PDA

View Full Version : Raiders reportedly trying to acquire Palmer/UPDATE/aquired


srrono
10-17-2011, 12:07 AM
nfl NFL
Raiders reportedly trying to acquire Palmer from Bengals: http://bit.ly/pYWAFR


The Raiders lost starting quarterback Jason Campbell with a broken collarbone during their 24-17 victory over the Cleveland Browns.

NitroGSXR
10-17-2011, 12:21 AM
In memorium of Al Davis... next year's first, Seymour, and McClain for Schaub and Holliday!!!!

:spit:

Hookem Horns
10-17-2011, 01:04 AM
They are saying that Brown won't give in and trade Palmer. If that doesn't go through there is another team in the NFC with 2 backups.

Could it be ...

:vincepalm:

srrono
10-18-2011, 09:03 AM
JayGlazer Jay Glazer
The Raiders & Bengals are close to a trade that would send Carson Palmer to OAK for a first-rounder in 2012 and a conditional pick in future

JayGlazer Jay Glazer
The trade is expected to be completed by deadline. Hue Jackson has a close relationship w Mike Brown and really worked to get Brown to budge

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 09:06 AM
JayGlazer Jay Glazer
The Raiders & Bengals are close to a trade that would send Carson Palmer to OAK for a first-rounder in 2012 and a conditional pick in future

JayGlazer Jay Glazer
The trade is expected to be completed by deadline. Hue Jackson has a close relationship w Mike Brown and really worked to get Brown to budge

Sounds like a play-offs or bust.. a true definition.

Get'R done!!

False Start
10-18-2011, 09:16 AM
A first rounder for Carson Palmer?! :spit:

srrono
10-18-2011, 09:30 AM
AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Carson Palmer to the Raiders now official. Compensation expected to be a 1 in 2012 and a conditional 1 in 2013.

TheMatrix31
10-18-2011, 09:31 AM
LMAO. The Raiders only have a 5th and 6th this coming draft

NitroGSXR
10-18-2011, 09:33 AM
AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Carson Palmer to the Raiders now official. Compensation expected to be a 1 in 2012 and a conditional 1 in 2013.

HOLY ****!! The spirit of Al Davis lives on!!!!!!!!!

:spit:

NitroGSXR
10-18-2011, 09:34 AM
A first rounder for Carson Palmer?! :spit:

Two first rounders! TWO!!!!!!

srrono
10-18-2011, 09:35 AM
i am all for being aggressive but this is crazy two #1 picks wow

JayGlazer Jay Glazer
Trade is for a first-rounder in 2012 then a second rounder in future that can turn into a first-rounder based on his play
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Ľ

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 09:42 AM
In memorium of Al Davis... next year's first, Seymour, and McClain for Schaub and Holliday!!!!

:spit:

I thought you said "in memorium" not "in disrespect". Davis didn't make trades unless he thought he was getting the upper hand, i.e., Willie Brown, Mike Haynes, Richard Seymour, etc. . . Yeah, there was the Randy Moss fiasco, but you have to consider it was Moss we're talking about. Why are you disrespecting the dead with your jokes?

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 09:45 AM
LMAO. The Raiders only have a 5th and 6th this coming draft

And compensatory picks for losing Aso, Gallery and Miller; less what they gained with Boss. So, you know they'll at least get a 3rd rounder (which can't be traded) plus maybe a 4th or so. Besides, historically the Raiders don't do well picking in the 1st, but kick butt in the later rounds. Then again, that was when Davis was calling the shots, so we'll have to see how they do now deep in the draft.

False Start
10-18-2011, 09:48 AM
Two first rounders! TWO!!!!!!

Wow.... :faildetector:

b0ng
10-18-2011, 09:48 AM
This has to be some sort of error in reporting. A first for Carson Palmer is an overpay, but possibly two firsts is a massive, what-the-****-are-you-thinking-why-are-you-doing-this-to-your-franchise-jesus-christ overpay. I mean, they probably could've talked the Eagles out of Vince Young for far less compensation.

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 09:50 AM
Two first rounders! TWO!!!!!!

Hate to lose 1st rounders that could be used on players like JaBustus . . . oh, wait a minute. . . .

Anyway, the Raiders have a very, very, young and talented team, so they should be fine without a few high draft picks over the next couple years. I mean, Richard Seymour, G Cooper Carlise and RT Khalif Barnes, are really the only guys that will likely need to be replaced over the next couple years.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 09:53 AM
Hate to lose 1st rounders that could be used on players like JaBustus . . . oh, wait a minute. . . .

Anyway, the Raiders have a very, very, young and talented team, so they should be fine with out a few high draft picks over the next couple years. I mean, Richard Seymour, G Cooper Carlise and RT Khalif Barnes, are really the only guys that will likely need to be replaced over the next few years.

This is a really not-so-smart way of doing things for a GM. Not having draft picks is going to hurt your team regardless of who was picked in previous first rounds and on.

I know Asomugha was a first round draft pick so it's not all bad. And with how bad of a draft history the Texans have with first rounders (Carr, T. Johnson, Babin, Okoye, Jackson) I'd still be pissed if I had to give up a first for the likes of a guy like Carson Palmer. Palmer hasn't been good since what, 2007?

EDIT: Jay Glazer: Trade is for a first-rounder in 2012 then a second rounder in future that can turn into a first-rounder based on his play

This is worse than the Roy Williams deal.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 09:54 AM
http://i.imgur.com/Zyhel.jpg

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 10:05 AM
Wow.... :faildetector:

Win-Win

Raiders are trying to get to the Big Dance and needed a QB now that Campbell is down. Hue Jackson had worked with Palmer for years and know exactly what he is getting and how he will work in the Raiders' offense. Bengals have their QB of the future, and needed some picks to help him out down the road. Win-Win

b0ng
10-18-2011, 10:09 AM
Win-Win

Raiders are trying to get to the Big Dance and needed a QB now that Campbell is down. Hue Jackson had worked with Palmer for years and know exactly what he is getting and how he will work in the Raiders' offense. Bengals have their QB of the future, and needed some picks to help him out down the road. Win-Win

You gave up a first round draft pick, and at least a second round draft pick the year after that could become a first again, to a team that you will probably be battling a lot in the future, for a guy who has been injured, sat out this whole season (the season on which you are going to rely on him probably the most) and hasn't really been that good since like 2007 2008ish. It's a bad deal.

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 10:11 AM
This is a really not-so-smart way of doing things for a GM. Not having draft picks is going to hurt your team regardless of who was picked in previous first rounds and on.

I know Asomugha was a first round draft pick so it's not all bad. And with how bad of a draft history the Texans have with first rounders (Carr, T. Johnson, Babin, Okoye, Jackson) I'd still be pissed if I had to give up a first for the likes of a guy like Carson Palmer. Palmer hasn't been good since what, 2007?

EDIT: Jay Glazer: Trade is for a first-rounder in 2012 then a second rounder in future that can turn into a first-rounder based on his play

This is worse than the Roy Williams deal.

So you think the Raiders would be better off flushing this season down the drain and saving a couple of picks that may work out, get used to losing again, and change the atmosphere in the locker room rather than try to continue improving with a QB that Hue Jackson has worked with before and that knows Hue's offense? Got it! :vincepalm:

Dutchrudder
10-18-2011, 10:17 AM
So you think the Raiders would be better off flushing this season down the drain and saving a couple of picks that may work out, get used to losing again, and change the atmosphere in the locker room rather than try to continue improving with a QB that Hue Jackson has worked with before and that knows Hue's offense? Got it! :vincepalm:

No, he's saying it was a terrible value given the low expectations of Palmer. Go get Kyle Orton from the Broncos, or VY from the Eagles, or even McNabb from the Vikings would be better. At least we know those guys are in football shape and won't cost about 6 million dollars as a rental for the rest of the season. Even Matt Leinart and Mike Kafka sound like a better options than Palmer at this point.

Edit: Congratz to the Bungles on moving up to the 31st worst managed team in the NFL! You have finally gotten the best of the previously second to last team!

b0ng
10-18-2011, 10:19 AM
So you think the Raiders would be better off flushing this season down the drain and saving a couple of picks that may work out, get used to losing again, and change the atmosphere in the locker room rather than try to continue improving with a QB that Hue Jackson has worked with before and that knows Hue's offense? Got it! :vincepalm:

Why give up that much compensation for a guy like Palmer? Quick, name me QB's you'd trade a first round pick and a 2012 either second or first round pick for.

NitroGSXR
10-18-2011, 10:21 AM
I thought you said "in memorium" not "in disrespect". Davis didn't make trades unless he thought he was getting the upper hand, i.e., Willie Brown, Mike Haynes, Richard Seymour, etc. . . Yeah, there was the Randy Moss fiasco, but you have to consider it was Moss we're talking about. Why are you disrespecting the dead with your jokes?

Traded away or not, Al Davis brought down wrath on all those first rounders these past few years.

Because it IS a joke. Lighten up, Francis.

Dutchrudder
10-18-2011, 10:24 AM
Why give up that much compensation for a guy like Palmer? Quick, name me QB's you'd trade a first round pick and a 2012 either second or first round pick for.

Well the one's I listed I wouldn't expect to give up more than a conditional 3/4 for them. I'm sure the Vikings would be happy to ship McNabb off for a 5/6th, I bet Orton could be had for a 3rd, VY probably for a 4th as Kafka looked alright backing up Vick.

Two firsts though? What other QB out there is on the block that may warrant that sort of compensation? Sam Bradford? Matt Schaub...? Crazy.

ChampionTexan
10-18-2011, 10:24 AM
So you think the Raiders would be better off flushing this season down the drain and saving a couple of picks that may work out, get used to losing again, and change the atmosphere in the locker room rather than try to continue improving with a QB that Hue Jackson has worked with before and that knows Hue's offense? Got it! :vincepalm:

We'll see how it turns out. I have very low expectations for Palmer - which as both a Texans and Chiefs fan makes me feel good about this trade. Only way to find out if that's justified is to let this season - and the next couple - play out.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 10:29 AM
I liked the idea of going after Palmer, but two firsts? A first & a second? When you're happy with Campbell & expecting him back next year? You're not doing Campbell any favors by not getting him some help (offensive or defensive) in the upcoming years.

I understand the win now mentality, but not at the cost of the future.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 10:30 AM
Well the one's I listed I wouldn't expect to give up more than a conditional 3/4 for them. I'm sure the Vikings would be happy to ship McNabb off for a 5/6th, I bet Orton could be had for a 3rd, VY probably for a 4th as Kafka looked alright backing up Vick.

Two firsts though? What other QB out there is on the block that may warrant that sort of compensation? Sam Bradford? Matt Schaub...? Crazy.

I'm not trading 2 ****ing firsts unless it's some sort of deal like what the Bears had to give up for Jay Cutler (Who was currently playing in the league, did not have a terrible injury history and was considered "pretty good" at that time). Carson Palmer right now, is nowhere near as good as what Jay Cutler was considered back then.

With this trade the Raiders are basically telling Jason Campbell to **** off because Carson Palmer is their guy (Jason Campbell being a guy whom you traded a 4th rounder in this years draft for) no matter what kind of shape Palmer is currently in.

Palmer will be better than Kyle Boller, and should give the Raiders more than what Jason Campbell did, which will be nice, and probably worth a 2nd. . . which is why everybody is saying the Raiders are an organization that isn't run very well.

steelbtexan
10-18-2011, 10:31 AM
Some teams that want to win now trade future draft picks for guys that can contribute now.

Other teams wont trade a 5th rd pick for a pro bowl caliber player. Thanks for nothing (Lloyd)

The Raiders are going for it. This is a risky pickup, I comend the Raiders for taking a chance and improving their team. Unlike some other teams.

Besides they needed a QB and Palmer already knows the offense, who would they have drafted that's better than Palmer in the mid to late 20's ?

steelbtexan
10-18-2011, 10:35 AM
You gave up a first round draft pick, and at least a second round draft pick the year after that could become a first again, to a team that you will probably be battling a lot in the future, for a guy who has been injured, sat out this whole season (the season on which you are going to rely on him probably the most) and hasn't really been that good since like 2007 2008ish. It's a bad deal.

Would you give up 2 1st rd picks for 4 yrs of above avg QB play and a playoff berth? I know I would.

Palmer has a good 3-4 yrs left in him.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 10:36 AM
Some teams that want to win now trade future draft picks for guys that can contribute now.

Other teams wont trade a 5th rd pick for a pro bowl caliber player. Thanks for nothing (Lloyd)

The Raiders are going for it. This is a risky pickup, I comend the Raiders for taking a chance and improving their team. Unlike some other teams.

Besides they needed a QB and Palmer already knows the offense, who would they have drafted that's better than Palmer in the mid to late 20's ?

Apparently Andy Dalton is better than what Carson Palmer was so hey! Also, it's not as if QB is the only place on the roster that the Raiders could stand to upgrade. What if Carson Palmer gives you the Quarterbacking equivalent of Roy Williams in a Cowboys uniform (Basically continues playing as if he's in decline like he has the last 2 or 3 years)? What then? You just gave up a 1st, a 4th in 2012 and possibly another 1st but most likely a 2nd in 2013 for two guys who are clearly not the answer.

I mean ****, Denver is starting Tebow now, you probably could've gotten Kyle Orton for much much much less.

silentassassin
10-18-2011, 10:36 AM
Some teams that want to win now trade future draft picks for guys that can contribute now.

Other teams wont trade a 5th rd pick for a pro bowl caliber player. Thanks for nothing (Lloyd)

The Raiders are going for it. This is a risky pickup, I comend the Raiders for taking a chance and improving their team. Unlike some other teams.

Besides they needed a QB and Palmer already knows the offense, who would they have drafted that's better than Palmer in the mid to late 20's ?

This. I think they would regret it much more if they just rested on their laurels and let this season potentially go to waste because they lost their quarterback. I'm sure a lot of people will rip on the Raiders today for giving up so much for Palmer, but the fact is they're willing to take the risk instead of die by their own sword. Granted, there's no guarantee Palmer will be the answer to move forward this season, but there wasn't a guarantee that keeping the picks and going with what you had would enable you to get into the playoffs either.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 10:38 AM
Would you give up 2 1st rd picks for 4 yrs of above avg QB play and a playoff berth? I know I would.

Palmer has a good 3-4 yrs left in him.

How do you know that? Cause he was so good for the Bengals in '09 and '10? And how do you know he's going to even give you average QB play or that a playoff berth is garunteed?

On top of that you may have just ****ed yourself because you gave a team that you might be competing with for WC spots a dickload of high draft picks.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 11:03 AM
MortReport: Conditional pick in 2013 is 1st rounder if Raiders win 1 playoff game or it's a 2nd rounder. Still get the 1st rounder next April.

heh.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 11:06 AM
Would you give up 2 1st rd picks for 4 yrs of above avg QB play and a playoff berth? I know I would.

Palmer has a good 3-4 yrs left in him.

If we're going to crystal ball it.... why not.

It might turn out to be as good as the Brees signing in Nawlins, then it's worth it, no doubt.

But it might turn out no better than the Culpepper or McNabb deals.

I applaud them for not sitting on their hands, but you have to consider the price. We're not talking about Tim Tebow here.
:kitten:

ChampionTexan
10-18-2011, 11:08 AM
How do you know that? Cause he was so good for the Bengals in '09 and '10? And how do you know he's going to even give you average QB play or that a playoff berth is garunteed?

On top of that you may have just ****ed yourself because you gave a team that you might be competing with for WC spots a dickload of high draft picks.

I think Carson Palmer may very well end up being the 2011 version of 2010 Donovan McNabb (well, except for the fact that Donovan McNabb has already claimed that label).

