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Dread-Head
12-09-2011, 10:44 AM
What pray tell is the diff between college ball and the pros?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Headhunter-James-Harrison-flagged-for-vicious-h?urn=nfl-wp13494


...This. Call it a "dirty" hit if you want, but when a QB leaves the pocket, that's the risk he takes.

JWarren14
12-09-2011, 10:51 AM
Considering Antonio got fined for touching Matt Ryan's helmet, Harrison could get suspended for his past history.

Dread-Head
12-09-2011, 10:53 AM
Considering Antonio got fined for touching Matt Ryan's helmet, Harrison could get suspended for his past history.

Nah. I agree with part of the article. They'll fine him, he'll ***** about it, his coaches and team will support him, then everyone will move on.

JWarren14
12-09-2011, 11:00 AM
Probably a fine, but some these fines and suspensions are laughable, and I don't think they'll take them out of the game so I am working on not getting upset about it.

I read somewhere that there is a gray area of the rule in terms of the QB trying to advance the ball as a runner he is fair game. So who knows, he might not even receive a fine at all.

Credit McCoy for coming back in a few plays later, that's a pretty tough hit to take directly to the dome. He said he didn't even remember the hit.

Doppelganger
12-09-2011, 11:02 AM
Nah. I agree with part of the article. They'll fine him, he'll ***** about it, his coaches and team will support him, then everyone will move on.

I don't know. Past history makes a difference and Harrison has pretty significant history. I think the league leaders in Personal Foul penalties over the past few years are Harrison, Suh, and Dunta. So, Harrison leading with his head could equate to a 1 game suspension.

Doppelganger
12-09-2011, 11:05 AM
Probably a fine, but some these fines and suspensions are laughable, and I don't think they'll take them out of the game so I am working on not getting upset about it.

I read somewhere that there is a gray area of the rule in terms of the QB trying to advance the ball as a runner he is fair game. So who knows, he might not even receive a fine at all.

Credit McCoy for coming back in a few plays later, that's a pretty tough hit to take directly to the dome. He said he didn't even remember the hit.

If that is true then its possible that McCoy suffered a mild concussion if he doesn't remember the hit. I don't credit McCoy one bit for coming back in and I wish the team had held him out. Head injuries are serious business and not taking proper precautions can cut a career and in some cases a life short. Young football players who sustain similar injuries see pros shrugging off head injuries as if they are nothing more than a cut is asking for trouble.

The NFL needs to get serious about head injuries ASAP.

Corrosion
12-09-2011, 11:14 AM
Probably a fine, but some these fines and suspensions are laughable, and I don't think they'll take them out of the game so I am working on not getting upset about it.

I read somewhere that there is a gray area of the rule in terms of the QB trying to advance the ball as a runner he is fair game. So who knows, he might not even receive a fine at all.


He lead with his helmet .... clearly a violation of the rules no matter who he was hitting.

Blake
12-09-2011, 11:23 AM
He lead with his helmet .... clearly a violation of the rules no matter who he was hitting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/sports/football/24helmets.html

Indeed, despite the league’s controversial threats last month to suspend players for helmet-to-helmet tackles, and four years into revelations of the short- and long-term consequences of football brain trauma, almost every head-on-head collision remains not just condoned but also part of the sport. N.F.L. rules forbid such hits essentially against only quarterbacks or defenseless players, like a receiver making a catch; all others are fair game.

Old article, but basically you cant hit a thrower, or pass catcher. All others are fair game.

ChampionTexan
12-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Credit McCoy for coming back in a few plays later, that's a pretty tough hit to take directly to the dome. He said he didn't even remember the hit.

I'm thinking there's nothing about this that warrants crediting anyone involved.

Browns quarterback Colt McCoy's father, Brad, said today that Colt doesn't remember anything after taking a vicious helmet to helmet hit from Steelers linebacker James Harrison and that he never should've gone back in the game.

Brad McCoy, a lifelong high school football coach who coached Colt all through junior high and high school, said McCoy doesn't remember throwing the interception in the end zone three plays after he jogged back onto the field after missing two plays following the hit. The pick essentially cost the Browns the game and they lost 14-3.

LINK (http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/12/colt_mccoys_father_says_mccoy.html?utm_source=dlvr .it&utm_medium=twitter)

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 12:30 PM
What pray tell is the diff between college ball and the pros?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Headhunter-James-Harrison-flagged-for-vicious-h?urn=nfl-wp13494


...This. Call it a "dirty" hit if you want, but when a QB leaves the pocket, that's the risk he takes.

A QB can't leave the pocket and stay behind the LOS as a passer? :confused: It's the passer that's protected ya know.

Harrison has a rep for this.

The ball had clearly left McCoy's hand and Harrison led with his helmet, and made helmet to helmet contact. It was a dirty hit, I hope gets suspended for MULTIPLE games. He's a dirty Muff Hugga!

JWarren14
12-09-2011, 12:36 PM
I'm thinking there's nothing about this that warrants crediting anyone involved.



LINK (http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/12/colt_mccoys_father_says_mccoy.html?utm_source=dlvr .it&utm_medium=twitter)

Yeah I saw that after I posted earlier. I thought McCoy was showing some toughness, but now it looks like the Browns organization may have handled the whole situation the wrong way. Fines should be sent down to those who are supposed to go through the process implemented for players who are showing concussion like symptoms.

toronto
12-09-2011, 12:43 PM
Nah. I agree with part of the article. They'll fine him, he'll ***** about it, his coaches and team will support him, then everyone will move on.

He is from another era. Basically he's a modern version of Jack Tatum to me. He really doesn't care if he cripples someone on the field.

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 12:44 PM
And what's up with the title Dread. Colt is in his second year and has been hit hard plenty times before this. I don't get it.

