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View Full Version : Connor Barwin: better than mario? Yes!


dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 06:41 PM
Not only did Mario never have 4 sacks in one game, he can't do these things:

Barwin looks great (http://www.texansbullblog.com/connor-barwins-athleticism-versatility-display/featured-articles/isolated-review/)

GP
11-27-2011, 06:45 PM
OMG.

You're going to catch a lot of hell.

Trap_Star
11-27-2011, 06:46 PM
that's from september, had to wait a bit to post it here huh?

srrono
11-27-2011, 06:54 PM
simple No he isnt

TimeKiller
11-27-2011, 06:55 PM
Better single game sack total? Yes!

Better player? No!

GP
11-27-2011, 06:57 PM
This is going to be fun, watching dale's rep points go down....down.......down.

Coroner's report: Rep Death due to self-inflicted shooting off of the mouth.

beerlover
11-27-2011, 06:58 PM
Barwin better suited to play OLB in a 3-4 that's all.

Playoffs
11-27-2011, 07:00 PM
No, but he's a wicked quick beast.

Dutchrudder
11-27-2011, 07:01 PM
Kinda jumping the gun, don't ya think?

EllisUnit
11-27-2011, 07:02 PM
Not only did Mario never have 4 sacks in one game, he can't do these things:

Barwin looks great (http://www.texansbullblog.com/connor-barwins-athleticism-versatility-display/featured-articles/isolated-review/)

because of one game, man c'mon i remeber a big monday night game against denver when Mario had 3. This is blaine garrett and the jags that barwin abused, not the patriots.

Mr. Texan
11-27-2011, 07:04 PM
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/gif/ppreflex.gif

SAMURAITEXAN
11-27-2011, 07:07 PM
That is one bold statement.

Go Texans!!!

noxiousdog
11-27-2011, 07:15 PM
No.

Scooter
11-27-2011, 07:22 PM
dale i appreciate that you like to go against the grain, but ummm .. no.

steelbtexan
11-27-2011, 07:26 PM
This yr he is.

He's playing and playing at a high level.

Who is this Mario you speak of?

EllisUnit
11-27-2011, 07:28 PM
This yr he is.
He's playing and playing at a high level.

Who is this Mario you speak of?

not very competitive when its a one man race. Where was this thread when mario was leading the team in sacks.

eriadoc
11-27-2011, 07:37 PM
You're so far from objectivity on this topic that I can't take anything you say seriously.

HTown2ATX
11-27-2011, 07:48 PM
This is going to be fun, watching dale's rep points go down....down.......down.

Coroner's report: Rep Death due to self-inflicted shooting off of the mouth.


LMAO

:popcorn:

enough said

Jackie Chiles
11-27-2011, 07:51 PM
Don't see why we can't pump Barwin without tearing down another player but I guess I should be accustomed to it on these boards, happens all the time with different players. Too many agendas.

GP
11-27-2011, 07:53 PM
What's the over/under on number of pages this thread ends up having.

I call it at 14 pages. Over or under?

Number19
11-27-2011, 07:54 PM
This is the first year in Wade's defense. We don't know how good Mario can be.

HJam72
11-27-2011, 07:55 PM
I call over or under. :)

HTown2ATX
11-27-2011, 07:55 PM
What's the over/under on number of pages this thread ends up having.

I call it at 14 pages. Over or under?

Under. People will get bored of it and we have more to discuss than this.

9-10 at the very max IMO.

HJam72
11-27-2011, 07:55 PM
This is the first year in Wade's defense. We don't know how good Mario can be.

Yes, we do. He will get 3 or 4 sacks and then go down in game 3 with an injury.

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 08:09 PM
Barwin better suited to play OLB in a 3-4 that's all.

Well, considering he was crying about the prospect of playing DE in the 3-4, I guess that's all that matters now. Bye, bye Mario. Where to spend that $14 million? hmmm. A little depth on defense and then some more help on offense? sound good to me!

steelbtexan
11-27-2011, 08:09 PM
not very competitive when its a one man race. Where was this thread when mario was leading the team in sacks.

That's the point. MW is hurt again so this thread really doesn't have a purpose.

For the $$$$ MW makes vs Barwin's $$$$.

Barwin is>>>>>> MW

Wolf
11-27-2011, 08:10 PM
:vincepalm:

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 08:11 PM
not very competitive when its a one man race. Where was this thread when mario was leading the team in sacks.

I have believed this for quite some time. Last year's posts were about Antonio Smith being better. Believe me, all the Mario apologists have seen plenty of similar posts early in the year. 5 game winning streak once Mario went down and an upward trend on defense. I wish he was around for depth this year. But, I'll be glad when the year is over and we have the $14 million in cap money to spend elsewhere!

Wolf
11-27-2011, 08:24 PM
why can't we just like our players for who they are?

WTF?

he has 4.5 sacks before this game.. and gets ONE game where he pretty much matches the total.. I am ecstatic on this but some fans are just funny and have to compare every player with every stat imaginable


so is it safe for me to say he "takes games off" because in 5 games he gets sacks and in 6 games he took a vacation?

:vincepalm:

Maddict5
11-27-2011, 08:26 PM
This is the first year in Wade's defense. We don't know how good Mario can be.

mario also didnt get to line up against david carr v2 aka foetal gabbert

what a dumbass thread. i like connor and hes definitely improving the more he plays but dale's anti-mario agenda = :yawn:

BullNation4Life
11-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Well, considering he was crying about the prospect of playing DE in the 3-4, I guess that's all that matters now. Bye, bye Mario. Where to spend that $14 million? hmmm. A little depth on defense and then some more help on offense? sound good to me!

NEVER repeat NEVER cried about playing a 3-4 defense. Mario Williams has been quoted numerous times as saying he had concerns in playing in a 3-4 considering he never played in a 3-4 and had no idea what to expect. If you are going to slander a player, at least get your damn facts straight.

but then again, coming from someone that lives in Haterville USA where the population is you, I wouldn't expect you to actually post what players actually said to the media. Most with agendas rarely do...

your credibility is plummeting into negative status as I type...

Scooter
11-27-2011, 08:33 PM
I have believed this for quite some time. Last year's posts were about Antonio Smith being better. Believe me, all the Mario apologists have seen plenty of similar posts early in the year. 5 game winning streak once Mario went down and an upward trend on defense. I wish he was around for depth this year. But, I'll be glad when the year is over and we have the $14 million in cap money to spend elsewhere!

also the meat of our schedule while mario was in and he still had the numbers. i find the reed/barwin comparisons funny because how often does mario go completely unblocked? did mario get to rack up sacks against the david "fetal" carr type failure that is blaine gabbart (twice)? did he get to destroy tennessee or "i hope i dont get sacked 3 times in a row" tampa bay?

i've blasted mario plenty, and assumed that he'd fail spectacularly as a linebacker, but he proved me and everybody wrong against our toughest opponents. health is a concern to a very small degree (in the "what have you done for me lately" category), but if healthy he has 12+ sacks at this point and we're a more overwhelming defense.

BullNation4Life
11-27-2011, 08:35 PM
I have believed this for quite some time. Last year's posts were about Antonio Smith being better. Believe me, all the Mario apologists have seen plenty of similar posts early in the year. 5 game winning streak once Mario went down and an upward trend on defense. I wish he was around for depth this year. But, I'll be glad when the year is over and we have the $14 million in cap money to spend elsewhere!

Please tell me this does not mean that Mario Williams would have been 2nd string to wither Barwin or Reed? Tell me you just did not say that....:vincepalm:

buddyboy
11-27-2011, 09:03 PM
What's the over/under on number of pages this thread ends up having.

I call it at 14 pages. Over or under?

It'll hit about 8, and then get revived several times in the next couple years giving it a grand total of 15.

Over.

VTexan
11-27-2011, 09:05 PM
http://i.imgur.com/IFtXh.jpg

texanfan2002114
11-27-2011, 09:16 PM
Well, considering he was crying about the prospect of playing DE in the 3-4, I guess that's all that matters now. Bye, bye Mario. Where to spend that $14 million? hmmm. A little depth on defense and then some more help on offense? sound good to me!

