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View Full Version : JJ Moses--Perspective


infantrycak
06-16-2004, 03:03 PM
Saw this posted on another MB from a KC fan:

Big JJ MOSES fan here.

He was awesome in Chiefs training camp as a WR and was literlly a hair away from beating Dante Hall out as our Kick/Punt Returner two years ago. I honestly thought it was a mistake to let JJ go and keep Dante as our returner...boy was I wrong.

I still, to this day, think JJ will be the leagues leading K/P returner sometime in the next few years. Maybe even this year...along with Dante of course! :)

I'd just like to add that I did watch JJ last year. To me, JJ's KR play last year looked identical to Dante Hall's play his first two years in the NFL. Good, but not great. Has flashed skills, but nothing that can't be replaced. JJ just needs another year I think...and then bam. One of the NFL's kick-returning elite. Just give him some time.

Made me look up some stats for comparison:

Dante Hall KR's: #/avg./Long/TD's
2000 17/21.1/36/0
2001 43/22.5/71/0
2002 57/23.8/88/1
2003 57/25.9/100/2

JJ Moses
2003 58/23.4/70/0

Dante Hall PR's
2000 6/6.2/22/0
2001 32/7.3/26/0
2002 29/13.4/90/2
2003 29/16.3/93/2

JJ Moses
2003 36/6.8/40/0

So JJ's performance last year was basically equal to Dante Hall's third year performance as a kick returner minus one TD and was basically equal to Dante's performance in his second year as a punt returner (little lower average, higher long). Like JJ, Dante was pretty ineffective as a PR at first. Roster spots may dictate his release, but IMO a guy that in his first year getting significant play matches the third year KR performance of last year's special teams player of the year maybe should be given a little time to see what he really has.

BuffSoldier
06-16-2004, 04:49 PM
I think JJ is one of the most exciting kick returners in the NFL. Hopefully he can get some returns this season and I think he will have a valid shot at the pro-bowl.

Lucky
06-16-2004, 05:18 PM
What I'd really like to know (and it would be difficult to determine) is if the KC return team as a whole stayed pretty much intact during those seasons. Did they get an opportunity to grow together as a unit? Did they bring in a couple of guys that helped turn that unit around? I've always believed that continuity was just as important on special teams as any other unit.

Does anyone remember the guys who were on the return teams last season? I remember Peek due to his propensity for picking up penalties. Guys like Evans, Wright, Bell, & Walker have been in the Texans system for 3 years now. I expect more consistent results (fewer penalties) from the return team no matter who is carrying the rock.

TheOgre
06-16-2004, 05:22 PM
I guess I am in the minority on this. J.J. has great quickness but no speed. Personally I think we can find someone with similar averages but who can actually contribute in other areas (DB or WR).

Porky
06-16-2004, 05:38 PM
As the Ogre pointed out, JJ has two major obstacles to overcome if he is to stay on the team. I think he is a longshot. We cannot afford to have someone fill a "dead space" at WR. We have too many good young prospects that have a legit shot at making an impact to keep dead weight there. He simply doesn't have the size/speed ratio to make any real impact at WR. Secondly, yes he is as quick as a hiccup, but slow as a turtle. Since he is dead weight at WR, the only way you can keep him is if he is among the truly elite, and with his less than scintilating speed, he clearly isn't "elite". I don't need to consult Kreskin on this one. The handwriting was on the wall. If you want to really know what the Texans plan on doing, please consult the Draft, day 2, 4/24. They didn't just blow a draft choice on some longshot. They could do that with a post draft free agent signee. No, they drafted Duff with the clear intention of having him supplant JJ. JJ is a helluva guy, and I wish hiim the best. But, his odds on making the final roster hinge on having others get injured. Not very likely imo. :twocents:

BuffSoldier
06-16-2004, 05:38 PM
I really dont think JJ is slow at all. I remember him beating a lot of people last year on returns. I remember the pre-season when he got caugth by one guy when he could have ran it all the way back, but usually JJ does so much reversing field , juking and jabbing during the return, he has no gas left when it comes time to turn on the breakaway speed. And as far as Duff goes, he isnt all that fast either. Plus with Glenn, Dunta, Wright, Faggins, and Coleman who can move back to CB when needed, he doest have much of a shot of making the roster IMO.

texans
06-16-2004, 05:47 PM
i would also like to point out the we intended to replace him last year with DD But he broke his had and coudent compete

Lucky
06-16-2004, 05:52 PM
I guess I am in the minority on this. J.J. has great quickness but no speed. Personally I think we can find someone with similar averages but who can actually contribute in other areas (DB or WR).
I don't know about being in the minority, opinion seems to be split about 50/50 regarding Moses. Maybe 40/40 with 20% undecided.