Dread-Head
12-09-2011, 01:32 PM
And what's up with the title Dread. Colt is in his second year and has been hit hard plenty times before this. I don't get it.

...Not like that...

Hookem Horns
12-09-2011, 01:32 PM
And what's up with the title Dread. Colt is in his second year and has been hit hard plenty times before this. I don't get it.

Fixed.

Dutchrudder
12-09-2011, 01:36 PM
I really don't think helmet-to-helmet collisions would be all that bad if they would just use hard foam helmets instead. The tough plastic used makes the hits much more strong and are more likely to cause concussions. I know foam wouldn't look as cool, but at least players wouldn't get hurt as much.

Blake
12-09-2011, 01:37 PM
Yeah I saw that after I posted earlier. I thought McCoy was showing some toughness, but now it looks like the Browns organization may have handled the whole situation the wrong way. Fines should be sent down to those who are supposed to go through the process implemented for players who are showing concussion like symptoms.

Yeah. If you are gonna fine players for hits that cause concussions, then you have to fine medical staffs for allowing a player to re-enter the game with a concussion. Just let Seneca finish the game. Its not like you are going anywhere this year. Shit!

thunderkyss
12-09-2011, 01:37 PM
If that is true then its possible that McCoy suffered a mild concussion if he doesn't remember the hit. I don't credit McCoy one bit for coming back in and I wish the team had held him out. Head injuries are serious business and not taking proper precautions can cut a career and in some cases a life short. Young football players who sustain similar injuries see pros shrugging off head injuries as if they are nothing more than a cut is asking for trouble.

The NFL needs to get serious about head injuries ASAP.

You're not the only one. His dad was/is pretty upset about it.

"He never should've gone back in the game," Brad told the paper. "He was basically out (cold) after the hit. You could tell by the rigidity of his body as he was laying there. There were a lot of easy symptoms that should've told them he had a concussion. He was nauseated and he didn't know who he was. From what I could see, they didn't test him for a concussion on the sidelines. They looked at his (left) hand."

Brad then pointed out the brief nature of Colt's postgame press conference.

"After the game (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d824e2b08/article/mccoys-dad-rips-browns-for-letting-qb-return-from-helmet-hit?module=HP11_cp), the (public relations staff) made sure Colt's interview was brief and he couldn't face the lights in his press conference,'' said Brad. "The TV lights and the Stadium lights were killing him. Why would you say he was fine? That makes it even worse."

Dread-Head
12-09-2011, 01:41 PM
Fixed.


...You used to be cool...what happened to you?

:kitten:


just kiddin'

CloakNNNdagger
12-09-2011, 01:44 PM
Yeah. If you are gonna fine players for hits that cause concussions, then you have to fine medical staffs for allowing a player to re-enter the game with a concussion. Just let Seneca finish the game. Its not like you are going anywhere this year. Shit!

The NFL has made a joke out of safety issues. They are followed when "convenient" only. They are ignored without consequences.

I'm not Colt's father, but I would be saying the same things:

Colt McCoy’s father blasts Browns for letting Colt play after blow to head (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/09/colt-mccoys-father-blasts-browns-for-letting-colt-play-after-blow-to-head/)
Posted by Mike Florio on December 9, 2011, 12:51 PM EST


Archie Manning isn’t the only NFL dad who’s speaking up this week.

Brad McCoy, the father of Browns quarterback Colt McCoy, has teed off on the team for allowing Colt to return to last night’s game two plays after suffering an apparent concussion.

“He never should’ve gone back in the game,” Brad McCoy told Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. “He was basically out [cold] after the hit. You could tell by the ridigity of his body as he laying there. There were a lot of easy symptoms that should’ve told them he had a concussion. He was nauseated and he didn’t know who he was. From what I could see, they didn’t test him for a concussion on the sidelines. They looked at his [left] hand.”

Brad McCoy also echoed something that Will Burge of ESPN 850 in Cleveland reported last night — that Colt McCoy was experiencing sensitivity to light.

“After the game, the [public relations staff] made sure Colt’s interview was brief and he couldn’t face the lights in his press conference,” Brad McCoy said. “The TV lights and the stadium lights were killing him. Why would you say he was fine? That makes it even worse.”

It’s unknown whether and to what extent Colt McCoy was tested for a concussion. (We’ve submitted a list of questions to the team on this point.) Brad McCoy thinks his son wasn’t properly evaluated.

“Josh Cribbs suffered a groin injury earlier in the game and he was out for the rest of the game,” Brad McCoy said. “Colt takes a severe hit like that and he’s back in the game a play later? If he took another blow to the head, we could’ve been talking about his career here.”

Here’s hoping that the media continues to push this issue, that the league fully investigates, and that the situation causes the league to once and for all implement meaningful procedures to ensure that players are properly evaluated after absorbing obviously violent blows to the head.

Let’s also hope the Browns don’t hold Brad McCoy’s comments against Colt, especially as the Browns try to decide what to do at quarterback in 2012.

I’m more hopeful about the first thing I’m hopeful about.

ChampionTexan
12-09-2011, 01:59 PM
The NFL has made a joke out of safety issues. They are followed when "convenient" only. They are ignored without consequences.

I'm not Colt's father, but I would be saying the same things:

Well, considering that on his one passing play, Seneca Wallace threw a pretty crisp pass for a 13 yard completion, and Colt threw two interceptions and almost a third (overturned by replay) after he returned, I would say the entire Cleveland sideline was brain impaired in numerous ways last night.

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 01:59 PM
...Not like that...

Well, I haven't taken the time to research every hit that has been put on Colt to see if any of them are equal to the dirty SOB that is Harrison and his illegal hit, so I will have to take your word for it.

He certainly has had taken a LOT of hard hits that I have seen.....


Fixed.

What did you change? *edit - when I replied I saw the difference.

