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View Full Version : Remember when we hated our pass defense?


Lady.Gaga.3000
11-04-2011, 04:15 PM
Well statistically New England is worse than we were last year so far. Found this on ESPN:

"Whereas New England's defense typically has been one of the league's most reliable units, this season it has been anything but.
New England now ranks last in the NFL in total defense and pass defense. Through seven games, New England has allowed 2,969 total yards, which is the fourth-worst defensive performance since the merger in 1970. The only teams that have allowed more yards through seven games were the 2002 Chiefs (3,087 yards), the 1976 Chiefs (3,058) and the 2005 49ers (2,991)."

The Patriots are 5-2 through 7 games. They have played one gimme game the first week @ Miami. After that, they have played the Charger, @ Bills, @ Raiders, Jets, Cowboys, and @ Steelers.

I would say the only game they truly lost because of their pass defense was the 34-31 loss at Buffalo. New England was up 21-0 and seemed to stop playing after that. (Sound familiar?)

You can probably tell where I am going with this in relation to last year. We had what seemed like the worst pass defense since sliced bread was invented.

The only playoff teams the Texans beat last year were the Colts (who destroyed us in the rematch) and Chiefs (Where we got that nice no-call from the refs on Andre Johnson's TD catch). However, a win is a win and a loss is a loss, so I must ask why the Patriots are winning with a horible pass defense and why were the Texans losing with a horrible pass defense, aka our favorite scapegoat of 2010. Is there a deeper problem in this team than CB #2-4 or WR #2-5?

badboy
11-04-2011, 04:23 PM
I remember & it was justified too. Speaking of Justified, when does that program come back on?

thunderkyss
11-04-2011, 04:58 PM
I was screaming this last season. Sure, the defense was bad. But the offense was supposed to be elite. However, we couldn't score efficiently or when it mattered. We couldn't keep opposing offenses off the field.

The Giants game was what? 24-3 at halftime? Defensively we started the third qtr with three back to back turnovers. The game should have been 24-24 to start the 4th Qtr. But we only scored on one of those turnovers. 27-10. We didn't score another point the whole game.

If you've got a truly elite offense, you don't go three & out very often & your drives end with a minimum of 3 points most of the time.

An elite offense can make up for a horrendous defense. The greatest show on turf did it in the 90s, the Colts did it through the first decade of the 21st century.

We don't have an elite offense... our HC wasn't helping us any either.

Texans_Chick
11-04-2011, 05:08 PM
New England's defense was bad last year too. They were able to hide it some because their offense was so absurdly good.

Late in the season, their defense started to get it together near the end of the season so they weren't so catastrophic. But they have talent issues right now that I'm not sure coaching can fix.

Lurvinator11
11-04-2011, 08:46 PM
I remember & it was justified too. Speaking of Justified, when does that program come back on?

It should come back on in februray. I love that show!

LikeMike
11-05-2011, 07:37 AM
I don`t have stats to back that up, but I think that the Patriots D is much better than our last years D in both run defense and turnovers. Winning the turnover battle is huge, and being able to stop the team on 3d and shorts as well.

Marcus
11-05-2011, 09:39 AM
Remember when we didn't have a pass rush?

Oh wait ......

If you don't have a pass rush, the pass defense is going to suck.
If you have a pass rush, then you have pass defense.

Isn't it amazing how that works? :rolleyes:

thunderkyss
11-05-2011, 11:59 AM
Remember when we didn't have a pass rush?

Oh wait ......

If you don't have a pass rush, the pass defense is going to suck.
If you have a pass rush, then you have pass defense.

Isn't it amazing how that works? :rolleyes:

That's a simple way of looking at things. Mostly correct.

At the same time, your pass defense has to keep the ball in the QB hands for more than 2.6 seconds. Pass rush makes for pass defense, but pass coverage makes for a pass rush.

The Pencil Neck
11-05-2011, 12:10 PM
I don`t have stats to back that up, but I think that the Patriots D is much better than our last years D in both run defense and turnovers. Winning the turnover battle is huge, and being able to stop the team on 3d and shorts as well.

OK. I just decided to throw a bunch of stats together. I decided to compare the 2011 Pats, the 2011 Texans, and the 2010 Texans. Now, it's kind of a mixed bag because the Pats have played 7 games, we've played 8, and of course, there were 16 last year.

You specifically asked about run defense, turnovers, and 3rd downs.

The 2011 Texans allow only 97.4 yards per game but that's a bit of sleight of hand. We're allowing 4.3 yards per carry. Our rush defense looks good because we're forcing people to pass. The 2011 Patriots are allowing 101 yards per game and they're also allowing 4.3 yards per carry. The 2010 Texans allowed more yards per game (109.4) but we only gave up 4.0 yards per carry. So the 2011 Texans were more stout against the run BUT probably because we were behind, people were pounding the rock on us to chew up time.

The 2011 Texans get 0.5 fumbles per game and 1.25 interceptions per game. The Patriots get 0.57 fumbles per game and 1.29 interceptions per game. The 2010 Texans were teh suck, getting only 0.31 fumbles per game and only 0.81 interceptions per game. Those turnover stats can have a huge impact on a game. We've improved but it would be nice to get better at those stats.

The 2011 Texans allow a 1st down on 32% of 3rd downs. That's really good and ties us for 3rd in the league with the Jets. The 2010 Texans allowed a 1st down on 40% of 3rd downs -- tied for 23rd. The 2011 Patriots allow a 1st down on 46 percent of 3rd downs, that's 30th in the league. So the Patriots are worse at getting teams off the field than we were last year and last year, we weren't great.

