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View Full Version : Do Or Die For Carr


JfromthaTray
04-26-2005, 11:40 AM
Not addressing the O-Line this off season could lead to a long season for David Carr. We all know the sack totals were up from year 2 and we didn't upgrade the O-Line at all. The draft pick won't see the field much unless someone gets hurt. He can't continue to dump the ball off to DD although I can't blame him after all the hits he's taken. Carr will take more than his share of the blame if the line has another poor season, but thats the cost of being a 1st pick QB. Ragone is reportedly having a good season in Europe, but I don't think he's a long term answer. I hope the line play is vastly improved because if not, we are in big trouble. I am not suggesting we even take a second look at Matt Leinard, even if we had a chance to get him. Just look at the Heisman winning QB's over the years, they are cursed.

wiley2002
04-26-2005, 11:51 AM
But there seems to be something special about Matt Leinard. He has had a Cinderella career in football thus far. Any team will be lucky to have him.

Hervoyel
04-26-2005, 11:53 AM
The upgrade to the O-line will come in the form of improved play from the exact same players Pitts and Wand on the left will be in their second year together in their respective positions and they'll be better for it. On the right Weigert and Wade will also be in their second years together and, at least in theory they both should be healthy. In the middle McKinney will have Pitts and Weigert on either side of him for the second year in a row (third for Weigert). Overall I expect to see them play much better this season than last year.

People say all the time that the change to zone blocking in the running game didn't have an effect on pass protection but I don't think that's completely true. I think that our running game was unreliable last season and not all of that was on the line and their blocking. Domanick Davis had a real slow start after his 4 fumbles in two weeks to open the year and a poor running game can cause problems in pass protection by forcing the offense into obvious passing situations. This happened a lot last season.

JfromthaTray
04-26-2005, 11:55 AM
Maybe he will be the anomoly of the Heisman winning QB's, but you have to admit, they have had a hard time when it comes to the NFL

Toretta, Ward, Werfful, Crouch, White are a few examples.

JfromthaTray
04-26-2005, 12:00 PM
I didn't think that we had the type of players to change to a zone blocking scheme. Compared to the masters of the scheme, the Broncos, I thought that our linemen were too heavy for that. Denver has lighter linemen who can get to an area faster than our linemen and those extra pounds make a difference. DD didn't help either with the coughs. Hollings doesn't have the vision that DD has.

Tailgate
04-26-2005, 12:07 PM
So you are suggestion Carr will be done for good if the Oline doesnt improve this season? Not really sure of the point you are trying to make.

Lets consider a couple of things...How about same line together gelling after another year of experience? How about all that freed up cap room that we should have next year now to possibly address this in Free Agency next year? Supposedly the OLINE group is working harder in the offseason to get better and is MORE dedicated than ANY other group this of season.

The plays we made this offseason were circumstancial. We tried for Pace, and other draft picks or options just didnt work out for many different reasons.

JfromthaTray
04-26-2005, 12:19 PM
Not saying that he is completely done, but as I did state, the blame will fall on his shoulders, even if its not all his fault. And I did say Do or Die, I hope its do. But this is a forum and what better place to discuss these things.

wags
04-26-2005, 01:20 PM
Overall I expect to see them play much better this season than last year.

That won't be too hard to do. I expect David Duval to improve on his 78 stroke average this year also.

Texas_Thrill
04-26-2005, 03:33 PM
Just to state....Ward never played in the NFL so how can you put him in that list. :thumbdown

As for Heisman winning QB's i think we are seriously over blowing the situation. There have been some ones that were just great college qb's. Not everything translates into great nfl qb. Doesn't mean u judge a guy just b/c he won the dang heisman get a grip folks.

As for Carr I think (or rather hoping) that the increased continuity of the O-line will help improve them from no other standpoint than they know each other and know playing with each other. That said....KC D played with each other 2 years straight and well....we saw where they went this off-season.

I think the fact that we were going after Orlando Pace speaks volumes of how we feel about our O-line especially on carr's blindside. I'm shocked that we did NOTHING in the draft to address that other than a 4th rounder.

Maybe we are trying to get the 2nd pick in the draft next year to pick up ferguson out of UVA. I know if u can't win in the trenches the rest of it is a mute point.

Vinny
04-26-2005, 04:02 PM
I think it is absurd to call this a "do or die" year for Carr. Carr is going to be here for a long time. They have zero plans to seek out other QB help.

