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View Full Version : ***reggie bush update***


kastofsna
10-06-2011, 09:50 AM
he still sucks.

False Start
10-06-2011, 09:59 AM
:lol: :goodpost:

chicagotexan2
10-06-2011, 10:12 AM
Ok by now we all know that he's has an occasional good play, but overall he's a huge dissapointment and average at best. So why in the hell does he get commercial deals?

BIG TORO
10-06-2011, 10:19 AM
Ok by now we all know that he's has an occasional good play, but overall he's a huge dissapointment and average at best. So why in the hell does he get commercial deals?

Cuz he dated Her:
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1294587535361&id=5745bd7bc7f1d18b74d14c4aef01283d

Ole Miss Texan
10-06-2011, 10:28 AM
:spit:

Not what I was expecting but HILARIOUS.

Ole Miss Texan
10-06-2011, 10:28 AM
Cuz he contracted who-knows-what from Her:
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1294587535361&id=5745bd7bc7f1d18b74d14c4aef01283d

Fixed it for ya. :headhurts:

RazorOye
10-06-2011, 10:34 AM
Darren Sproles has been amazing for us.

On track to break the record for all-purpose yards in a season.

Yea, yea.... I know.... 4 games. Lots of records on track to be broken and I don't necessarily expect Sproles to break this one.

However, that said, I have been really, really impressed with Sproles. And I consider myself somewhat sympathetic to Bush (most posters would probably agree/remember) - but the performance of Sproles isn't close.

The dude is electric. Thus far, and yes - again it's still early, Sproles has been a better everything in this offense than Bush ever was. I keep my eye on Bush's stats and catch Dolphins games when they don't conflict with other things - and I can't say I miss him.

Not when Sproles is playing like this. I always thought Bush was good on screens and in space - Sproles is better.

I don't wish Bush any ill will whatsoever - his rookie year was his most enjoyable to watch. BUt it's been a decline since then - I hope he turns it around, just because I like him as a player and what he did in/for NO. But I'll take Sproles seven days a week. And twice on Sundays.

Double Barrel
10-06-2011, 11:34 AM
Hey, Reggie, from all of Houston: YOU'RE WELCOME!!! :doot:

Dread-Head
10-06-2011, 12:46 PM
Cuz he dated Her:
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1294587535361&id=5745bd7bc7f1d18b74d14c4aef01283d

Yeah, but if you're a brotha with money...you pretty much have a shot at tappin' a Kardashian. I'm just trippin' that his CURRENT GF is some girl who got a series of ads because she LOOKS like Kim Kardashian's no talent porn start ass.

BigBull17
10-06-2011, 01:14 PM
Yeah, but if you're a brotha with money...you pretty much have a shot at tappin' a Kardashian. I'm just trippin' that his CURRENT GF is some girl who got a series of ads because she LOOKS like Kim Kardashian's no talent porn start ass.

Ever notice she ****s the talent out of brothas? They're never the same.

Double Barrel
10-06-2011, 02:33 PM
Cuz he dated Her:
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1294587535361&id=5745bd7bc7f1d18b74d14c4aef01283d

There's everything wrong with our vapid, shallow culture wrapped up on one plastic, virus-plagued package.

houstonspartan
10-06-2011, 11:56 PM
he still sucks.

LMAO!!

This thread made me laugh out loud.

Nice.

IDEXAN
10-07-2011, 01:43 PM
Is there or has there been another player in the NFL who's ever been like Bush in the sense that's he's a very, very ordinary player in terms of his contribution and real value to his team and yet has such a disproportunate value as a commercial advertising property ? For who knows what reason(s) he does seem to retain his "celebrity status" from what is by now those many years ago in college ?

Dread-Head
10-07-2011, 02:45 PM
Ever notice she #CUKs the talent out of brothas? They're never the same.

Rep Forthcoming

TexanSam
10-07-2011, 04:57 PM
Is there or has there been another player in the NFL who's ever been like Bush in the sense that's he's a very, very ordinary player in terms of his contribution and real value to his team and yet has such a disproportunate value as a commercial advertising property ? For who knows what reason(s) he does seem to retain his "celebrity status" from what is by now those many years ago in college ?

I can't think of any player in any sport that's had so much publicity about them without actually achieving anything. I wouldn't care so much if the media just shut up about him.

Corrosion
10-08-2011, 03:07 AM
The title of this thread is misleading .....


It should be re-named "Reggie Bust Update"

jtexas
10-08-2011, 08:23 AM
Darren Sproles has been amazing for us.

On track to break the record for all-purpose yards in a season.

Yea, yea.... I know.... 4 games. Lots of records on track to be broken and I don't necessarily expect Sproles to break this one.

However, that said, I have been really, really impressed with Sproles. And I consider myself somewhat sympathetic to Bush (most posters would probably agree/remember) - but the performance of Sproles isn't close.

