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downtownsb
12-04-2011, 04:53 PM
I have had enough. That last play could havwe cost us a W. How many plays do we let this guy give up before we end this. Very frustrating to watch.

burro
12-04-2011, 04:55 PM
I suppose the good coverage he had throughout most of the game (especially on his INT) is all moot? All things considered, I trust Wade's judgement and I think it's pretty clear that KJ has improved a good deal since last season.

fiasco west
12-04-2011, 04:55 PM
Unbelievable.

Clearly KJ was the problem today, the one guy that tore us up through the air (Tony.G) was not KJ's responsibility but hey, lets put the potential loss on KJ.

TheMatrix31
12-04-2011, 04:56 PM
Really? The guy has been infinitely improved.

Jesus H.

Playoffs
12-04-2011, 04:56 PM
Inside of an hour. :ahhaha:

kingh99
12-04-2011, 04:57 PM
I have had enough. That last play could havwe cost us a W. How many plays do we let this guy give up before we end this. Very frustrating to watch.

Totally lucky he didn't cost the team. Again. Dude is the opposite of ball hawk. More like a dick swallow.

OzzO
12-04-2011, 04:57 PM
I suppose the good coverage he had throughout most of the game (especially on his INT) is all moot? All things considered, I trust Wade's judgement and I think it's pretty clear that KJ has improved a good deal since last season.

Seconded. Yeah - he's not all world pro cover, but he has gotten better - especially since last year. Heck, the entire D has improved. In WP we trust.

Rey
12-04-2011, 04:58 PM
I'm kind of iffy on him. He is much, much better since last year though.

EVOLVIST
12-04-2011, 04:58 PM
I don't think much of KJ, but slow that last play down - look at it again - KJ got his hand in there just in the nick of time.

KJ made the play.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 04:59 PM
I suppose the good coverage he had throughout most of the game (especially on his INT) is all moot? All things considered, I trust Wade's judgement and I think it's pretty clear that KJ has improved a good deal since last season.

u do realize he was beat on his INT right, thank god the ball was underthrown and the WR had to turn around and run back like 10 yards to try to stop it....haha

Naiirb
12-04-2011, 04:59 PM
Kareem completely blew it on the last play, Julio had both hands on the ball and dropped it.

TexanSam
12-04-2011, 05:00 PM
I don't think much of KJ, but slow that last play down - look at it again - KJ got his hand in there just in the nick of time.

KJ made the play.

Can anyone post it on youtube? Shoot, can anybody post the last 8 seconds?Would like to see the ending of the game

kiwitexansfan
12-04-2011, 05:00 PM
When we get enough cornerbacks who are better than him so he doesn't need to play.

ziggy29
12-04-2011, 05:00 PM
I don't think much of KJ, but slow that last play down - look at it again - KJ got his hand in there just in the nick of time.
A lot of folks couldn't because they didn't get to see the last two plays... :wadepalm:

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:00 PM
I don't think much of KJ, but slow that last play down - look at it again - KJ got his hand in there just in the nick of time.

KJ made the play.

i have and Julio dropped the ball. KJ had no effect on the play, you may want to watch it again, yeah he got his hand in there the ball was already going towards the ground though.

jtexas
12-04-2011, 05:01 PM
We end it when we get someone better. McCain had a really rough game too. I think we replace Jason Allen with another vet in the post season.

Wolf
12-04-2011, 05:02 PM
Totally lucky he didn't cost the team. Again. Dude is the opposite of ball hawk. More like a dick swallow.

oh my goodness. that is funny shit right there

Mr. White
12-04-2011, 05:03 PM
We won the game today and he got an INT.

Go find another scapegoat.

TexCanada
12-04-2011, 05:04 PM
The KJ "experiment" will end if/when there is a better player to play the position. Despite a few mistakes KJ has been playing pretty well, and with how much improvement he has been showing this year, it is going to take a pretty darn good player to come in and take his job.

buddyboy
12-04-2011, 05:05 PM
u do realize he was beat on his INT right, thank god the ball was underthrown and the WR had to turn around and run back like 10 yards to try to stop it....haha

We all know you hate KJ. But for argument's sake, have you gone back and looked at every one of Allen's INTs and decided if they were HIS doing or the QB making a bad play, or the defensive line had good pressure?

Tired of people downplaying these things. A sack is a sack, even if you didn't get blocked. A touchdown is a touchdown, even if it wasn't pretty. And an interception is an interception.

There are no asterisks. The ref does not give us the ball 20 yards downfeild

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:05 PM
We end it when we get someone better. McCain had a really rough game too. I think we replace Jason Allen with another vet in the post season.

:wadepalm: only tied for most picks on the team, only stopped a TD pass in the 4th by the falcons.

TexCanada
12-04-2011, 05:06 PM
Totally lucky he didn't cost the team. Again. Dude is the opposite of ball hawk. More like a dick swallow.

You think dick is the opposite of ball? I'm not sure what your situation is, but I've always considered the two a tandem.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:07 PM
We all know you hate KJ. But for argument's sake, have you gone back and looked at every one of Allen's INTs and decided if they were HIS doing or the QB making a bad play, or the defensive line had good pressure?

Tired of people downplaying these things. A sack is a sack, even if you didn't get blocked. A touchdown is a touchdown, even if it wasn't pretty. And an interception is an interception.

There are no asterisks. The ref does not give us the ball 20 yards downfeild

yeah 3 of allens were good and 1 was a give me, that equals 4 BTW. And Kareems (1) was a give me.

fiasco west
12-04-2011, 05:07 PM
We won the game today and he got an INT.

Go find another scapegoat.

The guy is a scapegoat even when we win.

fiasco west
12-04-2011, 05:08 PM
yeah 3 of allens were good and 1 was a give me, that equals 4 BTW. And Kareems (1) was a give me.

You are the guy who thinks the best defender in the NBA is the guy who gets the most steals I bet.

LikeMike
12-04-2011, 05:08 PM
Alright - take a look back at the season: how often was KJ abused? How many games did he cost us?

In our 6 game winning streak KJ has played great - every guy makes mistakes and every CB allows some catches. KJ hasn`t allowed a lot of them and hasn`t been out of position a lot. And even the elite guys like Revis and JoJo have broken plays, bad coverage or are out of position sometimes.

KJ will never be Revis - but right now KJ is the guy Kubiak hoped to draft last year. An exceptional good tackler that will get beat now and then but will give the pass rush time and make a challenge for the opposing receivers.

And todays game: he went up against possibly the best WR duo in the league and a pretty decent passer. How many passes did he allow? How many passes did JoJo allow? That last play was closer than I´d ve liked, but he made the play.

KJ looked bad once this season - yeah, once. And that was against the Sainst with possible the 2nd best QB playing right now. Brees made some great throws and the WR ran some great routes - but KJ got beat more than I´d like. But after that game he was one of the better CB in all of football and definetly a worthy #2.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:08 PM
The guy is a scapegoat even when we win.

i will drop it but mark my words, his coverage will come back to bite us in the ass, in a game where there is no other game if you dont win.

ObsiWan
12-04-2011, 05:10 PM
Kareem completely blew it on the last play, Julio had both hands on the ball and dropped it.

In a way, I'm glad KJ didn't go after that ball until after Jones touched it. The way the refs were calling against us today, he would have surely been called for pass interference.

fiasco west
12-04-2011, 05:10 PM
Alright - take a look back at the season: how often was KJ abused? How many games did he cost us?

In our 6 game winning streak KJ has played great - every guy makes mistakes and every CB allows some catches. KJ hasn`t allowed a lot of them and hasn`t been out of position a lot. And even the elite guys like Revis and JoJo have broken plays, bad coverage or are out of position sometimes.

KJ will never be Revis - but right now KJ is the guy Kubiak hoped to draft last year. An exceptional good tackler that will get beat now and then but will give the pass rush time and make a challenge for the opposing receivers.

And todays game: he went up against possibly the best WR duo in the league and a pretty decent passer. How many passes did he allow? How many passes did JoJo allow? That last play was closer than I´d ve liked, but he made the play.

KJ looked bad once this season - yeah, once. And that was against the Sainst with possible the 2nd best QB playing right now. Brees made some great throws and the WR ran some great coverages - but KJ got beat more than I´d like. But after that game he was one of the better CB in all of football and definetly a worthy #2.

I would rep you but I have to spread.

Since I agree with all of it. I have nothing else to say here.

buddyboy
12-04-2011, 05:11 PM
i will drop it but mark my words, his coverage will come back to bite us in the ass, in a game where there is no other game if you dont win.

Sure sounds like you hope it happens just so you can be right. I hope the Texans win no matter what, regardless if it takes a WR to drop the ball, or if Allen gets 5 interceptions. I root for the Texans, not against players.

Mr. White
12-04-2011, 05:12 PM
The guy is a scapegoat even when we win.

He could run back a pick 6 to win the Super Bowl and he'd still catch hell.

It's time to give it a rest.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:12 PM
Sure sounds like you hope it happens just so you can be right. I hope the Texans win no matter what, regardless if it takes a WR to drop the ball, or if Allen gets 5 interceptions. I root for the Texans, not against players.

No i hope it dont happen, but people refuse to see what a liability KJ is, and it will end up biting us in the ass.

GP
12-04-2011, 05:14 PM
I don't think much of KJ, but slow that last play down - look at it again - KJ got his hand in there just in the nick of time.

KJ made the play.

I dunno. I saw Jones drop the pass and KJ's hand come in after he had already dropped it. Will look at it again, though.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:15 PM
I dunno. I saw Jones drop the pass and KJ's hand come in after he had already dropped it. Will look at it again, though.

i have looked at it 100 times and that is what happened, KJ had no impact on the play even though he was standing right beside Julio.

LikeMike
12-04-2011, 05:16 PM
i will drop it but mark my words, his coverage will come back to bite us in the ass, in a game where there is no other game if you dont win.

Right now we have the #1 defense of the NFL - and KJ is a starter on that defense. If I remember correctly we also have the #1 pass defense and KJ is a starter on that defense.

Is that because of the pass rush? The pass rush needs time to get there, the CB need to give them the time. Last year they (including KJ) didn`t - this year they (including KJ) do.

Is it then because of the safety help? A little, sure? Last year our safeties sucked in coverage this year they are pretty good. But I don`t remember them helping KJ out all the time. And really, the best CBs usually have some good safeties to help out.

KJ was pathetic for the most part of last season. This season a lot of people only look for mistakes because they`ve already made up their mind about him. Give him a chance and look at him the same way you look at Allen our even JoJo.

You want an example of the subjective nature of judging him? How many jokes about him falling down do we hear regularly? When did he last fell down?

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:19 PM
Right now we have the #1 defense of the NFL - and KJ is a starter on that defense. If I remember correctly we also have the #1 pass defense and KJ is a starter on that defense.

Is that because of the pass rush? The pass rush needs time to get there, the CB need to give them the time. Last year they (including KJ) didn`t - this year they (including KJ) do.

Is it then because of the safety help? A little, sure? Last year our safeties sucked in coverage this year they are pretty good. But I don`t remember them helping KJ out all the time. And really, the best CBs usually have some good safeties to help out.

KJ was pathetic for the most part of last season. This season a lot of people only look for mistakes because they`ve already made up their mind about him. Give him a chance and look at him the same way you look at Allen our even JoJo.

You want an example of the subjective nature of judging him? How many jokes about him falling down do we hear regularly? When did he last fell down?

If u watch the games u will see that allen is in on 50% of the the plays, KJAC and allen switch in and out a lot. KJac is not in the same league as JoJo.

GP
12-04-2011, 05:23 PM
i have looked at it 100 times and that is what happened, KJ had no impact on the play even though he was standing right beside Julio.

He was watching the play, like he was a paying customer who had the best seat in the house. LOL.

I had my hands on top of my head, jaw dropped, eyes bugged out. I couldn't even talk for about 5 seconds after the play was over. I just was frozen in that position, in a mini-coma from the shock of how Julio Jones dropped the pass and KJ had zero impact on the play. Zero.

ThaJokaa
12-04-2011, 05:24 PM
Haters gonna hate; Trollers gon troll

LikeMike
12-04-2011, 05:26 PM
Yeah, they switch in and out because they play about at the same level and stay fresh this way. I never said he plays the same level as JoJo. Jojo is a beast and a top5 CB in the league. KJ is slightly above average and somewhere around the top 30-40 CB in the league.

I just say: whenever KJ makes a mistake a lot of guys go out very vocally and say: he sucks, cut him, end the experiment. Now he didn`t make a lot of mistakes the last 6 weeks so we didn`t hear a lot about this, but today because he ALMOST allowed a last second catch (after playing pretty decent before) the discussion starts again.

But when a guy like JoJo makes a mistake (he was burned in the 1st quarter as well, and he allowed a couple of other catches) we don`t hear much criticism because we know how good he is.

Now just believe, that KJ isn`t that bad as you think. He is decent. Not a #1 CB but a more than serviceable #2CB. About as good as Allen (Allen makes the INTs, KJ makes the big tackles in run support and ST) but still a couple of years younger.

KJ was part of the problem last year. KJ is part of the success this year.

ThaJokaa
12-04-2011, 05:30 PM
Heres the play; near the end

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011120408/2011/REG13/falcons@texans?module=HP11_headline_stack#tab=reca p&recap=quicktake&menu=highlights

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 05:30 PM
He was watching the play, like he was a paying customer who had the best seat in the house. LOL.

I had my hands on top of my head, jaw dropped, eyes bugged out. I couldn't even talk for about 5 seconds after the play was over. I just was frozen in that position, in a mini-coma from the shock of how Julio Jones dropped the pass and KJ had zero impact on the play. Zero.

yeah i know, i think some people didnt see that play and are just chimming in, oh well we got luck we won. And we are 9-3 so i'll take it, but i still feel KJACs coverage will come back to bite us in a game that REALLY REALLY matters.

Thorn
12-04-2011, 05:30 PM
KJ was part of the problem last year. KJ is part of the success this year.

Exactly. While he isn't a great CB, he is doing much better than last year. If he keeps improving, he might be a great CB. I see no sense in still being mad at him for his pathetic play last year. That's last year, and this is a new year and we got the number 1 defense in the NFL. Still.

buddyboy
12-04-2011, 05:31 PM
Yeah, they switch in and out because they play about at the same level and stay fresh this way. I never said he plays the same level as JoJo. Jojo is a beast and a top5 CB in the league. KJ is slightly above average and somewhere around the top 30-40 CB in the league.

I just say: whenever KJ makes a mistake a lot of guys go out very vocally and say: he sucks, cut him, end the experiment. Now he didn`t make a lot of mistakes the last 6 weeks so we didn`t hear a lot about this, but today because he ALMOST allowed a last second catch (after playing pretty decent before) the discussion starts again.

But when a guy like JoJo makes a mistake (he was burned in the 1st quarter as well, and he allowed a couple of other catches) we don`t hear much criticism because we know how good he is.

Now just believe, that KJ isn`t that bad as you think. He is decent. Not a #1 CB but a more than serviceable #2CB. About as good as Allen (Allen makes the INTs, KJ makes the big tackles in run support and ST) but still a couple of years younger.

KJ was part of the problem last year. KJ is part of the success this year.

Great post, I agree with a lot of it. I think KJ and Allen are around the same level and I love the combination we've been using recently.

The improvement that KJ has made this year is lightyears away from where he was last year, imagine if he can continue to improve at this rate. We as fans have to remember he's a second yearp layer

Joeycharp89
12-04-2011, 05:31 PM
If KJ was playing poorly we'd be seeing him a lot more often. Aside from his pick, and a big hit to break up a play (on a guy he wasn't even covering), and that hail mary, I didn't see Jackson often. Was pretty happy with that.

Corrosion
12-04-2011, 05:31 PM
I have had enough. That last play could havwe cost us a W. How many plays do we let this guy give up before we end this. Very frustrating to watch.

Woulda Coulda Shoulda ...... and if frog a woulda had wings they wouldnt bump their ass when they hop.


Jackson had a pretty solid day as did the entire defense giving up just .... 10 points to an offense who threw the ball 40+ times today.

GP
12-04-2011, 05:36 PM
Great post, I agree with a lot of it. I think KJ and Allen are around the same level and I love the combination we've been using recently.

The improvement that KJ has made this year is lightyears away from where he was last year, imagine if he can continue to improve at this rate. We as fans have to remember he's a second yearp layer

I think the improvement of the defense as a whole is why a lot of people say "I think KJ has improved from last year."

No pass rush last year, subpar LB play, and a weak Safety (Pollard) against the pass meant the CBs had to play up a little bit...and they didn't. Now we have a pass rush, we have a real safety (Manning) and a real d-coord (Phillips), and a true #1 CB to play against teams' best WR; it all means KJ's ineffectiveness gets masked a little bit better.

