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76Texan
11-16-2011, 01:01 PM
While reading most of the comments on Leinart, I've been going back to watch a bunch of his games, including:
- The comeback victory against ND in 05
- The 06 Rose Bowl vs VY
- The three games in 08 - two of which saw him coming in when the scores were already settled (Vikings and Pats) and a meaningless game in week 17 (Seahawks).
- His first PS game in 2010, as a Cardinal, against us (the Texans)
- And the 4 PS games this year.

(I don't have any of his games in 09)

I feel quite a bit more confident now about him as a QB for us.

I believe he will be alright; on the other hand, we still have to play the games.

In later posts, I will try to give my inputs on the concerns that I've read so far .

HJam72
11-16-2011, 01:06 PM
How dare you study up on a subject and learn something about it before posting about said subject all over these forums.

Now I'm gonna havta read and keep my pie-hole shut. :(

76Texan
11-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Arm stregnth.

I've only seen Leinart throw the ball deep a few times, and they were out a 5-step drop.

The catches were made about 40-44 yards from the LOS (adjusted to a straight line pass).

I imagine that on a 7-step drop, he would be able to throw the ball further.

He also throws well on the run (not from the bootleg) on scramble out of the pocket. I forgot how far the throw was, but it was a fair distance.

Overall, I think he throws on the run about as good as Schaub (both distance-wise and accuracy-wise), maybe even better!?!
Did I just say that?

It's the deep out (from the pocket) where I don't see quite the accuracy (as compared to Schaub).

In the WCO that we run, I would say that Leinart's arm strength shouldn't be a factor. Even though he doesn't have a cannon of an arm, it should be adequate for what we do here.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 01:14 PM
How dare you study up on a subject and learn something about it before posting about said subject all over these forums.

Now I'm gonna havta read and keep my pie-hole shut. :(

LOL, every comments and inputs are welcome as always.

As usual, people can see things differently; ain't nothing wrong with that!

b0ng
11-16-2011, 01:19 PM
I am more interested in his decision making. I know he racked up a lot of turnover in his time with the Cards.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 01:36 PM
Throwing mechanics.

Out of college, some said that Leinart didn't have the consistent knee bend when he steps into the throw.

I think that has to do with him operating mostly out of a 3-step and 5-step drop.
Usually, the QB doesn't have a lot of room to step up.

I don't see that as a problem in the last 5 games I watched (which is more indicative of where his mechanics are.)

A poster thought that he has a long wind-up; I don't see that.
In this regard, I even think that his throwing motion is at least about as good as Schaub (and that means Leinart is ahead of the curve since he hasn't been in the league as long as Schaub.)

He gets the ball out fairly quick.
While he doesn't have the quickest release, it certainly isn't any slower than Schaub.
Once he decided where to go with the ball, he usually gets the ball out on time (and believe me, this is very important for a QB).
A DB cannot react as quick when the QB gets the ball out in a hurry.

Leinart still can do better on the quick and medium out route (so that the CB can't jump the route), but he is far from poor in this regard.
We've seen QBs (including Schaub) got picked off on this type of throw.
Leinart shouldn't be any worse than Schaub in this regard.
While he should continue to work on it, by no mean he's telegraphing the throw.
I'd like to see a little more zip on the ball, however.

Leinart's money throw is probably the slant (and this is good news for AJ, JJ, the TEs and whoever running such route.)
I will come back to this later on.

Touch: Leinart has enough touch on his throw on the medium range pass such that the pass is quite catchable.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 01:38 PM
I am more interested in his decision making. I know he racked up a lot of turnover in his time with the Cards.

I'll get to it, but first I need a little :cowboy1: break!

leebigeztx
11-16-2011, 02:07 PM
Throwing mechanics.

Out of college, some said that Leinart didn't have the consistent knee bend when he steps into the throw.

I think that has to do with him operating mostly out of a 3-step and 5-step drop.
Usually, the QB doesn't have a lot of room to step up.

I don't see that as a problem in the last 5 games I watched (which is more indicative of where his mechanics are.)

A poster thought that he has a long wind-up; I don't see that.
In this regard, I even think that his throwing motion is at least about as good as Schaub (and that means Leinart is ahead of the curve since he hasn't been in the league as long as Schaub.)

He gets the ball out fairly quick.
While he doesn't have the quickest release, it certainly isn't any slower than Schaub.
Once he decided where to go with the ball, he usually gets the ball out on time (and believe me, this is very important for a QB).
A DB cannot react as quick when the QB gets the ball out in a hurry.

Leinart still can do better on the quick and medium out route (so that the CB can't jump the route), but he is far from poor in this regard.
We've seen QBs (including Schaub) got picked off on this type of throw.
Leinart shouldn't be any worse than Schaub in this regard.
While he should continue to work on it, by no mean he's telegraphing the throw.
I'd like to see a little more zip on the ball, however.

[BLeinart's money throw is probably the slant (and this is good news for AJ, JJ, the TEs and whoever running such route.)[/b]
I will come back to this later on.

Touch: Leinart has enough touch on his throw on the medium range pass such that the pass is quite catchable.

I agree and it seems this staple has left the offense. I think andre and crew crossing the face of the defender and matt throwin the skinny post is going to work. Also, matt is a lefty and most times, andre is on theoffenive left.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 02:38 PM
Reading defenses and decision making; playing under pressure.

Before the draft this year I had a little debate with a few posters on QB prospects (including Newton and Gabbert - then extending to Sam Bradford and Leinart).

I said that Leinart didn't play (under pressure) as well as I'd like for a #10 pick.
However, at the time of that draft, I did think that (the Texans) trading down (to what spot, I don't know) to pick up Leinart can be in the card (along with other scenarios like trading with the Jets for their two first rounders.)

It was one of many possibilities that I would be OK with since we needed to fill so many holes (including the QB position - this ought to tell you what I thought of David Carr).
Keep in mind that the Texans would be in rebuilding mode again had they chosen to go this route, but it did make sense because, out of USC, Leinart was and is a good fit for Kubiak's system.
...

I saw that Leinart had improved vastly in this area.
In the 4 games that he played for the Cards that I mentioned in the first post and the 4 PS games this year, Leinart faced a good amount of pressure and fared quite well (or at least, very decent.)

I was actually a little surprise when I looked more carefully at those plays in question.

If I have time, perhaps I can take some screen shots so that everybody can decide for themselves about Leinart's ability to play under pressure; how he went through his reads; how he made his decisions, etc.

Certainly, he can make a few better reads.
Overall, however, I think he did well.

I definitely disagree with the assertion that Leinart made poor reads (I took it to mean: a bit too often.)

I also disagree that he made too many check-down throws.
It may have looked that way because of pressure or due to the play being called.

Quite contrary to such belief, IMO, Leinart has matured markedly.
He understands (for the most part) where the pressure is coming from and made consistent good decisions (again, for the most part.)
Most importantly, there was no "WTF" moment.

Kubiak said that Leinart played well during PS; I agreed 100%.
He played well in all 4 games, including the NO game (even though the stats didn't reflect it: 8-18 for 69 yards.)

Like I've said, he was facing a good amount of pressure.
The key is whether he can handle it when the games count.
None of us can predict that.

The fact that he will face better defenses is counter-balanced by the fact that he was playing with different line-ups (on the O-line) every game (and therefore didn't have quite the protection.)

Overall, I was pleased with what I saw in this facet of his game.
I hope that he can extend those good performances in the next several weeks.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 02:53 PM
Ball handling and play-action fake, as asked by at least one poster that I can remember.

In starked contrast to Gabbert who is simply terrible at it, Leinart performed theses tasks well enough that it fooled me on quite a few occasions.

If he can fool a TV viewer, the chance is good that he can fool a few players on the field that has to sort through the mass of humanity on the line.

Playoffs
11-16-2011, 03:01 PM
I'd like to see a little more zip on the ball, however.That's one of my concerns, as I've noticed many times with Schaub's completions how close the defender's hand was from the ball -- inches.

Really amazing how quickly these guys can close.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 03:14 PM
Other notable points.

Leinart has pretty good mobility and pocket awareness.

I don't see him having happy feet, just wanting to leave the pocket for no reason.
He does feel the pressure and tries to move away from it while keeping his eyes downfield as much as possible.

I'd like for him to finish a little better on those occasions (being a playmaker once in a while), but I will surely settle for him not making a mistake, which is really all we ask for.

So, basically, he demonstrated the ability to extend plays, but he stands to improve on making a few more (better finishing).

Is there anything else on the list that I need to take into account?

Overall, I feel more positive about his handling the position than when the Schaub's news broke.

IMO, Leinart is good enough to make contribution in the Texans' quest for the play-offs.
If he can play as well as I saw of him recently, the offense should be able to move the ball to score 21 points or better in most games.
Knock on wood!

Norg
11-16-2011, 03:18 PM
I think his key game was his prime time game when kurt got injuried for one week it was arozina vs tenn. matt vs vy.

Texn4life
11-16-2011, 04:11 PM
In a previous post I know you mentioned that Leinart throws the slant very well. USC actually got a couple of busts drafted extremely high running that play to perfection in their time there. It was more of a skinny post than a slant that they ran there, but they would kill people with it. Mike Williams and Dwayne Jerrett both used this play to make big names for themselves. If you go back and watch the youtube videos on them you'll see how many big catches they had getting the ball from Leinart. Don't be surprised to see us quite a bit with the size of our receivers.

Texn4life
11-16-2011, 04:33 PM
http://youtu.be/LP9EikgRhag

This is a youtube clip that features Jarrett and Smith at USC, but the majority of the passes are coming from Leinart. Jarrett is killing teams on the skinny post, but you'll see Matt also do some things well off play-action eerily similar to what the Texans will be asking him to do in this offense.

If the Texans make sure Matt does a lot of things coming off of the threat of the run then I think he'll be successful. More than any other position in football with the exception of maybe kicker, Quarterback is a position where confidence is vital. If we get him comfortable early in games making some easy throws then this will go a long way.

thunderkyss
11-16-2011, 04:47 PM
I'm really curious as to how Lienart ended up on this team.

We had just signed Dan O to a lucrative back-up QB contract, three years I think. As if we thought we were set.

Was there someone on the staff who said, "Hey, we gotta go get this guy."

Was it Kubiak? Was he interested in Lienart in 2006... if it weren't for you know who, was Lienart his guy?

Was it Smith, did he say, "We're getting this guy, Gary see what you can do."

Then what really happened this offseason, was he told he would have to compete with TJ in Seattle & decided to stick with our coaches & staff? Or did Carrol(sp) never extend the offer?

Texn4life
11-16-2011, 04:58 PM
I'm really curious as to how Lienart ended up on this team.

We had just signed Dan O to a lucrative back-up QB contract, three years I think. As if we thought we were set.

Was there someone on the staff who said, "Hey, we gotta go get this guy."

Was it Kubiak? Was he interested in Lienart in 2006... if it weren't for you know who, was Lienart his guy?

Was it Smith, did he say, "We're getting this guy, Gary see what you can do."

Then what really happened this offseason, was he told he would have to compete with TJ in Seattle & decided to stick with our coaches & staff? Or did Carrol(sp) never extend the offer?

Those are a lot of questions that you have there, and I doubt that we'll ever get a definitive answer on any of those.

One guess that I have is that Matt probably saw that Tavaris Jackson would probably get the start there......... seeing as he was already familiar with the offense since the OC was in Minnesota and they brought in a receiver he was familiar with in Rice. This is just a guess as to why he stayed.

Regarding him coming in, I'm sure Gary looked at how terrible Dan O wasn't progressing the way he hoped and saw the opportunity to get Leinart after he was released from Arizona. Thinking there would be a time like now when Leinart could make Kubiak look brilliant if he stepped in a played well. There are some people here who think Leinart may thrive in this offense. I don't think anyone had that same belief in Dan O.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 05:18 PM
In a previous post I know you mentioned that Leinart throws the slant very well. USC actually got a couple of busts drafted extremely high running that play to perfection in their time there. It was more of a skinny post than a slant that they ran there, but they would kill people with it. Mike Williams and Dwayne Jerrett both used this play to make big names for themselves. If you go back and watch the youtube videos on them you'll see how many big catches they had getting the ball from Leinart. Don't be surprised to see us quite a bit with the size of our receivers.

Oh no, I wasn't talking about the skinny post or any route that the receiver can get wide open.

If a receiver is wide open, Leinart can find him pretty quickly.

I'm talking about the quick/intermediate slant in the middle of the field.
Leinart undertands the spacing of the LBs in the middle.
If one of them vacates the area, consider it a done deal; ie. he can read defense.

Rey
11-16-2011, 05:24 PM
I think Leinart has the potential to be better than Schaub.

I think he will come in and play close to the level Schaub was playing at and I think that with time he will only get better.

Honestly I'm hoping that he plays so well for the rest of the season and into the play-offs that it's a huge QB controversy heading into the off-season.

Texn4life
11-16-2011, 05:27 PM
Oh no, I wasn't talking about the skinny post or any route that the receiver can get wide open.

If a receiver is wide open, Leinart can find him pretty quickly.

I'm talking about the quick/intermediate slant in the middle of the field.
Leinart undertands the spacing of the LBs in the middle.
If one of them vacates the area, consider it a done deal; ie. he can read defense.

I guess we see it a little different. I never really remember Leinart running a lot of quick slants at USC and that was most of the time where I've seen him. I can't say I watched a lot of his games he played in at Arizona so maybe he did there. A lot of throws I saw him make at USC were mainly safety reads where he would look off the safety and put it up for his receiver to basically just box his man out and get the ball. Definitely never seen every throw he's ever made too, so if you say he's made these types of throws before then I trust your judgment.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 05:30 PM
Based on this article, I think that the Texans had done their due diligence on all the players that enter the draft (and some other candidates that may not be thought as draftable, or marginal) just like any other team and then file it away for future reference.

Leinart certainly fit the bill for Kubiak's system.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5537474

The Houston Texans have emerged as a leading candidate to sign former Arizona Cardinals quarterback Matt Leinart, league sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.

The Texans were one of the first teams to contact Leinart after he was released Saturday (from the Cardinals) and have been among the most interested teams, according to the sources.

Texan_Bill
11-16-2011, 05:37 PM
I am more interested in his decision making. I know he racked up a lot of turnover in his time with the Cards.

I don't think it was decision making as much as it was preparation in the film room. Again, he was really immature and somewhat a prima donna when he came into the league. He's been humbled and by all accounts learned how to be a pro.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 05:43 PM
I guess we see it a little different. I never really remember Leinart running a lot of quick slants at USC and that was most of the time where I've seen him. I can't say I watched a lot of his games he played in at Arizona so maybe he did there. A lot of throws I saw him make at USC were mainly safety reads where he would look off the safety and put it up for his receiver to basically just box his man out and get the ball. Definitely never seen every throw he's ever made too, so if you say he's made these types of throws before then I trust your judgment.

These (the slants) are the throws he made more in the pros; the deeper routes aren't available as often as in college.

I've seen enough of his college tapes (which I have deleted mostly) and I agreed that the deep balls like those skinny posts had made him look good.
There wasn't any doubt in that.
So yeah, I understand what you've been saying.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 05:46 PM
I don't think it was decision making as much as it was preparation in the film room. Again, he was really immature and somewhat a prima donna when he came into the league. He's been humbled and by all accounts learned how to be a pro.

Kinda like TB! :hides:

Double Barrel
11-16-2011, 05:50 PM
There was interest in Leinart from the Seahawks and Redskins, but he wanted to stay with the Texans and the team wanted to keep him.

I'm giving the dude the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 05:53 PM
That's one of my concerns, as I've noticed many times with Schaub's completions how close the defender's hand was from the ball -- inches.

Really amazing how quickly these guys can close.

That, and also, the CBs will play close to the vest at times per the D call (when they know they have "designated" help).

And sometimes, the D will bait the QB.
In one of the games when Wade was with the Broncos, the commentator told a story how one of the Broncos CB said to him the day before the game (in confidence of course) that they will set up Brett Favre for an INT... and sure enough, they did.

They set it up with the CB giving up a pass early on, but then the D played it differently later on during the game and pulled in the INT.

Pretty interesting stuff!

redwhiteANDblue
11-16-2011, 05:56 PM
Here's some clips of Lienart that I took back in training camp. He's probably a lot better now but thought I'd post it here since its an evaluation thread so here you go.


http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/2/jdOvEGKxXQQ

Can't find anyone open so he runs with it



http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/3/YvQW54S6clY

Misses Dorin Dickerson by a couple inches



http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/12/mHxPlH4Zz4k

Can't tell if he's phased by the pressure here but throws it away quickly



http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/18/P1HWKefCLa8

http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/19/ORN8O5MQVtM

http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/22/a4z_eHppgK8

seems indecisive in these plays




http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/23/bGcbI-9k-UU

http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/25/GL7CHuPOzZs

http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/29/ZKrG5g5VvOE

http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/30/EtJ-rjmftmk

good plays that I liked. Quickly delivered the ball and hit the recievers on stride. Good touch on the ball in the corner of the endzone to Maehl

76Texan
11-16-2011, 06:01 PM
I think Leinart has the potential to be better than Schaub.

