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View Full Version : Arian Foster to be limited week 4 per the Mothership.


Big Lou
09-28-2011, 03:48 PM
Just red this on the theredzone.org:


Houston Texans running back Arian Foster practiced today according to Nick Scurfield of Houstontexans.com. Head coach Gary Kubiah said of Foster, "Hes fine. He should be ok heading to the rest of the season now, hopefully."

Kubiak added, "It doesn't go from nothing to everything... We've got to bring him along the right way."



http://theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/20522/Arian-Foster-expected-to-be-limited-Week-4/Default.aspx


Isn't this the exact opposite of what Kubes said before week 2? Didn't he say there's no limitations once he Arian plays. Either he's ready or he's not, there is no in between?

Allstar
09-28-2011, 04:05 PM
Maybe he meant they won't limit the playcalling and what they will actually do with Arian when he's in, but the snaps will be limited.

El Tejano
09-28-2011, 04:20 PM
Sounds to me as if we are making sure Arian doesn't have a season like he had last year $$.

drs23
09-28-2011, 04:22 PM
I see OD V2.0 coming with Arian's hammy. I sure hope not, but it sure looks like it which again would be very consistent with Doc Jean's prediction/prognosis. Dammit.

hradhak
09-28-2011, 04:46 PM
I'm guessing they are going to limit his reps, not the playcalls. The hammie can be tweaked at any point this season. 20+ touches a game isn't going to increase the likelihood it gets worse.

JCTexan
09-28-2011, 04:50 PM
Sounds to me as if we are making sure Arian doesn't have a season like he had last year $$.

I doubt Kubiak is going to risk losing his job because of a little cash. The only reason Foster has missed time is because of his hamstring, has nothing to do with money.

Vinny
09-28-2011, 04:58 PM
Head coach Gary Kubiah said of Foster, "He’s fine. He should be ok heading to the rest of the season now, hopefully."

Kubiak added, "It doesn't go from nothing to everything... We've got to bring him along the right way."Foster woke up this morning and said something along those lines....confused feelings about everything but nothing - it was in strict haiku form of course. Kubiak immediately made Foster room with malcontent James Davis. Expect Davis to tweet something profound shortly, but don't expect him on the game day roster.

Double Barrel
09-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Save Foster for the red zone. That seems to be where they need him the most.

GP
09-28-2011, 05:31 PM
Save Foster for the red zone. That seems to be where they need him the most.

Red Zone moments should be a great time for Gary Kubiak to head to the bathroom and take a leak, IMO. He's the one fugging everything up down there, IMO.

Gets cute, forgets that Dennison knows what the hell he's doing. There's a total and complete "stylistic" disconnect from Dennison's style of moving the ball down the field vs. Kubiak's selections near the goal line.

You guys watch. Notice the style between the 20s and then watch the offense BOG DOWN near the goal line. There's plenty of real estate in the entire end zone, so being on the 5 or the 10 should not be a death sentence to this offense. Yet it is.

Imatexanfan
09-28-2011, 09:07 PM
Just seen on NFL Network where Kubes said he don't see no reason why he couldn't play the full games, starting this week. He had plenty of time to rest the hamstring no reason why he couldn't go back to his usual self at running the ball.

Texan_Bill
09-28-2011, 09:23 PM
Save Foster for the red zone. That seems to be where they need him the most.

THIS!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He clearly is the difference from first to worst (in the RZ).... That said, him playing in Miami was asinine. Ben Tate surely could've gotten that job done and given Arian an extra week of rest so he might've gone v. the Saints.. Well? :thinking:

In any event, they need to use AF wisely. Hammy's are tricky!!!!

TexCanada
09-28-2011, 09:25 PM
Nothing wrong with giving him a lighter workload for the next few weeks. Come to think of it, I would say that even if he was fully fit. We can thank Ben Tate for that.

CloakNNNdagger
09-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Just seen on NFL Network where Kubes said he don't see no reason why he couldn't play the full games, starting this week. He had plenty of time to rest the hamstring no reason why he couldn't go back to his usual self at running the ball.

http://www.thebestdegrees.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Intro.jpg

Please don't tell Kubiak he's not a doctor. It may be true, but he doesn't take kindly to things like that. You've already seen what happens when he thinks he is a coach.:tiphat:

DocBar
09-28-2011, 10:13 PM
http://www.thebestdegrees.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Intro.jpg

Please don't tell Kubiak he's not a doctor. It may be true, but he doesn't take kindly to things like that. You've already seen what happens when he thinks he is a coach.:tiphat:Somebody make me a CnD for head coach soap, please.
From all evidence provided, you just can't make definitive statements about hammies, like you can a broken bone or torn ligament.
Sounds like Kubes might be getting a bit nervous. Any word on Ward's ankle?

Allstar
09-28-2011, 10:27 PM
Red Zone moments should be a great time for Gary Kubiak to head to the bathroom and take a leak, IMO. He's the one fugging everything up down there, IMO.

Gets cute, forgets that Dennison knows what the hell he's doing. There's a total and complete "stylistic" disconnect from Dennison's style of moving the ball down the field vs. Kubiak's selections near the goal line.

You guys watch. Notice the style between the 20s and then watch the offense BOG DOWN near the goal line. There's plenty of real estate in the entire end zone, so being on the 5 or the 10 should not be a death sentence to this offense. Yet it is.

Any facts to back up this claim? Very presumptive post.