That last play, IMO, is the crux of the KJ problem--A bit slow to make a play when it's a deeper pass thrown on him. Good at the shallow stuff, don't get me wrong, but long passes seem to be his downfall a lot.

I give him credit, though: Makes sure tackles in the run game, held onto his interception today, and played pretty good overall.

srrono
12-04-2011, 05:37 PM
http://i44.tinypic.com/j9ugyp.jpg

False Start
12-04-2011, 05:38 PM
Here is a video of the last 8 seconds, replays and all.

Link (http://youtu.be/_pJgyTt2IzI)

Doppelganger
12-04-2011, 05:47 PM
I have had enough. That last play could havwe cost us a W. How many plays do we let this guy give up before we end this. Very frustrating to watch.

Atlanta averages 23.5 ppg. Today they got 10.
Matty Ice averages a 62.4 % percentage. Today he was around 43%.
He averages 7.33 yards a pass completion, today he got 5.8.
His typical QB rating is 89.3. Today it was 52.7.

KJ had 1 pass deflection and 1 INT. Was he a superstar? No. Did he play poorly? nope.

Sorry, your argument falls flat on its face. Next time use stats, not emotion.

steelbtexan
12-04-2011, 05:57 PM
Facts are the defense only gave up 10 pts against a very high powered offense.

KJ didn't have a good game today. But he's so much better than he was last yr. Atleast he didn't allow any huge game changing plays.

Corrosion
12-04-2011, 06:01 PM
Atlanta averages 23.5 ppg. Today they got 10.
Matty Ice averages a 62.4 % percentage. Today he was around 43%.
He averages 7.33 yards a pass completion, today he got 5.8.
His typical QB rating is 89.3. Today it was 52.7.

KJ had 1 pass deflection and 1 INT. Was he a superstar? No. Did he play poorly? nope.

Sorry, your argument falls flat on its face. Next time use stats, not emotion.

Those numbers force his credibility meter into a nose dive ...... Somewhere near absolute zero.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 06:03 PM
Atlanta averages 23.5 ppg. Today they got 10.
Matty Ice averages a 62.4 % percentage. Today he was around 43%.
He averages 7.33 yards a pass completion, today he got 5.8.
His typical QB rating is 89.3. Today it was 52.7.

KJ had 1 pass deflection and 1 INT. Was he a superstar? No. Did he play poorly? nope.

Sorry, your argument falls flat on its face. Next time use stats, not emotion.

those stats prove nothing for KJ considering J Allen played half the time.

foo82
12-04-2011, 06:09 PM
u do realize he was beat on his INT right, thank god the ball was underthrown and the WR had to turn around and run back like 10 yards to try to stop it....haha

Now I know you are grasping at straws. That wasn't even his man.

Kareem was covering the left half. His man ran a slant route. Both safeties bit the flea flicker. Joseph released white to cover the slant as he ran towards his sideline. Luckily KJ was there to cover the skinny post route. He wasn't beat, and you can see him waiting on the ball.

Corrosion
12-04-2011, 06:11 PM
u do realize he was beat on his INT right, thank god the ball was underthrown and the WR had to turn around and run back like 10 yards to try to stop it....haha

Shut up , go drink another beer ..... game over 17-10 Texans WIN. :fans:

ThaJokaa
12-04-2011, 06:19 PM
Now I know you are grasping at straws. That wasn't even his man.

Kareem was covering the left half. His man ran a slant route. Both safeties bit the flea flicker. Joseph released white to cover the slant as he ran towards his sideline. Luckily KJ was there to cover the skinny post route. He wasn't beat, and you can see him waiting on the ball.

beat me to it

Showtime100
12-04-2011, 06:19 PM
Shut up , go drink another beer ..... game over 17-10 Texans WIN. :fans:

....even with Kareem. The Texans must be really good. :fingergun:

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 06:23 PM
Now I know you are grasping at straws. That wasn't even his man.

Kareem was covering the left half. His man ran a slant route. Both safeties bit the flea flicker. Joseph released white to cover the slant as he ran towards his sideline. Luckily KJ was there to cover the skinny post route. He wasn't beat, and you can see him waiting on the ball.

dude go watch NFL Network they have a perfect replay that shows KJac having NO impact on the play. Julio Dropped it, Kjac got lucky. I'm not grasping at straws. The proof is in all the different camera angels on replays. Go watch them all and you tell me that KJac made a play, you wont be able to.

OzzO
12-04-2011, 06:25 PM
psst, Ellis - he's talking about a different play now, you know - the other one you brought up?

foo82
12-04-2011, 06:26 PM
dude go watch NFL Network they have a perfect replay that shows KJac having NO impact on the play. Julio Dropped it, Kjac got lucky. I'm not grasping at straws. The proof is in all the different camera angels on replays. Go watch them all and you tell me that KJac made a play, you wont be able to.

Wow, Now I know you are delusional. You don't even know what plays you are referring to now.


BUt BUT BUT KJ GOT BURNNEED Incomprehensible logic mixed with burnt toast analogies.
/Ellis

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Wow, Now I know you are delusional. You don't even know what plays you are referring to now.


BUt BUT BUT KJ GOT BURNNEED Incomprehensible logic mixed with burnt toast analogies.
/Ellis

yeah i realized that after i had already posted. oh well, he was beat and the ball was under thrown, let me watch it again.

Yeah the ball was badly thrown and right to him. Matt Ryan had a lot of nad throws today, but hey congrats to Kjac for getting the INT.

amazing80
12-04-2011, 06:32 PM
http://i44.tinypic.com/j9ugyp.jpg

Looks like his arm is in there to me.....

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 06:33 PM
Looks like his arm is in there to me.....

watch NFL Network they show a perfect replay, KJAC had no impact on that play. Julios bad hands are what impacted that play.

TexansFanatic
12-04-2011, 06:35 PM
Looks like his arm is in there to me.....

No, his arm is underneath Jones' arm.

EDIT: But it's not clear from that photo what impact KJ's arm/hand may have had after the photo was snapped.

amazing80
12-04-2011, 06:36 PM
watch NFL Network they show a perfect replay, KJAC had no impact on that play. Julios bad hands are what impacted that play.

why watch a replay when you can CLEARLY see his arm in a still picture, put down the beer and get some sleep old man, we won

amazing80
12-04-2011, 06:37 PM
No, his arm is underneath Jones' arm.

underneath HITTING HIS ARM, you ever try to catch a ball while someone was hitting your arm? thats what corners do, his your arms or the ball....quit bitching like little school girls already my god

Playoffs
12-04-2011, 06:37 PM
Texans obviously still need to work on defending Hail Mary passes as there were 3 guys standing there looking at Julio. It was poorly defended.

C'mon, Wade ... look up 2010 vs. Jaguars???

And we also had an awful end zone breakdown on White's TD.

But KJ had an overall pretty good game, nice interception.

foo82
12-04-2011, 06:37 PM
yeah i realized that after i had already posted. oh well, he was beat and the ball was under thrown, let me watch it again.

Yeah the ball was badly thrown and right to him. Matt Ryan had a lot of nad throws today, but hey congrats to Kjac for getting the INT.

Yet you conveniently ignore my argument. He was not beat. He just picked up a man who probably should have been covered by the safeties. This was originally Joseph's man. Both safeties bit the run fake.

As for the last play. I was at the game at the opposite endzone so couldn't say for sure. I watched the replays and agree that KJ should had made a better play on the ball. He had better positioning and had tracked the ball before the receiver looked at it. At that point he should have beat him to the spot and made an attempt and knocking the ball down

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 06:38 PM
why watch a replay when you can CLEARLY see his arm in a still picture, put down the beer and get some sleep old man, we won

yeah his "Hand" was in there but he didnt even pull Julios arm down our touch the ball. he had no effect on that play. The highlights are there, i think some just refuse to watch.

Mr. White
12-04-2011, 06:41 PM
yeah his "Hand" was in there but he didnt even pull Julios arm down our touch the ball. he had no effect on that play. The highlights are there, i think some just refuse to watch.

You should call out TJ Yates while you're at it for throwing that pick-6. That result was just as meaningless.

Ryan
12-04-2011, 06:44 PM
Some people are still stuck in last year. Just face it, KJ is improving and Kubiak is a good coach.

TexansFanatic
12-04-2011, 06:45 PM
yeah his "Hand" was in there but he didnt even pull Julios arm down our touch the ball. he had no effect on that play. The highlights are there, i think some just refuse to watch.

I've watched the NFL Network replay a number of times now and KJ's glove is clearly visible on Jones' arm the entire time the ball is in play.

It's not clear that KJ is pulling Jones' arm down.

It's also not clear that he isn't.

TexansFanatic
12-04-2011, 06:46 PM
underneath HITTING HIS ARM, you ever try to catch a ball while someone was hitting your arm? thats what corners do, his your arms or the ball....quit bitching like little school girls already my god

The histrionics are all yours.

I was making an observation.

76Texan
12-04-2011, 06:53 PM
I've watched the NFL Network replay a number of times now and KJ's glove is clearly visible on Jones' arm the entire time the ball is in play.

It's not clear that KJ is pulling Jones' arm down.

It's also not clear that he isn't.

KJ could have playd that one better; but still he recovered and put his arm between Julio arms (that's what a CB is supposed to do) and thenpulled on Julio's left arm.
He was credited with a pass defended by NFL.com

3-15-HOU 30 (:01) (Shotgun) 2-M.Ryan pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Jones (25-K.Jackson).

If Jackson had nothing to do with the play, he wouldn't have been credited with anything.

...

His INT came on the 2-man route that I had described several times.
Jackson was the off-side CB (RCB).
The receiver (White) came from the other side of the field (JJo's man).
Julio was Jackson's man; he ran the crossing route while White ran the post route.
The Texans had a drop-kick call on, Jackson did his job nicely and intercepted the ball.

...

Quit being HATERS! LOL!

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 06:55 PM
KJ could have playd that one better; but still he recovered and put his arm between Julio arms (that's what a CB is supposed to do) and thenpulled on Julio's left arm.
He was credited with a pass defended by NFL.com

3-15-HOU 30 (:01) (Shotgun) 2-M.Ryan pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Jones (25-K.Jackson).

...

His INT came on the 2-man route that I had described several times.
Jackson was the off-side CB (LCB).
The receiver (White) came from the other side of the field (JJo's man).
Julio was Jackson's man; he ran the crossing route while White ran the post route.
The Texans had a drop-kick call on, Jackson did his job nicely and intercepted the ball.

...

Quit being HATERS! LOL!

Jackson did not pull Julios arm down. Like i told everyone, watch NFL Network they have the perfect replay to show KJAC did nothing but give Julio a perfect chance to tie the game.

76Texan
12-04-2011, 06:57 PM
Jackson did not pull Julios arm down. Like i told everyone, watch NFL Network they have the perfect replay to show KJAC did nothing but give Julio a perfect chance to tie the game.

I did!

Quit being a HATER!

When you refuse to take NFL.com assesment, you might want to... never mind!

I won't respond to you again on this matter.
It was booked as a PD by Jackson.
Deal with it!

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 06:59 PM
watch this at the 3:05 minute mark, julio jones swats his own ball down. Kjac had nothing to do with him not catching the ball

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824bad22/Falcons-vs-Texans-highlights

Doppelganger
12-04-2011, 07:01 PM
those stats prove nothing for KJ considering J Allen played half the time.

Actually it makes KJ look a lot better when you factor that he got 3 tackles, 1 INT, and 1 PD in half the defensive snaps.

Ouch!

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/haters-gonna-hate18.jpg?w=500&h=366

thunderkyss
12-04-2011, 07:02 PM
I have had enough. That last play could havwe cost us a W. How many plays do we let this guy give up before we end this. Very frustrating to watch.

Julio Jones had the ball in his hands. Kj grabbed one of his arms causing the ball to not be in his hands by the time his feet hit the ground.

Of course, if that were you or me out there, the ball would never have been in Jones' hands, but a pass defended is a pass defended.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 07:02 PM
by the time Kjac finally starts pulling his arm down, the ball is already out of Julios hands. Jackson had bad coverage. 76 even if he had caught that ball you would still defend Jackson. When it comes to Kjac i listen to you about as much as a 16 year old listens to their parents.

TexCanada
12-04-2011, 07:02 PM
watch this at the 3:05 minute mark, julio jones swats his own ball down. Kjac had nothing to do with him not catching the ball

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824bad22/Falcons-vs-Texans-highlights

Who would you rather have in the game? KJ is far from perfect, but he is a good football player and is the 2nd/3rd best corner on this team.

thunderkyss
12-04-2011, 07:05 PM
u do realize he was beat on his INT right, thank god the ball was underthrown and the WR had to turn around and run back like 10 yards to try to stop it....haha

Go back & look at some of 76 Texans' posts. There is one (that we've talked about a lot) where there is a two receiver route, the play side safety cuts inside on the crossing receiver from the off-side & the off-side CB (Kj in this case) comes from the other side of the field & makes the play.

The QB thinks he's got a wide open receiver & the CB (Kj in this case) comes from the other side of the field to make the play. That's what happened on this play, Kj came from the other side of the field, that wasn't his man.

.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 07:05 PM
Who would you rather have in the game? KJ is far from perfect, but he is a good football player and is the 2nd/3rd best corner on this team.

hmmmmm why did you even ask that, everyone knows who i'd say.

burro
12-04-2011, 07:06 PM
I swear, there are some in this fan base that are incapable of just taking a win. You'd think that Jones had actually caught the damn thing. Reality check: We won. We're on a winning streak. That is unusual. Be Happy.

Rey
12-04-2011, 07:06 PM
Jackson did not pull Julios arm down. Like i told everyone, watch NFL Network they have the perfect replay to show KJAC did nothing but give Julio a perfect chance to tie the game.

Ellis, it wasn't great coverage by kj but ask yourself this: does Julio's chances increase or decrease if kj is not right there pestering him?

Look, he scared me on that play and I still worry about his deep ball coverage but you have to give credit where it's due and you have to pick your battles.

This is not a 5 page topic IMO. We won the game, kareem was a factor on Julio not making that last catch. He didnt totally shut it down, but he was a factor against a freakishly athletic receiver.

He's not going to smother everyone every time.

Scooter
12-04-2011, 07:08 PM
especially as just a second year player, jackson has been extremely solid this year and today was no different. jackson still has a lot of work to do, but the jump between last year and this year is incredible. he is actually starting to look a LOT like JJo to me. he's taking on a lot of joseph's style and approach. obviously nowhere near as refined, but jackson's good and getting better.

per the last play, "you're both right". i would've liked a little better positioning, but it did appear that jackson got in there just enough to mess up the receiver's left arm and cause the incompletion. bump, pull, or grab doesnt matter - the effect is the same.

EllisUnit
12-04-2011, 07:13 PM
ewww i'm done arguing it, Kjac will mess up in a big game and the WR wont drop the ball i just hope its not in a do or die game. Kjac is a liability out there. Sorry but the ONLY good QB we have faced all year while Kjac has played was brees in which Kjac looked bad and then Matt Ryan, all i can say is thank god for all the dropped passes.

When it comes time to play the likes of tom brady, Drew Breese again then Kjac will not "look" so good.

PockyAF
12-04-2011, 07:19 PM
lemme guess, this ********* is 76Texan?

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k478/daniel78753/76phaggot.png

thunderkyss
12-04-2011, 07:24 PM
ewww i'm done arguing it, Kjac will mess up in a big game and the WR wont drop the ball i just hope its not in a do or die game. Kjac is a liability out there. Sorry but the ONLY good QB we have faced all year while Kjac has played was brees in which Kjac looked bad and then Matt Ryan, all i can say is thank god for all the dropped passes.

When it comes time to play the likes of tom brady, Drew Breese again then Kjac will not "look" so good.

Please watch that game again. Kj looked great (yes, I said great) for all but one drive in that game.


Great.

LikeMike
12-04-2011, 07:38 PM
ewww i'm done arguing it, Kjac will mess up in a big game and the WR wont drop the ball i just hope its not in a do or die game.

You know what? I actually believe this could very well happen. And you know what? That happens even to the best CBs some time.

A CB is not bad because he does one big mistake. A CB is bad when he regularly makes mistakes (like KJ did last year). Now basically what you are saying is: KJ is a liablity and we are lucky, that the other coaches and QBs weren`t smart enough to take advantage of this - and now take a moment and think about that: do you really think NFL coaches and QBs don`t do a lot of film studies and gameplanning so they would`ve figured this out? Wouldn`t they think: hey last year he sucked, we should just keep throwing at him now that they have a good CB on the other side?