The dude is electric. Thus far, and yes - again it's still early, Sproles has been a better everything in this offense than Bush ever was. I keep my eye on Bush's stats and catch Dolphins games when they don't conflict with other things - and I can't say I miss him.

Not when Sproles is playing like this. I always thought Bush was good on screens and in space - Sproles is better.

I don't wish Bush any ill will whatsoever - his rookie year was his most enjoyable to watch. BUt it's been a decline since then - I hope he turns it around, just because I like him as a player and what he did in/for NO. But I'll take Sproles seven days a week. And twice on Sundays.

Yeah Sproles was everything Reggie was supposed to be.

I still don't think it was a bad pick for the Saints. The guy was the most electrifying player in college football i've ever seen. Everyone agreed he was a #1 quality pick. No one predicted he would get injured and lose all confidence.

infantrycak
10-08-2011, 09:05 AM
Yeah Sproles was everything Reggie was supposed to be.

I still don't think it was a bad pick for the Saints. The guy was the most electrifying player in college football i've ever seen. Everyone agreed he was a #1 quality pick. No one predicted he would get injured and lose all confidence.

Lots of us predicted his game would not translate to the NFL.

powerfuldragon
10-08-2011, 12:08 PM
thanks for that update, kast.

mexican_texan
10-08-2011, 06:20 PM
Lots of us predicted his game would not translate to the NFL.
Correct. Injuries and confidence had little to do with his game; he never seemed to lack confidence to me.

SuperSerial
10-08-2011, 09:37 PM
Hopefully Slaton will step up and knock Bush down to the practice squad.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-08-2011, 09:51 PM
Reggie was a bust from day one. Injuries had nothing to do with it.

kastofsna
11-14-2011, 10:30 AM
this just in: reggie bush is actually not that terrible (for now). i dunno what happened. but he's playing well. 3 TDs the last 3 games, averaging 5.8 yards a carry.

of course his play is meaning that the Dolphins have won two in a row and will probably wind up winning like 5 games and draft another meaningless player and continue down the road of mediocrity for centuries to come

Dutchrudder
11-14-2011, 10:34 AM
this just in: reggie bush is actually not that terrible (for now). i dunno what happened. but he's playing well. 3 TDs the last 3 games, averaging 5.8 yards a carry.

of course his play is meaning that the Dolphins have won two in a row and will probably wind up winning like 5 games and draft another meaningless player and continue down the road of mediocrity for centuries to come

Hey man, mediocrity is not 5-11, it's 7-9, 8-8 or 9-7. Don't sully our Texans reputation with your below average team! We are not the Dolphins!!

El Tejano
11-14-2011, 10:40 AM
It's because Matt Moore is delivering the ball now.

HOU-TEX
11-14-2011, 11:16 AM
this just in: reggie bush is actually not that terrible (for now). i dunno what happened. but he's playing well. 3 TDs the last 3 games, averaging 5.8 yards a carry.

of course his play is meaning that the Dolphins have won two in a row and will probably wind up winning like 5 games and draft another meaningless player and continue down the road of mediocrity for centuries to come

Maybe due to his teammate telling him he sucked too?

thunderkyss
11-14-2011, 11:18 AM
this just in: reggie bush is actually not that terrible (for now). i dunno what happened. but he's playing well. 3 TDs the last 3 games, averaging 5.8 yards a carry.

of course his play is meaning that the Dolphins have won two in a row and will probably wind up winning like 5 games and draft another meaningless player and continue down the road of mediocrity for centuries to come

You know what the knocks on Reggie were before he was drafted. He's small, can't take the beating of the NFL.

He's proved it time & time again. Has nothing to do with his ability to make plays, he's proven he can do that as well.

kastofsna
12-06-2011, 09:29 AM
can we change the thread title to "reggie bush: actually pretty good!" he is making big plays and seems to actually look for contact on the field. he's no punishing brusing back by any means, but he is running up the middle, and he's doing it well. maybe it took 5 years longer than it should have, but it appears that Bush has learned how to run like an NFL player now. who knew?

HOU-TEX
12-06-2011, 09:33 AM
No..

The Pencil Neck
12-06-2011, 09:44 AM
can we change the thread title to "reggie bush: actually pretty good!" he is making big plays and seems to actually look for contact on the field. he's no punishing brusing back by any means, but he is running up the middle, and he's doing it well. maybe it took 5 years longer than it should have, but it appears that Bush has learned how to run like an NFL player now. who knew?

I've been impressed by him recently. At first, I thought he was busting pretty bad for you guys but he's turned it around. Steve Slaton, otoh...

