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gtexan02
10-31-2011, 11:26 AM
Here are our deep pass plays yesterday:

Completions
-2nd and 7 at JAC 44 M.Schaub pass deep middle to K.Walter to JAX 19 for 25 yards (D.Lowery).

-1st and 10 at HOU 33 M.Schaub pass deep left to J.Jones to JAX 39 for 28 yards (D.Cox).

-1st and 10 at HOU 26 (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass deep middle to K.Walter to HST 43 for 17 yards (D.Cox).

Incompletions

-3rd and 7 at JAC 36 (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep right to K.Walter [D.Smith].

-1st and 10 at HOU 39 M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to K.Walter.

-3rd and 10 at HOU 39 (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep left to J.Jones.

-1st and 10 at HOU 31 M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to J.Jones.

-1st and 10 at JAC 44 M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to K.Walter.


So together, when going deep, we were 3/8 for 70 yards with no TDs and no INTs



Was it just me or did it seem like in the 2nd and 3rd quarter we went for the deep ball a lot? Without really being effective? Either Schaub overthrew his receiver or threw into decent coverage. Or to JJones

Deep passes killed a couple of offensive series for us. Schaub also was setting up to go deep on the sack fumble

Scooter
10-31-2011, 11:30 AM
i had to delete the game already, but it did seem we went deep relatively often, especially with the right to left post route. we probably saw something in the jags' defense because our receivers were open, schaub just kept overthrowing them.

a lot of folks knock schaub for not leading his receivers enough, but i'd much rather him throw it a little short and allow the guys to adjust than to put it completely out of reach.

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 11:54 AM
i had to delete the game already, but it did seem we went deep relatively often, especially with the right to left post route. we probably saw something in the jags' defense because our receivers were open, schaub just kept overthrowing them.

a lot of folks knock schaub for not leading his receivers enough, but i'd much rather him throw it a little short and allow the guys to adjust than to put it completely out of reach.

no..that's something you do with a premier talent.....like he does & has done with AJ. You give those types of guys chances to make a play. Someone like Jacoby Jones? Like Kevin Walter? not so much. part of the issue is those guys aren't seperating at the top of their routes enough (Jones), are hella slower than AJ (walter) & neither is getting off the LOS cleanly.

It makes sense when you think about it. when was the last time you saw Schaub overthrow a WR that many times in a game? Never. I'd rather him overthrow with those guys rather than attempt to do something that neither is equipped to do or just aren't very good at doing b/c when you throw the ball that way, you not only give your guy a chance to make the play, you also give the db's a chance as well.......& doing that with AJ, the percentages are in our favor. With anyone else? Nope.

dsorc
10-31-2011, 12:00 PM
Was it just me or did it seem like in the 2nd and 3rd quarter we went for the deep ball a lot? Without really being effective? Either Schaub overthrew his receiver or threw into decent coverage. Or to JJones

Deep passes killed a couple of offensive series for us. Schaub also was setting up to go deep on the sack fumble
The lack of effectiveness on the deep passes was probably a combination of not having AJ and the Jags bringing a lot of pressure. Beyond that, I think the logic behind the deep passes was to try to force the safeties to play deeper. We were unable to break off any long runs all day so Kubiak was probably trying to create more space for the running backs. Going deep should also open up the shorter passing routes to the TEs and slot WRs.

El Tejano
10-31-2011, 12:02 PM
On the deep middle to Jacoby Jones that fell incomplete, I was thinking Jacoby needs to lay out for that.

Fox
10-31-2011, 12:09 PM
Honestly felt like Schaub was just off his game yesterday, one of his poorer performances this year, IMO. Missed several throws deep when our guy had a step or two. Luckily our D is stepping up lately, and the Jags couldn't make us pay for missing those opportunities. He's going to have to play better than this against elite competition.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 12:16 PM
The lack of effectiveness on the deep passes was probably a combination of not having AJ and the Jags bringing a lot of pressure. Beyond that, I think the logic behind the deep passes was to try to force the safeties to play deeper. We were unable to break off any long runs all day so Kubiak was probably trying to create more space for the running backs. Going deep should also open up the shorter passing routes to the TEs and slot WRs.

