I learned.

You probably know this already, but it can't hurt to revisit.
Kubiak's version is a ball-control offense that strive for balance between running and passing.
Not only that, it aims to control the clock.
Occasionally, we will look for a big play.
Preferably, however, we like to go the length of the field in 15 or more plays, eating as much time as possible.
(Take what the defense gives you; stretching the field horizontally rather than trying to stretch the field vertically).
Especially with a RB corp (including Casey) that can catch balls out of the backfield.

I came back and rewatched the first half again.
I'm pretty positive that there was nothing more that Yates could have done in the first quarter.
In the second quarter, there were 3 or 4 instances that we cannot see downfield.
The coverage was supposed to be there (by design).
If there was some blatant mis-assignment by the DBs, I can't see it.
At the same time, I don't hear neither analyst mention anything of the sort.

They were still possibilities, but doubtful (to me).
Perhaps we can come back to them next week.
I can bring up the plays with screen shots.
Some of you who went to the game may be able to tell us something we can't see.

I didn't have much time to revisit the second half in details (you can see why after my posts responding to TB.)

Nitrofish
12-22-2011, 03:31 AM
Showing vanilla O the next two games.

Kubes is putting in a special O for TJ, making use of his 'better than Schaub' athletic abilities .

Gonna suprise everyone in the playoffs with previously unseen offensive plays.

Championship!:trophy:

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

:coffee:

Great thought... Knowing Kubiak this could be exactly what he is doing.

Nitrofish
12-22-2011, 03:55 AM
Walter went out of bound on a catch (Yates likely didn't see it???)


You know that was a major drive killer and to be honest I am completely baffled at that rule. Now I can understand if an offensive player intentionally runs out of bounds to gain an advantage then comes back in for the catch being a penalty, but if he is forced out of bounds by a defender, why should it be called a penalty? Why should the defender get an advantage using the sideline to nullify the player?

If that is the rule then why not instruct all CB's to push the outside WR's out of bounds within the first 5 yards of their routes to nullify outside threats leaving the CB to cover other players without worry that the WR pushed out of bounds could touch the ball first?

Perhaps TJ didn't see him go out of bounds, but more likely that with all the things going through his head, (coverage, check down, pass rush) that rule was not one of them.

Perhaps someone can explain to us why that rule is in place, and why there is no exception if the player is forced out by the defender.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 07:31 AM
Even if Yates wins us the freakin Super Bowl, Schaub is still Week 1 starter if he is healthy by then.

Why?

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 07:41 AM
You know that was a major drive killer and to be honest I am completely baffled at that rule. Now I can understand if an offensive player intentionally runs out of bounds to gain an advantage then comes back in for the catch being a penalty, but if he is forced out of bounds by a defender, why should it be called a penalty? Why should the defender get an advantage using the sideline to nullify the player?

If that is the rule then why not instruct all CB's to push the outside WR's out of bounds within the first 5 yards of their routes to nullify outside threats leaving the CB to cover other players without worry that the WR pushed out of bounds could touch the ball first?

Perhaps TJ didn't see him go out of bounds, but more likely that with all the things going through his head, (coverage, check down, pass rush) that rule was not one of them.

Perhaps someone can explain to us why that rule is in place, and why there is no exception if the player is forced out by the defender.

I'm fine with the rule. What you saw, was the difference between Andre Johnson & Kevin Walter. Andre would win that battle.

To me, the WRs have too much of the game in their favor. This is a good one for the CBs..... even the force out rule, before a receiver could catch the ball & it would be called a catch if the DB pushed him out of bounds before getting his feet in bounds. Now, if he's pushed out, it's not a catch.

You're right, more DBs need to be taught to use that sideline, especially if the WR lines up that close to the sideline & wants an outside route (which KDub wanted). The DB has 5 yards to force him out...... If a catch is made, that DB needs to be there to force the WR out..

Think about it though. The DB has no idea where the WR wants to go, when the WR will make a break, when to expect the ball. The DB has to defend the out, the comeback, the curl, the slant, the post, the 9, the skinny post, the fade & he can't touch him after 5 yards, can't hit a defenseless receiver...

Nah, giving the sideline to the DB is a good move to me.

infantrycak
12-22-2011, 09:01 AM
Why?

Because he is clearly better to anyone other than Ray Charles.

Texecutioner
12-22-2011, 11:25 AM
Even if Yates wins us the freakin Super Bowl, Schaub is still Week 1 starter if he is healthy by then.

If Yates won the SB, he'd become the starter and make no mistake about that.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 11:40 AM
Because he is clearly better to anyone other than Ray Charles.

How do you know this?

The man said if Yates wins us the Super Bowl, while I understand the QB getting too much credit/blame, but if someone says "Yates wins us a Super Bowl" I'm taking that to mean Yates' play won the game.


If Yates is playing at a level good enough to get us to & win the Super Bowl (meaning he is playing much better than he is now), then why would you not start him?

ObsiWan
12-22-2011, 12:10 PM
If Yates won the SB, he'd become the starter and make no mistake about that.

How do you know this?

The man said if Yates wins us the Super Bowl, while I understand the QB getting too much credit/blame, but if someone says "Yates wins us a Super Bowl" I'm taking that to mean Yates' play won the game.


If Yates is playing at a level good enough to get us to & win the Super Bowl (meaning he is playing much better than he is now), then why would you not start him?

Depends on how the games play out....

