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CloakNNNdagger
09-30-2011, 07:38 PM
The Washington Post reports:

Texans try to fix breakdowns inside the 20-yard line with Steelers up next (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/texans-try-to-fix-breakdowns-inside-the-20-yard-line-with-steelers-up-next/2011/09/30/gIQApvpjAL_story.html)
Friday, September 30, 4:53 PM

HOUSTON — Houston coach Gary Kubiak started the week by meeting with his offense and reviewing all the Texans’ plays inside the 20-yard line over the first three games.

No one liked much of what they saw.

The Texans (2-1) are tied with New England for the most trips inside the so-called red zone with 16, but they have only five touchdowns to show for it. The inefficiency cost them in a 40-33 loss to New Orleans last week, and correcting the problem has been the focus heading into Sunday’s game against Pittsburgh (2-1).

“It hadn’t been good enough, so we’ve got to do something different, something better,” Kubiak said. “I’ve got to call things better. We’ve got to block better, run better, throw better.

“That’s part of football,” he said. “Some things you’re doing good; some things you’re not doing good and you work hard to fix them.”

Houston should get a boost this week, with Arian Foster expected to start after sitting out two of first three games to nurse a strained left hamstring. Foster led the league in rushing -- and rushing touchdowns, with 16 -- last season.

“If you’ve got to play block for two (yards), he’ll find a way to get three or four,” Kubiak said. “He’s always been that way and he’s tough to tackle down there and make somebody tackle him three times. He’s usually pretty successful down there. He was a big difference last year.”

But everyone agrees that the formula for more red-zone success involves more than just handing the ball to Foster instead of Ben Tate, who rushed for over 100 yards in Houston’s first two games.

The Texans rank fifth in rushing (138 yards per game) behind an experienced offensive line, but the offense has produced no gain or lost yardage on 21 of its 51 plays run inside the opponents’ 20.

“When you’re in the run game, and there’s not a lot of space, and there’s 22 bodies within three yards of space, it’s going to be about who wants it more, a battle of will,” quarterback Matt Schaub said. “But it’s also about execution, too, and being smart with what you’re trying to get done.”

The Texans have averaged only 1.8 yards on their 16 initial plays in the red zone, immediately creating more pressure for Schaub and limiting Kubiak’s play-calling options.

Houston scored three touchdowns on six red-zone visits in a 34-7 win over Indianapolis in the opener. Since then, the Texans have mustered only two touchdowns in 10 drives inside the 20.

“I think the last two weeks, first-and-10, we’d run the ball, (then face) second-and-10, second-and-nine, second-and-11, so you’re off schedule,” Kubiak said. “Against New Orleans, we had three second (down) and less than three yards, and we went backward. You can’t have negative football plays ... Find a way to save the play.”

Scoring touchdowns won’t be much easier on Sunday. The Steelers’ defense has allowed nine red-zone visits and only four touchdowns.

“I’m pretty sure on every team, when you get in the red zone, guys are probably in the huddle (saying), ‘Hey man, we need to get seven points here,’” All-Pro receiver Andre Johnson said. “But that’s what makes this game so challenging, because you have a defense out there trying to make you go three-and-out. Unfortunately, we haven’t been able to score as many touchdowns as we would like, but I think we’ll get it fixed.”

Johnson said Monday’s film session showed every offensive player what he needs to do better.

“It’s not just one guy. It’s everybody,” he said. “You may have a guy may miss a block or a pass that may have been dropped in the flat or something like that, that a guy could have turned up. You just have to make those plays and, like coach Kubiak said in the meeting, when you get down in the red zone, every time you catch a ball or run a ball, you want to make sure you’re going forward and not going backward.”

Notes: CB Kareem Jackson (right knee) did not practice on Friday, and Kubiak said his availability will be a “game-time decision.” Veteran Jason Allen would start in Jackson’s place. ... RB Derrick Ward will sit out Sunday’s game to nurse a right ankle sprain.

Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


I think people are just fooling themselves. There is something terribly wrong........lots more than just not having Foster. If you just have a mediocre RB, mediocre QB, mediocre WRs, mediocre line........and even a mediocre coach, you should be able to scrounge up more than an average of 1.8 yds per attempt...........and we are not talking about only 2-3 yd goal stances.........we are talking about some red zone attempts being well away from the goal line within that 20 yd distance from the goal line. No, something other than the absence of Foster is just not right.

ATXtexanfan
09-30-2011, 07:49 PM
i just think schaub doesn't have that touch within ten yards. i swear our wr's have to work to catch his passes, it's as if he has no short or deep game but is solid from 10-40 yds. he can't throw a quick slant to save his life it seems. you would think with AJ we would throw that slant more often but we don't. we also dont have that dude to throw a jump ball to ala plax. maybe foster will help but i put it on schaub

Tailgate
09-30-2011, 07:55 PM
Aran Foster

drunkcookie
09-30-2011, 07:59 PM
I think it's been the play calling the last two weeks...

they had one RB that they had faith in (see Slaton shown the door)... I feel a Ward/Tate combination would have produced more in the redzone , not just Foster... They tried drawing other things up, and it didn't work...

Foster coming back healthy should fix it is what I'm thinking... Ward coming back and Foster still being out would help fix it also IMO... How many times did we see Foster or Ward do well between the 20s, then the other come in with rest and make it happen in the redzone? They have yet to have that option this year...

But just my opinion... I don't see any other difference between last year and this year that would suggest that something else is wrong...

[I don't see Leach being gone as a difference effecting the redzone offense just yet...I may be proven wrong... we'll see at the end of the year...]

CloakNNNdagger
09-30-2011, 08:15 PM
I guess then there are no teams out there that can punch it in without a star RB?

drunkcookie
09-30-2011, 08:20 PM
I guess then there are no teams out there that can punch it in without a star RB?

Which is why I said it's the play-calling... with a healthy 1-2 punch, the offensive staff has confidence in what made them a good redzone team last year... they haven't had that this year, have strayed from it and done a bad job of replacing it...

Running once in the redzone and passing the other two downs isn't what the Texans were doing in the redzone last year...