CloakNNNdagger
09-28-2011, 11:28 PM
Somebody make me a CnD for head coach soap, please.
From all evidence provided, you just can't make definitive statements about hammies, like you can a broken bone or torn ligament.
Sounds like Kubes might be getting a bit nervous. Any word on Ward's ankle?

In line with the pattern of minimizing, this is what was reported the day after his injury:

Derrick Ward: Ankle Injury Not Serious

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com Sep 12, 12:28 pm EDT


Update: Ward, who left Sunday’s game after rolling his ankle, said he could have continued to play had it been necessary, the Houston Chronicle reports.

He has a high ankle sprain and it would typically not be wise to return before 4-6 weeks, especially for a RB.

MEGA SWATT
09-28-2011, 11:43 PM
Just red this on the theredzone.org:


Houston Texans running back Arian Foster practiced today according to Nick Scurfield of Houstontexans.com. Head coach Gary Kubiah said of Foster, "Hes fine. He should be ok heading to the rest of the season now, hopefully."

Kubiak added, "It doesn't go from nothing to everything... We've got to bring him along the right way."



http://theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/20522/Arian-Foster-expected-to-be-limited-Week-4/Default.aspx


Isn't this the exact opposite of what Kubes said before week 2? Didn't he say there's no limitations once he Arian plays. Either he's ready or he's not, there is no in between?

Based on AF's hamstring and what he's told the coaches I'm sure that's why he's changing his tune so to speak.

GP
09-28-2011, 11:45 PM
Any facts to back up this claim? Very presumptive post.

Just watch, that's all I am asking.

Watch Kubiak when the ball is being moved down the field fairly effortlessly between the 20s, and watch Kubiak when we get near the goal line...there's as big of a poker "tell" in NFL coaching as you'll ever get...and guys like Sean Payton sure as hell play better poker than guys like Sparano. Right? Right.

Body language, how much he chatters into his headset, amount of interaction with the guys on the field, etc. You just know that Dennison is laying down his sheet and Kubiak has taken back the controls...and so do opposing d-coordiators who are smart enough to watch and gamble on it. It's why Kubiak has a 1-18 record vs. teams who eventually have a winning record--They know what our tendencies are near the goal line. It's poker.

Watch the way the offense itself operates between the 20s. Gets near the goal line, and those guys are automatically "eff'ing up" what got them all the way to the 5-yard line to begin with?????? I don't buy it.

Competing styles + designer of offense is the head coach = Kubiak wants to make the "critical" calls near the goal line.

Look, I'll throw in the factual evidence to my claims about this:

The halfback pass vs. the Jags was called on a FIRST DOWN play within the 10-yard line or so...and after the game Kubiak admits it was his call.

And because he admitted to calling that paticular play, in that particular game, it wasn't too much later in that same season that he also opened up in an interview and said, "We all discuss the game plan leading up to the game, but on game day I can intercept any call from the o-coord and change the call if I want to. But we all have buy-in leading up to the game. But I can change the call if I want to. But....like I said, we all have a voice on things. And I can change the call." I am paraphrasing and using sarcasm for added effect, but he was grilled after the Jax game as to why such a call would be made by his o-coordinator like it was in the Jax game. He chose to man up and admit things because of that one play. He wasn't going to duck the blame and let it land on someone else.

I mean, LOL. I'm not exactly making up stories up here. Out of all the things that I try to read the tea leaves on, this one (IMO) is logical.

Just watch. IMO, Dennison's lack of control near the goal line is adversely affecting us. Kubiak can't stand not being on control when it gets down to the part where we score points...he has built a powerful arsenal on offense and he can't move his troops once they've hit the beaches.

And this, IMO, is where the "The Texans are soft" tag comes into play. My apologies to Mr. Lombardi, by the way, because he is right. There's a "toughness ceiling" that the Texans cannot consistently break through.

ObsiWan
09-29-2011, 03:03 AM
Based on AF's hamstring and what he's told the coaches I'm sure that's why he's changing his tune so to speak.

I'm thinking it has more to do with conditioning and being in "game shape" more than the hammy. If we run Foster to death in the first half, I'm not sure he's in sufficient game shape to be productive in the second half.

Just like I'm more than half-way convinced that Tate ran out of gas in the Saints game. He just wasn't the same in the fourth qtr as he was in the first half when he was breaking of 8-9 yd runs regularly.

beerlover
09-29-2011, 03:24 AM
wow, just wow :vincepalm:

welsh texan
09-29-2011, 07:34 AM
Red Zone moments should be a great time for Gary Kubiak to head to the bathroom and take a leak, IMO. He's the one fugging everything up down there, IMO.

Gets cute, forgets that Dennison knows what the hell he's doing. There's a total and complete "stylistic" disconnect from Dennison's style of moving the ball down the field vs. Kubiak's selections near the goal line.

You guys watch. Notice the style between the 20s and then watch the offense BOG DOWN near the goal line. There's plenty of real estate in the entire end zone, so being on the 5 or the 10 should not be a death sentence to this offense. Yet it is.

I can't really agree with this GP, I take the view that Kubiaks biggest strengths between the 20's; great play action, ZBS Running, slow developing passing plays, all become a weakness down in the red zone due to shortened field.

All of a sudden the O-line becomes a weakness because their cohesion as a unit over time and agility don't come into play when they need the big push, therefore we don't have the time available to let plays develop, Schaub is out of his comfort zone in that situation, and also they go away from the play action because they don't trust the O-line to keep the heat off for long enough to get it done.