I agree with this. Plus there seems to be a little timing issue that we should be able to correct. Going deep that often without AJ is not something we do often... which I think is a problem in & of itself.

He layed one right into Jacoby's hands... that was perfect on Matt's part. Those others definitely need some work.

I also agree that it helped open the run game. We didn't connect on most of them, but it showed we were going to take our shots, so they had to defend the deep ball. The average was low, but I think that's because the Jags are that good on defense.

Eventually, we're going to have to connect on those deep balls, Aj is going to help with that.

Rey
10-31-2011, 12:17 PM
a lot of folks knock schaub for not leading his receivers enough, but i'd much rather him throw it a little short and allow the guys to adjust than to put it completely out of reach.

I'd rather he just throw a good ball 7 times out of 10.

Even the big OD catch was a ridiculously low ball...OD probably turns up field a lot faster if Schaub hits him higher...

BigBull17
10-31-2011, 12:22 PM
I like throwing it deep because it seemed to loosen up the box. Even if it isnt sucessful, you have to be weary cause the threat is there.

badboy
10-31-2011, 12:23 PM
I'd rather he just throw a good ball 7 times out of 10.

Even the big OD catch was a ridiculously low ball...OD probably turns up field a lot faster if Schaub hits him higher...exactly. I am glad AJ could sit this one out but Matt was off this game.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 12:25 PM
no..that's something you do with a premier talent.....like he does & has done with AJ. You give those types of guys chances to make a play. Someone like Jacoby Jones? Like Kevin Walter? not so much. part of the issue is those guys aren't seperating at the top of their routes enough (Jones), are hella slower than AJ (walter) & neither is getting off the LOS cleanly.

It makes sense when you think about it. when was the last time you saw Schaub overthrow a WR that many times in a game? Never. I'd rather him overthrow with those guys rather than attempt to do something that neither is equipped to do or just aren't very good at doing b/c when you throw the ball that way, you not only give your guy a chance to make the play, you also give the db's a chance as well.......& doing that with AJ, the percentages are in our favor. With anyone else? Nope.

Good point.

Rey
10-31-2011, 12:29 PM
I like throwing it deep because it seemed to loosen up the box. Even if it isnt sucessful, you have to be weary cause the threat is there.

I would like to see a greater variation of play calls myself...

There are other ways to get guys out of the box besides chunking it deep...

Just spreading the field makes defenders have to widen out.

I think Arian could do well running in a single back, four wide set...Even if you use a TE as the fourth WR, split him out wide and give Arian room to operate...

If the defense doesn't honor your receivers then you gash their ass...

CloakNNNdagger
10-31-2011, 12:30 PM
no..that's something you do with a premier talent.....like he does & has done with AJ. You give those types of guys chances to make a play. Someone like Jacoby Jones? Like Kevin Walter? not so much. part of the issue is those guys aren't seperating at the top of their routes enough (Jones), are hella slower than AJ (walter) & neither is getting off the LOS cleanly.

It makes sense when you think about it. when was the last time you saw Schaub overthrow a WR that many times in a game? Never. I'd rather him overthrow with those guys rather than attempt to do something that neither is equipped to do or just aren't very good at doing b/c when you throw the ball that way, you not only give your guy a chance to make the play, you also give the db's a chance as well.......& doing that with AJ, the percentages are in our favor. With anyone else? Nope.

Isn't it the QB's responsibility to know his receivers and their limitations.......and adjust to them? Schaub was just plain inaccurate. I also noticed that on those long throws, he threw the ball like a baseball......a wind up........and the front leg way up in the air. That front foot was not set before the throw. You are going to trade gaining distance for accuracy. Wonder if anyone can go back and look for an example of him doing that in this game.

Rey
10-31-2011, 12:36 PM
part of the issue is those guys aren't seperating at the top of their routes enough (Jones), are hella slower than AJ (walter) & neither is getting off the LOS cleanly

Jacoby had good separation on the sideline when Matt slightly underthrew the ball.


There really is not a problem as much as the WR and QB need to find a happy medium...

Matt isn't the elite QB that is going to consistently pinpoint passes and put the ball in the best possible place, and the receivers aren't Andre Johnson or Larry Fitz...they aren't going to go up in traffic and claim a ball no matter what the coverage is like...

