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View Full Version : Cushing gets the Publicity, but is Joseph the real Defensive MVP ?


IDEXAN
11-03-2011, 09:36 AM
Brian Cushing has been tremendous in leading the team in tackles. Connor Barwin has been consistent from start to finish. Rookie Brooks Reed has improved since being forced into the starting lineup. DeMeco Ryans should have a better second half now that he’ll get more playing time. They’ve overcome the loss of Mario Williams, who still leads the team with five sacks.
**
Johnathan Joseph has become a shutdown corner. He’s tied for the team lead with Jason Allen with three interceptions each. Despite the criticism directed at Kareem Jackson, he can’t be too bad considering opponents are completing only 50.8 percent and have a rating of 65.9. Glover Quin has been excellent at strong safety. Brice McCain has played well as the nickel corner. Danieal Manning was playing well until he was injured. Watch his replacement, Troy Nolan, start to make plays.
http://blog.chron.com/nfl/2011/11/texans-mid-season-report-card/
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We all like Brian Cushing, and he gets a lot of print including story-themes and
photos in the local Houston paper. Hey he's a real hard-hitting, hustling guy who's very animated, but inside LB is a virtual second-tier defensive position even just within the LB corp of the 3-4 defense.
Now CB is another story, and according to local NFL journalist John McClain Joseph is a "shutdown corner". I don't know, have the Texans ever had
a "shutdown corner" ? That's a rare breed, and oh so critically important to a team like the Texans and it's rejuvenated defense.

HOU-TEX
11-03-2011, 09:45 AM
Brian Cushing has been tremendous in leading the team in tackles. Connor Barwin has been consistent from start to finish. Rookie Brooks Reed has improved since being forced into the starting lineup. DeMeco Ryans should have a better second half now that he’ll get more playing time. They’ve overcome the loss of Mario Williams, who still leads the team with five sacks.
**
Johnathan Joseph has become a shutdown corner. He’s tied for the team lead with Jason Allen with three interceptions each. Despite the criticism directed at Kareem Jackson, he can’t be too bad considering opponents are completing only 50.8 percent and have a rating of 65.9. Glover Quin has been excellent at strong safety. Brice McCain has played well as the nickel corner. Danieal Manning was playing well until he was injured. Watch his replacement, Troy Nolan, start to make plays.
http://blog.chron.com/nfl/2011/11/texans-mid-season-report-card/
****
We all like Brian Cushing, and he gets a lot of print including story-themes and
photos in the local Houston paper. Hey he's a real hard-hitting, hustling guy who's very animated, but inside LB is a virtual second-tier defensive position even just within the LB corp of the 3-4 defense.
Now CB is another story, and according to local NFL journalist John McClain Joseph is a "shutdown corner". I don't know, have the Texans ever had
a "shutdown corner" ? That's a rare breed, and oh so critically important to a team like the Texans and it's rejuvenated defense.

That's incorrect. The ILB's are very important in the 3-4. Actually, a 3-4 defense ain't diddly without good ILB's. They're key positions in the run game.

And, I like J-Jo a lot, but the secondary has been spoiled with a decent pass rush this season. The front 7 of a defense will always lead to the success or failure of a secondary. To me it's obvious. When our D allows the QB time in the pocket, our DB's get beat a lot. When we get hits on the QB, the DB's have a much better chance with a antsy/jittery QB.

76Texan
11-03-2011, 10:08 AM
That's incorrect. The ILB's are very important in the 3-4. Actually, a 3-4 defense ain't diddly without good ILB's. They're key positions in the run game.

And, I like J-Jo a lot, but the secondary has been spoiled with a decent pass rush this season. The front 7 of a defense will always lead to the success or failure of a secondary. To me it's obvious. When our D allows the QB time in the pocket, our DB's get beat a lot. When we get hits on the QB, the DB's have a much better chance with a antsy/jittery QB.

I agree whole-heartedly.

As far as big plays go, they both brought it.

JJo made a few iffy mistakes (including in run support) that took away a few points for him (in my mind).
Otherwise, I would have had JJo ahead of Cushing.

Vinny
11-03-2011, 10:48 AM
That's incorrect. The ILB's are very important in the 3-4. Actually, a 3-4 defense ain't diddly without good ILB's. They're key positions in the run game.

And, I like J-Jo a lot, but the secondary has been spoiled with a decent pass rush this season. The front 7 of a defense will always lead to the success or failure of a secondary. To me it's obvious. When our D allows the QB time in the pocket, our DB's get beat a lot. When we get hits on the QB, the DB's have a much better chance with a antsy/jittery QB.Yeah, that statement is moronic, but look at who's giving the "analysis". Dude's been watching football for 5 decades and still doesn't know any more than what people tell him. The KEY to Wade's defense is the front 7 and the ability to take away the run without the S helping out. That said, JJ is very important. A legit CB1 is a must have for every team in the league. It's about time we had one.

Double Barrel
11-03-2011, 11:00 AM
"Shutdown corner" is such an overused phrase. The only guy that I can remember actually being shutdown - where the offense doesn't even throw to his side of the field - is Deion Sanders. And nobody has even been close to his level since his heyday.