CloakNNNdagger
09-30-2011, 08:23 PM
Which is why I said it's the play-calling... with a healthy 1-2 punch, the offensive staff has confidence in what made them a good redzone team last year... they haven't had that this year, have strayed from it and done a bad job of replacing it...

Running once in the redzone and passing the other two downs isn't what the Texans were doing in the redzone last year...

No argument there at all.

Texan_Bill
09-30-2011, 08:24 PM
Re: Texans Trying to Fix inside the 20 Breakdowns


:thinking:


ARIAN FREAKIN' FOSTER!

Problem Sol-Ved!!

Dutchrudder
09-30-2011, 08:25 PM
So why exactly do we not have any plays that involve AJ going to the corner on a fade route? I see it work against us, but I never seen them try that with AJ. His number doesn't seem to be called much inside the red zone.

CloakNNNdagger
09-30-2011, 08:48 PM
So why exactly do we not have any plays that involve AJ going to the corner on a fade route? I see it work against us, but I never seen them try that with AJ. His number doesn't seem to be called much inside the red zone.

It's either a pitching problem or a catching problem..........and I'm betting that it's not the latter.:kitten:

ObsiWan
09-30-2011, 08:49 PM
It's on the players. I don't care what you call, if the players don't execute properly or half-azz execute their assignment or fail to execute altogether, then the play will FAIL.

There's one play that sticks in my craw from the Saints game. I think it was 3rd & goal on about the 9; we were up 10-7 so it was mid 2nd qtr. KW was wide left, AJ was wide right but in motion to the left. Casey was the lone HB and OD was tight on the right and Dreessen was tight on the right. The play was supposed to be a quick 3-step drop (I base that assessment on the short patterns that were being run). Schaub threw the ball in AJ's direction on his first step back. In fact he threw some kind of bozo jump pass thing that was behind AJ. Had he waited just one more second for the play to properly develop, he could have hit Dreessen about two yds deep in the endzone because AJ and OD were on the right and Casey was coming out of the backfield in that direction. So three receivers in the same area got the attention of the Saints DBs leaving Dreessen wide open. Instead, he threw it early - AJ wasn't even looking back yet. The Saints were dropping back into zone, so there was no blitz in his face.

A little bit of patience, a little bit of redzone poise and we would have had six instead of kicking our second FG in a row.

The play's strategy worked perfectly; get the D worried about the overload on the right then throw it left. But poor execution resulted in FAIL.

So I don't care what you draw up in the dirt. If the players don't execute it properly, chances are the play will fail.

Scooter
09-30-2011, 08:50 PM
i think it's a number of things. it all starts up front and as we know we dont have the offensive line or scheme to brute force our way in closer quarters. from there, tate doesnt yet have the vision to make the most of the tiny lanes that we do open. foster will overcome those deficiencies. finally, schaub gets increasingly jittery the closer we get to the endzone and playcalling didnt help him much against the saints. we need more leaks and dumps (teehee) in the redzone to keep him comfortable.

Texan_Bill
09-30-2011, 08:50 PM
So why exactly do we not have any plays that involve AJ going to the corner on a fade route? I see it work against us, but I never seen them try that with AJ. His number doesn't seem to be called much inside the red zone.

:hmmm: Generally speaking, Because they 16 people on him. :slapfight:

No seriously, that's part of it but also partially true.

badboy
09-30-2011, 09:28 PM
I would like to see more receptions inside the 50 taken to the house. How many TDs were results of a pass outside of the 30. Don't need a power back or goal line stance for those points.

Brisco_County
09-30-2011, 10:46 PM
The Washington Post reports:




I think people are just fooling themselves. There is something terribly wrong........lots more than just not having Foster. If you just have a mediocre RB, mediocre QB, mediocre WRs, mediocre line........and even a mediocre coach, you should be able to scrounge up more than an average of 1.8 yds per attempt...........and we are not talking about only 2-3 yd goal stances.........we are talking about some red zone attempts being well away from the goal line within that 20 yd distance from the goal line. No, something other than the absence of Foster is just not right.

You're pointing out something that has been sticking in the back of my mind and I don't want to admit-- More often than not, Schaub appears to not think clearly under pressure. We've all seen the examples. It seemed worse than I've ever seen it during the Saints game. My dad told me Kubiak had some words with him. Now it's something I'll have to watch for.

leebigeztx
10-01-2011, 03:22 AM
Redzone failures are a direct result of qb indecision. If you think or pulled up all the average redzone teams, it points to qb play.

In the redzone, the accuracy of a qb is really highlighted. Also, the ability of the qb to fit a ball in a tight space unless the team can run it in. Houston has been a godd red zone team 1 time under kubes and that was last season.

SheTexan
10-01-2011, 09:09 AM
It's either a pitching problem or a catching problem..........and I'm betting that it's not the latter.:kitten:


Bingo!! MS ain't no Drew Brees, and never will be!!

Tailgate
10-01-2011, 09:22 AM
Did we have a good redzone offense last year? Yes. Has our offensive scheme changed? No. Have we only played 3 games? Yes. What is the missing link from last year? Arian Foster. Why? Who cares as long as Foster is healthy.

Joeycharp89
10-01-2011, 09:52 AM
[I don't see Leach being gone as a difference effecting the redzone offense just yet...I may be proven wrong... we'll see at the end of the year...]

I'm actually becoming a little worried about this. Seeing a few plays of Casey blocking for Tate, well they don't look as clean as Vonta's blocks. I'm hoping he improves though, since he brings so many other assets to the position.

DocBar
10-01-2011, 10:02 AM
Has Vickers been in on any of these plays? The one player we're missing from last year is Leach.

Joeycharp89
10-01-2011, 10:25 AM
Has Vickers been in on any of these plays? The one player we're missing from last year is Leach.

I haven't seen him. According to an injury report I just spotted he's been sick.

Rey
10-01-2011, 10:42 AM
Has Vickers been in on any of these plays? The one player we're missing from last year is Leach.

Arian?


I liked Leach as much as the next guy, but Arian is the main piece missing from this offense. If he can come back healthy it will be huge to this team.

And I think Kubiak should mix Vickers in some...Maybe like 96.6766904948% Casey, and 3.3233095052% to Vickers.