IDEXAN
10-18-2011, 11:15 AM
There's one thing that is clear now: Big Al didn't die, he's alive and kicking because only that crazy ole guy would roll the dice I such a risky deal as this surely appears to be. The Bengals oughta be locked up for the way they swindled the Raiders on this deal.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 11:30 AM
Carson Palmer's base salaries going forward: $11.5 million (2011), $11.5 million (2012), $13 million (2013), $14 million (2014).

lawl

eriadoc
10-18-2011, 11:57 AM
There was a time when Palmer was worth two first round picks. Yesterday was not that time.

The most delusional fan on this board isn't even a Texans fan.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 12:06 PM
It's a conditional pick right? Raiders are going all in this season. They will make the playoffs and don't have to roll a chump out as a qb now. They have 4 Lombardi trophies in 4 different decades....it may work out for them. Hell, we took 0k0ye and Dunta in the first round and neither player is here now.

Naiirb
10-18-2011, 12:18 PM
The city of Cincinnati should be thanking Jason Cambell's collar bone right about now. Mike Brown was never gonna trade him unless he got a ridiculous offer and along came the Raiders.

b0ng
10-18-2011, 12:26 PM
It's a conditional pick right? Raiders are going all in this season. They will make the playoffs and don't have to roll a chump out as a qb now. They have 4 Lombardi trophies in 4 different decades....it may work out for them. Hell, we took 0k0ye and Dunta in the first round and neither player is here now.

No, it's a first in 2012 and a conditional first in 2013.

HOU-TEX
10-18-2011, 12:31 PM
Do the Raiders have any draft picks left? Geesh

b0ng
10-18-2011, 12:37 PM
Do the Raiders have any draft picks left? Geesh

Currently a 5th and a 6th.

IDEXAN
10-18-2011, 01:04 PM
No, it's a first in 2012 and a conditional first in 2013.
Worst case scenario for '13 pick is a 2nd rounder.
Damn, I wish somebody from the texans' org would have already approached Oakland about a trade for Mario.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 01:04 PM
A first rounder for Carson Palmer?! :spit:

Currently a 5th and a 6th.

Oakland gets mid-rd FA comp picks for Robert Gallery, Nnamdi Asomugha, Zach Miller, and Thomas Howard

b0ng
10-18-2011, 01:20 PM
Oakland gets mid-rd FA comp picks for Robert Gallery, Nnamdi Asomugha, Zach Miller, and Thomas Howard

That's why I qualified my statement with the word currently.

badboy
10-18-2011, 01:31 PM
Great move by Bengals.

TexanSam
10-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Wow. Is Al Davis' ghost wandering around making trades? I realize they'd like to stay in playoff contention but that's a lot to give up for a guy who hasn't played well in 3 or 4 years.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 01:59 PM
Oakland gets mid-rd FA comp picks for Robert Gallery, Nnamdi Asomugha, Zach Miller, and Thomas Howard

Do we know this? Doesn't it depend on how their replacements played?

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 02:39 PM
No, he's saying it was a terrible value given the low expectations of Palmer. Go get Kyle Orton from the Broncos, or VY from the Eagles, or even McNabb from the Vikings would be better. At least we know those guys are in football shape and won't cost about 6 million dollars as a rental for the rest of the season. Even Matt Leinart and Mike Kafka sound like a better options than Palmer at this point.

Edit: Congratz to the Bungles on moving up to the 31st worst managed team in the NFL! You have finally gotten the best of the previously second to last team!

But the Raiders are trying to when NOW! Orton and VY would not be the solution if you're trying to win. Palmer may also not be the solution, but at least he has a track record that proves he can win, most recently 2009 when he took the Bungles to 10-6. Besides, Palmer has the arm to make the throws the Raiders need to match the speed they have at WR. This makes defenses back-up allowing them to run more effectively. So, it was more a matter of trying to find a QB that matches the system, than who is the cheapest QB available.

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 03:06 PM
I liked the idea of going after Palmer . . . I understand the win now mentality, but not at the cost of the future.

The future is now, the Raiders do not want to return to mediocrity and this is their chance to get back to their winning ways.

Some teams that want to win now trade future draft picks for guys that can contribute now.

Other teams wont trade a 5th rd pick for a pro bowl caliber player. Thanks for nothing (Lloyd)

The Raiders are going for it. This is a risky pickup, I comend the Raiders for taking a chance and improving their team. Unlike some other teams.

Besides they needed a QB and Palmer already knows the offense, who would they have drafted that's better than Palmer in the mid to late 20's ?

It is funny how some Texan fans are blasting the Raiders for making a ballsy move, yet are crying because the Texans front office tends to do what these fans say the Raiders should be doing, i.e., waiting until next year! Come on now guys, how well has standing pat worked for the Texans???? At least the Raiders are willing to throw the dice, and don't just keep holding them in their hands because they're afraid to crap out. No guts, no glory, just ask Kubiak and the gang.

This. I think they would regret it much more if they just rested on their laurels and let this season potentially go to waste because they lost their quarterback. I'm sure a lot of people will rip on the Raiders today for giving up so much for Palmer, but the fact is they're willing to take the risk instead of die by their own sword. Granted, there's no guarantee Palmer will be the answer to move forward this season, but there wasn't a guarantee that keeping the picks and going with what you had would enable you to get into the playoffs either.

Exactly. At least the Raiders can say they tried. Sitting back and doing nothing or picking up a scrub QB would only assure the Raiders slide back into the basement in the AFCW. It took too long to get out this last time, so with the youth and talent on their roster, they made a move to improve the team so they can go forward and try and win the AFCW and more. Who here would fault the Texans for doing the same?

It's a conditional pick right? Raiders are going all in this season. They will make the playoffs and don't have to roll a chump out as a qb now. They have 4 Lombardi trophies in 4 different decades....it may work out for them. Hell, we took 0k0ye and Dunta in the first round and neither player is here now.

Thanks for the extra Lombardi, but they only have 3 in 5 appearances. Personally, I like the move because in doing so the Raiders have traded two unknown quantities for 1 known quantity.

Hey, a couple years ago the Raiders traded their 1st for a guy named Seymour and everyone laughed. The Patriots picked OL Nate Solder with the pick the Raiders traded them. People aren't laughing any more, as the Patriots really miss Seymour on their DL, and Solder isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

Look at it this way, if things go right the Raiders traded a 1st round pick in the 20's next year, and who knows what the following year, but lets say it is a 1st rounder also. Recent history in the NFL tells us that one of those two picks will likely be a Vernon Gholston type bust, whereas the other pick will likely be fair-to-good. So, the Raiders may only really lose out on one good player for another. Also, look at the moves the Raiders have made lately, like a 4th rounders for Aaron Curry, who looked very good last week. So, instead of draft picks like JaBustus Russell and Heyward-Bey (who is coming on after 3 years), they opted for players like Richard Seymour, Aaron Curry and Carson Palmer.

infantrycak
10-18-2011, 03:25 PM
Could work out if Palmer makes a play for comeback player of the year. His decision making has been off and he has been throwing too many INT's. VY and "he just wins," who knows what the Eagles would have given him up for. He has the arm but poor accuracy. Having said that, McFadden is a good pairing with him with the speed to stretch the field. Playing GM I would have tried real hard for VY for a 3rd. Interesting move. Price seems too high to me but might work out.

Dutchrudder
10-18-2011, 03:30 PM
But the Raiders are trying to when NOW! Orton and VY would not be the solution if you're trying to win. Palmer may also not be the solution, but at least he has a track record that proves he can win, most recently 2009 when he took the Bungles to 10-6. Besides, Palmer has the arm to make the throws the Raiders need to match the speed they have at WR. This makes defenses back-up allowing them to run more effectively. So, it was more a matter of trying to find a QB that matches the system, than who is the cheapest QB available.

Orton would have been a great pickup if we're talking about winning now. Check out his stats vs Palmer from LAST year. Not 2007, or 09, but last year.

Orton (13 games): 58.8% comp, 3,653 yards, 20 TD, 9 INT, 1 Fum, 87.5 QB rating - 28 Years old, 2011 cap #: $8,879,000 (last year of his deal)
Palmer(16 games): 61.8% comp, 3,970 yards, 26 TD, 20 INT, 3 Fum, 82.4 QB rating - 31 years old, 2011 cap #: $16,250,000 (minus prorated games + 42 mill for the next 3 years)

Yeah, Orton for a 2nd or 3rd is clearly the better option (given the price of Palmer) as their numbers are similar enough. He's younger, in a contract year, and won't be expensive down the road.

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 03:33 PM
Was just watching NFLN and they are saying the Raiders very well may NOW be the team to beat in the AFCW. Called Palmer a good QB, and said his skills have not diminished. They also were talking to Mark Purdy of the San Jose Mercury News, and he said most Raider fans are fine with the trade because they want to win now, said that maybe 7 fans don't like it because they are worried about 2013 (it was a joke, but makes his point).

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 04:50 PM
Yeah, Orton for a 2nd or 3rd is clearly the better option (given the price of Palmer) as their numbers are similar enough. He's younger, in a contract year, and won't be expensive down the road.

Do the Raiders have a 2nd or 3rd? It would have probably have had to been 2013s 1st & 2nd. Who's going to give up a 1st & 2nd for Orton?

Dutchrudder
10-18-2011, 05:05 PM
Do the Raiders have a 2nd or 3rd? It would have probably have had to been 2013s 1st & 2nd. Who's going to give up a 1st & 2nd for Orton?

The key word was 'or'. There was speculation of trade talks and a contract extension for Orton during the preseason, but the trade didn't happen. Speculation was largely in the area of a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him.

Kyle Orton, QB, Broncos: Whether or not the Broncos can find a taker for Orton, whatever the price may be, has been a question that’s lingered since last year. Orton seemed headed to Miami during the preseason, but the two teams couldn’t reach a deal. Then there's this:

The Dolphins no longer appear to be a viable option, but with Tim Tebow apparently taking over in Denver, Orton’s days as a Bronco look numbered. Would Denver trade him within the division to Oakland? The Raiders need a quarterback now, after Jason Campbell broke his collarbone Sunday, and the Broncos reportedly wouldn’t be opposed to the move.

http://nfl.si.com/2011/10/17/nfl-trade-deadline-could-see-more-action-than-normal/

Trading Orton is a no-brainer if you're in the Bronco's organization, even if it's to a division rival. Last year of his deal, he's costing you about 500k per game to ride the bench behind Tebow, he doesn't mean anything to the organization and they are 1-4 and out of playoff contention. A 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th would be like getting free money for the Broncos as the savings alone would be worth it. My guess is that the Raiders weren't interested, but my overall point is that you don't get anything more from Palmer than you would from Orton, except the bill is 8 million and 2 arms+2 legs more expensive.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 05:17 PM
The key word was 'or'. There was speculation of trade talks and a contract extension for Orton during the preseason, but the trade didn't happen. Speculation was largely in the area of a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him.



So you're saying they do have a 2nd or 3rd in the upcoming draft?

I'm asking, because everyone else is saying they don't.

Dutchrudder
10-18-2011, 05:27 PM
So you're saying they do have a 2nd or 3rd in the upcoming draft?

I'm asking, because everyone else is saying they don't.

They have their 2013 draft picks if needed, or trade 2012 5th and 6th instead. Orton is costing the Broncos a lot of money to do essentially nothing, so a 5th today might get the deal done. Either way, this is a terrible deal for them that can only be overcome by an AFC championship appearance. Anything less will be a massive failure.

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 05:47 PM
My guess is that the Raiders weren't interested, but my overall point is that you don't get anything more from Palmer than you would from Orton, except the bill is 8 million and 2 arms+2 legs more expensive.

Actually, I'm hearing that Palmer pared down his contract this year so the Raiders will only pay him $2.5M. Plus, he has been working out on the side with WRs and such, and is said to look good.

Personally, I think this trade keeps the Raiders relevant this year, whereas they were going to possibly tank without him.

T.J. Housh, Hines Ward, Kurt Warner, and several others are saying it will be a good deal for the Raiders; I happen to agree. It may have been costly with regard to draft picks, but the Raiders haven't ever really valued the "two birds in the bush" since they prefer the "bird in hand".

Dutchrudder
10-18-2011, 05:53 PM
Actually, I'm hearing that Palmer pared down his contract this year so the Raiders will only pay him $2.5M. Plus, he has been
working out on the side with WRs and such, and is said to look good.

If so, that makes this deal MUCH more palatable to me. That's actually a decent cost savings over Orton, who would cost a team about 5 million more for the rest of the year.


Personally, I think this trade keeps the Raiders relevant this year, whereas they were going to possibly tank without him.

I agree with that, I just think they overpaid by a lot. The Bengals weren't going to get anything out of Palmer otherwise, but it sounds like they took the Raiders to the cleaners by getting two picks instead of just a 2012 1st.


T.J. Housh, Hines Ward, Kurt Warner, and several others are saying it will be a good deal for the Raiders; I happen to agree. It may have been costly with regard to draft picks, but the Raiders haven't ever really valued the "two birds in the bush" since they prefer the "bird in hand".

Dude, they could be passing on the next Janikowski by giving up their 2013 1st!!!!

:D

LikeMike
10-18-2011, 06:29 PM
I was thinking that we should offer the Raiders Leinart after the injury... great move by the Bengals - ok move by the Raiders. I think Palmer is a great QB, but they gave up a whole lot to get him - and they are nowhere near a supberbowl contender yet.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 06:32 PM
I was thinking that we should offer the Raiders Leinart after the injury... great move by the Bengals - ok move by the Raiders. I think Palmer is a great QB, but they gave up a whole lot to get him - and they are nowhere near a supberbowl contender yet.
sure they are. Is it because you are a Texan fan and have been brainwashed to think that being good is some kind of massive multi-year building project? They just need a QB. There is just not that much difference between the top teams and the middle of the road teams...many times it's just a QB.

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 06:33 PM
From Sirius:

Gannon: “Now, on the flipside, let’s look at it from the Oakland Raiders’ perspective. [Head coach] Hue Jackson goes back with Carson Palmer a long, long way. They were together at USC when Carson was in college, they were together in Cincinnati, they have a very close relationship. My sense is that they were probably talking along the way. I’m sure Carson’s reached out to him for advice. I’m not so sure that Hue Jackson was convinced or sold on Jason Campbell. I think that was an Al Davis deal. Hue was doing the best he could. I think when Jason went down this opened up the door [to the] the possibility that they could do something with Carson. I think they got together as a staff, as an organization and said, ‘Let’s put our best foot forward and let’s see if we can address the quarterback situation for awhile.’ If they bring in Carson Palmer that’s it for Jason Campbell. You’re looking at Carson being the starting quarterback there for the next half dozen years. He is 31 years old, some people feel like his best days are behind him, but you look at what the Raiders gave up, not much of a draft left in 2012. The first four picks are all gone; they only have a 5 and a 6 left. I know there was some talk about they explored the possibility of a potential trade with Philadelphia for Vince Young. In my opinion, this is a much better deal for the Raiders. They get Carson Palmer, he can step in there and start tomorrow, he understands the system. I think this is great news if you’re a Raiders fan.”

Seymour then joins Gannon and his co-host Adam Schein on SiriusXM NFL Radio today to discuss the Palmer trade:

Seymour: “One thing that I can take from Carson is just him being a field general out on the field and his leadership ability to get some interesting guys together and try to get them all on the same page. I really remember him being out on the field and, in a sense, directing traffic, getting guys lined up and putting them in the right position. Obviously, it’ll be a learning curve for him because he hasn’t played football in awhile but I’m excited to have a leader on that side of the ball of his caliber. Anytime you have an opportunity to acquire someone of Carson’s pedigree I don’t think it’s something that you can pass up on. When you look at it, Carson and Hue Jackson’s days, they go back to USC when Carson was the Heisman Trophy winner, the first pick in the NFL Draft and a Pro Bowl quarterback. Just with that pedigree alone I think it brings a lot to what we’re trying to do and I think it’s also a statement from the Raiders in terms of the commitment to excellence. This is just another key ingredient to what we’re trying to accomplish.”

