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dream_team
12-04-2011, 10:18 PM
should be considered a top contender for Coach of the Year. The only other serious contenders right now should be Mike Mcarthy, for obvious reasons, and Jim Harbaugh.

I know everyone in here wants to give all the credit to Wade... but unfortunately, he's not eligible to win.

Allstar
12-04-2011, 10:24 PM
If Denver wins out, I'd put Fox in the conversation as well.

Playoffs
12-04-2011, 10:29 PM
If Denver wins out, I'd put Fox in the conversation as well.Yep, and Marvin Lewis.

dream_team
12-04-2011, 10:46 PM
The reason I'd give Kubiak the nod over anyone else (besides Mcarthy) is none of those other teams had to deal with the injuries the Texans have had to deal with. So many times we could have folded and had valid excuses to lose, but there's no quit in this team!

steelbtexan
12-04-2011, 10:49 PM
I wouldn't give it to Gary because I hate him. LOL

Seriously, I would give it to Fox. He changed his entire offense midseason to fit what Tebow does best. They're on a roll.

Dutchrudder
12-04-2011, 10:55 PM
Jim Harbaugh for sure. He took a 6-10 team and turned them into a 10-2 team so far, and I expect them to be at least 12-4 at the end of the season. Kubiak winning the award would be laughable as he hasn't really done anything different this year, it's defense that changed the culture of the organization.

Hookem Horns
12-04-2011, 10:56 PM
I know everyone in here wants to give all the credit to Wade... but unfortunately, he's not eligible to win.

True, but honestly Wade deserves the most credit. The attitude of that defense has spread to the entire team. They have everyone believing now.

OK, everyone but Kubiak considering he still can't watch the crucial plays. :kitten: ;)

Edit: See Dutch's post above. He said better what I was trying to say.

Lucky
12-04-2011, 10:56 PM
Jim Harbaugh is the coach of the year. Kubiak deserves recognition, mainly due to Wade Phillips' tremendous turnaround of the defense.

TexansFanatic
12-04-2011, 10:58 PM
should be considered a top contender for Coach of the Year. The only other serious contenders right now should be Mike Mcarthy, for obvious reasons, and Jim Harbaugh.

I know everyone in here wants to give all the credit to Wade... but unfortunately, he's not eligible to win.

Who chooses the winner? Is that a sportswriter thing? Or is it the other coaches?

Kubiak may have the upper hand depending on who chooses. He seems like a really well-liked person. Harbaugh---not so much.

McCarthy should certainly get it if the Pack goes undefeated.

bckey
12-04-2011, 11:27 PM
should be considered a top contender for Coach of the Year. The only other serious contenders right now should be Mike Mcarthy, for obvious reasons, and Jim Harbaugh.

I know everyone in here wants to give all the credit to Wade... but unfortunately, he's not eligible to win.

Absolutely no way Kubiak should win coach of the year. And please stop posting unfinished thread titles.

TdotTexas2Step
12-04-2011, 11:38 PM
Wade Phillips will be the primary reason why Kubiak doesn't win it.

rollinstone18
12-04-2011, 11:42 PM
no, he shouldn't. and i dislike the kubiak haters as much as okies from muskogee. y'all raped this board for two seasons. let us have this one and just try to enjoy football, goddamnit.

steelbtexan
12-04-2011, 11:54 PM
I'm thrilled Gary is doing well.

How was the MB raped?

What's with the cursing?

houstonspartan
12-05-2011, 12:09 AM
This is Wade's team. It is Wade's season. He did this.

However, I have been impressed with how Kubiak has handled the QB disaster. He doesn't appear to be panicking, and seems to be methodically, and calmly, pushing ahead, doing what he has to do to win. Kubiak seems confident.

But, guess why he's confident? Because we have a solid defense. Guess who is in charge of that?

Get it?

GP
12-05-2011, 12:10 AM
Absolutely no way Kubiak should win coach of the year. And please stop posting unfinished thread titles.

I actually have to......

GP
12-05-2011, 12:11 AM
agree with you.

The titles that try to leave you hanging are pretty bogus. Just state the title, don't try to make it a cliff hanger. It just ends up being a dingleberry instead.

GP
12-05-2011, 12:16 AM
I'm thrilled Gary is doing well.

How was the MB raped?

What's with the cursing?

I agree. I'm trying to curb my own cussing (on here AND in real life). I'd never been a cusser until the past year, now it's getting out of hand. I think it's because of me being a Texans fan--I'm worn down and had gotten potty mouth syndrome due to the anxiety of it all. LOL.

no, he shouldn't. and i dislike the kubiak haters as much as okies from muskogee. y'all raped this board for two seasons. let us have this one and just try to enjoy football, goddamnit.

Nobody's stealing your victory dance. Continue to party on in whatever fashion you desire.

The conversation is about IF Kubiak deserves Coach of The Year or not.

I happen to weigh in with the opinion that Harbaugh taking the reins as a first-year NFL coach, doing something positive with Alex What's His Name at QB--when other coaches have NOT been able to--and romping through the NFL like Tebow on the white horse of the Apocalypse is worthy of Coach of the Year.

McCarthy would be 2nd, due to somehow being undefeated when most Super Bowl teams regress the next year.

Kubiak in 3rd.

How's THAT for peeing on your parade? j/k, don't be mad at me....

Texecutioner
12-05-2011, 12:27 AM
Wade does deserve more of the glory for this team's turn around, but the award does only go to a head coach, and I would have to give it to Kubiak over everyone else due to the amount of bad injuries the Texans have suffered and yet we're 9-3. I think the way we've battled through the adversity as a team has been more impressive than any other team.

I can't believe I"m saying this, but right now I'd give it to Gary Kubiak.

GP
12-05-2011, 12:29 AM
Wade does deserve more of the glory for this team's turn around, but the award does only go to a head coach, and I would have to give it to Kubiak over everyone else due to the amount of bad injuries the Texans have suffered and yet we're 9-3. I think the way we've battled through the adversity as a team has been more impressive than any other team.

I can't believe I"m saying this, but right now I'd give it to Gary Kubiak.

Traitor to the cause.

I am marking this down in my notebook, sir.

Texecutioner
12-05-2011, 12:32 AM
Traitor to the cause.

I am marking this down in my notebook, sir.

I have to give credit where it's due this year, and I've wanted Gary to make me say this for years. Finally there has been a regular season that he can hang his hat on. I do realize that it's been mainly due to Wade Phillips, but he is still the HC of this team and that is who the award goes to. I'd take Harbaugh first, but the Niners haven't dealt with anything close to what the Texans have injury wise and we're still on a winning streak. We're over achieving and I like it. :bravo:

Rey
12-05-2011, 12:48 AM
Kubiak hands down. If he's going to take the blame in defeat then he gets the glory in victory.

Wade has been tremendous though and if kubiak won he should at the least acknowledge he is splitting it with wade.

GP
12-05-2011, 12:52 AM
I have to give credit where it's due this year, and I've wanted Gary to make me say this for years. Finally there has been a regular season that he can hang his hat on. I do realize that it's been mainly due to Wade Phillips, but he is still the HC of this team and that is who the award goes to. I'd take Harbaugh first, but the Niners haven't dealt with anything close to what the Texans have injury wise and we're still on a winning streak. We're over achieving and I like it. :bravo:

You even dropped the sig pic, too.

LOL.

Is this you (see below) Tex? Just teasing, btw.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/gpshafer_1976/sunshine.jpg

You know, I can see why the injuries to our key players and having a 3rd string QB manage to play decently and get us the plays we needed can earn Kubiak a HCOTY award. It's alright by me.

clutch
12-05-2011, 01:08 AM
i think every one knows it will be Jim Harbaugh.. if wade phillips was the head coach then of coarse he would get it..not sure if they have a defensive coordinator award??

TheMatrix31
12-05-2011, 01:20 AM
I don't see how it's anyone besides Jim Harbaugh.

That said, what Gary (and Wade, obviously) has done this year has been nothing short of spectacular.

dream_team
12-05-2011, 01:39 AM
I don't see how it's anyone besides Jim Harbaugh.

That said, what Gary (and Wade, obviously) has done this year has been nothing short of spectacular.

If the season ended today, I don't see how it's anyone besides Mike Mcarthy. I think if you go the regular season undefeated, you have to be coach of the year.

I would give 2nd place to Kubiak, though. In 2010, 49ers and Texans were 6-10. They are now only one game apart, so the improvement is similar. I also think the Texans had a slightly tougher schedule. But the cherry on top are the injuries. Texans have played majority of their games without their best player (AJ) and their best defensive player (Mario), not to mention Foster basically missing 3 games. And now we're down to our 3rd string rookie QB, but still finds ways to win?

I wanted Kubiak gone last season just like everyone else, but I'm calling it like I see it this season.

TheMatrix31
12-05-2011, 02:52 AM
The Packers were expected to be great though.

For one coach to come in, completely change the culture of the team, turn Alex Smith into something good, and to be what 2nd in the NFC? Especially for a rookie coach making the jump from college to the pros?

I could see Kubiak being 2nd or third place behind Harbaugh and McCarthy.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 03:42 AM
Jim Harbaugh for sure. He took a 6-10 team and turned them into a 10-2 team so far, and I expect them to be at least 12-4 at the end of the season. Kubiak winning the award would be laughable as he hasn't really done anything different this year, it's defense that changed the culture of the organization.

eh..... IMO, the 49ers are a 12-4 team like the 2010 Bucs were a 10-6 team. The only impressive win they have so far....... the Giants. We'll see how far they fall next year.

