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GP
12-07-2011, 01:28 AM
Please show me where I said he had a bad day.

And I said that they were passing his way quite a bit on that last drive. I said either they were targeting him, really like Julio or were afraid of Joseph. Or maybe some combo of the three.

That said, on the td drive they had Julio beat Kareem to set them up down at the goal line.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in think all of Julio's completions came against Kareem. That's through out the game, not just on the last drive.

And yes I said they may have been targeting Kareem on that last drive. Please forgive me in advance.

You get lumped into the hater crowd because you're not 100% supportive of his position right from the get-go. You didn't commit one way or another, or at least not as loud and proud as he wanted you (and others) to do...so you earned your scorn by default.

That's what is so irritating. 76 can show 1,245 screen shots and I do ONE video and all hell breaks loose. The teacher couldn't handle being the pupil, which I figured would end up happening. It's not every day someone else comes in and takes what 76 does and quadruples its intended effect upon the masses here.

Obviously, I touched a nerve with him and what I am beginning to assume are other 'Bama fans who are not pleased with my critique of one of their guys.

We saw this with the I Love David Carr crowd, of which I was a member of until one day I noticed I was wearing the same "I Love David Carr" shirt as his family was wearing. Since then, I've learned to be a lot more OBJECTIVE about the Texans players.

It's possible that a 1st round draft pick is going to struggle. We've seen it with David Carr, Travis Johnson, and Amobi Okoye. What is telling, however, is that only NOW do you see Gary Kubiak abandoning the concept of a 1st rounder being given the starting role no matter what the 1st rounder's play looks like. Kareem is the first guy who is being held back for Remedial NFL Starter class by Kubiak.

Finally, the guy gets it. In a true Do or Die year, Gary Kubiak and Wade Phillips have understood that a guy like Kareem needs to get some clarity and just watch every now and then...not sat out completely, just in and out of the lineup and not made to be the hero all day long. But alas, this last paragraph will be ignored and only my stinging comments will be quoted and used against me.

I'm sure Kareem and his teammates were proud of him for hanging in there and not panicking. He got the game ball, and I nor anybody is going to take it away from him. Sometimes, a guy needs some public acknowledgment like that in order to take a bigger step up the ladder. It's a motivator, and he played decent that game with a pick and he got to his man on the last play.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:30 AM
I know.

You must also know that I meant the same thing, LOL!

GP
12-07-2011, 01:33 AM
Trust me, I do not miss any of your point; it is your hidden agenda that I'm pointing out! :)

Jackson played the first 2 series in the first half (4 plays).
Allen then played the next 2 series (8 plays).
Jaclson the played the next 2 series (13 plays).
Allen played the last series of the half (3 plays)

Jackson then played the first 2 series of the second half (19 plays)
Allen played the third series (12 plays).
On the last drive, Allen was hurt during the first play, Jackson played the last 7 snaps.

Somewhere during the game, Allen was inserted in for a couple of plays (while Jackson was also in there) after McCain whiffed on a play.

He has no hidden agenda. I have known rey for YEARS here, and I can tell you this about him: The guy will not agree with a person JUST to get along. He might like you and what you have to say on Topic A...but then he will just as readily argue with you about your take on Topic Z. Some people tend to align themselves with others and adopt the other person's stance on almost everything, and I haven't noticed rey doing that. He's not agenda-driven, IMO.

Me thinks you are projecting things onto rey that describe you instead.

Rey drifts in and out of conversations and actually seems to rarely have "a dog" in any fight on here. One of the more objective guys on this board, tbh.

Carry on, though.

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:36 AM
GP, stop putting words into my mouth please!

I have no problem with your vid nor other posters' vids and screen shots.
I go through them all as time allows.

So far I'm still on point.
What I said is that I like to see both Allen and Jackson competing for the job, may the best man win.

The best guy is starting and play more.

I don't care who the haters are.

All I know is that those who said Allen would be the starting CB have yet to be proven correct!

GP
12-07-2011, 01:47 AM
GP, stop putting words into my mouth please!

I have no problem with your vid nor other posters' vids and screen shots.
I go through them all as time allows.

So far I'm still on point.
What I said is that I like to see both Allen and Jackson competing for the job, may the best man win.

The best guy is starting and play more.

I don't care who the haters are.

All I know is that those who said Allen would be the starting CB have yet to be proven correct!

The last three sentences prove it, 76.

1. "The best guy is starting"....Yet he doesn't play anymore than roughly half the snaps as his underling Jason Allen does.

2. You don't care who the haters are, but you attack them anyways and play all sorts of trump cards and trash talk those who aren't on board with "the best guy who is starting."

3. The "Nanny-Nanny-Boo-Boo!" final sentence is the death knell. If this were a mission on L.A. Noire, your interrogation would have been the first mission where the gamer is led through a tutorial to tell how to judge a witness's testimony.

I had a friend like this back in junior high, 76. He thought The Bash Brothers were gods on earth, and nobody dared to debate him on the matter. And if you did, you got "Nanny-Nanny-Boo-Boo!" treatment just like what you're doing.

I'm done (and the crowd said, "Hooooraaayyyy!!!" :hurrah:)

76Texan
12-07-2011, 01:54 AM
For a guy who likes to present logic, you sure know how to use all kind of false logic in the book, LOL!

Ad hominem, circular, just name it!

Stay on the topic, GP.

Who's the starter?
Jackson!

Did you predic that Allen would get the starting nod?
If you did, you can wait some more!

Those are facts, and not trash talk!

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 07:09 AM
Ok, Julio makes another catch with Kareem all over him at about the 10 but it is called back because Julio stepped out of bounds. But they are either targeting Kareem or they are in love with Julio or they are scared of jo.

If you watch, Ryan looks at Roddy first a couple of times, but Jjo has him covered pretty good.

On this particular pass though, if you're going to credit to Allen for getting Julio out of bounds earlier, the same should go for Kj here. Kareem does a good job of not letting Julio go where he wants to go & therefore steps out of bounds.

It was really a pretty good battle, That play setting Atlanta up for their first touchdown, that was just a cleanly executed, well designed play. Kj could have played it be

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 07:19 AM
...after watching it I'm less impressed with what he did.

He looked up, located the ball and failed to put his body in between the receiver and the ball. Maybe he was afraid of pi, or maybe he was intimidated by the fact that Julio had made some nice plays on him on that drive and a couple earlier in the game but in all honestly that's a catch Julio should have made.

I do agree with this 100%

Kj shouldn't have been worried about a PI because he has as much right to the ball as Julio. He should have made a positive play on the ball instead of letting himself get easily pushed out of the way by Julio. Kj's eyes are clearly on the ball if there was going to be a PI it would have been on Julio.



Now you can disagree with that if you want, but I had to look again for myself and I think anyone saying Kareem is mostly the reason for the drop is incorrect.


But this is the NFL, where Bernard Pollards get credit (or should) for receivers alligator-arming passes thrown across the middle. If Kareem is not in the play, I believe Julio makes that catch. Whether it's a mental thing or not doesn't matter. If he's not having to push Kareem out of the way, if he's not having to jump & contort his body.

Andre made a heck of a catch last year against Washington in a pretty similar situation. We consider it a heck of a catch, because he had to fight for it. Take the DBs out of that play, it's still a nice catch, but not as memorable.

.

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 07:51 AM
By the way, big damn deal if he got a game ball.

It is a big deal that Kubiak gave him a game ball. I'm watching the game & I'm actually thinking Kareem has had better games. I don't necessarily agree with giving him a game ball, but I do believe if Gary & co. saw reason for it, then they saw reason for it.

He's had better opportunities to make a good "gesture" so I don't think that is what it was.


He's not special, yet, and the jury is still out on the issue of his improvement form last year to this year...give me a full season of the guy NOT splitting time at CB2 before you and 76 try to string me up on "hater" charges, please.

I think splitting time says more about Jason Allen than it does about Kareem Jackson. Jason Allen has played well this season & is improving as a player as much as Kareem is. He deserves to be on the field.

That's like Tim Jamison getting more snaps, it's not that JJ Watt or Antonio Smith are not living up to their expectations, Tim Jamison is balling & deserves more time on the field.

But I didn't say that. I would never say that. I think the car pooling system he and Jason Allen are a part of is speaking for itself, and the video shows that we can slow down on any talk of KJ saving the day by pulling Julio Jones' arm down on the last play. It's a phantom existence.

To say he had no affect on the play at all just doesn't make sense.

It's difficult to argue the "saving the day" argument, because no one is saying he saved the day. He made a play, the ball wasn't caught, end of story.

It would have been great if he intercepted the ball & took it back for 6, but he didn't & that's ok.

It's like saying "Andre didn't do anything special on that 50 yard reception. TJ put the ball in front of him, all he had to do was put his arms out & catch it. Yeah there was a DB draped all over him, but he didn't affect the catch. Yeah he touched Andre's arm, but he didn't wrap his hands around his biceps & forcefully separate his hands from the ball. We expect Andre to make that catch. If that was the other team's #1 receiver, you expect him to make that catch."





He wasn't bad, he's playing decent, but the deep stuff is still tricky for him and that's where a team with a good QB (Saints, for example) will make their hay on us.

Really?

Because I don't remember Drew Brees going deep on Kj, none that were successful anyway. Wouldn't that make you think he can hold his own? He played a lot of snaps in that Saints game. He played on the majority of the defensive possessions. There was only one drive where he was targeted three times.

For all the snaps he took in that game, we only talk about those three.

I think that says something about his play against the top NFL offenses.


At this point, I think we've got around 3 or 4 other secondary players who could play CB2 as good as (or even better than) Kareem Jackson. Credit the Texans for being patient and at least trying to bring the guy along...but that doesn't mean he gets goodie bags when it isn't his birthday to begin with. There, I said it.

We just finished playing our 12th game. We're the number two defense in the league (really the 1b defense if you think about it). We are #4 in passing yards allowed. We are #1 in opposing QBR. We are #2 in scoring defense.

Kj got one game ball.

I don't think we're handing them out to all the kids that came to the party.

Rey
12-07-2011, 07:53 AM
It was really a pretty good battle, That play setting Atlanta up for their first touchdown, that was just a cleanly executed, well designed play. Kj could have played it better

Yes...It was a good battle...

Without actually looking the stats or the film I'd say that it was about half and half...

Julio won some, Kareem won some.

Rey
12-07-2011, 07:56 AM
It is a big deal that Kubiak gave him a game ball. I'm watching the game & I'm actually thinking Kareem has had better games. I don't necessarily agree with giving him a game ball, but I do believe if Gary & co. saw reason for it, then they saw reason for it.

He's had better opportunities to make a good "gesture" so I don't think that is what it was.


I'm watching the game and I am trying to see why he deserved the game ball over any other defensive players and IMO I think it has a lot to do with that INT early in the game...

That was a really good play by KJ. A great play in the context of helping the team win.

The reason I say this is because if KJ had not broken off and made that play that could have messed us up for the rest of the game. That was a TD, big play saving INT that he made. He was the only one back there to make the play and he f'n did it....

Also, on that last drive when Allen got hurt he came in and battled Julio pretty good despite the fact that they kept throwing the ball over there...

He had that big hit on Roddy White....

KJ fought his ass off that game.

Yeah he had some errors but the dude battled a pretty talented receiver.

TejasTom
12-07-2011, 08:00 AM
This is so much better than years past.

We are arguing over an incompletion in a WIN!

Not how did they blow a lead, I can't believe this play or that play or some unbelievable Hollywood ending for the other team. We've been saying for years that winners make those plays.

This play went to the Winner. It's amazing how many teams and players that looked like HOFers over the last few seasons now have bad games against us.

Wether or not KJ had anything to do with it, it wasn't a catch and we won.

This has been fun to watch, can we make this post 30 pages long?

Rey
12-07-2011, 08:25 AM
He has no hidden agenda. I have known rey for YEARS here, and I can tell you this about him: The guy will not agree with a person JUST to get along. He might like you and what you have to say on Topic A...but then he will just as readily argue with you about your take on Topic Z. Some people tend to align themselves with others and adopt the other person's stance on almost everything, and I haven't noticed rey doing that. He's not agenda-driven, IMO.

Me thinks you are projecting things onto rey that describe you instead.

Rey drifts in and out of conversations and actually seems to rarely have "a dog" in any fight on here. One of the more objective guys on this board, tbh.

Carry on, though.

You know....

Half the time I am posting from tapatalk on my phone and the names I'm responding to don't even register...Of course I can tell some posters just by their typing style and what the yare saying, but I don't have any agenda's besides pointing out what I think is good info and what is not...

I am surprised that 76 says I have an agenda...I thnk I've agreed with and disagreed with almost everyone here...

And I've actually been around a lot longer than you think GP...I remember when you were GPShaefer (sp)...I remember when the old official board became the new "official" board and this site was still being pieced together...


I've actually been around since 2003 when I was a young lad of 17...

:lurker:

Lots of folks also think I have some kind of agenda against Schaub, but I was one of the first ones to go out to a practice and watch him and post that I thought he was going to be a really good player for us...

But yeah...I don't have an agenda against anyone...Just post my opinion...

GP
12-07-2011, 08:52 AM
For a guy who likes to present logic, you sure know how to use all kind of false logic in the book, LOL!

Ad hominem, circular, just name it!

Stay on the topic, GP.

Who's the starter?
Jackson!

Did you predic that Allen would get the starting nod?
If you did, you can wait some more!

Those are facts, and not trash talk!

More "Nanny-Nanny-Boo-Boo!" trash talk.

On full display.

I won't do any trash talking. I'll let you do it all, as you're continuing to do here.

Keep showing us exactly who has an agenda, 76. You're doin' work and work is good.

GP
12-07-2011, 08:56 AM
You know....

Half the time I am posting from tapatalk on my phone and the names I'm responding to don't even register...Of course I can tell some posters just by their typing style and what the yare saying, but I don't have any agenda's besides pointing out what I think is good info and what is not...

I am surprised that 76 says I have an agenda...I thnk I've agreed with and disagreed with almost everyone here...

And I've actually been around a lot longer than you think GP...I remember when you were GPShaefer (sp)...I remember when the old official board became the new "official" board and this site was still being pieced together...


I've actually been around since 2003 when I was a young lad of 17...

:lurker:

Lots of folks also think I have some kind of agenda against Schaub, but I was one of the first ones to go out to a practice and watch him and post that I thought he was going to be a really good player for us...

But yeah...I don't have an agenda against anyone...Just post my opinion...

Yes, I switched it to just plain old GP when Kevin acquired the software that the "official" houstontexans.com message board had been operating with. We had to start over, post counts and rep points and such...so I figured I would just start fresh and shorten my name.

I had been over on the other board, and Kevin visited that board and invited people to come try out his new board (this one). I went, and I never went back to the texans.com board again.

You've got a good memory!

infantrycak
12-07-2011, 10:33 AM
OK. Tried to read through this schlock but couldn't manage it. But a couple comments.

Kj had a part in that, but it was still a drop at the end if the day.

Not according to outsiders having no affiliation with either team who credited KJ with a pass defensed and did not assign a drop to JJ.

I saw you have taken a middle line in this thread but that was an overstatement.

For the record , I trust Lance Zierlien opinions over 76Texans and the game ball combined...

Yeah, the same LZ who recently said OLmen assignments aren't affected by who is rushing the passer because it is just mano o mano. Good call. It's that great football acumen which has him employed in the NFL right? - even though he should have fantastic contacts through his father?

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Yeah, the same LZ who recently said OLmen assignments aren't affected by who is rushing the passer because it is just mano o mano. Good call. It's that great football acumen which has him employed in the NFL right? - even though he should have fantastic contacts through his father?

Did you read that correctly? Not trying to be smart, just asking the question. He said he'll take LZ's opinion (not his fathers) over 76Texans' & the game ball (which was awarded by Kubiak) combined.

That's bold, that's all I'm saying. LZ is knowledgeable, but I don't think he trumps Kubiak.

infantrycak
12-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Did you read that correctly? Not trying to be smart, just asking the question. He said he'll take LZ's opinion (not his fathers) over 76Texans' & the game ball (which was awarded by Kubiak) combined.

That's bold, that's all I'm saying. LZ is knowledgeable, but I don't think he trumps Kubiak.

I guess I should have put in a /sarcasm.

thunderkyss
12-07-2011, 12:12 PM
I guess I should have put in a /sarcasm.

Or maybe I can read up on the subtlety of punctuation & context.

My bad.

76Texan
12-08-2011, 04:33 PM
You know....

Half the time I am posting from tapatalk on my phone and the names I'm responding to don't even register...Of course I can tell some posters just by their typing style and what the yare saying, but I don't have any agenda's besides pointing out what I think is good info and what is not...

I am surprised that 76 says I have an agenda...I thnk I've agreed with and disagreed with almost everyone here...

And I've actually been around a lot longer than you think GP...I remember when you were GPShaefer (sp)...I remember when the old official board became the new "official" board and this site was still being pieced together...


I've actually been around since 2003 when I was a young lad of 17...

:lurker:

Lots of folks also think I have some kind of agenda against Schaub, but I was one of the first ones to go out to a practice and watch him and post that I thought he was going to be a really good player for us...

But yeah...I don't have an agenda against anyone...Just post my opinion...Agenda/Opinion

It's hard to differentiate between the two terms at times.

What I remember is that you (Rey) didn't think KJ will pan out as a #2.

Before the season began, you was putting the money on Allen to win out the starting spot over KJ (even though you didn't think either one of them is good enough for the job.)


Here are some of your quotes.


After the Ravens game:

(in respond to my post noting that on that particular play, the Texans were double-teaming Boldin with JJo and a safety while KJ was in man coverage)

"Boldin is their best wr. It makes more sense to double whoever Kareem is holding though."

"Kareem has not been a good player. "


Then, in late October:

(in respond to one of my posts):

"your kj stuff is getting a little creepy. How it's not obvious to you that he (KJ) is a liability is kind of strange.


"We need a real #2 corner and this defense will be exponentially better..."
...


Those were your bottom lines (at least until that moment).

I'm not sure you still think the same, or you have moved your agenda a little closer toward accepting that KJ seems to be working out as a #2 CB.

Care to give your current opinion?

Rey
12-08-2011, 04:36 PM
Delete.

thunderkyss
12-08-2011, 05:37 PM
Agenda/Opinion

It's hard to differentiate between the two terms at times.

What I remember is that you (Rey) didn't think KJ will pan out as a #2.

Before the season began, you was putting the money on Allen to win out the starting spot over KJ (even though you didn't think either one of them is good enough for the job.)


I understood & respected Rey's opinion that Allen would at least get the ball back from time to time, even though he was as much a liability as Kj.

While I do respect Allen's penchant for INTs, I'd much rather have Kj out there where the guy is usually covered better & the ball not thrown his way as often as Allen (that's the way I see it, sorry if you don't agree).

But Rey's opinion & stance was just as valid as mine or yours.

Delete.

I understand.

thunderkyss
12-12-2011, 10:07 PM
How many touchdowns did we give up yesterday?

foo82
12-12-2011, 10:10 PM
How many touchdowns did we give up yesterday?

I dunno, but I'm sure it was Kareem's fault we almost lost.

BigBull17
12-13-2011, 09:23 AM
I think KJ has improved by leaps and bounds from last year. My only concers is that he lacks the foot speed at times. he is tough and is decent when he gets his hands on the ball, but I will worry when he defends a speed receiver. I don't think CB is a glaring need, but if you have a chance to upgrade it, you do. Like all positions.

thunderkyss
12-13-2011, 12:17 PM
I dunno, but I'm sure it was Kareem's fault we almost lost.

The reason I brought this up, is because for some reason there is usually not a word spoken about Kareem Jackson unless he "potentially" gives up a games tieing score.

Again, Kareem was virtually invisible because (I think) his receiver isn't open. He might not have been covering Megatron, but he's doing his job just the same.

Another reason I brought this up, is because we gave up 1 TD. Jason Allen looked to be playing zone, he passed the receiver off to the safety & imo the safety (Manning) was inexplicably covering the other side of the field. That's just my take. Allen didn't do anything wrong, but if you watch the alignment before the snap, then watch who is around the player when he scores, it makes it look as if Allen screwed up, when (I think) the safety should have been there.

thunderkyss
12-13-2011, 12:20 PM
I think KJ has improved by leaps and bounds from last year. My only concers is that he lacks the foot speed at times. he is tough and is decent when he gets his hands on the ball, but I will worry when he defends a speed receiver. I don't think CB is a glaring need, but if you have a chance to upgrade it, you do. Like all positions.

On a pure speed receiver, I would rather have Allen or McCain out there. I think Kj has good speed, but not enough experience to use it right (shouldn't be that way, but that's the way I see it). He'll do in a pinch, because he's good at the line with his hands. He should be able to disrupt the timing.

On a receiver who is physical, I'd rather have Kj, although Allen has been using his size more to his advantage lately. But you can tell Allen wants to turn & run every snap... but that's not always the best thing to do.

foo82
12-13-2011, 02:08 PM
On a pure speed receiver, I would rather have Allen or McCain out there. I think Kj has good speed, but not enough experience to use it right (shouldn't be that way, but that's the way I see it). He'll do in a pinch, because he's good at the line with his hands. He should be able to disrupt the timing.

On a receiver who is physical, I'd rather have Kj, although Allen has been using his size more to his advantage lately. But you can tell Allen wants to turn & run every snap... but that's not always the best thing to do.

My major gripe with KJ isn't his speed, but rather his awareness of where the ball is at. Many time's he i too focused on the receiver which may account to why he is targeted less because it gives the appearance of being covered.

BUt when something is thrown his way, especially a deep ball, he rarely has his head turned around to track. There were a few times the ball was underthrown in which the wr had to make an adjustment.