Dread-Head
12-09-2011, 02:04 PM
Well, I haven't taken the time to research every hit that has been put on Colt to see if any of them are equal to the dirty SOB that is Harrison and his illegal hit, so I will have to take your word for it.

He certainly has had taken a LOT of hard hits that I have seen.....




What did you change? *edit - when I replied I saw the difference.

He changed the title of the thread...

Hookem Horns
12-09-2011, 02:14 PM
...You used to be cool...what happened to you?

:kitten:


just kiddin'

LOL ... I like Colt. He doesn't have all of the annoying worshippers running around Austin making excuses for everything he does. Now if it would have been that guy maybe I would have let it slide. ;)

Double Barrel
12-09-2011, 02:29 PM
Harrison disregards the rules. There's no other way to see it. The QB did not flinch down, Harrison clearly intended to take him out.

He could have easily wrapped up the QB instead of spearing him helmet first. We see Cushing wrap up ball carriers every week with good form. Same force of impact, but one is dirty about it and the other is good fundamental technique.

I hope Goodell throws the freakin' book at him for his blatant disrespect of the league's intentions in enforcing helmet-to-helmet hits.

I love it if his suspension costs them games and their division title.

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 02:35 PM
Harrison disregards the rules. There's no other way to see it. The QB did not flinch down, Harrison clearly intended to take him out.

He could have easily wrapped up the QB instead of spearing him helmet first. We see Cushing wrap up ball carriers every week with good form. Same force of impact, but one is dirty about it and the other is good fundamental technique.

I hope Goodell throws the freakin' book at him for his blatant disrespect of the league's intentions in enforcing helmet-to-helmet hits.

I love it if his suspension costs them games and their division title.

Me too. Did you notice how much time he had to avoid the illegal AFTER the ball was thrown. He had at least one full step and he STILL launch into the helmet with his. No way around it, the guy is dirty.

Double Barrel
12-09-2011, 02:40 PM
Me too. Did you notice how much time he had to avoid the illegal AFTER the ball was thrown. He had at least one full step and he STILL launch into the helmet with his. No way around it, the guy is dirty.

No doubt about it in my mind.

I love aggressive play. We see it in Cushing on every play. But, there is a line that gets crossed when aggressive play disregards sound fundamentals in favor of cheap shots. Cushing wraps dudes up. His arms are out and his intention is to take the ball carrier down. He's every bit as aggressive as Harrison, but he does it the right way. Ray Lewis is the same way. These guys prove that it can be done.

Harrison knows better, but doesn't care. I think Goodell is going to make him a poster boy for that kind of blatant disrespect.

HOU-TEX
12-09-2011, 02:43 PM
I didn't think it was really all that dirty of a hit, to be honest. Colt left the pocket, tucked the ball and began to run. That makes him no different than a RB, imo. He had every intension of running the ball until the last second. You could argue whether Harrison had enough time to lift, but imo, he was open game.

Another incident proving these rules are getting out of hand

infantrycak
12-09-2011, 02:47 PM
I didn't think it was really all that dirty of a hit, to be honest. Colt left the pocket, tucked the ball and began to run. That makes him no different than a RB, imo. He had every intension of running the ball until the last second. You could argue whether Harrison had enough time to lift, but imo, he was open game.

Another incident proving these rules are getting out of hand

If there was an effort to lift there could be an argument. Instead it is clear Harrison had no intent to lift and in fact positioned for the helmet on helmet hit.

Double Barrel
12-09-2011, 02:49 PM
Look where Harrison's hands are at when he makes contact. No intention to tackle the QB. His intention is clear. Folded arms push the QB up and his helmet slams in hard.

If his intention was to tackle, his arms would have been out to wrap up the QB for a tackle. If helmet-to-helmet was incidental at that point, I could see it.

This is a typical ESPN "Jacked Up!" highlight hit. Nothing fundamentally sound about it.

Enforcing existing rules is not ruining the NFL. Highlight reels are ruining the sport, just like dunks in the NBA and homerun-friendly rules in MLB. Some players are all about getting themselves glossed.

I think it's a cop-out to say it's ruining the sport when you see solid, legal hits by the dozens every week. Just watch a Cushing highlight reel. Dudes are still getting hit hard and the league is not trying to change that aspect of the game.

thunderkyss
12-09-2011, 02:54 PM
If there was an effort to lift there could be an argument. Instead it is clear Harrison had no intent to lift and in fact positioned for the helmet on helmet hit.

Not only that, if Colt's head would have dropped just a little, I'd say Harrison might have an argument, but Colt's head moved up if anything. Looks like he clearly targeted Colts head.

To me, it doesn't matter if it's a running back, WR, QB, DL, if you intentionally put the top of your helmet into another player's helmet, that's dirty.

infantrycak
12-09-2011, 02:54 PM
I think it's a cop-out to say it's ruining the sport when you see solid, legal hits by the dozens every week. Just watch a Cushing highlight reel. Dudes are still getting hit hard and the league is not trying to change that aspect of the game.

Yup. Cushing, Quinn, Jackson and company have been laying bone jarring hits during this win streak. The kind where the impact is so loud the stadium goes ooooh after the hit. Telling people to follow the rules isn't wussifying the sport.

Double Barrel
12-09-2011, 03:05 PM
Yup. Cushing, Quinn, Jackson and company have been laying bone jarring hits during this win streak. The kind where the impact is so loud the stadium goes ooooh after the hit. Telling people to follow the rules isn't wussifying the sport.

Exactly. I have actually stopped the DVR to rewind to show my son how it's done. We even watch some of those tackles several times, and dudes are getting the snot knocked out of them and it's all legal and sound.