But I do think the return job goes to the best man, regardless of his ability to help out in other areas. A starting return man is more important to a team than the 5th WR or CB. If injury dictates a 5th WR or 5th CB is required, that's what the practice squad is for.

And I think the competition for the return job is a larger field than 2. NFLE "stars" like Freeman, Taylor, and Albert Johnson will be in the mix. I expect someone to emerge from these 5 guys with a great preseason and grab this job by its throat.

BuffSoldier
06-16-2004, 05:59 PM
i would also like to point out the we intended to replace him last year with DD But he broke his had and coudent compete

How could he replace JJ when JJ was a first year Texan as well, both of them were competeing and even when DD was able to return kicks, he couldnt take his spot. And what a lot of you dont realize is that JJ was 3rd in return yards last year, he couldnt have done that bad. He also had a better return average than the player with the leagues top return yardage.

Kick Return Stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/KRET/2003/regular)

TEXANS84
06-16-2004, 06:48 PM
Great Post!! As you can tell by the name...TEXAN84...I am a huge Moses fan.

Panther5407
06-16-2004, 07:00 PM
I also think Moses did excelent this past season but this off season theres been lots of talking about others getting the return job. Does that mean the Texans are just unimpressed with Moses or are they trying to have more compitition at the returner spot to maybe make him try even harder to get that extra 5 yards? idonno:

Vinny
06-16-2004, 07:19 PM
Does that mean the Texans are just unimpressed with Moses or are they trying to have more compitition at the returner spot to maybe make him try even harder to get that extra 5 yards? idonno:Every year special teams players will have to fight to keep their jobs. That prety much goes for everyone, but if you are not a starter and are not in any offensive or defensive packages you are going to have to fight and claw for a roster spot.

aj.
06-16-2004, 07:25 PM
This seems like a subject that won't go away. JJ is a good kickoff return man in terms of getting good field position, but he is not a good punt return man. To his credit, he is very sure-handed. He holds the #5 WR slot even though he is not a legitimate WR. If the Texans find a guy (Duff, Chris Taylor, Sloan Thomas or otherwise) who is equally sure handed, can legitimately play backup CB or WR, can get 25 yards per on KO returns and anything on punt returns, then there is a chance that he doesn't make the final 53, fan favorite or not.

rdbrem
06-16-2004, 07:34 PM
Great thread! Lots of opinions, and a few facts. I like that.

Appreciate the comparison with Hall, that does help. Nobody expected JJ to take the return job last year, and so he probably got zero work in pre-season as a WR. Can he be like Dante as a WR? Don't know, but Dante's not exactly a giant.

Since JJ was no. 10 as a KR his first year, and never lost a ball, he's definitely got an edge. Don't really think Duff is as serious a competition, as he doesn't seem to be an awesome CB either. I'd guess the guys from NFLE are more of a threat.

But most of all, I think injuries may play as big a part here as anywhere. The first guy injured is out.

infantrycak
06-16-2004, 08:00 PM
If the Texans find a guy (Duff, Chris Taylor, Sloan Thomas or otherwise) who is equally sure handed, can legitimately play backup CB or WR, can get 25 yards per on KO returns and anything on punt returns, then there is a chance that he doesn't make the final 53

AJ puts forth a very good standard. JJ should not be a sure thing. First we need someone that is sure handed--a muffed KR or PR can be as devastating as a return for a TD is positive. JJ made 90 or so combined returns last year without a miss. Anyone else coming in has a high bar on that. Legitimate back-up--well I guess that depends on who is also getting the 25 yd KR's and something on PR's. If it is Sloan Thomas for all of the above, maybe. Duff--is he anything more than a special teamer--absent injury will he ever really hit the field as a CB? If not, then it is the same as JJ playing WR. By the way, look at the last part of the mini-camp clip and guess who is the WR catching the ball.

My point in posting this was not that JJ has to stay, but that NFL players in general benefit from experience. Is there anyone that is willing to step up and say Dante Hall is not worth his spot solely on his return abilities? JJ is ahead of his performance curve--maybe a year's gamble is worthwhile in a debate between people 3rd, 4th or 5th on the depth chart at their nominal position.

Tulip
06-21-2004, 06:43 PM
I know it's going to be hard to keep him, but I just love him. He's a waterbug. And he got the fans so excited last year at the games. I loved hearing everyone shouting his name during the KRs and PRs. I threatened to order a Moses jersey all season, but I never did it.