I think both the QB's and the receivers (outside of Dreesen, OD, Dre) for the Texans need to play a little better overall.

Norg
10-31-2011, 12:41 PM
Alot of times Scahub throw it 2 deep and people say he has no arm LOL and the recivers just couldnt run fast enough to catch it

Either way the mathis Guy i think the jags CB with the Dreads is pretty good Hes really Fast and just overall good he was on our recivers like bread n butter all day


This only works when AJ in on the field LOL

Rey
10-31-2011, 12:49 PM
Alot of times Scahub throw it 2 deep and people say he has no arm LOL and the recivers just couldnt run fast enough to catch it

To me...When I think about arm strength I am not thinking about how far someone can throw...

I am thinking about how fast and how tight the ball is to the target...

A QB with a strong arm can hit small windows and consistently fit balls into tight places...Out routes, short yardage throws, Red Zone throws...

If you have a strong arm you can throw balls on more of a line and you don't have to put as much air under it....That means the balls are getting to the targets faster (the straighter the line the shorter the distance) and it gives defenders less of a chance to react/recover.

If you can hit a guy with minimal arch in the pass it helps out a lot.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 12:52 PM
Alot of times Scahub throw it 2 deep and people say he has no arm LOL and the recivers just couldnt run fast enough to catch it

Either way the Cox Guy i think the jags CB with the Dreads is pretty good Hes really Fast and just overall good he was on our recivers like bread n butter all day


This only works when AJ in on the field LOL

The one with the Dreads was Mathis. Cox was the one getting consistently beat by Jacoby Jones.

This is the first game I saw Schaub over throw any receiver that many times on the deep ball. Now I kinda believe him when he says he underthrows them on purpose.

I still think that is stupid & he should work on that deep ball.

Andre would have a hundred TDs a year if he did.

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 01:00 PM
Isn't it the QB's responsibility to know his receivers and their limitations.......and adjust to them? Schaub was just plain inaccurate. I also noticed that on those long throws, he threw the ball like a baseball......a wind up........and the front leg way up in the air. That front foot was not set before the throw. You are going to gain distance for accuracy. Wonder if anyone can go back and look for an example of him doing that in this game.

Accuracy isn't all on the qb, no more than it's all on the WR. The qb has to trust that you're going to be right where you're supposed to be. I think schaub knows these guys well enough in that 10-20 yd. range running certain routes b/c that's where he normally throws them the ball & that's the routes that they normally run. But if you take all these guys out of their comfort zone (as everyone is with the absence of AJ), you're going to have games like this b/c its whole different set circumstances - chemistry wise.


So yes, schaub could've been more accurate but for him to overthrow them as consistently as he did tells me that the WR's weren't quite where they should've been either....for whatever reason. You also have to figure that jacksonville wouldn't have been playing press man like they were if their was any doubt about whether our WR's could beat them deep or not & with press man comes tons of re-routing, grabbing & holding to throw the timing of a route off.

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 01:02 PM
Jacoby had good separation on the sideline when Matt slightly underthrew the ball.


There really is not a problem as much as the WR and QB need to find a happy medium...

Matt isn't the elite QB that is going to consistently pinpoint passes and put the ball in the best possible place, and the receivers aren't Andre Johnson or Larry Fitz...they aren't going to go up in traffic and claim a ball no matter what the coverage is like...

I think both the QB's and the receivers (outside of Dreesen, OD, Dre) for the Texans need to play a little better overall.

If you're talking about the 1 that JJ dropped, i would disagree. If anything that ball was about as perfectly placed by schaub as you could get...imo of course.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 01:07 PM
If you're talking about the 1 that JJ dropped, i would disagree. If anything that ball was about as perfectly placed by schaub as you could get...imo of course.

I haven't seen it on TV yet, but what I saw at the game & what I saw on the replay, I agree.

I'm Jacoby's biggest fan... but that was as perfect as it could get. Dropped right in the bread basket.

What I did like about that outcome, is that I saw Jacoby working on his hands on the sideline. Right after that, he had someone throwing him the ball so he could catch it with his hands.

