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Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 11:42 AM
When did you decide to start your clock, yesterday?

How about we go back five years during which time they totally sucked.
take a look at what kind of picks they had during the last five years....

2011 (5-0 ...so far) - One 1st and Two 2nd rd picks
2010 (6-10) - TWO 1st rd picks (Ndamukong Suh and Jahvid Best) and one 3rd (no 2nd rd pick)
2009 (2-14) - Two 1st rd picks (Matt Stafford & TE/Brandon Pettigrew); a 2nd (CB/Louis Delmas); and TWO 3rds.
2008 (0-16) - One 1st (G. Cherilus - I think this is when we got Duane Brown); a 2nd, and three 3rd round picks.
2007 (7-9) - One 1st (Megatron) and three 2nds (one was Drew Stanton)

Now that's TWENTY first day picks (or what used to be first day until they stretched the draft out for damned ratings)

Don't you think you could turn a team around with that many quality picks available to you. And once they got rid of Millen, they started drafting quality players with those picks (although Millen did draft Cherilus and Megatron so he didn't whiff on all his picks).

Twenty first day picks in five years. And I didn't count the second day picks where one might find an occasional steal.

Oh yeah, the Lions turned it around just this year.

Man, when do the excuses and the spin ever stop with you guys from year to year?? Seriously, you're trying to justify a team sucking for years as to why they're undefeated right now and playing better than the Texas?? Newsflash, the Texans went 2-14, 6-10, and 8-8 twice. That's not exactly picking from 24-32. And this is seriously one of the most lame attempts to make it seem like some other team has had some sort of advantage I've ever seen. Picks are a roll of the dice half the time. There is free agency, and the Texans have had a lot of good players for 3 years now and have had plenty of good first round picks of their own other than Kareem Jackson which is their own fault for drafting. THe Lions had their fair share of horrible draft picks in the first round as well and you're conveniently forgetting that, but don't sit here and give me this pathetic excuse about a team stinking so badly for years and being a doormat so they got all of these competitive advantages and expect me to take you seriously as an objective observer that isn't just trying to save face for the Kubiak when the comparison is made.

infantrycak
10-13-2011, 12:16 PM
Man, when do the excuses and the spin ever stop with you guys from year to year??

When did a correct observation of facts become an excuse?

Fact is the Lions have had 21 1st day picks with 7 of them being 1st rounders, 7 2nds and 7 3rds generally much higher in the rounds than the Texans.
Fact is the Texans have had 14 1st day picks with 5 of them being 1st rounders, 4 2nds and 5 3rd 3rds.

Throw the Texans out of this. If you were the GM for ANY team in the league which set of picks would you choose?

HOU-TEX
10-13-2011, 12:42 PM
I wish we could've drafted a player like Suh

*HOU-TEX random comment*

Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 12:46 PM
When did a correct observation of facts become an excuse?

Fact is the Lions have had 21 1st day picks with 7 of them being 1st rounders, 7 2nds and 7 3rds generally much higher in the rounds than the Texans.
Fact is the Texans have had 14 1st day picks with 5 of them being 1st rounders, 4 2nds and 5 3rd 3rds.

Throw the Texans out of this. If you were the GM for ANY team in the league which set of picks would you choose?

Oh please, you guys laughed off the Lions for years. THey had a ton of first day picks under Millen and they screwed up and still couldn't make anything happen. Don't give me this ploy Cak. They fired their HC and GM and gave someone else a chance and it's worked out for them now. At some point in year 6 you're going to have to admit to yourself that a ton of other franchises have done a much better job at resurging their franchises than the Texans have under Smithiak. I won't expect you to do it, to try and use the Lions picks as some sort of major advantage when there are tons of teams all around the league that have used the draft to better their teams along with free agency as well, it's just another ploy to save face for the Smithiak. I've heard this stuff from you and Obi for years. You guys won't admit that these guys have been failures until they're gone and that's obvious at this point if it ever happens. You shouldn't worry though, because the Texans will make the playoffs this year with Manning being gone and the Jags losing their QB and Smithiak will get their extension. All is good in the world. :koolaid:

Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 12:49 PM
I wish we could've drafted a player like Suh

*HOU-TEX random comment*

We drafted Okoye and Travis Johnson. We just missed.

infantrycak
10-13-2011, 12:57 PM
Oh please, you guys laughed off the Lions for years.

Who is you guys? - I have barely if ever commented on the Lions.

THey had a ton of first day picks under Millen and they screwed up and still couldn't make anything happen.

