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View Full Version : Schaub is a Mirror


WesmanTexanfan
10-19-2011, 12:23 PM
I've been kicking this thought around and would like to know what everyone thinks? I know there is a schaub thread somewhere but here's my thought...

He is a mirror, he is not bad, he is not good, he simply plays up to or down to everyone around him. He mirrors the rest of our teams effort. He has led some nice drives but at the same time its because our skill players are great and make it easier on him. I just dont see him overcomeing bad team play unless other players step up, he will never win us big games by himself but at the same time i dont think he will lose them either, he isnt good or bad, he just is.

I dont know though, thats what i see, I cant complain about him but I cant praise him either...

euro-Texan
10-19-2011, 12:32 PM
I think Schaub is a real good quarterback. His numbers prove that. When compared to the great QB's, his weaknesses are evident, but people are a little quick to witchhunt and point fingers. Everyone remember that Green Bay team who went undefeated last year? They didn't! They struggled due to player injuries nad turned it around at the end when they got their players back. I'm not sure if it is fair to hang everything on schaub here.

euro-Texan
10-19-2011, 12:34 PM
I dont know though, thats what i see, I cant complain about him but I cant praise him either...

This is a fair assessment in my opinion

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 12:34 PM
Isn't this definitional? A great QB (not calling Schaub that) can throw a great pass to a WR who cuts the wrong way at a critical time (otherwise known as bad team play) and the come back drive stalls. A great QB (once again ...) can drop back with the perfect play called against the optimal coverage situation and if the OLine whiffs an assignment (aka bad team play) gets sacked before the route becomes open for the game winning pass.

How do you discern the difference? I don't think people spend enough time around here trying.

mridge01
10-19-2011, 12:44 PM
Don't know about the whole mirror angle, but yeah, he's just a guy back there taking snaps for the most part. He usually makes the right throws, but he makes his fair share of bad ones. Doesn't have the strongest arm or accuracy, but he probably has better than average intellegence. But, you're right, he'll never be a Manning, Brees, Brady, or Rogers. Guys that can carry teams on their shoulders and win games under any situation.

euro-Texan
10-19-2011, 12:52 PM
Don't know about the whole mirror angle, but yeah, he's just a guy back there taking snaps for the most part. He usually makes the right throws, but he makes his fair share of bad ones. Doesn't have the strongest arm or accuracy, but he probably has better than average intellegence. But, you're right, he'll never be a Manning, Brees, Brady, or Rogers. Guys that can carry teams on their shoulders and win games under any situation.

I seem to recall Schaub beating Rogers in GB in the freezing cold. Did Brady beat Houston when Welker went down at Reliant? There overall body of work is much better, but I don't blame Schaub for our defense last year, just as I didn't give VY credit for the tacks making the play offs in spite of him his rookie season.

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 12:55 PM
But, you're right, he'll never be a Manning, Brees, Brady, or Rogers. Guys that can carry teams on their shoulders and win games under any situation.

And I am going to call BS on that (not with respect to Schaub but generally). It is a team sport. Roger Staubach was a far superior QB to Terry Bradshaw and yet didn't win as many rings. The team is frequently more important than any one person including the QB. Heck key plays as from this illustration between Staubach and Bradshaw are sometimes the determining factor on a season.

mridge01
10-19-2011, 01:03 PM
I seem to recall Schaub beating Rogers in GB in the freezing cold. Did Brady beat Houston when Welker went down at Reliant? There overall body of work is much better, but I don't blame Schaub for our defense last year, just as I didn't give VY credit for the tacks making the play offs in spite of him his rookie season.

I recall that Brady has 3 superbowl rings and Rodgers has 1 in his third season. Schaub has no playoff appearances as a starter... ever.

mridge01
10-19-2011, 01:05 PM
And I am going to call BS on that (not with respect to Schaub but generally). It is a team sport. Roger Staubach was a far superior QB to Terry Bradshaw and yet didn't win as many rings. The team is frequently more important than any one person including the QB. Heck key plays as from this illustration between Staubach and Bradshaw are sometimes the determining factor on a season.

My point is those other qbs I mentioned will carry teams on their shoulders and win games. Schaub won't. Staubach was able to win games by making plays and carry his team in spite of his supporting cast which makes him a better QB than Schaub, hence a Superbowl ring.

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 01:09 PM
I recall that Brady has 3 superbowl rings and Rodgers has 1 in his third season. Schaub has no playoff appearances as a starter... ever.

Which proves nothing to what I said. Brady got two of those on field goals and all three were considered defensive stand out games. The Cowboys of the '90's got three rings in dominating fashion (OK two based on O'Donnell being an id!ot). Does that make Aikman a better QB? Manning has a poor playoff record. Is he not one of the greatest QB's of all times and almost the definition of carrying a team? - hello 0-6 (after making the playoffs 11 of the past 12 years).

