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View Full Version : Luck & Manning don't want to co-exists


dream_team
12-06-2011, 02:14 PM
I had a feeling this would happen...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/06/archie-manning-doubts-that-peyton-and-andrew-luck-want-to-be-teammates/related/

I'd prefer the Colts to find a way to get rid of Peyton and go into re-building mode. If the Colts trade their #1, they can get alot of quality players! Including a healthy Peyton, Colts have a good chance of re-claiming the AFC South next season.

Goatcheese
12-06-2011, 02:35 PM
They would have been sub .500 even with Forehead. That is a miserably bad football team.

They won't win the AFCS any time soon.

Double Barrel
12-06-2011, 02:39 PM
I hope they keep Manning around. Even if he returns, he can't have that much elite-level football left in him at his age.

Then they wouldn't have Luck to develop and would have to re-build at that point.

This season has exposed something fundamentally broken with the Colts when they seem like they have just given up on the season and do not even appear to be trying to win a game.

One player can obviously mean the difference between a winning record or losing record, but man, one player means the difference between just winning a single game?

Texecutioner
12-06-2011, 02:40 PM
They would have been sub .500 even with Forehead. That is a miserably bad football team.

They won't win the AFCS any time soon.
The Colts were just 10-6 last season. The only reason their season went so haywire this year is because they didn't have any time to prepare without Manning and he declared himself unable to play right before the season. They had to wing it from there and it blew up in their face, because their entire offense was built upon letting Manning do his thing. Their team wasn't built to plug in different players like that.

If a healthy Manning comes back and they can get several important players or draft picks that can help them right away, they are a serious threat for the division next year. Maybe not as serious as they were a few years ago, but you quickly have forgotten who ran this division for the last 10 years.

BetaV1
12-06-2011, 02:43 PM
I too doubt Caldwell will pick Luck over Manning. But just when I think there are certain things that can't be done in football, like trading your starting quarterback of nearly a decade to a division rival (McNabb), they prove me wrong. There's been all sorts of wishy-washy rumors about a Manning-to-the-Jets trade that seem to come and go every couple of months.

Yes, giving up the first pick overall in the draft will get a fair amount of quality players, but a guy of Manning's level can and probably will give them more trade value. You're talking about a guy who is not only a proven elite quarterback in the NFL, but a guy who, by virtue of not playing this year, has proven that he can single-handedly bring a poorly coached team to a consistent 10+ win season. Imagine if he goes to a team that has a rock solid defensive minded scheme and coach, such as the Niners. And for Luck, you'll only have a few teams interest for leverage. If you put Manning on the trade block, I'd imagine they'll get calls from teams you wouldn't even think would have interest in a quarterback: Cowboys, Falcons, Bills, Cardinals, Jets, Ravens, Texans.

GlassHalfFull
12-06-2011, 02:46 PM
I think the Manning family is way too media savvy for this not to be a planned statement. Archie is sending a message for Peyton.

Texecutioner
12-06-2011, 02:47 PM
One player can obviously mean the difference between a winning record or losing record, but man, one player means the difference between just winning a single game?

The problem was that the entire Colts offense was built around letting Manning dictate to everything without hardly any real coaching intervention to get in the way of Manning doing his thing. They didn't any ample time to find the right QB in the off season to prepare a new game plan where a new QB could be successful with what their OC could design for that offense. Their offense including Manning didn't look near as good last season if you remember. Their defense had been getting a lot worse last season as well. I think if Manning would have made it known that he as going to be hurt for the whole season they would have been able to prepare better. The Colts weren't built like many other teams.

They were built upon Manning scoring a lot of points and having teams play from behind to where their defense had a "bend but don't break" style of playing where a lot of teams were forced to throw on them or to try and run time off the clock if they were ahead to keep Manning off the field. Either way, it was usually a pretty predictable approach for the Colts defense on how they defended against other teams. The way that team was built was meant for a disaster if Manning went down, because it effected their entire style of how they effectively beat teams.

Double Barrel
12-06-2011, 03:52 PM
I agree, Tex, on how the team was built around Manning getting leads and outscoring opponents.

But, his absence does not explain the epic amount of QUIT that we are witnessing with the Colts. NFLN has been talking about it, and they have shown low-lights where players are not even following through on assignments. They are flat out quitting on Caldwell. That's just pathetic. We never saw that kind of lame even with the 2-14 Texans!

Texecutioner
12-06-2011, 04:00 PM
I agree, Tex, on how the team was built around Manning getting leads and outscoring opponents.