76Texan
12-14-2011, 05:51 PM
How many touchdowns did we give up yesterday?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eApYgMlPLVQ

Watch how the defense schemed to give Allen more support.
And we still gave up the TD.

Allen on weakside (2 offensive threats) with 5 defenders.
Manning moved back to the middle to play deep safety.

Texans put on a stunt.
We blitzed all 3 gaps on the weak side.
Almost got there, too!

Allen made a bad read and was turned around.
Whether we were in cover 3 or cover 1, it was still not a good play by Allen (even though the defense schemed to give him more support.)

EllisUnit
12-14-2011, 06:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eApYgMlPLVQ

Watch how the defense schemed to give Allen more support.
And we still gave up the TD.

Allen on weakside (2 offensive threats) with 5 defenders.
Manning moved back to the middle to play deep safety.

Texans put on a stunt.
We blitzed all 3 gaps on the weak side.
Almost got there, too!

Allen made a bad read and was turned around.
Whether we were in cover 3 or cover 1, it was still not a good play by Allen (even though the defense schemed to give him more support.)

allen 4 ints 14 passes defended

Jackson 1 int 4 passes defended

enough said. I watch the games and they dont give allen any more help than they give Jackson or JoJo

thunderkyss
12-14-2011, 07:39 PM
allen 4 ints 14 passes defended

Jackson 1 int 4 passes defended


If that's on 30 passes thrown Allen's way vs 16 thrown Kj's way do those numbers still prove your point?

foo82
12-15-2011, 12:39 AM
If that's on 30 passes thrown Allen's way vs 16 thrown Kj's way do those numbers still prove your point?

don't bother responding. Ellis will forever be a KJ hater. If KJ ever becomes a probowl cb, the hating will still continue on. Stats are on a mere convenience to prove his point. Any stat showing the opposite will just be ignored. There is no rhyme or reason.

KJ will now and forever be "burnt toast".

Ellis would rather KJ suck and bring the Texans down to crap to prove his point than him being a good player and helping the Texans. His hatred for KJ exceeds his love for the Texans.

thunderkyss
12-15-2011, 07:01 AM
Can someone generate a list of all the Rookie Cornerbacks that played the majority of the defensive snaps (starter) as a rookie?

I know T-Newman did, Charles Woodson, who else?

steelbtexan
12-15-2011, 03:31 PM
don't bother responding. Ellis will forever be a KJ hater. If KJ ever becomes a probowl cb, the hating will still continue on. Stats are on a mere convenience to prove his point. Any stat showing the opposite will just be ignored. There is no rhyme or reason.

KJ will now and forever be "burnt toast".

Ellis would rather KJ suck and bring the Texans down to crap to prove his point than him being a good player and helping the Texans. His hatred for KJ exceeds his love for the Texans.

This post is rather presumptive.

Not that I have a dog in this fight. (Mike Vick refrence)

76Texan
12-15-2011, 06:11 PM
Regarding the last play in the Falcons game, here's another independent view:
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/12/05/texans-d-continues-its-dominance-in-win-over-falco

Although it appeared to the naked eye that Jones dropped what would have been the game-tying score, replays revealed that Jackson was able to reach his hand in and disrupt the play.

76Texan
12-15-2011, 06:13 PM
Here's an update ranking on DBs by PFF if you like stats.
(Jason Allen is not on the list.)

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/09/06/fantasy-weekly-defensive-backs-projections/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/04/10/fantasy-house-rules-the-quest-for-an-idp-scoring-system-the-findings/

EllisUnit
12-15-2011, 09:25 PM
don't bother responding. Ellis will forever be a KJ hater. If KJ ever becomes a probowl cb, the hating will still continue on. Stats are on a mere convenience to prove his point. Any stat showing the opposite will just be ignored. There is no rhyme or reason.

KJ will now and forever be "burnt toast".

Ellis would rather KJ suck and bring the Texans down to crap to prove his point than him being a good player and helping the Texans. His hatred for KJ exceeds his love for the Texans.

Haha no i say what i see, when and if KJ starts playing at a pro bowl calibur i will love it, i dont see you responding to how 76 or TK are so far up KJs ass they couldnt see the 50 yard line if they were standing on the 50. No need to attack Allen to make KJ look good. I have not started a Thread bashing KJ in a long time, on the other hand 76 has started threads bashing allen.

Read all the threads and posts and you wont look so stupid with such a biased response.

much appreciated ELLIS
and KJ still sucks :doot:

silvrhand
12-15-2011, 10:07 PM
I'll just be glad one way or another the KJ threads will stop, either he's traded or playing good enough that people just let it go.

buddyboy
12-15-2011, 11:06 PM
Haha no i say what i see, when and if KJ starts playing at a pro bowl calibur i will love it, i dont see you responding to how 76 or TK are so far up KJs ass they couldnt see the 50 yard line if they were standing on the 50. No need to attack Allen to make KJ look good. I have not started a Thread bashing KJ in a long time, on the other hand 76 has started threads bashing allen.

Read all the threads and posts and you wont look so stupid with such a biased response.

much appreciated ELLIS
and KJ still sucks :doot:

The reason people say things like that about you is exemplefied in the last little jab you made. Your little smiley says it all.

You're not hoping KJ does better. Your happy he's not playing at a probowl caliber. In fact, you're apparently ecstatic that, in your mind, he sucks, simply because that means you get to continue to believe you're justified in the way you assessed him previously.

Most people believe that KJ didn't perform as well has we needed him to last year (sure, there are some exceptions). But, most people also recognize his improvement without making backhanded snipes at him.

And it's really going to take probowl play from him to stop your crying about him? Apparently we're only going to have about one probowler this year, you should be spouting nonsense about the other 52 players on our team too.

EllisUnit
12-16-2011, 04:33 PM
The reason people say things like that about you is exemplefied in the last little jab you made. Your little smiley says it all.

You're not hoping KJ does better. Your happy he's not playing at a probowl caliber. In fact, you're apparently ecstatic that, in your mind, he sucks, simply because that means you get to continue to believe you're justified in the way you assessed him previously.

Most people believe that KJ didn't perform as well has we needed him to last year (sure, there are some exceptions). But, most people also recognize his improvement without making backhanded snipes at him.

And it's really going to take probowl play from him to stop your crying about him? Apparently we're only going to have about one probowler this year, you should be spouting nonsense about the other 52 players on our team too.

buddy boy please show me the last thread i made about KJ, i comment in other threads that other people make when they talk bad about J.Allen. Yes it is apparent that i dont like KJ, that is obvious. I only say what i say because of threads like this, cause now KJ is SOOOO good that he never needs safety help and Allen ALWAYS needs it haha. Last season KJ sucked because the safties didnt help him enough or they sucked (according to 76 and TK) but, now all the sudden he succeeds with no safety help. Give me a break.

Oh and KJ really really really sucks :doot:still

GP
12-16-2011, 04:53 PM
LOL.

I see the Crimson Tide is rolling again.

I have never seen a few people work so HARD to prop up a guy, and then try to minimize a stat like EllisUnit pointed out.

BUT...Kareem Jackson is "the starter" so the argument is over, so I'm told.

Yet the guy is playing roughly half the snaps and doing a Time Share with Jason Allen. Hey, if Jason Allen sucks as bad as you guys think...why isn't Kareem Jackson the full time starter by now? My theory is KJ is so behind the curve, that Jason Allen is splitting time with him so that KJ can absorb the game and watch a little bit more than playing every snap.

I don't see any big leap in KJ this year, in terms of his reaction to deep passes and just a huge stiffness in how he reacts to things. He really doesn't look like NFL caliber to me. And besides, Saban was silent when asked about KJ leaving early for the draft...IIRC, he felt the guy needed another year and wasn't ready. People think Saban is a dyck, I don't care, he just wins at the college level and knows who's up in college ball. I trust the guy's reaction to KJ leaving early. He flat out felt the guy was still rough around the edges.

I think we even had a 'Bama fan come on here and say that the other CB on that team was the real star and KJ was...well, a CB2 and nothing more. I'm sorry, but we don't draft CBs in the first round to be a career CB2, do we? And he was drafted BEFORE we got Joseph and Manning in free agency--KJ was here one full year before we acquired a CB1--so we wanted/needed a potential CB1. THAT is the grade standard I hold KJ to. ****, we got a pretty competent QB in the 5th round folks. KJ can't control where he gets drafted on draft day, but still...he and two others were graded as 1st round material. Oops.

I just don't get how the Jackson Three (TK, BB, and 76) ignore that. The guy is in a job share out there, for crying out loud. Yeah, he's burnin' it up in 2011....

:shakeweightmotion:

ObsiWan
12-16-2011, 04:57 PM
this thread == :deadhorse


:runaway:

GP
12-16-2011, 05:03 PM
this thread == :deadhorse


:runaway:

LOL. Slow news week.

Tired of Tebow.

Tired of "We don't get no love from the media!"

Tired of "Why did Wade Phillips have to say that crap?!?!? Dammit!!!! :smilie palm: "

It was only going to get dredged up again, it's nature. Ecosystem and all that jazz.

thunderkyss
12-16-2011, 05:48 PM
I have never seen a few people work so HARD to prop up a guy, and then try to minimize a stat like EllisUnit pointed out.

BUT...Kareem Jackson is "the starter" so the argument is over, so I'm told.

Yet the guy is playing roughly half the snaps and doing a Time Share with Jason Allen. Hey, if Jason Allen sucks as bad as you guys think...why isn't Kareem Jackson the full time starter by now? My theory is KJ is so behind the curve, that Jason Allen is splitting time with him so that KJ can absorb the game and watch a little bit more than playing every snap.

Jason Allen has bounced from corner to safety to street free agent for a reason. He's a better corner now than when he came here.

I expected Kareem to get better, that's what 2nd year players do. Didn't expect Allen to get better, 6-7 year vets usually don't, but he proved me wrong.

So, I never said Allen sucks, only that I'd invest more time in Kareem than Allen if it were me making the decisions. Luckily for us, the Texans don't see it that way & have the time to develop both players. I'd imagine Brandon Harris is getting more & more NFL ready as well.


I don't see any big leap in KJ this year, in terms of his reaction to deep passes and just a huge stiffness in how he reacts to things. He really doesn't look like NFL caliber to me.

& that's fine, we're all wrong every once in a while.


And besides, Saban was silent when asked about KJ leaving early for the draft...IIRC, he felt the guy needed another year and wasn't ready. People think Saban is a dyck, I don't care, he just wins at the college level and knows who's up in college ball. I trust the guy's reaction to KJ leaving early. He flat out felt the guy was still rough around the edges.

Saban has a history of his guys going the full 4 years. It's rare when they don't. I'd imagine he'd say the same about any of his players.

I think we even had a 'Bama fan come on here and say that the other CB on that team was the real star and KJ was...well, a CB2 and nothing more. I'm sorry, but we don't draft CBs in the first round to be a career CB2, do we? And he was drafted BEFORE we got Joseph and Manning in free agency--KJ was here one full year before we acquired a CB1--so we wanted/needed a potential CB1. THAT is the grade standard I hold KJ to. ****, we got a pretty competent QB in the 5th round folks. KJ can't control where he gets drafted on draft day, but still...he and two others were graded as 1st round material. Oops.

We drafted Kj and continued to pursue FA corners. We didn't find any that were better than what we had. Leigh Bodden may have been the exception, but he didn't want to come here.

Kj was not drafted & expected to start right away. We failed to secure a veteran fA & had to play the hand we were dealt.

It is still too early to say that Kj will never be a number one. But he is improving, even though you don't see it. With Jjo here, sorry, he won't be CB1, but that doesn't mean he won't be a very good CB.

I just don't get how the Jackson Three (TK, BB, and 76) ignore that. The guy is in a job share out there, for crying out loud. Yeah, he's burnin' it up in 2011....

:shakeweightmotion:

I didn't think any less of Caldwell or Duane Brown when they were working out very similar situations. If you've got players that you believe they deserve to be on the field, you find a way to do it.

Look, I'm watching the kid play & I think (my opinion) that he plays well for a 2nd year corner, (I thought he played well for a rookie as well on a historically bad defense).

I do not expect a CB to come out of college & make it to the probowl as a rookie. Though it has happened (McCourty) it's rare. There have been some to come out & play well as rookies (TNewman, Charles Woodson come to mind) but it is still more the case that they play like rookies, look at all the other CBs from his draft class.... take a look at McCourty this year.

Look at the Corners that have come out in the last 4 years & start naming the ones that look hands down better than Kareem Jackson, then try to remember or find tape from their rookie years. Most of them do not play the number of snaps Kareem did. & it's for a reason, because they'll look like Kareem did.

All I'm saying, & all I've ever said, is that I'm not writing him off.

ObsiWan
12-16-2011, 06:28 PM
LOL. Slow news week.

Tired of Tebow.

Tired of "We don't get no love from the media!"

Tired of "Why did Wade Phillips have to say that crap?!?!? Dammit!!!! :smilie palm: "

It was only going to get dredged up again, it's nature. Ecosystem and all that jazz.

I'm into recycling as much as the next guy but geez...
oh well, carry on.
:truck:

EllisUnit
12-17-2011, 01:25 AM
:kitten: i always say i will try to avoid these type of threads, and i never do. but this time i mean it :user:

EllisUnit
12-17-2011, 01:34 AM
If that's on 30 passes thrown Allen's way vs 16 thrown Kj's way do those numbers still prove your point?

oh one last thing T yes they do prove my point you do the math here i will do it for you

KJ 1 int 4 passes defended in 16 passes his way

now

allen 4 int and 14 passes defended on 30 passes his way

ok half of 30 is 15 right. that means allen defends the pass just under 50% of the time. while half of 16 is 8 this means KJ defends the pass 25% of the time.

Allen 4 Ints on 30 pass attempts and KJ 1 Int on 16 pass attemps. again half of 30 is 15. This means allen intercepts the ball 1 out of every 7.2 pass attempts. and then half of 16 is 8 this means KJ intercepts the ball 1 out of every 16 pass attempts. well the math on KJs last part was dumb

See so breaking down the numbers actually proves my point, thanks :)

tarheeltexan
12-17-2011, 01:40 AM
Well "In Wade I Trust" is usually the way I look at it but idk how many changes will be made while Wade is gone...

thunderkyss
12-17-2011, 08:59 AM
oh one last thing T yes they do prove my point you do the math here i will do it for you

KJ 1 int 4 passes defended in 16 passes his way

now

allen 4 int and 14 passes defended on 30 passes his way

ok half of 30 is 15 right. that means allen defends the pass just under 50% of the time. while half of 16 is 8 this means KJ defends the pass 25% of the time.

Allen 4 Ints on 30 pass attempts and KJ 1 Int on 16 pass attemps. again half of 30 is 15. This means allen intercepts the ball 1 out of every 7.2 pass attempts. and then half of 16 is 8 this means KJ intercepts the ball 1 out of every 16 pass attempts. well the math on KJs last part was dumb

See so breaking down the numbers actually proves my point, thanks :)

Well that's true....

depending on how you look at it. If Kareem is getting more snaps (& I don't know that is true or not) why are more balls going Allen's way than Kareem's..... that would have to factor .

How many completions were made? If Kj gave up 4 in 16 targets & Allen gives up 14 in his 30 that changes things don't it? If Kj gave up 1 touchdown with those stats & Allen gave up 3..... etc...

I love stats, don't get me wrong. But they aren't the end all be all.

EllisUnit
12-17-2011, 09:15 AM
Well that's true....

depending on how you look at it. If Kareem is getting more snaps (& I don't know that is true or not) why are more balls going Allen's way than Kareem's..... that would have to factor .

How many completions were made? If Kj gave up 4 in 16 targets & Allen gives up 14 in his 30 that changes things don't it? If Kj gave up 1 touchdown with those stats & Allen gave up 3..... etc...

I love stats, don't get me wrong. But they aren't the end all be all.

i fully agree that stats dont always tell the whole story. I will say this, i do think KJ has improved from last season, not just his play but the CB opposite him and both safety positions have been upgraded, and i think it is making everyone look better, not to mention Our D-Line dont like to give QBs very much time to set up and throw.

We all know i like J. Allen and that yall like KJ. I stopped all the KJ Bashing threads, just wish 76 would stop all the allen bashing threads. Hell i would never talk bad about KJ if that could happen.

Lucky
12-17-2011, 09:41 AM
Saban has a history of his guys going the full 4 years. It's rare when they don't. I'd imagine he'd say the same about any of his players.

Huh? Saban has had plenty of his players leave early. Dareus, Ingram, and Julio Jones from the 2011 draft alone.

We drafted Kj and continued to pursue FA corners. We didn't find any that were better than what we had. Leigh Bodden may have been the exception, but he didn't want to come here.

Kj was not drafted & expected to start right away. We failed to secure a veteran fA & had to play the hand we were dealt.
You've got it backwards. Free agency happens prior to the draft. The Texans failed to pickup a vet CB in free agency and drafted Jackson to start right away. Hence the "most NFL ready" comments by Smithiak. Jackson was a starter from the first minicamp.

thunderkyss
12-17-2011, 10:22 AM
You've got it backwards. Free agency happens prior to the draft. The Texans failed to pickup a vet CB in free agency and drafted Jackson to start right away. Hence the "most NFL ready" comments by Smithiak. Jackson was a starter from the first minicamp.

FA starts before the draft, it doesn't end at the draft. If I remember, we were still looking at CBs throughout that off-season & even through that season, that's how we ended up with Pahman (?or whatever his name was) & Allen.

"most NFL ready" I took as coach speak.... we were going to make the best of the situation we were in.

thunderkyss
12-18-2011, 07:26 PM
I had to work, haven't watched the game, how did Kj do today?

Texn4life
12-18-2011, 07:32 PM
I had to work, haven't watched the game, how did Kj do today?


I only saw him thrown at a couple times at the most and he had solid coverage all game. Joseph was attacked for the 2nd straight game. If it wasn't against AJ Green and Steve Smith then I'd be worried.

thunderkyss
12-19-2011, 11:06 AM
:cricket:


................ ....:cricket:


..........:cricket:


.................................................. .....:cricket:

thunderkyss
12-20-2011, 06:40 AM
Surely someone has a Kareem Jackson gripe.

foo82
12-20-2011, 09:55 AM
Surely someone has a Kareem Jackson gripe.

I do. It was KJ's fault his man wasn't targetted and that Joseph was targeted all day. If he had done a worse job, we could have simply bitched at him.

thunderkyss
12-20-2011, 10:42 AM
I do. It was KJ's fault his man wasn't targetted and that Joseph was targeted all day. If he had done a worse job, we could have simply bitched at him.

Freak'n selfish mofo..... needs to learn to take one for the team.

Mr. Texan
12-22-2011, 10:32 PM
:kitten:

EllisUnit
12-22-2011, 10:33 PM
:kitten:

yep thats about all i have to say as well

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 11:11 PM
Personally, I think we need Wade Phillips.

That Herring guy doesn't know what he's looking at. He had Jason Allen out there getting picked on by Dan O & Wayne. When Kj finally got in the game, it looked like Reggie Wayne disappeared, until that last drive.

Yeah, that last drive is the only one that counted, but Allen showed he was not up to the task all night long.

Garcia caught a ball on Kj, for a short gain. Reggie Wayne caught the one skinny post that put them on our 30 (or something) & Wayne caught that TD on Kj...... that was the same thing Kj did vs Roddy White on that "game winning save" this time, Wayne made the catch.

If you have the ability, go back & watch the series Kj was in & see how many times the ball went to Kj's man. Orlovsky much rather throw on Jjo.

I'm not saying Kj is better than Jjo. But Orlovsky went away from Wayne when Kj was in the game. He targeted Wayne when Allen was in the game.

Kj gave up that final touchdown on the drive our defense gave up 50 yards on penalties alone.

76Texan
12-22-2011, 11:38 PM
Personally, I think we need Wade Phillips.

That Herring guy doesn't know what he's looking at. He had Jason Allen out there getting picked on by Dan O & Wayne. When Kj finally got in the game, it looked like Reggie Wayne disappeared, until that last drive.

Yeah, that last drive is the only one that counted, but Allen showed he was not up to the task all night long.

Garcon caught a ball on Kj, for a short gain. Reggie Wayne caught the one skinny post that put them on our 30 (or something) & Wayne caught that TD on Kj...... that was the same thing Kj did vs Roddy White on that "game winning save" this time, Wayne made the catch.

If you have the ability, go back & watch the series Kj was in & see how many times the ball went to Kj's man. Orlovsky much rather throw on Jjo.

I'm not saying Kj is better than Jjo. But Orlovsky went away from Wayne when Kj was in the game. He targeted Wayne when Allen was in the game.

Kj gave up that final touchdown on the drive our defense gave up 50 yards on penalties alone.

That skinny post was on Demps.
Texans were in 1/4 on that side with Cushing and McCain in underneath zone.
The slot receiver (Collie) squat short of the first down marker (basically, he was already double-teamed by Cushing and McCain).
Demps inexplicably stepped down right behind Cushing.
That's definitely a poor play by Demps (bone-head).

To put this game on KJ is the job of the haters; they are doing their job well.

amazing80
12-22-2011, 11:40 PM
That skinny post was on Demps.
Texans were in 1/4 on that side with Cushing and McCain in underneath zone.
The slot receiver (Collie) squat short of the first down marker (basically, he was already double-teamed by Cushing and McCain).
Demps inexplicably stepped down right behind Cushing.
That's definitely a poor play by Demps (bone-head).

