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Texanmike02
10-18-2011, 01:08 PM
I've been a Kubiak supporter for most of his tenure. I was willing to let him grow and thought he would eventually become the next "it" coach. I have to be honest, I'm questioning that now.

I'm not saying the season is over, throw it out the window and I'm not saying that we can't make the playoffs with him, I believe we can. I am asking if we can become a dynasty with him. When you look at great coaches, they get more out of the players than everyone else. Name a game in which the Texans have ever performed beyond expectation since their inception? We have two signature wins over the entire franchise history. 19-10 and the fist time we beat Indy. Other than that, how many games have we won that we really shouldn't have?

I used to think it was talent. And it was. That lack of talent is not a problem though. You see this a lot really with teams. It is almost like you need one coach to come in and get you the talent to win and then another coach to come in and take them to the next level. Sometimes I wonder if coaching from behind, talent wise, for 3 or 4 years doesn't somehow impair a coaches ability to coach a team when he has more talent than the guys on the other sideline.

Don't consider coaching for a minute. Just think about player talent. Offensively how many teams have more talent than we do? I'm still thinking too. The Saints? There are a few teams that have maybe as much talent, but it is hard to find a team that you can say "Oh, they have way more talent than the Texans". Why do we stall? Are we too careful? Do we lack discipline? Maybe it IS the personality of the coach.

What about on defense? Now sure that is a work in progress but honestly, even without mario we have an excellent front seven. What about on the back end? JJo is a top flight corner. Manning/Quinn is a very servicable S combo. Yeah, we're weak at the 2nd corner spot but outside of that is there really a MAJOR weakness on the defense?

Our defense has even performed pretty well this year. Its not a stretch to say that the defense has kept us in games. Miami? Even the Indy game, the defense set that up nicely the fist couple of drives. Baltimore? Until we started getting desperate and selling out for turnovers the defense did a lot of nice things (including the takeaway to give us a TD).

Maybe the problem is the coach. Maybe somebody needs to tell him he has more talent than anyone in the league.

The one bright spot? One of our perennial underachievers (JJones) will be less relied on. When AJ comes back with AJ/Mason/Walter I'm suddenly a lot more confident in the offense. JJones can get on the field to stretch the field but I hate, absolutely hate, relying on him to make plays for this team. My hope is that Kubiak puts it together the last ten games. If we finish 8-2 or 7-3 then maybe he gets it and puts it together. Anything less than 7-3 in our last 10 games should see him looking for an opportunity to be an OC again. We're going to find out in very short order how badly we needed a reliable WR2.

Mike

buddyboy
10-18-2011, 01:37 PM
I've been a Kubiak supporter for most of his tenure. I was willing to let him grow and thought he would eventually become the next "it" coach. I have to be honest, I'm questioning that now.

Can't argue

I'm not saying the season is over, throw it out the window and I'm not saying that we can't make the playoffs with him, I believe we can. I am asking if we can become a dynasty with him. When you look at great coaches, they get more out of the players than everyone else. Name a game in which the Texans have ever performed beyond expectation since their inception? We have two signature wins over the entire franchise history. 19-10 and the fist time we beat Indy. Other than that, how many games have we won that we really shouldn't have?

I used to think it was talent. And it was. That lack of talent is not a problem though. You see this a lot really with teams. It is almost like you need one coach to come in and get you the talent to win and then another coach to come in and take them to the next level. Sometimes I wonder if coaching from behind, talent wise, for 3 or 4 years doesn't somehow impair a coaches ability to coach a team when he has more talent than the guys on the other sideline.

Don't consider coaching for a minute. Just think about player talent. Offensively how many teams have more talent than we do? I'm still thinking too. The Saints? There are a few teams that have maybe as much talent, but it is hard to find a team that you can say "Oh, they have way more talent than the Texans". Why do we stall? Are we too careful? Do we lack discipline? Maybe it IS the personality of the coach.