There are still a lot of good corners in the NFL, but if Deion is the benchmark for being a so-called "shutdown corner", I have yet to see anyone grab that torch and run with it.

I think the new rules about receivers will ultimately make the front seven more important than ever. A solid, consistent pass rush will be the key to stopping passing games. Secondaries are so burdened with these asinine changes that "going across the middle" for a WR is no longer something to be feared. These rules are slowly morphing the NFL into arena league football. So having a front 7 that can get to the QB before he releases the ball will be more important than ever. Cushing is a HUGE part of our front 7. McClain, once again, shows his ignorance about the most fundamental aspects of the sport he pretends to cover.

Scooter
11-03-2011, 11:03 AM
i think we cant have one without the other. cushing is able to blitz more often and more effectively because we have a stud behind him holding up the DB's. likewise, cushing is a big part of the pass rush as well as the key in run support, making Jo's job a whole heck of a lot easier.

sakebomb
11-03-2011, 12:28 PM
The KEY to Wade's defense

Wade is the real MVP.

GlassHalfFull
11-03-2011, 12:37 PM
Now CB is another story, and according to local NFL journalist John McClain ...........

stopped reading there.

:yawn:


Houston deserves a real sports journalist as much as it deserves a real defense. The Texans did their part, time for the Chron to step up their game.

I don't like to see "best" thrown around when talking about players playing different positions. As in who is our "best defensive player". Cushing and Jo Jo are both doing their jobs exceptionally well, as are other players on our defense. No reason to crown one guy, they are playing great as a unit and doing their respective jobs. :defense:

badboy
11-03-2011, 02:15 PM
I am a DB guy and Joseph is good but he is not a shut down corner at least not yet. A lot of passes he has defended were bad throws by QB. Cushing over Joseph imo; just glad both are on the team.

silvrhand
11-03-2011, 02:24 PM
"Shutdown corner" is such an overused phrase. The only guy that I can remember actually being shutdown - where the offense doesn't even throw to his side of the field - is Deion Sanders. And nobody has even been close to his level since his heyday.

There are still a lot of good corners in the NFL, but if Deion is the benchmark for being a so-called "shutdown corner", I have yet to see anyone grab that torch and run with it.



+1 rep..

Thank you.. finally someone that said it.. the reason that QB's didn't throw at Deion wans't the fact that he had him covered it was the fact that he was so good he could bait you into throwing at him and he could close in and still get the interception..

Deion was simply ridiculous..

IDEXAN
11-03-2011, 03:10 PM
That's incorrect. The ILB's are very important in the 3-4. Actually, a 3-4 defense ain't diddly without good ILB's. They're key positions in the run game.

The premiere position among 3-4 LBs is OLB because that's where the primary pass-rush is derived. With the exception of Patrick Willis (who is indeed a great football player), few steller performers make their living on the inside, but among OLBs the names of elite players are lengthy: Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews, Terrel Suggs, LaMar Woodly, Mario williams (for a short time), and so on and and so forth.
In positional value, draft-value, free-agency value the ILBs are subordinate to OLBs. Anybody who doesn't know that is uninformed about the 3-4, because the 3-4 defense (or any defense for that matter) is diddly without competant pass-rushers.

Double Barrel
11-03-2011, 03:36 PM
The Ravens run a hybrid 3-4. Ray Lewis

The Steelers run a 3-4. James Harrison

The Packers run a 3-4. A.J. Hawk

The Redskins run a 3-4. London Fletcher

Kthx
11-03-2011, 03:50 PM
Apples get all the publicity but are Oranges the real fruit MVP?

House of Pain
11-03-2011, 03:57 PM
"Shutdown corner" is such an overused phrase. The only guy that I can remember actually being shutdown - where the offense doesn't even throw to his side of the field - is Deion Sanders. And nobody has even been close to his level since his heyday.

There are still a lot of good corners in the NFL, but if Deion is the benchmark for being a so-called "shutdown corner", I have yet to see anyone grab that torch and run with it.

I think the new rules about receivers will ultimately make the front seven more important than ever. A solid, consistent pass rush will be the key to stopping passing games. Secondaries are so burdened with these asinine changes that "going across the middle" for a WR is no longer something to be feared. These rules are slowly morphing the NFL into arena league football. So having a front 7 that can get to the QB before he releases the ball will be more important than ever. Cushing is a HUGE part of our front 7. McClain, once again, shows his ignorance about the most fundamental aspects of the sport he pretends to cover.

I don't care what you say, making movies is NOT a sport.

Vinny
11-03-2011, 04:05 PM
The premiere position among 3-4 LBs is OLB because that's where the primary pass-rush is derived. With the exception of Patrick Willis (who is indeed a great football player), few steller performers make their living on the inside, but among OLBs the names of elite players are lengthy: Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews, Terrel Suggs, LaMar Woodly, Mario williams (for a short time), and so on and and so forth.
In positional value, draft-value, free-agency value the ILBs are subordinate to OLBs. Anybody who doesn't know that is uninformed about the 3-4, because the 3-4 defense (or any defense for that matter) is diddly without competant pass-rushers.well, we don't have a big time edge rusher right now. Barwin is a linear straight line guy who doesn't really bring it like the big time edge guys do. Reed is a work in progress, but really not anywhere close to elite right now.