Seymour: “We’re going to welcome Carson in with open arms and have him be a part of the commitment to excellence here. I think this move was just another example of the Raiders’ commitment to excellence.”

On Jason Campbell:

Gannon: “I know this a part of the business but you’ve got to feel bad for Jason Campbell. I know he’s worked so hard at this. I thought he showed great leadership, along with yourself in the offseason, getting the players together to work out. What are your thoughts on what he’s going through right now?”

Seymour: “It has to be tough for him. Jason is a guy I have a ton of respect for. He’s one of the first guys into the building and one of the last to leave. He’s a total team player. Whatever is best for everybody, not necessarily what’s best for Jason, is what he’s all about. You can never have enough guys like that on your team. He obviously got the receivers together to get their timing down in the offseason. So Jason’s still going to be a leader for us and you never know when your number is going to be called in this business again.”

On the cost of acquiring Palmer:

Schein: “You’re a player. You want to win a Super Bowl right now, you want to make the playoffs right now. Do you care about the future necessarily in terms of trading all these draft picks? I’m asking you these questions because it’s part of the story here when you take a look at giving up all the draft picks for next year, when you look at Carson and Pryor and Campbell, you know, you guys don’t have a draft. You came from a place (New England) where they live for the Draft and they were successful stockpiling in the NFL Draft. Does that concern you?”

Seymour: “Well, in my eyes, back when I won the Super Bowl, we won the Super Bowl in 2004. It’s 2011 now so you can have as many Draft picks as you want to and say, ‘I have a good team,’ but at the end of the day, you know, the Packers are the only team that at the end of the day say, ‘Hey, we got it done.’ Obviously, you want to make smart business decisions in everything that you do. I mean, there was a lot of ‘Should they do it or shouldn’t they do it?’ in the process of picking me so it’s always going to be both sides of the spectrum. But at the end of the day it’s what that player does when he gets there that decides: Was it a good deal or wasn’t it a good deal? So, you know, it still remains to be seen. That chapter is still open.”

Follow me on Twitter: @corkonthenfl

http://www.ibabuzz.com/oaklandraider...de/#more-17536

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 07:28 PM
sure they are. Is it because you are a Texan fan and have been brainwashed to think that being good is some kind of massive multi-year building project?

What have they done this year that we haven't? Why is it easier to believe this isn't just another chapter in their multi-year building project?

Is it because you are a Texans fan that you have been brainwashed to think that other teams mediocrity is better than ours?

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 07:37 PM
From Sirius:ďNow, on the flipside, letís look at it from the Oakland Raidersí perspective. [Head coach] Hue Jackson goes back with Carson Palmer a long, long way. They were together at USC when Carson was in college, they were together in Cincinnati, they have a very close relationship. My sense is that they were probably talking along the way. Iím sure Carsonís reached out to him for advice.

Wouldn't this be considered tampering? If the Bengals (Mike Brown) wanted to push the issue, they could really screw the Raiders over on this one.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 07:39 PM
What have they done this year that we haven't? Why is it easier to believe this isn't just another chapter in their multi-year building project?

Is it because you are a Texans fan that you have been brainwashed to think that other teams mediocrity is better than ours?
It doesn't take that friggin' long to ramp it up if you are good at building a team. They've won their division three times the last ten years... and we have zero division titles in the last decade. The Raiders were in the Super Bowl 5 times with 4 different QB's. LaMonica, Stabler, Plunkett (twice) and Gannon. Sure, they have been down, but they've built good teams that have went to the Super Bowl with different players in just about every decade.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 08:17 PM
It doesn't take that friggin' long to ramp it up if you are good at building a team. They've won their division three times the last ten years... and we have zero division titles in the last decade. The Raiders were in the Super Bowl 5 times with 4 different QB's. LaMonica, Stabler, Plunkett (twice) and Gannon. Sure, they have been down, but they've built good teams that have went to the Super Bowl with different players in just about every decade.

This year. What has that "good" team done this year that makes them a good team this year & us chopped liver?

Cerberus
10-18-2011, 08:26 PM
This year. What has that "good" team done this year that makes them a good team this year & us chopped liver?

They've collected young players the past few years while struggling, and have put together a solid team in all three phases of the game. Face it, when it came down to it what beat the Texans was the Raiders' ST, i.e., Janokowski, the blocked punt, and field position from Lechler. Then you take the daring moves that Davis and now Jackson get roasted for, like drafting DHB or trading for Curry and Palmer, and you see a team that works at putting the pieces together. The Texans on the other hand tend to stay pat with what they have, in hopes it will somehow all work out one day. So, make fun of the Raiders' moves if you will, but at least when they see a weakness/problem they try and address it even if others think they paid too high a price; like Aaron Curry for a 4th rounder!

Dutchrudder
10-18-2011, 08:34 PM
Who made fun of the Aaron Curry trade? I would have liked the Texans to get him for a 4th.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 08:37 PM
They've collected young players the past few years while struggling, and have put together a solid team in all three phases of the game. Face it, when it came down to it what beat the Texans was the Raiders' ST, i.e., Janokowski, the blocked punt, and field position from Lechler. Then you take the daring moves that Davis and now Jackson get roasted for, like drafting DHB or trading for Curry and Palmer, and you see a team that works at putting the pieces together. The Texans on the other hand tend to stay pat with what they have, in hopes it will somehow all work out one day. So, make fun of the Raiders' moves if you will, but at least when they see a weakness/problem they try and address it even if others think they paid too high a price; like Aaron Curry for a 4th rounder!

The Raiders haven't done ****....... yet. If they're going to do something, they're going to do something & we can talk about that, then.

The question, is what have they done this year?

Beat the Broncos? woohoo... we beat the coltless Mannings.
Beat the Jets? woohoo... we beat the Steelers
Beat the Browns? woohoo... we beat the Dolphins.
Beat the Texans? woohoo... we beat them three times this year.

Got smoked by the Pats? ... we got beat by the Ravens
Lost a close one to Buffalo?... we lost a close one to the Raiders.

What the heck is so different here that "Oakland" is a good team & the "Texans" are not?

Kaiser Toro
10-18-2011, 09:52 PM
Bengals got a great deal. Palmer is an average QB on a good day. Karma and P-Buch are a beeotch.

The Cush
10-18-2011, 11:06 PM
What the heck is so different here that "Oakland" is a good team & the "Texans" are not?

The difference is that this fan base is full of the knee jerk extremists. We lose 1 game, we are instantly the worst team in the history of the NFL that will never amount to anything. Lose 2 games in a row, and this team needs to be moved. If we run off and win the next 3, this town will be planning out the path the parade will take downtown. Then we lose another and we're back to being worse than the Dolphins. You just happen to be having this argument coming off a couple of fresh losses, 1 to a solid Raiders team and another to a Super Bowl contender so we are currently in the "worst team ever" phase.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 11:11 PM
The difference is that this fan base is full of the knee jerk extremists. We lose 1 game, we are instantly the worst team in the history of the NFL that will never amount to anything. Lose 2 games in a row, and this team needs to be moved. If we run off and win the next 3, this town will be planning out the path the parade will take downtown. Then we lose another and we're back to being worse than the Dolphins. You just happen to be having this argument coming off a couple of fresh losses, 1 to a solid Raiders team and another to a Super Bowl contender so we are currently in the "worst team ever" phase.You do know that the Texans are 1-8 in their last 9 road games? No? Does that sound like a stat that supports happy fans? Does that sound like a playoff team type record?

The Cush
10-18-2011, 11:34 PM
You do know that the Texans are 1-8 in their last 9 road games? No? Does that sound like a stat that supports happy fans? Does that sound like a playoff team type record?

And 6 of those games are from last year. I don't view last year's team on the same level as this year's. We have more talent and a better defensive scheme and coaching staff. You can keep that mindset that this is last year all you want, I won't. It's like when a TV announcer brings up the stat, "well Team X is 35-65 all time on the road against Team Y history says it doesn't look good for them!" How is that relevant? The teams aren't the same

Vinny
10-18-2011, 11:37 PM
And 6 of those games are from last year. I don't view last year's team on the same level as this year's. We have more talent and a better defensive scheme and coaching staff. You can keep that mindset that this is last year all you want, I won't. It's like when a TV announcer brings up the stat, "well Team X is 35-65 all time on the road against Team Y history says it doesn't look good for them!" How is that relevant? The teams aren't the same
it ain't a minset, it's a fact. My opinion of the team is derived from what the team shows me. If your team loses its last 7 or 8 road games it has friggin' problems...pretty much period. Hopefully they can turn that around, but that's the same ol' song and dance we have heard for 6 years now. You go right ahead and pound your chest about how much potential the Texans have but potential means you haven't done it yet. I see it too, but I'm sick of talking about how they will be good tomorrow. They need to start being good NOW to get any real respect. Till then it's gonna be a lot of cynical fans. Sniffing flowers and chasing rainbows isn't the way I like to be a fan. I like good football, and I'll comment on bad football as long as there is more bad football than good football. Win some freaking road games vs good teams and then you will get fans who aren't so cynical.

Lucky
10-18-2011, 11:38 PM
Wouldn't this be considered tampering? If the Bengals (Mike Brown) wanted to push the issue, they could really screw the Raiders over on this one.
Screw the Raiders over more than coughing up (2) 1st round picks? Maybe you're on to something. Maybe the league found out about the tampering, and forced the Raiders to "trade" the picks for Palmer.

Damn, I think I was channeling GP with all of that speculation.

The Cush
10-18-2011, 11:50 PM
it ain't a minset, it's a fact. My opinion of the team is derived from what the team shows me. If your team loses its last 7 or 8 road games it has friggin' problems...pretty much period. Hopefully they can turn that around, but that's the same ol' song and dance we have heard for 6 years now. You go right ahead and pound your chest about how much potential the Texans have but potential means you haven't done it yet.

Again, you bring up a stat from last year trying to pertain it to this year. Why? Is that Jason Allen starting opposite Kareem Jackson still? Zac Diles, Bernard Pollard, Eugene Wilson, are you guys still out there? Amobi Okoye, you look a lot like JJ Watt! That's fine if you would have said we are 1-2 this year on the road, that would be more relevant. I'm not pounding my chest at potential, I'm actually looking at the CURRENT product on the field. We are 3-3 but, how many quarters has this team trailed? Like a total of 7 maybe out of the 24? Who have we lost to? 2 Super Bowl contenders on the road and a solid Raiders team. Did we get our asses kicked in that game? It would seem like it by how you are acting. I would be more understanding of your side if they were losses to the Browns and the Vikings on the road.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 11:57 PM
Again, you bring up a stat from last year trying to pertain it to this year. Why? Is that Jason Allen starting opposite Kareem Jackson still? Zac Diles, Bernard Pollard, Eugene Wilson, are you guys still out there? Amobi Okoye, you look a lot like JJ Watt! That's fine if you would have said we are 1-2 this year on the road, that would be more relevant. I'm not pounding my chest at potential, I'm actually looking at the CURRENT product on the field. We are 3-3 but, how many quarters has this team trailed? Like a total of 7 maybe out of the 24? Who have we lost to? 2 Super Bowl contenders on the road and a solid Raiders team. Did we get our asses kicked in that game? It would seem like it by how you are acting. I would be more understanding of your side if they were losses to the Browns and the Vikings on the road.
ok, have it your way. two road games this year. two losses. Viola - Same crap, different year. You gotta be able to beat good teams to be considered a good team. Is that so hard to understand?

bo orlando
10-18-2011, 11:58 PM
it ain't a minset, it's a fact. My opinion of the team is derived from what the team shows me. If your team loses its last 7 or 8 road games it has friggin' problems...pretty much period. Hopefully they can turn that around, but that's the same ol' song and dance we have heard for 6 years now. You go right ahead and pound your chest about how much potential the Texans have but potential means you haven't done it yet. I see it too, but I'm sick of talking about how they will be good tomorrow. They need to start being good NOW to get any real respect. Till then it's gonna be a lot of cynical fans. Sniffing flowers and chasing rainbows isn't the way I like to be a fan. I like good football, and I'll comment on bad football as long as there is more bad football than good football. Win some freaking road games vs good teams and then you will get fans who aren't so cynical.

I agree completely. Say the Texans win the division this year-- how far are they going to get in the playoffs with Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson as CB2 & 3? How can you not upgrade such a key position in a passing league, especially when it doesn't take much to upgrade? Who knows what happens next year or the year after? Andre Johnson could suddenly lose a step, or Schaub gets some major injury that puts him out for the year. The point is that they are good now, and the team has a uniquely easy path to a home playoff game right now.

The Cush
10-19-2011, 12:09 AM
ok, have it your way. two road games this year. two losses. Viola - Same crap, different year. You gotta be able to beat good teams to be considered a good team. Is that so hard to understand?

It's actually 3 road games and 2 losses! But going back to your previous post that you added on to earlier. This is the NOW. I'm not sniffing flowers, I'm just not being jaded like you and acting like the season is over after week 6. (Yes, I remember you were the one that made a thread about if the playoffs started after Week 6...who does that?) If they end up not winning another road game this year, then I'm all aboard for shredding this team with criticism. They could win out, they could lose out, they could play .500 ball, they could play .800 ball. I want to see the ENTIRE season play out before I write them off as being good or bad

Vinny
10-19-2011, 12:11 AM
It's actually 3 road games and 2 losses! But going back to your previous post that you added on to earlier. This is the NOW. I'm not sniffing flowers, I'm just not being jaded like you and acting like the season is over after week 6. (Yes, I remember you were the one that made a thread about if the playoffs started after Week 6...who does that?) If they end up not winning another road game this year, then I'm all aboard for shredding this team with criticism. They could win out, they could lose out, they could play .500 ball, they could play .800 ball. I want to see the ENTIRE season play out before I write them off as not being good or badIt's not an act and I'm not jaded. I comment on what I see. If I see something different, I say something different. they could do this, they could do that...eh, show me something on Sunday and beat the Titans.


Teams that beat good teams get one of these :trophy:

teams that play hard, look good and lose get these http://www.teachthis.com.au/images/uploads/products/thumbs/1238169407Participation%20Ribbons.jpg

The Cush
10-19-2011, 12:14 AM
It's not an act and I'm not jaded. I comment on what I see. If I see something different, I say something different. they could do this, they could do that...eh, show me something on Sunday and beat the Titans.


If they win..then what? Are you back on board to being a believer? You see what I mean when I said this fan base is full of the knee jerk extremist and that we are currently in the "this is a horrible team" phase

Vinny
10-19-2011, 12:21 AM
If they win..then what? Are you back on board to being a believer? You see what I mean when I said this fan base is full of the knee jerk extremist and that we are currently in the "this is a horrible team" phase
dude, this ain't a religion. I just comment on what I see. You sure are judgmental when it comes to others opinions. Go take a nap or something. This old man is going to bed.

The Cush
10-19-2011, 12:25 AM
dude, this ain't a religion. I just comment on what I see. You sure are judgmental when it comes to others opinions. Go take a nap or something. This old man is going to bed.

Hey, I just comment on what I see.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 12:29 AM
Hey, I just comment on what I see.
Im critical of the Texans and you are being critical of me. Hey, whatever floats your boat. I don't think you are wrong to buy into your team...I've watched a ton of NFL action since I first started going to games about 40 years ago. I've seen a lot of football in my day and I'm just not gonna confuse hamburger patties with steak.

take it easy, Im out

The Cush
10-19-2011, 12:37 AM
Im critical of the Texans and you are being critical of me. Hey, whatever floats your boat. I don't think you are wrong to buy into your team...I've watched a ton of NFL action since I first started going to games about 40 years ago. I've seen a lot of football in my day and I'm just not gonna confuse hamburger patties with steak.

take it easy, Im out

Haha, well I'm sorry for that. Being a fan of a team like the Texans keeps me on edge

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 01:06 AM
ok, have it your way. two road games this year. two losses. Viola - Same crap, different year. You gotta be able to beat good teams to be considered a good team. Is that so hard to understand?