I think he will come in and play close to the level Schaub was playing at and I think that with time he will only get better.

Honestly I'm hoping that he plays so well for the rest of the season and into the play-offs that it's a huge QB controversy heading into the off-season.

We all want to have a great QB.
I'm just not sure a controversy is a good thing at the QB position.

I'd rather have a franchise QB (not neccessariy the best QB in the league, but somebody you know can do well within your system) and work with him to improve in certain areas.

I don't know how Leinart will pan out, but I doubt that he turns out to be another Aaron Rodgers or anything close to that.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 06:04 PM
Here's some clips of Lienart that I took back in training camp. He's probably a lot better now but thought I'd post it here since its an evaluation thread so here you go.






Nice!

I will pull out my copies and match them plays some other time.

EllisUnit
11-16-2011, 06:57 PM
Arm stregnth.

I've only seen Leinart throw the ball deep a few times, and they were out a 5-step drop.

The catches were made about 40-44 yards from the LOS (adjusted to a straight line pass).

I imagine that on a 7-step drop, he would be able to throw the ball further.

He also throws well on the run (not from the bootleg) on scramble out of the pocket. I forgot how far the throw was, but it was a fair distance.

Overall, I think he throws on the run about as good as Schaub (both distance-wise and accuracy-wise), maybe even better!?!
Did I just say that?

It's the deep out (from the pocket) where I don't see quite the accuracy (as compared to Schaub).

In the WCO that we run, I would say that Leinart's arm strength shouldn't be a factor. Even though he doesn't have a cannon of an arm, it should be adequate for what we do here.

Good analysis. I watched some stuff on him as well, there isnt much NFL footage, so its hard to gauge very much IMO. But i do think our system will fit him as well, the cardinals where a drop back and throw team, we on the other hand move the QB around and i think that will help him.

speedfreek
11-16-2011, 07:38 PM
OMG, look at the separation the receivers had. Even with that
he threw some inaccurate balls.

There's no way the Texans receivers (or any pro receivers) get
THAT much separation all the time

Yikes. That makes me more uneasy about Leinarts ability to
throw with great accuracy.

TJ

http://youtu.be/LP9EikgRhag

This is a youtube clip that features Jarrett and Smith at USC, but the majority of the passes are coming from Leinart. Jarrett is killing teams on the skinny post, but you'll see Matt also do some things well off play-action eerily similar to what the Texans will be asking him to do in this offense.

If the Texans make sure Matt does a lot of things coming off of the threat of the run then I think he'll be successful. More than any other position in football with the exception of maybe kicker, Quarterback is a position where confidence is vital. If we get him comfortable early in games making some easy throws then this will go a long way.

Wolf
11-16-2011, 07:55 PM
goodness speedfreak....I am wondering what your agenda is or what you want out of the Texans..

most posts, I see is negative.. (which is fine) but what can the Texans do now?

speedfreek
11-16-2011, 08:07 PM
what can they do? Quit taking retread QB's that have no shot of being decent and actually draft a guy that is a LEGIT QB.

Kubiak seems to like project QB's. It's like the guy that buys wrecked
corvettes and loads up his driveway and back yard with them in the
hopes of someday getting _one_ of them functional -- but never does.

The Jake Plummer thing was only a MILD success. One success in a line of failures. His next best "creation" was Rosenfels who hasn't done crap
elsewhere either!

He signed Orlovsky for christ sakes!!!

Gary - get someone you dont have to "fix"...

TJ


goodness speedfreak....I am wondering what your agenda is or what you want out of the Texans..

most posts, I see is negative.. (which is fine) but what can the Texans do now?

Texan_Bill
11-16-2011, 08:12 PM
Kinda like TB! :hides:

Professional Drinker?? Yeah, I figured that out at an early age. No professional immaturity here!! :D

Wolf
11-16-2011, 08:23 PM
what can they do? Quit taking retread QB's that have no shot of being decent and actually draft a guy that is a LEGIT QB.

Kubiak seems to like project QB's. It's like the guy that buys wrecked
corvettes and loads up his driveway and back yard with them in the
hopes of someday getting _one_ of them functional -- but never does.

The Jake Plummer thing was only a MILD success. One success in a line of failures. His next best "creation" was Rosenfels who hasn't done crap
elsewhere either!

He signed Orlovsky for christ sakes!!!

Gary - get someone you dont have to "fix"...

TJ

is Dan O there? have you seen what any QB's have done in Kubiak's system besides Carr (early on) ?

who knows what will happen?
will HTM do well? will he suck? we don't know yet

Texn4life
11-16-2011, 08:24 PM
OMG, look at the separation the receivers had. Even with that
he threw some inaccurate balls.

There's no way the Texans receivers (or any pro receivers) get
THAT much separation all the time

Yikes. That makes me more uneasy about Leinarts ability to
throw with great accuracy.

TJ

The system that USC ran was incredible and created a lot of opportunities for guys. I can't say that he was inaccurate at USC because he didn't have to be accurate. Just like Schaub doesn't have to be ridiculously accurate in this system because of the separation that guys get off play-action, it'll be the same way for Leinart. How many times have people on this board complained about Schaub not getting the ball out to Andre well enough on deep passes to allow him to catch and run with the ball? It's very rare that Schaub gets asked to squeeze a ball into tight spaces.

Leinart will have to make solid reads and deliver the ball on time. Can he be accurate enough in our system? That's the million dollar question right now. Only time will tell I guess.

TexCanada
11-16-2011, 08:25 PM
what can they do? Quit taking retread QB's that have no shot of being decent and actually draft a guy that is a LEGIT QB.


That doesn't really answer the question, because that is not something the Texans can do now. All they can do know is see what type of QB they have in Matt2, or possibly bring in a FA.

Kubiak has confidence in Matt2, so we might as well see what he can do before we get negative towards Kubiak about the situation.

Hervoyel
11-16-2011, 08:50 PM
We're ten games into the season so we'll be finishing this campaign up with the guys we have I would assume. It's a little late to do more than take "draft a guy that is a LEGIT QB" under advisement for next season.

It's Leinart, Yates, or call it a season right now.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 09:22 PM
OMG, look at the separation the receivers had. Even with that
he threw some inaccurate balls.

There's no way the Texans receivers (or any pro receivers) get
THAT much separation all the time

Yikes. That makes me more uneasy about Leinarts ability to
throw with great accuracy.

TJ

Criticism is good if the critic is on point.

Here, I must disagree with your criticism, however.

All those throws in that one vid are accurate in my book considering the receiver routes and the coverages.

They are all highly catchable balls at the NFL level.
(They were all caught at the collegiate level; so if an NFL receiver can't catch any one of those balls, it is called a drop.)

76Texan
11-16-2011, 09:39 PM
We're ten games into the season so we'll be finishing this campaign up with the guys we have I would assume. It's a little late to do more than take "draft a guy that is a LEGIT QB" under advisement for next season.

It's Leinart, Yates, or call it a season right now.

Besides that, SF's premises are all mixed up.

He said that Kubiak likes projects, but can never make any of them better.

Well, for one, very few QBs drafted in the first round are shoed-in to be great.
Some of them became bust.
Many of them turned out to be bad to mediocre.

Then he wants to solve the problem at hand by drafting a first rounder next year?
How ridiculous is that suggestion!?!

JimBaker488
11-16-2011, 09:41 PM
Wasn't Leinart the Cards QB vs the Bears when HC Denny Green had his infamous post game rant about the Bears being "who we thought they were" ?

DocBar
11-16-2011, 09:46 PM
Wasn't Leinart the Cards QB vs the Bears when HC Denny Green had his infamous post game rant about the Bears being "who we thought they were" ?can't get anything past you....

DocBar
11-16-2011, 09:50 PM
Kinda like TB! :hides:Who's TB? Texan Bill has never watched NFL film. I can't think of an NFL acronym that has titties or a pole in it.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 09:58 PM
Who's TB? Texan Bill has never watched NFL film. I can't think of an NFL acronym that has titties or a pole in it.

We need to advise the NFL to retain all those cheerleaders shots in their game tapes, LOL!

Texn4life
11-16-2011, 10:03 PM
Wasn't Leinart the Cards QB vs the Bears when HC Denny Green had his infamous post game rant about the Bears being "who we thought they were" ?

I remember that game, and the biggest thing I remember is the Bears were undefeated going in. Leinart was actually shredding the Bears to start off with, and the announcers started proclaiming him one of the best rookie QB's they had ever seen. Then........ the bottom fell out with a couple of turnovers and the rest is history.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 10:14 PM
I remember that game, and the biggest thing I remember is the Bears were undefeated going in. Leinart was actually shredding the Bears to start off with, and the announcers started proclaiming him one of the best rookie QB's they had ever seen. Then........ the bottom fell out with a couple of turnovers and the rest is history.

Full Story
Bears stage unlikely comeback win


GLENDALE, Ariz. (Oct. 16, 2006) -- Six turnovers, 3 points on offense, and somehow the Chicago Bears are still unbeaten.

Somehow, some way, the Bears rallied from 20 points down at halftime and escaped with a 24-23 victory in Arizona, leaving the shellshocked Cardinals to ponder yet another excruciating late-game collapse.

"Sometimes, when you're a team of destiny, things like that happen," Chicago coach Lovie Smith said.

The Bears are off to their best start in 20 years at 6-0. For that, they can thank their defense, punt returner Devin Hester and Arizona kicker Neil Rackers.

Rex Grossman gets no credit for this one.


"I've never played so bad and won a game like that," said the Bears quarterback, who threw four interceptions and lost two fumbles. "It was unbelievable."

Down 20-0 at halftime, Chicago returned two fumbles for touchdowns in the second half. Then Hester returned a punt 83 yards for a score with 2:58 remaining to take the lead.


Matt Leinart, who threw two first-quarter touchdowns and finished 24 for 42 for 232 yards, coolly directed Arizona downfield at the finish for a chance to claim a victory that appeared to be the Cardinals' all night.

But Rackers, a Pro Bowl kicker last season who connected from 41, 28 and 29 yards earlier in the evening, missed a 41-yarder to the left with 53 seconds left for what would have been the game winner for Arizona (1-5).

"I was ready to hit it," he said. "Unfortunately I hit the ground first, then I felt extremely sick to my stomach for my teammates and coaches and everybody else who deserved to win this game."

Just last week, he missed a 51-yard attempt at the finish that would have sent the game against Kansas City into overtime.

MEGA SWATT
11-16-2011, 10:17 PM
Wasn't Leinart the Cards QB vs the Bears when HC Denny Green had his infamous post game rant about the Bears being "who we thought they were" ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIpHUyiuhE
:jogger:

Texn4life
11-16-2011, 10:22 PM
Full Story
Bears stage unlikely comeback win


GLENDALE, Ariz. (Oct. 16, 2006) -- Six turnovers, 3 points on offense, and somehow the Chicago Bears are still unbeaten.

Somehow, some way, the Bears rallied from 20 points down at halftime and escaped with a 24-23 victory in Arizona, leaving the shellshocked Cardinals to ponder yet another excruciating late-game collapse.

"Sometimes, when you're a team of destiny, things like that happen," Chicago coach Lovie Smith said.

The Bears are off to their best start in 20 years at 6-0. For that, they can thank their defense, punt returner Devin Hester and Arizona kicker Neil Rackers.

Rex Grossman gets no credit for this one.


"I've never played so bad and won a game like that," said the Bears quarterback, who threw four interceptions and lost two fumbles. "It was unbelievable."

Down 20-0 at halftime, Chicago returned two fumbles for touchdowns in the second half. Then Hester returned a punt 83 yards for a score with 2:58 remaining to take the lead.


Matt Leinart, who threw two first-quarter touchdowns and finished 24 for 42 for 232 yards, coolly directed Arizona downfield at the finish for a chance to claim a victory that appeared to be the Cardinals' all night.

But Rackers, a Pro Bowl kicker last season who connected from 41, 28 and 29 yards earlier in the evening, missed a 41-yarder to the left with 53 seconds left for what would have been the game winner for Arizona (1-5).

"I was ready to hit it," he said. "Unfortunately I hit the ground first, then I felt extremely sick to my stomach for my teammates and coaches and everybody else who deserved to win this game."

Just last week, he missed a 51-yard attempt at the finish that would have sent the game against Kansas City into overtime.

That's about how I remember it........ The thing is that Bears defense was being talked about being one of the best in the history of the NFL, and Leinart handled himself extremely well in that game. This is all going to be a confidence issue with him. If he plays poorly against the Jags then we're in trouble I think.

I hate to say it, but we'll almost have to handle him like a rookie making his first career start. Not because he's not capable of playing better than most rookies, but just because I don't think you want a QB with a fractured ego heading into the final 5 games. Foster, Tate, and Ward better start stretching right now for Jax.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 10:37 PM
Here's some clips of Lienart that I took back in training camp. He's probably a lot better now but thought I'd post it here since its an evaluation thread so here you go.

1
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/2/jdOvEGKxXQQ

Can't find anyone open so he runs with it


2
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/3/YvQW54S6clY

Misses Dorin Dickerson by a couple inches


3
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/12/mHxPlH4Zz4k

Can't tell if he's phased by the pressure here but throws it away quickly





1. Notice how he kept his eyes downfield while scrambling toward the side line.

2. Looks like Brooks Reed was coming, forcing Leinart to throw it a little sooner than he wanted to.

3. There was a LB blitz. Looks like 51 Sharpton was on Leinart as he got rid of the ball.

PS - Man, you got great quality videos there!

DexmanC
11-16-2011, 10:43 PM
I do know that Schaub has never executed a back shoulder fade to Dre in the endzone.
Leinart is far more talented than Rosenfels, slightly more talented than Schaub, yet
you guys are biting fingernails and sweating bullets. Dude takes over a team that
is stacked.all over the offensive side, and has one of the best defenses in the
league.

As long as he plays EXACTLY LIKE SAGE, this team won't miss a beat. He's GUARANTEED
to be better than Sage, and may even give Schaub a run for his money.

Peace.

Shaft75
11-16-2011, 10:52 PM
I do know that Schaub has never executed a back shoulder fade to Dre in the endzone.
Leinart is far more talented than Rosenfels, slightly more talented than Schaub, yet
you guys are biting fingernails and sweating bullets. Dude takes over a team that
is stacked.all over the offensive side, and has one of the best defenses in the
league.

As long as he plays EXACTLY LIKE SAGE, this team won't miss a beat. He's GUARANTEED
to be better than Sage, and may even give Schaub a run for his money.

Peace.

What he said..

76Texan
11-16-2011, 11:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/18/P1HWKefCLa8


seems indecisive


Looks like good coverage by RCB Allen and nickle back Harris.
His intended target seems to be 18, but Nolan was right with him.
Leinart looked there first and saw all three on his left well covered.
He looked for the slant route, but it probably wasn't there either.

At this point, I think we simulate the situation where the QB has to leave the pocket to buy some more time.

The most outside receiver was 20 Slaton who was well covered by Allen;
the second one was 15 Maehl, who slipped, and Harris was in step with him all the way.

As he scrambled to his left, Leinart tried to put the ball outside where it's most difficult for Nolan to reach.

Nolan was still able to deflect that pass, however.
Good job by Nolan.

But I don't see anything wrong with the QB's play, JMO.

thunderkyss
11-16-2011, 11:07 PM
I do know that Schaub has never executed a back shoulder fade to Dre in the endzone.
Leinart is far more talented than Rosenfels, slightly more talented than Schaub, yet
you guys are biting fingernails and sweating bullets. Dude takes over a team that
is stacked.all over the offensive side, and has one of the best defenses in the
league.

As long as he plays EXACTLY LIKE SAGE, this team won't miss a beat. He's GUARANTEED
to be better than Sage, and may even give Schaub a run for his money.

Peace.

Dex.. you are a model of optimism.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 11:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/19/ORN8O5MQVtM


seems indecisive




A timing route to 82 Tolliver (?)
Good coverage by Allen.

Looks like they were just practicing to see how Toliver fight for the ball; otherwise, we might see it turning into a fade here.

There was always the possibility of the fade; if so, it wasn't the best throw by Leinart.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 11:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/22/a4z_eHppgK8

seems indecisive



His first read was the TE (86) Casey on his right.
The TE was cut off nicely by either 29, 39 or 59.

Again, I think we simulate Leinart scrambling out of the pocket.

As he did, there was nobody open so Leinart just threw the ball away.

The corner route (84 Darling?) was double teamed by Allen (?) and the safety.
The quick out underneath by 15 Maehl was well covered by Harris.
Sharpton jumped on the hot route (27 RB Obi out of the backfield.

DexmanC
11-16-2011, 11:47 PM
Dex.. you are a model of optimism.

I heard people bellyaching about Schaub starting over Sage for two years.
Leinart is a hell of a lot better than Sage, with much less responsibility
of this team falling on the quarterback position. Schaub only had to throw
the ball 15 times against the Bucs.

Simple math would tell us there is no need for panic. It sucks that I gotta
wait till after Thanksgiving to see this thing come together.

Peace.