I think it's made my boy want to play defense, too. He said he'd rather hit than be hit, even though he loves catching the ball. He's leaning toward CB. :D

thunderkyss
12-09-2011, 03:11 PM
Yup. Cushing, Quinn, Jackson and company have been laying bone jarring hits during this win streak. The kind where the impact is so loud the stadium goes ooooh after the hit. Telling people to follow the rules isn't wussifying the sport.

Abraham's hit on the kid was one of those.

Perfectly legal

& I can say unequivocally, the kid ain't no wuss.

Mr teX
12-09-2011, 03:12 PM
None of these dudes show any tackling fundamentals except for maybe ray lewis & Patrick Willis & at times even they throw their body around with no effort to wrap up. For that reason, in really unconcerned where Harrison's arms were at the time of his hit on Colt.

I don't think it was intentional though; Harrison even apologized to McCoy mid game a few plays later.

Lance brought it up this morning but this is always what i've thought was the case with Harrison. He's just one of those rare guys that can get more power into his hits than the average player 1: b/c he's shorter thereby always having the advantage leverage wise...& 2, he's built like a frickin tank.

But b/c of his reputation & past history, every time that guy lays someone out, there will always be that question of whether or not it was a dirty hit or not.

Furthermore Colt was a ball carrier at that moment & since these guys normally can't be touched, i'm sure he like all other in-the-box players were licking their chops.

Rey
12-09-2011, 03:14 PM
I don't have a problem with the hit other than it's against the rules.

For a long time you were taught to lead with your helmet. Didn't matter if you hit another player in their helmet or not. Rb's often lower their heads and make helmet to helmet contact defenders.

The block that Casey put on that falcons lb was a violent helmet to helmet collision because that's how you were taught for the longest time. Put the two screws on your helmet on the opponent and your arms follow.

BUT that's against the rules in the NFL now. They talked about it during the broadcast this past game about coaches changing the aiming points of guys. Now instead of using your helmet you use your shoulder pad.

Years ago harrison's hit wouldnt have been called dirty, but times have changed and Harrison is doing a poor job of adjusting to the changes.

For that, yes, he should be fined and suspended because he is intentionally disobeying the rules which I guess in itself is technically dirty. Jmo.

thunderkyss
12-09-2011, 03:19 PM
Years ago harrison's hit wouldnt have been called dirty, but times have changed and Harrison is doing a poor job of adjusting to the changes.

For that, yes, he should be fined and suspended because he is intentionally disobeying the rules which I guess in itself is technically dirty. Jmo.

Crux.... that's it right there.

CloakNNNdagger
12-09-2011, 03:38 PM
It's amazing how hard it is to find the exact wording of these new NFL Rules.
Here are the helmet to helmet rules that involve the passer. SEE RULE 12-2-13-3 on this link.
(http://quirkyresearch.blogspot.com/2011/08/blogging-nfl-rule-book-2011-changes.html)

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 03:54 PM
I didn't think it was really all that dirty of a hit, to be honest. Colt left the pocket, tucked the ball and began to run. That makes him no different than a RB, imo. He had every intension of running the ball until the last second. You could argue whether Harrison had enough time to lift, but imo, he was open game.

Another incident proving these rules are getting out of hand

I usually agree with your football takes and value you're opinion, but in this instance I disagree all the way around. The ball was clearly gone, he led with his helmet, I think it's a penalty regardless even if he tucked and ran before he threw.

I think DB and ThunderKyss nailed it above. JMO

HOU-TEX
12-09-2011, 05:22 PM
I usually agree with your football takes and value you're opinion, but in this instance I disagree all the way around. The ball was clearly gone, he led with his helmet, I think it's a penalty regardless even if he tucked and ran before he threw.

I think DB and ThunderKyss nailed it above. JMO

Just to clarify, I think Harrison's an asswipe and a dirty player. I really can care less about him as a player.

I obviously need to go back and look at the hit again. Especially when members I highly respect are calling me out. Ha

The primary point I really wanted to make was once the QB leaves the pocket to run he becomes fair game. Shouldn't the QB be treated like a RB if he chooses to leave the pocket?

Double Barrel
12-09-2011, 05:47 PM
Just to clarify, I think Harrison's an asswipe and a dirty player. I really can care less about him as a player.

I obviously need to go back and look at the hit again. Especially when members I highly respect are calling me out. Ha

The primary point I really wanted to make was once the QB leaves the pocket to run he becomes fair game. Shouldn't the QB be treated like a RB if he chooses to leave the pocket?

I think he should be treated like any other ball carrier. I know the NFL protects it's "marquee" players, but it should not be that way. Money talks, though, as we all know.

CloakNNNdagger
12-09-2011, 06:10 PM
NFL Rulebook, Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8

Impermissible use of the helmet and facemask

(f) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against ANYopponent, game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those players who are in virtually defenseless postures, including but not limited to:

(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; or

(2) Lowering the head and violently or unnecessarily making forcible contact with the “hairline” or forehead part of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body; or

(3) “Launching” (springing forward and upward) into a defenseless player, or otherwise striking him in a way that causes the defensive player’s helmet or facemask to forcibly strike the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face—even if the initial contact of the defender’s helmet or facemask is lower than the defenseless player’s neck. (Examples: a defender buries his facemask into a defenseless player’s high chest area, but the defender’s trajectory as he leaps into the defenseless player causes the defender’s helmet to strike the defenseless player violently in the head or face; or a defender, using a face-on posture or with his head slightly lowered, hits a defenseless player in an area below the defenseless player’s neck, then the defender’s head moves upward, resulting in strong contact by the defender’s mask or helmet with the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face [an example is the so-called “dip and rip” technique]).

Note: The provisions of section (f) do not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or noncrown parts of the helmet in the course of a conventional tackle on an opponent.

(g) if the initial force of the contact by a defender’s helmet (including facemask), forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of a defenseless player.