People are going to whine about this being an excuse, but the last two games have been without Andre Johnson. Take away AJ from our offense, and look at our offensive depth chart. Mediocre, at best. We'd be build like a run-heavy team, but with defenses able to key in on the run, our small-ish OL would be overwhelmed. The injury bug is an excuse, but it's also true in certain cases.

What about on defense? Now sure that is a work in progress but honestly, even without mario we have an excellent front seven. What about on the back end? JJo is a top flight corner. Manning/Quinn is a very servicable S combo. Yeah, we're weak at the 2nd corner spot but outside of that is there really a MAJOR weakness on the defense?

Defensive tackle. Minus Mario, I have very little faith in Reed. Demeco has disappeared in a couple games.

Our defense has even performed pretty well this year. Its not a stretch to say that the defense has kept us in games. Miami? Even the Indy game, the defense set that up nicely the fist couple of drives. Baltimore? Until we started getting desperate and selling out for turnovers the defense did a lot of nice things (including the takeaway to give us a TD).

Maybe the problem is the coach. Maybe somebody needs to tell him he has more talent than anyone in the league.

The one bright spot? One of our perennial underachievers (JJones) will be less relied on. When AJ comes back with AJ/Mason/Walter I'm suddenly a lot more confident in the offense. JJones can get on the field to stretch the field but I hate, absolutely hate, relying on him to make plays for this team. My hope is that Kubiak puts it together the last ten games. If we finish 8-2 or 7-3 then maybe he gets it and puts it together. Anything less than 7-3 in our last 10 games should see him looking for an opportunity to be an OC again. We're going to find out in very short order how badly we needed a reliable WR2.

Mike

It DOES look like our second half of the schedule seems weaker, but we'll see. I honestly think a big part of our success will be how Reed develops. I still like Walter as a WR2, I may be in the minority, but I also think we need a "better Jacoby" for lack of a better term. Someone who can stretch the field and make safeties account for them.

FirstTexansFan
10-18-2011, 01:43 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess.... Texas? :)

Brisco_County
10-18-2011, 01:58 PM
I came to the realization two years ago. Then Wade took over the defense, and we had to re-evaluate. By game three against the Saints, our evaluation was concluded. As of now, this is the case against Kubiak:

1) Our record against winning teams.

2) After six years, the O-line is still inconsistent and unprepared.

3) Saints, Lions, Bills, Buccaneers, Falcons, 49'rs.

A team should never rely on one or two star players (who aren't the QB) to be competitive. Ask Mike McCarthy.

eriadoc
10-18-2011, 02:10 PM
This is Kubiak's team, and it has been for a few years. The only remaining player from the C&C regime is AJ. At the end of the day, Kubiak is responsible for everything this team has done, currently does, and will do through this season. He has hired and/or fired coaches, players, and even his own GM. He has decided who to put on the field, or has chosen to delegate that responsibility to someone who was inept. He decides who dresses and plays. He decides what plays get called, or he chose who to delegate that responsibility to someone who was inept. Every single aspect of this team is on Gary Kubiak.

If you think talent has been an issue, then look at the man who brought that talent in (especially the '07 and '08 drafts). If you think it's been the defense, look at who hired Richard Smith and Frank Bush and then listened to them. If you think the offense is great between the 20s, but can't score as reliably as they ought to, look at whose scheme it is. If you think the in-game management is an issue, look at the source.

There comes a time when you simply have to recognize where the biggest single point of failure is. I realize that lots of posters have predicted this for a while and the pro-Kubiak crowd doesn't want to eat crow on it, but it is what it is. This is his team through and through. There is no dodging it.

El Tejano
10-18-2011, 02:29 PM
We will get to 9-6 and need to beat Carolina to get in the playoffs. I will let you fill in the rest.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 02:32 PM
We will get to 9-6 and need to beat Carolina to get in the playoffs. I will let you fill in the rest.ok, so you are saying the Texans go 6-2 and clinch a playoff spot three weeks before the end of the season? Can you roll me one too? :brando:

Grams
10-18-2011, 02:46 PM
me·di·o·cre adj \ˌmē-dē-ˈō-kər\

Definition of MEDIOCRE
: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance : ordinary, so-so

This is the Texans - middle of the pack, so-so, average, win as many as we lose. 8-8. This is where we will stay as long as Kubiak is HC.