El Tejano
04-26-2005, 04:06 PM
I think if he doesn't show more promise this year though, we bring someone in just to show him his job isn't safe though.

axman40
04-26-2005, 06:04 PM
IMO killing QB's is just wrong!Ummm Okay!
:cool:

Grid
04-26-2005, 06:11 PM
I dont think Carr has anything to worry about this year.. or next year.... possibly in year 7 if he doesnt improve.

But he has improved every year so far.. so i have no idea where this thread is coming from :P.. way out of left field to be saying Carr is in a do or die year.

michaelm
04-26-2005, 06:17 PM
Latest in the long list of chicken-little-ish threads if you ask me...

SheTexan
04-26-2005, 06:27 PM
Latest in the long list of chicken-little-ish threads if you ask me...

You got that right!!

travelintexanfan
04-27-2005, 12:40 AM
What is everyones opinion onTravis Johnson? Never heard much about him until we drafted him.

CaptainPatriot
04-27-2005, 10:13 AM
The upgrade to the O-line will come in the form of improved play from the exact same players Pitts and Wand on the left will be in their second year together in their respective positions and they'll be better for it. On the right Weigert and Wade will also be in their second years together and, at least in theory they both should be healthy. In the middle McKinney will have Pitts and Weigert on either side of him for the second year in a row (third for Weigert). Overall I expect to see them play much better this season than last year.

People say all the time that the change to zone blocking in the running game didn't have an effect on pass protection but I don't think that's completely true. I think that our running game was unreliable last season and not all of that was on the line and their blocking. Domanick Davis had a real slow start after his 4 fumbles in two weeks to open the year and a poor running game can cause problems in pass protection by forcing the offense into obvious passing situations. This happened a lot last season.


I like your Theory but for example how can the PATS draft a 5th round center Dan Koppen and then a Pro Bowler go down before the playoffs G Damien Woody replaced by another 5th rounder G Russ Hochstein who hadn`t started all yr and dominate the D-Line of Carolina in the Super Bowl? Not only that they gave up no SACKS threw out the playoffs that yr. The PATS O-Line has a revolving door. They also loss Joe Andruzzi this off season. With FA there is not much time for jelling. Do you think it comes down to getting the right player to fit a paticular blocking scheme? Maybe it`s not the O-Linemen persay could be the scheme. Could it be the old clich`e putting a square peg in a round hole? Maybe the O-Line coach needs to reevaluate the scheme? Just a thought :hmmm:

Hervoyel
04-27-2005, 11:22 AM
The Pats offensive line had a stellar game against the Panthers. The worst Texans line ever in 2002 had a stellar game on opening night against the Cowboys. It happens. New England's got some great coaches and good linemen can be found in later rounds so it's not surprising that the Pats got some 5th rounders out there playing well for them.

32 teams in the league with 5 guys on each line you're talking about 160 linemen so you know that the majority of them aren't first rounders. Out of those 160 guys (and that's just the starters in any given year) you know that your higher round players are going to be tackles and I notice you're talking about guards and centers up there. Not that there aren't some G's and C's picked higher, just that on average you can find good guards later in the draft.

When we see the line stink it up in run blocking this year I'll start to wonder if we've got the wrong people (or wrong coaches) to do the zone blocking thing. At the moment I'm inclined to believe that it's a matter of starting guys too soon (Wand), moving guys (Pitts), and bringing in new guys (Wade) plus some injuries (Wade for example) while trying to change the basics (run blocking scheme). Too much change at once in other words.

People say often that the zone blocking had nothing to do with pass protection last season and that changing to a new scheme doesn't explain what happened to the pass protection. I say bull to that.

An ineffective running game that consistently puts you in obvious passing situations can do more damage to pass protection than many people are willing to admit. That's what our team had last year for much of the season, an ineffective running game. Sure DD got his 1K but at times he was useless. At those times it was like 2002 all over again. The defense just pinned their ears back and came after Carr.

We had just seen that same thing two years before so I don't know why nobody seems to recognize it now. No running game means your QB is dead meat 90% of the time.

TexansNeedRBin05
04-27-2005, 11:24 AM
We had just seen that same thing two years before so I don't know why nobody seems to recognize it now. No running game means your QB is dead meat 90% of the time.