To put this game on KJ is the job of the haters; they are doing their job well.

why was Demps even playing deep....you have Manning and Quin and yet neither were there deep to protect us.....:toropalm:

EllisUnit
12-22-2011, 11:41 PM
That skinny post was on Demps.
Texans were in 1/4 on that side with Cushing and McCain in underneath zone.
The slot receiver (Collie) squat short of the first down marker (basically, he was already double-teamed by Cushing and McCain).
Demps inexplicably stepped down right behind Cushing.
That's definitely a poor play by Demps (bone-head).

To put this game on KJ is the job of the haters; they are doing their job well.

oh lord here we go again, same as last year, it is on the safties and not on KJ, that is still KJs man, the safety is for HELP over the top. Get outta here with that its on the safties and not KJ bull ****. cause according to you the safties are what is always saving allen, and BTW allen gave up 3 passes, KJ gave up 4, and the 2 biggest of the game on the last drive.

kwayshauntay
12-22-2011, 11:56 PM
On the game winning TD, Kareem never turned his head to find the ball.



I've never seen him do that before. /sarcasm



So instead of turning his head to find and play the ball, he instead chose to flail blindly, hoping to get lucky (like he did against the Bucs).

:toropalm:

fiasco west
12-23-2011, 12:08 AM
On the game winning TD, Kareem never turned his head to find the ball.



I've never seen him do that before. /sarcasm



So instead of turning his head to find and play the ball, he instead chose to flail blindly, hoping to get lucky (like he did against the Bucs).

:toropalm:

I'm not getting into the whole Kareem thing.

But I wonder if Joseph would have been covering Wayne more if Wade was on the sidelines. If this was the case, it just goes to show you that a good coach puts his players in the best position to make plays.

Of course Wayne is going to out jump Kareem. The knock on Kareem is that he doesn't play the ball as much as he should (AKA, Not looking at it in the air) and Joseph does the exact opposite.

Did JJ defend on Wayne the first game? Why was it different this time? Did we feel that Garcon was more of a threat? That guy has the dropsies...

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 12:14 AM
That skinny post was on Demps.
Texans were in 1/4 on that side with Cushing and McCain in underneath zone.
The slot receiver (Collie) squat short of the first down marker (basically, he was already double-teamed by Cushing and McCain).
Demps inexplicably stepped down right behind Cushing.
That's definitely a poor play by Demps (bone-head).

To put this game on KJ is the job of the haters; they are doing their job well.

I here what you're saying. But Kj was right there. Wayne plucks the ball high in the air. Kj is there to make a play & doesn't.

I here what you're saying I agree; somewhat...

But the play was there for him & he didn't make it.

76Texan
12-23-2011, 12:43 AM
I here what you're saying. But Kj was right there. Wayne plucks the ball high in the air. Kj is there to make a play & doesn't.

I here what you're saying I agree; somewhat...

But the play was there for him & he didn't make it.

All I was saying was that you can't put the game on one play.

I didn't defend KJ on that play even though he wasn't bad at all.
He was right there. He played the same technique that we've seen him defending that fade route (many times; even going back to last year against Hakeem Nicks,)
It's what the coaches think is most comfortable for him against that route (at this time).

JJo was nowhere near the receiver just a couple of plays earlier; that could have been an uncontested TD.
Quin was all over the receiver for that PI; that could have been a TD just the same.

KJ just missed the ball, but his hand was right in there.
It was the most contested play out of the three!

ObsiWan
12-23-2011, 12:47 AM
:cricket:


................ ....:cricket:


..........:cricket:


.................................................. .....:cricket:

Surely someone has a Kareem Jackson gripe.

Happy now?
:D

steelbtexan
12-23-2011, 12:49 AM
How many yrs does KJ have to get burned by Wayne before Gary realizes that KJ cant cover him?

We miss you Wade.

leebigeztx
12-23-2011, 12:51 AM
If you're going to have a db who can't find the ball, they should've kept jacquez reeves.

76Texan
12-23-2011, 12:52 AM
How many yrs does KJ have to get burned by Wayne before Gary realizes that KJ cant cover him?

We miss you Wade.

The same applies to JJo on Garcon!

76Texan
12-23-2011, 12:54 AM
If you're going to have a db who can't find the ball, they should've kept jacquez reeves.

Except that Wade wants no more part of Reeves!

You talk like a DB is taught to locate the ball on every single play.
How about that play when JJo was burned by Steve Smith when he tried to locate the ball?

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 12:57 AM
Quin was all over the receiver for that PI; that could have been a TD just the same.


I don't agree with the Quin PI. The contact started well within the 5 yards. The receiver never made any attempt to separate, he tried to run through Quin till he made his break. Then the ball was in the air & Quin was going for the ball.

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 12:58 AM
How many yrs does KJ have to get burned by Wayne before Gary realizes that KJ cant cover him?

We miss you Wade.

2 catches 26 yards & a TD.

I think Kj did as good a job as anyone on Reggie Wayne.

buddyboy
12-23-2011, 01:01 AM
Oh, I never saw this post. Regardless of what happened tonight (I didn't get to see the game), I'd like to address some of these points.

buddy boy please show me the last thread i made about KJ, i comment in other threads that other people make when they talk bad about J.Allen

Okay...nothing I said, EVER, said anything that this would address. Stop arguing against no one, it's too easy to win.


Yes it is apparent that i dont like KJ, that is obvious. I only say what i say because of threads like this, cause now KJ is SOOOO good that he never needs safety help and Allen ALWAYS needs it haha. Last season KJ sucked because the safties didnt help him enough or they sucked (according to 76 and TK) but, now all the sudden he succeeds with no safety help. Give me a break.

It's true that safety help makes corners better. And it's true that corners get beat. And it's true that sometimes, the safety is to blame. Please, note, and pay attention, I am NOT saying that KJ is never to blame. I am not saying that Allen is always to blame. And I don't think anyone but 76 have said anything about KJ being amazing, we've all just been happy with his (limited) progress.

Oh and KJ really really really sucks :doot:still

That whole response, and not only did you not address my main point, but you emphasized it. You're just giddy that Jackson's hurting the team, aren't you? Who roots against their own team, hoping that their opinion will be justified? Pathetic.

76Texan
12-23-2011, 01:06 AM
I don't agree with the Quin PI. The contact started well within the 5 yards. The receiver never made any attempt to separate, he tried to run through Quin till he made his break. Then the ball was in the air & Quin was going for the ball.

I'm not 100% sure about the rules, but I think the 5-yd chuck rule cannot apply here.

When the ball leaves the QB's hand, the DB can't hit the receiver until the ball arrives.

Maybe we'll have an explanation next week?!?

leebigeztx
12-23-2011, 03:35 AM
Except that Wade wants no more part of Reeves!

You talk like a DB is taught to locate the ball on every single play.
How about that play when JJo was burned by Steve Smith when he tried to locate the ball?

I hope you're not serious,lol. Its called ball skills. Yes the db is taught from an early ae to locate the ball when the wr turns and looks for the ball or he shows his hands. Now when a qb throws the back shoulder pass to perfection, its not a lot that can be done, but on those last 2 plays by wayne, his lack of ball skills showed. Just like the julio jones play in which jones just dropped the game tying td. Reggie wayne isn't a rookie wr who isn't used to catching the ball in traffic.

ObsiWan
12-23-2011, 03:54 AM
I don't agree with the Quin PI. The contact started well within the 5 yards. The receiver never made any attempt to separate, he tried to run through Quin till he made his break. Then the ball was in the air & Quin was going for the ball.

I'm not 100% sure about the rules, but I think the 5-yd chuck rule cannot apply here.

When the ball leaves the QB's hand, the DB can't hit the receiver until the ball arrives.

Maybe we'll have an explanation next week?!?

I looked at that play again and I can see why it was called. Quin had his off arm (right in this case) wrapped around the receiver. Never moved it off the receiver's body when the ball was in flight. Given that the ref who called it was behind the play, he probably thought that contact had more impact on the play than it really did. But the way they were calling incidental, ticky-tacky stuff, I'm not surprised it was called.

gafftop
12-23-2011, 06:44 AM
If you're going to have a db who can't find the ball, they should've kept jacquez reeves.

Yep. But KJ is one of Kubes draft choices.
Just happy and lucky Julio dropped the ball in the Bengal game. Could of easily been a repeat tonight

mussop
12-23-2011, 08:23 AM
Can't believe there are still people defending KJ. How many big Plays does be have to give up before people realize he is J Reeves all over again? Honestly in he last two years I can count on one hand how many times he has turned,ocatex the ball and made a play on the ball. They should move him to safety and see if he has anything there warranting him holding down a roster spot.

Anyone still defending this POS is just not willing to admit they are wrong.

playa465
12-23-2011, 09:06 AM
Can't believe there are still people defending KJ. How many big Plays does be have to give up before people realize he is J Reeves all over again? Honestly in he last two years I can count on one hand how many times he has turned,ocatex the ball and made a play on the ball. They should move him to safety and see if he has anything there warranting him holding down a roster spot.

Anyone still defending this POS is just not willing to admit they are wrong.

KJ this, KJ that...Its the coach's decision to have him in there and Kubiak is not making that call. Either way, KJ is partly the blame in any play that he is a part of that is successful for the offense just by nature of the game as with any DB. However, there is no way I'm letting Reggie Wayne go 1 on 1 with anyone in that situation.

EllisUnit
12-23-2011, 09:51 AM
Oh, I never saw this post. Regardless of what happened tonight (I didn't get to see the game), I'd like to address some of these points.



Okay...nothing I said, EVER, said anything that this would address. Stop arguing against no one, it's too easy to win.




It's true that safety help makes corners better. And it's true that corners get beat. And it's true that sometimes, the safety is to blame. Please, note, and pay attention, I am NOT saying that KJ is never to blame. I am not saying that Allen is always to blame. And I don't think anyone but 76 have said anything about KJ being amazing, we've all just been happy with his (limited) progress.



That whole response, and not only did you not address my main point, but you emphasized it. You're just giddy that Jackson's hurting the team, aren't you? Who roots against their own team, hoping that their opinion will be justified? Pathetic.

first off you said i always take time to attack KJ, i simple asked for you to show me my last thread i made that was to bash KJ, i on the other hand can show u many more recent ones made by other posters to bash allen, so yes i retaliate, normal response wouldnt you say.

And i dont root against my own team i dont even root against KJ, i say and express what i see on the field, and last night i saw KJ give up a big play to wayne that put them inside the 20 and then i saw him give up the game winner, thank good julio cant hold onto the ball otherwise that woulda been 2 game winning TDs he gave up.

EllisUnit
12-23-2011, 09:54 AM
The same applies to JJo on Garcon!

jojo didnt give up a TD, our the game winner, and dont talk about the play where it would of been a TD if Watt hadnt knocked the ball down, same applies to KJ if julio jones hadnt dropped the ball.

amazing80
12-23-2011, 09:57 AM
KJ was terrible, but so was Allen.....Allen was being abused the first half then it was KJ, the difference was KJ was in there to LOSE the game for us.....both of them suck and we should cut them both this year and sign another corner....like Brent Grimes or Terrell Thomas or another solid number 2. McCain has been very good in the slot and we still have Harris in our back pocket......

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 03:03 PM
Last season KJ sucked because the safties didnt help him enough or they sucked (according to 76 and TK)

For the record, I never said that. I said he played like a rookie CB & anyone expecting him to play better should have known better.

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 03:23 PM
Can't believe there are still people defending KJ. How many big Plays does be have to give up before people realize he is J Reeves all over again? Honestly in he last two years I can count on one hand how many times he has turned,ocatex the ball and made a play on the ball. They should move him to safety and see if he has anything there warranting him holding down a roster spot.

Anyone still defending this POS is just not willing to admit they are wrong.

I understand what you are saying. We need & have needed a playmaker at the CB position for a while now. Jjo looks to be that guy (most of the time) Kj does not.

But there are different kinds of Corners, just like there are different kinds of QBs. You have some like Deon Sanders who came into the league making big plays. Then you've got those like Revis where it took 3 or 4 years before they earned recognition as arguably one of the best in the game.

Then you've got those like Asomugha, took a couple of years, then people just stopped throwing his way. Not because Asomugha was a threat to intercept the ball & take it to the house. But because it was a wasted play. The guy was not going to catch the ball.

That's where I see Kj going. There are several games this year that no one talked about Kj. It's my opinion that no one talks about him, because the ball was rarely thrown his way. He's not making big plays, he's not intercepting the ball, but he's playing solid coverage & unless you're a coach grading players, you probably won't notice.

Kj played the first series yesterday, we got the quick turnover, then you didn't see Kj for the rest of the half. Once Orlovsky realized Allen can't cover Wayne, he went to Wayne with regularity. Short outs, come backs, Allen gives up all the underneath stuff.

Kj came back in the second half & Reggie didn't catch a ball on Kj till the final drive. If you go back & watch the game, it's tight coverage & DanO deciding to go somewhere else.

I'm not saying he's playing at an elite level. I'm saying he is playing at a high level with a high level of consistency.

We're complaining about 2 catches he allowed.

76Texan
12-23-2011, 04:08 PM
I hope you're not serious,lol. Its called ball skills. Yes the db is taught from an early ae to locate the ball when the wr turns and looks for the ball or he shows his hands. Now when a qb throws the back shoulder pass to perfection, its not a lot that can be done, but on those last 2 plays by wayne, his lack of ball skills showed. Just like the julio jones play in which jones just dropped the game tying td. Reggie wayne isn't a rookie wr who isn't used to catching the ball in traffic.

I hope you're not serious.

Personally, I am serious, because I've heard an NFL coach talk about it, and I have seen segment in a playbook talk about it.
It wasn't elaborated, but it was clear that you cannot attempt to locate the ball all the time.
There are times to play the earlobe, and the eyes of the receiver.

Even Mayock talked about how JJo tried to peek to locate the ball and got burned by Steve Smith in the Panthers game.

76Texan
12-23-2011, 04:13 PM
That skinny post was on Demps.
Texans were in 1/4 on that side with Cushing and McCain in underneath zone.
The slot receiver (Collie) squat short of the first down marker (basically, he was already double-teamed by Cushing and McCain).
Demps inexplicably stepped down right behind Cushing.
That's definitely a poor play by Demps (bone-head).

To put this game on KJ is the job of the haters; they are doing their job well.

Here's straight from the horse mouth:

Kubiak
(on what happened to the defense on the Colts’ last drive of the game):
"We jumped a route with about 50 seconds left that we don’t need to be jumping. Just make them throw it and tackle, so that’s discipline in what we’re doing."

This refers to Demps coming down away from his deep 1/4 responsibility as I mentioned.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Quotes-Kubiak-Friday-press-conference/6ecb54f3-9b01-4a6e-bdc3-6a943c666378

Some of you guys do need to learn more about football.
And this is not a personal jab, because I do try to learn more football all the time.

amazing80
12-23-2011, 04:14 PM
Here's straight from the horse mouth:

Kubiak
(on what happened to the defense on the Colts’ last drive of the game):
"We jumped a route with about 50 seconds left that we don’t need to be jumping. Just make them throw it and tackle, so that’s discipline in what we’re doing."

This refers to Demps coming down away from his deep 1/4 responsibility as I mentioned.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Quotes-Kubiak-Friday-press-conference/6ecb54f3-9b01-4a6e-bdc3-6a943c666378

Some of you guys do need to learn more about football.
And this is not a personal jab, because I do try to learn more football all the time.

Yup and my knock is wtf was Demps even doing in there? We move Quin back there and we bring in Manning and Demps is still on the mother fn field....man it just irritates me

76Texan
12-23-2011, 04:20 PM
Can't believe there are still people defending KJ. How many big Plays does be have to give up before people realize he is J Reeves all over again? Honestly in he last two years I can count on one hand how many times he has turned,ocatex the ball and made a play on the ball. They should move him to safety and see if he has anything there warranting him holding down a roster spot.

Anyone still defending this POS is just not willing to admit they are wrong.

You need to bring it to Wade Phillips.
He's the one who not only defended, but also praised Kareem Jackson in one of the recent press conference:

Conscientious (hard worker) and talented.

It's somewhere on the HoustonTexans.com website.

76Texan
12-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Yup and my knock is wtf was Demps even doing in there? We move Quin back there and we bring in Manning and Demps is still on the mother fn field....man it just irritates me

We like to put Quin on the TE (on the other side of the field on this play).

Demps has been doing a decent job, but he simply blew his assignment on this play.

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 05:45 PM
I don't get it.

He "praised" Careem, but he has playing 50% of the time under his defense, a clear reduction of 100% when he was a rookie.

I thought to point of progression to get better as you gain more experience.. not have playing time taken away from you.

Ephraim Salaam & Duane Brown shared time when Brown was a rookie.

Brisiel & Caldwell shared time, I think Caldwell's second season.

Allen & Kareem shared time last season as well.

thunderkyss
12-23-2011, 06:33 PM
Don't you see the problem there?

Brown shared time when he was a rookie, he became a full-fledged starter his 2nd year.

Caldwell, not a first round pick, shared time as a rookie and has been beaten out of the RG job since.

Allen was splitting time with McCain, Careem was a full time starter.. he's going backward. Action speaks louder than words, Phillips is saying one thing and doing another. Careem is going the opposite direction that Duane Brown did.

Next year, people will be talking about how much Kareem has improved. Instead of saying 76Texan was right in the first place.

Kinda like Meyers. Two years ago he was talking about how Meyers was not playing as bad as "everyone" said he was, & that he was actually one of, if not, our best linemen.

Texan_Bill
12-23-2011, 06:38 PM
Good thing we get patted down to enter Reliant. Otherwise, I might go all sniper on his azz.

chicagotexan2
12-23-2011, 08:53 PM
Good thing we get patted down to enter Reliant. Otherwise, I might go all sniper on his azz.

Don't with our sorry luck you'd hit jjo instead. Kareem is not a starter. Admit that he's your latest amobi and move on Rick.

SW H-TOWN
12-23-2011, 09:13 PM
Kareem is just horrible. After watching the game last night I truly believe that Brice McCain should be our number 2 CB. He is only one inch shorter and eight pounds lighter than #25. McCain played really well and made a hell of a play on Garcon if I remember correctly. Also, where the hell is Brandon Harris? He really must suck if he can't get on the field. They targeted Kareem Jackson and it worked.

GP
12-23-2011, 10:43 PM
What is funny is that Kareem tried to stick his arm in there against Wayne on the game-winning TD, just like Kareem did against Julio Jones.

Only difference is that Wayne did not D-R-O-P the pass like Jones did. Yeah, that's right: Eff what the official NFL stats say, Julio Jones D-R-O-P-P-E-D the ball and Wayne didn't. Result: One was a failed game-winning TD and the other was caught and won the game against us.

What else is funny: The Colts threw that pass to (a) The same spot that Matt Ryan did, and (b) against the same CB. Vance Joseph should have his ass FIRED for getting abused like that TWICE. It's HIS secondary, and he's got to know that teams are going to try to go deep on KJ and into that corner of the end zone...because Kareem has ZERO deep ball skills. He just can't do it. He has no ability to position himself and make a play on the ball, he just sticks his arm in there and looks up at the rafters of the ceiling and prays for help.

What NFL o-coord is going to target KJ on the last play of the game? All of them. Yet there he is: Alone and against a good WR in the corner of the end zone. Rinse, repeat. It's so effing simple, I can't believe it keeps happening. This is the muther-effing NFL and THIS **** keeps happening to us. It makes me sick to my stomach.

The last thing that is funny: Guys STILL riding Kareem's jock strap. This thread doesn't exist if Kareem is holding down his job properly. Where is this type of thread about JJ Watt? Brooks Reed? On and on and on....

Same old s____, different game. Different results, too. I haven't seen a guy get defended to this length, for having all this talent and "good work ethic," and no consistently GOOD results on the field since DAVID CARR. His curse lingers.

steelbtexan
12-24-2011, 12:18 AM
Anybody else notice Molden is starting for the Pats?

I've noticed that while he still stinks it appearrs that he's better than KJ.

leebigeztx
12-24-2011, 12:24 AM
I hope you're not serious.

Personally, I am serious, because I've heard an NFL coach talk about it, and I have seen segment in a playbook talk about it.
It wasn't elaborated, but it was clear that you cannot attempt to locate the ball all the time.
There are times to play the earlobe, and the eyes of the receiver.

Even Mayock talked about how JJo tried to peek to locate the ball and got burned by Steve Smith in the Panthers game.

Did you read my post? When jjo gave it up to smith, smith did show or turn, he was running. Joseph tried to locate the ball against a speed guy. Kareem has shown time after time like jacquez reeves that he doesn't ever read the wr hands or helmet. At least reeves would play the hands and break up the pass. Jackson can't do either and I don't need mayock to tell me. I can get the coaches copy and watch the guy.

I didn't say anywhere kareem hasn't improved, but he's still splitting time with a safety prospect like allen. If he were as good on the tape as you like to point out, he wouldn't split time with allen. In the offseason, they need a cb opposite joseph, no 2 ways about it. They're hiding the 2nd cb whether that's allen or jackson.

mussop
12-24-2011, 12:54 AM
You need to bring it to Wade Phillips.
He's the one who not only defended, but also praised Kareem Jackson in one of the recent press conference:

Conscientious (hard worker) and talented.

It's somewhere on the HoustonTexans.com website.

Wade Phillips is also the one that keeps splitting the time up with Allen and Jackson. Just admit Jackson sucks and has zero ball skills and save a little face here. Had he not been a 1st round pick I doubt he would still be getting on the field at this point.

mussop
12-24-2011, 01:02 AM
Next year, people will be talking about how much Kareem has improved. Instead of saying 76Texan was right in the first place.

Kinda like Meyers. Two years ago he was talking about how Meyers was not playing as bad as "everyone" said he was, & that he was actually one of, if not, our best linemen.