Maddict5
10-18-2011, 02:46 PM
ok, so you are saying the Texans go 6-2 and clinch a playoff spot three weeks before the end of the season? Can you roll me one too? :brando:

he meant against the titans obviously.. not the panthers. 9-6 would've been the clue for most ppl

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 06:43 PM
This is Kubiak's team, and it has been for a few years. The only remaining player from the C&C regime is AJ. At the end of the day, Kubiak is responsible for everything this team has done, currently does, and will do through this season. He has hired and/or fired coaches, players, and even his own GM. He has decided who to put on the field, or has chosen to delegate that responsibility to someone who was inept. He decides who dresses and plays. He decides what plays get called, or he chose who to delegate that responsibility to someone who was inept. Every single aspect of this team is on Gary Kubiak.

If you think talent has been an issue, then look at the man who brought that talent in (especially the '07 and '08 drafts). If you think it's been the defense, look at who hired Richard Smith and Frank Bush and then listened to them. If you think the offense is great between the 20s, but can't score as reliably as they ought to, look at whose scheme it is. If you think the in-game management is an issue, look at the source.

There comes a time when you simply have to recognize where the biggest single point of failure is. I realize that lots of posters have predicted this for a while and the pro-Kubiak crowd doesn't want to eat crow on it, but it is what it is. This is his team through and through. There is no dodging it.

It rained very heavily that day we played the Raiders. May not have been a true "hurricane" or a Monsoon, but when did Houston last get rain like that? Had to have been double digits.

The players were probably worried about getting their shoes wet walking back to their cars.

You can't blame Kubiak for that shit. How's he supposed to keep the players focused?

If it weren't for that, we would be 4-2 & you wouldn't have these threads. As it is, we're only one game off schedule.

Heck, since the Jags signed Sims-Walker, our chances of winning @Tennesse just went up 10 fold. & Since it's a division game, it's like winning 4.

I think you guys are being a little knee Jerk. It's only been 5.2875 years & when you factor in the Carr years, Ike, Gustov, & the Tillman incident, it's really only been 2.

TheMatrix31
10-18-2011, 06:57 PM
I came to the realization two years ago. Then Wade took over the defense, and we had to re-evaluate. By game three against the Saints, our evaluation was concluded. As of now, this is the case against Kubiak:

1) Our record against winning teams.

2) After six years, the O-line is still inconsistent and unprepared.

3) Saints, Lions, Bills, Buccaneers, Falcons, 49'rs.

A team should never rely on one or two star players (who aren't the QB) to be competitive. Ask Mike McCarthy.


I thought Kubiak should have been fired after 2009....

....but your points are insane. Wade Phillips is arguably the best D-coordinator in the league and your "evaluation" was done after 3 games? After we lost to NO, a perennial contender, by 7 on the road? With no Foster? Really?

1) Record against winning teams on the road is bad. Worse than bad. Not to mention the utterly ridiculous ways we've lost some of them in the last couple of years (Jets, Eagles, etc)

2) Kubiak has turned the OL from being one of the worst units in HISTORY to one who was in front of the NFL's leading rusher last year. Not sure where you're getting this from. If you want to talk about this year, the OLs failures have really only been seen since Andre Johnson's been out. Stacking the box is tough to block when its happening all the time. Gotta get more creative to beat it.

3) A team should never rely on one or two players if not the QB, but I think that speaks to how unbelievable Andre Johnson is. Do people realize that not only is he one of the best players in the league but one of the best players in history? Aside from Rice, Moss, TO, and Harrison, he's probably the best WR I've ever seen in my life. He's the quarterback of the offense, and don't anyone forget it. Thoroughly disrespectful for anyone to discount his absence. Makes me think people don't know anything about football, and I hate making those generalities. Would rather lose Schaub and have Leinart for 3 games than lose Andre.

Look, the state of the team right now is shitty. No one's gonna dispute that, but there are some things that need to be cleared up.