AMEN BROTHER! :thumbup

BuffSoldier
04-27-2005, 11:39 AM
The Texans may not have selected a offensive lineman early in this years draft, but even if they did, who would have come in and start as a rookie anyway, Barron, Bass(maybe). ID we drafted a O-lineman it would be for depth purposes anyway, and thats what we got in the 4th, a depth player that can play gaurd and center.
I think we did help Carr, just not in obviouse ways.
We got the top DT in the draft and hopefully he will help keep the defense off the field and the offense on. We also added Buchanan to do the same.
Dont forget about Jerome Mathis, this guy ran a 4.28 40 yard dashto secure his spot as the fastest player at the combine, we resigned Bradford and with the hopeful improvement of Derrick Armstrong, that makes us very deep, if not very strong at WR.
We got another good RB with our 3 rounder and that will do us some good if DD should go down again this year. We would not have to force Carr to pass with the added RB depth.

Carr will be fine, with the impovement of his o-line from last season plus the improvement of his supporting cast, Carr should improve himself.

Oh yeah, and remember that through teh first 4 games of last season Carr was 2nd in the AFC in passing yards and 4th in passer rating which proves that the o-line can protect when healthy, they just need to play more consistently.

Fletch
04-27-2005, 11:42 AM
And its extremely hard to run the ball behind a crappy line! On the flipside you can make a marginal RB core look brilliant if you have a solid line opening up holes.

The worst aspect of the Texans has always been the o-line. And, weve consistently done nothing about it. While i understand the popular party line is "let them gel"...a loser is a loser, and i see nothing about this squad that shows promise. The upside is we cant get much worse so there is only room for improvement.

As for Carr, he isnt in a "do or die" year. In fact considering the line/rb situation hes been dealt thus far he has done very well.

infantrycak
04-27-2005, 12:13 PM
The worst aspect of the Texans has always been the o-line. And, weve consistently done nothing about it.

I don't understand how anyone who has been a Texans fan these last three years can make this kind of statement. From 2002 to 2003 three OL starters were replaced. From 2003 to 2004, once again three OL starters were either brought in or put in a new position, plus the zone blocking was instituted. Unless the only thing that doesn't count as nothing is bringing in 5 new guys every off-season, the Texans certainly have acted on the OL. I am sure they are very dissappointed in the immediate impact of all those changes, but it is pretty darn clear from this off-season that they see greater gains this year from not mucking around with everything for the 3rd off-season in a row.

CaptainPatriot
04-27-2005, 06:45 PM
The Pats offensive line had a stellar game against the Panthers. The worst Texans line ever in 2002 had a stellar game on opening night against the Cowboys. It happens. New England's got some great coaches and good linemen can be found in later rounds so it's not surprising that the Pats got some 5th rounders out there playing well for them.

32 teams in the league with 5 guys on each line you're talking about 160 linemen so you know that the majority of them aren't first rounders. Out of those 160 guys (and that's just the starters in any given year) you know that your higher round players are going to be tackles and I notice you're talking about guards and centers up there. Not that there aren't some G's and C's picked higher, just that on average you can find good guards later in the draft.

When we see the line stink it up in run blocking this year I'll start to wonder if we've got the wrong people (or wrong coaches) to do the zone blocking thing. At the moment I'm inclined to believe that it's a matter of starting guys too soon (Wand), moving guys (Pitts), and bringing in new guys (Wade) plus some injuries (Wade for example) while trying to change the basics (run blocking scheme). Too much change at once in other words.

People say often that the zone blocking had nothing to do with pass protection last season and that changing to a new scheme doesn't explain what happened to the pass protection. I say bull to that.

An ineffective running game that consistently puts you in obvious passing situations can do more damage to pass protection than many people are willing to admit. That's what our team had last year for much of the season, an ineffective running game. Sure DD got his 1K but at times he was useless. At those times it was like 2002 all over again. The defense just pinned their ears back and came after Carr.

We had just seen that same thing two years before so I don't know why nobody seems to recognize it now. No running game means your QB is dead meat 90% of the time.


Very well said :thumbup nothing like a 3rd and long! Don`t forget the false starts 2. I think with the O-Line it is more of a mental issue than anything.

CaptainPatriot
04-27-2005, 07:11 PM
The Texans may not have selected a offensive lineman early in this years draft, but even if they did, who would have come in and start as a rookie anyway, Barron, Bass(maybe). ID we drafted a O-lineman it would be for depth purposes anyway, and thats what we got in the 4th, a depth player that can play gaurd and center.
I think we did help Carr, just not in obviouse ways.
We got the top DT in the draft and hopefully he will help keep the defense off the field and the offense on. We also added Buchanan to do the same.
Dont forget about Jerome Mathis, this guy ran a 4.28 40 yard dashto secure his spot as the fastest player at the combine, we resigned Bradford and with the hopeful improvement of Derrick Armstrong, that makes us very deep, if not very strong at WR.
We got another good RB with our 3 rounder and that will do us some good if DD should go down again this year. We would not have to force Carr to pass with the added RB depth.