That money will come down no matter what next year, especially if the Texans tag him with the franchise tag. I saw somewhere this morning on NFLN that the tag # for DE's will go from $13 million down to $10.6 million when the new CBA takes effect. All position tags will go down, so my money is that Mario will be here next year.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8247df3a/article/franchisetag-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

"Quarterback: $14.4 million (down from $16.1 million in 2011, $16.4 million in 2010); Drew Brees

Running back: $7.7 million (down from $9.6 million in 2011, $8.2 million in 2010); Matt Forte, Ray Rice

Wide receiver: $9.4 million (down from 11.4 million in 2011, $9.5 million in 2010); DeSean Jackson, Vincent Jackson*, Steve Johnson, Wes Welker

Tight end: $5.4 million (down from $7.3 million in 2011, $5.9 million in 2010); Fred Davis, Jermichael Finley

Offensive line: $9.4 million (down from $10.1 million in 2011, $10.7 million in 2010); Ben Grubbs, Carl Nicks

Defensive end: $10.6 million (down from $13 million in 2011, $12.4 million in 2010); Jason Jones, Mario Williams*

Defensive tackle: $7.9 million (down from $12.5 million in 2011; it was $7 million in 2010); Paul Soliai*

Linebacker: $8.8 million (down from $10.1 million in 2011, $9.7 million in 2010); Stephen Tulloch

Cornerback: $10.6 million (down from $13.5 million in 2011; tag was $9.6 million in 2010); Cortland Finnegan, Brent Grimes

Safety: $6.2 million (down from $8.8 million in 2011, $6.5 million in 2010); "

Iceman16
11-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Barwin better suited to play OLB in a 3-4 that's all.
And still not better.

HOU-TEX
11-27-2011, 09:23 PM
You're so far from objectivity on this topic that I can't take anything you say seriously.

Or any other topic that has to do with football. Dude lost all credibility a couple years ago.

TexansBull
11-27-2011, 09:24 PM
this falls in the same arguement of those people who say "VY just wins."

Its a Richard Justice type of article that just gets people going without sound logic.

infantrycak
11-27-2011, 09:31 PM
That money will come down no matter what next year, especially if the Texans tag him with the franchise tag. I saw somewhere this morning on NFLN that the tag # for DE's will go from $13 million down to $10.6 million when the new CBA takes effect. All position tags will go down, so my money is that Mario will be here next year.

The position which would apply would be LB not DE since that is what he was playing this year but it is irrelevant as it is the greater of those numbers or last year's compensation plus 20%.

steelbtexan
11-27-2011, 09:38 PM
That money will come down no matter what next year, especially if the Texans tag him with the franchise tag. I saw somewhere this morning on NFLN that the tag # for DE's will go from $13 million down to $10.6 million when the new CBA takes effect. All position tags will go down, so my money is that Mario will be here next year.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8247df3a/article/franchisetag-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

"Quarterback: $14.4 million (down from $16.1 million in 2011, $16.4 million in 2010); Drew Brees

Running back: $7.7 million (down from $9.6 million in 2011, $8.2 million in 2010); Matt Forte, Ray Rice

Wide receiver: $9.4 million (down from 11.4 million in 2011, $9.5 million in 2010); DeSean Jackson, Vincent Jackson*, Steve Johnson, Wes Welker

Tight end: $5.4 million (down from $7.3 million in 2011, $5.9 million in 2010); Fred Davis, Jermichael Finley

Offensive line: $9.4 million (down from $10.1 million in 2011, $10.7 million in 2010); Ben Grubbs, Carl Nicks

Defensive end: $10.6 million (down from $13 million in 2011, $12.4 million in 2010); Jason Jones, Mario Williams*

Defensive tackle: $7.9 million (down from $12.5 million in 2011; it was $7 million in 2010); Paul Soliai*

Linebacker: $8.8 million (down from $10.1 million in 2011, $9.7 million in 2010); Stephen Tulloch

Cornerback: $10.6 million (down from $13.5 million in 2011; tag was $9.6 million in 2010); Cortland Finnegan, Brent Grimes

Safety: $6.2 million (down from $8.8 million in 2011, $6.5 million in 2010); "

Shouldn't MW be getting the 8.8 mil LB $$$$ ?

Didn't MW say he didn't want to play DE in a 3-4 this offseason?

Looking at these numbers finding a WR2 with speed and a vet NT shouldn't be a problem with MW's $$$$.

BTW, Cody has looked much better lately. Dont know if it's the quality of the opposition or he's improving?

texanfan2002114
11-27-2011, 09:46 PM
Nevermind

Lucky
11-27-2011, 09:53 PM
In the past, a franchise tag was derived from averaging the top five salaries at a particular position from the previous season. The new formula is much more complicated and is formed by determining the franchise tags at that position over the last five years as a percentage of the overall cap figure in each of those five years."

His number is coming down if he gets franchised from the way that reads.
No, the franchise tag is the above formula or the player's previous year's salary + 20%. Whichever is higher. Williams' 2010 salary of $14 mill or so, with the added 20%, will trump the formula.

Haven't we been over this ad nauseam?

texanfan2002114
11-27-2011, 09:54 PM
No, the franchise tag is the above formula or the player's previous year's salary + 20%. Whichever is higher. Williams' 2010 salary of $14 mill or so, with the added 20%, will trump the formula.

Haven't we been over this ad nauseam?

It was my bad. :vincepalm: I forgot and was deleting my post while you quoted me!! My Bad!! Sorry!!

thunderkyss
11-27-2011, 09:57 PM
This is the first year in Wade's defense. We don't know how good Mario can be.

And we don't know how good Barwin can be.

I'm going to love seeing this defense with Mario, Reed, & Barwin next year. No doubt about it, Reed & Barwin add a versatility that Mario does not. But, since Wade is so good at making the most of that versatility, we'll probably have the defense of the next 5 to 10 years.

thunderkyss
11-27-2011, 10:01 PM
But, I'll be glad when the year is over and we have the $14 million in cap money to spend elsewhere!

Part of that $14 million will be used to secure Mario for the next 4 years.

He'll probably count for 6-9 million of our cap space, because that's what GMs do.

Kaiser Toro
11-27-2011, 10:16 PM
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mario and Connor approaches - Barwin's Law

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 10:29 PM
also the meat of our schedule while mario was in and he still had the numbers. i find the reed/barwin comparisons funny because how often does mario go completely unblocked? did mario get to rack up sacks against the david "fetal" carr type failure that is blaine gabbart (twice)? did he get to destroy tennessee or "i hope i dont get sacked 3 times in a row" tampa bay?

i've blasted mario plenty, and assumed that he'd fail spectacularly as a linebacker, but he proved me and everybody wrong against our toughest opponents. health is a concern to a very small degree (in the "what have you done for me lately" category), but if healthy he has 12+ sacks at this point and we're a more overwhelming defense.


At least two of Mario's sacks came against Dallas Clark in a one on one matchup. I specifically recall one of Connor Barwin's sacks coming against Jake Long. Meanwhile, I can not recall Mario beating one of the better tackles in football for a sack... ever! I'm sure he did back in 2007 and 2008. But, that's too far back to recall for me.

You are correct that IF (that's a big "if") Mario stayed healthy, he would likely have as many, if not more, sacks that Barwin. However, that is because he is so limited. He can not play the position like Barwin can. He can not successfully drop in coverage. So, Wade was forced to put him in constant pass rush positions. How you can suggest that the defense would be better with him starting the past month, I'm not sure? From a depth stand point, certainly we are better with him than without him. However, barring further injuries, his loss has not hurt the defense at all, and I'd argue that it has helped the defense's growth and development.

EllisUnit
11-27-2011, 10:35 PM
At least two of Mario's sacks came against Dallas Clark in a one on one matchup. I specifically recall one of Connor Barwin's sacks coming against Jake Long. Meanwhile, I can not recall Mario beating one of the better tackles in football for a sack... ever! I'm sure he did back in 2007 and 2008. But, that's too far back to recall for me.

You are correct that IF (that's a big "if") Mario stayed healthy, he would likely have as many, if not more, sacks that Barwin. However, that is because he is so limited. He can not play the position like Barwin can. He can not successfully drop in coverage. So, Wade was forced to put him in constant pass rush positions. How you can suggest that the defense would be better with him starting the past month, I'm not sure? From a depth stand point, certainly we are better with him than without him. However, barring further injuries, his loss has not hurt the defense at all, and I'd argue that it has helped the defense's growth and development.

