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panamamyers
10-31-2011, 08:23 AM
Did Schaub not think that the linebacker might have designs on getting back up and unloading on him on that fumble play?

He obviously saw him before the back blocked him, but the clock in his head should have sped up considerably at that point.

A win is a win, but between that play and the surefire interception that the db blundered into a Dressen touchdown, Schaub sure made things interesting single-handedly.

Texn4life
10-31-2011, 08:28 AM
Did Schaub not think that the linebacker might have designs on getting back up and unloading on him on that fumble play?

He obviously saw him before the back blocked him, but the clock in his head should have sped up considerably at that point.

A win is a win, but between that play and the surefire interception that the db blundered into a Dressen touchdown, Schaub sure made things interesting single-handedly.

I will say this..... Sessions made a hell of a play in that situation. I don't think Schaub anticipated him getting off the ground as quick as he did. Have to give props where props are due on that one.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:31 AM
Did Schaub not think that the linebacker might have designs on getting back up and unloading on him on that fumble play?

He obviously saw him before the back blocked him, but the clock in his head should have sped up considerably at that point.

A win is a win, but between that play and the surefire interception that the db blundered into a Dressen touchdown, Schaub sure made things interesting single-handedly.

There were too many breakdowns on that play to blame Schaub for anything that happened there. We were struggling on offense, he was trying to make a play.... I commend him for it.

2009... that's the Matt Schaub I want to see. Same situation as the one you're discussing, the 2009 Schaub would have made something happen there.

I think.

But I still wouldn't "blame" Matt on that play.

TheRealJoker
10-31-2011, 08:33 AM
Schaub has a slow releae. He was preparing to pass but couldn't get it off. Speednup the release and at worst that's a tuck rule incompletion.

panamamyers
10-31-2011, 08:42 AM
No doubt Session made a nice play there.

Once Schaub's plant foot hit the 35, the ball should have been out, thrown over Walter's head and out of bounds. He took that extra shuffle step forward and to the right, thinking that Session was going to stay on the ground I guess?
I'm not sure.

Texn4life
10-31-2011, 08:47 AM
No doubt Session made a nice play there.

Once Schaub's plant foot hit the 35, the ball should have been out, thrown over Walter's head and out of bounds. He took that extra shuffle step forward and to the right, thinking that Session was going to stay on the ground I guess?
I'm not sure.

Matt definitely has some brain farts during most games. One of the plays that frustrated me is he got lazy with a screen pass that was tipped and could have easily been intercepted. He had an off day yesterday for sure.

Rey
10-31-2011, 09:13 AM
Yeah...

Matt should have done something different than what he did.

Maybe he thought it was like a movie where a guy gets knocked to the ground and never gets back up...

Taking a sack is one thing....but to fumble is just stupid.

texanhead08
10-31-2011, 09:14 AM
Texans have struggled at times in pass protection this year. There was a period in the Miami game were Schaub was getting hit a lot. They really struggled against the Raiders. There were times yesterday as well. The running game wasn't working well for a period, and that's why the Texans tried to throw deep a few times to loosen up the Jags front seven.

The bottom line is Texans found a way to win and thats all that mattered.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 09:15 AM
A little off topic, but this was Matt's 3rd game in a row without throwing an INT.

In the big picture, this is a good thing.

Rey
10-31-2011, 09:25 AM
A little off topic, but this was Matt's 3rd game in a row without throwing an INT.

In the big picture, this is a good thing.

His completion percentage is pretty poor though...

He's gonna have to get that up some...

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 09:26 AM
Did Schaub not think that the linebacker might have designs on getting back up and unloading on him on that fumble play?

He obviously saw him before the back blocked him, but the clock in his head should have sped up considerably at that point.

A win is a win, but between that play and the surefire interception that the db blundered into a Dressen touchdown, Schaub sure made things interesting single-handedly.

Dude, you're an *****... it was a play designed to go deep & Walter hadn't even gotten back to where he needed to be as you can see that from the shot of the play behind schaub. the clock speeding up in his head would've only had schaub throwing the ball away..he obviously thought he could make something happen with it..i won't put that him.

more than anything, that was just a great play by sessions as everyone did what they were supposed to, sessions just didn't go completely down when arian cut em.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 09:28 AM
His completion percentage is pretty poor though...

He's gonna have to get that up some...

I agree... but in our Texans' way of losing games, beating ourselves with stupid turnovers, this is a plus.

A low completion percentage in a win.. I'll take it.

But I agree there is an underlying problem that needs to be addressed.

ND Kalu was talking about how fans shouldn't be too upset when our QB doesn't have his typical game. But I'm worried about where that line is..... Schaub's typical game. He hasn't looked too hot this year.

His numbers don't look bad.. averages for this season. a 95 QB rating, 60% completion, 13 TDs 5 Ints ( works out to 26 & 10 for the year... )... I guess maybe we're just expecting too much from him. But he's looked a lot better in years past.

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 09:29 AM
His completion percentage is pretty poor though...

He's gonna have to get that up some...

u don't think that that has anything to do with his true #1 WR going down though?

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 09:35 AM
u don't think that that has anything to do with his true #1 WR going down though?

Look, this isn't a pile on Schaub kind of post. It's true, honest criticism. Matt's a probowler, we've got two other probowlers on the field, Arian & OD.... & KDub is money.

We're talking about going deep in the play-offs, & we're going to need Schaub to play better with or without Andre.

Rey isn't being hateful.

Rey
10-31-2011, 09:35 AM
u don't think that that has anything to do with his true #1 WR going down though?

Tavaris Jackson, Cam Newton, Donavan McNabb all have higher completion percentages than Matt.

Something is wrong.

And I'm not saying I don't like Schaub...I'm just saying that he needs to step his game up a bit to give us a better shot at winning games now and in the future..

Really, other than Matt who is performing below what you'd typically expect of them?

We actually have a lot of guys exceeding expectations.

Good QB play can take you a looooooooooooooong way...I hope like hell that Kubiak is being hard on Schaub and trying to get him to raise the level of his play.