Carr will be fine, with the impovement of his o-line from last season plus the improvement of his supporting cast, Carr should improve himself.

Oh yeah, and remember that through teh first 4 games of last season Carr was 2nd in the AFC in passing yards and 4th in passer rating which proves that the o-line can protect when healthy, they just need to play more consistently.


Maybe for the next cpl of yrs Texans should draft O-line and D-line men 1st and 2nd rounds respectfully to build up a base? I went back and looked at the PATS Draft last cpl of yrs. They have drafted a DT in the 1st round 3 of 4 yrs! Plus picking up FA DT`s.They now have DT`s coming out their ears. Remember when Seymour (Pro Bowler)went down before the playoffs and Jarvis Green replaced him. PATS didn`t miss a beat. Just a thought :hmmm:

On Mathis speed is great but does he have football skills? IE:Can he block, go over the middle?

As for Carr being high in the ratings the 1st 4 games. 3 of the 4 games were against KC,OAK and DETROIT. Those teams had weak D`s.

CaptainPatriot
04-27-2005, 07:30 PM
Do or Die for Wand is more like it.
good point :thumbup

thunderkyss
04-21-2006, 10:00 AM
The upgrade to the O-line will come in the form of improved play from the exact same players Pitts and Wand on the left will be in their second year together in their respective positions and they'll be better for it. On the right Weigert and Wade will also be in their second years together and, at least in theory they both should be healthy. In the middle McKinney will have Pitts and Weigert on either side of him for the second year in a row (third for Weigert). Overall I expect to see them play much better this season than last year.



ooo......... yuk....... this sounds aweful familiar........

I don't understand how anyone who has been a Texans fan these last three years can make this kind of statement. From 2002 to 2003 three OL starters were replaced. From 2003 to 2004, once again three OL starters were either brought in or put in a new position, plus the zone blocking was instituted. Unless the only thing that doesn't count as nothing is bringing in 5 new guys every off-season, the Texans certainly have acted on the OL. I am sure they are very dissappointed in the immediate impact of all those changes, but it is pretty darn clear from this off-season that they see greater gains this year from not mucking around with everything for the 3rd off-season in a row.

Yeah...... you're right.......... we've done far from nothing.......

Maybe for the next cpl of yrs Texans should draft O-line and D-line men 1st and 2nd rounds respectfully to build up a base? I went back and looked at the PATS Draft last cpl of yrs. They have drafted a DT in the 1st round 3 of 4 yrs! Plus picking up FA DT`s.They now have DT`s coming out their ears. Remember when Seymour (Pro Bowler)went down before the playoffs and Jarvis Green replaced him. PATS didn`t miss a beat. Just a thought :hmmm:


That is a thought.......

Runner
04-21-2006, 10:08 AM
ooo......... yuk....... this sounds aweful familiar........

......

Sure it sounds awful familiar, but they didn't do it last year and line play suffered as a result.

They made one change, and the line got worse. Feel free to ignore this; most people do because it goes against deeply held opinions.

Napa Auto Parts
04-22-2006, 07:45 PM
i dont think this is do or die for Carr since this is a new system i think we should give David another 4/5 years to pick up this new offense:stirpot:

HJam72
04-22-2006, 10:11 PM
i dont think this is do or die for Carr since this is a new system i think we should give David another 4/5 years to pick up this new offense:stirpot:

This thread is a year old. I think Thunderkyss dug it up, but I'm not too sure why.

thegr8fan
04-23-2006, 09:14 AM
I don't know why he did either, but the reality is, though DC had yet another sub par year, scratch that, an even WORSE year than previous one's, he still gets another 3 yr contract. :ok:

so I guess it wasn't DC's 'do or die year' afterall. :rolleyes:

It was pretty funny reading back through it though and seeing all the Carr Homer's predicting Carr's breakout year going to happen............NOT. :stirpot:

HoustonFan
04-23-2006, 09:34 AM
I'm hoping that he picks the new system up much faster. Especially since the HC is offensive minded. As a fan I see them making big improvements and even having a winning season. Saban and the Dolphins had a winning season, and that was his first season w/ them. True you can't really compare Kubiak and Saban since this is Kubiak's first season as a head coach. But it could still happen.

The offseason, IMO, has been more exciting thatn the draft - though the speculation of the draft has it's moments.