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View Full Version : How much longer do we give Carr????


Texas_Thrill
04-29-2005, 02:50 PM
I wasn't sold on carr when we drafted him but I really liked his grimey play after that first year I was sold.

However I wonder how long does the franchise give him before they can say he isn't a franchise QB?

Just want ya'll thoughts don't think I'm abandoning ship here with carr. We clearly didn't help him not drafting any lineman but with Young and Mcneal coming out in two years possibly its something I think we should at least THINK about.

rittenhouserobz
04-29-2005, 03:10 PM
I wasn't sold on carr when we drafted him but I really liked his grimey play after that first year I was sold.

However I wonder how long does the franchise give him before they can say he isn't a franchise QB?

Just want ya'll thoughts don't think I'm abandoning ship here with carr. We clearly didn't help him not drafting any lineman but with Young and Mcneal coming out in two years possibly its something I think we should at least THINK about.

You can keep Vince Young. I can't stand 75% RB/ 25% QB. It does a real disservice to the QB position. Carr should get to start until we have a decent OL. If our OL starts to give him any amount of time and he still cannot connect, then it my be time. Right now is not the time.

El Tejano
04-29-2005, 03:26 PM
I give him this year and if his TDs are significantly higher than his INTs, then I think we start tapping him on the shoulder.

Does anyone think it is out of the question to expect 20 TDs and about 12 INTs this year?

THEFUTURE
04-29-2005, 03:26 PM
if our line can protect like it did in passing situations in the first half of the season, we will be fine, Carr lit up teams like Minnesota most notably when he was getting time... Carr will be our QB and hopefully will retire as it, Brett Favreish hopefully, Carr can already run, 2nd in QB rushing yards, so its not like he is mollases back there in the pocket

Dime
04-29-2005, 03:38 PM
Two more years.. If we dont make the playoffs this year, its the coaches fault, after that... its Carrs (grin). BTW.. he is a decent QB, but he throws alot of his passes behind the reciever instead of to them.

rittenhouserobz
04-29-2005, 03:42 PM
Two more years.. If we dont make the playoffs this year, its the coaches fault, after that... its Carrs (grin). BTW.. he is a decent QB, but he throws alot of his passes behind the reciever instead of to them.
You get more arc when you are falling backward. :)

Dime
04-29-2005, 03:50 PM
You get more arc when you are falling backward. :)

Do you mean he can see where he is throwing? :whistle:

jagsfanincanada
04-29-2005, 03:51 PM
if our line can protect like it did in passing situations in the first half of the season, we will be fine, Carr lit up teams like Minnesota most notably when he was getting time... Carr will be our QB and hopefully will retire as it, Brett Favreish hopefully, Carr can already run, 2nd in QB rushing yards, so its not like he is mollases back there in the pocket

It's not too hard to light up Minnesota...well at least it wasn't last year.

keyfro
04-29-2005, 03:55 PM
i think 20td's and 12ints is about par with the rest of the league...i'd hope for more than 20td's but if he's throwing almost 2 td's for every 1 int that's pretty good...you also have to look at him completion percentage...if he's around 64% he's doing pretty good...if he's QB rating is around 80 he's doing great...personally i didn't see a lot of problems with carr last year...i saw a lot of problems with inconsitant play around him...with the o-line and our running game...i think we have the recievers in place for him we just need better pass protection and a more consitant running game...cause if morency and davis can average 4.1 yds a carry...then carr's QB rating will go from 75ish to 82ish

F-minus67
04-29-2005, 03:56 PM
Carr was doing a great job until AJ started to get doubled covered every game and he started to depend on DD to much. If Joppru can stay healthly Carr will finally have his break out season.

Grid
04-29-2005, 04:05 PM
We give him until he stops getting better. He has gotten better every year so far.


How long should we give DD?

How long should we give AJ?

How long should we give Dunta?


What is the point in questioning good players and wondering how long we should give them before we start trying to replace them?

Vinny
04-29-2005, 04:13 PM
I think I have seen enough out of Carr to know he will be here for quite a while. He has come a long way and I think he is starting to read defenses and feel the rush better. He needs to keep getting better at sliding in the pocket but that will come as the line gets better. Great QB's find a way to buy an extra second in the pocket in a hot rush.

WWJD
04-29-2005, 04:15 PM
David needs a good TE.

David needs a better performance from the offensive line.

David needs to be healthy all year for this team to do some damage.

David also needs a haircut. New style something. He got on my nerves last year messing with his hair so much. Just kidding. He's a nice looking guy.

texan279
04-29-2005, 04:17 PM
I don't think we can say anything about Carr until he has at least GOOD pass protection, not great, but good. And a TE woudln't hurt either...

Tailgate
04-29-2005, 04:17 PM
Until he RETIRES.

TexansJunkE
04-29-2005, 04:50 PM
as long as he needs. I wish some of you would get a clue, Carr is not the problem! Look at the guy calling the plays and protection calls, and the guys who are suppose to be blocking for him.

infantrycak
04-29-2005, 05:08 PM
i think 20td's and 12ints is about par with the rest of the league...i'd hope for more than 20td's but if he's throwing almost 2 td's for every 1 int that's pretty good...you also have to look at him completion percentage...if he's around 64% he's doing pretty good...if he's QB rating is around 80 he's doing great...personally i didn't see a lot of problems with carr last year...i saw a lot of problems with inconsitant play around him...with the o-line and our running game...i think we have the recievers in place for him we just need better pass protection and a more consitant running game...cause if morency and davis can average 4.1 yds a carry...then carr's QB rating will go from 75ish to 82ish

He picked up 7 more TD's last year and only one more INT. 20+ and around 12-14 INT's should happen. He had 64% completions in the 1st half of last season before the wheels fell off the pass protection, so once again something in that range should happen. He already had a QB rating of 83.5 so getting to 82ish would be back sliding IMO. Over the 1st half of last season his rating was 95.1--carrying that through this coming season is what I hope to see.

wags
04-29-2005, 05:25 PM
I think Carr is going to have a huge season. As far as replacing him goes: :slap: gimme a break.

sulli60
04-29-2005, 05:33 PM
Dom Capers is the head coach and his forte was supposed to be defense, so unless he can finally start getting some sacks I would say Dom is the first to go. I'm not a huge Palmer fan, so if the defense gets it done and the offense struggles then he could be gone. Dom Caper's style has never been a flashy offense, so I don't see too much pressure on Carr compared to Capers and Palmer.

Carr has made a few bad throws, but I've seen just as many good throws dropped. :ninja:

sulli60
04-29-2005, 05:36 PM
I wasn't sold on carr when we drafted him but I really liked his grimey play after that first year I was sold.

However I wonder how long does the franchise give him before they can say he isn't a franchise QB?

Just want ya'll thoughts don't think I'm abandoning ship here with carr. We clearly didn't help him not drafting any lineman but with Young and Mcneal coming out in two years possibly its something I think we should at least THINK about.

I love Vince Young and McNeal, but these guys aren't even a lock to get drafted (day 1 or day 2). Vince may need to switch to receiver like Matt Jones in the NFL.

keyfro
04-29-2005, 05:43 PM
i think the more important question is how much longer do we sit on this o-line and zone blocking scheme...mckinny struggles against bigger DT's...wiegert has yet to stay healthy for a whole season here in houston...and don't get me started on our o-line depth

Texas_Thrill
04-29-2005, 05:52 PM
I agree for the most part here with what everyone is saying.

I'm quite upset that we didn't do a better job addressing our line in the draft for Carr after a failed attempt at O Pace. Clearly if you are going after him you should do something more than a 5th round Center.

As far as a TE I'm so not depending on Joppru to breakout other than to break something else.

What happen to the Palmer that opened up with a DEEP BOMB on the first play against the cowboys. This conservative stuff is killing me. Let Carr OPEN up the offense some dang.

sax_49
04-29-2005, 05:53 PM
as long as he needs. I wish some of you would get a clue, Carr is not the problem! Look at the guy calling the plays and protection calls, and the guys who are suppose to be blocking for him.
I have to agree with you pretty much on this one. :thumbup

Texas_Thrill
04-29-2005, 05:56 PM
And as far as how much longer do we give

DD? I say this year since you want to know.

AJ? He's proven himself to be a STUD. When you are drawing double cov. every week you are doing the daam thing.

Dunta? Wasn't he D player of the year so I guess that answers that question.

I think you put every player under a microscope quit acting like a golden boy qb is exempt from conversation.

FILO_girl
04-29-2005, 06:35 PM
quit acting like a golden boy qb is exempt from conversation.

Where do you come off thinking this? You have been getting answers to your question....are you not happy with what you hear? I don't get why the sarcasm has to be used.

Original by texan279- I don't think we can say anything about Carr until he has at least GOOD pass protection, not great, but good. And a TE woudln't hurt either...
True that.