Note: Defenseless players in (f) and (g) shall include (i) a player in the act of or just after throwing a pass; (ii) a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass; (iii) a runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped; (iv) a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air; and (v) a player on the ground at the end of a play.

h) If a receiver has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself, a defensive player is prohibited from launching (springing forward and upward) into him in a way that causes the defensive player’s helmet, facemask, shoulder, or forearm to forcibly strike the receiver’s head or neck area—even if the initial contact of the defender’s helmet, facemask, shoulder, or forearm is lower than the receiver’s neck.

Note: Launching is defined as springing forward and upward by a player who leaves his feet to make contact on the receiver.

(i) a kicker/punter, who is standing still or fading backwards after the ball has been kicked, is out of the play and must not be unnecessarily contacted by the receiving team through the end of the play or until he assumes a distinctly defensive position. During the kick or during the return, if the initial force of the contact by a defender’s helmet (including facemask), forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of the kicker/punter, it is a foul.

(j) any player who grabs a helmet opening of an opponent and forcibly twists, turns, or pulls his head.

(k) Illegal contact with the helmet against the knee of the snapper during an attempt for a field goal or kick try.

Penalty: For unnecessary roughness: Loss of 15 yards. The player may be disqualified if the action is judged by the official(s) to be flagrant.

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 07:45 PM
Just to clarify, I think Harrison's an asswipe and a dirty player. I really can care less about him as a player.

I obviously need to go back and look at the hit again. Especially when members I highly respect are calling me out. Ha

The primary point I really wanted to make was once the QB leaves the pocket to run he becomes fair game. Shouldn't the QB be treated like a RB if he chooses to leave the pocket?

I agree once the QB scrambles he becomes a ball carrier and it's no different then say a half back pass or the like. However, I still feel it was a dirty hit because the ball was clearly thrown, he took one more full step and still led with his helmet and appeared to even explode through him leading with his helmet straight to the head of the ball carrier/passer. Had he buried his head in his chest and wrapped him up, I wouldn't have a problem with it even being a tad after the ball was gone.

Wolf
12-09-2011, 07:50 PM
http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/DIRTY-HIT-HARRISON.gif

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 10:12 PM
The ball is already gone in that picture. Colt's hand is already down by his side after the throw, the ball is long gone. And Harrison still takes a step and goes helmet to helmet.

thunderkyss
12-10-2011, 06:31 AM
I think he should be done for the season.

Goatcheese
12-12-2011, 11:48 AM
I'm a huge opponent of the pussification of the NFL and all the ticky tack helmet to helmet calls where flags and fines start flying at even the slightest brush.

Harrison has gone too far too many times though.

He is not looking to lay a good hit and just happens to hit the other guy in the head. Harrison goes out there looking to hurt people and intentionally tries to hit helmet to helmet. I'm one of his biggest fans but when you walk onto the football field looking for an opportunity to hurt/injure people you are dirty and I don't even think you can make an argument that Harrison isn't.

Lay the wood, blast guys out of their shoes, etc. Just have some class and respect for your opponent.

GlassHalfFull
12-12-2011, 12:08 PM
I'm a huge opponent of the pussification of the NFL and all the ticky tack helmet to helmet calls where flags and fines start flying at even the slightest brush.

Harrison has gone too far too many times though.

He is not looking to lay a good hit and just happens to hit the other guy in the head. Harrison goes out there looking to hurt people and intentionally tries to hit helmet to helmet. I'm one of his biggest fans but when you walk onto the football field looking for an opportunity to hurt/injure people you are dirty and I don't even think you can make an argument that Harrison isn't.

Lay the wood, blast guys out of their shoes, etc. Just have some class and respect for your opponent.

What ever happened with this? Did he get a fine or a suspension? I am too lazy to look it up for myself.

Goatcheese
12-12-2011, 12:24 PM
What ever happened with this? Did he get a fine or a suspension? I am too lazy to look it up for myself.

Still mulling a "ban" for Harrison.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7341324/ban-being-mulled-pittsburgh-steelers-james-harrison-source-says

GlassHalfFull
12-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Still mulling a "ban" for Harrison.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7341324/ban-being-mulled-pittsburgh-steelers-james-harrison-source-says

Thanks, I have given out too much rep today, will hit you up tomorrow.

I totally spaced that was just last Thursday. Seems like more time than that has passed by.

Blake
12-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Just to clarify, I think Harrison's an asswipe and a dirty player. I really can care less about him as a player.

I obviously need to go back and look at the hit again. Especially when members I highly respect are calling me out. Ha

The primary point I really wanted to make was once the QB leaves the pocket to run he becomes fair game. Shouldn't the QB be treated like a RB if he chooses to leave the pocket?

A QB can still throw the ball from outside the pocket. The entire idea is to protect a QB while in a defenseless position, which is the act of throwing. Once he passes the LOS then you can be assured he is a runner only.

Mr teX
12-12-2011, 12:37 PM
The ball is already gone in that picture. Colt's hand is already down by his side after the throw, the ball is long gone. And Harrison still takes a step and goes helmet to helmet.

the clip in this thread makes it look way worse than it really was. It's easy to call it a dirty hit looking at it in super slo-mo but you've got to remember this stuff is happening in split seconds. Sure the ball was already gone but lets not act like the ball was waaayyy long gone to where Harrison had time to pull up. It was released a split second before the hit. Harrison or any other defensive player would've already likely committed to hit him since McCoy didn't assume the "qb-give-up" slide position. Plus, how many times have you seen a qb pump faking to get a guy in the air? It's ridiculous how much these new NFL have been slanted towards the offensive players & it's even worse how they are arbitrarily enforced by refs.


Yesterday Manning's hit on Simpson in the end zone should've technically been a penalty as Simpson was outstretched & defenseless in the air when Manning hit him...No flag of course b/c he caught it & was unhurt. But had Simpson gotten hurt on that play & Manning had hit him anywhere up top, that yellow flag would've come out & it would've been 1st down on the 1.