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 09:38 AM
Look, this isn't a pile on Schaub kind of post. It's true, honest criticism. Matt's a probowler, we've got two other probowlers on the field, Arian & OD.... & KDub is money.

We're talking about going deep in the play-offs, & we're going to need Schaub to play better with or without Andre.

Rey isn't being hateful.

Uhhh...what are you flying off the handle for? that was just an honest question i had for him...relax.

as for your post Rey, no i believe he can play better but i believe he's got a little shoulder issue that he's playing through (evidenced by the kinesiotape). Hopefully the bye helps him heal up a bit.

drunkcookie
10-31-2011, 09:41 AM
My first thought was to blame Schaub for being a dumbass and not paying attention.. but I backed it up a time or two and thought about it a little more, and though Schaub has to take some blame on the play, it was just a great defensive play... it's not like Schaub ignored the defender and said "well I can just stand here three more seconds and nothing will happen", he was about to launch the ball...

great defensive play mostly...

Rey
10-31-2011, 09:46 AM
Uhhh...what are you flying off the handle for? that was just an honest question i had for him...relax.

About the Andre thing....

I think that hurts the whole offense...Not just Schaub...Defenses had to pay special attention to him...

I actually like the fact that Schaub has been forced to look for other guys besides Dre and OD now.

When Dre comes back I expect the offense to open up and bloom like a Rose...

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 09:48 AM
About the Andre thing....

I think that hurts the whole offense...Not just Schaub...Defenses had to pay special attention to him...

I actually like the fact that Schaub has been forced to look for other guys besides Dre and OD now.

When Dre comes back I expect the offense to open up and bloom like a Rose...

Not that I want to jinx anything, but when Andre comes back, it's going to be something else. As lucky as we've been with the schedule this year, it would appear that fate is kicking us in the gnads every where else.

Rey
10-31-2011, 09:49 AM
My first thought was to blame Schaub for being a dumbass and not paying attention.. but I backed it up a time or two and thought about it a little more, and though Schaub has to take some blame on the play, it was just a great defensive play... it's not like Schaub ignored the defender and said "well I can just stand here three more seconds and nothing will happen", he was about to launch the ball...

great defensive play mostly...

It's ok to take a sack there...

But you can't fumble the ball...You know the guy was chopped...It's the NFL...You have been there for what..7 years?

Schaub has to know that the athletes in the NFL can quickly recover from a chop block.....Ideal would be to keep moving towards the boundary and buy a little time...Or just take the sack and move on from there...

But you cannot leave yourself open for the sack fumble. That just was not smart.

drunkcookie
10-31-2011, 09:52 AM
It's ok to take a sack there...

But you can't fumble the ball...You know the guy was chopped...It's the NFL...You have been there for what..7 years?

Schaub has to know that the athletes in the NFL can quickly recover from a chop block.....Ideal would be to keep moving towards the boundary and buy a little time...Or just take the sack and move on from there...

But you cannot leave yourself open for the sack fumble. That just was not smart.

I get what you're saying... but it's not like Schaub was holding the ball carelessly or anything, he was about to pass the ball... he thought he had time... he didn't... it happens to every quarterback...

the bigger critisim for Schaub yesterday is that he was overthrowing and underthrowing the ball...

Runner
10-31-2011, 10:09 AM
Sometimes the other team makes good plays. I don't see that play as an indictment of Schaub.

Rey
10-31-2011, 10:16 AM
I get what you're saying... but it's not like Schaub was holding the ball carelessly or anything, he was about to pass the ball... he thought he had time... he didn't... it happens to every quarterback...

the bigger critisim for Schaub yesterday is that he was overthrowing and underthrowing the ball...

I'm probably harder on QB's than a lot of people.

I don't expect a goofy play like that from a good veteran QB...

I can see fumbling when you don't know that danger is imminent. But I expect Schaub to have more awareness than to try to wind up for a deep pass and leave himself open like that when a defender was just chopped that close to him...

JMO

welsh texan
10-31-2011, 10:42 AM
I think Schaub's underthrowing/overthrowing is a far greater concern than one bad play for the fumble, if he does that twice a season it won't hurt anywhere near as much as his constant inability to be in tune with Jacoby downfield.

If Schaub had any chemistry with Jacoby we'd have something special on our hands, and I'm not going overboard here, Jacoby has bad hands but at least give him the opportunity to use them, give him the chance to drop passes everywhere rather than simply over/underthrowing him constantly.

I hope Schaub is being affected by the shoulder injury, and I hope that is on the mend, because I'd hate to think he has regressed that much naturally.

Also, when Kubiak arrived all the talk was of a QB coaching guru, so far I've not seen much of that from him, he failed with Carr and sure you can say he was beyond saving, fair enough. I don't see much improvement from Schaub over the guy we traded for, he's the same player just better at avoiding injuries. And despite having paid top-dollar for backups such as Rex, Orlovsky, and Leinart, he's been unable to develop any of them into convincing back-ups. Whats all that about?

El Tejano
10-31-2011, 10:48 AM
I will say this..... Sessions made a hell of a play in that situation. I don't think Schaub anticipated him getting off the ground as quick as he did. Have to give props where props are due on that one.

I said it in another thread. Session is always good for a critical turnover against our team going back to when he played for Indy. I would think Schaub would've checked down in that situation.

El Tejano
10-31-2011, 10:55 AM
The other thing I'd like to see Matt improve on is understanding that OD's hands are not located where his feet are. How many times does OD have to keep making these below the knees fingertip grabs. If OD doesn't catch that one and turn it up field, we may get beat in this game.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 10:56 AM
I think Schaub's underthrowing/overthrowing is a far greater concern than one bad play for the fumble...


I will say this, I no longer question Schaub's arm strength. Some of those deep balls that were over thrown...... wow.. & that one to JJ on the sideline... perfect.

But they need to work on that more in practice. I don't understand how he can miss KDub like that.... he's been playing with the guy since 2007. & then drop it into Jacoby's bread basket when he's got stone hands.

