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ChampionTexan
10-12-2011, 12:49 PM
My post wasn't an indictment on Mason nor an endorsement for Housh. I was just helping a fellow poster from getting confused.

Yeah - I wasn't really replying to your post, but since you were the one who clarified exactly who we were talking about, that's what I chose to quote.

Never felt like you were expressing any sort of opinion in that particular post.

houstonspartan
10-12-2011, 12:54 PM
Of course Mason was brought in to save their ass. I'm saying they are also hoping he can help JJ while he is here which is also about saving their ass. They just forked out $ on a new contract for JJ. That didn't look to good especially last week.

But, JJ has worked under one of the top recievers in the NFL for four years now. If he hasn't put it all together yet, when will he? What can this guy "help" JJ with?

thunderkyss
10-12-2011, 01:10 PM
Texans have waived RB Chris Ogbonnaya.

Ward & Tate are supposed to be ready to go.

Hervoyel
10-12-2011, 01:14 PM
Of course Mason was brought in to save their ass. I'm saying they are also hoping he can help JJ while he is here which is also about saving their ass. They just forked out $ on a new contract for JJ. That didn't look to good especially last week.


I'm of the opinion that JJ has been here four years working alongside the consummate professional at his position (Andre Johnson) and if he doesn't get what it takes by now then nothing and no one can help him.

I bet he doesn't make it out of camp next year.

thunderkyss
10-12-2011, 01:19 PM
I don't think we have done this during the Kubiak era.


I don't think we traded draft picks. But we traded Babin & TJ during the season. For Babin we got Will Demps, can't remember what we got for TJ....

Texn4life
10-12-2011, 01:20 PM
I don't think we traded draft picks. But we traded Babin & TJ during the season. For Babin we got Will Demps, can't remember what we got for TJ....

I'm pretty sure we got a 5th rounder for Travis Johnson.

thunderkyss
10-12-2011, 01:23 PM
My thinking with Mason being brought in is as a last ditch effort to help Jacoby Jones become the receiver he has been projected to be since he was drafted 4 years ago. Mason is more knowledgable than most coaches because of the 15 years experience in the NFL which has included playoffs and a superbowl. Mason also didn't really produce until his 4th season which Jacoby is in right now. It is the between the ears part that Jacoby needs the most work on and Mason is probably the best player to help him in all phases of his game.

That sounds good, I hadn't thought of that. But we drafted Jacoby in 2007, 4 years ago, but this is Jacoby's 5th season.

2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011

thunderkyss
10-12-2011, 01:30 PM
The flaw with your logic is this:

In this offense, you frequently don't throw the ball to the open guy. You throw the ball to the guy who's GOING to be open. Matt drops back reading the defense and then throws to the open guy WHERE the open guy is supposed to be.

One problem with Jacoby is that he's lazy with his cuts and routes and he's frequently not where he's supposed to be. Matt throws the ball. Jacoby's about 5 yards deeper than he's supposed to be. Ball falls incomplete and Matt looks like he underthrew it.

JJ was supposed to be open almost twice as often as Walter and Anderson but he was in the wrong places.

It's too hard to tell where Jacoby is "supposed" to be, we have no idea. & while it is plausible, when Matt overthrew Walter on that seem route, Owen had to pick one out of the dirt, stretch to get another one & there was a TD pass to Vickers that was high & behind his target.....

It also looked like every time Matt tried to throw it deep to Jacoby he was getting hit.

If the OL protects better this week, we'll see if there is any difference, if so I'll assume the protection was the biggest problem. If not, then Jacoby. But from what I saw, I'm not seeing what "everybody" else is seeing.

Texn4life
10-12-2011, 01:33 PM
It's too hard to tell where Jacoby is "supposed" to be, we have no idea. & while it is plausible, when Matt overthrew Walter on that seem route, Owen had to pick one out of the dirt, stretch to get another one & there was a TD pass to Vickers that was high & behind his target.....

It also looked like every time Matt tried to throw it deep to Jacoby he was getting hit.

If the OL protects better this week, we'll see if there is any difference, if so I'll assume the protection was the biggest problem. If not, then Jacoby. But from what I saw, I'm not seeing what "everybody" else is seeing.

I can tell you what I see from Jacoby. I see dropped passes, lack of ball security, sloppy routes, and he's slow to come out of breaks. All things that are devastating for a receiver.

Mr teX
10-12-2011, 01:33 PM
It's too hard to tell where Jacoby is "supposed" to be, we have no idea. & while it is plausible, when Matt overthrew Walter on that seem route, Owen had to pick one out of the dirt, stretch to get another one & there was a TD pass to Vickers that was high & behind his target.....

It also looked like every time Matt tried to throw it deep to Jacoby he was getting hit.

If the OL protects better this week, we'll see if there is any difference, if so I'll assume the protection was the biggest problem. If not, then Jacoby. But from what I saw, I'm not seeing what "everybody" else is seeing.

baloney....dude's been in the league for 4 years. You know what you've got at that point. & the results aren't good. It's the same logic people use when talking about Smithiak......with the same results no less.

kiwitexansfan
10-12-2011, 01:37 PM
:toropalm:

gonna tell me there was absolutely nobody out there under 30 that was not to be had on the market? ho hum....

Wow nearly a whole page before the negativity came out, well done Texans fans.

thunderkyss
10-12-2011, 01:40 PM
I can tell you what I see from Jacoby. I see dropped passes......

If he dropped a couple of passes Sunday, I could understand the criticism he has gotten since. That is definitely something he has had a problem with.

But to say he's breaking routes off too early, too late now all of a sudden... makes me wonder how all those other balls hit him in the chest before.

2 passes were thrown to Jacoby that could be considered short to intermediate. That one he got 9 yards on & the slant that went right threw his hands. Then there was the fade in the endzone... other than that, nothing else was even close.

Texn4life
10-12-2011, 01:44 PM
If he dropped a couple of passes Sunday, I could understand the criticism he has gotten since. That is definitely something he has had a problem with.

But to say he's breaking routes off too early, too late now all of a sudden... makes me wonder how all those other balls hit him in the chest before.

2 passes were thrown to Jacoby that could be considered short to intermediate. That one he got 9 yards on & the slant that went right threw his hands. Then there was the fade in the endzone... other than that, nothing else was even close.

At this point Jacoby has a history, and that is a history that can't be ignored. This is the problem with this franchise. We've put our heads in the sand for far too long.

Finally it looks like they've gotten their head out of their butts and realized some guys just are what they are and won't get better. We started by cutting dead weight in DA, and hopefully it'll continue by letting JJ cheer on the offense on the sidelines once AJ comes back and D-Mace gets up to speed.

Mr teX
10-12-2011, 01:47 PM
If he dropped a couple of passes Sunday, I could understand the criticism he has gotten since. That is definitely something he has had a problem with.

But to say he's breaking routes off too early, too late now all of a sudden... makes me wonder how all those other balls hit him in the chest before.

2 passes were thrown to Jacoby that could be considered short to intermediate. That one he got 9 yards on & the slant that went right threw his hands. Then there was the fade in the endzone... other than that, nothing else was even close.

There was a critical 3rd down late in the game where it appears schaub threw it just out of his reach. after watching the replay, It looks to me that Jacoby didn't "square off" his route enough, which caused him to drift about a yard too deep & it slowed him down just enough to not be able to get the spot where schaub threw the ball. Guys with supreme talent like AJ & CJ can get away with this. JJ? not so much.

This highlights one of his biggest weaknesses....route running. Most qb's in the NFL aren't throwing to you the WR, they're throwing to a spot & precision on route running is key to being able to get to where you need to be & it's no wonder Schaub seemingly doesn't trust him.

TexansSeminole
10-12-2011, 01:53 PM
If he dropped a couple of passes Sunday, I could understand the criticism he has gotten since. That is definitely something he has had a problem with.

But to say he's breaking routes off too early, too late now all of a sudden... makes me wonder how all those other balls hit him in the chest before.

2 passes were thrown to Jacoby that could be considered short to intermediate. That one he got 9 yards on & the slant that went right threw his hands. Then there was the fade in the endzone... other than that, nothing else was even close.

Bottom line, we need production. JJ is just not getting it done at this point, whatever the reason. There is no denying that.

We should really focus on a wide receivers hands and route running abilities when we draft them. We don't need to take flyers on burners like JJ. We've got a legit offensive system that gets guys open, it isn't necessary that we have a guy that runs a 4.3. All we need our receiver to do is run a crisp route and catch the damn ball.

2BCF
10-12-2011, 02:03 PM
tweet by Mason

deemason85 Derrick Mason
A setback is a set up for something great!! I'm Hungrier than ever....

I like that.

EVOLVIST
10-12-2011, 02:20 PM
My thoughts on Mason (for what it's worth)?

It's fantastic genetics. Do you realise that Mason, in his 15 years in the NFL, has never missed time with a significant injury? Not many players can boast that?

What's equally impressive is that Mason has really sacrificed his body in countless ways to make that all important catch. He's taken some hits that 70% of the recievers in the NFL wouldnt take, and every time Mason gets off the turf, after you thought he was going down for good. Scary hits. Low hits. Hits while leaping.

He is a genetic freak.

Mason does something when he's on the field, too. Even if he doesn't catch a ball, every DB and LB has to respect him, regardless of his age. And if they don't, knowing the player Mason is, he'll make them pay in big ways.

Obviously we've yet to see him play as a Texan, but if he can even hit half the numbers he did in Baltimore, a year ago...this pick was well worth it.

Texn4life
10-12-2011, 02:27 PM
My thoughts on Mason (for what it's worth)?

It's fantastic genetics. Do you realise that Mason, in his 15 years in the NFL, has never missed time with a significant injury? Not many players can boast that?

What's equally impressive is that Mason has really sacrificed his body in countless ways to make that all important catch. He's taken some hits that 70% of the recievers in the NFL wouldnt take, and every time Mason gets off the turf, after you thought he was going down for good. Scary hits. Low hits. Hits while leaping.

He is a genetic freak.

Mason does something when he's on the field, too. Even if he doesn't catch a ball, every DB and LB has to respect him, regardless of his age. And if they don't, knowing the player Mason is, he'll make them pay in big ways.

Obviously we've yet to see him play as a Texan, but if he can even hit half the numbers he did in Baltimore, a year ago...this pick was well worth it.

I remember him playing a few years ago with a dislocated shoulder, and he still managed to make plays. Jacoby is still trying to learn how to make plays with a dislocated brain.

Thorn
10-12-2011, 02:32 PM
Jacoby is still trying to learn how to make plays with a dislocated brain.

They've found his brain?

Hervoyel
10-12-2011, 02:34 PM
I don't think we traded draft picks. But we traded Babin & TJ during the season. For Babin we got Will Demps, can't remember what we got for TJ....

Babin was traded to Seattle for safety Michael Boulware who was here the rest of that year (2007) and then released. We basically gave Jason Babin away following his best camp since arriving here.

TJ we got three packs of Jiffy-Pop for and were glad to get it.

HOU-TEX
10-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Babin was traded to Seattle for safety Michael Boulware who was here the rest of that year (2007) and then released. We basically gave Jason Babin away following his best camp since arriving here.
TJ we got three packs of Jiffy-Pop for and were glad to get it.

I remember that too. I remember discussing him with someone here on the board. I really thought he was in for a breakout year that year. Meh, shows what I know.

We got a 6th rounder for TJ. Can't remember who was the pick and am too lazy to go find out. heh

*Curiosity got the best of me.......it was 6th round pick Trindon Holliday

Ndevine7
10-12-2011, 02:40 PM
I remember that too. I remember discussing him with someone here on the board. I really thought he was in for a breakout year that year. Meh, shows what I know.

We got a 6th rounder for TJ. Can't remember who was the pick and am too lazy to go find out. heh

Trindon Holliday I believe

Texn4life
10-12-2011, 03:04 PM
"Derrick is a great route runner and has great hands," Ravens head coach John Harbaugh, who coached Mason for three seasons, said Wednesday. "Any time he gets any kind of one-on-one coverage, heís not going to be a guy youíre going to be able to cover that way. Heíll find a way to get open. Matt (Schaub) is a good timing passer and very accurate. He can get him the ball. Derrick is really competitive. He wants to be a big part of whatís going on, and thatís what has made him so good all of those years.Ē

This describes everything Jacoby Jones isn't and doesn't do.