76Texan
11-16-2011, 11:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/23/bGcbI-9k-UU

Here's one of the slant routes I was talking about.
Leinart looked left to lure the LB 52 to the outside.
He then came back to the inside on the slant, seeing that the other LB 91 was already taken away by another receiver (nobody in the middle).

leebigeztx
11-16-2011, 11:57 PM
I do know that Schaub has never executed a back shoulder fade to Dre in the endzone.
Leinart is far more talented than Rosenfels, slightly more talented than Schaub, yet
you guys are biting fingernails and sweating bullets. Dude takes over a team that
is stacked.all over the offensive side, and has one of the best defenses in the
league.

As long as he plays EXACTLY LIKE SAGE, this team won't miss a beat. He's GUARANTEED
to be better than Sage, and may even give Schaub a run for his money.

Peace.

This is why I read before I post a comment. This is exactly how I feel about the situation. Let it be known that I'm not a big leinhart fan, but to read comments about how hard it will be to replace a avg talent like schaub is way overboard.

If you look up system qb, you will find schaubs picture next to the definition. Just as you would leinhart, haselback and a few other. Leinhart is just as talented if not more so than schaub. Its not like we're comparing leinhart to elway or marino or any great qb. Schaub doesn't posses 1 skill leinhart doesn't have. What schaub has is probably more confidence in what he's doing because he's been in this system longer, but there are things that leinhart will do better than schaub. He has better feet inside the pocket and outside, he throws better on the run, the quick slant and back shoulder fade will be more prominent. Leinhart taking over this team as currently built is his chance. I doubt the offense will change and I'm not sure production will either.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 12:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/25/GL7CHuPOzZs

3 plays in one vid here.

1. Another money-in-the-bank slant.
Leinart knew that the single deep safety Nolan would be occupied by the post route from the left.
One of the LBs followed the shallow slant/crossing route from right to left.
There was nobody left to help on 22 McMannis on the slant (also from right to left.)
This is reading the defense; it's not simply the case of a QB looking for an open receiver.

2. The corner route to Maehl.
Leinart saw the blitz coming; it means the nickle back McMannis has a lot of space to cover one on one against the slot receiver, not an easy task.

3. Again, Leinart saw the LB blitz coming.
With the RB picking up the blitz, his hot route was the TE Daniel, whom he went to immediately.

Playoffs
11-17-2011, 12:22 AM
Leinart is a hell of a lot better than Sage, with much less responsibility
of this team falling on the quarterback position.
Yes, but can he 'copter?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3_hi7gOjE0

76Texan
11-17-2011, 12:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/user/RWDtexans#p/u/29/ZKrG5g5VvOE




The deep crosser running right to left (15 Maehl) drew the double team.
The hot route (RB swinging out to the flat) was jumped by the LB (51?)
His next read (best option) is the shallow cross left to right (another form of the slant).
This type of throw needs to be quick (on time) before the CB can react and help can arrive.
Again, this is the type of throw that I see as money in the bank for Leinart.

b0ng
11-17-2011, 12:37 AM
I don't get how anybody could come to any sort of conclusion about how much more talented Matt Leinart is than Sage Rosenfels or whomever. I hate to be "that guy" but Marty Ice wasn't exactly blowing me away this preseason. The passes looked short and inaccurate and there was really no sizzle to his game at all. I know it's great fun to talk about how crappy Schaub is, I think the reality is that if Leinart can even play close to what Schaub gave us we will be extremely fortunate.

Texn4life
11-17-2011, 12:42 AM
I don't get how anybody could come to any sort of conclusion about how much more talented Matt Leinart is than Sage Rosenfels or whomever. I hate to be "that guy" but Marty Ice wasn't exactly blowing me away this preseason. The passes looked short and inaccurate and there was really no sizzle to his game at all. I know it's great fun to talk about how crappy Schaub is, I think the reality is that if Leinart can even play close to what Schaub gave us we will be extremely fortunate.


True, but you also have to look at who he was throwing the ball to. With Andre coming back then the only guys who were in the game while Leinart was were Jacoby, and I think Casey may have been in for some plays with him but that was it. It'll be a much different cast for him to work with on the field now. We're all just kind of estimating what we "think" we'll see based on his skill set. It's one reason have haven't even commented on his pre-season. He had to play in a dumbed down offense with a lot of young guys with only a few weeks of experience in this system, and banged up 2nd team offensive line.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 12:43 AM
I don't get how anybody could come to any sort of conclusion about how much more talented Matt Leinart is than Sage Rosenfels or whomever. I hate to be "that guy" but Marty Ice wasn't exactly blowing me away this preseason. The passes looked short and inaccurate and there was really no sizzle to his game at all. I know it's great fun to talk about how crappy Schaub is, I think the reality is that if Leinart can even play close to what Schaub gave us we will be extremely fortunate.

You should have plenty of examples, can you show me a few?

Or you can go to the gamebook and point to a play, and I can take screen shots of that play to see if your statement is true.

HJam72
11-17-2011, 01:44 AM
I don't get how anybody could come to any sort of conclusion about how much more talented Matt Leinart is than Sage Rosenfels or whomever. I hate to be "that guy" but Marty Ice wasn't exactly blowing me away this preseason. The passes looked short and inaccurate and there was really no sizzle to his game at all. I know it's great fun to talk about how crappy Schaub is, I think the reality is that if Leinart can even play close to what Schaub gave us we will be extremely fortunate.

Schaub sucks! :splits:

Start Leinart! :fans:

In Leinart, we must. :cool:

Too much Corona!

Corrosion
11-17-2011, 03:37 AM
Ball handling and play-action fake, as asked by at least one poster that I can remember.

In starked contrast to Gabbert who is simply terrible at it, Leinart performed theses tasks well enough that it fooled me on quite a few occasions.

If he can fool a TV viewer, the chance is good that he can fool a few players on the field that has to sort through the mass of humanity on the line.

This is one of my big concerns as so much of the passing offense is thru PA.

I didnt think he (Leinart) was very good at concealing the ball ..... Then again , Schaub isnt great at it either. I think they are both about average there.


I almost hate to say it , but Ive never seen a QB with better PA fakes than .... Peyton Manning. I hate that guy ..... only cause he dont play for my team.

AnthonyE
11-17-2011, 06:26 AM
3 plays in one vid here.

1. Another money-in-the-bank slant.
Leinart knew that the single deep safety Nolan would be occupied by the post route from the left.
One of the LBs followed the shallow slant/crossing route from right to left.
There was nobody left to help on 22 McMannis on the slant (also from right to left.)
This is reading the defense; it's not simply the case of a QB looking for an open receiver.

2. The corner route to Maehl.
Leinart saw the blitz coming; it means the nickle back McMannis has a lot of space to cover one on one against the slot receiver, not an easy task.

3. Again, Leinart saw the LB blitz coming.
With the RB picking up the blitz, his hot route was the TE Daniel, whom he went to immediately.

I'm pretty sure this one is Schaub.

ObsiWan
11-17-2011, 07:05 AM
I remember that game, and the biggest thing I remember is the Bears were undefeated going in. Leinart was actually shredding the Bears to start off with, and the announcers started proclaiming him one of the best rookie QB's they had ever seen. Then........ the bottom fell out with a couple of turnovers and the rest is history.

That was 10/16/2006; Monday Night Football. Leinhart went for 24 of 42 for 232 yds, 2 TDs - one to Boldin the other to B.Johnson (yep, the same B. Johnson we picked up at the end of camp this year), and no picks. He had the Cards up 20-0 on the Bears at one point and 20-3 at halftime. Eggerin James could only muster 56 yds on 26 carries so Leinhart and the passing game was the only thing that was working against the then-undefeated Bears.

Two fumbles and two returns for TDs cost the Cards that game and led to the infamous "The Bears are who we thought they were" tirade by Denny Green (classic :D).

Game summary (http://http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=261016022)

Play-by-play (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=261016022&period=0)

Scouts, Inc take:
Arizona, again, found a way to lose. Leinart was outstanding and in total control, and the Cardinals' defense totally dominated the Bears. After the amazing Chicago comeback, Leinart showed excellent leadership, leading the Cardinals down the field to set up the potential winning field goal that Neil Rackers missed for the second consecutive week.

I think Leinhart lost his job in AZ when Denny Green was fired. Leinhart was Green's pick, not Whisenhut's. Whisenhut is way to much of a Pittsburgh type to click with a Cali boy like Leinhart. Leinhart would have had to play lights out to be retained by Whisenhut. This is just my opinion, but I'm sure we've all seen personality clashes result in some strange decisions before.

TimeKiller
11-17-2011, 07:40 AM
1. Where the hell do you get or keep all this video on games from 2006?

2. Will you burn me a copy of Texans games this year? I'll pay you!!!

3. What's funny to me about Leinart is this: Schaub lacks in arm strength, in foot speed, is not always the most accurate and what is he? A top 10 Qb. It's because he's smart, makes correct reads and doesn't hesitate on decisions. What are people saying about Leinart? Better arm strength, better mobility.....what we're going to find out is whether or not he can MENTALLY play the position. Because, after all, that's what matters. Schaub is proof.

4. I believe that as long as the offense doesn't crumble around him, Leinart can do what is necessary to win. 15-20 throws, 60% completions and no turnovers. The rest of the team will pick up whatever slack Schaub left behind.

TejasTom
11-17-2011, 07:46 AM
We need to advise the NFL to retain all those cheerleaders shots in their game tapes, LOL!

Or just make a separate cheerleader game film so we don't have to fast forward through the football plays.

PS - Man, you got great quality videos there!

Those are great, do you think redwhiteANDblue can film the home games next preseason? Ch 13 coverage sucks!


...But I don't see anything wrong with the QB's play, JMO.

I don't either. It was TC but, this is against the players that are now the #1 ranked defense.

Dex.. you are a model of optimism.

I with Dex!

Yes, but can he 'copter?

Considering his time the hot tub, I think he does a flying horizontal one-and-a-half somersaults, pike with a twist to land on his feet.


...I hate to be "that guy" but Marty Ice wasn't exactly blowing me away this preseason. The passes looked short and inaccurate and there was really no sizzle to his game at all...

Wait, which Matt are you talking about here?

_____________

Leinart or Lionheart as some callers on the radio show are calling him, should be fine. How are defenses going the stack the box and double 'Dre?

If they do someone is wide open, like they have been in several situations this year without "the best player to put on a helmet in the world"* on the field?



*Arian Foster quote.

Texan_Bill
11-17-2011, 08:06 AM
Leinart or Lionheart as some callers on the radio show are calling him, should be fine.

Same folks that used to call Gerry Hunsicker - "Jerry Hunsinger"


:facepalm: Brakos!

thunderkyss
11-17-2011, 08:41 AM
I don't get how anybody could come to any sort of conclusion about how much more talented Matt Leinart is than Sage Rosenfels or whomever. I hate to be "that guy" but Marty Ice wasn't exactly blowing me away this preseason. The passes looked short and inaccurate and there was really no sizzle to his game at all. I know it's great fun to talk about how crappy Schaub is, I think the reality is that if Leinart can even play close to what Schaub gave us we will be extremely fortunate.

I agree. The chances of Lienart lighting it up & taking us to the promised land is slim to none.

Still, fun to speculate.

The truth is we know Lienart doesn't need to be an All-Pro to get us to the play-offs. Then, anything can happen.

Hervoyel
11-17-2011, 09:55 AM
I do know that Schaub has never executed a back shoulder fade to Dre in the endzone.
Leinart is far more talented than Rosenfels, slightly more talented than Schaub, yet
you guys are biting fingernails and sweating bullets. Dude takes over a team that
is stacked.all over the offensive side, and has one of the best defenses in the
league.

As long as he plays EXACTLY LIKE SAGE, this team won't miss a beat. He's GUARANTEED
to be better than Sage, and may even give Schaub a run for his money.

Peace.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/Hervoyel/IDontOftenDexmanC.jpg

76Texan
11-17-2011, 10:26 AM
This is one of my big concerns as so much of the passing offense is thru PA.

I didnt think he (Leinart) was very good at concealing the ball ..... Then again , Schaub isnt great at it either. I think they are both about average there.


I almost hate to say it , but Ive never seen a QB with better PA fakes than .... Peyton Manning. I hate that guy ..... only cause he dont play for my team.

Why I said "well ENOUGH", not great!
But our PA has the advantage of the FB as the "lead blocker" helping to sell the fake.
Also, I think Leinart's footwork/overall movement after the hand-off (or faked hand-off) is pretty good.
That part is also important.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 10:27 AM
I'm pretty sure this one is Schaub.

LOL, when did Schauby sneak in there!
Good catch, man!

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 10:37 AM
Is this everyone's way of dealing with Schaub's loss? Is pretending that Leinart will be as good or better than him? Wow you guys are in denial. Leinart may be able to manage the game. He will NOT be better than Schaub. There will not be a QB controversy. Schaub was only the fourth QB in history to throw for 9,000 yards over 2 years. He has thrown 2.5 TDs to 1 INT this year. Expecting this kind of production from Leinart is ridiculous. To think there will be no drop off is ridiculous. It's like when we expect undrafted players to make an impact on our team their rookie season. We are putting ridiculous expectations on this guy. Lets be happy if we go 3-3. Stop setting up for disappointment. Nobody seems to realize we went 7-3 with a passing game. Expecting to go 4-2 without one to finish the season is a very high expectation. I appreciate the insight on his play and the evaluation. But we are being huge homers here. Lets be realistic please.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 10:39 AM
1. Where the hell do you get or keep all this video on games from 2006?

2. Will you burn me a copy of Texans games this year? I'll pay you!!!

3. What's funny to me about Leinart is this: Schaub lacks in arm strength, in foot speed, is not always the most accurate and what is he? A top 10 Qb. It's because he's smart, makes correct reads and doesn't hesitate on decisions. What are people saying about Leinart? Better arm strength, better mobility.....what we're going to find out is whether or not he can MENTALLY play the position. Because, after all, that's what matters. Schaub is proof.

4. I believe that as long as the offense doesn't crumble around him, Leinart can do what is necessary to win. 15-20 throws, 60% completions and no turnovers. The rest of the team will pick up whatever slack Schaub left behind.

I got the games from various sources over the years, but mostly tenyard.
I capture the Texans game with a tuner card (connected to the PC).
You can buy it at most electronics store like Fry's.
It comes with a software that also allows you to record TV programs.
(I'll PM you later!)

Yeah, most of us think that Leinart just needs to play within himself, and that will be good enough as the rest of the team can take care of business.

Side note - In another thread I had mentioned Schaub throwing some 47 yards from the LOS (an improvement of 3-4 yards from years past due to improvement in his throwing mechanics and footwork.)
I haven't seen Leinart throw any pass deeper than that.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 10:48 AM
Is this everyone's way of dealing with Schaub's loss? Is pretending that Leinart will be as good or better than him? Wow you guys are in denial. Leinart may be able to manage the game. He will NOT be better than Schaub. There will not be a QB controversy. Schaub was only the fourth QB in history to throw for 9,000 yards over 2 years. He has thrown 2.5 TDs to 1 INT this year. Expecting this kind of production from Leinart is ridiculous. To think there will be no drop off is ridiculous. It's like when we expect undrafted players to make an impact on our team their rookie season. We are putting ridiculous expectations on this guy. Lets be happy if we go 3-3. Stop setting up for disappointment. Nobody seems to realize we went 7-3 with a passing game. Expecting to go 4-2 without one to finish the season is a very high expectation. I appreciate the insight on his play and the evaluation. But we are being huge homers here. Lets be realistic please.

LOL, the controversy thread is down the hall, to your left. j/k

The only thing I concluded is that Leinart looks to be at least a game manager.
Whether he can put it together (to be good-very good) when the games count is still up in the air (IMO).
I don't set up any expectation for myself.
I'm prepared for us to get into the play-offs with a non-stellar record.
That's all I want for now until we can see more in the next few games.

I can't help if others are homies!

But honestly, I think Leinart can put up good productions because we haven't had Schaub throwing as much as last year, and AJ will be coming back.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 11:05 AM
Or just make a separate cheerleader game film so we don't have to fast forward through the football plays.

Those are great, do you think redwhiteANDblue can film the home games next preseason? Ch 13 coverage sucks!

I don't either. It was TC but, this is against the players that are now the #1 ranked defense.
_____________

Leinart or Lionheart as some callers on the radio show are calling him, should be fine. How are defenses going the stack the box and double 'Dre?

If they do someone is wide open, like they have been in several situations this year without "the best player to put on a helmet in the world"* on the field?

*Arian Foster quote.

We can get RWnB to just film the cheerleaders all day long! :photos:
:cow:

But seriously, those vids are great.
They show us a little about what the team were working on at TC.

Maybe next year RWnB can do it from up in the stand for a better overall view.

Rey
11-17-2011, 11:12 AM
Why I said "well ENOUGH", not great!
But our PA has the advantage of the FB as the "lead blocker" helping to sell the fake.
Also, I think Leinart's footwork/overall movement after the hand-off (or faked hand-off) is pretty good.
That part is also important.