Originally Posted by THEFUTURE- Carr will be our QB and hopefully will retire as it, Brett Favreish hopefully.
Wouldn't that be awesome! This type of player is so scare in today's NFL. If David is allowed to play with adequate protection, I believe he can astonish alot of naysayers. Let's get the O line to step up and see if this is true.... :hmmm:

JacksonvilleJaguar4
04-29-2005, 06:36 PM
Carr will do good I know he will, he's a good guy and good QB.



LOOK FORWARD TO NEXT YEAR!

FILO_girl
04-29-2005, 06:38 PM
Carr will do good I know he will, he's a good guy and good QB.



LOOK FORWARD TO NEXT YEAR!
Hi JJ4. How goes the reflux of Hog fans at the litterbox? Has it mellowed out yet? Y'all got your hands full over there. :wacko:

GP
04-29-2005, 07:51 PM
(sigh)

Did McNabb when the Super Bowl? How long did it take him to win the NFC championship? Three times to win it. Did Jake Delhomme win the Super Bowl? Where's he been since then? Etc. etc.

It takes a complete team to when the NFL title. '85 Bears, who had one of the best defenses..but who also had a running game and clutch receiving. '72 Dolphins, who were pretty much a bunch of no-names with no real superstars other than Csonka. Patriots. Cowboys. Steelers. Packers. Those championship teams had it going on with all aspects of the game. Look at the Bills: Great team(s) but couldn't get it done. Was it Jim Kelly's fault? Nope. Was it Scott Norwood's fault (one of those was his fault).

Carr juked a player (Saints two years ago, right?) and ran it in for a score. The guy jumped over the pile and beat J-ville with no ticks on the clock...on fourth down. Came back from shoulder injury and ran the ball for a key first down, only to get dogged into the ground and re-injure his shoulder. Beat the Chiefs when the Chiefs romped us two years ago. Beat the Cowboys. Almost beat the Patriots. Almost beat the Vikings. Almost beat the Packers. Each of those losses was NOT his fault. Had our defense been better, and it should have been, we'd have won those games.

And as far as our zone blocking that somebody griped about. Were you watching the Lions game last year when the zone blocking gave DD perfect running lanes, only to have DD fumble the ball in crucial parts of the game. Same goes for San Diego. That's two wins right there that was not a result of DC's play. With just those two wins, we'd be at 9-7 and not 7-9. Our zone blocking runs well when DD holds onto the ball. He's an awesome runner, and I think those two losses to start off the season last year was a huuuuuuuuuuuge blow to our momentum.

Doesn't help that G-Funk is struggling. Doesn't help that Palmer can't call a consistent game.

There's a whole more than just the QB (on any team) that decides ballgames. When we play solid defense, it keeps the other team's defense on the field and they get tired. Thus, they can't chase DC as well as they have when we can't keep another team from converting EVERY third and long.

Solid D.

No fumbles by DD.

Carr and AJ take care of the rest.

And let's just HOPE that Palmer goes to the bathroom every other series so another coach can call some good plays.

CaptainPatriot
04-29-2005, 08:22 PM
I give him this year and if his TDs are significantly higher than his INTs, then I think we start tapping him on the shoulder.

Does anyone think it is out of the question to expect 20 TDs and about 12 INTs this year?

all depends on the O-Line. Carr will go as far as the O-Line takes him

TexFan58
04-29-2005, 09:17 PM
Carr is not the problem, our offense last season did pretty good, IT"S the defense that let us down, when the defense can shut down offenses then that will give Carr and Crew the chance to shine, But that to might be a problem with Palmer running the offense. I hope that the speed and youth on defense can pull it together this season or we will have the same thing as we did last season.

infantrycak
04-29-2005, 09:21 PM
Were you watching the Lions game last year when the zone blocking gave DD perfect running lanes, only to have DD fumble the ball in crucial parts of the game. Same goes for San Diego. That's two wins right there that was not a result of DC's play.

I agreed with almost everything else in your post, but David Carr had 3 INT's in the 1st two games--by the way, he also fumbled it twice in Detroit, same as DD--he just got lucky enough for them to be recovered by us. Points were scored off both his turnovers and DD's. This same thing has been said before, but it simply isn't accurate to lay the 1st two losses solely at DD's feet.

gg no re
04-29-2005, 09:39 PM
In truth, it's the fault of the offense for the losing season.

The offense was being too predictable/conservative and going 3 and out in the second half of almost every game last season [most of our losses... if our offense did SOMETHING in the 2nd half, I gurantee you we win].

The defense...well, when you play for the entire 2nd half, you will get tired and fall apart.

A good defense wins you games, but good defenses need a breather too.

Of course, that points the finger of blame at two groups.... the coaches and the oline.

DocBar
04-29-2005, 09:58 PM
as long as he needs. I wish some of you would get a clue, Carr is not the problem! Look at the guy calling the plays and protection calls, and the guys who are suppose to be blocking for him.
I think most of the post's on here are missing the MAIN point. This ENTIRE orginization has a grand total of 48 regular season games under its belt. That's about the length of time most realistic fans ( and the people who do this for a living!!!) take to grade a single draft. We started from scratch and have developed into a pretty darn decent team. We had 13 teams draft in front of us this year. That, in itself, is a minor miracle. It's gonna take us at least one more year to develope team chemistry and stockpile enough talent, without destroying our salary cap, to seriously compete with the big boys in this league. We have to go through our growing pains and suffer through abyssmal losses(CLEVELAND!!!! :hairpull: :bag: ) as we gain experience AND talent. Carr has done an exceptional job under less than ideal circumstances. Troy Aikman suffered through worse his 1st 2 or 3 yrs in the league. And that was with "America's Team" :patriot ) At least give the man enough time to settle down and let the team grow (build) around him like the original plan was.

Texas_Thrill
04-29-2005, 11:30 PM
FILO Girl I'm very happy with the responses given here. What upset me is that folks act like this is a question that can't be asked. As soon as you question it its like how dare I even bring it up.

I am a Carr supporter but that doesn't mean he's exempt from being questioned. This was more so to the point for the texans and any other NFL team at what point do you realize you need a new qb and go in a new direction at that position. Everyone says bringing in a new qb sets a team back 2 or 3 years.

I think Carr has been let down in this year's draft. I felt like at LEAST 3 picks should have gone to OL.

DocBar
04-29-2005, 11:41 PM
I think Carr has been let down in this year's draft. I felt like at LEAST 3 picks should have gone to OL.
I would have had lots of bad things to say and Cowboy jerseys to buy if the Texans had done that. I hate the Cowboys worse than stepping in cat poop barefooted(I hope that doesn't violate posted rules..if so, it was completely accidental and regretful). The O-line prospects were average at best. That is giving them some credit.

Texas_Thrill
04-29-2005, 11:51 PM
Maybe avg. at the Tackle slots but there was some really good talent on the inside. Maybe not a lot but enough for us to say get a guard or some real depth on the inside.

OG Brown from UVA was a prime example. We could have had him in the 3rd instead we get a RB who will play Backup????

DocBar
04-29-2005, 11:55 PM
Maybe avg. at the Tackle slots but there was some really good talent on the inside. Maybe not a lot but enough for us to say get a guard or some real depth on the inside.

OG Brown from UVA was a prime example. We could have had him in the 3rd instead we get a RB who will play Backup????
Good point, and most interior OLmen are not high draft picks. I'm kinda curious to see how some of our UDFA's pan out. Some pretty decent interior OL guys there. And Morency was reportedly the 4th highest rated rusher this draft. Not too shabby to be right behind Cadillac, Benson and Brown. He might surprise us this summer. Anyways, you make a good case.

JacksonvilleJaguar4
04-30-2005, 12:52 AM
Hi JJ4. How goes the reflux of Hog fans at the litterbox? Has it mellowed out yet? Y'all got your hands full over there. :wacko:
pretty good all the Matt Jones bandwagoners are still there spaming the board, you'll see a person there that just registered this year and already has +900 posts it's ridiculous! I think Matt Jones is a terrific athlete and will do great things in the NFL, I just don't expect anything spectacular out of him this year. Next year the bar will be raised but he has to transiton first which will be a rocky road. And in response, I think Carr will be terrific this year and for the duration of his career; David is one of the few players on your team who I like and respect and I come here to look at how you guys are prepairing for this season. For us I'm worried on how our drafted LT Barnes is going to perform I hope he gets the starting job. I also wonder about the CB we drafted I wish him luck because we need a corner to complement Rashean Mathus. Well my visits here have been great no complaints yet! I will talk later bye.



-Joey

infantrycak
04-30-2005, 01:08 AM
FILO Girl I'm very happy with the responses given here. What upset me is that folks act like this is a question that can't be asked. As soon as you question it its like how dare I even bring it up.

I am a Carr supporter but that doesn't mean he's exempt from being questioned. This was more so to the point for the texans and any other NFL team at what point do you realize you need a new qb and go in a new direction at that position. Everyone says bringing in a new qb sets a team back 2 or 3 years.

I think Carr has been let down in this year's draft. I felt like at LEAST 3 picks should have gone to OL.