Dutchrudder
10-12-2011, 03:53 PM
I bet Mason is happy that he's finally on a Super Bowl contender.

brakos82
10-12-2011, 03:55 PM
I bet Mason is happy that he's finally on a Super Bowl contender.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/43/i_see_what_you_did_there.jpg

Double Barrel
10-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Without Andre Johnson on the field is Walter really all that good?

He looked pretty good last Sunday...

http://prod.static.texans.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/HOU/photos/clubimages/2011/10-October/Kevin_Walter_Leaping_Catch_FINAL--nfl_medium_540_360.jpg

Kubiak knows his ass is on the line this year.

I don't believe it. We cannot assume anything with McNair based upon other NFL owners.

There is no credible evidence available that indicates McNair has Kubiak on a so-called "hot seat" right now. If you have something - anything - please share it, because I have seen absolutely nothing in that regard.

houstonspartan
10-12-2011, 04:50 PM
He looked pretty good last Sunday...

http://prod.static.texans.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/HOU/photos/clubimages/2011/10-October/Kevin_Walter_Leaping_Catch_FINAL--nfl_medium_540_360.jpg



I don't believe it. We cannot assume anything with McNair based upon other NFL owners.

There is no credible evidence available that indicates McNair has Kubiak on a so-called "hot seat" right now. If you have something - anything - please share it, because I have seen absolutely nothing in that regard.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but, they appear to be making moves this season that I've never seen before. In this situation, Kubiak would have used his standard "we're going to go with what we got" response to a terrible player. That's how he normally operates: he let's players - and coaches - try and try and try, and doesn't really care if they're not progressing.

This time, they're making changes. That says something. Not sure what, but something is going on with this Front Office.

Double Barrel
10-12-2011, 04:53 PM
Normally, I'd agree with you, but, they appear to be making moves this season that I've never seen before. In this situation, Kubiak would have used his standard "we're going to go with what we got" response to a terrible player. That's how he normally operates: he let's players - and coaches - try and try and try, and doesn't really care if they're not progressing.

This time, they're making changes. That says something. Not sure what, but something is going on with this Front Office.

I think he's just learning on the job and has an owner with the patience of a cat that allows Kubiak to do so.

Barring some catastrophic meltdown, I just don't see a scenario where McNair cleans house, all things considered. He's publicly stated that we're on the right track after losing to the Ravens last year, has publicly stated that he does not like change, and with the lock-out, injuries, and new DC, I'm feeling Kubiak is here through 2012.

Hervoyel
10-12-2011, 04:53 PM
He looked pretty good last Sunday...

http://prod.static.texans.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/HOU/photos/clubimages/2011/10-October/Kevin_Walter_Leaping_Catch_FINAL--nfl_medium_540_360.jpg



I don't believe it. We cannot assume anything with McNair based upon other NFL owners.

There is no credible evidence available that indicates McNair has Kubiak on a so-called "hot seat" right now. If you have something - anything - please share it, because I have seen absolutely nothing in that regard.

I understand he's got some hands. Is he good at getting open? Is he good at getting open when not sharing the field with the massive gravitational pull on DB's that AJ brings?

I'm just throwing out there the idea that he might not be the guy who gets himself wide open all the time without a little help.

____________________

Second topic I agree, McNair doesn't strike me as a guy who could even find the hot seat if he wanted to put somebody on it.

Where the Texans are concerned I'd take this as more of the end result of a tightly controlled board meeting where Bob, Cal, Rick, and Gary all sat down and decided what kind of damage control needed to be done. The conclusion was that it needed to look like the Texans were "doing something" about "The Jacoby Situation" so Rick was tasked with going out and finding an inexpensive veteran with decent name recognition to bring in and assuage the fears of the loyal custo... err. "fans". Yeah, "fans. Make it look like we're putting some feet to the fire around here and taking things seriously.

Probably not likely but that's the mental picture I get, probably because that's the way they come across to me.

Double Barrel
10-12-2011, 04:58 PM
I understand he's got some hands. Is he good at getting open? Is he good at getting open when not sharing the field with the massive gravitational pull on DB's that AJ brings?

I'm just throwing out there the idea that he might not be the guy who gets himself wide open all the time without a little help.

I guess it's just how you framed the question that caused me to respond.

I think AJ makes everyone on the offense better. His mere presence demands things from opposing defenses that allow the rest of our offense to run better.

You mentioned is "Walter really all that good", and obviously he's not as good with AJ being on the field. But, I think he's a solid, reliable WR, and too often gets under-valued by many Texans fans, IMO.

gwallaia
10-12-2011, 04:59 PM
Was Webster Slaughter not available??

I was actually wondering about Haven Moses.

kiwitexansfan
10-12-2011, 05:09 PM
I guess it's just how you framed the question that caused me to respond.

I think AJ makes everyone on the offense better. His mere presence demands things from opposing defenses that allow the rest of our offense to run better.

You mentioned is "Walter really all that good", and obviously he's not as good with AJ being on the field. But, I think he's a solid, reliable WR, and too often gets under-valued by many Texans fans, IMO.

ESPECIALLY when you factor in his worth as a blocker.

brakos82
10-12-2011, 05:10 PM
Bring back 00! :smiliedance:

Hervoyel
10-12-2011, 05:38 PM
I was actually wondering about Haven Moses.

Oh yeah, workin' that Broncos connection to the limit!

I like it. I like it a lot. Get him on the phone!

BigBull17
10-12-2011, 05:41 PM
I guess it's just how you framed the question that caused me to respond.

I think AJ makes everyone on the offense better. His mere presence demands things from opposing defenses that allow the rest of our offense to run better.

You mentioned is "Walter really all that good", and obviously he's not as good with AJ being on the field. But, I think he's a solid, reliable WR, and too often gets under-valued by many Texans fans, IMO.

Couldn't agree more. I was wondering why Walter hadn't been more included. Excellent hands and route runner.

thunderkyss
10-12-2011, 05:48 PM
Without Andre Johnson on the field is Walter really all that good?


He looked pretty good last Sunday...


ESPECIALLY when you factor in his worth as a blocker.

If you're going to consider Walter's blocking in his worth to the team, you have to consider KJax run support when evaluating his worth.

IMO, the player needs to attain a certain level in his basic job duties before we can start giving them credit for the extras they bring.

KJax doesn't cover WRs well enough for us to give him any credit as a CB. At the same time, Walter doesn't do enough WR stuff for us to say that his run blocking warrants his position on this team.

Matt Schuab threw the ball 51 times Sunday. 17 times (according to Football Outsiders (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85837)) targeting WRs.. less than half his targets were to the guys who's primary responsibility is to catch footballs.

Of those 17 WR targets, 9 of them (according to Football outsiders (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85837)) was to Jacoby Jones. Why?

Because he was open.

81 yards and a touchdown is a respectable day for a Wide Receiver... but when your QB throws for 416 yards, it points to problems in your passing game, especially when you've got 3 other players who had better days. Joel Dressen, 112 yards & a touchdown, Arian Foster 116 yards, & Owen Daniels 89 yards.

That is no way to stretch a defense, that is no way to open up the running game, & that is a highly unlikely way to get TDs on the board.

Do we need a better receiver on this team than Jacoby Jones? Yes.

Do we need a better receiver on this team than David Anderson? Yes.

Do we need a better receiver on this team than Kevin Walter? Yes.

Is this 37 year old man a better receiver than our three guys? More than likely. When Andre comes back, Mason will still be our #2 & KDub will be the 3rd receiver like he's supposed to be & Jacoby will fall back to the 4th receiver spot where he's supposed to be.

Ricky Proehl.... that's the role Walter should be playing on this team & I'm not the first person to say so.

Double Barrel
10-12-2011, 05:49 PM
Second topic I agree, McNair doesn't strike me as a guy who could even find the hot seat if he wanted to put somebody on it.

Where the Texans are concerned I'd take this as more of the end result of a tightly controlled board meeting where Bob, Cal, Rick, and Gary all sat down and decided what kind of damage control needed to be done. The conclusion was that it needed to look like the Texans were "doing something" about "The Jacoby Situation" so Rick was tasked with going out and finding an inexpensive veteran with decent name recognition to bring in and assuage the fears of the loyal custo... err. "fans". Yeah, "fans. Make it look like we're putting some feet to the fire around here and taking things seriously.

Probably not likely but that's the mental picture I get, probably because that's the way they come across to me.

I missed this earlier. Funny post, because I always imagine a corporate boardroom type meeting, as well. Might not be that way at all, but you can just imagine Cal doing his best Bill Lumbergh impersonation: "Hello, Rick, whats happening? Ummm, I'm gonna need you to go ahead come in tomorrow. So if you could be here around 9 that would be great, mmmkay... oh oh! and I almost forgot, ahh, I'm also gonna need you to go ahead and sign a well known receiver for not too much money, too, kay. We, ahh, found out Jacoby Jones sucks last week and, ah, we sorta need to play catch up."

http://www.johnhaydon.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bill-lumbergh-office-spage-manager.jpg

Double Barrel
10-12-2011, 05:57 PM
If you're going to consider Walter's blocking in his worth to the team, you have to consider KJax run support when evaluating his worth.


Consider we blew a first round pick on Jackson and we gave a 7th round pick to the Bengals for Walter.

Walter was never expected to be a no. 1 receiver on this team. Jackson was drafted to be a no. 1 corner, and dude is barely a nickel right now.

I'm not feeling your comparison, man, but I understand your reach.

CretorFrigg
10-12-2011, 06:05 PM
Is anybody else worried about Mason's age? He's 37.

brakos82
10-12-2011, 06:10 PM
I missed this earlier. Funny post, because I always imagine a corporate boardroom type meeting, as well. Might not be that way at all, but you can just imagine Cal doing his best Bill Lumbergh impersonation: "Hello, Rick, whats happening? Ummm, I'm gonna need you to go ahead come in tomorrow. So if you could be here around 9 that would be great, mmmkay... oh oh! and I almost forgot, ahh, I'm also gonna need you to go ahead and sign a well known receiver for not too much money, too, kay. We, ahh, found out Jacoby Jones sucks last week and, ah, we sorta need to play catch up."

http://www.johnhaydon.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bill-lumbergh-office-spage-manager.jpg

But... bu... I believe you have my draft pick?

http://www.thecollaredsheep.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/milton-office-space.jpg

I... I'll set Reliant on fire.

gary
10-12-2011, 06:37 PM
Having two Pro Bowlers on the field at the same time once AJ comes back sounds good to me.

srrono
10-12-2011, 06:53 PM
Bring in Deon Sanders he is only 44, I bet he is still better than our #2 CBs lol

ChampionTexan
10-12-2011, 06:59 PM
Having two Pro Bowlers on the field at the same time once AJ comes back sounds good to me.

Waddya mean two, and waddya mean when AJ gets back? We had three this past Sunday. Although fat lotta good it did us.

Naiirb
10-12-2011, 07:08 PM
Few quotes from Nick Scurfield's and the Texans twitter

New #Texans WR Derrick Mason: "Iím excited. Coming to a situation, a team thatís winning, a young team... Iím happy to be here."

Mason: "Every time Iíve went up against this team, they put up a lot of yardage & a lot of pts. For an offensive player, thatís his dream."

Mason: "Iím going to enjoy this run that weíre gonna go on. Itís gonna be a nice run, so hopefully itíll end up in Indy."

Mason called it "a breath of fresh air" to "come to a situation where they want you & they believe in what you can do"

I asked Mason if he's focused on learning certain parts of the playbook so he can play Sunday. His response: "I will play Sunday."

Mason said he'll be in his playbook "all night tonight, tomorrow morning, all the way up until Sunday" to be ready to play

Texn4life
10-12-2011, 07:17 PM
I said right when we acquired him that he'll be able to play on Sunday. There is nothing like getting a pissed off player ready to prove everybody wrong. Keep that fire D-Mace!!!!

Wolf
10-12-2011, 08:00 PM
for career wise.. JJ and Mason average 12.8 yards a catch.

mason caught 69 balls last year... JJ has 108 over his full career

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/10517/jacoby-jones

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1263/derrick-mason

The Pencil Neck
10-12-2011, 08:09 PM
They've found his brain?

That was a typo. He didn't mean DISlocated, he meant UNlocated.

SheTexan
10-12-2011, 08:09 PM
As long as I don't see JJ on the field Sunday, I'll be happy to root for the old man, ex Titan who kicked our ass a few years back! Age doesn't worry me, attitude does. I pray to all the football gawds above that he comes in and plays TOUGH, kickass football; not soft, wuzzyfied (made that up):heh: football like jj.

