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srrono
12-06-2011, 08:56 AM
!st qtr at 12:21 ATL ran a flea flicker play
KJ was lined up on the left covering Jones. Jones went 10yds crossed the middle HOU safetys both bit on the flea flicker accept KJ who broke off Jones and chased down a wide open R.White and got the INT. If you still have the game on DVR watch the slow motion replay and you will see.

Texan_Bill
12-06-2011, 08:59 AM
If Turner doesn't botch the flip back to Ryan, it's a touchdown.

HJam72
12-06-2011, 09:00 AM
I think that was a trick play designed by the D. KJ was supposed to do that. Pretty risky to be having DBs do things like that, if it was really a designed defensive play, but it worked wonders.

HJam72
12-06-2011, 09:00 AM
If Turner doesn't botch the flip back to Ryan, it's a touchdown.

Yep, that's true as well. The pass was short.

txns4lf
12-06-2011, 09:23 AM
I think Kareem played great that game...one of the best i think ive seen him play since hes been a texan...it doesnt matter if the ball was under thrown he made a great play on an offensive mistake thats why hes out there...also lets not forget about him caving roddy whites chest in when he tried to come over the middle.....great came kareem keep it up

Premier
12-06-2011, 10:18 AM
If Turner doesn't botch the flip back to Ryan, it's a touchdown.

IF's dont allow you to assume what would have happened..

TejasTom
12-06-2011, 10:20 AM
... KJ who broke off Jones and chased down a wide open R.White and got the INT...

This was a great play and not the 1st time this year KJ broke off his guy to cover someone going deep uncovered.

His play has improved tremendously this year. It is much easier to see at the game than on TV.

The ball was short because Ryan was throwing off his back foot because he got plastered as he threw the ball.

And for those of you in "if this, if that", the last year we were 4 plays from being 10-6. We are making the plays now.

Texan_Bill
12-06-2011, 10:47 AM
IF's dont allow you to assume what would have happened..

Brilliant deduction! :rolleyes:

If "IF" were a fifth we'd all be drunk! :wadepalm:

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 10:49 AM
!st qtr at 12:21 ATL ran a flea flicker play
KJ was lined up on the left covering Jones. Jones went 10yds crossed the middle HOU safetys both bit on the flea flicker accept KJ who broke off Jones and chased down a wide open R.White and got the INT. If you still have the game on DVR watch the slow motion replay and you will see.

There is another play where Jones is wide open coming off the right side. It was early in the game.

Looked like they were playing man, presnap, but as the receiver got to Kj, he allowed the receiver to cut inside & made no attempt to follow him. The safety was nowhere around & Kj was yards behind Jones.

Luckily the ball was overthrown. I haven't studied that play enough to figure out what went wrong there, but something definitely went wrong. I wouldn't say that Kj got beat, because he made no attempt to stay with Julio.

But, I think that is the play that another poster had confused with this INT that you are talking about.

The Pencil Neck
12-06-2011, 11:01 AM
IF's dont allow you to assume what would have happened..

They do if you're Texan_Bill.

For mere mortals like you and me, you're right.

dream_team
12-06-2011, 11:06 AM
If Turner doesn't botch the flip back to Ryan, it's a touchdown.

Just about every turnover is because the offense screwed up somewhere. If Ryan threw it to where Jones was running, that would have been a TD as well and Allen wouldn't have gotten his INT. Most INTs are because of poor throws, miscommunication, or tipped balls. The important thing is our defense took advantage of when the offense screws up.

Good play by KJ for taking advantage of an error on the Falcon's offense.