BornOrange
06-21-2004, 07:24 PM
I just know that the Texans need more production from the return game.

I don't know if the fault lies with Moses or with the blocking on the return units, but last year was about average on kickoffs and among the worst in the league on punts.

Buffsoldier pointed out that Moses had a high total yardage number, but that is a factor of the Texans allowing too many TD's and of Moses not taking many fair catches. If you have a huge amount of returns, you will have a high total yardage.

The main problem I have with Moses as the return man is that he doesn't contribute as a WR. If he is one of the best return men in the league that would be one thing. However, if he is just going to be average he is taking up a roster spot that could be better served with someone else that is just going to be an average (or even below average) return man but could help out on the field. This year is an important year for backup WR's on this team because Corey Bradford is in the final year of his contract. If he isn't going to be back in 2005, it would be nice to be able to groom his replacement this year. I don't see Derrick Armstrong as a legitimate deep threat (he is more like a possession receiver in my mind) so that would mean that a fifth WR would be needed on the roster this year to develop into that deep threat. Someone like Sloan Thomas or Kendrick Starling. If Moses is on the roster, there is no room for Thomas or Starling unless Armstrong gets released or the Texans keep six WR's.

To be put on the practice squad, Thomas and/or Starling would have to clear waivers. I think Thomas just might get claimed by another team, although Starling would probably clear waivers. However, both of those guys have great speed and would be attractive on that basis.

Dilbert R.
06-22-2004, 01:32 PM
I remember reading what guys were saying about JJ this time last season on Houston Pro Football.com. By the time I seen him for myself I was really impressed. I don't believe a guy has to take it the distance to be a great returner. If he produces decent gains, and never turns the ball over, I am happy. If he has potential to make great things happen (which I believe JJ does), then we are fortunate to have him. Now, to me, he has shown he has great hands - so why does he fill a "blank spot" just as a return man? Why can't he be used as a WR at times, the way Dante Hall is used in KC's offense? I hope we keep him. I think he is special.

TheOgre
06-22-2004, 02:58 PM
JJ was in the top half of the league in terms of kick returns, but he was horrible in terms of punt returns. Look at his standing in this category:
http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PNTRET/2003/regular

There is no question that return teams are a vital part of every game. In fact approximately 20-25% of all plays in a game revolve around special teams. I just think that too many of you are putting your flag on the wrong guy. He was a bad punt returner and a decent to good kick off returner. Those are a dime a dozen. I think we can find a guy equally as effective, if not moreso, PLUS find a guy that can contribute in other ways as well.

I'm going out on a limb. I am predicting that JJ Moses will not be on our opening day roster.

Lucky
06-22-2004, 03:33 PM
...I think we can find a guy equally as effective, if not moreso, PLUS find a guy that can contribute in other ways as well.
That would be great, but do the Texans have a guy like that on their roster?

Moses
Duff
Rober' Freeman
Albert Johnson
Chris Taylor

These are the guys competing for the return gig. They aren't likely to contribute significantly in any way except as a returner. It would be nice to have a Randle-El or a Brian Westbrook who could be multi-dimensional. Domanick Davis was drafted to be just that, but he's too valuable to use like that now.

The multi-dimensional argument is a red herring because the Texans don't have that guy on their roster. The return job should go to the best returner, whomever that is. He'll touch the ball 6-7 times a game and is more important than the bottom guy on the depth chart at WR or CB.

Tulip
06-22-2004, 03:37 PM
I agree that returner is just too important of a position to worry with where else they fit on the roster.

And about playing Moses at WR - they'll put in Marcus Coleman at receiver before they'll put in Moses. He's just so short, I guess.

I love him and I hope he stays. But I know it's going to be a tough sell. I agree that he probably will not be on the roster come opening day.

TheOgre
06-22-2004, 04:13 PM
You guys act like JJ was lighting it up on returns. He was in the bottom 20% of the league on punt returns and barely in the top half of the league in kick returns. Heck I bet Duff could do that AND provide us with a potential dime cornerback.

Tulip
06-22-2004, 04:38 PM
You guys act like JJ was lighting it up on returns. He was in the bottom 20% of the league on punt returns and barely in the top half of the league in kick returns. Heck I bet Duff could do that AND provide us with a potential dime cornerback.