Our O has got to come out Sunday with a killer attitude or the Ravens will send our team back to Texas with pacifiers in their mouths!!:baby:

Texan_Bill
10-12-2011, 08:32 PM
Derrrick Mason?


"Championship!"

EVOLVIST
10-12-2011, 08:42 PM
Is anybody else worried about Mason's age? He's 37.

You worried about Ray Lewis? He's 36.

80tothezone
10-12-2011, 08:59 PM
hey for what it's worth he's an 85 in madden

GuerillaBlack
10-12-2011, 10:03 PM
hey for what it's worth he's an 85 in madden

Well, playing with the Texans online just became more fun.

TheMatrix31
10-12-2011, 10:39 PM
Why would I care about Derrick Mason's age when he's only gonna be here for the rest of the season? And if he can still play, then who cares about his age, I'll want him back next year too.

DocBar
10-12-2011, 10:50 PM
I like this move. It could easily be a game changer for the rest of the season. Like or hate Mason, he's been very good for a very long time. Is he elite? Nope. Very few players are, or they wouldn't be elite. He IS a legitimate threat and will get his catches when targeted. In this offense, Schaub needs dependable over flash.
I would probably be pissed if Smith threw away draft picks to get a "name" receiver at this stage. IMHO, I doubt AJ is back til after the bye week, but what we have should suffice til then. After this week, our playoff run truly begins. A loss to the Ravens is no insult. losing to divisional foes and the rest of the weak schedule we have is. we should still end up 10-6 or 11-5. Mason will be a steadying influence during that time without the added pressure of a big trade thrown in.

gary
10-12-2011, 11:04 PM
Waddya mean two, and waddya mean when AJ gets back? We had three this past Sunday. Although fat lotta good it did us.I mean as receivers that does not mean Daniels or the other two solely wideouts is what I mean.

leebigeztx
10-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Moss dont play hard why get a lazy guy like him.
Owens has a blown achilies and just was hospitalized last thursday for some type of pill OD. SO NO ON BOTH

Say what u want about those guys, but they affect the coverage which is way more than anyone on this team could do without johnson. That's was the point to me this summer and has been for a while. When andre struggles or is out the lineup, the offense struggles big time. Why? They have no one who can beat a #1 corner or even a good #2 corner. The texans will see what happens minus johnson with guys who can't get seperation. That's why matt was hesistating and holding the ball. The raiders were limiting by press coverage to what routes the wr wuld run. They had no fear of a db getting burnt off the los or making a play. Btw, oakland has a terrible defense.

Dutchrudder
10-12-2011, 11:47 PM
Is anybody else worried about Mason's age? He's 37.

Our last couple of 7th round picks aren't even on the team this year. So no, I'm not worried about giving up a 7th for him.

leebigeztx
10-12-2011, 11:50 PM
In response to jj and his lack of progress or so, coaches find what guys ca do well and make them do that. If anyone watches the texans know jj isn't a precise route runner, but neither is robert meacham, mike wallace, or devery henderson, but they all can run. So what kind of route do u see them running? Go routes, post routes,and stop routes. They don't ask those guys to run the whole tree, yet they get production out of them. Why not just run jj on those kind of routes like they did with andre davis? In fact, why not bring davis back?

TejasTom
10-13-2011, 12:07 AM
I like what Derrick is saying.

I just want Schaub to throw him catchable passes and for Derrick to catch most of them.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 12:37 AM
I like what Derrick is saying.

I just want Schaub to throw him catchable passes and for Derrick to catch most of them.

I've been watching a lot of Derrick Mason highlights.... his production after initial contact is another thing that puts him ahead of both Walter & JJ

playa465
10-13-2011, 06:14 AM
In response to jj and his lack of progress or so, coaches find what guys ca do well and make them do that. If anyone watches the texans know jj isn't a precise route runner, but neither is robert meacham, mike wallace, or devery henderson, but they all can run. So what kind of route do u see them running? Go routes, post routes,and stop routes. They don't ask those guys to run the whole tree, yet they get production out of them. Why not just run jj on those kind of routes like they did with andre davis? In fact, why not bring davis back?

I agree but I don't know about Davis...JJ will never be a precise route runner. I would like to see them try some WR screens and more go routes with him though...either way we need more production from the WR position all around. I hope people don't get too giddy with Mason as he and Schaub have no chemistry yet and timing will be crucial.

silvrhand
10-13-2011, 08:19 AM
I agree but I don't know about Davis...JJ will never be a precise route runner. I would like to see them try some WR screens and more go routes with him though...either way we need more production from the WR position all around. I hope people don't get too giddy with Mason as he and Schaub have no chemistry yet and timing will be crucial.

If you can't run routes you don't belong in the NFL.

Rey
10-13-2011, 09:54 AM
The flaw with your logic is this:

In this offense, you frequently don't throw the ball to the open guy. You throw the ball to the guy who's GOING to be open. Matt drops back reading the defense and then throws to the open guy WHERE the open guy is supposed to be.

One problem with Jacoby is that he's lazy with his cuts and routes and he's frequently not where he's supposed to be. Matt throws the ball. Jacoby's about 5 yards deeper than he's supposed to be. Ball falls incomplete and Matt looks like he underthrew it.

JJ was supposed to be open almost twice as often as Walter and Anderson but he was in the wrong places.


The problem with that logic is that Jacoby isn't the only one who sees poor balls from Matt.

Matt throws quite a few bad balls and he has been average at best this season.

The offensive design and play-calling has been the best thing we have going now that Andre is out. Foster is close behind though.

And Matt is not throwing to spots on every play...All plays require some timing but all passing plays don't have timing routes. I just diagree with that part completely. In fact, Shammy rarely ever throws the ball before a reciever makes a cut...He almost always sees the guy open and then throws the ball.

Matt's overall ability level is game manager. On occasion he exceeds that. He's not out there making all these great throws, wowing the crowd. The play design gives him some good looks and whether or not Jacoby is cutting his route short or elongating it, Matt should be able to hit a moving target as a QB...He's not just back there throwing it to spots though.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 10:46 AM
The problem with that logic is that Jacoby isn't the only one who sees poor balls from Matt.

I just ignore anyone who breaks out the "Jacoby runs lazy routes" argument.

And Matt is not throwing to spots on every play...All plays require some timing but all passing plays don't have timing routes. I just diagree with that part completely. In fact, Shammy rarely ever throws the ball before a reciever makes a cut...He almost always sees the guy open and then throws the ball.

Which makes me wonder why everyone calls this a "timing" offense. If it is, Matt's doing it wrong. There are times when he throws the ball before the receiver cuts, but not often & too infrequent IMO to call it a timing system.

IMO if Matt could anticipate the cut, the offense would look even better & closer to truly elite.


Matt's overall ability level is game manager. On occasion he exceeds that. He's not out there making all these great throws, wowing the crowd. The play design gives him some good looks and whether or not Jacoby is cutting his route short or elongating it, Matt should be able to hit a moving target as a QB...He's not just back there throwing it to spots though.

My opinion of Matt's is slightly better than yours. I don't look at him as a game manager... I think he is above average & plays within himself, which usually works in our favor. His accuracy & rating numbers clearly put him way over a simple "manager" but he's also not a step or two below playmaker.

I think he's tough as nails & made some damn good plays on the final two drives of that Raider game, just not the last play.

The Pencil Neck
10-13-2011, 04:35 PM
I have no idea what offense you guys are watching. If you don't think that there's timing involved in this offense and you don't think Jacoby runs lazy routes, then there's really nothing more to say about it.

Texn4life
10-13-2011, 05:00 PM
I have no idea what offense you guys are watching. If you don't think that there's timing involved in this offense and you don't think Jacoby runs lazy routes, then there's really nothing more to say about it.

I don't know if I'd say "lazy" routes, but he definitely runs "sloppy" routes. There's no denying that in my opinion.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 06:11 PM
I have no idea what offense you guys are watching. If you don't think that there's timing involved in this offense and you don't think Jacoby runs lazy routes, then there's really nothing more to say about it.

He was open all day.

Even if you are correct & he made his move too early or too late, causing him to be nowhere near the ball, he was open.

You don't get open from an NFL CornerBack (unless his initials are Kareem Jackson or Jason Allen) by running lazy or sloppy routes.

It just don't work that way.

infantrycak
10-13-2011, 06:16 PM
He was open all day.

Even if you are correct & he made his move too early or too late, causing him to be nowhere near the ball, he was open.

You don't get open from an NFL CornerBack (unless his initials are Kareem Jackson or Jason Allen) by running lazy or sloppy routes.

It just don't work that way.

That's like saying you don't throw for 4770 yards and lead the NFL in passing without being an elite QB.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 06:21 PM
That's like saying you don't throw for 4770 yards and lead the NFL in passing without being an elite QB.

Not exactly, he still has to catch the ball & do something with it. I'm not alluding to either point.

In this instance, for this argument, I'm saying he wasn't running sloppy routes if he was getting open.

If you can run sloppy routes and get open at least 11 times a game, then what's the point of running tight routes.

Rey
10-13-2011, 06:37 PM
I have no idea what offense you guys are watching. If you don't think that there's timing involved in this offense and you don't think Jacoby runs lazy routes, then there's really nothing more to say about it.

I have no idea what kind of routes Jacoby runs.

1) I don't know exactly what he is supposed to be running or what the coaches want from him on any given play. 2) I go to half of the 8 home games and I don't/haven't paid enough attention to see how Jacoby is running routes


On the TV broadcast of away games and the home game s I don't go to (like this past one) it's very hard to see receivers and DB's.

As far as the timing aspect, when I read your initial post about this you seemed to be suggesting that Matt is sitting back throwing to spots where receivers are supposed to be and I disagree with that. There is a differnce between timing/rythm within an offense and a timing route which would be thrown to a spot before the receiver actually makes a break for the ball.

When you are running routes during a game it is hard to run your routes exactly right every time. There are guys pushing and shoving you...pulling on you and there are sometimes bodies in the way....That's why a guy like AJ is so good because of his strength...It's hard for corners to knock him off of the path that he is trying to run plus he has the quickness and speed (plus he's smart)...Whereas guys like Jacoby have to rely almost solely on his smarts and quickness/speed...

Good route running has very little to do with the QB throwing balls in the dirt. Good route running is recognizing the coverage, knowing when to run behind a defender in a zone or in front of him...Knowing when to sit in a zone...Recognizing when you are hot...Making sharp cuts so it makes it harder for the defender to keep up...Not running right on the sideline so you give your QB room to make a throw...taking good angles so you put the defense at a disadvantage...ect...

If a reciever is open for a catch and the QB short arms it and skips it off the ground or throws it too high or too wide that is almost always on the QB. If a guy is open...He's open...Doesn't really matter if his route was ugly or if the defender fell down...Open is open...

An example of a timing route would be like a 10 yard out...The reciever and QB have to have great timing because the QB is going to throw the ball before the cut is made...probably as soon as hit back foot hits on whatever kind of drop he's doing...

That's not what was happening this past Sunday. Or really any of the previous Sunday's when Matt threw wonky looking throws.

He just has to play better.

And I'm not excusing Jacoby by any means. I don't think he's all that. But I do think that there are QB's out there that could make Jones a viable option..especially as a 3rd WR.

The Pencil Neck
10-13-2011, 07:04 PM
He was open all day.

Even if you are correct & he made his move too early or too late, causing him to be nowhere near the ball, he was open.

You don't get open from an NFL CornerBack (unless his initials are Kareem Jackson or Jason Allen) by running lazy or sloppy routes.

It just don't work that way.

Sure it does. That's how a lot of interceptions happen.

The WR runs to the wrong place and the DB runs to the ball.

Rey
10-13-2011, 07:11 PM
Sure it does. That's how a lot of interceptions happen.

The WR runs to the wrong place and the DB runs to the ball.

That's called a miscommunication...or a fu#& up....

Running to the "wrong" place is not the same thing as running sloppy routes...

An example of a sloppy route would be rounding off your cuts when you should be doing it sharply, but you are still going in the direction of where the route is designed to go...

Texn4life
10-13-2011, 07:15 PM
Not exactly, he still has to catch the ball & do something with it. I'm not alluding to either point.

In this instance, for this argument, I'm saying he wasn't running sloppy routes if he was getting open.