So?

Don't give me this ploy Cak. At some point in year 6 you're going to have to admit to yourself that a ton of other franchises have done a much better job at resurging their franchises than the Texans have under Smithiak.

Did I say anything to the contrary.

I won't expect you to do it, to try and use the Lions picks as some sort of major advantage when there are tons of teams all around the league that have used the draft to better their teams along with free agency as well, it's just another ploy to save face for the Smithiak.

Even two brain cells will tell you 21 higher draft picks is an advantage over 14 lower ones. Denying it is an advantage ridiculous. Recognizing that is not a statement Smithiak have done as well as the Lions because they have not so far.

I will watch the season play out before making a decision on this season.

HOU-TEX
10-13-2011, 01:00 PM
We drafted Okoye and Travis Johnson. We just missed.

Yeah, but Suh's style and intensity is a rare breed. He was a consistent beast in Nebraska. I remember those two coming out of College and they weren't even close, especially Okoye.

Double Barrel
10-13-2011, 01:05 PM
I wish we could've drafted a player like Suh

*HOU-TEX random comment*

As mediocre as the Texans have been the past 10 years, I still wouldn't trade it for what Lions fans have had to endure. 2-14 is bad, but damn if 0-16 had to be a point where you just stop watching football altogether. At least we had the expansion excuse. Lions fans have had to endure inept for so long that I barely remember them being any good even with Barry Sanders back there.

Go Lions! When a franchise like that can turn it around, it gives me lots of hope as a Texans fan.

Surreal McCoy
10-13-2011, 01:13 PM
Oh please, you guys laughed off the Lions for years. THey had a ton of first day picks under Millen and they screwed up and still couldn't make anything happen. Don't give me this ploy Cak. They fired their HC and GM and gave someone else a chance and it's worked out for them now.

I'm almost 50 and the Lions have been shoite my entire life - including the Sanders years because he was all they had. So, rather than being disingenuous and saying "they turned it around in 1.5 years", the reality is they've been utter shite since the 1950s.

Thorn
10-13-2011, 01:25 PM
I'm almost 50 and the Lions have been shoite my entire life - including the Sanders years because he was all they had. So, rather than being disingenuous and saying "they turned it around in 1.5 years", the reality is they've been utter shite since the 1950s.

Agreed. But it doesn't mean we aren't going to ***** about the Texans.

GP
10-13-2011, 01:33 PM
I've asked you no such thing, I don't have any faith in Kubiak or his regime. All I've ever asked is that you stop beating that incessant drum... & the point with that post, was nothing about Kubiak, it was about you. If the Texans had that same 5-0 record against those same teams you'd find some way to belittle it.

We beat the 0-5 Colts... doesn't make a shit to you that it was a division game.. none. The Colts aren't the same without Manning.... you just suck the joy out of that win... never mind that the Vikings is worse than the bad team they fielded last year.

That's a quality win for Detroit, so is the win against the 1-4 Chiefs..... we wouldn't be afforded half a second to enjoy that victory without you reminding us how worthless of a win that is...... that it's not a quality win.

What's the Lions W-L against winning teams on the road since 2002?

Look at the way they beat the Cowboys, they were dominated in that first half & Romo'd their way to a victory. If that was us, you'd be telling us how lucky we were.

Look, I don't give a shit about Gary Kubiak. All I want is to be able to enjoy a win when we win, sympathize with my fellow fans when we lose, & enjoy the freak'n season without reading the same drivel week in & week out.

You have, IMO, a mix of "grace beyond acceptable allowances" and the ability to enjoy your team no matter the circumstances. In reading your posts, you're an extremely patient person and you desire to see people win at the end of the day.

For that, I happen to think a lot of you. I've said it before, will say it again: You're likely an excellent mentor--able to be nice as pie but firm as concrete when you need to be--and people probably enjoy being around you.

On here, people are generally pretty zealous about the team being winners. So 10 years into this franchise's history, people are ready to erase the Bud Adams era with our own winning tradition. And in that, we (I include myself here) are short-tempered.

You might not like Kubiak, but I think you two guys have the same type of personality in how you handle situations and how you go onward with solutions. Maybe that's why it appears you DO like the guy? Just analyzing it a bit, and I mean no offense toward you in doing it.

People on here want to win, and win now. So...people on here are not going be gracious unto the Kubiak regime until that happens or he's gone. And it doesn't look good for Kubiak, it really never has. Improvement? Yes. Growth in the truest sense? No, not in my opinion.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 02:13 PM
Man, when do the excuses and the spin ever stop with you guys from year to year??