In the redzone it should be about 70-30 though. :breakdance:

drunkcookie
10-01-2011, 10:49 AM
Regarding with or without Leach....

In TexanChick's blog sometime in April (thanks Google), she came up with some numbers:

Foster with Leach in the game had a 75% conversion rate...

Foster without Leach in the game had a 73% conversion rate...

http://blog.chron.com/texanschick/2011/04/vonta-leach-texans-tight-ends-affect-on-arian-foster-short-yardage-runs/

El Tejano
10-01-2011, 10:59 AM
Leach was in when Chris Brown couldn't punch it in against the Cardinals and Jaguars. I do agree that maybe Vickers gives us a little more push from the one though.

DocBar
10-01-2011, 11:01 AM
Arian?


I liked Leach as much as the next guy, but Arian is the main piece missing from this offense. If he can come back healthy it will be huge to this team.

And I think Kubiak should mix Vickers in some...Maybe like 96.6766904948% Casey, and 3.3233095052% to Vickers.

In the redzone it should be about 70-30 though. :breakdance:

Regarding with or without Leach....

In TexanChick's blog sometime in April (thanks Google), she came up with some numbers:

Foster with Leach in the game had a 75% conversion rate...

Foster without Leach in the game had a 73% conversion rate...

http://blog.chron.com/texanschick/2011/04/vonta-leach-texans-tight-ends-affect-on-arian-foster-short-yardage-runs/I was thinking along the lines of a true FB in there rather than just Leach. Of course Foster being back will be the biggest boost we could get, but using a true FB in short yardgae situations ain't a bad idea. If Vickers is on the team and active, he might as well earn soem of that money he's making.

drunkcookie
10-01-2011, 11:05 AM
I was thinking along the lines of a true FB in there rather than just Leach. Of course Foster being back will be the biggest boost we could get, but using a true FB in short yardgae situations ain't a bad idea. If Vickers is on the team and active, he might as well earn soem of that money he's making.

I agree, i'd like to see him tried there myself...

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

thunderkyss
10-01-2011, 11:21 AM
Bingo!! MS ain't no Drew Brees, and never will be!!

I just started listening to 790 recently.... (thanks to the recommendations of TT.com users), so I don't know any of the guys names. They had someone on the other day who evidently has a lot of access to the Texans; sounds like he's in practices, the locker room, converse with all the coaches & players...

He mentioned that Schaub's biggest issue (in his opinion & he might not have been nobody) is that he doesn't take chances, he doesn't give the receivers an opportunity to make a play.

That was also my biggest gripe about David Carr. He'd rather take a sack than put it up for Andre. & on the few occasions when he tried, he put the ball in the one place you shouldn't, giving the defeder better access to it than Andre.

I don't believe Matt has that same problem to that same degree..... that pass he threw to Casey for the TD.... That was beautiful. The one to Andre in the endzone of the Redskins game last year... don't know if I'd have thrown that one.

But that ball that Kolb threw to Fitz in that Seattle game Sunday, I'm glad Matt don't take chances like that.

Those high balls he throws to JJ, I think that's just him getting to know JJ & how high he can jump. Playing conservative... I don't know what's taking so long, maybe a consistency issue on JJ's part. But once they get their connection going I think we'll start to see JJ in a different light.

thunderkyss
10-01-2011, 11:25 AM
It's either a pitching problem or a catching problem..........and I'm betting that it's not the latter.:kitten:

It depends on what you consider, "The best WR in all of football"

I like Andre, & I think he's the best. But I don't think he's got the ups or hight advantage of Plax or Megatron.

We're going to throw the football a lot & the odds are pretty good we're going to be throwing it to Andre. Defenses Game-Plan around him DCs dedicated two or three defenders to him on almost every route.

But the SOB gets WTFO with regularity.

In the redzone, when the field is smaller...... not so much.

As good as he is, I don't think he's the "throw it up & let him get it" kind of best WR in the league, that would be Megatron.

Rey
10-01-2011, 12:00 PM
As good as he is, I don't think he's the "throw it up & let him get it" kind of best WR in the league, that would be Megatron.

I think CJ is the best WR in Football right now.

I disagree that Andre can't go up and get balls over most DB's.

HJam72
10-01-2011, 12:04 PM
I agree about Schaub not taking chances.

3rd and 4 on about the 9 in the Red Zone. Schaub drops back, sees that nobody is immediately open, feels pressure from the right, & promptly throws the ball in the dirt (arguably near some pretense of a receiving threat). We kick a field goal.

If Schaub had taken a sack, we'd STILL have gotten a field goal. If he scrambled to his left, somebody might actually get open. I believe AJ was on his left, by the way. It was also 3rd and 4, as in I'm thinking just maybe, JUST MAYBE Schaub can actually scramble for 4 yards. Like I said, if he took a sack it wouldn't have really hurt anything. If he ran for 1 yd., it wouldn't have really hurt anything. In fact, the only thing he could have done wrong was throw the ball without it going to an open receiver, which IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID. No it wasn't a pick, but he had no reason to throw the ball yet. Sometimes plays are made, not planned, but not with Schaub. Schaub has to be preprogrammed.

DocBar
10-01-2011, 12:08 PM
I agree about Schaub not taking chances.

3rd and 4 on about the 9 in the Red Zone. Schaub drops back, sees that nobody is immediately open, feels pressure from the right, & promptly throws the ball in the dirt (arguably near some pretense of a receiving threat). We kick a field goal.

If Schaub had taken a sack, we'd STILL have gotten a field goal. If he scrambled to his left, somebody might actually get open. I believe AJ was on his left, by the way. It was also 3rd and 4, as in I'm thinking just maybe, JUST MAYBE Schaub can actually scramble for 4 yards. Like I said, if he took a sack it wouldn't have really hurt anything. If he ran for 1 yd., it wouldn't have really hurt anything. In fact, the only thing he could have done wrong was throw the ball without it going to an open receiver, which IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID. No it wasn't a pick, but he had no reason to throw the ball yet. Sometimes plays are made, not planned, but not with Schaub. Schaub has to be preprogrammed.I see more fumbles and injuries in this line of thinking than anything else. Schaub scrambles when he can, he's just not very good at it. Not Bernie Kosar or Dan Marino bad, but still bad.
I would like to see more fade routes in the redzone. AJ might not have the hops of Megatron or Plax, but he's got the hops to get higher than 90% of the QB's he goes against.

drunkcookie
10-01-2011, 12:13 PM
AJ might not have the hops of Megatron or Plax, but he's got the hops to get higher than 90% of the QB's he goes against.

