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mussop
10-25-2011, 11:11 PM
I know this will get laughed at but I think the combo of Reed and Barwin is going to be better than the combo of Mario and Barwin. Now we have legit speed off the edge's which is going to force QB's to step up more. Barwin had a very disruptive game this week and Reed played very comparable to what Barwin was producing when Mario was opposite him.

TexansFanatic
10-25-2011, 11:14 PM
What you're saying may be counterintuitive, but that doesn't mean it won't wind up being true.

A team is more than the sum of its parts.

steelbtexan
10-25-2011, 11:17 PM
For the $$$$ spent Barwin/Reed.

TexCanada
10-25-2011, 11:21 PM
If we can get Mario to sign a reasonable contract then I would love to keep all 3. Barwin has been fantastic so far this year.

The Cush
10-25-2011, 11:25 PM
My problem with Brooks is that he is too aggressive against the run and leaves the backside cutback wide open

Ryan
10-25-2011, 11:33 PM
My problem with Brooks is that he is too aggressive against the run and leaves the backside cutback wide open



This. The Titans only big run of the day came off of that last week with Ringer.

steelbtexan
10-25-2011, 11:34 PM
My problem with Brooks is that he is too aggressive against the run and leaves the backside cutback wide open

LOL

How many yds did C.Johnson gain last Sunday.

I'd say Reed did a great job eliminating the cutback lanes against the Tacks.

ArlingtonTexan
10-25-2011, 11:35 PM
I think people are too quick to make a final analysis on situation like this, but the Texans at least get to see if Barwin, Reed, Jamison at low $$$ is more effective than paying a legitimate, if not a bit overrated, pass rusher market money after coming off another season where injuries impacted his play. I am going to let the other nine games play out, even though my bias is against attempting to re-sign Mario.

steelbtexan
10-25-2011, 11:40 PM
I think people are too quick to make a final analysis on situation like this, but the Texans at least get to see if Barwin, Reed, Jamison at low $$$ is more effective than paying a legitimate, if not a bit overrated, pass rusher market money after coming off another season where injuries impacted his play. I am going to let the other nine games play out, even though my bias is against attempting to re-sign Mario.

Seems like a reasonable post.

We will have none that around here. LOL

The Cush
10-25-2011, 11:43 PM
LOL

How many yds did C.Johnson gain last Sunday.

I'd say Reed did a great job eliminating the cutback lanes against the Tacks.

Chris Johnson is averaging 2.9 YPC, he's not hitting that cutback against anybody.

But I've paid close attention to Reed since the preseason and it's a weakness of his. He immediately tries to crash into the middle on a run and been doing it all season long. You hardly ever see him stay at home

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 11:54 PM
I kinda liked Mario + Barwin + Reed better than Barwin + Reed + whatever we got going now.

I'm definitely for giving it more time to see how Reed & Barwin pan out, my initial observation is that there has been a serious drop off. I haven't seen Antonio Smith for 2.5 games & there's been one JJ Watt sighting in that time. Brian Cushing appears to be our best pass rusher right now.

But, Brooks is a rookie, Connor is basically in his second year. JJ is a rookie. Let's see what happens.

TexansFanatic
10-25-2011, 11:56 PM
Brooks is a rookie, Connor is basically in his second year. JJ is a rookie. Let's see what happens.

Right on. A terrific performance considering the youth.

Does the future look bright in Houston? Hope so.

bo orlando
10-26-2011, 12:01 AM
I kinda liked Mario + Barwin + Reed better than Barwin + Reed + whatever we got going now.

I'm definitely for giving it more time to see how Reed & Barwin pan out, my initial observation is that there has been a serious drop off. I haven't seen Antonio Smith for 2.5 games & there's been one JJ Watt sighting in that time. Brian Cushing appears to be our best pass rusher right now.


This is spot on. Mario attracts a level of attention and offensive gameplanning that frees up a lot of room for other guys like Smith and Watt. Reed and Barwin are nowhere near that level despite their obvious tools.

The Cush
10-26-2011, 12:15 AM
This is spot on. Mario attracts a level of attention and offensive gameplanning that frees up a lot of room for other guys like Smith and Watt. Reed and Barwin are nowhere near that level despite their obvious tools.

Cue the "Mario doesn't attract extra attention, nor do teams gameplan against him and that's just a myth" crowd in 3...2...1......

80tothezone
10-26-2011, 12:40 AM
u got to admit our whole front 7 plays better with mw on the line...A.smith gets sacks jj watt gets sacks and pressure etc. Although i will say that there are other areas where we need to spend that kinda money i.e.#2 cb/wr ... foster,tate etc...

TdotTexas2Step
10-26-2011, 12:50 AM
Sometimes, we fans get caught up in whatever is new and fresh. Reed is the new kid on the block, and so may get overly excited. And why not right? He's a high draft pick of ours and would love to see him take off.

But every single defensive coordinator in the league will tell you the Texans are better off with Mario and Barwin.

Could Barwin/Reed duo be better in the future? Of course there's always that possibility, but IMO, it probably won't work out that way, and this is coming from a big Reed fan.

Mario's elite combination of size, speed, and strength allows us to literally place him all over the front 7 and do it with success. That makes it tons easier for everyone else involved on the line and in the LB core.

Now, if you're saying having Barwin and Reed will result in the Texans fixing up the other holes in the roster to make us a better TEAM? Then for sure I'd be fine with that.

But if it's just duos, you've got to roll with Mario there instead of Reed.

Great post however, because we all know it's crossed our minds.

thunderkyss
10-26-2011, 12:58 AM
u got to admit our whole front 7 plays better with mw on the line...A.smith gets sacks jj watt gets sacks and pressure etc. Although i will say that there are other areas where we need to spend that kinda money i.e.#2 cb/wr ... foster,tate etc...

I'll admit it's hard to tell, but when Antonio was getting a sack a game through the first 4 games, but hasn't had but half a sack since Oakland...... you got to wonder what's going on.

Now, since the Raiders game we've been playing QBs who just haven't been getting sacked. Campbell had only been sacked once I think in the 4 games prior. Flacco had been sacked 5 times in 4 weeks.... Collins 7 (I'm going by memory here).

Maybe the OLs have been getting better. Hasselbeck sure as heck did a lot to make sure he didn't get sacked..... got it out quick, threw it away several times, threw it at the feet of covered receivers...

Jacksonville is ranked 28th, giving up 21 sacks on the year already. That's 3 per game

Cleveland has given up 14 sacks in 6 games 2 per game

Tampa Bay has given up 10 in 7 games 1 per game.

So we should see quite a bit of action from our front 7 against Jacksonville, not so much against Cleveland & even less against Tampa.

But we need to see more of the Dawg, he needs to step up & make it easier on Reed & Barwin, not the other way around.

gtexan02
10-26-2011, 01:00 AM
How many sacks did Mario + Barwin get?
And how many have Reed + Barwin gotten?

Or how many have the Texans gotten during those times?

Malloy
10-26-2011, 01:13 AM
How many sacks did Mario + Barwin get?
And how many have Reed + Barwin gotten?

Or how many have the Texans gotten during those times?

Also, are our player utilized different now, are we seeing a different defensive playcalling due to Mario being out?

Malloy
10-26-2011, 01:14 AM
Double post...

fiasco west
10-26-2011, 05:35 AM
Reed is more comfy at olb, and probably better at the run at this point in this defense I should add..(Mario was good against the run in the 4-3)

But Mario is a dynamic player and with him we had possibly the best pass rush in the NFL. At the very least a top 3 pass rush. It has taken a drop since Mario went out, that much is obvious.

I'm all about dynamic players. Mario is that. You win in the NFL with dynamic players. The more game changers you have the better.

TejasTom
10-26-2011, 06:54 AM
Also, are our player utilized different now, are we seeing a different defensive playcalling due to Mario being out?

Yes, they are. Mario was rushing passer at a much higher percentage than Reed. I think Reed dropped in coverage as much in the Titan's game as Mario did the 4+ games in which he played.

97roc
10-26-2011, 07:22 AM
I kinda liked Mario + Barwin + Reed better than Barwin + Reed + whatever we got going now.

I'm definitely for giving it more time to see how Reed & Barwin pan out, my initial observation is that there has been a serious drop off. I haven't seen Antonio Smith for 2.5 games & there's been one JJ Watt sighting in that time. Brian Cushing appears to be our best pass rusher right now.

But, Brooks is a rookie, Connor is basically in his second year. JJ is a rookie. Let's see what happens.

This. I bet Mario is not given a lengthy contract but he will be hit with the franchise tag. Makes sense to me.

TimeKiller
10-26-2011, 07:43 AM
The obvious answer is Mario/Barwin being more effective this year. Mario was starting to look like a monster and Barwin/Smith performed well backing that up. With the spotlight on Barwin and Smith now, with Reed backing it up....I'd say the pass rush is lesser but the defense as a whole hasn't really skipped a beat. Credit to Wade and obviously the players for that. Barwin is really rounding into form though, if Reed becomes a CB clone we'll have a serious, serious discussion about whether or not to keep Mario or try to draft another clone....

And Cushing? My god it's like he re-learned how to haul ass. I believe he juiced but come on, SOMETHING was wrong with him last year. Not running, not hitting people, not making plays. THIS is what we've needed from him. He's another big boy clone too.

thunderkyss
10-26-2011, 07:52 AM
And Cushing? My god it's like he re-learned how to haul ass. I believe he juiced but come on, SOMETHING was wrong with him last year. Not running, not hitting people, not making plays. THIS is what we've needed from him. He's another big boy clone too.

Cushing is a downhill player. So is Demeco. That doesn't mean they can't or won't play sideline to sideline, but like Foster & Tate stretch to the sideline, then take one cut & go, so do Demeco & Brian.

Almost all our players last year were downhill players, Mario, Antonio, Amobi, Kj, Glover, Pollard, Cushing, Sharpton, they all play better, make plays at or near the LOS.

I loved seeing the Texans play behind the LOS in 2009, that's what they were good at, that's what they were brought in to do. But in 2010, they were schemed to play in space..... not good for Pollard, not good for Cushing or Demeco, not good for Kj. They didn't make as many plays, they looked really, really bad.