If KJ was such a liability, other teams would`ve exploit it. If only QBs like Brees can exploit it, then he can`t be that bad - because Brees makes pretty much every CB look bad. Nobody says KJ is a great CB - but if you could get over all the bad feelings about him that you collected last year, you would start to see that he is having a real nice season.

fiasco west
12-04-2011, 07:38 PM
especially as just a second year player, jackson has been extremely solid this year and today was no different. jackson still has a lot of work to do, but the jump between last year and this year is incredible. he is actually starting to look a LOT like JJo to me. he's taking on a lot of joseph's style and approach. obviously nowhere near as refined, but jackson's good and getting better.

per the last play, "you're both right". i would've liked a little better positioning, but it did appear that jackson got in there just enough to mess up the receiver's left arm and cause the incompletion. bump, pull, or grab doesnt matter - the effect is the same.

You know what the funny thing is?

If Kareem did nothing at all Julio Jones catches that ball without any interference.

One man was running to the zone while another was behind Julio. Kareem was the only one looking to make a play, any kind of play....

Could he have done better. Most definitely. But if he's not even there no one else is even close enough to make the play.

Which is why I said in the other thread, it was some bad zone defense when Julio can get a open catch in the EZ in that situation.

Edit: Pretty much, there were 3 guys playing zone in that area of the field. Julio is the ONLY WR on the left side of the field...and Kareem is the ONLY DB that is close enough to make the play...

GP
12-04-2011, 08:01 PM
hmmmmm why did you even ask that, everyone knows who i'd say.

I'd take the guy who has FOUR interceptions in only playing 50% snaps, in comparison to the guy who has ONE interception and just now got it TODAY in the 12th game of the year.

Jason Allen is making more plays, and you make more plays by being more instinctive on where to be, how to get there, and how to seal the deal.

This whole "KJ doesn't look nearly as bad as he did last year" crap is funny. It's rah-rah Kool Aid, my team doesn't make mistakes so we root for the round 1 draft pick and shade his growth irrespective of how the WHOLE defense around him is playing lights out and minimizing his lack of talent.

Lance Zerlein (sp?) told a guy on twitter that Jones dropped a sure TD pass. Lance is a respected analyst and doesn't shade the things he sees and comments upon. It was a dropped pass and KJ was late to defend it [/discussion]. We'll never know if the powerful bicep grab of KJ was going to knock out the football. Two feet down and the ball in both hands would have been TD Falcons, game over...while theorizing that KJ jerks Jones' left arm to the extent that it breaks up the pass before it can be ruled "possession."

But hey, he doesn't look nearly as bad as he did last year...for a guy who is playing 50% of CB2 snaps. LOL.

GP
12-04-2011, 08:03 PM
You know what the funny thing is?

If Kareem did nothing at all Julio Jones catches that ball without any interference.

One man was running to the zone while another was behind Julio. Kareem was the only one looking to make a play, any kind of play....

Could he have done better. Most definitely. But if he's not even there no one else is even close enough to make the play.

Which is why I said in the other thread, it was some bad zone defense when Julio can get a open catch in the EZ in that situation.

Edit: Pretty much, there were 3 guys playing zone in that area of the field. Julio is the ONLY WR on the left side of the field...and Kareem is the ONLY DB that is close enough to make the play...

Quin was trailing the play, I suppose he could have tried to bat the ball down. :kitten:

KJ was out of position and J Joseph was, too, on the previous play. In reality, the Falcons blew two back-to-back chances at a game-tying TD catch.

But Jackson, overall, still seems late and slow to react on deep pass plays.

fiasco west
12-04-2011, 08:13 PM
Quin was trailing the play, I suppose he could have tried to bat the ball down. :kitten:

KJ was out of position and J Joseph was, too, on the previous play. In reality, the Falcons blew two back-to-back chances at a game-tying TD catch.

But Jackson, overall, still seems late and slow to react on deep pass plays.

Yep Quinn was trailing and someone else whose number I can't quite see and runs out of the scene is only about 3 feet from the play and just runs behind Jones and almost looks like he's anticipating something else. He does nothing, he doesn't affect anything going on there. If Kareem wasn't there at all Julio is grabbing the ball without any interference. Kareem pulls his arm, if Julio had stronger hands he makes the catch, but Kareem definitely pulled his arm.

Still though just like on the previous play they ALL need to play better in that situation. The Falcons had two shots at the game tying TD, I can agree with that. But it was far from being KJs sole responsibility.

TexCanada
12-04-2011, 08:14 PM
hmmmmm why did you even ask that, everyone knows who i'd say.

I have no idea, but I would have to assume you think Allen is better since there is no one else even close. For that last play, was Allen in the game? He got shaken up a few plays earlier and may not even have been available.

Scooter
12-04-2011, 08:39 PM
I'd take the guy who has FOUR interceptions in only playing 50% snaps, in comparison to the guy who has ONE interception and just now got it TODAY in the 12th game of the year.

Jason Allen is making more plays, and you make more plays by being more instinctive on where to be, how to get there, and how to seal the deal.

This whole "KJ doesn't look nearly as bad as he did last year" crap is funny. It's rah-rah Kool Aid, my team doesn't make mistakes so we root for the round 1 draft pick and shade his growth irrespective of how the WHOLE defense around him is playing lights out and minimizing his lack of talent.

Lance Zerlein (sp?) told a guy on twitter that Jones dropped a sure TD pass. Lance is a respected analyst and doesn't shade the things he sees and comments upon. It was a dropped pass and KJ was late to defend it [/discussion]. We'll never know if the powerful bicep grab of KJ was going to knock out the football. Two feet down and the ball in both hands would have been TD Falcons, game over...while theorizing that KJ jerks Jones' left arm to the extent that it breaks up the pass before it can be ruled "possession."

But hey, he doesn't look nearly as bad as he did last year...for a guy who is playing 50% of CB2 snaps. LOL.

this sounds like asante samuel vs nnamdi asomugha. one a deep zone playmaker vulnerable to slant, curl, and out routes, compared to a man to man defender who doesnt force many turnovers. i take nnamdi and kareem jackson ... especially with their run support factored in. sure jason allen is making more plays, he's also giving up more. the last time allen saw more than 50% of the defensive snaps, the raiders walked repeatedly down the field with the same dang play.

and now watching the replays, kareem jackson is wearing white gloves. folks missing his hand inside of jones's left arm are actively ignoring it. whether jones could've or should've powered through is all opinion, but after watching andre's hand strength on that 50 yard reception houston fans are biased on what receivers are capable of muscling for.

ObsiWan
12-04-2011, 08:51 PM
Quin was trailing the play, I suppose he could have tried to bat the ball down. :kitten:

KJ was out of position and J Joseph was, too, on the previous play. In reality, the Falcons blew two back-to-back chances at a game-tying TD catch.

But Jackson, overall, still seems late and slow to react on deep pass plays.

I'll take it.
After all the injury crap the football deities serve up to us week in and week out, we deserve a break like this.

They had two chances to make a play - well, at least one, that first throw was over both the WR and DB's head - and didn't do it.

ATL will get no sympathy from me.

LikeMike
12-04-2011, 08:53 PM
I'd take the guy who has FOUR interceptions in only playing 50% snaps, in comparison to the guy who has ONE interception and just now got it TODAY in the 12th game of the year.

Jason Allen is making more plays, and you make more plays by being more instinctive on where to be, how to get there, and how to seal the deal.

This whole "KJ doesn't look nearly as bad as he did last year" crap is funny. It's rah-rah Kool Aid, my team doesn't make mistakes so we root for the round 1 draft pick and shade his growth irrespective of how the WHOLE defense around him is playing lights out and minimizing his lack of talent.

Lance Zerlein (sp?) told a guy on twitter that Jones dropped a sure TD pass. Lance is a respected analyst and doesn't shade the things he sees and comments upon. It was a dropped pass and KJ was late to defend it [/discussion]. We'll never know if the powerful bicep grab of KJ was going to knock out the football. Two feet down and the ball in both hands would have been TD Falcons, game over...while theorizing that KJ jerks Jones' left arm to the extent that it breaks up the pass before it can be ruled "possession."

But hey, he doesn't look nearly as bad as he did last year...for a guy who is playing 50% of CB2 snaps. LOL.

Why change what is working? I like Allen. I really do. He can change the momentum of games. But I like him splitting time with KJ. Both stay fresh throughout the game. What does KJ bring to the table that Allen doesn`t? His coverage in the first 2-3 seconds are way better, he doesn`t give up as many short or medium throws. His tackling is way better. So when we bring pressure KJ will keep the QB from making a quick throw - while Allen gets the INTs from the bad throws (the QB think his guy is open because Allen plays off but gets rattled by the pass rush). But when the QB gets time for a long throw, Allen is better in running with the receiver, finding the ball and make a play on it.

Nobody says KJ should play more than he is doing right now. Nobody says he is a great CB. But he is nowhere near as bad as last year. He has played pretty good coverage basically the whole year. A lot of our sacks were coverage sacks - for a coverage sacks all DBs must do their job. KJ did.

Last year he sucked - he was put in an impossible situation and looked like a 5th round rookie out there that was gonna sell cars in a couple of years. This year with a good team he is improving and looks good.

It`s always good to take a step back and think: hmm, when so many people have a different oppinion, maybe mine is not 100% correct... KJ is nowhere near an all-star - but he is nowhere near as bad as some of you think.

Imatexanfan
12-04-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm afraid if we release the guy he'll be a star on a rival team kinda like Babin is...:fingergun:

El Tejano
12-04-2011, 10:10 PM
I am going to lay off KJ tonight. He had a decent to good game. As for the drops, I believe ATLs WR were getting hit a little hard today and quickly too. I'm sure there was a bit of fear going on there. KJ put a good hit on one of those guys that shouldn't have been flagged.

wildroot
12-04-2011, 10:20 PM
I wouldn't get too ticky-tacky...our defense of which KJ is a part of held Atlanta to 10 points, and the win. Nuff said.

thunderkyss
12-04-2011, 10:23 PM
I'd take the guy who has FOUR interceptions in only playing 50% snaps, in comparison to the guy who has ONE interception and just now got it TODAY in the 12th game of the year.

Jason Allen is making more plays, and you make more plays by being more instinctive on where to be, how to get there, and how to seal the deal.


But hey, he doesn't look nearly as bad as he did last year...for a guy who is playing 50% of CB2 snaps. LOL.

The part bolded is a funny argument for either Jackson or Allen.

gtexan02
12-04-2011, 10:55 PM
We have the #1 pass defense. Quit second guessing the coaches

76Texan
12-04-2011, 10:55 PM
The second-year cornerback followed up a brilliant game in Jacksonville with another Sunday against Atlanta, causing cornerback Johnathan Joseph to gloat.

“I told y’all he was getting better every week,” he said.

Jackson was credited with two passes defensed and three tackles, none bigger or louder than his crushing blow on Roddy White in the third quarter. It was a 15-yard gain, but Jackson leveled White, and the hit drew a flag at first, presumably for helmet-to-helmet contact. But officials picked it up after it was agreed that Jackson led with his shoulder.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2011/12/jackson-among-defensive-stars-in-win-over-atlanta/

76Texan
12-04-2011, 10:57 PM
Falcons head coach Mike Smith during his interview with the Atlanta media

http://www.atlantafalcons.com/2011/11/transcript-mike-smith-post-practice-interview-70/

On Texans CB Johnathan Joseph:
“Done a very nice job at the corner position. He was a free agent acquisition during the offseason. Very talented player. Again, very integral in the success that they’ve had on defense.”

On Texans CB Kareem Jackson:
“Kareem Jackson, the other corner, is playing well. That’s a very solid defense and their record indicates. They’re 8-3, best record in the AFC. It’ll be fun going down there and competing against them.”

76Texan
12-04-2011, 11:28 PM
http://www.atlantafalcons.com/2011/11/transcript-matt-ryan-locker-room-interview-9/


Transcript: Matt Ryan Locker Room Interview
By: Jay Adams | November 30th, 2011

On the Texans defense:
“When you turn on the tape, it doesn’t surprise you. You see really good effort across the board, front seven and in the secondary. They’re doing a great job of stopping the run and they’re really effective getting after the passer. I think they’re second in the League in sacks. So it’s a good defense, top to bottom.”

On what sets the Texans defense apart from a typical 3-4 defense:
“Typically, from the defensive line in a 3-4, you see two-gap guys that kind of stay at the line of scrimmage and don’t get a ton on penetration. But this defense, they really do. They get a lot of penetration. (Defensive Coordinator Wade Phillips) Wade, he’s been in that system a long time. He’s got a great feel for calling things at the right time and putting his guys in a good position to make plays. They’re doing a great job.”

On Texans LB Brian Cushing and how active he is in both the run and pass defense:
“He’s very active. Very good player. Somebody we’re going to have to be aware of where he’s at in both the run game and the pass game. He looks like, on tape, he’s an emotional leader for that defense. He does a great job of rallying those guys and I’ve been very impressed with him.”

On Texans S Danieal Manning and S Glover Quin:
“Safeties are strong. Manning, we’ve seen a little bit in his days with Chicago, so familiar with him. But all-in-all, it’s a very good defense. They do a great job. Their safeties do a great job in coming up and supporting the run, but also in coverage. They’re both talented guys that can cover in man coverage, so they make it difficult on an offense because they can do so many different things.”

On Texans CB Kareem Jackson:
“I’ll have to get (QB John Parker Wilson) J.P.’s scouting report. I think both those guys, really both their corners are playing very well. They put them on islands in their quarters coverage, where they allow their safeties to come up and support the run and those guys have done a great job.”

76Texan
12-04-2011, 11:47 PM
http://www.dailyherald.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=DA&Date=20111204&Category=SPORTS&ArtNo=712049844&Ref=AR&maxw=283&maxh=370&Q=70&cache=1

Houston Texans cornerback Kareem Jackson breaks up a pass intended for Atlanta Falcons wide receiver Julio Jones on the final play Sunday in Houston. The Texans won 17-10.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20111204/sports/712049844/

76Texan
12-05-2011, 02:53 AM
I took screen shots of the last play, but I will wait to hopefully get a high-res version of the game to show it better.

Julio put a hand (very lightly) on KJ to get first jump and prevent KJ from doing same.

KJ played it well; he put his right hand between Julio's arms, waiting for the receiver to come down with the ball.
KJ then had his fingertips underneath the ball (yes, his fingers touched the ball) trying to poke at it.
He then hook his hand around Julio's left arm, near the elbow, to pull it down.

Originally, Julio had both hands on the ball. When Julio started to come down, his left arm hit KJ's hand, between the wrist and the palm.

All of KJ's actions definitely seperate them hands from the ball.

TexansFanatic
12-05-2011, 03:14 AM
I took screen shots of the last play, but I will wait to hopefully get a high-res version of the game to show it better.

Julio put a hand (very lightly) on KJ to get first jump and prevent KJ from doing same.

KJ played it well; he put his right hand between Julio's arms, waiting for the receiver to come down with the ball.
KJ then had his fingertips underneath the ball (yes, his fingers touched the ball) trying to poke at it.
He then hook his hand around Julio's left arm, near the elbow, to pull it down.

Originally, Julio had both hands on the ball. When Julio started to come down, his left arm hit KJ's hand, between the wrist and the palm.

All of KJ's actions definitely seperate them hands from the ball.

Outstanding work. Looking forward to seeing more screen shots.

PHAROAH
12-05-2011, 06:51 AM
I think that Kareem Jackson has played much better this season and he isn't getting burnt in coverage all the time. Look Julio Jones is a freak athlete at the WR position and at 6'3" 215 pounds vs. Kareem Jackson 5'11" 190 frame that is a like a point guard trying to play man defense on a small forward in the low post the small forward should get 80% of the rebounds. With that said the kid did really well yesterday and I am very happy with his improvement the real problem is that our Safety play is very very suspect they are out of place way to much.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 07:48 AM
http://www.atlantafalcons.com/2011/11/transcript-matt-ryan-locker-room-interview-9/


Transcript: Matt Ryan Locker Room Interview
By: Jay Adams | November 30th, 2011

On what sets the Texans defense apart from a typical 3-4 defense:
“Typically, from the defensive line in a 3-4, you see two-gap guys that kind of stay at the line of scrimmage and don’t get a ton on penetration. But this defense, they really do. They get a lot of penetration. (Defensive Coordinator Wade Phillips) Wade, he’s been in that system a long time. He’s got a great feel for calling things at the right time and putting his guys in a good position to make plays. They’re doing a great job.”



Tony Gonzales & Hugh Douglas was killing us over the middle in the first half. At least on their scoring drive. That's what happens, generally, when you blitz your LBs & leave the middle of the field open.

Later, especially in the 4th Qtr, most of the pressure came from 4 guys, with Brooks Reed dropping in coverage a lot.

That's what I needed to see. The Atlanta Falcons offense has only given up 22 sacks this year, that's pretty good (11th). We didn't record a sack, but I'm sure Ryan knew we were there.

Great job by Wade, the DL & the secondary..... great job by the defense all the way around.