RazorOye
12-06-2011, 10:07 AM
but he is running up the middle, and he's doing it well.

this isn't new for him - he was better at running between the tackles in NO than most people saw or gave him credit for. He lacked enough decisiveness, imo, and looked to make a big play every time he touched the ball - and that led to disappointing numbers. It wasn't because he couldn't do it.

I am rooting for him. I liked him as a Saint. I like what he did for the city and the franchise. And I wished him well in Miami. Glad to see him doing well. I'll always consider myself a fan of his.

gtexan02
12-06-2011, 10:10 AM
Good for him. He's finally outplaying Mario Williams this season. All it took was a season ending injury for MW and a change of scenery for Bush.

steelbtexan
12-06-2011, 10:52 AM
can we change the thread title to "reggie bush: actually pretty good!" he is making big plays and seems to actually look for contact on the field. he's no punishing brusing back by any means, but he is running up the middle, and he's doing it well. maybe it took 5 years longer than it should have, but it appears that Bush has learned how to run like an NFL player now. who knew?

Good to see you posting again.

It's almost draft time again. LOL

I'm looking forward to your imput. Will Sparano stay? How do you think the Dolphins will go in this yrs draft? QB, WR2, OLB, OL ?

kastofsna
12-09-2011, 11:05 AM
all of those would be nice. a safety is probably our biggest "need," but boy howdy i would like to get a franchise QB as well. who knows where we wind up drafting at this point, though. we're suddenly beating teams down.

kastofsna
12-18-2011, 03:00 PM
Reggie Bush has over 200 yards rushing today.

yeah. i don't know what else to say either.

Dutchrudder
12-18-2011, 03:31 PM
The Bills defense the last few weeks has been terrible, but 200 yards is a ton. Good for him and good for fantasy owners.

Texecutioner
12-18-2011, 03:37 PM
Reggie Bush has over 200 yards rushing today.

yeah. i don't know what else to say either.

Good for him. I've always enjoyed watching games he comes up big, but it doesn't happen that often. How does he struggle to put up 100 yard games all season, and then bust out 200?? Great game for him though.

thunderkyss
12-18-2011, 05:21 PM
Reggie Bush has over 200 yards rushing today.

yeah. i don't know what else to say either.

Dammit... I left him on the bench.

GuerillaBlack
12-18-2011, 07:50 PM
The next Gale Sayers. Take notice NFL.

Wolf
12-18-2011, 08:29 PM
and they called a penalty on his slide when he scored.

so it is ok to jump in to the stands in GB but not ok for a player to slide on his ass in the endzone

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Video-Reggie-Bush-gets-penalized-for-celebratin?urn=nfl-wp14128

kastofsna
12-19-2011, 10:58 AM
i think the whole "going to the ground" penalty was initially put into effect because of players going down to pray after scores. an odd rule.

The next Gale Sayers. Take notice NFL.

i'd be fine with this.

The1ApplePie
12-20-2011, 09:50 AM
And my USC/Reggie fanboyism is rewarded!

Reggie! Reggie! Reggie!

He started looking like a between-the-tackles back his last year in NO.

Seņor Stan
12-20-2011, 09:56 AM
Do it again this week in New England Reggie.

thunderkyss
12-20-2011, 10:44 AM
And my USC/Reggie fanboyism is rewarded!

Reggie! Reggie! Reggie!

He started looking like a between-the-tackles back his last year in NO.

To me, I don't care if Reggie is a between the tackles runner or not. But when they put the ball in his hands, he needs to do something with it.

The question though, is if you put Reggie in the game, who do you take out?

If you continue to call him a running back, then he is going to have to prove that he can run between the tackles & I don't care how well he does, I know he won't be able to do it often. He's still too small for that kind of work.

He still hasn't shaken that rap.

The1ApplePie
12-20-2011, 11:04 AM
To me, I don't care if Reggie is a between the tackles runner or not. But when they put the ball in his hands, he needs to do something with it.

The question though, is if you put Reggie in the game, who do you take out?

If you continue to call him a running back, then he is going to have to prove that he can run between the tackles & I don't care how well he does, I know he won't be able to do it often. He's still too small for that kind of work.

He still hasn't shaken that rap.

He's going to be a 1000-yard rusher by the end of next week, so I think he has the running back thing down.

He may be too small to take constant punishment but the workhorse back is a thing of the past with a few exceptions (Peterson, MJD) anyways. I'll take a back that gets 1500 combined yards with under 275 touches

JimBaker488
12-20-2011, 09:59 PM
He's going to be a 1000-yard rusher by the end of next week, so I think he has the running back thing down.

It took him 6 years in the league to do it, and since he'll do it just once in that period of time it's obviously got to be called an aberration.
Whoever the new HC in Miami is next year he'll probably restore Bush to his natural position of a 3rd down back. That's assuming he doesn't cut him from the roster.