Wade has them playing downhill, at the LOS. He's brought in players that can play & make plays in space... Jjo, Manning. He brought back McCain because that's his game, playing in space & limits the exposure of Glover, Kj, Demeco, Reed/Mario.

He's allowing our guys to use their talents to do what they do & getting great results.

:koolaid:

srrono
10-26-2011, 07:57 AM
Mario made the whole defense better period. Think about this Mario had 5 sacks in 4 and 1qtr games. Antonio had 4 1/2. Since Mario got injured, Antonio doesn't have any sacks. coincidence? Mario is one of the top in the league at putting preasure on qb.

DexmanC
10-26-2011, 08:09 AM
Mario made the whole defense better period. Think about this Mario had 5 sacks in 4 and 1qtr games. Antonio had 4 1/2. Since Mario got injured, Antonio doesn't have any sacks. coincidence? Mario is one of the top in the league at putting preasure on qb.

And we didn't see nearly as many "almost-sacks" by Mario, because
the receivers were covered much better than before. The QB had
to look past his first read, and before he could get rid of the ball,
he was down.

Rey
10-26-2011, 08:38 AM
I'm taking Mario plus whoever you want to put on the other side.

Brooks Reed still struggles to get off of blocks when linemen get their hands on him. He doesn't collapse the pocket like Mario did and he's nowhere near as good against the run.

That said, he is a rookie and is going to get plenty of playing time to show progress and improve.

But if I'm answering this question now, it's Mario.

HOU-TEX
10-26-2011, 08:48 AM
I'm taking Mario plus whoever you want to put on the other side.

Brooks Reed still struggles to get off of blocks when linemen get their hands on him. He doesn't collapse the pocket like Mario did and he's nowhere near as good against the run.

That said, he is a rookie and is going to get plenty of playing time to show progress and improve.

But if I'm answering this question now, it's Mario.

This^^

Mario was on a mission before he went down. We're still getting a little pressure on QBs, but nowhere near what we had with Mario. Honestly, imo, it's not even a close comparison at this point. Towards the end of the season, maybe.

Kthx
10-26-2011, 09:09 AM
Yeah, I have to admit I have been pretty hard on MW in the past (in real life not on the forums obviously) and kinda under rated him as a player. This year he really proved his value in the first four games, now if he could just stop getting injured it would be nice. I think Reed will step up his pass rush before the season is out though, hide and watch as my pops used to say.

hradhak
10-26-2011, 09:37 AM
I think the team is definitely better with Mario in the lineup. Mario draws the double team that now goes after Antonio. Antonio's numbers are down after Mario has been out. Antonio still get penetration but he is not taking the QB down. Mario has great numbers but his real threat is that he frees up the rest of the line to take down the QB.

In my mind, I don't think you can not resign Mario. He's a freakish athlete and as an OLB his franchise tag is lower than it would be if he were an DE. ($13 vs $10 mil). I think you need to sign him though and free up your cap room somewhere.

Anyone know how much cap space we will have next season with the increase in yearly cap room

welsh texan
10-26-2011, 10:28 AM
I got flamed in another thread when Mario went down for daring to suggest that he made it possible for those around him to make more plays.

I'm confident that our front 7 is still operating at a high level and Brooks Reed has hit the ground running and is an exciting prospect for the future who will only improve with time.

The thing is, that the loss of Mario takes us from a great unit to a good unit.

I think there will be some discussion to be had come the end of the season about what sort of contract we offer Mario, dependent on the development of the Reed/Barwin partnership, because we still have holes elsewhere and if you could get a really good DT AND CB2 by passing on Mario, AND Barwin/Reed prove to be productive by the end of the season, it will be an interesting decision to make as to which improves your team the most.

And thats coming from a huge Mario fan btw.

thunderkyss
10-26-2011, 11:07 AM
The thing is, that the loss of Mario takes us from a great unit to a good unit.


I think that is the initial perception. Jacksonville will tell us a lot. Their line is pretty bad, as bad as the lines we played with Mario (Indy, Miami, Pittsburgh) the last few lines we've played may end up pretty dang good (Oakland, Baltimore, Tennessee) it's just too early to tell.

But if Barwin, Watt, Antonio, Reed don't show up on the stat sheet after the Jags game, it will be another hint in the direction of Mario's contribution.

Mr teX
10-26-2011, 11:10 AM
anyone saying that rather have reed over barwin at this point is just being obtuse. Mario after missing what is basically 3 games is still leading the team in sacks. Since he went down, Antonio Smith has essentially disappeared.

It is true that our defense hasn't really missed a beat with him out & Reed in, but just think how much better we'd be with a player with Mario's skills & it's scary.

I'll even go so far as to say that the Raider's game turns out a little differently if mario plays the entire game. That TD that Campbell steps up into the pocket & hits chaz schilens...i have to believe that mario...or someone else as a result of the attention paid to mario stops him from stepping up in the pocket like that.

Rey
10-26-2011, 11:13 AM
anyone saying that rather have reed over barwin at this point is just being obtuse. Mario after missing what is basically 3 games is still leading the team in sacks. Since he went down, Antonio Smith has essentially disappeared..

LOL...yeah, that's a good point...

He's still one of the leaders in the NFL too...

TexansForTheW
10-26-2011, 11:22 AM
I know this will get laughed at but I think the combo of Reed and Barwin is going to be better than the combo of Mario and Barwin. Now we have legit speed off the edge's which is going to force QB's to step up more. Barwin had a very disruptive game this week and Reed played very comparable to what Barwin was producing when Mario was opposite him.

Mr. Mussop, what you've just said*... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

mussop
10-26-2011, 11:49 AM
Mr. Mussop, what you've just said*... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Wow how insightful. That has to be one of the post ever. You are talented my friend.

disaacks3
10-26-2011, 11:58 AM
How many sacks did Mario + Barwin get?
And how many have Reed + Barwin gotten?

Or how many have the Texans gotten during those times?

Cushing is a downhill player. So is Demeco. That doesn't mean they can't or won't play sideline to sideline, but like Foster & Tate stretch to the sideline, then take one cut & go, so do Demeco & Brian.

Almost all our players last year were downhill players, Mario, Antonio, Amobi, Kj, Glover, Pollard, Cushing, Sharpton, they all play better, make plays at or near the LOS.

I loved seeing the Texans play behind the LOS in 2009, that's what they were good at, that's what they were brought in to do. But in 2010, they were schemed to play in space..... not good for Pollard, not good for Cushing or Demeco, not good for Kj. They didn't make as many plays, they looked really, really bad.

Wade has them playing downhill, at the LOS. He's brought in players that can play & make plays in space... Jjo, Manning. He brought back McCain because that's his game, playing in space & limits the exposure of Glover, Kj, Demeco, Reed/Mario.

He's allowing our guys to use their talents to do what they do & getting great results.

:koolaid:

Yep, it's no accident we're #8 in Total Defense and #5 in 3rd down Percentage. Wade is delivering (so far) as promised.

mussop
10-26-2011, 12:22 PM
Yes, they are. Mario was rushing passer at a much higher percentage than Reed. I think Reed dropped in coverage as much in the Titan's game as Mario did the 4+ games in which he played.

That's because Reed didn't take Mario's place, Barwin did. Reed took Barwins spot at strong side and he has done just as good in his two starts there as Barwin did in any of his. On the flip side Barwin was as disruptive in his second start at weak OLB as Mario was in any of his. That's the problem with all the Mario jock riders around here.

When Mario gets a sack they all point at it and say see how great he is. When he doesn't it's because the other team focused solely on him so much it allowed the other players to get all the glory.

Sacks aren't near as important as being disruptive. The combo of Reed and Barwin with their speed of the edge and their ability to be interchangeable will make this D much better.

Like the Mario fans say, when he is on the field teams can shift the protection to his side. Now they won't know which way It's coming from making us faster to the ball and unpredictable.

thunderkyss
10-26-2011, 12:36 PM
When Mario gets a sack they all point at it and say see how great he is. When he doesn't it's because the other team focused solely on him so much it allowed the other players to get all the glory.

Sacks aren't near as important as being disruptive. The combo of Reed and Barwin with their speed of the edge and their ability to be interchangeable will make this D much better.


Part of Mario's disruption allowed everyone else to get off, get sacks & disrupt... what we're saying here, is that we're not seeing Antonio, Watt, or Barwin causing as much havoc as they did when Mario was in the game.


It's not nut hugging, it's an observation. We've had one JJWatt sighting in three games. .5 sacks from Antonio & basically a no show anywhere else during that time.

& we're all giving Barwin & Reed time to grow into their positions, we're just saying where Mario was playing before the injury, to what we're getting out of the DL.... big difference.

TexansForTheW
10-26-2011, 12:51 PM
Wow how insightful. That has to be one of the post ever. You are talented my friend.

LOL, I just didn't agree with what you said. I don't think your an ***** at all, just optimistic. Nothing wrong with that at all in my opinion. I just felt like busting out my favorite movie quote.

Ndevine7
10-26-2011, 01:02 PM
LOL, I just didn't agree with what you said. I don't think your an ***** at all, just optimistic. Nothing wrong with that at all in my opinion. I just felt like busting out my favorite movie quote.

Im guessing he didnt get the Billy Madison reference

Hervoyel
10-26-2011, 01:08 PM
Mario was taken from us just as he was starting to really take off I think. The entire defense is playing much better now but that was destined to happen whether Mario played or not. We just got better as we got deeper into the season. Now Reed has come in and he's going to need time to adjust. Barwin is going to need time to adjust. Antonio tore it up at the start of the season but he's now caught the attention of OC's around the league and he no longer can count on the extra attention that was being paid to Mario. If Barwin keeps improving he'll start to get that kind of attention too.

All the while we just keep getting better on that side of the ball.

I hope it is possible to keep Mario Williams. I think he was heading for DeMarcus Ware type numbers and effect. I think Mario + Barwin + Reed ( + Watt + Smith + Cushing) is going to be an impossible problem for offenses in the next couple of years if we can keep it together.

dalemurphy
10-26-2011, 01:18 PM
Mario was taken from us just as he was starting to really take off I think. The entire defense is playing much better now but that was destined to happen whether Mario played or not. We just got better as we got deeper into the season. Now Reed has come in and he's going to need time to adjust. Barwin is going to need time to adjust. Antonio tore it up at the start of the season but he's now caught the attention of OC's around the league and he no longer can count on the extra attention that was being paid to Mario. If Barwin keeps improving he'll start to get that kind of attention too.