By the same token, injuries or not, I'm taking the 9-3 Texans with a grain of salt. Kubiak doesn't need to be considered for coach of the year until we win a couple of play-off games (one of them will probably be against Tebow).

But this is a regular season award.... & they both should be in the conversation.

Maddict5
12-05-2011, 03:50 AM
he definitely deserves to be in the conversation... hes done a great job this year. the whole team has

buddyboy
12-05-2011, 03:53 AM
After years of poor defenses and poor DCs, Kubiak has taken tons of blame because, ultimately, the product on the field is his responsibility.

Now, after the defense starts playing well, Kubiak suddenly has no part of the defensive improvement. If you take blame when things are bad, you deserve praise when things are good.

ObsiWan
12-05-2011, 04:12 AM
I don't see how it's anyone besides Jim Harbaugh.

That said, what Gary (and Wade, obviously) has done this year has been nothing short of spectacular.

The Packers were expected to be great though.

For one coach to come in, completely change the culture of the team, turn Alex Smith into something good, and to be what 2nd in the NFC? Especially for a rookie coach making the jump from college to the pros?

I could see Kubiak being 2nd or third place behind Harbaugh and McCarthy.

Neither Harbaugh nor McCarthy are winning with 2nd and 3rd string QBs or with their principal offensive weapon on the sideline for half the year.

Singletary had started instilling a winner's pride in that team when he got there in 2008; Harbaugh simply picked up where Samurai Mike left off. And being a former QB, he knew that Alex Smith just needed the right kind of guidance and an offense that didn't rely on him carrying the team but used Frank Gore and the defense that Singletary and Mike Nolan had put together.

Speaking of their defense, I saw where they had to help Patrick Willis off the field today. Let's see how they fare without the heart of that defense on the field.

toronto
12-05-2011, 05:59 AM
From the enemy here...

I think Kubiak deserves real consideration for coach of the year. To get to 9-3with the worst injuries to key players all season is a tribute to Kubiak and his staff, as well as insane good depth.

Deflect praise to Wade Philips if you must, but the buck always starts and stops with the head coach, so he should get the kudos.

GNTLEWOLF
12-05-2011, 06:00 AM
I have to give credit where it's due this year, and I've wanted Gary to make me say this for years. Finally there has been a regular season that he can hang his hat on. I do realize that it's been mainly due to Wade Phillips, but he is still the HC of this team and that is who the award goes to. I'd take Harbaugh first, but the Niners haven't dealt with anything close to what the Texans have injury wise and we're still on a winning streak. We're over achieving and I like it. :bravo:

Well stated. You have captured my feelings here very well. I was an ardant supporter of Kubiak when he came here. Since then I have been disappointed to say the least. I am glad this season is going as it is. The win today against a quality team in the Falcons has finally made me a believer that this season is more than smoke mirrors and weak schedule.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 07:10 AM
From the enemy here...

I think Kubiak deserves real consideration for coach of the year. To get to 9-3with the worst injuries to key players all season is a tribute to Kubiak and his staff, as well as insane good depth.


I'm not falling in love (again) with Gary Kubiak just yet. This team has never given up on him, I give him credit for that. This team has been overcoming adversity all year long, I give him credit for that. But that's the job of the head-coach & his job is far from over. Even though it is most likely that we'll win the division, we haven't clenched it. Even though there is a possibility that we'll win a play-off game.... we haven't done it yet.


While Kubiak has done a good job overcoming adversity, a lot of the credit also has to go with the players & that means Rick Smith. Last year we were talking about how talentless this team was. Earlier this season we were looking at the WR2 position & blaming Rick Smith for doing such a poor job.

But they found a way to win, found a way to overcome. We've got "problems" in all sorts of areas on this team, which I think is helping us overcome the adversity we've seen.

Our starting full-back..... Casey/Vickers? Starting RB... Foster/Tate (I know it's Foster's job, but Tate ain't no slouch). WR2, Jacoby/Walter honestly, they're doing that job as well as you could hope for. TE... Dressen/Daniels (again that's ODs job but there isn't a huge drop off to go to Dressen). MLB Cushing/Demeco..... OLB, Barwin/Reed look like starters, we got people wanting to trade away Mario..... CB2, Allen/Kareem not great, but getting the job done.

I'm just luv'n this team.

Thorn
12-05-2011, 07:17 AM
I have to give credit where it's due this year, and I've wanted Gary to make me say this for years. Finally there has been a regular season that he can hang his hat on. I do realize that it's been mainly due to Wade Phillips, but he is still the HC of this team and that is who the award goes to. I'd take Harbaugh first, but the Niners haven't dealt with anything close to what the Texans have injury wise and we're still on a winning streak. We're over achieving and I like it. :bravo:

The Texans are over achievers, that's for sure. Considering what has happened this year, the fact we are now 9-3 shows that. I been in the fire Kubiak club for several years now, but I have to say, he's done this year what I did not expect him capable of.

Four games to go, let's see what happens. :texflag:

b0ng
12-05-2011, 07:38 AM
Winning with TJ Yates has to give him some recognition.

TexanSam
12-05-2011, 10:07 AM
He'll definitely be in the conversation. I think Harbaugh from SF is the front runner, but if the Texans continue to win with TJ Yates as QB then Kubiak may just get it.

I'm kind of excited to see Kubiak get the gatorade bath from the players whenever we clinch the division. I've criticized him plenty the last year or two, but he deserves some of the credit for this season too. I'm also glad that we have a team good enough to give the coach a gatorade bath.

Marcus
12-05-2011, 10:41 AM
Kubiak, coach of the year?....

Can you imagine how many asses that would chap? LOL.

God, this season has been enjoyable for me in sooooo many ways. ;)

Texecutioner
12-05-2011, 10:51 AM
You even dropped the sig pic, too.

LOL.

Is this you (see below) Tex? Just teasing, btw.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/gpshafer_1976/sunshine.jpg

You know, I can see why the injuries to our key players and having a 3rd string QB manage to play decently and get us the plays we needed can earn Kubiak a HCOTY award. It's alright by me.

It had to get dropped at this point. THe banner hasn't left my data base though. This is one season. Kubiak needs to continue down this path going forward and give us some consistency of winning. I've given him props for this season. I haven't forgotten about his last 5 years though. If he can put together two back to back seasons like this though, that will put me in his corner completely. One season doesn't do that, especially when Wade is the bigger reason for the improvement here. I'll give him props for this season though. We have to be fair. We've asked for a team that could play to it's potential, and they've not only done that this year, but they have over achieved.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 11:02 AM
I have to give credit where it's due this year, and I've wanted Gary to make me say this for years. Finally there has been a regular season that he can hang his hat on. I do realize that it's been mainly due to Wade Phillips, but he is still the HC of this team and that is who the award goes to. I'd take Harbaugh first, but the Niners haven't dealt with anything close to what the Texans have injury wise and we're still on a winning streak. We're over achieving and I like it. :bravo:

wow...weren't you just bustin' my balls a couple of days ago for trying to remain optimistic in spite of "objective analysis"? :fingergun: just yanking your chain, man.

I think Harbaugh should get it for a one year turnaround. Kubiak has been building this team for 6 years, and if we are honest about it, he's lucky that our owner has the loyalty of a dog and the patience of a cat....that, and he listens to the advice of one Oail Andrew "Bum" Phillips about his genius son.

I do think Kubiak has done a good job this year, though, and it appears that learning on the job has paid off. His skill at taking care of the QB position has been invaluable, and he certainly deserves a lot of credit for it.

GP
12-05-2011, 11:05 AM
It had to get dropped at this point. THe banner hasn't left my data base though. This is one season. Kubiak needs to continue down this path going forward and give us some consistency of winning. I've given him props for this season. I haven't forgotten about his last 5 years though. If he can put together two back to back seasons like this though, that will put me in his corner completely. One season doesn't do that, especially when Wade is the bigger reason for the improvement here. I'll give him props for this season though. We have to be fair. We've asked for a team that could play to it's potential, and they've not only done that this year, but they have over achieved.

I agree. I really do.

After the way Yates played, it was evident that this season is ALREADY a success and we're finally getting some "return on investment" so to speak.

I still obviously want us to win the division. But if somehow the Texans have an extended brain fart and the Titans find a crazy way to win the rest of their games and edge us out for the title...I won't be mad. I won't. I won't be on here cursing Kubiak or McNair. Everyone has done their jobs this season, and they've answered the bell every round.

To me, with the way injuries have happened...especially at QB...to be 9-3 right now, and to be talked about as being in the same tier as Steelers/Patriots/Ravens???? When has THAT ever happened before? Never, until now.

Another big draft, retaining key free agents, etc., and a healthier year in 2012 just might do the trick. Sure, this season isn't over yet...but I am prepared to be pretty happy at what we accomplished considering last season AND the injury bug of this season.

Texecutioner
12-05-2011, 11:07 AM
wow...weren't you just bustin' my balls a couple of days ago for trying to remain optimistic in spite of "objective analysis"? :fingergun: just yanking your chain, man.