Maddict5
12-21-2011, 08:33 AM
Do it again this week in New England Reggie.

you do realise NE's defence blows right?

stingray
12-21-2011, 08:59 AM
Seems like New Orleans is just not a good place to be a running back. Very few opportunities to run. Shared backfield. O-line is used to pass block rather than run block. just look at Mark Ingram this year, he didn't look very good. I bet mark ingram with a team like the Bears or the Niners would look awesome if he was the featured back.

thunderkyss
12-21-2011, 09:05 AM
you do realise NE's defence blows right?

Is everybody knocking out 200 on the ground against them?

Playoffs
12-21-2011, 09:07 AM
The next Gale Sayers. Take notice NFL.
:lol:

GP
12-21-2011, 09:57 AM
Seems like New Orleans is just not a good place to be a running back. Very few opportunities to run. Shared backfield. O-line is used to pass block rather than run block. just look at Mark Ingram this year, he didn't look very good. I bet mark ingram with a team like the Bears or the Niners would look awesome if he was the featured back.

And Ingram will be had for cheap in a few years if you're right, which I think you've nailed something here. Good post. I agree with your theory.

kiwitexansfan
12-21-2011, 11:30 AM
I hope Reggie Bust breaks off 300 yards against the Pats, whatever it takes for the Dolphins to get the W this week.

RazorOye
12-21-2011, 01:53 PM
O-line is used to pass block rather than run block. just look at Mark Ingram this year, he didn't look very good.

I disagree.

We have the best pair of mauling, road-grading OGs in the league in Nicks and Evans. These guys are beasts and they've got a journeyman C in between them in De La Puente who benefits from their excellence.

The Saints don't have the Texans running attack, this is true.

But last I checked, they were at/near the top in YPC and around the top 5/10 in rushing - and that's with all of the passing yards.

You're right that the system doesn't allow for a feature back - but that's pretty much where your argument really ends.

Ingram did look good - when healthy, but has been battling injuries. I'm not sure he was a first round pick to begin with and I can't say I feel all that confident that his career in NO will merit that high a pick.

But he also has to share time with Sproles (an absolutely electric runner - both between tackles and in space), Pierre Thomas (who is beastly on screens and is more than serviceable in the middle), and Chris Ivory who I think is actually the most talented running back of them all. He was dominant last year and I love watching the guy run. The foot injury really set him back.

So I would say that no, the OLine is not used to only or primarily pass blocking. I think our interior excels at run blocking.

And I would say that Mark Ingram - while not lighting it up - did more to merit a grade higher than "didn't look very good"

The way I see this post is you are making more than one argument:

the system doesn't feature a single back (this is true - Sproles, Thomas, Ingram, and Ivory all share the load and have different skillsets)

The Oline is used to pass blocking and not run blocking (disagree)

Mark Ingram didn't look good (disagree)

I have a lot of faith in the interior of our line. And Strief at RT can really move in space, too - more than I thought. And I think we have a strong running game that backs up the claim of run-blocking competency.

I also think people would be surprised to see how relatively balanced our offensive attack is.

Thus far, we've had 373 rushing plays vs. 585 passing plays

That's a 40% to 60% rush play to pass play percentage. So our offensive line is run blocking 40% of the time.

They also run a lot of screens (and well); you can determine whether or not that fits better in run or pass blocking responsibilities.

StarStruck
12-21-2011, 02:20 PM
I'm keeping my mouth shut. A different system could yield different results. At any rate time will tell.

stingray
12-21-2011, 05:51 PM
I disagree.

We have the best pair of mauling, road-grading OGs in the league in Nicks and Evans. These guys are beasts and they've got a journeyman C in between them in De La Puente who benefits from their excellence.

The Saints don't have the Texans running attack, this is true.

But last I checked, they were at/near the top in YPC and around the top 5/10 in rushing - and that's with all of the passing yards.

You're right that the system doesn't allow for a feature back - but that's pretty much where your argument really ends.

Ingram did look good - when healthy, but has been battling injuries. I'm not sure he was a first round pick to begin with and I can't say I feel all that confident that his career in NO will merit that high a pick.

But he also has to share time with Sproles (an absolutely electric runner - both between tackles and in space), Pierre Thomas (who is beastly on screens and is more than serviceable in the middle), and Chris Ivory who I think is actually the most talented running back of them all. He was dominant last year and I love watching the guy run. The foot injury really set him back.

So I would say that no, the OLine is not used to only or primarily pass blocking. I think our interior excels at run blocking.

And I would say that Mark Ingram - while not lighting it up - did more to merit a grade higher than "didn't look very good"

The way I see this post is you are making more than one argument:

the system doesn't feature a single back (this is true - Sproles, Thomas, Ingram, and Ivory all share the load and have different skillsets)

The Oline is used to pass blocking and not run blocking (disagree)

Mark Ingram didn't look good (disagree)

I have a lot of faith in the interior of our line. And Strief at RT can really move in space, too - more than I thought. And I think we have a strong running game that backs up the claim of run-blocking competency.