I disagree i think that wade put him to consistently rush the QB because thats what he's best at.

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 10:35 PM
also the meat of our schedule while mario was in and he still had the numbers. i find the reed/barwin comparisons funny because how often does mario go completely unblocked? did mario get to rack up sacks against the david "fetal" carr type failure that is blaine gabbart (twice)? did he get to destroy tennessee or "i hope i dont get sacked 3 times in a row" tampa bay?

i've blasted mario plenty, and assumed that he'd fail spectacularly as a linebacker, but he proved me and everybody wrong against our toughest opponents. health is a concern to a very small degree (in the "what have you done for me lately" category), but if healthy he has 12+ sacks at this point and we're a more overwhelming defense.


meat of the schedule?:

Indy is pathetic and Mario's 2 sacks were against Dallas Clark.
New Orleans- Mario was horrible against the Saints, including allowing Robert Meachem to seal him for a big run.
Miami- Mario was okay. Connor Barwin outplayed him.
Pittsburgh- Mario played well against a QB that gets sacked a lot and a beat up OLine.
Baltimore- Mario was hurt early in the game.

Mario was not particularly good against good players over that stretch. His opportunities were limited. He was bad against solid but unspectacular tackles in New Orleans. He was okay against Miami but played on the opposite side from Jake Long much of the time. That's about it as far as playing tough competition.

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 10:37 PM
I disagree i think that wade put him to consistently rush the QB because thats what he's best at.

Yes... he's not good at anything else. He can not drop in coverage. That's why they do that. Even Wade commented after the Texans lost Mario that they will compensate for his loss by having more opportunity for disguise and freedom to use Reed in different ways.

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Part of that $14 million will be used to secure Mario for the next 4 years.

He'll probably count for 6-9 million of our cap space, because that's what GMs do.

Unless the market is as aware of Mario's limitations as I am, he is going to command way more than Rick Smith and company will be willing to pay him. He'll be gone after the season unless Kubiak and Smith don't have the guts to make that call. I think they do.

buddyboy
11-27-2011, 10:45 PM
At least two of Mario's sacks came against Dallas Clark in a one on one matchup. I specifically recall one of Connor Barwin's sacks coming against Jake Long. Meanwhile, I can not recall Mario beating one of the better tackles in football for a sack... ever! I'm sure he did back in 2007 and 2008. But, that's too far back to recall for me.

You are correct that IF (that's a big "if") Mario stayed healthy, he would likely have as many, if not more, sacks that Barwin. However, that is because he is so limited. He can not play the position like Barwin can. He can not successfully drop in coverage. So, Wade was forced to put him in constant pass rush positions. How you can suggest that the defense would be better with him starting the past month, I'm not sure? From a depth stand point, certainly we are better with him than without him. However, barring further injuries, his loss has not hurt the defense at all, and I'd argue that it has helped the defense's growth and development.

And one of Barwin's sacks was completely unblocked. Are you going to start creating "true" sack numbers? A new stat that factors in matchup of block, coverage down field, quarterback, and blitz scheme?

It's silly to talk down sacks because of the situation. People get sacks when they're not blocked, and sometimes they don't get credit for sacks when they really created the opportunity.

On another note, the constant pushing of your anti-Mario campaign has taken away any credence you have on this subject, regardless of several somewhat accurate points you make.

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 10:49 PM
And one of Barwin's sacks was completely unblocked. Are you going to start creating "true" sack numbers? A new stat that factors in matchup of block, coverage down field, quarterback, and blitz scheme?

It's silly to talk down sacks because of the situation. People get sacks when they're not blocked, and sometimes they don't get credit for sacks when they really created the opportunity.

On another note, the constant pushing of your anti-Mario campaign has taken away any credence you have on this subject, regardless of several somewhat accurate points you make.


I was responding to another's post about the competition being better during Mario's starts than it has been. I was simply pointing out the inaccuracy of the statement. One of the reasons for the success on defense this season has been the discipline the OLBs have shown. They have consistently been in position and not over-pursued. At least two of Reed's sacks this season and 1 or 2 of Barwin's today are a direct result of that discipline and not an example of their pass rushing technique... I certainly agree with that.

infantrycak
11-27-2011, 10:56 PM
Unless the market is as aware of Mario's limitations as I am, he is going to command way more than Rick Smith and company will be willing to pay him.

Hubris much? So you are more aware than the 31 GM's, HC's and DC's who make up the market?

TejasTom
11-27-2011, 10:56 PM
Baltimore- Mario was hurt early in the game.

It was Oakland.

BullNation4Life
11-27-2011, 11:00 PM
I was responding to another's post about the competition being better during Mario's starts than it has been. I was simply pointing out the inaccuracy of the statement. One of the reasons for the success on defense this season has been the discipline the OLBs have shown. They have consistently been in position and not over-pursued. At least two of Reed's sacks this season and 1 or 2 of Barwin's today are a direct result of that discipline and not an example of their pass rushing technique... I certainly agree with that.

You were simply pointing out the inaccuracy of a statement? So are you the pot or the kettle because most of your statements are inaccurate....

Wolf
11-27-2011, 11:00 PM
goodness Dale

:vincepalm:

BullNation4Life
11-27-2011, 11:01 PM
meat of the schedule?:

Indy is pathetic and Mario's 2 sacks were against Dallas Clark.
New Orleans- Mario was horrible against the Saints, including allowing Robert Meachem to seal him for a big run.
Miami- Mario was okay. Connor Barwin outplayed him.
Pittsburgh- Mario played well against a QB that gets sacked a lot and a beat up OLine.
Baltimore- Mario was hurt early in the game.

Mario was not particularly good against good players over that stretch. His opportunities were limited. He was bad against solid but unspectacular tackles in New Orleans. He was okay against Miami but played on the opposite side from Jake Long much of the time. That's about it as far as playing tough competition.

again get your facts straight. Mario Williams didn't play against Baltimore, he was hurt early against Oakland.

:vincepalm:

BullNation4Life
11-27-2011, 11:03 PM
Hubris much? So you are more aware than the 31 GM's, HC's and DC's who make up the market?

and of those 31 GMs, HC and DC ALL would take Mario Williams faster than they could write the check....

Scooter
11-27-2011, 11:05 PM
nevermind - alcohol induced posting today.

DocBar
11-27-2011, 11:19 PM
I've resisted as long as I can. Barwin+Reed~ Barwin+Williams as far as play goes. Barwin+Reed a helluva lot cheaper for the same(ish) production. Is keeping MW gonna be worth the cap hit and can we afford it to start with?

PapaL
11-27-2011, 11:23 PM
What's the over/under on number of pages this thread ends up having.

I call it at 14 pages. Over or under?

I call 10.

Over/Under

dalemurphy
11-27-2011, 11:37 PM
Let's look at that 2009 draft again, huh:

Brian Cushing
Connor Barwin
Glover Quin
Brice McCain
Tim Jamison... all looked pretty darn good today.


I have yet to re-watch but it appeared to be Quin's best game at safety this year upon the initial viewing.

DocBar
11-27-2011, 11:39 PM
Let's look at that 2009 draft again, huh:

Brian Cushing
Connor Barwin
Glover Quin
Brice McCain
Tim Jamison... all looked pretty darn good today.


I have yet to re-watch but it appeared to be Quin's best game at safety this year upon the initial viewing.That draft is looking very good right now.

HJam72
11-28-2011, 05:38 AM
Barwin the Barbarian.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
11-28-2011, 07:48 AM
Barwinning

mussop
11-28-2011, 07:57 AM
also the meat of our schedule while mario was in and he still had the numbers. i find the reed/barwin comparisons funny because how often does mario go completely unblocked? did mario get to rack up sacks against the david "fetal" carr type failure that is blaine gabbart (twice)? did he get to destroy tennessee or "i hope i dont get sacked 3 times in a row" tampa bay?

i've blasted mario plenty, and assumed that he'd fail spectacularly as a linebacker, but he proved me and everybody wrong against our toughest opponents. health is a concern to a very small degree (in the "what have you done for me lately" category), but if healthy he has 12+ sacks at this point and we're a more overwhelming defense.