I think Harbaugh should get it for a one year turnaround. Kubiak has been building this team for 6 years, and if we are honest about it, he's lucky that our owner has the loyalty of a dog and the patience of a cat....that, and he listens to the advice of one Oail Andrew "Bum" Phillips about his genius son.

I do think Kubiak has done a good job this year, though, and it appears that learning on the job has paid off. His skill at taking care of the QB position has been invaluable, and he certainly deserves a lot of credit for it.

Well that's why I've stated that we're overachieving right now. I picked us to lose yesterday, and we found a way to win despite our circumstances and losing AJ once again. I still don't like our chances in the post season, but whatever we get I'll be pretty happy with the season over all. We just keep having to deal with blow after blow injury wise. Right after Yates starts getting a little confidence, he loses AJ AGAIN!! This is season is just unreal as far as injuries go.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 11:14 AM
Well that's why I've stated that we're overachieving right now. I picked us to lose yesterday, and we found a way to win despite our circumstances and losing AJ once again. I still don't like our chances in the post season, but whatever we get I'll be pretty happy with the season over all. We just keep having to deal with blow after blow injury wise. Right after Yates starts getting a little confidence, he loses AJ AGAIN!! This is season is just unreal as far as injuries go.

It is unreal to see these injuries to our best players but still win games.

It's great to see them working and believing as a team. They refuse to lose, and now on 6-in-a-row, I think momentum carries and they wrap up the franchise's first division title in the next couple of weeks. Then it's just playing for position it the playoffs.

I'm not counting them out of the playoffs, at least for the first game at Reliant. With that defense and homefield advantage with the crowd, I think they are capable of beating just about any team.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 11:25 AM
I think Harbaugh should get it for a one year turnaround. Kubiak has been building this team for 6 years, and if we are honest about it, he's lucky that our owner has the loyalty of a dog and the patience of a cat....that, and he listens to the advice of one Oail Andrew "Bum" Phillips about his genius son.

I do think Kubiak has done a good job this year, though, and it appears that learning on the job has paid off. His skill at taking care of the QB position has been invaluable, and he certainly deserves a lot of credit for it.

In all honesty, there isn't much difference between the turnaround going on in San Francisco & the turnaround going on here. The biggest difference is that Harbough wasn't their for the first 6 years.

Just like us, they've been adding talent & trying to change the losing culture. While it looks good in San Francisco, we don't know what they are going to look like next year.

We have no clue what these Texans are going to look like either, but I'm pretty sure the team is not going to quit on Gary Kubiak. They've had some highs & lows, missed players had some bad apples..... & they're still playing their hearts out.

I don't know what's going to happen in San Francisco when they experience a two game losing streak, or a Frank Gore misses three games... or a Patrick Willis for that matter.

Winning is great & it's the end-all-be-all of the NFL, but there's a million things that goes into winning one game & the HC's job is to make it all work.

& While I thought Kubiak had over-stayed his welcome... while I thought he should have been let go before this season started, I actually hope more teams will tough it out with "good" coaches in the future.

Texecutioner
12-05-2011, 11:36 AM
It is unreal to see these injuries to our best players but still win games.

It's great to see them working and believing as a team. They refuse to lose, and now on 6-in-a-row, I think momentum carries and they wrap up the franchise's first division title in the next couple of weeks. Then it's just playing for position it the playoffs.

I'm not counting them out of the playoffs, at least for the first game at Reliant. With that defense and homefield advantage with the crowd, I think they are capable of beating just about any team.

Yeah, they're playing with a strong chip on their shoulder finally, and it's fun to watch. I love this constant pressure from these young guys, and it's what I've wanted to see out of Mario for years as a pass rusher. These young guys are motors that just don't stop. If we get in a close game, no doubt we can pull out a win against possibly anyone. Either way, I'll just be along for the ride and won't expect much as far as the playoffs go. I'll just take each game as they come and enjoy the first real football team this franchise has put together that we've all been waiting for going on ten years now.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 11:39 AM
I still obviously want us to win the division. But if somehow the Texans have an extended brain fart and the Titans find a crazy way to win the rest of their games and edge us out for the title...I won't be mad. I won't. I won't be on here cursing Kubiak or McNair. Everyone has done their jobs this season, and they've answered the bell every round.



Injuries & all that... I can't give into the "this is already a success" I might give him a pass if we don't finish winning the division, but it's not going to change my mind about Gary's ability to get us to the Championship game.

If we get two more wins.... 11 wins with what we've got here, then I'll start leaning that way. But we built ourselves a pretty good lead with the majority of the team intact. Losing the QB & the second string QB is the only reason I've lowered the bar (from AFC Champs).

I'm not pulling 11 wins out of my butt or anything, that's what we need to win this division if Tennessee takes care of business & if you go back you'll see I've been saying Tennessee is capable of winning 10 games just as easily as we are (they had practically the same schedule).

If it comes down to Jan 1, Tenn@Hou & we lose that game, I personally would prefer another head coach in 2012.

Is that too harsh? Unrealistic?

I don't think so. Indy & Jacksonville laid down & Tennessee without Chris Johnson (even though he was there) is similar to us with our various injury issues.

But Tennessee won't win 10 games? If they beat NO, they'll be on track to win 11. Jan 1 will become a must win for us if we don't win two before then. Heck, that means we have got to win at least 1 game before Jan 1.

We're on a role now & I can't imagine not winning two more games.

But this is far from over.

ObsiWan
12-05-2011, 12:11 PM
wow...weren't you just bustin' my balls a couple of days ago for trying to remain optimistic in spite of "objective analysis"? :fingergun: just yanking your chain, man.

I think Harbaugh should get it for a one year turnaround. Kubiak has been building this team for 6 years, and if we are honest about it, he's lucky that our owner has the loyalty of a dog and the patience of a cat....that, and he listens to the advice of one Oail Andrew "Bum" Phillips about his genius son.

I do think Kubiak has done a good job this year, though, and it appears that learning on the job has paid off. His skill at taking care of the QB position has been invaluable, and he certainly deserves a lot of credit for it.

Did you check the respective records?
Last year the niners were 6-10.
The year before they were 8-8.
Same as us.

The current Niner team has been in the works since 2005 when they drafted Frank Gore and Alex Smith. The next year, 2006, they added Vernon Davis; their pro bowl TE. The next year, 2007, they got Patrick Willis and Joe Staley - one pro bowler and one solid starter.

I could go on. But the point is, the current Niner team was in the works starting in 2005 a year before Kubiak got here.

The only difference is that all the talking heads (and most likely us fans too) wrote off the Niners because they had been mediocre for the past who-knows-how-long plus everyone believed Alex Smith was a bust.

With Manning out, everyone kind of expected us to take over the division because we were the lesser of the other three evils. Rookie QB in Jagsland. Old and thought to be washed up QB in Tennessee.

Harbaugh has done a good job but he had some good tools in place to work with. He appears to have worked a miracle until you take a closer look and see he inherited a pretty decent team. Singletary instilled pride. All Harbaugh had to do was turn Alex Smith into a game manager and let Frank Gore and Vernon Davis make enough plays to carry the offensive load.

Let me put it this way; Harbaugh was in charge of the 2011 draft right? Are any of the guys that HE PICKED making a significant impact? I can't think of one.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 01:50 PM
Let me put it this way; Harbaugh was in charge of the 2011 draft right? Are any of the guys that HE PICKED making a significant impact? I can't think of one.

So he took existing players, and just by his own force of will, made them play at a level that far exceeded anyone's expectations and their own history?

Sounds like a coach of the year candidate to me! :thinking:

BTW, I'm not down on Kubiak. But let's be honest: he's only coaching half the team now. :winky:

Dutchrudder
12-05-2011, 01:56 PM
eh..... IMO, the 49ers are a 12-4 team like the 2010 Bucs were a 10-6 team. The only impressive win they have so far....... the Giants. We'll see how far they fall next year.

By the same token, injuries or not, I'm taking the 9-3 Texans with a grain of salt. Kubiak doesn't need to be considered for coach of the year until we win a couple of play-off games (one of them will probably be against Tebow).

But this is a regular season award.... & they both should be in the conversation.

They have wins @Cincy, @Detroit, NYG for quality wins. Losses @Balt and vs Dallas. Still a good resume overall. Texans quality wins are vs Steelers, @ Tenn, vs Atlanta. Rather comparable in general, but the big difference is that Harbaugh is doing it as a rookie coach and Kubiak has taken 6 years go get there. It's the same reason I wouldn't even nominate Marvin Lewis for the award because he's been in Cincy so long it's pointless to say 'good job on finally having a winning season'.

If the Packers go 16-0 though, I think you have to give it to McCarthy. That's just amazing for any team to do, and it takes tremendous coaching and talent on the field to be perfect for that many games.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 03:04 PM
If the Packers go 16-0 though, I think you have to give it to McCarthy. That's just amazing for any team to do, and it takes tremendous coaching and talent on the field to be perfect for that many games.

That's a great point, especially considering they've got that target on their back as SB champions this season.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 03:24 PM
They have wins @Cincy, @Detroit, NYG for quality wins. Losses @Balt and vs Dallas. Still a good resume overall. Texans quality wins are vs Steelers, @ Tenn, vs Atlanta. Rather comparable in general, but the big difference is that Harbaugh is doing it as a rookie coach and Kubiak has taken 6 years go get there. It's the same reason I wouldn't even nominate Marvin Lewis for the award because he's been in Cincy so long it's pointless to say 'good job on finally having a winning season'.