KDub is money, get the ball close & it's a catch.

panamamyers
10-31-2011, 11:14 AM
Dude, you're an *****... it was a play designed to go deep & Walter hadn't even gotten back to where he needed to be as you can see that from the shot of the play behind schaub. the clock speeding up in his head would've only had schaub throwing the ball away..he obviously thought he could make something happen with it..i won't put that him.

more than anything, that was just a great play by sessions as everyone did what they were supposed to, sessions just didn't go completely down when arian cut em.

Sometimes you just need to live to fight another day. Schaub should have just thrown the ball away is what my point was.
Just get rid of it or check down to an outlet guy somewhere as soon as you see Session chopped by Foster. The internal clock should be ticking in quadruple time once he saw Session there.
It was just a brainfart by Schaub, and that was the only way the Jaguars were going to score.

I was at the game, so I did not get a good look. Should the Texas have challenged that the last pitch after the fumble was in fact a forward pass?
I think that would have left them out by the 25-30 after the penalty, and it would have been easier to hold them to a field goal.

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 11:33 AM
Sometimes you just need to live to fight another day. Schaub should have just thrown the ball away is what my point was.
Just get rid of it or check down to an outlet guy somewhere as soon as you see Session chopped by Foster. The internal clock should be ticking in quadruple time once he saw Session there.
It was just a brainfart by Schaub, and that was the only way the Jaguars were going to score.

I was at the game, so I did not get a good look. Should the Texas have challenged that the last pitch after the fumble was in fact a forward pass?
I think that would have left them out by the 25-30 after the penalty, and it would have been easier to hold them to a field goal.

You could argue that schaub should've just thrown it away but you gotta realize this stuff is happening in split seconds. Sessions came on a blitz up the middle & forced schaub to move thereby throwing the timing of the play off from the get go. But even if schaub has a chance to throw it away:

1.) he needs someone to throw it to (or at least someone's feet to throw it to)....or he's got to get out of the pocket. The latter wasn't happening b/c the DE was right there in front of him which is why i think he chose to set back up right where he did.

2) kind of goes with #1...how many people were out in route for him to throw it away to? We can safely assume Walter & JJ were & we know Walter was going deep & wasn't even looking for the ball. JJ was on the other side of the field...which is a no no for a qb to throw across the field no matter where he was. & we know arian cut down sessions blitzing so in essence he was out of the play for the moment. That only leaves Daniels but where was he for schaub to check it down / throw it away to?

I'll never fault a guy for trying to make a play if the play is there to be made / it needs to be made & that's all schaub was trying to do there. sometimes the defense just makes a play & that was 1 for the jags.

Jackie Chiles
10-31-2011, 12:16 PM
Could Schaub have done a bit more to avoid that play? Yes. Was it an incredible defensive effort? Yes. I was pissed at him in the heat of the moment and I believe he will get the ball out a bit quicker next time there is a defender lying down at his feet but Sessions made that play more than Schaub imo.

As for the people complaining about his completion percentage I would point out that his YPA is the highest its been in his entire career (8.34). Considering we have been without Dre for a significant portion of the season I would argue that Schaub is playing the best ball of his career. A lot of that has to do with us running the ball with more conviction than we ever have in the past which means Matt has even more PA opportunities than usual and he is taking advantage of them big time. As Bart Scott would say, "Can't Wait!" till Andre Johnson gets back.

panamamyers
10-31-2011, 01:12 PM
You could argue that schaub should've just thrown it away but you gotta realize this stuff is happening in split seconds. Sessions came on a blitz up the middle & forced schaub to move thereby throwing the timing of the play off from the get go. But even if schaub has a chance to throw it away:

1.) he needs someone to throw it to (or at least someone's feet to throw it to)....or he's got to get out of the pocket. The latter wasn't happening b/c the DE was right there in front of him which is why i think he chose to set back up right where he did.

2) kind of goes with #1...how many people were out in route for him to throw it away to? We can safely assume Walter & JJ were & we know Walter was going deep & wasn't even looking for the ball. JJ was on the other side of the field...which is a no no for a qb to throw across the field no matter where he was. & we know arian cut down sessions blitzing so in essence he was out of the play for the moment. That only leaves Daniels but where was he for schaub to check it down / throw it away to?

I'll never fault a guy for trying to make a play if the play is there to be made / it needs to be made & that's all schaub was trying to do there. sometimes the defense just makes a play & that was 1 for the jags.

Let's say I paused the play and told Schaub, hey buddy, in 1.2 seconds you are going to get walloped in the back and fumble the ball away, is there any way you can get rid of this ball in less time than that to avoid the fumble?

I'm sure the answer would be yes. So, now that we know it was possible for him to have avoided it, it really boils down to him not realizing the imminent danger was present.

That's the qbs job to understand and avoid that fumble and live to fight another day or punt it away.

It was the only reason this game was close essentially.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2011, 01:18 PM
Sometimes the other team makes good plays. I don't see that play as an indictment of Schaub.

^^^ This.

Quarterbacks aren't supposed to be looking at the rush, they're supposed to be looking down the field. And that's what Schaub was doing.

He was waiting for his receiver (because it was a long route) and he was just about to throw when he got hit from behind.

That's just football. I don't blame Schaub for that.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 01:19 PM
Let's say I paused the play and told Schaub, hey buddy, in 1.2 seconds you are going to get walloped in the back and fumble the ball away, is there any way you can get rid of this ball in less time than that to avoid the fumble?

I'm sure the answer would be yes. So, now that we know it was possible for him to have avoided it, it really boils down to him not realizing the imminent danger was present.

That's the qbs job to understand and avoid that fumble and live to fight another day or punt it away.

It was the only reason this game was close essentially.

You're right.

But at the same time, most of us likes the QB that gets lit up as he delivers that perfect strike down-field.

Schaub thought he had that opportunity there & missed it by a fraction of a second.

As has been said, I'll never fault a QB for staying in the pocket trying to make a play despite the imminent danger.

That's soft, & we ain't soft in H-Town.