I also think people would be surprised to see how relatively balanced our offensive attack is.

Thus far, we've had 373 rushing plays vs. 418 passing plays

That's a 47% to 53% rush play to pass play percentage. So our offensive line is run blocking about half the time.

They also run a lot of screens (and well); you can determine whether or not that fits better in run or pass blocking responsibilities.

This was Ingrams rush average per attempt per game when the season started before he got hurt.

Packers - 3.1
Bears - 3.6
Texans - 4.2
Jaguars - 3.2
Panthers- 3.6
Bucs - 2.4
Colts - 6.5

The bolded against two of the worst run defenses.

Who are you kidding? I saw those games and he did not look good. Saw every game on Directv's Sunday Ticket Shortcuts.

I stand corrected on your O-line. They are pretty good overall but it's hard for any RB to get into any groove with less than 12 carries a game. I think Ingram is a ground and pound kinda back and it's pretty hard to be that back in that system.

Texecutioner
12-21-2011, 06:00 PM
Seems like New Orleans is just not a good place to be a running back. Very few opportunities to run. Shared backfield. O-line is used to pass block rather than run block. just look at Mark Ingram this year, he didn't look very good. I bet mark ingram with a team like the Bears or the Niners would look awesome if he was the featured back.

How is it that NO is not a good place for RB's, because Reggie Bush didn't play well? Lol! Bush is just not a good RB in this league and can't break tackles well. That's always been his problem in the NFL.

I'd say Sproles kills your theory this year, because he has been outstanding over there.

The only real complaint you seem to have that is valid is that it's a RB by committee system that just doesn't favor a RB's statistics to be amongst the best in the league stat wise, because they let other guys work. That's a good system in my eyes, because it doesn't grind everyone down. It gives the team better options.

stingray
12-21-2011, 06:08 PM
How is it that NO is not a good place for RB's, because Reggie Bush didn't play well? Lol! Bush is just not a good RB in this league and can't break tackles well. That's always been his problem in the NFL.

I'd say Sproles kills your theory this year, because he has been outstanding over there.

The only real complaint you seem to have that is valid is that it's a RB by committee system that just doesn't favor a RB's statistics to be amongst the best in the league stat wise, because they let other guys work. That's a good system in my eyes, because it doesn't grind everyone down. It gives the team better options.

My theory is based not just on Reggie but like I said on Ingram too.. I don't have any doubts that Mark would standout on another team being a featured back. He is a pound and ground guy who would get better as the game went along with more carries. We will find out in a couple years cause I think the same thing is going to happen with Ingram, he's going to get frustrated and go to another team to be the feature back.

And Sproles is just a different kinda back. He is so fast, that he gets a lot of open space on third downs because they expect a pass.

Texecutioner
12-21-2011, 06:33 PM
My theory is based not just on Reggie but like I said on Ingram too.. I don't have any doubts that Mark would standout on another team being a featured back. He is a pound and ground guy who would get better as the game went along with more carries. We will find out in a couple years cause I think the same thing is going to happen with Ingram, he's going to get frustrated and go to another team to be the feature back.

And Sproles is just a different kinda back. He is so fast, that he gets a lot of open space on third downs because they expect a pass.

Why would he get frustrated if they're winning?? Some backs don't want 25 carries a game. It's not like Ingram is playing bad or isn't being used. He's just in a committee, and you have to remember that certain guys get hurt every year giving other guys more reps at those times. I think he'll be used a lot eventually.

stingray
12-21-2011, 07:01 PM
Why would he get frustrated if they're winning?? Some backs don't want 25 carries a game. It's not like Ingram is playing bad or isn't being used. He's just in a committee, and you have to remember that certain guys get hurt every year giving other guys more reps at those times. I think he'll be used a lot eventually.

Winning is nice for players but they wanna get paid. They want that fat contract. And the only way they get that fat contract, especially for a running back is being "the guy" rather than "a guy."

RazorOye
12-21-2011, 07:44 PM
Who are you kidding? I saw those games and he did not look good. Saw every game on Directv's Sunday Ticket Shortcuts.

"who am I kidding?"

okay, then...

I'm not even sure it's worth continuing the discussion if that's your tack, but I'll give it one more shot.

Your argument is getting stranger and you're losing track of your own position, it seems as you begin jumping from one spot to another.

You claim you've seen enough tape on Ingram to make a determination that he's "not very good" but you had to be "corrected" on our offensive line. People that don't even watch the Saints regularly acknowledge the beastliness of the interior of our offensive line. But you weren't aware of that? That doesn't make sense. You watch the Saints, you see what our guards can do. Re-Signing Nicks in the offseason is second only to Brees's contract, imo.