Please explain "the meat of the schedule"? And quit blowing up the "completely unblocked" excuse. Reed got a couple of sacks against Cleveland unblocked, Barwin got one last night and you're acting like they shouldn't get credit for any of the sacks they have gotten? And yes Mario got at least one of his sacks this year where he was unblocked.

Again, "our toughest opponents"? And since you can tell the future am I goingto win the lottery anytime soon?

This isn't directed at you scooter but another thing. I'm so tired of hearing how since Mario went out the other players up front aren't as effective. And everyone wants to point to A Smith as proof. What no one Pimping that theory wants to recognize is that Smith has been playing with a hurt shoulder that whole time. Also Cushing has been lighting it up so how come Mario's absence hasn't effected his play?

And for the record I'm not agreeing with Dale that Barwin is a better player than Mario. I just think the hype machine about Mario as a LB needs to be turned down a notch. He was not setting the world on fire. He was not looking like the next coming of Ware or Shawne Merriman. He did look like he was starting figure out the position but he was no where near the presence alot of people here declare he was.

Ill tell you what is funny is that most if the people that pointed to his sack total as proof that he was on his way to canton as a LB are now dissing Reed and Barwins sack total.

TimeKiller
11-28-2011, 08:40 AM
Let's look at that 2009 draft again, huh:

Brian Cushing
Connor Barwin
Glover Quin
Brice McCain
Tim Jamison... all looked pretty darn good today.


I have yet to re-watch but it appeared to be Quin's best game at safety this year upon the initial viewing.

This is turning into a pet peeve for me, probably due to Foster's emergence but what round was Tim Jamison drafted in again? UNdrafted free agent. NOT part of the draft. Couldn't possibly be less drafted. You, me, Arian and Timmy Jam were all drafted in the same round. The never round.

Sorry.

Anyway, Quin was indeed lights out today. He really brings the wood and as a deep cover man is a plus. Marcedes Lewis is a tough cover and despite his dropsy had a horrible day going against GQ. Moving him to S was a stroke of genius.

There is a lot to be said for Barwin, he's one of my favorite players and there are great things in his future. This discussion is absolutely weak though. I commend you for sticking your opinion out there to be torn apart, nice huevos but I also laugh at you for being so ridiculous.

Dishman
11-28-2011, 08:43 AM
LOL @ "the never round" of which I am a proud member, as well.

Porky
11-28-2011, 11:35 AM
Dale murphy - get a grip is about all I can say.

And you do realize that more than sack numbers need to be analyzed when comparing the two players right. This is a worthless discussion unless you are comparing money spent vs. production, but as far as the two players straight up it isn't even close.

steelbtexan
11-28-2011, 11:44 AM
Dale murphy - get a grip is about all I can say.

And you do realize that more than sack numbers need to be analyzed when comparing the two players right. This is a worthless discussion unless you are comparing money spent vs. production, but as far as the two players straight up it isn't even close.

Agreed

But the $$$$ would be better spent on other FA's.

Could you imagine this defense with another CB like Joseph? Or another WR like AJ? This is the type of $$$$ that your talking about comitting to MW. He's not worth it IMHO. In addition to using those $$$$ to fill the other holes in FA.

Texecutioner
11-28-2011, 11:48 AM
I'll slide on in here and take Dale Murphy's back for a change on this one.

I"m not sure if Barwin is simply better than Mario, but we're getting a ton of more pressure from that side than we've ever gotten with Mario there by himself. Barwin is definitely more explosive in my eyes. I"ve never seen Mario be as effective as Barwin was yesterday. Bottom line, this team has been way better at getting to the passer without Mario on the field this season. The Texans have never had a good pass rush since their inception until this season and coincidentally it's when Mario isn't playing. I think we've got plenty of guys that can rush the passer now to where we don't need to resign Mario, and can use that money on other positions to make this football team overall a better team.

To Mario's defense though, he did start off the season looking great and he didn't exactly get his full season to show how well he'd look in this new defense for a full season.

GuerillaBlack
11-28-2011, 11:54 AM
Unless the market is as aware of Mario's limitations as I am, he is going to command way more than Rick Smith and company will be willing to pay him. He'll be gone after the season unless Kubiak and Smith don't have the guts to make that call. I think they do.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/mcratz/Gifs/th_Trollin.gif

Rey
11-28-2011, 11:54 AM
He did look like he was starting figure out the position but he was no where near the presence alot of people here declare he was.

Ill tell you what is funny is that most if the people that pointed to his sack total as proof that he was on his way to canton as a LB are now dissing Reed and Barwins sack total

I think Barwin and Reed would look even better playing opposite Mario.

I think a rotation of Barwin Mario and Reed would be impossible to stop.

I think if you have Barwin, Mario and Reed and one of them gets banged up you don't miss a whole, whole lot.

If the money doesn't work, trade him and get assets. If the money does work (and I think it will be worked out) sign him and keep it moving.

Say Watt
11-28-2011, 12:01 PM
There is no reason to mock Mario just to give Barwin the praise he deserves. This was Barwin's first HUGE game. Let us see a few more of those before we start essentially calling Barwin the best player on our defense.

ThaShark316
11-28-2011, 12:04 PM
meat of the schedule?:

Indy is pathetic and Mario's 2 sacks were against Dallas Clark.
New Orleans- Mario was horrible against the Saints, including allowing Robert Meachem to seal him for a big run.
Miami- Mario was okay. Connor Barwin outplayed him.
Pittsburgh- Mario played well against a QB that gets sacked a lot and a beat up OLine.
Baltimore- Mario was hurt early in the game.

Mario was not particularly good against good players over that stretch. His opportunities were limited. He was bad against solid but unspectacular tackles in New Orleans. He was okay against Miami but played on the opposite side from Jake Long much of the time. That's about it as far as playing tough competition.


So based on your logic, Barwin's sacks this past week came against a weak team.

Have you lost your mind? Told y'all this fan base is retarded.

BigBull17
11-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Agreed

But the $$$$ would be better spent on other FA's.

Could you imagine this defense with another CB like Joseph? Or another WR like AJ? This is the type of $$$$ that your talking about comitting to MW. He's not worth it IMHO. In addition to using those $$$$ to fill the other holes in FA.

And comming from you or anyone else, people think and analyse the situation and weigh pros and cons. When Dale mentions it, his complete lack of objectivity make people crindge and bristle. For whatever reason, I think Mario stole his lunch money or something, he HATES him. I said a long time ago, that if our defense shows no let down then we should look into franchise and trade. Just any opinion voiced by Dale falls on many deaf ears.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 12:39 PM
Agreed

But the $$$$ would be better spent on other FA's.

Could you imagine this defense with another CB like Joseph? Or another WR like AJ? This is the type of $$$$ that your talking about comitting to MW. He's not worth it IMHO. In addition to using those $$$$ to fill the other holes in FA.

We don't know what kind of money we're talking about. Rick Smith can structure the contract all kinds of ways & minimize his cap hit.

Mario is worth something in cap space... $4 Million, $6 Million, $9 Million....

I seriously doubt he will continue to count $14 Million a year for the duration of his contract. Nobody but a QB would get a deal like that.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 12:45 PM
I think we've got plenty of guys that can rush the passer now to where we don't need to resign Mario, and can use that money on other positions to make this football team overall a better team.

To Mario's defense though, he did start off the season looking great and he didn't exactly get his full season to show how well he'd look in this new defense for a full season.

I can agree with some of this. I wouldn't put too much stock into what happened @Jacksonville. Impressive, don't get me wrong I'm not saying any different.

But, I will say what I've said all year long. When we play a team with a decent offense if we can't get pressure without blitzing, we're going to be in trouble.

Doesn't mean that we would get pressure with Mario, just that I think our odds are better with Barwin, Reed, & Mario. That just sounds like an awesome rotation to me. Something Mario has never had his whole career here. Which is why he play's hurt, because we never got help from the other guys. Mario was never the problem.

Again, if Barwin & Reed continue to impress, I'm open to life without Mario. I just don't think we've reached a point (yet) to say Mario is expendable.

Dishman
11-28-2011, 01:29 PM
I'll slide on in here and take Dale Murphy's back for a change on this one.