10 points.


Wow

silvrhand
12-05-2011, 10:43 AM
lol... KJ = the new Chris Meyers..

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 11:03 AM
lol... KJ = the new Chris Meyers..

You have to admit .... they both had horrible seasons when they were being complained about heavily ..... If KJ can make the type of turnaround that Myers I'll be a happy fan.

GP
12-05-2011, 11:12 AM
I'm not going to say the guy stinks.

I just don't think he's progressed as much as he's being credited for around here.

There's a reason why KJ and JA are splitting time, and I think it's to help bring KJ along while giving Jason Allen the chance to give KJ a mental break every now and then, to slow down KJ's brain and not flood him with having to cover a guy the whole game.

It's coddling, but you know what??? It might just end up working out. Offenses can't just dial up an entire game's worth of plays that target Kareem Jackson because Kareem Jackson is not always out there to be matched up with.

gtexan02
12-05-2011, 12:02 PM
It's coddling, but you know what??? It might just end up working out. Offenses can't just dial up an entire game's worth of plays that target Kareem Jackson because Kareem Jackson is not always out there to be matched up with.

What do you mean it might work out? We have the #1 defense and the best record in the AFC. It has worked out.

silvrhand
12-05-2011, 01:20 PM
You have to admit .... they both had horrible seasons when they were being complained about heavily ..... If KJ can make the type of turnaround that Myers I'll be a happy fan.

Even with Myers turnaround he still gets beat and sometimes badly. But that doesn't mean we dig up yet another thread on him.

KJ is playing pretty consistently good for us right now he's getting better the last part of his game is he has to get better about realizing when the ball is in the air and make a better play on it. His tackling is fantastics, he's better in his coverage skills. He's what I would consider an average CB at this point, a decent #2.

I don't know why people expect us to have two #1 CB's on the field that can shutdown both halves. I still think people have very high expectations still that our defense is #1. Most of us would have been happy with a 15th ranked defense.

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Even with Myers turnaround he still gets beat and sometimes badly. But that doesn't mean we dig up yet another thread on him.



Myers is actually the #1 center in the NFL based on blocking metrics .... by a considerable margin ..... Go figure.


This OL is probably the leagues best UNIT.

Our defense is arguably the leagues best UNIT ..... KJ is a part of that :ahhaha:

GP
12-05-2011, 01:29 PM
What do you mean it might work out? We have the #1 defense and the best record in the AFC. It has worked out.

I'm talking about the first round draft pick, Kareem Jackson. I'm talking about whether he can reach this almost unreachable status of being a CB1 that only 4 people in the whole NFL can seemingly achieve.

I have questions after reading all these responses:

1. Why is it that having the #1 defense means that Kareem Jackson is playing better than he did last season? Couldn't the inverse be true? Couldn't it be that the defense as a whole is playing better and yet Kareem is staying in a marginal holding pattern while others around him succeed and produce more, consistently, than he does?

2. Why is it unfair to have CB1 expectations of him? Is it just because it's impossible to have TWO exceptional CBs on the field? Did I miss the NFL rule that says a team can only have ONE outstanding top-flight CB and the CB2 must be someone of lesser talent than the CB1???

All of it feels very "charitable cause" philanthropy going on. We're #1, so Kareem Jackson gets a pass and gets graded generously as a side benefit of our d-coord and the other 10 guys surrounding KJ.

Come on guys, the guy is not even playing every snap out there. He's splitting time with Jason Allen. Doesn't that signal that he's being coddled, still, that he's not even entrusted to be the main CB2 the vast majority of the game?

I'm fine with him splitting snaps 50-50 with Allen, I really am. If that's what it takes to minimize his impact on the games, then so be it. It's as close to a win-win as we can get.

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 01:33 PM
I'm talking about the first round draft pick, Kareem Jackson. I'm talking about whether he can reach this almost unreachable status of being a CB1 that only 4 people in the whole NFL can seemingly achieve.

I have questions after reading all these responses:



2. Why is it unfair to have CB1 expectations of him? Is it just because it's impossible to have TWO exceptional CBs on the field? Did I miss the NFL rule that says a team can only have ONE outstanding top-flight CB and the CB2 must be someone of lesser talent than the CB1???


I think your first paragraph answers the following question ...... There are only a few lockdown corners in the NFL ..... and even they get beat. Look at how the Bills attacked Revis last week (Despite the Jets finding a way to win).

GP
12-05-2011, 01:34 PM
The biggest winner and beneficiary of Wade Phillips and this year's turnaround is none other than Kareem Jackson.

Granted, he got stuck on a bad defense and was pretty much shocked and awe'd all last season. So maybe this is a year of stuff balancing itself out.

That's why I said, "This might work out after all," because I want to see him playing solidly and in position to make plays AND make those plays as a full-time CB2 and not splitting snaps 50-50 next season.

I think Wade is making 2011 KJ's rookie season, with Jason Allen out there to lighten the load and give KJ a chance to sit and watch on 50% of the plays. It's a great idea, actually. It's why I said "It might work out after all."

But continue to thump your chests and act like I don't know we have the #1 defense and that Kareem in in that club, too. Carry on....

silvrhand
12-05-2011, 01:39 PM
Myers is actually the #1 center in the NFL based on blocking metrics .... by a considerable margin ..... Go figure.


This OL is probably the leagues best UNIT.

Our defense is arguably the leagues best UNIT ..... KJ is a part of that :ahhaha:

And yesterday our OL didn't really have their best game either. 3 false starts are the absolutely worst time, one of the worst hits on a QB I've seen all year, with just a complete whiff by Eric Winston.. It wasn't pretty for them at all yesterday, but we won..

GP
12-05-2011, 01:40 PM
I think your first paragraph answers the following question ...... There are only a few lockdown corners in the NFL ..... and even they get beat. Look at how the Bills attacked Revis last week (Despite the Jets finding a way to win).

EVERYONE gets beat, Corrosion. That's not even a logical point for anybody to try and debate.

I'm talking about snap-by-snap consistency and trustworthiness in terms of your Cornerback being smart from the pre-snap read, to the snap and how you handle things, to the decisions you make in a split-second, and then how you finish off the play.

To that extent, a guy like Joseph or Revis or whomever is a talent that is what you need at CB. KJ had no choice where he was chosen in the draft, but he was chosen in the first round and I'd assume he's fine with that selection spot too. I'm sure he desires to be in the same tier as the guys we're listing as being top-flight CBs.

So we need to get past the issues of "expectations" and talk about reality and where he is and where he probably wants to BE someday. Right now, the guy is splitting snaps at 50-50 with Jason Allen. And a guy who is splitting snaps with him has been in better positions AND made many more interceptions than KJ has.

I'm fine with praising the guy, and I have done so a lot. Great run support, great on the shallow stuff, seems to have a work ethic and blah blah blah. But I won't sit here and pile in with the crowd and say, "Man, he looks better than last year!" He does? Why? Because he's a part of the #1 defense? I need more than that.

Year 3 will be interesting. Do we keep the 50-50 split with KJ, or does Wade during off-season film review and during camps and preseason make KJ the full-blown CB2 or does Wade go with someone else entirely? Should be interesting. I'm always expecting the best out of KJ, though.

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 01:45 PM
And yesterday our OL didn't really have their best game either. 3 false starts are the absolutely worst time, one of the worst hits on a QB I've seen all year, with just a complete whiff by Eric Winston.. It wasn't pretty for them at all yesterday, but we won..

Nope , it wasnt pretty by any stretch of the imagination .... and it seemed to drag on forever especially considering they ran the ball 44 times.


I'll take an ugly win over any snakebit loss we were subjected to last season all day long and twice on Sundays.

GP
12-05-2011, 01:46 PM
And yesterday our OL didn't really have their best game either. 3 false starts are the absolutely worst time, one of the worst hits on a QB I've seen all year, with just a complete whiff by Eric Winston.. It wasn't pretty for them at all yesterday, but we won..

I was thinking about something last night: I know--we all know--that all players "play with injuries." My concern is that our offensive line is bang'd up and limited on game day with the nagging aches and pains they've accumulated all season long.

Fatigue, injuries and aches and pains, it just adds up over time. Winston and Myers looked much sharper earlier in the season. The past three games, a few brain farts and some missed blocks that have been costly.

It's being nit picky, I know, but it's just the nature of being a fan. You want your strong guys to always be what you envision them as being, and I've just noticed some sloppy play that is noticeable to me but is probably normal for the average NFL player who goes through torture all season long. For MY entertainment, btw. LOL.

GP
12-05-2011, 01:50 PM
I don't think I agree with the title of the thread, for what that's worth.

I don't see it as ending an experiment. And I think this sort of label is unfair given the timing of how we're 9-3 and got 4 games to go in order to win or first AFC South Title in team history.

Honestly, I like the 50-50 split we're seeing. It's working. Let it continue to work, IMO. Then let's see what camp and preseason have to offer.

But until then, we just roll with what we got and talk about this in March or April when it's dead as hell in the NFL realm.

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 01:52 PM
EVERYONE gets beat, Corrosion. That's not even a logical point for anybody to try and debate.

I'm talking about snap-by-snap consistency and trustworthiness in terms of your Cornerback being smart from the pre-snap read, to the snap and how you handle things, to the decisions you make in a split-second, and then how you finish off the play.

To that extent, a guy like Joseph or Revis or whomever is a talent that is what you need at CB. KJ had no choice where he was chosen in the draft, but he was chosen in the first round and I'd assume he's fine with that selection spot too. I'm sure he desires to be in the same tier as the guys we're listing as being top-flight CBs.

So we need to get past the issues of "expectations" and talk about reality and where he is and where he probably wants to BE someday. Right now, the guy is splitting snaps at 50-50 with Jason Allen. And a guy who is splitting snaps with him has been in better positions AND made many more interceptions than KJ has.

I'm fine with praising the guy, and I have done so a lot. Great run support, great on the shallow stuff, seems to have a work ethic and blah blah blah. But I won't sit here and pile in with the crowd and say, "Man, he looks better than last year!" He does? Why? Because he's a part of the #1 defense? I need more than that.

Year 3 will be interesting. Do we keep the 50-50 split with KJ, or does Wade during off-season film review and during camps and preseason make KJ the full-blown CB2 or does Wade go with someone else entirely? Should be interesting. I'm always expecting the best out of KJ, though.

Im just saying that there are only a very few lockdown corners in the league period .....

Based upon his draft status we might expect more but what CB over the past 4 or 5 seasons has come in and lit it up from the get go ? Patrick Peterson might be the closest to that .... but much of his impact is on ST.

Seems to me corners get better with age and experience ..... until their wheels fail them.


Whats KJ's future ? Hell if I know ..... but teams outside of NO early in the season , and make no mistake about it , Brees picked him apart , havent been able to pick on him on a consistant basis .... he's definately had help over the top and from the pass rush.

Corrosion
12-05-2011, 02:02 PM
I don't think I agree with the title of the thread, for what that's worth.

I don't see it as ending an experiment. And I think this sort of label is unfair given the timing of how we're 9-3 and got 4 games to go in order to win or first AFC South Title in team history.

Honestly, I like the 50-50 split we're seeing. It's working. Let it continue to work, IMO. Then let's see what camp and preseason have to offer.

But until then, we just roll with what we got and talk about this in March or April when it's dead as hell in the NFL realm.

I think the expectations we had for KJ were unfair last season .... Its worked out this season but last year I put the heat on Rick Smith for not bringing in a vet presence on the back end ..... then again , there wasnt much available.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 02:46 PM
2. Why is it unfair to have CB1 expectations of him? Is it just because it's impossible to have TWO exceptional CBs on the field? Did I miss the NFL rule that says a team can only have ONE outstanding top-flight CB and the CB2 must be someone of lesser talent than the CB1???



It is not unfair to have CB1 expectations of KJac. It's unfair to expect him to be flawless at this point in his career.

thunderkyss
12-05-2011, 02:51 PM
Year 3 will be interesting. Do we keep the 50-50 split with KJ, or does Wade during off-season film review and during camps and preseason make KJ the full-blown CB2 or does Wade go with someone else entirely? Should be interesting. I'm always expecting the best out of KJ, though.

Based on your observation of the way he plays, do you think he's ready to be that guy?

TexansBull
12-05-2011, 03:14 PM
When Kareem falls down we can blame the turf at Reliant.

ThaJokaa
12-06-2011, 12:12 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/31463/texans-thought-jackson-was-at-his-best

KJ picture in the article shows he had an impact on Julio Jones dropping the ball. He contested the the ball

Rey
12-06-2011, 01:26 AM
Based on your observation of the way he plays, do you think he's ready to be that guy?

I'm not gp but I'd say no.

Hes getting there though.

Corrosion
12-06-2011, 01:33 AM
I'm not gp but I'd say no.

Hes getting there though.

He's made significant improvement since the start of the year ..... Remember how Brees targeted him over and over in the 4th quarter of that game , that hasnt happened since. Im sure a big portion of that is the pass rush but he's been better as well. (The only guy who wasnt fooled on the flea flicker???? REALLY ?!)


I dont think I want him taking 90% of the snaps yet ..... but if he continues as he has thus far , eventually he'll be that guy .... and Ive hated and ragged on him quite a bit.

badboy
12-06-2011, 10:41 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/31463/texans-thought-jackson-was-at-his-best

KJ picture in the article shows he had an impact on Julio Jones dropping the ball. He contested the the ball

Thanks for the article. I too had difficulty reading the play as it looked from one angle KJ got hand on ball, but on a subsequent view it seemed like Julio just dropped it. The picture in this article seems to show KJ touching ball. Either way it was good defense. I have found myself praising KJ last few games & then explaining myself to others watching with me as they don't know my history of critizing KJ.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the article. I too had difficulty reading the play as it looked from one angle KJ got hand on ball, but on a subsequent view it seemed like Julio just dropped it. The picture in this article seems to show KJ touching ball. Either way it was good defense. I have found myself praising KJ last few games & then explaining myself to others watching with me as they don't know my history of critizing KJ.

The picture in that article is from a different play.

TejasTom
12-06-2011, 11:23 AM
This is the last play of the game. KJ is clearly pulling on Jones left arm.

content.usatoday.com/topics/photo/organizations/sports+leagues/nfl/houston+texans/08Ki39T9Tu2eS/1

michaelm
12-06-2011, 12:03 PM
by the time Kjac finally starts pulling his arm down, the ball is already out of Julios hands. Jackson had bad coverage. 76 even if he had caught that ball you would still defend Jackson. When it comes to Kjac i listen to you about as much as a 16 year old listens to their parents.


Well, actually you are dead wrong, and here's why.

KJ had Jones left arm, and by the time the play had followed through, Jones left arm was being pulled away from his right arm.

SO, even if Jones had controlled the ball initially, KJ CLEARY pulled his arms apart, THEREFOR, Jones WOULD NOT have maintained control all the way through the play.

badboy
12-06-2011, 12:07 PM
The picture in that article is from a different play.Well, gee thanks, now I am back to "what really happened". lol

Vinnie
12-06-2011, 12:16 PM
Year 3 will be interesting. Do we keep the 50-50 split with KJ, or does Wade during off-season film review and during camps and preseason make KJ the full-blown CB2 or does Wade go with someone else entirely? Should be interesting. I'm always expecting the best out of KJ, though.

I'm all for doing whatever is working and if the 50-50 split is still working I say run with it. Unless, of course, there is some other factor that they can't like cap space or roster spots/greater need in other areas.

ThaJokaa
12-06-2011, 01:53 PM
Well, gee thanks, now I am back to "what really happened". lol

He just cant give credit to KJ when its due. its from the last play.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 03:25 PM
He just cant give credit to KJ when its due. its from the last play.

Do you know me? I'm KJ's biggest fan.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1205/nfl_u_jackson_ps_600.jpg

That picture is not from the last play, can't be. That's from the play Julio completed to get Atlanta to the 30 yard line.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Ki39T9Tu2eS/600x480.jpg?fit=scale&background=000000

That's from the last play.

buddyboy
12-06-2011, 03:40 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/31463/texans-thought-jackson-was-at-his-best

KJ picture in the article shows he had an impact on Julio Jones dropping the ball. He contested the the ball

Regardless of whether he got his hand on the ball or if he caused the incompletion, I find it funny that there is such a polar disagreement on KJ.

After the game, fans start discussions on whether it's time to give up on KJ because of his poor play.

Meanwhile, the Texans coaches decided to give him the game ball.

Now...who's opinion to put more weight in?:thinking:

GP
12-06-2011, 03:46 PM
I guess I'll just video the replay off my TV (I DVR'd the game).

I'll put it into iMovie and slow it down, and I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands. As to the comments, and the photo, that show KJ has a hand on Jones' left bicep and that KJ pulled or would have pulled Jones' hands apart...I just want you to remember these tidbits:

1. Jones is a much bigger guy than KJ.

2. KJ has only one hand on Jones' bicep, do you think that someone like Jones, who is already bigger than KJ to begin with, cannot use both of his own arms and overcome a one-arm pull by KJ?