Premier
12-06-2011, 11:09 AM
Brilliant deduction! :rolleyes:

If "IF" were a fifth we'd all be drunk! :wadepalm:

sure.... create any scenario that helps your argument, of course, this is a message board where everyone has to be right and post count = intelligence (you brainiac, you :fingergun: ) still, the facts are...... there was a ball up for grabs and kareem jackson came down with it.. thats what ACTUALLY happened, i dont need to create imaginary situations to give my argument any substance.. i prefer facts over your imagination and ASSumptions..

santo
12-06-2011, 11:30 AM
Look like Matt just threw the ball and was expecting Julio Jones to catch it, but Julio looked like he was running straight and didn't even see the ball thrown. KJ saw it and came back for it.

Matt should have never threw the pass in the first place because I think Julio Jones wasn't even expecting it.

Texan_Bill
12-06-2011, 11:37 AM
They do if you're Texan_Bill.

For mere mortals like you and me, you're right.

Bottom line, Kareem and the entire secondary were beaten, badly. It took Atlanta shooting themselves in the foot, not Kareem making some great play. Hell, us old timers could've picked that off. That was the point.

******************************

That said, I actually think KJ has been playing better. It's nice to see what a little coaching, some better talent around and pressure on QB can do for DB, although he did almost give up a game tying TD.

srrono
12-06-2011, 12:08 PM
On the 1st play deep that jones beat his man that was KJ being beat, on the 3rd play where again jones beat his man deep that was Joseph on him.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 12:20 PM
Look like Matt just threw the ball and was expecting Julio Jones to catch it, but Julio looked like he was running straight and didn't even see the ball thrown. KJ saw it and came back for it.

Matt should have never threw the pass in the first place because I think Julio Jones wasn't even expecting it.

If Matt Ryan wasn't pummeled when he threw the ball, it probably would have been a lot closer to Julio than Kareem.

Bottom line, Kareem and the entire secondary were beaten, badly. It took Atlanta shooting themselves in the foot, not Kareem making some great play. Hell, us old timers could've picked that off. That was the point.

******************************

That said, I actually think KJ has been playing better. It's nice to see what a little coaching, some better talent around and pressure on QB can do for DB, although he did almost give up a game tying TD.

If you go back to the Kareem Jackson thread... uh, the one where 76Texan defends him... uh, the one with 100 pictures.... well, in one of the Kareem Jackson threads, 76 posts a picture of the defense for a play like that. it's a standard defense for a 2 man route.

The Safety is supposed to drop down & cover the man crossing from the offside (which is the man Kareem is lined up against pre-snap). This makes the QB think there is no safety help. However, the off CB (Kareem) takes the place of the safety by running to the spot the receiver is running. Which there is no way of telling if Kj would have got there or not, he saw the ball in the air & adjusted to it.

With that particular defense called, the left CB (Jjo) has to guard the outside & the underneath, it would be impossible for him to cover every single route, but that is his responsibility, the outside & underneath, so his job at the LOS is to make sure the WR does not get to the outside. He will then fall to a trail position where he can cover the underneath stuff (curls, comebacks, & digs).

I think the play worked as designed including the pass rush getting to the QB.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 12:27 PM
Here's a diagram/photo of what I think was the defensive playcall.... (Thank you 76 for sharing your knowledge (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83114&highlight=plight))

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/3-Cover1SlantPost.jpg

By the way, the last post in that thread was made by me 3 weeks ago. I figured once we started winning, that would be the case.

Never would I have thought someone would bring it up when the one guy who didn't get beat, was Kareem Jackson & he made a play that got us the ball to boot.

If that's not hating, I don't know what is.

srrono
12-06-2011, 12:56 PM
Here's a diagram/photo of what I think was the defensive playcall.... (Thank you 76 for sharing your knowledge (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83114&highlight=plight))

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/3-Cover1SlantPost.jpg

By the way, the last post in that thread was made by me 3 weeks ago. I figured once we started winning, that would be the case.

Never would I have thought someone would bring it up when the one guy who didn't get beat, was Kareem Jackson & he made a play that got us the ball to boot.

If that's not hating, I don't know what is.

I posted this to give KJ some credit, I nave thought KJ has been mostly under the radar this year accept the NO game where ha was abused. If any cant see a difference from last year to this year in KJ I think they are judging KJ by his past and not his present.

