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Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 10:35 PM
I was just wondering if I am the only one who seems to think this way.
Are the Texans playing agiste the opposing team and the refs every week?

The reason i say this is that we seem to get some really shady calls or no calls every week. This week was

1: the incomplete but complete pass. The Ravens receiver did not catch that long past th e ball clearly bounces as he goes down(yes i was screaming for a challenge also but that s another topic) looking at the reaplay ther Ref was less than 4 yards away looking right at it.

2:The non call on the 4th and 1 facemask against Foster that would have placed us at the 5 yard line.

3:The his foot didnt hit the ground call. That one pisses me off for more than one reason first his foot hit the ground. second that challenge wasnt for the catch it was for yardage. ( im not sure of the rule on challenging so i that one i will let go kinda)

4:Oh and I missed one!!! The not called intentional grounding against Flacco early in the game ie was getting sacked and he just flung it out from his body, went no where near the line of scrimmage he was not out of the pocket and there were no potential receivers anywhere near him! this was the most blatent intentional grounding i have ever seen and it was not called.

There are lots of others that i remember like phantom defensless receiver calls, No calls on Hits to Schaubs knees, Blatent holding calls that dont get called against the OLmen against Mario, I dont remember specific games but i can remember going WTF weekly on Refs calling against us and not calling against our opponent. I was not on a conspiracy train before but after today .....its just way to damn often for my taste.

Just my thoughts

Runner
10-16-2011, 10:39 PM
What is the motive? Why are the league and its officials conspiring against the Texans?

I don't believe a conspiracy exists. Fans of every team could find plays like that just as Texans fans do.

Jackie Chiles
10-16-2011, 10:40 PM
I don't want to contribute too much to what I view as a sour grapes thread (no offense) but can someone explain to me why Flacco was not flagged for intentional grounding on their first drive? He was dead to rights and threw the ball to no one in particular and there wasn't even a hint of a flag. He didn't even throw it like a normal pass, he just shoveled it out of his hands. Did they view it as some kind of tuck rule incident?

Having said that I doubt all the right calls in the worlds would have made that game much more pleasant from our standpoint.

The Cush
10-16-2011, 10:48 PM
I don't want to contribute too much to what I view as a sour grapes thread (no offense) but can someone explain to me why Flacco was not flagged for intentional grounding on their first drive? He was dead to rights and threw the ball to no one in particular and there wasn't even a hint of a flag. He didn't even throw it like a normal pass, he just shoveled it out of his hands. Did they view it as some kind of tuck rule incident?

Having said that I doubt all the right calls in the worlds would have made that game much more pleasant from our standpoint.

That was a blatant intentional grounding. The tuck rule wouldn't apply because if I remember correctly he flung the ball like a pitch. I couldn't believe they didn't call that and that the refs didn't even huddle up to discuss it. Its outrageous calls like that that give people the feeling (myself included at times) that the league is out to screw us. It was like last week's Raiders games, there was at least 2 times I remember where a Raider DB would literally tackle one of our receivers while the ball is in the air. If thats not pass interference isn't there such a thing as no contact beyond 5 yards? I guess tackling a receiver isn't the normal little hand contact they usually call but COME ON! It makes me even more mad every time a ref throws a flag on a pass interference call, then one ref calls a huddle or the opposing coach starts barking for them to change the call and their discussion always ends up with them picking up the flag. WHY DID YOU THROW THE FLAG TO BEGIN WITH?!

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 10:48 PM
What is the motive? Why are the league and its officials conspiring against the Texans?

I don't believe a conspiracy exists. Fans of every team could find plays like that just as Texans fans do.

I understand where you are coming from, it just seems to go against us or not for us alot more than other teams.

TexansFanatic
10-16-2011, 10:52 PM
Just to be clear up front, I'm not passing any judgment on anyone in this thread, but after examining a wide variety of conspiracy theories across a broad spectrum of subjects over the course of many years I've come to the conclusion that conspiracy theories are the domain of losers who can't face reality.

Having said that, I don't think it's crazy to expect that some teams get reputations as poorly disciplined or dirty and thus get those kinds of calls more often than other teams.

Referees are both fallible and are also prone to falling victim to a whole host of preconceptions.

MEGA SWATT
10-16-2011, 10:54 PM
OP, I agree with you. Kubes and company routinely send complaints to the league regarding bad calls or no calls. The zebras are taking it out on the texans.

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 10:55 PM
Just to be clear up front, I'm not passing any judgment on anyone in this thread, but after examining a wide variety of conspiracy theories across a broad spectrum of subjects over the course of many years I've come to the conclusion that conspiracy theories are the domain of losers who can't face reality.

Having said that, I don't think it's crazy to expect that some teams get reputations as poorly disciplined or dirty and thus get those kinds of calls more often than other teams.

Referees are fallible and prone to falling victim to a whole host of preconceptions.

Well said but just look at the calls specifically today, they were not called correctly and were all blatent when looked at. the Foster non call is the only one I can say that could have been missed. cause i didnt even see it till the showed the replay from adifferent angle. And theres no need for name calling.

Also when did we get the thre rep for being poorly disciplined or dirty?

EllisUnit
10-16-2011, 10:56 PM
AND last week if u watch On the TD pass by Campbell he ran a good yard and a half past the line of scrimmage then threw the ball for a TD. I have not seen that mentioned anywhere but i watched it over and over and he was clearly past the line of scrimmage when he threw the TD pass.

Anyone remember that ?

Jackie Chiles
10-16-2011, 10:58 PM
AND last week if u watch On the TD pass by Campbell he ran a good yard and a half past the line of scrimmage then threw the ball for a TD. I have not seen that mentioned anywhere but i watched it over and over and he was clearly past the line of scrimmage when he threw the TD pass.

Anyone remember that ?

I remember the play and watched a replay several times and will have to respectfully disagree. I thought he threw the ball a step before he crossed the line of scrimmage.

The Cush
10-16-2011, 10:59 PM
I honestly felt like after Al Davis's death, the NFL really wanted a feel good Raiders win

Pantherstang84
10-16-2011, 11:00 PM
I remember the play and watched a replay several times and will have to respectfully disagree. I thought he threw the ball a step before he crossed the line of scrimmage.

I rewatched it too. He was behind the LOS when he released the ball.

EllisUnit
10-16-2011, 11:01 PM
I remember the play and watched a replay several times and will have to respectfully disagree. I thought he threw the ball a step before he crossed the line of scrimmage.

i just watched it again and he was on his fron foot a good yard in front of the line of scrimmage.

Pantherstang84
10-16-2011, 11:02 PM
i just watched it again and he was on his fron foot a good yard in front of the line of scrimmage.

Don't try to defend the indefensible. If you look at where the ball was snapped and where he released the ball, he was clearly behind the line of scrimmage.

TexansFanatic
10-16-2011, 11:04 PM
Also when did we get the thre rep for being poorly disciplined or dirty?

Those were just generalities applicable to various teams in the past.

The Shula-led Dolphins of the seventies, for instance, had such a reputation for discipline and perfection that they would rarely get penalized. And not simply because they were actually that good but also because it was what was expected of them.

Runner
10-16-2011, 11:07 PM
I honestly felt like after Al Davis's death, the NFL really wanted a feel good Raiders win

So basically the feeling here is that the fix is in? The NFL isn't a fair competition, but some teams are marked for defeat before the games start? Is it just the Texans are are there other teams on the league's hit list?

Imatexanfan
10-16-2011, 11:08 PM
UMMMPH...IMA GO TO SICK CAL IN THE MORNIN....:spit:

TexansFanatic
10-16-2011, 11:08 PM
I honestly felt like after Al Davis's death, the NFL really wanted a feel good Raiders win

Well, you can't pin that on the refs considering the Raiders nearly doubled the Texans 6 penalties for 50 yards with 11 of their own for 89.

And the refs didn't exactly force Schaub to throw a pick on the final play when the Raiders had ten men on the field.

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 11:09 PM
So basically the feeling here is that the fix is in? The NFL isn't a fair competition, but some teams are marked for defeat before the games start? Is it just the Texans are are there other teams on the league's hit list?

While im not saying the fix is in, I'm just saying what I see. If you dont feel the same I'm all good with that.