Foster, of course, negates a lot of those problems, because he's so freaking good, but these problems existed before Foster and it seems haven't gone away, its just that he can get around them.

sakebomb
09-29-2011, 07:51 AM
Just seen on NFL Network where Kubes said he don't see no reason why he couldn't play the full games, starting this week. He had plenty of time to rest the hamstring no reason why he couldn't go back to his usual self at running the ball.

I would feel more confident hearing this if they would have sat Foster the first three weeks of the season rather than using him against the Dolphins and it flaring up again. Four solid weeks of rest rather than two weeks / play / tweak it and sit again. I just have this sick feeling in my stomach that this issue is going to bother him again. Of course, it could just be the supreme nachos I had last night at Minute Maid Park.

texdawg
09-29-2011, 07:57 AM
Glad to hear Foster is in for the Pittspuke game. Hope he has a monster game.

On a side note: When the Texans signed Vickers, I imagined a smash mouth red zone running game. Where has Vickers been? Has he even gotten in a game? He was great last year paving the way for Hillis, kinda expected the same results for you guys.

welsh texan
09-29-2011, 08:14 AM
Glad to hear Foster is in for the Pittspuke game. Hope he has a monster game.

On a side note: When the Texans signed Vickers, I imagined a smash mouth red zone running game. Where has Vickers been? Has he even gotten in a game? He was great last year paving the way for Hillis, kinda expected the same results for you guys.

James Casey, the converted TE has overshadowed him, his blocking is more than passable and his ability out of the backfield is unbelievable for the position, he got 130 yds and a TD on 6 touches from the FB position last week, you can't argue with that.

texdawg
09-29-2011, 08:25 AM
James Casey, the converted TE has overshadowed him, his blocking is more than passable and his ability out of the backfield is unbelievable for the position, he got 130 yds and a TD on 6 touches from the FB position last week, you can't argue with that.

Thanks welsh texan thats the info I was looking for. Casey has probably surpassed all of Vickers carreer stats in one game. LOL

TheMatrix31
09-29-2011, 08:26 AM
I'd love to have Vickers in the game sometimes and line Casey up as the second TE or even out on the edge as another WR.

I don't think I've seen Vickers in the game at all on offense. Maybe not paying attention.

CloakNNNdagger
09-29-2011, 08:43 AM
Save Foster for the red zone. That seems to be where they need him the most.

(Keep in mind that I don't believe he should be in the game at all) But if he is placed in short yardage goal line type of situations in particular, and is unable to find a clear hole........and is forced to power run his way against a bunched up Steelers' D, he is at even greater risk to further injure his hamstring. His hamstring will be placed under extreme conditions as it will be applying maximal concentrated contraction of the muscle against maximal resistance........................

http://stephanielittlejohns.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/pop.jpg

Marcus
09-29-2011, 08:48 AM
wow, just wow :vincepalm:

No kiddin, man! :dontknowa

Tejano is wearing his conspiracy theorist hat today.

And GP needs to cut back on the caffeine. :splits:

HJam72
09-29-2011, 08:56 AM
My opinion, Foster is done for the season.

He might be good in a month if he just sat his happy butt on the bench, but he won't... This crap will go on all season. He will be questionable for every game....until it pops, that is.

CloakNNNdagger
09-29-2011, 08:56 AM
I'm thinking it has more to do with conditioning and being in "game shape" more than the hammy. If we run Foster to death in the first half, I'm not sure he's in sufficient game shape to be productive in the second half.

Just like I'm more than half-way convinced that Tate ran out of gas in the Saints game. He just wasn't the same in the fourth qtr as he was in the first half when he was breaking of 8-9 yd runs regularly.

I went back to glance at RB carries for most of the upper-rated teams in the league last week. I found no single RB that carried the ball 19 times like Tate did. This is no longer a league that can expect to have individual RBs carry 20-35 times a game. Today, a RB is lucky to "stay" together for 15-20.

I would be curious for someone to look at how the stats fare for this last weeks RB carries and how they are distributed.

Marcus
09-29-2011, 08:57 AM
(Keep in mind that I don't believe he should be in the game at all) But if he is placed in short yardage goal line type of situations in particular, and is unable to find a clear hole........and is forced to power run his way against a bunched up Steelers' D, he is at even greater risk to further injure his hamstring. His hamstring will be placed under extreme conditions as it will be applying maximal concentrated contraction of the muscle against maximal resistance........................

http://stephanielittlejohns.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/pop.jpg

So Doc, how would you play this if you were in charge? Would you PUP him? (If that were possible at this stage of course.)

Marcus
09-29-2011, 09:01 AM
My opinion, Foster is done for the season.

He might be good in a month if he just sat his happy butt on the bench, but he won't... This crap will go on all season. He will be questionable for every game....until it pops, that is.

I agree. And if there is any blame associated with this, it's Foster's.

CloakNNNdagger
09-29-2011, 09:09 AM
So Doc, how would you play this if you were in charge? Would you PUP him? (If that were possible at this stage of course.)

He needed gentle rehab and total rest away from any practice for at least 2 weeks when he re-injured his hamstring. Then ease into lighter practice for a week or two.......then let to go all out. It is during the rest period that the muscle does its true healing. What most people don't tend to understand is the principle that you need to heal a muscle before you can expect to strengthen it without injury.