Like that time Warner was covering him when we played Arizona... lol, had to...

Rey
10-01-2011, 12:14 PM
I agree about Schaub not taking chances.

3rd and 4 on about the 9 in the Red Zone. Schaub drops back, sees that nobody is immediately open, feels pressure from the right, & promptly throws the ball in the dirt (arguably near some pretense of a receiving threat). We kick a field goal.

If Schaub had taken a sack, we'd STILL have gotten a field goal. If he scrambled to his left, somebody might actually get open. I believe AJ was on his left, by the way. It was also 3rd and 4, as in I'm thinking just maybe, JUST MAYBE Schaub can actually scramble for 4 yards. Like I said, if he took a sack it wouldn't have really hurt anything. If he ran for 1 yd., it wouldn't have really hurt anything. In fact, the only thing he could have done wrong was throw the ball without it going to an open receiver, which IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID. No it wasn't a pick, but he had no reason to throw the ball yet. Sometimes plays are made, not planned, but not with Schaub. Schaub has to be preprogrammed.

That was one of my problems that I have had with Shammy. This year though, he has looked much better overall at making plays when the pocket breaks down.

He's not Michael Vick or Drew Brees, but he has gotten out of the pocket when pressure has come to get a "second look" down field. Too bad he hasn't gashed defenses too much while doing it...Part of the problem is that they know he doesn't want to run the ball...even to pick up two or three yards...

But Schaub is very good and despite some of his warts we can win big with him...Another really good receiving threat would be excellent. In a perfect world, I'd like to add top tier talent at WR and let KW, Jacoby and unnamed WR to play pretty evenly at the #2 & #3...but a WR good enough to reduce KW's snaps would be awesome...

HJam72
10-01-2011, 12:16 PM
I see more fumbles and injuries in this line of thinking than anything else. Schaub scrambles when he can, he's just not very good at it. Not Bernie Kosar or Dan Marino bad, but still bad.
I would like to see more fade routes in the redzone. AJ might not have the hops of Megatron or Plax, but he's got the hops to get higher than 90% of the QB's he goes against.

Meh, I don't think he's THAT wimpy. He just needs to try. He's slow, yes, but the guy just throws the ball in the dirt on 3rd and 4 from the 9 when it's only been about 3 seconds since the snap and he doesn't have a perfect pocket. I can deal with that on 1st and 10 from the 50, but that's a whole different story. Looks to me like the only time Schaub "scrambles" is when the play calls for it on a fake hand-off....and that's really not a scramble. Besides, he could have even taken off straight horizontally for the sideline just to buy time. He doesn't even try to make anything happen. It's the script, the ball in the stands, or the ball in the dirt...

CloakNNNdagger
10-01-2011, 12:52 PM
Regarding with or without Leach....

In TexanChick's blog sometime in April (thanks Google), she came up with some numbers:

Foster with Leach in the game had a 75% conversion rate...

Foster without Leach in the game had a 73% conversion rate...

http://blog.chron.com/texanschick/2011/04/vonta-leach-texans-tight-ends-affect-on-arian-foster-short-yardage-runs/

One set of stats that are not reported is WHEN Leach was in to block for Foster. It would be interesting to know if Leach was there to block more in the 3rd and 4th quarters when Foster would be more tired and less likely to get that push on his own.

drs23
10-01-2011, 01:41 PM
One set of stats that are not reported is WHEN Leach was in to block for Foster. It would be interesting to know if Leach was there to block more in the 3rd and 4th quarters when Foster would be more tired and less likely to get that push on his own.

There's probably some truth in there though it's always appeared to me that Arian gets stronger as the game goes on. I've not really seen his effectiveness decline late in the game. Could just be my perception I guess but that's the way it looks to me.

drunkcookie
10-01-2011, 03:11 PM
There's probably some truth in there though it's always appeared to me that Arian gets stronger as the game goes on. I've not really seen his effectiveness decline late in the game. Could just be my perception I guess but that's the way it looks to me.

Well we also had Ward who could provide some quality rest for Foster (quality as in not a lot of decline at RB when Foster sat), as opposed to what Slaton was doing for Tater the past two games...

We'll just have to wait and see on this one...

CloakNNNdagger
10-01-2011, 04:05 PM
There's probably some truth in there though it's always appeared to me that Arian gets stronger as the game goes on. I've not really seen his effectiveness decline late in the game. Could just be my perception I guess but that's the way it looks to me.

That appearance could be relative to the D's condition........because his lead blocker has helped to tire and wear down the D as the game progressed.

drunkcookie
10-01-2011, 04:25 PM
That appearance could be relative to the D's condition........because his lead blocker has helped to tire and wear down the D as the game progressed.

Hmmm... interesting thought there... but I doubt one player made the difference in a D being wore down or not... the five offensive linemen had five x as much to do with that as Leach did...

GP
10-01-2011, 04:28 PM
Since I've had ONE person (EDIT: TWO, actually) who has dogged me relentlessly, alleging that I don't know what I'm talking about and that I am just attacking Kubiak for the sake of attacking Kubiak......this one's for you, sirs (from the article):

“It hadn’t been good enough, so we’ve got to do something different, something better,” Kubiak said. “I’ve got to call things better. We’ve got to block better, run better, throw better.

“That’s part of football,” he said. “Some things you’re doing good; some things you’re not doing good and you work hard to fix them.”

Now, I have never said that the whole blame is upon Kubiak. I have said that it was my theory that Dennison is calling plays between the 20's and then Kubiak comes along and takes control of plays in the red zone or in "critical" situations.

I believe that Dennison should be given the chance to call a whole game. He's the o-coordinator. He has shown that he can direct traffic between the 20's. Why not give him the chance to show he can pitch a complete game from start to finish?

Well, one thing IS settled: Kubiak is calling the plays in the red zone. And no, InfantryCak, it is not "one isolated incident from two years ago in Jacksonville."