Teams win championships.

Ryan
10-19-2011, 01:11 PM
Yay more Schaub threads, just what this forum needs.

euro-Texan
10-19-2011, 01:12 PM
My point is those other qbs I mentioned will carry teams on their shoulders and win games. Schaub won't. Staubach was able to win games by making plays and carry his team in spite of his supporting cast which makes him a better QB than Schaub, hence a Superbowl ring.

The Pats won 11 games when Brady missed the season. I know of one QB who can carry a team and by doing so he screwed them when he went down.

Rey
10-19-2011, 01:17 PM
I dont know though, thats what i see, I cant complain about him but I cant praise him either...



I can complain about him....

I can praise him too...

Doing those two things shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

Shammy is not all bad. He does a lot of things well. But my major complaint with him is that he is limited in what he can do and because of that he can't afford too many errors. Throwing the ball into the dirt, silly INT's, Throwing balls behind his targets, too high, not getting it out fast enough...

He has not played well this year IMO. We need to make it easier on him. We added Mason, now we need to protect better and run the ball better and hopefully that will help elevate his game.

Rey
10-19-2011, 01:24 PM
The Pats won 11 games when Brady missed the season. I know of one QB who can carry a team and by doing so he screwed them when he went down.

Right, but I think the Pats may have won 13 or 14 and made a deep play-off run (if not superbowl) had Brady been there....

Teams can still be good with less than great QB play, but great QB play normally elevates a team exponentially.

El Tejano
10-19-2011, 01:37 PM
He's good. He's not the best player on the team at the most important position on the team. Enough said.

mridge01
10-19-2011, 02:27 PM
Which proves nothing to what I said. Brady got two of those on field goals and all three were considered defensive stand out games. The Cowboys of the '90's got three rings in dominating fashion (OK two based on O'Donnell being an id!ot). Does that make Aikman a better QB? Manning has a poor playoff record. Is he not one of the greatest QB's of all times and almost the definition of carrying a team? - hello 0-6 (after making the playoffs 11 of the past 12 years).

Teams win championships.

You're making my point for me. Brady drove his team down the field to kick those game winning fgs. Did you see the Pats defense agains the Panthers in that superbowl, horrendous. Manning still has a superbowl and gets to the playoffs every year. It's no coincidence they are now 0-6 without him. The only difference between the last 11 years and this year is no Peyton.
Aikman is a better QB than Schaub, and I hate the Cowboys but readily admit that. Again, what part of Schaub has never made the playoffs don't you understand? What else you got?

Kthx
10-19-2011, 02:35 PM
Does this mean that Ngata is going to have seven years of bad luck?

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 02:45 PM
You're making my point for me. Brady drove his team down the field to kick those game winning fgs. Did you see the Pats defense agains the Panthers in that superbowl, horrendous. Manning still has a superbowl and gets to the playoffs every year. It's no coincidence they are now 0-6 without him. The only difference between the last 11 years and this year is no Peyton.
Aikman is a better QB than Schaub, and I hate the Cowboys but readily admit that. Again, what part of Schaub has never made the playoffs don't you understand? What else you got?

No I am not making your point for you. You are failing to see the team for the trees. Brady was able to win on field goals because the team had held the game tight. Schaub had the team in position to win by a field goal against the Raiders. The team failed to have that be the situation.

I didn't compare Aikman and Schaub but nice attempted deflection. Check out the standings at any website. They don't have them listed - Schaub, Titans, Jaguars, Colts. What part of that don't you understand?

Double Barrel
10-19-2011, 03:02 PM
I think Schaub is a solid field general, much in the vein of Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson (both have rings, btw).

I think he is the type of QB that can manage an offense, and with a great defense, he could win some playoff games.

But at this point, he's not clutch. He tends to put himself in position to make plays, but then mistakes out when the moment arrives.

That being said, I think there are around 20 teams that would start Schaub right now. So he's far from being a bad QB. Like the rest of this offense, he just needs AJ to succeed.

QBs, in general, take too much credit and too much blame. It's a very interesting position to evaluate in a team sport. Marino, on of the NFL's all time great passers, has no rings. Big Ben, a solid field general, has two rings. So rings are merely part of a bigger evaluation picture. You have to look at body of work and nuances in the game.

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 03:16 PM
That being said, I think there are around 20 teams that would start Schaub right now.

There is the kind of non black and white conversation I am talking about. Lots of teams would prefer Schaub over their current situation. At the same time he has not proven to be the elevate any team kind of QB either ... although that is something of a myth. Manning (everyone knows which one) has one ring. How long has it been since Brady got one? Marino never did. And yet all three would be listed by most in the top 5 QB's of all time if this was a theoretical discussion in the NFL Forum. Would anybody rank any of those three as worse QB's than Bradshaw who has as many rings as they do combined?