OK, two separate questions really, Carr and the OL. Let's set the OL aside. What do you think Carr needs to improve upon this year? Not a stats thing necessarily, but finding the #3, feeling pressure, etc. What do you feel he has and has not improved upon in the last 3 years that concern you or make you think he will not be here for awhile (cap issues aside)?

gr8slayer
04-30-2005, 02:44 AM
I always say that every player deserves four years to fully prove himself but in Carrs case I think he deserves more like six years. Your front office has not done **** to help get him some real OL, the poor ******* is on his back more than he is on his feet. Untill you get him some help the Texans and David Carr will go no where.

Tedc
04-30-2005, 07:36 AM
Carr is a big time player on a small ball team. Capers does not give him the opportunity in normal game situations. How many times was the offense struggling only to move the ball with ease in the 2 minute offense?

His protection is key. One extra second gives AJ and others time to break away and gives David the time to get it to them. I am tired of seeing O linemen helping David up after a hard hit. Are you listening Pitts? I don't know how many times I saw him helping David up last year. Chester, the learning curve has just straightened out. Make the plays or a living driving a truck.

infantrycak
04-30-2005, 09:16 AM
That's the Texans party line of course. But then New Orleans took an OL in our spot at #13 so they clearly would disagree. Time will tell but I think we just didn't want to use our top pick on an OL even though there were indeed OL out there that were worthy of that pick. I guess CC likes seeing Carr run for his life.

The OLmen New Orleans picked may have been worth #13, but he made zero cap/improvement sense for the Texans. Wade has played one year of an expensive contract and outside of the high ankle sprain last year has been a very durable/quality player. Cutting him in favor of a rookie would accelerate all his signing bonus to this year. These decisions aren't as simple as some would make out.

Capster67
04-30-2005, 10:30 AM
One of my issues with Carr is that he has consistently trailed off in the latter parts of the season (late November/December) every year. I know he's gotten his fair of wear and tear by that time of the season every year, but a true leader finds ways of getting better as the years go on, not worse. I really worry about how he'll perform when we are in the playoff hunt at the end of the year. We can't afford any performances like those he gave us against Cleveland at home to end the season last year.

nunusguy
04-30-2005, 10:46 AM
He said the reason was there was no quality OL worthy of a #13 pick. And he's the one in charge. New Orleans disagreed with CC's assessment so strongly they were willing to part with a 3rd round pick just to make sure they got an OL in our #13 spot.
I think Cass was specifically refering to a LT offensive lineman, not a RT. I
think NO paid a ton for the Oklahoma RT, because they fetch more than guards/centers but not what top LTs bring - but they obviously wanted him bad and bad enough to pay the price to move up farther to get him.
LT Alex Barron, from what I've read, while athleticaly gifted had pitiful motivation and lacked even a basic interest in playing football, otherwise the Texans might have been interested in taking him with their 13.

Vinny
04-30-2005, 11:21 AM
That's the Texans party line of course. But then New Orleans took an OL in our spot at #13 so they clearly would disagree.No, that was what the NFL felt in general, not just the Texans. There was not one single Tackle taken in the first round that will play Left Tackle in the pros. Every singe one of them went to Right Tackle, including Barron. LEFT TACKLE is what most of you guys are complaining about. The early tackles aren't going to play the LT position and LT was so weak that NO team picked a player to man that spot from this 1st round.

Vinny
04-30-2005, 11:37 AM
Since the Rams have already announced that Barron will play RT and the Saints have Brown penciled in at RT its really not that tough.

CoachJim
04-30-2005, 11:58 AM
We can't afford any performances like those he gave us against Cleveland at home to end the season last year.

Were you watching the same game I was? DC had ZERO protection on any of the pass plays & spent the afternoon either on his back or running for his life. I can't attribute that loss to DCs inability, but I can to OLine ... JMHO.

infantrycak
04-30-2005, 12:11 PM
I realize you're a smart guy Vinny, but I didn't realize how smart. Not only do you know what every team in the NFL was thinking (amazing since those are closely guarded secrets), you can also predict exactly where on the OL every draft pick will play in the NFL before even the teams have seen the players in camp. You should be running an NFL team rather than a message board.

Well gee, there were a whopping 2 OT's taken in the 1st round. One played RT in college, was projected by just about every expert to play RT in the NFL and was drafted by a team in need of a RT. The other went to Orlando Pace's team. No offense to Vinny, but it hardly seems like rocket science to figure out none of the 1st round tackles is going to be playing LT anytime soon.

Wolf
04-30-2005, 12:38 PM
I don't think the 20 and 12 should be an unreasonable am't for carr

I don't understand everyones gripe about Wand.. It was his 1st year.. I don't have the stats in front of me but I thought that someone put some stats up that showed that Wand had a better year than Pitts did in his first year at tackle.... Interior of the line is what I find that needed work.. as I have stated in other threads .. when was the last time you saw a picture perfect pocket for Carr to step up in?

Carr should have a better year.. He gets more weapons.. He gets A RB..a WR ...and hopefully a HEALTHY TE ...

*edit*
People complain that we draft a RB in the 3rd.. People complain that we draft a QB a few years ago.. I like both.. What Morency is the same type of runner as DD.. well if DD goes down or Morency goes down.. We can still keep running our offense.. Same goes with if Carr goes down.. and ragone becomes 2nd string.. We can still run the same type of offense... Believe it or not..and we dont' get to see much of it due to OL woes.. Palmer likes to throw the long ball...Ragone and Carr can both do that...(and NO I am not jumping on the Ragone bandwagon just because NFLE... Capers himself said that (or maybe Casserly) when we drafted Ragone... Now they did the same thing with Morency... being DD gets banged up a bunch.

As far as Mathis.. hopefully he can take Bradfords spot... We still got a burner to back Bradford.. lets hope he can catch Carr's passes :heh:

Huge
04-30-2005, 03:33 PM
3 more years

SheTexan
04-30-2005, 04:07 PM
Another lame thread!!! Gezzzzzzzzzz!!!

wiley2002
04-30-2005, 05:07 PM
David needs a good TE.

David needs a better performance from the offensive line.

David needs to be healthy all year for this team to do some damage.

David also needs a haircut. New style something. He got on my nerves last year messing with his hair so much. Just kidding. He's a nice looking guy.
I prefer the buzz look but, hey, if the wife says different why fight it? The long haired Carr is kind of growing on me.

FILO_girl
04-30-2005, 07:30 PM
FILO Girl I'm very happy with the responses given here. What upset me is that folks act like this is a question that can't be asked. As soon as you question it its like how dare I even bring it up.

I am a Carr supporter but that doesn't mean he's exempt from being questioned. This was more so to the point for the texans and any other NFL team at what point do you realize you need a new qb and go in a new direction at that position. Everyone says bringing in a new qb sets a team back 2 or 3 years.

I think Carr has been let down in this year's draft. I felt like at LEAST 3 picks should have gone to OL.

Ask what you want, but be prepared for all answers. I get roasted once in awhile, no biggie. We all have opinions, and once in awhile you will find one that matches your own. LOL!
I have questioned David several times myself. It is OK to question, doesn't mean you are not a fan. Some questioning is good, shows you form your opinion on what YOU see, not on just what some hack reporter sees.

I see your frustration about the O line. I have it myself. I am not totally sold on "this year they will be better". My boss doesn't give me a full season to know my position, should we let our O line have this too? I have been told I don't see the whole picture on this. It is possible, I think I was wrong once, a long time ago...... :heh: (that was a joke)

edo783
04-30-2005, 07:31 PM
Yup, you do what the wife likes if your smart.

texan2061
04-30-2005, 08:51 PM
If he does not prove himself this season, it's time to start looking for another quarterback. Also, if the Texans does not have a winning season this season, it's time for Capers to go.

DocBar
04-30-2005, 10:03 PM
That's the Texans party line of course. But then New Orleans took an OL in our spot at #13 so they clearly would disagree. Time will tell but I think we just didn't want to use our top pick on an OL even though there were indeed OL out there that were worthy of that pick. I guess CC likes seeing Carr run for his life.
That's what I wanna do....draft average at best picks in the 1st because the 'AINTS did it. If we drafted all the top prospects this year AND signed all of last years top OL, they would still need a year or so to gel. Why is that so hard to understand? The OL is the hardest place to try to "plug and play" with different personnel.'04 was a mix of new players, players at new positions and a new scheme. Growing pains are part of the process. I hope poor draft choices don't become part of it.

DocBar
04-30-2005, 10:05 PM
Carr is a big time player on a small ball team. Capers does not give him the opportunity in normal game situations. How many times was the offense struggling only to move the ball with ease in the 2 minute offense?

His protection is key. One extra second gives AJ and others time to break away and gives David the time to get it to them. I am tired of seeing O linemen helping David up after a hard hit. Are you listening Pitts? I don't know how many times I saw him helping David up last year. Chester, the learning curve has just straightened out. Make the plays or a living driving a truck.
Dude....Pitts is pretty dang good lineman.

canadiantexan
05-01-2005, 12:16 AM
I can't believe that there is another thread questioning David Carr's ability(especialy on this message board). David ran for the second most yards in the league last year among quaterbacks. Mr. Carr also threw for more yards in the AFC than anyone except for Manning, Brady, Plummer and Trent Green thats pretty good company. David Carr has gotten better every year and I would suggest that as a rookie if he had went to a team that was'nt in it's expansion he would damn close to a pro bowler now. David is our franchise guy and will prove that to all his doubters this year.