Marcus
09-29-2011, 09:22 AM
He needed gentle rehab and total rest away from any practice for at least 2 weeks when he re-injured his hamstring. Then ease into lighter practice for a week or two.......then let to go all out. It is during the rest period that the muscle does its true healing. What most people don't tend to understand is the principle that you need to heal a muscle before you can expect to strengthen it without injury.

And you're implying that the Texans medical staff does not know this? Just asking. Or what what else is at play here? Is Foster himself being his own worst enemy?

eriadoc
09-29-2011, 09:53 AM
And you're implying that the Texans medical staff does not know this?

Speaking only for myself, it seems that in every walk of life, money tends to obfuscate what people know. Everything in the NFL revolves around money. Plenty of players have had their injuries mishandled because of money. While I'm sure the doctors are trying their best to do the right thing, these are people that are employed by the team. And the players often want to return to the field, so they're not going to put up any roadblocks to an early return.

CloakNNNdagger
09-29-2011, 10:09 AM
And you're implying that the Texans medical staff does not know this? Just asking. Or what what else is at play here? Is Foster himself being his own worst enemy?


Unfortunately, I believe that all parties in their individual ways have been contributing to the problem at different times for different reasons.

infantrycak
09-29-2011, 11:05 AM
He has a high ankle sprain and it would typically not be wise to return before 4-6 weeks, especially for a RB.

Where did you hear it was a high ankle sprain? I have heard both Kubiak and McLame state it was not a high ankle sprain (however trustworthy that may be).

There's plenty of real estate in the entire end zone, so being on the 5 or the 10 should not be a death sentence to this offense. Yet it is.

Every coach from pop warner to the NFL disagrees with you.

Just watch, that's all I am asking.

Instead of asking why don't you try doing it. You can't get through a single NFL weekend and not have commentators and former player analysts discuss the difficulties of the red zone. It is pretty obvious why. If you are at the 40 the DB's have to cover 50 yards of real estate. If you are at the 5 they only have to cover 15.

Look, I'll throw in the factual evidence to my claims about this:

I mean, LOL. I'm not exactly making up stories up here. Out of all the things that I try to read the tea leaves on, this one (IMO) is logical.

Just watch. IMO, Dennison's lack of control near the goal line is adversely affecting us. Kubiak can't stand not being on control when it gets down to the part where we score points...he has built a powerful arsenal on offense and he can't move his troops once they've hit the beaches.

Wait so one incident from two years ago proves your point despite the fact that in between the Texans had one of the best red zone offenses in the league. Great evidence there. Skipping last year and trying to deny a basic football fact like it is easier to move between the 20's than in the red zone shows there are no limits on the contortions you will go through to criticize Kubiak.

GP
09-29-2011, 11:12 AM
Wait so one incident from two years ago proves your point despite the fact that in between the Texans had one of the best red zone offenses in the league. Great evidence there. Skipping last year and trying to deny a basic football fact like it is easier to move between the 20's than in the red zone shows there are no limits on the contortions you will go through to criticize Kubiak.

Every coach has his weaknesses. I think Kubiak's is making kute kalls instead of dancing with the one who brung him.

He's the one who admitted he can change the call if he wants to, not me. Go call him up and talk to him about all this. All I'm doing is saying "What would happen if an o-coord for the Texans could really be an o-coord for the Texans and not have his calls intercepted at various times and overridden???"

I don't go all out "hater" on Kubiak, either. I always preface that he is a builder of a great offense, and identifier of good talent to fit the offense, but the game day stuff is iffy.

If we're talking about the issue of "going all out and hating," well then...I know the perfect example of that, sir. Carry on......:tiphat:

infantrycak
09-29-2011, 11:18 AM
He's the one who admitted he can change the call if he wants to, not me. Go call him up and talk to him about all this. All I'm doing is saying "What would happen if an o-coord for the Texans could really be an o-coord for the Texans and not have his calls intercepted at various times and overridden???"

I don't go all out "hater" on Kubiak, either.

Yeah you did go all out hater above. Look at that bolded word. It displays your attitude to Kubiak. He didn't admit anything. He is the head freakin' coach and the guy who designed the offense. Of course he can change the call. More importantly every HC in the league can and does particularly on their side of the ball. Yet another example of how far you will contort to criticize Kubiak.

GP
09-29-2011, 11:26 AM
Yeah you did go all out hater above. Look at that bolded word. It displays your attitude to Kubiak. He didn't admit anything. He is the head freakin' coach and the guy who designed the offense. Of course he can change the call. More importantly every HC in the league can and does particularly on their side of the ball. Yet another example of how far you will contort to criticize Kubiak.

Remember the one offseason when he said something to the effect of "Kyle Shanahan has done a great job calling plays, and they'e all sort of got me on-board with reducing the amount of time I spend on that...so that I can be more of a head coach next year"? I don't want to have to go dig it up, but I will try and find it where it was quoted and discussed on here.

The point is that, IMO, he doesn't trust his o-coord enough. His knee-jerk reaction is to take over because he thinks he knows best. That's part of an arrogance and an abandonment of restraint that ends up getting us things like halfback passes on FIRST DOWN when within 10 yards of the end zone on the road vs. Jacksonville. It doesn't make sense for a President to call up a general and try to alter the battle plan when the battle plan was going nicely to begin with...and that's what head coaches do when they try too hard to be o-coordinators on game day.

Look, I've got 9,000+ rep points on here and none of those 9,000 from you. You're the only person who follows me around, bagging on my posts for a living, just stop and feel satisfied with yourself that you "really nailed old GP again!'. You're making your points. I'm making mine. Anything else?