All the while we just keep getting better on that side of the ball.

I hope it is possible to keep Mario Williams. I think he was heading for DeMarcus Ware type numbers and effect. I think Mario + Barwin + Reed ( + Watt + Smith + Cushing) is going to be an impossible problem for offenses in the next couple of years if we can keep it together.


Mario has had significant injury problems in 4 of his 6 years. He has an unremarkable motor. He has very limited ability in coverage. ...

The Texans are about to pay the following: Arian Foster, Connor Barwin, Duane Brown.... all significantly more money than they have been making. They also have to renew Schaub's contract this off-season (FA in 2013). It just seems impractical to give Mario a huge deal with all these other bills coming due. Not to mention, if they do have the money, I'd rather them go after another FA defensive back.

All that being said, if Mario does come back healthy and motivated next year, I would not be surprised to see him have a 13 or 14 sack season.

TexansForTheW
10-26-2011, 01:23 PM
Im guessing he didnt get the Billy Madison reference

He took it hard lol.

Rey
10-26-2011, 01:24 PM
He has very limited ability in coverage...


Being more flexible doesn't always make you a better player.

I see you keep harping on this, but it doesn't really mean much.

Mr teX
10-26-2011, 01:25 PM
Part of Mario's disruption allowed everyone else to get off, get sacks & disrupt... what we're saying here, is that we're not seeing Antonio, Watt, or Barwin causing as much havoc as they did when Mario was in the game.


It's not nut hugging, it's an observation. We've had one JJWatt sighting in three games. .5 sacks from Antonio & basically a no show anywhere else during that time.

& we're all giving Barwin & Reed time to grow into their positions, we're just saying where Mario was playing before the injury, to what we're getting out of the DL.... big difference.

Exactly...don't know why its so hard for some to see this.

mussop
10-26-2011, 01:27 PM
He took it hard lol.

Sorry didnt catch that. :)

The Cush
10-26-2011, 01:42 PM
Being more flexible doesn't always make you a better player.

I see you keep harping on this, but it doesn't really mean much.

Exactly. Terrel Suggs, James Harrison, Demarcus Ware, etc..are all limited in what they can do in coverage, but why would you want them in coverage anyways? Their strength and Mario's is to get after the quarterback. If you were to build a team with a 3-4 defense, and you filled your OLB's (especially the one designated to be the main pass rusher) with coverage guys then they better be elite at that because you will need a sundial to time how long the opposing quarterback has to throw.

mussop
10-26-2011, 01:42 PM
Exactly...don't know why its so hard for some to see this.

Because it's not true. Barwin was all over the field. Smith caused a int/ td. Wat had several good stops. We dominated on defense nearly shutting them out. What about Cushing? Mario's absence didn't seem to affect his game.

Teams make adjustments to stop what other teams are doing successful and that opens up things for other players. That's more if what you're seeing than what any of the Mario lovers have described.

And of course Mario racked up some sacks in the first four games. What no one wants to recognize is that it came against 4 OL's that were either banged up or not that good. Out of all Mario's sacks this season, only one came from him making a solid technique move and that was against a TE Dallas Clark.

He played the run really well but was not a disruptive player like all his fans want you to believe. By the end of the year Barwin will make everyone forget about Mario and the combo of reed and Barwin will be more beneficial to this team than Mario and Barwin ever could of.

The Cush
10-26-2011, 01:49 PM
Because it's not true. Barwin was all over the field. Smith caused a int/ td. Wat had several good stops. We dominated on defense nearly shutting them out. What about Cushing? Mario's absence didn't seem to affect his game.

Teams make adjustments to stop what other teams are doing successful and that opens up things for other players. That's more if what you're seeing than what any of the Mario lovers have described.

And of course Mario racked up some sacks in the first four games. What no one wants to recognize is that it came against 4 OL's that were either banged up or not that good. Out of all Mario's sacks this season, only one came from him making a solid technique move and that was against a TE Dallas Clark.

He played the run really well but was not a disruptive player like all his fans want you to believe. By the end of the year Barwin will make everyone forget about Mario and the combo of reed and Barwin will be more beneficial to this team than Mario and Barwin ever could of.

This is the classic undersell of Mario. Everything he has done is because the guys lined up across for him are bad or are injured. Just give the man his credit when credit is due.

And how you are so sure that a combo of Brooks Reed and Connor Barwin will be "more beneficial" to this team than Barwin/Mario is beyond me, when the reason you feel that way is because of Barwin who happens to be the common variable among the 2 duos? You're basically saying Reed is better than Mario...

fiasco west
10-26-2011, 02:04 PM
anyone saying that rather have reed over barwin at this point is just being obtuse. Mario after missing what is basically 3 games is still leading the team in sacks. Since he went down, Antonio Smith has essentially disappeared.

It is true that our defense hasn't really missed a beat with him out & Reed in, but just think how much better we'd be with a player with Mario's skills & it's scary.

I'll even go so far as to say that the Raider's game turns out a little differently if mario plays the entire game. That TD that Campbell steps up into the pocket & hits chaz schilens...i have to believe that mario...or someone else as a result of the attention paid to mario stops him from stepping up in the pocket like that.

It would have been a different game because QBs like Campbell fold when under pressure...and he was doing pretty bad out there until Mario went out and he started to get more time and made some plays.

Mario was a gamechanger and playmaker, you don't let those guys go just fore a more cheaper option.

dalemurphy
10-26-2011, 02:15 PM
Being more flexible doesn't always make you a better player.

I see you keep harping on this, but it doesn't really mean much.

I'm not saying Reed is better than Mario... Of course he isn't yet. But, flexibility for a 3-4 OLB is a very valuable commodity. Reed's skill set allows more disguise for the defense. I believe that added element will largely make up for the loss of Mario (barring further injury losses to DEs and OLBs)... by the way, it will more than do that for the 5 or 6 games each season that Mario simply doesn't show up to play.

DX-TEX
10-26-2011, 02:19 PM
Doesnt really matter, Wade and his staff know how to coach players up. Peter King REALLY likes Reed:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/10/25/Texans/index.html?sct=nfl_wr_a3

Making up for the missing Williams, rookies J.J. Watt and Brooks Reed (mark my words -- he's going to be a very good NFL pass-rusher) had Houston's two sacks, and the Texans held Tennessee to 148 yards.

Rey
10-26-2011, 02:29 PM
But, flexibility for a 3-4 OLB is a very valuable commodity.

Depends on how you are running your defense. In Wade's defense one of his OLB's rushes a majority of the time while the other one drops into coverage more.

Reed's skill set allows more disguise for the defense.

His skill set?

What is his skill set?

Is he great in coverage or something?


I believe that added element will largely make up for the loss of Mario (barring further injury losses to DEs and OLBs)... by the way, it will more than do that for the 5 or 6 games each season that Mario simply doesn't show up to play.

I don't believe that Reed will "make up for" not having Mario. I think he is capable of being a good player, but he will need some time.

In Wade's scheme you pretty much know that one OLB is coming a majority of the time anyways so even if Reed is good in coverage (which I don't know that he is) it doesn't add any more of an element of surprise IMO.

Mr teX
10-26-2011, 02:42 PM
Because it's not true. Barwin was all over the field. Smith caused a int/ td. Wat had several good stops. We dominated on defense nearly shutting them out. What about Cushing? Mario's absence didn't seem to affect his game.

Teams make adjustments to stop what other teams are doing successful and that opens up things for other players. That's more if what you're seeing than what any of the Mario lovers have described.

And of course Mario racked up some sacks in the first four games. What no one wants to recognize is that it came against 4 OL's that were either banged up or not that good. Out of all Mario's sacks this season, only one came from him making a solid technique move and that was against a TE Dallas Clark.

He played the run really well but was not a disruptive player like all his fans want you to believe. By the end of the year Barwin will make everyone forget about Mario and the combo of reed and Barwin will be more beneficial to this team than Mario and Barwin ever could of.



This is a joke & pure haterade-sipping.... especially the bolded mainly b/c there is absolutely nothing that has been seen or done on the field thus far that has indicated this is quite possible.

2nd, the things you're knocking Mario on, Barwin was on the field opposite of him playing against the same not-so good / banged up OL too & dude still wasn't even really a factor.

Furthermore, when someone is being as "disruptive" as you claim Barwin has been all along, it usually translates into stats in some kind of way, Barwin is no where in any meaningful kind of stat thus far this year....period.

It's pretty obvious to everyone except you that Mario being on the field makes us better, but whatever, you can keep on being the smartest guy in the room....i'll roll with Wade on this one.

badboy
10-26-2011, 02:43 PM
I think the team is definitely better with Mario in the lineup. Mario draws the double team that now goes after Antonio. Antonio's numbers are down after Mario has been out. Antonio still get penetration but he is not taking the QB down. Mario has great numbers but his real threat is that he frees up the rest of the line to take down the QB.

In my mind, I don't think you can not resign Mario. He's a freakish athlete and as an OLB his franchise tag is lower than it would be if he were an DE. ($13 vs $10 mil). I think you need to sign him though and free up your cap room somewhere.

Anyone know how much cap space we will have next season with the increase in yearly cap roomNot known ntil NFL sets it next year pre-season.

Mr teX
10-26-2011, 02:53 PM
i'm not saying reed is better than mario... Of course he isn't yet. But, flexibility for a 3-4 olb is a very valuable commodity. Reed's skill set allows more disguise for the defense. I believe that added element will largely make up for the loss of mario (barring further injury losses to des and olbs)... By the way, it will more than do that for the 5 or 6 games each season that mario simply doesn't show up to play.


We. Dont. Run. A. Traditional. 3-4.