Imatexanfan
10-16-2011, 11:12 PM
The Texans from Day 1 has been on the hit list...ever since the expansion draft pick of Tony Boselli, the refs have been against us....its sickening I know but yet it favors other teams and yet nobody really recognizes it cuz usually they are rooting for the "other" team...just sickening...but we are used to it cuz it happens year after year, but I'M NOT and IT NEEDS TO STOP :aggressive:

TheMatrix31
10-16-2011, 11:12 PM
I'm not one to blame football losses on refs (refs have way more impact in basketball or baseball), and I'm not doing it here because the main failures were our offense and secondary....but todays officiating was really bad. Not sure why. But it was really bad. Intentional grounding, the personal fouls (esp. the 2nd)....just terrible.

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 11:16 PM
I'm not one to blame football losses on refs (refs have way more impact in basketball or baseball), and I'm not doing it here because the main failures were our offense and secondary....but todays officiating was really bad. Not sure why. But it was really bad. Intentional grounding, the personal fouls (esp. the 2nd)....just terrible.

Ok im gonna jump in here and say I dont quite agree here. In baseball and basket ball the ref cant take 6 points away from a team or a long completion or run. NFL refs have much more impact on a game than any other ref in sports.

TexansFanatic
10-16-2011, 11:17 PM
The irony of this thread and the mention of the Raiders is that for decades the Raiders have been one of the most penalized teams in the NFL.

And the Raiders have always perpetuated the mythology that the NFL is out to get them because of Al Davis' renegade reputation.

But somehow, the Raiders have also managed to be one of the NFL's winningest franchises.

The Texans are victims of nothing and nobody but their own ineptitude and mismanagement. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 11:21 PM
The irony of this thread and the mention of the Raiders is that for decades the Raiders have been one of the most penalized teams in the NFL.

And the Raiders have always perpetuated the mythology that the NFL is out to get them because of Al Davis' renegade reputation.

But somehow, the Raiders have also managed to be one of the NFL's winningest franchises.

The Texans are victims of nothing and nobody but their own ineptitude and mismanagement. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

So you are saying that all the calls I mentioned here are the Texans fault? I was no way saying that the Texans lost because of the calls. What I am saying is they did not help our team, they way the are supposed to if called correctly.

The Cush
10-16-2011, 11:21 PM
Well, you can't pin that on the refs considering the Raiders nearly doubled the Texans 6 penalties for 50 yards with 11 of their own for 89.

And the refs didn't exactly force Schaub to throw a pick on the final play when the Raiders had ten men on the field.

It's more so the blatantly obvious no calls. I deleted the game off my DVR so I'm going with this play off memory but Schaub throws the ball about 20 yards downfield to Jacoby. Before the ball gets to the spot the cornerback grabs Jacoby by the waist and throws him to the ground as the ball falls about 1.5 yards short, obvious penalty of some sort there and one of the refs throws a flag. The camera cuts to Hue Jackson screaming at the refs, the refs huddle up and decide to pick up the flag saying there was no foul? Even when they show the replay the announcers are "Let's see if there's pass interference. Huh, yea that's pretty obvious. Don't really know what the refs were seeing there". The ref closest to the play throws a flag, then gets talked out of it by someone further away on the field? That right there just doesn't make any sense

TexansFanatic
10-16-2011, 11:24 PM
So you are saying that all the calls I mentioned here are the Texans fault? I was no way saying that the Texans lost because of the calls. What I am saying is they did not help our team, they way the are supposed to if called.

What I'm saying is, quite simply, bad calls are part of the game.

The good teams win in spite of them.

Period.

And just as an aside, I saw Duane Brown flagrantly holding on at least one play today and he wasn't called for it. So the fallibility of the refs worked for us on at least one play today.

The Cush
10-16-2011, 11:24 PM
So you are saying that all the calls I mentioned here are the Texans fault? I was no way saying that the Texans lost because of the calls. What I am saying is they did not help our team, they way the are supposed to if called correctly.

The Texans lost this game on their own and should be held accountable for that. Just like how the refs have horrible officiating games they should be held accountable for that as well

Runner
10-16-2011, 11:26 PM
...

And just as an aside, I saw Duane Brown flagrantly holding on at least one play and he wasn't called for it. So the fallibility of the refs worked for us on at least one play today.

I'd bet Ravens fans weren't happy when the refs picked up the flag on the Rice face mask call either.

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 11:27 PM
The Texans lost this game on their own and should be held accountable for that. Just like how the refs have horrible officiating games they should be held accountable for that as well

This i talk about this all the time. But it seems that it never happens. We never hear about a fine for refs or refs sitting out a game for being bad at their jobs.

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 11:29 PM
I'd bet Ravens fans weren't happy when the refs picked up the flag on the Rice face mask call either.

That flag was picked up for the right reason and explained by the ref, Joseph did grab the face mask but he let go immediatly there was no twist. That is the rule there you can touch the facemask as long as you dont use it to pull the carrier to the ground or hold it and twist.

The Cush
10-16-2011, 11:30 PM
This i talk about this all the time. But it seems that it never happens. We never hear about a fine for refs or refs sitting out a game for being bad at their jobs.

The NFL must run a Bob McNair style management system. The more you fail and continue to exhibit incompetence, the more job security you have..right Gary Kubiak?

EllisUnit
10-16-2011, 11:34 PM
I'd bet Ravens fans weren't happy when the refs picked up the flag on the Rice face mask call either.

yeah he let go, he didnt take him down with it, like the no call on foster being thrown around with a big hand holding his whole face mask, where was that penalty ?

cdollaz
10-16-2011, 11:35 PM
That flag was picked up for the right reason and explained by the ref, Joseph did grab the face mask but he let go immediatly there was no twist. That is the rule there you can touch the facemask as long as you dont use it to pull the carrier to the ground or hold it and twist.
Many people on here would have gone apeshit if the teams had been reversed on that play.

Oz Texan
10-16-2011, 11:36 PM
Many people on here would have gone apeshit if the teams had been reversed on that play.

I would not have been one of them, the right call is right.even if it goes against us.

Runner
10-16-2011, 11:37 PM
That flag was picked up for the right reason and explained by the ref, Joseph did grab the face mask but he let go immediatly there was no twist. That is the rule there you can touch the facemask as long as you dont use it to pull the carrier to the ground or hold it and twist.

I asked what you thought Ravens fans would think, not what the rule was. If that exact same thing had happened against the Texans, I doubt this would be the interpretation. My point is fans see things from their own perspective.

toxictrix
10-16-2011, 11:49 PM
Ray Rice tackled Cushing on that one pass. Offensive PI?

The Cush
10-16-2011, 11:52 PM
I asked what you thought Ravens fans would think, not what the rule was. If that exact same thing had happened against the Texans, I doubt this would be the interpretation. My point is fans see things from their own perspective.

It is what it is, you can't get mad at the refs when they get the call right. If Joseph would have yanked it and turned his head and they still picked it up, then they have every right to be mad because they wouldn't have gotten the call right. It's a matter of instances where they don't, maybe they didn't see the Terrance Cody face mask but how do you justify not calling grounding on Flacco? That play is just wide open for everyone to see. Of course they will miss holding here and there but there is no excuse to get the call wrong on something so obvious especially when its on the QB

Naiirb
10-16-2011, 11:54 PM
Wow every time i see the non intentional ground call i get even more pissed off. Flacco pretty much heaved it forward as he was going down with no eligible receivers in sight. How do the refs miss that?

Also huge fail by the Texans replay staff to not challenge the long ball to Torrey Smith. The ball clearly hit the ground.

Texanmike02
10-17-2011, 12:16 AM
I don't think its a conspiracy. I do think the officiating in all sports has gone downhill. I see no reason why every play can't be looked at for obvious penalties (foster face mask) and reviewed. I'm tired of hearing of the vaunted "human element". WTF is that? I don't want the "human element" I want the "correct call". That intentional grounding, holy crap. That was the very definition of "intentional grounding". He was throwing the ball as he was under the control of a defender to avoid a sack. I did see the bomb you talked about and I looked at my GF and said "that's not a catch, the ball hits the ground and moves". I don't know about the last one. It was a catch but it wasn't clearly +yardage.

I tell my son that you have to play till the whistle stops and you don't blame the refs but it is getting bad. The NFL is a multi billion dollar league. They pay athletes billions of dollars. Why can't they spend a little extra money to get the calls right? More refs on the field? I watch other games and it isn't just the Texans, it isn't any one team... it is ALL of them. The officials are affecting the outcome of the game and that is criminal. That is the very reason I don't watch the NBA anymore. In the NBA what officiating team you get affects the out come of the game way too much. When I buy tickets I pay to see people do things I am not capable of, I do not pay to see people dressed like zebras screw up calls, I could do that from my living room.