The play fake is in the design of the plays and the O-line and doesn't really depend on a great sell by the QB.

Oline has to seel the play as if it's a run and the play design is set up so that the pass and run plays look the same from the WR'S and TE's, to the RB's and O-line...

The first couple seconds of the play should feel the same.

That's why guys are constantly coming wide the hell open...

b0ng
11-17-2011, 11:28 AM
You should have plenty of examples, can you show me a few?

Or you can go to the gamebook and point to a play, and I can take screen shots of that play to see if your statement is true.

I would say that a lot of the stuff he showed in the Saints game is what gave me this general opinion. He only tried a few deep throws (Which were a little off) and the short stuff wasn't really that impressive to me. He did look better against the 9'ers, and respectable enough vs the Vikings, but that Saints game bugged me about him.

I will say that I feel way better about Leinart being here as the next backup than Rex Grossman or Dan Orlovsky.

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 11:39 AM
LOL, the controversy thread is down the hall, to your left. j/k

The only thing I concluded is that Leinart looks to be at least a game manager.
Whether he can put it together (to be good-very good) when the games count is still up in the air (IMO).
I don't set up any expectation for myself.
I'm prepared for us to get into the play-offs with a non-stellar record.
That's all I want for now until we can see more in the next few games.

I can't help if others are homies!

But honestly, I think Leinart can put up good productions because we haven't had Schaub throwing as much as last year, and AJ will be coming back.

My post isn't all directed towards you. And I'm not trying to start something, just my opinion. But you stated after most of your evaluation that Leinart was as good as or better than Schaub in each category. I do not see much criticism at all regarding your evaluation. From reading your posts, its hard not to become a homer.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/16137577/tenpoint-stance-schaubs-foot-forecast-remains-cloudy
One last thing on the Texans. Anyone who believes Matt Leinart will lead the Texans to a Super Bowl post-Schaub hasn't seen him play. He is easily one of the worst quarterbacks I've seen in the last three years or so in the NFL. He is painfully inaccurate, has no pocket presence, very little arm strength and isn't a leader. Other than that, he'll be just fine.

That's my opinion and it seems to vary greatly with yours and most people on this board. Hopefully I'm proven wrong.

TexCanada
11-17-2011, 11:39 AM
Is this everyone's way of dealing with Schaub's loss? Is pretending that Leinart will be as good or better than him? Wow you guys are in denial. Leinart may be able to manage the game. He will NOT be better than Schaub. There will not be a QB controversy. Schaub was only the fourth QB in history to throw for 9,000 yards over 2 years. He has thrown 2.5 TDs to 1 INT this year. Expecting this kind of production from Leinart is ridiculous. To think there will be no drop off is ridiculous. It's like when we expect undrafted players to make an impact on our team their rookie season. We are putting ridiculous expectations on this guy. Lets be happy if we go 3-3. Stop setting up for disappointment. Nobody seems to realize we went 7-3 with a passing game. Expecting to go 4-2 without one to finish the season is a very high expectation. I appreciate the insight on his play and the evaluation. But we are being huge homers here. Lets be realistic please.

4-2 sounds ridiculous....until you look at the remaining schedule. 4-2 is very reasonable IF Matt2 can hit an open receiver and avoid throwing 2 or more picks a game. If he goes out there and is completely awful, then yes, 2-4 is probably more likely.

Schaub's stats in the last 4 wins:

Titans: 18/23, 296 yards, 2TD
Jags: 16/30, 225, 1TD
Browns: 14/23, 119, 0TD, 1 Int
TB: 11/15, 242, 2TD

Solid, yes, but not spectacular. I think its safe to assume that Matt2 will mix in a few more mistakes then Matt1, but considering all of those wins were blowout wins, it is not unreasonable to think that we can still win a few close games with Matt2 running the show.

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 11:48 AM
4-2 sounds ridiculous....until you look at the remaining schedule. 4-2 is very reasonable IF Matt2 can hit an open receiver and avoid throwing 2 or more picks a game. If he goes out there and is completely awful, then yes, 2-4 is probably more likely.

Schaub's stats in the last 4 wins:

Titans: 18/23, 296 yards, 2TD
Jags: 16/30, 225, 1TD
Browns: 14/23, 119, 0TD, 1 Int
TB: 11/15, 242, 2TD

Solid, yes, but not spectacular. I think its safe to assume that Matt2 will mix in a few more mistakes then Matt1, but considering all of those wins were blowout wins, it is not unreasonable to think that we can still win a few close games with Matt2 running the show.

I know, but without the threat of a passing game its going to make it a lot harder to run the ball. We will not be able to run the ball 65% of the time (like we have over the past 4 weeks) and be successful when they stack 8 guys in the box. And when we throw the ball, they will bring pressure to force Matt2 to make mistakes. The reason Matt1 was a game manager is because the defense respected him. That's not the case with Matt2. Which is why I believe he needs to be more than a game manager to be successful and why he will be unsuccessful.

In years past we have used the running game to open up the pass game. Hasn't anyone else noticed we've flip flopped that philosophy this year? We come out passing then run late. If we can't establish the passing game, there will be no run game. Or we have to establish the running game to open the passing game, which I don't think will work. Because the defense is expecting it. But again, we will see.

infantrycak
11-17-2011, 12:00 PM
The play fake is in the design of the plays and the O-line and doesn't really depend on a great sell by the QB.

Oline has to seel the play as if it's a run and the play design is set up so that the pass and run plays look the same from the WR'S and TE's, to the RB's and O-line...

The first couple seconds of the play should feel the same.

That's why guys are constantly coming wide the hell open...

Wow that is so wrong. Lots of teams, basically all of them, run play fakes and don't end up with receivers coming wide the hell open. That is a combination of Kubiak's play design and Schaub's excellence, as in at the top of the league, play fake. Contrast Carr for instance who had a miserable play fake. That 1 or more seconds of extra recognition time because the fake is so bad is extremely important to the success of the play.

Rey
11-17-2011, 12:01 PM
The reason Matt1 was a game manager is because the defense respected him.

Matt Schaub is a good QB.

That said, I don't think a defense can stack the box to stop the running game, bite on play action and show respect to Schaub's throwing ability. At least not all on the same play.

I don't even know where this game manager stuff comes from. Matt Schaub made some plays. Hell, just recently has he been able to go into captain mode and just steer. In my opinion Shammy is above a game manager.

Rey
11-17-2011, 12:04 PM
Wow that is so wrong. Lots of teams, basically all of them, run play fakes and don't end up with receivers coming wide the hell open. That is a combination of Kubiak's play design and Schaub's excellent as in at the top of the league play fake.

Cak, you are incorrect and don't know what you are talking about.

And I am talking abou the Texans offense...Not offenses around the NFL...

The plays, routes and blocking are designed to look a like. The QB being houdinini with the ball has a whole lot less to do with a good PA vs. the O-lineman firing out as if it is a run and making the LB's and D-lineman react as if it were a run...

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 12:05 PM
Matt Schaub is a good QB.

That said, I don't think a defense can stack the box to stop the running game, bite on play action and show respect to Schaub's throwing ability. At least not all on the same play.

I don't even know where this game manager stuff comes from. Matt Schaub made some plays. Hell, just recently has he been able to go into captain mode and just steer. In my opinion Shammy is above a game manager.

If you read my previous posts in the last page of this thread, I definitely agree he's a top 10 QB. And that he can't be replaced. I'm talking to the people who believe we won't miss a beat because Schaub was just a "game manager" and that's all we need. And to the people talking about Leinart coming out and possibly taking Schaub's job.

People are saying the Leinart only has to be a game manager. I believe that couldn't be farther from the truth.

And the reason our play fakes and bootlegs are so successful are because of Schaub. There is nobody better in the NFL at the fake and throwing on the run in my opinion. Leinart will not be able to replicate that, let alone any other QB in the NFL.

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 12:09 PM
And as far as the play fakes...it's a little of both the OL and the QB. But the QB has to do their job as well. If the OL makes it look like a run but the QB doesn't even fake it, then it's obviously a pass play. So the fake does have to be somewhat effective. The play-action is a team effort, not on just the OL or on the QB

HJam72
11-17-2011, 12:10 PM
Wow that is so wrong. Lots of teams, basically all of them, run play fakes and don't end up with receivers coming wide the hell open. That is a combination of Kubiak's play design and Schaub's excellence, as in at the top of the league, play fake. Contrast Carr for instance who had a miserable play fake. That 1 or more seconds of extra recognition time because the fake is so bad is extremely important to the success of the play.

Heck, he probly faked it to McKinney.

infantrycak
11-17-2011, 12:10 PM
Cak, you are incorrect and don't know what you are talking about.

And I am talking abou the Texans offense...Not offenses around the NFL...

The plays, routes and blocking are designed to look a like. The QB being houdinini with the ball has a whole lot less to do with a good PA vs. the O-lineman firing out as if it is a run and making the LB's and D-lineman react as if it were a run...

BS and it isn't Texans unique. Every team schemes for the plays to look the same. No f@#king duh. That is the point of the play. The ability of the QB to sell it well makes a difference. But I guess carry on with your delusion any QB can run it equally as well.

Rey
11-17-2011, 12:13 PM
And as far as the play fakes...it's a little of both the OL and the QB. But the QB has to do their job as well. If the OL makes it look like a run but the QB doesn't even fake it, then it's obviously a pass play. So the fake does have to be somewhat effective. The play-action is a team effort, not on just the OL or on the QB

My point is that the QB doesn't have to be great at hiding the ball because the LB's and D-line can't see the ball a lot of times and key off of where and how bodies are moving.

Sure the QB needs to look like he's handing it off, but that is inherent in a playfake...


But the O-line and RB are the ones that really sell the Play action. The QB hiding the ball well or acting well is more like sprinkles than the actual ice cream.

bajabill42
11-17-2011, 12:17 PM
I divide Matt into two Parts......NOT Whisenhunt and Whisenhunt, and I throw away the Whisenhunt part as the Ravings of a petty small man. Matt wasn't good in HS, he was GREAT......Matt wasn't good at USC, he was GREAT......eg. in 2004 he and AARON RODGERS were 1st team All-PAC10...though Matt was PAC10 MVP, repeating for a 2nd year(Only other QB to do that was JOHN ELWAY....and soon to be ANDREW LUCK). Denny Green picked him over to start over FHOF KURT WARNER as a rookie.

I've heard 2 criticisms of Matt that make some sense.......not a weak arm(Sample said 2 things Surprised him in coming from the Jets to the Cards....how good DRC was, and THE STRENGTH OF MATT'S ARM). Mayock said the ONLY reason Matt wasn't a force in the NFL was priorities(God, Family and Football) weren't right. Someone else(Lombardi?) said Matt waited for his receivers to come OPEN before delivering. The first is likely the case and the second may have been, his rookie year......but, I hear and suspect both have been corrected.

I do not expect Matt to be a decent replacement for Schaub, I do not expect him to be good.......if Kubiak has undone the Whisenhunt years psychologically and Matt hasn't let his skills go stale.....I expect Matt to be GREAT......and nothing less than a SuperBowl appearance will do......MATT and AARON back at it........I'll take HOUSTON and MATT......Fight ON!!!

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 12:18 PM
My point is that the QB doesn't have to be great at hiding the ball because the LB's and D-line can't see the ball a lot of times and key off of where and how bodies are moving.

Sure the QB needs to look like he's handing it off, but that is inherent in a playfake...


But the O-line and RB are the ones that really sell the Play action. The QB hiding the ball well or acting well is more like sprinkles than the actual ice cream.

Again I agree to a point. I still feel like it is a team effort. Everyone has to do their jobs. It may be true that the OL and the RB are the most important, but that doesn't mean the QB's job on selling the play fake is unimportant. And you need every piece for it to be executed properly.

TejasTom
11-17-2011, 12:19 PM
I know, but without the threat of a passing game its going to make it a lot harder to run the ball. We will not be able to run the ball 65% of the time (like we have over the past 4 weeks) and be successful when they stack 8 guys in the box...

They have been stacking the box and with 80 on the field they would respect the pass if the water boy was in at quarterback.

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 12:20 PM
I divide Matt into two Parts......NOT Whisenhunt and Whisenhunt, and I throw away the Whisenhunt part as the Ravings of a petty small man. Matt wasn't good in HS, he was GREAT......Matt wasn't good at USC, he was GREAT......eg. in 2004 he and AARON RODGERS were 1st team All-PAC10...though Matt was PAC10 MVP, repeating for a 2nd year(Only other QB to do that was JOHN ELWAY....and soon to be ANDREW LUCK). Denny Green picked him over to start over FHOF KURT WARNER as a rookie.

I've heard 2 criticisms of Matt that make some sense.......not a weak arm(Sample said 2 things Surprised him in coming from the Jets to the Cards....how good DRC was, and THE STRENGTH OF MATT'S ARM). Mayock said the ONLY reason Matt wasn't a force in the NFL was priorities(God, Family and Football) weren't right. Someone else(Lombardi?) said Matt waited for his receivers to come OPEN before delivering. The first is likely the case and the second may have been, his rookie year......but, I hear and suspect both have been corrected.

I do not expect Matt to be a decent replacement for Schaub, I do not expect him to be good.......if Kubiak has undone the Whisenhunt years psychologically and Matt hasn't let his skills go stale.....I expect Matt to be GREAT......and nothing less than a SuperBowl appearance will do......MATT and AARON back at it........I'll take HOUSTON and MATT......Fight ON!!!

This is what all of my posts have been directed at. People like this. HAHAHA. I really do wish I could still be drinking that kool aid props to you though!

HJam72
11-17-2011, 12:22 PM
I divide Matt into two Parts......NOT Whisenhunt and Whisenhunt, and I throw away the Whisenhunt part as the Ravings of a petty small man. Matt wasn't good in HS, he was GREAT......Matt wasn't good at USC, he was GREAT......eg. in 2004 he and AARON RODGERS were 1st team All-PAC10...though Matt was PAC10 MVP, repeating for a 2nd year(Only other QB to do that was JOHN ELWAY....and soon to be ANDREW LUCK). Denny Green picked him over to start over FHOF KURT WARNER as a rookie.

I've heard 2 criticisms of Matt that make some sense.......not a weak arm(Sample said 2 things Surprised him in coming from the Jets to the Cards....how good DRC was, and THE STRENGTH OF MATT'S ARM). Mayock said the ONLY reason Matt wasn't a force in the NFL was priorities(God, Family and Football) weren't right. Someone else(Lombardi?) said Matt waited for his receivers to come OPEN before delivering. The first is likely the case and the second may have been, his rookie year......but, I hear and suspect both have been corrected.

I do not expect Matt to be a decent replacement for Schaub, I do not expect him to be good.......if Kubiak has undone the Whisenhunt years psychologically and Matt hasn't let his skills go stale.....I expect Matt to be GREAT......and nothing less than a SuperBowl appearance will do......MATT and AARON back at it........I'll take HOUSTON and MATT......Fight ON!!!

At this rate, the Texans are going to win the Pro-Bowl too. :fans:

b0ng
11-17-2011, 12:22 PM
My point is that the QB doesn't have to be great at hiding the ball because the LB's and D-line can't see the ball a lot of times and key off of where and how bodies are moving.

Sure the QB needs to look like he's handing it off, but that is inherent in a playfake...


But the O-line and RB are the ones that really sell the Play action. The QB hiding the ball well or acting well is more like sprinkles than the actual ice cream.

No the QB does have to be good at hiding the ball and selling the fake because LB's and DB's can see what is going on in the backfield around and through the O-line and they can tell when a QB is already looking downfield to throw or is holding the ball up to throw too early after the supposed fake.

Having a QB who can sell the fake is just as important, if not moreso, than what the RB does and what the O-line does in a PA situation.

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 12:22 PM
They have been stacking the box and with 80 on the field they would respect the pass if the water boy was in at quarterback.

Would you respect the pass against the Cardinals with Max Hall at QB and Larry Fitzgerald at WR?

Rey
11-17-2011, 12:22 PM
BS and it isn't Texans unique. Every team schemes for the plays to look the same. No f@#king duh. That is the point of the play. The ability of the QB to sell it well makes a difference. But I guess carry on with your delusion any QB can run it equally as well.

No, cak...Every team does not scheme for plays to look the same.

Once again, you don't know what you are talking about.

The Texans major PA play is the Naked bootleg where they get the defense flowing one direction and boot leg out the other way...It's called a naked bootleg because the O-line doesn't block the DE really....

Instead they rely on selling the run and getting him to chase down the line. Sometimes a TE will fake like he is run blocking him to slow him down some and then peel off into a route.

Every team does not utilize playaction and have guys come wide the hell open to the degree that we do. Yeah right.

Most of Matt's biggest passing plays have come because someone was left wide the hell open because of the play design. Not because he did a great job at selling the play fake...Are you serious?

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 12:23 PM
No the QB does have to be good at hiding the ball and selling the fake because LB's and DB's can see what is going on in the backfield around and through the O-line and they can tell when a QB is already looking downfield to throw or is holding the ball up to throw too early after the supposed fake.

Having a QB who can sell the fake is just as important, if not moreso, than what the RB does and what the O-line does in a PA situation.