:Texan:

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2011, 01:22 PM
The coaches obviously saw something with the Jaguar secondary where they thought they had some shots down the field. The gameplan was to go deep and to do it often.

But the offense this year seems to be taking more shots down the field than it has previously. The problem with going deep is that the completion percentage goes down. And I think that's what we're seeing.

srrono
10-31-2011, 01:28 PM
this guy isnt Tom Brady by the way Brady had a bone head moment at the end of his game as well look at the high lights last play he had looked the exact same as Schaubs play. Fans shoot Schaub for not standing tall not running not making plays well in order to make them plays u have to take chances. These chances just dont seem to work out for him, so he is damn if he does damn if doesn't.

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 01:29 PM
Let's say I paused the play and told Schaub, hey buddy, in 1.2 seconds you are going to get walloped in the back and fumble the ball away, is there any way you can get rid of this ball in less time than that to avoid the fumble?

I'm sure the answer would be yes. So, now that we know it was possible for him to have avoided it, it really boils down to him not realizing the imminent danger was present.

That's the qbs job to understand and avoid that fumble and live to fight another day or punt it away.

It was the only reason this game was close essentially.

#1, 99% of qb's are fumbling the ball in that situation if they choose to make a play & throw it b/c it is the beginning point at which they are most exposed (the wind up). So why fault him for something that likely happens to every qb in the league if they go that route?

#2 you just cant fault the guy for trying to make a play in that situation. If he just fell down & took the sack & "lived to fight another day" folks would be in here pissed off saying he went out like a chump &/or he's scary You guys can't have it both ways.

Rey
10-31-2011, 02:29 PM
That was a dumb play by Schaub IMHO.

I don't understand the great play by Sessions stuff either...It was a regular play...He got chopped and got back up....

It's not like he jumped over Arian and simultaneously tackled Schaub or anything amazing like that...

Schaub should not fumble the ball even when defenders get after him around the edges and stuff like in the typical fashion...

He definitely shouldn't be fumbling when he sees a guy get chopped right next to him...

It was a lack of awareness on his part...Sessions didn't do anything that any defender wouldn't have done...Get chopped, pop back up and keep going...

Get rid of the ball faster, keep drifting to the sideline, stand in there for as long as you can and if you happened to get sacked don't fumble...

But you cannot open yourself up like that when the defender is right there by you and you know it. It makes you more vulnerable to injury and turnovers...I'm pretty sure Gary talked to him about that and told him what he did wrong there....I am almost 100% positive he didn't say "Well Matt...That was just a great play by Clint"....

TexansFanatic
10-31-2011, 02:37 PM
I'm with Myers on this one. I couldn't believe Schaub just stood there after seeing the defender bearing down on him.

Kudos to Schaub for having the stones to hang in there and wait for the play to develop, but---DUDE!---it's time to move out of the pocket when they're gettiing that close!

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 02:46 PM
That was a dumb play by Schaub IMHO.

I don't understand the great play by Sessions stuff either...It was a regular play...He got chopped and got back up....

It's not like he jumped over Arian and simultaneously tackled Schaub or anything amazing like that...

Schaub should not fumble the ball even when defenders get after him around the edges and stuff like in the typical fashion...

He definitely shouldn't be fumbling when he sees a guy get chopped right next to him...

It was a lack of awareness on his part...Sessions didn't do anything that any defender wouldn't have done...Get chopped, pop back up and keep going...

Get rid of the ball faster, keep drifting to the sideline, stand in there for as long as you can and if you happened to get sacked don't fumble...

But you cannot open yourself up like that when the defender is right there by you and you know it. It makes you more vulnerable to injury and turnovers...I'm pretty sure Gary talked to him about that and told him what he did wrong there....I am almost 100% positive he didn't say "Well Matt...That was just a great play by Clint"....

LOL, yeah when you over-simplify it like that man, nothing is remarkable.

For schaubs part of it, It was just a situation where he tried to squeeze too much out of it that he probably shouldn't have; it happens to even the best qb's in the league from time to time Someone mentioned Brady's blunder at the end of his game....he had plenty of other times in that game where he should've just thrown it away but he didn't & instead took a sack with a 9 yd. loss. noone plays a perfect game.

As far as sessions part of it, most guys who get chopped down like that, don't spring up that fast &/or don't land in such a way that enables them to do that...

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2011, 03:51 PM
He's on track to throw for more than 4000 yards again this season... for the 3rd year in a row and he'll probably throw for more than that because we're entering the "easy" part of the schedule. He's ranked 8th in the league in yards and 7th in the league in Passer Rating. He's 4th in the league for first downs. He's 2nd in the league in pass plays of over 20 yards. He's been picked off (5) less than Tom Brady (8), Matt Ryan (8), Cam Newton (9), Rivers (9), Brees (10), and Freeman (10), and a lot more guys.

He is not, however, as accurate this year as he has been in previous years. But I think that's because he's looking down the field a lot more and taking a lot more risks and being more aggressive.

This is the first fumble he's lost all season.

You can say what you want but he is not having a bad year.

NitroGSXR
10-31-2011, 04:42 PM
That was a dumb play by Schaub IMHO.

I don't understand the great play by Sessions stuff either...It was a regular play...He got chopped and got back up....

It's not like he jumped over Arian and simultaneously tackled Schaub or anything amazing like that...

Schaub should not fumble the ball even when defenders get after him around the edges and stuff like in the typical fashion...

He definitely shouldn't be fumbling when he sees a guy get chopped right next to him...

It was a lack of awareness on his part...Sessions didn't do anything that any defender wouldn't have done...Get chopped, pop back up and keep going...

Get rid of the ball faster, keep drifting to the sideline, stand in there for as long as you can and if you happened to get sacked don't fumble...

But you cannot open yourself up like that when the defender is right there by you and you know it. It makes you more vulnerable to injury and turnovers...I'm pretty sure Gary talked to him about that and told him what he did wrong there....I am almost 100% positive he didn't say "Well Matt...That was just a great play by Clint"....