If the Packers go 16-0 though, I think you have to give it to McCarthy. That's just amazing for any team to do, and it takes tremendous coaching and talent on the field to be perfect for that many games.

Well, I think a lot of people ignore that it did not take Kubiak 6 years to get a winning season. It took him 4 years to get a winning season after taking over a broken expansion team. Two years after that, & we are here.

If you're telling me Jim Harbaugh could've taken over the 2006 Texans & had them at 10-1 that year, I'm calling BS. & that's the point I (& I believe ObsiWan) am trying to make.

I think.

Mr teX
12-05-2011, 03:48 PM
I'd have to give it to Jim Harbaugh simply b/c he's a rookie HC and he's turned that team COMPLETELY around in just 1 year...........with a shortened offseason to boot.........and he's done it all with Alex Smith at qb.

Let's put that into perspective for a sec. That's like Kubiak coming in 6 years ago & being able to take us to a 10-2 record with David freakin Carr...That's a monumental feat.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 03:55 PM
Well, I think a lot of people ignore that it did not take Kubiak 6 years to get a winning season. It took him 4 years to get a winning season after taking over a broken expansion team. Two years after that, & we are here.

If you're telling me Jim Harbaugh could've taken over the 2006 Texans & had them at 10-1 that year, I'm calling BS. & that's the point I (& I believe ObsiWan) am trying to make.

I think.

I don't think Harbaugh would have turned around the Texans in a year. I think they were in such bad shape that no coach was going to perform that miracle. You don't go from 2-14 and that losing atmosphere to a winning franchise overnight.

But, I do think Harbaugh would have had this team in the playoffs by year 3.

I think it's somewhat comparable to what Jim Schwartz has been able to do with an 0-16 franchise. His first year was a struggle to get two wins, and now they are established to be potential contenders two years later.

Rey
12-05-2011, 03:58 PM
Well, I think a lot of people ignore that it did not take Kubiak 6 years to get a winning season. It took him 4 years to get a winning season after taking over a broken expansion team. Two years after that, & we are here.

If you're telling me Jim Harbaugh could've taken over the 2006 Texans & had them at 10-1 that year, I'm calling BS. & that's the point I (& I believe ObsiWan) am trying to make.

I think.

I agree with this.

I've been a kub fan up until last year. I just felt like enough was enough. I didn't have any real reason that I wanted him gone other than the fact that he wasn't winning.

But overall I think kubiak has provided great value to this franchise.

bckey
12-05-2011, 04:20 PM
wow...weren't you just bustin' my balls a couple of days ago for trying to remain optimistic in spite of "objective analysis"? :fingergun: just yanking your chain, man.

I think Harbaugh should get it for a one year turnaround. Kubiak has been building this team for 6 years, and if we are honest about it, he's lucky that our owner has the loyalty of a dog and the patience of a cat....that, and he listens to the advice of one Oail Andrew "Bum" Phillips about his genius son.

I do think Kubiak has done a good job this year, though, and it appears that learning on the job has paid off. His skill at taking care of the QB position has been invaluable, and he certainly deserves a lot of credit for it.

Great post and it pretty much sums up what I think about the whole situation.

Rey
12-05-2011, 04:20 PM
If we have everyone healthy, who are you taking, texans or niners in a head to head?

Homerism aside. (well as best you can)

I know that coty doesn't go to the best team, but my point is that I don't think the niners record accurately reflects how good that team is whereas the packers undefeated record about sums it up IMO.

Niners division is trash.

Kubiak took over a terrible team in a division that was on fire. At the time probably the best division in football. Then he had to compete against maybe the best qb of all time.

Who is the niners toughest competition in their division? Probably themselves in practice.

I think if kubiak could have come into a division like that he would have made the play offs long ago.

Anyone remember pre season when most of the team was relatively healthy? We were still figuring our defense out and we embarrassed them. I know it was pre season, but we simply outclassed them.

When I think about coty I think about which coach has done the most outstanding job considering all circumstances. Yes harbaugh is up there. But IMO kubiak and McCarthy have a slight edge considering one coach has his team undefeated and the other coach has kept his team winning despite multiple injuries to key players.

ObsiWan
12-05-2011, 05:04 PM
So he took existing players, and just by his own force of will, made them play at a level that far exceeded anyone's expectations and their own history?

Sounds like a coach of the year candidate to me! :thinking:

BTW, I'm not down on Kubiak. But let's be honest: he's only coaching half the team now. :winky:

First, "their own history" isn't that different from ours. I thought I pointed that out before. Last year both teams were 6-10. The year before I think we were 9-7 and they were 8-8 (yes, I fixed that). In 2008 they were 7-9 and we were 8-8. This year they are 10-2 with no significant injuries and we're 9-3 with, as you pointed out, half the team gone. It's not like the Niners went from 0-16 to 10-2. They made the same progress from last year to this, that we did, with a weaker schedule.

Secondly, when you look closer, the "expectations" should have been for the Niners to win that division running away. They have the best talent overall. At the skilled positions they have Gore, V.Davis, Crabtree, Tedd Ginn, Jr. and Braylon Edwards (okay he might be a minus). And did I mention that their O-line has three 1st rd picks in Staley, Iupati, and Anthony Davis and a high 2nd round in Chilo Rachal (#39 overall).

My point is that Harbaugh inherited plenty of talent. If expectations for the Niners were low, it's because the talking heads didn't do their homework.

I'm thinking that, like Houston, SF was the most talented team in a shakey division. Just like Kubiak was expected to capture with a Manning-less AFC South, Harbaugh should have been expected to win a weak NFC West.

Harbaugh's doing what he should be doing and that just doesn't scream "Advantage Harbaugh" to me.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 05:49 PM
The 49ers have not had a winning record since 2002, the first year that the Texans were in the league.

They had a losing culture that no amount of talent was going to overcome. They needed leadership, someone to instill something deeper into the collective mindset.

Many folks have argued about regime change here Houston. Many of the anti-change crowd indicated that a new head coach would not automatically make a difference, that it takes time to accrue talent and a staff, implement schemes, and fill the bench.

Heck, even Bob McNair himself stated that changing head coaches is "traumatic" as a way to support his decision to keep Kubiak.

Harbaugh just proved all of that wrong, and did it without the benefit of an off-season.

I am not arguing that Kubiak should not be considered. But if you are honest about your analysis, Harbaugh did this season what Kubiak was supposed to do (and predicted to do) in 2008, 2009, 2010.

NOBODY expected the 49ers to be 10-2 and clinch a playoff spot in week 12 (a full decade since their last appearance).

Harbaugh 1 year > Kubiak 6 years. This is how voters will see it.

p.s. I'm not even a fan of Jim Harbaugh, and Kubiak is my coach. I'd really like to see McCarthy get it for 16-0 and then lose to the Texans in the Super Bowl. :D

Rey
12-05-2011, 06:03 PM
The 49ers have not had a winning record since 2002, the first year that the Texans were in the league.

They had a losing culture that no amount of talent was going to overcome. They needed leadership, someone to instill something deeper into the collective mindset.

Many folks have argued about regime change here Houston. Many of the anti-change crowd indicated that a new head coach would not automatically make a difference, that it takes time to accrue talent and a staff, implement schemes, and fill the bench.

Heck, even Bob McNair himself stated that changing head coaches is "traumatic" as a way to support his decision to keep Kubiak.

Harbaugh just proved all of that wrong, and did it without the benefit of an off-season.

I am not arguing that Kubiak should not be considered. But if you are honest about your analysis, Harbaugh did this season what Kubiak was supposed to do (and predicted to do) in 2008, 2009, 2010.

NOBODY expected the 49ers to be 10-2 and clinch a playoff spot in week 12 (a full decade since their last appearance).

Harbaugh 1 year > Kubiak 6 years. This is how voters will see it.

p.s. I'm not even a fan of Jim Harbaugh, and Kubiak is my coach. I'd really like to see McCarthy get it for 16-0 and then lose to the Texans in the Super Bowl. :D

I think voters will also see the texans winning without a lot of their key players.

And I get that harbaugh had the one year turn around where it has taken kubiak a while, but harbaugh is in the worst division in football.

I thought that they should have done this with singletary but he just wasn't a good head coach.

I remember the talk going into last season was that the niners were ready to take the next step. They didn't. Considering how awful the division was last year I don't see why the niners winning it is a shock.

10-2 is eye opening though. Harbaugh deserves credit for that. Hes been outstanding. He overcame a losing culture just like we did.

But I don't think he's done a better job than kubiak or McCarthy this year.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 06:08 PM
Y'all make some great points. I think the key pro-Kubiak is the injuries and how the team has really rallied around the team concept.

And the point about how weak the NFC West is not lost on me. After all, this is the division that produced the NFL's only 7-9 division winner (although, to their credit, they did beat the defending champion Saints in a playoff game, fwiw).