Mike

Jackie Chiles
10-17-2011, 12:20 AM
Wow every time i see the non intentional ground call i get even more pissed off. Flacco pretty much heaved it forward as he was going down with no eligible receivers in sight. How do the refs miss that?

Also huge fail by the Texans replay staff to not challenge the long ball to Torrey Smith. The ball clearly hit the ground.

You can tell that Baltimore was all over that replay with the speed in which they got the next play off. Run up to the line, simple running play, nothing fancy. If the roles had been reversed I can just see us trotting up, getting in formation, Schaub looks around maybe motions a TE and (if we even get that far) a red flag flies from the opposing sideline. Schaub and Kubiak exchange confused looks.

Texanmike02
10-17-2011, 12:30 AM
What I'm saying is, quite simply, bad calls are part of the game.

The good teams win in spite of them.

Period.

And just as an aside, I saw Duane Brown flagrantly holding on at least one play today and he wasn't called for it. So the fallibility of the refs worked for us on at least one play today.

See, I just have a problem with that mantra. That is excusing poor officiating. Go back to the TD catch in the back of the end zone vs the Steelers. That was a catch, no question about it. To say "good teams overcome bad calls" when you take points off of the board (or put them on the board) a team can't overcome that. A drive killing (or drive making) penalty is what it is. That catch by Smith should not have been a catch. No question that changed the game. That bad calls are made on both sides is immaterial. It is as if what happens on the field of play is not really that important. I don't like when we get away with one, I feel dirty. I don't like when the other team gets away with one, I feel cheated. How someone can say "meh, you just have to play the game no matter how well or poorly the game is officiated...."

My son plays soccer. This weekend they had two goals called back. One was for the "quarter". The rule states that the ref won't call the quarter while one team is in possession with a chance to score. Right before a kid on my son's team kicked the ball from the '18 (and scored, top shelf no way the keeper could have stopped it) she blew the whistle. The only reason there is a "quarter" is so that they can substitute. The second goal, the other team threw the ball in illegally. (Lifted his back leg) The same kid put one touch on the ball and scored. After he put the first touch (right before he shot) she blew the whistle and gave them "a redo". I don't like redo's as it is kids old enough to know how to throw the ball in (3rd-4th graders) but to take the ball away from a team who has advanced to score and give it back to the offending team? Seriously? My son's team lost 3-1. Of course its little league and nowhere near as important but in any one game you're only going to see 4 or 5 goals scored total. Kind of the same ratio as football. If you take 33% of those away... Of course I explained to my son that you don't complain to the refs and you let the coaches handle it... but if I am (seemingly) not allowed to score a goal then how do I play to "win".

Mike

Vinny
10-17-2011, 12:45 AM
See, I just have a problem with that mantra. 22 men flying around the field. The average play is over in seconds. Stuff gets missed. Simple...as...that.

TexansFanatic
10-17-2011, 12:49 AM
See, I just have a problem with that mantra. That is excusing poor officiating.

No, sir.

I'm sorry about what happened in your son's soccer game and I don't mean to belittle how that must have felt. But let's not confuse the professionalism or integrity of the refs at your son's soccer game with what we see week in and week out at NFL games. These games are watched by millions of people with dozens of camera angles and, yes, there are STILL poor calls. But not so many that anyone should feel justified in feeling victimized in a loss.

Games are filled with successful plays and failed plays. Good calls and bad calls.

Make more successful plays than there are failed plays and bad calls and you'll win.

Again, sorry about your son's soccer game, but in professional sports you're paid to perform and you are to expect some bad breaks and bad calls. The champions overcome them.

Losers cling to excuses. Champions don't.

TheMatrix31
10-17-2011, 03:44 AM
Ok im gonna jump in here and say I dont quite agree here. In baseball and basket ball the ref cant take 6 points away from a team or a long completion or run. NFL refs have much more impact on a game than any other ref in sports.

Yeah but two quick phantom fouls and a star player is forced to sit. What happens then? Balls and strikes are part of every single play in a game.

HJam72
10-17-2011, 04:54 AM
I keep tellin' y'all we're not paying the refs enough!

PAY THE REFS, RICK!!! :)

Texanmike02
10-17-2011, 05:00 AM
No, sir.

I'm sorry about what happened in your son's soccer game and I don't mean to belittle how that must have felt. But let's not confuse the professionalism or integrity of the refs at your son's soccer game with what we see week in and week out at NFL games. These games are watched by millions of people with dozens of camera angles and, yes, there are STILL poor calls. But not so many that anyone should feel justified in feeling victimized in a loss.

Games are filled with successful plays and failed plays. Good calls and bad calls.

Make more successful plays than there are failed plays and bad calls and you'll win.

Again, sorry about your son's soccer game, but in professional sports you're paid to perform and you are to expect some bad breaks and bad calls. The champions overcome them.

Losers cling to excuses. Champions don't.

Still. There are rules to the game. If the game is played outside of those rules it affects the outcome of the game. You're right about the millions of fans etc. Imagine if the IRS just missed a reduction? Is it up to you to "make better investments"? Of course not. Of course if the IRS misses a deduction and fines you for tax evasion it gets appealed etc. I know bad calls will happen but that doesn't justify them. It is as if it is ok for the refs to screw up. Do you remember the game I'm talking about? Renfro? When you miss a call that takes away points? When the refs make the biggest play of the game it is a problem.

I'll give you another example from soccer. The hand of God goal by Marodonna. Argentina beat England 2-1. One of Argentina's goals was scored and it was clearly a handball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfgYnP99doM

In a game in which each team might have as few as 10 possessions it is unacceptable for 2 or 3 of the possessions to end by a bad call. To say anything else is just stupid. As a player do you "play through it"? Sure. As a coach do you excuse a loss by a bad call? Of course not. Is it idiotic to suggest that we should just accept it? Yes.

Mike

Texans_Chick
10-17-2011, 05:38 AM
Mike Periera, former head of officials said on Twitter that it was definitely intentional grounding and that Jones had two feet down.

Weird stuff happens in football games, especially on the road.

TheMatrix31
10-17-2011, 06:10 AM
I'm sorry. In general, and in no way am I speaking on this game specifically, (have to clarify because you know people are going to twist the words) I'm sick of the idea that if you're a good team you can overcome poor officiating.

Sometimes, the calls do matter. Whether it's situational, something that leads to something else.... whatever. You think the Kings should have just "overcome " the corrupted officiating in Game 6 of the 2002 WCF? Of course not.

V Man
10-17-2011, 08:50 AM
I think it goes back to the NFL wanted this team in LA, but couldn't get anyone to step up. So they have a little ill-will towards us.

They aren't gonna outright cheat us with the calls, but we never seem to come out on top on the questionable calls, or important situtations.

I am probably way off, but it sure does seem that way too often.

Vinny
10-17-2011, 08:53 AM
oh come on people...the NFL doesn't hate us. Let's put on our big boy britches today!

Blake
10-17-2011, 08:56 AM
oh come on people...the NFL doesn't hate us. Let's put on our big boy britches today!

I just want the NFL to admit their mistake on AT LEAST the Flacco intentional grounding, and Jacoby's 2nd foot call. Not going to change the game but at least admit to your mistakes.

Runner
10-17-2011, 09:07 AM
The missed grounding was a very bad call.

Still, I don't think the NFL is pro wrestling. Or boxing.

BigBull17
10-17-2011, 10:56 AM
Mike Periera, former head of officials said on Twitter that it was definitely intentional grounding and that Jones had two feet down.

Weird stuff happens in football games, especially on the road.

Woohoo! Almost makes me feel better...not...

Dutchrudder
10-17-2011, 10:59 AM
Jones had two feet down, but didn't advance the ball far enough to make the 1st. It's a moot point in terms of winning the game, but incredibly poor officiating by the guy with the 50" plasmas and HD TV feed. I really don't know how you reverse the call of that catch with 'indisputable evidence'.

thunderkyss
10-17-2011, 11:10 AM
...conspiracy theories are the domain of losers who can't face reality.


This

We had the ball trailing 19-14 couldn't cross mid field.

We had the ball trailing 25-14 couldn't cross mid field.

We're soft.

Luv_ya_blue
10-17-2011, 12:20 PM
Guys, seriously...

Until you've stood in the middle of the field...at full speed...and experienced what those guys experience...you have NO IDEA what you're complaining about.

They don't have 13 instant replays to look at in slo-mo. They get ONE SHOT (without a replay) at full speed. Don't criticize them after you've seen the play a dozen times or more and you're sitting at home watching it on DVR going back and forth...back and forth...screaming at your friends because it "so clear" that they "blew that one." Run it at full speed ONCE and then make your decision.