And you made the claim that the OLine isn't used to blocking for the run - but they are run blocking 40% of the time (not counting those screens, but that's probably only another % point or two).

If you watched a lot of Saints football - you would know these things.

So which is it: (a) you don't watch a lot of Saints football (or watch it closely) or (b) you do watch a lot of Saints football, you just don't see the basics like our run/pass balance and the abilities of the Oline?

In either case, I'm just not sure how valid your take is here as a result.

I also don't think ground and pound is Ingram's strength. If you've watched him this year, he's actually as strong - perhaps a bit stronger on the edge - Pierre Thomas has been more 'ground and pound' consistently. And so has Chris Ivory who I think is our true ground-and-pound. Ingram has gotten stopped too easily, but when given the chance in space, he's got pretty decent footwork and good initial burst. But he seems to be someone who goes down a bit too easily to be a ground and pounder right now.

And people who envision him as Deuce 2.0 are, I think, going to be sorely disappointed.

I also find it interesting that you select two performances (against divisional foes) - from among others - and make a determination that he isn't very good. He's no AP or even CJ (in a very off year) or Arian or Marshawn - but even those guys have low ypc numbers in games.

And couldn't I employ the same strategy as you and pick out his two highest numbers to debunk your claim? I'm not going to, because I don't think it's really the best way to illustrate your point. But it just seems a bizarre way to go about it. I'm not saying Ingram has been a world beater or that he'll get ripped off if he doesn't win Offensive Rookie of the Year. Not even close. Just that he's shown more promise than a grade of "not very good." But hey, it's relative after all and ymmv. Maybe you and I have different definitions for "not very good"

Speaking of Ingram's abilities, I really don't know whether your argument is:

a. Look at Ingram's numbers, he's not very good

b. Ingram could be a dynamic, feature back

You seem to be arguing both at times. You say:

My theory is based not just on Reggie but like I said on Ingram too

But I'm not sure what your "theory" actually is

There are some pretty glaring missteps in your assessment of the Saints offense for me to put much stock in the accuracy/validity of your point (whatever it is now or might be next). Even your point about Sproles in space on third down is only part of the story. I've seen that guy pop out of tackles up the middle for gains plenty of times this year; you've watched enough Saints football to see this, no?

ultimately, it sounds like the same thing I hear from mainstream reporting on the Saints. We're a team that can't run the ball. We can't be physical. Ingram is a ground and pound back. All we do is pass. Etc.

In the end, I still only see one valid point you make that I think it absolutely true: no individual running back is going to put up monster numbers in the Saints offense. We don't run the ball as much as, say, the Texans. And we have a lot of RBs that will touch the ball a number of times over the course of a season, and even within a game.

I don't see that changing, not for Ingram. Not for anyone. It didn't for Bush even though he proved several times that he could run between the tackles. He can - I've seen it. Plenty of times.

I had no doubt he'd put up numbers in Miami - my only issue was his durability (same issue I had his entire time in NO). But the guy can run between the tackles. He can do a number of things. Gale Sayers 2.0? Again, people are setting themselves up for a disappointment. But he will put up better individual numbers in MIA than he did in NO.

stingray
12-21-2011, 08:13 PM
"who am I kidding?"

okay, then...

I'm not even sure it's worth continuing the discussion if that's your tack, but I'll give it one more shot.

Your argument is getting stranger and you're losing track of your own position, it seems as you begin jumping from one spot to another.

You claim you've seen enough tape on Ingram to make a determination that he's "not very good" but you had to be "corrected" on our offensive line. People that don't even watch the Saints regularly acknowledge the beastliness of the interior of our offensive line. But you weren't aware of that? That doesn't make sense. You watch the Saints, you see what our guards can do. Re-Signing Nicks in the offseason is second only to Brees's contract, imo.

And you made the claim that the OLine isn't used to blocking for the run - but they are run blocking 40% of the time (not counting those screens, but that's probably only another % point or two).

If you watched a lot of Saints football - you would know these things.

So which is it: (a) you don't watch a lot of Saints football (or watch it closely) or (b) you do watch a lot of Saints football, you just don't see the basics like our run/pass balance and the abilities of the Oline?

In either case, I'm just not sure how valid your take is here as a result.

I also don't think ground and pound is Ingram's strength. If you've watched him this year, he's actually as strong - perhaps a bit stronger on the edge - Pierre Thomas has been more 'ground and pound' consistently. And so has Chris Ivory who I think is our true ground-and-pound. Ingram has gotten stopped too easily, but when given the chance in space, he's got pretty decent footwork and good initial burst. But he seems to be someone who goes down a bit too easily to be a ground and pounder right now.

And people who envision him as Deuce 2.0 are, I think, going to be sorely disappointed.