If you can run sloppy routes and get open at least 11 times a game, then what's the point of running tight routes.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what league you've been watching. There are plenty of sloppy route runners who get open. Matt Jones and Randy Moss are 2 names that just come to mind off the top of my head. The problem with guys who run "sloppy" routes is Quarterbacks are creatures of habit. They depend on guys coming out of their breaks sharp and not taking 3 or 4 steps to break down. Jacoby has a tendency to round off his breaks which throws the timing off.

Getting open has nothing to do with running sharp routes. I've seen Jacoby in practice quite a bit the past couple of years and in every game and I think its fair to say he doesn't run crisp routes. I think there is a problem that Matt and Jacoby haven't developed a chemistry over 4 years. Matt has shown that chemistry with Walter, Andre, Owen, and Dreessen. So the common denominator is Matt in this equation. He's shown a consistent ability to deliver the ball to guys. You can't tell me that its Matt's fault that he completes passes on a regular basis to everyone else, but just throws bad passes to JJ. The guy runs sloppy routes. He wasn't a good route runner coming out of Lane and the coaching staff knew that because he was extremely raw. I was in Jacoby's corner hoping he would develop, but its just not happening.

Rey
10-13-2011, 07:25 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what league you've been watching. There are plenty of sloppy route runners who get open. Matt Jones and Randy Moss are 2 names that just come to mind off the top of my head. The problem with guys who run "sloppy" routes is Quarterbacks are creatures of habit. They depend on guys coming out of their breaks sharp and not taking 3 or 4 steps to break down. Jacoby has a tendency to round off his breaks which throws the timing off.


Seems like everyone is trying to justify Matt sucking.

Rounding off your cuts is not going to screw up the timing of a route to the point where the receiver is 5-7 yards off from where the QB expects thus forcing him to throw the ball into the dirt.

But besides that, Matt has not been lights out in any game this season. He's played more on the "meh/poor" side than the "daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!" side....

Having Jacoby in there instead of Andre just accentuated that...

Getting open has nothing to do with running sharp routes.

Ummmmm...yes it does...

It's a lot harder for a defender to stay with a guy making sharp cuts than it is for a guy rounding everything off...

Try holding a guy with good agility making sharp cuts...Then tell that same person to make rounded cuts and you pretty much factor out their great agility.

Texn4life
10-13-2011, 07:32 PM
Seems like everyone is trying to justify Matt sucking.

Rounding off your cuts is not going to screw up the timing of a route to the point where the receiver is 5-7 yards off from where the QB expects thus forcing him to throw the ball into the dirt.

But besides that, Matt has not been lights out in any game this season. He's played more on the "meh/poor" side than the "daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!" side....

Having Jacoby in there instead of Andre just accentuated that...



Ummmmm...yes it does...

It's a lot harder for a defender to stay with a guy making sharp cuts than it is for a guy rounding everything off...

Try holding a guy with good agility making sharp cuts...Then tell that same person to make rounded cuts and you pretty much factor out their great agility.

I just gave you 2 examples of guys who are known for being average to bad route runners who can get open. If you have the athletic ability that Jacoby has you can still get open because you don't have to be the greatest of route runners. But that doesn't mean that you're doing your Quarterback any favors if you're not where you're supposed to be.

I'm not making excuses for Matt making bad passes, but I call a spade a spade. Jacoby has never been known for a good route runner and if just stuck out like a sore thumb the other day. On one particular play he run a deep out cut and came out of his break so slow that no Quarterback would be able to accurately deliver the ball to a guy running his route consistently like that.

Carr Bombed
10-13-2011, 07:46 PM
Some people need to wake up. Jacoby Jones is nothing more than a poor man's Ashley Lelie (yeah, remember that name?) who ALSO played in this system and also played under Kubiak...and he was out of the league pretty quickly. (which is where Jacoby is about to find himself if he doesn't start reaching that "great potential"). The guy is NOT a playmaker...he's a teaser, just like Lelie was and he's a immature bonehead, just like Lelie was. At least Lelie had slightly better hands and receiving skills.

Seriously how can anybody blame Schaub for Jacoby's shortcomings is beyond me. Just about EVERYBODY gets off in this offense, but it's Schaub's fault that Jacoby can't catch a break. No, it's Jacoby's fault that he can't catch ANYTHING, let alone a break, because the dude flat out can't break off his routes. He isn't dedicated and his football I.Q./maturation is still the same that it was when he first entered the league...just like Ashley Lelie..who was more talented and productive than Jacoby.

Why people are still believing in this guy is beyond me. Let him go, he is what he is. He's been in the league for 5 seasons now so we can't even talk about "potential" or "upside" anymore..all we can talk about is ACTUAL PRODUCTION and he sucks in that department. He wasn't drafted #1 ovrl, but he's becoming the David Carr of WRs here with the amount of absurd excuses made up for him. Just replace David Carr's Oline with Matt Schaub or Kevin Walter starting. :rolleyes:

srrono
10-13-2011, 07:49 PM
Kub said on 610am Mason will play sunday

Rey
10-13-2011, 07:50 PM
I just gave you 2 examples of guys who are known for being average to bad route runners who can get open. If you have the athletic ability that Jacoby has you can still get open because you don't have to be the greatest of route runners. But that doesn't mean that you're doing your Quarterback any favors if you're not where you're supposed to be.

Not being where you are supposed to be is a vague phrase IMO.

That doesn't always mean your routes are sloppy...It could mean you just don't know what to do..

You can run a crisp, incorrect route...

I've seen Matt throw the ball in the dirt when he was throwing to Dre...I've seen him throw wonky passes to more guys than Jacoby...

Matt has been playing at a level lower than what I expect out of him in pretty much every game. Even the first game against the Colts, Matt wasn't all that...

The defense has stepped their game up...They've put our offense in some great positions and they've failed to yield results. There have been opprotunites there....

We can talk about the addition of Mason...Jacoby running bad routes, but if Matt doesn't play better none of it matters IMO.

Texn4life
10-13-2011, 08:01 PM
Not being where you are supposed to be is a vague phrase IMO.

That doesn't always mean your routes are sloppy...It could mean you just don't know what to do..

You can run a crisp, incorrect route...

I've seen Matt throw the ball in the dirt when he was throwing to Dre...I've seen him throw wonky passes to more guys than Jacoby...

Matt has been playing at a level lower than what I expect out of him in pretty much every game. Even the first game against the Colts, Matt wasn't all that...

The defense has stepped their game up...They've put our offense in some great positions and they've failed to yield results. There have been opprotunites there....

We can talk about the addition of Mason...Jacoby running bad routes, but if Matt doesn't play better none of it matters IMO.

I agree that Matt has to play better so we're in agreement on that. I haven't once brought up the amount of incomplete passes thrown to Jacoby. I've watched him closely since we drafted him, and me saying he's a sloppy route runner is based on years of watching him play. I don't have video clips to provide, but just watch him closely for the rest of the season assuming he gets a lot of snaps at the wideout position. Anyone who says he's a good route runner is delusional in my personal opinion.

And when I say a receiver isn't where they're supposed to be when it comes to Jacoby I mean specifically him coming out of his breaks sharp. He's notorious for chopping up his steps to come out of breaks. He's longer than most receivers so you expect it a little, but he's still below average in this area.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 08:42 PM
I think there is a problem that Matt and Jacoby haven't developed a chemistry over 4 years. Matt has shown that chemistry with Walter, Andre, Owen, and Dreessen. So the common denominator is Matt in this equation. He's shown a consistent ability to deliver the ball to guys. You can't tell me that its Matt's fault that he completes passes on a regular basis to everyone else, but just throws bad passes to JJ.

I'm not alluding to anything concerning the quality of Schaub's play. My only argument is that Jacoby was getting open. Matt threw the ball at him 11 times. He didn't throw the ball to Kevin Walter, or Owen Daniels, or even his little safety valve David Anderson 11 times, because they couldn't get open.

When they did get open they caught the ball. & if it were a chemistry thing, Matt would not be throwing it to Jacoby 11 times if there is no chemistry.

Just like everyone else here, I've watched Jacoby since he's been here. & I've never noticed his routes were so sloppy that JJ has no chance to catch the ball.

As much as all of you are better evaluators of talent, I do not believe anyone would sign JJ to $10 million, $3 million guaranteed, if he's been running routes as sloppy as what you guys suggest.

Balls would hit him in his hands, his chest, his helmet.. but when he did catch the ball, he turned it up field & and made a play. Those were his issues, not his route running.

I was in Jacoby's corner hoping he would develop, but its just not happening.

My argument here, is that I just don't know. 2009, Jacoby looked like he was "on the right track" 2010, something was happening that I couldn't put my finger on.... not just with Jacoby, but with the offense.

Matt Schaub threw the ball 51 times, 17 targets to WR.. 9-11 of those were to Jacoby Jones...

something is not right with the passing game, & Jacoby is only a small part of it.

Texan_Bill
10-13-2011, 08:55 PM
You worried about Ray Lewis? He's 36.

Dunno.. Derrick Mason is a 5'-10" under 200lbs. receiver who takes shots regularly. Ray Lewis is a 6'-2", 250lbs. LB that delivers shots regularly...

It's a difference.

Texn4life
10-13-2011, 08:59 PM
I'm not alluding to anything concerning the quality of Schaub's play. My only argument is that Jacoby was getting open. Matt threw the ball at him 11 times. He didn't throw the ball to Kevin Walter, or Owen Daniels, or even his little safety valve David Anderson 11 times, because they couldn't get open.

When they did get open they caught the ball. & if it were a chemistry thing, Matt would not be throwing it to Jacoby 11 times if there is no chemistry.

Just like everyone else here, I've watched Jacoby since he's been here. & I've never noticed his routes were so sloppy that JJ has no chance to catch the ball.

As much as all of you are better evaluators of talent, I do not believe anyone would sign JJ to $10 million, $3 million guaranteed, if he's been running routes as sloppy as what you guys suggest.

Balls would hit him in his hands, his chest, his helmet.. but when he did catch the ball, he turned it up field & and made a play. Those were his issues, not his route running.


My argument here, is that I just don't know. 2009, Jacoby looked like he was "on the right track" 2010, something was happening that I couldn't put my finger on.... not just with Jacoby, but with the offense.

Matt Schaub threw the ball 51 times, 17 targets to WR.. 9-11 of those were to Jacoby Jones...

something is not right with the passing game, & Jacoby is only a small part of it.

We can go back and forth on this all day like we have, but at this point we're not going to see eye to eye. I could continue to provide reasons as to why I don't agree, but I'll just leave it here and let Jacoby's play do the talking. Hopefully Mason can be what Jacoby isn't since this thread started about him. As far as guys getting big contracts, please don't make me give examples of guys getting big money who didn't deserve it. We don't even want to go there. The Texans haven't exactly been geniuses when it comes to personnel decisions.

gary
10-13-2011, 09:18 PM
Mason has 937 receptions in his career I would love to see Shaub helps him get 1,000 if not this year than next.

BullNation4Life
10-13-2011, 09:24 PM
Just read on NFL Network Denver is in talks to trade Brandon LLoyd, didn't say who...

Gonna tell me the Texans couldn't have gotten Lloyd instead of a 37 year old Mason?

Would have been a much, much better pick up in the fact Lloyd would be around for a few year, Mason will almost certainly be gone after this season...

gary
10-13-2011, 09:33 PM
What is the big deal? He did not stink last year and is probably just a rental unless he plays great.

Texn4life
10-13-2011, 09:34 PM
Just read on NFL Network Denver is in talks to trade Brandon LLoyd, didn't say who...

Gonna tell me the Texans couldn't have gotten Lloyd instead of a 37 year old Mason?

Would have been a much, much better pick up in the fact Lloyd would be around for a few year, Mason will almost certainly be gone after this season...


The Broncos are probably wanting at least a 3rd round pick for Lloyd especially with the season he had last year. I'd prefer Lloyd over Mason too, but no one knows right now what it will take to get him.

Texan_Bill
10-13-2011, 09:35 PM
Just read on NFL Network Denver is in talks to trade Brandon LLoyd, didn't say who...

Gonna tell me the Texans couldn't have gotten Lloyd instead of a 37 year old Mason?

Would have been a much, much better pick up in the fact Lloyd would be around for a few year, Mason will almost certainly be gone after this season...

:gun:

Brandon Lloyd fancies himself a #1 receiver. You do realize that AJ will be back, right? How much would you be willing to give up for Lloyd??? Much more than a conditional 7th round pick would've been asinine!! Is denver willing to give up Lloyd for a conditional 7th rounder? I think not!