I suspect that if Yates plays lights out and is truly responsible for us getting to then winning the Super Bowl with back-to-back 250-300 yd/multi-TD games, then you have a very strong argument for T.J. coming back as the 2012 starter.

OTOH, if Yates is mostly a caretaker/game manager and the real reason we won those games was due to 250+ yds and multi-TD games from Foster & Tate plus defensive shutdowns, takeaways, and scoring, then most likely Schaub gets his job back come next season.

Poor Matty HotTub... he's no longer even in the equation...

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 03:01 PM
Depends on how the games play out....

I suspect that if Yates plays lights out and is truly responsible for us getting to then winning the Super Bowl with back-to-back 250-300 yd/multi-TD games, then you have a very strong argument for T.J. coming back as the 2012 starter.

OTOH, if Yates is mostly a caretaker/game manager and the real reason we won those games was due to 250+ yds and multi-TD games from Foster & Tate plus defensive shutdowns, takeaways, and scoring, then most likely Schaub gets his job back come next season.


That's the way I see it.

TexansBull
12-22-2011, 03:59 PM
Depends on how the games play out....

I suspect that if Yates plays lights out and is truly responsible for us getting to then winning the Super Bowl with back-to-back 250-300 yd/multi-TD games, then you have a very strong argument for T.J. coming back as the 2012 starter.

OTOH, if Yates is mostly a caretaker/game manager and the real reason we won those games was due to 250+ yds and multi-TD games from Foster & Tate plus defensive shutdowns, takeaways, and scoring, then most likely Schaub gets his job back come next season.

Poor Matty HotTub... he's no longer even in the equation...

Its a "was he more like trent dilfer or more like tom brady his first year?" type of thing. If the team won in spite of him we go with schaub. If TJ plays lights out then schaub may be the back up.

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 04:30 PM
Its a "was he more like trent dilfer or more like tom brady his first year?" type of thing. If the team won in spite of him we go with schaub. If TJ plays lights out then schaub may be the back up.

Sounds reasonable.

Not very likely, but reasonable.

bckey
12-22-2011, 08:42 PM
Great thought... Knowing Kubiak this could be exactly what he is doing.

Kubiak isn't that smart. He usually loses when he has too much time to think.:kitten:

kiwitexansfan
12-22-2011, 08:59 PM
Pencil me in as a yes....

texanmojo
12-22-2011, 09:27 PM
This team isn't going anywhere with this offense.

Wolf
12-22-2011, 09:27 PM
yep I am very concerned

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 09:40 PM
This team isn't going anywhere with this offense.

I guarantee you, this offense is going to look much, much better by the time we play our first play-off game.

edo783
12-22-2011, 10:15 PM
I guarantee you, this offense is going to look much, much better by the time we play our first play-off game.

I assume you are counting on AJ being the main component to that and may very well be. If not, we will have great difficulty winning a playoff game against teams that can put up points. We are just NOT able to do the shootout thing with TJ yet and the defense seems to wear down a bit in the 4th due to having more playing time put on them. If we can streatch the field and keep the defense honest, we can win.

bckey
12-22-2011, 11:38 PM
I guarantee you, this offense is going to look much, much better by the time we play our first play-off game.


You are a homer of the worst kind. Not objectivity at all. Totally 100% homer. Fellow TT members can put you on ignore and not miss anything because all your posts are predictably pro Texan. Yeah. Go texans! :toropalm:

76Texan
12-22-2011, 11:47 PM
That said, let me count the numbers for you (I don't think I missed any).

In the Panthers game, there were 3 calls for TJ to roll out.
The only one play he had a chance to throw across the body was when he rolled left and pass to a TE.

In the Bengals game, there were 5 roll-out/boot leg plays called.
None had an opportunity.

Against the Bucs, Schaub had 4 plays called for him, with 2 throws near the middle. However, both of these plays were away from the short side of the field. Schaub had plenty of room to roll-out and plenty of time to look for the receivers who were open (Both were short passes.)

Against the Browns, Schaub had 2 plays called for him, with no such opportunity.

True that TJ had more attempts than Schaub in the 2 games vs. 2 games; however, there weren't anything to differentiate even after we pro-rate the number of attempts.

I can see your point, but it wasn't relevant/significant in this sample size.

My point is still there: It depends on the play call.
It seems more like we scheme based on the opponents.
There wasn't any call for neither TJ nor Schaub to set up camp and throw from the bootleg in these four games.

TB, you must have seen TJ take a few throws across the body today off the roll-out.
The kid can do it.
I've seen him done it well in college.

Everything Schaub does, Yates can do.
It's just a matter of learning the next level.
In my book, TJ is a good way ahead of the learning curve.

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 02:51 PM
I assume you are counting on AJ being the main component to that and may very well be. If not, we will have great difficulty winning a playoff game against teams that can put up points. We are just NOT able to do the shootout thing with TJ yet and the defense seems to wear down a bit in the 4th due to having more playing time put on them. If we can streatch the field and keep the defense honest, we can win.


Who are these top offenses we are going to face in the play-offs?
When do you think we will see them? WC? Division? AFC Championship?


We're not going to win a game in a shootout anyway. We didn't with Schaub, we won't with Yates.

Only New England has an offense powerful enough to force us into such a game. We won't play them until the AFCC

Other than that, we have just as much a chance to advance in the play-offs as anyone. We've got some improvements to be made on offense, no lie. But we've got another week to work on our mistakes, another game to try it on the field, & another week to work on mistakes before the games count.

I think we'll be ok.

& that is probably one of the most objective & realistic projections I've seen in the last 24 hours.