I've got the link to TASO (Texas Association of Sports Officials) and I'll gladly put you into contact with the Houston Chapter to get you registered for next season...THEN, and only then will you have some idea what you're complaining about.

I've been a ref since `04 and I've missed calls. I've had several times where coaches go nuts on the sidelines over calls made and come back a week later (or whenever the next time that they see me) with their hat in hand and apologize for acting like a turd because we got the call right.

I've called all the way up to and including semi-pro ball, and all I can tell you is--you have NO EARTHLY IDEA how fast things happen when you're standing in the middle (I'm an umpire) of 285-320 lb guys that are moving faster than you can imagine.

Oftentimes you see PART of a play. You see two guys take a tumble, but did you see the START of the play? If you didn't see the play you can't make the call. That = sometimes officials miss calls.

Conspiracy against the Texans???

Grow up...

Texanmike02
10-17-2011, 12:29 PM
oh come on people...the NFL doesn't hate us. Let's put on our big boy britches today!

Its not hates us or not. It is just that officiating badly is bad for the game.

Mike

TexansFanatic
10-17-2011, 12:44 PM
Is it idiotic to suggest that we should just accept it? Yes.


Short of building a time machine that enables us to go back and correct bad calls I'm not sure what else we can do but accept the fact that our team is going to get tough breaks now and then and thus they have to be good enough to overcome them.

thunderkyss
10-17-2011, 12:50 PM
Short of building a time machine that enables us to go back and correct bad calls I'm not sure what else we can do but accept the fact that our team is going to get tough breaks now and then and thus they have to be good enough to overcome them.

There's nothing we can do about bad calls. There isn't anything Kubiak can do about bad calls.

What Kubiak & those 11 marshmallows on offense can do is score when the defense gives you the ball 19-14 against the Ravens on the road. Or even 25-14...

We had that opportunity, bad calls and all, we had an opportunity to control, possibly win the game. When we didn't, that says it all right there. Good calls, bad calls... we didn't have a chance of winning that game.

Vinny
10-17-2011, 01:05 PM
Its not hates us or not. It is just that officiating badly is bad for the game.

MikeOfficiating didn't lose the game....the 76 yards in the last five drives did.

The Cush
10-17-2011, 03:42 PM
Guys, seriously...

Until you've stood in the middle of the field...at full speed...and experienced what those guys experience...you have NO IDEA what you're complaining about.

They don't have 13 instant replays to look at in slo-mo. They get ONE SHOT (without a replay) at full speed. Don't criticize them after you've seen the play a dozen times or more and you're sitting at home watching it on DVR going back and forth...back and forth...screaming at your friends because it "so clear" that they "blew that one." Run it at full speed ONCE and then make your decision.

I've got the link to TASO (Texas Association of Sports Officials) and I'll gladly put you into contact with the Houston Chapter to get you registered for next season...THEN, and only then will you have some idea what you're complaining about.

I've been a ref since `04 and I've missed calls. I've had several times where coaches go nuts on the sidelines over calls made and come back a week later (or whenever the next time that they see me) with their hat in hand and apologize for acting like a turd because we got the call right.

I've called all the way up to and including semi-pro ball, and all I can tell you is--you have NO EARTHLY IDEA how fast things happen when you're standing in the middle (I'm an umpire) of 285-320 lb guys that are moving faster than you can imagine.

Oftentimes you see PART of a play. You see two guys take a tumble, but did you see the START of the play? If you didn't see the play you can't make the call. That = sometimes officials miss calls.

Conspiracy against the Texans???

Grow up...

The Texans lost this game on their own, we understand that, but this thread had transitioned from a conspiracy against the Texans to one that was pointing out poor officiating performances in the NFL in general. That's great and all that you have experience refereeing and you know how hard it is to do it, but those zebras that step out onto the field on Sunday, it is their JOB to get these calls right. This isn't jury duty where the refs are randomly selected and expected to perform a service on the fly. It's ridiculous that people use the excuse "eh, it happens" or "the game is so fast" and "there are so many things to look at" when they blow calls. This isn't little league, where the refs are volunteers and the excuse "it happens" is accepted. This is professional sports where they are getting PAID to not let that happen. If you and your crew can't handle dissecting plays that involve 22 guys at a fast speed, you shouldn't be out there and you shouldn't be collecting a paycheck. Games like yesterday, blatant missed calls everywhere on both sides, seems to be happening all the time in today's game which shows nothing but how these refs are mediocre at their jobs. If this city is so obsessed with not accepting the Texans being mediocre, why are some of you OK with the officiating being mediocre, where the standard is HOPEFULLY a 50% success rate of calls? I want to see more Ed Hochuli's and Jim Joyce's who man up and admit they did a horrible job, that way they are at least acknowledging their mistakes and their performances weren't up to par of where it should be

You bring up how coaches have apologized at a later time because they realized you got the call right, that's great because the bottom line was you got it RIGHT. I didn't need super slow motion to see Joe Flacco being tackled to the ground by 2 guys for a sack only to flick the ball forward a foot into the ground to nobody (that also didn't even make it back to the LOS while still in the tackle box) was intentional grounding. I could see it clear as day as it was happening, and it wasn't happening "away from the play". It WAS the play.

And yea sure, I'll sign up for refereeing. Hopefully work my way up to the NFL where on a Sunday I end up getting 30% of the calls correct, miss or just plain swallow my whistle on the remaining 70% of infractions and afterwards I'll just say "Eh, it happens", collect my pay check and be on my merry, incompetent way.

TexansFanatic
10-17-2011, 04:01 PM
If this city is so obsessed with not accepting the Texans being mediocre, why are some of you OK with the officiating being mediocre

Really puzzling that this is the conclusion some are jumping to.

Nobody is OK with poor officiating.

Perhaps a good old-fashioned analogy will help make the point.

I'm not okay with crazy-assed terrorists killing innocent people, but I know they're going to continue to do so. You do everything you can to keep them from doing it, but the bottom line is that there's simply no way you can prevent every single terrorist attack. It's a sad reality. Period. Doesn't mean I'm okay with it. I'm just looking at the situation realistically.

Meanwhile, back on the football field, you have human beings (a creature by its very nature prone to making mistakes) making split second judgment calls. They are going to make mistakes. It's what human beings do.

To their credit, the NFL has tried to minimize the mistakes by implementing technology and allowing other humans off the field to review plays on instant replay monitors. But guess what? There is a human element involved in that, too. Consequently, there are STILL going to be mistakes made.

So, again, we do the best we can to avoid bad calls. But knowing there is simply no way to keep them from happening from time to time, you have to be good enough to overcome them. That's what the best teams in the league do.

ChampionTexan
10-17-2011, 04:08 PM
Bad officiating and bad officiating that consistently goes against the Texans are two different things. The first one exists, and is probably a product of the increased speed and athleticism of NFL players, simple human error, and several other things I'm not smart enough to identify. The second one is a myth brought on by the existence of bad officiating, combined with a propensity to notice, get angry about and remember those calls going against your team, and the exact opposite propensity regarding calls going against your team's opponent.

I'm guessing most if not all NFL fan bases have sizable components who believe the refs/ the NFL are against them.

The Cush
10-17-2011, 04:14 PM
Really puzzling that this is the conclusion some are jumping to.

Nobody is OK with poor officiating.

Perhaps a good old-fashioned analogy will help make the point.

I'm not okay with crazy-assed terrorists killing innocent people, but I know they're going to continue to do so. You do everything you can to keep them from doing it, but the bottom line is that there's simply no way you can prevent every single terrorist attack. It's a sad reality. Period. Doesn't mean I'm okay with it. I'm just looking at the situation realistically.



That analogy doesn't apply because you don't control or employ terrorists. The NFL decides who suits up as a referee and who steps out onto the field based on a criteria.

This is a better analogy. Steve Slaton used to be a Houston Texan. The fact that he constantly underperformed and produced zero positive results lead to his release and is no longer employed by the Texans.

The NFL has the same power, they control who the referees are. Yes they are bound to make mistakes but the mistakes should not outweigh or equal the right, that is mediocre officiating. I've seen greatly officiated games, and that should be the standard. Not these horrible performances we've seen the last couple of weeks.

TexansFanatic
10-17-2011, 04:21 PM
That analogy doesn't apply because you don't control or employ terrorists. The NFL decides who suits up as a referee and who steps out onto the field based on a criteria.