I also find it interesting that you select two performances (against divisional foes) - from among others - and make a determination that he isn't very good. He's no AP or even CJ (in a very off year) or Arian or Marshawn - but even those guys have low ypc numbers in games.

And couldn't I employ the same strategy as you and pick out his two highest numbers to debunk your claim? I'm not going to, because I don't think it's really the best way to illustrate your point. But it just seems a bizarre way to go about it. I'm not saying Ingram has been a world beater or that he'll get ripped off if he doesn't win Offensive Rookie of the Year. Not even close. Just that he's shown more promise than a grade of "not very good." But hey, it's relative after all and ymmv. Maybe you and I have different definitions for "not very good"

Speaking of Ingram's abilities, I really don't know whether your argument is:

a. Look at Ingram's numbers, he's not very good

b. Ingram could be a dynamic, feature back

You seem to be arguing both at times. You say:


But I'm not sure what your "theory" actually is

There are some pretty glaring missteps in your assessment of the Saints offense for me to put much stock in the accuracy/validity of your point (whatever it is now or might be next). Even your point about Sproles in space on third down is only part of the story. I've seen that guy pop out of tackles up the middle for gains plenty of times this year; you've watched enough Saints football to see this, no?

ultimately, it sounds like the same thing I hear from mainstream reporting on the Saints. We're a team that can't run the ball. We can't be physical. Ingram is a ground and pound back. All we do is pass. Etc.

In the end, I still only see one valid point you make that I think it absolutely true: no individual running back is going to put up monster numbers in the Saints offense. We don't run the ball as much as, say, the Texans. And we have a lot of RBs that will touch the ball a number of times over the course of a season, and even within a game.

I don't see that changing, not for Ingram. Not for anyone. It didn't for Bush even though he proved several times that he could run between the tackles. He can - I've seen it. Plenty of times.

I had no doubt he'd put up numbers in Miami - my only issue was his durability (same issue I had his entire time in NO). But the guy can run between the tackles. He can do a number of things. Gale Sayers 2.0? Again, people are setting themselves up for a disappointment. But he will put up better individual numbers in MIA than he did in NO.

I watched every game of the saints on shortcuts which cuts every game into 30 minutes. I don't analyze every play of every game. There is only about a two second pause between every play so it's really hard to catch everything. I would have to rewind to catch most stuff which I don't cuz I watch other games too at the beginning of the week.

What I am saying is that Mark could be good if he was A FEATURE BACK not one of many backs. In my opinion, he didn't look good this year because he never got that many carries to get into the groove. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong and Mark can go to another team and bomb.

And yes, Sproles has bounced off many defenders. That's partly because he's going so damn fast and he's so small that the defenders can't get their hands on him. But for the most part, Sproles needs the space. This guy is perfect for this wide open sytem, just perfect.

stingray
12-21-2011, 08:21 PM
Hey Razor Eye, answer me this question? Didn't the Saints expect more from Ingram since they spent a first round pick on him. I suspect that if they had to do it all over again, they would have probably picked a defensive player in the first and picked a RB in the third or fourth. I know they picked a DE late in the first also. I think another player in the secondary would have really helped you guys.

RazorOye
12-22-2011, 07:10 AM
Hey Razor Eye, answer me this question? Didn't the Saints expect more from Ingram since they spent a first round pick on him. I suspect that if they had to do it all over again, they would have probably picked a defensive player in the first and picked a RB in the third or fourth. I know they picked a DE late in the first also. I think another player in the secondary would have really helped you guys.

I disagree that we needed someone else in the secondary. Our secondary is the strength of the defense in terms of personnel. The Saints have Malcolm Jenkins and Roman Harper as safety. We've got the NFC's most underrated CB in Greer. Patrick Robinson was a 1st rd pick last year - CB. Amazing cover skills. Needs to tackle better. Needs to learn the game better. But he's very stout. Tracy Porter - SB hero - is a good corner as well but needs to stay healthy and on the field. He and Robinson have been interchangeable as the 2nd CB behind Greer on the depth chart. The Saints also drafted another CB in an early round - Johnny Patrick.

So, among our secondary, we have a single free agent that sees a lot of playing time. The rest are made up of a couple of first rounders, a couple of second rounders, and a third round pick - all in recent years.

Our secondary's numbers are deceiving, imo, because of two things. First, teams get behind and have to pass a lot to catch or keep up. Secondly, the play of the front seven is so abysmal when it comes to QB pressure, they have a ton of time in the pocket - and coverage can only happen for so long. Our pass rush is terrible. But look at the coverage at the end of the Titans game. Game on the line, 2 passing plays run - first play, the DB played close and broke up that quick pass. Next play - coverage was tight, Locker couldn't find anyone. I find that kind of play more telling about our secondary than what we give up in the 4th quarter while in a prevent.