Get aboard or get the **** out of the way!

DocBar
05-01-2005, 12:25 AM
I can't believe that there is another thread questioning David Carr's ability(especialy on this message board). David ran for the second most yards in the league last year among quaterbacks. Mr. Carr also threw for more yards in the AFC than anyone except for Manning, Brady, Plummer and Trent Green thats pretty good company. David Carr has gotten better every year and I would suggest that as a rookie if he had went to a team that was'nt in it's expansion he would damn close to a pro bowler now. David is our franchise guy and will prove that to all his doubters this year.


Get aboard or get the **** out of the way!
Um....what this guy said. By the way, if Quebec secedes and Alberta follows suit, do you think Alberta will join the states a la' Alaska? Alberta has oil.....

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 01:08 AM
When you look at this topic you have account for alot of things. #1 their are bigger fish to fry- lets just assume Carr isn't cutting the job and isnt our franchise qb (which btw he is the complete oppisite). What good is it going to do to replace him. If you do replace him your going to have to go through the whole learning curve again with another qb that has to learn the playbook all over again (which will scrap the progress we have made over the past 3 years) and on top of that your going to be throwing him behind the same Oline- which will do absolutely no good. So even if we did have a inept qb, we have a even worse oline. First things first we would still need to establish a solid ol, because it isn't going to do any good plugging another qb behind this line. If you did all that your just exposing another qb to punishment and setting him up for failure. So before we post these questions we need to get the line in order. Also what is the worst that you could say about David last year. He was probably avg. or a notch below avg. and thats behind arguably the worst line in football. Just imagine how much better he or our passing game would be behind a avg. oline, that he would be able trust in, where he could wait to the last second and be able to stand tall in the pocket. I got tired of seeing him have to fire out passes to recievers that were in the middle of running routes. One thing is for sure when he does get a solid Oline he should have great poise, cause he has been passing under fire for 3 years now.

THEFUTURE
05-01-2005, 01:35 AM
anyone that thinks we should have drafted a tackle in this draft with our first day picks are silly, capers already said the line would be returning in tact, mckinney as of now is the only one i think needs to be replaced, Wand was in his first year starting, and in a new scheme then he had been learning the year prior.. if he still has problems then fine, look to replace him... but im not looking for his head quite yet.. next is the fact that there were quality tackles, every analyst i have ever heard speak said that this years OL draft picks were all not exactly superb, that next years talent will be far greater then this years... so why take a avg at best OL, when we already have avg OL... instead we went the right route and picked up players we felt could make impacts at important positions... finally back to David Carr, he is not going anywhere, barring any bad injuries, knock on wood, he will be a sight to watch this year

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 02:01 AM
I don't care how the line gets better, whether it is through players improving of whatever, I just want it to improve FAST. Also anybody that questions Carr I dare you to bring up 3 qbs (you can go through the whole history of the league) that have suffered anything close to the # of sacks Carr has suffered and show me the #s they have put up, cause I garuantee you it isn't anything better Carr has put up. He just needs protection.

THEFUTURE
05-01-2005, 03:01 AM
i call this one, lets see what i can find, i wanna see some of these comparisons

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 03:05 AM
please do im curious to see the numbers myself

THEFUTURE
05-01-2005, 03:28 AM
ill do it tomorrow, been trying, pretty tough to see who has had the most sacks in their first three seasons, but ill keep looking... tomorow, im tired :sleep:

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 03:36 AM
I understand I'm pretty tired also, I wouldn't even know where to dig stats up like that

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 02:09 PM
he will be a sight to watch this year he was a sight to watch last year, it just wasn't a pretty sight. :shocked

I am on the fence with Carr. I saw plenty of reason's to blame the line play, early in the year. But last part of the year I saw plenty of reason's to blame Carr directly. Perhaps he was a bit 'shell shocked' from the hits during the first part of the season. Sometime soon he has to get more confidence in his line, and they have to know that he is going to step up INTO the pocket they forming and not run to his right everytime he sees a Defensive lineman coming, even if he is actually being blocked effectively. Carr had a bit too much 'flight of fright' runs last year and I would personally say about half of them were not necessary. Some of those hits he brings on himself.

I am looking forward to the line gelling together for an entire year for the first time ever, appeared some of that was happening at the end of last season. I am also hoping that it will calm Carr down some and make him more eager to step into the pocket and get that extra second or two that he seems to need to find his open receiver. One thing is for sure, Carr will never be compared to any QB who has ever played as being one with a 'quick release'.

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 02:41 PM
The only problem with that is many have agreed that pocket was collaspeing from the center postion. Mckinney rarely was able to hold his ground and on many occasions was driven straight back into Carr (obviously the coaching staff noticed also, seeing how the only Olineman the drafted was a center), so how do you expect him to step up into a pocket that collasping right on him. That is why on many occasions he took of running, becuase he was fushed out of it and many times ran right into more pressure from the edge rush. There were many sacks pinned on Wand just for that reason. Another thing is how do you expect him to trust in his line. Trust is gained over time not after a game or so. Just becuase he might get solid protection on one play doesn't mean he is going to expect it on the next. The line was too inconsistent last year. Come to think of it inconsistentcy is what our major problem is. We also had a inconsistent rb and a inconsistent defense (especially on third downs)

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 02:58 PM
we also had an inconsistant QB. :shocked

You may be, and it certainly seems so, a huge Carr fan. I'm not knocking the guy, but he ain't no Marino, or Montana either. Not by a LOOOONG shot. Carr called plenty of plays last year at the line that didn't work for diddly. He ran into the Defensive right tackle enough times to make you wonder if he was a sadist and enjoyed eating dirt. Alot of times he didn't have to. Was the pocket collapsing, yeah it sometimes did. Yet other times it was a textbook pocket and Carr still didn't step into it. Biggest knock I actually have on Carr is he has not pocket awareness. Both from the sense of recognizing where the pocket is and how to step into it and from the perspective of where the pass rush is coming from. He simply doesn't have an awareness of who is around him and where the sack seems to be coming from.

the question was how long are we going to give Carr. My answer would be next season. If he doesn't seem to improve DRAMATICALLY next season, then I would say he is and always will be an average, at best, NFL QB. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and unto itself. But he won't be getting into the HOF that way either.

Texan Dave
05-01-2005, 03:28 PM
Thegr8fan, get the stats from the first three years of some of the quarterbacks you considered to be good and compare them to Carr. Verry seldom do quarterbacks come into their own bye their 3'rd year. I think you'll find his stats to be verry simular to people such as Joe Montana, Troy Aikman,....etc,etc. I'm not saying that he's anywear near the quarterback they were. But the fact is that throwing out a verdict on a quarterback in the NFL within the first 3 or 4 years is totaly ludicrist. Perfect example, Drew Breese, and Bret Favre. Imagine, the people in Atlanta were anxious to see Favre leave. The Chargers drafted a quarteback that wanted nothing to do with them, while they had a probowler siting in their livingroom, talk about a waste of 40 million dollars, on a rookie backup.

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 03:38 PM
we also had an inconsistant QB. :shocked

You may be, and it certainly seems so, a huge Carr fan. I'm not knocking the guy, but he ain't no Marino, or Montana either. Not by a LOOOONG shot. Carr called plenty of plays last year at the line that didn't work for diddly. He ran into the Defensive right tackle enough times to make you wonder if he was a sadist and enjoyed eating dirt. Alot of times he didn't have to. Was the pocket collapsing, yeah it sometimes did. Yet other times it was a textbook pocket and Carr still didn't step into it. Biggest knock I actually have on Carr is he has not pocket awareness. Both from the sense of recognizing where the pocket is and how to step into it and from the perspective of where the pass rush is coming from. He simply doesn't have an awareness of who is around him and where the sack seems to be coming from.

the question was how long are we going to give Carr. My answer would be next season. If he doesn't seem to improve DRAMATICALLY next season, then I would say he is and always will be an average, at best, NFL QB. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and unto itself. But he won't be getting into the HOF that way either.