More likely he will be bench fodder for some other team that thinks that maybe they can get him to live up to his potential because of where he was drafted.

EllisUnit
12-24-2011, 08:10 AM
Next year, people will be talking about how much Kareem has improved. Instead of saying 76Texan was right in the first place.

Kinda like Meyers. Two years ago he was talking about how Meyers was not playing as bad as "everyone" said he was, & that he was actually one of, if not, our best linemen.

you and 76 make a cute KJ couple, it will be ashame to see this romance end when KJ is gone.

76Texan
12-24-2011, 10:37 AM
Anybody else notice Molden is starting for the Pats?

I've noticed that while he still stinks it appearrs that he's better than KJ.

First off, Merry Christmas to everybody!

Secondly, I will try to counter as many posts as I can before I have to get off the board.

Molden took McCourty's place in week 11 (KC) and 12 (PHI) when D.Mc suffered a mild shoulder injury.
I didn't watch those games, but the fact that Molden went back to the bench ought to tell us what we need to know.
(Looks like VY had 400 yards passing in week 13).

I have documented how McCourty had struggled this year when Belichik started treating him like a normal CB and doesn't protect him like last year.
Well, McCourty continued to struggle when he came back.
I watched 2 more games and he gave up all short of routes and a ton of yards (short, intermediate, and long.)
He also allowed a TD against Orvlosky (who went off for 353 yards.)
Against the Skins he gave up a couple of TD passes by Grossman.
So if we want to talk about regressing, this is the guy!

On the other hand, as we talked about rookie CBs, I had mentioned how Patrick Peterson suffered the same fate as Jackson even though his (Peterson's) safety help has been better.
I watched the Cowboys game, and Peterson was "abused" by Dez Bryant (including another TD given up by PP) all game long.

In 8 games that I've watched PP, he had already given up more TDs than Jackson (16-game rookie season).

I think I had made this point clear by now; that a rokkie left on an island will struggle.

If there's any high expectation for Jackson as an NFL-ready CB as an underclassman draft pick, it should have been reigned in from the start.
It was you guys who had that expectation; it wasn't me.

76Texan
12-24-2011, 11:00 AM
Did you read my post? When jjo gave it up to smith, smith did show or turn, he was running. Joseph tried to locate the ball against a speed guy. Kareem has shown time after time like jacquez reeves that he doesn't ever read the wr hands or helmet. At least reeves would play the hands and break up the pass. Jackson can't do either and I don't need mayock to tell me. I can get the coaches copy and watch the guy.


So now we're switching from locating the ball to reading the WR hands and helmet, LOL!

In that case, yes sir, Jackson did just that on this play.
Not just that, Jackson did pretty much exactly what he was taught when defending the fade route near the goal line.
(Note that different DB may adapt different techniques; ie. a tall CB vs a short CB, etc.)

Here are some links you (or anybody else) can follow and learn more about different techniques by different coaches.

This one is by RC Slocum, longtime Aggies HC.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8020391/defending-the-fade-route-on-the-goal-line

The main point here is as followed:

the defender should wheel towards the receiver and drive upfield with him with visual focus on his hands. When the receiver lifts his hands, the defender must immediately lift his own hands (inside hand) and prepare to drive it through the pocket (receiver’s hands). We stress trying to whack the receiver’s off arm. The defender must get the ball out of the pocket.


Driving through the pocket was what Jackson did; he just didn't manage to get to the ball.
And this is why I said I didn't defend KJ on this play (he didn't get to the ball).
But the technique was there; he did what he was supposed to do.


Before somebody starts to cry about jamming, read the following link; different coaches have different ideas about that. It depends on a lot of different things and it wasn't my point to open another can of worm.

http://www.jcfb.com/forum/messageview.aspx?catid=8&threadid=11082


Here, my point simply is that the CB shouldn't try to locate the ball.

That point is further illustrated here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20110929_how_do_you_stop_the_back_shoulder_fade

- Don’t look back for the ball. This is going to cause separation with the WR and that is all it takes down inside of the 10-yard line. Instead, focus on the inside hip of the WR once he is into the route stem. Let you eyes take you to the point of attack.

- “Play the pocket.” As I said above, don’t look back for the ball. Here, play on that inside hip and stick your hands in the “pocket” (in-between the WR’s arms). Don’t swat at the ball or rake down on the arm—and don’t panic.

76Texan
12-24-2011, 12:37 PM
Don't you see the problem there?

Brown shared time when he was a rookie, he became a full-fledged starter his 2nd year.

Caldwell, not a first round pick, shared time as a rookie and has been beaten out of the RG job since.

Allen was splitting time with McCain, Careem was a full time starter.. he's going backward. Action speaks louder than words, Phillips is saying one thing and doing another. Careem is going the opposite direction that Duane Brown did.

Let's get all the facts straight, shall we.

1. Brown started at the beginning of his rookie year; shared time with Salaam later on, then become a full-time starter from his second year on.
(Note: I made the right call here, too!
I suggested that the Texans should play Salaam and Brown in some sort of a rotation even before that season started. The Texans didn't follow my friendly advice until they found out that they need to slow down their hope to fast-track Brown.
I also called the Brown's pick before the draft.
I also said that Brown's is best in the run game, but needs to work on pass-pro - this is something that Lance Z and his partner John Harris was incorrect on until they were able to see more of Brown in TC.)

2. Allen did not split time with McCain.
McCain was moved to nickel back; he spelled CB once in a while for both Jackson and Allen.

3. There's no problem splitting time with Allen (about 55-45 in favor of Kareem and he's the starter.)
The Texans ranked #5 against the #2 receiver.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
You can see how we ranked against their #1 and other WRs as well (JJo and McCain).

More later. Got to run now.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
12-24-2011, 01:07 PM
Let's get all the facts straight, shall we.

1. Kareem Jackson ****ing sucks.

The end.

EllisUnit
12-24-2011, 04:29 PM
Let's get all the facts straight, shall we.

1. Brown started at the beginning of his rookie year; shared time with Salaam later on, then become a full-time starter from his second year on.
(Note: I made the right call here, too!
I suggested that the Texans should play Salaam and Brown in some sort of a rotation even before that season started. The Texans didn't follow my friendly advice until they found out that they need to slow down their hope to fast-track Brown.
I also called the Brown's pick before the draft.
I also said that Brown's is best in the run game, but needs to work on pass-pro - this is something that Lance Z and his partner John Harris was incorrect on until they were able to see more of Brown in TC.)

2. Allen did not split time with McCain.
McCain was moved to nickel back; he spelled CB once in a while for both Jackson and Allen.

3. There's no problem splitting time with Allen (about 55-45 in favor of Kareem and he's the starter.)
The Texans ranked #5 against the #2 receiver.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
You can see how we ranked against their #1 and other WRs as well (JJo and McCain).

More later. Got to run now.

Is sombody trying to pat his own back ? I have one for you i called jackson a bust last season and so far i look more right :kingkong: . However i know you'll disagree, which is fine.

My only thought is that if allen is SO bad and KJ is SO good then why do they split time ?

I give KJ till the end of his rookie contract and then he is gone. Seems like only 3 of yall on this whole board see something in KJ that the rest of us dont see. Why is that ?

Carr Bombed
12-24-2011, 04:54 PM
Next year, people will be talking about how much Kareem has improved. Instead of saying 76Texan was right in the first place.

Kinda like Meyers. Two years ago he was talking about how Meyers was not playing as bad as "everyone" said he was, & that he was actually one of, if not, our best linemen.

Yeah except regarding Kareem Jackson, 76 doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and is clearly wrong. Kareem Jackson ******* sucks and the only reason why he hasn't been beat like a drum this season is because of the improved from 7. He still gets beat when it matters though and when teams need a big play they still throw his way and find a way to get their top playmakers matched up against him.

HE SUCKS (period) and he's going to continue sucking....it's why as a first round pick he can't even beat out Jason Allen who honestly shouldn't be splitting time with Kareem any more, he should be our new starting #2 CB

And for Christ's sake... his name is MYERS.. For somebody who constantly tries to pimp that nut the blind squirrel found, one would think you'd atleast know how to spell his name by now.

thunderkyss
12-24-2011, 05:15 PM
We shall see.

EllisUnit
12-24-2011, 05:34 PM
We shall see.

:toropalm: most of us already have.

leebigeztx
12-24-2011, 09:38 PM
76texan, if u read my post, I said the db play hands and or the helmet. The really good wrs won't show u either until the ball is right there. Reggie wayne never gives the db any indication where the ball is until late. On a fade, as soon as he is turning towards the qb, the db should've be turning to locate the ball. I've watched wayne enough and we can back to that catch he had in the corner vs the texans a few yrs ago. He catches the fade at a high point, with his hands away from the body. The chance kareem would've had was to turn and jump. In that situation, how many routes could wayne run?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-0AYVDboA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I believe my eyes more than your quotes. He did 0 right on that play. You like videos so much, chew on this one.

wildroot
12-24-2011, 10:06 PM
I'm by no means a KJ fan but to be fair, Joseph has been getting lit up alot worse than KJ.

Carr Bombed
12-24-2011, 10:06 PM
76texan, if u read my post, I said the db play hands and or the helmet. The really good wrs won't show u either until the ball is right there. Reggie wayne never gives the db any indication where the ball is until late. On a fade, as soon as he is turning towards the qb, the db should've be turning to locate the ball. I've watched wayne enough and we can back to that catch he had in the corner vs the texans a few yrs ago. He catches the fade at a high point, with his hands away from the body. The chance kareem would've had was to turn and jump. In that situation, how many routes could wayne run?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-0AYVDboA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I believe my eyes more than your quotes. He did 0 right on that play. You like videos so much, chew on this one.

:toropalm: Why did I watch that play... Now I'm pissed off all over again. What a ****ty start to my Christmas vac.

Carr Bombed
12-24-2011, 10:09 PM
I'm by no means a KJ fan but to be fair, Joseph has been getting lit up alot worse than KJ.

Joseph is a probowl player though and has already proven his worth and ability in this league. Kburnt still needs to prove that he belongs.

I can live with mistakes by Joseph, because I know more often than not, he'll make the play.

foo82
12-24-2011, 10:30 PM
Joseph is a probowl player though and has already proven his worth and ability in this league. Kburnt still needs to prove that he belongs.

I can live with mistakes by Joseph, because I know more often than not, he'll make the play.

And here lies the issue with which I have problems with. Kjax for the most part plays solidly. He gives up some big plays and everyone just absolutely jumps on him. Jjoe, on the other hand, is almost entirely given a free pass. The bias from last year is still here, and most people still view it with the same pair of glasses.

Carr Bombed
12-24-2011, 10:34 PM
And here lies the issue with which I have problems with. Kjax for the most part plays solidly. He gives up some big plays and everyone just absolutely jumps on him. Jjoe, on the other hand, is almost entirely given a free pass. The bias from last year is still here, and most people still view it with the same pair of glasses.

:rolleyes: Yeah, sorry if I'm going to give a probowler a pass when he gets beat.

It'd be like going into a thread that was discussing how crappy Jacoby Jones is and then asking why people aren't upset with Andre Johnson if he has a couple of drops. It doesn't make any sense.

leebigeztx
12-24-2011, 10:44 PM
:toropalm: Why did I watch that play... Now I'm pissed off all over again. What a ****ty start to my Christmas vac.

I'm sorry, but I wanted to see the technique jackson was playing.

1. He didn't get a jam on wayne
2. He didn't recognize the route
3. When wayne turned to the qb, he didn't turn around.
4. When wayne jumped, he didn't jumped. Instead, he stayed down and measured waynes johnson.

EllisUnit
12-24-2011, 11:34 PM
And here lies the issue with which I have problems with. Kjax for the most part plays solidly. He gives up some big plays and everyone just absolutely jumps on him. Jjoe, on the other hand, is almost entirely given a free pass. The bias from last year is still here, and most people still view it with the same pair of glasses.

JoJo was solid last year for the bengals, JoJo has been solid this year. Cant compare the 2.

JoJo has ball skills, he has speed, he has instincts, and he knows how to cover WRs.

KJ has no ball skills, has no deep speed, has no instincts, and does not know how to cover WRs.

KJ has "looked" better this season, that is due to an awesome front 7, trust me when you get that much pressure it benefits the secondary. When we dont get pressure is when he is always getting beat our giving up a big play, take the last play of the colts game, no pressure and he gives up the game winning TD.

dtran04
12-24-2011, 11:42 PM
Unfortunately for the Texans, Joseph has been getting burnt just as much recently. Let's not forget he got beat BADLY on a play where Watt saved the day by knocking it down.

dream_team
12-24-2011, 11:46 PM
I trust Wade Phillip's opinion on defense 1000x more than you guys. If he thinks Kareem is our 2nd best corner, then I'll side with him.

If Kareem really does suck as much as you guys say, why is he still starting?

EllisUnit
12-24-2011, 11:47 PM
Unfortunately for the Texans, Joseph has been getting burnt just as much recently. Let's not forget he got beat BADLY on a play where Watt saved the day by knocking it down.

lets not forget where Julio dropped the game winner for atlanta and KJ was covering. I dont care what the stats say, i have the replay, KJ didnt touch the ball and julio dropped it. KJ never pulled his arm down. i mean we can talk about that if we want to talk about what ifs.

EllisUnit
12-24-2011, 11:48 PM
I trust Wade Phillip's opinion on defense 1000x more than you guys. If he thinks Kareem is our 2nd best corner, then I'll side with him.

If Kareem really does suck as much as you guys say, why is he still starting?

why is he splitting time with a street FA ?

buddyboy
12-25-2011, 12:30 AM
why is he splitting time with a street FA ?

I was under the impression you thought very highly of Allen. Why is he splitting time with KJ if "KJ has no ball skills, has no deep speed, has no instincts, and does not know how to cover WRs"?

Carr Bombed
12-25-2011, 12:40 AM
I was under the impression you thought very highly of Allen. Why is he splitting time with KJ if "KJ has no ball skills, has no deep speed, has no instincts, and does not know how to cover WRs"?

First round picks play. Why is Blaine Gabbert still starting games for the Jags? Why did Amobi start multiple seasons here?

I also think Allen is a decent player...I wouldn't just write him off as a street FA...I label him more as a "late bloomer" who's making the most of his second chance. I think he deserves his opportunity and if Jackson wasn't a first round pick he would've been given the job already.

Kareem Jackson has done some things well so I'm not going to totally pile on him. He's a good tackler and is physical when playing in run support. He just doesn't have the natural instincts to find the ball once it's thrown, his route recognition is sub par, and he doesn't have make up/closing speed if he happens to take a "misstep" when a receiver beats or confuses him on a route.

buddyboy
12-25-2011, 01:23 AM
First round picks play. Why is Blaine Gabbert still starting games for the Jags? Why did Amobi start multiple seasons here?

I also think Allen is a decent player...I wouldn't just write him off as a street FA...I label him more as a "late bloomer" who's making the most of his second chance. I think he deserves his opportunity and if Jackson wasn't a first round pick he would've been given the job already.

Kareem Jackson has done some things well so I'm not going to totally pile on him. He's a good tackler and is physical when playing in run support. He just doesn't have the natural instincts to find the ball once it's thrown, his route recognition is sub par, and he doesn't have make up/closing speed if he happens to take a "misstep" when a receiver beats or confuses him on a route.

I agree with most of this. I think Allen and Kareem make a good combo at number 2. They both offer something different, while they both have glaring weaknesses. That can be said about most number 2s though.

About being a first rounder though, there's also negatives that come with it. There's an expectation to perform. And when Kareem didn't perform, he was immediately labeled as a bust, whether you want to admit it or not. People have only looked at his negatives since day one of this season. He's played solidly enough for me to feel somewhat positive about his development. He IS a second year CB.

Wolf6151
12-25-2011, 01:41 AM
Let's remember that KJ was put into an impossible situation last year by a retarded coaching staff. No rookie CB should ever be thrown out there with terrible coaches and no mentor and expected to cover the other teams #1 WR, that's just a recipe for losing, which we did alot of. Remember last year Gibbs was teaching the CB's to shuffle not back pedal like they've learned all their football life so they were also having to unlearn old technique and learn new technique. That's like telling a right handed rookie QB to start all season and throw left handed. This last offseason was also unusual due to the lockout, no OTA's, and the new defensive coaching staff couldn't work with the players to teach new/proper technique again. So everyone had to learn through a shortened training camp. Considering the fact that KJ's growth as an NFL player was regressed his rookie year by terrible coaches and then stunted his 2nd season by no OTA's and coaching, I think he's doing pretty damn good. Now if he's still playing badly at this time next year when he's had a regular offseason of teaching and OTA's and a full training camp as well as a mentor and better coaching staff and time to learn and gain experience then yea let's look for someone better. I think he's vastly improved over last year. Remember Revis and Aso weren't great until about their 3rd season in the league either.

EllisUnit
12-25-2011, 09:07 AM
I was under the impression you thought very highly of Allen. Why is he splitting time with KJ if "KJ has no ball skills, has no deep speed, has no instincts, and does not know how to cover WRs"?

i think allen is better than KJ, but allen is no JoJo or Reevis. And it is true that allen was a street FA. Allen does give up plays, just like KJ, but allen gets way more turnovers than KJ. Allen has what 9-10 ints as a texan in a season and a half. thats damn good.

wildroot
12-25-2011, 10:24 AM
Allen has what 9-10 ints as a texan in a season and a half. thats damn good.

Seven (7)

wildroot
12-25-2011, 10:27 AM
why is he splitting time with a street FA ?

True, he was signed as a FA, but wasn't Allen a former 1st round pick a few years ago?

wildroot
12-25-2011, 10:41 AM
Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.

EllisUnit
12-25-2011, 10:48 AM
True, he was signed as a FA, but wasn't Allen a former 1st round pick a few years ago?

yeah he was, one that many claim is/was a bust. In Miami he got moved from CB to safety way to often to ever settle fully into one position, thats why i havent called him a bus, plus i like what i have seen from him since he's been here. 7 INTs in a season and a half is not half bad, especially for a guy who is splitting time.

EllisUnit
12-25-2011, 10:51 AM
Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.

hmmm the front 7 dont leave much time for the QB to look at the whole field, and JoJo is always on the opponenets #1 which is where the QB looks first, but when we dont get any pressure is when you see KJ get beat by the #2, #3 WRs. I can tell you its def not because he has his guy well covered.

thunderkyss
12-25-2011, 01:44 PM
Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.
I think you're right in that Kj is providing solid coverage, forcing the ball to go the other way. But just because Jjo's guy looks more open, Jjo's is there to make the play more often than not. When Kj's man is open, it's a completion more often than not. We've seen two last minute TDs thrown on KJ for a reason.

I'm one of the more patient fans when it comes to Kj, but he is not in Jjo's class yet. I think he's on track. Remember, Jjo's had been in the league since 2006, & his performance this year is surprising to everyone. Jjo's was also a 1st round pick.

While it was questionable that Jjo may have been Cincy's better corner, that argument didn't start until last year & they still let him go.

thunderkyss
12-25-2011, 01:52 PM
hmmm the front 7 dont leave much time for the QB to look at the whole field, and JoJo is always on the opponenets #1 which is where the QB looks first, but when we dont get any pressure is when you see KJ get beat by the #2, #3 WRs. I can tell you its def not because he has his guy well covered.

He was covering Reggie Wayne this last game. Only three balls were thrown his way (two completed) when covering Wayne. When Allen was on him they went to Wayne early & often.

INTs are nice, but I'd rather the QB not throw the ball that way at all.

Kj has a lot of work to do, I'm not saying he don't. But he's coming along fine.

& how many times are we seeing Kj getting beat by the 2s & 3s?

You can probably count the number of times on one hand for the whole season...

Well, maybe both hands.

EllisUnit
12-25-2011, 03:44 PM
He was covering Reggie Wayne this last game. Only three balls were thrown his way (two completed) when covering Wayne. When Allen was on him they went to Wayne early & often.

INTs are nice, but I'd rather the QB not throw the ball that way at all.

Kj has a lot of work to do, I'm not saying he don't. But he's coming along fine.

& how many times are we seeing Kj getting beat by the 2s & 3s?

You can probably count the number of times on one hand for the whole season...

Well, maybe both hands.

Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.

BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do **** but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.

thunderkyss
12-25-2011, 04:23 PM
Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.


I'm not saying that Kj has earned that status, I'm saying it looks like he will. Wayne is no scrub & Kj covered him very well.

I've stated in another post, when Kj's guy is opened, it's most likely a completion. But I also stated his guy is rarely opened. He needs to get better, be more consistent.

I don't think he's perfect by any means, but I think he's developing well as an NFL CB. He will never be the guy who gets a lot of INTs, but I think he'll be a shutdown corner soon.


BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do **** but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.

Cromartie got his ass whooped against the Giants. He's been doing this for 6 years & many (not me) consider him to be a good corner..... maybe an upgrade over Kareem, even though Kareem has not had a game that bad this year.

We've got the #3 pass defense in the league, surely Kj has something to do with that.

He's not perfect, he'll still get beat at inopportune times. He should be a clear cut starter in his second year. For whatever reason, he is not. But I think he's getting better.

Rey
12-25-2011, 05:16 PM
Just because the ball isn't thrown a corners way doesn't always mean they are covering well. They showed some clips from the colts game on espn and orvlosky made some bad decisions. The other receiver was open and he went after jjo anyways. Sometimes qbs make bad reads, sometimes the coverage dictates where the ball is thrown, sometimes qbs stay away from certain guys. As far as kareem goes, he's been ok. If I had my way wed be challenging him with better players in the off season though because I do believe we can get better there. I don't think he's been so good that you pencil him in as the guy there for the next few years.