But I also think the breakdowns that result in someone wide open are too frequent in my liking.

Our pass rush though? Putrid. That's actually where I think the Saints would be much wiser to spend an early draft pick - especially at LB. We have special teams guys that see too much playing time. And Cam Jordan is much more a run stopper than QB pressure. Same goes for Aubrayo Franklin. Will Smith is our "pass rusher" and he's just not as good as his reputation. Our pass rushing specialist seems to be Junior Gallette - who is a one-trick pony: speed. He's been on the practice squad or inactive much of his time in NO.

We need a better pass rush, badly.

I would put our needs on defense at LB (pick one), LB (pick one), and DE before I'd start thinking about secondary.

As for what the Saints expected out of Ingram - I don't know. You'd have to ask them.

What I'd guess is this:

They knew Reggie Bush wasn't going to be back. Talks had been going on a long time - and money really wasn't the issue but rather his role and what the Saints could offer in terms of that. He wanted more time, more opportunities. They knew he wouldn't be back.

Chris Ivory - our top rusher last year - had a really nasty lisfranc injury that really lingered. There were doubts about how he'd be coming back.

We ended the season with every RB hurt except Bush and Julius Jones - whose fumble against the Seahawks and his general running that game, really cost us. At least one score. That compounded the sting of losing by 5.

So I'm thinking the Saints felt that they saw what a thin running back stables did for us in the playoffs. It's not just about regular season numbers. We need more than a single running back healthy when the playoffs roll around.

We had Bush gone. Ivory hurt. No Sproles. Pierre Thomas was injured the season before.

The running game - contrary to popular media opinion - is very important to the Saints.

We had the #6 rushing attack in 09 when we won the Super Bowl. And in order to get back, we can't have Brees be our only offensive option. Our running game has to be important. If we end up in inclement weather, on the road (in GB or SF) during the playoffs, that might make the difference.

So, no Sproles, no Bush, injured Thomas, injured Ivory. I think the Saints needed a RB - and I agree completely. Julius Jones made me a believer in that. What a miserable game.

Now, would they draft Ingram again? I've no idea. I know that the Saints were very, very high on Ingram. They gave up a second rounder for him, to get back up into the first. And that's a steep price. I'm inclined to agree with you that the Saints could've gotten a serviceable RB in a later round - I'm generally averse to a first round RB pick.

But they are still very high on Ingram. I think most people - including me - felt he would be more NFL ready. But he wasn't. There's more room for improvement and yet, I don't think his ceiling is really that high. I think he can be a very good back, but he won't be elite. He won't be Deuce 2.0.

He's a rookie. He's been dinged up. They've played it safe with him. I think what they expected was his having an impact in the postseason following what happened last year. They are being conservative to get him as healthy as possible. I anticipate more playing time for him come playoffs, actually. Sean Payton really likes him - I actually think he tries too hard to give him the ball. Against the Pack, for example, I think Pierre Thomas should've gotten that final carry - if you're going to run it.

He won't be Adrian Peterson-first round-pick-good. But he'll be better than Blair-Thomas-first-round-pick-disappointing. Where along that spectrum he falls, I really don't know. But I know I'm hoping for better-than-Julius-Jones.

Maddict5
12-22-2011, 07:21 AM
Is everybody knocking out 200 on the ground against them?

dont worry im not hating on reggie, im glad to see hes improved. dont really care anymore about the 06 draft tbh. everyone knows & recognises we made the right decision now anyways so no bitternes towards him now at all

he got 200 v a pretty poor bills D not the pats. it was just stan's post made it sound like the pats had a vaunted D where it would be difficult to suceed against- which they're not. in reality, while 200 yds is an achievement in any game, its alot more impressive v a good D

thunderkyss
12-22-2011, 08:06 AM
Hey Razor Eye, answer me this question? Didn't the Saints expect more from Ingram since they spent a first round pick on him.

I think those plans went out the window when they started putting the ball in Sproles' hands.

I think Ingram is doing fine, but if you're an offensive genius & Sproles ends up in your camp I think that changes your plans with your personnel.....

It's kinda like trading back into the second round to draft Brandon Harris then you find out you've got two first round talents fighting for that spot...........


What do you do?

kastofsna
12-29-2011, 08:34 AM
can we steer the discussion back to Reggie Bush, the best player in the history of the NFL? thanks.

1,086 yards this season, a healthy 5.0 yards per carry. between he and Matt Moore looking pretty darn solid, this offense has some interesting potential in the future. i dunno what to expect, because Miami likes to be Miami sometimes and crap the bed and be the most mediocre team imaginable.

thunderkyss
12-29-2011, 08:36 AM
because Miami likes to be Miami sometimes ...

I'd play better just being in Miami, I mean compared to that "city" they call NOLA