I agree. But, I also think we should take a minute to decipher what this 5-0 really means. I don't think it means anything. If they are 9-7 or better by the end of the year, then they'll have done something & we can have this conversation then as far as I'm concerned.

Let's see them beat the Saints or the Steelers, then we can talk about how much better they are than we are. So far, all we've got is a highlight reel (a damn good one mind you) with a bunch of fluff.

Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm almost 50 and the Lions have been shoite my entire life - including the Sanders years because he was all they had. So, rather than being disingenuous and saying "they turned it around in 1.5 years", the reality is they've been utter shite since the 1950s.

What is your point? I know all about the Lions history having family from Michigan who have always rooted for the Lions. They've stunk since trading Bobby Layne, and he actually cursed them and publicly said they'd stink for 50 years, and coincidentally it happened. Bottom line though, the Lions got rid of their coaching staff a few times until they got it right. It took them to long to get rid of Matt Millen though, and that's why they went through more down years as a result. Once they got rid of him and Marinelli and brought in Schwartz things changed for the better.

That has nothing to do with the Texans though. THe Lions are just another team that have turned their franchise around faster than what the Texans have since Kubiak got hired here and for these guys to all of a sudden point to their draft picks as some euphoric excuse as to why the Lions have had all these advantages over the Texans or other teams is a laugh. None of these same guys were predicting that the Lions would be some top team in the NFL this year or proclaimed the Lions as this "lucky team" to break out because of those picks before. It's a poor attempt to act like the Lions got all of these gifts and advantages, but all they got was what sorry ass teams get in the NFL. We got high draft picks to. We've had opportunities to trade picks or to make certain moves. At the end of the day it's about results and what you build with your team. The Texans actually have a stacked team in my eyes. They just need a new coach running it and we could be a top team. We should be 4-1 right now. I still think we have a good season record wise this year.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 02:18 PM
Oh please, you guys laughed off the Lions for years. THey had a ton of first day picks under Millen and they screwed up and still couldn't make anything happen. Don't give me this ploy Cak. They fired their HC and GM and gave someone else a chance and it's worked out for them now. At some point in year 6 you're going to have to admit to yourself that a ton of other franchises have done a much better job at resurging their franchises than the Texans have under Smithiak.

The Lions are definitely in the few teams that I think compare to the situation of the Texans..... Buffalo as well.

If those two franchises actually have something going.... then we've got a conversation.

I'm with the guys who said 5 years was enough... Buffalo & Detroit, how long have they had their current GM? That's probably the only real difference between our franchises.

Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 02:23 PM
I agree. But, I also think we should take a minute to decipher what this 5-0 really means. I don't think it means anything. If they are 9-7 or better by the end of the year, then they'll have done something & we can have this conversation then as far as I'm concerned.

Let's see them beat the Saints or the Steelers, then we can talk about how much better they are than we are. So far, all we've got is a highlight reel (a damn good one mind you) with a bunch of fluff.

Hey, I think we could beat the Lions in a head to head match up. They could beat us as well. The factor with the Lions is that they have a coach that's only been there one season before this year and he has turned this thing around fast which is what many of us have stated in here for years, while others have acted like any new HC would come in here and blow this thing up and it would take 5 years to rebuild. That theory gets proved wrong every season. Schwartz is looking like the real deal as a HC at this moment in time. Maybe they falter as the year goes on, but he doesn't have a history of horrible coaching mistakes and games where his teams always find reasons to lose to question him yet.

Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 02:25 PM
The Lions are definitely in the few teams that I think compare to the situation of the Texans..... Buffalo as well.

If those two franchises actually have something going.... then we've got a conversation.

I'm with the guys who said 5 years was enough... Buffalo & Detroit, how long have they had their current GM? That's probably the only real difference between our franchises.

This is Schwartz 2nd season there man and they're 5-0. Haley went 11-5 in his 2nd season. Rex Ryan went to two AFC championships in his first two seasons there. That's just in the last 2 seasons. Before that I could lead off numerous examples of teams that have turned their situation around faster just by hiring new coaches. It doesn't always work, but complacency has proven to be more of a negative in the NFL where teams can rise and fall very quickly.

Surreal McCoy
10-13-2011, 02:44 PM
What is your point? I know all about the Lions history having family from Michigan who have always rooted for the Lions. They've stunk since trading Bobby Layne, and he actually cursed them and publicly said they'd stink for 50 years, and coincidentally it happened. Bottom line though, the Lions got rid of their coaching staff a few times until they got it right. It took them to long to get rid of Matt Millen though, and that's why they went through more down years as a result. Once they got rid of him and Marinelli and brought in Schwartz things changed for the better.