Here it is, irrefutable PROOF that I was right: Kubiak is calling plays in the red zone, not Dennison.

Dennison is the between the 20s guy, Kubiak the red zone guy. And if a stupid fan like GP can figure this out, so can NFL coaches on 31 other teams. Which means there's a level of predictability from the style of Dennison to the style of Kubiak.

Opposing defenses know what we'll do between then 20s and they (opposing defenses) can sit down on the scouting of Kubiak's previous years of red zone calls. In other words: Bend to us while we're between the 20s, hunker down and take calculated risks when we're in the red zone.

mugrakers
10-01-2011, 04:53 PM
Has Vickers been in on any of these plays? The one player we're missing from last year is Leach.

lol yea we're obviously not missing Arian Foster... lolz lolz lolz

jaayteetx
10-01-2011, 05:04 PM
lol yea we're obviously not missing Arian Foster... lolz lolz lolz

whats the "z" for?

GP
10-01-2011, 05:10 PM
“We had what we wanted, but obviously, it didn't work out,” Kubiak said. “It was a tough spot to put Chris in. It ends up just being a bad call by me, a poor call. It's on me. I thought it gave us a chance for any easy score, but I was wrong.”

From the same article (I have added red to the text that is most important):

Although the Texans were able to storm back to score on their next possession — taking nine snaps to march 46 yards without a bit of treachery or deception – they were down to four minutes after Andre Johnson cradled the 1-yard touchdown pass, and then the defense couldn't force the Jaguars off the field.

The above was a 2009 article (http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Texans-gadget-short-circuits-in-key-moment-of-1623000.php)written after the loss to the Jaguars, at jacksonville, when Kubiak called a halfback pass on FIRST DOWN near the goal line. Opting to use a gadget play, rather than allowing his QB to throw a pass with perhaps better odds of getting a completion, Kubiak chose trickery. On first down.

I am not claiming that no fault should be given to the player(s) who do not execute a play correctly or to their full potential.

And I disagree with Solomon who said in his own 2009 article (http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Solomon-Losses-not-bad-calls-merit-Kubiak-s-1738430.php) that losses, not bad play calls, would be Kubiak's undoing if he is ever fired...the truth is that Kubiak is responsible for red zone woes just as he is also responsible for the successes in the red zone. And if red zone failures lead to losses, especially when those losses should have been wins in the first place, then the root problem IS the red zone play calling.

This team flows between the 20's, IMO, because it has utmost confidence in Dennison's ability to call the right plays at the right time (in Kyle Shanahan's last year here, the Texans began flowing in much the same way they are with Dennison). When we get into scoring territory, you can see the hesitancy. You can feel the anxiousness and the tightened nerves in all Texans players. You can cut the tension with a knife. Even sitting at home, you also sit there and get butterflies because you know for the past 5+ years the red zone is a devil for this offense.

Just watch, please. Make notes of how we look between the 20's and how we look near the goal line. Look at the body language of the players (which reveals their inner confidence in their chances at 6 points vs. 3 points). Look at Kubiak. Notice your own level of anxiety when between the 20's vs. in a red zone environment.

Part of Kubiak's legacy will be the creation of a very good offense and the stockpiling of proper players for it. But will part of his legacy also be his fluctuating success/failure in calling plays in the red zone? It could.

He should let Dennison have a few series where Dennison calls ALL of the plays. Just one game, to see if it fits.

GP
10-01-2011, 05:13 PM
I haven't seen him. According to an injury report I just spotted he's been sick.

He is in on a special teams play vs. the Saints. He lost his helmet and almost got in a fight with a few Saints players...refs and a bunch of players from both sides almost got in a big fight as a result of whatever altercation had just happened with Vickers.

Vickers might be a fighter. He's been in a lot of on-field scuffles in his past years with his former teams. He went to Ray Lewis and got right in his face PRE-GAME vs. Ravens when he (Vickers) was with the Browns.

Rey
10-01-2011, 05:29 PM
GP, I think you are wrong about kubiak taking over play calling in the redzone.

I think dennison suggest plays throughout the game and since he has a birds eye view of things I think he let's kubiak know what the other teams' defense is doing and things like that.

I think kubiak has final say on offense, but I think dennison is heavily involved.

I just don't see kubiak giving dennison free reign in-between the twenties and the taking control in the red zone.

GP
10-01-2011, 05:37 PM
GP, I think you are wrong about kubiak taking over play calling in the redzone.

I think dennison suggest plays throughout the game and since he has a birds eye view of things I think he let's kubiak know what the other teams' defense is doing and things like that.

I think kubiak has final say on offense, but I think dennison is heavily involved.

I just don't see kubiak giving dennison free reign in-between the twenties and the taking control in the red zone.

Kubiak is stubborn. Evidence does not support your theory, I'm afraid.

Remember the offseason that year when Kubiak said "Kyle has shown that he can call plays, and they all joked with me and we've kinda' agreed that it's time for him to do that and for me to be more of a head coach and handle other things more..." (paraphrasing there, obviously).

Well, old habits die hard. I'm not slamming Kubiak, just making observations based on what the guy HIMSELF says.

Even if Dennison IS somehow calling plays in the red zone, what percentage of those do you think Kubiak is agreeing with and what percentage do you think Kubiak is taking over and thinking "Hell, I think we ought to do ___ right here. That'll work." I think it's easily 10 or 15% one way and 90 or 85% the other way.

But my gut tells me Dennison is done once we get near the end zone. This is where Kubiak licks his chops and wants to dial up the perfect play in his mind for the situations we're in down there. The body language alone tells me that. It's like letting your kid drive the pickup, but you don't trust him to back it up to the gooseneck trailer...you take over and handle that bit of difficult maneuvering.

And more importantly, the stark difference between how we look between the 20's and when we're near a TD tells me the most.

ObsiWan
10-01-2011, 05:49 PM
Since I've had ONE person (EDIT: TWO, actually) who has dogged me relentlessly, alleging that I don't know what I'm talking about and that I am just attacking Kubiak for the sake of attacking Kubiak......this one's for you, sirs (from the article):



Now, I have never said that the whole blame is upon Kubiak. I have said that it was my theory that Dennison is calling plays between the 20's and then Kubiak comes along and takes control of plays in the red zone or in "critical" situations.