This is a better analogy. Steve Slaton used to be a Houston Texan. The fact that he constantly underperformed and produced zero positive results lead to his release and is no longer employed by the Texans.

The NFL has the same power, they control who the referees are. Yes they are bound to make mistakes but the mistakes should not outweigh or equal the right, that is mediocre officiating. I've seen greatly officiated games, and that should be the standard. Not these horrible performances we've seen the last couple of weeks.

It's possible it could be better, there is always room for improvement when humans are involved. But it will never be flawless.

I'm not going to argue that the officiating is as good as it can be. But I will say I haven't seen a game this season that the Texans lost because of the officiating.

The Cush
10-17-2011, 04:25 PM
It's possible it could be better, there is always room for improvement when humans are involved. But it will never be flawless.

I'm not going to argue that the officiating is as good as it can be. But I will say I haven't seen a game this season that the Texans lost because of the officiating.

All 3 losses are definitely on the Texans. It just makes watching the game a million times worse when it is combined with poor officiating. The number of incompetent people on the field at once is just too much at times

TexansFanatic
10-17-2011, 04:26 PM
The number of incompetent people on the field at once is just too much at times

Especially when they're wearing your team's uniform!

;-))

rush2112mn
10-17-2011, 04:45 PM
Whoever is running the dvr for the coaches up in the booth might need some updated equipment.......

Luv_ya_blue
10-17-2011, 05:47 PM
The Texans lost this game on their own, we understand that, but this thread had transitioned from a conspiracy against the Texans to one that was pointing out poor officiating performances in the NFL in general. That's great and all that you have experience refereeing and you know how hard it is to do it, but those zebras that step out onto the field on Sunday, it is their JOB to get these calls right. This isn't jury duty where the refs are randomly selected and expected to perform a service on the fly. It's ridiculous that people use the excuse "eh, it happens" or "the game is so fast" and "there are so many things to look at" when they blow calls. This isn't little league, where the refs are volunteers and the excuse "it happens" is accepted. This is professional sports where they are getting PAID to not let that happen. If you and your crew can't handle dissecting plays that involve 22 guys at a fast speed, you shouldn't be out there and you shouldn't be collecting a paycheck. Games like yesterday, blatant missed calls everywhere on both sides, seems to be happening all the time in today's game which shows nothing but how these refs are mediocre at their jobs. If this city is so obsessed with not accepting the Texans being mediocre, why are some of you OK with the officiating being mediocre, where the standard is HOPEFULLY a 50% success rate of calls? I want to see more Ed Hochuli's and Jim Joyce's who man up and admit they did a horrible job, that way they are at least acknowledging their mistakes and their performances weren't up to par of where it should be

You bring up how coaches have apologized at a later time because they realized you got the call right, that's great because the bottom line was you got it RIGHT. I didn't need super slow motion to see Joe Flacco being tackled to the ground by 2 guys for a sack only to flick the ball forward a foot into the ground to nobody (that also didn't even make it back to the LOS while still in the tackle box) was intentional grounding. I could see it clear as day as it was happening, and it wasn't happening "away from the play". It WAS the play.

And yea sure, I'll sign up for refereeing. Hopefully work my way up to the NFL where on a Sunday I end up getting 30% of the calls correct, miss or just plain swallow my whistle on the remaining 70% of infractions and afterwards I'll just say "Eh, it happens", collect my pay check and be on my merry, incompetent way.

I suppose that I'll just revert back to my initial statement...
You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Primarily because you've never done it for even one second. Coaches blow it with decisions...elite receivers run crappy routes...the greatest QBs in the league throw interceptions...the greatest running backs in the NFL fumble the ball. Heck Cush, let's just SHUT DOWN THE WHOLE LEAGUE! Clearly, there is incompetence at every level and in every position. Your argument is straw man at best, and OUTRIGHT RIDICULOUS at worst.

The best of the best screw up Bud...get over it. It's life.

The Cush
10-17-2011, 06:30 PM
I suppose that I'll just revert back to my initial statement...
You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Primarily because you've never done it for even one second. Coaches blow it with decisions...elite receivers run crappy routes...the greatest QBs in the league throw interceptions...the greatest running backs in the NFL fumble the ball. Heck Cush, let's just SHUT DOWN THE WHOLE LEAGUE! Clearly, there is incompetence at every level and in every position. Your argument is straw man at best, and OUTRIGHT RIDICULOUS at worst.

The best of the best screw up Bud...get over it. It's life.

Lol at your bias towards the officiating. I love how I have no right to criticize officiating because I have never done it but I go and see this lengthy post where you criticize Gary Kubiak when you never coached an NFL team, hell probably not even a high school team. Double standard? Or that's just totally different I guess otherwise it would be pretty hypocritical of you.

Coaches blow decisions, and they get replaced with better ones. The "greatest" QB's and running backs throw picks and fumble, but they are the greatest because they consistently perform at a high level. You are basically saying every referee in this league is elite at their job. I don't see that, other wise there wouldn't be such poor officiating performances. If you were to equate the talent of the refs to that of players, in your mind every guy in a given crew is an Andre Johnson and there are no Jacoby Jones's. But since I have never reffed a Pop Warner game in my life I have no room to lay criticism and should just sit back and accept the fact that the NFL employs refs who are potentially average at best at their job and that there is no one better out there to replace them. Sorry I questioned such a SACRED fraternity (where's that form I need to fill out to become one?)

Wolf
10-17-2011, 06:47 PM
I don't see any conspiracy against the Texans.

however I was pissed that the Flacco fumble/intentional grounding wasn't called. That was flat out B.S.

Luv_ya_blue
10-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Lol at your bias towards the officiating. I love how I have no right to criticize officiating because I have never done it but I go and see this lengthy post where you criticize Gary Kubiak when you never coached an NFL team, hell probably not even a high school team. Double standard? Or that's just totally different I guess otherwise it would be pretty hypocritical of you.

Coaches blow decisions, and they get replaced with better ones. The "greatest" QB's and running backs throw picks and fumble, but they are the greatest because they consistently perform at a high level. You are basically saying every referee in this league is elite at their job. I don't see that, other wise there wouldn't be such poor officiating performances. If you were to equate the talent of the refs to that of players, in your mind every guy in a given crew is an Andre Johnson and there are no Jacoby Jones's. But since I have never reffed a Pop Warner game in my life I have no room to lay criticism and should just sit back and accept the fact that the NFL employs refs who are potentially average at best at their job and that there is no one better out there to replace them. Sorry I questioned such a SACRED fraternity (where's that form I need to fill out to become one?)

Take it easy lil fella...there's really no reason to get so worked up.

Everyone is bias my friend--that's life. Some people are biased based purely as a result of emotion, and others are biased based in logic. I'll let you decide which one you think you are.

Take a moment and wipe off your spectacles and re-read what I said. Never said that you
have no right to criticize officiating because I have never done it

What I said is that you have zero frame of reference except as a spectator. Never said that there weren't crappy officials. Of course there are...just like there are crappy athletes, crappy VPs, crappy CEOs, crappy business owners, crappy french fry cooks...

Is it difficult to get into the NFL as an official? Not at all. There are several NFL officials that come out of the Houston Chapter of TASO. Even had one thta officiated in last years super bowl. The crews change each and every year. It's NOTHING like MLB and umpires that stay there forever. NFL crews change every single season. But do they fire an official after a terribly officiated game? No, of course not. Why? Because that'd be pretty stupid, wouldn't you say?

It's ok fella, I understand that you have an emotional attachment to your pov, and I don't fault you for that. I base my opinions of the game of football on the fact that I was a (1) player, (2) coach (oooh, strike 2 on that judicial estimation) and (3) an official. Now granted, I've never had the privilege of taking the pov from the popcorn vendor, so I really don't know exactly how you must feel...but it's gonna be alright Bubba. Take life easy.

The Cush
10-17-2011, 07:21 PM
Take it easy lil fella...there's really no reason to get so worked up.

It's ok fella, I understand that you have an emotional attachment to your pov, and I don't fault you for that. I base my opinions of the game of football on the fact that I was a (1) player, (2) coach (oooh, strike 2 on that judicial estimation) and (3) an official. Now granted, I've never had the privilege of taking the pov from the popcorn vendor, so I really don't know exactly how you must feel...but it's gonna be alright Bubba. Take life easy.