I"m not sure if Barwin is simply better than Mario, but we're getting a ton of more pressure from that side than we've ever gotten with Mario there by himself. Barwin is definitely more explosive in my eyes. I"ve never seen Mario be as effective as Barwin was yesterday. Bottom line, this team has been way better at getting to the passer without Mario on the field this season. The Texans have never had a good pass rush since their inception until this season and coincidentally it's when Mario isn't playing. I think we've got plenty of guys that can rush the passer now to where we don't need to resign Mario, and can use that money on other positions to make this football team overall a better team.

To Mario's defense though, he did start off the season looking great and he didn't exactly get his full season to show how well he'd look in this new defense for a full season.

There is absolutely no correlation between Mario's absence and the high-level of play by the defense, particularly the LB spot. As you suggest it is coincidence only. The spectacular defense we see is due to the combination of talent, a real D-coordinator on Phillips, and a respectable secondary courtesy of J-Jo. To suggest otherwise is dishonest, in my opinion.

I think the D gets along fine without him, as has already been proven, but I'd certainly love to have him back at the right price for his position. I think the prudent thing for the Texan's FO to do is to franchise Mario next year which provides them a full season to see how he works out or if he is again injured for a significant portion of the season. If he stays healthy and the performance isn't there then a trade scenario should be visited.

Texecutioner
11-28-2011, 01:43 PM
There is absolutely no correlation between Mario's absence and the high-level of play by the defense, particularly the LB spot. As you suggest it is coincidence only. The spectacular defense we see is due to the combination of talent, a real D-coordinator on Phillips, and a respectable secondary courtesy of J-Jo. To suggest otherwise is dishonest, in my opinion.

I think the D gets along fine without him, as has already been proven, but I'd certainly love to have him back at the right price for his position. I think the prudent thing for the Texan's FO to do is to franchise Mario next year which provides them a full season to see how he works out or if he is again injured for a significant portion of the season. If he stays healthy and the performance isn't there then a trade scenario should be visited.

None of that really matters when I've been able to see Mario for like 5+ years at his position and disappear in games. He's been inconsistent a lot and I don't care what anyone says, HE TAKES PLAYS OFF!!! He did in college and that was the biggest knock on him coming into the league by all scouts. I've seen the exact type of player in the NFL on the Texans where he looks very dominant at times, but then goes away for long stretches of games where I watch him and I don't see a "non stop motor" player in the game. Mario has never been that dominant pass rusher that effects opposing team's QB's all game long to where they're just out of their zone. He has spurts where he plays great and looks like a monster, but he has never been that guy consistently. I don't care what kind of defensive systems we've had in the past either.

Another thing to add is that I've never heard anyone talk about Mario having one of the greatest work ethics on the team on and off the practice field. He's never been that guy that you hear about when people say "follow what Mario does" or watch how he works day in and day out as a professional and you'll learn what it's like to be in this league. I've heard that about guys like AJ, Demeco, and even Cushing at times. Never heard that about Mario before, and this was a long winded conversation on the radio one day, and I completely agreed with it.

Bottom line is that our pass rush is better than it's ever been in Texans history when Mario isn't here and we're 8-3 with a ton of other injuries. It's quite obvious to me that this team doesn't "NEED" Mario Williams to be a great team and the money that they pay him can go to some other very good players that they may need to go to that next level.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 02:12 PM
I think the D gets along fine without him, as has already been proven, but I'd certainly love to have him back at the right price for his position. I think the prudent thing for the Texan's FO to do is to franchise Mario next year which provides them a full season to see how he works out or if he is again injured for a significant portion of the season. If he stays healthy and the performance isn't there then a trade scenario should be visited.

I agree with the Haters on this one.

If you're not sure what you've got in Mario after 6 years, it's time to say goodbye. Especially if other teams still see value in him.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 02:17 PM
None of that really matters when I've been able to see Mario for like 5+ years at his position and disappear in games. He's been inconsistent a lot and I don't care what anyone says, HE TAKES PLAYS OFF!!!

I don't believe this. Just saying, & I really don't understand how others can believe it either. I'm watching the same games (I think) & I'm just not seeing it.

4x4tx
11-28-2011, 04:35 PM
I agree, save his salary and sign a stud wr and another CB. Mario at 4-5 mill a year ok maybe, for 12 -20 a year, no way. I like what we have right now, we arent missing him one bit. Lots of hungry guys with high motors vs one overpaid low motor guy. See ya Mario

Dishman
11-28-2011, 06:15 PM
I agree with the Haters on this one.

If you're not sure what you've got in Mario after 6 years, it's time to say goodbye. Especially if other teams still see value in him.

I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 07:00 PM
I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

Don't pay inconsistent players who can't stay healthy and have a questionable motor a lot of money. I'm not sure why this is so upsetting to so many people. Mario is a bit of an underachiever given his athletic ability. Enjoying the under-appreciated player succeed at a high level is something I would think people would embrace. Charles Johnson received a 6 year $72 million contract this year. Would you really give that to Mario? Why? We don't need the guy. Barwin and Reed are clearly good enough to be impact players on an elite defense. Barwin's going to have double digit sacks this season. He's likely to finish with more sacks than Mario ever has, with the exception of 2007. Hmm... who would've predicted Barwin would make this kind of impact? Oh, yeah, ME! (http://www.texansbullblog.com/prediction-2009-texans-draft/news/)

Texecutioner
11-28-2011, 07:40 PM
I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 07:43 PM
Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

Proverbial: Nail on Head, Tex!

Texan_Bill
11-28-2011, 07:48 PM
Mario is obviously a better overall talent, but it's actually hard to argue against the OP. Barwin not only had the 4 sacks, but also had 10 overall tackles... Thats a pretty dadgum day.

So maybe it breaks down like this: Mario is a better athlete, but maybe Barwin is a better "football player"..

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 07:56 PM
Mario is obviously a better overall talent, but it's actually hard to argue against the OP. Barwin not only had the 4 sacks, but also had 10 overall tackles... Thats a pretty dadgum day.

So maybe it breaks down like this: Mario is a better athlete, but maybe Barwin is a better "football player"..

I wouldn't even go that far... yet. But, Barwin is better for our system, I think. If you go back and review the game, those 4 sacks came in a limited number of rushes, because Barwin also dropped in coverage quite a bit... and was effective in doing so. It is that last element that separates him in my opinion... not to mention the fact that he counts $13 million less against the cap this year than Mario does.

buddyboy
11-28-2011, 07:58 PM
Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

The argument presented in the original post was that Connor Barwin is better than Mario due to the face that Barwin has had a 4 sack game and Mario has not and that Mario can't do some things Barwin can. He didn't mention a thing about money, simply that Barwin: better than mario? Yes! Because he's had a 4 sack game and can do things Mario can't.

Since you've backed up dale this far, are you willing to say that Barwin is better than Mario?

LikeMike
11-28-2011, 08:02 PM
No way Barwin is better than Mario - he just does, what he does extremely well. On at least one of his sacks against Jax he wasn`t blocked at all - he isn`t getting the same kind of attention from the other teams that Mario got (yeah, he also got some of his sacks against TEs...). But that`s ok - with him and Reeds on the outside and Watt and Smith on the inside, we are having a great pass rush. So don`t we need Mario?

I just wanna say this: you don`t let a talent that is in so high regards in this league just walk away. Yeah he is inconsistent and injury prone, but he is still a physical monster that gets a ton of attention. For me there is no question: extend his contract (of course within reason).

We don`t have to keep him for the whole contract - I am pretty sure some teams would love to have him and would throw in some nice assets to get their hands on a premier pass rusher.

But in the end - Id like to see Mario, Barwin and Reed as a three headed monster with one year of experience in a 3-4 next year. Im pretty sure, that the pass rush is fixed for the foreseeable future.