3. It's my opinion that any separation of Jones' hands was due to Jones knowing he didn't control the point of contact he initially made with the ball. Had he locked his hands onto the ball at the point of impact, he probably squeezes his arms together and nullifies any pull that KJ could have put upon ONE of Jones' arms.

I'll be back later. Don't know how long it will take to do this, but I want to see if how I remember it is how it happened, or not. We'll see.

silvrhand
12-06-2011, 03:58 PM
I have to say one thing Matt Ryan put those balls in a really tight area where not a lot of people had a shot at it. Pretty stellar throws compared to his earlier attempts lol..

:lion:

buddyboy
12-06-2011, 03:59 PM
I guess I'll just video the replay off my TV (I DVR'd the game).

I'll put it into iMovie and slow it down, and I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands. As to the comments, and the photo, that show KJ has a hand on Jones' left bicep and that KJ pulled or would have pulled Jones' hands apart...I just want you to remember these tidbits:

1. Jones is a much bigger guy than KJ.

2. KJ has only one hand on Jones' bicep, do you think that someone like Jones, who is already bigger than KJ to begin with, cannot use both of his own arms and overcome a one-arm pull by KJ?

3. It's my opinion that any separation of Jones' hands was due to Jones knowing he didn't control the point of contact he initially made with the ball. Had he locked his hands onto the ball at the point of impact, he probably squeezes his arms together and nullifies any pull that KJ could have put upon ONE of Jones' arms.

I'll be back later. Don't know how long it will take to do this, but I want to see if how I remember it is how it happened, or not. We'll see.

So you think Kareem had no impact on the play.

Sometimes, getting a hand on the reciever's arm is all you can do as a DB, who, like you noted, is much bigger than you. The pass was high in the air where even Jones would have to make a spectacular play on it, and it was on the sideline side, away from KJ.

I agree KJ could have made a better play on it. I disagree he had no effect on the play. I disagree that he was "watching the play, like he was a paying customer". If KJ was tugging on the bicep, regardless of how strong you think Julio Jones is, he had an effect on the play.

infantrycak
12-06-2011, 04:04 PM
I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands.

Already before what? Jones initiates the entanglement by pushing off lightly with his left hand on KJ's chest number. This results in KJ's right arm being inside Jones' left arm as both go up to get the ball. KJ's arm was inside Jones' before the ball arrives.

GP
12-06-2011, 04:52 PM
Well, I'm having to download iMovie 11 because either the new hard drive Apple gave me was a pre-2011 model and had iMovie 10 on it, or my upgrade to Lion this week zapped iMovie 11. Whatever the cause, my $900 Sony HD Handycam won't connect to iMovie, so I suspect that previous iMovie versions can't read the camera.

But after watching the replay, and after recording it onto my Handycam and zooming into the replay aired by FOX right after the shot of Mike Smith on the sideline running his hands through his hair in frustration, Julio let the ball bounce of his hands and never even had his hands around it. And, it looks like although KJ had his hand on Jones' left bicep, it's cupped very loosely and he's not even pulling on it much at all.

All in all, everything is just about as I remember it.

It will take an hour or so for iMovie 11 to finish downloading, then I have to take it in there (hopefully I can even get the clip off the camera) and slow it down even more to show Jones never had the ball and KJ's powerful tug was not as powerful as we'd like to think.

Julio Jones dropped the ball and then tried to react and go back after it...but it was too late. Was KJ there? Yes. If Julio Jones catches that ball, does KJ's tug mean anything? I doubt it.

We got lucky, and I'll take lucky and run with it every time.

GP
12-06-2011, 04:59 PM
So you think Kareem had no impact on the play.

Sometimes, getting a hand on the reciever's arm is all you can do as a DB, who, like you noted, is much bigger than you. The pass was high in the air where even Jones would have to make a spectacular play on it, and it was on the sideline side, away from KJ.

I agree KJ could have made a better play on it. I disagree he had no effect on the play. I disagree that he was "watching the play, like he was a paying customer". If KJ was tugging on the bicep, regardless of how strong you think Julio Jones is, he had an effect on the play.

Correct. I think Kareem Jackson had zero impact on the play. Julio Jones had the impact on the play because Julio Jones dropped the pass and it was right on his hands. Julio Jones and Roddy White were dropping passes all day long, btw.

If it makes you feel better, I also think Joseph screwed up by getting too deep into the corner of the end zone on the previous play. Roddy White boxed him out, and it looked like Shaq boxing out Spud Webb. Had that pass been a yard shorter, or had Roddy White gone a yard deeper and pushed joseph back even further...that's a TD and there's not even a Julio Jones-Kareem Jackson showdown with 1 second on the clock.

I am only saying that this idea that KJ saved the day? False. He was there. He didn't impact the play. Did he get the game ball? Yes. Fine, whatever, give everybody a game ball, big deal. I'm talking about us, right here, discussing how much "impact" he had on that play. He didn't. Julio jumped, didn't even have to jockey for position in order to jump for it, and the ball Kah-Ping! bounces off his hands and because KJ's hand is cupped on Jones' bicep it has turned into "KJ helped seal the victory." It's false.

I've praised the guy plenty and I mean it sincerely when I do praise the guy. Others, though, seem bent on saying that he is DEFINITELY improving and that the detractors are just hating for the sake of hating. The guy is splitting reps 50-50, he's being marginalized for a reason.

michaelm
12-06-2011, 05:00 PM
Well, I'm having to download iMovie 11 because either the new hard drive Apple gave me was a pre-2011 model and had iMovie 10 on it, or my upgrade to Lion this week zapped iMovie 11. Whatever the cause, my $900 Sony HD Handycam won't connect to iMovie, so I suspect that previous iMovie versions can't read the camera.

But after watching the replay, and after recording it onto my Handycam and zooming into the replay aired by FOX right after the shot of Mike Smith on the sideline running his hands through his hair in frustration, Julio let the ball bounce of his hands and never even had his hands around it. And, it looks like although KJ had his hand on Jones' left bicep, it's cupped very loosely and he's not even pulling on it much at all.

All in all, everything is just about as I remember it.

It will take an hour or so for iMovie 11 to finish downloading, then I have to take it in there (hopefully I can even get the clip off the camera) and slow it down even more to show Jones never had the ball and KJ's powerful tug was not as powerful as we'd like to think.

Julio Jones dropped the ball and then tried to react and go back after it...but it was too late. Was KJ there? Yes. If Julio Jones catches that ball, does KJ's tug mean anything? I doubt it.

We got lucky, and I'll take lucky and run with it every time.


My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball.

foo82
12-06-2011, 05:04 PM
We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 05:09 PM
I guess I'll just video the replay off my TV (I DVR'd the game).

I'll put it into iMovie and slow it down, and I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands. As to the comments, and the photo, that show KJ has a hand on Jones' left bicep and that KJ pulled or would have pulled Jones' hands apart...I just want you to remember these tidbits:

1. Jones is a much bigger guy than KJ.

2. KJ has only one hand on Jones' bicep, do you think that someone like Jones, who is already bigger than KJ to begin with, cannot use both of his own arms and overcome a one-arm pull by KJ?

3. It's my opinion that any separation of Jones' hands was due to Jones knowing he didn't control the point of contact he initially made with the ball. Had he locked his hands onto the ball at the point of impact, he probably squeezes his arms together and nullifies any pull that KJ could have put upon ONE of Jones' arms.

I'll be back later. Don't know how long it will take to do this, but I want to see if how I remember it is how it happened, or not. We'll see.

While you're at it, capture a video clip of Andre on that 50 yard catch. He had a much smaller guy riding his biceps but managed to maintain control of the ball.

That's what a badass will do. That may be where Julio might be one day.

Whether Kj pulled his arms apart, or down too fast, or not at all doesn't matter. Had Kj not made contact & Julio didn't bring it in, we wouldn't be having this argument.

but since Kj's hand is clearly in there, we'll never know if Julio would have or not have caught the ball. So the point is moot.

Hey, did you watch the San Diego game? WRs from both teams made touchdowns, & there were CBs right there. It happens.

TNewman, got beat for a touchdown at one time or another. DRC, same thing. Other than PrimeTime, you can't name a CB that did not give up a touchdown at some point in his career. Especially not his second year.

GP
12-06-2011, 05:09 PM
My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball.

I wish you could see the zoomed-in version. You'd see Kareem's hand so loosely cupped it looks like he's doing it just for the sake of getting some balance and sticking closer to Jones.

You know when a receiver places a hand on the top of the defender's shoulder pad to steady himself to make the jump up toward the ball? To steady himself, plain and simple. If anything, KJ is just trying to hang there in the pocket with Jones. I'm telling you guys, KJ wasn't ripping the guy's arm. The ball Kah-Pings! right off Jones' hands and then you see Jones still trying to use his hands to follow the ball downward and track it down to catch it...but it ricocheted so quickly that he had no chance at getting it. It was the very definition of stone hands.

In fact, michaelm, the replay will show that KJ's "iron-grip hand" comes off of Jones' bicep so easily and so quickly, that I don't even think KJ was pulling all that hard if any at all. There was no follow-through when KJ's hand detaches from Jones' bicep.

It's plausible that KJ wasn't tugging very hard, in my estimation at least, because he didn't want to get flagged for interference. That's a micro-second of time that he has to to decide if he makes the tug or doesn't...and perhaps HAD he tugged too hard, the ref flags him and the Falcons get the ball 1st and goal at the 1. So, all in all it's good that it worked out like it did.

HOU-TEX
12-06-2011, 05:12 PM
We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.

:spit: That's about the jist of it. Didn't even need to read through the thread. Thanks, man.

+Rep

GP
12-06-2011, 05:17 PM
We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.

Edit.

michaelm
12-06-2011, 05:29 PM
I wish you could see the zoomed-in version. You'd see Kareem's hand so loosely cupped it looks like he's doing it just for the sake of getting some balance and sticking closer to Jones.

You know when a receiver places a hand on the top of the defender's shoulder pad to steady himself to make the jump up toward the ball? To steady himself, plain and simple. If anything, KJ is just trying to hang there in the pocket with Jones. I'm telling you guys, KJ wasn't ripping the guy's arm. The ball Kah-Pings! right off Jones' hands and then you see Jones still trying to use his hands to follow the ball downward and track it down to catch it...but it ricocheted so quickly that he had no chance at getting it. It was the very definition of stone hands.

In fact, michaelm, the replay will show that KJ's "iron-grip hand" comes off of Jones' bicep so easily and so quickly, that I don't even think KJ was pulling all that hard if any at all. There was no follow-through when KJ's hand detaches from Jones' bicep.

It's plausible that KJ wasn't tugging very hard, in my estimation at least, because he didn't want to get flagged for interference. That's a micro-second of time that he has to to decide if he makes the tug or doesn't...and perhaps HAD he tugged too hard, the ref flags him and the Falcons get the ball 1st and goal at the 1. So, all in all it's good that it worked out like it did.

I watched a zoomed in version here, at the 3:05 mark.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824bad22/Falcons-vs-Texans-highlights

I agree that KJ didn't rip Jones' arm down. far from it really, but it looks to me like he might have pulled enough to keep Jones from following through with his left hand.
Really, we're micro-analyzing this thing to an impossible level, though.
It's basically assumption on my part that KJ pulled hard enough to keep Jones from clasping his hands enough to make the catch. I feel like it is also an assumption to conclude the opposite.

disaacks3
12-06-2011, 05:41 PM
Already before what? Jones initiates the entanglement by pushing off lightly with his left hand on KJ's chest number. This results in KJ's right arm being inside Jones' left arm as both go up to get the ball. KJ's arm was inside Jones' before the ball arrives. Yep.

My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball. Agree.

I pulled up the DVR last night and ran that play back/forth on slow-mo (much to my wife's irritation) about 10 times. Anybody that says KJ didn't / couldn't have an effect on that play is dreaming. His arm COULD have ripped the ball away had it been necessary. Without interviewing Jones, who knows whether KJ's hand on his arm contributed to the non-catch.

KJ had a SOLID game, period.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 05:59 PM
Correct. I think Kareem Jackson had zero impact on the play. Julio Jones had the impact on the play because Julio Jones dropped the pass and it was right on his hands. Julio Jones and Roddy White were dropping passes all day long, btw.

If it makes you feel better, I also think Joseph screwed up by getting too deep into the corner of the end zone on the previous play. Roddy White boxed him out, and it looked like Shaq boxing out Spud Webb. Had that pass been a yard shorter, or had Roddy White gone a yard deeper and pushed joseph back even further...that's a TD and there's not even a Julio Jones-Kareem Jackson showdown with 1 second on the clock.

I am only saying that this idea that KJ saved the day? False. He was there. He didn't impact the play. Did he get the game ball? Yes. Fine, whatever, give everybody a game ball, big deal. I'm talking about us, right here, discussing how much "impact" he had on that play. He didn't. Julio jumped, didn't even have to jockey for position in order to jump for it, and the ball Kah-Ping! bounces off his hands and because KJ's hand is cupped on Jones' bicep it has turned into "KJ helped seal the victory." It's false.

I've praised the guy plenty and I mean it sincerely when I do praise the guy. Others, though, seem bent on saying that he is DEFINITELY improving and that the detractors are just hating for the sake of hating. The guy is splitting reps 50-50, he's being marginalized for a reason.

Had Kj not had any impact on the play, Julio would have had no reason to jump. Ryan wouldn't have had to throw it high. It would have been an easy pass & catch & we'd be talking about TJ Yates winning his first OT game.

Another thing, talking about how Kj is improving. It's been three weeks since anyone has said anything about Kj.... It took 3 weeks to pick on Kj. He hasn't been falling down, rookie WRs haven't been burning him. He hasn't been getting picked on.

& if you think about it, nobody is throwing his way.
.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 05:59 PM
I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!

TEXANRED
12-06-2011, 06:06 PM
KJ has played like a stud the second half of the season. I don't know what Wade is putting in their water but I like it.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 06:07 PM
KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.

Grover?

This isn't Sesame Street.
:kitten:

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 06:14 PM
Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Wade's happy with him... at least as half a starter

Kubiak is happy with Wade's decisions on defense

We are all happy with the results Wade's defense is producing

When do we end this thread??
:hides:

TEXANRED
12-06-2011, 06:27 PM
Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Wade's happy with him... at least as half a starter

Kubiak is happy with Wade's decisions on defense

We are all happy with the results Wade's defense is producing

When do we end this thread??
:hides:

when we win 7 in a row?

Rey
12-06-2011, 06:32 PM
Anybody trying to say that was great coverage by Kareem is wrong. Anyone saying he had 0 impact on the incompletion is wrong.

Jones probably should have made the catch. The ball hit him in the hands and if his name was jacoby instead of Julio we'd be talking about how he dropped a catchable pass.

Fact is, a lot of receivers make that catch anyways. But kj played a role in the incometion. He was not the sole cause of it, but he certainly helped.

I've seen receivers make catches under much tighter coverage. I've also seen receivers drop balls simply because of the presence of defenders.

The truth on why the play happened is somewhere in between. Pretty decent job by kjax not a great job by Julio.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 06:39 PM
I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!

Here's the whole sequence in low res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/

Here's the whole sequence in high res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/222/

Here are the 3 important pictures in the sequence:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/1.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/2.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/3.jpg

The 3 red lines are used to show the horizontal planes for references (using the top and bottom of Toro's number and the flap of the sport coat of the guy standing in the endzone.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 06:44 PM
Anybody trying to say that was great coverage by Kareem is wrong. Anyone saying he had 0 impact on the incompletion is wrong.

Jones probably should have made the catch. The ball hit him in the hands and if his name was jacoby instead of Julio we'd be talking about how he dropped a catchable pass.

Fact is, a lot of receivers make that catch anyways. But kj played a role in the incometion. He was not the sole cause of it, but he certainly helped.

I've seen receivers make catches under much tighter coverage. I've also seen receivers drop balls simply because of the presence of defenders.

The truth on why the play happened is somewhere in between. Pretty decent job by kjax not a great job by Julio.

Best post in the thread.

Lemme ask you this. Say you're a CB & you have to cover Julio Jones. Twice, you have him against the sideline.

Why do you go for the ball?

All you have to do, is push him out of bounds before he comes down.

They never would have gotten to the 30 yard line had Kj pushed Jones instead of going for the ball.

There would be no question of Kj's impact had he stayed on his feet & pushed Julio out of bounds.

I know that's not what they're thought, but with the rules we have now, If I think I'm close to the sideline, I'm going to push the guy out of bounds.