First of all I'm not some huge Carr fan and I know he was inconsistent at times, AS IS EVERY OTHER YOUNG QB, even the great Bret farve is inconsistent at times. There is nothing more I would rather do than to be able to judge Carr, TRUST ME I WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO FAIRLY EVELUATE HIS PROGRESS, but as of right now I see him as a boxer standing in the middle of the ring with one hand tied behind his back, with the oline being the strap. We are never going to know what we have until we're able to see what he can do behind a avg. oline. It would be a totaly different story if I was a lion fan. They have a qb that has had excellent protection and all he has been able to do is put up #s par to a qb that has started on a expansion team who has had to pick himself off the ground 140 times. I think it is pretty stupid to think that the qb position is some kind of superman that can just leap and over blitzing defenders and put up great numbers behind a insufficient line. He and everyother qb is only going to be as good as the parts around him. Also lets look at what a sack does to a drive, 8 times out of 10 it is a drive KILLER! Ill even give you more slack lets say out of those 140 sacks a 100 of them ended a drive, how much of those 100's of drives could of been touchdowns and not only are those sacks killing our production, they are putting our defense in a tight spot and giving the opposition short fields, which then cuases us to fall behind early in games, which then allows the oppositions defense to just pin their ears back and tee off on our qb, Who still has the same insufficient oline he has had the past three years. The last of our problems is the qb position. Next year if they do "Gel" and god they better OR HEADS WILL ROLL and only surrender like 20 sacks and if he doesn't improve ill be the first one to throw him under the bus.

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 03:52 PM
I have done the stats thing, many times. Carr loses when you do that. Think about it though and the stats for Carr's first 3 years are not as applicable as other QB's are cause most of them didn't start their careers with expansion teams. If the Texans were an established team and Carr had started THEN, you could compare the stats on a one-to-one basis. That situation doesn't apply here, IMHO.

Carr is not a bad QB. He ain't a great one either. Out of the 32 starting QB's in the league, I would say he is right about #16, average. Could be worse, could be better. Will he improve, maybe. Course right now the chances are 50/50 that he will improve, but they are the same that he won't either. I give him one more year, simply due to the fact that he is playing on an expansion team, to show me that he is capable of becoming a gr8 QB. If he doesn't do it next season then I will quite simply consider him as being what he has shown up to this point in his career and that is an average QB. Alot of teams do good things with average QB's. So it isn't like I am anti-Carr. I just ain't on the 'Carr is the next coming of Montana' bandwaggon either. By the 3rd year, you either 'get it' or you are relagated to being a backup QB in the NFL for the rest of your life and the team starts to look for their next Superstar Marino, Elway, Montana.

Heck looking at it from a Glass half full perspective, he at least wasn't a #1 QB pick that was a total flop, as has happened in the past.

wags
05-01-2005, 04:03 PM
Carr is not a bad QB. He ain't a great one either. Out of the 32 starting QB's in the league, I would say he is right about #16, average. Could be worse, could be better. Will he improve, maybe.

That's fair. We will just put you in the camp that does not "believe" carr will be great.

Trophies are coming to those of us who do. :whoohoo:

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 04:04 PM
Carr has a Quick release -false
Carr has a Strong arm -true
Carr is a good decision maker-false
Carr doesnt have Happy Feet -false
Carr is going to be a great QB - neither

how did I do on the true and false parts? :heh:

quick release? yeah that would account for the 140 sacks in the NFL where the ref's won't count it a sack unless you don't pump fake it once, not tuck it in, fling it out as you are going down, or any of the other various QB tricks the NFL lets them get away with to avoid the sack charge. Your seriously kidding me about this one right? :hmmm:

Strong arm- yep one of the strongest in the league. Now if he could just show it during the game and not during warm ups.

Good decision maker- sorry but given his history of changing of the play at the line's ability to get almost no yardage out of it, I would say his decision making ability is severly in question.

Happy feet- only person I know of who's feet move more is MC Hammer when he is doing the Hammertime dance.

Carr is GOING to be a great QB- care to name a date on when that is going to happen? I give him one more year to impress me with that idea. After that I will totally give up on it, as it will become an absurdity. Good QB, yep. Great QB, not yet.

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 04:10 PM
Carr Bomb, I am really curious how you can seem to evaluate the O-line as a unit, you can even break it down to individuals, naming McKinney as the prime culprit, and you can talk about how bad it is. But for some reason you can't evaluate a QB himself, or how his progress is in regards to the team. How is it that you can apply some criteria for evaluation of the ENTIRE O-line, but can't seem to find the criteria to evaluate a single QB? :hmmm:

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE=thegr8fan]I have done the stats thing, many times. Carr loses when you do that. Think about it though and the stats for Carr's first 3 years are not as applicable as other QB's are cause most of them didn't start their careers with expansion teams. If the Texans were an established team and Carr had started THEN, you could compare the stats on a one-to-one basis. That situation doesn't apply here, IMHO.

i don't get it how does Carr lose, you would think since he did start on a expansion team it was even more diffucult to put up about the same #s. Last year in only his third season Carr passed for more yards than S. Mcnair has ever thrown for. Also if you do look at other Qbs progressions after they make that first step of passing for more tds than ints, the very next season they make a giagantic leap in production.Their has been plenty of qbs that strugled early on, Bradshaw comes to mind. If you look at the offense what can we truly say Carr has had to work with. A injury prone rb, the only recieving te he has keys the defense of obvious passing plays, One hellava #1 reciever that is often double covered, Lacks a true #2 reciever and the one he does have isn't very consistent and seems like the only ball he can catch occasionally is the long one which takes time for the play to develop, and a oline that set a new all-time sack record. Even with all that you still say he's avg., avg. is pretty good given those currcumstances We should be asking ourselves how this guy hasn't been a bust cause he cetainly hasn't been put in the best position for success.

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 04:41 PM
i don't get it how does Carr lose, you would think since he did start on a expansion team it was even more diffucult to put up about the same #s. you don't get it how he loses, but then you answer your own question on how that happens. Yes it was is more difficult to put up #'s on an expansion team, that is how Carr loses.

Even with all that you still say he's avg., avg. is pretty good given those currcumstances finally we find some common ground we can agree on.

We should be asking ourselves how this guy hasn't been a bust cause he cetainly hasn't been put in the best position for success. which is also why I haven't closed the books totally on him making it into the upper crust of QB's and am willing to give him one more year to 'smooth out the rough edges' and do so.

DocBar
05-01-2005, 05:42 PM
I think Carr could work on his accurracy and his reads. Other than that, I've been very impressed by him. Hard to be accurrate or make good reads on a bear hug or from your back.

Texan Dave
05-01-2005, 07:31 PM
Look thegr8fan, I went through and looked at every quarterback starting in the league, plus Aikman, Montana, Elway, Kelly, and Marino. The ONLY 4 that did any better than he did in their third season was Marino, Manning, Brady, and Pennington. Carr has his weaknesses, but at least he isn't as bad off as as Elway was, who threw over 600 passes, for 3,891 yards and 22 TD's, but also threw 23 interceptions, with a 53% completion percentage and a 70.2 rating, and only got sacked 12 times (talk about a dramatic season full of high's and lows). David Carr's no Elway??? I'm glad he wasn't the equivilent of Elway in his 3'rd season. Also Troy Aikman who's no hall of famer (yet) but stil was a verry talented and respected QB didn't do **** untill his 5'th season. Also Penningtons 3'rd year would've been no better except he only threw 6 interceptions, a record low for all 3'rd year QB's. Another neat thing I found out was that the next highest sack total for all the QB's I looked at in their 3'rd year was Vinny Testeverdie, he was sacked 38 times with Tampa Bay compared to Carr's 49, and you think Carr had a soso season, Vinny was horrible.

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 07:38 PM
on his accurancy, I am perfectly happy with that. I think he is highly accurate. I also think that some of those int's come from balls bouncing off his receivers hands and into the Defense. I have no problem with Carr's accuracy or his arm strength.

Now on his reads, yes, he needs ALOT of work. I hold out the hope that this is something that one acquires with more reps. So the more games he plays the better he gets at this, hopefully.

Carr has also learned how to put a little 'touch' on his throws which make them easier to catch, IMHO.

See it isn't all bad stuff. :whistle:

Just wish he would call an audible that worked occasionally. And he would stop doing the 'look at AJ, dump it to DD' scheme that he seems to have made too much of a habit out of. There are other players out there working for the ball also.

edo783
05-01-2005, 07:42 PM
on his accurancy, I am perfectly happy with that. I think he is highly accurate. I also think that some of those int's come from balls bouncing off his receivers hands and into the Defense. I have no problem with Carr's accuracy or his arm strength.

Now on his reads, yes, he needs ALOT of work. I hold out the hope that this is something that one acquires with more reps. So the more games he plays the better he gets at this, hopefully.

Carr has also learned how to put a little 'touch' on his throws which make them easier to catch, IMHO.

See it isn't all bad stuff. :whistle:

Just wish he would call an audible that worked occasionally. And he would stop doing the 'look at AJ, dump it to DD' scheme that he seems to have made too much of a habit out of. There are other players out there working for the ball also.


I have been watching you rag on Carr up and down through out this post. I have a question for you. Do you think Brady is a good QB? Perhaps even a very good one. Perhaps one you would prefer having on your team?

Texan Dave
05-01-2005, 07:50 PM
Anyhow, the point is that you can't judge what a QB in the NFL is going to be in just 4 years, some make a break out in 4, the exceptionally great do it in 3, and some do it in 5 or 6, Steve Young was traded traded to the 49'rs from the Bucks after his 4'th season because he suposedly wasn't ever going to be anything but a quality backup. Now he's in the hall of fame. The Bucks seem to like to give away good QB's.