As SEC Guy would say........ "NEXT?"

jaayteetx
10-13-2011, 09:38 PM
:gun:

Brandon Lloyd fancies himself a #1 receiver. You do realize that AJ will be back, right? How much would you be willing to give up for Lloyd??? Much more than a conditional 7th round pick would've been asinine!! Is denver willing to give up Lloyd for a conditional 7th rounder? I think not!



As SEC Guy would say........ "NEXT?"

I think Lloyd would fancy himself damn lucky to be opposite AJ and play along just fine, thank you. Texans prob not willing to give up what Denver would want, I imagine that would be the major sticking point.

NitroGSXR
10-13-2011, 09:42 PM
Just read on NFL Network Denver is in talks to trade Brandon LLoyd, didn't say who...

Gonna tell me the Texans couldn't have gotten Lloyd instead of a 37 year old Mason?

Would have been a much, much better pick up in the fact Lloyd would be around for a few year, Mason will almost certainly be gone after this season...

Brandon Lloyd? Man... forget Brandon Lloyd and the gazillion RBs we tried out today. What I want to know is when are we going to tryout a DE/OLB to replace Mario. Yeah yeah I know about Bulman...

gary
10-13-2011, 09:48 PM
Mason has had an overrated Sanchez throwing to him so far this season but with a much better quarterback like Schaub he should regain his fire to play once again.

BullNation4Life
10-13-2011, 10:11 PM
The Broncos are probably wanting at least a 3rd round pick for Lloyd especially with the season he had last year. I'd prefer Lloyd over Mason too, but no one knows right now what it will take to get him.

between 3rd-5th round pick for a WR that is 7 years younger, I'd give a 3rd round pick for a WR like Lloyd...

BullNation4Life
10-13-2011, 10:13 PM
Brandon Lloyd? Man... forget Brandon Lloyd and the gazillion RBs we tried out today. What I want to know is when are we going to tryout a DE/OLB to replace Mario. Yeah yeah I know about Bulman...

COuld have had Aaron Curry for a 7th this year and conditional 5th next year, that's what the Raiders paid for him....

BullNation4Life
10-13-2011, 10:16 PM
:gun:

Brandon Lloyd fancies himself a #1 receiver. You do realize that AJ will be back, right? How much would you be willing to give up for Lloyd??? Much more than a conditional 7th round pick would've been asinine!! Is denver willing to give up Lloyd for a conditional 7th rounder? I think not!



As SEC Guy would say........ "NEXT?"

Yeah you continue to shoot yourself in the head while the Texans continue to shoot themselves in the foot. Could have had a much younger and very talented WR for the next 3-4 years for a dunno 3rd, or 4th, or even a 5th round pick. Could have locked up the #2 spot until you draft a rookie and he is ready. Lloyd would gotten plenty of balls from Schaub in this offense. Can't double both AJ and Lloyd, so they double AJ.

To think Lloyd wouldn't have flourished in this system is asinine...

Instead they get a 37 year old band aide that will be gone at the end of this year. Yeah a 7th round pick, but still a band aide AND THEY STILL HAVE JACOBY JONES on the roster. Could have gotten Mason AND Lloyd and cut Jones ass today...

pirbroke
10-13-2011, 10:17 PM
Just read about Mason being drafted by the Houston Oilers, that is way cool, hope his career ends as well as it started in Houston. The last remaining Oiler, just wow.

The Pencil Neck
10-13-2011, 10:17 PM
That's called a miscommunication...or a fu#& up....

Running to the "wrong" place is not the same thing as running sloppy routes...

An example of a sloppy route would be rounding off your cuts when you should be doing it sharply, but you are still going in the direction of where the route is designed to go...

Exactly. And if you round it too much, you end up at the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's what I'm saying he did at least once. He made some other mistakes like that, too.

MEGA SWATT
10-13-2011, 10:19 PM
Just read about Mason being drafted by the Houston Oilers, that is way cool, hope his career ends as well as it started in Houston. The last remaining Oiler, just wow.

Cool :elmo:

The Pencil Neck
10-13-2011, 10:25 PM
I'm not alluding to anything concerning the quality of Schaub's play. My only argument is that Jacoby was getting open. Matt threw the ball at him 11 times. He didn't throw the ball to Kevin Walter, or Owen Daniels, or even his little safety valve David Anderson 11 times, because they couldn't get open.

<snip>

something is not right with the passing game, & Jacoby is only a small part of it.

Here's the way I saw it and the way I understand it... if you understand it some other way, then OK. We'll have to agree to disagree.

But Matt drops back and he reads the coverage. As he's dropping back, Jacoby is running down the field. After looking at the coverage, Matt deduces which receiver should be open and, knowing the routes each receiver is supposed to be running, he throws it to the location where that receiver is supposed to be. Matt throws the ball before the player is "open". He throws it before the player has made their final cut. He doesn't wait for them to get open and then throw it to them, he throws it to where they're supposed to be open.

So, when Jacoby loops out of an out route late instead of planting his foot and making a sharp cut, Jacoby is "open" but he's not in the right place and the ball falls to the ground. If Jacoby takes too long faking a post route before heading out to the corner, the ball falls to the ground.

Matt didn't make every throw he should have. I"m not saying that. But Jacoby ran incorrect routes and was in the wrong place on at least 3 routes that I saw and probably more than that.

Carr Bombed
10-13-2011, 10:27 PM
If we could fit him in within the cap and still resign Foster, I'd pull the trigger. We're in win now mode. It's time to start pulling the trigger.

BullNation4Life
10-13-2011, 10:28 PM
Here's the way I saw it and the way I understand it... if you understand it some other way, then OK. We'll have to agree to disagree.

But Matt drops back and he reads the coverage. As he's dropping back, Jacoby is running down the field. After looking at the coverage, Matt deduces which receiver should be open and, knowing the routes each receiver is supposed to be running, he throws it to the location where that receiver is supposed to be. Matt throws the ball before the player is "open". He throws it before the player has made their final cut. He doesn't wait for them to get open and then throw it to them, he throws it to where they're supposed to be open.

So, when Jacoby loops out of an out route late instead of planting his foot and making a sharp cut, Jacoby is "open" but he's not in the right place and the ball falls to the ground. If Jacoby takes too long faking a post route before heading out to the corner, the ball falls to the ground.

Matt didn't make every throw he should have. I"m not saying that. But Jacoby ran incorrect routes and was in the wrong place on at least 3 routes that I saw and probably more than that.

They showed this on the AFC Playbook tonight. Jones rounded off several routes where had he broke off crisp and straight, would have met the ball on the sideline, instead the ball looked under thrown by about 2 yards....

The Pencil Neck
10-13-2011, 10:30 PM
They showed this on the AFC Playbook tonight. Jones rounded off several routes where had he broke off crisp and straight, would have met the ball on the sideline, instead the ball looked under thrown by about 2 yards....

Damn. If AFC Playbook agrees with me, then I have to be wrong.

:toropalm:

infantrycak
10-13-2011, 10:33 PM
between 3rd-5th round pick for a WR that is 7 years younger, I'd give a 3rd round pick for a WR like Lloyd...

Not particular to you but "a WR like Lloyd" is a comment which seems echoed by others. You mean a WR who in 9 years has 1 season over 750 yds? Heck Walter has topped 750 twice (actually 800 and missed 900 by 1 yard) in that time frame and didn't play the first two years. In the last 11 years Mason has had 0 seasons with less than 750 yards.

NitroGSXR
10-13-2011, 10:35 PM
Not particular to you but "a WR like Lloyd" is a comment which seems echoed by others. You mean a WR who in 9 years has 1 season over 750 yds? Heck Walter has topped 750 twice (actually 800 and missed 900 by 1 yard) in that time frame and didn't play the first two years. In the last 11 years Mason has had 0 seasons with less than 750 yards.

Burn.

DexmanC
10-13-2011, 10:41 PM
Just read about Mason being drafted by the Houston Oilers, that is way cool, hope his career ends as well as it started in Houston. The last remaining Oiler, just wow.

Isn't this the SAME Derrick Mason who sent the Titans/Oilers to the
Superbowl by catching a pass from Frank Wycheck on the "Music
City Miracle" play? Dang, that was a long time ago!

Carr Bombed
10-13-2011, 10:42 PM
Not particular to you but "a WR like Lloyd" is a comment which seems echoed by others. You mean a WR who in 9 years has 1 season over 750 yds? Heck Walter has topped 750 twice (actually 800 and missed 900 by 1 yard) in that time frame and didn't play the first two years. In the last 11 years Mason has had 0 seasons with less than 750 yards.

No offense, but Brandon Lloyd never got a shot in San Fran...he's a late bloomer. He's a very good receiver. The time that these two players have played is irrelevant. All anybody has to do is watch Lloyd play to know he's a better receiver.

gary
10-13-2011, 10:49 PM
I hope someone shows this thread to Mason so he shows all of us off.

infantrycak
10-13-2011, 11:00 PM
No offense, but Brandon Lloyd never got a shot in San Fran...he's a late bloomer. He's a very good receiver. The time that these two players have played is irrelevant. All anybody has to do is watch Lloyd play to know he's a better receiver.

Watch? OK. I have seen one good (or exceptional in a bad way) year from Lloyd. I have watched a longer period than the Texans have been in existence from Mason all of which except one year has been at a higher level than Lloyd.

What makes Lloyd a "late bloomer" and JJ someone who should be given up on?

Texans_Chick
10-13-2011, 11:05 PM
Watch? OK. I have seen one good (and exceptional in a bad way) year from Lloyd. I have watched a longer period than the Texans have been in existence from Mason all of which except one year has been at a higher level than Lloyd.

Numbers prove your point to some degree. Mason has had remarkable years given some of the QBing he was working with. According to FO, he had the highest catch rate of the Jets at 59% (which is high given that Sanchez was throwing to him, though his efficiency rate is down this year).

Check out his FO page: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/16440/derrick-mason Nice comparable players.

Texans need some dependable hands that they don't need to babysit. Mason has to be happy that he is on an offense that isn't a piece of poop. Win-win. Texans aren't out much to get him.

GP
10-13-2011, 11:17 PM
Mason has no Texans-related baggage on him.

He's not coming into the sad-sack Texans team hanging his head in the locker room and licking wounds. He's coming in with a swagger, having been on the Ravens and Titans when they were hitting their stride.

For that, he means a lot for this Sunday. Several important catches on Sunday, whether it be moving the chains on 3rd down or even scoring a TD on some route that anybody not named Andre Johnson might have been tackled for zero YAC, will inspire the team. It will boost Schaub, most definitely.

I needed some morphine to get to this Sunday's game. If anything, it gives me something to watch--Something new, and something "good" as it pertains to Mason's past as a competent WR. I'm excited.

gary
10-13-2011, 11:19 PM
Derrick is a savoy veteran to have on any team and I hope he ends his career right here where he started it.

TexanAggie89
10-13-2011, 11:19 PM
Isn't this the SAME Derrick Mason who sent the Titans/Oilers to the
Superbowl by catching a pass from Frank Wycheck on the "Music
City Miracle" play? Dang, that was a long time ago!

Lol You must be thinking of Kevin Dyson:cowboy1:

Carr Bombed
10-13-2011, 11:20 PM
Watch? OK. I have seen one good (or exceptional in a bad way) year from Lloyd. I have watched a longer period than the Texans have been in existence from Mason all of which except one year has been at a higher level than Lloyd.

What makes Lloyd a "late bloomer" and JJ someone who should be given up on?

Umm, because Lloyd never played with a real legit QB until he got to Kyle Orton? Who isn't exactly Matt Schaub.


LOL, are you seriously comparing a 37 year old Mason to the current Brandon Lloyd? The guy has come into his own and in a down year where Denver's QB situation is in absolute turmoil he's still on pace for 60 catches and 900 yards. Sorry, but he is a damn good receiver and is better than Kevin Walter and Derek Mason...and I like Both players and REALLY like the signing of Mason. I'm just stating facts here. Brandon Lloyd is a BETTER player.

Plus he's very good insurance incase A.J. goes down.

TejasTom
10-13-2011, 11:26 PM
My guess is Kubes trys to get Mason matched up on Pollard.

Carr Bombed
10-13-2011, 11:52 PM
My guess is Kubes trys to get Mason matched up on Pollard.