LOL! Yea, I'm the one who came angrily to the defense of the art of officiating, throwing out "experiences" and "titles" at us "popcorn vendors" because we have "NO IDEA" what we're talking about. I'm glad you finally agreed to my point that there are crappy officials. You didn't have to go off on your whole "I'm a referee, let me give you all of my credentials and tell you about the time Jimmy's Dad called to apologize for throwing the team's supply of orange slices at me" tangent (Yes, I am the one who is emotionally invested on the subject LOL). As a former walk-on player myself I'm glad we have something in common. But now I must get back to being an internet nerd, I'm also late for my shift serving Dip N Dots. Don't worry though, I'll be breaking down film aka 0:30 second clips on YouTube during my lunch break to complete my cliche nerdiness.

Luv_ya_blue
10-17-2011, 07:31 PM
LOL! Yea, I'm the one who came angrily to the defense of the art of officiating, throwing out "experiences" and "titles" at us "popcorn vendors" because we have "NO IDEA" what we're talking about. I'm glad you finally agreed to my point that there are crappy officials. You didn't have to go off on your whole "I'm a referee, let me give you all of my credentials and tell you about the time Jimmy's Dad called to apologize for throwing the team's supply of orange slices at me" tangent (Yes, I am the one who is emotionally invested on the subject LOL). As a former walk-on player myself I'm glad we have something in common. But now I must get back to being an internet nerd, I'm also late for my shift serving Dip N Dots. Don't worry though, I'll be breaking down film aka 0:30 second clips on YouTube during my lunch break to complete my cliche nerdiness.

LOL...u Dip N Dots guys are really a hoot! Thanks for the banter Cush. It's been good for a chuckle after a long day.

:popcorn:

beerlover
10-17-2011, 07:33 PM
I don't want to contribute too much to what I view as a sour grapes thread (no offense) but can someone explain to me why Flacco was not flagged for intentional grounding on their first drive? He was dead to rights and threw the ball to no one in particular and there wasn't even a hint of a flag. He didn't even throw it like a normal pass, he just shoveled it out of his hands. Did they view it as some kind of tuck rule incident?

Having said that I doubt all the right calls in the worlds would have made that game much more pleasant from our standpoint.

not only that he is a QB & his knee was down if anything it was a sack.

The Cush
10-17-2011, 07:46 PM
LOL...u Dip N Dots guys are really a hoot! Thanks for the banter Cush. It's been good for a chuckle after a long day.

:popcorn:

It was enjoyable, but don't be expecting me to hook you up with some Strawberry Swirl coupons

Speedy
10-17-2011, 07:58 PM
Is it difficult to get into the NFL as an official? Not at all.

Maybe it needs to be more difficult. These guys are supposed to be the best there is. And I get that even the best make mistakes, but the blatant misses, 2, 3, or more times a game are just inexcusable. How do you miss that intentional grounding non-call? Officials huddle and talk on plays that aren't even close to intentional grounding all the time, but that wasn't even the case here. No flag, no conference, no nothing.

Was it Ray Rice that got the facemask non-face mask call? Then Arian Foster almost gets his head ripped off and nothing. I don't care how fast everything is, you don't miss something like that. A bang-bang play on the sideline, did he get his feet in, where's the ball at if he did, I get not getting those, but the other two mentioned, there's just no excuse for at this level. And if there is, then perhaps it needs to made a little more difficult to get to that level.

Luv_ya_blue
10-17-2011, 09:11 PM
Maybe it needs to be more difficult. These guys are supposed to be the best there is. And I get that even the best make mistakes, but the blatant misses, 2, 3, or more times a game are just inexcusable. How do you miss that intentional grounding non-call? Officials huddle and talk on plays that aren't even close to intentional grounding all the time, but that wasn't even the case here. No flag, no conference, no nothing.

Was it Ray Rice that got the facemask non-face mask call? Then Arian Foster almost gets his head ripped off and nothing. I don't care how fast everything is, you don't miss something like that. A bang-bang play on the sideline, did he get his feet in, where's the ball at if he did, I get not getting those, but the other two mentioned, there's just no excuse for at this level. And if there is, then perhaps it needs to made a little more difficult to get to that level.

Perhaps I should've been a little more specific. Every Tom, Dick & Harry doesn't get to be an NFL ref. You've gotta work your way through the ranks and (as with everything else) you've gotta "know someone" to get in. Is it political? Sure it is. There are a lot of very good officials that I've had the pleasure of working with over the years, but I'd be completely disingenuous to not acknowledge that I've worked with FAR MORE terrible officials. It's just the way it is. And I can tell you that IT SUCKS to work with incompetent officials. I'm not as "biased" as Cush may think. I have a definite distaste for poor officiating. Because when you work with a crappy official, it makes the entire crew look bad!

I called a game the other day with a guy. Our entire crew had approx. 20 flags; 19 of those came from ONE GUY! There were at least 4-5 "sideline interference" calls that went against the home team...one of the flags, even went against the TRAINER (for Pete's sake!).

My point was much more that the "average fan" (not directed at Cush or anyone else) really don't realize how much your eyes mess with you. You see part of a play but not the whole thing. You've been watching these two guys "chicken fighting" for three plays, so you're focused on them and making sure that it's being kept in check...and then somebody takes a tumble out of the corner of your eye. The entire coaching staff and sideline are screaming, "BLOCK IN THE BACK!!! HE BLOCKED HIM IN THE BACK!!!! HOW COULD YOU MISS THAT?!?!?!?!" Was there a block in the back? Almost certainly! Did you miss it--yeah and it sucks to know that you can't possibly see everything all the time.

Yeah it bugs me when people don't put things into perspective...especially when they just don't have the experience...real practical experience. We miss calls...we all do, and YES it's just a part of the game. It's an unfortunate part of the game.

Another argument for another day, is just how much "rules interpretation" goes on. One official interprets a rule as one thing, and another interprets it differently. If you've never sat down with a rules book and thumbed through it, there is soooo much room for interpretation. It sounds very cliche to say that it's a game of inches and seconds...but it really is.

It's not a justification of poor officiating--cause I've sat through games and been critical myself of other officials (which is "frowned upon" btw) and gotten aggrevated at calls missed and calls poorly made. I have no blind allegiance to officials, cause like I've said--I've met a whole lot more SUCKY ONES than great ones.

Luv_ya_blue
10-17-2011, 09:13 PM
Maybe it needs to be more difficult. These guys are supposed to be the best there is. And I get that even the best make mistakes, but the blatant misses, 2, 3, or more times a game are just inexcusable. How do you miss that intentional grounding non-call? Officials huddle and talk on plays that aren't even close to intentional grounding all the time, but that wasn't even the case here. No flag, no conference, no nothing.

Was it Ray Rice that got the facemask non-face mask call? Then Arian Foster almost gets his head ripped off and nothing. I don't care how fast everything is, you don't miss something like that. A bang-bang play on the sideline, did he get his feet in, where's the ball at if he did, I get not getting those, but the other two mentioned, there's just no excuse for at this level. And if there is, then perhaps it needs to made a little more difficult to get to that level.

Forgot to mention...
I didn't see the two plays that you guys are referring to--so I really can't comment on the call. If you've got a Youtube link or anything like that, I'd be more than happy to take a gander at it, so I could make a more educated statement about a specific play.

TimeKiller
10-17-2011, 09:33 PM
They didn't good calls in the Steelers game either but they won. I think that's what good teams do, just more regularly.

What does it matter now? I just want to watch them win a big game...or like, 5 big games in a row...something besides losing or doing just ok.

TexansFanatic
10-17-2011, 09:47 PM
I don't get why the NFL doesn't develop a stable of young, athletic referees who are recruited the same way Air Force jet fighter pilots are recruited and are compensated extremely well for their services.

Only the best of the best with 20/20 vision, high IQ's, and impeccable credentials.

But that's just the opinion of a goofy message board guy.

Texanmike02
10-17-2011, 11:06 PM
Officiating didn't lose the game....the 76 yards in the last five drives did.