Exactly. And the defensive lineman who get through the line will see where the ball is, and if they don't bite there will be no option for a bootleg and could very easily result in a sack.

Rey
11-17-2011, 12:26 PM
No the QB does have to be good at hiding the ball and selling the fake because LB's and DB's can see what is going on in the backfield around and through the O-line and they can tell when a QB is already looking downfield to throw or is holding the ball up to throw too early after the supposed fake.

Having a QB who can sell the fake is just as important, if not moreso, than what the RB does and what the O-line does in a PA situation.

I disagree whole heartedly.

Our biggest plays come when we play fake off of the stretch. We get the defense flowing.

You don't know what you are talking about either because when the QB goes to hand the ball off DB's and LB's cannot see his eyes becaue his head is turned as he goes back to fake the handoff.

Look, I'm not saying that he can just go back there and bull**** and not even act like he is handing the ball off, but in this offense the playfake is in the design of the plays.

What makes it even more successful is the actual threat that he could hand it off to a great running attack.

And you are also wrong about LB's and D-lineman being able to see the ball...Sure they can see it at times, but they cannot just "look through the line" and see the ball...

Yeah right.

I understand you guys love Schaub, but to say that he is even equally as important in getting D-lineman, and LB's to bite on the run is incorrect.

TexCanada
11-17-2011, 12:28 PM
People are saying the Leinart only has to be a game manager. I believe that couldn't be farther from the truth.


Obviously the guy is going to have to make some reads, get the ball out on time, and make a few plays. We will not, however, be expecting him to go out there and be dodging would-be tacklers and spinning balls into tight spots. If they stack the box then we likely have AJ and/or OD in single coverage. Pick the open one and get the ball to him. We have enough playmakers that we don't NEED to have our QB making great plays all game.

Vinny
11-17-2011, 12:35 PM
Exactly. And the defensive lineman who get through the line will see where the ball is, and if they don't bite there will be no option for a bootleg and could very easily result in a sack.
Leinart is capable of throwing the ball away. One easy-peasy thing about the boot is that you are already outside the tackle box most of the time, so all you have to do is get it (the throwaway) past the los if you get instant pressure or you have tight coverage.

b0ng
11-17-2011, 12:38 PM
I disagree whole heartedly.

Our biggest plays come when we play fake off of the stretch. We get the defense flowing.

You don't know what you are talking about either because when the QB goes to hand the ball off DB's and LB's cannot see his eyes becaue his head is turned as he goes back to fake the handoff.

Look, I'm not saying that he can just go back there and bull**** and not even act like he is handing the ball off, but in this offense the playfake is in the design of the plays.

What makes it even more successful is the actual threat that he could hand it off to a great running attack.

And you are also wrong about LB's and D-lineman being able to see the ball...Sure they can see it at times, but they cannot just "look through the line" and see the ball...

Yeah right.

I understand you guys love Schaub, but to say that he is even equally as important in getting D-lineman, and LB's to bite on the run is incorrect.

No you really don't understand what you are talking about because the defense will key off of what the QB is doing first and foremost since he is the guy with the ball. These other things are somewhat important (Which you seem to think that in a play action situation ONLY the line play or what the RB does matters, which is flat out wrong, wrong wrong), but if the QB is going to keep the ball he has to fool the DL, and the LB's because they will immediately drop trying to stop the run action and go for the QB if they even think that he has the ball, and they will more than likely have a free shot on him since nobody will be blocking. The DB's will also know whats going on and will keep their coverages tight on the receiving threats if they think it's the QB and not the RB who has the ball.

The QB can easily alert the defensive players that it was a fake by not attempting to hide the ball after he pulls it back, by turning and squaring up like he's going to throw too early, or even just by how he turns his body after the "hand-off". All of these things can bust up a PA (Doesn't matter if it's a stretch, or naked boot, or any of that stuff) and if the QB is bad at selling it, you're going to see the play get busted more often.

Look, I know it hurts your feelings when somebody says that Schaub as good (Which that would be the first time *I* have even mentioned Schaub in talking about play-action fakes in this thread) and you want to tear him down and make him "mediocre" in your mind, but you're using a lot of bad reasoning and faulty logic trying to persuade people into thinking that the QB has almost no bearing at all on how successful his offense runs the playaction. And with this post, I am saying you are flat out wrong. Has nothing to do with me liking or disliking Schaub as a QB, you are just straight up wrong and are blabbering at the mouth. The QB has quite a bit of responsibility in "selling" the hand-off to the opposing defense, as much or even moreso than the offensive line and running back.

TexanFan881
11-17-2011, 12:40 PM
Leinart is capable of throwing the ball away. One easy-peasy thing about the boot is that you are already outside the tackle box most of the time, so all you have to do is get it (the throwaway) past the los if you get instant pressure or you have tight coverage.

I get that...but at the same time aren't we talking about a successful play action pass? I would consider an incomplete pass unsuccessful...

Porky
11-17-2011, 12:46 PM
Schaub has one of the best play fakes in the league. This isn't a debatable point, so I don't understand the debate.

Yes, we use the naked bootleg, and yes all parts have to sell it properly...all do great at it. Yes, the oline fires off like a zone stretch, but if Rey or whomever thinks that Matt isn't a great play faker I don't know what the hell to say....because he is.

That's why teams that I am sure spent the last week studying that very play fall for it 75% of the time. And when they don't Matt usually has to throw it away.

Lastly, we don't always use PA with a naked boot. It's often just a 5 or 7 step drop. On those plays in particular, Matt S is great at selling the fake. Go look at film of Carr and Schaub and if you think they are even close to the same, then I don't know what to tell you. Cak is correct here.

Porky
11-17-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm happy to see all the sunshine pumpers shilling for HTM, but the truth is, TO THIS POINT, he stinks. He is David Carr all over again from holding the ball too long, to poor reads, to poor decision making to innaccuracy. These are his calling cards to this point. Speculating that suddenly the leopard changes his spots is all well and good but that and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee. Let's put it this way - if we were playing another team that had HTM as a backup and they suddenly lost their starter, this board would be going crazy with critism and people would be saying how easy it was going to be because he sucks.

Hell, I hope he is so good that he bests Aaron Rodgers in the Super Bowl. But the odds of him even being "good" are rather slim. I really think the best we can hope for is a Trent Dilfer type - ie just don't screw up and let the other pieces carry the heavy lifting. That's good enough for a 4-2 finish.

Rey
11-17-2011, 12:50 PM
No you really don't understand what you are talking about because the defense will key off of what the QB is doing first and foremost since he is the guy with the ball.

Stopped reading right here since you got this wrong I just figured the rest would be wrong too.

LB's tend to key off the backs primarily, O-line second, and QB's one they realize it's a pass...D-linemen RARELY key off the QB and mostly make decisions based off of what the O-line is doing...

If a d-lineman is able to look at the QB then he's firing out of his stance too high and is likely about to be drove back and put on his ass.

Do you remember in pre season against the Vikings where Ponder ran the wrong play and picked up like 10 yards or so??? Well, he ran the wrong direction but he still picked up decent yards because the whole defense flowed the direction that RB ran and the O-line was blocking.

Sorry, but I've played football at a high level and I've played under what I consider to be some damn good coaches. One of my former coaches works with the Texans, is on the sideline of every game, every practice and he has told me personally that the Texans offense is just a more pro style version of the offense that we ran. But he said the blocking schemes and play design are pretty much the same.

But you can go ahead and thinking you know what you are talking about. Really doesn't matter to me. I think I've explained myself well, so you can take it or leave it and keep thinking what you want to.

Rey
11-17-2011, 12:52 PM
but if Rey or whomever thinks that Matt isn't a great play faker I don't know what the hell to say....because he is.

Really, some of you need to read slowly or actually just flat out pay attention.

Please show me one post EVER where I commented on Schaubs Play faking level?

Show me where I said it was good or bad?

b0ng
11-17-2011, 01:13 PM
Stopped reading right here since you got this wrong I just figured the rest would be wrong too.

LB's tend to key off the backs primarily, O-line second, and QB's one they realize it's a pass...D-linemen RARELY key off the QB and mostly make decisions based off of what the O-line is doing...



Stopped reading right here because you literally do not know what you are talking about and I figured the rest of your post would be just as full of garbage (I'm sure it was).

D-line rarely keying off the QB? Okay, you can just stop right there, or at least you should've. I guess in Rey's mystery football league nobody watches the QB except for the DB's to make sure it's not a play-fake or anything, especially when playing a team like the Texans who make a lot of their offensive money on the play-action.

Keep going this is fun.

Rey
11-17-2011, 01:16 PM
D-line rarely keying off the QB? Okay, you can just stop right there, or at least you should've.

All you're doing is giving confirmation that you don't have a clue.
D-linemen generally do not "key" off the QB. That doesn't even make sense.

That's just ignorance speaking on your behalf.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 01:35 PM
Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.

1. I have heard many commentators saying Matt Schaub does a good job selling the play fake in different games.

2. When I talked about Gabbert is simply terrible at it, there's a reason.
The QB is very important in selling the play fake.

3. To start off, you can go back and watched the first play against the Bucs when Schaub went yards to JJ.

Then you can watch the Jags game, 2nd quarter, around the 11:30 min mark.
You will see the difference bettween Schaub and Gabbert.
(there are other plays from Gabbert, but I got to run now.)

Look at how Schaub extended his arm pretending to put the ball into the RB's gut while Gabbert only had his arm cocking and half-heartedly failed at a faked hand-off. The LB saw this too clearly and dropped back. This in turn helped the deep safety.

On the other hand, Talib and the safety took a peek into the backfield and both froze when Schaub extended his arm and Foster faked an acceptance of the hand-off.

76Texan
11-17-2011, 01:36 PM
I would say that a lot of the stuff he showed in the Saints game is what gave me this general opinion. He only tried a few deep throws (Which were a little off) and the short stuff wasn't really that impressive to me. He did look better against the 9'ers, and respectable enough vs the Vikings, but that Saints game bugged me about him.

I will say that I feel way better about Leinart being here as the next backup than Rex Grossman or Dan Orlovsky.

Bong, I will come back to the Saints game some other time.

Rey
11-17-2011, 01:51 PM
Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.

1. I have heard many commentators saying Matt Schaub does a good job selling the play fake in different games.

2. When I talked about Gabbert is simply terrible at it, there's a reason.
The QB is very important in selling the play fake.

3. To start off, you can go back and watched the first play against the Bucs when Schaub went yards to JJ.

Then you can watch the Jags game, 2nd quarter, around the 11:30 min mark.
You will see the difference bettween Schaub and Gabbert.
(there are other plays from Gabbert, but I got to run now.)

Look at how Schaub extended his arm pretending to put the ball into the RB's gut while Gabbert only had his arm cocking and half-heartedly failed at a faked hand-off. The LB saw this too clearly and dropped back. This in turn helped the deep safety.

On the other hand, Talib and the safety took a peek into the backfield and both froze when Schaub extended his arm and Foster faked an acceptance of the hand-off.

Zone blocking scheme includes a lot of things. Everyone in the league does not run the Zone stretch as often as we do and everyone does not run bootlegs like we do. Those are staples of THIS particular offense.

Also, If Gabbert was doing a PA with our o-line and running game success I'm sure more people would bite or have a delayed reaction.


I don't care how good your QB is at selling the run. If a team has no fear of the O-line opening holes and no fear of a RB gashing them they will not react the same.

All week the Bucs probably had it drilled in their mind that they had to stop the run. (1) they weren't good at it (2) we run the ball very well. We just came off a huge week running the ball. Arian is a beast, the O-line blocks in this scheme really well. It was an excellent play call to start the game where we caught the Bucs thinking one way and did something different.

But you want to say that the way Matt Schaub "extended his arm" is the key to that play being successful? He showed the ball for the DB's to see...That is pretty regular.

redwhiteANDblue
11-17-2011, 03:04 PM
No problem for the vids guys just helping out the few people that wanted to see the texans training camp from home! Btw sorry for the bad camera angle, I'll try getting it higher up next time.

Also good analysis 76! Always love reading them.


I personally don't believe in Lienart but I'm a pessimist so my opinion is not that important. I'm mainly worried about the one throw to dorin dickerson which seemed like a fairly easy completion. He has to get those throws on target when he's on the move

thunderkyss
11-17-2011, 04:27 PM
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/Hervoyel/IDontOftenDexmanC.jpg

MSR



I'm stealing this one.

thunderkyss
11-17-2011, 04:35 PM
Is this everyone's way of dealing with Schaub's loss? Is pretending that Leinart will be as good or better than him? Wow you guys are in denial. Leinart may be able to manage the game. He will NOT be better than Schaub. There will not be a QB controversy. Schaub was only the fourth QB in history to throw for 9,000 yards over 2 years. He has thrown 2.5 TDs to 1 INT this year. Expecting this kind of production from Leinart is ridiculous. To think there will be no drop off is ridiculous. It's like when we expect undrafted players to make an impact on our team their rookie season. We are putting ridiculous expectations on this guy. Lets be happy if we go 3-3. Stop setting up for disappointment. Nobody seems to realize we went 7-3 with a passing game. Expecting to go 4-2 without one to finish the season is a very high expectation. I appreciate the insight on his play and the evaluation. But we are being huge homers here. Lets be realistic please.

Good post, I repped you for it.

But, I don't think anyone said anything about Matt producing on the same level Schaub has. Maybe as much as he has this year, but no one is expecting any QB to "have to" put up 4000 passing yards a season with the running game & defense we've got.

However, we are not stuck on what Matt Lienart had done in the past, just like we weren't stuck on what Matt Schaub had done before he came here..... other than his numbers are much better here, than when he started for Atlanta.

Sage Rosenfels' numbers were better here than they were when he was in Miami.

David Carr's numbers were better here with Kubiak than it was without.

It only stands to reason Matt Lienart's numbers will be better here than they were in Arizona.

DexmanC
11-17-2011, 05:13 PM
MSR



I'm stealing this one.

lol. You're gonna need it, that's for sure.

Peace.

thunderkyss
11-17-2011, 06:13 PM
Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.


He's absolutely correct. Lot's of teams run Play Action. We run Play Action & while it helps to suck the LBs to the LOS, it ain't nothing compared to the play action-Naked Boots we do where our WRs are WTF open.

Every now & then, you'll see Andre get WTF open on a WO boot, but I think he's talking about when Joel Dressen is so wide open he can run 40+ yards for a TD without anyone coming close to him.

You don't see "every" team doing that. That is sold by the PA+ the firing off the line of the OL.

DL can't key off the QB, like he said, their heads are too low. They can't even see the QB for the first second or two after the ball is snapped. If they were thinking run before the snap, it is confirmed when the OL attacks them. If they were thinking pass, the firing of the offensive line tells them they were wrong.

LBs are looking at the FB & RB, even before the snap, is he looking at a spot (run) or is he trying to identify the rusher (pass).... the play action is a clue, when the OL falls back, they fall into pass coverage. when they attack, they look for their lanes.

The play of the QB has something to do with it, but the OL is the biggest difference between what we do & what other teams do.

ObsiWan
11-17-2011, 06:28 PM
Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.

1. I have heard many commentators saying Matt Schaub does a good job selling the play fake in different games.

2. When I talked about Gabbert is simply terrible at it, there's a reason.
The QB is very important in selling the play fake.

3. To start off, you can go back and watched the first play against the Bucs when Schaub went yards to JJ.

Then you can watch the Jags game, 2nd quarter, around the 11:30 min mark.
You will see the difference bettween Schaub and Gabbert.
(there are other plays from Gabbert, but I got to run now.)

Look at how Schaub extended his arm pretending to put the ball into the RB's gut while Gabbert only had his arm cocking and half-heartedly failed at a faked hand-off. The LB saw this too clearly and dropped back. This in turn helped the deep safety.

On the other hand, Talib and the safety took a peek into the backfield and both froze when Schaub extended his arm and Foster faked an acceptance of the hand-off.

I don't get this debate. You cannot separate the effectiveness of the QB's fake from the defense's fear of your running game. If you have a weak running attack that the D thinks it can stop without putting 7-8 men in the box OR they know you run a pass-happy offense then they won't respect the fake. The safeties and LBs will think pass first and look to cover if they know your O is pass happy or they know their front 5-6 can handle your running attack without their help.

On the other hand, if you have a superior running game like we do or like SF does with Frank Gore, then the defense is going to be more worried about stopping the RB so the LBs and safeties are more likely to peek into the backfield before picking up their coverage assignments. That one-second hesitation from the safety either results in one-on-one coverage to a wideout or a TE having a step on said safety.

Another thing that I didn't see touched on is the RB's responsibility in carrying out his fake. If he goes into the line practically standing up, then that tells the defense pass right away. If he goes into the hole hard, then that sells the play-action completely; LBs and safeties bite which results in favorable situations for the offense.

Bottom line: The more effective your running attack is, the more the D has to respect it and the more effective a play fake from the QB will be. And the RB has to execute his fake convincingly too.