A big part of defense is intimidation & with these new rules the NFL has effectively taken a huge part of that away from defenses.

Hardcore Texan
12-12-2011, 12:51 PM
the clip in this thread makes it look way worse than it really was. It's easy to call it a dirty hit looking at it in super slo-mo but you've got to remember this stuff is happening in split seconds. Sure the ball was already gone but lets not act like the ball was waaayyy long gone to where Harrison had time to pull up. It was released a split second before the hit. Harrison or any other defensive player would've already likely committed to hit him since McCoy didn't assume the "qb-give-up" slide position. Plus, how many times have you seen a qb pump faking to get a guy in the air? It's ridiculous how much these new NFL have been slanted towards the offensive players & it's even worse how they are arbitrarily enforced by refs.


Yesterday Manning's hit on Simpson in the end zone should've technically been a penalty as Simpson was outstretched & defenseless in the air when Manning hit him...No flag of course b/c he caught it & was unhurt. But had Simpson gotten hurt on that play & Manning had hit him anywhere up top, that yellow flag would've come out & it would've been 1st down on the 1.

A big part of defense is intimidation & with these new rules the NFL has effectively taken a huge part of that away from defenses.

I saw the play live, watched it several times on the DVR, seen the highlights, etc. The clip is zero'd in and slow down sure, and that's not what I made my opinion on, but it's still a dirty hit all the way around. The ball is gone, he takes a full step, leads with his head. It's not even debatable to me. If he hits him in the chest or anywhere else but in the head it's a clean play.

It's bang bang enough he can still lay him out, he just chose to use his head to do it with.

Blake
12-12-2011, 01:55 PM
I agree that he should be suspended for the season. Either that, or let us sick Duane Brown on him. That should put a little starch in his flag.

Dread-Head
12-12-2011, 02:13 PM
A QB can still throw the ball from outside the pocket. The entire idea is to protect a QB while in a defenseless position, which is the act of throwing. Once he passes the LOS then you can be assured he is a runner only.

Pretty much yeah. Leave your ego in the locker room with your scrap book full of clippings of how you were the "greatest running QB" in college. That whole "I'm gonna run for it." schtick that served you well in the NCAA against teams 70 deep where MAYBE three would make it to the NFL DON'T WORK IN THE PROS BABY! Just ask Reggie Bush and if you can get a time machine ask Red Grange. Leave the pocket and you're saying (in best Samuel L. Jackson) "Go ahead muff-hugga. I dare ya...I DOUBLE DARE YA." Funny thing about guys like Harrison, Robinson, Polamalu, Reed and Ray Lewis they'll accept your dare. Mr Tebow will get his reality hit soon enough.

ziggy29
12-12-2011, 03:19 PM
If London Fletcher gets a 15 yard penalty for a clean and legal hit on Tom Brady, Harrison should be banned for life in comparison*. Except that Colt McCoy isn't Tom Brady. He'd be done for the year if he hit Brady like this.

* -- not saying he should be banned for life, just pointing out how ridiculous that penalty on Fletcher was and how the NFL coddles its "elites" like Brady.

Rey
12-12-2011, 06:21 PM
The fact that Harrison hits so hard is a big factor in this stuff too...

thunderkyss
12-12-2011, 07:00 PM
The fact that Harrison hits so hard is a big factor in this stuff too...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqDbo56xRKRn4OA1B_F7l9Z3fZZvg9i 8cZFW8bXPao3_s6i2waykwtADAJ

TexanSam
12-12-2011, 08:48 PM
With all these helmet to helmet hits that he's made, I wonder if he has any lingering effects from them also. How many concussions has he had?

edo783
12-12-2011, 11:37 PM
IMO, it is VERY clear that after watching the replay that harrison INTENTIONAlLy drove his helmet into Mc Coy's head. If this were were his 1st or maybe even his second infraction I would go with just a fine. in this case with as many time as this guy has done this, i would suspend him through the rest of this season and in this case well NOrTh of six figures in fines. I would recommend 250K. This guy is nothing but a thug and needs to be dealt with severally.

GlassHalfFull
12-13-2011, 10:01 AM
per NFL network

1 Game Suspension

TimeKiller
12-14-2011, 07:50 AM
“Josh Cribbs suffered a groin injury earlier in the game and he was out for the rest of the game,” Brad McCoy said. “Colt takes a severe hit like that and he’s back in the game a play later? If he took another blow to the head, we could’ve been talking about his career here.”
I guess Colt got hit in the wrong head?


James Harrison is a slug. He easily could've made a wrap up, form tackle. 1 game? How about the rest of the season?! Money and 1 game isn't going to stop him.

Dutchrudder
12-14-2011, 08:35 AM
Well, the 1 game suspension ought to cost him about 250k in lost salary. I imagine that won't have any effect the way he hits people though.

rmartin65
12-14-2011, 08:35 AM
I dont see clear intent to injure there. Dude went for a tackle, and got a little high. This is still football, just fine him and let him play. A suspension is BS.

HOU-TEX
12-14-2011, 10:01 AM
I didn't think it was really all that dirty of a hit, to be honest. Colt left the pocket, tucked the ball and began to run. That makes him no different than a RB, imo. He had every intension of running the ball until the last second. You could argue whether Harrison had enough time to lift, but imo, he was open game.

Another incident proving these rules are getting out of hand

I think it's quite obvious you don't know what you're talking about. Do us all a favor and stfu, moron

Rey
12-14-2011, 10:22 AM
I guess Colt got hit in the wrong head?


James Harrison is a slug. He easily could've made a wrap up, form tackle. 1 game? How about the rest of the season?! Money and 1 game isn't going to stop him.