You're making it sound like Schaub has fumblitis (sp?). That was Schaub's first fumble that he lost this year. I looked at Tom Brady who is a premiere QB for comparision purposes... sooooo... Brady has lost 32 fumbles over 9 full seasons (I did not count his rookie nor his injury years). That translates to 3.55 fumbles per season.

Now...

Matt Schaub lost 12 fumbles over 4 full seasons for the Texans (behind a horrid o-line during his earlier days to boot!). That makes for 3 fumbles per year. Midway through this season and he finally loses his first and you are crying awareness? Eh. Me thinks the haterade has been spiked a bit strong.

Rey
10-31-2011, 04:44 PM
LOL, yeah when you over-simplify it like that man, nothing is remarkable.

For schaubs part of it, It was just a situation where he tried to squeeze too much out of it that he probably shouldn't have; it happens to even the best qb's in the league from time to time Someone mentioned Brady's blunder at the end of his game....he had plenty of other times in that game where he should've just thrown it away but he didn't & instead took a sack with a 9 yd. loss. noone plays a perfect game.

As far as sessions part of it, most guys who get chopped down like that, don't spring up that fast &/or don't land in such a way that enables them to do that...

I won't argue with that...

I still believe Matt shouldn't have fumbled there, but I won't argue against what you have said too much...

Rey
10-31-2011, 04:45 PM
You're making it sound like Schaub has fumblitis (sp?). That was Schaub's first fumble that he lost this year. I looked at Tom Brady who is a premiere QB for comparision purposes... sooooo... Brady has lost 32 fumbles over 9 full seasons (I did not count his rookie nor his injury years). That translates to 3.55 fumbles per season.

Now...

Matt Schaub lost 12 fumbles over 4 full seasons for the Texans (behind a horrid o-line during his earlier days to boot!). That makes for 3 fumbles per year. Midway through this season and he finally loses his first and you are crying awareness? Eh. Me thinks the haterade has been spiked a bit strong.

What are you talking about?

I never said anything about Matt having fumbling problems.

I said ON THAT PLAY he shouldn't have fumbled. I don't even know much about his fumbling history.

Seriously...some of y'all take criticisms/observations of certain players to heart it seems...

I call it like I see it and I don't have a vindetta out for any player that I watch. I've shown praise and been critical of almost every player on the team.

Stop reading into stuff that I didn't write and creating your own narrative and take what I'm saying at face value. If you do that then we can have a discussion.

dalemurphy
10-31-2011, 04:53 PM
As far as sessions part of it, most guys who get chopped down like that, don't spring up that fast &/or don't land in such a way that enables them to do that...

I was at the game and I couldn't figure out where the hit came from until I re-watched it afterwards. Once Foster cut Sessions, I was looking for the big play downfield, because it looked like Schaub had time and space to deliver a pass with ease. You're right! He jumped up very quickly to make that play.

NitroGSXR
10-31-2011, 05:01 PM
What are you talking about?

I never said anything about Matt having fumbling problems.

I said ON THAT PLAY he shouldn't have fumbled. I don't even know much about his fumbling history.

Seriously...some of y'all take criticisms/observations of certain players to heart it seems...

I call it like I see it and I don't have a vindetta out for any player that I watch. I've shown praise and been critical of almost every player on the team.

Stop reading into stuff that I didn't write and creating your own narrative and take what I'm saying at face value. If you do that then we can have a discussion.
???

My own narrative? Umm... okay. Let me try it a different way for you...

On THAT play? C'mon now. When has Schaub ever "should" have fumbled? In a perfect world, a QB should never fumble. The point of my post was that I'm going to cut him a little slack here given that he doesn't have a history of fumblitis nor had he fumbled in all of 7 and a half games thus far. You not knowing much about his fumbling history shows. It matters.

Rey
10-31-2011, 05:18 PM
He's on track to throw for more than 4000 yards again this season... for the 3rd year in a row and he'll probably throw for more than that because we're entering the "easy" part of the schedule. He's ranked 8th in the league in yards and 7th in the league in Passer Rating. He's 4th in the league for first downs. He's 2nd in the league in pass plays of over 20 yards. He's been picked off (5) less than Tom Brady (8), Matt Ryan (8), Cam Newton (9), Rivers (9), Brees (10), and Freeman (10), and a lot more guys.

He is not, however, as accurate this year as he has been in previous years. But I think that's because he's looking down the field a lot more and taking a lot more risks and being more aggressive.

This is the first fumble he's lost all season.

You can say what you want but he is not having a bad year.


I didn't say he was having a bad year...I said he's had stretches of shitty play in just about every game.

But since you are rattling off stats...

David Carr completed about 70% of his passes and threw for about 3,000 yards with worse all around talent around him on offense...He was in the top half of the league in just about every meaningful QB stat...

That was Kubiak's first year implementing his system...

The system in itself produces yardage and decent looking stats...

When I watch the games I see a QB that could be doing more.

Rey
10-31-2011, 05:24 PM
On THAT play? C'mon now. When has Schaub ever "should" have fumbled? In a perfect world, a QB should never fumble.

There are times when you don't really blame the QB for fumbling...

When an O-linemen gets beat and a defender levels him from his blindside...When an O-lineman lets the defender ride him into the QB and he strips the ball as the QB is throwing...

When a QB doesn't see a guy coming and is hit unexpectedly....ok...I can give him a pass...

When a QB sees a guy and knows that a hit is coming...No...

Dutchrudder
10-31-2011, 05:25 PM
You're making it sound like Schaub has fumblitis (sp?). That was Schaub's first fumble that he lost this year. I looked at Tom Brady who is a premiere QB for comparision purposes... sooooo... Brady has lost 32 fumbles over 9 full seasons (I did not count his rookie nor his injury years). That translates to 3.55 fumbles per season.

Now...

Matt Schaub lost 12 fumbles over 4 full seasons for the Texans (behind a horrid o-line during his earlier days to boot!). That makes for 3 fumbles per year. Midway through this season and he finally loses his first and you are crying awareness? Eh. Me thinks the haterade has been spiked a bit strong.