Dishman
12-06-2011, 01:12 PM
Here's a diagram/photo of what I think was the defensive playcall.... (Thank you 76 for sharing your knowledge (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83114&highlight=plight))

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/3-Cover1SlantPost.jpg

By the way, the last post in that thread was made by me 3 weeks ago. I figured once we started winning, that would be the case.

Never would I have thought someone would bring it up when the one guy who didn't get beat, was Kareem Jackson & he made a play that got us the ball to boot.

If that's not hating, I don't know what is.

We've winning been much longer than just the last 3 weeks and the Kareem Affair hasn't dissapeared, just move down the block:http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87516&page=7

silvrhand
12-06-2011, 04:03 PM
KJ sucks.. he should have picked that off, ran over 2 guards, a tackle, and then took it to the house. Only then his TD celebration should be a double backflip into the air and land on the goalpost spiking the ball into the net.


/sigh

pbat488
12-06-2011, 04:19 PM
I think that was a trick play designed by the D.

defense's don't call trick plays..

it could've been some type of combo coverage or just a heads-up play by kjax, but it wasn't a trick play.

Mr teX
12-06-2011, 05:11 PM
That flea flicker play was called to get at 1 guy & 1 guy only.......Daniel Manning.

This dude has a history of biting hard on play fakes, jumping routes & just generally too eager coming down field to support the run. Teams around the league know this & we've seen this a few times this year already. It's 1 of the main reasons Chicago wasn't too broken up to let him go.

If you look at that play on NFL network, The Falcons got the exact reaction they thought they would from Manning as he jumped Jones on the slant. Had Ryan been able to set his feet, it was sure to be a TD. & just b/c KJ would've been the 1st guy chasing jones from behind, Everyone on this board would've been making a "KJ Sucks" thread.

EllisUnit
12-06-2011, 09:34 PM
IF's dont allow you to assume what would have happened..

haha well then you shouldnt read this board. Last season and this season while DEFENDING KJ everything that has been brought up is ifs. If the safety, if the coaches bla bla bla. Get used to it on here bud :wild:

that being said i love this message board and everyone on it, even though we may disagree on just about everything. :thisbig:

Dishman
12-06-2011, 09:54 PM
KJ sucks.. he should have picked that off, ran over 2 guards, a tackle, and then took it to the house. Only then his TD celebration should be a double backflip into the air and land on the goalpost spiking the ball into the net.


/sigh

You forgot about the part where he sprints out of the stadium and bakes everyone cupcakes in celebration. C'mon, Son!

76Texan
12-06-2011, 10:12 PM
defense's don't call trick plays..

it could've been some type of combo coverage or just a heads-up play by kjax, but it wasn't a trick play.

That flea flicker play was called to get at 1 guy & 1 guy only.......Daniel Manning.

This dude has a history of biting hard on play fakes, jumping routes & just generally too eager coming down field to support the run. Teams around the league know this & we've seen this a few times this year already. It's 1 of the main reasons Chicago wasn't too broken up to let him go.

If you look at that play on NFL network, The Falcons got the exact reaction they thought they would from Manning as he jumped Jones on the slant. Had Ryan been able to set his feet, it was sure to be a TD. & just b/c KJ would've been the 1st guy chasing jones from behind, Everyone on this board would've been making a "KJ Sucks" thread.

This is a play that I mentioned in the two-receiver route thread.
Yeah, it was designed to "play" the safety.

The safety may step down to take the crosser or to play the run (depending on the play called) if he's not supposed to stay back and play deep safety.

The off-side CB (Jackson) takes the post.

In this case, the off-side CB (J Jo) came back to take the crosser (either by design or as the last resort.)

We can't be exactly sure of the D call, but my guess is that the safety came down because the run "was supposed to be" up the middle (while JJo takes on the crosser as it turned out on this play.)