Although, the con-Kubiak is that it took Wade to coach half the team to finally take this team over the hump. ;)

Dutchrudder
12-05-2011, 06:09 PM
First, "their own history" isn't that different from ours. I thought I pointed that out before. Last year both teams were 6-10. The year before I think we were 9-7 and they were 8-8 (yes, I fixed that). In 2008 they were 7-9 and we were 8-8. This year they are 10-2 with no significant injuries and we're 9-3 with, as you pointed out, half the team gone. It's not like the Niners went from 0-16 to 10-2. They made the same progress from last year to this, that we did, with a weaker schedule.

Secondly, when you look closer, the "expectations" should have been for the Niners to win that division running away. They have the best talent overall. At the skilled positions they have Gore, V.Davis, Crabtree, Tedd Ginn, Jr. and Braylon Edwards (okay he might be a minus). And did I mention that their O-line has three 1st rd picks in Staley, Iupati, and Anthony Davis and a high 2nd round in Chilo Rachal (#39 overall).

My point is that Harbaugh inherited plenty of talent. If expectations for the Niners were low, it's because the talking heads didn't do their homework.

I'm thinking that, like Houston, SF was the most talented team in a shakey division. Just like Kubiak was expected to capture with a Manning-less AFC South, Harbaugh should have been expected to win a weak NFC West.

Harbaugh's doing what he should be doing and that just doesn't scream "Advantage Harbaugh" to me.

I have absolutely no issue with your arguments or Tkyss's in regard to the team and where it is. My issue is that the difference maker in San Fransisco I believe is Harbaugh, but in Houston it's Wade Phillips. Kubiak is just the benefactor of a revamped defense. The offense has performed well each year under Kubiak but it took 6 years to get a top 10 defense. That's why I put Harbaugh above Kubes, and I think their resumes regarding the overall team are relatively similar.

I don't know if there is a Coordinator of the Year award, but if there is Wade Phillips ought to win that unanimously.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 06:13 PM
Harbaugh 1 year > Kubiak 6 years. This is how voters will see it.

First let's say that I agree with you that the voters will see it that way.

The 49ers have not had a winning record since 2002, the first year that the Texans were in the league.

They had a losing culture that no amount of talent was going to overcome. They needed leadership, someone to instill something deeper into the collective mindset.

I agree with this, but they also needed talent. Had someone (Casserly) been in Houston acquiring talent the way San Fran has in the last 5/6 years, then it would have been the same.

Many folks have argued about regime change here Houston. Many of the anti-change crowd indicated that a new head coach would not automatically make a difference, that it takes time to accrue talent and a staff, implement schemes, and fill the bench.

Heck, even Bob McNair himself stated that changing head coaches is "traumatic" as a way to support his decision to keep Kubiak.

Harbaugh just proved all of that wrong, and did it without the benefit of an off-season.

I think (iirc) the same was said about Josh McDaniels.... for a little while.

I am not arguing that Kubiak should not be considered. But if you are honest about your analysis, Harbaugh did this season what Kubiak was supposed to do (and predicted to do) in 2008, 2009, 2010.

I don't think Kubiak should be considered. Bob should call all the voters & pay them to take Kubiak off the ballot.

2008? 2009 I believe, but 2008 we were supposed to win the division? A wild card maybe, but the division in 2008? I'm not buying it.


NOBODY expected the 49ers to be 10-2 and clinch a playoff spot in week 12 (a full decade since their last appearance).


I think this is what he's saying. The 49ers are the most talented team in that division.... I don't know if that was all that obvious before the season started, but that's his argument.

The Cardinals..... I thought Kolb was going to do something special (homerism.... maybe). St Louis, yeah, I'm shocked they are as bad as they are. Really. Seattle, I thought they would be at the bottom of the pile.

But I had no idea the AFC South was going to be this bad either.... so

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 06:15 PM
I thought that they should have done this with singletary but he just wasn't a good head coach.


If Singletary didn't go at it with Vernon Davis, & straighten up that locker room, I doubt Harbaugh would be 10-2 right now.

Rey
12-05-2011, 06:19 PM
I have absolutely no issue with your arguments or Tkyss's in regard to the team and where it is. My issue is that the difference maker in San Fransisco I believe is Harbaugh, but in Houston it's Wade Phillips. Kubiak is just the benefactor of a revamped defense. The offense has performed well each year under Kubiak but it took 6 years to get a top 10 defense. That's why I put Harbaugh above Kubes, and I think their resumes regarding the overall team are relatively similar.

I don't know if there is a Coordinator of the Year award, but if there is Wade Phillips ought to win that unanimously.

For years we have blamed kubiak for bad defense, but when the d gets good he gets little or no credit?

I get that wade was probably a bob McNair hire. I get that wade is in complete control over there. But at the end of the day (just like when the d sucked) kub is the hmic.

Texans_Chick
12-05-2011, 06:22 PM
This is Wade's team. It is Wade's season. He did this.

However, I have been impressed with how Kubiak has handled the QB disaster. He doesn't appear to be panicking, and seems to be methodically, and calmly, pushing ahead, doing what he has to do to win. Kubiak seems confident.

But, guess why he's confident? Because we have a solid defense. Guess who is in charge of that?

Get it?

???

A lot of teams can't function with their backup QB much less their third string QB. Hell, a lot of teams can't function well with their starting QB.

Kubiak has had a decent offense for a while. They just didn't have a defensive coordinator who knew what they were doing.

It's a whole team thing. If they didn't have a functional running game, just having a defense would be like being the Jaguars.

Double Barrel
12-05-2011, 06:22 PM
2008? 2009 I believe, but 2008 we were supposed to win the division? A wild card maybe, but the division in 2008? I'm not buying it.

Yeah, wildcard. Strictly talking playoff berth. Our division has always been the Colts to own until this season.

So I can't hold that against Kubiak. Perhaps even one of the reasons for McNair's epic loyalty?...

I think this is what he's saying. The 49ers are the most talented team in that division.... I don't know if that was all that obvious before the season started, but that's his argument.

The Cardinals..... I thought Kolb was going to do something special (homerism.... maybe). St Louis, yeah, I'm shocked they are as bad as they are. Really. Seattle, I thought they would be at the bottom of the pile.

But I had no idea the AFC South was going to be this bad either.... so

It's a solid argument, so this is merely a fun debate because I think all of the sides have good merit.

I thought the Cards were going to take the division, as well.

The AFC South is not quite as bad as portrayed, though, since we still have the Titans biting at our heels. I think the NFC West could continue to wallow in mediocrity, but I do expect much stiffer competition in our division next season.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 06:25 PM
I have absolutely no issue with your arguments or Tkyss's in regard to the team and where it is. My issue is that the difference maker in San Fransisco I believe is Harbaugh, but in Houston it's Wade Phillips. Kubiak is just the benefactor of a revamped defense. The offense has performed well each year under Kubiak but it took 6 years to get a top 10 defense. That's why I put Harbaugh above Kubes, and I think their resumes regarding the overall team are relatively similar.

I don't know if there is a Coordinator of the Year award, but if there is Wade Phillips ought to win that unanimously.

The biggest reason for our failures last season was that Frank Bush totally screwed up the "how to handle adversity" part of the job.

"We're missing Brian Cushing & starting a rookie Corner, so lets play on our heals & hope no one gets a big play on us." So you're asking Quin, Pollard, Demeco, Wilson to read & react & cover for the rookie.

When those downhill players should have been flying down hill getting after the passer, playing on the other side of the LOS, letting Wilson roam using his instincts & letting Kareem sink or swim or blow the F up.

We never got to play that style of football, because we were always losing a key player at one time or another, I think Demeco, Mario, & Cushing only played 1 full game together.

This year, with the FA signings (including Allen from last year) & the addition of Watt & Reed & the aggressive attitude Wade has (he don't look it) we've got players doing what they are supposed to do. The weak spot is still the weak spot, We don't have 9 weak spots trying to compensate for 1. We have 10 guys getting after it & 1 guy trying to keep up.

Frank Bush is a dumbass (can't say idioot)...... But there is little difference between what we are doing now & what we did in 2009 (we're doing it better, but basically the same thing Mario on one side, Cushing on the other, Antonio next to Cushing, Cody on the nose, and Okoye (Watt)).

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 06:28 PM
Yeah, wildcard. Strictly talking playoff berth. Our division has always been the Colts to own until this season.

So I can't hold that against Kubiak. Perhaps even one of the reasons for McNair's epic loyalty?...



It's a solid argument, so this is merely a fun debate because I think all of the sides have good merit.

I thought the Cards were going to take the division, as well.

The AFC South is not quite as bad as portrayed, though, since we still have the Titans biting at our heels. I think the NFC West could continue to wallow in mediocrity, but I do expect much stiffer competition in our division next season.

Not without much better QB play ..... Manning may be the best ever but I think he's gonna fall off considerably due to injury ..... Gabbert ? He'll never be a starting calibur NFL QB ..... the Tits gonna bring back Hasselbeck ? Can he put up another decent year for them ?

The AFC South belongs to the Houston Texans until further notice.



As for the topic of the thread ..... Yeah , you gotta put Gary in the conversation along with Harbough and McCarthy. If its not one of those three .... someone stole it.

ObsiWan
12-05-2011, 06:34 PM
:bluesbro:The 49ers have not had a winning record since 2002, the first year that the Texans were in the league.

They had a losing culture that no amount of talent was going to overcome. They needed leadership, someone to instill something deeper into the collective mindset.
Singletary did that when he took the 2007 team that went 5-11 and elevated them to 7-9 and that was after a 2-5 start under Mike Nolan (meaning Singletary went 5-4). The next year, 2008, they went 8-8 so the "culture" was beginning to change before Harbaugh got there.