Texn4life
11-17-2011, 11:13 PM
I will say this..... I think most of the people debating here are right and wrong. Linebackers are taught to read their keys, and the initial key is the Offensive line. Depending on what coverage they are in they will then go to the RB/QB. If the lineman they're keying off of gives a run read (which is done by reading the first step of the lineman) then they will flow to wherever the defense dictates they be on that play lane wise and come up to support keeping their eyes on the ball, basically the QB. Once they see pass then they'll either drop in their zone, or get to their man. Its important to give a good run look all around. QB, Line, RB's, and WR's depending on the play or route they're running.

Play design does have a lot to do with getting guys open as well as the QB selling the fake properly. With us doing a lot of play action off of stretch runs, then a lot of those plays look exactly like runs initially up front. Matt does a good job of extending the ball out and selling it, but trust me in this offense it is not hard to do. Leinart is a vet and this is one thing he will do effectively in this offense. This is maybe the only thing I'm 100 percent sure of.

To pretty much sum it up I think most of you guys are right in what you're saying

TexCanada
11-17-2011, 11:22 PM
I will say this..... I think most of the people debating here are right and wrong.

This is like being the Switzerland of a message board.

Texn4life
11-17-2011, 11:26 PM
This is like being the Switzerland of a message board.

Haha, I can be diplomatic at times.

The Pencil Neck
11-18-2011, 12:10 AM
You cannot separate the effectiveness of the QB's fake from the defense's fear of your running game.

I disagree.

Schaub and this offense have been very, very good at selling the PA fake even when our running game was ****e.

A good chunk of that is our offensive line doing the zone thing and a part of that is Schaub's mad ball handling skillz... and also that Schaub completes his roll-out even on the regular run. One of my big gripes with HWWNBN was that on real running plays, he'd hand off... and then stop and follow along behind the running back like he was trying to recover a fumble instead of selling the roll-out. Schaub is good and consistent with his moves. Heck, he'll even go through the roll-out move when he pitches the ball out.

76Texan
11-18-2011, 01:36 AM
I will say this..... I think most of the people debating here are right and wrong. Linebackers are taught to read their keys, and the initial key is the Offensive line. Depending on what coverage they are in they will then go to the RB/QB. If the lineman they're keying off of gives a run read (which is done by reading the first step of the lineman) then they will flow to wherever the defense dictates they be on that play lane wise and come up to support keeping their eyes on the ball, basically the QB. Once they see pass then they'll either drop in their zone, or get to their man. Its important to give a good run look all around. QB, Line, RB's, and WR's depending on the play or route they're running.



Different defenses will have different keys for each LB, depending on the defensive front called against a certain offensive formation.

In Wade's 34, one of the base front is called the SAM & WILL TONTO against a standard pro set (2 RBs on each side and behind the QB).
Against this offensive formation, the Guards were uncovered so the MIKE and MO key on the Near Guard and the Near Back.
The SAM is head up on the TE and naturally keys on the TE to the near Back.
The WILL lines up as an 8-tech (about 2 yards outside the weak side OT); he has no O-lineman on him so he keys the BALL to the Near Back and the TRIANGLE (the QB, the Near Guard, and the Near Back).

Against the same pro set, a different defensive front called the SAM & WILL JET finds the LBs with different keys:
Both the MIKE & MO key through the Guard to the Near Back to the Ball.
Both the SAM & the WILL strickly key on the BALL.
In this defensive front, the front 7 are basically in the same position as the TONTO front, but they have different assignments (attacking different gaps).

76Texan
11-18-2011, 01:46 AM
I disagree.

Schaub and this offense have been very, very good at selling the PA fake even when our running game was ****e.

A good chunk of that is our offensive line doing the zone thing and a part of that is Schaub's mad ball handling skillz... and also that Schaub completes his roll-out even on the regular run. One of my big gripes with HWWNBN was that on real running plays, he'd hand off... and then stop and follow along behind the running back like he was trying to recover a fumble instead of selling the roll-out. Schaub is good and consistent with his moves. Heck, he'll even go through the roll-out move when he pitches the ball out.

^^^ This!
Selling is done continuously whether it was a run or a pass to make the PA game more effective.

76Texan
11-18-2011, 02:05 AM
My post isn't all directed towards you. And I'm not trying to start something, just my opinion. But you stated after most of your evaluation that Leinart was as good as or better than Schaub in each category. I do not see much criticism at all regarding your evaluation. From reading your posts, its hard not to become a homer.



No, I didn't give Leinart higher grade than Schaub on a few areas:
1. It looks like Schaub has a little more arm strength.
2. Leinart is not quite as accurate on the deep out from what I've seen so far.
(the sample size is not quite large enough to be sure of this though.)
3. We have yet to see Leinart perform well under pressure in games that count.
4. Schaub is still more consistent on the play fake (again, the sample size is still not large enough.)

The only thing that I give Leinart over Schaub is mobility.
And the quick slant, but not by much.
I can't compare their decision makings because, again, we haven't seen Leinart in a game that counts.
(I don't want to rely on memory to judge Leinart's rookie year.)

ObsiWan
11-18-2011, 02:24 AM
I disagree.

Schaub and this offense have been very, very good at selling the PA fake even when our running game was ****e.

A good chunk of that is our offensive line doing the zone thing and a part of that is Schaub's mad ball handling skillz... and also that Schaub completes his roll-out even on the regular run. One of my big gripes with HWWNBN was that on real running plays, he'd hand off... and then stop and follow along behind the running back like he was trying to recover a fumble instead of selling the roll-out. Schaub is good and consistent with his moves. Heck, he'll even go through the roll-out move when he pitches the ball out.

First, you have to go back three or more years to find a time when our running attack was suspect. This year and last year, Foster was and is feared. The year before, Slaton was somewhat feared - or at least respected - because of the 1000-yd season he had in 08. So you'd have to go back clear to '07 - Schaub's first year here as you well know - to find a time when "when our running game was ****e". And even in '07, Ron Dayne lumbered for nearly 773 yds rushing. That's enough of a threat to keep teams honest. All that to say, since Schaub's been here, the threat of a successful running play was there. Defenses had to respect it.

Second, I'm not trying to imply in any way, shape, form, or fashion that Schaub isn't good at the play fake. Hell, that's our bread & butter. Every talking head that actually watches us play has said we are the best in the NFL at play action. That starts with Schaub.

All I'm saying is the diversion works best when everyone, from Schaub to the O-line to the RB plays their individual roles so convincingly that our running plays look EXACTLY like our play action pass plays. That, IMHO, is the beauty of this offense. It costs the defense a half a second (or more) to figure out if Foster/Tate/Ward actually has the ball or if Schaub kept it. And that's enough for one of our guys to get open and for Schaub to find him.

I think our difference of opinion lies in the fact that I believe all players have to sell the fake and some of you think it's all about Schaub.
:tiphat:

76Texan
11-18-2011, 02:44 AM
Obsi, I'm not sure anybody here says that it's all about Schaub (or Leinart) in the PA game.

Personally, I always think that you need 11 players doing their job on each single play to make it successful.

Rey
11-18-2011, 06:55 AM
^^^ This!
Selling is done continuously whether it was a run or a pass to make the PA game more effective.

My point is that it starts with the oline and the actual threat of getting gashed.

How well the qb executes his fakes is secondary IMO.

I do not believe it's equal. Both are important and if one fails then the play could fail, bit if the oline does a poor job of selling, it doesn't matter how good the qb executes his fake. Conversely I don't believe that a great fake by the qb makes or breaks the play most times.

It starts with the oline and rb's. I would put jmo, but in this offense it's pretty much a fact.

Rey
11-18-2011, 07:01 AM
Personally, I always think that you need 11 players doing their job on each single play to make it successful.

Players make mistakes all the time. But if you have enough talent and you scheme well it can be overcome.

Plays are successful all the time when one or more players fails to do their part.

The Pencil Neck
11-18-2011, 10:44 AM
I don't believe it's all about Schaub. And I don't believe that Schaub has nothing to do with it.

Our QB has to sell it. Our RB has to sell it. Our OL has to sell it. And our TEs have to sell it.

Even when our running game was not a serious threat, people were still buying our playaction because everyone was selling it.

Now that our running game IS a serious threat, that just makes it that much more effective because now opponents have to sell out to try to stop the run.

bo orlando
11-18-2011, 11:01 AM
I don't believe it's all about Schaub. And I don't believe that Schaub has nothing to do with it.

Our QB has to sell it. Our RB has to sell it. Our OL has to sell it. And our TEs have to sell it.

Even when our running game was not a serious threat, people were still buying our playaction because everyone was selling it.

Now that our running game IS a serious threat, that just makes it that much more effective because now opponents have to sell out to try to stop the run.

An effective play-action fake has to look convincing at all levels. If an O-lineman, say, overcommits to his drive block knowing the PA is going to the backside, a savvy defensive lineman might be able to 'feel' that something is amiss and will maintain his gap. If the QB doesn't authentically commit to the handoff before taking it back (with both ball placement and footwork), a trailing safety, DE, or linebacker might 'feel' that something is amiss and keep the backside contain and blow up the play. The WR's & TE's similarly need to avoid "tells" in their blocking and route-running that would draw an extra safety or linebacker into coverage.

thunderkyss
11-18-2011, 04:24 PM
An effective play-action fake has to look convincing at all levels. If an O-lineman, say, overcommits to his drive block knowing the PA is going to the backside, a savvy defensive lineman might be able to 'feel' that something is amiss and will maintain his gap. If the QB doesn't authentically commit to the handoff before taking it back (with both ball placement and footwork), a trailing safety, DE, or linebacker might 'feel' that something is amiss and keep the backside contain and blow up the play. The WR's & TE's similarly need to avoid "tells" in their blocking and route-running that would draw an extra safety or linebacker into coverage.

On your regular play action play, the OL drops back into pass protection mode. The only thing that sells the play action here, is the fake by the QB & RB. The QB drops straight back, then turns to throw the ball.

On our PA Bootlegs, the OL acts as if they are running the zone stretch..... it's this movement by the OL that gets the entire Defense to bite, allows the QB to move, then reset with plenty of time to throw & allows for the secondary to forget about the receiver. The receivers can also fake a block, the DBs will avoid the block to get to the running back, leaving the receiver WTF open.

HJam72
11-18-2011, 04:29 PM
That's what the opposing DC's call it: WTF?

leebigeztx
11-18-2011, 09:49 PM
No you really don't understand what you are talking about because the defense will key off of what the QB is doing first and foremost since he is the guy with the ball. These other things are somewhat important (Which you seem to think that in a play action situation ONLY the line play or what the RB does matters, which is flat out wrong, wrong wrong), but if the QB is going to keep the ball he has to fool the DL, and the LB's because they will immediately drop trying to stop the run action and go for the QB if they even think that he has the ball, and they will more than likely have a free shot on him since nobody will be blocking. The DB's will also know whats going on and will keep their coverages tight on the receiving threats if they think it's the QB and not the RB who has the ball.

The QB can easily alert the defensive players that it was a fake by not attempting to hide the ball after he pulls it back, by turning and squaring up like he's going to throw too early, or even just by how he turns his body after the "hand-off". All of these things can bust up a PA (Doesn't matter if it's a stretch, or naked boot, or any of that stuff) and if the QB is bad at selling it, you're going to see the play get busted more often.

Look, I know it hurts your feelings when somebody says that Schaub as good (Which that would be the first time *I* have even mentioned Schaub in talking about play-action fakes in this thread) and you want to tear him down and make him "mediocre" in your mind, but you're using a lot of bad reasoning and faulty logic trying to persuade people into thinking that the QB has almost no bearing at all on how successful his offense runs the playaction. And with this post, I am saying you are flat out wrong. Has nothing to do with me liking or disliking Schaub as a QB, you are just straight up wrong and are blabbering at the mouth. The QB has quite a bit of responsibility in "selling" the hand-off to the opposing defense, as much or even moreso than the offensive line and running back.

I just want to get in and out real fast. In terms of of playaction and things, if the running backs are a threat, the backers can't retreat into coverage until the backs clears the qb. The way foster and tate are running the ball, the pause creates the gap between the backers and dbs. Look at schaubs ypa before the running game became forceful.

Texn4life
11-18-2011, 10:50 PM
Different defenses will have different keys for each LB, depending on the defensive front called against a certain offensive formation.

In Wade's 34, one of the base front is called the SAM & WILL TONTO against a standard pro set (2 RBs on each side and behind the QB).
Against this offensive formation, the Guards were uncovered so the MIKE and MO key on the Near Guard and the Near Back.
The SAM is head up on the TE and naturally keys on the TE to the near Back.
The WILL lines up as an 8-tech (about 2 yards outside the weak side OT); he has no O-lineman on him so he keys the BALL to the Near Back and the TRIANGLE (the QB, the Near Guard, and the Near Back).

Against the same pro set, a different defensive front called the SAM & WILL JET finds the LBs with different keys:
Both the MIKE & MO key through the Guard to the Near Back to the Ball.
Both the SAM & the WILL strickly key on the BALL.
In this defensive front, the front 7 are basically in the same position as the TONTO front, but they have different assignments (attacking different gaps).


I just spoke with a guy who played Linebacker at San Francisco for Manusky who pretty much ran the same system as Wade. He said that what you said isn't completely accurate, but I'll try to get with him to explain exactly what isn't. Can't say I'm the biggest Linebacker genius, so I'll leave that to him. I'll try to get him to post tomorrow.

76Texan
11-18-2011, 11:26 PM
I just spoke with a guy who played Linebacker at San Francisco for Manusky who pretty much ran the same system as Wade. He said that what you said isn't completely accurate, but I'll try to get with him to explain exactly what isn't. Can't say I'm the biggest Linebacker genius, so I'll leave that to him. I'll try to get him to post tomorrow.

It's straight out of the playbook (Falcons 2003).

In different fronts the defenders could have different keys.
Against different offensive formations, the defenders could also have different keys.

Manusky was LB coach when Wade was with the Chargers; he should be familiar with the system.

For all we know, they might change their teaching a little here and there over the years.

76Texan
11-18-2011, 11:29 PM
Here's the Jags running the PA pass in the first game against us in 09.

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h56m16s86.jpg


Jags were in straight I, TE on the left, both receivers on the right.


Initially, the showed a possible counter run with the FB going against the O-line flow.
Notice that the Jags faked a ZBS stretch run with the O-line going left, as well as the RB.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h56m27s198.jpg

76Texan
11-18-2011, 11:37 PM
Look how poorly Garrard's fake was. He was about 2-2/2 yards away from MJD when he did a poor imititation of a faked hand-off.
Only our 2 interior linemen were busy with the flow not to notice it soon enough.
The rest of them saw it right away, including WDE Mario and SDE Bulman, and all 3 LBs.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h56m34s11.jpg

The outside receiver ran a deep route (can't tell exactly the route).
The FB released when he didn't encounter any block on the LOS.
Diles picked him up and kept his discipline, not buyind the run fake.
The inside receiver crashed our SDE Bulman.
Bulman was very disciplined.
He stayed home to guard agaisnt a possible cut back run and also to play the bootleg.


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h56m36s27.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h56m38s43.jpg

The second screen shot showed that MLB Demeco already recognized the fake.
The third screen shot showed that the WILL Cushing also saw it and came to a screeching halt.

The last screen shot above showed that Garrard already pulled the ball back when MJD was still a yard away.

76Texan
11-18-2011, 11:55 PM
Bulman kept his discipline and held onto to the receiver long enough to allow Demeco and Cushing the time to get back.
He then chased after Garrard and forced him to throw the ball away.
Diles had coverage on the FB all the way.


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h56m49s161.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m00s6.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m05s59.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m16s172.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m28s38.jpg

76Texan
11-19-2011, 12:00 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m34s97.jpg

As Bulman got to Garrard, you can see that Diles was right on top of the FB, giving the QB no option to throw the ball.

By this time, the inside receiver was open (Bulman had left him).
Garrard had no time to turn back to the inside to attempt a pass to this receiver.

In the meantime, Demeco ran back deep to stay between the FB and the deep receiver.

76Texan
11-19-2011, 12:05 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m43s188.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m50s252.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/09%20Garrard%20unsuccessful%20PA%20off%20the%20SBZ %20stretch/vlcsnap-2011-11-18-10h57m57s71.jpg

You can see that Demeco had plenty of time to get back to play underneath the deeper route.
Garrard had no shot!

76Texan
11-19-2011, 12:12 AM
When you go back and look at the earlier shots, you can see that the LB can retreat before the RB clear the QB because the ball fake was so poorly executed!

The play action pass from Schaub to JJ in the Bucs game, on the other had, was executed very well; shall I say "to perfection"?

I will have a link to the screenshots of that play after a little break.

76Texan
11-19-2011, 12:30 AM
Here's the whole sequence of our PA pass Schaub to JJ.

You can see that Schaub's ball fake was superb such that it fools the LCB Alib and both safeties (and the entire Bucs defense).

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/11%20JJ%20vs%20Bucs%20off%20the%20ZBS%20stretch/


We sent Walter in to crash their SDE.

Instead of the FB, we had OD in the bunch formation with Walter and JJ.
We were in single back, with TE Dreessen on the left.