If the fake run went to the outside, JJo would come up while the safety stays with the crosser.

Texan_Bill
12-06-2011, 10:27 PM
This is a play that I mentioned in the two-receiver route thread.
Yeah, it was designed to "play" the safety.

The safety may step down to take the crosser or to play the run (depending on the play called) if he's not supposed to stay back and play deep safety.

The off-side CB (Jackson) takes the post.

In this case, the off-side CB (J Jo) came back to take the crosser (either by design or as the last resort.)

We can't be exactly sure of the D call, but my guess is that the safety came down because the run "was supposed to be" up the middle (while JJo takes on the crosser as it turned out on this play.)

If the fake run went to the outside, JJo would come up while the safety stays with the crosser.

Hey John.......... Love ya ma brother, but let's get to bidness.

I suggested that if the RB didn't choke the pitch back to Ryan that that would've been an easy TD for the ATL.. (BTW, I haf a bunch of newbies that tried to try and ride me for my thoughts)............Of course I I give a rats ass about their opinions BUT had a few new folks that suggested I was full of shite, because of course it didn't happen..

My point was this; Should my toe hurt because I stubbed it??

76Texan
12-07-2011, 12:13 AM
Hey John.......... Love ya ma brother, but let's get to bidness.

I suggested that if the RB didn't choke the pitch back to Ryan that that would've been an easy TD for the ATL.. (BTW, I haf a bunch of newbies that tried to try and ride me for my thoughts)............Of course I I give a rats ass about their opinions BUT had a few new folks that suggested I was full of shite, because of course it didn't happen..

My point was this; Should my toe hurt because I stubbed it??

You have a very valid point.
That is if the offense called for a skinny post.
It would make for a more difficult catch but if it was a great throw and a great catch, it has a strong possibility for a TD.

However, the way the ball was thrown suggested a post route (or "sight-adjusted" post route).
Ryans was aiming for inside the hashmarks.
Any throw straight down the middle obviously is the easiest one for the QB.

The receiver had "semi-faked" a run block, so when he actually started his route, he was pretty much on the hashmarks.
He veered slightly to the outside so he can get ready to adjust to either throw the QB would make.

The way the 2-man route was designed, it has to take into account the defensive look. (On the one hand, the defense doesn't know where deep receiver will go.) On the other hand, the offense doesn't know (at the outset) whether the D will drop into cover 3, or one of the safety will stay deep in the middle while the CBs play man, or both safeties stayed over the top in cover 2, or the D will turn into an inverted cover 2, etc.

For one reason or another, what I've seen over and over again is either a skinny post or a post route for the deep receiver.

And since the Texans gave a cover 2 look at the outset, it's probably easiest for the QB/receiver to get in sync with a post route.

The best case of this scenario for the Falcons, IMO, is for the receiver to beat out Jackson at the ball in the middle.
It's always a possibility, but I don't think it would be an easy TD.
The next possibility is a catch and a tackle.
More likely, however, again IMO, is an incompletion.
And the interception is still in the card simply because the QB didn't expect this D-call.
I can't put a percentage point to any of those scenarios with any authority like 70/30 or anything of the sort!

The Falcons knows Wade's defense pretty thoroughly, but at the same time, our backends vary and disguise coverage just as well; it becomes a guessing game for the Offense and a chess match that was fun (for me) to watch.

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 07:38 AM
Hey John.......... Love ya ma brother, but let's get to bidness.

I suggested that if the RB didn't choke the pitch back to Ryan that that would've been an easy TD for the ATL.. (BTW, I haf a bunch of newbies that tried to try and ride me for my thoughts)............Of course I I give a rats ass about their opinions BUT had a few new folks that suggested I was full of shite, because of course it didn't happen..

My point was this; Should my toe hurt because I stubbed it??

For the most part, I think you're right. Most of the Houston secondary bit on the flea flicker. Had Ryan got the ball back in time, or had Ryan been able to step into that throw, that would have been a sure 6.