But, his absence does not explain the epic amount of QUIT that we are witnessing with the Colts. NFLN has been talking about it, and they have shown low-lights where players are not even following through on assignments. They are flat out quitting on Caldwell. That's just pathetic. We never saw that kind of lame even with the 2-14 Texans!

I do think we saw that kind of lame with the 2-14 Texans. They were awful in many games and looked like they weren't in it to me, but that's another subject.

I've always believed that one man on a football team can at times effect the entire team with his greatness or his absence at times. It's very rare, but for instance I've seen team's defenses all of a sudden begin to over achieve and play much better than what was expected or where they had been playing once they get a huge spark with a new player or a QB that can get so hot that they don't want to let him down and then they become expired. I noticed a few of those Packers teams defenses that would all of a sudden start playing better when they were in the hunt and Brett would get on fire. We're seeing it right now with Tim Tebow big time!! Their defense all of a sudden went from being awful to being a pretty good unit.

I think the Colts defense was able to do that for many years, because they always felt like if Manning was out there throwing the ball around they were in the game and had a chance. It inspired them not to let the offense down even though they knew they were the bad unit on the team. When Manning isn't in there and you've got some Curtis Painter or Collins in there who nobody trusts or has any faith in that attitude gels all over the team and all of a sudden no one is inspired anymore. Just my observations on what I've seen with quite a few teams at times.

Double Barrel
12-06-2011, 04:02 PM
I do think we saw that kind of lame with the 2-14 Texans. They were awful in many games and looked like they weren't in it to me, but that's another subject.

I don't know, man. I'm not defending the 2-14 Texans by any means, but this Colts team is 0-12 and might very well be on the way to a winless season.

At least the Texans won a couple of games, fwiw.

Texecutioner
12-06-2011, 04:05 PM
I don't know, man. I'm not defending the 2-14 Texans by any means, but this Colts team is 0-12 and might very well be on the way to a winless season.

At least the Texans won a couple of games, fwiw.

I always thought that kick was missed on purpose, but that's just me. I could be wrong, but the timing of such an awful miss by Brown just looked obvious to me. I wanted him to miss as well since we needed that first pick of the draft and we all thought we'd be getting a new QB.

HOU-TEX
12-06-2011, 04:25 PM
The Colts have no one to blame but themselves. IMO, they spent too much money on the stars (3-5 players, maybe), which left enough money for average to below average players at best. They were also too reliant on Manning.

I think Polian's way overrated these days. Look at his past first rounders since 05.

05 - Marlin Jackson
06 - Joseph Addai
07 - Anthony Gonzales
08 - No pick
09 - Donald Brown
10 - Jerry Hughes
11 - Anthony Castonzo

Granted, they've been picking towards the end of the round, but damn.

edit: Sorry for being a tad off-topic

Goatcheese
12-06-2011, 04:26 PM
The Colts were just 10-6 last season. The only reason their season went so haywire this year is because they didn't have any time to prepare without Manning and he declared himself unable to play right before the season. They had to wing it from there and it blew up in their face, because their entire offense was built upon letting Manning do his thing. Their team wasn't built to plug in different players like that.

If a healthy Manning comes back and they can get several important players or draft picks that can help them right away, they are a serious threat for the division next year. Maybe not as serious as they were a few years ago, but you quickly have forgotten who ran this division for the last 10 years.

I'm not saying they would be 0-12 with Manning, but I don't think they would have pulled out 8 wins this year; maybe 6-7.

He isn't the only guy they are missing this year. Clint Session was a huge part of what they did on defense and losing him exposed all of the other guys he was covering for.

Add that with some of their young guys regressing and old guys(Saturday) getting extra strength old along with trying to reshuffle a train wreck O-line and it was a perfect storm that not even Manning could have overcome.

paycheck71
12-06-2011, 04:45 PM
I wonder how the Manning trade would work considering his contract. He's owed $28M in March, as the article states, or he becomes a free agent. Who picks up that tab? How many teams would be willing or able to take on his contract?

GlassHalfFull
12-06-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm not saying they would be 0-12 with Manning, but I don't think they would have pulled out 8 wins this year; maybe 6-7.

He isn't the only guy they are missing this year. Clint Session was a huge part of what they did on defense and losing him exposed all of the other guys he was covering for.

Add that with some of their young guys regressing and old guys(Saturday) getting extra strength old along with trying to reshuffle a train wreck O-line and it was a perfect storm that not even Manning could have overcome.

I agree.

I think their 10-6 record from last year is deceptive. Manning willed them to some of those victories. They were going to have a rough year this year with him. Certainly not 0-12, but not good.