Moses is a fan favorite - that's where a lot of it comes from. He had a very strong training camp performance and beginning of the season last year. He got the fans really excited. Fans like a story line and like to find players to identify with and cheer on - especially someone who is considered an "underdog". It gives us something to do - something to talk about during all of those boring TV timeouts we have to endure at the game.

wags
06-22-2004, 04:50 PM
I agree with Ogre. I think Duff can be better and he can also help in the secondary. I didn't cry when Lewis got dumped and I won't cry if JJ gets dumped. So here's to hoping that Duff can help in the kick game and secondary. :party:

Tulip
06-22-2004, 04:51 PM
Did anyone cry when Lewis was dumped? But thanks for mentioning him. He's another reason why everyone jumped on the Moses fan bandwagon so quickly and strongly.

TheOgre
06-22-2004, 05:17 PM
I guess that is my problem. I usually use other forms of mass transit than the bandwagon.

Tulip
06-22-2004, 05:24 PM
I'm not usually a bandwagon jumper myself, so I'll make 2 excuses for it.

1) I was an insta-Moses fan. Didn't wait for the bandwagon.

2) I'm a girl, so I'm always a sucker for the underdog. Explains my undying love for The Major.

infantrycak
06-22-2004, 06:44 PM
You guys act like JJ was lighting it up on returns. He was in the bottom 20% of the league on punt returns and barely in the top half of the league in kick returns. Heck I bet Duff could do that AND provide us with a potential dime cornerback.

I completely agree with cutting JJ if it is a matter of having a person who truly contributes at their non returner role, BUT if the only comment is that in his first year he wasn't Dante Hall then I think that is just a grass is greener attitude that results in perpetual turnover and missed opportunities--Hall wasn't Hall until his third year and JJ got close to Hall's third year performance last year. In short as a returner I would say give JJ time to see what develops (like every other position on the team--you know QB's break out in year 3-5, etc.)--as a WR, if we have someone decidedly better and need the roster spot then fine JJ is gone.

Texansbacker
06-22-2004, 09:56 PM
Experience is a major factor when you consider that it takes time for the game to slow down and the returner to see the field. Moses had some great returns last year and had some average returns but from my standpoint it certainly appeared that Moses' hips were on a swivel and had some great moves. Add in that he had no drops and even took a brutal cheap shot by Jacksonville and I say you give the guy a shot. If you lose, you get the #10 kick returner and average punt returner who hangs on to the ball. If you win, you get a dynamic returner providing you with great field advantage and the possible bonus points. Ala Billy "White Shoes" Johnson, he was no giant.

Dilbert R.
06-23-2004, 11:10 AM
My thing is I am terribly afraid of regret. And I think if we let JJ Moses go we will regret it. He is dangerous everytime he touches the ball and we haven't seen the best of him yet. I didn't cry when Lewis was gone, but JJ's offseason performance, the advantage he gave us over the Jags (until he got cheap shotted by Redmond), and the almost TD run at the end of the Jets game - I'll miss him, and I don't want to see him wearing other colors, especially if he has to line up against us. I believe he has the potential of being a league's great special teamer if he is with us or someone else. I think we regret it if he is gone.

Dilbert R.
06-23-2004, 11:18 AM
I agree that returner is just too important of a position to worry with where else they fit on the roster.

And about playing Moses at WR - they'll put in Marcus Coleman at receiver before they'll put in Moses. He's just so short, I guess.

I love him and I hope he stays. But I know it's going to be a tough sell. I agree that he probably will not be on the roster come opening day.
Is he much smaller than Davis? The way Hall is used in KC's offense is the way we use DD out of the backfield, with swing passes and screens and dump offs - and imagine JJ getting the ball with the shuttle pass. I imagine he would get lost going up the middle.

Vinny
06-23-2004, 11:20 AM
Is he much smaller than Davis? The way Hall is used in KC's offense is the way we use DD out of the backfield, with swing passes and screens and dump offs - and imagine JJ getting the ball with the shuttle pass. I imagine he would get lost going up the middle.
They have entirely different builds. Moses is 5'6" 170's and Davis is 5'9" and nearly 220 lbs.

infantrycak
06-23-2004, 11:22 AM
Is he much smaller than Davis?

Yes. DD is 5'9" 216 lbs. JJ is 5'6" 178 lbs.

Dilbert R.
06-23-2004, 10:48 PM
OK. But I still don't think JJ is "TOO" small to catch a swing, screen, or dump pass. The dangerous catches are over the middle, otherwise you are more prone to injuries doing what JJ done for us last season - returning punts and kick offs. A couple of things he did prove is he isn't bad to turn the ball over, he can take hits, and he has good hands. In traffic Moses would give Defensive coordinators nightmares. With lineman pulling, AJ blocking downfield, and Norris leading the way, I would say JJ's playmaking ability would be a reality on the offensive side of the ball - and not just special teams.