What I'm finding so hard to understand, is that the Raiders have yet to beat a good team on the road. Unless you're saying we're a good team, but then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm not saying we're good. I'm saying the Raiders aren't either.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 01:08 AM
I agree completely. Say the Texans win the division this year-- how far are they going to get in the playoffs with Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson as CB2 & 3?

Watch the game again.. fast forward to all the defensive plays.. & focus on Kareem. He had a solid game. By week 11, he'll be ready for the play-offs with this defense.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 01:25 AM
Double post

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 07:05 AM
The Raiders haven't done ****....... yet. If they're going to do something, they're going to do something & we can talk about that, then.

The question, is what have they done this year?

Beat the Broncos? woohoo... we beat the coltless Mannings.
Beat the Jets? woohoo... we beat the Steelers
Beat the Browns? woohoo... we beat the Dolphins.
Beat the Texans? woohoo... we beat them three times this year.

Got smoked by the Pats? ... we got beat by the Ravens
Lost a close one to Buffalo?... we lost a close one to the Raiders.

What the heck is so different here that "Oakland" is a good team & the "Texans" are not?

First of all, I didn't say that Oakland was a good team and the Texans aren't, because I happen to think the Texans are good also.

Now for the "what have they done" part of your question.

The Raiders lost Jason Campbell, what did they do?
They went out and got Carson Palmer.

The Texans lost Andre Johnson, what did they do?
At first, nothing, then they got a washed up Derrick Mason and didn't pursue Brandon Lloyd.

The Raiders saw that LB Quentin Groves was playing poorly, so what did they do?
The Raiders went out and traded for Aaron Curry.

The Texans lost Mario Williams, what did they do?
So far they've stood pat with what they have.

The Raiders saw a weakness a Safety, so what did they do?
They picked up Chinedum Ndukwe.

The Texans are weak at CB, what did they do?
So far they've stood pat with what they have.

A couple years ago the Raiders saw a need at the DL, so what did they do?
They picked up John Henderson and traded for Richard Seymour (a trade they got roasted for much like the Palmer trade yesterday).

Anyway, my point is the Raiders aren't afraid to mix it up and go for the high-risk/high-reward player if they think that player can help them get to the next level. No, it doesn't always work out for them, i.e., Randy Moss, but at least they reach for the brass ring every once in a while.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 08:28 AM
First of all, I didn't say that Oakland was a good team and the Texans aren't, because I happen to think the Texans are good also.

My bad, got you mixed up with some of our other fans.

Now for the "what have they done" part of your question.

The Raiders lost Jason Campbell, what did they do?
They went out and got Carson Palmer.

The Texans lost Andre Johnson, what did they do?
At first, nothing, then they got a washed up Derrick Mason and didn't pursue Brandon Lloyd.

Two different situations. You lost Campbell for the year, Andre is only supposed to be out for a few games. Maybe they saw something in Brandon Lloyd they didn't like? Mason was brought in to replace David Anderson.

The Raiders saw that LB Quentin Groves was playing poorly, so what did they do?
The Raiders went out and traded for Aaron Curry.

The Texans lost Mario Williams, what did they do?
So far they've stood pat with what they have.

We've already got a 2nd round pick we drafted to take that spot. Not exactly staying pat, but staying the course. That is the position Reed was brought in to play.

The Raiders saw a weakness a Safety, so what did they do?
They picked up Chinedum Ndukwe.

The Texans are weak at CB, what did they do?
So far they've stood pat with what they have.

Again, staying the course. Kj is plan A & he's playing well & getting better. He wasn't benched like some want to believe, he was nursing a knee injury the first week. The second week he came dressed as an emergency reserve as Sherrick McMannis was also hurt.

Plan B is Brandon Harris & from what little bit I saw of him, he looks pretty good.

A couple years ago the Raiders saw a need at the DL, so what did they do?
They picked up John Henderson and traded for Richard Seymour (a trade they got roasted for much like the Palmer trade yesterday).

& we signed Suan Cody & drafted Earl Mitchell... you win this one.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 09:03 AM
sure they are. Is it because you are a Texan fan and have been brainwashed to think that being good is some kind of massive multi-year building project? They just need a QB. There is just not that much difference between the top teams and the middle of the road teams...many times it's just a QB.

The Raiders are currently sitting with a terribly ranked defense and most of their corners not named Stanford Routt have been either injured, or not good at all.

QB is not the only hole on that roster, it's just the only one getting filled this season and next offseason.

EDIT: And if the Raiders just have to have a QB out of the Bay Area why not try to draft Matt Barkley the next draft? Win Now is what got the Raiders into everything that happened after the '02 SB, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon.

Also, Hue Jackson apparently has full control over personnel.

EDIT2: And for the goofy raider fans saying "Oh we'd just blow the first rounder anyway lol jamarcus" isn't that something that should get front office personnel canned? Why would you trust these people to make even bigger decisions than who to pick in the first round of the draft, if they can't even do that properly?

b0ng
10-19-2011, 09:17 AM
Actually, I'm hearing that Palmer pared down his contract this year so the Raiders will only pay him $2.5M. Plus, he has been working out on the side with WRs and such, and is said to look good.

Personally, I think this trade keeps the Raiders relevant this year, whereas they were going to possibly tank without him.


The Raiders signed him to a 4 year $43 million dollar contract. That is silly money for a guy who has had probably the two worst injuries a QB could have (Elbow tendons, ACL tears) and has not even been an average or above average QB in more than a few years.

Oh yeah, and they basically mortgaged their future for the guy. Mortgaged their future when the QB class for this upcoming season looks absolutely spectacular.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 10:41 AM
The Raiders signed him to a 4 year $43 million dollar contract. That is silly money for a guy who has had probably the two worst injuries a QB could have (Elbow tendons, ACL tears) and has not even been an average or above average QB in more than a few years.

Oh yeah, and they basically mortgaged their future for the guy. Mortgaged their future when the QB class for this upcoming season looks absolutely spectacular.
they weren't taking a qb since they spent a pick next year on a qb already. I look at Terrelle Pryor as their future.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 10:50 AM
they weren't taking a qb since they spent a pick next year on a qb already. I look at Terrelle Pryor as their future.

Apparently they were taking a QB since they decided Carson Palmer for 2 high draft picks was the way to go after trading for Campbell and picking up Pryor in the supp draft.

The entire thing reeks of mismanagement and desperation.

EDIT: Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, and Landry Jones. Most likely one of those 3 would've been available no matter where the Raiders were picking in the first.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:16 AM
Apparently they were taking a QB since they decided Carson Palmer for 2 high draft picks was the way to go after trading for Campbell and picking up Pryor in the supp draft.

The entire thing reeks of mismanagement and desperation.

EDIT: Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, and Landry Jones. Most likely one of those 3 would've been available no matter where the Raiders were picking in the first.
when the Oilers drafted Steve McNair they went out and got Chris Chandler. Same type situation. Anyway, the Raiders have won in the past and I bet they win again before this sad sack franchise. I hate to say that but I dont have much confidence in the Texans ability to build a winning team.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 11:22 AM
when the Oilers drafted Steve McNair they went out and got Chris Chandler. Same type situation. Anyway, the Raiders have won in the past and I bet they win again before this sad sack franchise. I hate to say that but I dont have much confidence in the Texans ability to build a winning team.

Did they trade a 1st and a second which could turn into a first the year after for Chris Chandler? Everything I remember about that points me in the direction of "No, no they didn't" so I'm not sure why you bring it up since the situations aren't really congruent. Are you saying Terrelle Pryor is the next Steve McNair I don't get it.

The Raiders making silly moves doesn't really effect my opinion on the Texans though, so I guess. . . okay?

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:34 AM
Did they trade a 1st and a second which could turn into a first the year after for Chris Chandler? Everything I remember about that points me in the direction of "No, no they didn't" so I'm not sure why you bring it up since the situations aren't really congruent. Are you saying Terrelle Pryor is the next Steve McNair I don't get it.

The Raiders making silly moves doesn't really effect my opinion on the Texans though, so I guess. . . okay?
I'm just saying teams have taken young QB's and brought in vets to man the ship till they are ready. Texan fans making fun of the Raiders is kind of funny....this last decade the Raiders have 3 Div banners. Texans? 0 The Raiders just beat us to boot.

I'm not big on being a homer and I understand your groupthink on the Raiders. Its the easy way to fall in line with the common opinion.

Blake
10-19-2011, 11:37 AM
I'm just saying teams have taken young QB's and brought in vets to man the ship till they are ready. Texan fans making fun of the Raiders is kind of funny....this last decade the Raiders have 3 Div banners. Texans? 0 The Raiders just beat us to boot.

I'm not big on being a homer and I understand your groupthink on the Raiders. Its the easy way to fall in line with the common opinion.

Raiders didnt have to beat a Manning led Colts team for the past decade. Not refuting the other points in your post.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:40 AM
Raiders didnt have to beat a Manning led Colts team for the past decade. Not refuting the other points in your post.
no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 11:43 AM
I'm just saying teams have taken young QB's and brought in vets to man the ship till they are ready. Texan fans making fun of the Raiders is kind of funny....this last decade the Raiders have 3 Div banners. Texans? 0 The Raiders just beat us to boot.

I'm not big on being a homer and I understand your groupthink on the Raiders. Its the easy way to fall in line with the common opinion.

Keeping in mind that, how good the Texans are currently or in the past has little to nothing to do whether this trade was a good idea or not. If the Texans did a move like this for a guy like Carson Palmer I would be calling them idiots too homie.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:59 AM
Keeping in mind that, how good the Texans are currently or in the past has little to nothing to do whether this trade was a good idea or not. If the Texans did a move like this for a guy like Carson Palmer I would be calling them idiots too homie.We don't have a raw project qb and an injured Campbell. Looks like they want to win, now. I'm not sure what formula the Texans are using....cause we don't win.

perhaps one day.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 12:09 PM
We don't have a raw project qb and an injured Campbell. Looks like they want to win, now. I'm not sure what formula the Texans are using....cause we don't win.

perhaps one day.

If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 12:28 PM
If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.

The Patriots D is pretty suspect as well. Carson Palmer~ Tom Brady.... I know. But the Raiders have a lot of speed & talent at WR, a decent to very good OL & Darren McFadden.

This just might work. Over/Under, I'd take the over. Carson isn't too old to QB, McFadden, Murphy, Moore, Heyward-Bay..... they'll at least challenge for that division title for the next 4-5 years.

Heck if the Chargers don't fall apart.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 12:30 PM
If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.
Well, they just beat the Texans whom everyone presumes is a playoff team. They did that with crappy Campbell. Palmer is a huge upgrade.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 12:39 PM
Well, they just beat the Texans whom everyone presumes is a playoff team. They did that with crappy Campbell. Palmer is a huge upgrade.

While there are some who consider the Texans a playoff team, you can see that they did in fact lose to other "playoff" teams because their defense was bad (Buffalo, New England).

Palmer is definitely a huge upgrade to Jason Campbell, since Campbell isn't going to be taking any more snaps this year.

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 01:26 PM
The Raiders are currently sitting with a terribly ranked defense and most of their corners not named Stanford Routt have been either injured, or not good at all.

Not true, they have Chekwa and DVD, two young players that are starting to show they belong in the NFL. And though Chekwa is banged up, it isn't like he's not coming back to play.

QB is not the only hole on that roster, it's just the only one getting filled this season and next offseason.

The Raiders pretty much are set at all of their positions for years to come. The old men currently are Seymour, Henderson, Carlisle and Barnes. That's it.

EDIT: And if the Raiders just have to have a QB out of the Bay Area why not try to draft Matt Barkley the next draft? Win Now is what got the Raiders into everything that happened after the '02 SB, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon.

Also, Hue Jackson apparently has full control over personnel.

Hue, Mark, Amy, Tom and a couple others are involved in making personnel decisions, not just Hue.

EDIT2: And for the goofy raider fans saying "Oh we'd just blow the first rounder anyway lol jamarcus" isn't that something that should get front office personnel canned? Why would you trust these people to make even bigger decisions than who to pick in the first round of the draft, if they can't even do that properly?

JaMarcus was a concensus pick if you remember, it was a matter of should the Raiders go with Calvin Johnson or JaMarcus; who knew he was going to develop a codiene addiction? Now, I will say that two first-round picks for ANY team generally means one bust and one good player. No team I know of hits it with their 1st rounder every year.

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 01:28 PM
The Raiders signed him to a 4 year $43 million dollar contract. That is silly money for a guy who has had probably the two worst injuries a QB could have (Elbow tendons, ACL tears) and has not even been an average or above average QB in more than a few years.

Oh yeah, and they basically mortgaged their future for the guy. Mortgaged their future when the QB class for this upcoming season looks absolutely spectacular.

Throwing the ball around yesterday, the people in Oakland were looking at each other and saying "now that's a QB", or at least according to Al Saunders.

You don't like the trade, and that is fine because you aren't a Raider fan; however, the Raider fans generally love it because we know that Boller isn't the answer.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 01:32 PM
Not true, they have Chekwa and DVD, two young players that are starting to show they belong in the NFL. And though Chekwa is banged up, it isn't like he's not coming back to play.

Why are the Raiders giving up so many yards and points to opposing teams then? Who are your LB's besides McClain (Who isn't doing very well this season anyway)? Why is Chris Johnson always hurt and then when he's not hurt he's ineffective? The depth you guys have behind Huff and Branch is kind of bad, and it's hurt you guys in a few games already. Quinten Groves is a joke of an LB, and Kamerion Wimbley is not as explosive rushing the passer as he once was (Which is kind of silly since you guys play the 4-3, and he generally is a pass rush type guy).



The Raiders pretty much are set at all of their positions for years to come. The old men currently are Seymour, Henderson, Carlisle and Barnes. That's it.

If this is set, then you guys are ****ed for awhile. You need upgrades in the back portion of your defense including LB's, and lets not even get into what happens if people on your DL start crapping out.



Hue, Mark, Amy, Tom and a couple others are involved in making personnel decisions, not just Hue.

http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/32804869

There was little doubt that up until his death Al Davis was still running the Oakland Raiders. Every signing, every move, every thought process went through him. When he died, there were questions about who would run the team.

We now know for certain, according to sources inside the team and in the NFL, that Hue Jackson has complete control of all personnel decisons involving the Raiders.

Team executive Amy Trask is handling certain aspects of the team but, for now, Jackson is the guy making practically all of the football decisions for the Raiders on and off the field. I'm told that will continue for the imeediate future, probably through the season.

It's a stunning turn for the Raiders. A rookie head coach is now running the football operations of one of the most historic franchises in all of sports, replacing a legend.



JaMarcus was a concensus pick if you remember, it was a matter of should the Raiders go with Calvin Johnson or JaMarcus; who knew he was going to develop a codiene addiction? Now, I will say that two first-round picks for ANY team generally means one bust and one good player. No team I know of hits it with their 1st rounder every year.

Uh the Raiders were laughed at roundly for taking Jamarcus over Calvin Johnson. Jamarcus was a good prospect but there were so many questions about his work ethic and his love of the game that by the time draft day came around that year most pundits and NFL fans were saying that the Raiders would do the dumb thing and take Jamarcus, which they did, because apparently Al Davis never got over having Daryl Lamonica and was always looking for the next Bomber.

And the first round is not bust/hall of famer. There are plenty of solid players that are taken in the first round that fall into neither category, and now with how the rookie pay scale works, even if you do get a bust of a 1st rounder, it's not going to cripple your franchise.