Surreal McCoy
09-29-2011, 11:35 AM
Yeah you did go all out hater above. Look at that bolded word. It displays your attitude to Kubiak. He didn't admit anything. He is the head freakin' coach and the guy who designed the offense. Of course he can change the call. More importantly every HC in the league can and does particularly on their side of the ball. Yet another example of how far you will contort to criticize Kubiak.

You're herding cats here, Cak. I would also assume that Kubiak was not intercepting and changing the calls last season when we were #5 in RZ efficiency? :vincepalm:

CloakNNNdagger
09-29-2011, 11:50 AM
Where did you hear it was a high ankle sprain? I have heard both Kubiak and McLame state it was not a high ankle sprain (however trustworthy that may be).


Everything's a secret these days, until someone digs for answers. As soon as Ward was not out there practicing at all for the Saints game, it was pretty evident to me that this wasn't a simple sprain that you inject for pain, tape it up and quickly get back in there within the next week or two. It had to most likely be a high ankle sprain.

Then quietly buried in this little article was the answer........and not by Kubiak or McLame.......


Injuries leave Texans thin at receiver, running back (http://www.chron.com/default/article/Injuries-leave-Texans-thin-at-receiver-running-2182541.php)
By JEFFREY MARTIN, HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Updated 07:45 a.m., Thursday, September 22, 2011

Running backs Arian Foster and Derrick Ward weren't nearly as fortunate. Foster re-aggravated his left hamstring in the first half against the Dolphins, and Ward, who was knocked out of action against the Colts, revealed Wednesday he has a high ankle sprain.

DX-TEX
09-29-2011, 11:52 AM
I thought Ward had a concussion?

CloakNNNdagger
09-29-2011, 11:56 AM
I thought Ward had a concussion?

That happened way back when we played the Jets in preseason. He was kept out for one game (protocol) and returned for the third game of the preseason against the 49ers.

BigBull17
09-29-2011, 12:07 PM
I'd love to have Vickers in the game sometimes and line Casey up as the second TE or even out on the edge as another WR.

I don't think I've seen Vickers in the game at all on offense. Maybe not paying attention.

Full house or wishbone.

infantrycak
09-29-2011, 12:16 PM
Look, I've got 9,000+ rep points on here and none of those 9,000 from you.

You realize I can see your rep right? And that is not a true statement. What is really astounding is you have played this martyr schtick before and been corrected on it and then repeat it again.

You're the only person who follows me around, bagging on my posts for a living, just stop and feel satisfied with yourself that you "really nailed old GP again!'. You're making your points. I'm making mine. Anything else?

Don't flatter yourself. If anyone made the assertions you made I would have responded.

You're herding cats here, Cak. I would also assume that Kubiak was not intercepting and changing the calls last season when we were #5 in RZ efficiency? :vincepalm:

I know.

thunderkyss
09-30-2011, 11:27 PM
Kubiak can't stand not being on control when it gets down to the part where we score points...he has built a powerful arsenal on offense and he can't move his troops once they've hit the beaches.



http://www.augmentedplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/buzz_lightyear.jpg

You are a sad... sad little man.

Air Canada
10-01-2011, 02:04 AM
Every coach has his weaknesses. I think Kubiak's is making kute kalls instead of dancing with the one who brung him.

He's the one who admitted he can change the call if he wants to, not me. Go call him up and talk to him about all this. All I'm doing is saying "What would happen if an o-coord for the Texans could really be an o-coord for the Texans and not have his calls intercepted at various times and overridden???"

I don't go all out "hater" on Kubiak, either. I always preface that he is a builder of a great offense, and identifier of good talent to fit the offense, but the game day stuff is iffy.

If we're talking about the issue of "going all out and hating," well then...I know the perfect example of that, sir. Carry on......:tiphat:

This sounds very much like you're reaching to make your point, but the factual evidence your using to support doesn't really prove any of it.. How could you not recognize that for many teams and for football in general... scoring in the RZ is harder for some offenses for some obvious reasons and for some others it varies.. So when we did so well in the RZ it wasn't Kubes? Or how about whenever we score in the RZ it's cuz Kubiak didn't change the play? :lol:

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt288/Maddict5/kubiak.gif

thunderkyss
10-01-2011, 06:46 AM
Glad to hear Foster is in for the Pittspuke game. Hope he has a monster game.

On a side note: When the Texans signed Vickers, I imagined a smash mouth red zone running game. Where has Vickers been? Has he even gotten in a game? He was great last year paving the way for Hillis, kinda expected the same results for you guys.

Kubiak has a problem designing packages for all his personnel. He only works on the top 10% of the team, everyone else has to fall in line.

GP
10-01-2011, 04:40 PM
This sounds very much like you're reaching to make your point, but the factual evidence your using to support doesn't really prove any of it.. How could you not recognize that for many teams and for football in general... scoring in the RZ is harder for some offenses for some obvious reasons and for some others it varies.. So when we did so well in the RZ it wasn't Kubes? Or how about whenever we score in the RZ it's cuz Kubiak didn't change the play? :lol:

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt288/Maddict5/kubiak.gif

Go check the new thread where in an article about our red zone problems, Kubiak says "I have to call things better."

That's my factual evidence.

And there's 5+ years of film on Kubiak calling red zone plays. Which means teams can scout tendencies.

Wouldn't it be cool if Dennison started calling plays in the red zone, and Kubiak faked it like he (Kubiak) was chattering in the headset but the whole time the call was coming from Dennison?