Many folks have argued about regime change here Houston. Many of the anti-change crowd indicated that a new head coach would not automatically make a difference, that it takes time to accrue talent and a staff, implement schemes, and fill the bench.

Heck, even Bob McNair himself stated that changing head coaches is "traumatic" as a way to support his decision to keep Kubiak.

Harbaugh just proved all of that wrong, and did it without the benefit of an off-season.

And each year for every Harbaugh-like miracle worker there are a couple of Pat Shurmurs or Ron Riveras that don't do squat. Sorry, not buying into that hype.


I guess I'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.
...plus I'm a :homer: so I'm arguing against anything that doesn't support my Texans.
:D

I am not arguing that Kubiak should not be considered. But if you are honest about your analysis, Harbaugh did this season what Kubiak was supposed to do (and predicted to do) in 2008, 2009, 2010.

NOBODY expected the 49ers to be 10-2 and clinch a playoff spot in week 12 (a full decade since their last appearance).

Harbaugh 1 year > Kubiak 6 years. This is how voters will see it.

p.s. I'm not even a fan of Jim Harbaugh, and Kubiak is my coach. I'd really like to see McCarthy get it for 16-0 and then lose to the Texans in the Super Bowl. :D

I cannot dispute that point because the voters hate us anyway :tinfoil:

DocBar
12-05-2011, 06:45 PM
I didn't bother reading all four pages, so this might be a repeat.

Kubiak does NOT deserve Coach of the Year even if we win the Super Bowl. Every coach, every year, has to deal with injuries. Why should Kubes get COY for the team achieving what it should've achived for a couple of years? This team has had talent for a few years and they always folded. The big difference this year is Phillips as DC. This year is the only year where Kubiak can legitimately claim injuries as the reason for failure, yet we're succeeding. Obviously, the talent has mostly been there and coaching has been lacking.

I state all this having been a Kubes supporter. I like the continuity of keeping a head coach. All in all, I think this season has opened McNair's eyes, as far as loyalty goes. Loyalty to Kubes seems to be panning out by discounting Kube's loyalty to certain DC's. As far as any of us know, McNair and/or Smith forced Kubes to take Phillips. Kubes is golden this year, thanks to injuries. Next season, if there's a collapse like '07-'10(rookie season gets a bye with me), Kubes is gone and we begin another futile Wade Phillips HC campaign.

I really think Kubes and Phillips are consumate coordinators in the NFL. I KNOW Phillips is a bad HC and I'm fairly certain Kubes is average at best. John Harbaugh gets my nod.

DocBar
12-05-2011, 06:56 PM
???

A lot of teams can't function with their backup QB much less their third string QB. Hell, a lot of teams can't function well with their starting QB.

Kubiak has had a decent offense for a while. They just didn't have a defensive coordinator who knew what they were doing.

It's a whole team thing. If they didn't have a functional running game, just having a defense would be like being the Jaguars.That sounds suspiciously like an OC's job, not a HC's job. Kubes has had several offenses that could run up and down the field. This is the only defense he's ever had that could stop the other team, consistently, from doing the same. Phillips' swagger and game plans are the things that are making this season magical. It's really kinda Patriot-esque 2001 in that. Great defense and the other two phases not losing the game, in the early part of the season, with the offense coming on later. This could very well be the Texans this year. We have a great defense that will allow Rowdy Yates to grow as a starting QB without thinking that every mistake will end in a loss or a yank. This is what championship teams are made of. Rowdy has four more games to round out into playoff form. He showed poise, ability and more than a little flair and mobility. I'm still thinking Super Bowl, but not COY for Kubes. We should've been here the last two years and it's his fault, as head coach, that we weren't.

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 06:59 PM
We should've been here the last two years and it's his fault, as head coach, that we weren't.

This isnt a career achievement award but an award for this season ....


Im not ready to hand him anything but he has to be in the conversation .....

DocBar
12-05-2011, 07:16 PM
This isnt a career achievement award but an award for this season ....


Im not ready to hand him anything but he has to be in the conversation ..... The Texans have underachieved for a few years. Why reward a guy for doing what he should be doing? This year is all about Phillips. Without him, we're Jax at this stage. Kubes has had the talent to make the playoffs in years past, so I'm not willing to even consider him this year just because of injuries. Injuries happe to every team. You deal with them and hope you made good personell decisions, as far as depth.

Basically, the better this season gets, the more bitter I get about previous years, when a Phillips type DC would've put us in contention of some sort.

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 07:24 PM
The Texans have underachieved for a few years. Why reward a guy for doing what he should be doing? This year is all about Phillips. Without him, we're Jax at this stage. Kubes has had the talent to make the playoffs in years past, so I'm not willing to even consider him this year just because of injuries. Injuries happe to every team. You deal with them and hope you made good personell decisions, as far as depth.

Basically, the better this season gets, the more bitter I get about previous years, when a Phillips type DC would've put us in contention of some sort.

D.Manning , J-Jo , Barwin , Reed , Watt all new additions to this years defense ..... Hard to argue that the talent was there to begin with when all those players were added one way or another over what was available last season.

They added a solid player on every level of the defense.

DocBar
12-05-2011, 07:45 PM
D.Manning , J-Jo , Barwin , Reed , Watt all new additions to this years defense ..... Hard to argue that the talent was there to begin with when all those players were added one way or another over what was available last season.

They added a solid player on every level of the defense. You just mentioned all defensive players. Everything to do with the defense has been Phillips. Are you going to suggest that we've won more due to offense than defense? What is Kubes' specialty?Umm....NOT defense. The Patriots have the same defensive rank we had last year. What is their record? Oh yeah...1st seed in the AFC. With the 30th-ish ranked defense. If Kubes is such a great HC, shouldn't we have made the playoffs in the last 3 years with a top 5 offense? All of the evidence shows that Kubes is a good/great OC and a mediocre HC, just like his record shows. Belichick would've had us deep in the playoffs 3 out of 5 years from '06-'10. Kubes got us 9-7 ONCE. Other coaches with, surprisingly worse franchises, further this year than Kubiak has taken his team. Harbaugh is the most glaringly obvious.

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 02:25 AM
Well, I think a lot of people ignore that it did not take Kubiak 6 years to get a winning season. It took him 4 years to get a winning season after taking over a broken expansion team. Two years after that, & we are here.

If you're telling me Jim Harbaugh could've taken over the 2006 Texans & had them at 10-1 that year, I'm calling BS. & that's the point I (& I believe ObsiWan) am trying to make.

I think.

You are correct, sir.

It's the difference between flipping a house that just needs a some paint and new carpet to make it sellable to one that has been burned down to the foundation and you have to rebuild it from the slab up to make it sellable.

Which do you think is the greater accomplishment? Which one required more work?

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 02:38 AM
I have absolutely no issue with your arguments or Tkyss's in regard to the team and where it is. My issue is that the difference maker in San Fransisco I believe is Harbaugh, but in Houston it's Wade Phillips. Kubiak is just the benefactor of a revamped defense. The offense has performed well each year under Kubiak but it took 6 years to get a top 10 defense. That's why I put Harbaugh above Kubes, and I think their resumes regarding the overall team are relatively similar.

I don't know if there is a Coordinator of the Year award, but if there is Wade Phillips ought to win that unanimously.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. Even the dummies on TV have acknowledged that Wade was the off-season pickup of the year.

But without the offensive system that Kubiak built, this team is just another Jacksonville. And certainly not a contender.

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 03:07 AM
And for the record, if McCarthy finishes up 16-0, that's Coach of the Year worthy IMHO. And not simply because they haven't lost but it's who they've beaten along the way.

Saints - in prime time.
Bears - before they lost their QB
Giants - took their best shot and got the win
Falcons - meh, but they are still in the playoff hunt
Lions - the famous Suh STOMP! (think Hulk Smash!!) game on turkey day

And, in being undefeated AND the reigning champs, they're taking everyone's best shot.

So, if they survive to go 16-0, McCarthy would get my vote for CotY.
:twocents:

Rey
12-06-2011, 07:42 AM
You just mentioned all defensive players. Everything to do with the defense has been Phillips. Are you going to suggest that we've won more due to offense than defense? What is Kubes' specialty?Umm....NOT defense. The Patriots have the same defensive rank we had last year. What is their record? Oh yeah...1st seed in the AFC. With the 30th-ish ranked defense. If Kubes is such a great HC, shouldn't we have made the playoffs in the last 3 years with a top 5 offense? All of the evidence shows that Kubes is a good/great OC and a mediocre HC, just like his record shows. Belichick would've had us deep in the playoffs 3 out of 5 years from '06-'10. Kubes got us 9-7 ONCE. Other coaches with, surprisingly worse franchises, further this year than Kubiak has taken his team. Harbaugh is the most glaringly obvious.

Belichick may have had us in the play offs. Maybe not. Belichick has Brady. Normally great qb's have their teams in the hunt no matter what. Especially qb's that perform well in the clutch.

Belichick has the manning of his division. His defenses havent always been this bad either.

Kubiak came on a 2-14 team with pretty bad talent all the way around. The entire team pretty much needed to be re-built. Then on top of that our division was on fire at the time. Every team in the division was playing well...well besides us.