Rey
10-18-2011, 07:07 PM
I still have not gotten over the loss to the Raiders.

That, to me, was about as bad as it gets. And no real disrespect to the Raiders, but we should have handled them at home.

Shammy really let me down in that game...I mean, he hasn't really been great in any game this year, but he was pretty bad in that game...

I've never seen a QB throw the ball in the dirt as much as Schaub has.

But whatever...I don't want to harp on the shamwow because really, it aint all his fault. Kubiak is largely to blame for the product we get.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 07:17 PM
2) Kubiak has turned the OL from being one of the worst units in HISTORY to one who was in front of the NFL's leading rusher last year. Not sure where you're getting this from. If you want to talk about this year, the OLs failures have really only been seen since Andre Johnson's been out. Stacking the box is tough to block when its happening all the time. Gotta get more creative to beat it.


This was against two teams that run the same system we do,They practice against it every week. which allowed us to shut down their running games just as affectively as they shut down ours.

We actually ran better than either team in the first half. If we had Andre, our run game would have opened up the same way the Ravens game opened up in the 4th Qtr.

TheMatrix31
10-18-2011, 07:27 PM
Yep.

badboy
10-18-2011, 10:09 PM
Gary allowed his coaches and scouts to make crappy decisions. I never heard of a scout being fired for decision such as KJ, Okoye, etc. He chose to select "peers" such as Bush rather than hire someone with a good street rep like Phillips. (I use Wade only as example as he was under contract.)

He has put up with Ric Smith being mediocre. How can he bring in street rejects and get a year or two and sign UDFA like Foster and is pretty good with end round draft picks but can't get a 2nd, 3rd or 4th right? What happened with Caldwell? Heck even my guy Brandon Harris can't get on field and Smith can't even give a hint as to why? I say Smith had zero input into defensive picks made by Phillips.

This leads to the lack of depth this team has that when a Ryans goes out or AJ, neither Bentley nor JJ steps up. Sure I'm thrilled with Jacoby's performance Sunday but I could flip a coin and more easily decide what his next performance will look like.

The silly thing is this season could still end very well or it could go directly into the commode. The realistic thing is the season could just be another "Texans" season. Ho Hum.

eriadoc
10-18-2011, 10:31 PM
Shammy really let me down in that game....

Just out of curiosity, how does Schaub = Shammy? I've seen someone else on here say it as well. Just wondering how that was derived. If anything, shouldn't it be Shabby?

Actually, that works on multiple levels.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 02:44 AM
He chose to select "peers" such as Bush rather than hire someone with a good street rep like Phillips. (I use Wade only as example as he was under contract.)


I bet Andy Reid is kicking himself in the rump for not going out & getting a proven DC....... HOF coach my ass.

TheMatrix31
10-19-2011, 02:46 AM
Andy Reid is an insanely overrated coach.

I can't wait until Kubiak is fired and people here clamor for him to come in.

Andy Reid is a poster child for horrible gameday coach.

imatexan
10-19-2011, 05:51 AM
After a win against Tenn people will be drinking the :koolaid: again.

Never fails, fans over react win or lose.

Lucky
10-19-2011, 07:03 AM
Andy Reid is a poster child for horrible gameday coach.
Not sure how you win 7 division championships over 13 years in the NFL's toughest division and be a poster child for anything but winning. Regardless, Reid is still much, much better than Kubiak. Any favorable comparison is laughable.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 08:50 AM
After a win against Tenn people will be drinking the :koolaid: again.

Never fails, fans over react win or lose.

I'm already swinging back. A lot of the things I complained about aren't "exactly" true after I've gone back & watched the game. Some things are worse than I thought & I'd like to hear, or see something to make me believe the team is addressing those issues.

Matt Schaub... some of the decisions he made, like the overthrown ball to KDub in the 4th, on what could have been a game tying drive.... he had better options, why did he choose Walter? He had plenty of time, why did he overthrow it?

On our final drive, on that 4th down, why go to JJ? Mason's there, right there with looser coverage. OD would be free in a second, again, he had plenty of time, no reason to rush. But it's like he's rushing his decisions.