Another thing I looked at was the number of touchdown passes allowed per interception. The 2011 Patriots allow 1.3 TDs for every interception. The 2010 Texans allowed a HORRIBLE 2.5 TDs per interception. The 2011 Texans are only allowing 0.9 TD's per interception.

So, to answer the question, the Pats D is better at getting turnovers than our team was last year. It's worse against the run but so far, that weakness against the run has been shielded.

Marcus
11-05-2011, 01:09 PM
That's a simple way of looking at things. Mostly correct.

At the same time, your pass defense has to keep the ball in the QB hands for more than 2.6 seconds. Pass rush makes for pass defense, but pass coverage makes for a pass rush.

I have always fundamentally disagreed with that, because it's, well .... for the lack of better words .... bassackwards.

If you don't get pressure on the QB, it doesn't really matter if the secondary is full of Pro-Bowlers. If you allow that QB to stand back there unpressured, eventually he will find someone open, no matter how good the coverage is from the secondary.

By the same token, if the QB is constantly being pressured, hurried, and sacked by by a good pass rush, the secondary doesn't need to be all that good. What goes on upfront, in the trenches, determines how good the secondary will play, or rather, it will determine how easy, or how hard of job the secondary has.

ArlingtonTexan
11-05-2011, 01:13 PM
Well, yeah now there is only some hate for our 2nd/3rd corners and that depends who is talking and who is being talked about.

thunderkyss
11-05-2011, 01:21 PM
I have always fundamentally disagreed with that, because it's, well .... for the lack of better words .... bassackwards.

If you don't get pressure on the QB, it doesn't really matter if the secondary is full of Pro-Bowlers. If you allow that QB to stand back there unpressured, eventually he will find someone open, no matter how good the coverage is from the secondary.

By the same token, if the QB is constantly being pressured, hurried, and sacked by by a good pass rush, the secondary doesn't need to be all that good. What goes on upfront, in the trenches, determines how good the secondary will play, or rather, it will determine how easy, or how hard of job the secondary has.

I agree completely, but your pass coverage has to allow time for the pass rush to get to the QB. If the QB is allowed to go to his first read every time, then no matter how good the rush, it won't ever get there.

Rookie QBs can come in to the game & look like HOFers, because he's not having to go through his progression, first read & dunk works well against poor pass coverage & the pass rush is a non-factor.

But it is true, like you said, no coverage can hold up for too long.

So it's got to be good enough to hold for just under 3 seconds... say 2.8 and your pass rush has got to get there within 4 seconds.

Vs Tennessee, Hasselbeck threw the ball in the dirt twice, because the coverage was too good & the pass rush would have got to him if he hadn't got rid of it. The pass rush didn't affect his decision as much as the tight coverage, in years prior, Hasselbeck would have eaten us alive.

The Pencil Neck
11-05-2011, 04:30 PM
I have always fundamentally disagreed with that, because it's, well .... for the lack of better words .... bassackwards.

If you don't get pressure on the QB, it doesn't really matter if the secondary is full of Pro-Bowlers. If you allow that QB to stand back there unpressured, eventually he will find someone open, no matter how good the coverage is from the secondary.

By the same token, if the QB is constantly being pressured, hurried, and sacked by by a good pass rush, the secondary doesn't need to be all that good. What goes on upfront, in the trenches, determines how good the secondary will play, or rather, it will determine how easy, or how hard of job the secondary has.

Actually, it's not.

If you've got a bunch of defensive backs that give a 10-15 yard cushion or who can't cover their man for a couple of seconds, then the QB can beat the rush. You could have the best pass rush in the world but if there aren't any DBs covering anyone, the QB will just hit short pass after pass. Or if the DBs miss their jams, the WRs can run right past them and the QB can put the ball out there and let them run under it.

If you've got great coverage, it gives your rush more time to get there. That's why you sometimes see QBs sitting back there looking for a reciever, checking this route, and this route, and this route, and then they're sacked. Similarly, a defense can drop 8 and rush 3 and if those 8 can blanket the receivers, that 3 man rush can sometimes work its way to the QB and get the sack.

Great pass defense is all about mixing up whether you're relying on the rush or relying on the DBs and having the option to go either way. You can go 0 coverage and bring the house to get to the QB as quickly as possible BUT your DBs have to get up and take away the short passes for it to work. Or you can drop everyone back and just rush a couple of guys and take away all receivers. Or you can do stuff in between.

hradhak
11-05-2011, 04:59 PM
I think one thing that has exacerbated the "worst pass defense" moniker is that teams are throwing a lot more than they have in the past. This year it's even more than last year, but the trend is towards much more throwing.

Even so, it's good to see that Wade Phillips was able to turn it around so quickly, with no offseason to speak of. It seems like as our personnel gets more familiar with the playbook, we will get better on defense.

badboy
11-05-2011, 08:11 PM
Can we turn this into a Kareem Jackson thread?

thunderkyss
11-05-2011, 08:15 PM
Can we turn this into a Kareem Jackson thread?

Kareem Jackson is starting on the #3 defense in the league......


How was that?
:kitten:

ADTpaul
11-06-2011, 01:06 AM
He did come from the best of conferences, the SEC. Man his alma mater, Alabama played a great game against LSU tonight, but lost 9 to 6 in OT. Crazy score eh? All field goals!

Quick II Draw
11-06-2011, 01:25 AM
... why the Patriots are winning with a horible pass defense and why were the Texans losing with a horrible pass defense ...

Tom Brady

/thread

TejasTom
11-06-2011, 08:34 AM
I remember & it was justified too. Speaking of Justified, when does that program come back on?

Great show, almost as good as our defense. I looked earlier this week on the show website and there was nothing about the date for season 3 yet.