The formations are slightly different, but the play was designed very similarly.

We had both JJ and OD open while the Jags got zil.

The ZBS stretch didn't sell these two PA passes as much as the QB/RB fake.

2BCF
11-19-2011, 12:35 AM
I sure hope Kubiak doesn't think ML can just hand off the ball to Foster or Tate and expect it to be effective like when Shaub was QB.

Leinart will have to prove his passing accuracy/timing early on in order for our running game to succeed like it has been.
No passing threat, no running game... at least not at the same level we've grown accustomed to recently.

ObsiWan
11-19-2011, 06:31 AM
Here's the whole sequence of our PA pass Schaub to JJ.

You can see that Schaub's ball fake was superb such that it fools the LCB Alib and both safeties (and the entire Bucs defense).

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Play%20action/11%20JJ%20vs%20Bucs%20off%20the%20ZBS%20stretch/


We sent Walter in to crash their SDE.

Instead of the FB, we had OD in the bunch formation with Walter and JJ.
We were in single back, with TE Dreessen on the left.

The formations are slightly different, but the play was designed very similarly.

We had both JJ and OD open while the Jags got zil.

The ZBS stretch didn't sell these two PA passes as much as the QB/RB fake.

Another thing that makes our play action so successful is that everyone in the league knows that no matter the formation we show (well, except for empty backfield), we can - and have - executed runs or passes out of it. That flexibility from almost any formation plus the facts (a) Schaub's good at the fake, (b) the O-line makes both run and pass plays look identical at the outset, and (c) the RB also completely sells that he's got the ball make our P/A the best in the league.

I also hope Matt-2 has his acting skills at a high level. All the other "actors" in our play-action movie know their roles. Time for the understudy to show if he's been nailing his lines or screwing around all this time.

TexanFan881
11-19-2011, 07:58 AM
I sure hope Kubiak doesn't think ML can just hand off the ball to Foster or Tate and expect it to be effective like when Shaub was QB.

Leinart will have to prove his passing accuracy/timing early on in order for our running game to succeed like it has been.
No passing threat, no running game... at least not at the same level we've grown accustomed to recently.

Amen! This is what I've been preaching since the beginning!
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1830774&postcount=84

thunderkyss
11-19-2011, 08:31 AM
Amen! This is what I've been preaching since the beginning!
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1830774&postcount=84

I know it's cute to assume we know better than the guy who has worked with Leinart & Schaub on a daily basis for the last 11 weeks.... & the entire 2010 season. We assume we are better equipped to assess the abilities and short-comings of our players than the coaches (Dennison & Knapp are included in this group), then finally we'll be able to design a better game plan for the situation we currently find ourselves in.

I'm not ready to nominate Kubiak for coach of the year or anything like that. But we are 7-3 right now & Matt hasn't had to do anything special.

I'm sure Kubiak knows what Leinart can & can't do, and I'm confident he won't unnecessarily put Matt, or the team in a precarious position.

Texn4life
11-19-2011, 09:42 AM
It's straight out of the playbook (Falcons 2003).

In different fronts the defenders could have different keys.
Against different offensive formations, the defenders could also have different keys.

Manusky was LB coach when Wade was with the Chargers; he should be familiar with the system.

For all we know, they might change their teaching a little here and there over the years.

Yeah, we're both aware that Manusky coached at San Diego under Wade which is why I asked him. He broke down some scenarios in which coming where you're right, but he went through so many different scenarios that I started to zone out honestly. But he did say in Wade's base defense, every LB is getting his initial Run/Pass read either from an OL or TE/H-back on the edge. Hell, personally I don't care as long as we continue to run our play action well.

bo orlando
11-19-2011, 11:09 AM
Here's the whole sequence of our PA pass Schaub to JJ.

...

The ZBS stretch didn't sell these two PA passes as much as the QB/RB fake.


I completely disagree with this last statement. From watching those stills, it's remarkable how well the offensive line sells the fake. They unanimously, harmoniously blow the Bucs line off the ball at the snap and Walter even executes a vicious cut block on the DE. If you're a defender and you think this is a pass then you either heard the playcall or get ready for your position coach to chew you out on the sideline for playing passive and allowing Foster to pick up an easy 15 yard run. Schaub/Foster can certainly ruin all that good work with a Garrard/MJD-like tell, but the primary onus for the fake is not on them.

The Pencil Neck
11-19-2011, 11:24 AM
I sure hope Kubiak doesn't think ML can just hand off the ball to Foster or Tate and expect it to be effective like when Shaub was QB.

Leinart will have to prove his passing accuracy/timing early on in order for our running game to succeed like it has been.
No passing threat, no running game... at least not at the same level we've grown accustomed to recently.

I won't be surprised if our first 5-10 plays against the Jags are passes. Kubes will probably do everything in his power to get Leinart a 300 yard day.

ThaJokaa
11-19-2011, 03:05 PM
1st play, we going long man -Anderson

76Texan
11-22-2011, 11:50 AM
I completely disagree with this last statement. From watching those stills, it's remarkable how well the offensive line sells the fake. They unanimously, harmoniously blow the Bucs line off the ball at the snap and Walter even executes a vicious cut block on the DE. If you're a defender and you think this is a pass then you either heard the playcall or get ready for your position coach to chew you out on the sideline for playing passive and allowing Foster to pick up an easy 15 yard run. Schaub/Foster can certainly ruin all that good work with a Garrard/MJD-like tell, but the primary onus for the fake is not on them.

Look at the Jags; their O-line did a good acting job, too!
They even pulled the LT to the outside of the TE.
Any defender(s) that key(s) on the LT would have read run first.

Like Obsi and some others said, the O-line obviously needs to their part of selling, but the rest of the team, especially the QB & RB, has a lot to do with selling the play fake as well.

Rey
11-22-2011, 11:59 AM
Look at the Jags; their O-line did a good acting job, too!
They even pulled the LT to the outside of the TE.
Any defender(s) that key(s) on the LT would have read run first.

Like Obsi and some others said, the O-line obviously needs to their part of selling, but the rest of the team, especially the QB & RB, has a lot to do with selling the play fake as well.

It starts with the O-line. The QB selling the fake is secondary. All parts are important, but the O-line and threat of the running game is the most important component to selling and executing a good play action pass.

The QB executing his part and doing a great job holds the defense for a bit longer than a half hearted poor effort would.

Starts with the O-line...The QB needs to do his part to make the play even better.

76Texan
11-22-2011, 12:00 PM
Yeah, we're both aware that Manusky coached at San Diego under Wade which is why I asked him. He broke down some scenarios in which coming where you're right, but he went through so many different scenarios that I started to zone out honestly. But he did say in Wade's base defense, every LB is getting his initial Run/Pass read either from an OL or TE/H-back on the edge. Hell, personally I don't care as long as we continue to run our play action well.

If you watch closely, there are times when our OLBs (SAM and/or WILL) simply jump into the backfield after their get-off.

They pay no attention to any lineman or TE on the LOS.

76Texan
11-22-2011, 12:05 PM
It starts with the O-line. The QB selling the fake is secondary. All parts are important, but the O-line and threat of the running game is the most important component to selling and executing a good play action pass.

The QB executing his part and doing a great job holds the defense for a bit longer than a half hearted poor effort would.

Starts with the O-line...The QB needs to do his part to make the play even better.

Of course, everything starts with the O-line.

You think the Jags O-line in 09 was crap?
How about MJD? We didn't respect their run game in 09?

Besides the O-line, the QB fake is what set apart the teams that are good in play-action pass.

Rey
11-22-2011, 12:32 PM
Of course, everything starts with the O-line.

You think the Jags O-line in 09 was crap?
How about MJD? We didn't respect their run game in 09?

Besides the O-line, the QB fake is what set apart the teams that are good in play-action pass.

I disagree with your breakdown of the Jags stuff above...

Well I don't disagree, I just believe you are making your own narrative again...

First off, MJD is the one who looks to have done a poor job selling the fake...He doesn't get close enough to the QB and he never looks like he's taking the hand-off. Secondly...Just because a player (Diles in this case) did what he was supposed to doesn't mean it wasn't a good fake. You're saying that he recognized the poor job by the QB and I call BS. He's on the complete opposite side of the PA. He cannot man up on the FB and see the QB doing a poor job through the O-line on the opposote side of the formation.

Texans defense should be one of the better defenses against PA since our offense uses it so much.I would imagine we tend to be more disciplined in not biting too hard on the run.

76Texan
11-22-2011, 12:59 PM
I disagree with your breakdown of the Jags stuff above...

Well I don't disagree, I just believe you are making your own narrative again...

First off, MJD is the one who looks to have done a poor job selling the fake...He doesn't get close enough to the QB and he never looks like he's taking the hand-off. Secondly...Just because a player (Diles in this case) did what he was supposed to doesn't mean it wasn't a good fake. You're saying that he recognized the poor job by the QB and I call BS. He's on the complete opposite side of the PA. He cannot man up on the FB and see the QB doing a poor job through the O-line on the opposote side of the formation.

Texans defense should be one of the better defenses against PA since our offense uses it so much.I would imagine we tend to be more disciplined in not biting too hard on the run.

I don't think the still shots do a good job of showing the play fake (even though it does for me.)
Garrard never extended his arm the way Schaub did.
He half-cocked the ball and pulled it back.

In slow motion, you can see that Diles, as the WILL, was looking into the backfield (at the QB/RB) all the way.

We know that the Texans were in zone the way Dunta lined up and how the defense never reacted to the motion of the receiver.
Diles wasn't manning up on anybody.

Due to the flow of the O-line, Diles had a clear view of the backfield.

Texn4life
11-22-2011, 01:37 PM
If you watch closely, there are times when our OLBs (SAM and/or WILL) simply jump into the backfield after their get-off.

They pay no attention to any lineman or TE on the LOS.

No offense my man, but I'll take the word of someone who's played in the defense before over someone who's a film junkie. Not discounting your credibility at all though.

76Texan
11-22-2011, 02:25 PM
No offense my man, but I'll take the word of someone who's played in the defense before over someone who's a film junkie. Not discounting your credibility at all though.

Don't forget that I only said "some times", not most of the times.

Also, don't forget that I also said the playbook mostly have the LBs with their keys (an O-lineman, a TE, etc.)

All I'm saying that there are times when a certain D-lineman or LB simply key on the ball.

In fact, in the SAM & WILL JET front, the defense aims to attack (blitz or run blitz).
All five guys on the line KEY on the BALL.
Only the ILBs (the MIKE and the MO) key through the Guard to the Near Back and then the BALL.

Texn4life
11-22-2011, 02:44 PM
Don't forget that I only said "some times", not most of the times.

Also, don't forget that I also said the playbook mostly have the LBs with their keys (an O-lineman, a TE, etc.)

All I'm saying that there are times when a certain D-lineman or LB simply key on the ball.

In fact, in the SAM & WILL JET front, the defense aims to attack (blitz or run blitz).
All five guys on the line KEY on the BALL.
Only the ILBs (the MIKE and the MO) key through the Guard to the Near Back and then the BALL.

You missed where I pointed out "base" defense. There is NEVER a situation in a "base" defense 4-3 or 3-4 when the initial run/pass read isn't on an OL/Tight End/H-Back. You sound like u know quite a bit about football so I respect your opinion, but this is a situation where you're wrong.

76Texan
11-23-2011, 09:28 AM
You missed where I pointed out "base" defense. There is NEVER a situation in a "base" defense 4-3 or 3-4 when the initial run/pass read isn't on an OL/Tight End/H-Back. You sound like u know quite a bit about football so I respect your opinion, but this is a situation where you're wrong.

Base defense:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Wades%20Defense/SAM%20WILL%20TONTO/SAMWILLTONTO.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Wades%20Defense/SAM%20WILL%20TONTO%20responsibilities/SAMWILLTONTOresponsibilities.jpg

76Texan
11-23-2011, 09:32 AM
Another base defense:


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Wades%20Defense/SAM%20WILL%20JET/SAMWILLJET.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Wades%20Defense/SAM%20WILL%20JET%20responsibilities/SAMWILLJETRESPONSIBILITIES.jpg

Texn4life
11-23-2011, 11:41 AM
Another base defense:


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Wades%20Defense/SAM%20WILL%20JET/SAMWILLJET.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Wades%20Defense/SAM%20WILL%20JET%20responsibilities/SAMWILLJETRESPONSIBILITIES.jpg

I think I gave you a little too much credit....... Look up the term base defense. I understand running slants and stunts there will be different assignments. In a "base" defense there will never be a key on the ball from a Linebacker. Verified this with more than one person now.

HJam72
11-23-2011, 12:14 PM
It's football; there are no bases to defend.

Thorn
11-23-2011, 12:19 PM
It's football; there are no bases to defend.

4 bases in baseball, 4 quarters in football. That can't be just a coincidence.

HJam72
11-23-2011, 12:22 PM
1st Qtr. Defense

2nd Qtr. Defense

3rd Qtr. Defense

4th Qtr. Defense

Sounds like just the kind of crap Wade would use....and it would work. :)

drunkcookie
11-23-2011, 12:58 PM
I think I gave you a little too much credit....... Look up the term base defense. I understand running slants and stunts there will be different assignments. In a "base" defense there will never be a key on the ball from a Linebacker. Verified this with more than one person now.

I think the point was that LBs "do" key on the ball sometimes... a little mix up with terminology (base defense) wasn't the point... his main point was that in the 2003 Falcon defense, there were Lbs keying off of the ball... you said it wasn't accurate, he scanned the damn pages... it's done...

Base defense/treble defense/national defense, doesn't matter... that was not the point...

76Texan
11-23-2011, 01:02 PM
I think I gave you a little too much credit....... Look up the term base defense. I understand running slants and stunts there will be different assignments. In a "base" defense there will never be a key on the ball from a Linebacker. Verified this with more than one person now.

You might want to verify with some guys who played for the Falcons in 03.

All I know is that in their playboook, there were only a handfull of base defense (showing against the pro set - which I was showing). With each, there were a number of complimentary stunts and blitzes.

As far as LB read in general; I don't know about the claim that "all LBs have to key off an O-lineman", but here's some coaches who disagree with you:

http://coachhuey.com/index.cgi?board=gendefense&action=display&thread=39126&page=1

The reason we read the Backfield is...because that's all I've done.
How about that circular logic. I will read the backfield the rest of my life because...that's what I want to do.

My reasoning has less to do with theory and more to do with human nature. In the 4th quarter when everybody's bleeding and nobody can catch their breath, those Linebackers will be looking into the Backfield.
Not much logic there, just how I feel about it.

I was trained by, "look at the FB, he will take you to the play" out of the 50.

.....
We read guards for 4 years, because it's what our head coach wanted, and I always had problems with the LB's sitting and hopping, or blown reads due to sloppy line play.

Last year, under a new head coach, I had the opportunity to teach reading backfield flow. Our LB play improved dramatically. All the guys played with much better aggression and confidence.

.....

We have done both read guards and and read OL. As a player I was taught to read OL so it is what I knew so it is what I taught. This year I replaced our old LB coach with a buddy of mine who played at a different University. He was taught to read the backs, so instead of telling him to teach something he didn't know I said go with what you know. I was skeptical because well I had limited experience with reading the RB's

The result this year was I learned a lot & reading the RB's was awesome for us.

....

You see that even in HS, coaches have different opinions about LB keys.

This one probably sums it up best:

"Back keys

When Linebackers key running backs their reactions are usually clear and unsophisticated. The beauty of running back keys is their simplicity with double-gap responsible linebackers who fast flow. Back keys are really tempting. Back keys are confidence builders for inexperienced players and coaches. The rules that players usually learn are the following:

* When my keys comes to me, I attack my frontside gap
* When my key goes away, I attack my backside gap.
* When my key shows pass block or pass route, I drop into my coverage rule.

Back keys lend themselves to aggressive, attacking, two-gap players."

Lineman Keys

"Keying a lineman is more complex. Rather then having three basic running-back paths, a linebacker may have to react to five to eight courses. So why consider it? Lineman rarely lie. They are the truest keys.
With play-action pass, a running back lies. He fakes a run, and those who key him loose movement to the receivers. Usually line-men show pass protection.
When defending the winged-T offense, linebacker coaches often must compromise their back keys or decide to be unsound against the offense's weakest or least frequently used plays because of the misdirection in this offense. The counter play is popular in nearly all offensive attacks today.

When the linebackers correctly read the players on the line of scrimmage, they will react immediately to without any false steps. Linemen are more difficult to read but more truthful.
Another advantage in focusing on lineman is that linebackers can more readily recognize tips from their stances that will alert them to particular plays.
When focused on a back key, an unsuspecting linebacker will often contact a lineman. This can lead to a poor hit-and-shed base."

Triangle keys

"In an attempt to combine the two keys previously described, many coaches teach keying a triangle of backs, lineman, and the ball. It gives the player the potential fast flow of a back read with the caution of a pulling lineman who says "not so fast" on misdirection plays.