That said, I agree that you need some good OLB's to really play this d right, but its a team game and if you don't have something in the middle thumping players and forcing the plays to the guys setting the edge, you don't have squat. Jack or otherwise.

IDEXAN
11-03-2011, 04:25 PM
The Ravens run a hybrid 3-4. Ray Lewis

The Steelers run a 3-4. James Harrison

The Packers run a 3-4. A.J. Hawk

The Redskins run a 3-4. London Fletcher
Harrison is an edge guy in Pittsburgh, and I'm comfortable in saying that today Terril Suggs is more valuable to his team than Lewis.
Regarding Hawk & Fletcher, my thought is that neither are viewed as elite players, but perhaps I'm mistaken about that ?

Kthx
11-03-2011, 04:31 PM
I think Hawk is regarded as elite to the people who pay attention the most in GB but he sorta gets thrown on the backburner when there are people like Matthews and Woodson.

Vinny
11-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Harrison is an edge guy in Pittsburgh, and I'm comfortable in saying that today Terril Suggs is more valuable to his team than Lewis.
Regarding Hawk & Fletcher, my thought is that neither are viewed as elite players, but perhaps I'm mistaken about that ?
Fletcher is elite but old, Hawk is a good player. Lawrence Timmons is the thumper inside for the Steelers and is a beast. He is replacing Harrison while he is injured.

Lewis is old and Suggs is still in his prime, so that isn't a good comparison right now. I'd say Suggs is easier to replace than Lewis long term...Lewis is a HOF player and the glue to that defense. No way that team has that elite a defense all these years without Lewis and his sideline to sideline presence....much like Cushing is doing now. Suggs is a top player too, but not the player Lewis has been over the years.

Double Barrel
11-03-2011, 05:04 PM
Harrison is an edge guy in Pittsburgh, and I'm comfortable in saying that today Terril Suggs is more valuable to his team than Lewis.
Regarding Hawk & Fletcher, my thought is that neither are viewed as elite players, but perhaps I'm mistaken about that ?

ooops, meant to say Lawrence Timmons instead of Harrison.

Thanks to Vinny for the correction.

My main point was to counter your statment, "few steller performers make their living on the inside", simply because an outside pass rush is pointless if the offense can run freely up the gut. I think LBs in a 3-4 have a symbiotic relationship to make the system work.

TheMatrix31
11-03-2011, 05:06 PM
Pretty criminal that Brian Cushing didn't make Peter King's Midseason All-Pro team. Too bad he's a ****ing moron. But whatever.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/11/03/midseason.awards/index.html

devo-x
11-03-2011, 07:12 PM
J. Joseph is the best CB on the Texans since Aaron Glenn

LikeMike
11-03-2011, 07:47 PM
I think Hawk is regarded as elite to the people who pay attention the most in GB but he sorta gets thrown on the backburner when there are people like Matthews and Woodson.

Just thinking that we could`ve snapped him for Slaton last season...

As to the question of the defensive MVP: JoJo changed this defense - perhaps not singlehandedly, but with his ability to stick with his guy, and KJ and Allen not having to cover the best WR, it really opened up the pass rush and really made the whole team better.

Cushing may be playing better right now (really hard to compare) - but he didn`t change the defense (perhaps the mentality a bit)... so my vote is going to JoJo

badboy
11-03-2011, 08:50 PM
The premiere position among 3-4 LBs is OLB because that's where the primary pass-rush is derived. With the exception of Patrick Willis (who is indeed a great football player), few steller performers make their living on the inside, but among OLBs the names of elite players are lengthy: Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews, Terrel Suggs, LaMar Woodly, Mario williams (for a short time), and so on and and so forth.
In positional value, draft-value, free-agency value the ILBs are subordinate to OLBs. Anybody who doesn't know that is uninformed about the 3-4, because the 3-4 defense (or any defense for that matter) is diddly without competant pass-rushers.As it applies to the Texans, with our Dline the ILB shuts down the running lanes . Regardless of the "name" OLB, all a Qb would have to do is dump ball to a RB. WIthout all our D we would have a poor team.

IDEXAN
11-04-2011, 07:49 AM
Lewis is a HOF player and the glue to that defense. No way that team has that elite a defense all these years without Lewis and his sideline to sideline presence....much like Cushing is doing now. Suggs is a top player too, but not the player Lewis has been over the years.
A Lewis/Cushing comparison ? Man, you've gone all-in on that Cush-Koolaid, you must be consuming that stuff by the cases over at your place these days ? Hey, I'm a Cushing fan, but I'm not even going to say he's as good as that ILB I saw playing this last Monday night for the Chiefs much less drop his name in the same sentence with Ray-Ray.
And Lewis "was" that good, but in recent years he's been gliding on the coattails of Ngata & Cody (the one from 'Bama) and Suggs. Besides the Lewis resume is as much about a classic 4-3 MLB as a 3-4 ILB, which is our conversation here.