Rey
12-06-2011, 06:47 PM
Here's the whole sequence in low res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/

Here's the whole sequence in high res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/222/

Here are the 3 important pictures in the sequence:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/1.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/2.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/3.jpg

The 3 red lines are used to show the horizontal planes for references (using the top and bottom of Toro's number and the flap of the sport coat of the guy standing in the endzone.

I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

Kareem isn't trash, but he's not made of gold and platinum either.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 06:48 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Kareem_Jackson_-_Houston_Texans.jpg/260px-Kareem_Jackson_-_Houston_Texans.jpg

76Texan
12-06-2011, 06:53 PM
I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

If you look at Julio's elbows, you will see that his right elbow came down more than his left (due to Jackson's arm/wrist/hand).

When you try to grab a ball with both hands and a guy knocks one of your elbows, you will definitely lose balance of your grasp.

If you don't see that, there's no use talking! :fingergun:

Rey
12-06-2011, 06:56 PM
Best post in the thread.

Lemme ask you this. Say you're a CB & you have to cover Julio Jones. Twice, you have him against the sideline.

Why do you go for the ball?

All you have to do, is push him out of bounds before he comes down.

They never would have gotten to the 30 yard line had Kj pushed Jones instead of going for the ball.

There would be no question of Kj's impact had he stayed on his feet & pushed Julio out of bounds.

I know that's not what they're thought, but with the rules we have now, If I think I'm close to the sideline, I'm going to push the guy out of bounds.

With how close he was to the sideline I though that's what he'd try to do.

I just don't see how anyone can muster the energy to complain about Kareem on that play or especially in that game.

He made some errors but the guy had an int, a big hit and he was a factor in Julio dropping that pass.

I font care if it's scheme d line or whatever. Kareem and Allen have played better this year. I'd like to see Kareem go ahead and outright take that job though because Allen won't be here forever.

disaacks3
12-06-2011, 06:56 PM
I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

Kareem isn't trash, but he's not made of gold and platinum either. Once again, without interviewing Jones, how can you say he was/wasn't a "major factor"?

Rey
12-06-2011, 07:12 PM
If you look at Julio's elbows, you will see that his right elbow came down more than his left (due to Jackson's arm/wrist/hand).

When you try to grab a ball with both hands and a guy knocks one of your elbows, you will definitely lose balance of your grasp.

If you don't see that, there's no use talking! :fingergun:

Well then go ahead and stop talking because you are trying to give more credit than what's due while others aren't giving enough.

go look at a falcons board and convince those guys that their stud 1st round wr didn't drop a catchable ball.

Kj had a part in that, but it was still a drop at the end if the day.

If that was our first round pick at wr I'd have expected him to catch it despite the bump on the elbow.

Good job by kj doing as much as he could there and playing a role in the drop, but I think you are giving entirely too much credit. Jmo.

Rey
12-06-2011, 07:26 PM
Once again, without interviewing Jones, how can you say he was/wasn't a "major factor"?

Not sure why you put major factor in quotes as I didn't use those words. Hard to discuss imaginary points.

But I know football and have played a lot of football and I've seen lesser wide receivers make tougher catches under much more duress.

My first post in this thread I basically told Ellis that i thought he wasn't giving Kareem enough credit. Conversely I think some are reaching to give him more credit than he deserves.

Good play by Kareem. Really good game by him.

Not sure what your point is about interviewing jones because I guarantee he'd say he should have caught it. HE probably wouldn't give kareem as much credit as he deserves.


Be serious, do you really think a big time player like that is going to say Kareem did anything there to keep him from catching that ball when it hit him in his hands? Falcons fans would give him hell.

There was no major break up going on there, but he did enough to bother jones and we won. All this other stuff is foolishness.

GP
12-06-2011, 07:29 PM
I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!

With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.

I'm about to make the teacher the student here on this particular item.

I am about to prove to the jury that Julio Jones had the ball, and that KJ's hand was never (a) wrapped around a bicep, nor (b) pulling Julio's arm down, and (c) that KJ's arm remains in the same position and never moves down nor toward himself in a tugging motion.

In fact, in the slow-motion portion of my video analysis you can see that KJ's hand releases very easily. You can see a black space between KJ's hand and JJ's bicep...indicating that KJ had ZERO grip on the bicep.

KJ's hand was in there, but it played (drum roll, please....) NO part in Julio dropping the pass. He had dropped it almost as quickly as he had caught it. He snaps his own arms downward and cannot gather it in.

Video coming soon.

GP
12-06-2011, 07:30 PM
Link to video is here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmL68DwHA7M)

It might still be rendering, though.

badboy
12-06-2011, 07:34 PM
District attorneys dislike "eye witnesses". I know why.

fiasco west
12-06-2011, 07:40 PM
Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 07:49 PM
Link to video is here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmL68DwHA7M)

It might still be rendering, though.

LOL, I saw exactly what badboy said.
(I saw what I saw.)
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.

Even if Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, when he came down further, the ball will hit KJ's hand (with fingers already touching).

Will he be able to hang on to the ball after that?
I don't even want to discus, because it didn't get to that point.

GP
12-06-2011, 07:55 PM
LOL, I saw exactly what badboy said.
(I saw what I saw.)
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.

Even if Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, when he came down further, the ball will hit KJ's hand (with fingers already touching).

Will he be able to hang on to the ball after that?
I don't even want to discus, because it didn't get to that point.

The most KJ did was a tiny "pinch" of Julio's bicep at the very end of the play.

It's funny how Julio's arms are snapping downward very quickly, but when you look at the screenshots....KJ's right hand stays in the same position the whole way down. It never moves off a horizontal line.

This indicates, IMO, that Julio is snapping his own arms downward (because he bobbled the catch) and he's chasing it downward while KJ's right hand stays in the same place not even affecting the play. If he was tugging, KJ's hand would be moving downward WITH, or even ahead of, Julio's own arm.

KJ got his arm in there, it just didn't do anything that Julio's own problematic hands were doing on their own already.

As soon as that ball touches Julio's fingers on both hands, he's already dropping it. The rest is Julio chasing it downward and never catching up to it.

I'll be interested to see if this is what others see.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 07:59 PM
Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.

KJ continues to play more series and more snaps than Allen (about 14 more according to my count, including 2 (or 3) when they were on the field at the same time).

And again, Allen continues to receive more support overall (be it an extra rusher, underneath help (LB, safety) to tighten up the throwing window, or deep safety help.

Not on every single play, but if you look at all the snaps in all the games (against each different offensive personnel grouping), then you count the numbers of defenders on Allen's side (vs KJ).
Total up all the defenders on that side vs a particular offensive formation (personnel grouping) and divide by the number of snaps.
I GUARANTEE with you that Allen's number will be greater (ie., he has more help).

76Texan
12-06-2011, 08:03 PM
The most KJ did was a tiny "pinch" of Julio's bicep at the very end of the play.

It's funny how Julio's arms are snapping downward very quickly, but when you look at the screenshots....KJ's right hand stays in the same position the whole way down. It never moves off a horizontal line.

This indicates, IMO, that Julio is snapping his own arms downward (because he bobbled the catch) and he's chasing it downward while KJ's right hand stays in the same place not even affecting the play. If he was tugging, KJ's hand would be moving downward WITH, or even ahead of, Julio's own arm.

KJ got his arm in there, it just didn't do anything that Julio's own problematic hands were doing on their own already.

As soon as that ball touches Julio's fingers on both hands, he's already dropping it. The rest is Julio chasing it downward and never catching up to it.

I'll be interested to see if this is what others see.

Why would KJ want to move his arm in unison with Julio?
The idea here is to affect the ball and/or one of the receiver's arm to make it as difficult for him to hang on to the ball as possible.

You want to seperate the receiver's arms and/or get contact with the ball to increase the difficulty level of the catch for the receiver.

GP
12-06-2011, 08:06 PM
And again, Allen continues to receive more support overall (be it an extra rusher, underneath help (LB, safety) to tighten up the throwing window, or deep safety help.

Wow. You got a bad crush, 76. It's Bieber'esque.

You're going to sit here and say that Jason Allen is getting MORE help via lots of factors, and then you throw in some sort of mathematical equation of adding up players and formations and dividing it by number of snaps???????

It's "A Beautiful Mind" time around here, I suppose.

http://images1.variety.com/graphics/photos/_storypics/crowe_beautiful_mind.jpg

GlassHalfFull
12-06-2011, 08:06 PM
Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.


Good Luck, I am all for it.

I would love to end this thread and start something positive.

I do think the fact that he got the game ball should carry more weight than message board opinions.

ObsiWan
12-06-2011, 08:07 PM
That's IT!!
you two...
Pistols at dawn
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTL2HVPYNKVgNBU_Eb68wCLYgAMJ38up aBoKgzsMstQrgFY6dEQDA

GP
12-06-2011, 08:09 PM
Why would KJ want to move his arm in unison with Julio?
The idea here is to affect the ball and/or one of the receiver's arm to make it as difficult for him to hand on to the ball as possible.

You want to seperate the receiver's arms and/or get contact with the ball to increase the difficulty level of the catch for the receiver.

Julio got two hands on the ball, 76, but just as soon as he touches that ball...he's already goober-smooching it away with or without KJ's hand there!

This is the whole point: KJ did NOT, ultimately, cause Julio Jones to do what Julio Jones had already done to himself. The rest of it is a MOOT point, to try and predict if he would have retained possession or not.

The whole headline being propagated is that KJ saved the day. He didn't. Julio Jones did. And before him, Matt Ryan and Roddy White.

We can give credit to players when they actively AFFECT the play and stop something. We shouldn't be giving credit to them when the opponent does it to themselves.

LikeMike
12-06-2011, 08:10 PM
Alright I think we really are splitting hairs here - some are seeing a tiny motion by KJ that impacted the drop, the others are seeing KJ`s hand in there pulling after JJ drops the ball.

I think one thing is certain: without KJ right there, JJ makes the catch. Whether it is nerves, fear (KJ made a couple of big hits before) or KJ`s arm that caused the drop doesn`t really matter in the end.

It was a very catchable ball even with the things KJ did - if that was our JJ we would be on him as dropping another ball. BUT KJ did enough to make their JJ drop it. And in the end that`s all that matters.

Oh and by the way, JJ pushed off a little before he jumped - and personally I see KJ`s hand form into a firm grip the second JJ touches the ball. Not much of a pull, but he definetly did impact the play. Not a sensational play by KJ, probably not even a good but just a decent play - but he did get the job done and played a very good game before.

And one other thing is clear to me: if that was any other player than KJ we wouldn`t have this conversation. On Offense if we score because of a bad angle or bad coverage we wouldn`t have this kind of lengthy conversation. After last year KJ is still a person non grata to many fans and he plays under a microscope (as this thread shows) - and is often judged unfair. Let this kid develop and play.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 08:13 PM
Julio got two hands on the ball, 76, but just as soon as he touches that ball...he's already goober-smooching it away with or without KJ's hand there!

This is the whole point: KJ did NOT, ultimately, cause Julio Jones to do what Julio Jones had already done to himself. The rest of it is a MOOT point, to try and predict if he would have retained possession or not.

The whole headline being propagated is that KJ saved the day. He didn't. Julio Jones did. And before him, Matt Ryan and Roddy White.

We can give credit to players when they actively AFFECT the play and stop something. We shouldn't be giving credit to them when the opponent does it to themselves.

1. Let's say Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, there's nothing to indicate that he will be able to maintain possession of the ball throughout the catch as KJ's hand was in there.

2. It was not a catch as it was.

3. KJ got the game ball.

I WIN! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

GP
12-06-2011, 08:13 PM
You know, I sit here and put video AND photos together...showing that Kareem Jackson didn't affect the play...and it's deemed to be something we need to move on from, or that he got the game ball and that carries more weight?

OK. So much for objective analysis.

People also thought there should have been a penalty when the defender drove Yates into the ground. I can show video that displays Eric Winston missing the block completely and then catapulting the defender into Yates...effectively "blocking the defender" into Yates. But what would it be worth? It's easier to say "We got screwed on a non-call!" or "KJ was there and affected the play!"

Let's not discuss it. No, let's say what we feel and just roll with that. LOL.

TEXANRED
12-06-2011, 08:15 PM
We need a pissing contest smiley.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't we 3rd n pass defense?

GP
12-06-2011, 08:17 PM
1. Let's say Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, there's nothing to indicate that he will be able to maintain possession of the ball throughout the catch as KJ's hand was in there.

2. It was not a catch as it was.

3. KJ got the game ball.

I WIN! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Answers:

1. There's nothing that says he WON'T maintain possession and that he can't out-muscle a smaller Kareem Jackson who has only ONE HAND in there against another man's two arms. That's a poor argument, 76.

2. You're right, but you can't sit there and draw red lines and think that because Julio's elbow is lower than the other one that it means KJ was pulling that arm. Look at the FREAKING video in super slow-motion (the final slow motion clip) and you'll see it. The photos also show that KJ has no grip, is NOT pulling, and quite frankly his arm stays in the exact same position while Julio's arms snap downward CHASING THE BALL because he knew he screwed up at the beginning of the catch.

3. He got the game ball? Good for him. Now he should cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen. FTW.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 08:17 PM
With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.

I'm about to make the teacher the student here on this particular item.

I am about to prove to the jury that Julio Jones had the ball, and that KJ's hand was never (a) wrapped around a bicep, nor (b) pulling Julio's arm down, and (c) that KJ's arm remains in the same position and never moves down nor toward himself in a tugging motion.

In fact, in the slow-motion portion of my video analysis you can see that KJ's hand releases very easily. You can see a black space between KJ's hand and JJ's bicep...indicating that KJ had ZERO grip on the bicep.

KJ's hand was in there, but it played (drum roll, please....) NO part in Julio dropping the pass. He had dropped it almost as quickly as he had caught it. He snaps his own arms downward and cannot gather it in.

Video coming soon.

I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.

HJam72
12-06-2011, 08:19 PM
After looking at GP's pictures and stuff, I believe KJ jumped in the air, caught the ball, and tried to hand it to the receiver before his feet touched the ground, but the receiver dropped the hand-off. KJ deserves the game ball for not successfully handing it off. :) :wadepalm:

fiasco west
12-06-2011, 08:19 PM
You know, I sit here and put video AND photos together...showing that Kareem Jackson didn't affect the play...and it's deemed to be something we need to move on from, or that he got the game ball and that carries more weight?

OK. So much for objective analysis.

People also thought there should have been a penalty when the defender drove Yates into the ground. I can show video that displays Eric Winston missing the block completely and then catapulting the defender into Yates...effectively "blocking the defender" into Yates. But what would it be worth? It's easier to say "We got screwed on a non-call!" or "KJ was there and affected the play!"

Let's not discuss it. No, let's say what we feel and just roll with that. LOL.

The video is subjective. Some folks think his arm was knocked away and that was enough for Julio to drop the ball or some folks think otherwise.

You DO NOT know if KJ having his arm inside was enough for JJ to lose concentration. You simply do not know that, only Julio does and he would say he should have caught that because he's likely going to be a big time WR one day.

Also yes...him getting the game ball does carry more weight. It seems most on the team thinks he's playing well.

This all comes down to those against KJ not wanting to admit he's had a good game. Instead, focus on this one play and talk around the fact that KJ just had a good game.

Texn4life
12-06-2011, 08:21 PM
This thread reminds me of the "too high" scene from Major League. "Who gives a *bleep*, its gone!" Or something like that.

TEXANRED
12-06-2011, 08:21 PM
I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.

Exactly. He gets kicked around all the time and now he gets a win and people wanna take that away and discredit him.

Dude gotta win. Good for him and great for us.

drs23
12-06-2011, 08:23 PM
Sheesh people. Can we just agree to agree that the Texans aren't don't have the market cornered on "Stone Hands Jones"?

We have one.

The Birds have one.

Case f'kn closed.

That is all.

fiasco west
12-06-2011, 08:25 PM
I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.

And again...no one else was even around to make the play. I wish some would see that our hail mary defense didn't look so hot the last minute of that game instead of focusing on one player.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 08:26 PM
Answers:

1. There's nothing that says he WON'T maintain possession and that he can't out-muscle a smaller Kareem Jackson who has only ONE HAND in there against another man's two arms. That's a poor argument, 76.

2. You're right, but you can't sit there and draw red lines and think that because Julio's elbow is lower than the other one that it means KJ was pulling that arm. Look at the FREAKING video in super slow-motion (the final slow motion clip) and you'll see it. The photos also show that KJ has no grip, is NOT pulling, and quite frankly his arm stays in the exact same position while Julio's arms snap downward CHASING THE BALL because he knew he screwed up at the beginning of the catch.

3. He got the game ball? Good for him. Now he should cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen. FTW.

We have already disagree on how we saw things.

Let me just add this:

Both nlf.com and Stats, LLC. (which provides stats for ESPN) credited Jackson with a pass defended.
(I had provided NFL.com line in one of the previous post.)
Notice that White/JJo was not recorded.