Lots

EllisUnit
12-25-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm not saying that Kj has earned that status, I'm saying it looks like he will. Wayne is no scrub & Kj covered him very well.

I've stated in another post, when Kj's guy is opened, it's most likely a completion. But I also stated his guy is rarely opened. He needs to get better, be more consistent.

I don't think he's perfect by any means, but I think he's developing well as an NFL CB. He will never be the guy who gets a lot of INTs, but I think he'll be a shutdown corner soon.



Cromartie got his ass whooped against the Giants. He's been doing this for 6 years & many (not me) consider him to be a good corner..... maybe an upgrade over Kareem, even though Kareem has not had a game that bad this year.

We've got the #3 pass defense in the league, surely Kj has something to do with that.

He's not perfect, he'll still get beat at inopportune times. He should be a clear cut starter in his second year. For whatever reason, he is not. But I think he's getting better.

yes we have the #3 pass defense. the front 7 can contribute to that more than the secondary. Kind of like last season when the pass defense was so horrible it made the run defense look good.

You have to admit that our guys up front dont leave much time for QBs to find the open guys. So that alone is helping the pass defense.

thunderkyss
12-25-2011, 06:26 PM
yes we have the #3 pass defense. the front 7 can contribute to that more than the secondary. Kind of like last season when the pass defense was so horrible it made the run defense look good.

You have to admit that our guys up front dont leave much time for QBs to find the open guys. So that alone is helping the pass defense.

I agree both ways. The lack of a pass rush last year made Kareem look a lot worse than he was. Other than the falling down thing, he looked good in coverage, as good as you'd expect from a rookie corner unless you drafted Deon Sanders or Charles Woodson.

I'm not blaming everything on the safeties either, but there were times when they made him look worse than what he was.

This year, the pass rush is helping him out, never said otherwise, but Kareem's coverage, Jjo, & better play from the safeties is also helping the front 7. QBs are having to go through their progression, their double guessing themselves, and aren't nearly as quick to get rid of the ball as they were last year.

EllisUnit
12-25-2011, 06:38 PM
I agree both ways. The lack of a pass rush last year made Kareem look a lot worse than he was. Other than the falling down thing, he looked good in coverage, as good as you'd expect from a rookie corner unless you drafted Deon Sanders or Charles Woodson.

I'm not blaming everything on the safeties either, but there were times when they made him look worse than what he was.

This year, the pass rush is helping him out, never said otherwise, but Kareem's coverage, Jjo, & better play from the safeties is also helping the front 7. QBs are having to go through their progression, their double guessing themselves, and aren't nearly as quick to get rid of the ball as they were last year.

yep the front 7 help the secondary and vice versa. IMHO i just see to many coverage mistakes on KJs part, and he lacks the speed to keep up with deep threat WRs. Noone can deny that. I will say he is playing better than last season, but i'm still not impressed. To me i think they should of turned KJ into a safety and left GQ at CB. I think KJ has all the tools to be a very good NFL safety just dont think he will ever be a starting CB, thats just my opinion.

thunderkyss
12-25-2011, 06:54 PM
Just because the ball isn't thrown a corners way doesn't always mean they are covering well. They showed some clips from the colts game on espn and orvlosky made some bad decisions. The other receiver was open and he went after jjo anyways. Sometimes qbs make bad reads, sometimes the coverage dictates where the ball is thrown, sometimes qbs stay away from certain guys. As far as kareem goes, he's been ok. If I had my way wed be challenging him with better players in the off season though because I do believe we can get better there. I don't think he's been so good that you pencil him in as the guy there for the next few years.

Lots

I hear ya... But I'm going mostly on what I see. Because Kareem gets so much slack, I spend a lot of my time watching him. Not very easy to do watching TV, but in this game the angles they showed most plays, you could see the CBs a lot.

When I'm at the games, I'm watching Jacoby (for the same reason) & Kj. Kj's coverage skills are pretty damn good. Changing directions, very good. getting his hands on the ball, muy mal. Timing his hits.... not very good.

Jacoby, not very physical for his size, runs pretty good routes, & I don't think anyone can really cover him.... he just can't catch the ball.

buddyboy
12-25-2011, 11:54 PM
Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.

BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do **** but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.

Why is it that KJ is being protected by the front 7, but it doesn't go the same way for Allen? KJ only succeeds because of the help around him, but Allen forces turnovers and makes big plays (no mention of the defense as a whole).

EllisUnit
12-26-2011, 10:47 AM
Why is it that KJ is being protected by the front 7, but it doesn't go the same way for Allen? KJ only succeeds because of the help around him, but Allen forces turnovers and makes big plays (no mention of the defense as a whole).

buddy i am going off of what allen has done this season and last season, allen was out playing KJ and still creating turnovers last season when we had no pressure all season long. The whole secondary is now benefiting from the front 7 play if you have read all my posts in this thread i said the whole secondary is getting help from the front 7, not just KJ.

buddyboy
12-26-2011, 12:57 PM
buddy i am going off of what allen has done this season and last season, allen was out playing KJ and still creating turnovers last season when we had no pressure all season long. The whole secondary is now benefiting from the front 7 play if you have read all my posts in this thread i said the whole secondary is getting help from the front 7, not just KJ.

I completely agree with this entire post. Allen outplayed KJ last year. The front 7 got better this season. Both CBs benefited from the improvement. This includes JJo.

Then, I'll add my own statement: with the pressure, both KJ and Allen are contributing on defense to give us the defensive ranking we have now. KJ is not on the receiving end only of our top defense, and he is not pulling us down. He is contributing. As is Allen.

EllisUnit
12-26-2011, 03:04 PM
Then, I'll add my own statement: with the pressure, both KJ and Allen are contributing on defense to give us the defensive ranking we have now. KJ is not on the receiving end only of our top defense, and he is not pulling us down. He is contributing. As is Allen.

Yes they are both contributing on defense and both have done a pretty good job actually. The ONLY reason i attack KJ the way i do is because of the certain few who always attack J. Allen who is also far from perfect. I will admith Allen is no shut down CB, but i cant stand how some people refuse to see some of the mistakes that KJ makes, and they always look for excuses.

My hatred for KJ is not as bad as everyone thinks infact if not for certain people on here i would actually show more support for him, but we all know when he makes a mistake and i cant stand to see people defend a player with B.S excuses all the time.

thunderkyss
12-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Yes they are both contributing on defense and both have done a pretty good job actually. The ONLY reason i attack KJ the way i do is because of the certain few who always attack J. Allen who is also far from perfect. I will admith Allen is no shut down CB, but i cant stand how some people refuse to see some of the mistakes that KJ makes, and they always look for excuses.

My hatred for KJ is not as bad as everyone thinks infact if not for certain people on here i would actually show more support for him, but we all know when he makes a mistake and i cant stand to see people defend a player with B.S excuses all the time.

To be fair, I think it's only 1 person.

For the last 4 or 5 games, I've actually been commenting on Allen's improvement.

& I've never said Kj is perfect.

I don't agree with those who say he doesn't have speed to stay with receivers on the deep routes... I think that's what you said. He's got the speed... he has no make-up speed, if he's beat, it's over. He has poor ball skills. But speed, he's got enough speed to play the position.

EllisUnit
12-26-2011, 03:36 PM
To be fair, I think it's only 1 person.

For the last 4 or 5 games, I've actually been commenting on Allen's improvement.

& I've never said Kj is perfect.

I don't agree with those who say he doesn't have speed to stay with receivers on the deep routes... I think that's what you said. He's got the speed... he has no make-up speed, if he's beat, it's over. He has poor ball skills. But speed, he's got enough speed to play the position.

yes he has the speed, but if he losses the WR for 1 second and the WR gets behind him he is toast, most CBs can kick it into another gear if they get beat deep, but KJ cant. To me that is a downfall, thats why i think KJ would be a really really good NFL safety.

foo82
12-27-2011, 02:06 PM
Well..haven't really attacked ALlen since the Dolphins game. But, I have been critical of Jjoe lately. I still don't get why he gets a free pass. Kjax has been consistent most of the season and gave up a few plays, then the boards completely blows up. I've probably seen JJoe give up more plays then I have seen Kjax.

Nawzer
12-27-2011, 02:19 PM
I don't know if there is any merit to this, but to me it seems like KJ plays well when it's not a goal line situation like it was last week against the Colts. He seems to make more plays in the middle of the field. I think that's where I would use him more instead of goal line defense. He's a good tackler but I think Jason Allen should be playing more in those red zone situations.

Hervoyel
12-27-2011, 02:25 PM
I find myself wondering if we take KJ in a reality where we have a real DC and not Frank Bush pretending to be a DC.

Rey
12-27-2011, 02:40 PM
Kareem hasn't been terrible. If it was up to me though wed be adding another talented corner to the mix this off season though. He's not playing all the snaps so its hard to get a true grasp on him as a full time player. Limits his chances for mistakes and limits his chances to make plays. Allen may be gone this off season if texans don't want to make a bigger commitment to him. Personally I don't feel comfortable just handing the full time job to kj. I expect texans to take a corner in the draft with the talent to challenge kj, harris, carmichael. Mccain is not a full time starter so I didn't include him. Maybe mcmannis wakes up but I doubt it.

thunderkyss
12-27-2011, 02:51 PM
Kareem hasn't been terrible. If it was up to me though wed be adding another talented corner to the mix this off season though. He's not playing all the snaps so its hard to get a true grasp on him as a full time player. Limits his chances for mistakes and limits his chances to make plays. Allen may be gone this off season if texans don't want to make a bigger commitment to him. Personally I don't feel comfortable just handing the full time job to kj. I expect texans to take a corner in the draft with the talent to challenge kj, harris, carmichael. Mccain is not a full time starter so I didn't include him. Maybe mcmannis wakes up but I doubt it.

I might play around in FA, see what we can get. Maybe take another flyer. But I think Harris was still a good pick & if it weren't for Kj & Allen showing improvement, he'd already be on the field.

I don't think we'll be keeping Allen next year either, but if Kj is splitting time with Harris then something is definitely not right... with Kj or the coaching staff.

We've probably seen the last of McMannis. Harris & McCain will probably be fighting for the nickel spot.

EllisUnit
12-27-2011, 03:34 PM
I might play around in FA, see what we can get. Maybe take another flyer. But I think Harris was still a good pick & if it weren't for Kj & Allen showing improvement, he'd already be on the field.

I don't think we'll be keeping Allen next year either, but if Kj is splitting time with Harris then something is definitely not right... with Kj or the coaching staff.

We've probably seen the last of McMannis. Harris & McCain will probably be fighting for the nickel spot.

I think they will keep Allen, he wont be a big commodity on the FA market and we can keep him here cheap. He is solid depth and can jump in and start IF needed.

76Texan
12-27-2011, 11:27 PM
76texan, if u read my post, I said the db play hands and or the helmet. The really good wrs won't show u either until the ball is right there. Reggie wayne never gives the db any indication where the ball is until late. On a fade, as soon as he is turning towards the qb, the db should've be turning to locate the ball. I've watched wayne enough and we can back to that catch he had in the corner vs the texans a few yrs ago. He catches the fade at a high point, with his hands away from the body. The chance kareem would've had was to turn and jump. In that situation, how many routes could wayne run?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-0AYVDboA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I believe my eyes more than your quotes. He did 0 right on that play. You like videos so much, chew on this one.

Leebig, if you read my posts carefully, the only thing I disagree with you was the part about the DB turning (back) toward the QB to locate the ball.

In one of the link I provided, a coach had implied that it would (nice) if the DB can do that; however, there are many times he cannot afford to.

In that case (which is this one), the CB plays the ear lobe (the helmet) and/or the eyes of the receiver.
They give clue to where the ball would arrive.

The hands can be deceptive, as in this case, where Wayne started by extending his arms forward (hinting of a low ball) but then brought the hands up to catch the ball at the high point.

At any rate, my main contention was that the CB should only turn back to look for the ball only he's in a very good position (which is very rare playing man on an island near the goal line).

The next point that I contend was that Jackson played the technique (hand in the pocket) correctly.
I will revisit it when I pull up your next quote.
But first let me recap a whole bunch of plays I reviewed this week around the league in the red zone.

76Texan
12-27-2011, 11:34 PM
First let me recap that last play, the TD to Wayne:

Ball just inside the 2;
Wayne split just outside the numbers.
KJ played about 2 yards off; outside leverage.

Your link no longer works, but I found another one here:

http://sportshl.com/football/Wayne_s_in_for_the_TD/1117337

I hope people can see the point I wanted to make; that KJ played the ear lobe and the eyes, then reach his hand in between Wayne's to try to rip off the pocket.
He didn't get to the ball, and that was his failure, but he did compete very well.

If need to, I can take screen shots to show that his left hand was very close to Wayne's face mask; it wasn't that far off from the ball.
Wayne was able to turn and shield the ball away just enough to complete the catch.

76Texan
12-27-2011, 11:53 PM
I'm sorry, but I wanted to see the technique jackson was playing.

1. He didn't get a jam on wayne
2. He didn't recognize the route
3. When wayne turned to the qb, he didn't turn around.
4. When wayne jumped, he didn't jumped. Instead, he stayed down and measured waynes johnson.

3. Along with the other posts, I will now show many plays that I've reviewed to counter these points about technique (keeping in mind that #3 is the main contention).

In none of the plays that I'm about to mention show a CB with any real chance of turning around when the receiver turns to the QB.

1. In very few instances that we find a CB trying the jam, all failed.
IMO, I don't think it's a good idea to jam near the goal line in man coverage.
(It makes sense in zone.) In man coverage, the receiver can work off the jam to create separation (he doesn't need much).

2. I disagree that Jackson didn't recognize the route; he played the receiver better than most, if not all the CBs (shortly, I will be bringing up all the plays near the goal line in the games I've reviewed so far.)

There's the fade toward the side line and the fade forward into the corner that the CB had to contend with (after he had made sure that he doesn't get beat on a slant or any inside route; and the whirl route). There's also the possibility that the receiver would run down the side line but then whirl back to the inside along the base line. (There's one example that will follow, in the Cowboys game where Jenkins gave up a TD. This one shows that turning back to look at the ball can get a CB beat.)

4. It's not always a good idea to try to jump, IMO.
The main thing is for the CB to play through the pocket.
He can always wait for the receiver to come down with the ball and pry it out.
A CB, especially a short one, is not going to outjump the receiver.
I'm not going to contest this point, however, except for the idea that if the CB wants to jump, he also needs to be in an excellent position to do so.

76Texan
12-27-2011, 11:59 PM
OK, here are some of my findings:

The Packers vs the Bears have some very good examples.

Fist qtr

Ball at CHI 2 (10:29) (Shotgun) 12-A.Rodgers pass short left to 88-J.Finley for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Rodgers-finds-Finley-in-the-end-zone/6426b0e9-d50c-4353-92a3-4becf33ee96e

Here, the TE split wide about 4-5 yards near the side line.
The LB played outside technqiue to take away the fade.
He was about 3 yards away from the TE;
No jamming.
With a quick double move, the TE got enough separation for a quick slant before the inisde LB can arrive.

A CB like Jackson also has to worry about this route, especially that he's on an island and cannot expect help from a LB or a safety.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:01 AM
2nd Qtr

1-2-CHI 2 (:18) (Shotgun) 12-A.Rodgers pass short left to 89-J.Jones for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Packers-strike-before-halftime-with-Jones-TD/a0fa98f2-01a7-4dd1-aef8-e8e8d2cbb736

Ball just outside the 2.
Receiver Jones split outside the number.
CB played about 3 yards away, with slight inside leverage.
Again, no jamming, quick slant for a TD before the safety arrived.

Same as the play in the post above.
The CB had to account for the slant.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:05 AM
3rd qtr

2-7-CHI 7 (1:57) 12-A.Rodgers pass short left to 89-J.Jones for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/James-Jones-catches-2nd-TD/90da62c1-19d5-426c-94c8-6c8d5c45ec56

Receiver Jones split just outside the number.
CB played about 4 yards away, with outside leverage.

There were Safety and LB help in the middle.
Again, no jamming.

Fade route;
CB was nowhere near to be able to get into the pocket of the receiver.

Most similar play (but with inside help from LB and safety while KJ had no help.)

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:06 AM
4th qtr

1-2-CHI 2 (14:57) 12-A.Rodgers pass short left to 87-J.Nelson for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Nelson-catches-Rodgers-5th-TD-pass-of-the-night/72fe52fc-32f1-41d8-8b81-327fbacb8ce0


Ball just outside the 2.
Receiver Nelson split outside the numbers.
CB played 3 yards off receiver; inside leverage.
No jamming; quick slant before safety and LB arrived.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:16 AM
Panthers vs Bucs week 16

1st qtr

1-4-CAR 4 (14:14) 5-J.Freeman pass incomplete short left to 17-A.Benn for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.buccaneers.com/multimedia/videos/Benn-4-yard-TD-catch/a2a45cd8-1fb6-463a-af3e-8f2b697a5581

Receiver in tight split, about 2-3 yards inside the numbers.

CB played about 4 yards off, tried a weak jam just inside the goal line.
Receiver fought it off, got the CB to open up his hip for an easy release and a TD in the corner.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:23 AM
This has nothing to do with defending in the red zone.
I've still been following McCourty's continous struggle in his soph year as Belichik treats him as a regular CB without babysitting (as he was in his rookie year.)

Dolphins vs Pats week 16

McCourty gave up a 37yd pass that could have been a long TD if the QB had thrown the ball to the receiver in stride.

....

He then gave up a 49 yd pass.

...

On another play, this one from the Pats 44 yd line, the QB underthrew a ball near the goal line, McCourty intercepted the ball.
Watch to see if you agree that McCourty had been beaten but the QB put up a floater that was way short.
The WR Hartline had at least two yards on McCourty (per the announcer).

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8255f2f8/McCourty-INT

.....

On an all-out blitz, McCourty was left on an island and was burned by Marshall for 41.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:26 AM
3-1-NE 1 (6:36) 8-M.Moore pass short left to 31-C.Clay for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8255d80a/Clay-TD-catch

On this pass play to the FB (who lined up near the LOS), neither CB put on a jam.

McCourty played a little less than 2 yards from the receiver; the other CB a hair further.

This play was only to demonstrate that the jam is not a requirement for a CB.
To say that somehow Jackson was terrible in his technique because he didn't jam simply does'nt make sense to me.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:32 AM
Giants vs Jets week 16

3-2-NYJ 2 (11:59) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete short middle to 88-H.Nicks (24-D.Revis).

Ball just outside the 2.
Receiver Nicks lined up about 2-3 yards outside the numbers on the right of the formation.

Revis played almost 3 yards off him, never jammed.
He concentrated on the receiver, never looked into the backfield.

On the quick slant, Revis mirrored and followed Nicks.
Since the receiver was between him and the ball, it was very difficult for him to see the ball.

The only thing he can tell when he turned to follow Nicks is that Eli was about to throw the slant.
He can't tell exactly where the ball is going to be when it arrives.

As the WR caught the ball, Revis reach around with his left arm to pull on Nicks left arm, seperating him from the ball.
A throw more to the inside where Nicks can fully extend for the ball or lunge for it would have been hard to defend.
As it was, Revis made a great play.

The keys here are (1) Revis never jammed the receiver, (2) he played the receiver's eyes and helmet, and (3) since he couldn't reach into the pocket, he pulled on the arm of the receiver.
He didn't look to locate the ball (because he can't); he located the ball by staying close to the receiver, reads thru the helmet, and guessed where the ball is as the receiver extended his arms to catch it.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:36 AM
These plays continue to show that jamming is not in the card in many situations neat the goal line.

4th Qtr

1-8-NYG 8 (9:36) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 6-M.Sanchez pass incomplete short right to 81-D.Keller.

On this play, the X receiver (on the right of the formation) split about 3 yards outside the number.

The LCB #23 Webster played inside leverage and didn't jam.
He simply back-pedaled and turned to follow the receiver on an outside release.
The play didn't come to him, however.

......

2-8-NYG 8 (9:35) (Shotgun) 6-M.Sanchez pass short left to 10-S.Holmes to NYG 1 for 7 yards (23-C.Webster).

On this play, the X receiver (again, on the right of the formation) split a couple of yards outside the number.

The LCB #26 played inside leverage and didn't jam either.
He simply turned and run with the receiver on an inside release.
(There was a safety blitz but the LB dropped back to help underneath in the hook/curl area.)
The play didn't come to his side.

3-1-NYG 1 (9:35) 6-M.Sanchez FUMBLES (Aborted) at NYG 1, RECOVERED by NYG-57-J.Williams at NYG 0. Touchback.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 12:58 AM
Cowboys vs Eagles

2nd Qtr

2-5-DAL 5 (:18) 7-M.Vick pass incomplete short left to 10-D.Jackson [94-D.Ware]. Pass thrown out of the left corner of the end zone.

Check to see how the Cowboys protected Jenkins in the redzone (almost a triple team).
The receiver D. Jackson lined up about a yard outside the numbers and a couple of yards behind the LOS.
The RCB Jenkins was about 3 yards away from the receiver, in the shuffle, playing outside leverage.

(sorry, there was no video available, but I can provide screen shots if anybody is interested.)
....


3-5-DAL 5 (:10) 7-M.Vick pass short middle to 18-J.Maclin for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Pass complete back of the end zone on a slant.

The Cowboys tried a double team here and it still failed (or at least the CB Jenkins thought that he would get help in the middle.)

Again, no jam.
And this one also shows a different route that the receiver can run.


http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/multimedia/videos/Maclin-5-yard-TD-Catch/88d8b5dc-5615-4732-b1ad-352c1e0fb8df

Jenkins was in the shuffle and gave up a free inside release.