Flexibility is a + for every team, period. The more any 1 player can do the better for him & the team. You guys keep trying to pigeon-hole this defense as the tradtional 3-4 & Wade's defense isn't that. Will it really matter that much more if Reed/Barwin drop back 2-3 more times than Mario would at the OLB position? The answer is likely no b/c at the end of the day, you want those guys doing what they do best....which is rushing the passer. & when it comes to that we already know Mario was the best on the team at it going in & he was more than proving he was the best at it this year even though it was from a different position.

fiasco west
10-26-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm not saying Reed is better than Mario... Of course he isn't yet. But, flexibility for a 3-4 OLB is a very valuable commodity. Reed's skill set allows more disguise for the defense. I believe that added element will largely make up for the loss of Mario (barring further injury losses to DEs and OLBs)... by the way, it will more than do that for the 5 or 6 games each season that Mario simply doesn't show up to play.

The best part about Mario is that you can tell the oline he's coming and they can do nothing about it. You don't even have to disguise or hide him...

Also I don't see the same games you see where Mario doesn't show up. I'm guessing you are talking about games he didn't have a sack though.

dalemurphy
10-26-2011, 03:43 PM
The best part about Mario is that you can tell the oline he's coming and they can do nothing about it. You don't even have to disguise or hide him...

Also I don't see the same games you see where Mario doesn't show up. I'm guessing you are talking about games he didn't have a sack though.

No, I'm talking about games where he is content to hand-slap with tight ends or tackles (in one on one situations) at the line of scrimmage. Last year, the best example was the San Diego game, though there were others.

This year, he had a no-show vs. New Orleans. Particularly condemning was a seal block that Robert Meachem put on Mario, leading to a 30 yard TD run by Darren Sproles.

thunderkyss
10-26-2011, 04:30 PM
I hope it is possible to keep Mario Williams. I think he was heading for DeMarcus Ware type numbers and effect. I think Mario + Barwin + Reed ( + Watt + Smith + Cushing) is going to be an impossible problem for offenses in the next couple of years if we can keep it together.

I like Demeco, & I think he'll be back to 100% or close to it soon. But lets say he's not.

Do you think Reed can move inside when Mario comes back next year? What about Brahman?

mussop
10-26-2011, 08:28 PM
This is the classic undersell of Mario. Everything he has done is because the guys lined up across for him are bad or are injured. Just give the man his credit when credit is due.

And how you are so sure that a combo of Brooks Reed and Connor Barwin will be "more beneficial" to this team than Barwin/Mario is beyond me, when the reason you feel that way is because of Barwin who happens to be the common variable among the 2 duos? You're basically saying Reed is better than Mario...

I do give him credit where credit is due. I have said Mario plays the run very well. He holds the edge and turns things inside as good as any OLB out there. That is what he does well. Rushing the passer as a speed rusher is not something he does well. He is not quick off the line. In fact he has a terrible habit of taking a false step when he was rushing from the standup position. Although he was improving on that he still hadn't totally fixed it.

Like I have said all along, he needs to be inside playing DE where he could dominate less talented Guards like what Smith does. But I forgot, the only reason Smith does that is because teams are so scared of Mario that they just ignore all the other players huh?

The reason I believe Barwin and Reed will be better is (once again) because now teams won't be able to predict where the rush is going to come from as easy. And the combo both have the skill set to beat their blockers off the line adding another element for QB's to fear.

mussop
10-26-2011, 08:35 PM
This is a joke & pure haterade-sipping.... especially the bolded mainly b/c there is absolutely nothing that has been seen or done on the field thus far that has indicated this is quite possible.

2nd, the things you're knocking Mario on, Barwin was on the field opposite of him playing against the same not-so good / banged up OL too & dude still wasn't even really a factor.

Furthermore, when someone is being as "disruptive" as you claim Barwin has been all along, it usually translates into stats in some kind of way, Barwin is no where in any meaningful kind of stat thus far this year....period.

It's pretty obvious to everyone except you that Mario being on the field makes us better, but whatever, you can keep on being the smartest guy in the room....i'll roll with Wade on this one.

Barwin was on the opposite side of Mario playing a completely different role. I guess you don't understand that Mario was coming 98% of the time while Barwin was in coverage or taking on other responsibilities.

These responsibilities also contribute to lower stats just as Mario's lack of them contributes to him getting more. And I never wanted Mario off the field to begin with. I just wanted him playing where his talents would be most benificial to the team, DE.

mussop
10-26-2011, 08:37 PM
The best part about Mario is that you can tell the oline he's coming and they can do nothing about it. You don't even have to disguise or hide him...

Also I don't see the same games you see where Mario doesn't show up. I'm guessing you are talking about games he didn't have a sack though.

You love Mario don't you? :good:

The Cush
10-26-2011, 08:49 PM
I do give him credit where credit is due. I have said Mario plays the run very well. He holds the edge and turns things inside as good as any OLB out there. That is what he does well. Rushing the passer as a speed rusher is not something he does well. He is not quick off the line. In fact he has a terrible habit of taking a false step when he was rushing from the standup position. Although he was improving on that he still hadn't totally fixed it.

Like I have said all along, he needs to be inside playing DE where he could dominate less talented Guards like what Smith does. But I forgot, the only reason Smith does that is because teams are so scared of Mario that they just ignore all the other players huh?

The reason I believe Barwin and Reed will be better is (once again) because now teams won't be able to predict where the rush is going to come from as easy. And the combo both have the skill set to beat their blockers off the line adding another element for QB's to fear.

I don't know about you but 5 sacks in 4.25 games showed to me that he was really committed to learning that OLB position. It's a shame he got hurt because he really was steadily improving as the weeks went on and was in for a big season.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again, Smith has been beasting it this year and deserves all the credit in the world for his play. I believe Mario makes everyone better but I also believe guys like Antonio and Cushing, etc. deserve their own credit because at the end of the day they still have to put up results and that's on them. I'm not going to undersell players like Mario and say he's gone against trash or Antonio and say he's a product of other players, that's just slapping players in the face based on how you want to perceive things

Rey
10-26-2011, 09:59 PM
Mario was playing from a 3pt a lot.

Why are folks acting brand new?

Folks keep comparing him to reed and then in the next breath acknowledge they are playing different roles?

I keep hearing all these attributes/skill sets about reed and barwin and other more nimble but that says nothing about effectiveness. I dont know how Mario was going to do over the course of the season, but through the few games he played in he was very good overall.

Funny how the tone has changed from Mario sucking at lb to thinking others are more suited for the role. Gotta find a way to be right I guess.

silvrhand
10-26-2011, 10:02 PM
You love Mario don't you? :good:

Wait Wait let me put on my glasses first..

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5yL31O_PDzY/TNN8up27yGI/AAAAAAAADcI/xNVjpwJzBZM/s800/mario-goggles.jpg

BigBull17
10-26-2011, 10:12 PM
I like Demeco, & I think he'll be back to 100% or close to it soon. But lets say he's not.

Do you think Reed can move inside when Mario comes back next year? What about Brahman?

If any of our OLBs could play MLB, it's Barwin. However, Sharpton would get that spot if Demeco is gone. Dudes a beast. I could see a depth guy or too as well. No one is getting Cush of the field, short of a piss test. He is the leader of our D now, IMO

Mr teX
10-26-2011, 10:53 PM
I do give him credit where credit is due. I have said Mario plays the run very well. He holds the edge and turns things inside as good as any OLB out there. That is what he does well. Rushing the passer as a speed rusher is not something he does well. He is not quick off the line. In fact he has a terrible habit of taking a false step when he was rushing from the standup position. Although he was improving on that he still hadn't totally fixed it.

Like I have said all along, he needs to be inside playing DE where he could dominate less talented Guards like what Smith does. But I forgot, the only reason Smith does that is because teams are so scared of Mario that they just ignore all the other players huh?

The reason I believe Barwin and Reed will be better is (once again) because now teams won't be able to predict where the rush is going to come from as easy. And the combo both have the skill set to beat their blockers off the line adding another element for QB's to fear.


teams are always going to pay more attention to the most dangerous pass rusher unless they felt like their guys could handle them 1 on 1. even if the guy opposite him is pretty good. freeney's the main guy for indy, but u know what, mathis isn't too shabby either. but who do u think teams are gonna pay more attention to?

& u know another way to make the rush more unpredictable? if other guys around mario stepped up from the positions wade had them playing already. that was happening when mario was on the field....not as much now that he's been out. there's no way u can explain that away, other than his prescence required more attention.


& blinding speed is not the only ingredient to rushing the passer dude...how many guys have been drafted over the years to rush the passer b/ c they have "speed off the edge" only to flame out in the nfl for 1 reason or another?

EllisUnit
10-26-2011, 11:43 PM
I know this will get laughed at but I think the combo of Reed and Barwin is going to be better than the combo of Mario and Barwin. Now we have legit speed off the edge's which is going to force QB's to step up more. Barwin had a very disruptive game this week and Reed played very comparable to what Barwin was producing when Mario was opposite him.

Really. Mario is pretty damn quick plus he has the mixture of power to go along with his speed. I have to kindly disagree with you. Not only is mario fast and strong, he demands more attention than reed ever will and gives all the other D-Line guys opportunities.

dalemurphy
10-27-2011, 04:35 AM
Mario was playing from a 3pt a lot.

Why are folks acting brand new?

Folks keep comparing him to reed and then in the next breath acknowledge they are playing different roles?

I keep hearing all these attributes/skill sets about reed and barwin and other more nimble but that says nothing about effectiveness. I dont know how Mario was going to do over the course of the season, but through the few games he played in he was very good overall.

Funny how the tone has changed from Mario sucking at lb to thinking others are more suited for the role. Gotta find a way to be right I guess.

The "nimbleness" you mention allows for more disguise from the defense which causes more confusion for the opposing quarterback. The fact that Mario was playing from a 3 point stance only highlights this point. The Texans were declaring who the fourth rusher was going to be way more often than they do now.

Mario doesn't suck. I don't know that I have seen anyone say that he does. Mario doesn't stay healthy. Mario doesn't always come to play. Mario's motor isn't anything like Antonio Smith's. Mario gets paid too much. Mario is a better suited to play the 5 technique than OLB.