Personally, I believe having a prime key is critical. The linebacker needs a key he can depend on no matter what offense is being employed against him. The triangular system is sound but requires exceptional coaching ability. It also opens the door for a linebacker to guess because he is uncertain about the clarity of multiple keys.
Back reads are very clean although they can be deceiving with play-action passes and counters. Pure line reads are truest but take tremendous discipline and require time to learn. The triangle keys attempt to mesh the two, but at some point one key must take priority over the other or the linebacker cannot move with confidence."

76Texan
11-23-2011, 01:04 PM
I think the point was that LBs "do" key on the ball sometimes... a little mix up with terminology (base defense) wasn't the point... his main point was that in the 2003 Falcon defense, there were Lbs keying off of the ball... you said it wasn't accurate, he scanned the damn pages... it's done...

Base defense/treble defense/national defense, doesn't matter... that was not the point...

Thank you!

76Texan
11-23-2011, 01:09 PM
I would say that a lot of the stuff he showed in the Saints game is what gave me this general opinion. He only tried a few deep throws (Which were a little off) and the short stuff wasn't really that impressive to me. He did look better against the 9'ers, and respectable enough vs the Vikings, but that Saints game bugged me about him.

I will say that I feel way better about Leinart being here as the next backup than Rex Grossman or Dan Orlovsky.

I've finished taking all the screenshot of the 18 pass attempts by Leinart in this game. (There was also another attempt that was not recorded as the CB was called for holding.)

I don't have time to disect the plays until maybe tomorrow or Friday, so for now, just let me post the link to the photo album:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS%202%20Saints/

Texan_Bill
11-23-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't think the still shots do a good job of showing the play fake (even though it does for me.)
Garrard never extended his arm the way Schaub did.
He half-cocked the ball and pulled it back.

In slow motion, you can see that Diles, as the WILL, was looking into the backfield (at the QB/RB) all the way.

We know that the Texans were in zone the way Dunta lined up and how the defense never reacted to the motion of the receiver.
Diles wasn't manning up on anybody.

Due to the flow of the O-line, Diles had a clear view of the backfield.

Combination of the two. BOTH Garrard AND MJD did a piss poor job of selling the play fake. I wouldn't had bit either.

Texn4life
11-23-2011, 01:29 PM
I think the point was that LBs "do" key on the ball sometimes... a little mix up with terminology (base defense) wasn't the point... his main point was that in the 2003 Falcon defense, there were Lbs keying off of the ball... you said it wasn't accurate, he scanned the damn pages... it's done...

Base defense/treble defense/national defense, doesn't matter... that was not the point...


Good point...... I should have clarified what I consider a base defense. I apologize 76Texan for not clearing that up initially. I'll just leave it at that. Like I said I respect your football knowledge, but apparently this is one of the situations where we're not going to agree. A base defense for most people who've played linebacker is pretty cut and dry from everyone I've asked. But if you think differently then I understand and respect it.

76Texan
11-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Combination of the two. BOTH Garrard AND MJD did a piss poor job of selling the play fake. I wouldn't had bit either.

Yeape!

Also, the play action shows you that simply keying on an O-lineman might not be a good idea.

I talked about how the LT pulled outside the TE (the TE then released).

If the SS (Bushing) and the SCB (Dunta) key on the LT (and only the LT), they would have been fooled, thinking that this is an outside zone run (strectch play).

The TE would have been wide open if both these two guys came up to defend the run.

76Texan
11-23-2011, 01:33 PM
Good point...... I should have clarified what I consider a base defense. I apologize 76Texan for not clearing that up initially. I'll just leave it at that. Like I said I respect your football knowledge, but apparently this is one of the situations where we're not going to agree. A base defense for most people who've played linebacker is pretty cut and dry from everyone I've asked. But if you think differently then I understand and respect it.

No biggie.
I enjoy talking football.
Rey and Vinny had several "run-ins" with me; we enjoyed the "arguments" nonetheless!

Texn4life
11-23-2011, 01:36 PM
No biggie.
I enjoy talking football.
Rey and Vinny had several "run-ins" with me; we enjoyed the "arguments" nonetheless!

I enjoy it too man trust me...... I "argue" with friends all the time about football. It's what makes sports fun. You can debate just about anything and make it a good time. And most of the time my friends think I'm a fool for thinking the things I do. Outside the box thinker all of my life.

HJam72
11-23-2011, 01:56 PM
"look at the FB, he will knock your butt out"

Just wanted to fix that part. :)

thunderkyss
11-23-2011, 03:53 PM
Good point...... I should have clarified what I consider a base defense. I apologize 76Texan for not clearing that up initially. I'll just leave it at that. Like I said I respect your football knowledge, but apparently this is one of the situations where we're not going to agree. A base defense for most people who've played linebacker is pretty cut and dry from everyone I've asked. But if you think differently then I understand and respect it.

What do you consider a base defense?

76Texan
11-26-2011, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by b0ng
I would say that a lot of the stuff he showed in the Saints game is what gave me this general opinion. He only tried a few deep throws (Which were a little off) and the short stuff wasn't really that impressive to me. He did look better against the 9'ers, and respectable enough vs the Vikings, but that Saints game bugged me about him.

I will say that I feel way better about Leinart being here as the next backup than Rex Grossman or Dan Orlovsky.



I've finished taking all the screenshot of the 18 pass attempts by Leinart in this game. (There was also another attempt that was not recorded as the CB was called for holding.)

I don't have time to disect the plays until maybe tomorrow or Friday, so for now, just let me post the link to the photo album:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/PS%202%20Saints/

Don't have much time so I'm just gonna throw out a quick analysis of Leinart's play against the Saints in the PS.

IMO, he played quite well, especially given the circumstances.
See the link above for screenshots of all the plays.

..

Texans were playing with a make-shift line:
63 Barbieri, 79 Wallace, 70 Pemberton, 71 Smith, and 75 Newton

The Saints were still playing with starters like:
#90 DT/DE McBride, #58 LB Shanle, #56 LB Dunbar
2nd stringers:
#93 Galette
#94 Jordan
Reserve:
#76 King
...

2nd Qtr (1 min drill)

1-10-HST 14 (:59) (Shotgun) B.Tate up the middle ran ob at NO 43 for 43 yards (T.Lambert). R17


1-10-NO 43 (:50) (Shotgun) M.Leinart pass to J.Jones to NO 35 for 8 yards (S.Shanle).
With the Saints playing Cover 2 to prevent the long passes, the Texans looked to move the ball with short passes.
There were only 50 secs left in the half.
If we can't get a TD, we'd like to be in range for a FG here.
On this play, they ran a Hi-Lo with Dreessen ran his up-and-out route such as to "screen out" the nickel back (I marked him here as the SAM by mistake).
JJ cut underneath on a quick slant for 8.
This is Leinart's first read, and since JJ was wide open, Leinart quickly found him.


2-2-NO 35 (:36) (Shotgun) M.Leinart pass short right to J.Dreessen to NO 21 for 14 yards (M.Parson). P18
Timeout #2 by HST at 00:29.
The Saints were in cover 2 again, with 5 underneath zone.
Seeing that the SAM 58 shaded too much to the inside while Dreessen was going to run the quick up-and-out route like in the previous play (and should be open in the zone), Leinart quickly found him for a 14-yd gain.


1-10-NO 21 (:29) (Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete deep right to D.Darling [J.Galette].PENALTY on NO-M.Parson, Illegal Contact, 5 yards, enforced at NO 21 - No Play. X19
Texans were in single back shotgun spread.
The Saints came with an all-out blitz (7 men).
Leinart wanted to go with his first read #86 Casey, but one of the DT beat a block and was ready to bat the ball down.
Leinart smartly pulled the ball down.
With pressure from 3 sides (frame #12), Leinart did all he can to avoid the pass rushes and managed to step up (to the right).
A throw to his left (Casey) would be very awkward for a lefty so Leinart looked for Darling along the right side line (frame #18).
Darling should have cut short his route to come back to help out his QB, especially since the LCB already turned his head to go back deep.
This was the best throw that Leinart can make under the circumstances.
He did several things well here, including not trying to run with the ball (time constraint) as one of the D-linemen (93 Galette) pound on him and put him down just as he released the ball.


1-10-NO 16 (:25) (Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete deep right to J.Dreessen [Turk.McBride].
Leinart made the correct decision to throw the ball away here.
SDE Galette beat Newton and almost pulled Leinart down by Leinart's left arm (his throwing arm.)
Leinart did a good job holding on to the ball with both hands
He stepped up (and in the process, avoided a blitzing LB who came in free on the right side of the offense) but there was no room in the pocket.
Leinart got rid of the ball as DT McBride pound on him from behind.

2-10-NO 16 (:20) (Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete short middle to J.Jones.
The nickel back left JJ to come in on a blitz.
Leinart's throw was just high (very slightly behind but within arm reach).
What the Texans broadcasters (Spencer Tilman and ??) didn't mention was that the ball was tipped by the blitzing CB - by a fingertip.
I learned this fact from Wilcott Solomon, the analyst on the Saints' feed.


3-10-NO 16 (:17) (Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete deep middle to J.Dreessen.
Another 6-man blitz. A LB came in free, forcing Leinart to throw the ball away as there was no hot route in the pattern. Leinart was decked as he got rid of the ball.
For the drive, Leinart made all the right decisions, didn't take any sack, and moved the ball well within FG range for Rackers.


4-10-NO 16 (:12) N.Rackers 34 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-S.Albritton, Holder-B.Maynard.

76Texan
11-26-2011, 11:23 AM
Third quarter

Houston Texans at 15:00, (1st play from scrimmage 14:56)

1-10-HST 14 (14:56) M.Leinart pass short left to J.Dreessen to HST 23 for 9 yards (S.Miller).
On the bootleg, Leinart looked first to Lester Jean and Graham downfield, but neither was open (both were double-teamed).
JJ was running a quick out as Leinart rolled out; the RCB played underneath; there was no throw. If there was a "sight-adjust" call here, JJ would have turned downfield (but he didn't.)
Leinart did well to find Dreessen for a 9-yd gain (Dreessen had fallen down on the block, but got up to finish his route.)


2-1-HST 23 (14:17) C.Ogbonnaya up the middle to HST 25 for 2 yards (Turk.McBride, M.Wilson). R20
1-10-HST 25 (13:41) C.Ogbonnaya right guard to HST 28 for 3 yards (S.Miller; M.Wilson).


2-7-HST 28 (13:05) M.Leinart pass incomplete short middle to J.Jones (C.Jordan).
Against a 7-man blitz (only 6 blockers), Leinart quickly went to the hot route (JJ) but the ball was tipped by Mitch King.


3-7-HST 28 (13:00) (Shotgun) M.Leinart pass incomplete short middle to J.Jones (J.Dunbar).
On a 6-man blitz, MLB hurried Leinart's throw.
The pass was a little high and in front of JJ (which is where you'd want the ball to be such that the receiver is the only one who has a chance at it.)
Leinart was decked by Dunbar just after he released the ball.
On 3rd and 7, going with JJ was a good idea (trying to get the first down.)

PUNT

76Texan
11-26-2011, 11:24 AM
Houston Texans at 10:42

1-10-NO 27 (10:42) C.Ogbonnaya right end to NO 22 for 5 yards (M.Parson, S.Miller).
2-5-NO 22 (10:05) C.Ogbonnaya left tackle to NO 22 for no gain (J.Dunbar).

3-5-NO 22 (9:23) M.Leinart pass incomplete short left to T.Toliver.
Against a 7-man blitz, Leinart quickly found his first read that would have converted the third down had he (Tolliver) not dropped the ball on a quick hook.

4-5-NO 22 (9:19) N.Rackers 40 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-S.Albritton, Holder-B.Hartmann.

76Texan
11-26-2011, 11:27 AM
Houston Texans at 6:14

1-10-HST 34 (6:14) M.Leinart pass incomplete short right to L.Vickers.
Leinart's first read (Dreessen) was running toward coverage, so Leinart went with his 2nd read (Vickers) who promptly dropped the ball. He was wide open and would have gained at least 5 yards in the flat.


2-10-HST 34 (6:08) M.Leinart pass incomplete deep left to J.Jones.
Leinart's pass was just long to JJ on the side line.
The LDT didn't allow Leinart a whole lot of time to sit in the pocket.


3-10-HST 34 (6:02) M.Leinart pass short right to D.Dickerson to HST 47 for 13 yards (M.Parson). P21
On third and 10, Leinart correctly identified the open man (his second read) Dickerson for 13 and a first down.

1-10-HST 47 (5:28) C.Ogbonnaya left end to NO 47 for 6 yards (Tru.McBride).
2-4-NO 47 (4:50) C.Ogbonnaya left tackle to NO 45 for 2 yards (C.Jordan).
3-2-NO 45 (4:12) C.Ogbonnaya up the middle to NO 40 for 5 yards (Tru.McBride).
PENALTY on HST-C.Pemberton, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at NO 45 - No Play.


3-7-50 (3:45) M.Leinart pass short middle to D.Darling to NO 42 for 8 yards (J.Amaya) [J.Dunbar].
On third and seven, against a 7-man blitz, Leinart played it well drawing the blitzers in before hitting Darling on a shallow cross for 8 and a first down.


1-10-NO 42 (3:05) C.Ogbonnaya left guard to NO 39 for 3 yards (M.King).

2-7-NO 39 (2:26) M.Leinart pass short right to J.Jones pushed ob at NO 33 for 6 yards (M.Parson).
On another all-out blitz, Leinart found JJ for 6 on a smashed pattern (Graham deep, JJ cut underneath on a quick out) to make it 3rd and one.


3-1-NO 33 (2:00) C.Ogbonnaya right tackle to NO 35 for -2 yards (M.King; J.Amaya).
Timeout #1 by HST at 01:14.

4-3-NO 35 (1:14) M.Leinart pass incomplete short right to G.Graham.
On 4th and 3, Leinart found the right target Graham on a bump and run quick out.
Graham knew that he should have caught that ball (he was clapping his hand to acknowledge it right after the play.) It was a very catchable ball for a NFL TE.

76Texan
11-26-2011, 11:27 AM
4th Quarter

Houston Texans at 14:48
1-10-HST 19 (14:48) C.Ogbonnaya left tackle to HST 21 for 2 yards (J.Amaya).

2-8-HST 21 (14:13) M.Leinart pass short middle to D.Darling to HST 27 for 6 yards (M.Parson).
Against another all-out (7-man) blitz, Leinart quickly found Darling for a 6-yd gain to give the Texans a very manageable 3rd and 2.


3-2-HST 27 (13:36) C.Ogbonnaya left tackle to HST 28 for 1 yard (P.Prioleau).

PUNT

76Texan
11-26-2011, 11:28 AM
Houston Texans at 10:02

1-10-HST 10 (10:02) M.Leinart pass short middle to A.Hill to HST 15 for 5 yards (M.Wilson).
Leinart did well pulling the ball back to avoid a possible batted ball by the DE Jordan.
The pump fake also drew two defenders toward Vickers in the flat.
Leinart bought some time and threw the ball to TE Hill for a 5-yd gain.


2-5-HST 15 (9:24) C.Ogbonnaya right guard to HST 22 for 7 yards (M.Wilson). R23
1-10-HST 22 (8:43) C.Ogbonnaya left tackle to HST 29 for 7 yards (D.Roberson, Q.Butler).
2-3-HST 29 (8:01) C.Ogbonnaya right guard to HST 31 for 2 yards (D.Roberson, C.Reis).
3-1-HST 31 (7:20) C.Ogbonnaya right end pushed ob at HST 44 for 13 yards (N.Bussey).
1-10-HST 44 (6:48) C.Ogbonnaya left tackle to HST 44 for no gain (C.Reis)
.

2-10-HST 44 (6:07) M.Leinart pass incomplete deep right to D.Townsel.
On a 7-man blitz, Leinrart went for it and threw the ball long toward the side line.
There was a miscommunication here as the receiver Townsend didn't adjust to the outside throw.


3-10-HST 44 (6:01) J.Williams right end to NO 49 for 7 yards (D.Roberson).

76Texan
11-26-2011, 11:31 AM
Don't forget that the Texans put another scrub on the O-line in the 4th Qtr (#77 G Morris) while the Saints still have some 2nd stringers in there (Jordan, Galette, Wilson)

Starter McBride played all of the third quarter, while starters Dunbar and Shanle played through the first series in the 4th quarter (the first of 2 series for Leinart in the 4th).

Leinart faced a lot of pressure and made all the right decisions.
If he continues to do this, I see no reason why the offense would stall.
That is unless our O-line stinks it up or the opponents' D play light out.

steelbtexan
11-26-2011, 12:16 PM
76, You're giving me hope. LOL

Looks like Leinart will be able to make the plays necessary to keep the offense moving. He seems to make good decisions with the ball.

The only throw he cant make is the deep out to the far hash. (Schaub doesn't do this well either.) This could be that he lost some arm strength after his surgey.

Playoffs
11-27-2011, 11:47 AM
If you were to put a speed gun (http://sicksport.com/images/baseball_speed_gun.jpg) on Leinart's in game passes versus Shaub's, what would it say ... ?

Subjectively, just watching pregame comparisons, it looks like Leinart's would be clocked slower/lower m.p.h.?