Against a CB who plays head-up like Jackson, the receiver can get an outside release, ran along the side line and turned back inside along the base line just the same.

This is where I don't think turning around to look for the ball is a great idea (unless the CB is in excellent position where he can "feel" the receiver and pin him really close to the side line for example.)

76Texan
12-28-2011, 01:04 AM
Same game.

1-4-PHI 4 (:12) (Shotgun) 7-S.McGee pass short right to 19-M.Austin for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Pass complete on Square Out.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8256377a/Austin-prevents-the-shutout

The receiver Austin was in the slot, covered by the nickel #21 Hansen.

Hansen played bump and run as Austin lined up closest to the LOS.

A quick jam gave Austin the natural separation for the square out.
Hansen never had a chance at locating the ball even if he wanted to.
.....

On this play, Asomugha was covering the Z receiver #81 Robinson on the other side of the field.

Robinson lined up on the inside of the numbers.

Asomugha was right on the LOS (less than 2 yards off the receiver) but never jammed as Robinson ran a slant.

mussop
12-28-2011, 02:13 AM
4. It's not always a good idea to try to jump, IMO.
The main thing is for the CB to play through the pocket.
He can always wait for the receiver to come down with the ball and pry it out.

That's where I stopped reading. :spit:

thunderkyss
12-28-2011, 07:04 AM
First let me recap that last play, the TD to Wayne:

Ball just inside the 2;
Wayne split just outside the numbers.
KJ played about 2 yards off; outside leverage.

Your link no longer works, but I found another one here:

http://sportshl.com/football/Wayne_s_in_for_the_TD/1117337

I hope people can see the point I wanted to make; that KJ played the ear lobe and the eyes, then reach his hand in between Wayne's to try to rip off the pocket.
He didn't get to the ball, and that was his failure, but he did compete very well.

If need to, I can take screen shots to show that his left hand was very close to Wayne's face mask; it wasn't that far off from the ball.
Wayne was able to turn and shield the ball away just enough to complete the catch.

I do appreciate your takes. I do understand & like to learn all the techniques & what not.

But the point here, is that Kj had an opportunity to make a play & he failed. When the ball is in the air, more often than not, he fails to make the play.

So regardless if he played it correctly (which I think he didn't. Man to man with Reggie Wayne with that much space in the end zone, there is no way Wayne should have got off the line as clean as he did. I'd much rather take a PI, than to give up the fade)..... there was a moment when he was called on to make a play & he didn't.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by 76Texan
4. It's not always a good idea to try to jump, IMO.
The main thing is for the CB to play through the pocket.
He can always wait for the receiver to come down with the ball and pry it out.
A CB, especially a short one, is not going to outjump the receiver.
I'm not going to contest this point, however, except for the idea that if the CB wants to jump, he also needs to be in an excellent position to do so.

That's where I stopped reading. :spit:

Well, show me all the fade routes where you see a CB play man-up and jump then you can laugh all you want.

I will try to find some with the same situation.
So far, I haven't.
But on one of the play I've shown, the CB played off-man and couldn't even get to the spot, let alone trying to jump.

Here it is again:

http://www.packers.com/media-center/...8-6c8d5c45ec56

Here's another one:

http://prod.www.chargers.clubs.nfl.com/media-vault/videos/Floyd-11-yard-TD-catch/219be378-042e-42e7-900e-6475f56eefdc

See how poorly the CB played the fade?

I know I have more.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 03:29 PM
I do appreciate your takes. I do understand & like to learn all the techniques & what not.

But the point here, is that Kj had an opportunity to make a play & he failed. When the ball is in the air, more often than not, he fails to make the play.

So regardless if he played it correctly (which I think he didn't. Man to man with Reggie Wayne with that much space in the end zone, there is no way Wayne should have got off the line as clean as he did. I'd much rather take a PI, than to give up the fade)..... there was a moment when he was called on to make a play & he didn't.

I never denied the fact Jackson didn't make the play.
I accepted that from the very beginning.

I'm only disagreeing with leebig about techniques.

I've shown you many of the plays I've seen from week 16 (I didn't skip any redzone plays - near the ten yard line or closer - in those games).
The vast majority of them were without the CB jamming the receiver.

As far as PI, I thought about it, but I'm not sure.
A PI would have given them the ball on the one yard line where they can run the ball with about 21-22 secs to go.
Maybe he should have gone for the PI, but perhaps he thought he had a good chance at the ball, and then it was too late.

On a side note, I listened to Lance Z just briefly yesterday.
I didn't catch the name of the guy who was on air with him.
At any rate, they were talking about how good the front 7 has been this year.
Lance Z mentioned that his dad (the O-line coach) said he'd never seen a front seven that play with such intensity on every play.

Then they talked a little about those guys and the reason why they are so good.
The emergence of JJ Watt and Barwin and Reed.
But also because of the improvement in the secondary.

And guess what, the other guy said "somebody with coach tapes" told him about the good play of a certain CB that helps the play of the front seven.
Guess whose name he mentioned.
Kareem Jackson.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 03:35 PM
Here are some more plays that show the CBs playing without jamming:

Bengals vs Cards

1st qtr

2-7-ARI 14 (6:59) (Shotgun) 14-A.Dalton pass short left to 89-J.Simpson to ARI 11 for 3 yards (31-R.Marshall).
Timeout #1 by CIN at 06:31.

3-4-ARI 11 (6:31) (Shotgun) 14-A.Dalton pass short left to 84-J.Gresham for 11 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Two consecutive plays with LCB Peterson play man but did not jam the receiver.
Passes were thrown to the other side on both occasion.

There was another occasion in the red zone where the CB didn't jam the receiver while playing on-man (near the LOS).
...

There was only one occasion when a CB tried to jam Fitz and gave up quick seperation (Fitz was wide open).
The QB threw the TD to another receiver J. King (who was also wide open).

1-2-CIN 2 (7:45) 19-J.Skelton pass short middle to 87-J.King for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d825622bc/QB-Skelton-to-TE-King-2-yd-pass-TD

thunderkyss
12-28-2011, 03:38 PM
And guess what, the other guy said "somebody with coach tapes" told him about the good play of a certain CB that helps the play of the front seven.
Guess whose name he mentioned.
Kareem Jackson.


I don't doubt that. His coverage has been pretty solid, especially in man situations. I watched a bit of the Carolina game last night & Cam had to make a play several times, because he coverage was so good. Not just Kareem, but Kj was definitely doing some good that game.

jaayteetx
12-28-2011, 03:41 PM
man, this is a long thread...:includeme:

thunderkyss
12-28-2011, 03:44 PM
Here are some more plays that show the CBs playing without jamming:


I've got to see it. I'm not saying jamming is a necessity, but if I were as talented as Kj, playing that spot in that game, with less than 20(some)
seconds on the clock. JJ Watt pissed off... With a big patch of green behind me & towards the flag, I'm not giving up the fade, that is the most difficult route to cover (imo), he had no help out there.

We're already on the one yard line, I've got 5 yards to make Reggie work.

If I get a PI, no harm, no foul...... I'm already on the 1 a second or two is off the clock & maybe the next defensive/offensive call wouldn't put me in such a bad spot.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 03:50 PM
I've got to see it. I'm not saying jamming is a necessity, but if I were as talented as Kj, playing that spot in that game, with less than 20(some)
seconds on the clock. JJ Watt pissed off... With a big patch of green behind me & towards the flag, I'm not giving up the fade, that is the most difficult route to cover (imo), he had no help out there.

We're already on the one yard line, I've got 5 yards to make Reggie work.

If I get a PI, no harm, no foul...... I'm already on the 1 a second or two is off the clock & maybe the next defensive/offensive call wouldn't put me in such a bad spot.

We're going off-tangent here, but I think there's a big difference between the one yard line and the two yard line.

On the other point, what I saw was that the CBs jam more often when they are in zone coverage near the goal line.
Basically, what leebig said "that Jackson didn't play it right by not jamming" was not proven - or even disproved), because more often than not, the CBs didn't jam.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 03:56 PM
man, this is a long thread...:includeme:

You just prolong the thread by at least two posts, LOL!

76Texan
12-28-2011, 03:58 PM
I don't doubt that. His coverage has been pretty solid, especially in man situations. I watched a bit of the Carolina game last night & Cam had to make a play several times, because he coverage was so good. Not just Kareem, but Kj was definitely doing some good that game.

Let's not forget, LanceZ was among those who thought Jason Allen should start (at the beginning of the season) due to his ball skill (from last season).

Texan_Bill
12-28-2011, 04:03 PM
Here it is again:

http://www.packers.com/media-center/...8-6c8d5c45ec56

Here's another one:

http://prod.www.chargers.clubs.nfl.com/media-vault/videos/Floyd-11-yard-TD-catch/219be378-042e-42e7-900e-6475f56eefdc

See how poorly the CB played the fade?

I know I have more.

Even the Packers don't know what the hell you're talking about!!

First Link
http://prod.static.packers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/nflimg/generic_notfound.jpg

Second Link is a bad example for anything because homeboy stumbles.

76Texan
12-28-2011, 04:30 PM
Even the Packers don't know what the hell you're talking about!!

First Link


That's weird. Let's try it again!


http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/James-Jones-catches-2nd-TD/90da62c1-19d5-426c-94c8-6c8d5c45ec56

76Texan
12-28-2011, 04:37 PM
And don't forget a link I've provided before on anotherfade route:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20110929_how_do_you_stop_the_back_shoulder_fade

thunderkyss
12-28-2011, 07:19 PM
We're going off-tangent here, but I think there's a big difference between the one yard line and the two yard line.

According to the play by play we were already on the 1.

big difference between the 1 & the .5 yard line...... I agree.


On the other point, what I saw was that the CBs jam more often when they are in zone coverage near the goal line.
Basically, what leebig said "that Jackson didn't play it right by not jamming" was not proven - or even disproved), because more often than not, the CBs didn't jam.

If I've got a front 7 like ours & a lot of space behind me, I'm jamming more often than not.

jtexas
12-28-2011, 08:52 PM
Skimming over the 23 pages of posts, are we really debating whether he is a good corner? The answer is no... god no.. hell no. Anyone that tries to debate his coverage skills is pulling a skip bayless and likes to argue by playing devils advocate.

Opposing qbs have a 60% completion rate and a 16 yard average. We are too good to have one guy "learn" on the field. A solid vet corner is our biggest FA need this offseason.

Texan_Bill
12-28-2011, 09:02 PM
According to the play by play we were already on the 1.

big difference between the 1 & the .5 yard line...... I agree.


18" v. 36".... Yeah, "That's we she said". ;)

In any event, (and you & most people know this) it could be the one inch line, but technically its still considered one yard.

leebigeztx
12-29-2011, 04:57 AM
76 texan, I don't mean to be rude, but when I posted the video of jackson, u go on a tangent about what another team and players do. I'm not talking about players on other teams, I'm talkng about jackson against wayne at the end of the colts game, that's it. Yes, I've seen cbs turn and look on a fade and intercept the pass because they played the show of the wr. I know u will continue to post useless videos of another team, but that has nothing to do with jackson and his lack of ball skills and route recognition.

EllisUnit
12-29-2011, 07:41 AM
76 texan, I don't mean to be rude, but when I posted the video of jackson, u go on a tangent about what another team and players do. I'm not talking about players on other teams, I'm talkng about jackson against wayne at the end of the colts game, that's it. Yes, I've seen cbs turn and look on a fade and intercept the pass because they played the show of the wr. I know u will continue to post useless videos of another team, but that has nothing to do with jackson and his lack of ball skills and route recognition.

Thats his crutch, he has always done that. When KJ does good, he compares him to the good ones, and when he does bad he blames it on everyone but KJ. I have gotten used to it, and it has actually become quite amusing.

silvrhand
12-29-2011, 10:46 AM
Thats his crutch, he has always done that. When KJ does good, he compares him to the good ones, and when he does bad he blames it on everyone but KJ. I have gotten used to it, and it has actually become quite amusing.

Ellis... do you not have unrealistic expectations though? CB/QB are the two hardest positions to come into the NFL with, I say we have to give him 3-4 years and see what we end up with.

Texan_Bill
12-29-2011, 11:04 AM
Ellis... do you not have unrealistic expectations though? CB/QB are the two hardest positions to come into the NFL with, I say we have to give him 3-4 years and see what we end up with.

As much as I criticize KJ it would be disingenuous for me or anyone to say that he hasn't had marked improvement. That said, I agree with you in developing over the next season or two...


G*D, that pained me to say that. :whew

beerlover
12-29-2011, 11:24 AM
This is exactly the type of mistake NFL teams struggle to avoid come draft day (drafting for need over value) that can lead to years of failed expectations on or off the field. The Texans were determined hell or high water they we're going to take a CB in the first round of the 2010 draft period. They took the safest possible player from a sound football program with measureables they required for position.

Now Kareem is a player in this league, who will always have shortcomings but will learn to mask or compensate for them as he grows with experience while evolving in system. His work ethic, size & physical nature will provide useful down the road & then, I'm hoping, for a similar discussion like one about Duane Brown.

thunderkyss
12-29-2011, 11:26 AM
Ellis... do you not have unrealistic expectations though? CB/QB are the two hardest positions to come into the NFL with, I say we have to give him 3-4 years and see what we end up with.

In college, he was not the kind of corner who intercepted the ball, or made big plays. He still provided solid coverage & played well at the line.

If you watch him now, it's the same thing. His ball skills are week. He doesn't appear to have "make-up" speed. His instincts (I think) are pretty good. He plays well at the line & this year I don't think he's been beat at the line (& when I say that, I mean if the receiver wants to go somewhere Kj doesn't want him to go, the receiver will either not get his way or they have to fight quite a bit to get there).

So right off the bat, when someone "rags" on Kj, the first thing I'm thinking is that he is not the type of CB that they are looking for. I don't think it's unrealistic for someone to expect Kj to do some of the things "their" type of CB do, like play the ball. Kj is pretty bad at playing the ball. Bad in the way that he may have never been taught to play the ball. Which as 76 has pointed out several times, it's completely plausible that he wasn't, but can still be considered a good CB......

...in college. I think at this level, for Kareem to be considered an elite CB, he's going to have to learn to play the ball. He can be a very good corner playing solid coverage, but in this league he to get better at stopping receivers from catching the ball.

I think he does a very good job of covering the receiver causing the QB to throw the ball somewhere else. But if he is ever beat, or if the QB decides to "force" it, Kj does very little to stop the ball from being caught.

The Atlanta game, we had a lengthy discussion about that final TD Julio dropped. Sure, I think Kj's presence messed with Julio's mind enough that the ball was dropped. But it was the same situation with Reggie Wayne in the endzone of the Indy game. Reggie Wayne, a better receiver caught that ball, regardless how hard Kj "touched" his elbow.

There was another play in that Indy game where DanO tried to force the ball to Wayne. Kj & Reggie were handfighting since the minute they left the line, so Wayne was definitely not open...... maybe DanO was trying to get a PI, but I doubt it...... it's DanO. So anyway, Wayne turns to catch the ball & Kj reaches around to knock it down.

That's what a good corner is supposed to do right? The problem here, is that Kj totally missed the ball. No Wayne did not catch it, he was all twisted up with Kj.... it was good effort, but Kj missed the ball. He's got to be able to get a hand on the ball (the way Quin does) if he's going to live up to his draft status.... if you ask me.

So, while I think EllisUnit is expecting Kj to be a type of CB he will never be, I don't think his expectations are too far out of whack.

steelbtexan
12-29-2011, 11:39 AM
HYe doesn't appear ti be falling down as much this yr. So I guess that's progress.

Even though he's still giving up game winning/almost winning touchdowns. Julio Jones/Wayne

EllisUnit
12-29-2011, 01:14 PM
In college, he was not the kind of corner who intercepted the ball, or made big plays. He still provided solid coverage & played well at the line.

If you watch him now, it's the same thing. His ball skills are week. He doesn't appear to have "make-up" speed. His instincts (I think) are pretty good. He plays well at the line & this year I don't think he's been beat at the line (& when I say that, I mean if the receiver wants to go somewhere Kj doesn't want him to go, the receiver will either not get his way or they have to fight quite a bit to get there).

So right off the bat, when someone "rags" on Kj, the first thing I'm thinking is that he is not the type of CB that they are looking for. I don't think it's unrealistic for someone to expect Kj to do some of the things "their" type of CB do, like play the ball. Kj is pretty bad at playing the ball. Bad in the way that he may have never been taught to play the ball. Which as 76 has pointed out several times, it's completely plausible that he wasn't, but can still be considered a good CB......

...in college. I think at this level, for Kareem to be considered an elite CB, he's going to have to learn to play the ball. He can be a very good corner playing solid coverage, but in this league he to get better at stopping receivers from catching the ball.

I think he does a very good job of covering the receiver causing the QB to throw the ball somewhere else. But if he is ever beat, or if the QB decides to "force" it, Kj does very little to stop the ball from being caught.

The Atlanta game, we had a lengthy discussion about that final TD Julio dropped. Sure, I think Kj's presence messed with Julio's mind enough that the ball was dropped. But it was the same situation with Reggie Wayne in the endzone of the Indy game. Reggie Wayne, a better receiver caught that ball, regardless how hard Kj "touched" his elbow.

There was another play in that Indy game where DanO tried to force the ball to Wayne. Kj & Reggie were handfighting since the minute they left the line, so Wayne was definitely not open...... maybe DanO was trying to get a PI, but I doubt it...... it's DanO. So anyway, Wayne turns to catch the ball & Kj reaches around to knock it down.

That's what a good corner is supposed to do right? The problem here, is that Kj totally missed the ball. No Wayne did not catch it, he was all twisted up with Kj.... it was good effort, but Kj missed the ball. He's got to be able to get a hand on the ball (the way Quin does) if he's going to live up to his draft status.... if you ask me.

So, while I think EllisUnit is expecting Kj to be a type of CB he will never be, I don't think his expectations are too far out of whack.

i do not expect him to be a shut down CB, all i want to see his him play the ball better, like you said he doesnt have good ball skills. and has no make up speed. And i can live with that and, as long as he is doing what he can.

I think KJ has greatly improved this year, i think the front 7 has helped KJ a lot this year as well. I just hate to hear B.S excuses/assumptions by certain people, everytime he messes up. He needs to take responsibilty every time he messes up, it will make him better in the long run IMO.

GP
12-29-2011, 01:30 PM
Ellis... do you not have unrealistic expectations though? CB/QB are the two hardest positions to come into the NFL with, I say we have to give him 3-4 years and see what we end up with.

I don't think I want to contemplate giving up on Kareem Jackson four years into his NFL life here. If that happens, we messed up in the first round of the 2009 draft...and we wasted four years trying to see if he grows into the role.

IMO, this comes down to the difference between Wade Phillips picking defensive players (in 2010) and his predecessors in the previous drafts. What's odd is that we've done fairly well with LB draft picks (Cushing, Ryans) in the pre-Phillips era, but the d-line and the secondary have always been what I feel a bit deficient in PURE talent at their positions.

Of course, this also begs the old "is it the player, the position, or the coaching?" argument too. (Sigh).

With Phillips at d-coord, it feel alike we have a great talent evaluator AND a great d-coord. So we're getting the right player, at the right position, and the coaching is top-notch too. Triple threat. Before now? Hit or miss. Risk taking. Gambling on guys. I think Kareem was a gamble; he needs to be a nickel CB and nobody wants to hurt his feelings with that sort of talk. But it is what it is--He does well when he's not alone, he's a great nickel guy IMO...because he can break off and go attack the shallow stuff that drifts his way. Staying one-on-one? Not so much.

EllisUnit
12-29-2011, 02:02 PM
I don't think I want to contemplate giving up on Kareem Jackson four years into his NFL life here. If that happens, we messed up in the first round of the 2009 draft...and we wasted four years trying to see if he grows into the role.

IMO, this comes down to the difference between Wade Phillips picking defensive players (in 2010) and his predecessors in the previous drafts. What's odd is that we've done fairly well with LB draft picks (Cushing, Ryans) in the pre-Phillips era, but the d-line and the secondary have always been what I feel a bit deficient in PURE talent at their positions.

Of course, this also begs the old "is it the player, the position, or the coaching?" argument too. (Sigh).

With Phillips at d-coord, it feel alike we have a great talent evaluator AND a great d-coord. So we're getting the right player, at the right position, and the coaching is top-notch too. Triple threat. Before now? Hit or miss. Risk taking. Gambling on guys. I think Kareem was a gamble; he needs to be a nickel CB and nobody wants to hurt his feelings with that sort of talk. But it is what it is--He does well when he's not alone, he's a great nickel guy IMO...because he can break off and go attack the shallow stuff that drifts his way. Staying one-on-one? Not so much.

I think pre philips we did "OK" on the D-Line. We got Mario, and Barwin. The one spot we have greatly stuggled in drafting is DT. We have never in our history drafted a good DT. Seth Payne was a FA, but he was the best we've had that i can remember. Same goes for CB we have problems evaluating quality CBs, the only descent one we have drafted was D. Rob.


Now Offense is where we have been successful.

AJ, Foster (UDFA), D. Brown, Owen Daniels, Joel Dreesen, Eric Winston, Domanick Davis, Chester Pitts,

I know that these are a mix between the casserly and Smith era but it goes to show you that overall we have not been a very good drafting team IMO. Maybe been better at getting offensive players in the past simply because we have never had a REAL D.C

thunderkyss
12-29-2011, 02:44 PM
I think KJ has greatly improved this year, i think the front 7 has helped KJ a lot this year as well. I just hate to hear B.S excuses/assumptions by certain people, everytime he messes up. He needs to take responsibilty every time he messes up, it will make him better in the long run IMO.