Part of playing defense is knocking the stuffing out of people. I agree that you can still hit hard and wrap up, but sometimes you have the opportunity to really dig off into someone and wrapping up does take away from that.

If you want to say that guys shouldn't hit guys as hard as they can or that guys should wrap up all the time ok. Make that a rule and you will eliminate a lot of the bone crushing hits. I have a feeling that rule is coming next.

Look at kareem's hit on roddy white. He smashed him and made no attempt to wrap up. A big difference though is that Kareem is shorter than roddy and it's easier for him to avoid the helmet to helmet.

The hit wasn't all that different except the heights of the players involved and the fact that Harrison hits harder. Kareem also led with his shoulder more, but his neck isn't as thick and strong as harrison's either.

Of course there are other differences, but my point is about the tackle itself. No wrap up attempted by either guy, they were trying to blow up the opponent.


Harrison has a bad rep, and he needs to know that qb's are going to be looked at differently regardless if they are thought to be runners it not.

But the fact that he didn't wrap up is not something new or exclusive to him. Most big hits in the NFL come when guys aren't wrapping up or performing solid blocking techniques. Yes on offense or special teams when you have those crushing blocks the are usually just like how Harrison or Kareem tackled. Lower your shoulder and head and launch yourself into a guy.

Folks are going to have their opinion if the hit, but I don't have a problem with the hit itself. If I were Tomlin my problem would be that he isn't being smart. He knows he's under microscope. He knows qb's are more protected than other positions. Be smarter than that.

Dread-Head
12-14-2011, 10:32 AM
Well, the 1 game suspension ought to cost him about 250k in lost salary. I imagine that won't have any effect the way he hits people though.

Read his twitter feed. He says since he doesn't have to practice this week he's just going to hit the weights.

The1ApplePie
12-14-2011, 11:31 AM
I wonder if he regrets calling him Roger Fagdell yet?

Texaninlild
12-14-2011, 11:40 AM
Harrison made no attempt to lower his target area. Harrison (5'11") is probably 2"'s shorter, so height is not an issue. Colt is a relatively short QB, but most these days are 6'4" plus, so this guy has to go head-hunting many times.

He deserved the $250K vacation.

infantrycak
12-14-2011, 12:16 PM
Money and 1 game isn't going to stop him.

Nope. He told Jerome Bettis he won't even attempt to avoid hits such as this and expects further fines and suspensions. That tidbit is going to come back to haunt him next time Goodell is deciding the appropriate punishment.

Goodell - "can you hear me now?"

I dont see clear intent to injure there.

He lowers his helmet to hit with the crown instead of lifting to go face to face. He was going for maximum impact on what he knows is an illegal hit since he has been fined for it multiple times before.

Goatcheese
12-14-2011, 12:28 PM
I think it's quite obvious you don't know what you're talking about. Do us all a favor and stfu, moron

Don't be so hard on him. He's just a little beside himself. :kitten:

Mr teX
12-14-2011, 01:28 PM
Nope. He told Jerome Bettis he won't even attempt to avoid hits such as this and expects further fines and suspensions. That tidbit is going to come back to haunt him next time Goodell is deciding the appropriate punishment.

Goodell - "can you hear me now?"



He lowers his helmet to hit with the crown instead of lifting to go face to face. He was going for maximum impact on what he knows is an illegal hit since he has been fined for it multiple times before.

Lol, you never get ready to "run through someone" & hit them face to face...In fact most guys getting ready to blow someone up do exactly what harrison did b/c they're bracing for the hit themselves. The head always comes down like that.

Hardcore Texan
12-14-2011, 01:34 PM
Well, the 1 game suspension ought to cost him about 250k in lost salary. I imagine that won't have any effect the way he hits people though.

73K is his game check.

infantrycak
12-14-2011, 01:46 PM
Lol, you never get ready to "run through someone" & hit them face to face...In fact most guys getting ready to blow someone up do exactly what harrison did b/c they're bracing for the hit themselves. The head always comes down like that.

Sure it does - Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1dNPxf1rCM), Link (http://www.5min.com/Video/How-To-Play-Football-Form-Tackling-6184644)

Blake
12-14-2011, 02:25 PM
The Steelers just released the x-ray's of James Harrisons head.

http://www.guzer.com/pictures/homers_brain.jpg

Dread-Head
12-14-2011, 02:54 PM
The Steelers just released the x-ray's of James Harrisons head.

http://www.guzer.com/pictures/homers_brain.jpg



As a Texan fan who's ALSO a Steeler fan I take issue. Mr Harrison's brain is nowhere NEAR that big!

:thisbig:


Yeah...Harrison doesn't play for money. He's all about the "glory" of the game and the "big hit".

Dutchrudder
12-14-2011, 02:59 PM
73K is his game check.

Where did you hear that? I'm just looking at his contract numbers:

In 2011, Harrison's salary jumps to $3.66 million and includes $900,000 roster bonus.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/1632/james-harrison-contract-details

I don't know if the bonus is included, but if it's not it should be around 215k per week (17 weeks), 268k if the bonus is included. Unless of course his salary changed or the contract was renegotiated.

Hardcore Texan
12-14-2011, 03:23 PM
Where did you hear that? I'm just looking at his contract numbers:



http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/1632/james-harrison-contract-details

I don't know if the bonus is included, but if it's not it should be around 215k per week (17 weeks), 268k if the bonus is included. Unless of course his salary changed or the contract was renegotiated.

Contract was re-negotiated sometime recently, they ran it on ESPN or NFLN and broke it down by the week/game check. Sorry.....no linky.

Mr teX
12-14-2011, 03:50 PM
Sure it does - Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1dNPxf1rCM), Link (http://www.5min.com/Video/How-To-Play-Football-Form-Tackling-6184644)

Spare me the instructional video defense...as the tackling dummies:

aren't running & changing directions in split seconds....
aren't changing their pad levels
& don't have arms to stiff arm you.