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 01:37 PM
I'm just saying teams have taken young QB's and brought in vets to man the ship till they are ready. Texan fans making fun of the Raiders is kind of funny....this last decade the Raiders have 3 Div banners. Texans? 0 The Raiders just beat us to boot.

I'm not big on being a homer and I understand your groupthink on the Raiders. Its the easy way to fall in line with the common opinion.

Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a :koolaid: drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 01:43 PM
If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.

Huh? You are aware that statistics are for losers, right? I showed awhile back why the Raiders statistically weren't looking good, and that is because of the big play runs that skew their numbers. The important number to look at is not ypc given up or all that other crap, it is the wins and losses; they are 4-2 and that has a lot to do with their defense. They have the deepest DL in the NFL, and a bunch of young studs in the defensive backfield, including Tyvon Branch who many (Peter King for one) felt should have made the Pro-Bowl or All-Pro team (can't remember which, and there is a difference). So, just because you (b0ng) may not know the Raiders' defensive players, doesn't mean they are bad. Cincinnati supposedly has the best defense right now, can you name their players other than Rey M.?

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 02:09 PM
Why are the Raiders giving up so many yards and points to opposing teams then? Who are your LB's besides McClain (Who isn't doing very well this season anyway)? Why is Chris Johnson always hurt and then when he's not hurt he's ineffective? The depth you guys have behind Huff and Branch is kind of bad, and it's hurt you guys in a few games already. Quinten Groves is a joke of an LB, and Kamerion Wimbley is not as explosive rushing the passer as he once was (Which is kind of silly since you guys play the 4-3, and he generally is a pass rush type guy).

If this is set, then you guys are ****ed for awhile. You need upgrades in the back portion of your defense including LB's, and lets not even get into what happens if people on your DL start crapping out.

Wow, that is a lot to cover in one response, but I'll try. The LBs for the Raiders are Aaron Curry, Rolando McClain, and Kamerion Wimbley. Curry played quite well last week, thank you very much. McClain is playing just fine, but he does seem to be thinking more in Bresnanhan's defense than reacting, but that may be a matter of him getting accustomed to the scheme. As for Wimbley, he didn't pan out for the Bengals like they wanted and the Raiders got him before last season when he posted 9 sacks for them. LBs are fine, other than Ricky Brown was IR'ed, but he was a back-up and a ST player.

http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/32804869

Fine if you want to listen to a mediot. If you would rather hear it from the "horse's mouth" take a listen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_xW2VVBD8&feature=player_embedded

Uh the Raiders were laughed at roundly for taking Jamarcus over Calvin Johnson. Jamarcus was a good prospect but there were so many questions about his work ethic and his love of the game that by the time draft day came around that year most pundits and NFL fans were saying that the Raiders would do the dumb thing and take Jamarcus, which they did, because apparently Al Davis never got over having Daryl Lamonica and was always looking for the next Bomber.

John Clayton of ESPN stated that Russell's workouts at the 2007 NFL Combine that Russell's arm strength and size impressed several teams, and predicted that it would "be hard to pass up on Russell at #1."

Or you can listen to what Kiper had to say, the youtube video includes Berman talking about Russell, Carr, Palmer, Vick, etc.:

Jamarcus Russell’s gonna immediately energize that Raider Nation, that fanbase, that football team- on the practice field, in that locker room- three years from now you could be looking at a guy that’s certainly one of the elite top five quarterbacks in this league.

You’re talking about a 2-3 year period once he’s under center. Look out because skill level that he has is certainly John Elway like. . . . http://youbeenblinded.com/revisiting-mel-kipers-jamarcus-russell-prediction/5489

I guess the Raiders could have taken Brady Quinn instead, huh! :lol:

And the first round is not bust/hall of famer. There are plenty of solid players that are taken in the first round that fall into neither category, and now with how the rookie pay scale works, even if you do get a bust of a 1st rounder, it's not going to cripple your franchise.

Didn't say it was HOFer or bust, but that half tend to be busts or certainly don't live up to expectations. So once again, I'd rather have a bird in hand than two in the bush.

Dutchrudder
10-19-2011, 02:17 PM
Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a :koolaid: drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

You really need to cut out this 'playing the victim' crap. The Raiders have been lambasted for some of their moves over the last decade, but the Falcons were not universally lauded for trading a bunch of picks to get JJones. Here's a post from one of our guys talking about it and others in the thread concurred:

I disagree. I hear they wanted Green more and tried to move up to 4 but missed out with the Bengals. I think the Falcons are gambling big time with their future. And if they were 1 or 2 players away from the SB they wouldnt have been run out of their own building by the Packers.

Bottom line is they were desperate and desperate people do crazy stuff. Jones is not the 6th best player in my book and the ransom they paid was ludicrous.

Personally, I'm happy the Falcons did that trade because the Browns got the best deal possible (my secondary team is the Browns). They are rebuilding, and need more picks to help fill in the gaps. I don't think it was a smart trade by the Falcons at all, but it's not nearly as stupid as this trade for Palmer is. He's 32 and was mediocre in his prime. He's not getting any better.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 02:32 PM
Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a :koolaid: drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

I have blasted that trade on here or elsewhere. Why would you want to blow that much of your load on what isn't even the top WR in a draft class. I thought that Atlanta's problems didn't stem from needing a player to catch passes from Ryan. They paid waaaay too much and identified a part of their team that wasn't the biggest need. Much like what I think about this trade.

I think the only way this trade could be a success is if the Raiders end up not minding giving up a first rounder in 2013 and Palmer collects the $43m from his contract.

Mr teX
10-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a :koolaid: drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

Well lets look at this shall we...

The Falcons....

J. Jones...another #1 caliber option opposite a bonafide #1 in White....oh yeah, you've got arguably the GOAT at TE controlling the middle. Solid, accurate qb throwing the ball. Just an all around great fit for ATL & Jones no matter how you slice it.

#2, The falcons truly are only 1-2 players away having gone 13-3 just last year.


The raiders...

Gave away 2 of your most valuable picks for a guy who's been mediocore at best his last 3 seasons....always hurt...... who'll be what 32 this year....& who quit on his previous team & likely won't be ready to contribute for at least a few weeks....So you're gonna have to hope Boller doesn't throw away a couple. If you guys miss on this (very high probability)....they'll be no recovering for at least 2 years b/c you have zero to offer from a talent perspective or draft picks. which reminds me....

you dropped a 3rd for another Qb in Terrelle Pryor just this past year.


Your main guy Mcfadden hasn't really been able to stay healthy throughout this career & your WR's are pretty much unproven & your defense isn't that great.

Definitely not 1-2 players away.

The franchise is also in flux to boot.

so, that's why the falcons move is looked at as brilliant & you guys' was looked at as stupid.

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 03:04 PM
Well lets look at this shall we...

The Falcons....

J. Jones...another #1 caliber option opposite a bonafide #1 in White....oh yeah, you've got arguably the GOAT at TE controlling the middle. Solid, accurate qb throwing the ball. Just an all around great fit for ATL & Jones no matter how you slice it.

#2, The falcons truly are only 1-2 players away having gone 13-3 just last year.


The raiders...

Gave away 2 of your most valuable picks for a guy who's been mediocore at best his last 3 seasons....always hurt...... who'll be what 32 this year....& who quit on his previous team & likely won't be ready to contribute for at least a few weeks....So you're gonna have to hope Boller doesn't throw away a couple. If you guys miss on this (very high probability)....they'll be no recovering for at least 2 years b/c you have zero to offer from a talent perspective or draft picks. which reminds me....

you dropped a 3rd for another Qb in Terrelle Pryor just this past year.


Your main guy Mcfadden hasn't really been able to stay healthy throughout this career & your WR's are pretty much unproven & your defense isn't that great.

Definitely not 1-2 players away.

The franchise is also in flux to boot.

so, that's why the falcons move is looked at as brilliant & you guys' was looked at as stupid.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Cerberus
10-19-2011, 03:27 PM
You really need to cut out this 'playing the victim' crap. The Raiders have been lambasted for some of their moves over the last decade, but the Falcons were not universally lauded for trading a bunch of picks to get JJones.

Victim? Who's playing the victim? I just stated that many thought the Falcon trade was great, but when compared to the Raider trade that was deemed awful it doesn't make sense.

BTW, DL Tommy Kelly stated that Carson Palmer doesn't look rusty to him, and that the ball is coming out quickly.

VittorioTafur Vittorio Tafur
Tommy Kelly: "(Palmer) didn't look rusty to me. Ball was getting out of there pretty quick."

And Rich Gannon on the trade:

VittorioTafur Vittorio Tafur
Rich Gannon on Palmer: "He's 31. I was 34 when I first rolled out to Oakland in 1999 ... I think he's got a lot of good football left in him

I think barring injury, the Raiders have a QB for the next 5-6 years and that Darren McFadden will help Palmer and vice-versa.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 03:43 PM
And Rich Gannon on the trade:



Gigantic difference between Rich Gannon 1999 and Carson Palmer 2011: Raiders didn't give up a 1st and another 2nd that can turn into a first in the proceeding drafts to get Gannon, he was a FA. If Gannon had flamed out in Oakland it would've been bad, but not team cripplingly so. There is way more pressure on Palmer to succeed right now and I hope that he does that, but until he does, this is going to look like a really bad and desperate maneuver by Oakland.

BTW: Palmer is starting against the Chiefs this Sunday. If it hasn't been noted in this thread yet.

Dutchrudder
10-19-2011, 04:05 PM
Victim? Who's playing the victim? I just stated that many thought the Falcon trade was great, but when compared to the Raider trade that was deemed awful it doesn't make sense.

Acting like every transaction made by the Raiders in the last decade is considered wrong by the sports world simply because the Raiders made the move, is playing the victim's role. You've made two incorrect statements in this thread about the sports world's reaction to the Curry trade and now Julio Jones. I don't think anyone is claiming this is a bad trade simply because the Raiders did it, it's because nobody believe Palmer is worth more than a single 2nd at most. The context of it is just humorous given the incredibly silly moves they have made over the years like drafting DHB 7th, and that no-name safety in the second after that because they had good 40 times. It's crazy.


BTW, DL Tommy Kelly stated that Carson Palmer doesn't look rusty to him, and that the ball is coming out quickly.



And Rich Gannon on the trade:



I think barring injury, the Raiders have a QB for the next 5-6 years and that Darren McFadden will help Palmer and vice-versa.

It's possible it can work out, but I doubt he will end up being worth it. As I said earlier, if they don't make the AFC Championship sometime in the next 2-3 years (with Palmer at QB), this will be a massive failure. You don't throw 1sts around for nothing. The Bears did something similar with Cutler, but it actually looks like it's working out. The difference being that Cutler was 1 year removed from a great season and was very young and rather cheap at the time.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 04:23 PM
http://i.imgur.com/zYK5M.jpg

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 07:59 AM
Gigantic difference between Rich Gannon 1999 and Carson Palmer 2011: Raiders didn't give up a 1st and another 2nd that can turn into a first in the proceeding drafts to get Gannon, he was a FA. If Gannon had flamed out in Oakland it would've been bad, but not team cripplingly so. There is way more pressure on Palmer to succeed right now and I hope that he does that, but until he does, this is going to look like a really bad and desperate maneuver by Oakland.

BTW: Palmer is starting against the Chiefs this Sunday. If it hasn't been noted in this thread yet.

A few things. First, the board says there are 7 pages in this string but won't open up the 7th page, so I'm hoping this thread pops up on that page to get rid of the glitch. After all, discussing Raider football with Texan fans is pretty fruitless when it comes down to it.

Second, with regard to Palmer starting against the Chiefs, that is a big "maybe". Those are the reports, but if you listen to the players they are all saying how hard that would be to come in and learn the nomenclature and get the timing down in such a short period of time. Personally, I'd like to see Jackson give Palmer this week (against the Chiefs) and next week (bye) off so he can get the playbook down and build a rapport with his receivers.

Next, with regard to the Raiders appearing desperate to some as opposed to looking for the best replacement available, I give you the people whose job it is to know what is what. No, not the mediots or talking-heads, but those that actually get paid to be correct about football: the vegas odds-makers! So, what do they think of the Palmer acquisition? Well, they apparently like Palmer more than Boller or even a healthy Campbell, because with the acquisition of Palmer the Raiders odds of winning the SB went from 40:1 down to 30:1. And remember, it was only a couple years ago that Palmer was ranked the #3 QB in the NFL behind Manning and Brady!

Now on to see if page 7 pops up . . .

steelbtexan
10-20-2011, 08:23 AM
Currently a 5th and a 6th.

And conditional supplemental 3rds for ASo/Gallery.

Losing a 1st and a conditional 1st hurts. But if they win in the playoffs it's worth it. If not it isn't. There's no garuntee that they will hit on their 1st rd picks. (JaBust)

They're taking a risk. I like teams that take calculated risks. Some people aren't risk takers, I understand that.

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 09:29 AM
And conditional supplemental 3rds for ASo/Gallery.

Losing a 1st and a conditional 1st hurts. But if they win in the playoffs it's worth it. If not it isn't. There's no garuntee that they will hit on their 1st rd picks. (JaBust)

They're taking a risk. I like teams that take calculated risks. Some people aren't risk takers, I understand that.

Yep, it is always exciting being a Raider fan; even during the off-season at times. One of the things I love about the Raiders is that they aren't afraid to take chances. They took chances on Plunkett, Matuszak, Alzado, Gannon, Hendricks, Bubba Smith, and others. Sure, sometimes it doesn't work out, like with Larry Brown, MeAngelo Hall, Javon Walker and others, but at least they aren't afraid to make a move to try and improve the team. That was one thing most Raider fans loved about Al Davis, no matter what the outcome was of one of his moves, you at least knew he was trying to improve the team.

With regard to the Raiders' draft for 2012, it now looks like this:

1st - QB Carson Palmer (plus another pick next year)

2nd - OT Joseph Barksdale

3rd - QB Terrell Pryor

4th - QB Jason Campbell

5th - ????

6th - ????

7th - LB Aaron Curry

Then there should be a 3rd round compensatory pick for Aso, and who knows what the Raiders will get for losing former 1st round pick Robert Gallery and TE Zach Miller.

And considering the team if full of young talent from recent drafts, as one KC Chief mediot pointed out, the Raiders could afford to make the move.

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 09:38 AM
And conditional supplemental 3rds for ASo/Gallery.

Losing a 1st and a conditional 1st hurts. But if they win in the playoffs it's worth it. If not it isn't. There's no garuntee that they will hit on their 1st rd picks. (JaBust)

They're taking a risk. I like teams that take calculated risks. Some people aren't risk takers, I understand that.

Is Jamarcus the only QB bust in Oakland? Who has held that position over the last decade? Who made the decision to go with those guys? Who made the decision to go with Palmer?

I personally don't like the trade. I think it is very risky, with great upset, but a downside that can really hurt the franchise for years to come. They've already been swimming in irrelevance for the better part of a decade.

I think the chances are good for this to be a win for the Raiders. If that line can protect Palmer like they protected Cambell over the first 4 games of the season. But they failed against our pass rush, they failed against Clevland. Only 4 teams in their next 10 opponents have a better pass rush than the Browns (The Texans are currently third in sacks) so their chances are pretty good, plus if Palmer is sharp he can probably help in that department.

But the drop off from Boller to Campbell, IMO doesn't justify this move. & if Pryor is their future, you could start that transition later this year if Boller didn't pan out, plus address team needs in the upcoming draft(s).

Blake
10-20-2011, 10:07 AM
no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.

Talk to me at the end of the season when we have complete regular season records.