I'm guessing Dreessen. He'll be expecting Owens and Dreeseen with get him. he couldn't cover a TE to save his life last season. Having said that, it's going to be a physical game. I'm glad we have Tate back. I'm scared to face Leach though, I never wanted to see my team on the other side of that.

BullNation4Life
10-13-2011, 11:55 PM
Damn. If AFC Playbook agrees with me, then I have to be wrong.

:toropalm:

Balldinger no less....

BullNation4Life
10-14-2011, 12:10 AM
Not particular to you but "a WR like Lloyd" is a comment which seems echoed by others. You mean a WR who in 9 years has 1 season over 750 yds? Heck Walter has topped 750 twice (actually 800 and missed 900 by 1 yard) in that time frame and didn't play the first two years. In the last 11 years Mason has had 0 seasons with less than 750 yards.

Understandable but let us also look at who had the better QB during their career...

Derrick Mason - McNair, Boller(yuk), Flacco, Sanchez (for 5 gms)

Brandon Lloyd - Garcia, Rattay, Smith, Brunell(end of his career), Cutler (1 yr), Orton

Who has had the better chance to succeed in their career according to who was throwing the ball and the team they played on? When Lloyd finally got to a team with a semi-competent QB, he put up pretty good numbers.

All I am saying is Lloyd is not a stop gap or band aid as Mason is, being Mason is 37 yrs old. If you are gonna make a trade to better your team, make one for a player that is going to help for a few years not just 1...

steelbtexan
10-14-2011, 12:25 AM
Umm, because Lloyd never played with a real legit QB until he got to Kyle Orton? Who isn't exactly Matt Schaub.


LOL, are you seriously comparing a 37 year old Mason to the current Brandon Lloyd? The guy has come into his own and in a down year where Denver's QB situation is in absolute turmoil he's still on pace for 60 catches and 900 yards. Sorry, but he is a damn good receiver and is better than Kevin Walter and Derek Mason...and I like Both players and REALLY like the signing of Mason. I'm just stating facts here. Brandon Lloyd is a BETTER player.

Plus he's very good insurance incase A.J. goes down.

Remeber when alot of fas didn't want to trade a 3rd rd pick for Carolinas Steve Smith. Because he was 32 yrs old and they were worried about how he would fit in with the Texans?

Wonder how those fans would feel about him if he was the Texans WR2 now. These same fans would probably be against signing Lloyd. Lloyd is good and I'm for making the trade. But Lloyd cant hold a candle to Smith.

Texn4life
10-14-2011, 12:28 AM
Understandable but let us also look at who had the better QB during their career...

Derrick Mason - McNair, Boller(yuk), Flacco, Sanchez (for 5 gms)

Brandon Lloyd - Garcia, Rattay, Smith, Brunell(end of his career), Cutler (1 yr), Orton

Who has had the better chance to succeed in their career according to who was throwing the ball and the team they played on? When Lloyd finally got to a team with a semi-competent QB, he put up pretty good numbers.

All I am saying is Lloyd is not a stop gap or band aid as Mason is, being Mason is 37 yrs old. If you are gonna make a trade to better your team, make one for a player that is going to help for a few years not just 1...

Well the 49ers acquired Deion Sanders for 1 year and it worked out pretty well for them. Not comparing Primetime to Mason, but just saying that its not bad to get a player for a year if he improves your team.

In saying that, I would've rather had Lloyd but I'm more than happy with having Mason.

BullNation4Life
10-14-2011, 12:34 AM
Well the 49ers acquired Deion Sanders for 1 year and it worked out pretty well for them. Not comparing Primetime to Mason, but just saying that its not bad to get a player for a year if he improves your team.

In saying that, I would've rather had Lloyd but I'm more than happy with having Mason.

Come on, that 49er team would have won with or without Sanders that year, plus Deion was in his prime, no pun intended. Derrick Mason is 37 years old and has one foot out the retirement door and the other on a banana peel...

that is comparing grapes to mangos....


ok fine then get greedy, Texans realistically could have traded for BOTH Mason and Lloyd. So what sounds better?

AJ
Lloyd
Mason
Walter
Jones
(^^^^looks like Green Bays WRs core)

OR

AJ
Mason
Walter
Jones

(^^^^ looks like poo)

Texn4life
10-14-2011, 12:41 AM
Come on, that 49er team would have won with or without Sanders that year, plus Deion was in his prime, no pun intended. Derrick Mason is 37 years old and has one foot out the retirement door and the other on a banana peel...

that is comparing grapes to mangos....


ok fine then get greedy, Texans realistically could have traded for BOTH Mason and Lloyd. So what sounds better?

AJ
Lloyd
Mason
Walter
Jones

OR

AJ
Mason
Walter
Jones

I'm just saying there was an example of player who was acquired for a year who helped them win a Super Bowl. And they don't win the Super Bowl that year without Deion. They would have lost against the Cowboys in the NFC championship game. I see the point you were making, but a 1 year acquisition isn't always a bad thing like you said. You also have to keep in mind that Lloyd is a free agent after this year. What happens if you throw Denver a 3rd or 4th round pick and he gets hurt? You've basically wasted a valuable draft pick. And then what happens if he comes and plays well? You're going to have to pay him, Arian, and Mario. So its more to it than just having a guy come in a help us for a few more years.

And if any receiving core than includes AJ looks like poo then it must be the nicest piece of poo in the world. I'd love to have both guys, but we don't. We have Mason.

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 08:11 AM
Remeber when alot of fas didn't want to trade a 3rd rd pick for Carolinas Steve Smith. Because he was 32 yrs old and they were worried about how he would fit in with the Texans?

Wonder how those fans would feel about him if he was the Texans WR2 now. These same fans would probably be against signing Lloyd. Lloyd is good and I'm for making the trade. But Lloyd cant hold a candle to Smith.

I wanted Steve Smith for a third.

But, I don't know what would happen with Steve Smith here, honestly. It's nice to think he would have the same success he is having in Carolina, but Cam Newton & Matt Schaub are totally different QBs.

Not a knock on Matt, but Steve Smith is mainly a speed guy. Matt's not strong enough to get the ball out in front of Steve. Many of the big plays to Smith are either Cam extending plays, throwing off his back foot, or way out of ahead of Steve where he can go get it.

Brandon Lloyd vs Derrick Mason... Lloyd for a third vs Mason for a 7th... who the hell knows. If the Texans had that laid out in front of them & had to chose... I'd probably go with Lloyd & a conditional 3rd. But we don't know those choices were available at the time.

The Texans had a bad weekend & Rick Smith probably had the crap beat out of him Sunday night, with the direction to get Kubiak some talent. May have been a little knee jerk that he went & got Mason, & is now kicking himself that he didn't wait. McNair probably tore him a new one as well. We don't know.

At this stage in their career, I can see Lloyd as a possible solution to the missing Aj... Mason, not so much. But we're still much better off with Mason than we were without... no question.

Texan_Bill
10-14-2011, 08:33 AM
I think Lloyd would fancy himself damn lucky to be opposite AJ and play along just fine, thank you. Texans prob not willing to give up what Denver would want, I imagine that would be the major sticking point.

I think you underestimate the power of ego!

NitroGSXR
10-14-2011, 08:47 AM
I think you underestimate the power of ego!

I think its more about money than ego. A #1 makes a lot more money than a #2.

Texan_Bill
10-14-2011, 08:51 AM
I think its more about money than ego. A #1 makes a lot more money than a #2.

to me $ = ego for these overpaid clowns. :pirate:

NitroGSXR
10-14-2011, 08:58 AM
A lot of folks keep saying that Mason's only going to be here this year. Didn't he sign a 2 year contract for 1.3 million a couple months ago. I have no reason to believe that he won't play next year. He's too cheap to be a cap casualty.

ArlingtonTexan
10-14-2011, 10:16 AM
A lot of folks keep saying that Mason's only going to be here this year. Didn't he sign a 2 year contract for 1.3 million a couple months ago. I have no reason to believe that he won't play next year. He's too cheap to be a cap casualty.

I think a part of it is that at his age, he ( or Mrs Mason) could wake and want to retire.

NitroGSXR
10-14-2011, 10:24 AM
I think a part of it is that at his age, he ( or Mrs Mason) could wake and want to retire.

Oh sure. Its just that folks are making it into a certain one year deal which simply isn't true.

steelbtexan
10-14-2011, 10:35 AM
I wanted Steve Smith for a third.

But, I don't know what would happen with Steve Smith here, honestly. It's nice to think he would have the same success he is having in Carolina, but Cam Newton & Matt Schaub are totally different QBs.

Not a knock on Matt, but Steve Smith is mainly a speed guy. Matt's not strong enough to get the ball out in front of Steve. Many of the big plays to Smith are either Cam extending plays, throwing off his back foot, or way out of ahead of Steve where he can go get it.

Brandon Lloyd vs Derrick Mason... Lloyd for a third vs Mason for a 7th... who the hell knows. If the Texans had that laid out in front of them & had to chose... I'd probably go with Lloyd & a conditional 3rd. But we don't know those choices were available at the time.

The Texans had a bad weekend & Rick Smith probably had the crap beat out of him Sunday night, with the direction to get Kubiak some talent. May have been a little knee jerk that he went & got Mason, & is now kicking himself that he didn't wait. McNair probably tore him a new one as well. We don't know.

At this stage in their career, I can see Lloyd as a possible solution to the missing Aj... Mason, not so much. But we're still much better off with Mason than we were without... no question.

Tatally agree with you on this post and the conditional 3rd thing.

Disagree with you on the Steve Smith thing, he's a complete WR. Smith can go deep, catch balls over the middle and is great on WR screens. He's one of the top 10-15 WR's in the NFL. IMHO Smith just needed a QB to get him the ball. (Newton can do this) For gods sake Smith was a pro bowl WR with DelHomme as his QB. That tells you how good Smith is.

infantrycak
10-14-2011, 11:04 AM
For the record I am in favor of trading for Lloyd if a reasonable conditional draft pick trade can be made IF a longer term contract can be worked out. I don't want to give up a 3rd on a one year player or if that player will be unhappy not being the #1 WR. Any WR coming to Houston has to understand he will not be the #1. Mason was a good trade and what was available at the time. It isn't one or the other or one vs. the other.

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 11:10 AM
Disagree with you on the Steve Smith thing, he's a complete WR. Smith can go deep, catch balls over the middle and is great on WR screens. He's one of the top 10-15 WR's in the NFL. IMHO Smith just needed a QB to get him the ball. (Newton can do this) For gods sake Smith was a pro bowl WR with DelHomme as his QB. That tells you how good Smith is.

I'm not saying he is only a speed guy, just that is his main thing. Totally different receiver from AJ....

Delhomme is more like Newton than he is like Schaub.. give Smith a big armed QB, & he's going to blow it up. He'll get some underneath & across the middle stuff as well, not saying he won't.

But if he's got a small-ball WCO with a noodle arm (respectively) QB, I doubt he would be the Steve Smith we know.

NitroGSXR
10-14-2011, 11:21 AM
For the record I am in favor of trading for Lloyd if a reasonable conditional draft pick trade can be made IF a longer term contract can be worked out. I don't want to give up a 3rd on a one year player or if that player will be unhappy not being the #1 WR. Any WR coming to Houston has to understand he will not be the #1. Mason was a good trade and what was available at the time. It isn't one or the other or one vs. the other.
I'm no armchair GM. That being said...

I feel the same way to a degree. Now that we have Mason, shouldn't we focus efforts of some kind in trying to replace Mario or backing up Bulman at this point?

I'm just more motivated at this point that we pick up another defender. I am highly bothered by having a couple of rookies starting on that front 7 with very little depth. Just how depleted is our WR corps compared to the front 7?

infantrycak
10-14-2011, 11:24 AM
Schaub is tied for 4th in the league for balls over 20+ yards and tied for 1st for balls over 40+ yards and no they are not all YAC as seen from the Dreesen and Walter receptions last weekend. This small ball, noodle arm stuff needs to die. No he doesn't have the biggest arm in the league but he isn't the noodle arm people make him out to be either.

steelbtexan
10-14-2011, 11:25 AM
I'm not saying he is only a speed guy, just that is his main thing. Totally different receiver from AJ....

Delhomme is more like Newton than he is like Schaub.. give Smith a big armed QB, & he's going to blow it up. He'll get some underneath & across the middle stuff as well, not saying he won't.

But if he's got a small-ball WCO with a noodle arm (respectively) QB, I doubt he would be the Steve Smith we know.