Rey
10-19-2011, 08:52 AM
Just out of curiosity, how does Schaub = Shammy? I've seen someone else on here say it as well. Just wondering how that was derived. If anything, shouldn't it be Shabby?

Actually, that works on multiple levels.

Blazing Arrow used to call him that all the time....It's like my ode to him...

Grams
10-19-2011, 10:04 AM
I'm already swinging back. A lot of the things I complained about aren't "exactly" true after I've gone back & watched the game. Some things are worse than I thought & I'd like to hear, or see something to make me believe the team is addressing those issues.

Matt Schaub... some of the decisions he made, like the overthrown ball to KDub in the 4th, on what could have been a game tying drive.... he had better options, why did he choose Walter? He had plenty of time, why did he overthrow it?

On our final drive, on that 4th down, why go to JJ? Mason's there, right there with looser coverage. OD would be free in a second, again, he had plenty of time, no reason to rush. But it's like he's rushing his decisions.

Maybe he is not getting enough sleep. Twins can be very detrimental to sleeping soundly.

Rey
10-19-2011, 10:18 AM
Maybe he is not getting enough sleep. Twins can be very detrimental to sleeping soundly.

If Shammy doesnt have a Nanny, he's doing it wrong...

Grams
10-19-2011, 10:56 AM
If Shammy doesnt have a Nanny, he's doing it wrong...

Why the name calling? What is wrong with just using a person's real name?
Would you call him Shammy to his face? If not - then why use it here?

TheMatrix31
10-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Not sure how you win 7 division championships over 13 years in the NFL's toughest division and be a poster child for anything but winning. Regardless, Reid is still much, much better than Kubiak. Any favorable comparison is laughable.

His gameday performance has steadily deteriorated and is pretty much an embarrassment and league-wide joke at this point. Obviously he's a better coach overall, my point is that it will be hilariously hypocritical for someone to want Reid to replace Kubiak when the situation arises. Why? Because they both have the exact same game management issues. People love a name.

houstonspartan
10-19-2011, 11:29 AM
Blazing Arrow used to call him that all the time....It's like my ode to him...

But how does Schaub = Shammy? I'm curious as well. Is it meant to imply that he's a sham?

Also, regarding him having new twins: Dude has millions and millions of dollars. I'm sure he's got a household full of nannies and will do just fine. Working class people struggle every day and manage to do their jobs. My boss has twins and comes in every day looking like a train wreck, but she manages.

houstonspartan
10-19-2011, 11:32 AM
His gameday performance has steadily deteriorated and is pretty much an embarrassment and league-wide joke at this point. Obviously he's a better coach overall, my point is that it will be hilariously hypocritical for someone to want Reid to replace Kubiak when the situation arises. Why? Because they both have the exact same game management issues. People love a name.

Could this be a case of simply "it's time to move on"? Sometimes people stay in one spot and just get stale. We saw the same thing with Shanahan in Denver and Fisher in Tennessee. Sometimes a fresh start is needed. It's possible Reid is still a decent coach, he's just gotten too comfortable. Just a thought.

TheMatrix31
10-19-2011, 11:51 AM
Could this be a case of simply "it's time to move on"? Sometimes people stay in one spot and just get stale. We saw the same thing with Shanahan in Denver and Fisher in Tennessee. Sometimes a fresh start is needed. It's possible Reid is still a decent coach, he's just gotten too comfortable. Just a thought.

It most definitely could be. However, I've noticed that a lot of the times, even in the early run, the Philly success came in spite of Andy Reid rather than because of him. That Jim Johnson coordination was critical.

Rey
10-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Why the name calling? What is wrong with just using a person's real name?
Would you call him Shammy to his face? If not - then why use it here?

I don't call him Shammy to poke fun at him. And LOL....Yes I'd call him Shammy to his face....


But how does Schaub = Shammy? I'm curious as well. Is it meant to imply that he's a sham?

Ummm...No...

It's just a name...

Thorn
10-19-2011, 11:55 AM
Re: The state of the team

.....highly questionable.....