Care to use games played instead of the number of seasons? Schaub only played 11 games in 07 and 08. 16+16+11+11 = 54 games for the Texans (not including 2011). Brady played 143 in the span you set.

Also, if you're going to cite stats and such, please post a source. According to Pro FB Ref (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SchaMa00.htm) Schaub has 29 fumbles, 21 of which were lost in those games. (ESPN credits (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5615/matt-schaub) him with 20 lost fumbles in that time)

Brady has had 72 fumbles, 56 of which were lost over that time.

Schaub's games: 54 divided by the number of fumbles lost: 21 = 2.57 games per lost fumble

Brady's games: 143 divided by the number of fumbles lost: 56 = 2.55 games per lost fumble

Not much of a difference between the two, but a far cry from saying Schaub is better than Brady in this category.


*Edited to update info.

infantrycak
10-31-2011, 06:20 PM
David Carr completed about 70% of his passes and threw for about 3,000 yards with worse all around talent around him on offense...He was in the top half of the league in just about every meaningful QB stat...

Really you are even going to try to compare the two? Carr had 2767 yds which is a significant distance from 3000 yds which is a huge difference from 4200 yards. But here is an easy one to compare dink and dunk against supposedly noodle arm. In 16 games Carr had 25 passes over 20 yards and 3 over 40 yards. In 8 Schaub has 34 over 20 yards and 7 over 40 yards. It ain't just the system.

TexansFanatic
10-31-2011, 06:35 PM
Really you are even going to try to compare the two? Carr had 2767 yds which is a significant distance from 3000 yds which is a huge difference from 4200 yards. But here is an easy one to compare dink and dunk against supposedly noodle arm. In 16 games Carr had 25 passes over 20 yards and 3 over 40 yards. In 8 Schaub has 34 over 20 yards and 7 over 40 yards. It ain't just the system.

Additionally, Carr's yards per attempt in 2006 was a typically laughable 6.3.

Schuab's Y/A this season is 8.3. In fact, in terms of career yards per attempt, Schaub is among the elite in NFL history.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_per_att_career.htm

Double Barrel
10-31-2011, 06:39 PM
as for your post Rey, no i believe he can play better but i believe he's got a little shoulder issue that he's playing through (evidenced by the kinesiotape). Hopefully the bye helps him heal up a bit.

Thanks for the mention of the kinesiotape. I've wondered what it was during the game but I always forget to ask about it later.

Interestingly enough, I read about it, and it seems to be like those magnet bracelets that were the rage awhile back:

"There is very little evidence that elastic therapeutic tape produces clinically significant benefits." Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_therapeutic_tape)

Very interesting to see an NFL team using it. I don't have much beyond finding it interesting, though.

Sometimes the other team makes good plays. I don't see that play as an indictment of Schaub.

It was such a quick play that I thought the same thing. I though Schaub had time, but dude jumped up like a jackrabbit and clobbered him before #8 knew what hit him.

Yeah, initially mad at Schuab after the way the play worked out, but after watching again and again in replay (beauty of DVR), I think it was so BANG BANG that you just have to chaulk it up to "stuff happens" in football.

I will say this, I no longer question Schaub's arm strength. Some of those deep balls that were over thrown...... wow.. & that one to JJ on the sideline... perfect.

But they need to work on that more in practice. I don't understand how he can miss KDub like that.... he's been playing with the guy since 2007. & then drop it into Jacoby's bread basket when he's got stone hands.

KDub is money, get the ball close & it's a catch.

I noticed a nice long ball, too, but either his accuracy is off or his receivers aren't fast enough. But, yeah, like you said, that should put an end to the urban legend that he can't throw that far.

bo orlando
10-31-2011, 06:51 PM
Pocket awareness is important obviously, but I've seen several coaches and GM's say that eye level is a more important trait for QB's. So I like that Schaub kept looking downfield on that play instead of tucking the ball and scrambling out of the pocket or looking to dump the ball off to Foster when the LB made his initial rush.

sbalderrama
10-31-2011, 06:59 PM
Quarterbacks aren't supposed to be looking at the rush, they're supposed to be looking down the field. And that's what Schaub was doing.


exactly. If they are more worried about the rush than the play you end up with David Carr syndrome.

Norg
10-31-2011, 07:06 PM
He was not aware that CLint session a guy that has burned him in the past was at his feet LOL

Lucky
10-31-2011, 07:13 PM
I don't think this is an indictment on Schaub's overall awareness, but yes, he should have gotten rid of the ball sooner. He saw the blitz and stepped away. At that point the ball should have come out. He loaded and hitched and...it was too late. His mistake.

I was more concerned with Matt & Gary's post game quotes (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Postgame-Quotes-Texans-vs-Jaguars/d7daca0c-5fc3-4dd2-99d6-44e9e6e7f8e7).

Schaub on shots down field
“Yeah, we had some opportunities. We had some things that we were alert and we had some plays to make downfield and really, some of those throws were on me. I know Jacoby (Jones) wants to have one back, but there were a couple that I overthrew to Kevin (Walter) and one to Jacoby. We got to make those plays. I got to find a way to make the throw and connect on those because those are momentum shifters. Those are big plays, 62-yard touchdowns that we don’t get.”

Kubiak's Monday presser (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Quotes-Kubiak-Monday-press-conference/077a47a7-cfda-4dae-aea1-9648a2f0f361):
I was disappointed offensively that we missed some big plays. We had four or five opportunities for some huge plays in the game and we didn’t make them, so we got to step up and make those plays.”
Why did they feel like those deep passes had to be made? The offense had proven they could sustain a drive against the Jags defense. The defense had proven they could stop the Jags from sustaining long drives. Take a shot or two downfield, sure. But continue to force the ball downfield? It wasn't necessary, and it led to a turnover. I didn't get it then, and I don't see their logic, now.

ObsiWan
10-31-2011, 07:17 PM
I don't think this is an indictment on Schaub's overall awareness, but yes, he should have gotten rid of the ball sooner. He saw the blitz and stepped away. At that point the ball should have come out. He loaded and hitched and...it was too late. His mistake.