Look, you guys have fuuuuuun bashing me like I don't know anything.

First it was "You have no proof that Kubiak is calling red zone plays and Dennison calling between the 20's." I suppose now it will be that it's not Kubiak's fault if he has tendencies and is being CORRECTLY scouted by opposing teams' d-cooridnators.

Whatever. Proof is in the puddin'. You guys carry on....:tiphat:

thunderkyss
10-01-2011, 06:10 PM
Look, you guys have fuuuuuun bashing me like I don't know anything.

First it was "You have no proof that Kubiak is calling red zone plays and Dennison calling between the 20's." I suppose now it will be that it's not Kubiak's fault if he has tendencies and is being CORRECTLY scouted by opposing teams' d-cooridnators.

Whatever. Proof is in the puddin'. You guys carry on....:tiphat:

We're not poking at you because you don't know anything... we all sympathize with you for that. It's these conspiracy type, tin foil hat, scenarios that you pull out of your ass.

Where does this, Dennison calls plays between the 20's then Kubiak takes control & screws it up in the Redzone crap come from. That's pure haterade.

Let it also be known as head coach, Kubiak will say he's got to do a better job in the redzone even if Dennison is calling the plays. He's the HC, he can override/veto any call, even Wade's... but you know Kubiak will always take the blame.

You're going to talk about his history, how do you explain last season? Another thing, some of those plays we've seen were right on, they were improperly executed.

GP
10-01-2011, 06:53 PM
We're not poking at you because you don't know anything... we all sympathize with you for that. It's these conspiracy type, tin foil hat, scenarios that you pull out of your ass.

Where does this, Dennison calls plays between the 20's then Kubiak takes control & screws it up in the Redzone crap come from. That's pure haterade.

Let it also be known as head coach, Kubiak will say he's got to do a better job in the redzone even if Dennison is calling the plays. He's the HC, he can override/veto any call, even Wade's... but you know Kubiak will always take the blame.

You're going to talk about his history, how do you explain last season? Another thing, some of those plays we've seen were right on, they were improperly executed.

TK, TK, TK....

Who was on here claiming Steve Slaton is running better NOW than he was in 2008 when he ran his best??? Answer: TK.

All I ask is for people to watch the offense between the 20's, then watch it in the Red Zone. Look at all things, not just effectiveness of plays. Look at players and their performance, at coaches body language and how Kubiak specifically gets more involved in the RZ, identify your own internal "reactions" as we are between the 20s and when we're in the RZ.

It's not tin foil hat conspiracy. It's an observation of a stark difference between the two situations, and all that is observed within both situations.

I have stated at least THREE pieces of information that you guys are not addressing. (1) Kubiak claimed he was going to be 'more of a head coach' and let his o-coord--Kyle Shanahan at the time--call the plays, (2) Kubiak calls a disastrous halfback pass on first down vs. Jags and later says "I made the call. It's on me," and (3) This past week he says--In an article about RED ZONE PLAYCALLS, btw ObsiWan--that he has to call better RZ plays."

Now I'm to believe that GARY KUBIAK is waiting for the call from Dennison in our RZ situations? The founder, architect, builder, and stockpiler of players--Gary Kubiak--is going to let Dennison call RZ plays in Gary's offense?

Which has the better chance of being "the conspiracy theory," everyone? Occam's razor will lead you into all truth, if you'll just let it.

thunderkyss
10-01-2011, 07:14 PM
TK, TK, TK....

Who was on here claiming Steve Slaton is running better NOW than he was in 2008 when he ran his best??? Answer: TK.

He is.

I have stated at least THREE pieces of information that you guys are not addressing.

All right, let's look at those.

(1) Kubiak claimed he was going to be 'more of a head coach' and let his o-coord--Kyle Shanahan at the time--call the plays,

Right, I remember that. I'm reminded about a cliche'd tea & China remark...

(2) Kubiak calls a disastrous halfback pass on first down vs. Jags and later says "I made the call. It's on me," and

Personally I loved the call, & that's when you call it, on first down. You want to take them by surprise & still give your self two opportunities at traditional plays if it didn't work. If there is any doubt, the RB should throw it away, instead Brown tries to play Montana & make a play... Boo on Kubiak for trusting Brown, maybe... but I like the call, hated the execution.

Second, it's always going to be on him. If he didn't veto whoever made the call, he takes the blame & he should.

(3) This past week he says--In an article about RED ZONE PLAYCALLS, btw ObsiWan--that he has to call better RZ plays."

To finish your argument, to the irrefutable level, we need proof that Dennison is calling the play's between the 20s & Kubiak doesn't intefere & that Kubiak means more than not using his veto power in the RZ.

Now I'm to believe that GARY KUBIAK is waiting for the call from Dennison in our RZ situations? The founder, architect, builder, and stockpiler of players--Gary Kubiak--is going to let Dennison call RZ plays in Gary's offense?

Which has the better chance of being "the conspiracy theory," everyone? Occam's razor will lead you into all truth, if you'll just let it.

I think they start working on the game plan on Thursday. I believe I heard/read that is when they start putting the script together. They do this again during halftime.

During the game, they are in constant communication with each other. The headset has two cups that fit on their ears, & a microphone in front of their mouth. They are probably throwing plays out all the time, I don't know if Kubiak gives him a "sounds good" or if his silence means it's good to go. I don't know if Kubiak is calling the plays & Dennison is telling him what he sees & what he thinks about what he sees.... something like

Kubiak: Pepper z: Y right: 9:9:9 hammer on Go
Dennison: Safeties have been pretty consistent on the 9s...
Kubiak: We're good... send it in.