Belichick probably wins more games, but I think any coach coming into that situation would have had growing pains. Especially any first time head coach on any level.

Even Rex Ryan inherited a better team than kubiak did. I'd say Harbaugh came into a better situation as well. He'd been a head coach before (in college). He had talent on that team. Division sucked ass.

And I'm not saying those guys aren't good coaches or that kubiak deserves a pass for the product he has produced sans this year. What I'm saying is that maybe kubiak has been a little better than he's given credit for and maybe some other coaches have come into more favorable situations to turn around their teams.

Texecutioner
12-06-2011, 10:43 AM
Belichick may have had us in the play offs. Maybe not. Belichick has Brady. Normally great qb's have their teams in the hunt no matter what. Especially qb's that perform well in the clutch.

Belichick has the manning of his division. His defenses havent always been this bad either.

Kubiak came on a 2-14 team with pretty bad talent all the way around. The entire team pretty much needed to be re-built. Then on top of that our division was on fire at the time. Every team in the division was playing well...well besides us.

Belichick probably wins more games, but I think any coach coming into that situation would have had growing pains. Especially any first time head coach on any level.

Even Rex Ryan inherited a better team than kubiak did. I'd say Harbaugh came into a better situation as well. He'd been a head coach before (in college). He had talent on that team. Division sucked ass.

And I'm not saying those guys aren't good coaches or that kubiak deserves a pass for the product he has produced sans this year. What I'm saying is that maybe kubiak has been a little better than he's given credit for and maybe some other coaches have come into more favorable situations to turn around their teams.


Those are just a few situations, but there have been a ton of teams that got turned around that were just as bad or right around that. Whether a team was just as bad can be argued all day and night long, but they were all bad teams. The Saints were a terrible team when Payton took over. Same year as Kubiak and so were the Jets when Mangini took them over that same year. They both made the post season that year and that's when Pennington was healthy. Then when the Dolphins had a healthy Pennington they won their division after going 1-15. There have been plenty of others like the Falcons as well.

Kubiak didn't have a strong first 5 years here. He should have been canned and most of you guys that have defended him over and over have at least admitted that he should have been fired after year 4 and year 5. Going 6-10 in your 6th season was terrible. This year the Texans have over achieved though mainly due to Wade's defense, but they're still playing very well so talks about Kubiak should cease for the year at least. He'll be back next year either way, and hopefully he can have another big season and I think all of the talks about him being fired or not would cease to exist all together if he could put together two back to back seasons of great football in Houston.

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 10:57 AM
Basically, the better this season gets, the more bitter I get about previous years, when a Phillips type DC would've put us in contention of some sort.

I totally agree with this statement
BUT
Since Kubiak's been here there were no DC's of Phillips' caliber to be had.
Let's think about this. On that level of -dare I say - defensive genius - there are maybe 3-4 other than Buddha Wade.

Dick LeBeau
Greg Williams
Dom Capers (on his better days)
Rex Ryan (although I think he benefitted from HoF personnel in Balt.)

Those guys weren't going to be let go of the teams that had them under contract just to go take a lateral - i.e., simply move to a better paying DC job.

The ideal - yet highly improbable - situation would have been to let Capers stay to build/run the defense and bring Kubiak in to build a solid offense.

If only Jerruh had fired Wade in '09....
:thinking:

infantrycak
12-06-2011, 11:00 AM
The ideal - yet highly improbable - situation would have been to let Capers stay to build/run the defense and bring Kubiak in to build a solid offense.

That may have been ideal but (a) it never happens that way and (b) Capers wasn't looking like such a defensive guru at that point having failed to build a decent D in his time as HC.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 11:57 AM
Belichick probably wins more games, but I think any coach coming into that situation would have had growing pains. Especially any first time head coach on any level.


What made Kubiak's tenure here all the more difficult (I think) is that he was also the General Manager & VP of football operations. Way too much with Kubiak's resume coming in. Bellichick was much more prepared for that role when he got to New England (minus the VP of football operations) after his stint in Cleveland.


Kubiak didn't have a strong first 5 years here. He should have been canned and most of you guys that have defended him over and over have at least admitted that he should have been fired after year 4 and year 5. Going 6-10 in your 6th season was terrible.


2006 We finish 6-10
2007 We finish 8-8
2008 We finish 8-8
2009 We finish 9-7
2010 We finish 6-10
2011 we'll finish with 9 or more wins


I thought he did a fine job, taking a 2-14 failed expansion team to 6-10 his first season. I think we over achieved in 2007 to finish 8-8. I thought 2008's 8-8 was about right.. probably should have been 10-6, but I wasn't going to fire him for that.

2009, I thought we were on our way, 9-7 which should have got us a play-off berth.

2010, I couldn't make sense of what I had just seen. Either Kubiak or Rick Smith should have been gone. Gary Kubiak was the face of the Texans & if I had to chose, it would have been him.

But this is year 6.


This year the Texans have over achieved though mainly due to Wade's defense, but they're still playing very well so talks about Kubiak should cease for the year at least.


The thing I don't understand, is if you think the Texans are over achieving now, how can you possibly have expected the team to do better in years past?

The offense has always (relatively speaking) done what it takes to give us a chance to win. The defense is finally holding up it's end of the bargain. While "Wade's defense" is the biggest difference, they have rarely had to play from behind.

The offense is winning the T.O.P. battle every week & the offense is not turning the ball over. The defense is great, but this is a team thing. Take away the offense, & you're looking at Jacksonville west.

Double Barrel
12-06-2011, 12:13 PM
The AFC South belongs to the Houston Texans until further notice.


Let's not count the chickens before the eggs hatch.

While I am as optimistic as the next guy that the Texans will take the AFC South this season, it still has to actually happen before we can begin to claim that it's ours until further notice.

I KNOW Phillips is a bad HC and I'm fairly certain Kubes is average at best.

Wade is 82-59 as a head coach for his career, a far greater winning percentage than Gary (46-46). The biggest knock on Wade as a HC was not being able to win a playoff game, but he finally got that monkey off his back in Dallas.

You are correct, sir.

It's the difference between flipping a house that just needs a some paint and new carpet to make it sellable to one that has been burned down to the foundation and you have to rebuild it from the slab up to make it sellable.

Which do you think is the greater accomplishment? Which one required more work?

The thing with this award is that you have to vote in a vacuum. You cannot take into account the previous 5 seasons. You have to look at what the head coach has accomplished in the 2011 season, which started after the Super Bowl.

If you compare teams, the Texans had far greater talent than the 49ers, and with the stability on offense of a system that's been installed for five years, you have to take into account that Harbaugh got this team to 10 wins without the benefit of an off-season.

At this point, Kubiak has only achieved a 9 win season for sure. We should wait to see how the next four games play out, because if he loses the next four and misses the playoffs, then he's not even in the conversation for CotY.

That being said, a 13-3 record and top seed in the AFC would make me argue for Kubiak in every way possible.

Perki-Perk
12-06-2011, 12:25 PM
I have to give credit where it's due this year, and I've wanted Gary to make me say this for years. Finally there has been a regular season that he can hang his hat on. I do realize that it's been mainly due to Wade Phillips, but he is still the HC of this team and that is who the award goes to. I'd take Harbaugh first, but the Niners haven't dealt with anything close to what the Texans have injury wise and we're still on a winning streak. We're over achieving and I like it. :bravo:

I don't know...are we over achieving, or do we finally have the coaching to match our talent. I've always thought, with a few exceptions, we've had some very talented players. Everything just seem to have culminated this year inspite of all the injuries. I had some child-like excitement talking about this team Monday. For fans that have been on board since '02, this is super sweet right now!

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 12:26 PM
Dick LeBeau
Greg Williams
Dom Capers (on his better days)
Rex Ryan (although I think he benefitted from HoF personnel in Balt.)

Those guys weren't going to be let go of the teams that had them under contract just to go take a lateral - i.e., simply move to a better paying DC job.


Greg Williams was looking for a job & landed one in New Orleans. The owner & Gm weren't into his asking price & Peyton ponied up the money out of his own contract.

Then they won a Super Bowl.

Perki-Perk
12-06-2011, 12:27 PM
The thing with this award is that you have to vote in a vacuum. You cannot take into account the previous 5 seasons. You have to look at what the head coach has accomplished in the 2011 season, which started after the Super Bowl.

If you compare teams, the Texans had far greater talent than the 49ers, and with the stability on offense of a system that's been installed for five years, you have to take into account that Harbaugh got this team to 10 wins without the benefit of an off-season.

At this point, Kubiak has only achieved a 9 win season for sure. We should wait to see how the next four games play out, because if he loses the next four and misses the playoffs, then he's not even in the conversation for CotY.

That being said, a 13-3 record and top seed in the AFC would make me argue for Kubiak in every way possible.

OK, my problem here is you talk about the vacuum, and then apparently the power went out and the vacuum wasn't working anymore...lol. You can't talk about a system that's been in place for 5 years ;D

Perki-Perk
12-06-2011, 12:37 PM
First let's say that I agree with you that the voters will see it that way.

I agree with this, but they also needed talent. Had someone (Casserly) been in Houston acquiring talent the way San Fran has in the last 5/6 years, then it would have been the same.

I think (iirc) the same was said about Josh McDaniels.... for a little while.