I believe that Dennison should be given the chance to call a whole game. He's the o-coordinator. He has shown that he can direct traffic between the 20's. Why not give him the chance to show he can pitch a complete game from start to finish?

Well, one thing IS settled: Kubiak is calling the plays in the red zone. And no, InfantryCak, it is not "one isolated incident from two years ago in Jacksonville."

Here it is, irrefutable PROOF that I was right: Kubiak is calling plays in the red zone, not Dennison.

Dennison is the between the 20s guy, Kubiak the red zone guy. And if a stupid fan like GP can figure this out, so can NFL coaches on 31 other teams. Which means there's a level of predictability from the style of Dennison to the style of Kubiak.

Opposing defenses know what we'll do between then 20s and they (opposing defenses) can sit down on the scouting of Kubiak's previous years of red zone calls. In other words: Bend to us while we're between the 20s, hunker down and take calculated risks when we're in the red zone.

You're still postulating. There is absolutely nothing in that quote that says, "irrefutably" who called which plays. For all we know Kubiak calls the plays from 20 to 20 and Dennison calls all the red zone plays.
The only thing that is irrefutable about the play calling is that
We. Don't. Know.

That "I've got to call better plays" statement is another example, IMHO, where Kubiak went into his usual and customary "The Buck Stops Here" mode where he refuses to throw his coaches/coordinators under the bus.

Oh and I like the way you ignored the player responsibility that Kubiak pointed out. "We've got to block better, run better, throw better".

As I said before, I don't care what play is called, if the players don't execute it properly - i.e., block better, run better, throw better, catch better (yeah, that's meant for you Tate and JJ!) - it will not work.

thunderkyss
10-01-2011, 06:23 PM
Now, I have never said that the whole blame is upon Kubiak. I have said that it was my theory that Dennison is calling plays between the 20's and then Kubiak comes along and takes control of plays in the red zone or in "critical" situations.

I believe that Dennison should be given the chance to call a whole game. He's the o-coordinator. He has shown that he can direct traffic between the 20's. Why not give him the chance to show he can pitch a complete game from start to finish?

Well, one thing IS settled: Kubiak is calling the plays in the red zone. And no, InfantryCak, it is not "one isolated incident from two years ago in Jacksonville."

Here it is, irrefutable PROOF that I was right: Kubiak is calling plays in the red zone, not Dennison.

Dennison is the between the 20s guy, Kubiak the red zone guy. And if a stupid fan like GP can figure this out, so can NFL coaches on 31 other teams. Which means there's a level of predictability from the style of Dennison to the style of Kubiak.


Here's the problem. You start off with your theory, then a few sentences later you act as if it is fact. There is nothing irrefutable about what you have posted, for all we know, Kubiak calls the whole game. For all we know Kubiak is referring to not using his Veto power or not offering a better suggestion, or just going with whatever Dennison calls up.

ObsiWan
10-01-2011, 06:35 PM
Here's the problem. You start off with your theory, then a few sentences later you act as if it is fact. There is nothing irrefutable about what you have posted, for all we know, Kubiak calls the whole game. For all we know Kubiak is referring to not using his Veto power or not offering a better suggestion, or just going with whatever Dennison calls up.

Yeah, that's what I said too.
:cool:

GP
10-01-2011, 06:40 PM
You're still postulating. There is absolutely nothing in that quote that says, "irrefutably" who called which plays. For all we know Kubiak calls the plays from 20 to 20 and Dennison calls all the red zone plays.
The only thing that is irrefutable about the play calling is that
We. Don't. Know.

That "I've got to call better plays" statement is another example, IMHO, where Kubiak went into his usual and customary "The Buck Stops Here" mode where he refuses to throw his coaches/coordinators under the bus.

Oh and I like the way you ignored the player responsibility that Kubiak pointed out. "We've got to block better, run better, throw better".

As I said before, I don't care what play is called, if the players don't execute it properly - i.e., block better, run better, throw better, catch better (yeah, that's meant for you Tate and JJ!) - it will not work.

I'm not ignoring the player aspect, Obsi. What part of "the players need to execute" do you guys IGNORE when I state it?

The article is centering upon RED ZONE WOES, Obsi. In the article, the author is writing about RED ZONE WOES. And Kubiak comments upon RED ZONE missed opportunities. So I'm stretching things by giving Kubiak the credit he says he deserves????? His words, not mine.

Just as I predicted: Now that we know, again (since he's said two years ago in the article I linked to, to show MORE evidence of my claims) that he is calling red zone plays...you guys are trying to move the goal posts and say I have to go another 10 yards to make a TD on this topic (i.e. "We don't know if Dennison is calling red zone plays or if it's all Kubiak") Typical outcome.

The man, Kubiak, is not posturing to save people's jobs. He is the builder of this offense. It's his design, his "baby," and he's saying he has to make better calls in the RED ZONE.

Read the sig.

GP
10-01-2011, 06:41 PM
Here's the problem. You start off with your theory, then a few sentences later you act as if it is fact. There is nothing irrefutable about what you have posted, for all we know, Kubiak calls the whole game. For all we know Kubiak is referring to not using his Veto power or not offering a better suggestion, or just going with whatever Dennison calls up.

You're also the guy who said Steve Slaton is running BETTER, this preseason, than he did in 2008.

Excuse me if I fail to heed your warnings on making things into facts.

GP
10-01-2011, 06:43 PM
All of this is just typical "bury your heads into the sand" behavior to ignore a 5-year trend of Red Zone shenanigans that's been flood or drought for 5 years.

Continue moving the goal posts, gentlemen.

GP
10-01-2011, 07:03 PM
Here's the full article, because the context of Kubiak's quote is entirely about red zone play calling that HE has admitted to now and in times past, and I will denote in red text how much of this article is displaying the topic it intends to discuss--RED ZONE WOES with the Texans.

Kubiak is calling RZ plays, not one or two sprinkled in every now and then. It's his puppy.