I'm not speaking about this game specifically, or about the Texans. I've already said that I feel dirty when the Texans get a BS call. I've reffed little league games before (U14) in basketball and soccer. I know it is difficult. I wasn't perfect. I wasn't being paid several thousand dollars/game either. The Texans lost this game, I've said that from the beginning. That isn't always the case. Anyone remember the NBA ref who described the situation in a Rockets game (the guy who got busted) and how it was fixed? I'm not saying NFL games are fixed either. I'm saying that they have a bunch of under qualified refs. If they determine that technology is the best way to get calls right then review entire plays (or at least the parts close to the ball) right after the play is over. Call penalties or reverse bad ones. Hell, can we hear about ONE time that an official is suspended for a BAD CALL? I see the officiating getting worse and worse every year and here is one thing I think that is the cause:

They have increased the number of fouls that are judgement calls. The defenseless receiver? Come on. That is a judgement. Spearing? Maybe they need to look at simplifying the rules a little bit? Remember the roughing the passer call in the Steelers game? Just say you can never, ever, ever hit a QB below the waist. That or move it back to what it was. The rules for the game are so complex and with people moving faster and more complicated rules maybe it is time to look at using reviews for penalties. It could be done just like a booth review. Even if you give them 30 seconds you could at least overturn the asinine calls that make the beneficiaries feel dirty. THAT would go a long way to making it feel better. That intentional grounding for instance. That could have been called in 30 seconds (before the next play runs). And before you say "that takes too much time"... if you are having to make a change to the game 10 times a game then you probably need to look for new officials anyways. Not only that but that is a grand total of 6 minutes. I'd rather have that 6 minutes given to a better officiated game.

Mike

Luv_ya_blue
10-18-2011, 07:07 AM
I'm not speaking about this game specifically, or about the Texans. I've already said that I feel dirty when the Texans get a BS call. I've reffed little league games before (U14) in basketball and soccer. I know it is difficult. I wasn't perfect. I wasn't being paid several thousand dollars/game either. The Texans lost this game, I've said that from the beginning. That isn't always the case. Anyone remember the NBA ref who described the situation in a Rockets game (the guy who got busted) and how it was fixed? I'm not saying NFL games are fixed either. I'm saying that they have a bunch of under qualified refs. If they determine that technology is the best way to get calls right then review entire plays (or at least the parts close to the ball) right after the play is over. Call penalties or reverse bad ones. Hell, can we hear about ONE time that an official is suspended for a BAD CALL? I see the officiating getting worse and worse every year and here is one thing I think that is the cause:

They have increased the number of fouls that are judgement calls. The defenseless receiver? Come on. That is a judgement. Spearing? Maybe they need to look at simplifying the rules a little bit? Remember the roughing the passer call in the Steelers game? Just say you can never, ever, ever hit a QB below the waist. That or move it back to what it was. The rules for the game are so complex and with people moving faster and more complicated rules maybe it is time to look at using reviews for penalties. It could be done just like a booth review. Even if you give them 30 seconds you could at least overturn the asinine calls that make the beneficiaries feel dirty. THAT would go a long way to making it feel better. That intentional grounding for instance. That could have been called in 30 seconds (before the next play runs). And before you say "that takes too much time"... if you are having to make a change to the game 10 times a game then you probably need to look for new officials anyways. Not only that but that is a grand total of 6 minutes. I'd rather have that 6 minutes given to a better officiated game.

Mike

Mike it takes 6 mins for one call to be reviewed, now. You're talking about drawing out the game alot further than you realize. And as far as "overturning bad calls," it's not gonna happen. Did you forget that it's referees in the replay/review booth as well?? And many of them are in the booth because they aren't qualified enough...or had the right opportunity open up, to get on the field. The crew chiefs/white hats make the calls as to who is on their crew...not the NFL.

Crews stick together for a loooong time...that is one of the most political things about officiating. The replay booth guys aren't going to do anything to hurt their chances to be part of an on-field crew. It's just not gonna happen. And if the "guy in the booth" decides to overturn calls (not that the league would ever make the rule changes happen that would allow that anyway) then he doesn't "have his crew's back." It's one of the very ugly sides of officiating.

panamamyers
10-18-2011, 07:38 AM
The facemask on Cody against Foster was marginal in my opinion. He probably wouldn't make it either way, and it's not illegal to tackle with the helmet. It was borderline, and I was not too upset about it.

I was upset about the intentional grounding. That exact play is why they have the rule in the books. It was a picture perfect definition of the rule. It was inexcusable to not call that.

I also thought Kareem got the short end of the stick on that holding call. Revis gets away with that all day long. He was pulling and tugging and yanking on Marshall last night on that 100 yard int he got.

I felt like the officials really wanted the Ravens to score that first td. The two personal fouls on Antonio could have easily been overlooked and usually are.

Speedy
10-18-2011, 04:38 PM
The facemask on Cody against Foster was marginal in my opinion. He probably wouldn't make it either way, and it's not illegal to tackle with the helmet. It was borderline, and I was not too upset about it.



http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/48595/2525941660041913566S500x500Q85.jpg

Sorry, but that's a clear facemask, blatant and in the open. No borderline about it. And it looked a whole lot worse on replay. Cody snapped Foster's head around. The refs missing that is unacceptable.

BTW, I'm not in the "they lost because of the refs" boat. I'm just pointing out some bad, bad missed calls that shouldn't be at this level. That facemask wasn't a things moving too fast situation.

Speedy
10-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Foster Facemask Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7cdggFpAwU)

Vinny
10-18-2011, 06:30 PM
eh, facemask was missed....whoopie. you can call holding on just about every play. Harping on getting screwed by penalties is kinda weak. All 32 teams deal with the same refs each week.

TheMatrix31
10-18-2011, 06:44 PM
Fuhrer Kubiak obviously runs the Luftwaffe Referee Assocenbund. Let's just blame him for the shitty reffing performance

TexansBlood
10-18-2011, 07:27 PM
That play were Dre was held in the Saints game was a crucial no call p.i by the refs, im still pissed about it.

Speedy
10-18-2011, 09:01 PM
eh, facemask was missed....whoopie. you can call holding on just about every play. Harping on getting screwed by penalties is kinda weak. All 32 teams deal with the same refs each week.

Though that may be true, it's no excuse for the poor officiating. Holding may be able to be called on every play and is not, ripping a guy's head off his shoulders should be called every damn time. I'm not saying it changes the outcome of the game, and as I've said, I'm not crying about losing because of the refs, but that call has to be made. No excuse. And if you've got a "whoopie" attitude about it, well, why the hell even have refs if it doesn't appear to matter?

I don't watch the NBA any more because the officiating is so god-awful. If the NFL gets that bad, well, that's just going to suck.

Vinny
10-18-2011, 09:59 PM
Though that may be true, it's no excuse for the poor officiating. Holding may be able to be called on every play and is not, ripping a guy's head off his shoulders should be called every damn time. I'm not saying it changes the outcome of the game, and as I've said, I'm not crying about losing because of the refs, but that call has to be made. No excuse. And if you've got a "whoopie" attitude about it, well, why the hell even have refs if it doesn't appear to matter?

I don't watch the NBA any more because the officiating is so god-awful. If the NFL gets that bad, well, that's just going to suck.

I'm not excusing it, but the game is fast, there are 22 guys flying around hitting each other for a play that is over in 5 seconds or so. That rip across the facemask only took a second and it's possible that the officials had guys in their view or whatever...it's just impossible to see everything all the time.

The NBA is different. Crap like the superstars having a different standard or certain guys can walk...all that is bush league. I don't see that in the NFL. Just human mistakes. I can live with human mistakes. That contrived crap to please the home fans is something that drives me from the NBA as well. It's a travishamockery.

Texanmike02
10-18-2011, 11:26 PM
Mike it takes 6 mins for one call to be reviewed, now. You're talking about drawing out the game alot further than you realize. And as far as "overturning bad calls," it's not gonna happen. Did you forget that it's referees in the replay/review booth as well?? And many of them are in the booth because they aren't qualified enough...or had the right opportunity open up, to get on the field. The crew chiefs/white hats make the calls as to who is on their crew...not the NFL.

Crews stick together for a loooong time...that is one of the most political things about officiating. The replay booth guys aren't going to do anything to hurt their chances to be part of an on-field crew. It's just not gonna happen. And if the "guy in the booth" decides to overturn calls (not that the league would ever make the rule changes happen that would allow that anyway) then he doesn't "have his crew's back." It's one of the very ugly sides of officiating.

Booth reviews take forever right now. I'm not saying we need to get under the hood, I'm saying a guy in the booth calls down and says "dude, you missed an obvious face mask.

What I'm hearing you say is "they don't get it right and it might not work well politically". In the military we just changed the way business is done for the last 20 years. I can't believe that you are telling me that the military can adjust and allow homosexuals (not a political statement, it is the biggest culture change I can think of in 20 seconds) but the nfl can't change the culture of officiating to get more calls right? Really?

Mike

Texanmike02
10-18-2011, 11:27 PM
I'm not excusing it, but the game is fast, there are 22 guys flying around hitting each other for a play that is over in 5 seconds or so. That rip across the facemask only took a second and it's possible that the officials had guys in their view or whatever...it's just impossible to see everything all the time.