I wonder how the Manning trade would work considering his contract. He's owed $28M in March, as the article states, or he becomes a free agent. Who picks up that tab? How many teams would be willing or able to take on his contract?

Very good point.

Goatcheese
12-06-2011, 04:53 PM
I wonder how the Manning trade would work considering his contract. He's owed $28M in March, as the article states, or he becomes a free agent. Who picks up that tab? How many teams would be willing or able to take on his contract?

Most experts seem to think his contract makes him pretty much untradable. They either have to cut him before the big money hit or they are going to keep him.

paycheck71
12-06-2011, 05:03 PM
Most experts seem to think his contract makes him pretty much untradable. They either have to cut him before the big money hit or they are going to keep him.

If that's the case, I'm fine with them taking Luck. They're going to need some serious rebuilding. On the other hand, keeping Manning, if healthy, and trading the #1 pick could beef up their areas of need much quicker.

pirbroke
12-07-2011, 06:11 AM
Remember when Bush was a lock for the 1st overall pick in the draft, I just have a feeling history is going to repeat itself again but this time the colts can shock the world. hopefully the world will be right this time though, LOL.

Ryan
12-07-2011, 06:00 PM
I'd rather them have Luck than Manning. There's a 99% chance that Luck won't be as good or better than Manning and he's been our achilles heel since 2002.

Norg
12-07-2011, 06:44 PM
If the colts were smart they would trade there number 1 pick and keep manning

paycheck71
12-07-2011, 06:51 PM
Heard Lombardi explain on NFLN that if the Colts want to trade Manning, they'd have to redo his contract, which, according to him, is very doable. I'm not exactly sure why he would want to redo his contract and be traded to a team that would have to give up quite a bit for him instead of just getting released and signing with whomever he'd like.

Kgbmedic
12-07-2011, 08:47 PM
I think the Manning family is way too media savvy for this not to be a planned statement. Archie is sending a message for Peyton.

Agree with this, as I was reading the attached article I was thinking that they were laying down the ground work for something else be it more money or walking papers. May have been a temper tantrum to get his way so that "With the first overall pick worth more than ever this year, Peyton surely would prefer that the Colts trade the rights to Luck for players and/or draft picks who could help Peyton win more Super Bowls."

Only room for one meglamanic.

HJam72
12-07-2011, 08:52 PM
After we win the Superbowl, he can be our 3rd stringer behind Yates and Schaub next year. :koolaid:

TexCanada
12-07-2011, 08:53 PM
Heard Lombardi explain on NFLN that if the Colts want to trade Manning, they'd have to redo his contract, which, according to him, is very doable. I'm not exactly sure why he would want to redo his contract and be traded to a team that would have to give up quite a bit for him instead of just getting released and signing with whomever he'd like.

The Colts would never just release him. They will get a huge amount back for him in a trade as long as his contract allows it.

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 08:54 PM
I had a feeling this would happen...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/06/archie-manning-doubts-that-peyton-and-andrew-luck-want-to-be-teammates/related/

I'd prefer the Colts to find a way to get rid of Peyton and go into re-building mode. If the Colts trade their #1, they can get alot of quality players! Including a healthy Peyton, Colts have a good chance of re-claiming the AFC South next season.

Yeah, I was thinking like a loser too.

paycheck71
12-07-2011, 09:01 PM
The Colts would never just release him. They will get a huge amount back for him in a trade as long as his contract allows it.

If they don't release him, they owe him $28M. As things are, his contract is prohibitive of any trades. Why would he agree to redo it, which would not be beneficial to him in any way, unless I'm missing something.

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 09:10 PM
I wonder how the Manning trade would work considering his contract. He's owed $28M in March, as the article states, or he becomes a free agent. Who picks up that tab? How many teams would be willing or able to take on his contract?

There are a lot of teams that are way below the 2013 minimum they have to spend.

I think Tampa Bay is one of those teams that were $30 million or so under the minimum.

TexCanada
12-07-2011, 09:13 PM
If they don't release him, they owe him $28M. As things are, his contract is prohibitive of any trades. Why would he agree to redo it, which would not be beneficial to him in any way, unless I'm missing something.

Releasing him would destroy that team. Luck isn't going to be able to save that sinking ship. Their only chance of survival is to trade one their valuable assets: Manning or the #1. If it isn't possible to trade Manning then they have to see what teams are willing to give up for Luck.

Of course this all depends on Manning getting healthy again.

infantrycak
12-08-2011, 09:19 AM
There are a lot of teams that are way below the 2013 minimum they have to spend.