That has nothing to do with the Texans though. THe Lions are just another team that have turned their franchise around faster than what the Texans have since Kubiak got hired here and for these guys to all of a sudden point to their draft picks as some euphoric excuse as to why the Lions have had all these advantages over the Texans or other teams is a laugh. None of these same guys were predicting that the Lions would be some top team in the NFL this year or proclaimed the Lions as this "lucky team" to break out because of those picks before. It's a poor attempt to act like the Lions got all of these gifts and advantages, but all they got was what sorry ass teams get in the NFL. We got high draft picks to. We've had opportunities to trade picks or to make certain moves. At the end of the day it's about results and what you build with your team. The Texans actually have a stacked team in my eyes. They just need a new coach running it and we could be a top team. We should be 4-1 right now. I still think we have a good season record wise this year.

Faster? Umm, it's taken them 50 years!!! And no point in going over picks as Cak pointed out quite succinctly.

Runner
10-13-2011, 02:52 PM
This is Schwartz 2nd season there man and they're 5-0. Haley went 11-5 in his 2nd season. Rex Ryan went to two AFC championships in his first two seasons there. That's just in the last 2 seasons. Before that I could lead off numerous examples of teams that have turned their situation around faster just by hiring new coaches. It doesn't always work, but complacency has proven to be more of a negative in the NFL where teams can rise and fall very quickly.

It seems we have a matter of semantics here. One side says the Lions have been on the skids for years and the turnaround starts with the new coach (which was helped with many good draft picks).

The other side says the rebuild starts after the last good season and the new coach is just at the end of the process. (The new coach started at a lower low than the Texans last two years).

So each side can talk from their viewpoint and be adamant they are right.

=========

In the past I've been told we can't be compared to the turnaround of teams like the Falcons because they had a good base, they just recovered from a bad year or two. The Texans didn't have that base.

Now we can't be compared to the Lions because they were so bad and got so many high draft picks. The Texans didn't have the luxury of those picks.

It's that blasted Texans luck; they have been too bad to get to the playoffs, but too good to get better.

Double Barrel
10-13-2011, 03:19 PM
I agree. But, I also think we should take a minute to decipher what this 5-0 really means. I don't think it means anything. If they are 9-7 or better by the end of the year, then they'll have done something & we can have this conversation then as far as I'm concerned.

Let's see them beat the Saints or the Steelers, then we can talk about how much better they are than we are. So far, all we've got is a highlight reel (a damn good one mind you) with a bunch of fluff.

I like the Lions and I think they are building something great.

However, I'm not ready to crown them until they face the really good NFC teams, too. Especially playing the Packers twice, because GB is a team that has had no drop-off after their championship, and it could be argued that they have actually improved with so many players coming back from injuries.

And I've seen it many times where a team starts off great, but the success is too fast for a young team to handle when the eventual adversity comes their way. Yeah, the 5-0 Lions could theoretically be 16-0, but they could theoretically be 5-11, too. I think they'll be a 9-10 win wildcard team based upon who they seem to be right now, but like you said, let's see them play through some tough teams and tough losses, not to mention the potential injuries to star players.

Lions on Thanksgiving will actually be one to watch this year. They play the Packers! :thumbup

Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 04:41 PM
It seems we have a matter of semantics here. One side says the Lions have been on the skids for years and the turnaround starts with the new coach (which was helped with many good draft picks).

The other side says the rebuild starts after the last good season and the new coach is just at the end of the process. (The new coach started at a lower low than the Texans last two years).

So each side can talk from their viewpoint and be adamant they are right.

=========

In the past I've been told we can't be compared to the turnaround of teams like the Falcons because they had a good base, they just recovered from a bad year or two. The Texans didn't have that base.

Now we can't be compared to the Lions because they were so bad and got so many high draft picks. The Texans didn't have the luxury of those picks.

It's that blasted Texans luck; they have been too bad to get to the playoffs, but too good to get better.

They said that with the Saints, the Titans, the Cards, the Dolphins when they went from 1-15 to stealing the division from the Pats of all teams, and the ones you mentioned as well as the Lions now.