I get what you're saying. I just think Smith is a great WR that can make any QB look good. I'm all for signing Lloyd. Like Herv said a 3rd if he performs well and the Texans make the playoffs. A fourth if he does well and the Texans miss the playoffs and a 5th if Lloyd falls flat on his face. (doubtful)

This is the yr to go all out to win the Division. It's wide open and if the Texans miss the playoffs Gary/Rick probably will be fired. So it's all in if I'm Gary/Rick. If they get fired the new regime still will have plenty of ammunition come draft day 2012.

Roc Carmicheal was the 4th rd pick last yr. So trading for a proven WR like Lloyd would be the way to go. There are alot more 4th rd picks like Sharpton/Carmicheal (Bench players, ST guys) than starters like Lloyd to be had in the 4th rd. Especially with Rick/Gary doing the drafting.

Texan_Bill
10-14-2011, 11:25 AM
Schaub is tied for 4th in the league for balls over 20+ yards and tied for 1st for balls over 40+ yards and no they are not all YAC as seen from the Dreesen and Walter receptions last weekend. This small ball, noodle arm stuff needs to die. No he doesn't have the biggest arm in the league but he isn't the noodle arm people make him out to be either.

C'mon now! You know that if enough people say it enough times, it has to be true, no?

steelbtexan
10-14-2011, 11:27 AM
Schaub is tied for 4th in the league for balls over 20+ yards and tied for 1st for balls over 40+ yards and no they are not all YAC as seen from the Dreesen and Walter receptions last weekend. This small ball, noodle arm stuff needs to die. No he doesn't have the biggest arm in the league but he isn't the noodle arm people make him out to be either.

Yep

But his timing does seem to be a bit off on deep throws.

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Schaub is tied for 4th in the league for balls over 20+ yards and tied for 1st for balls over 40+ yards and no they are not all YAC as seen from the Dreesen and Walter receptions last weekend. This small ball, noodle arm stuff needs to die. No he doesn't have the biggest arm in the league but he isn't the noodle arm people make him out to be either.

They were showing some highlights of Schaub on Playbook. Showed a couple of throws off his back foot where the ball just hangs in the air. If he had a strong arm, the ball wouldn't just hang, it would still zing.

I'll lay off the noodle arm thing when I see more balls like the Walter in the seem pass, the WR has to go get it.

That "Hail Mary" to Dressen is also a good point for your argument. He keeps doing that, & I'll lay off.

infantrycak
10-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Yep

But his timing does seem to be a bit off on deep throws.

I would prefer him to throw it a little deeper at times as well. But people really over evaluate/misunderstand that. Seeing a WR have to hesitate on a 35 yard pass is not evidence of a weak arm when the QB can throw the ball 50 yards. Schaub has flat out stated he would rather under throw and leave the WR with a chance than over throw and give no chance. HWWNBN had a big arm and it was incredibly frustrating watching him over throw a wide open WR by 4 yards. I'll take the WR holding up to make a 43 yard reception over that every Sunday. Yes it would be even better if he would extend the pass by 1 or 2 yards more often, but it is a choice not a noodle arm.

They were showing some highlights of Schaub on Playbook. Showed a couple of throws off his back foot where the ball just hangs in the air. If he had a strong arm, the ball wouldn't just hang, it would still zing.

That is just false. There is a reason coaches tell QB's not to throw off their back foot. Look around the league and see how often interceptions come off back footed passes even from strong armed QB's. It's like trying to hit a golf ball without shifting your weight to your forward foot.

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 11:55 AM
That is just false. There is a reason coaches tell QB's not to throw off their back foot. Look around the league and see how often interceptions come off back footed passes even from strong armed QB's. It's like trying to hit a golf ball without shifting your weight to your forward foot.

It happens all the time, you see a QB throwing off his back foot still chunk it 30 yards down the field, you see a guy like TBow or Cutler throw the ball on the run, with neither foot on the ground & they still get the ball down field with good velocity.. Watch Aaron Rodgers(sp) throw it off his back foot & Schaub throw it off his back foot, totally different ball.

You got a strong arm, you can make that throw. It's still not recommended, as is the cross body throw... but when you've got a defense that wants to "get you off your spot" a strong arm helps.

If we can guarantee Matt a clean pocket every time he throws the ball, or if we believed Matt was mobile enough to get away from Danger, throw on the run, or even reset with some regularity..... the noodle arm is fine.

But Throwing the ball 30 ft in the air to get it to go 50 yards is not the same as putting it on a rope & hitting your target 25 yards down the field with zing.

Look, as long as Matt Schaub & Gary Kubiak stay together, Matt's going to continue to put up stats. He plays within himself. If he "chooses" to under throw his receiver instead of throwing that perfect pass & getting a touchdown (because that's what you're giving up when Aj has to stop, wait, & catch the ball, allowing the reciever to make up the 3-6 yard cushion he worked his ass off to get), But if he's choosing to give up that TD instead of becoming a better player (working on that timing) then that lends to those guys who argue we will never win with Schaub. I'm not one of those guys, but if you're telling me that is the decision Matt makes, I may be soon.

I wonder what does it say when Brees, Manning, Brady, Rogers (sp) don't make the same decision Matt does & under throw balls with that kind of regularity.

David Carr had the arm, but he's a moron, I don't know what he's got to do with the conversation, we're talking about Quarterbacks.

Put Andre Johnson with any of the QBs I just mentioned, Brees, Manning, Brady, Rogers & the single season TD record for a receiver would be somewhere around 40.

Texan_Bill
10-14-2011, 12:27 PM
I don't care if it's Dan Marino or John Elway, you can not get as much on a throw from your back foot as you do when you're able to step into a throw. Physically impossble.

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 12:35 PM
I don't care if it's Dan Marino or John Elway, you can not get as much on a throw from your back foot as you do when you're able to step into a throw. Physically impossble.

Who said you could?

Wasn't me. I said a guy with a strong arm can still make a "good enough" throw off his back foot. Happens all the time.

Rey
10-14-2011, 12:36 PM
Most of Matt's passes seem airy to me....

Texan_Bill
10-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Who said you could?

Wasn't me. I said a guy with a strong arm can still make a "good enough" throw off his back foot. Happens all the time.

It happens all the time, you see a QB throwing off his back foot still chunk it 30 yards

I just watched Playbook AFC last night. They were highlighting Balty's defense and the pressure they can put on a QB. Ben Rothlesblahblah chunked a ball 30 yards and it didn't have anything on it and subsequently got picked off.

gary
10-14-2011, 12:47 PM
Just one season ago Mason had sixty plus catches.

TdotTexas2Step
10-14-2011, 06:34 PM
For what it's worth, just played my first Madden online game with Mason, and he was super reliable. Looked to AJ and OD first, and if they weren't there, I knew most of the time, Mason would have separation on their #2 or #3 corner because of his 92 route running rating.


:gamer:

amazing80
10-14-2011, 06:42 PM
I just watched Playbook AFC last night. They were highlighting Balty's defense and the pressure they can put on a QB. Ben Rothlesblahblah chunked a ball 30 yards and it didn't have anything on it and subsequently got picked off.

Yea, but based off one bad throw you cannot make that judgment. Andre always seems to be waiting for the deep pass when Matt throws it regardless if the pocket is clean or if he is running or backing up. Just because you throw it 50 yards doesn't mean you have a strong arm. Even the big highlights on youtube for Andre show the "weak" arm Matt has. The moment he hits a wr in stride streaking down the field for an 80 yard touchdown is the day I will agree he has a "strong arm". Until then.....http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-stretched-canvas-real/noodle-arm-man-karl-addison.jpg

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 07:01 PM
The moment he hits a wr in stride streaking down the field for an 80 yard touchdown is the day I will agree he has a "strong arm".

Heck, overthrow them every now & then...

ObsiWan
10-14-2011, 07:34 PM
Anyone else hear that Brandon Lloyd is now on the trading block?

Link (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31751_162-20120513-10391697.html)

(CBS) - Fans knew the Denver Broncos were going for a new look when they announced that Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1114680/tim-tebow) was the new starting quarterback. And the changes keep coming. The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19108351) reports that the Broncos have put wide receiver Brandon Lloyd (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/396021/brandon-lloyd) on the trading block.
The team is reportedly looking for a third- to fifth-round draft pick in exchange for Lloyd. With the NFL trade deadline coming up next Tuesday, Denver may be looking to deal Lloyd in a hurry.


I considered making a new thread, and if that's been done, Mods (as always) are free to merge this post with the appropriate one.

The Cush
10-14-2011, 10:10 PM
Anyone else hear that Brandon Lloyd is now on the trading block?

Link (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31751_162-20120513-10391697.html)


I considered making a new thread, and if that's been done, Mods (as always) are free to merge this post with the appropriate one.

Yea, it's been heavily discussed the last day or so. I'm all for it, but with him, Mario, and Foster all being free agents after this season, I need some assurance he would be willing to re-sign with us before I say it's a no brainer. Would it be worth renting him for a year, during a season where our team isn't and won't be at full strength due to all the injuries, for a 3rd round pick?

NitroGSXR
10-14-2011, 10:20 PM
Yea, it's been heavily discussed the last day or so. I'm all for it, but with him, Mario, and Foster all being free agents after this season, I need some assurance he would be willing to re-sign with us before I say it's a no brainer. Would it be worth renting him for a year, during a season where our team isn't and won't be at full strength due to all the injuries, for a 3rd round pick?

How about a sign-and-trade?

hradhak
10-15-2011, 12:24 AM
Schaub is probably one of the most accurate when he's able to step into his throw. The danger comes when he's throwing off his back foot. Ideally every QB should step into his throw, but when you're getting rushed it's not a question of step into it and throw. A guy who can make a play off his back foot has a distinct advantage over a guy like Schaub who doesn't have the arm strength to throw off his back foot.

That said, Schaub has incredible touch in the mid range that many QBs don't have. There's a reason he is at the top of the stats every year with 20+ throws. It's not because he can bomb it, but because he can drop it in over several defenders.

Shaft75
10-15-2011, 12:38 AM
For what it's worth, just played my first Madden online game with Mason, and he was super reliable. Looked to AJ and OD first, and if they weren't there, I knew most of the time, Mason would have separation on their #2 or #3 corner because of his 92 route running rating.


:gamer:

THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!

But even better is that Andre is active online too!!!

Oh wait, it's only a video game...:rake:

EVOLVIST
10-15-2011, 12:50 AM
Matt Schaub is the Bob Griese of this new decade.

And you know what? I can live with that.

But wait! I thought this thread was about Mason.

I'm very pleased with Mason being here.

I guess that would make Mason our Paul Warfield.

Carr Bombed
10-15-2011, 01:07 AM
I feel the same way to a degree. Now that we have Mason, shouldn't we focus efforts of some kind in trying to replace Mario or backing up Bulman at this point?

We already did that when we drafted Brooks Reed in the 2nd round, how about giving the guy a chance? He was one of the best prospects in the draft at his position and is a heck of a football player....has more upside and athletic ability than anyone else who is going to be available right now.

I'm just more motivated at this point that we pick up another defender. I am highly bothered by having a couple of rookies starting on that front 7 with very little depth. Just how depleted is our WR corps compared to the front 7?

We're still SOLID in the front 7 and have quality options there... Even without Mario the front 7 doesn't remotely compare to the depth/talent level of the WR position without Andre. Houston STILL has a very good front 7. Heck even if you leave the WR position out of this, addressing the front 7 still wouldn't be next in line as far as "needs" go....the CB position would. Hell the DB position might actually also be ahead of the WR position.

VTexan
10-15-2011, 01:19 AM
Only a 3rd/5th for Lloyd? Seems like a no brainer to me. But it won't happen with the recent Mason deal.

steelbtexan
10-15-2011, 01:22 AM
We already did that when we drafted Brooks Reed in the 2nd round, how about giving the guy a chance? He was one of the best prospects in the draft at his position and is a heck of a football player....has more upside and athletic ability than anyone else who is going to be available right now.



We're still SOLID in the front 7 and have quality options there... Even without Mario the front 7 doesn't remotely compare to the depth/talent level of the WR position without Andre. Houston STILL has a very good front 7. Heck even if you leave the WR position out of this, addressing the front 7 still wouldn't be next in line as far as "needs" go....the CB position would. Hell the DB position might actually also be ahead of the WR position.