Texans try to fix breakdowns inside the 20-yard line with Steelers up next
Friday, September 30, 4:53 PM

HOUSTON — Houston coach Gary Kubiak started the week by meeting with his offense and reviewing all the Texans’ plays inside the 20-yard line over the first three games.

No one liked much of what they saw.

The Texans (2-1) are tied with New England for the most trips inside the so-called red zone with 16, but they have only five touchdowns to show for it. The inefficiency cost them in a 40-33 loss to New Orleans last week, and correcting the problem has been the focus heading into Sunday’s game against Pittsburgh (2-1). (ARTICLE STARTS OFF ABOUT RED ZONE WOES)

“It hadn’t been good enough, so we’ve got to do something different, something better,” Kubiak said. “I’ve got to call things better (STILL TALKING ABOUT RED ZONE HERE). We’ve got to block better, run better, throw better.

“That’s part of football,” he said. “Some things you’re doing good; some things you’re not doing good and you work hard to fix them.”

Houston should get a boost this week, with Arian Foster expected to start after sitting out two of first three games to nurse a strained left hamstring. Foster led the league in rushing -- and rushing touchdowns, with 16 -- last season.

“If you’ve got to play block for two (yards), he’ll find a way to get three or four,” Kubiak said. “He’s always been that way and he’s tough to tackle down there and make somebody tackle him three times. He’s usually pretty successful down there (THIS IS TALKING ABOUT RED ZONE STUFF, ObsiWan!). He was a big difference last year.”

But everyone agrees that the formula for more red-zone success involves more than just handing the ball to Foster instead of Ben Tate, who rushed for over 100 yards in Houston’s first two games.

The Texans rank fifth in rushing (138 yards per game) behind an experienced offensive line, but the offense has produced no gain or lost yardage on 21 of its 51 plays run inside the opponents’ 20.

“When you’re in the run game, and there’s not a lot of space, and there’s 22 bodies within three yards of space, it’s going to be about who wants it more, a battle of will,” quarterback Matt Schaub said. “But it’s also about execution, too, and being smart with what you’re trying to get done.”

The Texans have averaged only 1.8 yards on their 16 initial plays in the red zone, immediately creating more pressure for Schaub and limiting Kubiak’s play-calling options.

Houston scored three touchdowns on six red-zone visits in a 34-7 win over Indianapolis in the opener. Since then, the Texans have mustered only two touchdowns in 10 drives inside the 20.

“I think the last two weeks, first-and-10, we’d run the ball, (then face) second-and-10, second-and-nine, second-and-11, so you’re off schedule,” Kubiak said. “Against New Orleans, we had three second (down) and less than three yards, and we went backward. You can’t have negative football plays ... Find a way to save the play.”

Scoring touchdowns won’t be much easier on Sunday. The Steelers’ defense has allowed nine red-zone visits and only four touchdowns.

“I’m pretty sure on every team, when you get in the red zone, guys are probably in the huddle (saying), ‘Hey man, we need to get seven points here,’” All-Pro receiver Andre Johnson said. “But that’s what makes this game so challenging, because you have a defense out there trying to make you go three-and-out. Unfortunately, we haven’t been able to score as many touchdowns as we would like, but I think we’ll get it fixed.”

Johnson said Monday’s film session showed every offensive player what he needs to do better.

“It’s not just one guy. It’s everybody,” he said. “You may have a guy may miss a block or a pass that may have been dropped in the flat or something like that, that a guy could have turned up. You just have to make those plays and, like coach Kubiak said in the meeting, when you get down in the red zone, every time you catch a ball or run a ball, you want to make sure you’re going forward and not going backward.”

Notes: CB Kareem Jackson (right knee) did not practice on Friday, and Kubiak said his availability will be a “game-time decision.” Veteran Jason Allen would start in Jackson’s place. ... RB Derrick Ward will sit out Sunday’s game to nurse a right ankle sprain.

Dang, it seems like the whole thing talks about red zone. Which would include Kubiak's statement about "I've got to call things better."

My rant is not about the amount of blame to place between the play CALLER and the play MAKER(S). My soap box is this idea that we just can't know whether red zone plays are from Kubiak or Dennison.

I mean, geez...if it hasn't been cemented by now, it never will.

Our play MAKERS might have more consistent results IF the guy who got them to RZ in the first place was allowed to finish out the final 3 innings of the ballgame.

As it stands, I think there's some coaches who have figured out that you expect to have the Texans drive the field on you...and your statistical "best" shot at stopping us is to hunker down and play what you've scouted on Kubiak for the past five years. THIS part is more of a theory, btw. That Kubiak is calling red zone plays, IMO, is more of a fact at this point.

GP
10-01-2011, 07:12 PM
And with that, I leave you to your typical derisions of my character.

I can't keep up. The statements are there, the results on the field are there, and all signs point toward a wonky RZ scenario whereby play caller AND play maker(s) are teaming up in one epic f-a-i-l when it counts the most.

It's flood or drought with the RZ play calls. It comes in bunches just like Mario Williams' plays do. I want more consistency in both, and I'm fine with sticking to those expectations--I think it's reasonable to expect more consistent results with guys who have been "gelling" for the past 4-to-5 years in a great offense.

DocBar
10-01-2011, 07:17 PM
whats the "z" for?An exclaimation point for a stupid post by someone who completely missed the point of the post quoted? :kitten:

thunderkyss
10-01-2011, 07:54 PM
Our play MAKERS might have more consistent results IF the guy who got them to RZ in the first place was allowed to finish out the final 3 innings of the ballgame.

This is the point you haven't come close to proving. The article you quoted in its entirety... doesn't explicitly mean what you want it to mean. It could. I'm not denying that. But it could also mean something else entirely. One of these days you're going to here Kubiak say, "It's on me" refering to the defensive play-calling, but we all believe Wade calls the D... other than the starter at #2 CB, the D is Wade's baby.


Look, we don't know the particulars of the playcalling duties all we know, is that Kubiak will take the blame for it, like he always has. That is all that article says.

As it stands, I think there's some coaches who have figured out that you expect to have the Texans drive the field on you...and your statistical "best" shot at stopping us is to hunker down and play what you've scouted on Kubiak for the past five years. THIS part is more of a theory, btw. That Kubiak is calling red zone plays, IMO, is more of a fact at this point.