After halftime, he had Matt throwing him the ball. Usually that's OD & Andre warming up with the QBs.. it was nice to see Jj get in on some of that.

He knows he screwed up.... & I think he'll work on it.

Norg
10-31-2011, 01:10 PM
what stuned me was that ball Matt throw to Foster on the side he was trying to get rid of it but he throw the ball perfect LOw yes but the ball went right to Fosters lower waist and foster didnt even try to catch it

76Texan
10-31-2011, 01:27 PM
Accuracy isn't all on the qb, no more than it's all on the WR. The qb has to trust that you're going to be right where you're supposed to be. I think schaub knows these guys well enough in that 10-20 yd. range running certain routes b/c that's where he normally throws them the ball & that's the routes that they normally run. But if you take all these guys out of their comfort zone (as everyone is with the absence of AJ), you're going to have games like this b/c its whole different set circumstances - chemistry wise.


So yes, schaub could've been more accurate but for him to overthrow them as consistently as he did tells me that the WR's weren't quite where they should've been either....for whatever reason. You also have to figure that jacksonville wouldn't have been playing press man like they were if their was any doubt about whether our WR's could beat them deep or not & with press man comes tons of re-routing, grabbing & holding to throw the timing of a route off.

1-10-HST 39 (13:54) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to K.Walter.

Texans in play action pass.
Safeties squat to play the run.
Schaub saw that the RCB was in man on Walter (post route).
Schaub went downfield on a 46-yd attempt (from LOS to about chest-high level if the receiver was to catch it.)
This is the top of Schaub's range.
Walter had 6 secs to cover that distance; he didn't.
This one is on Walter IMO; he should have realized single coverage and busted his tail downfield sooner.
Maybe Walter didn't expect Schaub to be able to throw the ball that far, LOL!

76Texan
10-31-2011, 01:38 PM
If you're talking about the 1 that JJ dropped, i would disagree. If anything that ball was about as perfectly placed by schaub as you could get...imo of course.
Same drive, in thesecond qtr

3-10-HST 39 (13:38) (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep left to J.Jones.

Ball slightly underthrown but catchable.
RCB Cox recovered and helped distract JJ from the ball.
A throw a yard further ahead would have given JJ no excuse whatsoever, but still JJ should have caught that ball.
This one is about 31 yards plus the diagonal distance to go to the sideline, the equivalent of a 36-38 yd pass down the middle.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 01:46 PM
Second qtr:

1-10-HST 31 (8:58) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to J.Jones.

Roughly a 43-yd pass, with about 5.5 secs for JJ to cover on a post route.

JJ had enough time to get there.
The ball was just out of reach by a foot or two at he most.

He probably couldn't judge the ball due to looking back straight at the sun.
(Same goes for the earlier passes, more or less, depending on the angle.)
This begs the question, why did we go deep with the receiver having to look back at the sun?
How much does it really affect the receiver's ability to locate and adjust to the ball?

76Texan
10-31-2011, 02:06 PM
3rd qtr

1-10-JAX 44 (13:23) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to K.Walter.

This is only just about 36 yards deep.
Walter had almost 6 secs to run the skinny post.
He did have to take his stem such that he can try to sell the corner route to LCB Mathis (who didn't buy it) and the sun might also have been a factor.
A shorter pass could be a better option here, but it's highly feasible that Schaub expected Walter to get there on the deeper pass; he did have enough time.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2011, 02:13 PM
I said this in another thread but...

I really think that Kubiak saw something in the game tape that led him to believe that the deep ball would be open. They were dialing up a lot more deep throws and being more aggressive with that than usual.

I guess he might have been doing it to loosen up the box a little bit but I think he saw soemthing and was trying to take advantage of it. Schaub was off and he doesn't have the same chemistry with JJ and KW on those deep throws that he does with AJ.

If a couple more of those shots would have hit, we might have broken this game open. But missing those things can be drive killers. Still, it's nice to see them being aggressive with it and it will give the Jags something to think about when we play them next time.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 02:13 PM
First Qtr


3-7-JAX 36 (3:42) (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep right to K.Walter [D.Smith]. (The punt hang time was 4.4
seconds.)
Houston challenged the incomplete pass ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1.)