Can you admit that sometimes when it "looks" like Kj got burned, it was because his help wasn't there?

That whole thing with 76 started because he picked a few plays where it "looks" like Kj got burned, but 76 was trying to point out that on those particular plays it was his help that was no where to be found.

Sure, they were his opinion of what the coverage was. & he didn't show anything where Kj flat out got beat (I understood his reason for doing it that way was because we could all agree on those plays because they were obvious, he fell down, he got smacked by Roy Williams, or something else that was obvious).

Just like the 34 yard pass to Wayne in that final drive. I thought it was man coverage. I thought Kj got beat. 76Texans said Demps was supposed to have inside leverage.

Kubiak (on the Kubiak show the following Monday) confirmed that wasn't Kj's play to make.... that Kj was actually trying to cover for another player.

(basically what I'm saying here, is that 76 never set out to say Kj never made a mistake. He chose those plays to specifically show that some plays where it looks like Kj messed up, it was his help that didn't show up)

thunderkyss
12-29-2011, 02:54 PM
IMO, this comes down to the difference between Wade Phillips picking defensive players (in 2010) and his predecessors in the previous drafts. What's odd is that we've done fairly well with LB draft picks (Cushing, Ryans) in the pre-Phillips era, but the d-line and the secondary have always been what I feel a bit deficient in PURE talent at their positions.



I don't think there's much difference between the players that were picked before Wade or after...... they all look the same to me. JJ Watt is known to be a high motor guy, but so is Connor. So was Amobi. So is Antonio (I know he isn't a draft pick).

Mario may not have been known as a high motor guy, but with the #1 overall, are you saying Wade would have had us pick D'brickshaw instead? Reggie? Aj Hawk? I think that's far fetched.

All the draft picks were "good character" team leaders one way or another & that hasn't changed.

Would Kubiak have drafted JJ Watt? Probably not, but that was because we were in a 4-3 & we already spent so many 1st round picks on DL..... But whoever Kubiak would have picked he would have been someone in the same mold.

Wade appears to be happy with what Smithiak brought in for NT with Cody & Mitchell (who also had a great game vs Indy), he loves Cushing & Meco, He thinks Quin is a solid player (possible pro bowler if I remember correctly).

FA wise, I think McNair had as much to do with getting Jjo & Manning as Wade did. I may be delusional but I think Smith was given an ultimatum to get one of the top Corners in FA.

thunderkyss
12-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Now Offense is where we have been successful.

AJ, Foster (UDFA), D. Brown, Owen Daniels, Joel Dreesen, Eric Winston, Domanick Davis, Chester Pitts,

I know that these are a mix between the casserly and Smith era but it goes to show you that overall we have not been a very good drafting team IMO. Maybe been better at getting offensive players in the past simply because we have never had a REAL D.C

I think with Wade, we'll hit on more of those mid round picks on defense than before. I know it seems like we did well with Zac Diles & Glover Quin, Maybe even Mitchell. But I think someone like Babin would have fit very well with what Wade wants to do. Babin (imo) was another high motor guy, just didn't know what to do with it.

EllisUnit
12-29-2011, 03:02 PM
Can you admit that sometimes when it "looks" like Kj got burned, it was because his help wasn't there?

That whole thing with 76 started because he picked a few plays where it "looks" like Kj got burned, but 76 was trying to point out that on those particular plays it was his help that was no where to be found.

Sure, they were his opinion of what the coverage was. & he didn't show anything where Kj flat out got beat (I understood his reason for doing it that way was because we could all agree on those plays because they were obvious, he fell down, he got smacked by Roy Williams, or something else that was obvious).

Just like the 34 yard pass to Wayne in that final drive. I thought it was man coverage. I thought Kj got beat. 76Texans said Demps was supposed to have inside leverage.

Kubiak (on the Kubiak show the following Monday) confirmed that wasn't Kj's play to make.... that Kj was actually trying to cover for another player.

(basically what I'm saying here, is that 76 never set out to say Kj never made a mistake. He chose those plays to specifically show that some plays where it looks like Kj messed up, it was his help that didn't show up)

My problem is that it is what 76 "says" most of his proff/arguments are assumptions. That dont mean they are correct by any means. And also think about this they are KJs "HELP". From my knowledge help means to make YOUR job easier, not to do it all for you, but the fact remains it was still KJs job. If i am working i dont ask the help to do ALL the work like it seems some on here ask for all of KJs help to do. I do everything i can and dont depend on someone else, and i wont blame them if the job doesnt get done because it was MY job they were just there to help.

Thats my problem with taking it easy on KJ cause he didnt have very good "Help"

Rey
12-29-2011, 04:38 PM
To be honest I don't pay attention to what 76 says anymore and ellis I'd suggest you do the same. No offense just don't care for his analysis. Doesn't make sense for you to have the same argument over and over with someone that you characterize the way you do. Kareem doesn't suck but we can improve at that position. Either he can get better or we can find a better player. His ball skills and positioning when the ball is thrown leaves a lot to be desired

leebigeztx
12-29-2011, 10:07 PM
@PFF_NateJahnke@leebigez Has allowed 29 of 49 balls thrown his way to be caught for 458 yards and 4 TD. He's had 1 interception, and 4 passes defensed

This is response to a tweet I sent to pro football focus. They're the absolute best because they watch every play,every player. You can ask about any vital stat in football and they can answer it. 29 of 49 is 59% at 15.9 yds per completion.

76Texan
12-30-2011, 12:07 AM
@PFF_NateJahnke@leebigez Has allowed 29 of 49 balls thrown his way to be caught for 458 yards and 4 TD. He's had 1 interception, and 4 passes defensed

This is response to a tweet I sent to pro football focus. They're the absolute best because they watch every play,every player. You can ask about any vital stat in football and they can answer it. 29 of 49 is 59% at 15.9 yds per completion.I thought about not posting this, because people may take it the wrong way.
But what the heck, Rey is not going to read it, so anybody who doesn't like it could disregard it just the same (even if they happen to read it.)


PFF do a pretty good job overall regarding team stats.
But there were times they were simply incorrect regarding individuals.
For example, one time I mentioned that they charted the wrong personnel that was on the field on certain plays.
(They mistook Adibi for Diles on a couple of plays a few years ago, for example.)


I know that they charged the 51yd pass to Torrey Smith to KJ.
I wouldn't be surprised if they charged the 34yd catch by Wayne to KJ as well.


A couple years ago, one of the charters (I remember vaguely his name was Karl or something like that) joined this board for a while to get feedbacks.
There might have been two guys charting the game at that time.
Or maybe it was just him.
At any rate, he said he spent about 13-14 hours on each game.
(I imagine they had to put out the stats weekly so they couldn't afford any more time than that.)
I think each of them chart a few different games per week.
At any rate, I'm not sure there's enough time for them to do a thorough job.
(They don't have time to check with Kubiak, for example, to know what kind of coverage we were in.)

I spent at least twice more the time than that during the week (many times between 30-40 hours.)
In the off-season, I went back to all the games.
I spent at least 70 hours per game each of the previous 3 years.


I would put up my overall record regarding Texans players against anybody, even the pros.
Not to say that I'm right or anything, but I believe I'm very close or pretty close on all players (in the long run - on the players that we can actually see in action a fair number of times; for college players I'd like to watch at least 6 of their games, preferrably 9, preferrably against good competition).
My batting average is up there (sorry, I really really don't mean to brag - people who knows me sees me as a very humble guy.)
But you can go down the list on my take about the players (whether by starting a thread or by joining the discussion).
You can go back to the archive for as far as you like.
Check your own record vs. mine, then tell me who makes more sense.


On a side note, there's this one thing I didn't quite get to when I worked on the thread "A glimpse of Wade's defense throughout the years".
(Or maybe I did say it).
That when I watched the inverted cover 2, I thought to myself, hmm... this could bode well for Jason Allen.
It was then when I said I wouldn't write him off.
My head is in the right place much more than some of you guys think.
I'm not blinded by hatred.
More than one time I've already said that I don't have an ego.
I don't need to be right.
I do this simply because I love the game.

thunderkyss
12-30-2011, 07:27 AM
@PFF_NateJahnke@leebigez Has allowed 29 of 49 balls thrown his way to be caught for 458 yards and 4 TD. He's had 1 interception, and 4 passes defensed

This is response to a tweet I sent to pro football focus. They're the absolute best because they watch every play,every player. You can ask about any vital stat in football and they can answer it. 29 of 49 is 59% at 15.9 yds per completion.

That pretty much falls in line with what I think about Kj, except it doesn't take into account how many snaps he played on passing downs. Can you find out how many passing snaps that number accounts for?

My contention is that his coverage is usually very solid. However, if the ball goes his way, since he has such poor ball skills, it's a completion more times than not.

Again, on most downs, the QB doesn't throw his way. Think about the New Orleans game, that was Drew Brees & a pretty good receiving core all around. It wasn't till the 3rd Qtr, that Brees even challenged him. Then it was on & Drew learned what I learned. Even if he looks covered... he's open.

Kaiser Toro
12-30-2011, 09:16 AM
fwiw
“Joseph has been exactly what they needed,” a scout told me this week. “After a horrible first-round draft pick in 2010 in Kareem Jackson, they made up for it with Joseph. He is fast, athletic and can match up with most receivers in the AFC. He plays bigger than his size (5-foot-11, 191 pounds), because he has good functional strength.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth

Texan_Bill
12-30-2011, 09:27 AM
......functional strength.

"Functional strength"? :thinking:

This might be why I didn't make it to the NFL. My 'non-functional' strength hurt my chances.

EllisUnit
12-30-2011, 09:35 AM
I thought about not posting this, because people may take it the wrong way.
But what the heck, Rey is not going to read it, so anybody who doesn't like it could disregard it just the same (even if they happen to read it.)


PFF do a pretty good job overall regarding team stats.
But there were times they were simply incorrect regarding individuals.
For example, one time I mentioned that they charted the wrong personnel that was on the field on certain plays.
(They mistook Adibi for Diles on a couple of plays a few years ago, for example.)


I know that they charged the 51yd pass to Torrey Smith to KJ.
I wouldn't be surprised if they charged the 34yd catch by Wayne to KJ as well.


A couple years ago, one of the charters (I remember vaguely his name was Karl or something like that) joined this board for a while to get feedbacks.
There might have been two guys charting the game at that time.
Or maybe it was just him.
At any rate, he said he spent about 13-14 hours on each game.
(I imagine they had to put out the stats weekly so they couldn't afford any more time than that.)
I think each of them chart a few different games per week.
At any rate, I'm not sure there's enough time for them to do a thorough job.
(They don't have time to check with Kubiak, for example, to know what kind of coverage we were in.)

I spent at least twice more the time than that during the week (many times between 30-40 hours.)
In the off-season, I went back to all the games.
I spent at least 70 hours per game each of the previous 3 years.


I would put up my overall record regarding Texans players against anybody, even the pros.
Not to say that I'm right or anything, but I believe I'm very close or pretty close on all players (in the long run - on the players that we can actually see in action a fair number of times; for college players I'd like to watch at least 6 of their games, preferrably 9, preferrably against good competition).
My batting average is up there (sorry, I really really don't mean to brag - people who knows me sees me as a very humble guy.)
But you can go down the list on my take about the players (whether by starting a thread or by joining the discussion).
You can go back to the archive for as far as you like.
Check your own record vs. mine, then tell me who makes more sense.


On a side note, there's this one thing I didn't quite get to when I worked on the thread "A glimpse of Wade's defense throughout the years".
(Or maybe I did say it).
That when I watched the inverted cover 2, I thought to myself, hmm... this could bode well for Jason Allen.
It was then when I said I wouldn't write him off.
My head is in the right place much more than some of you guys think.
I'm not blinded by hatred.
More than one time I've already said that I don't have an ego.
I don't need to be right.
I do this simply because I love the game.

Why shouldnt they of charged the 34 yard catch to wayne on KJ, it was KJs man.

76Texan
12-30-2011, 09:47 AM
Why shouldnt they of charged the 34 yard catch to wayne on KJ, it was KJs man.

That same article Kaiser Toro quoted can answer your question:

"Pro Football Focus rates Joseph as just the 10th best cornerback in the league at this point. The website can’t always know coverage assignments"

76Texan
12-30-2011, 09:58 AM
Why shouldnt they of charged the 34 yard catch to wayne on KJ, it was KJs man.

3-3-PIT 27 (1:57) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass deep left to M.Wallace to HST 33 for 40 yards (D.Manning). P5
Timeout #1 by PIT at 01:48.

Ask them who they charged this pass to, Manning or Allen.
This was before halftime.

Without Manning, this would have been a 73-yd TD pass.
Whose man was Wallace?

EllisUnit
12-30-2011, 10:02 AM
3-3-PIT 27 (1:57) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass deep left to M.Wallace to HST 33 for 40 yards (D.Manning). P5
Timeout #1 by PIT at 01:48.

Ask them who they charged this pass to, Manning or Allen.
This was before halftime.

Without Manning, this would have been a 73-yd TD pass.
Whose man was Wallace?

do you always know what coverage we are in, or do you look at it and assume what each guys assignment should of been. And i am at work so no i cant look and see who was wallaces man, who was it, i'm assuming JoJo, since he was on him most of the game.

Plus i am talking about the 34 yard catch by Wayne, was that or was that not KJs man ?

El Tejano
12-30-2011, 10:19 AM
Can anyone tell me how many TDs Jason Allen has given up? I'm starting to like him. He has as many INTs as Joseph and I know he's been thrown to more.

Imatexanfan
12-30-2011, 10:31 AM
I'm just gonna hate it when we let this POS go he gonna play his ass off on another team and become a star... :barman:

leebigeztx
12-30-2011, 11:09 AM
I thought about not posting this, because people may take it the wrong way.
But what the heck, Rey is not going to read it, so anybody who doesn't like it could disregard it just the same (even if they happen to read it.)


PFF do a pretty good job overall regarding team stats.
But there were times they were simply incorrect regarding individuals.
For example, one time I mentioned that they charted the wrong personnel that was on the field on certain plays.
(They mistook Adibi for Diles on a couple of plays a few years ago, for example.)


I know that they charged the 51yd pass to Torrey Smith to KJ.
I wouldn't be surprised if they charged the 34yd catch by Wayne to KJ as well.


A couple years ago, one of the charters (I remember vaguely his name was Karl or something like that) joined this board for a while to get feedbacks.
There might have been two guys charting the game at that time.
Or maybe it was just him.
At any rate, he said he spent about 13-14 hours on each game.
(I imagine they had to put out the stats weekly so they couldn't afford any more time than that.)
I think each of them chart a few different games per week.
At any rate, I'm not sure there's enough time for them to do a thorough job.
(They don't have time to check with Kubiak, for example, to know what kind of coverage we were in.)

I spent at least twice more the time than that during the week (many times between 30-40 hours.)
In the off-season, I went back to all the games.
I spent at least 70 hours per game each of the previous 3 years.


I would put up my overall record regarding Texans players against anybody, even the pros.
Not to say that I'm right or anything, but I believe I'm very close or pretty close on all players (in the long run - on the players that we can actually see in action a fair number of times; for college players I'd like to watch at least 6 of their games, preferrably 9, preferrably against good competition).
My batting average is up there (sorry, I really really don't mean to brag - people who knows me sees me as a very humble guy.)
But you can go down the list on my take about the players (whether by starting a thread or by joining the discussion).
You can go back to the archive for as far as you like.
Check your own record vs. mine, then tell me who makes more sense.


On a side note, there's this one thing I didn't quite get to when I worked on the thread "A glimpse of Wade's defense throughout the years".
(Or maybe I did say it).
That when I watched the inverted cover 2, I thought to myself, hmm... this could bode well for Jason Allen.
It was then when I said I wouldn't write him off.
My head is in the right place much more than some of you guys think.
I'm not blinded by hatred.
More than one time I've already said that I don't have an ego.
I don't need to be right.
I do this simply because I love the game.

I wouldve put my record against anyones a couple of yrs ago when i had access to coaches tape. Unless you have access to coaches tape like these guys do, i highly doubt that your record will be as good as their record no matter how many hrs of still frame you watch. Thats like saying you can out do someone like synergy sports and i don't buy that one.

EllisUnit
12-30-2011, 11:23 AM
Can anyone tell me how many TDs Jason Allen has given up? I'm starting to like him. He has as many INTs as Joseph and I know he's been thrown to more.

oh lord now ur gonna get one of 76 long rants started, but i feel ya on that. As everyone already knows.

leebigeztx
12-30-2011, 11:32 AM
That pretty much falls in line with what I think about Kj, except it doesn't take into account how many snaps he played on passing downs. Can you find out how many passing snaps that number accounts for?

My contention is that his coverage is usually very solid. However, if the ball goes his way, since he has such poor ball skills, it's a completion more times than not.

Again, on most downs, the QB doesn't throw his way. Think about the New Orleans game, that was Drew Brees & a pretty good receiving core all around. It wasn't till the 3rd Qtr, that Brees even challenged him. Then it was on & Drew learned what I learned. Even if he looks covered... he's open.

Pretty much. His initial coverage is solid, but when the qb allow the play to expand, the wr creates seperation and he can't make any distance at all. I don't mean to pick on 76texan because i know he put in work through his analysis, but help doesn't mean leave you guy uncovered. There isnt a safety in the nfl who can make up for a cb who is beat quick and incresing the gap especially when there are other routes going on at the same time. Maybe they should just run a bracket on kj's man everytime to make the qb go somewhere else. If the play expands, his man is going to get uncovered. As i said, reeves had poor ball skills, but he had make up speed supreme. he would look burnt, but by the time the ball got there, he would knock the ball down. his last yr in houst. he only gave up like 42% completion and 0 tds.

EllisUnit
12-30-2011, 11:45 AM
Pretty much. His initial coverage is solid, but when the qb allow the play to expand, the wr creates seperation and he can't make any distance at all. I don't mean to pick on 76texan because i know he put in work through his analysis, but help doesn't mean leave you guy uncovered. There isnt a safety in the nfl who can make up for a cb who is beat quick and incresing the gap especially when there are other routes going on at the same time. Maybe they should just run a bracket on kj's man everytime to make the qb go somewhere else. If the play expands, his man is going to get uncovered. As i said, reeves had poor ball skills, but he had make up speed supreme. he would look burnt, but by the time the ball got there, he would knock the ball down. his last yr in houst. he only gave up like 42% completion and 0 tds.

i said when that let reeves go that it was a mistake, and it was. He had pretty good coverage skills, and i think him and jojo would of been a good 1-2 punch.

leebigeztx
12-30-2011, 12:08 PM
i said when that let reeves go that it was a mistake, and it was. He had pretty good coverage skills, and i think him and jojo would of been a good 1-2 punch.

they had the 13th taed defense despite starting off like garbage. They let robinson go and reeves and turned into the worse pass defense in the league.

thunderkyss
12-30-2011, 12:11 PM
Plus i am talking about the 34 yard catch by Wayne, was that or was that not KJs man ?

When you get a chance to listen to the Gary Kubiak Show, Gary said that wasn't on Kj.


There isnt a safety in the nfl who can make up for a cb who is beat quick and incresing the gap especially when there are other routes going on at the same time.

There was a play to Steve Smith during the Carolina game, Jjo is on Smith at the line & Manning was back deep. Jjo allowed Smith to beat him on the inside & trailed by a good distance. Manning picked Smith up & ran with him into the endzone.

Charles Davis (?? who covered the game) talked about how good the coverage was from both Manning & Jjo.... even though Jjo trailed by a good bit & was outside of Smith. He quickly explained if Smith had broke his route back outside or short, Jjo would have made the play, or prevented Smith from making a catch (easy catch).... but had he went deep, as he did Manning prevented Smith from being open.

Had Manning bit on a play fake or just not been there, as Demps wasn't on the 34 yard catch, Joseph would have looked just as bad because his "help" wasn't there. His help was supposed to cover the deep inside routes.... Jjo was supposed to prevent Smith from releasing outside & cover the underneath routes.

A wide receiver has so many options available to him. CBs aren't allowed to touch them beyond 5 yards. It is impossible to cover a WR man-to-man for too long in certain situations.

On that 34 yard catch, Kj makes no attempt to stay on Wayne's hip, leading me to believe it was not man coverage & he was supposed to cover the outside & force Wayne inside...... you can see Demps run up for the run fake, leaving Wayne wide open.

i said when that let reeves go that it was a mistake, and it was. He had pretty good coverage skills, and i think him and jojo would of been a good 1-2 punch.

I can agree with this.... they already let Dunta go & they missed on Bodden.... didn't make sense, unless Reeves was bad for the locker room.

EllisUnit
12-30-2011, 12:18 PM
When you get a chance to listen to the Gary Kubiak Show, Gary said that wasn't on Kj.



There was a play to Steve Smith during the Carolina game, Jjo is on Smith at the line & Manning was back deep. Jjo allowed Smith to beat him on the inside & trailed by a good distance. Manning picked Smith up & ran with him into the endzone.

Charles Davis (?? who covered the game) talked about how good the coverage was from both Manning & Jjo.... even though Jjo trailed by a good bit & was outside of Smith. He quickly explained if Smith had broke his route back outside or short, Jjo would have made the play, or prevented Smith from making a catch (easy catch).... but had he went deep, as he did Manning prevented Smith from being open.

Had Manning bit on a play fake or just not been there, as Demps wasn't on the 34 yard catch, Joseph would have looked just as bad because his "help" wasn't there. His help was supposed to cover the deep inside routes.... Jjo was supposed to prevent Smith from releasing outside & cover the underneath routes.