Atl 2nd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the right intended for Roddy White.
Atl 3rd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the left intended for Julio Jones defensed by Kareem Jackson.

GP
12-06-2011, 08:26 PM
The video is subjective. Some folks think his arm was knocked away and that was enough for Julio to drop the ball or some folks think otherwise.

You DO NOT know if KJ having his arm inside was enough for JJ to lose concentration. You simply do not know that, only Julio does and he would say he should have caught that because he's likely going to be a big time WR one day.

Also yes...him getting the game ball does carry more weight. It seems most on the team thinks he's playing well.

This all comes down to those against KJ not wanting to admit he's had a good game. Instead, focus on this one play and talk around the fact that KJ just had a good game.

I never said he didn't have a good game. You're reading into things and putting words in my mouth.

I'm only talking about the last play, and have ONLY talked about the last play. Period.

It's like the whole "Is God Real?" debate. I believe in God, but am told that the burden of proof rests upon ME to prove God is real. Well, Julio Jones out and out DROPPED that pass and yet I'm supposed to prove that he could have maintained possession if he HAD caught it to begin with!

Like I said: He can give half of that game ball to the his co-worker.

It was a great gesture to give him the ball. Big whoop.

GP
12-06-2011, 08:28 PM
We have already disagree on how we saw things.

Let me just add this:

Both nlf.com and Stats, LLC. (which provides stats for ESPN) credited Jackson with a pass defended.
(I had provided NFL.com line in one of the previous post.)
Notice that White/JJo was not recorded.


Atl 2nd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the right intended for Roddy White.
Atl 3rd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the left intended for Julio Jones defensed by Kareem Jackson.

The refs credited Yates with a fumble that flew 10 yards FORWARD, too, but it doesn't mean that's what happened. Next? Geez, you're having fun with stats again, huh?

You're reaching as much as KJ did, and coming up with the same thing: Nothing. But you got to post it, so it MUST be true!

TEXANRED
12-06-2011, 08:30 PM
And again...no one else was even around to make the play. I wish some would see that our hail mary defense didn't look so hot the last minute of that game instead of focusing on one player.

Yeah! So when are we gonna end this Wade Phillips experiment?

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 08:32 PM
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.


76, do you think Kj could have played that better? Is there anything Kj could have done to prevent Julio from getting his hands on the ball at all?

With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.


GP, do you honestly think if Kj was not there at all.... say he fell down 4 yards outside the endzone, do you honestly think Julio would have dropped that ball?

Do you think Ryan would have thrown it high to begin with? Remember the Roddy White touchdown, would you have preferred Julio to run free in the endzone like that?

Wow. You got a bad crush, 76. It's Bieber'esque.

You're going to sit here and say that Jason Allen is getting MORE help via lots of factors, and then you throw in some sort of mathematical equation of adding up players and formations and dividing it by number of snaps???????

It's "A Beautiful Mind" time around here, I suppose.

http://images1.variety.com/graphics/photos/_storypics/crowe_beautiful_mind.jpg

Does anyone else see the irony here?

GP
12-06-2011, 08:32 PM
Everybody else: Just see the video for yourself.

And answer me this: In terms of THAT play, did KJ save the day or did Julio go butterfingers and KJ happened to be there?

It's a simple question. I know we live in a world where there are shades of gray. We can make things SEEM to be whatever we want them to be.

But on THAT play, how much is KJ affecting the play vs. how much did Julio Jones affect the play?

Link. To. Video. Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmL68DwHA7M)

OK, I'm going to watch Scrooge on ABC now. Seems fitting....:kitten:

76Texan
12-06-2011, 08:34 PM
And again...no one else was even around to make the play. I wish some would see that our hail mary defense didn't look so hot the last minute of that game instead of focusing on one player.

I agree.
Either 27 and/or 29 should have been a little closer to the play.

LikeMike
12-06-2011, 08:37 PM
If you ask me: 70% drop 30% KJ.

But tell me again: why exactly are we talking about that one play for 11 pages? The ball was not caught, 2 DBs were way out of position, KJ was a little out of position and at least got a hand on the receiver. JJ didn`t catch the ball - we won the game.

The title of this thread is "When do we end the Kareem experiment?" - implying we should cut or trade him. And I think the general consensus (here and by the media) is: KJ is playing pretty good right now. Yes he still does mistakes (as on the last play where he should`ve been much closer), but most of the time he plays at a high level.

Edit: By the way @GP I love your sig!

ThaJokaa
12-06-2011, 08:39 PM
If you ask me: 70% drop 30% KJ.

But tell me again: why exactly are we talking about that one play for 11 pages? The ball was not caught, 2 DBs were way out of position, KJ was a little out of position and at least got a hand on the receiver. JJ didn`t catch the ball - we won the game.

The title of this thread is "When do we end the Kareem experiment?" - implying we should cut or trade him. And I think the general consensus (here and by the media) is: KJ is playing pretty good right now. Yes he still does mistakes (as on the last play where he should`ve been much closer), but most of the time he plays at a high level.

Edit: By the way @GP I love your sig!

This

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 08:43 PM
You know, I sit here and put video AND photos together...showing that Kareem Jackson didn't affect the play...and it's deemed to be something we need to move on from, or that he got the game ball and that carries more weight?

OK. So much for objective analysis.

Let's not discuss it. No, let's say what we feel and just roll with that. LOL.

You're not listening. We are not seeing what you are seeing. Even with your video

fiasco west
12-06-2011, 08:43 PM
I never said he didn't have a good game. You're reading into things and putting words in my mouth.

I'm only talking about the last play, and have ONLY talked about the last play. Period.

It's like the whole "Is God Real?" debate. I believe in God, but am told that the burden of proof rests upon ME to prove God is real. Well, Julio Jones out and out DROPPED that pass and yet I'm supposed to prove that he could have maintained possession if he HAD caught it to begin with!

Like I said: He can give half of that game ball to the his co-worker.

It was a great gesture to give him the ball. Big whoop.

You never said he did either.

I don't even care about how much he affected, it's nearly impossible to tell. KJs hand IS there though and Julio DOES drop the ball. It is mind-reading to say Kareem had no affect.

If you are catching a ball and meanwhile as you are catching it someone's hand hits your bicep it is entirely possible that Julio panicked for a millisecond and didn't focus on catching the ball and lost grip of it before he knew it. These things happen so fast, slowing it down and watching it over and over still doesn't simulate what actually happened.

Usually when a player gets a game ball it's because they had a good game. We all know that.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 08:46 PM
76, do you think Kj could have played that better? Is there anything Kj could have done to prevent Julio from getting his hands on the ball at all?





Yes, but then again, the action on the field is pretty fast.

They both located the ball; they both got to their spot.
Julio got a hand on KJ's chest; he got the upperhand.
I would have liked for KJ to get a hand on Julio's chest instead.

As both were looking at the ball, the refs won't call those things.
I remember one play from last year (a divisional game) where the DB even pushed off Walter, but as he was looking back at the ball, the ref didn't call it.

I don't think KJ was in position to play the "pushing the receiver out of bound" card.
He did it before in this game, and in some other games (Dez Bryant came to mind).

Rey
12-06-2011, 08:56 PM
If you ask me: 70% drop 30% KJ.

But tell me again: why exactly are we talking about that one play for 11 pages? The ball was not caught, 2 DBs were way out of position, KJ was a little out of position and at least got a hand on the receiver. JJ didn`t catch the ball - we won the game.

The title of this thread is "When do we end the Kareem experiment?" - implying we should cut or trade him. And I think the general consensus (here and by the media) is: KJ is playing pretty good right now. Yes he still does mistakes (as on the last play where he should`ve been much closer), but most of the time he plays at a high level.

Edit: By the way @GP I love your sig!

That's about what I'd put it at. 70/30.

Not sure why folks can't see he could have (and probably expects to) catch that ball anyways had he not had stone hands all game long.

That said, the catch is a lot easier if kj isn't right there pestering him.

I really don't get the either or proposition in here.

Have you guys played football past middle school?

Any receiver worth their salt expects to make that catch and most big time players would. And those saying kj didn't effect the play are ridiculous.

You try catching a ball by yourself and the just put a chair close by and tell me if it's harder or easier.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 09:04 PM
Yes...


That's all I need to know, thank you.

76Texan
12-06-2011, 09:04 PM
The refs credited Yates with a fumble that flew 10 yards FORWARD, too, but it doesn't mean that's what happened. Next? Geez, you're having fun with stats again, huh?

You're reaching as much as KJ did, and coming up with the same thing: Nothing. But you got to post it, so it MUST be true!

NFL.com and Stats, LLC are two independent (and more or less official) sources.
The refs didn't tell them that KJ defended the pass.

That they agreed with the HC (who is another official source) tend to give more credibility.

And quit with that you post, I post stuff, LOL!
We went through this so many times before, there's no need to bring up that card.

Somebody wanted to discredit a player; I disagree so I want to present my point.
I never claim that because I post something that it must be TRUE.
Only those who disagree with me play that card (usually becaue they can't win the argument, LOL!)

PS - You like to use NOTHING and ZERO from time to time, but it was proven later that there was SOMETHING; I sincerely suggest that you refrain from that line. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

PockyAF
12-06-2011, 09:05 PM
1. Let's say Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, there's nothing to indicate that he will be able to maintain possession of the ball throughout the catch as KJ's hand was in there.

2. It was not a catch as it was.

3. KJ got the game ball.

I WIN! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Not a psychology major, but this part clearly indicates a flustered person who do not/cannot continue a debate, and most likely knows he and his trash image analysis and numbers are debunked, and therefore will declare himself the victor in hopes the big bad wolf will leave him alone with "his precious".. I believe I seen this displays before by an 8-year old.

Great video analysis GP.. and for those saying that they trust the game ball over outsiders opinions...I'm also pretty sure Frank Bush was given the game ball a couple times before... hmm, what ended up happening to him again?

For the record , I trust Lance Zierlien opinions over 76Texans and the game ball combined... also for the record, there's a reason why GP rep points are 4X as much as 76.. and it ain't just because of his post counts.

Clear indication of how deeply people here value your "opinion" and analysis, bro..

But then again, "you win". buhahaha

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 09:06 PM
That's about what I'd put it at. 70/30.


If we're looking at just the "drop" I can agree with that. Take Kj completely out of the picture & Matt Ryan putts it on a rope & it's a much easier catch. He's nowhere near the sideline, he doesn't have to jump, he doesn't have to worry about someone hitting him.

It's a much easier catch all together.

So I'd say 70% affected the play/30% drop....

76Texan
12-06-2011, 09:29 PM
Not a psychology major, but this part clearly indicates a flustered person who do not/cannot continue a debate, and most likely knows he and his trash image analysis and numbers are debunked, and therefore will declare himself the victor in hopes the big bad wolf will leave him alone with "his precious".. I believe I seen this displays before by an 8-year old.

Great video analysis GP.. and for those saying that they trust the game ball over outsiders opinions...I'm also pretty sure Frank Bush was given the game ball a couple times before... hmm, what ended up happening to him again?

For the record , I trust Lance Zierlien opinions over 76Texans and the game ball combined... also for the record, there's a reason why GP rep points are 4X as much as 76.. and it ain't just because of his post counts.

Clear indication of how deeply people here value your "opinion" and analysis, bro..

But then again, "you win". buhahaha

Fact: I'm still here to continue the debate!

Fact:
LanceZ's prediction:
Falcons – 21 Texans – 17

Rey
12-06-2011, 10:35 PM
If we're looking at just the "drop" I can agree with that. Take Kj completely out of the picture & Matt Ryan putts it on a rope & it's a much easier catch. He's nowhere near the sideline, he doesn't have to jump, he doesn't have to worry about someone hitting him.

It's a much easier catch all together.

So I'd say 70% affected the play/30% drop....

I can't go that far. Just being on the field and in the vicinity doesn't get any extra points from me on a hail Mary.

Let's not forget that this was a hail Mary pass. Just a straight vertical. Everyone knows what's coming. John McClain could have just laid down back there and took up space and made it a "harder catch".

Look, Kareem did enough because he dropped the ball. But if you ask me if I'd be ok with Kareem doing that every time there was a hail mary in the ez I'd say no, I'd probably like to see him do a little more to ensure there was no chance at a catch. Put a body on the guy, grab both arms, you be the one to actually get both hands on the ball, atleast get one hand on the ball.

Ball hit the receiver in both of his hands. Pulling on an arm is great when you aren't close enough to affect the play in any other substantial way, but that isnt ideal.

GlassHalfFull
12-06-2011, 10:37 PM
Let's not forget that this was a hail Mary pass. Just a straight vertical. Everyone knows what's coming. John McClain could have just laid down back there and took up space and made it a "harder catch".



Can we all agree that John McClain would have taken up at least 70% more space?

buddyboy
12-06-2011, 10:38 PM
I never said he didn't have a good game. You're reading into things and putting words in my mouth.


Earlier in the thread, on the game ball being given to Kareem, you say he should "cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen", which obviously says you don't believe he deserved it. You have gone on and on this subject of Kareem not actually being part of the number 1 defense, that they've done it in spite of him.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 10:45 PM
I can't go that far. Just being on the field and in the vicinity doesn't get any extra points from me on a hail Mary.


Demps & Quin are in the vicinity.

I agree that he should not have given up his position, I agree he should have gone up & got his hands on the ball, I agree it should have been better defended.

But to act like Julio would have dropped the ball if KJ sat & watched is silly, which is what's being argued.

Texn4life
12-06-2011, 10:45 PM
I love when people bring up rep points on here.

thunderkyss
12-06-2011, 10:47 PM
I love when people bring up rep points on here.

What do you know? You've got like 342 rep points.

Texn4life
12-06-2011, 10:56 PM
What do you know? You've got like 342 rep points.

Yeah, my football knowledge sucks though. :fingergun:

TejasTom
12-06-2011, 11:14 PM
http://www.flix66.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Peabody-and-Sherman.jpg

Sherman Set the WABAC Machine for Dec. 4, 2011 with 0:01 second left in the Texans - Falcons game. We will need to be in the north end zone on the west side. We need to keep Kareem Jackson from touching Julio Jones so we can determine if Kareem affected the play.



A bird in the hand is worth a win on Sunday.

Rey
12-06-2011, 11:38 PM
I'm rewatching the game and Julio actually made a tougher catch in the falcons second to last drive. The one where Allen was covering him. He came down out of bounds because of tremendous coverage by Allen. He was all over Julio and he still made great catch. Luckily for us Allen had him so close to the sideline he landed out of bounds.

It's also funny because had Allen not gotten hurt on that last drive Kareem likely isn't in.

Rey
12-06-2011, 11:46 PM
Julio just made the catch that put them on the 25 and in position to throw the hail Mary over kjax. Sick catch. Kareem was right there but Julio is just bigger and soared over him.

Rey
12-06-2011, 11:48 PM
Ok, Julio makes another catch with Kareem all over him at about the 10 but it is called back because Julio stepped out of bounds. But they are either targeting Kareem or they are in love with Julio or they are scared of jo.

RTP2110
12-07-2011, 12:01 AM
I don't want to debate anyone but I will add my opinion. I don't think Jackson had much to do with the incompletion. When I watch GP's video I see two things, first Jones catches the end of the ball. His hands are on the front third, and not around the middle of the ball. This is why he has a grip on it at first, but loses it as his hands bring the ball downward. Second, watch the video and look at nothing but Jones' left arm. I don't see any evidence that his arm is hampered or impeded by any outside force. Jackson's arm is wedged between Jones' arm and chest, but I never see Jones' arm pulled or affected at all. And I don't think Jackson made the catch any harder, this is the NFL, 99.9% of the catches are closely contested.

Again, its just my opinion. I'm not roasting KJ, just commenting on the last play. I'm not trying to debate. If you disagree, that's perfectly fine and I have no problem with that.

Rey
12-07-2011, 12:06 AM
And finally the last play.

Whoever said glover and demps should have done more are incorrect. Gq came from almost the middle of the field. Demps probably could have done more but he risked getting a pi call. He couldn't have done a whole lot either.

Kareem was in the best position to defend the play and after watching it I'm less impressed with what he did.

He looked up, located the ball and failed to put his body in between the receiver and the ball. Maybe he was afraid of pi, or maybe he was intimidated by the fact that Julio had made some nice plays on him on that drive and a couple earlier in the game but in all honestly that's a catch Julio should have made.

Now you can disagree with that if you want, but I had to look again for myself and I think anyone saying Kareem is mostly the reason for the drop is incorrect.

It's funny because none of the guys around the play really celebrated or congratulated Kareem. They all looked like they had just seen a ghost.

Probably thanking their lucky stars that he dropped the ball.