I am not trying to make you think a certain way. Just expressing my view of things. Manning and Brady are touted as 2 of the best QB's in the history of the game, and you want to discount one of them being in our division as an excuse...

steelbtexan
10-20-2011, 10:56 AM
The Raiders haven't done ****....... yet. If they're going to do something, they're going to do something & we can talk about that, then.

The question, is what have they done this year?

Beat the Broncos? woohoo... we beat the coltless Mannings.
Beat the Jets? woohoo... we beat the Steelers
Beat the Browns? woohoo... we beat the Dolphins.
Beat the Texans? woohoo... we beat them three times this year.

Got smoked by the Pats? ... we got beat by the Ravens
Lost a close one to Buffalo?... we lost a close one to the Raiders.

What the heck is so different here that "Oakland" is a good team & the "Texans" are not?

The difference is they have a proactive HC. Who makes moves trying to better his team.

The Texans have a GM/HC that dont make moves to try to better the Team. (See Lloyd) Dont give me Mason, he's basically Walter at this point in his career.

Mr teX
10-20-2011, 11:11 AM
The difference is they have a proactive HC. Who makes moves trying to better his team.

The Texans have a GM/HC that dont make moves to try to better the Team. (See Lloyd) Dont give me Mason, he's basically Walter at this point in his career.

Get outta here with this nonsense. Had the texans made this deal you'd be screaming from the rooftops about how awful it was & railroading the texans FO even more than you already do.....yet b/c it was a blockbuster move from a different organization you're willing to overlook its stupidity & give them credit...you are unbelievable.

Vinny
10-20-2011, 11:13 AM
Raiders didnt have to beat a Manning led Colts team for the past decade. Not refuting the other points in your post.
no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.Talk to me at the end of the season when we have complete regular season records.

I am not trying to make you think a certain way. Just expressing my view of things. Manning and Brady are touted as 2 of the best QB's in the history of the game, and you want to discount one of them being in our division as an excuse...
They are excuses. Good organizations can lose great players and still win games. When Brady went down a few years ago did the Patriots fall apart? No they didn't. They are a good team. Do they always win the Super Bowl just because they have "Tom Terriffic"? No, good teams find a way to beat them. If you don't produce, you rationalize. All these excuses are rationalizations. Dan Marino was the greatest QB of his era, but he never won a Super Bowl. Because good teams always stopped him. If you build a good enough team, you don't need friggin' excuses.

Blake
10-20-2011, 12:38 PM
no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.
They are excuses. Good organizations can lose great players and still win games. When Brady went down a few years ago did the Patriots fall apart? No they didn't. They are a good team. Do they always win the Super Bowl just because they have "Tom Terriffic"? No, good teams find a way to beat them. If you don't produce, you rationalize. All these excuses are rationalizations. Dan Marino was the greatest QB of his era, but he never won a Super Bowl. Because good teams always stopped him. If you build a good enough team, you don't need friggin' excuses.


:ok:

So I guess we can mark down the Colts as a bad organization. Obviously they cant lose great players and still win games. And when Caldwell reflects on his job as a HC I dont want to hear any "I was missing Payton Manning" excuses. Because you made that quite apparent that those are excuses.

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 01:07 PM
I personally don't like the trade. I think it is very risky, with great upset, but a downside that can really hurt the franchise for years to come. They've already been swimming in irrelevance for the better part of a decade.

Luckily, you being a Texan fan means it is a moot point whether you like the trade or not; most Raider fans love it. And yes, it is a big-reward/big-risk proposition, but you know that Hue did his homework on Palmer's health and such. If Palmer can get close to being the #3 QB in the League again, like top 10, then this trade is as Dick Vitale put it "a home-run". Just thought it was funny that a basketball announcer would use baseball vernacular to describe the Raiders' football move. Anyway . . .

But the drop off from Boller to Campbell, IMO doesn't justify this move. & if Pryor is their future, you could start that transition later this year if Boller didn't pan out, plus address team needs in the upcoming draft(s).

Hue it trying to win THIS year and not down the road. And yes, the drop off from Campbell to Boller was certainly noticeable; however, the upswing from Campbell to Palmer should also be very noticeable if things work out right. This trade could very well put the Raiders back on the map for the next few years if not longer!

As for addressing team needs in the upcoming draft, they don't really have many spots open or coming open from retiring players. They are a young team, and there are plenty of young up-and-coming players on the roster. Could they use an upgrade here-or-there? Certainly, every team could, but it isn't like most teams have a bunch of pro-bowl players filling every position anyway, so that isn't a major concern. Besides, their last few drafts have been very solid and there is always FA. The draft is not the only way to build a team, although the Raiders have used it lately to lay the foundation for their team, which is currently on the rise. :dance2:

As for Pryor, maybe he is the back-up plan in case Palmer doesn't work out. If Palmer does work out, maybe the Raider trade him to Houston (since so many here apparently hate Schaub) for their 1st rounder in 2013 and conditional 2nd or 1st in 2014! :neener:

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 01:13 PM
... but you know that Hue did his homework on Palmer's health and such.

Which leads to questions of tampering again.

If Palmer does work out, maybe the Raider trade him to Houston (since so many here apparently hate Schaub) for their 1st rounder in 2013 and conditional 2nd or 1st in 2014! :neener:

Man I wish they had put Jerrod Johnson on the Practice Squad.

Dutchrudder
10-20-2011, 01:41 PM
Cerb, what are year/stats are you looking at that place Carson Palmer as the #3 QB?


As for Pryor, maybe he is the back-up plan in case Palmer doesn't work out. If Palmer does work out, maybe the Raider trade him to Houston (since so many here apparently hate Schaub) for their 1st rounder in 2013 and conditional 2nd or 1st in 2014!

I know you're joking with this, but everyone in this town would riot on Kirby if that happened. Palmer at least has NFL experience and will probably be decent.

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 04:36 PM
Cerb, what are year/stats are you looking at that place Carson Palmer as the #3 QB?

That's a good question. I believe, as embarrassing as it is, that it is something that Chris Berman said during the draft when JaBustus Russell was selected. I could be wrong, but I think he was the #3 QB in the NFL back then. I also know that one of my Raider brethren posted a stat about Palmer, Brady and Manning being the only three QBs to ever have a 100+ QB rating in 9 games straight, or something like that.

I know you're joking with this, but everyone in this town would riot on Kirby if that happened. Palmer at least has NFL experience and will probably be decent.

Yes, it was a joke. Seriously though, I don't know why so many people here bust on Schaub, because he really isn't a bad QB. Then again, once you've had JaBustus Russell on your team any QB looks good. For example, my family consists of a bunch of Redskin fans (I was born and raised in the D.C. area - Fairfax) and they ribbed me about the Raiders getting Campbell. As I explained to them, Campbell was 100x the QB Russell ever was in the NFL, so I liked him. So, I guess once someone has had a steady diet of crap-sandwiches, you don't need a roast beef sandwich to make you happy, a PBJ sandwich will suffice.

Someone asked about Jarrod Johnson, and if memory serves me correctly he was the QB from A&M that didn't get drafted, but was drafted by the CFL. Although, in the end I want to say he ended up on the Eagles roster, or some team like that, but it wasn't the Raiders.

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 04:45 PM
BTW, what a great guy:

http://www.raiders.com/media-vault/videos/Coach-Jackson-10-20-11/aefdd688-9ce9-4532-8568-0ed89fff6fca

Dutchrudder
10-20-2011, 04:50 PM
That's a good question. I believe, as embarrassing as it is, that it is something that Chris Berman said during the draft when JaBustus Russell was selected. I could be wrong, but I think he was the #3 QB in the NFL back then. I also know that one of my Raider brethren posted a stat about Palmer, Brady and Manning being the only three QBs to ever have a 100+ QB rating in 9 games straight, or something like that.

Ok, so claiming And remember, it was only a couple years ago that Palmer was ranked the #3 QB in the NFL behind Manning and Brady! is complete BS then?


Yes, it was a joke. Seriously though, I don't know why so many people here bust on Schaub, because he really isn't a bad QB. Then again, once you've had JaBustus Russell on your team any QB looks good. For example, my family consists of a bunch of Redskin fans (I was born and raised in the D.C. area - Fairfax) and they ribbed me about the Raiders getting Campbell. As I explained to them, Campbell was 100x the QB Russell ever was in the NFL, so I liked him. So, I guess once someone has had a steady diet of crap-sandwiches, you don't need a roast beef sandwich to make you happy, a PBJ sandwich will suffice.

Lemme put it this way, when the Raiders got Jason Campbell for a 4th, I thought that was a decent trade for both teams. Raiders could give JC a new chance at QB and the Redskins got something out of it too. Palmer strikes me as being the same boat. A guy that didn't produce much with his former team the last couple years, and needs a change of scenery. If the Raiders got him for a 3rd or anything less than that, I wouldn't mock this trade at all. A 1st and 2nd (cause they aren't getting to the AFCC with him) is overpaying in draft picks, and if his contract isn't restructured, then they are overpaying him in $$ too.


Someone asked about Jarrod Johnson, and if memory serves me correctly he was the QB from A&M that didn't get drafted, but was drafted by the CFL. Although, in the end I want to say he ended up on the Eagles roster, or some team like that, but it wasn't the Raiders.

Johnson didn't really pan out in the NFL. He was on the preseason roster with the Eagles after being drafted #1 overall in the UFL draft. I think he's bounced back and forth between them a couple times now. I really don't think he will be any better than Pryor at this point, nor was he all that great in college anyways. Difference is, if you got him, you wouldn't be paying anything. As I said before though, there were cheaper options on the table that could probably give the same results.

In any case, feel free to necro this thread in January if the Raiders do make the AFCC. Laugh and gloat at me, Bong and whoever if it happens. Statistically you have about a 1 in 15 chance of making it. 1 in 10 if you consider the teams that are out of the playoff race.

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 04:55 PM
Johnson didn't really pan out in the NFL. He was on the preseason roster with the Eagles after being drafted #1 overall in the UFL draft. I think he's bounced back and forth between them a couple times now. I really don't think he will be any better than Pryor at this point, nor was he all that great in college anyways. Difference is, if you got him, you wouldn't be paying anything. As I said before though, there were cheaper options on the table that could probably give the same results.


Johnson's name came up because we worked him out last week I think. It's in the "Texans working out 4 TE" thread.. click the arrow next to Vinny's name.
From what I could find, the players we worked out are: Richard Quinn, Charles Davis, Wes Lyons, Gijon Robins, QB Jerrod Johnson and WR Wes Lyons

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 05:10 PM
Ok, so claiming is complete BS then?

Not really. I was just restating something I heard or read elsewhere. Problem is, I can look up statistics on a yearly basis, but I don't have a reference to look up players over a span from X-year to Y-year. So, maybe from 2006-2009 he was, or maybe not. At any rate, I'm not going to get all caught up in that, as it is his play on the field and not in the record books that I'm interested in.



Lemme put it this way, when the Raiders got Jason Campbell for a 4th, I thought that was a decent trade for both teams. Raiders could give JC a new chance at QB and the Redskins got something out of it too. Palmer strikes me as being the same boat. A guy that didn't produce much with his former team the last couple years, and needs a change of scenery. If the Raiders got him for a 3rd or anything less than that, I wouldn't mock this trade at all. A 1st and 2nd (cause they aren't getting to the AFCC with him) is overpaying in draft picks, and if his contract isn't restructured, then they are overpaying him in $$ too.

We'll see. However, after all the 10+ loss seasons that followed the SB loss, most Raider fans are glad to have Carson, because it gives the Raiders a legitimate chance at winning in our minds. What kind of price do you put on winning versus losing? When you look at it that way, the 2 picks aren't that high of a price. It is only if the Raiders slide back to mediocrity or worse does it become a bad deal.

Johnson didn't really pan out in the NFL. He was on the preseason roster with the Eagles after being drafted #1 overall in the UFL draft. I think he's bounced back and forth between them a couple times now. I really don't think he will be any better than Pryor at this point, nor was he all that great in college anyways. Difference is, if you got him, you wouldn't be paying anything. As I said before though, there were cheaper options on the table that could probably give the same results.

That may be stretching it a bit. Thanks for the update on Johnson though, I was hoping he would do well where ever he landed. Oh well.

In any case, feel free to necro this thread in January if the Raiders do make the AFCC. Laugh and gloat at me, Bong and whoever if it happens. Statistically you have about a 1 in 15 chance of making it. 1 in 10 if you consider the teams that are out of the playoff race.

You set the bar a the AFC Championship Game, not me. I'd be happy for now if Carson just led the Raiders to the playoffs. We'll talk about Championships next year or the year after. One step at a time, one step at a time, though a SB would be GREAT (insert Tony the Tiger animation)!

Dutchrudder
10-20-2011, 05:27 PM
You set the bar a the AFC Championship Game, not me. I'd be happy for now if Carson just led the Raiders to the playoffs. We'll talk about Championships next year or the year after. One step at a time, one step at a time, though a SB would be GREAT (insert Tony the Tiger animation)!

Speculation is that the conditional 2013 pick is based on making the AFCC game. So that's why I set the bar there. Given the state of their division, making the playoffs shouldn't be that difficult. SD's 4 opponents that they have beaten have a combined 5 wins among them. That's not saying a lot for them yet. In fact, if the Raiders don't win their division this year, it would be an outright failure.

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 07:04 PM
Speculation is that the conditional 2013 pick is based on making the AFCC game. So that's why I set the bar there. Given the state of their division, making the playoffs shouldn't be that difficult. SD's 4 opponents that they have beaten have a combined 5 wins among them. That's not saying a lot for them yet. In fact, if the Raiders don't win their division this year, it would be an outright failure.

Well then tell me, if the Raiders went 8-8 last year after 7 straight years of double-digit losses, and you now believe anything less than winning their division is a failure, what do you think of the Texans? I mean they went 8-8, 8-8, 9-7 & 6-10, before this season, and they didn't have a HC change like the Raiders, nor did they lose their owner/GM, and certainly don't have a new QB. So, how is it that the Raiders are supposed to overcome all of these obstacles to avoid being a failure in Dutchrudder's eyes? And what does that make the Texans in your eyes? And no, it is not a fact that it would be a failure, that is an opinion.

FWIW, I don't know how old you are, but as I've grown older I have become less impatient with regard to football. I've also noticed that most of the posters here that think the Raiders did well happen to be over 40 if not pushing 50 and older, whereas those under 40 tend to think the Raiders screwed-up.

Cerberus
10-20-2011, 08:12 PM
The trade that sent quarterback Carson Palmer from Cincinnati to Oakland has been widely touted as a "steal" for the Bengals. The reality is that it is also a great deal for the Raiders.

Oakland has a premiere running back in Darren McFadden and talented young wide receivers. With an experienced winning quarterback, their offense could be explosive.

I have been representing NFL players since 1975 and have had 60 first round draft picks as clients and eight players selected first overall. Quarterback drafting is risky. . . just look at the first round of the 1999 Draft. Where are first-rounders Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper and Cade McNown, who should all be in their prime? And if you recall, Ryan Leaf was picked No. 2 overall.

The care and breeding of young quarterbacks is excruciatingly difficult and how many draft picks does it take to insure a franchise quarterback? The other first and second round picks carry the chance of not fulfilling their potential. (Sound familiar?)

Carson was the first pick of the 2002 draft and got the benefit of sitting and learning for a couple of years. From 2004 until 2007, he was among the NFL's statistical elite, with a quarterback rating of 90.1 and a completion percentage of 64.1. His TD to INT ratio was 104-63 during that time span.

Palmer is healthy, seasoned and will have multiple motivations to prove his worth again. I predict he will be very successful. The Raiders made a great deal! . . . Leigh Steinberg

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-Palmer-trade-wasnt-just-a-steal-for-the-Bengals.html

I know, it sounds like one of my posts which Dutchrudder, b0ng, and a couple others totally disagreed with. So, I figured if they don't believe me, maybe they would believe Leigh Steinberg. Then again, probably not, because they obviously have already made up their minds on the matter. Still, I think it is great that Leigh Steinberg has just made the same points that I have been making and defending here.