Dishman
11-28-2011, 08:02 PM
Don't pay inconsistent players who can't stay healthy and have a questionable motor a lot of money. I'm not sure why this is so upsetting to so many people. Mario is a bit of an underachiever given his athletic ability. Enjoying the under-appreciated player succeed at a high level is something I would think people would embrace. Charles Johnson received a 6 year $72 million contract this year. Would you really give that to Mario? Why? We don't need the guy. Barwin and Reed are clearly good enough to be impact players on an elite defense. Barwin's going to have double digit sacks this season. He's likely to finish with more sacks than Mario ever has, with the exception of 2007. Hmm... who would've predicted Barwin would make this kind of impact? Oh, yeah, ME! (http://www.texansbullblog.com/prediction-2009-texans-draft/news/)

Good of you to pat yourself on the back and all. I don't plan to sway your opinion as you've made it abundantly (annoyingly?) clear where you stand on Mario. I'm not some myopic fan thinking we need to break the bank on him. I said franchise him and go from there. Trade him if it makes sense, but don't just cut him loose for zilch. The guy has talent and may find Wade Phillips is a great motivator for him.

GlassHalfFull
11-28-2011, 08:10 PM
To Quote Thorn from another thread

will you people please quit posting in this goddamned thread so it will fall off the bottom of the forum page????

Texecutioner
11-28-2011, 08:11 PM
The argument presented in the original post was that Connor Barwin is better than Mario due to the face that Barwin has had a 4 sack game and Mario has not and that Mario can't do some things Barwin can. He didn't mention a thing about money, simply that Barwin: better than mario? Yes! Because he's had a 4 sack game and can do things Mario can't.

Since you've backed up dale this far, are you willing to say that Barwin is better than Mario?

I've been on Dale's side of this for a while and if people weren't so blinded with Mario's "first pick of the draft" status, and had Mario been some 2nd round pick of that draft a lot of people would agree possibly.

Is Barwin better than Mario?? I'm not sure about that, because Barwin has hardly been able to play. He hardly got to play as a rookie and than got hurt last season. I know that this year so far while he has had to be in rotation unlike what Mario has had to do for several years, Barwin is looking more explosive and like a better consistent pass rusher than Mario has ever been. Does Mario have more potential?? Probably so, but one thing I will say without any hesitation is that Barwin plays way harder than Mario does on a play after play basis. People can try to ignore the fact that Mario doesn't go all out 100% of the time, but I will not. The scouts warned people of this when he came out of college and that's who he is. I don't have to have that worry about Barwin or these other young guys who have a lot to prove right now. Mario doesn't have a lot to prove because he's been treated like a god in Houston since he was drafted.

I don't think I'd say that Barwin is better at this point, but I'll definitely say that I'd rather have Barwin going forward. He's very capable of being an impact player consistently, he goes all out on every play, and he'll play here for a smaller contract.

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 08:13 PM
Good of you to pat yourself on the back and all. I don't plan to sway your opinion as you've made it abundantly (annoyingly?) clear where you stand on Mario. I'm not some myopic fan thinking we need to break the bank on him. I said franchise him and go from there. Trade him if it makes sense, but don't just cut him loose for zilch. The guy has talent and may find Wade Phillips is a great motivator for him.

Mario would count $17 million against the cap if we franchised him. It would destroy our off-season and disable our ability to sign and extend Foster and/or Schaub. We will either have to sign him to another long term deal or we will have to let him walk.

Dishman
11-28-2011, 08:14 PM
Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

Are you kidding me with this pointing out who said what about Mario?? If you re-read my post you'd realize I said, "All I'm saying is Mario isn't a negative or a zero", referring to myself, though he certainly has his detractors. You'd also realize I am basically in agreement with you; however, I disagree with this assertion that the D-line is beasting as a result of Mario's absence. Do you really discount a new D-coordinator who knows how to scheme a respectable defense or the addition of Jonathan Joseph, who has been touted around these parts as the best FA signing in Texans history, vastly improving the play of the secondary (which in turn improves the D-line play).

Dishman
11-28-2011, 08:15 PM
Mario would count $17 million against the cap if we franchised him. It would destroy our off-season and disable our ability to sign and extend Foster and/or Schaub. We will either have to sign him to another long term deal or we will have to let him walk.

Fair enough. Then the FO should look to workout a deal with him that's commensurate with his position.

Texan_Bill
11-28-2011, 08:17 PM
Mario would count $17 million against the cap if we franchised him. It would destroy our off-season and disable our ability to sign and extend Foster and/or Schaub. We will either have to sign him to another long term deal or we will have to let him walk.

I'm actually with you in this regard. Barwin and Reed are a waaaaay better value. Personally, at the end of the day, I think we've seen Mario's last game as a Texan. That said, I like Mario a lot but the question is (as you pointed out) should the Texans hamstring their "cap" for Mario??? I think, NO!

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 08:17 PM
Fair enough. Then the FO should look to workout a deal with him that's commensurate with his position.

Charles Johnson got a deal this off-season for 6yrs and $72 million. I would imagine Mario would look for that, at minimum.

Texecutioner
11-28-2011, 08:18 PM
Are you kidding me with this pointing out who said what about Mario?? If you re-read my post you'd realize I said, "All I'm saying is Mario isn't a negative or a zero", referring to myself, though he certainly has his detractors. You'd also realize I am basically in agreement with you; however, I disagree with this assertion that the D-line is beasting as a result of Mario's absence. Do you really discount a new D-coordinator who knows how to scheme a respectable defense or the addition of Jonathan Joseph, who has been touted around these parts as the best FA signing in Texans history, vastly improving the play of the secondary (which in turn improves the D-line play).

I'm not saying that it's because Mario is gone if that's what you felt I was stating. No I"m not saying that because Mario did start off the season looking like he was going to have the best season of his career. He got hurt pretty early though, so we can't really say either way. My thing is that we're having the best pass rush we've ever had by far whether he's in there or not, so Mario is not "a need" here anymore. That much has been proven as the Texans are one of the best pass rushing teams in the entire NFL. Paying Mario ridiculous money simply isn't a financial investment we should take on when we can severely upgrade at DT somehow, upgrade at WR, or get another stud in the secondary. We can still find some GEMS for our pass rush in the draft as well, but I no longer want to pay Mario Williams all this cash when it isn't warranted and we can upgrade in other areas. Right now our pass rush is amongst the top of the league without Mario. Lets fix other positions now and get something for him or let him walk.

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 08:19 PM
I'm actually with you in this regard. Barwin and Reed are a waaaaay better value. Personally, at the end of the day, I think we've seen Mario's last game as a Texan. That said, I like Mario a lot but the question is (as you pointed out) should the Texans hamstring their "cap" for Mario??? I think, NO!

If the 3-4 defense didn't look that good or if Mario was playing DE in a 3-4, then I would be more apt to re-sign him. However, the 3-4 looks great and he's not going to start at DE in the 3-4. Therefore, he simply doesn't have the value for us that he will for some 4-3 teams with a struggling pass rush.

beerlover
11-28-2011, 08:19 PM
charles johnson got a deal this off-season for 6yrs and $72 million. I would imagine mario would look for that, at minimum.

+ 20

Dishman
11-28-2011, 08:33 PM
I'm not saying that it's because Mario is gone if that's what you felt I was stating. No I"m not saying that because Mario did start off the season looking like he was going to have the best season of his career. He got hurt pretty early though, so we can't really say either way. My thing is that we're having the best pass rush we've ever had by far whether he's in there or not, so Mario is not "a need" here anymore. That much has been proven as the Texans are one of the best pass rushing teams in the entire NFL. Paying Mario ridiculous money simply isn't a financial investment we should take on when we can severely upgrade at DT somehow, upgrade at WR, or get another stud in the secondary. We can still find some GEMS for our pass rush in the draft as well, but I no longer want to pay Mario Williams all this cash when it isn't warranted and we can upgrade in other areas. Right now our pass rush is amongst the top of the league without Mario. Lets fix other positions now and get something for him or let him walk.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I know we've spent numerous consecutive high draft picks on the D and we need to focus on other areas. I'm hoping we see some high picks on WR or take a stab at something to shore up our QB position. I think we need to get something in return for Mario eventually. I don't pretend to know the particulars of the NFL CBA, but I hate to see this team let Mario walk for nothing in return. I think the guy can make a big impact on this team still and hopefully at the right price. We have some nice young talent, but they aren't exactly proven.