Yep, no matter the situation with other teams it's always some benefit they had or some greater downfall the Texans had even when some other team like the Lions who came from an even worse position comes jumps up faster. There is some new type of spin that's put on it, because the people that have supported Kubiak like they're his nephews don't want to admit that he wasn't the next Tom Landry that many expected him to be. There are certain fans that will always act like their players and coaches are better or have had some sort of tougher circumstance. It's like listening to parents who won't be honest with themselves about their children.

When the Texans do make the playoffs this year, because I do think everything is falling in place for them to do so, I'm sure how we'll hear that Kubiak proved his doubters wrong even though it took him 6 years just to make the first round. He'll get his extension and the making the playoffs will be our SB to those fans. I just wish more for AJ. He deserves better.

Texecutioner
10-13-2011, 04:43 PM
Faster? Umm, it's taken them 50 years!!! And no point in going over picks as Cak pointed out quite succinctly.

Apparently you didn't read one word I said. You're just taking 50 years of poor history and running with it, even though it has nothing to do with the conversation when we're specifically talking about Schwartz's success in the small amount of time that he has had to turn this team around.

Texan_Bill
10-13-2011, 05:16 PM
You wanna crown their ass, then crown their ass.....

But there is a 11 games to go so, let's not go around jerking each other off just yet, for winning the Super Bowl in October.

Bucs 3-2
Chefs 2-3
Vikes 1-4 (had to go to OT)
Gurls 2-2
Bears 2-3

Combined record of 10-14

They still have the Niners, Bears one more time, the Packers twice, Saints, Raiders, and Chargers.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 05:27 PM
None of these same guys were predicting that the Lions would be some top team in the NFL this year or proclaimed the Lions as this "lucky team" to break out because of those picks before.

The rest of your post, 100% agree. This part, not so much. I doubt there was anyone here other than me saying the Lions weren't onto something when it was just Stafford & Johnson.. adding Suh.... pssh.

Now, I haven't resorted to the "benefits of all those picks" excuse... but the guys arguing you on this point right now have been very envious of those picks for a while.

I believe they even predicted the Lions success.

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 05:35 PM
In the past I've been told we can't be compared to the turnaround of teams like the Falcons because they had a good base, they just recovered from a bad year or two. The Texans didn't have that base.

I believe this. You can't expect Kubiak to rebuild the Texans in two years like other coaches have done, because the Texans were never built to begin with.

5 years.... yeah, we should have seen something better than a 9-7 to 6-10 regression in that time.


Now we can't be compared to the Lions because they were so bad and got so many high draft picks. The Texans didn't have the luxury of those picks.

I don't subscribe to this.... doesn't make sense. If people are saying the Lions GM has been working his ass off, accumulating first day picks & making them pay off, that's one argument with merit.

Our front office hasn't got a clue how to work the draft. Not good, if you're trying to build through the draft.

It's that blasted Texans luck; they have been too bad to get to the playoffs, but too good to get better.

Yup....

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 05:40 PM
However, I'm not ready to crown them until they face the really good NFC teams, too. Especially playing the Packers twice, because GB is a team that has had no drop-off after their championship, and it could be argued that they have actually improved with so many players coming back from injuries.
:thumbup:

Agreed.

If they beat the Packers once, I'd be impressed. If they beat the Bears at home, I'd be impressed.... not that the Bears are a great team or anything, but Urlacher won't let them lose to the Lions at home.

Minnesota..... Kansas City... pssh...

thunderkyss
10-13-2011, 05:45 PM
When the Texans do make the playoffs this year, because I do think everything is falling in place for them to do so, I'm sure how we'll hear that Kubiak proved his doubters wrong even though it took him 6 years just to make the first round. He'll get his extension and the making the playoffs will be our SB to those fans. I just wish more for AJ. He deserves better.

If Kubiak gets us to the AFC Championship game, I might say something like that.

Anything short of an AFC Championship berth, I want him gone! Gone! GONE!!!

& I think he's a good coach.
:kitten:

DexmanC
10-13-2011, 10:47 PM
If Kubiak gets us to the AFC Championship game, I might say something like that.

Anything short of an AFC Championship berth, I want him gone! Gone! GONE!!!

& I think he's a good coach.
:kitten:

:thinking:

gary
10-13-2011, 11:08 PM
AJ has chosen to be here after his rookie contract.

EllisUnit
10-14-2011, 04:34 PM
AJ has chosen to be here after his rookie contract.

yeah he is one of the few. wonder what is so appealing to the city ?

DexmanC
10-14-2011, 04:41 PM
yeah he is one of the few. wonder what is so appealing to the city ?

Can't beat "This Is It" and "The Breakfast Klub."