The NBA is different. Crap like the superstars having a different standard or certain guys can walk...all that is bush league. I don't see that in the NFL. Just human mistakes. I can live with human mistakes. That contrived crap to please the home fans is something that drives me from the NBA as well. It's a travishamockery.

Manning/Brady don't enjoy calls that other QBs don't get?

Mike

Vinny
10-18-2011, 11:28 PM
Manning/Brady don't enjoy calls that other QBs don't get?

Mike I see lesser QB's getting calls too. I pretty much laid out my thoughts on the posts above.

TheMatrix31
10-19-2011, 12:13 AM
That play were Dre was held in the Saints game was a crucial no call p.i by the refs, im still pissed about it.

That thing was ****ing critical.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 02:08 AM
eh, facemask was missed....whoopie. you can call holding on just about every play. Harping on getting screwed by penalties is kinda weak. All 32 teams deal with the same refs each week.

My 2 cents.. if the NFL is truly concerned about player safety, these things ought to be reviewed. I'm not for the NFL fining players, but they do. We should have heard about a fine handed out for this.

That face mask we got away with (was it Manning on Rice?) not so much, it wasn't as blatant or as dangerous, should have been called, I don't by the refs reasoning, but we got away with one.

Luv_ya_blue
10-19-2011, 07:07 AM
Booth reviews take forever right now. I'm not saying we need to get under the hood, I'm saying a guy in the booth calls down and says "dude, you missed an obvious face mask.

What I'm hearing you say is "they don't get it right and it might not work well politically". In the military we just changed the way business is done for the last 20 years. I can't believe that you are telling me that the military can adjust and allow homosexuals (not a political statement, it is the biggest culture change I can think of in 20 seconds) but the nfl can't change the culture of officiating to get more calls right? Really?

Mike

I'm not saying that a booth review of calls missed/wrong CAN'T happen, I'm saying it WON'T happen. To compare the culture in the military with officiating in the NFL is comparing apples to...oh I don't know...middle eastern seashells??? The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another--so much so that it's not even fruitful to comment any further on the subject comparison.

The point I'm making is one that Vinny has eloquently stated...it's human error. All it takes is one guy standing/moving in front of a play covered by ONE (not 7) officials. Every official on the field has something different to look at and for. You guys act like all 7 are following the ball carrier the entire time. At BEST, you've got 2 officials out of 7 (NFL) that are watching the ball carrier. As an official you're trained NOT to "watch the game" as a fan/spectator. You've got a zone/area to watch and make sure violations aren't taking place.

So, you're watching your area for whatever you're supposed to be looking for and then the RB comes into your area and you miss something. I don't know what else you guys want...as Vinny said, it's human error. Simple as that.

And as far as the booth sending down a "hey guys you missed a facemask, personal foul, holding, clipping, or fart in a whirlwind"...it's never gonna happen. There isn't ONE COACH in the NFL that wants that. And there aren't a whole lotta fans that want it either.

HJam72
10-19-2011, 08:22 AM
They weren't in position to see the face-mask and I suspect they guy doing it knew that. I will say this, though: had he not done it, Arian was still no way, no how getting the first down. It wasn't a play-changing foul.

mridge01
10-19-2011, 08:27 AM
Now I agree with this thread. It has always seemed like zebras are doing their best to find opportunities to flag the Texans. They don't get many breaks.

Dread-Head
10-19-2011, 09:18 AM
What is the motive? Why are the league and its officials conspiring against the Texans?

I don't believe a conspiracy exists. Fans of every team could find plays like that just as Texans fans do.

If you're viewed as a "gimmie" win and the NFL's prison b-yatch you're not supposed to fight you're supposed to lay down and take it. When the Texans DO fight the refs have to subtlely remind them they're not going to win. The one thing almost as infuriating as the mystery calls against the Texans (i.e a Ravens O-lineman falling on a Texan who's on the ground and LEADING WITH HIS ELBOW! THEN the TEXAN being called for roughness for pushing the guy off him while they're still on the ground) are the a-hole commentators going on about how great WHOMEVER the Texans opponents are. I figure you're playing against opposing fans, the other team AND the officials...you got nothing to lose anyway. Screw it. Hospitalize some cats. If you're destined to be a crab in the bucket be that guy who stops everyone ELSE from making it to the play offs and bruise whenever possible.

Dread-Head
10-19-2011, 09:22 AM
I'm not excusing it, but the game is fast, there are 22 guys flying around hitting each other for a play that is over in 5 seconds or so. That rip across the facemask only took a second and it's possible that the officials had guys in their view or whatever...it's just impossible to see everything all the time.

The NBA is different. Crap like the superstars having a different standard or certain guys can walk...all that is bush league. I don't see that in the NFL. Just human mistakes. I can live with human mistakes. That contrived crap to please the home fans is something that drives me from the NBA as well. It's a travishamockery.

Precisely why I don't watch basketball anymore. Jordan was a damned horse theif who got away with MURDER. Don't believe me? Look at the "game winning" shot he took to win his last championship. He gave the guy gaurding him a HARD shove to the deck to make sure he was open...then sunk the shot. It was CLEARLY a flagrant foul but because it was the "GREAT MICHAEL JORDAN" no call was made and the Bulls were GIVEN a title.

Kthx
10-19-2011, 09:36 AM
I would tend to agree with you somewhat Vinny but did you happen to watch the Jets vs Dolphins on Monday Night? That Revis pick six was incredibly obvious Pass Interference that he didn't get called for because hes a big name, and lets face it.. big name players in the NFL can get away with more pushing off safeties and CB's as well, even AJ gets away with it a lot.

b0ng
10-19-2011, 09:48 AM
Officiating didn't lose the game....the 76 yards in the last five drives did.

This is true, however:

Bad officiating is still bad officiating any way you slice it no matter who won or lost. I have seen a lot of crappy no-calls, followed by ticky-tack stuff and it makes me wonder if these refs are getting peer reviewed and if the NFL is trying to bring newer people into the officiating fold.

This is all over the league by the way, and is not confined to only Texans games.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 09:50 AM
I would tend to agree with you somewhat Vinny but did you happen to watch the Jets vs Dolphins on Monday Night? That Revis pick six was incredibly obvious Pass Interference that he didn't get called for because hes a big name, and lets face it.. big name players in the NFL can get away with more pushing off safeties and CB's as well, even AJ gets away with it a lot.

Who knows why they didn't call it.... Brandon Marshall was given as much as he was getting in that game. Maybe not on that play, looked like he was falling & trying to initiate contact to me.

Kthx
10-19-2011, 09:56 AM
Yeah, its possible that the refs were just letting them play it out if they were both being physical all game sorta like the AJ/Innegan thing. If that is the case then I would change my opinion from bad to good officiating there.

infantrycak
10-19-2011, 11:20 AM
If you're viewed as a "gimmie" win and the NFL's prison b-yatch you're not supposed to fight you're supposed to lay down and take it.

To return to the original thread topic, I think this is the answer. I viewed it from the other side and had the same opinion growing up a Cowboys fan. The traditional winning team gets more calls in their favor. It isn't some anti-Texan conspiracy but we have no legacy of winning so we are one of the affected at this point. Other teams experience the same thing. It does effect games though and I think people are wrong to discount that regardless of whether the Texans are playing or not.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 12:06 PM
To return to the original thread topic, I think this is the answer. I viewed it from the other side and had the same opinion growing up a Cowboys fan. The traditional winning team gets more calls in their favor. It isn't some anti-Texan conspiracy but we have no legacy of winning so we are one of the affected at this point. Other teams experience the same thing. It does effect games though and I think people are wrong to discount that regardless of whether the Texans are playing or not.

I don't know. I think since we aren't winning, every little thing is micro analyzed. Ray Rice had two or three instances he thought he should have got a face mask penalty. I agree on two of them. I'm sure had the Ravens lost, they'd be talking about those. I'm sure there was a blatant hold on Ngata or Cody that wasn't caught.... but we don't care, we aren't looking.

Hell I'm sure that PI on Jacoby would be a major topic for them had they lost.

For me, the bottom line is we still had an opportunity to take the lead & take command of this game. We've got a pro-bowl TE (our #2 receiver), a pro-bowl RB, a pro-bowl QB, & damn good possession receivers in Walter & Dressen. David Carr would have won a Super Bowl with that kind of talent on offense and the mediocre line we have in front of Schaub....... I kid.

But we had our opportunities, 2 of them, we didn't get it done. I watched the game again & the play calling was not the problem.