I'm very high on Reed. It may take a few games for him to get his feet wet. But the guy has playmaker written all over him. He's a high intensity guy and high intensity guys usually make plays in the 4th qtr. After the OL get tired.

I want a WR in rd1-2. But if there's a CB on the board in rd.1 and Wade says this guy is going to be a star and I want him on my defense. You take the CB. I have alot of faith in Wades ability to evaluate defensive talent. Much more faith than I do in Rick/Garys ability to do the same.

steelbtexan
10-15-2011, 01:28 AM
Matt Schaub is the Bob Griese of this new decade.

And you know what? I can live with that.

But wait! I thought this thread was about Mason.

I'm very pleased with Mason being here.

I guess that would make Mason our Paul Warfield.

Good comparison, Schaub gets in trouble when he cant set his feet to throw. (Step up into the pocket/rolls out or has to scramble. He loses accuracy makes bad decisions and seems rushed. This is because of Schaubs very limited athletic ability. IMHO

I'm still a Schaub guy though.

EVOLVIST
10-15-2011, 01:41 AM
Good comparison, Schaub gets in trouble when he cant set his feet to throw. (Step up into the pocket/rolls out or has to scramble. He loses accuracy makes bad decisions and seems rushed. This is because of Schaubs very limited athletic ability. IMHO

I'm still a Schaub guy though.

Yup. Just like Greise, the consumate pocket passer: weak in athleticism, kind of a nerd...but he can get the job done - and then some.

The only problem is, Kubes is no Shula.

We should have been deep in the playoffs in 09.

steelbtexan
10-15-2011, 01:49 AM
Yup. Just like Greise, the consumate pocket passer: weak in athleticism, kind of a nerd...but he can get the job done - and then some.

The only problem is, Kubes is no Shula.

We should have been deep in the playoffs in 09.

Yep

I gotthe feeling that after the 2009 season with that patsy schedule if they didn't make the playoffs under Gary that yr they never would.

thunderkyss
10-15-2011, 08:00 AM
Yep

I gotthe feeling that after the 2009 season with that patsy schedule if they didn't make the playoffs under Gary that yr they never would.

This needs to stop

The 2009 schedule... was a .506 based on the 2008 season (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/news/story?id=4027503) and .517 based on their actual 2009 performance (http://www.east-coast-bias.com/2009/12/2010-nfl-draft-order-strength-of.html)

The schedule was thought to be "easy" because we played the NFC West... which we were 3-1 against, losing only to the Cardinals who happened to make a Super Bowl Appearance that year.
Only 4 teams did better than we did with a tougher schedule than we had.

This schedule, though it started at .516, is much easier than that 2009 schedule, mostly because the two games against the Colts & Jags have gotten much easier. We'll probably end up with a S.O.S. below .500 for the first time since Kubiak got here.

& just in case you don't think that means anything, look at the NYJets.... they have a schedule this year that looks as tough as it does on paper, they aren't having much success yet.... they lost three in a row, & they are falling apart. If they lose Monday night, it's ovah.....

Bottom line, this year, because of the Colts & the Jags, we might truly have an easy schedule, even though we're playing the AFC North & NFC South... we usually do pretty well outside the division.

gary
10-15-2011, 10:54 AM
We'll see how Mason plays tomorrow the wait is almost over.

b0ng
10-15-2011, 11:32 AM
No offense, but Brandon Lloyd never got a shot in San Fran...he's a late bloomer. He's a very good receiver. The time that these two players have played is irrelevant. All anybody has to do is watch Lloyd play to know he's a better receiver.

Brandon Lloyd has work ethic issues that have been talked about as far back as when he was in Illinois. He can catch and has some good skills but he has been a slacker practically his whole career. There is nothing that garuntees he's going to be a 1500yard guy for the rest of his career.

steelbtexan
10-15-2011, 11:43 AM
Brandon Lloyd has work ethic issues that have been talked about as far back as when he was in Illinois. He can catch and has some good skills but he has been a slacker practically his whole career. There is nothing that garuntees he's going to be a 1500yard guy for the rest of his career.

Totally agree

Bottom line is Lloyd would be an upgrade over JJ and with how this team drafts Lloyd would probably be better than anybody Smith would draft in the 35th rd. (See JJ,Molden Carmicheal etc...)

steelbtexan
10-15-2011, 11:55 AM
This needs to stop

The 2009 schedule... was a .506 based on the 2008 season (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/news/story?id=4027503) and .517 based on their actual 2009 performance (http://www.east-coast-bias.com/2009/12/2010-nfl-draft-order-strength-of.html)

The schedule was thought to be "easy" because we played the NFC West... which we were 3-1 against, losing only to the Cardinals who happened to make a Super Bowl Appearance that year.
Only 4 teams did better than we did with a tougher schedule than we had.

This schedule, though it started at .516, is much easier than that 2009 schedule, mostly because the two games against the Colts & Jags have gotten much easier. We'll probably end up with a S.O.S. below .500 for the first time since Kubiak got here.

& just in case you don't think that means anything, look at the NYJets.... they have a schedule this year that looks as tough as it does on paper, they aren't having much success yet.... they lost three in a row, & they are falling apart. If they lose Monday night, it's ovah.....

Bottom line, this year, because of the Colts & the Jags, we might truly have an easy schedule, even though we're playing the AFC North & NFC South... we usually do pretty well outside the division.

.516 numbers are skewed.Due to the fact every team not named the Texans made the playoffs. The Texans contributed to this stat by going 1-5 within division. 30 wins came from the Colts/Jags/Tacks.

Naiirb
10-16-2011, 11:33 AM
Details on the conditional draft pick per Schefter

Jets traded Derrick Mason for an If pick. If Mason catches 33 or more passes for Texans, Jets get a 7. If he doesn't, they get nothing.

Rey
10-16-2011, 11:37 AM
Details on the conditional draft pick per Schefter

What?

amazing80
10-16-2011, 11:41 AM
Details on the conditional draft pick per Schefter

Wonder how that works lol. So we could potentially get him for nothing? Seems like Rick made a good move there :texanbill:

TdotTexas2Step
10-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Well I hope the Jets end up getting a 7th then, because we need Mason to be that third reliable option behind AJ and OD.

thunderkyss
10-16-2011, 12:02 PM
Well I hope the Jets end up getting a 7th then, because we need Mason to be that third reliable option behind AJ and OD.

We need Mason to be a #2 & Walter to be the best slot receiver in the league.

76Texan
10-16-2011, 12:58 PM
I hope that Mason gets 32 catches for a thousand yards today and 10 TDs with AJ back to 100% the next game.

Just kidding!

I hope that Mason gets whatever that number Rex Ryan was hoping he would get (80-90 pro-rated to about 5-6 catches per game, 60-70 ypg, and about 4 TDs for the rest of the season - based on his career numbers.)

But that's probably unrealistic when AJ comes back (unless the Texans decide to move a WR or cut down the number of passes thrown that way.)

3 catches per game over 11 games (33 total) seems like a good over.under number, I think.
We'll all be glad if he exceeds that, but if he does, hopefully he exceeds it by quite a bit.
More important though, IMO, it would be great if he corners 6-8 TDs.

Texan_Bill
10-16-2011, 01:37 PM
I just hope Mason gives them something to think about because Jacoby doesn't scare anyone!!

The Pencil Neck
10-16-2011, 01:45 PM
Wow.

That's just like "Take this guy off our hands, please! We beseach you!"

Wolf
10-16-2011, 01:47 PM
JJ:The real life Clifford Franklin

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/201/789/ojrep_display_image.jpg?1271572918

The Cush
10-16-2011, 02:29 PM
I can't believe people were actually complaining about this move. How many of our 7th round picks are still on the team or made any sort of impact? This is the epitome of "low risk-high reward"

thunderkyss
10-16-2011, 02:35 PM
I can't believe people were actually complaining about this move. How many of our 7th round picks are still on the team or made any sort of impact? This is the epitome of "low risk-high reward"

Like you said, with this deal if we give up a 7th round pick, it's because the guy caught 33 balls, not that he "might" make the freak'n team.

Money.

srrono
10-16-2011, 02:36 PM
http://i51.tinypic.com/2uz59bc.jpg

Surreal McCoy
10-16-2011, 02:41 PM
I can't believe people were actually complaining about this move. How many of our 7th round picks are still on the team or made any sort of impact? This is the epitome of "low risk-high reward"

They will complain until the team is moved, then blame anyone but themselves.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 10:57 AM
Also sounds like we'll be hearing more about Aj's injury in the near future.... not good news.

Damn... Damn... Damn..

Double Barrel
10-18-2011, 11:47 AM
They will complain until the team is moved, then blame anyone but themselves.

Dream on, troll. This team has a 30 year lease. It's not moving regardless of how many birthday wishes you waste on it.

GP
10-18-2011, 12:02 PM
Dream on, troll. This team has a 30 year lease. It's not moving regardless of how many birthday wishes you waste on it.

For. The. Win.

http://www.wheelsjamaicahost.com/wheels_forum/Smileys/default/ftw.gif

brad77
10-18-2011, 02:32 PM
I can't believe people were actually complaining about this move. How many of our 7th round picks are still on the team or made any sort of impact? This is the epitome of "low risk-high reward"

I agree 100%. This guy is a playmaker and can be a good #2 receiver once AJ is back. Put Walter in the slot where he plays best.

We need to find a way to better pass protect for Schaub so he has time to let the routes develop. I too am frustrated with the throws at receivers feet, but he needs more time to set his feet and I believe he can throw strikes. Ravens had Schaub on his back foot whole game.

thunderkyss
10-18-2011, 03:07 PM
We need to find a way to better pass protect for Schaub so he has time to let the routes develop. I too am frustrated with the throws at receivers feet, but he needs more time to set his feet and I believe he can throw strikes. Ravens had Schaub on his back foot whole game.

& we had Flacco on his back the whole game.

BullNation4Life
10-18-2011, 06:34 PM
I can't believe people were actually complaining about this move. How many of our 7th round picks are still on the team or made any sort of impact? This is the epitome of "low risk-high reward"

They complain or I should say I complained because you could have had not only Mason, who is not going to make any significant impact on this team, but also a younger WR in Lloyd for a 6th round pick. This would have been a significant upgrade.

Doppelganger
10-18-2011, 06:36 PM
I was actually wondering about Haven Moses.

No love for Ernest Givens?

Vinny
10-18-2011, 07:29 PM
& we had Flacco on his back the whole game.dude has a weird disassociated look in his eyes, but he stands in there and takes hits while delivering the ball. I haven't been a big Flacco fan, but he's certainly tough and doesn't back down.

TejasTom
10-22-2011, 08:00 AM
Kubiak Friday after practice on Derrick Mason - "He's way ahead as far as game plan, he's got the full grasp. Last week he kind of played in a package. This week he'll play in the whole scheme of things. He's moved forward. "

Awesome!

MojoMan
10-22-2011, 08:09 AM
Derrick Mason is 37 years old.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1263/derrick-mason

He played well last Sunday though.

Sevenfeet
10-22-2011, 09:38 AM
As you guys know, D-Mase played many of his most productive years catching for Steve McNair in Nashville (and later for McNair in Baltimore). He may be old now and not have the speed he once did, but he's got the softest hands in the game and he's as competitive as hell. He doesn't drop passes. Many of us in Tennessee wanted to see him back in a Titans uniform this season when the bit with the Jets didn't work out, despite his age. With Kenny Britt gone, he could be a difference maker and he has a built in fan base (hell, he still lives here part time and his family is here).

I hope it works out for him for your guys...except of course for tomorrow.

TdotTexas2Step
10-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Kubiak Friday after practice on Derrick Mason - "He's way ahead as far as game plan, he's got the full grasp. Last week he kind of played in a package. This week he'll play in the whole scheme of things. He's moved forward. "

Awesome!

Other than a win, I'd love to see Mason walk away from tomorrow's game with a TD or two.

HJam72
10-22-2011, 12:33 PM
dude has a weird disassociated look in his eyes, but he stands in there and takes hits while delivering the ball. I haven't been a big Flacco fan, but he's certainly tough and doesn't back down.

Lots of pre-taken painkillers. :)

Honestly, this isn't about his game and I know it, but he just looks like a "fag" to me (not that most people think there's anything wrong with that). I assume he isn't, but he sure looks it.

gary
10-22-2011, 07:26 PM
Move Mason around and get him the football without AJ.

gary
10-23-2011, 06:25 PM
Mason now has 941 career catches.