Rey
12-07-2011, 12:14 AM
I'm going to chalk it up to the level of qb and receiver we went against but Kareem gave up more plays down the field than both Allen and Joseph combined.

The out and up, the fade route and then on the last drive when Allen got hurt every pass that was actually caught or had a chance at being caught was against Kareem.

Kareem is getting better, but Allen still covers down the field better.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 12:28 AM
I'm rewatching the game and Julio actually made a tougher catch in the falcons second to last drive. The one where Allen was covering him. He came down out of bounds because of tremendous coverage by Allen. He was all over Julio and he still made great catch. Luckily for us Allen had him so close to the sideline he landed out of bounds.

It's also funny because had Allen not gotten hurt on that last drive Kareem likely isn't in.


I had prepared (even before you post about this play) to comment, but I never did for the simple reason I've been sticking to (not to tear down the guy).

I don't like the way he got himself hurt though.
And I would just leave it at that, for the same reason!

TejasTom
12-07-2011, 12:30 AM
... They all looked like they had just seen a ghost.

The ghost of Jaguars' games past.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 12:41 AM
Julio just made the catch that put them on the 25 and in position to throw the hail Mary over kjax. Sick catch. Kareem was right there but Julio is just bigger and soared over him.

Prevent defense 4 deep, 3 underneath, rushing 4.
Cushing probably should get back deeper (at least 12 yards) to tighten the window.
He can always react to the RB (who stayed back and blocked along with the TE - Quin guarding the inside underneath zone.)

76Texan
12-07-2011, 12:46 AM
Ok, Julio makes another catch with Kareem all over him at about the 10 but it is called back because Julio stepped out of bounds. But they are either targeting Kareem or they are in love with Julio or they are scared of jo.

You are crazy, Rey, sorry!

That one will never result in a catch!

:wadepalm::wadepalm::wadepalm::wadepalm::wadepalm: :wadepalm

Rey
12-07-2011, 12:50 AM
I had prepared (even before you post about this play) to comment, but I never did for the simple reason I've been sticking to (not to tear down the guy).

I don't like the way he got himself hurt though.
And I would just leave it at that, for the same reason!

Why would you tear down any body?

It's ok to give honest criticism, but o have honestly never heard you give a negative criticism of Kareem and even when Allen makes a play you act like it's no big deal.

News flash, he's better than Kareem at covering down the field.

You like to talk about trusting the coaches and there is a reason he saw a lot of time against that team and there is a reason he was in on those last two series and not kareem. .… well before he got hurt.

Ive asked you to do this before but maybe I'm writing in hieroglyphics when I think I'm writing in English, but it'd be nice if you actually gave objective analysis.

The fact that you are fighting back the urge to "tear" down Allen for the hit (yes he lowered his head; bad move) that injured him is kind of strange to me when you havent said a peep about the excellent coverage that he had on Julio the drive before while Kareem was getting caught all over as soon as he came in.

Both players have their warts, both players have things that they do better than the other one.

Not sure why you struggle to come to grips with that.

Rey
12-07-2011, 12:55 AM
You are crazy, Rey, sorry!

That one will never result in a catch!

:wadepalm::wadepalm::wadepalm::wadepalm::wadepalm: :wadepalm

What?

It wasn't a statistical catch, but he caught the ball. The point is that he's catching the ball and Kareem is smothering him and is in pretty good position.

I think Every pass that was actually a statistical catch for Julio came against Kareem though.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 12:57 AM
And finally the last play.

Whoever said glover and demps should have done more are incorrect. Gq came from almost the middle of the field. Demps probably could have done more but he risked getting a pi call. He couldn't have done a whole lot either.



Another prevent defense, either 5 deep 2 underneath or 4 deep 3 underneath, but this one is deeper.
Two receivers on the other side with 4 guys covering.
One lone receiver on this side.
Whatever the defense call was, either Quin or Demps (most likely Demps) has to head straight to the receiver, no question asked!

Rey
12-07-2011, 01:01 AM
Another prevent defense, either 5 deep 2 underneath or 4 deep 3 underneath, but this one is deeper.
Two receivers on the other side with 4 guys covering.
One lone receiver on this side.
Whatever the defense call was, either Quin or Demps (most likely Demps) has to head straight to the receiver, no question asked!

76, you don't know what they are taught to do. I don't take these kind of posts seriously and never will.

Ive been around too much football.

You can get all these other folks buying this stuff, but I know better. Try again.

You dont head straight for a receiver when you are in a deep zone. That makes 0 sense. Otherwise you might as well say you are doubling the receiver. . .which he wasn't.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:03 AM
What?

It wasn't a statistical catch, but he caught the ball. The point is that he's catching the ball and Kareem is smothering him and is in pretty good position.

I think Every pass that was actually a statistical catch for Julio came against Kareem though.

1. A ball caught by a receiver who went out of bound is called an incompletion!
2. The DB was in good position; even as the receiver catches the ball and got pushed out of bound without both feet inbound (and Julio had neither foot inbound), it is still an incompletion!

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:07 AM
76, you don't know what they are taught to do. I don't take these kind of posts seriously and never will.

Ive been around too much football.

You can get all these other folks buying this stuff, but I know better. Try again.

You dont head straight for a receiver when you are in a deep zone. That makes 0 sense. Otherwise you might as well say you are doubling the receiver. . .which he wasn't.

Amazing!
In a 5-deep and you want to tell me that the right-inside deep back stay frozen on 3 verticals, with only one coming his way!

I believe you play on the line, am I correct?

Rey
12-07-2011, 01:08 AM
1. A ball caught by a receiver who went out of bound is called an incompletion!
2. The DB was in good position; even as the receiver catches the ball and got pushed out of bound without both feet inbound (and Julio had neither foot inbound), it is still an incompletion!

Try to follow along.

I mentioned that play to show that Julio was capable of catching a ball even with tight coverage around him.

You are not even thinking before you respond. You are just in defend Kareem mode like a mother bear defending her cubs. Dude take a step back, breath.

I wasn't even criticizing kjax there and even used the word "smothering" to describe his coverage.

Rey
12-07-2011, 01:21 AM
Amazing!
In a 5-deep and you want to tell me that the right-inside deep back stay frozen on 3 verticals, with only one coming his way!

I believe you play on the line, am I correct?

Frozen? Who said anything about frozen?

Just in case you didn't know the safety has to honor the fact that one if those verticals can actually turn into a post. He cannot "head straight to the receiver" as you said. That doesn't make any sense at all.

If that is the case then he is just doubling the receiver and that's not what happened.

He cannot head straight to the receiver and then one of the receivers on the other side of the field heads towards the middle and now you have one on one coverage.

Like I said, you can preach this stuff to some people but I know better. Me playing on the line has nothing to do with anything. I was in all kind of meeting rooms at some point. I've played scout team and heard defensive coaches coaching. I've been in special team meeting rooms and offensive meeting rooms.

I've heard the qb coach talking to the qb telling him what to look for.

You know, you just pick up on stuff after being around so long. And I can tell that most of the stuff you preach is stuff you read somewhere and interpreted for yourself and not stuff you have learned from experience. It's cookie cutter, often doesn't make sense and doesn't take live football into the equation.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:27 AM
I'm rewatching the game and Julio actually made a tougher catch in the falcons second to last drive. The one where Allen was covering him. He came down out of bounds because of tremendous coverage by Allen. He was all over Julio and he still made great catch. Luckily for us Allen had him so close to the sideline he landed out of bounds. It's also funny because had Allen not gotten hurt on that last drive Kareem likely isn't in.

Ok, Julio makes another catch with Kareem all over him at about the 10 but it is called back because Julio stepped out of bounds. But they are either targeting Kareem or they are in love with Julio or they are scared of jo.

The first one was closer to being a catch but you gave plenty of credit to Allen.
The second is never going to be a catch (even if Julio didn't step out of bound) and you have to add "they are either targeting Kareem".
It was good coverage by both, but you touted one and downplayed the other (by sidetracking).

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:29 AM
Frozen? Who said anything about frozen?

Just in case you didn't know the safety has to honor the fact that one if those verticals can actually turn into a post. He cannot "head straight to the receiver" as you said. That doesn't make any sense at all.

If that is the case then he is just doubling the receiver and that's not what happened.

He cannot head straight to the receiver and then one of the receivers on the other side of the field heads towards the middle and now you have one on one coverage.

Like I said, you can preach this stuff to some people but I know better. Me playing on the line has nothing to do with anything. I was in all kind of meeting rooms at some point. I've played scout team and heard defensive coaches coaching. I've been in special team meeting rooms and offensive meeting rooms.

I've heard the qb coach talking to the qb telling him what to look for.

You know, you just pick up on stuff after being around so long. And I can tell that most of the stuff you preach is stuff you read somewhere and interpreted for yourself and not stuff you have learned from experience. It's cookie cutter, often doesn't make sense and doesn't take live football into the equation.In a 5-deep, the middle DB will pick up the post route from the other side.
Demps has nothing to do with it!

Rey
12-07-2011, 01:40 AM
The first one was closer to being a catch but you gave plenty of credit to Allen.
The second is never going to be a catch (even if Julio didn't step out of bound) and you have to add "they are either targeting Kareem".
It was good coverage by both, but you touted one and downplayed the other (by sidetracking).

I didn't downplay Kareem.

Not sure how you mistake "kareem was smothering him and was in pretty good position" as down playing it.

And you are making my point for me. The catch Allen defended against actually had a chance of being a long completion for a td. It was just a straight go route.

The one to Kareem was a half hearted out and up that just looked like improvisation by Julio on a busted play.

It had no chance of being a completion because Julio ran himself out of bounds whereas Allen forced him to the sideline on his defended pass.

Go back and listen to the announcers talk about Allen using the sideline as his friend.

And you're still missing the point. I wasn't even comparing the two of them on that play. I was pointing out that Julio is capable of making catches with defenders all over him. But somehow you seem to be conveniently ignoring that point along with the fact that the coaches trusted Allen to be in the game more in that situation. So much, that they had him in there for the last two defensive series over kj.

Rey
12-07-2011, 01:46 AM
In a 5-deep, the middle DB will pick up the post route from the other side.
Demps has nothing to do with it!

Yes he would have had the ball been thrown in his zone to a receiver coming from the other side of the field.

You act like receivers run routes and just stop where their route is supposed to end. Lots of times receivers will run through multiple zones. Especially if the qb has time to scramble and buy extra time. That is why he cannot immediately abandon his responsibility. It's easy to say in hindsight but at the time he doesn't know what's coming. He doesn't know when Ryan is going to throw the ball. He doesn't know where it will be thrown to.

You cannot just look at the formation and say "run straight to that receiver". Again, that makes absolutely no sense. Those receivers could end up anywhere.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:56 AM
The out and up, the fade route and then on the last drive when Allen got hurt every pass that was actually caught or had a chance at being caught was against Kareem.



So you call a 26-yd wheel route and a 20-yd into the zone a bad day vs. the good plays he made?
And let me remind you that on the last drive, there were 3 passes thrown his way, including that 20-yd pass into the zone.
The other two were incomplettions, one with perfect coverage by Jackson and the other is a game-changer (whatever percentage you want to credit him for on the last play.)
If he bombed, they tied the game.

He didn't, and we won!
And here you give me this sheete!

76Texan
12-07-2011, 02:02 AM
Yes he would have had the ball been thrown in his zone to a receiver coming from the other side of the field.

You act like receivers run routes and just stop where their route is supposed to end. Lots of times receivers will run through multiple zones. Especially if the qb has time to scramble and buy extra time. That is why he cannot immediately abandon his responsibility. It's easy to say in hindsight but at the time he doesn't know what's coming. He doesn't know when Ryan is going to throw the ball. He doesn't know where it will be thrown to.

You cannot just look at the formation and say "run straight to that receiver". Again, that makes absolutely no sense. Those receivers could end up anywhere.

I have no idea what yor talking about.

The inside receiver from the other side (the only one who can threaten a post route) was double teamed (basically) by the deep left DB and the underneath defender; then there was the middle safety.

Demps has nothing to do with it at any given moment of the play!

Rey
12-07-2011, 02:05 AM
So you call a 26-yd wheel route and a 20-yd into the zone a bad day vs. the good plays he made?
And let me remind you that on the last drive, there were 3 passes thrown his way, including that 20-yd pass into the zone.
The other two were incomplettions, one with perfect coverage by Jackson and the other is a game-changer (whatever percentage you want to credit him for on the last play.)
If he bombed, they tied the game.

He didn't, and we won!
And here you give me this sheete!

Please show me where I said he had a bad day.

And I said that they were passing his way quite a bit on that last drive. I said either they were targeting him, really like Julio or were afraid of Joseph. Or maybe some combo of the three.

That said, on the td drive they had Julio beat Kareem to set them up down at the goal line.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in think all of Julio's completions came against Kareem. That's through out the game, not just on the last drive.

And yes I said they may have been targeting Kareem on that last drive. Please forgive me in advance.

Rey
12-07-2011, 02:06 AM
I have no idea what yor talking about.


I know.

GP
12-07-2011, 02:06 AM
Earlier in the thread, on the game ball being given to Kareem, you say he should "cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen", which obviously says you don't believe he deserved it. You have gone on and on this subject of Kareem not actually being part of the number 1 defense, that they've done it in spite of him.

No, I said that to show 76 how absurd his statement was. He was trying to use that as some sort of trump card that was supposed to be a nail in the coffin of my position on THIS ISSUE.

Plus, I've seen what I can only assume is some Alabama fans on here getting butt hurt whenever #25 is held accountable to his mistakes. I can't otherwise begin to understand the sharp replies about a guy none of you have met but surely have seen play on Sundays. He's not special, yet, and the jury is still out on the issue of his improvement form last year to this year...give me a full season of the guy NOT splitting time at CB2 before you and 76 try to string me up on "hater" charges, please.

By the way, big damn deal if he got a game ball.

If I wanted to really rub 76's face in his little distraction excursion, I could have said this instead:

Little kids who attend a friend's birthday end up going home with a goodie bag too. What did the kids do to get gifts tossed right back at them on their way out the door? Nothing much, really. They brought a gift for the birthday boy and someone somewhere started this tradition of making the non-birthday kids feel almost as special as the birthday boy. Result: "Hey, it's ok Tommy! I know it sucked watching the birthday boy get all those cool gifts...so we put together a plastic baggie that has silly puddy, some bubble gum, and a kazoo in it. See? You got something too!"

But I didn't say that. I would never say that. I think the car pooling system he and Jason Allen are a part of is speaking for itself, and the video shows that we can slow down on any talk of KJ saving the day by pulling Julio Jones' arm down on the last play. It's a phantom existence. He wasn't bad, he's playing decent, but the deep stuff is still tricky for him and that's where a team with a good QB (Saints, for example) will make their hay on us.

At this point, I think we've got around 3 or 4 other secondary players who could play CB2 as good as (or even better than) Kareem Jackson. Credit the Texans for being patient and at least trying to bring the guy along...but that doesn't mean he gets goodie bags when it isn't his birthday to begin with. There, I said it.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 02:09 AM
I didn't downplay Kareem.

Not sure how you mistake "kareem was smothering him and was in pretty good position" as down playing it.

And you are making my point for me. The catch Allen defended against actually had a chance of being a long completion for a td. It was just a straight go route.

The one to Kareem was a half hearted out and up that just looked like improvisation by Julio on a busted play.

It had no chance of being a completion because Julio ran himself out of bounds whereas Allen forced him to the sideline on his defended pass.

Go back and listen to the announcers talk about Allen using the sideline as his friend.

And you're still missing the point. I wasn't even comparing the two of them on that play. I was pointing out that Julio is capable of making catches with defenders all over him. But somehow you seem to be conveniently ignoring that point along with the fact that the coaches trusted Allen to be in the game more in that situation. So much, that they had him in there for the last two defensive series over kj.Trust me, I do not miss any of your point; it is your hidden agenda that I'm pointing out! :)

Jackson played the first 2 series in the first half (4 plays).
Allen then played the next 2 series (8 plays).
Jaclson the played the next 2 series (13 plays).
Allen played the last series of the half (3 plays)

Jackson then played the first 2 series of the second half (19 plays)
Allen played the third series (12 plays).
On the last drive, Allen was hurt during the first play, Jackson played the last 7 snaps.

Somewhere during the game, Allen was inserted in for a couple of plays (while Jackson was also in there) after McCain whiffed on a play.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 02:27 AM
Please show me where I said he had a bad day.

And I said that they were passing his way quite a bit on that last drive. I said either they were targeting him, really like Julio or were afraid of Joseph. Or maybe some combo of the three.

That said, on the td drive they had Julio beat Kareem to set them up down at the goal line.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in think all of Julio's completions came against Kareem. That's through out the game, not just on the last drive.

And yes I said they may have been targeting Kareem on that last drive. Please forgive me in advance.

And the results?