Texecutioner
11-28-2011, 08:38 PM
Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I know we've spent numerous consecutive high draft picks on the D and we need to focus on other areas. I'm hoping we see some high picks on WR or take a stab at something to shore up our QB position. I think we need to get something in return for Mario eventually. I don't pretend to know the particulars of the NFL CBA, but I hate to see this team let Mario walk for nothing in return. I think the guy can make a big impact on this team still and hopefully at the right price. We have some nice young talent, but they aren't exactly proven.

Dale is putting it about right when he mentions what Charles Johnson got last off season, and that will certainly be what Mario wants at minimum. I wouldn't want to pay Mario even that honestly. Mario still has a big name and there will be a team that will pay him a lot, and I don't want to make that mistake again. I agree that we should try to somehow lock him up to be able to trade him and get something though. I'm right with ya there man.

As much as I'd like to continue to build this team all around, I want to use at least one more draft and focus mainly on defense. I love having a lights out defense like this and we can still keep getting better. I want to have the best defensive team in the league.

dalemurphy
11-28-2011, 08:44 PM
Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I know we've spent numerous consecutive high draft picks on the D and we need to focus on other areas. I'm hoping we see some high picks on WR or take a stab at something to shore up our QB position. I think we need to get something in return for Mario eventually. I don't pretend to know the particulars of the NFL CBA, but I hate to see this team let Mario walk for nothing in return. I think the guy can make a big impact on this team still and hopefully at the right price. We have some nice young talent, but they aren't exactly proven.

A couple things:

1. Free Agents- The money not spent on Mario will likely be allocated to other free agents.

2. Depending on how many FAs we sign relative to how many we lose, Mario loss could net us a 3rd round compensatory pick.

DocBar
11-28-2011, 08:44 PM
I'll slide on in here and take Dale Murphy's back for a change on this one.

I"m not sure if Barwin is simply better than Mario, but we're getting a ton of more pressure from that side than we've ever gotten with Mario there by himself. Barwin is definitely more explosive in my eyes. I"ve never seen Mario be as effective as Barwin was yesterday. Bottom line, this team has been way better at getting to the passer without Mario on the field this season. The Texans have never had a good pass rush since their inception until this season and coincidentally it's when Mario isn't playing. I think we've got plenty of guys that can rush the passer now to where we don't need to resign Mario, and can use that money on other positions to make this football team overall a better team.

To Mario's defense though, he did start off the season looking great and he didn't exactly get his full season to show how well he'd look in this new defense for a full season.The big difference between MW and CB would be in run defense. So far, it's been a wash, but we've been playing with a lead and haven't faced a host of good running teams. How will Barwin do in a close game where he has to honor the run? That's where MW shined. Teams shied away from running at MW. Do they do the same with Barwin? We'll soon find out.

badboy
11-28-2011, 09:05 PM
Neither player has to be better than the other. I want the best team I can get. Barwin is doing great. Brooks is doing very good. We should offer Mario to Patriots for a first and second. We use those picks + our 2013 first to trade up for QB Barkley or Robert Griffin 3. We use $5m of the cap savings to sign OG Carl Nicks. $9 million goes to Foster, Dreesen, Maynard + 2011 salaries.

Our 1st round: Dontari Poe NT, 2nd: Dwight Jones WR 3rd Kevin Riddick ILB

DocBar
11-28-2011, 09:09 PM
Neither player has to be better than the other. I want the best team I can get. Barwin is doing great. Brooks is doing very good. We should offer Mario to Patriots for a first and second. We use those picks + our 2013 first to trade up for QB Barkley or Robert Griffin 3. We use $5m of the cap savings to sign OG Carl Nicks. $9 million goes to Foster, Dreesen, Maynard + 2011 salaries.

Our 1st round: Dontari Poe NT, 2nd: Dwight Jones WR 3rd Kevin Riddick ILBMW is a free agent at the end of the season. The trade deadline passed a few weeks ago. There is no offering MW to anyone. We're in the same boat as the rest of the league and can only hope that teams are skeptical of his injury recovery. Or we can franchise him, I think. Either way, a buttload of money is going MW's way. I just hope he goes out of conference if/whem he leaves.

steelbtexan
11-28-2011, 09:12 PM
Dale and Tex sittin in a tree bustin Marios balls for all to see.

1. Trade Mario for a 1st rd pick.
2. Use the $$$$ saved on MW in FA to sign Soliai and Meachem.
3. Use the 1st gained from trading MW, the Texans 1st/3rd and a 2013 1st to trade up in the draft and take either Barkley or RG3.
4. Extend Foster, If healthy extend Schaub for 2 yrs with team option on 2nd yr.


This would equal my dream offseason. This is the price to pay for a future franchise QB.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 09:19 PM
I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

We know what we're going to get with Mario. If you want that on your team, make him an offer & see if he takes.

Mario is a football player. A complete DE & looked like he was going to be a special OLB.

Imagine Mario, Barwin, & Reed in a defensive rotation, the offense would never get a break. Then on particular situations... If you want a 5 man front, you can put Mario at the 5 with Watt at the nose, Smith at the 3, with Reed & Barwin on the outside.


In response to the 6 year $72Million contract, that could be $6 million against the cap for the first 2 years, $9 million for the 3rd, $12 million for the 4th with the remaining $39 million to be accrued in the last 2 years of the contract. But.... if your GM is smart, & the players agent, you'll renegotiate that contract before year 5 or you cut/trade him.

badboy
11-28-2011, 09:23 PM
MW is a free agent at the end of the season. The trade deadline passed a few weeks ago. There is no offering MW to anyone. We're in the same boat as the rest of the league and can only hope that teams are skeptical of his injury recovery. Or we can franchise him, I think. Either way, a buttload of money is going MW's way. I just hope he goes out of conference if/whem he leaves.I thought it was clear I was talking about the off season? Have to allow another team to know he will probably be healthy. My error.

badboy
11-28-2011, 09:25 PM
Dale and Tex sittin in a tree bustin Marios balls for all to see.

1. Trade Mario for a 1st rd pick.
2. Use the $$$$ saved on MW in FA to sign Soliai and Meachem.
3. Use the 1st gained from trading MW, the Texans 1st/3rd and a 2013 1st to trade up in the draft and take either Barkley or RG3.
4. Extend Foster, If healthy extend Schaub for 2 yrs with team option on 2nd yr.


This would equal my dream offseason. This is the price to pay for a future franchise QB.For some reason I really like this post.

jtexas
11-28-2011, 09:30 PM
Dale and Tex sittin in a tree bustin Marios balls for all to see.

1. Trade Mario for a 1st rd pick.
2. Use the $$$$ saved on MW in FA to sign Soliai and Meachem.
3. Use the 1st gained from trading MW, the Texans 1st/3rd and a 2013 1st to trade up in the draft and take either Barkley or RG3.
4. Extend Foster, If healthy extend Schaub for 2 yrs with team option on 2nd yr.


This would equal my dream offseason. This is the price to pay for a future franchise QB.

By the time RG3 hits draft day he will be a top 5 pick.

badboy
11-28-2011, 09:31 PM
We know what we're going to get with Mario. If you want that on your team, make him an offer & see if he takes.

Mario is a football player. A complete DE & looked like he was going to be a special OLB.

Imagine Mario, Barwin, & Reed in a defensive rotation, the offense would never get a break. Then on particular situations... If you want a 5 man front, you can put Mario at the 5 with Watt at the nose, Smith at the 3, with Reed & Barwin on the outside.


In response to the 6 year $72Million contract, that could be $6 million against the cap for the first 2 years, $9 million for the 3rd, $12 million for the 4th with the remaining $39 million to be accrued in the last 2 years of the contract. But.... if your GM is smart, & the players agent, you'll renegotiate that contract before year 5 or you cut/trade him.Why would Mario sign that? You offer no bonus? Up total and bring a $25m upfront bonus & you might get him to agree.

DocBar
11-28-2011, 09:38 PM
I thought it was clear I was talking about the off season? Have to allow another team to know he will probably be healthy. My error.Healthy or not, MW has no obligation to sign anything at all with the Texans, short of a franchise tag. Did I misunderstand you and you're talking about this year's preseason/pre trade deadline?

steelbtexan
11-28-2011, 09:40 PM
Neither player has to be better than the other. I want the best team I can get. Barwin is doing great. Brooks is doing very good. We should offer Mario to Patriots for a first and second. We use those picks + our 2013 first to trade up for QB Barkley or Robert Griffin 3. We use $5m of the cap savings to sign OG Carl Nicks. $9 million goes to Foster, Dreesen, Maynard + 2011 salaries.