I wish he was healthy. My point, after the injury, was that the Texans (barring further injuries) would be able to continue to play good defense without him and that there were others on the team that would be a much greater loss. I had created a list that agitated people of such players:

Matt Schaub
Arian Foster
Andre Johnson
Duane Brown
Eric Winston
Chris Myers
Antonio Smith
Brian Cushing
J.J. Watt

perhaps the following as well:

Connor Barwin
Wade Smith
Danieal Manning
James Casey
Demeco Ryans


That's not a list of players that are "better". It is a list of players that are more crucial to the success of the 2011 Texans. For instance, Winston needs to stay healthy because Butler is on the I.R. and Newton is his backup. James Casey is valuable because he is vastly better than Vickers and offers a set of skills at the position that the Texans can utilize when teams attempt to shutdown AJ and the running game (see N. Orleans game).

dalemurphy
10-27-2011, 04:48 AM
teams are always going to pay more attention to the most dangerous pass rusher unless they felt like their guys could handle them 1 on 1. even if the guy opposite him is pretty good. freeney's the main guy for indy, but u know what, mathis isn't too shabby either. but who do u think teams are gonna pay more attention to?

& u know another way to make the rush more unpredictable? if other guys around mario stepped up from the positions wade had them playing already. that was happening when mario was on the field....not as much now that he's been out. there's no way u can explain that away, other than his prescence required more attention.


& blinding speed is not the only ingredient to rushing the passer dude...how many guys have been drafted over the years to rush the passer b/ c they have "speed off the edge" only to flame out in the nfl for 1 reason or another?


Mario has not developed the pass rushing moves of Freeney, Mathis, Woodley, Harrison, KVB, Cliff Avril, Julius Peppers, Jason Babin, or another 20 guys I could name that are outside rushers. He can't dip his shoulder and turn the corner sharply on a speed rusher. He has no spin move. He doesn't really have a counter to the inside. After six years, he can do two things: he can get to the outside shoulder of the blocker with speed and beat his outside half with strength and get to the QB. Or, he can bull rush. That's really it. Still, he's pretty darn good when he's playing with energy. At times, he can be great. However, combine his inability to drop into coverage effectively, and those are not the skills of a premier OLB.

Regarding pressure since Mario has been out: the Texans pressured Flacco a great deal. They didn't get much pressure on Tennessee but that was Tennessee scheme (max protection) that caused that. Plus, the Texans were committed to stopping the run first.

Finally, the idea that Mario was attracting so much attention from the opposing team is a myth. Schematically, he was lined up on the side without a TE. The Texans system was designed to put him where he could have 1 on 1 matchups. They did this because the OLB on the strong side needs to be able to drop into coverage sometimes and Mario can't do that effectively. Also, since everyone on the planet knows he is going to rush every play, they would keep him on the side of the defense that would be most effective for that single purpose.

Lucky
10-27-2011, 06:38 AM
Finally, the idea that Mario was attracting so much attention from the opposing team is a myth. Schematically, he was lined up on the side without a TE. The Texans system was designed to put him where he could have 1 on 1 matchups. They did this because the OLB on the strong side needs to be able to drop into coverage sometimes and Mario can't do that effectively. Also, since everyone on the planet knows he is going to rush every play, they would keep him on the side of the defense that would be most effective for that single purpose.
I don't get this. Because Wade Phillips designed the defense to free up pass rushers to get to the QB, this is somehow a knock on Williams? Had Williams not gotten to the QB, then yeah, that would've looked bad. But that's not what happened.

The Texans will keep Mario Williams. Either via the franchise tag, or to a long term contract. Reed is not as good as Williams. Barwin is not as good as Williams. So, how can Barwin & Reed be better than Williams and either Barwin or Reed? There's your "myth".

thunderkyss
10-27-2011, 07:49 AM
Bottom line,

Antonio was playing better over the first 3 games. (Colts, Dolphins, New Orleans)

He has not been playing as well since (Raiders, Pittsburgh,Baltimore, Tennessee)

I've mentioned the improvement in opponent over the last 4 games as a possible reason.

I've mentioned the drop off in our opponents over the next three games (Jacksonville, Cleveland, Tampa Bay) as an opportunity to see what's what.

I personally think Antonio needs to step up & be that force that allows the other guys to get free. Some people think he's already playing at that level.

We'll see.

Rey
10-27-2011, 08:12 AM
The "nimbleness" you mention allows for more disguise from the defense which causes more confusion for the opposing quarterback.

No it doesn't. IMO.

Mario doesn't have to be as nimble as Reed to be dropped into coverage. You can still disguise your defense.........if we wanted to.....

But you keep talking about Wade's defense like it's the old Patriots defense...

He uses one OLB to rush the majority of the time...Right now that OLB is Barwin.

Barwin is the new Mario and Reed is the old Barwin.

Mr teX
10-27-2011, 09:13 AM
Mario has not developed the pass rushing moves of Freeney, Mathis, Woodley, Harrison, KVB, Cliff Avril, Julius Peppers, Jason Babin, or another 20 guys I could name that are outside rushers. He can't dip his shoulder and turn the corner sharply on a speed rusher. He has no spin move. He doesn't really have a counter to the inside. After six years, he can do two things: he can get to the outside shoulder of the blocker with speed and beat his outside half with strength and get to the QB. Or, he can bull rush. That's really it. Still, he's pretty darn good when he's playing with energy. At times, he can be great. However, combine his inability to drop into coverage effectively, and those are not the skills of a premier OLB.

Regarding pressure since Mario has been out: the Texans pressured Flacco a great deal. They didn't get much pressure on Tennessee but that was Tennessee scheme (max protection) that caused that. Plus, the Texans were committed to stopping the run first.

Finally, the idea that Mario was attracting so much attention from the opposing team is a myth. Schematically, he was lined up on the side without a TE. The Texans system was designed to put him where he could have 1 on 1 matchups. They did this because the OLB on the strong side needs to be able to drop into coverage sometimes and Mario can't do that effectively. Also, since everyone on the planet knows he is going to rush every play, they would keep him on the side of the defense that would be most effective for that single purpose.


I don't understand your point at all. #1, When you're the teams premier rusher, offenses assume you're coming 98% of the time anyway b/c.......what for it.......that is what you do. & in that regard, extra attention is going to be paid to you no matter what you do. How many times have we heard from qb's & coaches in the pre-game "we must know where insert name here is at all times...."

2nd, who cares if he doesn't have a bevy of moves to get to the qb....by your own admission he's still damn good getting there with his "limited" moves. Stop getting preoccupied with how pretty he looks. Just like u guys like to say with Kubiak, the only thing that matters is the results...& the results say for mario that he's gotten there more than anyone for the texans in years past.....& judging by how he started out this year, he was likely going to continue that trend................at OLB.

Going by your rationale, i guess Ware isn't as good as everyone says he is b/c the scheme is set up for him to do the damage he does.....his spin move is also not that great either.

Dutchrudder
10-27-2011, 09:18 AM
For the money, I would much rather see Arian signed to a longterm deal and get a competent #2 WR with the money that would otherwise be spent re-signing Mario. I don't see him getting less than 9 mill a year guaranteed + incentives.

Rey
10-27-2011, 11:54 AM
For the money, I would much rather see Arian signed to a longterm deal and get a competent #2 WR with the money that would otherwise be spent re-signing Mario. I don't see him getting less than 9 mill a year guaranteed + incentives.

I'd rather re-sign Mario and Arian and Draft a #2.

The Cush
10-27-2011, 12:29 PM
I don't understand your point at all. #1, When you're the teams premier rusher, offenses assume you're coming 98% of the time anyway b/c.......what for it.......that is what you do. & in that regard, extra attention is going to be paid to you no matter what you do. How many times have we heard from qb's & coaches in the pre-game "we must know where insert name here is at all times...."


That's just part of the propaganda, hyping up the myth that teams don't view Mario as a threat. Those QB's, offensive linemen, TV analysts, and coaches, the ones that break down every single snap, they don't know what they are talking about apparently....

TejasTom
10-27-2011, 12:33 PM
However, Sharpton would get that spot if Demeco is gone. Dudes a beast.

I heard on speculation on the radio that Sharpton could be starter on some teams right now.

The Cush
10-27-2011, 12:55 PM
Mario has not developed the pass rushing moves of Freeney, Mathis, Woodley, Harrison, KVB, Cliff Avril, Julius Peppers, Jason Babin, or another 20 guys I could name that are outside rushers. He can't dip his shoulder and turn the corner sharply on a speed rusher. He has no spin move. He doesn't really have a counter to the inside. After six years, he can do two things: he can get to the outside shoulder of the blocker with speed and beat his outside half with strength and get to the QB. Or, he can bull rush. That's really it. Still, he's pretty darn good when he's playing with energy. At times, he can be great. However, combine his inability to drop into coverage effectively, and those are not the skills of a premier OLB.


Mario had 5 sacks in 4.25 games, who cares if he only has "2 moves" if those 2 moves work? You also bring up guys like Freeney and Mathis, and even Jason Babin who plays a Wide 9 technique, those guys are 1 dimentional pass rushers and even with their extensive toolbox of moves, it doesn't help them play the run. Mario was picking up the sacks AND effectively playing the run and you talk about how you want a well-rounded OLB. He's also only played the position for only so many months and was constantly improving, but you keep making referencing that he plays with low energy.

Wade Phillips said that Demarcus Ware only dropped back into coverage like 5% of his entire snaps. Why would you want your premier pass rusher dropping back into coverage? Just because it looks cool having them step up to the line then drop back where their game is less effective? Have you seen James Harrison and Terrell Suggs drop back into coverage? It's not pretty nor is it effective, for them or the entire team to play away from their strengths. Why exactly would this team need to disguise which OLB was coming anyways, when they were among the league leaders of getting to the quarterback? Teams knew who was coming and couldn't stop our rush, that's the bottom line that seems to elude you.

Brooks Reed has been pretty non-existent this season but that's OK because apparently he can effectively drop back into coverage, something I haven't seen yet. He picked up a sack against the Titans after the QB held the ball for 15 seconds. Brooks MIGHT be a more well-rounded OLB, but that doesn't matter if he's just OK in every category.

Judging a 3-4's primary rush linebacker on their coverage skills is like judging Darrelle Revis or Ed Reed on their ability to blitz the quarterback. It's just nitpicking

Texans_Chick
10-27-2011, 03:20 PM
FWIW, check out this info from 10/27:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-look-at-some-non-first-rounders/

"With Mario Williams going down, Brooks Reed (-0.2) had some big shoes to fill. You canít expect the second rounder to replicate what Williams can do, but look at these numbers; Williams picked up 24 combined sacks, hits and pressures on his 126 pass rushes. Reed has eight on 115 rushes. That kind of disparity may come back to haunt the Texans."