I don't know & you've presented very little to say any different. For all we know the goal line plays can be similar:

Dennison: Halfback right, power lead; xy cross
Kubiak: No, I want the ball in Matt's hands
Dennison: calls another play

In that situation, even though Dennison is making the call, Kubiak can still say, "It's on me, I have to do better calling plays in the red zone"

ObsiWan
10-01-2011, 08:27 PM
GP, dude, you're getting wrapped around the axle on the wrong thing.

It doesn't really matter WHO called the plays.

When the EXECUTION sucks, there's a better than average chance that
the plays
will not
work.

Now every now and then, you can get lucky - see KW's TD catch where the Saints played volleyball and KW made one of those "damn, look what I found!" catches and cruised in for a score. By rights, the Saints should have had a pick due to our poor execution - bad pass by Schaub INTO coverage. But that one time, we got lucky.

But from where I sit, imprecise execution...
- poor decision making or bad passes by Schaub
- imprecise route running (guys aren't where they ought to be when they ought to be there)
- poor blitz pickup by the RBs (we all know that'll get your QB killed)
- second-rate blocking by the O-line (and all it takes is one of them to miss his block and his man, his assignment, can blow up a great play)

...is more the cause of our red zone failures than the play calling.

Oh and that statement that "there's plenty of real estate in the red zone" is off the mark. As a simple example, once you get down to the ten, a fair part of your route tree is unavailable. Double moves, 20-yd outs or ins, post patterns, fly patterns, all gone because there's insufficient real estate to run those. That means the defense can concentrate on stopping the shorter routes which makes their job a lot easier.
So to offset that disadvantage the offense must run timing routes or combo routes that make the DBs run into each other. And even if they do, your QB has to hit the WRs on time (and the WRs have to be where they're supposed to be at the right time) because they won't be open for very long. Note how guys like Brees and Brady and other gunslingers often throw the ball before guys are actually "open" because they count on their receivers being where they should be when they should be there. Schaub doesn't always trust his guys to do that.

Every NFL analyst I've ever seen says the same thing. Everything is COMPRESSED and speeded up when you get in the redzone. Every one of them.

steelbtexan
10-01-2011, 09:03 PM
Spot On

It was nice to meet you Sam. I really enjoyed watching the game with you.

It's all of the above and if the Texans are going to get better then Gary/Matt are going to have to do a better job in the red zone.

My question is how do the Lions always seem to find a way to get the ball to CJ in the red zone? But the Texans seem to struggle to get the ball to AJ in the red zone.

ObsiWan
10-01-2011, 09:26 PM
Spot On

It was nice to meet you Sam. I really enjoyed watching the game with you.

It's all of the above and if the Texans are going to get better then Gary/Matt are going to have to do a better job in the red zone.

My question is how do the Lions always seem to find a way to get the ball to CJ in the red zone? But the Texans seem to struggle to get the ball to AJ in the red zone.

Same here Steel. We'll all have to hook up again...

On the CJ jump ball thing, I'd have to see the Lions' redzone plays. The play where CJ scored on that jump ball started around the 25 or 30 I believe - not 100% sure. But if so, you have more room to have plays develop the farther away from the goal line you are.

Again, all the Lions' plays I ever see are highlights and those tend to show the isolation views where you just see the catch and not how the play unfolded.

steelbtexan
10-01-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm a big Stafford/CJ fan.

The Lions run fades/slants to CJ they also will run pick plays for CJ in the RZ.

If it's not there Stafford's 2nd read is usually Scheffler or Pettigrew. Much like OD's Schaub's 2nd read.

When is the last time you've seen a fade thrown to AJ inside the 10 yd line? He almost always runs the slant. I dont know if it's a weakness in AJ's game or Gary isn't utilizing AJ correctly.

Air Canada
10-02-2011, 04:13 AM
All I ask is for people to watch the offense between the 20's, then watch it in the Red Zone. Look at all things, not just effectiveness of plays. Look at players and their performance, at coaches body language and how Kubiak specifically gets more involved in the RZ, identify your own internal "reactions" as we are between the 20s and when we're in the RZ.

It's not tin foil hat conspiracy. It's an observation of a stark difference between the two situations, and all that is observed within both situations.

I have stated at least THREE pieces of information that you guys are not addressing. (1) Kubiak claimed he was going to be 'more of a head coach' and let his o-coord--Kyle Shanahan at the time--call the plays, (2) Kubiak calls a disastrous halfback pass on first down vs. Jags and later says "I made the call. It's on me," and (3) This past week he says--In an article about RED ZONE PLAYCALLS, btw ObsiWan--that he has to call better RZ plays."
Now I'm to believe that GARY KUBIAK is waiting for the call from Dennison in our RZ situations? The founder, architect, builder, and stockpiler of players--Gary Kubiak--is going to let Dennison call RZ plays in Gary's offense?

Which has the better chance of being "the conspiracy theory," everyone? Occam's razor will lead you into all truth, if you'll just let it.

Definitely yours... Cuz the worst conspiracies.... Heavily lack TANGIBLE evidence just like witness testimony convictions... :user:

Go check the new thread where in an article about our red zone problems, Kubiak says "I have to call things better."

That's my factual evidence.