I think Tampa Bay is one of those teams that were $30 million or so under the minimum.

The receiving team isn't the issue. The $28 mil option bonus is due before the trade period starts so it would go on the Colts cap.

Dutchrudder
12-08-2011, 09:27 AM
Think of the teams that would be immediate Super Bowl favorites if they got Manning next year... The Jets, Ravens, 49ers, Bears, all the good defense teams with poor offenses would be awesome with Manning. I bet there would be a lot of willing trade partners if they shipped him off.

ziggy29
12-08-2011, 10:09 AM
Archie needs to stop treating his kids like, well, kids. They are mature adults able to make their own decisions.

Goatcheese
12-08-2011, 10:50 AM
The receiving team isn't the issue. The $28 mil option bonus is due before the trade period starts so it would go on the Colts cap.

Their cap would eat the 28 million option and the rest of the $20 million signing bonus for a total of $44 million in dead money against the cap in 2012. There is also 6.4 million in unspecified guaranteed money and I'm not sure how that would affect things.

TdotTexas2Step
12-08-2011, 10:54 AM
Archie needs to stop treating his kids like, well, kids. They are mature adults able to make their own decisions.

This was most likely planned. Peyton gets his message across, but doesn't have to deal with any media or fan backlash because the quote didn't come specifically from him.

thunderkyss
12-09-2011, 12:28 PM
Archie mis-spoke (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7327351/archie-manning-new-take-peyton-manning-andrew-luck-co-exist-indianapolis-colts)

"I'm sure they could," Archie Manning said in a phone interview Wednesday. "Andrew is a great young man and we've enjoyed getting to know him. He and Peyton have a friendship, and I'm one of the few people out there that's not really concerned about this deal. All good people respect each other and I'm sure this will all shake out."

The connection between the Mannings and the Lucks dates back almost three decades when Archie Manning and Luck's father, Oliver, were teammates in Houston.

Read more: http://www.sports790.com/pages/dylan.html#ixzz1g3zN8R00


I really don't think Archie meant anything like what most people are saying. Andrew Luck doesn't want to be a back-up any more than Aaron Rogers wanted to, Peyton doesn't want to know his "replacement" is on the bench any more than Farve did, but they made it work, they're both level headed people.

infantrycak
12-09-2011, 12:44 PM
I really don't think Archie meant anything like what most people are saying. Andrew Luck doesn't want to be a back-up any more than Aaron Rogers wanted to, Peyton doesn't want to know his "replacement" is on the bench any more than Farve did, but they made it work, they're both level headed people.

Favre had never missed a game. Manning is coming off a season ending injury that very well could be career ending. Favre had an expensive but manageable contract. Manning is due a $28 mil option bonus prior to the league year. Rogers unexpectedly plummeted in the draft. We are looking at #1 overall on Luck. The scenarios aren't very similar.

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2011, 12:47 PM
I am not really concerned what either Luck or Manning want. Neither are on this team and they are both paid or will be paid extremely well. Just do your job, and earn your check.

thunderkyss
12-09-2011, 02:00 PM
Favre had never missed a game. Manning is coming off a season ending injury that very well could be career ending. Favre had an expensive but manageable contract. Manning is due a $28 mil option bonus prior to the league year. Rogers unexpectedly plummeted in the draft. We are looking at #1 overall on Luck. The scenarios aren't very similar.

I'm looking at it from the Veteran doesn't want to face the reality that his career may be over.... soon

& the young guy doesn't want to be a back-up, he wants to start.

beerlover
12-09-2011, 02:06 PM
Favre had never missed a game. Manning is coming off a season ending injury that very well could be career ending. Favre had an expensive but manageable contract. Manning is due a $28 mil option bonus prior to the league year. Rogers unexpectedly plummeted in the draft. We are looking at #1 overall on Luck. The scenarios aren't very similar.

I wouldn't mind if RG3 plummets....all the way to the Texans :wesmantexanfan:

burro
12-11-2011, 01:43 AM
One of two things will happen:

a) The Colts let Peyton go to rebuild with Luck and it's a Tim Couch redux. For all we know, Luck could be a phenomenal player - but inserting a rookie into a team that is absolutely horrid on both sides of the ball is never a smart move. I'm assuming that Luck is smart enough to know this.

or b) Andrew Luck politely declines the "opportunity" to replace Peyton Manning. This being the case, I would expect him to drop to the #5 pick (barring a trade bargain). There's a lot of football left to play before we know the draft order, but my gut tells me that if this scenario plays out he'll either be sent to Philly or Washington, with Tampa Bay being an outside contender depending on how their season turns out.