Thanks Leigh! :clap:

Dutchrudder
10-21-2011, 12:54 PM
Well then tell me, if the Raiders went 8-8 last year after 7 straight years of double-digit losses, and you now believe anything less than winning their division is a failure, what do you think of the Texans? I mean they went 8-8, 8-8, 9-7 & 6-10, before this season, and they didn't have a HC change like the Raiders, nor did they lose their owner/GM, and certainly don't have a new QB. So, how is it that the Raiders are supposed to overcome all of these obstacles to avoid being a failure in Dutchrudder's eyes? And what does that make the Texans in your eyes? And no, it is not a fact that it would be a failure, that is an opinion.

FWIW, I don't know how old you are, but as I've grown older I have become less impatient with regard to football. I've also noticed that most of the posters here that think the Raiders did well happen to be over 40 if not pushing 50 and older, whereas those under 40 tend to think the Raiders screwed-up.

Lol, typical Cerb. We're talking about the Raiders here, and somewhat the Bengals and you go off on a tangent about the Texans. My feelings towards this trade have absolutely nothing to do with the Texans. I'm going off my evaluation of what I have seen Palmer do in the last couple years and looking at where I think he stands within the NFL. He's a mediocre QB with mediocre stats since he came back from injury. If the Raiders gave up a 3rd or less for him, I wouldn't blame them at all. A 1st and 2nd is too much, but given the Raiders draft history, I guess it's about the same value as a good team's 3rd.

I know I started that last sentence with 'in fact', but since I was the the one posting I thought that was clear it was my opinion and not a fact of life. In any case, it was meant to contrast with my previous thought that they would need to get to the AFCC to make this trade worth it. At this point, winning the division would seem rather easy for them at this point and thus a low hurdle to jump.

Here's the deal though, the expectation is to get to the playoffs and potentially the AFCC given the parameters of the deal. If they don't meet at least the former goal, then I consider the trade a failure. Me. Nobody else from the 'mediots' as you call them, just me. If you want to have a conversation with those 'mediots' that you seem to despise, go email them. I don't write for ESPN or the Oakland Daily Bugle or even the lowly Bleacher Report. Find your favorite one who's all giddy about the deal and feel free to fellate him with your e-praise. I'm sure if you shower them with love and adoration that you will do your part to ensure that Palmer isn't a failure.

Dutchrudder
10-21-2011, 01:07 PM
. . . Leigh Steinberg

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-Palmer-trade-wasnt-just-a-steal-for-the-Bengals.html

I know, it sounds like one of my posts which Dutchrudder, b0ng, and a couple others totally disagreed with. So, I figured if they don't believe me, maybe they would believe Leigh Steinberg. Then again, probably not, because they obviously have already made up their minds on the matter. Still, I think it is great that Leigh Steinberg has just made the same points that I have been making and defending here.

Thanks Leigh! :clap:

Really? You want to play the "This 'expert' said THIS game"? There are tons of sportswriters out there, and plenty will come down on either side of this trade. Do you think there is no one out there that could possibly counter the idea that this is a good trade? I really could care less.

Bong and I, like many others, make our evaluations based on what we have seen and how we value picks vs players. The only person I'll 'believe' on the matter of Palmers worth is Palmer himself as he shows it on the field. That's why I'm leaving this open-ended. Bring this thread up in January and we'll see how he does. For now, I'm firmly in the 'Bengals ransacked the Raiders with this trade' camp.

Vinny
10-21-2011, 01:15 PM
Really? You want to play the "This 'expert' said THIS game"? There are tons of sportswriters out there, and plenty will come down on either side of this trade. Do you think there is no one out there that could possibly counter the idea that this is a good trade? I really could care less.

Bong and I, like many others, make our evaluations based on what we have seen and how we value picks vs players. The only person I'll 'believe' on the matter of Palmers worth is Palmer himself as he shows it on the field. That's why I'm leaving this open-ended. Bring this thread up in January and we'll see how he does. For now, I'm firmly in the 'Bengals ransacked the Raiders with this trade' camp.many people feel that Palmer had idiots for wr's his last years of the Bengals. Guys who wouldn't run their routes right, not hustle when the qb was in trouble, not run hard when they weren't the primary read. If you think it was Palmers problem and his alone, then those guys tend to be down on the trade. If you thought ochostinko and TO were part of the problem, you may not see this as a bad trade.

Dutchrudder
10-21-2011, 02:01 PM
many people feel that Palmer had idiots for wr's his last years of the Bengals. Guys who wouldn't run their routes right, not hustle when the qb was in trouble, not run hard when they weren't the primary read. If you think it was Palmers problem and his alone, then those guys tend to be down on the trade. If you thought ochostinko and TO were part of the problem, you may not see this as a bad trade.

I don't think Cerberus has even brought that up, but it may be part of the reason Palmer hasn't looked good since his last injury. The thing is, Andy Dalton is looking just as good this season. So I dunno, the addition of Green, Dalton and loss of Palmer, TO & Ocho don't seem to be hurting the Bengals all that much. They actually look better, but that may be more due to the defense improving. I dunno, but the last few years, the Bengals always looked like **** under Palmer, so that's what I'm going on.

Cerberus
10-21-2011, 04:37 PM
Once again, let me re-state that it appears those of us who are 40+ tend to think this trade wasn't a bad deal. The younger "instant gratification" generation tends to think it was a bad deal because it didn't come with a Lombardi attached. So, I'm willing to give Carson Palmer time to become acclimated with his new team and don't feel that the 2012 AFCC game is the deciding factor as to the final status of the trade.

Here's the deal though, the expectation is to get to the playoffs and potentially the AFCC given the parameters of the deal. If they don't meet at least the former goal, then I consider the trade a failure. Me. Nobody else from the 'mediots' as you call them, just me. If you want to have a conversation with those 'mediots' that you seem to despise, go email them. I don't write for ESPN or the Oakland Daily Bugle or even the lowly Bleacher Report. Find your favorite one who's all giddy about the deal and feel free to fellate him with your e-praise. I'm sure if you shower them with love and adoration that you will do your part to ensure that Palmer isn't a failure.

And you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong you are! :heh: And for what it is worth, I'll leave the ********-giving to you. :kitten:

many people feel that Palmer had idiots for wr's his last years of the Bengals. Guys who wouldn't run their routes right, not hustle when the qb was in trouble, not run hard when they weren't the primary read. If you think it was Palmers problem and his alone, then those guys tend to be down on the trade. If you thought ochostinko and TO were part of the problem, you may not see this as a bad trade.

I don't think Cerberus has even brought that up, but it may be part of the reason Palmer hasn't looked good since his last injury. The thing is, Andy Dalton is looking just as good this season. So I dunno, the addition of Green, Dalton and loss of Palmer, TO & Ocho don't seem to be hurting the Bengals all that much. They actually look better, but that may be more due to the defense improving. I dunno, but the last few years, the Bengals always looked like **** under Palmer, so that's what I'm going on.

Actually, I did bring it up, but it may have been in a different string, or further back than page 7. As for you claiming "I dunno", that's certainly that truth. :kitten:

As for the "typical Cerb" comment and me bringing up the Texans in comparison, I have to ask why it is that I'm not allowed to talk about the Texans in your mind? I used them as an example to see what kind of double-standards you may be using, but you balked on answering. I mean, you thinking the Palmer trade is a complete failure for the Raiders is based on your beliefs. I could just as easily say that if Derrick Mason doesn't bring home a Lombardi for the Texans then they made the biggest bone-head move in the NFL in decades by not going after Brandon Lloyd. Naturally, if I truly felt that way it would in no way affect your opinion on the trade, just like your opinion on the Raider deal has no bearing on my thoughts about trade. Furthermore, keeping the discussion "open-ended" as you say just means you aren't willing to back-up your statement without the benefit of hindsight in the future. At least I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict it will be a good deal for the Raiders as I believe it will get them out of the also-ran category.

I'll also repeat myself in saying that discussing Raider football with a Texan fan is fruitless. It would be like you asking me to do a deep analysis of the Derrick Mason acquisition. It would all depend on my answer as to whether you found my analysis acceptable or not.

UPDATE: Here is the post where I mention TO and Ocho - http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1808334#poststop

Dutchrudder
10-21-2011, 07:59 PM
Once again, let me re-state that it appears those of us who are 40+ tend to think this trade wasn't a bad deal. The younger "instant gratification" generation tends to think it was a bad deal because it didn't come with a Lombardi attached. So, I'm willing to give Carson Palmer time to become acclimated with his new team and don't feel that the 2012 AFCC game is the deciding factor as to the final status of the trade.

Guess us young whippersnappers aren't patient enough to wait for a 32 year old QB to prove himself again. :koolaid:



And you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong you are! :heh: And for what it is worth, I'll leave the ********-giving to you. :kitten:


Right back atcha :fingergun:




Actually, I did bring it up, but it may have been in a different string, or further back than page 7. As for you claiming "I dunno", that's certainly that truth. :kitten:

Yeah dude, you sure got me there. 7 hours ago you posted in another thread about the AZ Cardinals that TO and Ocho are the reason Palmer couldn't accomplish anything more than a 1 and done in the playoffs.

I'm willing to entertain the idea of it in this thread (since you didn't bring it up here), but honestly, Ocho's not messing up Brady's life despite being Mr. Irrelevant on that team. TO's former teams do seem to do well the year after he leaves. I know they are easy targets and all, but c'mon man, at some point the QB's gotta prove himself and take some responsibility. TO was only there for 1 season anyways, but Ocho was there from 01-10 and they made the playoffs twice.

Although, this would seem to indicate that TO wasn't the problem:

Gaines said. "He's been throwing to his good buddy T.J. Houshmandzadeh(notes), working with Terrell Owens(notes) and Hank Baskett(notes). He looks great. I think he'll be ready to go and step right in for the Raiders.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Carson-Palmer-to-the-Raiders-Looks-like-it-821?urn=nfl-wp9852


As for the "typical Cerb" comment and me bringing up the Texans in comparison, I have to ask why it is that I'm not allowed to talk about the Texans in your mind? I used them as an example to see what kind of double-standards you may be using, but you balked on answering. I mean, you thinking the Palmer trade is a complete failure for the Raiders is based on your beliefs. I could just as easily say that if Derrick Mason doesn't bring home a Lombardi for the Texans then they made the biggest bone-head move in the NFL in decades by not going after Brandon Lloyd. Naturally, if I truly felt that way it would in no way affect your opinion on the trade, just like your opinion on the Raider deal has no bearing on my thoughts about trade. Furthermore, keeping the discussion "open-ended" as you say just means you aren't willing to back-up your statement without the benefit of hindsight in the future. At least I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict it will be a good deal for the Raiders as I believe it will get them out of the also-ran category.

The comment comes from a seemingly obvious pattern of you trying to stitch two unrelated things together and call it an argument. See this thread for more info: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85294&highlight=news

The Texans did not spend two high picks to acquire a new player. The Mason trade was for a conditional 7th. The expectations are completely different. Giving up a 7th for an over the hill WR means the Texans want a stopgap, not a Super Bowl ring. If the Texans gave up say a 1st and 2nd for Brandon Marshall (replace their injured player in AJ like the Raiders replaced Campbell), that would signal to me that the Texans expect to go deep in the playoffs this year and anything less than winning a playoff game would be a waste. That's why I set the goal for Palmer at the AFCC, because the stakes are higher and the condition of the second pick is that. I don't think he can do it, and I don't think they will win a playoff game with him in 2011/12. That's the 'open-ended' portion of my statements, and he has a chance to prove me wrong.

I'll also repeat myself in saying that discussing Raider football with a Texan fan is fruitless. It would be like you asking me to do a deep analysis of the Derrick Mason acquisition. It would all depend on my answer as to whether you found my analysis acceptable or not.


No, you're just flat out wrong here. The point of message boards is to discuss things with people and learn more from each other or just shoot the breeze. Different perspectives offer different conclusions. I always like hearing what other fans think of the Texans and other teams for that matter, which is why I go to different boards to diversify my info, but that doesn't mean I'll agree with them. It's interesting at least, and if nothing else, entertaining. (By the way, if you really don't care about Texans fans opinions, then you should probably stop replying to them)

In any case, feel free to offer your insight on the Derrick Mason trade. My opinion of your conclusion will depend on what you present as evidence and how you draw your conclusions from it. Likewise, I've done some homework comparing potential QBs and their perceived costs in this thread and I posted some of it. I drew my own conclusions and have been posting them as my opinion this whole time. The funny thing about your statement here is that you're the one who was decrying the media for downplaying the Raider's acquisitions earlier in the thread, yet you keep posting the "mediot's" opinions that agree with you. So who's the one with the confirmation bias here? :koolaid:

Cerberus
10-21-2011, 08:52 PM
By the way, if you really don't care about Texans fans opinions, then you should probably stop replying to them.

I said it is fruitless. Besides, I was hoping to talk with football fans moreso than just Texan fans; you know, people who actually follow the game and several different players and teams rather than a homer. There are too many "fans" from all teams that only watch their team play, then go off to do yard work or whatever. In fact, as I type this I am sitting on my couch watching Syracuse and West Virginia play.

The funny thing about your statement here is that you're the one who was decrying the media for downplaying the Raider's acquisitions earlier in the thread, yet you keep posting the "mediot's" opinions that agree with you. So who's the one with the confirmation bias here?

Maybe you don't know the difference between a mediot and someone who is/was actually involved in the game. Here, maybe this will help: Al Michaels (mediot), Rich Gannon (ex-player), Adam Schein (mediot), Pat Kirwan (former scout), Adam Schefter (mediot), Leigh Steinberg (sports agent), Peter King (mediot), are you kind of getting my point now? A journalism degree does not make one a football expert.

Hey man, I joke about nearly everything on this forum.

Now it all makes sense to me.

Vinny
11-10-2011, 11:23 PM
Palmer has looked pretty good tonight huh?

Corrosion
11-11-2011, 06:54 AM
Palmer has looked pretty good tonight huh?

Looked like an NFL QB who had a running game to back him up .... and protection to go with it.


That game was erily similar to the game the Raiders played against the Texans .. at least from the standpoint of who dominated the trenches.

Maddict5
11-11-2011, 08:01 AM
That game was erily similar to the game the Raiders played against the Texans .. at least from the standpoint of who dominated the trenches.

was thinking the exact same thing. right down to hue jackson nearly throwing away a game at the end, where his team is clearly superior, by overcoaching.

thunderkyss
11-11-2011, 08:24 AM
was thinking the exact same thing. right down to hue jackson nearly throwing away a game at the end, where his team is clearly superior, by overcoaching.

I liked the way he had the one-on-one with Danarius More after fielding the punt at the one yard line. Thankfully the Chargers committed a penalty & they had to re-kick.

Don't know why More didn't field the punt at the 20.

Cerberus
11-11-2011, 09:00 AM
Palmer has looked pretty good tonight huh?

He appears to be that which Hue Jackson and the Raiders thought he was and could still be. With only a couple weeks under his belt, Palmer already looks better than Jason Campbell. And once again, there is talk that Manning, Brady and Palmer, are the elite QBs in the NFL. Palmer certainly has the tools, and last night broke Darryl Lamonica's 1968 Raider record for yards per catch with a 14.95 ypc effort. To be honest, I can't remember a Raider QB with as much talent as I've seen from Palmer so far. He has the arm of Jeff George and the football IQ of Rich Gannon, and as a total package appears to be superior to Plunkett and Stabler, though it has yet to be seen whether he has the heart of those two.