I don't think Kubiak should be considered. Bob should call all the voters & pay them to take Kubiak off the ballot.

2008? 2009 I believe, but 2008 we were supposed to win the division? A wild card maybe, but the division in 2008? I'm not buying it.



I think this is what he's saying. The 49ers are the most talented team in that division.... I don't know if that was all that obvious before the season started, but that's his argument.

The Cardinals..... I thought Kolb was going to do something special (homerism.... maybe). St Louis, yeah, I'm shocked they are as bad as they are. Really. Seattle, I thought they would be at the bottom of the pile.

But I had no idea the AFC South was going to be this bad either.... so

And pretend for a second that we do end up going to the big show. Will it be like how everyone tries to downplay the Rockets chips becasue MJ only played the last half of the second one? I mean, there were still 27 other teams in the league at that time were there not? Will they be saying, had Peyton not been injured it would be different? Thing is, if Peyton was playing, while the Colts would be improved, I don't think they are beating us this year. I think they would have been somewhere around the Titans...with our defense now, I don't think any rabbits would have been pulled out of the hat...but maybe, you never know.

GP
12-06-2011, 12:58 PM
And for the record, if McCarthy finishes up 16-0, that's Coach of the Year worthy IMHO. And not simply because they haven't lost but it's who they've beaten along the way.

Saints - in prime time.
Bears - before they lost their QB
Giants - took their best shot and got the win
Falcons - meh, but they are still in the playoff hunt
Lions - the famous Suh STOMP! (think Hulk Smash!!) game on turkey day

And, in being undefeated AND the reigning champs, they're taking everyone's best shot.

So, if they survive to go 16-0, McCarthy would get my vote for CotY.
:twocents:

That's exactly why McCarthy is #2 on my list after Harbaugh at #1.

Nuff said.

Texecutioner
12-06-2011, 01:51 PM
You guys are making me want to vote for McCarthy now. :wadepalm:

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 02:06 PM
That may have been ideal but (a) it never happens that way and (b) Capers wasn't looking like such a defensive guru at that point having failed to build a decent D in his time as HC.

So you're saying any success the 2002-2005 Texans had was because of our offense??

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Anyway, my point in proposing that Kubiak/Capers matchup is that with a decent-to-good offense to match Capers' defense, we would have made much more progress. Seems to have worked in Green Bay.

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 02:12 PM
That's exactly why McCarthy is #2 on my list after Harbaugh at #1.

Nuff said.

You thief... I'm the one who named them Zombies...
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/gpshafer_1976/walking_dead.jpg
No matter how many parts they lose, they keep coming atcha...
:foottap:

ChampionTexan
12-06-2011, 02:13 PM
So you're saying any success the 2002-2005 Texans had was because of our offense??

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Anyway, my point in proposing that Kubiak/Capers matchup is that with a decent-to-good offense to match Capers' defense, we would have made much more progress. Seems to have worked in Green Bay.

I won't put words in CAK's mouth, but I will say that when the previous 3 years your defense finished ranked 23rd, 31st, and 24th, you don't invite the guy in charge of everything to stick around as DC.

Contrast that to the (still ridiculous) discussion of having Kubes stick around as OC if he'd been fired after the 2010 season. That's asking a guy who's last three offenses had finished 3rd, 4th and 3rd to stay.

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 02:20 PM
I won't put words in CAK's mouth, but I will say that when the previous 3 years your defense finished ranked 23rd, 31st, and 24th, you don't invite the guy in charge of everything to stick around as DC.

Contrast that to the (still ridiculous) discussion of having Kubes stick around as OC if he'd been fired after the 2010 season. That's asking a guy who's last three offenses had finished 3rd, 4th and 3rd to stay.

point taken...

...although the Colts won a Super Bowl with a 20-something ranked defense. So did the Saints. When Eli and the Giants beat the undefeated Pats their defense was ranked 17th.

OBTW, I'm talking points allowed, not yards. In my mind, keeping folks off the scoreboard is way more important than how many yards are allowed ...or rather not allowed.

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 02:25 PM
Edit: duplicate post

infantrycak
12-06-2011, 02:45 PM
So you're saying any success the 2002-2005 Texans had was because of our offense??

You'll have to explain that one to me.

I won't put words in CAK's mouth, but I will say that when the previous 3 years your defense finished ranked 23rd, 31st, and 24th, you don't invite the guy in charge of everything to stick around as DC.

Contrast that to the (still ridiculous) discussion of having Kubes stick around as OC if he'd been fired after the 2010 season. That's asking a guy who's last three offenses had finished 3rd, 4th and 3rd to stay.

Exactly. The Texans cracked the top half of the league (barely at 15) one time under Capers. Capers as a HC was as bass ackwards as could be. He ceded his area of expertise over to Fangio and then over controlled the offense resulting in both units sucking. I would have respected him a lot more if he had built a crushing D and told the O "OK go out and figure out a way to grind out 17 points and not turn the ball over."

Dread-Head
12-06-2011, 02:49 PM
:popcorn: Hey, I'm just impressed that someone used "Whether" correctly. I do love the Queen's English when it's properly used. I so rarely get to experience that phenomena in a public school.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 02:54 PM
So you're saying any success the 2002-2005 Texans had was because of our offense??

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Anyway, my point in proposing that Kubiak/Capers matchup is that with a decent-to-good offense to match Capers' defense, we would have made much more progress. Seems to have worked in Green Bay.

I understand what you're saying, but we never had a top 10 defense, at least not on paper.

I can't remember that far back.

The stats may be misleading, but it's easier for McNair to make that argument with the stats to back him up.

Like last year, I think the stats were very misleading. If we truly had a top 5 (10) offense, our defense would have never seen the field, ala Green Bay (31), New England (32), & New Orleans (27) this year. They weren't crying, "You can't expect the offense to score 30 points a game." They were screaming, "Try to keep up Beetchass!!"

.

80tothezone
12-06-2011, 02:59 PM
This is Wade's team. It is Wade's season. He did this.

However, I have been impressed with how Kubiak has handled the QB disaster. He doesn't appear to be panicking, and seems to be methodically, and calmly, pushing ahead, doing what he has to do to win. Kubiak seems confident.

But, guess why he's confident? Because we have a solid defense. Guess who is in charge of that?

Get it?

yeh but u can't just say when the team does bad it is all Kubes and when they do good it is all wade. I think that with all the injuries to key starters on O u have to give some credit to Kubes. wade does not coach the O and other than the past two weeks the O has done very well. Considering the circumstances I would say they have even done well the past two weeks. That is not to say that the D does not deserve it's credit but u got to give Kubes his too...

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 03:00 PM
Exactly. The Texans cracked the top half of the league (barely at 15) one time under Capers. Capers as a HC was as bass ackwards as could be. He ceded his area of expertise over to Fangio and then over controlled the offense resulting in both units sucking. I would have respected him a lot more if he had built a crushing D and told the O "OK go out and figure out a way to grind out 17 points and not turn the ball over."

Fangio currently has the 4th ranked defense in the NFL. 1st in points allowed. (FYI we're #2).

I don't think ceding control to Fangio was the problem.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 03:03 PM
yeh but u can't just say when the team does bad it is all Kubes and when they do good it is all wade. I think that with all the injuries to key starters on O u have to give some credit to Kubes. wade does not coach the O and other than the past two weeks the O has done very well. Considering the circumstances I would say they have even done well the past two weeks. That is not to say that the D does not deserve it's credit but u got to give Kubes his too...

The offense is made up of Andre Johnson & a bunch of other guys.

Foster: UDFA
Brisiel: UDFA
Schaub: 3rd round pick
Walter: ??
Brown: 1st round pick
Myers: got him for a 6th
Smith: Journeyman
OD: 3rd round

He's made spam look & taste like filet mignon.

welsh texan
12-06-2011, 03:39 PM
:popcorn: Hey, I'm just impressed that someone used "Whether" correctly. I do love the Queen's English when it's properly used. I so rarely get to experience that phenomenon in a public school. fify :wadepalm:

80tothezone
12-06-2011, 07:48 PM
The offense is made up of Andre Johnson & a bunch of other guys.

Foster: UDFA
Brisiel: UDFA
Schaub: 3rd round pick
Walter: ??
Brown: 1st round pick
Myers: got him for a 6th
Smith: Journeyman
OD: 3rd round

He's made spam look & taste like filet mignon.

yeh, although despite his draft ranking u can't say foster doesn't have talent he is one if the more talented backs in the league But yeh ur right he has done an amazing job with the O.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 08:08 PM
yeh, although despite his draft ranking u can't say foster doesn't have talent he is one if the more talented backs in the league But yeh ur right he has done an amazing job with the O.

& Chris Myers is one of the best centers, OD is one of the best TEs

what's your point?

ObsiWan
12-07-2011, 01:02 AM
The offense is made up of Andre Johnson & a bunch of other guys.

Foster: UDFA
Brisiel: UDFA
Schaub: 3rd round pick
Walter: 7th round pick (by the Giants - released after T/C then picked up by Cincy)
Brown: 1st round pick
Myers: got him for a 6th
Smith: Journeyman
OD: 4th round
Schaub: 3rd round (former backup. remember when ATL thought they'd robbed us for two picks)

He's made spam look & taste like filet mignon.

updated it for ya