PFF's numbers are not the be-all, end-all, but are pretty interesting.

The biggest concern I have is that as playmakers go down, it reduces flexibility and margin for error. Sometimes as backups get more snaps, it exposes their weaknesses and just increases their opportunity for injury.

In other words, we need to wrap the remaining OLB's in bubble wrap.

mussop
10-27-2011, 04:10 PM
FWIW, check out this info from 10/27:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-look-at-some-non-first-rounders/



PFF's numbers are not the be-all, end-all, but are pretty interesting.
.

Ok you're going to e plain to me where the hell they got these numbers from. How has Reed who only has 2 starts under his belt have 115 rushes already while mostly playing the strong side while Mario has 124 in 4.2 games? The numbers don't add up.

Not to mention they obviously don't realize it's Barwin they need to be comparing Mario's numbers with since he is actually the one that took Mario's position over.

If they/ you want a real comparison they need to match up what Barwin has done since the move compared to Mario and what Reed has don compared to what Barwin did before the move. Until the do that their numbers are a waste of time looking at.

thunderkyss
10-27-2011, 04:19 PM
If they/ you want a real comparison they need to match up what Barwin has done since the move compared to Mario and what Reed has don compared to what Barwin did before the move. Until the do that their numbers are a waste of time looking at.

I'd like to see comparison numbers of the entire front 5, with & without Mario.

mussop
10-27-2011, 04:37 PM
I'd like to see comparison numbers of the entire front 5, with & without Mario.

YES!! This also!

76Texan
10-27-2011, 05:17 PM
Ok you're going to e plain to me where the hell they got these numbers from. How has Reed who only has 2 starts under his belt have 115 rushes already while mostly playing the strong side while Mario has 124 in 4.2 games? The numbers don't add up.

Not to mention they obviously don't realize it's Barwin they need to be comparing Mario's numbers with since he is actually the one that took Mario's position over.

If they/ you want a real comparison they need to match up what Barwin has done since the move compared to Mario and what Reed has don compared to what Barwin did before the move. Until the do that their numbers are a waste of time looking at.

It's not a true comparison, TK; but I can believe the number of rushes accounted for.

Reed had played since game one (for a total of 7 games) while Mario only played 4.2 games.

Rey
10-27-2011, 05:21 PM
It's not a true comparison, TK; but I can believe the number of rushes accounted for.

Reed had played since game one (for a total of 7 games) while Mario only played 4.2 games.

The numbers looked a little fishy to me too, but you are probably right...

And it's not talking about the number of snaps it's just talking about pass plays..

76Texan
10-27-2011, 05:40 PM
The numbers looked a little fishy to me too, but you are probably right...

And it's not talking about the number of snaps it's just talking about pass plays..

Basically, we played mostly with Mario, Barwin, and Reed as OLBs before Mario got hurt.

After that, Barwin and Reed received a lot of snaps (and therefore, pass rushes).

mussop
10-27-2011, 05:54 PM
It's not a true comparison, TK; but I can believe the number of rushes accounted for.

Reed had played since game one (for a total of 7 games) while Mario only played 4.2 games.

I still dont believe he numbers are right. Mario started 4 games and played most of the first quarter of th raiders game. You're telling me Reed in relief duty in those first 4 games and one quarter (if he played any snaps in that quarter) and in the last 2 games playing the strong side (which doesn't rush much) he has accumulated only 9 less total rush attempts than Mario who rushes nearly every snap?

I'm just finding it hard to believe. However tennessee did throw the ball alot but dam.

mussop
10-27-2011, 05:56 PM
I'd like to see comparison numbers of the entire front 5, with & without Mario.

Actually make it the front seven.

thunderkyss
10-27-2011, 06:02 PM
Actually make it the front seven.

I know they work as a group, but I'm really interested in the "DL" at the moment.

The front seven numbers would also be nice to see, but for different reasons.

76Texan
10-27-2011, 06:14 PM
I still dont believe he numbers are right. Mario started 4 games and played most of the first quarter of th raiders game. You're telling me Reed in relief duty in those first 4 games and one quarter (if he played any snaps in that quarter) and in the last 2 games playing the strong side (which doesn't rush much) he has accumulated only 9 less total rush attempts than Mario who rushes nearly every snap?

I'm just finding it hard to believe. However tennessee did throw the ball alot but dam.

Obviously, we have to go back and look at all of the plays.
What I can tell you is that I took screen shots of every defensive plays of the first four games.
I didn't count them, but I did notice that Reed was in there quite a bit.

He spelled both Mario and Barwin (ie., he played both SAM and WILL).

And let's not forget that both OLBs can rush on the same play.
The SS or the MIKE would pick up the TE in that case.

leebigeztx
10-28-2011, 02:09 AM
I still dont believe he numbers are right. Mario started 4 games and played most of the first quarter of th raiders game. You're telling me Reed in relief duty in those first 4 games and one quarter (if he played any snaps in that quarter) and in the last 2 games playing the strong side (which doesn't rush much) he has accumulated only 9 less total rush attempts than Mario who rushes nearly every snap?

I'm just finding it hard to believe. However tennessee did throw the ball alot but dam.

Of course not, but from following pff, they do more than their share of homework. They put out legit numbers and when they put out the truth, its normally the truth like greg cossell.

mussop
10-28-2011, 06:13 AM
Of course not, but from following pff, they do more than their share of homework. They put out legit numbers and when they put out the truth, its normally the truth like greg cossell.

Ill take your word for it, it just seems unlikely. Still it's not a good way to look at the situation. Reed is not replacing Mario, Barwin is.

dalemurphy
10-28-2011, 06:21 AM
I don't understand your point at all. #1, When you're the teams premier rusher, offenses assume you're coming 98% of the time anyway b/c.......what for it.......that is what you do. & in that regard, extra attention is going to be paid to you no matter what you do. How many times have we heard from qb's & coaches in the pre-game "we must know where insert name here is at all times...."

2nd, who cares if he doesn't have a bevy of moves to get to the qb....by your own admission he's still damn good getting there with his "limited" moves. Stop getting preoccupied with how pretty he looks. Just like u guys like to say with Kubiak, the only thing that matters is the results...& the results say for mario that he's gotten there more than anyone for the texans in years past.....& judging by how he started out this year, he was likely going to continue that trend................at OLB.

Going by your rationale, i guess Ware isn't as good as everyone says he is b/c the scheme is set up for him to do the damage he does.....his spin move is also not that great either.


The only criticism I have ever made of Mario is that he underachieves. He could be great, and other than the last 12 games of 2007 and all of 2008, he hasn't been great.


Since he was injured, I have not been trying to criticize him. All I am saying is that the defense can be successful without out him (barring further injuries at key positions)... While the team loses something in the pass rush with Reed in his place, I'm making the argument that they gain something as well and that Wade Phillips can maximize what Reed offers in a way that will be productive for the defense.

I wish you would stop perpetuating this myth that Mario Williams often saw double teams this year. I know he saw a lot of them in 2008 and 2009. I'm talking about this season. This season he was almost never double-teamed.

Rey
10-28-2011, 06:51 AM
Mario was double teamed often on pass plays. Not sure how anyone can Watch the game and deny that.

Ole Miss Texan
10-28-2011, 09:04 AM
Mario was double teamed often on pass plays. Not sure how anyone can Watch the game and deny that.

They still find a way... :rake:

dalemurphy
10-28-2011, 09:39 AM
Mario was double teamed often on pass plays. Not sure how anyone can Watch the game and deny that.

Not this year, he wasn't.

By the way, three of his sacks were in one on one situations against a TE. He should be credited for making the plays when the opportunity was there, but he wasn't beating double teams to make plays this year... Or, for that matter, was he matching up against elite tackles and beating them.

Connor Barwin, however, schooled Jake Long for one of his sacks.

Rey
10-28-2011, 10:03 AM
Not this year, he wasn't.

By the way, three of his sacks were in one on one situations against a TE. He should be credited for making the plays when the opportunity was there, but he wasn't beating double teams to make plays this year... Or, for that matter, was he matching up against elite tackles and beating them.

Connor Barwin, however, schooled Jake Long for one of his sacks.

Yes, this year he was.


Go back and watch the games. I can't remember the team, but they were blocking him in layers...One guy would get his shot at him, then if/when Mario got past him another guy would be waiting...It wasn't a traditional double team, but he was being doubled nonetheless...

I understand that you don't care for Mario, but I don't think you are looking at him objectively.

In the pre-season Reeds got sacks against (1) air, (2) a RB...Other than that he hasn't done much of anything of note...He isn't strong enough right now and his quickness and speed are not enough to compensate...

The Cush
10-28-2011, 11:38 AM
Yes, this year he was.


Go back and watch the games. I can't remember the team, but they were blocking him in layers...One guy would get his shot at him, then if/when Mario got past him another guy would be waiting...It wasn't a traditional double team, but he was being doubled nonetheless...

I understand that you don't care for Mario, but I don't think you are looking at him objectively.

In the pre-season Reeds got sacks against (1) air, (2) a RB...Other than that he hasn't done much of anything of note...He isn't strong enough right now and his quickness and speed are not enough to compensate...

That was the Saints game. Mario would line up opposite the TE, then they would motion the TE over have him block him with the tackle standing behind him to pick him up. They also used the RB to chip Mario, and only Mario I believe. There was even one play where they stunted the tackle with one of their Pro-Bowl guards to block Mario. One of my posts after that game even marked almost every play they used multiple people to block him.

And of course he isn't looking at it objectively. Dalemurphy wants to discredit 3 of Mario's sacks because they went against TE's and give infinite credit to Connor Barwin for beating Jake Long for 1 of his total of 2 sacks in almost 3 more games. Wasn't it Mario that beat one of those tackles, maybe even Jake Long, and hit Chad Henne's hand to cause a Johnathon Joseph interception? Speaking of Barwin, when Mario was playing he would always lineup with the TE so he got his fair shair of 1 on 1 TE matchups. Seems like he has struggled with that as well. And a number of those hits Barwin got on the Ravens were because the linemen didn't know what they were doing and were letting him go untouched into the backfield.