As for the trade? So far it is looking like a steal, especially when one considers that Chicago had to give up two first round picks (2009 & 2010) for Jay Cutler . . . AND a 3rd rounder in 2009 . . . AND Kyle Orton. In other words, Chicago gave up much more to get Cutler than the Raiders did to get Palmer! Yet, I think Palmer is better than Cutler, but that is just my opinion.

gary
11-11-2011, 04:29 PM
This trade does not look so funny anymore for the Raiders.

thunderkyss
11-11-2011, 04:42 PM
This trade does not look so funny anymore for the Raiders.

I still think it looks funny. One game against the 4-5 Chargers really doesn't change the way I feel.

gary
11-11-2011, 04:53 PM
I still think it looks funny. One game against the 4-5 Chargers really doesn't change the way I feel.Palmer is a very solid QB with the right team. Correct, that it is too early to tell but I feel Carson has plenty left in the tank. We'll see but it might workout for both teams.

Dutchrudder
11-11-2011, 06:08 PM
He appears to be that which Hue Jackson and the Raiders thought he was and could still be. With only a couple weeks under his belt, Palmer already looks better than Jason Campbell. And once again, there is talk that Manning, Brady and Palmer, are the elite QBs in the NFL. Palmer certainly has the tools, and last night broke Darryl Lamonica's 1968 Raider record for yards per catch with a 14.95 ypc effort.

Is this a joke? Seriously, are you just some troll posing as an actual fan? The guy has 1 good game and you're ready to crown him the third best QB in the league? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh man, that's the most blind homerism I have ever seen on this site. Even the most hardcore Schaub fans around here won't put him in the top 5. Palmer had a good game, against a terrible defense. Guess who else had a good game? Michael Bush, 157 yards on the ground. Not exactly tough to throw when the defense can't stop the run.

Why didn't you come on here after the Broncos game and make this claim? Did losing to Tim Tebow not help further your delusions about his skills? lol... Call me when he accomplishes something.

Also, Campbell > Palmer so far.

Cerberus
11-11-2011, 08:41 PM
Is this a joke? Seriously, are you just some troll posing as an actual fan? The guy has 1 good game and you're ready to crown him the third best QB in the league? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Actually, what I said is that there is "talk" about him being the 3rd best; that is true, that is "talk" with regard to where he is ranked in the upper echelon of NFL QBs. For example, here is one where the writer questioningly ranks him #4.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/blog/raiders-talk/post/Where-does-Carson-Palmer-rank?blockID=592418&feedID=5885

Oh man, that's the most blind homerism I have ever seen on this site. Even the most hardcore Schaub fans around here won't put him in the top 5. Palmer had a good game, against a terrible defense.

Actually, I saw a guy that looked like he came off the couch against KC, which is pretty much what he did. Then I saw a rusty QB against Denver. Thursday I watched a QB that has been on his team for 23 days, and looked really good without much practice. In other words, so far each game he has showed marked improvement, and he is not showing any ill-effects of his knee or elbow injuries. You call it homerism, I call it observation.

Guess who else had a good game? Michael Bush, 157 yards on the ground. Not exactly tough to throw when the defense can't stop the run.

The opposite could be said as well.

Why didn't you come on here after the Broncos game and make this claim? Did losing to Tim Tebow not help further your delusions about his skills? lol... Call me when he accomplishes something.

Because nobody pulled this post up until after the SD game, so I responded. Get over it.

Also, Campbell > Palmer so far.

We shall see, but it isn't looking that way. Even Al Saunders commented "now that's a QB" when watching Palmer practice with the Raiders. BTW, my family are Redskin fans, if you know any just ask them about Campbell.

edo783
11-11-2011, 09:54 PM
Palmer is a very solid QB with the right team. Correct, that it is too early to tell but I feel Carson has plenty left in the tank. We'll see but it might workout for both teams.

Gary, you are very correct for ONE game and it MAY even play out well for the rest of the year. However, they have put the long term future of their team at risk on a QB who has had trouble staying healthy and is way past the 30 mark. Just looks like they are trying to make on 8 the hard way if you know what I mean. The odds are very much stacked against them making it work out well for very long. Pretty glad for Carson that he is doing well though.

Corrosion
11-11-2011, 11:37 PM
I liked the way he had the one-on-one with Danarius More after fielding the punt at the one yard line. Thankfully the Chargers committed a penalty & they had to re-kick.

Don't know why More didn't field the punt at the 20.

I think after Jackson chewed him out he was kinda nervous and didnt want to make the same mistake again ..... maybe he didnt realize where he was on the field and let it go.


He made some solid plays later in the game tho ....


Palmer looks a lot better now that he's settled in and knows the game play / play book better. Tho his OL and running game should get a lot of credit for making him comfortable in the pocket. His recievers made hm look good too - on two long balls , one overthrown by a foot or two and another slightly underthrown they made great plays on the ball .

I bet Rivers would gladly trade places with him ..... Dude got hammered all night long.

PapaL
11-12-2011, 10:32 AM
However, they have put the long term future of their team at risk on a QB who has had trouble staying healthy and is way past the 30 mark. Just looks like they are trying to make on 8 the hard way if you know what I mean. The odds are very much stacked against them making it work out well for very long. Pretty glad for Carson that he is doing well though.

He's 31 and turns 32 in Dec. Hardly way past 30. Brees, Brady, Manning are older than him. He's definitely not old by QB standards by any means. Hell guys like Eli, Schaub, and Rivers turn(ed) 30 this year. IMO, with Carson on a team and Franchise that want to be good and has some talent he would EASILY fit in the second group of top tier QBs.

steelbtexan
11-12-2011, 11:32 AM
Gary, you are very correct for ONE game and it MAY even play out well for the rest of the year. However, they have put the long term future of their team at risk on a QB who has had trouble staying healthy and is way past the 30 mark. Just looks like they are trying to make on 8 the hard way if you know what I mean. The odds are very much stacked against them making it work out well for very long. Pretty glad for Carson that he is doing well though.

No risk/no reward.

To win big sometimes require taking a big risk. I would rather have a risk taking organization than an organization that plays it safe all of the time.

That's just my personality and I realize others will disagree.

Congrats Raiders, hope they make the playoffs.

gary
11-12-2011, 11:38 AM
Carson is not way past thirty at all.

Cerberus
11-12-2011, 11:40 AM
No risk/no reward.

To win big sometimes require taking a big risk. I would rather have a risk taking organization than an organization that plays it safe all of the time.

That's just my personality and I realize others will disagree.

Congrats Raiders, hope they make the playoffs.

Exactly! When Al Davis was alive and pulling the strings, you knew some deals would work out and others woudn't, but you always knew Davis was trying to win. The acquisition of Palmer is very Davis-esque, in that there is a potential for a huge reward. If Palmer becomes the Raiders' franchise QB for the next 4-5 years, then the trade was worth it. If he starts playing like JaMarcus Russell, then it was not worth it.

b0ng
12-13-2011, 10:01 AM
Exactly! When Al Davis was alive and pulling the strings, you knew some deals would work out and others woudn't, but you always knew Davis was trying to win. The acquisition of Palmer is very Davis-esque, in that there is a potential for a huge reward. If Palmer becomes the Raiders' franchise QB for the next 4-5 years, then the trade was worth it. If he starts playing like JaMarcus Russell, then it was not worth it.

Hello. Lets see how Palmer has done so far:

123 219 56.2 1,730 9 TD's 13 INT's

What are Raider fans thinking?

Goatcheese
12-13-2011, 10:22 AM
Hello. Lets see how Palmer has done so far:

123 219 56.2 1,730 9 TD's 13 INT's

What are Raider fans thinking?

Not a raiders fan, obviously.

Considering he came in mid season and tossed like 6 picks in his first two games while knocking the rust off, I think he has been better than I expected for a guy who was sitting on his couch the week before.

Giving up a 1st and 2nd for Palmer is still way too much, but it doesn't look like the worst trade ever the way it did when it first went down.

Dutchrudder
12-13-2011, 11:27 AM
Hello. Lets see how Palmer has done so far:

123 219 56.2 1,730 9 TD's 13 INT's

What are Raider fans thinking?

A few of those TDs came in garbage time too. His INTs are killing that team though. Averaging 2 INTs and 2 sacks a game is really hurting their chances too. They should probably have him throw less often as he seems to be making a lot of mistakes.

The Pencil Neck
12-13-2011, 11:35 AM
A few of those TDs came in garbage time too. His INTs are killing that team though. Averaging 2 INTs and 2 sacks a game is really hurting their chances too. They should probably have him throw less often as he seems to be making a lot of mistakes.

They should be concentrating on running the ball and playing good defense. I haven't watched any of their games since they got him. Are they trying to base their offense around him now because he's got the big name and he's flailing or is he not fitting into their scheme and causing a bunch of problems?

infantrycak
12-13-2011, 11:56 AM
They should be concentrating on running the ball and playing good defense. I haven't watched any of their games since they got him. Are they trying to base their offense around him now because he's got the big name and he's flailing or is he not fitting into their scheme and causing a bunch of problems?

Darren McFadden has been out since week 6 - technically 7 but he only had 2 carries. Palmer got his first start week 7.

b0ng
12-14-2011, 04:08 PM
Darren McFadden has been out since week 6 - technically 7 but he only had 2 carries. Palmer got his first start week 7.

Michael Bush is not a bad running back at all, and I believe he had a few good games in McFadden's absence. Palmer has either been really careless with the ball or has been screwed by an air it out gameplan.

Cerberus
03-10-2012, 08:45 AM
so, for those that thought a 1st and 2nd were too high for known quantity in Carson Palmer, what did you all think when you saw the Redskins give up 3 1st rounders and a 2nd for RGIII? A total unknown quantity.

steelbtexan
03-10-2012, 09:02 AM
The price was about right for Palmer. Hue Jackson knew if he didn't make the playoffs he was going to be fired. So he went all in.

Since his knee injury Palmer hasn;t been the same player. He's still good, but not the great QB that he was.

As far as the RG3 trade goes, Shanny went all in on RG3. If RG3 turns out to be the elite QB that I think he will be then the steep price will be well worth it.

After all when is the last time a team without an elite QB won the SB? Dilfer? I love the fact that Eli said he had become an elite QB then went out and won the SB. That guy has some moxie.

thunderkyss
03-10-2012, 09:39 AM
The price was about right for Palmer. Hue Jackson knew if he didn't make the playoffs he was going to be fired. So he went all in.


Carson Palmer was anything but a "known quantity" & definately wasn't worth the price paid... they did not even make the play-offs, losing out to a Tim Tebow led team.

I thought the price for Palmer was too high. I think the price of this trade was high as well.

Wouldn't it be something though, if the Redskin's target is Trent Richardson. A talent that could turn Rex Grossman/John Beck into play-off quality QBs.

ChampionTexan
03-10-2012, 10:00 AM
so, for those that thought a 1st and 2nd were too high for known quantity in Carson Palmer, what did you all think when you saw the Redskins give up 3 1st rounders and a 2nd for RGIII? A total unknown quantity.

The question with the Raiders trade wasn't whether the price was fair for a franchise QB, it was whether Carson Palmer circa 2011 actually was a franchise QB. I didn't think he was then, and I don't think he is now.

steelbtexan
03-10-2012, 10:22 AM
Carson Palmer was anything but a "known quantity" & definately wasn't worth the price paid... they did not even make the play-offs, losing out to a Tim Tebow led team.

I thought the price for Palmer was too high. I think the price of this trade was high as well.

Wouldn't it be something though, if the Redskin's target is Trent Richardson. A talent that could turn Rex Grossman/John Beck into play-off quality QBs.

Overvaluing draft picks is a common mistake that franchises make. I could see where you're coming from on the Palmer deal. Palmer appears to be damaged mentally.

Relly all the Redskins gave up was a second this yr (They still got their man) and their 1st the next 2 yrs. Whether they gave up too much depends on if you think RG3 will be a top 5 QB in the next 3 yrs (I do)

Even though the Redskins will be without their 1st for a couple of yrs. They could use their remaining draft picks to trade up and get a guy in the 1st rd if a guy they want is there late in the 1st rd. Plus the fact that Snyder is willing to sign FA's to fill holes caused by this trade.

Love the Richardson pick. But I've got a feeling that Shanny wants a guy that has similar talent/build as Marshall, there should be a guy like Streeter/Toon availabe in Rd.3 . There's no way the Redskins made this trade for anybody but RG3. Richardson is a great player though.

This is a fair trade that benefits both the Redskins/short term and the Rams lomg term. As it should be. IMHO

thunderkyss
03-10-2012, 11:24 AM
Overvaluing draft picks is a common mistake that franchises make. I could see where you're coming from on the Palmer deal. Palmer appears to be damaged mentally.

Relly all the Redskins gave up was a second this yr (They still got their man) and their 1st the next 2 yrs. Whether they gave up too much depends on if you think RG3 will be a top 5 QB in the next 3 yrs (I do)


eh.. I like to think of something like this, in the terms of the Raiders/Palmer deal. If the Raiders got to the AFC Championship game, it would have been two firsts. No play-offs & it's a first & a second....

It's about the results of the team. RGIII can be the next Phillip Rivers for all I care, but if the team only has one NFC Championship appearance (loss) over the next 10 years....... yeah, that's too much.

If they're a perennial play-off team over the next decade because of RGIII, definitely worth it.

steelbtexan
03-10-2012, 11:47 AM
eh.. I like to think of something like this, in the terms of the Raiders/Palmer deal. If the Raiders got to the AFC Championship game, it would have been two firsts. No play-offs & it's a first & a second....

It's about the results of the team. RGIII can be the next Phillip Rivers for all I care, but if the team only has one NFC Championship appearance (loss) over the next 10 years....... yeah, that's too much.

If they're a perennial play-off team over the next decade because of RGIII, definitely worth it.

Agreed

I like risk takers. When status quo isn't good enough to win a championship sometimes you've got to step out on a limb.

Personally I think RG3 is the best QB the Redskins have had since the Theismann/Jurgensen eras. It only took 2 decades for the Redskins to get a franchise QB.

If Schaub struggles next yr due to performance/injury woud you do this kind of deal for Barkley/Bray/to a lesser extent Jones? I think I would, especially since the Texans are a young team whose depth should be much improved after this yrs drft.

mattieuk
03-10-2012, 12:46 PM
I think the Redskins argument is a moot. By mere comparison of their ridiculous overpayment for has been free agents, any movement towards paying for a rookie is a solid move.

That said, they're kind of bent over a barrel in their contract negotiations with RGIII now! Seriously hope they've got something in place pre-contract wise.

ChampionTexan
03-10-2012, 01:14 PM
That said, they're kind of bent over a barrel in their contract negotiations with RGIII now! Seriously hope they've got something in place pre-contract wise.

There's a hard cap in place now for rookies, which combined with slotting will leave a pretty narrowly defined range for his contract amount. The recently signed CBA took away the majority of the leverage that RGIII would have previously had.

thunderkyss
03-10-2012, 03:36 PM
Personally I think RG3 is the best QB the Redskins have had since the Theismann/Jurgensen eras. It only took 2 decades for the Redskins to get a franchise QB.

He might be the best prospect they've had (arguably, Jason Campbell was a pretty good prospect), but he ain't a franchise QB yet.

If Schaub struggles next yr due to performance/injury woud you do this kind of deal for Barkley/Bray/to a lesser extent Jones? I think I would, especially since the Texans are a young team whose depth should be much improved after this yrs drft.

Hell no.

If we had a top 5 pick, maybe I would use it on a RG3, Sam Bradford, Jamarcus Russell, Vince Young... but I would never sell the farm to go up & get one.

I like the Drew Brees, Andy Dalton, 2nd round pick guys or the Aaron Rogers, Ben Rothlisberger, Jay Cutler type of guy.

badboy
03-10-2012, 03:55 PM
I am a huge fan of RG3 but way too much given for him.