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 08:08 PM
Do you think Brady is a good QB? yes. I think he is a good QB. Great QB, nope. I think he is fortunate to have Belichick as a Head Coach who has put together a very good football team and a system that works very well with Brady. But no, I don't think Brady is a Montana, Marino, or Favre quality QB. Would I want him on the team as my QB, no. He wouldn't be at the top 5 prospects for a QB that I would want to go out and get from another team. What this has to do with Carr I have absolutely no idea. But I am sure you will make that link soon, hopefully, clear to me and the rest of this thread. :hmmm:

and yes, Texan Dave, the rest of the 31 teams in the NFL, send their future superstars to Tampa Bay and let them groom them so they can pick them up later and turn them into football giants bound for the HOF one day. I have thought that same thing myself for years now. Why does anyone draft a QB? Why not just pick up Tampa's rejects and let them come to the team and launch their next NLF HOF career. :heh:

Carr Bombed
05-01-2005, 08:37 PM
Carr Bomb, I am really curious how you can seem to evaluate the O-line as a unit, you can even break it down to individuals, naming McKinney as the prime culprit, and you can talk about how bad it is. But for some reason you can't evaluate a QB himself, or how his progress is in regards to the team. How is it that you can apply some criteria for evaluation of the ENTIRE O-line, but can't seem to find the criteria to evaluate a single QB? :hmmm:


You want me to evaluate our Qb fine.

Things he needs to work on: at times his throwing motion seems to side armed, especialy on intermediate short range passes, leading to the occasional batted ball. Although there have been qbs succeed with unorthodox throwing styles I would like to see him straighten it out, but he does have great success with it when he runs a boot leg.

Gets happy feet at times, but again until we solidify the line I don't expect that to improve a whole lot.

People have question if he progresses through his reads, but again until we solidify the line I expect to see him to continue to dump off, Although having said that he did improve greatly in that area last year, especially in the begining of the season. Gaff had his best year as a pro and on many occasions he hooked up with D. Armstrong.

I really don't have any other beef with him and of the 3 things I mentioned 2 relate to the pressure and time he has two throw. Now I'm not saying the pass rush is the reason everytime he makes those mistakes, but if you see that much pressure you start expecting it on every play. Its like the clock in his head has been sped up and as soon as it goes off he looks to get rid of the ball. Hopefully with improved pass protection we can add a few seconds to that clock.

Things I'm pleased with: Leadership and toughness- Many qbs put in Carrs position would already have started wars in the press and probably already start to question the franchise and his lineman PUBLICLY. Carr hasn't drawn this organization nor his teamates through the mud, instead he has taken his lumps and in turn gained the respect of his teamates. Even had said this however I beleive if Carr suffers another 40 something sack season I expect him to start speaking out, as well he should, 4 seasons is plenty of enough time to find adequate protection. We saw the beginnings of it one the field last season.

Grace under fire- Last year I saw some pretty good throws made under alot of pressure, sure there were other that weren't great, but Qbs aren't always going to make a perfect throw under pressure.

Arm strength- Carr definetly has a NFL arm, no questions there

Mobility- That was one of the surprises with Carr, cause I didn't remember hearing anything about during his collage career- although he probably didn't have to run as much :wacko:

Accuracy and Touch- Although he isn't a master of both yet, he did make alot of progress on both last season, especially on the long ball.

All in all he didn't have that bad of a season, considering the circumstances. Especially in the first have of the season. I don't know what happened during the second. Maybe he was flustered or maybe we had half a season of game tape for our oppenents to study and with never really establishing a steller running game we didn't give them much to respect in that area. He threw for more tds than ints (which is what everybody was asking for) and usually about 90% of the time, their next season is really where they start to improve dramtically.

infantrycak
05-01-2005, 10:19 PM
Also Troy Aikman who's no hall of famer (yet) but stil was a verry talented and respected QB didn't do **** untill his 5'th season.

But will be on the 1st ballot. Sure he didn't do anything until his 5th season except go to the pro-bowl in his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons and oh yeah, win a Super Bowl in his 4th season. That said, there are certainly similarities/coincidences to Carr and Aikman's track records so far and Aikman sure turned out OK.

DocBar
05-01-2005, 10:31 PM
IMO Carr's and Aikman's careers will be very similar. Dallas wasn't much more than an expansion team when he was drafted and he took a pounding and much fan criticism. Remember the whole Steve Walsh thing? Most of the fans wanted Walsh to start. Carr is gonna do some great things in a Texans uniform and be our first hall of famer. Hide and watch...Super Bowl in 2008 and back to back in 2009(when we host of course)..

edo783
05-01-2005, 11:13 PM
yes. I think he is a good QB. Great QB, nope. :

Glad to see you think Brady is a good QB. Interesting about the Montana thing as it was the same knock on Joe as some folks are putting on Brady. Personally I think Brady is about as good of a QB as there is today in an all aound sense. Smart, accurate, resonably mobile and doesn't give the game away. The reason I asked about Brady is, if you look at Carr's and Brady's 04 numbers they are VERY similar. They each threw for ~ 3500 yards, they each made about the same number of throws and completions, 60%+ completion rate and 14 INTs. Where you will see a difference is TDs. (the interesting thing is if you look at the top 7 or 8 QBs the same GENERAL thing holds true). So, if he is throwing for approximatly the same amount of yards, the throws and completions are close and have nearly the same INTs, but only differ in the number of TDs, what do you think may be the issue???? Could it be the scheme and coaching dicisions in the red zone??? Ya think! And lets not forget that ALL the other QBs had MUCH better O-lines to work behind. So to trash David for what he is doing would be a large error. He is ALLREADY performing at or near the top QB levels in the league. Do we want him to get more TDs....of course, but to do that requires the right red zone calls being made so that the score happens. He is making all the throws between the twenties that is why his numbers are similar to the others, but the OC is making mistakes inside the twenty.

Wolf
05-01-2005, 11:21 PM
Glad to see you think Brady is a good QB. Interesting about the Montana thing as it was the same knock on Joe as some folks are putting on Brady. Personally I think Brady is about as good of a QB as there is today in an all aound sense. Smart, accurate, resonably mobile and doesn't give the game away. The reason I asked about Brady is, if you look at Carr's and Brady's 04 numbers they are VERY similar. They each threw for ~ 3500 yards, they each made about the same number of throws and completions, 60%+ completion rate and 14 INTs. Where you will see a difference is TDs. (the interesting thing is if you look at the top 7 or 8 QBs the same GENERAL thing holds true). So, if he is throwing for approximatly the same amount of yards, the throws and completions are close and have nearly the same INTs, but only differ in the number of TDs, what do you think may be the issue???? Could it be the scheme and coaching dicisions in the red zone??? Ya think! And lets not forget that ALL the other QBs had MUCH better O-lines to work behind. So to trash David for what he is doing would be a large error. He is ALLREADY performing at or near the top QB levels in the league. Do we want him to get more TDs....of course, but to do that requires the right red zone calls being made so that the score happens. He is making all the throws between the twenties that is why his numbers are similar to the others, but the OC is making mistakes inside the twenty.

one BIG difference is Brady is able to spread the ball around more.. Texans go AJ then DD... I am not knocking Carr on this (yet he needs to improve on spreading the ball around) because it may be that our WR's can't get open.. Also IMO.. besides the OL of the Patriots being better than ours.. Teams don't want Dillion beating them singlehandedly ...DD..well Opponents gear to stop AJ

wags
05-01-2005, 11:28 PM
Teams don't want Dillion beating them singlehandedly

I don't buy that because the Pats and Brady were doing pretty good before Dillon got there. They have dominated with some pretty average running backs and receivers.

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 11:45 PM
I bet you even cheered when Carr got hurt last season, while his WIFE and 3 SONS were watching there Daddy scrape himself off the ground for the 140th time! on that bet you would lose every time Hulk75. In fact I was shocked, and somewhat outraged when the crowd 'boo-ed' him in the last game. I didn't, nor would I ever do that. Critique him amongst football fans, yep. Publicly boo him or cheer for any player, Texan or otherwise, who is injured, NEVER. I would challenge you to find any post on here where I talked about even liking that kind of behaviour out of anyone. Don't act like you know me, or know anything about how I conduct myself at a football game.