For these reasons & now the new rules, "the form tackle" is nearly impossible to execute in live game situations on a regular basis anyway.

Furthermore, i'd like to see you try to keep your head up & on the numbers or face to face with this running downhill right at you 15-20 times a game.

http://media.nj.com/mustseesports/photo/brandon-jacobs-33d418f66e38e0e5_large.jpg

You'd eventually:

-get your neck broke.
-be out of a job b/c you're not making a form tackle up high on a guy like that
-be on a highlight reel.


In any event, it seems as though it doesn't matter how & when you hit a qb these days, you'll still get flagged for it depending on how the refs feel about it; Look no further than Tom Brady & London Fletcher this past weekend.

I stand by what i said. Harrison did nothing that most of these other defense guys wouldn't have...The only difference here is that it's a guy who's got a "history".

infantrycak
12-14-2011, 04:03 PM
Spare me the instructional video defense...as the tackling dummies:

aren't running & changing directions in split seconds....
aren't changing their pad levels
& don't have arms to stiff arm you.

Yeah all these coaches who have said heads up for decades formed their opinions solely on practice dummies and have no idea about real game tackling. LOL - sure.

You'd eventually:

-get your neck broke.

180 degrees wrong. Neck injuries are specifically why you are told to get your head up. Your neck is designed to move forward, back and side. It is not designed to be compressed.

Rey
12-14-2011, 04:12 PM
Yeah all these coaches who have said heads up for decades formed their opinions solely on practice dummies and have no idea about real game tackling. LOL - sure.



180 degrees wrong. Neck injuries are specifically why you are told to get your head up. Your neck is designed to move forward, back and side. It is not designed to be compressed.

Head up means that you don't hit with the very top of your helmet. That's called spearing. You should still be able to see the opponent.

But you are supposed to have your head slightly tilted. In fact, it's almost impossible to get low and attempt a tackle or hit and not tilt your head.

"head up" means you shouldn't be looking at the ground when trying to tackle. But you are supposed to lead with your hair line.

That's how most players make contact. From ball carriers to blockers to tacklers. You are slightly tilting your head and that is often the first thing that makes contact. Then you bring your hands.

infantrycak
12-14-2011, 04:31 PM
Head up means that you don't hit with the very top of your helmet. That's called spearing.

And that is exactly what Harrison did when he intentionally lowered his head.

But you are supposed to have your head slightly tilted.

Well aware of that. But the term contemplates the tilt of your head being backwards away from centered. Harrison does the opposite and tilts his head forward from centered. He head downs.

TimeKiller
12-14-2011, 06:30 PM
I guess Colt McCoy runs as hard as Brandon Jacobs now....


Yeah, Kareem knocked the poo outta that receiver....except the big difference is that guy didn't have a mild concussion and KJ isn't getting fined or suspended. So take that however you like. Harrison could've hit McCoy with all his fire, knocked the poo outta McCoy by making a real tackle. Player safety begins with the player. He can act like it isn't his fault, it's just a game and Gooddell is some blow hard with power but the consequences are real. He and his broken orbital bone should know.

Rey
12-14-2011, 07:06 PM
And that is exactly what Harrison did when he intentionally lowered his head.



Well aware of that. But the term contemplates the tilt of your head being backwards away from centered. Harrison does the opposite and tilts his head forward from centered. He head downs.

Maybe I don't understand that last part, but you should tilt your head forward not backward.

BigBull17
12-15-2011, 07:47 AM
The hit was illegal, and the organization needs to be punished for how they handled things, but Colt needs to reign his father in before he gets a stink on him that could effect future jobs. Colt is a grown man, and Papa McCoy should let him handle his business.

infantrycak
12-15-2011, 11:03 AM
Maybe I don't understand that last part, but you should tilt your head forward not backward.

No. Imagine yourself standing normally. If you look up your neck is contracting toward your back to tilt your view up. Vice verse for looking down. Same thing applies to the terminology and reality in tackling. Heads up is taught (a) for safety and (b) to keep your eyes on the play. If as is typical in tackling you are leaning forward rather than standing straight and you tilt forward you are looking even more toward the ground and taking your eyes off the play. Instead you heads up elevating your view to keep track of the play.

Double Barrel
12-15-2011, 04:54 PM
I just watched a bunch of Cushing highlights. You don't see that dude spearing guys. Perhaps that's why he doesn't get fined and suspended?... :thinking:

I think Harrison's public comments reveal his intentions. He's not hiding anything here.

Texecutioner
12-15-2011, 04:57 PM
I remember so many in here in high favor of wanting to bring Harrison to this team after all of the scummy and cancerish things he said about his own teammates, but at the same time love to criticize dirty plays by different players on other teams. Lol!

Harrison is the last guy I'd want on my football team. I'm all for certain players with checkered pasts depending on what it is, but not a scumbag like Harrison. I draw the line with him.

Goatcheese
12-15-2011, 04:59 PM
I think Harrison's public comments reveal his intentions. He's not hiding anything here.

Exactly. He basically said he thought it was fine for him to go head hunting once the QB left the pocket.

He's going out there looking to hurt people. Dirty.

PsychoLove
12-16-2011, 11:26 AM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7359537/one-game-ban-james-harrison-pittsburgh-steelers-upheld

NEW YORK -- The NFL has denied James Harrison's appeal of a one-game suspension for a helmet-to-helmet hit on Cleveland quarterback Colt McCoy, and the Pittsburgh Steelers linebacker will sit out Monday night's game against San Francisco.

The ruling was made by NFL-NFLPA on-field appeals officer Ted Cottrell and announced Friday.

PsychoLove
12-16-2011, 11:27 AM
A suspension is BS.

:smiliepalm: