PDA

View Full Version : Please help me understand


Dime
04-26-2005, 03:00 PM
I am trying to figure out why we are releasing players who have value and not getting picks out of them this year or next? Hell, give us a third at least for these folks.

Based on Comp picks.. Will they comp us next year for Sharper, Foreman and Glenn, or we just basically are hung out to dry with them?

cadahnic
04-26-2005, 03:08 PM
Ok I am gonna give you a little knowledge.

Glenn and Sharper will be comped and likely will each be 4th or 5th rounders respectively. We are releasing these guys without other teams giving us picks because other teams will not give us picks because they know the likelyhood we will release them anyway. Currently the Texans organization is becoming younger, faster, and hopefully more athletic, but in this process we will be parting with players that we have all come to know and like. Wong, Walker, and Coleman will soon be leaving also so you might want to prepare for it. We are a team that builds through the draft and with that type of organizational structure it means we will use free agnecy and trades to fill holes and the draft to make or break our team.

wags
04-26-2005, 03:09 PM
I am trying to figure out why we are releasing players who have value and not getting picks out of them this year or next? Hell, give us a third at least for these folks.

Based on Comp picks.. Will they comp us next year for Sharper, Foreman and Glenn, or we just basically are hung out to dry with them?

No comp picks for us.

Teams aren't trading for these guys because they have huge contracts. If we release then a team can sign them for chicken feed or "Sharper-feed." Whichever you like better.

rittenhouserobz
04-26-2005, 03:11 PM
No comp picks for us.

Teams aren't trading for these guys because they have huge contracts. If we release then a team can sign them for chicken feed or "Sharper-feed." Whichever you like better.

How do you know that we get no Comp picks for them?

wags
04-26-2005, 03:12 PM
How do you know that we get no Comp picks for them?

No comp picks for players you release!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dime
04-26-2005, 03:14 PM
Surprised I am we will only get 4th and 5th picks for them when they (being fair) would be at least a second for each. That is if WAGS is wrong. But if he is right, then how do people get comp picks.. based on what?

F-minus67
04-26-2005, 03:14 PM
The big three that we released were all old and had huge cap numbers and unless we wanted to end up like the Titans did this year, management had to take action. Foreman got paided a lot and never lived up to his contract. Sharper was not the playmaker that most of us thought that he was and had a knee problem. Glenn has had a few injuries and missed time the past couple of years. Management brought in younger faster players to offset the lost of these dudes and time will tell if they made the right choice.

Dime
04-26-2005, 03:18 PM
That I understand, but why would we release them then keep them on the roster and possible trade them. I mean, a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th round pick is better then nothing.

wags
04-26-2005, 03:21 PM
That is if WAGS is wrong. But if he is right, then how do people get comp picks.. based on what?

When you draft players and their contract runs out, then you can make them a tender. If another team wants that player then you will get comp picks based on what kind of tender you gave to the player. As an example: If we tender Dom Davis next year, a team that wants him will have to give up maybe a first and third to get him.

Franchise and transition tag players also get you comp picks.

michaelm
04-26-2005, 03:27 PM
Dime,

here is a link to the explaination that I gave on another thread...

This is how I veiw the releases. http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=114225&postcount=155

rittenhouserobz
04-26-2005, 03:35 PM
The benefit of losing these players is cap space and younger players.

The Cost is dead cap money and we lose veteran leadship.

Did I sum this up good?

wags
04-26-2005, 03:35 PM
I think another way you get comp picks is by losing players in free agency. If you lose quality free agents and fail to bring in more free agents than you lose, you might be entitled to compensation from the league. Confusing isn't it. :confused:

TheOgre
04-26-2005, 03:47 PM
The comp picks work like this.

FA Players Signed - FA Players Lost = net FA effect

If the league determines that this "net FA effect" is negative, then they have a complex formula for determining how many complementary picks you receive. The picks given out will be at the end of the 3rd - 7th rounds. No team can receive more than 4 picks total. Some players you think are included, are not. Since it is a subjective system, the league guards the formula and value of given players like it is a government secret.

I didn't realize that cut players do not count as FA players lost. That hurts because I was thinking that Greenwood - Sharper - Glenn - Foreman would net us some picks.

Texas_Thrill
04-26-2005, 03:47 PM
I'm very okay with us releasing them. I was a huge sharper fan and will be even with him with the seahawks. However let's face it he's pushing 30 if not already there.

I think we need to be patient people. I realize that football in texas is religion. In the name of the father, the son, and the gridiron but please let's give them time. They are on a youth movement for the LONG-TERM. We still aren't ready for the playoffs and the players we released won't be as good by the time we are. I presume in two years we'll be competing for a slot.

thegr8fan
04-26-2005, 03:56 PM
ok, so someone explain why we released these players NOW, today, and not later in the year. WHY?

Why not hold on to them till training camp at least. If they want to be a holdout and NOT go to training camp, fine, sit at home. But why now? Why not after June 1 when you take less of a hit this year on dead salary cap money and some of it goes over into the following year? Or if we have the cap space to take the hit this year, why not May 31? Why release Veteran players you know are going to be signed somewhere else so early in the year that they can attend another teams entire offseason training program? Look at how close Sharper came to being a Jag player. Who is to say the the Colts won't pick up Glenn, cause they are in need of some good CB's there? Wouldn't it make more sense to hold these players as long as possible under contract and THEN let them go, since the net result will be exactly the same?

Vinny
04-26-2005, 03:59 PM
I think that the salary comes off 100% before June 1 and after june 1 we would have to absorb dead money next year. Don't quote me on that but I am checking it out.

PapaL
04-26-2005, 04:02 PM
Sounds right. Better to take the hit this year instead of next year.

clandestin
04-26-2005, 04:11 PM
I think that the salary comes off 100% before June 1 and after june 1 we would have to absorb dead money next year. Don't quote me on that but I am checking it out.

I'll quote you anyways, cause you've got it. Cuts prior to June 1st move all the remaining signing bonus on to the current years (2005) cap. When a player is cut after June 1st the remaining bonus money is divided in half. Half counts on the current year (2005), the other half counts on the next year's (2006's) cap. So we'll take the full hit from Sharper and Glenn on the 2005 cap, next year there will be no affect from their contract.

thegr8fan
04-26-2005, 04:13 PM
I think that the salary comes off 100% before June 1 and after june 1 we would have to absorb dead money next year. Don't quote me on that but I am checking it out. you are absolutely correct. So tell me, what is the difference in cutting them on May 31st and taking the salary hit, and cutting them in April and taking the hit. NOTHING. The net result is the same.

So why did we cut them NOW instead of later? that is the question I simply am not understanding the answer to.

wags
04-26-2005, 04:18 PM
So why did we cut them NOW instead of later? that is the question I simply am not understanding the answer to.

Because it is a classy move to cut the players now so they can land with a team.

thegr8fan
04-26-2005, 04:22 PM
Because it is a classy move to cut the players now so they can land with a team. please tell me you are being sarcastic and I just missed the tone?

they throw a fit about being replaced and we are going to be classy and fire them now instead of later? :hmmm: I just don't buy it. Cancer in the locker room? Perhaps. Just to be classy? No way.

KingRat
04-26-2005, 04:25 PM
you are absolutely correct. So tell me, what is the difference in cutting them on May 31st and taking the salary hit, and cutting them in April and taking the hit. NOTHING. The net result is the same.

So why did we cut them NOW instead of later? that is the question I simply am not understanding the answer to.

maybe we cut them now for the players' benefit, when we make deals with other players in the future they will know that our organization doesn't screw them around by keeping them around when the writing is on the wall. they will have an opportunity to land somewhere before it's too late, maybe?

wags
04-26-2005, 04:29 PM
please tell me you are being sarcastic and I just missed the tone?

they throw a fit about being replaced and we are going to be classy and fire them now instead of later? :hmmm: I just don't buy it. Cancer in the locker room? Perhaps. Just to be classy? No way.

Nope. Vinny posted this about Aaron's radio appearance:

Glenn was praising the Texans for allowing him to find a team after the Buchanon deal. He was very appreciative of our front office and I think he was afraid of being cut later in camp due to his high salary.

TheOgre
04-26-2005, 05:30 PM
I think that the salary comes off 100% before June 1 and after june 1 we would have to absorb dead money next year. Don't quote me on that but I am checking it out.

If you cut a player before June 1, then all of the dead money is immediately realized (in the current season).

If you cut a player after June 1, then you have to count any guaranteed money for that season plus the amount of the signing bonus that would have been prorated for that season. The rest of the dead money must be counted against the current season and/or the next season. You can divy it up between them if you like as long as it is all realized before the end of the next season.

Ex. Joe Linebacker signs a 6 year contract with a $6 million signing bonus and annual salaries of $4 million prior to the 2002 season. $1 million of his salary is guaranteed every season.

Scenario 1 - Joe is cut April 26th, 2005. The team has already prorated $3 million of his signing bonus ($1 million in each 2002-2004), so that leaves $3 million of signing bonus to count against the 2005 season. Joe also had guaranteed $1 million in 2005, 2006, and 2007 that needs to be accounted for all of which will be immediately felt. That makes the total dead money $6 million ($3 millon left of prorated signing bonus + $1 million guaranteed for 2005 + $1 million for 2006 + $1 million for 2007) felt in 2005.

Scenario 2 - Joe is cut June 2nd, 2005. The team has already prorated $3 million of his signing bonus ($1 million in each 2002-2004), so that leaves $1 million of signing bonus to count against the 2005 season. Joe had guaranteed money of $1 million for 2005, so they must count $2 million for 2005. The remaining $4 million ($2 million left after 2005 in prorated signing bonus + $1 million guaranteed in each 2006 and 2007) in dead money must be counted for by the end of 2006 but can count against either 2005 or 2006.

When we cut Boselli, Scenario 2 occurred (cut after June 1, 2003). We decided, however, to take the full brunt of it in 2003 instead of carrying any of it into 2004.

michaelm
04-26-2005, 05:32 PM
you are absolutely correct. So tell me, what is the difference in cutting them on May 31st and taking the salary hit, and cutting them in April and taking the hit. NOTHING. The net result is the same.

So why did we cut them NOW instead of later? that is the question I simply am not understanding the answer to.


You tell me why later and NOT now...?

utahmark
04-26-2005, 06:49 PM
If you cut a player before June 1, then all of the dead money is immediately realized (in the current season).

If you cut a player after June 1, then you have to count any guaranteed money for that season plus the amount of the signing bonus that would have been prorated for that season. The rest of the dead money must be counted against the current season and/or the next season. You can divy it up between them if you like as long as it is all realized before the end of the next season.

Ex. Joe Linebacker signs a 6 year contract with a $6 million signing bonus and annual salaries of $4 million prior to the 2002 season. $1 million of his salary is guaranteed every season.

Scenario 1 - Joe is cut April 26th, 2005. The team has already prorated $3 million of his signing bonus ($1 million in each 2002-2004), so that leaves $3 million of signing bonus to count against the 2005 season. Joe also had guaranteed $1 million in 2005, 2006, and 2007 that needs to be accounted for all of which will be immediately felt. That makes the total dead money $6 million ($3 millon left of prorated signing bonus + $1 million guaranteed for 2005 + $1 million for 2006 + $1 million for 2007) felt in 2005.

Scenario 2 - Joe is cut June 2nd, 2005. The team has already prorated $3 million of his signing bonus ($1 million in each 2002-2004), so that leaves $1 million of signing bonus to count against the 2005 season. Joe had guaranteed money of $1 million for 2005, so they must count $2 million for 2005. The remaining $4 million ($2 million left after 2005 in prorated signing bonus + $1 million guaranteed in each 2006 and 2007) in dead money must be counted for by the end of 2006 but can count against either 2005 or 2006.

When we cut Boselli, Scenario 2 occurred (cut after June 1, 2003). We decided, however, to take the full brunt of it in 2003 instead of carrying any of it into 2004.


no one gets a guaranteed salary. the signing bonus is the guaranteed part of the contract. this is more of a question than a bold statement.

thegr8fan
04-26-2005, 06:56 PM
You tell me why later and NOT now...? because when you count the bean pile it comes out exactly the same later as now. Because it means that another team might realize that they would be willing to make a trade for these players. Because it would give other teams time to have their rookie camps and decide that they need help at LB or CB cause the rookies just aren't picking it up as fast as they hoped. Because the end result might, possibly be exactly the same later as it is now, but all that will really have been lost is time. Time for Sharper and Glenn to acclimate to their new team and their new teams plays. Time for Sharper and Glenn to share some of their insider experience on how the Texans scheme for games. Time for Glenn and Sharper to work out the best deal possible for themselves. Time for the Texans to even change their minds and retain these players. Time for, God forbide, Buchanan or Greenwood to fall down a flight of stairs and break their leg and therefor make Sharper and Glenn a much needed commodity. :hmmm:

There are ALOT of reason to wait, there are very few, if any, for them to do it now, IMHO.

does it show alot of class by the Texans front office? ok, I will concede that point. I think it is a mistake still, IMHO. The NFL is a business and this sure isn't a business driven decision, IMHO.

utahmark
04-26-2005, 07:49 PM
being known as an orginization with class can only help us in the long run.

thegr8fan
04-26-2005, 07:58 PM
being known as an orginization with class can only help us in the long run. with who? The FA's? they are going for the money, mainly. Or their agents are. Their agents are going for the money AND the headlines if possible. Do you really think that somewhere down the road one of the players are going to turn down money cause they wanted to play for the Texans due to their reputation as being classy? PUUULLLEEEEZZE. These players know that the NFL stands for Not For Long and they had better grab all the Greenbacks they can WHILE they can.

Class for the fans. Yeah. The Fans seem to be just estatic over the Sharper and Glenn cuts being done with so much Class that has been shown. I can just see all the threads on here talking about what a Class act that was.

The 'you can never go wrong by doing what's right' motto of Bob McNair? That is the ONLY thing I can see actually applying here. I hope that he see's how right this is, when the Cowboys don't even spend a day taking Glenn. And Sharper was signed in about a week. Sure am glad those washed up has been, or never was type players got cut early in the year and the Texans did it with such CLASS.

are you kidding me? :thumbdown

rittenhouserobz
04-26-2005, 08:20 PM
If you cut a player before June 1, then all of the dead money is immediately realized (in the current season).

If you cut a player after June 1, then you have to count any guaranteed money for that season plus the amount of the signing bonus that would have been prorated for that season. The rest of the dead money must be counted against the current season and/or the next season. You can divy it up between them if you like as long as it is all realized before the end of the next season.

Ex. Joe Linebacker signs a 6 year contract with a $6 million signing bonus and annual salaries of $4 million prior to the 2002 season. $1 million of his salary is guaranteed every season.

Scenario 1 - Joe is cut April 26th, 2005. The team has already prorated $3 million of his signing bonus ($1 million in each 2002-2004), so that leaves $3 million of signing bonus to count against the 2005 season. Joe also had guaranteed $1 million in 2005, 2006, and 2007 that needs to be accounted for all of which will be immediately felt. That makes the total dead money $6 million ($3 millon left of prorated signing bonus + $1 million guaranteed for 2005 + $1 million for 2006 + $1 million for 2007) felt in 2005.

Scenario 2 - Joe is cut June 2nd, 2005. The team has already prorated $3 million of his signing bonus ($1 million in each 2002-2004), so that leaves $1 million of signing bonus to count against the 2005 season. Joe had guaranteed money of $1 million for 2005, so they must count $2 million for 2005. The remaining $4 million ($2 million left after 2005 in prorated signing bonus + $1 million guaranteed in each 2006 and 2007) in dead money must be counted for by the end of 2006 but can count against either 2005 or 2006.

When we cut Boselli, Scenario 2 occurred (cut after June 1, 2003). We decided, however, to take the full brunt of it in 2003 instead of carrying any of it into 2004.

Cutting Joe before June first would only be a cap hit of the remaining prorated bonus. The reamining salary is gone for the player and off the books for the team.

Cutting Joe after the June first allows the team to break up the remaining prorated bonus+incentives from previous year+any roster bonus for the 2005 season(The roster bonus date is usually dependent upon the date the contract was originally signed).

So by releasing Glenn, Sharper, and Foreman the Texans have prevented inflated caps numbers from soaring, because the players would not rework their deals to match their current impact on the team. In the end, nobody wins. The Texans lose veteran leadership and the players get less money.

utahmark
04-26-2005, 09:46 PM
with who? The FA's? they are going for the money, mainly. Or their agents are. Their agents are going for the money AND the headlines if possible. Do you really think that somewhere down the road one of the players are going to turn down money cause they wanted to play for the Texans due to their reputation as being classy? PUUULLLEEEEZZE. These players know that the NFL stands for Not For Long and they had better grab all the Greenbacks they can WHILE they can.

Class for the fans. Yeah. The Fans seem to be just estatic over the Sharper and Glenn cuts being done with so much Class that has been shown. I can just see all the threads on here talking about what a Class act that was.

The 'you can never go wrong by doing what's right' motto of Bob McNair? That is the ONLY thing I can see actually applying here. I hope that he see's how right this is, when the Cowboys don't even spend a day taking Glenn. And Sharper was signed in about a week. Sure am glad those washed up has been, or never was type players got cut early in the year and the Texans did it with such CLASS.

are you kidding me? :thumbdown

ok! pretend you are a player. you have a choice between two organizations. one team is known for being fair, treating there players with class. you talk to some of your boy's you know on the team and they tell you what a great place this is and you will be treated fair. next team just the opposite. the guys on this team tell you that you will get screwed first chance they get. where you gonna go?

outofhnd
04-26-2005, 10:09 PM
OK so if that holds true why are glenn and coleman still not members of the Jets secondary.

These Players are good but obviously have either lost a step, or are just above average starters at their position. Sure other teams are going to scoop them up quick.

But look at the difference in the amounts being paid there vs. If they stayed here. You do it with class so that while the employment market is busy they can get a job.

Again this is not the NFL we grew up with anymore. This is the business NFL players dont draft and retire with the same team like they used too. You have 2 choices in the business NFL. Build throught the draft and have more winning seasons. or You can build your team with a bunch of Big Name Free Agents and shoot for the superbowl and then deal with contracts.

teams that took the first choice
Patriots, Bengals, Steelers, Bills, Jaguars, Colts

Teams that took the second choice
Redskins, Raiders, Titans, Buccaneers, Dolphins, Cowboys

Im kinda like the fact we took the first choice compared to the teams that took choice 2

thegr8fan
04-26-2005, 10:49 PM
you talk to some of your boy's you know on the team and they tell you what a great place this is and you will be treated fair. next team just the opposite. the guys on this team tell you that you will get screwed first chance they get. where you gonna go

where am I gonna go? Well in the days of yesteryear, I would take the team with the most potential to get to the Superbowl or the one with the most Class that I enjoyed the comraderie of. HOWEVER, this ain't the Yesteryear generation. This IS the Salary Cap Generation. So I am going to the one that puts the biggest number first AND add's the most zero's after it. The salary of the players is what determines which team the player goes to. More specifically the size of the 'signing bonus' as this is the only guaranteed paycheck I am going to get. NOT the classyness of the organization. Now hypothetically if two teams offer the exact same deal, or close enough to not really matter, then yes, your argument holds water. Now how many FA's can you name that picked the team they ended up with due to CLASS and not Salary. That is why they have auctioneer's, commanly referred to as AGENTS, who put their FA player up on the auction block and start taking bids.

Should Glenn and even Sharper be very thankfull that the Texans allowed them the luxery of being released at a premium FA market time? You bet. Now anyone of you think that they are going to talk about that and NOT how they were replaced by other FA players when there was no definite need for it to happen. There really wasn't a team need to release Glenn. His salary cap hit as an active player wasn't much higher than his dead cap space. So WHY NOW? Why let a player who is not really going to hurt you salary cap wise much differently either way go? Why turn him into a FA when it doesn't do the team any good?

SheTexan
04-27-2005, 01:02 AM
Because it is a classy move to cut the players now so they can land with a team.

lol: lol: lol: lol:

and the jokes on US!!

texman8
04-27-2005, 05:19 AM
AG asked for his release; according to AG on 610 afternoon show (Tuesday) Texans wanted him to stay on. As someone said earlier, AG was probably afraid he would get cut; this way he can control his destiny.

aj.
04-27-2005, 07:48 AM
Not sure if it was also posted before, but AG said the Texans told him a while back that they might be looking at a corner in the draft. From what Aaron said, he would probably have stayed on if they brought in a rookie corner but when they got Buchanon, he decided not to take the reduced role here. Aaron was making it sound as if he couldn't beat out Faggins, much less Buchanon.

texasguy346
04-27-2005, 08:35 AM
Not sure if it was also posted before, but AG said the Texans told him a while back that they might be looking at a corner in the draft. From what Aaron said, he would probably have stayed on if they brought in a rookie corner but when they got Buchanon, he decided not to take the reduced role here. Aaron was making it sound as if he couldn't beat out Faggins, much less Buchanon.

I'm not sure if that's high praise for PB and Faggins, or if it indicates that Glenn feels he's not as good as he was a couple years ago. Interesting stuff.

Kaiser Toro
04-27-2005, 08:45 AM
Not sure if it was also posted before, but AG said the Texans told him a while back that they might be looking at a corner in the draft. From what Aaron said, he would probably have stayed on if they brought in a rookie corner but when they got Buchanon, he decided not to take the reduced role here. Aaron was making it sound as if he couldn't beat out Faggins, much less Buchanon.

If that is the case, then I am dancing more than ever before. Not so much for PB, but if that is AG's take on how much more improved Faggin's is it bodes extremely well for us.

TexanExile
04-27-2005, 09:17 AM
Or maybe it could be that he didn't mind a pupil rather than a rival.

TheOgre
04-27-2005, 11:04 AM
no one gets a guaranteed salary. the signing bonus is the guaranteed part of the contract. this is more of a question than a bold statement.

Drew Henson got guaranteed money on his contract. It is common but it does happen. It is especially true of big names. T.O. signed a bad contract with Philly. He is trying to get more of the money guaranteed on it.

JustBonee
04-27-2005, 11:47 AM
Glad I got to listen to Aaron Glenn's interview on 610 yesterday. He shed light on the situation very well.

AG asked for his release; according to AG on 610 afternoon show (Tuesday) Texans wanted him to stay on. As someone said earlier, AG was probably afraid he would get cut; this way he can control his destiny.
Yes ...

Not sure if it was also posted before, but AG said the Texans told him a while back that they might be looking at a corner in the draft. From what Aaron said, he would probably have stayed on if they brought in a rookie corner but when they got Buchanon, he decided not to take the reduced role here. Aaron was making it sound as if he couldn't beat out Faggins, much less Buchanon.
And yes .. It was classy of the Texans to move him and do it now.

Bayern
04-27-2005, 12:48 PM
After listening to Aaron Glenn on 610 Yesterday I'm convinced this was a good move for both Glenn and Houston. We get some money free, he goes to a "win now" team and stays close enough to home. Everyone is happy!

My question is really about the money we freed up by letting him go. I might be wrong but aren't we only suffering a million dollar cap hit with this release? If thats the case do you see Houston making another move for an available free agent with the extra dough?

michaelm
04-27-2005, 12:55 PM
I believe that all of the signing bonus he recieved had previously been spread out so that it impacted each year of his contract, cap wise. With his release, the total amout of the bonus counts against this years cap. The wisdom in the release of Sharper, Foreman, and AG is that all of their bonus money is accelerated onto this years cap where we have the room, and there will be no effect on our cap by any of their contracts after this season. We will benefit the most from the releases (cap-wise) next season.

infantrycak
04-27-2005, 12:56 PM
My question is really about the money we freed up by letting him go. I might be wrong but aren't we only suffering a million dollar cap hit with this release? If thats the case do you see Houston making another move for an available free agent with the extra dough?

The Texans are saving about 500K on the cap--Glenn was scheduled to make $4 mil which comes off the cap, but $3.5 mil of pro-rated signing bonus has to be accounted for as dead money on the cap for a net savings of 500K.