Quick Release- YES! 140 sacks has nothing to do with getting sacked 140 times. It has to do with Wand getting his Butt Kicked, along with Steve and Chester and the rest. If it is Carrs fault he gets sacked what is the Line responsiblity, to pick him up and brush him off! uh, you might want to rein in the emotion when you type a rebuttal. 140 sacks has EVERYTHING to do with getting sacked 140 times. That is why they call it a sack and statmaster's even count them. Steve? Chester? what, you know McKinney and Pitts on a first name basis now? Eat at the same table as often as you eat at mine, do you? The last sentence I am having a hard time deciding what your intent is. Are you admitting that it is Carr's fault for the sack and the way the lineman say 'that was your fault Carr' is by picking him up and brushing him off? Or are you saying that their only responsibility is to pick him up and brush him off? And here I thought they were supposed to actually block another Defensive player, or two. Couldn't we just get a 'pick him up and brush him off' support type person who could run in from the sidelines like a waterboy and do this instead of paying all that money to our Lineman to do this? Seems like it might free them up to do something else, like say block somebody. Perhaps that is the problem, they are so worried about forgetting about picking him up and brushing him off that they can't concentrate on the blocking part. :shocked

Don't read too much into my reply Hulk75. I don't hate on Carr. I don't think that my posts say that at all. I do critique him, just as I do the other players, and the team as a whole. Carr is not above critique. That is all I am saying. I am not even saying he is in the bottem half of the NFL as far as QB's, IMHO. I just haven't seen anything to make me think he is some kind of QB superstar. Perhaps that is to come in the next year, perhaps not. We will see when the season starts. I am sitting here hoping that he dramatically improves next season and things start clicking for him and the team, particularly the O-line play. We will have to see. But I can critique what I have seen so far and it isn't all the great, IMHO. It ain't bad, but it ain't great, either. It is quite simply just good QB play, average, good, play.

IMHO, Carr's Sack total has a little to do with the O-line play, but alot more to do with his lack of 'pocket awareness'. Pocket Awareness is either something you have, or don't have. It isn't taught. If Carr had more of it, he would 'feel' where the sack was coming from and avoid it, or get rid of the ball before the pocket collapsed or he was sacked. If I had to point out one glaringly obvious problem with Carr, that would be it. He just doesn't seem to be able to tell when someone is near him or not. Sometimes he hears phantom feet and sometime he doesn't hear the real feet that are coming for him. All are symptoms of a very poor Pocket awareness, IMHO. Until that improves he will always be simply an average QB, IMHO. That isn't a 'hate on Carr', it is quite simply an observation.

DocBar
05-01-2005, 11:47 PM
Carr is running the expansion team version of the "Run-and-Shoot". It's called the "chuck and duck". When he gets some ACTUAL protection and the mental protection that comes with it, he's gonna WOW!! the NFL. I don't think any QB in the history of the NFL could do better than Carr under the same circumstances. You'll see the happy feet go away and the cannon arm deliver precision strikes when he finally has, AND FEELS LIKE HE HAS, adequate protection to make more than 2 reads per snap. He is much of a man to take the punishment he's had to take. Just hide and watch this year. Carr is gonna have a banner year. 25 TD's to 7 INT's. 68% completions for 9.3 yds per and 4500 yds passing. DD hits 1500 yds rushing and 1,000 receiving. AJ hits 1700 receiving. Gonna be a monster year for the Texan "O". Thank Dom Capers and the coaching staff for it. They chose not to mesh with the OL and will have 2 starters in the Pro Bowl next year. Seth Wand and Chester Pitts. I predict 10-6 and a Wild Card berth with a Wild Card victory over Pttsburgh.

DocBar
05-01-2005, 11:48 PM
Carr is running the expansion team version of the "Run-and-Shoot". It's called the "chuck and duck". When he gets some ACTUAL protection and the mental protection that comes with it, he's gonna WOW!! the NFL. I don't think any QB in the history of the NFL could do better than Carr under the same circumstances. You'll see the happy feet go away and the cannon arm deliver precision strikes when he finally has, AND FEELS LIKE HE HAS, adequate protection to make more than 2 reads per snap. He is much of a man to take the punishment he's had to take. Just hide and watch this year. Carr is gonna have a banner year. 25 TD's to 7 INT's. 68% completions for 9.3 yds per and 4500 yds passing. DD hits 1500 yds rushing and 1,000 receiving. AJ hits 1700 receiving. Gonna be a monster year for the Texan "O". Thank Dom Capers and the coaching staff for it. They chose not to mess with the OL and will have 2 starters in the Pro Bowl next year. Seth Wand and Chester Pitts. I predict 10-6 and a Wild Card berth with a Wild Card victory over Pttsburgh.

thegr8fan
05-01-2005, 11:57 PM
So, if he is throwing for approximatly the same amount of yards, the throws and completions are close and have nearly the same INTs, but only differ in the number of TDs, what do you think may be the issue???? the main issue, is Carr doesn't have any Pocket Awareness and Brady does. Why does that matter, cause Brady knows he can throw the ball away and rely on his defense to hold the other team from scoring, mostly. And Brady does so. That way, he doesn't get sacked, and the drive doesn't always come to a grinding halt with an emotional sack, letting the air out of the Patriots and jacking up the emotion of the opposing D. Also Belichick is a better coach, if not the best HC in the NFL today. There are alot of factors to go into when comparing Brady and the Patriots to the Texans. But on a QB level, I would put Carr and Brady in relatively the same general area, one on one. Difference between the two, Carr has the stronger arm and less experience. Brady has the much better Pocket Awareness though, and for QB's that is an intangible that simply can't be taught.

Wolf
05-02-2005, 12:04 AM
I don't buy that because the Pats and Brady were doing pretty good before Dillon got there. They have dominated with some pretty average running backs and receivers.
your right.. I was just counting last season... on that note.. I 'll have to go with the first thought I had in the post.. spread the ball around.. 1st season (and rightfully so) it was Miller as the security blanket... since that time ..Aj isn't open the ball usually goes to DD...teams know that.. What got me last season is that our OL was better last season than the 1st , we have more weapons now than 2002.. yet our TE's are pretty much non existant (granted they are staying in to block) ...common sense would tell anyone that with the addition of AJ and DD ... our TE's should be open more...compared to James Allen in the backfield and Bradford/Gaffney as our primary guys.

wags
05-02-2005, 12:09 AM
Pocket Awareness is either something you have, or don't have. It isn't taught.

That is ridiculous. Pocket presence is a learned skill just the same as reading the field. It's not genetic.

infantrycak
05-02-2005, 12:10 AM
IMHO, Carr's Sack total has a little to do with the O-line play, but alot more to do with his lack of 'pocket awareness'. Pocket Awareness is either something you have, or don't have.

I absolutely agree Carr needs to improve his pocket awareness, but wow your powers of prognositication/memory are far superior to mine (which is entirely possible) if you can break that down into an actual % of those sacks resting more on his shoulders. I am still having flashbacks to the 3rd quarter of the Bears game and almost the entire Browns game where most of the pressure was coming right up the gut. I guess I have less of a love affair with QB's than most--IMO Manning would have been reduced to pulp behind our OL. Now Staubach (I know a hated Cowboy guy but it is the game not the affiliation I am getting at) would have made something happen. Each QB has strengths to their game--Carr is tough, we don't know a whole lot more now--Manning is a scientist given sterile conditions--Staubach was a tough gamer that made the team around him better. This year Carr has to make his own image in the NFL (not to say he is on the hot seat, but it is time to define himself in some fashion).

DocBar
05-02-2005, 12:12 AM
Dom Capers is the head coach and his forte was supposed to be defense, so unless he can finally start getting some sacks I would say Dom is the first to go. I'm not a huge Palmer fan, so if the defense gets it done and the offense struggles then he could be gone. Dom Caper's style has never been a flashy offense, so I don't see too much pressure on Carr compared to Capers and Palmer.

Carr has made a few bad throws, but I've seen just as many good throws dropped. :ninja:
3 years and improvement each year, with less than adequate peronnel and everyone screams for the coaches head. Capers and Co. have gone from absolutelt NOTHING to building a respected and (in some cases) feared team. IMHO, I feel that the players on the field have limited the play calling much more than the scheme itself. The Texans have been playing with a few damn good draft picks and 31 other teams cast-offs. Ease up on the whole team and let's see what the 5 YEAR PROJECT turns in to. Remember the 5 yr plan? Not many seem to. PATIENCE, GRASSHOPPER!!!!!

Carr Bombed
05-02-2005, 12:13 AM
Glad to see you think Brady is a good QB. Interesting about the Montana thing as it was the same knock on Joe as some folks are putting on Brady. Personally I think Brady is about as good of a QB as there is today in an all aound sense. Smart, accurate, resonably mobile and doesn't give the game away. The reason I asked about Brady is, if you look at Carr's and Brady's 04 numbers they are VERY similar. They each threw for ~ 3500 yards, they each made about the same number of throws and completions, 60%+ completion rate and 14 INTs. Where you will see a difference is TDs. (the interesting thing is if you look at the top 7 or 8 QBs the same GENERAL thing holds true). So, if he is throwing for approximatly the same amount of yards, the throws and completions are close and have nearly the same INTs, but only differ in the number of TDs, what do you think may be the issue???? Could it be the scheme and coaching dicisions in the red zone??? Ya think! And lets not forget that ALL the other QBs had MUCH better O-lines to work behind. So to trash David for what he is doing would be a large error. He is ALLREADY performing at or near the top QB levels in the league. Do we want him to get more TDs....of course, but to do that requires the right red zone calls being made so that the score happens. He is making all the throws between the twenties that is why his numbers are similar to the others, but the OC is making mistakes inside the twenty.