Norg
10-28-2011, 11:42 AM
if we do get rid of mario in the off season i want a OLB who is faster and that can drop back into coverage This is a passing game now and we need SPeed over power IMO

Mr teX
10-28-2011, 11:53 AM
The only criticism I have ever made of Mario is that he underachieves. He could be great, and other than the last 12 games of 2007 and all of 2008, he hasn't been great.


Since he was injured, I have not been trying to criticize him. All I am saying is that the defense can be successful without out him (barring further injuries at key positions)... While the team loses something in the pass rush with Reed in his place, I'm making the argument that they gain something as well and that Wade Phillips can maximize what Reed offers in a way that will be productive for the defense.

I wish you would stop perpetuating this myth that Mario Williams often saw double teams this year. I know he saw a lot of them in 2008 and 2009. I'm talking about this season. This season he was almost never double-teamed.

i'm not saying that the defense can't be successful without him, b/c we obviously have been. I'm simply saying that we'd be more successful with him whether he's at DE (like you'd like him to be) or OLB b/c at the end of the day, offenses WILL go out of their way to make sure he's accounted for b/c he is that talented & he has done it before. Obviously, he has a better chance to do that in wade's system as an olb instead of a de. sure, you may lose some flexibility with him not being effective out in coverage, but i think at this point wade feels that the damage he could do rushing as the olb outweighs what you lose with his shortcomings in coverage; that is not an unreasonable stance....the positives outweigh the negatives if you will.

& I may be wrong, but where did i state he was facing double teams?

But since you took it there, why acknowledge that he saw plenty of double teams in 2008 & 2009, but not in 2010 or 2011? what in your mind would've changed offensive coord.'s views of him these last couple of years to where they felt they could single block him? It just doesn't make sense when you factor in the Wade Phillips hire & him having more talent around him than he's ever had before & the fact that the position he was moved to is exclusively set up to be the guy. If anything that would bring more attention to him.

Texans_Chick
10-28-2011, 12:06 PM
Ok you're going to e plain to me where the hell they got these numbers from. How has Reed who only has 2 starts under his belt have 115 rushes already while mostly playing the strong side while Mario has 124 in 4.2 games? The numbers don't add up.

Not to mention they obviously don't realize it's Barwin they need to be comparing Mario's numbers with since he is actually the one that took Mario's position over.

If they/ you want a real comparison they need to match up what Barwin has done since the move compared to Mario and what Reed has don compared to what Barwin did before the move. Until the do that their numbers are a waste of time looking at.

They chart every single game. This is an article I wrote a while back about the strengths and limitations of their data:


Pro Football Focus: How Do They Put Their Numbers Together? (http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/04/pro-football-focus-how-do-they-put-their-numbers-together/)

The reason why they may be making the Mario/Reed comparison is that with Mario missing, Reed's snaps have increased. So you are comparing the productivity of the snaps.

But yeah, it might be interesting to look at all three positions together given the different positions. If you would like the author to look into the Barwin numbers too, I could ask.

The Cush
10-28-2011, 12:11 PM
The only criticism I have ever made of Mario is that he underachieves. He could be great, and other than the last 12 games of 2007 and all of 2008, he hasn't been great.



LOL. What??!! You could do this to anybody. On top of taking away the 28 games you already took away, why didn't you say to take 7 games in 2009 to take away his 9 sacks, 7 games in 2010 to take away 8.5 sacks and 3.25 games to take away his 5 sacks from this year. I mean if you take all those away, and look at the Saints game this year and all the ones you didn't take out...he's been such an under achiever!!!!!! :toropalm:

Anybody is going to "underachieve" if you don't credit their actual achievements. SMH

mussop
10-28-2011, 04:40 PM
They chart every single game. This is an article I wrote a while back about the strengths and limitations of their data:


Pro Football Focus: How Do They Put Their Numbers Together? (http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/04/pro-football-focus-how-do-they-put-their-numbers-together/)

The reason why they may be making the Mario/Reed comparison is that with Mario missing, Reed's snaps have increased. So you are comparing the productivity of the snaps.

But yeah, it might be interesting to look at all three positions together given the different positions. If you would like the author to look into the Barwin numbers too, I could ask.
That would be incredibly cool. I would love to see what Barwin has been able to do before and after the position change.

76Texan
10-28-2011, 05:29 PM
They chart every single game. This is an article I wrote a while back about the strengths and limitations of their data:


Pro Football Focus: How Do They Put Their Numbers Together? (http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/04/pro-football-focus-how-do-they-put-their-numbers-together/)

The reason why they may be making the Mario/Reed comparison is that with Mario missing, Reed's snaps have increased. So you are comparing the productivity of the snaps.

But yeah, it might be interesting to look at all three positions together given the different positions. If you would like the author to look into the Barwin numbers too, I could ask.

I'm not quite sure I can "trust" their charting to the utmost accuracy.
I don't know how many people they have charting each game, and how familiar they are with all the personnels of all 32 teams.

A couple years ago, I tried to look into the obvious:
Watching a few players that don't appear in the game much so I can see if their charting is correct or not.
They mistook Adibi for another player on a couple of plays, for example.
It was then that I said "before analyzing the data", there's a need for "data integrity".
Partially for that reason, the individual stats, I'm not convinced they can get it "accurate enough" (and then you add to it the guesswork involved in coverage scheme, pass protection scheme, etc.) to be of "intelligent" analysis on individual players.

Team stats, yeah sure, those can be put into good use.

ATXtexanfan
10-28-2011, 06:43 PM
who cares, i think wade has earned all kinds of respect so far. he sets up players to succeed. dude plays the cards he is dealt and he has the D playing great with or without mario. kubiaks greatest failure was handing his defense to dumbasses. wade may save kubes job and if mario walks wade will continue with the cards he's dealt. wade is something special.
hell wade has a nice D when everyone knows where his weak link is

76Texan
10-28-2011, 09:43 PM
who cares, i think wade has earned all kinds of respect so far. he sets up players to succeed. dude plays the cards he is dealt and he has the D playing great with or without mario. kubiaks greatest failure was handing his defense to dumbasses. wade may save kubes job and if mario walks wade will continue with the cards he's dealt. wade is something special.
hell wade has a nice D when everyone knows where his weak link is

Let's not forget that Wade was given the freedom to dratf Watt, Reed and to add Jospeph and Manning to the defense.

We lost Mario a few games into the season, but we also gained Barwin back from injury.

Demeco has been slow with injury, but we didn't have Cushing for a few last year.

The other players also had time to mature/acclimate to the game (Cody, Mitchell, Jamison - at least offsetting the loss of Okoye; some may even say a whole more than that.)

I don't know what you mean by weak link exactly, but so far I can't see you'r saying NT (these are the same guys anyway, and they are rounding off into better players with more years of experience.)

If you're talking about #2 CB, Wade was able to draft a guy for himself (Brandon Harris).
So whether you say it was KJ or Allen that was the link, your point has no merrit.

The safety play hasn't been exceptional by any mean, but there were fewer critical mistakes, and at least enough good plays from the current players.

Make no mistake, this defense has to be much better than last year given the overall availabiilty of talents on the roster.

dalemurphy
10-29-2011, 08:30 AM
i'm not saying that the defense can't be successful without him, b/c we obviously have been. I'm simply saying that we'd be more successful with him whether he's at DE (like you'd like him to be) or OLB b/c at the end of the day, offenses WILL go out of their way to make sure he's accounted for b/c he is that talented & he has done it before. Obviously, he has a better chance to do that in wade's system as an olb instead of a de. sure, you may lose some flexibility with him not being effective out in coverage, but i think at this point wade feels that the damage he could do rushing as the olb outweighs what you lose with his shortcomings in coverage; that is not an unreasonable stance....the positives outweigh the negatives if you will.

& I may be wrong, but where did i state he was facing double teams?

But since you took it there, why acknowledge that he saw plenty of double teams in 2008 & 2009, but not in 2010 or 2011? what in your mind would've changed offensive coord.'s views of him these last couple of years to where they felt they could single block him? It just doesn't make sense when you factor in the Wade Phillips hire & him having more talent around him than he's ever had before & the fact that the position he was moved to is exclusively set up to be the guy. If anything that would bring more attention to him.


I'm not reading the box scores and then complaining about a lack of sacks. Sometimes there is a clear lack of effort on his part. I'm not sure why this is even debated. Look at the violence and intensity Antonio Smith plays with every snap compared to Mario. When Mario is double-teamed, for instance, he usually stands and hand-slaps, assuming he can't make a play (or it's too much effort). My criticism of Mario has been consistent since last year (before 2010, I was a big supporter and fan of his... including on draft day). His effort is often not very good and I don't like that. I prefer players like Smith, Barwin, Watt, Cushing, Jamison, all who give everything they have on nearly every snap... I realize that doesn't make them the better player, but it does make them the more likeable player in my mind.

Lucky
10-29-2011, 09:04 AM
I agree with 76Texan's point that the Texans defensive talent has improved from last season. but the biggest difference between the 2 seasons defensive performance has to be coaching. Had the previous coaches worked with this talent, the defense would still be ineffective. Had Wade worked with last year's defense, he could have produced an adequate unit. I believe Wade would, has, and can find a way.

Wow am i having fun with my new tablet (ugh). Never teach an old dog new tricks.

thunderkyss
10-29-2011, 09:57 AM
His effort is often not very good and I don't like that. I prefer players like Smith, Barwin, Watt, Cushing, Jamison, all who give everything they have on nearly every snap... I realize that doesn't make them the better player, but it does make them the more likeable player in my mind.

Travis Johnson & Amobi Okoye were high effort guys.... you could watch every snap & you could see they were giving everything they had on every single snap... still wasn't good enough.

I don't know what you are seeing as a lack of effort from Mario. He's probably played more snaps than any player on the team since he's been here. He plays hurt. & He delivers.

Bar none, Mario is the most complete 4-3 defensive end in the league. Maybe he's expecting a run play & you're expecting him to go after the QB. I remember early in his career that used to get me, he's done a better job of recognizing situations & what he's expecting, but still get's caught sometimes.