I was more concerned with Matt & Gary's post game quotes (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Postgame-Quotes-Texans-vs-Jaguars/d7daca0c-5fc3-4dd2-99d6-44e9e6e7f8e7).

Schaub on shots down field


Kubiak's Monday presser (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Quotes-Kubiak-Monday-press-conference/077a47a7-cfda-4dae-aea1-9648a2f0f361):

Why did they feel like those deep passes had to be made? The offense had proven they could sustain a drive against the Jags defense. The defense had proven they could stop the Jags from sustaining long drives. Take a shot or two downfield, sure. But continue to force the ball downfield? It wasn't necessary, and it led to a turnover. I didn't get it then, and I don't see their logic, now.

the only reason I can think of is that it might have loosened up the Jags defense by making their safeties play off the line.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2011, 10:47 PM
But since you are rattling off stats...

David Carr completed about 70% of his passes and threw for about 3,000 yards with worse all around talent around him on offense...He was in the top half of the league in just about every meaningful QB stat...

That was Kubiak's first year implementing his system...

The system in itself produces yardage and decent looking stats...

When I watch the games I see a QB that could be doing more.

This is a bit of revisionist history.

Carr did complete 68.3% of his passes. That was #1 in the league. Yay! His passer rating was 82.1 which was 15th in the league. But it all goes south from there.

Carr threw for 2767 yards and he was 18th in the league. He threw for 11 touchdowns and that was 23rd in the league. His yards per attempt (6.3) were also 23rd in the league. He had 25 passes of 20+ yards which was 24th in the league. 31% of his passes went for first downs, that was 18th in the league.

Carr was not a QB in the top half of the league. Kubiak was able to play to Carr's strengths and dial up things and scheme the offense to protect him but to compare Carr's stats to Schaub's stats is night and day.

NitroGSXR
11-01-2011, 12:08 AM
Care to use games played instead of the number of seasons? Schaub only played 11 games in 07 and 08. 16+16+11+11 = 54 games for the Texans (not including 2011). Brady played 143 in the span you set.

Also, if you're going to cite stats and such, please post a source. According to Pro FB Ref (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SchaMa00.htm) Schaub has 29 fumbles, 21 of which were lost in those games. (ESPN credits (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5615/matt-schaub) him with 20 lost fumbles in that time)

Brady has had 72 fumbles, 56 of which were lost over that time.

Schaub's games: 54 divided by the number of fumbles lost: 21 = 2.57 games per lost fumble

Brady's games: 143 divided by the number of fumbles lost: 56 = 2.55 games per lost fumble

Not much of a difference between the two, but a far cry from saying Schaub is better than Brady in this category.


*Edited to update info.

No. I don't really care to. Let me explain a little better... I don't think it matters much because i am talking about after they became full-time starters. This is which is why Brady's rookie year and Schaub's time in Atlanta was disincluded in addition to Brady's 1 quarter season. Also, I specifically mentioned the weak offensive line that Schaub played behind as evidenced by him missing a few games and his high rate of turnovers his first two years here.

It's interesting that you have completely different stats than I do. I guess that's what happens when one seeks out second party sources like ESPN. Me? I like to go straight to the horse's mouth... the NFL themselves... sorry for not linking earlier. I usually do this via my phone and cut and paste isn't an option on it.

http://www.nfl.com/player/mattschaub/2505982/profile

Career... 35 fumbles/14 lost

http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504211/profile

Career... 73 fumbles/32 lost

FWIW, I wasn't trying to say Schaub has a better head than Brady in this category. Just that Schaub protects the ball well and yet he routinely throws bombs downfield... like Brady does.

Noodle arm. Fumble happy. Injury prone. The TM shitty throw of the game. Now... he's got poor pocket awareness. It just seems like Schaub can do nothing right by this fan base.

Corrosion
11-01-2011, 12:26 AM
Just an observation from being forced to watcdh the replay's of the Pats Steelers game 9 dozen times in the past two days ..... Ive yet to see a Texans Jags highlight on ESPiN or NFL Network ..... its all Pats Steelers and Shitpies sucking. Its nice to see the Shitpies get so much negative attention ..... haha


If you look at some of the OL breakdowns by the Pats ..... Brady made many of the same mistakes Schaub has when under pressure.

Not making excuses for Schaub .... Just making an observation. :kitten:

NitroGSXR
11-01-2011, 12:39 AM
I crunched the numbers the way Dutch wanted to... I incorrectly calculated Schaib as of having 12 fumbles as a full time starter. He had 13. My bad... I had a "Schaub" deer in headlights moment. No excuses. I should have added that correctly... right?

Schaub... 62 ÷ 13 = 4.75

Brady... 150 ÷ 32 = 4.68

Schaub's got the better number despite having a horrid offensive line. Hmm... interesting. I learned something here about Schaub.

Corrosion
11-01-2011, 12:41 AM
I crunched the numbers the way Dutch wanted to... I incorrectly calculated Schaib as of having 12 fumbles as a full time starter. He had 13. My bad... I had a "Schaub" deer in headlights moment. No excuses. I should have added that correctly... right?

Schaub... 62 ÷ 13 = 4.75

Brady... 150 ÷ 32 = 4.68

Schaub's got the better number despite having a horrid offensive line. Hmm... interesting. I learned something here about Schaub.

I think the Texans OL is head and shoulders better than the Pats OL ..... Brady makes them look a lot better than they are with good footwork , a quick relese and his pocket awareness .... he avoids a lot of pressure that many other QB's dont.

NitroGSXR
11-01-2011, 12:49 AM
I think the Texans OL is head and shoulders better than the Pats OL ..... Brady makes them look a lot better than they are with good footwork , a quick relese and his pocket awareness .... he avoids a lot of pressure that many other QB's dont.

It is now but not four years ago. We're really enjoying having Duane Brown anchoring that line these days. Brady's definitely more mobile than Schaub... so does that mean Schaub's even more aware than the numbers indicate?