As I've stated before I think the sacks have alot to do with the difference in the td #s. Think about it sacks are drive KILLERS. How many times have yall seen a drive stall due to a sack, they take you out of a managable 2nd down and put you in 3rd and longs. just think about all the td opportunities we have missed out on due to this problem. A stable oline would do wonders for our team, not only will be able to put more points on the board, but itll will help out the defense tremedously, just do to the fact that we'll have much better field position.

wags
05-02-2005, 12:17 AM
1st season (and rightfully so) it was Miller as the security blanket... since that time ..Aj isn't open the ball usually goes to DD..

I think Miller got a lot of catches that first year because Carr felt comfortable with him. Carr was a rookie and probably had more confidence in Miller than anyone else. Now it's different. AJ can torch people and DD is just a better football player than Billy. If it was my choice I get the ball to the better football player, rather than the tight end/best friend.

Wolf
05-02-2005, 12:23 AM
I agree with that, but it is kinda ironic that we don't utilize the TE more.. I am no offensive whiz when it comes to football, but it was my understanding that the TE is a key to beating the cover two and with that, I would think guys would rotate off of AJ more with a third option.. But of course many times I am sure the TE is staying in and blocking :wacko:

thegr8fan
05-02-2005, 12:28 AM
That is ridiculous. Pocket presence is a learned skill just the same as reading the field. It's not genetic. that's good to know. Now I can add that to my 'list of hopes' for Carr next season. Too bad last time I checked though, they didn't have an Zen Kung Fu Masters teaching Carr how to kick some hinney with a blindfold over his eyes on the coach's roster. :heh:

I think I will stick to my assumption though that some QB's have a better ability to sense the oncoming player, than others. Hey if it can be taught, hooray, then there is still hope. But then why does some Qb's have a better feel for those kinds of things, than others? :hmmm:

There are alot of reasons for Carr's jacked up sack total, IMHO. One of those was his insistance on running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage with the ball in his hands instead of throwing it away. He got better at NOT doing that last season. The O-line has not been consistant yet. If it remains intact for the next season, then it will be for the first time we had consecutive season's with the same players in the same positions. I won't even go into the 'which position gave up the most sacks' as that is a subjective opinion and I have heard everything from straight up the center, to either side's tackle being insufficient. But it has been porous, on that I will gladly agree. But in todays NFL, where the QB gets to almost wear a pink tu-tu and even getting a sack on one is dang near impossible, you have to ask how Carr manages to do it so well. My answer is his insistance to not throw the ball away and his low Pocket Awareness. Hopefully that improves on both counts. Hopefully our defense is good enough that Carr can comfortably throw the ball away and have confidence that the D can stop them, as Brady seems to do. But up till now, Carr is part of the problem. He isn't the whole problems, as it doesn't rest on one player or even one area alone. But I ain't naive enough to say that Carr was perfect and the rest of the team is the problem. Carr should own his share of blame, and that is what I am simply doing. Assigning the part of blame that I feel he own's to HIM. Not the line, not the coach's, not the D. The part that he directly has control over. The Ball and his mismanagment of it.

THAT is MY Humble Opinion and worth every penny you spent to obtain it. :thumbup

Carr Bombed
05-02-2005, 12:34 AM
I agree with that, but it is kinda ironic that we don't utilize the TE more.. I am no offensive whiz when it comes to football, but it was my understanding that the TE is a key to beating the cover two and with that, I would think guys would rotate off of AJ more with a third option.. But of course many times I am sure the TE is staying in and blocking :wacko:

The TE position is becoming a key piece in modern offenses and are very vital to young qbs. A good receiving te, who can also block can do wonders for your team. I had the opportunity to watch Jason Witten for dallas over the last couple of years and he is already their best receiver and best offensive weapon. (although J.Jones should challenge him for that title). I think the injury to Joppru has really hurt us. I don't remember hearing much about him in collage, but if he was drafted before witten he better have some skills. I just think the injuries to the offensive side of the ball have set David back a little. David's injuries in year 2, DD's injuries, B.Juppru's inability to get on the field, and the injury to Bollesi is probably the biggest one. It can't get any worse things have to start going our way on that side of the ball.

thegr8fan
05-02-2005, 12:39 AM
don't forget to add to your injury list Hollings, Payne, Walker, and Glenn. The injury bug has NOT been kind to the Texans. But then again we are young and our depth pool is not up to speed with the rest of the NFL. I do see that coming more 'in line' in the next season, so we will actually have some decent backup/replacement players in the event of an injury.

JacksonvilleJaguar4
05-02-2005, 01:09 AM
GREAT QB's (first 3 seasons)

Brett Favre- 37TD's 39INT's

Terry Bradshaw- 31TD's 58INT's

Warren Moon- 40TD's 59INT's

Dan Fouts- 16TD's 36INT's

Steve Young- 21TD's 21INT's

Bart Starr- 13TD's 25INT's

Troy Aikman- 31TD's 46INT's

*David Carr- 34TD's 42INT's

wags
05-02-2005, 01:20 AM
Terry Bradshaw- 31TD's 58INT's

Dan Fouts- 16TD's 36INT's

Holy terrible!!!!! eek:

Grid
05-02-2005, 04:07 AM
you ever wanna just grab someone and shake em till they pass out?

Texan Dave
05-02-2005, 11:20 AM
But will be on the 1st ballot. Sure he didn't do anything until his 5th season except go to the pro-bowl in his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons and oh yeah, win a Super Bowl in his 4th season. That said, there are certainly similarities/coincidences to Carr and Aikman's track records so far and Aikman sure turned out OK.

That's true, but the only stat he had better that Car his 3'rd year was completion percentage, and that has totaly to do with suporting cast (leading rusher in the NFL). Plus his line was flat out better.

rdbrem
05-02-2005, 07:17 PM
With our O-line, the cheerleadrs had bigger pockets than Carr last season

FILO_girl
05-02-2005, 07:34 PM
you ever wanna just grab someone and shake em till they pass out?
You too Grid?

DocBar
05-02-2005, 08:56 PM
you ever wanna just grab someone and shake em till they pass out?
Every single time I read about someone wishing we had drafted Barron.
:soapbox:

TopTexanFan16
05-02-2005, 09:41 PM
Every single time I read about someone wishing we had drafted Barron.
:soapbox:

haha me too!!! but he is named the starter for the rams. lets see if he makes an immediate impact? god i hope he doesnt os i dont have to eat my words saying i didnt think he was a good pick for us. haha

infantrycak
05-03-2005, 01:38 PM
haha me too!!! but he is named the starter for the rams.

Starter at RT, a position the Rams were truly in dire need of, not LT. The RT position for the Rams gave up 14.5 sacks last year. In a year most consider below average for Wade due to an ankle sprain, he gave up 6 sacks.

beerlover
05-04-2005, 11:25 AM
This year Carr has to make his own image in the NFL (not to say he is on the hot seat, but it is time to define himself in some fashion).

Most Times Sacked, Season: 76: David Carr (Houston '02)

now after three seasons he has 140 towards surpassing Elways Most Times Sacked, Career: 516: John Elway (Denver '83-'98). :ouch:

concerning pocket awareness here is an interesting article- http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7793555

and another thread from the past including yours truely- http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/printthread.php?t=6763

Vinny
05-04-2005, 02:37 PM
Interesting to note that in the year we gave up our least amount of sacks Carr started the fewest games of his career.

Lucky
05-04-2005, 02:56 PM
Interesting to note that in the year we gave up our least amount of sacks Carr started the fewest games of his career.
Interesting how? In '03, Carr was sacked 15 times in 295 attempts (19.7 attempts/sack). Compared to the other Texan QBs in '03, Banks was sacked 13 times in 103 attempts (7.9 attempts/sack) & Ragone went down 8 times in 40 attempts (5 attempts/sack).

Sacks don't tell the entire story. No Texan QB threw for over 7 yards/attempt. And QBs were knocked out of the game on 3 occasions, including Banks who was lost for the remainder of the season with a broken finger. The line wasn't good in '03 and should've improved in '04. It didn't.

ArlingtonTexan
05-04-2005, 02:59 PM
Interesting to note that in the year we gave up our least amount of sacks Carr started the fewest games of his career.

Tempting but i am going to leave that one alone because I am not going to break down a game by game on sacks from 2003. As for the bigger question that started this thread Carr is a starting NFL QB in this league so he deserves to start until a better idea comes along or he does somethng to disprove that notion. Right now i think he is in the Brooks/Plumber mole of inconsistent guy, but he has time to prove otherwise.

Vinny
05-04-2005, 03:24 PM
I just took a quick peek and Banks was sacked at a higher rate per game than Carr to be fair. He was taken down 13 times in 2003. Carr was sacked 15 times according to NFL.com. There are some missing sacks somewhere. I'll look later.

2003 Banks (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1062/gamelogs/2003)

2003 Carr (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268/gamelogs/2003)