Bottom line, I'd be worried if Mario Williams were ever to be a jagUar or a Titan. I don't worry about over-rated players.

dalemurphy
10-29-2011, 01:42 PM
Travis Johnson & Amobi Okoye were high effort guys.... you could watch every snap & you could see they were giving everything they had on every single snap... still wasn't good enough.
.

I'm not sure that is true about Amobi Okoye. But, yeah, Travis Johnson was a high effort guy and I was a pretty big fan of his, too.

Playmaker
10-29-2011, 08:49 PM
I know it won't happen, but I think Cushing would beast at one of the OLB positions. I wish Wade would give Brian same type of role Clay Matthews III has at GB.

ObsiWan
10-29-2011, 09:16 PM
I agree with 76Texan's point that the Texans defensive talent has improved from last season. but the biggest difference between the 2 seasons defensive performance has to be coaching. Had the previous coaches worked with this talent, the defense would still be ineffective. Had Wade worked with last year's defense, he could have produced an adequate unit. I believe Wade would, has, and can find a way.

Wow am i having fun with my new tablet (ugh). Never teach an old dog new tricks.

what kind of tablet?

badboy
10-29-2011, 10:07 PM
if we do get rid of mario in the off season i want a OLB who is faster and that can drop back into coverage This is a passing game now and we need SPeed over power IMOPicking #25 in first round Courtney Upshaw is available and in second round #57, Melvin Ingram are two to watch.

Lucky
10-29-2011, 10:52 PM
what kind of tablet?

Samsung GalaxyTab

Lucky
10-29-2011, 11:02 PM
I know it won't happen, but I think Cushing would beast at one of the OLB positions. I wish Wade would give Brian same type of role Clay Matthews III has at GB.

I was thinking the same thing this offseason, before Mario was moved to OLB. Right now, Cush has become too important inside to consider a move outside. An injury to Darwin or Reed could change my (and Wade's) opinion.

TejasTom
10-29-2011, 11:11 PM
I know it won't happen, but I think Cushing would beast at one of the OLB positions. I wish Wade would give Brian same type of role Clay Matthews III has at GB.

Why? So he can have 25 less tackles.
Cushing : 47
Matthews : 22

Jackie Chiles
10-29-2011, 11:30 PM
I know it won't happen, but I think Cushing would beast at one of the OLB positions. I wish Wade would give Brian same type of role Clay Matthews III has at GB.

He is a blitzer, a guy you send up the middle to blow someone up, not a pass rusher. He is exactly where he needs to be. Would you put Ray Lewis at OLB? Patrick Willis? Cushing is playing that well.

Playmaker
10-29-2011, 11:31 PM
Why? So he can have 25 less tackles.
Cushing : 47
Matthews : 22

Extrapolate CMIII stats this year to Cushing, a little too simplistic don't you think?

You know what kind of havoc Cushing can cause as an edge rushing OLB? I can easily see him have double digit sacks and be one of the leaders in tackles for losses. Tackles are fine, but tackles for losses and sacks are even better.

As it is, we don't have an adequate replacement for Cushing inside if he moves outside, Sharpton would be a drop off. And we need Cushing inside cause DeMeco hasn't fully recovered yet.

Playmaker
10-29-2011, 11:44 PM
He is a blitzer, a guy you send up the middle to blow someone up, not a pass rusher. He is exactly where he needs to be. Would you put Ray Lewis at OLB? Patrick Willis? Cushing is playing that well.

See my last post on my thoughts on Cushing as a pass rusher. We won't know in the foreseeable future, but I think Cushing can excel at being an edge rusher. I think Cushing is versatile enough to handle the role of being a pass rushing OLB, I sorta play "what if" now that he's pigeonholed as an inside guy.

mussop
10-30-2011, 03:33 AM
Picking #25 in first round Courtney Upshaw is available and in second round #57, Melvin Ingram are two to watch.

I have been keeping an eye on Upshaw. He's big and would look great next to Cushing if Meco doesn't return to form.

steelbtexan
10-30-2011, 08:37 AM
Hopefully Barwin becomes the Texans CM3.

mussop
10-30-2011, 09:05 AM
Hopefully Barwin becomes the Texans CM3.

Hopefully today!

Rey
10-30-2011, 01:33 PM
:rolleyes:

Gonna have to have a hell of a second half.

mussop
10-30-2011, 01:40 PM
:rolleyes:

Gonna have to have a hell of a second half.

What are you talking about? Barwin and Reed are playing very good. It was Barwin that tipped th pass that Cushing intercepted. Reed was all over the place in the first quarter. In the second quarter Jacksonville has been doing a lot of max protection and quick passes.

Rey
10-30-2011, 02:33 PM
What are you talking about? Barwin and Reed are playing very good. It was Barwin that tipped th pass that Cushing intercepted. Reed was all over the place in the first quarter. In the second quarter Jacksonville has been doing a lot of max protection and quick passes.

I just feel bad for you now.



You are obviously delusional if you think the rush doesn't miss Mario.

And my post was in reference to your cmIII post. :rolleyes:

mussop
10-30-2011, 02:40 PM
I just feel bad for you now.



You are obviously delusional if you think the rush doesn't miss Mario.

And my post was in reference to your cmIII post. :rolleyes:

Dude if you would quit holding up that Mario Williams poster with one hand and pay attention to the game you might realize our defense has allowed only two TD's in the last 7 and a half quarters. This defense isn't missing Mario at all right now.

Rey
10-30-2011, 02:48 PM
Dude if you would quit holding up that Mario Williams poster with one hand and pay attention to the game you might realize our defense has allowed only two TD's in the last 7 and a half quarters. This defense isn't missing Mario at all right now.

The defense has gone up against two of the more inept offenses in the league.

We put up 40 points last week so I guess we aren't missing andre! Brilliant!


But you're too busy going to the "your his biggest fan" card to even take that into consideration. How old are you?

mussop
10-30-2011, 03:08 PM
The defense has gone up against two of the more inept offenses in the league.

We put up 40 points last week so I guess we aren't missing andre! Brilliant!


But you're too busy going to the "your his biggest fan" card to even take that into consideration. How old are you?

So NOW you're discounting the competition? Never mind the fact that Mario's stats were inflated by playing Miami and indy. Your agenda is as transparent as your manlove for Mario.

welsh texan
10-30-2011, 03:30 PM
It makes for pretty gruesome reading this thread. Seems you have to either love or hate Mario Williams to take part.

No one seems to make the point that of course we are missing Mario Williams in the front 7, and its showing up in a big way when it comes to how often we actually get to the QB, yet the group has stepped up enough to still get pressure and force the QB out of his comfort zone.

Also the backfield seems to be stepping up now, saw a number of positive plays by Allen, both good and bad (as opposed to just bad) from Kareem, and teams are avoiding throwing on JoJo as he's a turnover machine.

The Texans just won a game on Defence guys, held a QB to 10-30 despite only managing 1 sack.

One thing I will ask, when we have Mario in the QB doesn't have as much of a chance to throw it away, he takes the sack more often, the QB seems to have the opportunity to throw it away more often without Mario in, does that create more opportunity for INT's? Are sacks always that positive?

Rey
10-30-2011, 04:06 PM
So NOW you're discounting the competition? Never mind the fact that Mario's stats were inflated by playing Miami and indy. Your agenda is as transparent as your manlove for Mario.


Ive ragged in Mario plenty. Check some of my old post.

That said, your mind cannot be so small that you equate saying that mario's presence makes this team better to some kind of agenda.

Show me one post where I said Antonio, reed, barwin or anyone in the front 7 sucks.

Tk laid it out very nicely yet you seem to be the sole party that is making this a love/hate thing.

You are the one that is transparent. Obviously he put something in your gf. That's the only logical explanation because if anyone says anything remotely positive about Mario you hit the panic button.

Saying we're not as good but still effective is not something to freak out about. Saying Mario makes us better is not a personal insult to anyone. . . Well except to you I guess.

drunkcookie
10-30-2011, 04:18 PM
Not gunna read the whole thread, but Mario was killing it before the injury. i don't give a chit who he was going up against, fact is they were NFL players, and he was making it happen...

That said, i am excited about Reed, he's doing a good job, glad we have him...

Sent from my ryePhone 12G using Tapakeg

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 04:31 PM
Not gunna read the whole thread, but Mario was killing it before the injury. i don't give a chit who he was going up against, fact is they were NFL players, and he was making it happen...

That said, i am excited about Reed, he's doing a good job, glad we have him...

Sent from my ryePhone 12G using Tapakeg

I really don't get the competition argument.

Great players always rack up stats on bad matchups. Andre doesn't put up numbers on Revis, he does it against bad corners. It's the NFL and Mario isn't going to beat elite blockers consistently. Just like Andre isn't going to beat Revis consistently.

welsh texan
10-30-2011, 04:44 PM
I really don't get the competition argument.

Great players always rack up stats on bad matchups. Andre doesn't put up numbers on Revis, he does it against bad corners. It's the NFL and Mario isn't going to beat elite blockers consistently. Just like Andre isn't going to beat Revis consistently.

You need to remove that post mate cos when DaleMurphy sees the truth he's going to start up a thread saying cut AJ due to injury issues and the fact he can't play against top opposition! :kitten:

Mr teX
10-31-2011, 08:58 AM
Look, Reed's doing some good things but let's not act like he's out there raising havoc & his speed is creating problems for the LT b/c it's really not. his 2 sacks have basically been coverage sacks...lol, relax mussop i'll take those too.

But we'll likely have problems with a better qb & that's what i foresee us having when we go against better teams. The pressure just hasn't been the same as it was when mario was in there. EVERYONE on the DL was getting off when he was playing. with him out, not so much.

mussop
10-31-2011, 03:11 PM
...lol, relax mussop i'll take those too.

LOL, hey man I don't know what has gotten into me lately. I have turned into a grouchy opinionated old fart with a bad temper. I guess it's work stress. I have ridiculous deadlines that are nearly impossible to meet and 99 % of the guys that my company hires and sends me are ****in retards.

I feel like I'm running a daycare full of kids with A.D.D.. I come here to get my mind away from work and it hasn't been working lately. I guess i need a long vacation.

I went back and re read most of the threads I have been posting in lately and I realize I need to apologize to everyone that I have been an ******* to. So if I have offended any of you I apologize.

This apology is sincere unlike the one I left for Supermario.