Very good pass under pressure.
Walter just couldn't drag or tip anther foot on the ground.

Dutchrudder
10-31-2011, 02:14 PM
Second qtr:

1-10-HST 31 (8:58) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to J.Jones.

Roughly a 43-yd pass, with about 5.5 secs for JJ to cover on a post route.

JJ had enough time to get there.
The ball was just out of reach by a foot or two at he most.

He probably couldn't judge the ball due to looking back straight at the sun.
(Same goes for the earlier passes, more or less, depending on the angle.)
This begs the question, why did we go deep with the receiver having to look back at the sun?
How much does it really affect the receiver's ability to locate and adjust to the ball?

I realize the city spent a lot of money on that retractable roof, but for noon games it needs to be closed. It made it difficult on both teams when it came to returns and long passes, something that would have played to the Texans' strengths given that Gabbert is awful.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 02:20 PM
I said this in another thread but...

I really think that Kubiak saw something in the game tape that led him to believe that the deep ball would be open. They were dialing up a lot more deep throws and being more aggressive with that than usual.

I guess he might have been doing it to loosen up the box a little bit but I think he saw soemthing and was trying to take advantage of it. Schaub was off and he doesn't have the same chemistry with JJ and KW on those deep throws that he does with AJ.

If a couple more of those shots would have hit, we might have broken this game open. But missing those things can be drive killers. Still, it's nice to see them being aggressive with it and it will give the Jags something to think about when we play them next time.

I agree!

1-10-HST 33 (5:40) M.Schaub pass deep left to J.Jones to JAX 39 for 28 yards (D.Cox).

Schaub froze the deep safety with a pump fake.
(This guy was looking to help the LCB - Mathis, I think - covering Walter.)
Very nice job on Matt's part.

Rey
10-31-2011, 02:38 PM
The AJ excuse is just that...An excuse...

Im not saying he isn't missing Dre, but lets not act like Shammy was setting the world on fire when Dre was here...

Just about every game he's had poor moments...This game was no exception..

Rey
10-31-2011, 02:41 PM
If you're talking about the 1 that JJ dropped, i would disagree. If anything that ball was about as perfectly placed by schaub as you could get...imo of course.

If we are talking about the same throw then I didn't see that...

The ball was not out in front of Jacoby like it ideally should have been...It was slightly behind him which allowed the defender to have a shot at hitting it...

Jacoby had to slow down and slightly lean back to try to catch it from what I remember...

infantrycak
10-31-2011, 03:47 PM
If we are talking about the same throw then I didn't see that...

The ball was not out in front of Jacoby like it ideally should have been...It was slightly behind him which allowed the defender to have a shot at hitting it...

Jacoby had to slow down and slightly lean back to try to catch it from what I remember...

There was one which was perfectly placed, dropped over JJ's shoulder and should have been an easy in stride reception.

As a general matter, slightly and ideally shouldn't have to be used that often to put criticism on any QB. If's not like the WR's are slot cars and the QB knows the exact speed and path much less the fact the best QB's of all time would be hard pressed dropping 6 balls in a trashcan out of 10 at 40+ yards.

mugrakers
10-31-2011, 03:52 PM
Schaub was just sick of people saying he can't throw the deep ball... that's all lol

Rey
10-31-2011, 04:37 PM
As a general matter, slightly and ideally shouldn't have to be used that often to put criticism on any QB.


I was not being critical of Matt with my comments that you quoted. I was making an observation. I didn't say the throw was bad, awful or anything like that...

I just implied that the throw was not placed in a great spot and it made the catch more difficult.

As far as critiquing QB's when their passes are slightly off, I disagree with you there too. Throwing a ball into a trash can is not the same as putting good placement on a ball for a receiver giving him better odds at making a clean catch.

People have a catch radius...They can adjust to balls..they can dive for balls, speed up or slow down...Trash cans are stationary targets and have small openings...

I never said or suggested that Matt should be able to drill guys in the facemask, but he can improve on his ball placement...

But in another thread I said that Matt and the receivers should find a happy medium..Matt is not an elite gun slinger and the recievers are not Dre or Fitzgerald...Slightly better ball placement and slightly better technique/effort when catching balls would go a long way...