Corrosion
11-01-2011, 12:56 AM
It is now but not four years ago. We're really enjoying having Duane Brown anchoring that line these days. Brady's definitely more mobile than Schaub... so does that mean Schaub's even more aware than the numbers indicate?

Maybe ? I know Schaub will throw it away if nothing is available .... be it out of bounds , or in the direction of a reciever rather than taking a hit.


I was just pointing out that every QB is going to make mistakes when under pressure ..... Brees is another example , he quite often tries to make something out of nothing and it often its either a big play or a turnover. Just look at the second half of the game against the Texans this year for a prime example of it. That shovel pass while he was in the process of being tackled was a game changer.

House of Pain
11-01-2011, 03:08 AM
I don't think this is an indictment on Schaub's overall awareness, but yes, he should have gotten rid of the ball sooner. He saw the blitz and stepped away. At that point the ball should have come out. He loaded and hitched and...it was too late. His mistake.

I was more concerned with Matt & Gary's post game quotes (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Postgame-Quotes-Texans-vs-Jaguars/d7daca0c-5fc3-4dd2-99d6-44e9e6e7f8e7).

Schaub on shots down field


Kubiak's Monday presser (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Quotes-Kubiak-Monday-press-conference/077a47a7-cfda-4dae-aea1-9648a2f0f361):

Why did they feel like those deep passes had to be made? The offense had proven they could sustain a drive against the Jags defense. The defense had proven they could stop the Jags from sustaining long drives. Take a shot or two downfield, sure. But continue to force the ball downfield? It wasn't necessary, and it led to a turnover. I didn't get it then, and I don't see their logic, now.

I see how you can read those comments that way. To me, I think that Kubiak is simply saying that had we got those big plays we could have taken control of the game sooner and put it out of reach. I could be wrong.

Rey
11-01-2011, 07:55 AM
Really you are even going to try to compare the two? Carr had 2767 yds which is a significant distance from 3000 yds which is a huge difference from 4200 yards. But here is an easy one to compare dink and dunk against supposedly noodle arm. In 16 games Carr had 25 passes over 20 yards and 3 over 40 yards. In 8 Schaub has 34 over 20 yards and 7 over 40 yards. It ain't just the system.

The point is that even Carr looked semi functional with significantly less overall offensive talent around him.

Where did I compare him to schaub other than saying they played under kubiak in his offense?

The offense in itself is a stat producer.

But still a mistake is a mistake. He could have done a better job on the play in question. Jmo.

Rey
11-01-2011, 08:03 AM
I don't think this is an indictment on Schaub's overall awareness, but yes, he should have gotten rid of the ball sooner. He saw the blitz and stepped away. At that point the ball should have come out. He loaded and hitched and...it was too late. His mistake.

I was more concerned with Matt & Gary's post game quotes (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Postgame-Quotes-Texans-vs-Jaguars/d7daca0c-5fc3-4dd2-99d6-44e9e6e7f8e7).

Schaub on shots down field.

Thats pretty much it. He made a mistake. Doesn't mean he sucks.

The Pencil Neck
11-01-2011, 05:32 PM
For me it all comes down to this...

Would a "better" QB have made a better play in the same situation? And I think the answer is 'no.' You can't say someone like Brady or Roethlisburger doesn't make the same mistake because they make similar mistakes to that.

In the game against the Steelers, Brady felt pressure (if he would have looked, he would have seen him) and was slowly stepping backward with the ball in his hand and a Steeler slapped the ball out of his hands. And this is when Brady had both hands on the ball and wasn't even preparing to throw other than looking downfield.

Schaub was in the process of throwing with his arm coming back and he got hit. He fumbled. That happens to QBs, including the great ones, all the time. I don't care if he saw Sessions get blocked or not. He was looking down the field the way he was supposed to and he was preparing to throw.

Now, when a QB is scrambling around with the ball in one hand and it gets slapped out, THAT's when you get ticked off about ball protection. Not when a guy is hit while throwing.

Every QB in the league, except for those so gun-shy about the rush as to be unable to play the position effectively, make the same play there and all of them lose the fumble in that spot. So blaming Schaub for it is setting the performance bar impossibly high and just picking at him to pick at him.

That's my 2 cents.

Rey
11-01-2011, 06:05 PM
For me it all comes down to this...

Would a "better" QB have made a better play in the same situation? And I think the answer is 'no.' You can't say someone like Brady or Roethlisburger doesn't make the same mistake because they make similar mistakes to that.

No QB is perfect. No one said Matt Schaub should be...But to say that another QB wouldn't have made a better play there is not true as a blanket statement IMO. I've seen QB's make better plays plenty of times when they see a blitz coming and/or feel pressure. Hell, I've seen Matt make better decisions under those circumstances.

But that's besides the point. You obviously aknowledge that it was a mistake as evidence of you using the word "mistake"...

Matt doesn't suck and I'd say overall he has good awareness.

But to say that he didn't make a mistake on that one play is not correct IMO.

NitroGSXR
11-01-2011, 06:18 PM
No QB is perfect. No one said Matt Schaub should be...But to say that another QB wouldn't have made a better play there is not true as a blanket statement IMO. I've seen QB's make better plays plenty of times when they see a blitz coming and/or feel pressure. Hell, I've seen Matt make better decisions under those circumstances.

But that's besides the point. You obviously aknowledge that it was a mistake as evidence of you using the word "mistake"...

Matt doesn't suck and I'd say overall he has good awareness.

But to say that he didn't make a mistake on that one play is not correct IMO.

Ignore me if you like but I'm curious... who do you think said that he didn't make a mistake on that play? I re-read this thread to try and understand your argument here and I still failed.

Rey
11-01-2011, 06:38 PM
Ignore me if you like but I'm curious... who do you think said that he didn't make a mistake on that play? I re-read this thread to try and understand your argument here and I still failed.

I thought maybe I was tripping...But I wasn't...

Plenty of excuse making for that play other than saying Schaub just made a mistake there....

And I don't have an argument. I just made an observation and gave my opinion.

The argument arose when folks tried to explain away his lapse in judgement there.