Either that, or that's just the way the red zone is by it's nature.

GP, they call it the red zone for a reason. They've been calling it the redzone long before Kubiak was head coach of the Houston Texans & they'll be calling it the Red Zone long after.

ObsiWan
10-01-2011, 09:16 PM
Here's the full article, because the context of Kubiak's quote is entirely about red zone play calling that HE has admitted to now and in times past, and I will denote in red text how much of this article is displaying the topic it intends to discuss--RED ZONE WOES with the Texans.

Kubiak is calling RZ plays, not one or two sprinkled in every now and then. It's his puppy.



Dang, it seems like the whole thing talks about red zone. Which would include Kubiak's statement about "I've got to call things better."

My rant is not about the amount of blame to place between the play CALLER and the play MAKER(S). My soap box is this idea that we just can't know whether red zone plays are from Kubiak or Dennison.

I mean, geez...if it hasn't been cemented by now, it never will.

Our play MAKERS might have more consistent results IF the guy who got them to RZ in the first place was allowed to finish out the final 3 innings of the ballgame.

As it stands, I think there's some coaches who have figured out that you expect to have the Texans drive the field on you...and your statistical "best" shot at stopping us is to hunker down and play what you've scouted on Kubiak for the past five years. THIS part is more of a theory, btw. That Kubiak is calling red zone plays, IMO, is more of a fact at this point.

I find it interesting that every player they quoted mentioned, stressed even, that it was the execution that needed work. Yet you ignored those quotes only to focus on one.

That's not a very balanced assessment. You're better than that.

Rey
10-02-2011, 12:51 AM
Kubiak is stubborn. Evidence does not support your theory, I'm afraid.

And more importantly, the stark difference between how we look between the 20's and when we're near a TD tells me the most.

GP, I don't want to sound condescending or sound like I know it all. That said, teams don't work like that.

I played in and studied the zbs a whole lot. A whole lot. I know about a lot of intricacies with the system.

Zbs is not really built for situations where the field is short or when you are trying to get short yardage.

The linemen aren't built for that and the system in general is not built for that.

Not only that, but red zone scoring can be a challenge for anyone. The field gets shorter, defenses have less ground to cover, qb's have tighter throwing windows. There are several reasons for an offense looking different or not as successful in the redzone.


But besides all of that, that's not how teams operate. If the head coach doesn't trust the offensive coordinator to do his job in the redzone then he wouldn't trust him period. Jmo.

You said that you had evidence or proof, but I have not seen any presented and I really don't think I ever will because it doesn't sound realistic to me. Now all of this is jmo, but I'm stating it as such.

Tailgate
10-02-2011, 12:57 AM
Weren't the Texans one of the better red zone Offenses last year?

eriadoc
10-02-2011, 02:46 AM
Go back and look at the game log from the Saints game. Tate never got a chance to show anything in the red zone. So if you think Foster is going to make a difference, then you're basically saying they would call plays differently with Foster in there. And if so, that means Kubiak is a friggin' moron. If Tate ever failed in the red zone, then I get that. But he hasn't, and Kubiak just decided not to run the ball down there.

Foster, on the other hand, can break one from 20 yards out a bit more readily, and has top notch vision to be a red zone back. That doesn't mean you don't try the other guy when Foster's out.

CloakNNNdagger
10-02-2011, 08:09 AM
Go back and look at the game log from the Saints game. Tate never got a chance to show anything in the red zone. So if you think Foster is going to make a difference, then you're basically saying they would call plays differently with Foster in there. And if so, that means Kubiak is a friggin' moron. If Tate ever failed in the red zone, then I get that. But he hasn't, and Kubiak just decided not to run the ball down there.

Foster, on the other hand, can break one from 20 yards out a bit more readily, and has top notch vision to be a red zone back. That doesn't mean you don't try the other guy when Foster's out.

Exactly what I saw last week. Tate was not given the ball enough to succeed, yet some would quickly try to label him a "FAIL." This is exactly why I posted this article and why I stated in my initial post:

something other than the absence of Foster is just not right.

ObsiWan
10-02-2011, 10:32 AM
I'm not ignoring the player aspect, Obsi. What part of "the players need to execute" do you guys IGNORE when I state it?
I guess that's on me.
Because I just went back through all your posts in this thread and I can't find anywhere that you put any of the responsibility for redzone woes on the players. So if tell me you said it, I'll take your word for it. But I can't find that statement, from you, in this thread.

The article is centering upon RED ZONE WOES, Obsi. In the article, the author is writing about RED ZONE WOES. And Kubiak comments upon RED ZONE missed opportunities. So I'm stretching things by giving Kubiak the credit he says he deserves????? His words, not mine.
No argument here. I'm talking about redzone woes and missed opportunities too. In fact, I gave a detailed example of how lack of poise by Schaub cost us six points.
I'll give you another.
After we blew that opportunity, the defense (J. Joseph) picked off Brees on the first or second play of their subsequent possession. I feel obligated to mention that Brees was hurried into a bad throw by Mario; he didn't get a sack but he caused a turnover.
We got the ball on the Saints' 34 and drove down to inside the 10 - most of it due to 4 or 5 straight runs by Tate.
The play that urked me was third & four on the nine (4:00 minutes to go in the half). Single back formation w/double TEs; Slaton was the single back (I'm thinking Tate was gassed).
Both KW and AJ were on the right side of the formation - AJ soon went in motion and ended up split to the left.
Dreessen stayed into block, OD chipped then went out into an out pattern right along the goal line.
Both KW and AJ ran short outs (we only needed 4 yds for a fresh set of downs) then back inside across the goal line.
Now the double moves by AJ and KW need time to develop and we had kind of a max protect going by keeping both Dreessen and Slaton in to block.
Here's the fail. Slaton, instead of waiting near Schaub to pick up anyone who got free, stepped up into help on the left side. When the Saints' LB saw Slaton wasn't in the pass pattern, he came on a delayed blitz. That should have been Slaton's responsibility.
He blew it. As a result, Schaub ended up chucking a wounded duck at OD's feet.
The play could have worked but because Slaton missed his blitz pickup, it failed.
That's an execution issue.