They call it the ultimate team sport for a reason.

mridge01
10-19-2011, 03:43 PM
There is the kind of non black and white conversation I am talking about. Lots of teams would prefer Schaub over their current situation. At the same time he has not proven to be the elevate any team kind of QB either ... although that is something of a myth. Manning (everyone knows which one) has one ring. How long has it been since Brady got one? Marino never did. And yet all three would be listed by most in the top 5 QB's of all time if this was a theoretical discussion in the NFL Forum. Would anybody rank any of those three as worse QB's than Bradshaw who has as many rings as they do combined?

They call it the ultimate team sport for a reason.

I can't tell, are you defending Schaub or throwing him under the bus?

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 04:41 PM
I can't tell, are you defending Schaub or throwing him under the bus?

Neither. He's serviceable.

I just don't get this Schaub, Kubiak, etc. debate. You can look at 1-4 plays and blame either of them, another team member or the refs and the Texans are 5-1 and guess what? - there is almost no bitching at all. I have never claimed things are peachy keen, Schaub or Kubiak are the best, yada yada. My point is this is a team sport and the team has lost.

I just get tired of the "only look at the leaders" nature of the discussion. But I will bow out. Blame only the HC and the QB. OLines playing like crap, WR's dropping balls, refs missing blatant (not even questionable) calls,...none of the rest matters. Schaub and Kubiak are losers. (Somebody quote that out of context.)

Rey
10-19-2011, 04:47 PM
There is the kind of non black and white conversation I am talking about. Lots of teams would prefer Schaub over their current situation. At the same time he has not proven to be the elevate any team kind of QB either ... although that is something of a myth. Manning (everyone knows which one) has one ring. How long has it been since Brady got one? Marino never did. And yet all three would be listed by most in the top 5 QB's of all time if this was a theoretical discussion in the NFL Forum. Would anybody rank any of those three as worse QB's than Bradshaw who has as many rings as they do combined?

They call it the ultimate team sport for a reason.

I dont disagree with what you have typed.


That said, Bradshaw was on a team known for amazing defense.

When you have a team that largely depends on it's offense and passing game, you need a qb. . .a really good Qb.

You just need your defense to serve it's purpose.

If you have an amazing defense you don't need your offense to be equally amazing. They just need to serve their purpose and do somethings well.

For this season and seasons moving forward, we are going to need schaub to play better than he has been. Well, if we want to do anything in the play-offs.

Our defense cannot carry this team and when opponents key on the run game shammy has to consistently make teams pay.

If he doesn't we will find it extremely tough to win games this year. Offense needs to step up and kick ass and I'm convinced that the defense will get theirs.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 04:48 PM
Question:

If one of the highly touted top 3 QBs falls to within a reasonable grasp of the Texans in the draft do you go after him? (Talking Jones, Barkley or lol Luck)

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 05:04 PM
I dont disagree with what you have typed.


That said, Bradshaw was on a team known for amazing defense.

When you have a team that largely depends on it's offense and passing game, you need a qb. . .a really good Qb.

You just need your defense to serve it's purpose.

If you have an amazing defense you don't need your offense to be equally amazing. They just need to serve their purpose and do somethings well.

For this season and seasons moving forward, we are going to need schaub to play better than he has been. Well, if we want to do anything in the play-offs.

Our defense cannot carry this team and when opponents key on the run game shammy has to consistently make teams pay.

If he doesn't we will find it extremely tough to win games this year. Offense needs to step up and kick ass and I'm convinced that the defense will get theirs.

Look, here is my analysis. You can ask Texans Chick for confirmation as I have been saying this back to the Capers' days. I dislike coaches who can't do what they are supposed to be experts at. Corollary, I dislike coaches who over control what they don't know. Capers did both. He never built a good D and over-controlled the O. Kubiak has built a good O -not elite but at least good. He has failed on hiring someone to make a good D until possibly this year (they are still give up too many points in crunch time). I said in another thread that is the same analysis I have for popular names like Cowher, Billick and Gruden. LeBeau was responsible for the D. Neither Billick or Gruden built their D and neither built their O to what a "guru" would do.

Now at this point (as in end of this season) you go "too much time" and part ways. But I want a Jimmy Johnson coming to Dallas before I want a retread who has a ring but hasn't proven their worth otherwise.

That makes me neither pro or anti Kubiak - just I want something better if there is going to be a change.

mridge01
10-19-2011, 05:39 PM
Neither. He's serviceable.

I just get tired of the "only look at the leaders" nature of the discussion. But OLines playing like crap, WR's dropping balls, refs missing blatant (not even questionable) calls,...none of the rest matters. Schaub and Kubiak are losers. (Somebody quote that out of context.)

Well no argument with any of this. Right on the money.