Our 1st round: Dontari Poe NT, 2nd: Dwight Jones WR 3rd Kevin Riddick ILB

Or this

LOL

badboy
11-28-2011, 09:41 PM
By the time RG3 hits draft day he will be a top 5 pick.Not necessarily as it would depend on what teams are top 5. Colts have Luck, Dolphins could take Barkley then three other temas draft that don't need QBs......

Also I want to see RG3 play against Texas after that concussion that took him out of SMU game.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 09:41 PM
A couple things:

1. Free Agents- The money not spent on Mario will likely be allocated to other free agents.


Whatever we pay Mario is not the end-all be-all about what Free agents we can sign. It's more about his cap hit, which is more like funny money. I'm sure there are some guidelines, but a creative capologist can make Mario's cap number very Texans friendly if Mario & his agent agrees.

As an agent/player, I'm more worried about my bonus, the guaranteed money, & the yearly break down. I'll sign a ten year contract to get the Cap number down, as long as the pay-out guarantees a big payday in four years or force a renegotiation.

Like Mario's six year deal. If it weren't for the lock-out, they probably would have redone Mario's contract in the off season. They did "however" renegotiate Schaub's to fit Jjo & Manning under the cap, so it's possible that the Texans aren't sure they want to keep Mario.

So who knows?

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 09:54 PM
Why would Mario sign that? You offer no bonus? Up total and bring a $25m upfront bonus & you might get him to agree.

Who said I didn't offer him a bonus? That's his cap hit. I could have given him $40 million dollars to take that deal.

Cap hit & bonus...... cap hit & salary.... cap hit & value of contract, it's all very fluid. That's my point. I can give him a $40 million bonus, sign him to 8 years & work it so that his cap hit is $5 million a year, or I could have the majority of the bonus accrue in the first three years ($13.3 M) with a $13.3 Million Salary over the next 3 years. & pay the rest off in roster bonuses & what not & the final two years of the contract. I could straight up cut him before year 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 with no dead money.

DocBar
11-28-2011, 10:14 PM
Who said I didn't offer him a bonus? That's his cap hit. I could have given him $40 million dollars to take that deal.

Cap hit & bonus...... cap hit & salary.... cap hit & value of contract, it's all very fluid. That's my point. I can give him a $40 million bonus, sign him to 8 years & work it so that his cap hit is $5 million a year, or I could have the majority of the bonus accrue in the first three years ($13.3 M) with a $13.3 Million Salary over the next 3 years. & pay the rest off in roster bonuses & what not & the final two years of the contract. I could straight up cut him before year 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 with no dead money.Cap your ****. We donlt have the cap space to sign MW without cutting many more impact players from the roster. MW will NOT be a Texan in 2012. As long as he goes out of division and, hopefully conference, we'll be OK.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 10:18 PM
Cap your ****. We donlt have the cap space to sign MW without cutting many more impact players from the roster. MW will NOT be a Texan in 2012. As long as he goes out of division and, hopefully conference, we'll be OK.

If we sign Mario to a longer deal, we can get his number down.... $9 million is probably the most reasonable. It's less than his cap number this year & less than the franchise tag next year.

We make cap room by signing Mario to a long term deal.

Does anyone think Tennessee would have liked to have kept Jason Babin now? Take their 21 sacks & add 8 sacks, they're respectable with 29 sacks right now. Add another 3 or 4 sacks from the rest of the team for the opportunities Babin gives them.... that's 32-33 sacks. They're in the top of the league & their defense is actually helping them win games.

Put Mario on this team & we could be over 40 as a team right now. We'd have a better chance to beat the best teams in the league with that pass rush. I can't stop thinking about Barwin, Reed, & Mario on the field together. Won't happen all the time, I know. But every now & then, I'm sure Wade would throw them all in there.

It's insane (or at least I can't seem to wrap my feeble mind around the idea) to not believe our pass rush would be even better with Mario Williams.

DocBar
11-28-2011, 10:23 PM
If we sign Mario to a longer deal, we can get his number down.... $9 million is probably the most reasonable. It's less than his cap number this year & less than the franchise tag next year.

We make cap room by signing Mario to a long term deal.True, but MW is a UFA and under no restrictions to sign with us. With the display he put on before his injury, he'll be the pick of the FA litter. Couch ot how you want to, MW will be wearing a diffeent uniform in 2012. That's the chance we took by not extending him(wisely) this past offseason.

badboy
11-28-2011, 10:27 PM
Healthy or not, MW has no obligation to sign anything at all with the Texans, short of a franchise tag. Did I misunderstand you and you're talking about this year's preseason/pre trade deadline?My trade would be in offseason. We can work a deal with Mario and then seek a trade. I doubt if he'd complain about going to NE. We can float to Pats we are willing to trade if they are interested, then tag him until deal resolved.

Dishman
11-28-2011, 10:31 PM
Charles Johnson got a deal this off-season for 6yrs and $72 million. I would imagine Mario would look for that, at minimum.

I've never heard of the guy which either tells you I don't know much about football or Charles Johnson doesn't get the run that MW does and probably is a better fit for that contract than Johnson. I'm not advocating that they break the bank on the guy, but make him a fair offer. I'll hope that Barwin and Reed also don't hit a slump/rut, can stay healthy or can adapt when teams figure them out. I think the team needs all the help it can get. 11 games of good defense doesn't have me sold on the defense overall.

Either way I have very little pull with Rick Smith, so I'll continue to cheer for Mario and see what unfolds.

DocBar
11-28-2011, 10:35 PM
My trade would be in offseason. We can work a deal with Mario and then seek a trade. I doubt if he'd complain about going to NE. We can float to Pats we are willing to trade if they are interested, then tag him until deal resolved.MW will be a FA in the offseason. You can't trade a player you don't have the rights to. This is why I statred a trade MW thread in the offseason. We were starting a new season, after which MW would be a UFA, and we hadn't even offered him an extension. Do you really think MW isn't insulted by that? Ain't no way he plays for the Texans next year unless he's franchised.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 10:38 PM
True, but MW is a UFA and under no restrictions to sign with us. With the display he put on before his injury, he'll be the pick of the FA litter. Couch ot how you want to, MW will be wearing a diffeent uniform in 2012. That's the chance we took by not extending him(wisely) this past offseason.

True, but not the point. All this "we can't afford Mario" or this "he's not worth $17 M cap hit" is the point. His cap hit this season has nothing to do with his cap hit next season if the Texans manage to work a deal out with him.

badboy
11-28-2011, 10:40 PM
True, but MW is a UFA and under no restrictions to sign with us. With the display he put on before his injury, he'll be the pick of the FA litter. Couch ot how you want to, MW will be wearing a diffeent uniform in 2012. That's the chance we took by not extending him(wisely) this past offseason.We can franchise him for $13.8m + 20%. *Note in t he new CBA we can use $1.5m in second year towards a vet player. That is a lot but Mario is smart enough to want a long term deal with a huge bonus up front. $25 m up front bonus + first year is much better than $16m.

badboy
11-28-2011, 10:43 PM
MW will be a FA in the offseason. You can't trade a player you don't have the rights to. This is why I statred a trade MW thread in the offseason. We were starting a new season, after which MW would be a UFA, and we hadn't even offered him an extension. Do you really think MW isn't insulted by that? Ain't no way he plays for the Texans next year unless he's franchised.As I state we tag him and then consider trade. This has been doone by teams before. Mario did not utter one word about not getting an extension.

thunderkyss
11-28-2011, 10:51 PM
As I state we tag him and then consider trade. This has been doone by teams before. Mario did not utter one word about not getting an extension.

I think franchising Mario is a safe gamble, someone will come to the table for him.

Unlike Dunta, which pretty much backfired on us. No one wanted him & we were left holding the bag.

steelbtexan
11-28-2011, 10:52 PM
By the time RG3 hits draft day he will be a top 5 pick.

You dont think three #1's and a 3rd would be enough to get into the top 5?

It's a much better deal than the Falcons gave up to move up to 6-7 to get Julio Jones in last yrs draft.