A wide receiver has so many options available to him. CBs aren't allowed to touch them beyond 5 yards. It is impossible to cover a WR man-to-man for too long in certain situations.

On that 34 yard catch, Kj makes no attempt to stay on Wayne's hip, leading me to believe it was not man coverage & he was supposed to cover the outside & force Wayne inside...... you can see Demps run up for the run fake, leaving Wayne wide open.



I can agree with this.... they already let Dunta go & they missed on Bodden.... didn't make sense, unless Reeves was bad for the locker room.

i have heard kubiak KJ, before. i dont know how it wasnt his fault, it was his man, if it wasnt his fault why was he chasing him ? KJ dont have enough make up speed to pass wayne off and then catch back up in time to try to contest it.

And yeah i knew it was a mistake to let Reeveso go, that left us with a sophomore CB in Quin and a rookie in KJ. And i didnt like the sound of that, especially considering Reeves was not a half bad CB

76Texan
12-30-2011, 01:05 PM
I wouldve put my record against anyones a couple of yrs ago when i had access to coaches tape. Unless you have access to coaches tape like these guys do, i highly doubt that your record will be as good as their record no matter how many hrs of still frame you watch. Thats like saying you can out do someone like synergy sports and i don't buy that one.

Greg Cossell, the guy with all the coaches' tapes in the world said before the season that he believed KJ will be a quality CB.

I also mentioned somebody who was with Lance Z talking about "somebody with coach tapes" credited Jackson's plays with helping the front 7 do their job.

On the other point, I was talking about the "pros" like in "the media".

thunderkyss
12-30-2011, 02:43 PM
i have heard kubiak KJ, before. i dont know how it wasnt his fault, it was his man, if it wasnt his fault why was he chasing him ? KJ dont have enough make up speed to pass wayne off and then catch back up in time to try to contest it.


They weren't playing man... it was zone coverage. Kj did what his coaches told him to & guarded from an outside release. When the ball was in the air, he attacked the receiver... & was close (but not close enough) to defending that pass.

I agree with you on Kj's lack of make up speed. I just don't think that pass was an example of it.

Rey
12-30-2011, 02:55 PM
Some one mentioned jumping on a fade route and I just watched a replay of the cowboys/giants game and mike jenkins jumped and defended a fade route in the endzone.

thunderkyss
12-30-2011, 03:06 PM
Some one mentioned jumping on a fade route and I just watched a replay of the cowboys/giants game and mike jenkins jumped and defended a fade route in the endzone.

There are more than a dozen things Kj could have done on that play that would have been better than what he did (which amounted to nothing).

leebigeztx
12-30-2011, 03:15 PM
Greg Cossell, the guy with all the coaches' tapes in the world said before the season that he believed KJ will be a quality CB.

I also mentioned somebody who was with Lance Z talking about "somebody with coach tapes" credited Jackson's plays with helping the front 7 do their job.

On the other point, I was talking about the "pros" like in "the media".

I listen to cossell every thurs morning on sirius and he's one of my favorites. Go and ask him about jackson right now. A solid corner to me is jammer. Jammer is a guy who doesn't get ints, but he is physical and break up plays. 60% and 16ypc is not solid. Rogers of the 49ers had one of the lowest comp % even last yr with the overrated hall on the other side. He's a solid corner. Jackson is not solid, he's not terrible either. He will play his rookie deal out and be replaced. In todays nfl, you need 3 good corners. Not 1 or 2, but 3.

GP
12-30-2011, 03:17 PM
I'm just gonna hate it when we let this POS go he gonna play his ass off on another team and become a star... :barman:

That's what everyone said about David Carr.

"Watch him go to Carolina and just become this awesome QB."

Then it was...

"Watch him go to the Giants and become a star QB."

Then it was...

"Watch Carr end up in San Francisco and...oh, wait. He sucks. My bad."

EllisUnit
12-30-2011, 03:22 PM
Greg Cossell, the guy with all the coaches' tapes in the world said before the season that he believed KJ will be a quality CB.

I also mentioned somebody who was with Lance Z talking about "somebody with coach tapes" credited Jackson's plays with helping the front 7 do their job.

On the other point, I was talking about the "pros" like in "the media".

Wow now i feel better :mariopalm:

76Texan
12-31-2011, 12:22 AM
I listen to cossell every thurs morning on sirius and he's one of my favorites. Go and ask him about jackson right now. A solid corner to me is jammer. Jammer is a guy who doesn't get ints, but he is physical and break up plays. 60% and 16ypc is not solid. Rogers of the 49ers had one of the lowest comp % even last yr with the overrated hall on the other side. He's a solid corner. Jackson is not solid, he's not terrible either. He will play his rookie deal out and be replaced. In todays nfl, you need 3 good corners. Not 1 or 2, but 3.

I google Kareem Jackson Greg Cosell and come up with this:

Fantasy Sports - The Roto Times ® - www.rototimes.com
Wayne set up his own game-winning 1-yard touchdown with an excellent route and leaping grab over Kareem Jackson despite tight ... according to NFL Films' Greg Cosell…

www.rototimes.com/football/player_news.php?seldate=2011-12-22

Can't tell whether the comment was from rotoworld or greg cosell.

Wayne set up his own game-winning 1-yard touchdown with an excellent route and leaping grab over Kareem Jackson despite tight coverage.

http://www.rototimes.com/football/player_news.php?seldate=2011-12-22

Can't really talk about numbers from PFF 'cause like I said, they can't tell coverage any better than we can. (And I brought up this point with Karl long before we drafted KJ.)

We'll see what happens in 2013, whether the Texans will pick up the 5th year of the contract or not.
Lots of things can happen between now and then anyway.

76Texan
12-31-2011, 12:27 AM
Some one mentioned jumping on a fade route and I just watched a replay of the cowboys/giants game and mike jenkins jumped and defended a fade route in the endzone.

It was a different situation Rey.
(You must be talking about the pass to Beckum in week 14).
The ball was thrown to the inside, that was why Jenkins can get to it.

It was similar to the two passes thrown to Julio Jones that KJ defended.
He jumped both times.

Remember the one pass you mentioned where Julio made a great catch and Jackson almost got to the ball (you said it in one of your posts).
The ball was thrown to the outside.

And the one in the end zone at the end of the game.
The ball was somewhere in between.

KJ played off-man just like Jenkins.
That's how the CB can see the QB and the ball from the beginning.
He's already have depth and can get to the spot better in order to position himself for the jump.

KJ knows how to play the way you wants him to, what else can you ask for?

It was nice of you reading my posts still :)

I'm gonna be out of bound for a few days.
Much hope for a win so that everybody will have more positive talks.

Go Texans!

Texan_Bill
12-31-2011, 12:33 AM
For Christ's sake John..... Please stop it!!


While you hit on many of subjects you often miss...... In any event, get a ****ing life bro!! In fact, when was it you last visited us at Blue Crew??? Seriously!!!!!

76Texan
12-31-2011, 12:38 AM
For Christ's sake John..... Please stop it!!


While you hit on many of subjects you often miss...... In any event, get a ****ing life bro!! In fact, when was it you last visited us at Blue Crew??? Seriously!!!!!

I'm ready to put a hold on this topic, TB.



I hope to visit the Blue Crew at the WC game???

Rey
12-31-2011, 12:58 AM
It was a different situation Rey.
(You must be talking about the pass to Beckum in week 14).

It was similar to the two passes thrown to Julio Jones that KJ defended.
He jumped both times.

Remember the one pass you mentioned where Julio made a great catch and Jackson almost got to the ball (you said it in one of your posts).

And the one in the end zone at the end of the game.

KJ played off-man just like Jenkins.
That's how the CB can see the QB and the ball from the beginning.
He's already have depth and can get to the spot better in order to position himself for the jump.

KJ knows how to play the way you wants him to, what else can you ask for?

It was nice of you reading my posts still :)

I'm gonna be out of bound for a few days.
Much hope for a win so that everybody will have more positive talks.

Go Texans!


No it was from this past game that they played. Very similar situation. Jenkins had better positioning and was able to get in between the ball and the receiver and he jumped up and broke up the fade route pass.

But anyways, I was just commenting on that one particular comment I saw in the thread. All this Kareem Jackson sucks/doesn't suck has never been my cup of tea. I've never said he sucks. I may have said he has sucked in certain situations, but folks will read into it however they see fit. Kareem has improved in his ability to stay near receivers (kudos I guess) but he still is pretty bad when the ball is actually thrown towards him. He does not do a good job of actually getting his hands on balls and he does a poor job of positioning himself to do so.

That has been my main concern regarding him since way back when this whole conversation started. Go back and check. Go back and check why I felt like Jason Allen would take snaps away from him. (I never said Allen should start, Just said I liked his ball skills more but I liked Jackson's physicality more).

Anyways, I'm past that. I firmly believe we can do better at cb#2. Kareem will do if we simply cannot find anyone better, but he is not a guy that I am going to pencil into the starting line-up next year or any year after.

I believe there will be corners available in the draft that will be able to challenge him for playing time much like Allen (a guy that many Kareem apologist have gone out of their way to say sucks) has challenged him for playing time this year.

You guys can call it what you want, but I'd prefer a better player there. One that can actually keep Jason Allen off the field.

And I never said I don't read your post. I said I don't pay much attention to your analysis anymore.

76Texan
12-31-2011, 01:06 AM
No it was from this past game that they played. Very similar situation. Jenkins had better positioning and was able to get in between the ball and the receiver and he jumped up and broke up the fade route pass.



That was the past game they played.
Jenkins play off-man (about 5 yards away);
no jam :)

At any rate, KJ has already shown that he can jump to defend the fade route in those two plays I mentioned.

76Texan
12-31-2011, 01:14 AM
I believe there will be corners available in the draft that will be able to challenge him for playing time much like Allen (a guy that many Kareem apologist have gone out of their way to say sucks) has challenged him for playing time this year.

Neither TK nor I ever said that Allen sucks.

We both said that he's not the future, that is all.



I have never ever say that any player sucks (even if they play very poorly).
It's just not my style.

If I ever make any comment of the sort, it would clearly be in a joking manner.

thunderkyss
12-31-2011, 09:10 AM
Neither TK nor I ever said that Allen sucks.

We both said that he's not the future, that is all.



I have never ever say that any player sucks (even if they play very poorly).
It's just not my style.

If I ever make any comment of the sort, it would clearly be in a joking manner.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've said David Carr sucked several times, but no one wanted to believe me then..... now, they think I was on the wrong side of that argument.

I argued Tj was a hard worker & the best DT on the team.... I also said we could use an upgrade, but guys like DelJuan Robinson would disappear once he played the same position as Tj.... the guy played the 3 tech (Up Tackle) which naturally gets more stats....... tackles, pressures, sacks, than the NT. Tj never had the opportunity to play the UT while he was here, always the NT or 3-4 DE (which I never thought he was suited for).

I liked Babin's motor, was sad to see him go...... also sad it took so long for him to do something.

I liked Gaffney & blamed David Carr for his poor numbers.... he went elsewhere, & though he isn't a star (2nd round pick??) he's a solid WR & I'd love him to be here in JJones' place.

I liked Okoye..... not for where we drafted him, but I bet he'll be in the league a long time.

Never cared for Weaver.... didn't say much about him at all.

Never cared for Greenwood.. never said anything about him.

Never cared for Dunta & I think that's why it took us so long to address CB the way we should have to begin with. Dunta Robinson never was (IMO) & never will be a #1 CB...... I think Kj will be.

I've been right about some players, I've been wrong about others. Some guys, like Mario I like & I may be a little more patient than others waiting for him to become who he's supposed to be. Kj falls into that group, because I feel sorry for the position he was put in last year. He appears to be talented enough to play the position as well as it should be played, but I do think he is short of where he should be right now.

Sharing time with Allen, I don't think is helping him as much as it did last season.

Allen... If he were a starting CB on my team, I'd be looking for an upgrade. I honestly don't think he's a starter in this league, not when more & more receivers look like Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, & Julio Jones. Heck Heyward-Bay posterized him, & he's not "that" physical of a receiver.

But, I've also said, recently that Allen has played better at the line, I think it was the Bengals game. Next time you watch a game, watch when Jason Allen has his toes on the line. He can't wait for the ball to snap. He's already turning & running, which tells the receiver he doesn't have to worry about the jam & he'll be able to release however he chooses to..... Jason Allen has no intentions of forcing a receiver inside, outside, or mess with his timing. 9 times out of 10, he wants to be on top of the receiver & tries to stay on top (which is ok) but if it's a hook or quick out, that receiver is waiting for Allen to open his hips, the receiver then makes his cut & Allen is turned the wrong way & there is the separation QBs are looking for.

He does get interceptions.... on poorly thrown balls. I've never seen him jump a route to get an INT & he bats down as many balls as Kj....... none. So while his ball skills are better, they are not where they need to be.

Kj isn't a starter (in my mind either) but we don't have 7 years of history saying that he isn't, like we have with Allen.

EllisUnit
12-31-2011, 09:58 AM
Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've said David Carr sucked several times, but no one wanted to believe me then..... now, they think I was on the wrong side of that argument.

I argued Tj was a hard worker & the best DT on the team.... I also said we could use an upgrade, but guys like (I can't remember the name of the guy everyone thought was better than Tj) would disappear once he played the same position as Tj.... the guy played the 3 tech (Up Tackle) which naturally gets more stats....... tackles, pressures, sacks, than the NT. Tj never had the opportunity to play the UT while he was here, always the NT or 3-4 DE (which I never thought he was suited for).

I liked Babin's motor, was sad to see him go...... also sad it took so long for him to do something.

I liked Gaffney & blamed David Carr for his poor numbers.... he went elsewhere, & though he isn't a star (2nd round pick??) he's a solid WR & I'd love him to be here in JJones' place.

I liked Okoye..... not for where we drafted him, but I bet he'll be in the league a long time.

Never cared for Weaver.... didn't say much about him at all.

Never cared for Greenwood.. never said anything about him.

Never cared for Dunta & I think that's why it took us so long to address CB the way we should have to begin with. Dunta Robinson never was (IMO) & never will be a #1 CB...... I think Kj will be.

I've been right about some players, I've been wrong about others. Some guys, like Mario I like & I may be a little more patient than others waiting for him to become who he's supposed to be. Kj falls into that group, because I feel sorry for the position he was put in last year. He appears to be talented enough to play the position as well as it should be played, but I do think he is short or where he should be right now.

Sharing time with Allen, I don't think is helping him as much as it did last season.

Allen... If he were a starting CB on my team, I'd be looking for an upgrade. I honestly don't think he's a starter in this league, not when more & more receivers look like Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, & Julio Jones. Heck Heyward-Bay posterized him, & he's not "that" physical of a receiver.

But, I've also said, recently that Allen has played better at the line, I think it was the Bengals game. Next time you watch a game, watch when Jason Allen has his toes on the line. He can't wait for the ball to snap. He's already turning & running, which tells the receiver he doesn't have to worry about the jam & he'll be able to release however he chooses to..... Jason Allen has no intentions of forcing a receiver inside, outside, or mess with his timing. 9 times out of 10, he wants to be on top of the receiver & tries to stay on top (which is ok) but if it's a hook or quick out, that receiver is waiting for Allen to open his hips, the receiver then makes his cut & Allen is turned the wrong way & there is the separation QBs are looking for.

He does get interceptions.... on poorly thrown balls. I've never seen him jump a route to get an INT & he bats down as many balls as Kj....... none. So while his ball skills are better, they are not where they need to be.

Kj isn't a starter (in my mind either) but we don't have 7 years of history saying that he isn't, like we have with Allen.

And how many of KJs have been INTS on good thrown balls. I can tell you a few really good ints by allen just off the top of my head

Eagles, Broncos, atlanta (he did jump the route), Oakland, i'm sue there are more but i'd have to go back and look

thunderkyss
12-31-2011, 11:52 AM
And how many of KJs have been INTS on good thrown balls.

I never said Kj gets INTs on well thrown balls. I've contended that Kj will never be the kind of CB that gets a lot of INTs.

I've also never said Kj was better than Allen (overall. They both have some things they do better than the other, but neither should be starting in this league).



I can tell you a few really good ints by allen just off the top of my head

Eagles, Broncos, atlanta (he did jump the route), Oakland, i'm sue there are more but i'd have to go back and look

I don't agree, or I don't remember. Atlanta is fresh on my mind. He did not jump the route..... well. He may have jumped the route the QB was throwing, but he didn't jump the route the receiver was running.

So I'll give you that one.

EllisUnit
12-31-2011, 12:55 PM
I never said Kj gets INTs on well thrown balls. I've contended that Kj will never be the kind of CB that gets a lot of INTs.

I've also never said Kj was better than Allen (overall. They both have some things they do better than the other, but neither should be starting in this league).



I don't agree, or I don't remember. Atlanta is fresh on my mind. He did not jump the route..... well. He may have jumped the route the QB was throwing, but he didn't jump the route the receiver was running.

So I'll give you that one.

on the atlanta game Matt Ryan threw a bullet trying to hit Julio Jones, it should not of been a bullet, if he would of put some air under it then it would of been a completion, but he didnt and allen did jump the route.

But what about the other games, i think my most impressive INT i can remember him making was last season against the eagles. that was some damn good coverage and a dman good INT.

thunderkyss
12-31-2011, 01:43 PM
But what about the other games, i think my most impressive INT i can remember him making was last season against the eagles. that was some damn good coverage and a dman good INT.

That was nice.

TexansFanatic
01-01-2012, 01:59 PM
Dude is just a liability, plain and simple. Might as well just leave his guy uncovered and have 10 defenders on the field.

stingray
01-01-2012, 02:03 PM
I was a kareem supporter. No more. The guy stinks and does not belong on the field.

Mr. Texan
01-01-2012, 02:05 PM
he's the most "nfl ready" :kitten:

http://static.themetapicture.com/media/funny-gif-cute-dog-seriously-guys.gif

LikeMike
01-01-2012, 02:17 PM
Kind of a knee jerk reaction, don`t you think. Yeah, he made mistakes today - one of em really big. But he had a real good season so far and still a lot to learn. Without JoJo our whole coverage looks a lot worse.

KJ is solid with some great run support and ST tackles and a weakness to the deep ball. He is already a pretty good #2 and should still improve.

PapaL
01-01-2012, 02:19 PM
Its not like this is his first year ever playing CB. I just don't get the he'll get better mentality. A lot of his issues are basic things.

Unless you're JJo, we need to upgrade our CB play.

EllisUnit
01-01-2012, 02:38 PM
Kind of a knee jerk reaction, don`t you think. Yeah, he made mistakes today - one of em really big. But he had a real good season so far and still a lot to learn. Without JoJo our whole coverage looks a lot worse.

KJ is solid with some great run support and ST tackles and a weakness to the deep ball. He is already a pretty good #2 and should still improve.

we see what happens when the pressure slows down though.

LikeMike
01-01-2012, 02:42 PM
Its not like this is his first year ever playing CB. I just don't get the he'll get better mentality. A lot of his issues are basic things.

Unless you're JJo, we need to upgrade our CB play.

Take a look at basically every good CB playing right now: how was their rookie year? Their second year? How is the best CB project (Petersen) of the last years playing right now? NFL is different from College - and last year the whole defense was a mess. He was thrown into an impossible situation and failed miserably. This year in a good situation he played pretty well most games - and made some mistakes. His improvement from the start of last year to where he is now is real big - so I´d say there is a real good chance that he will get even better with the right coaching and more experience.

Oh, and does anyone else notice how this thread always pops up, when he makes a mistake, but then disappers sometimes for several weeks when he plays decent? All eyes are on this kid and everybody waits for him to make a mistake - and when he does people tear him apart...

Rey
01-01-2012, 04:02 PM
Kj did not have a "really good season". He had a decent season. A not poor season. He was better than last year. If you think kj was really good your expectations are low. Kind of a knee jerk reaction, don`t you think. Yeah, he made mistakes today - one of em really big. But he had a real good season so far and still a lot to learn. Without JoJo our whole coverage looks a lot worse.

KJ is solid with some great run support and ST tackles and a weakness to the deep ball. He is already a pretty good #2 and should still improve.

thunderkyss
01-01-2012, 04:31 PM
I was a kareem supporter. No more. The guy stinks and does not belong on the field.

He was only thrown at 2 times that I counted.

foo82
01-01-2012, 05:49 PM
Despite his shortcomings, I still think he's making good progress.

People still overlook this fact over and over again, but it's not like KJ is in his 4th or 5th season. He's only in his second year. The positive is that more often than not, he is "on" his man. He just needs to disrupt the passes better rather than just following his man.

Most corners don't start to shine until 3rd season, so for all those harping on him right now, at least wait until next year.

leebigeztx
01-01-2012, 06:01 PM
He was only thrown at 2 times that I counted.

How many comps and yds?

thunderkyss
01-01-2012, 07:03 PM
How many comps and yds?

I think the second one was caught for a lot of yards.

I'll watch the game again tomorrow, but I don't think the first one was caught.

Watching the game from the stands, again his coverage was very solid.

When Washington made that catch, I knew that would be the play that everyone is upset about. Nevermind all the other plays where his receiver was not considered an option.

I understand at times his receiver may be so far down on the progression the QB just never gets to him. But Kareem played a large number of snaps... 35 pass playes, not counting the three sacks & he was thrown at less than a handful of times.

That's pretty good coverage, especially for a 2nd year player.

76Texan
01-01-2012, 07:15 PM
Kj did not have a "really good season". He had a decent season. A not poor season. He was better than last year. If you think kj was really good your expectations are low.

I can agree with this.

It's a learning curve.
He still needs to get better.

BTW, can somebody explain to me Allen's technique on that fade route by Avery on the TD?

Leebig?