And there's 5+ years of film on Kubiak calling red zone plays. Which means teams can scout tendencies.

Wouldn't it be cool if Dennison started calling plays in the red zone, and Kubiak faked it like he (Kubiak) was chattering in the headset but the whole time the call was coming from Dennison?

Pretty weak "factual" evidence... So yes it does sound like reaching and excessive haterade... Not that it matters :tiphat:

Look, you guys have fuuuuuun bashing me like I don't know anything.

Not ANYTHING GP... Just this :lol:

First it was "You have no proof that Kubiak is calling red zone plays and Dennison calling between the 20's." I suppose now it will be that it's not Kubiak's fault if he has tendencies and is being CORRECTLY scouted by opposing teams' d-cooridnators.

Cuz... ummm... YOU DON'T..

Whatever. Proof is in the puddin'. You guys carry on....:tiphat:

That does nothing to prove the point... Your alleged "evidence" are quotes... :smiliepalm:

That has to be least reliable form of evidence to make such a bold claim as all those things can be said by all NFL Head Coaches and WE ALL KNOW that Kubiak always puts the blame on himself first and foremost even if something was just poorly executed...


Second, it's always going to be on him. If he didn't veto whoever made the call, he takes the blame & he should.

To finish your argument, to the irrefutable level, we need proof that Dennison is calling the play's between the 20s & Kubiak doesn't intefere & that Kubiak means more than not using his veto power in the RZ.

ALSO THIS MAKES AN OBVIOUS POINT^ :runaway:

Maddict5
10-02-2011, 08:13 AM
:pigfly:

ive heard it all now. at least mothership is an appropriate word to have in the title. gives the impression of aliens/conspiracy/crazy ppl being inside

BlueSteel
10-02-2011, 08:14 AM
Go check the new thread where in an article about our red zone problems, Kubiak says "I have to call things better."

That's my factual evidence.


Yeah, Kubes also says after every loss, "It is all on me, I have to fix things and turn this around."

I see no reason why this quote you used as FACT is any different than Kubes always falling on his sword rather than blaming others. Then again, I am not looking to throw Kubes under the bus right now either...

Ryan
10-02-2011, 09:26 AM
When is the last time you've seen a fade thrown to AJ inside the 10 yd line? He almost always runs the slant. I dont know if it's a weakness in AJ's game or Gary isn't utilizing AJ correctly.

There's no such thing as a weakness for Andre, personally i think Kubiak is more worried of a turnover in that situation due to a poor throw by Schaub or something like that.

steelbtexan
10-02-2011, 09:43 AM
There's no such thing as a weakness for Andre, personally i think Kubiak is more worried of a turnover in that situation due to a poor throw by Schaub or something like that.

I think you're on to something.

Garys conervative ways are due to fear of failure.

This fear is what's ultimately going to be the cause of his downfall. After BoBBy gives him a nice going away present like he did with HWWNBM.

Maddict5
10-02-2011, 11:55 AM
There's no such thing as a weakness for Andre, personally i think Kubiak is more worried of a turnover in that situation due to a poor throw by Schaub or something like that.

really? how come ppl act like aj is perfect. dont get me wrong aj is great & a hof'er but hes not perfect either- no player is.

aj is a great wr but hes not in the same league as megatron or fitz (guys who see alot of fades) in terms of leaping ability and grabbing the ball at its highest pt. imo thats why he doesnt see fades. as far as i can remember his last fade pass was against the titans 2nd cb (nick harper iirc). it was a 50/50 ball that either was or nearly was intercepted. i only remember it because i remember a few 'i guess that why kubes doesnt call the fade to aj more' post in our gameday thread when it happened

EllisUnit
10-02-2011, 12:04 PM
really? how come ppl act like aj is perfect. dont get me wrong aj is great & a hof'er but hes not perfect either- no player is.

aj is a great wr but hes not in the same league as megatron or fitz (guys who see alot of fades) in terms of leaping ability and grabbing the ball at its highest pt. imo thats why he doesnt see fades. as far as i can remember his last fade pass was against the titans 2nd cb (nick harper iirc). it was a 50/50 ball that either was or nearly was intercepted. i only remember it because i remember a few 'i guess that why kubes doesnt call the fade to aj more' post in our gameday thread when it happened

Seriously ???????????? HAHA i have heard it all

Maddict5
10-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Seriously ???????????? HAHA i have heard it all

:vincepalm:

post first, ask questions later. dont read the whole sentence or anything. underline a certain part to twist it. good job

EllisUnit
10-02-2011, 12:49 PM
:vincepalm:

post first, ask questions later. dont read the whole sentence or anything. underline a certain part to twist it. good job

oh i read it u were saying he's not in the same caliber about going up and getting a ball at the highest point. I have to call B.S on that i have watched AJ play since his first game and i have seen him out jump MANY CBs in his career.

The Cush
10-02-2011, 12:54 PM
oh i read it u were saying he's not in the same caliber about going up and getting a ball at the highest point. I have to call B.S on that i have watched AJ play since his first game and i have seen him out jump MANY CBs in his career.

Haha seriously. He did that over Reed Doughty in that shootout with the Skins which ended up being one of the top 10 plays of the year last year. It's been replayed over and over, how can anyone make a claim the guy isn't in the same class as anyone when he is in a class of his own.

DexmanC
10-02-2011, 04:03 PM
Looks like Kubiak forgot to limit Foster at all.

Wolf
10-02-2011, 04:11 PM
had no choice
OB27 was only other one left