However our DL was getting penetration, which caused the hesitation by Turner, for all we know he may have had the option to keep it & continue to run up-field if he didn't like what he saw.

& iirc Ryan got smacked as he released the ball which is the main reason the ball was under-thrown.

Mr teX
12-07-2011, 10:12 AM
This is a play that I mentioned in the two-receiver route thread.
Yeah, it was designed to "play" the safety.

The safety may step down to take the crosser or to play the run (depending on the play called) if he's not supposed to stay back and play deep safety.

The off-side CB (Jackson) takes the post.

In this case, the off-side CB (J Jo) came back to take the crosser (either by design or as the last resort.)

We can't be exactly sure of the D call, but my guess is that the safety came down because the run "was supposed to be" up the middle (while JJo takes on the crosser as it turned out on this play.)

If the fake run went to the outside, JJo would come up while the safety stays with the crosser.

i'm unaware of any secondary coverage scheme that has both safeties coming down in the box like Quinn & Manning did on that play.

I'm also unaware of any secondary coverage that calls for a cb to come damn near clear across the field to cover a deep area of the field...which is what KJ did on this particular play when he came from way outside the right hash mark to just inside the left hash mark to make the play. Crazy coverage disguises like that are reserved for special players & athletes like Troy Polamalu & Ed Reed...which noone in our secondary is even close to.

Its pretty clear to me what the falcons were trying to do with that play & that's take advantage of both of our safeties aggressiveness by showing a pro-running formation (evidenced by having the 2 WR's & the TE all in tight) & reinforcing that by faking a run with Turner & then having your primary target (White) fake a block down field. & the play would've worked like a charm too b/c everyone back there bit on the fake run........except for KJ.

If KJ bites on the flea flicker like everyone else in the secondary did, he doesn't make it back there to make the pick regardless of how badly Ryan throws it. We knocked him all last year for his bad play but this is 1 play that he deserves props for b/c It was just simply a great play by the kid.

As far as what T-skyss is saying, Ryan was about to be smacked but he could've made a better throw if he stands in their like a man, accepts his fate & lays into the throw..Instead he pulled a blaine Gabbert & faded before he got hit. There's only a few qb's in the league who can do that & still get enough arm strength on the ball to get it out there & he ain't 1 of them.

76Texan
12-08-2011, 05:56 PM
i'm unaware of any secondary coverage scheme that has both safeties coming down in the box like Quinn & Manning did on that play.



Actually there are several.

Cover Zero is one.

Then we have the inverted cover two.
Some variations are:

- the 54 inverted (in which both CBs actually line up deeper than the safeties).

- the 52 inverted (with the safeties come down to play the run and usually drop to the flat upon reading pass - The CBs took over the deep 1/2 just the same as in the 54). Some sees the 52 inverted as a 34 with 1/4 look in the secondary so that the safeties can come down to play the run.

- Cover 2 Robber (with a safety (or both) dropping underneath of a receiver who already has a corner covering over top of him – as long as he is not needed to cover any other vertical threat.


I'm also unaware of any secondary coverage that calls for a cb to come damn near clear across the field to cover a deep area of the field...which is what KJ did on this particular play when he came from way outside the right hash mark to just inside the left hash mark to make the play. Crazy coverage disguises like that are reserved for special players & athletes like Troy Polamalu & Ed Reed...which noone in our secondary is even close to.





The drop-kick call that I mentioned is also based the same concept of the inverted cover 2.

- SS (Quin) comes down to play the run or the TE;

- FS (Manning) does the same but he takes on the crosser if he reads pass.
I think this is what we had on, only Manning didn't read pass soon enough.

- Off-side CB (Jackson) takes the post;

- On-side CB (JJo) cuts off the crosser as the backup in case the FS failed his read.

However, it could be that Manning was free to go as he knows JJo and KJ can take care of the receivers as described above (in this case, nobody messed up).