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eriadoc
08-30-2011, 11:36 PM
You want to know why it's taken Kubiak longer than he should have been given to create a winning team? Look no further than the 2007 and 2008 drafts. They brought this up on the radio this morning, and it struck a chord with me, so I went and looked up exactly who was taken.

2007
Amobi Okoye - most people knew this was a mistake at the time. I wanted to believe, but even if I was optimistic about Okoye, I knew the team wasn't good enough to waste a 1st round pick on a project.

Jacoby Jones - still with the team, and I know people are always hoping for good things from him, but honestly, if you spend a 3rd round pick on a player, you'd like to see a little more out of him by this point. Still, when compared to the other players from these drafts, JJ is a hit.

Fred Bennett - just .... wow. If the guy was good enough to have the year he had as a rookie, shouldn't he be good enough to be in the league right now? Where the hell is he, anyway?

Brandon Harrison - we've still never drafted a quality safety. Maybe we'll stumble into a homegrown one in Quin.

Brandon Frye - where is he now?

Kasey Studdard - still with the team, but he's not good. Then again, he's a 6th round pick, so I am not bagging on the team for this pick.

Zach Diles - solid player, especially for a 7th round pick. I've never thought he should be a starter, but he should be a quality backup. Is he here this year? I haven't heard from him this preseason, and I've lost track of players due to the lockout.

2008
Duane Brown - best player from these two drafts. He's not the best LT in the league, but he's very good in our system, and I think he's underrated as a run blocker.

Antwaun Molden - when this team had the worst secondary in the history of the NFL, Molden couldn't get on the field. In fact, the team went out and picked up Jason Allen from the scrap heap and started him right away. And I don't buy the "stayed injured" crap, either, because he'd frequently show up on kick coverage. If you're healthy enough to run down the field and collide with people going that speed, then you're healthy enough to put on your best Petey Faggins impression. The only thing worse than Molden's complete lack of impact on the field was Kubiak wasting a roster spot on him every year. If he was so bad that he couldn't get on the field, why take a job from someone else?

Steve Slaton - here's where I know may of you will differ with me, but I was never a real Slaton fan. I just felt like his 1200 yard season was the biggest smoke and mirrors job since Timmy Smith put up 230+ yards rushing in the Super Bowl. I was hoping he'd become our version of Reggie Bush to catch screen passes, take some pitches, and run a few draw plays while our #1 back (that never emerged that year) did the bruising, hard yards. So I give him credit for doing what he did, but I was still unconvinced. Unfortunately, I'll never know whether he could have excelled with a true #1 back doing the dirty work, because the guy fumbles the gloves right off his hands. So now he's gone. Wait ... is it official yet? I don't want to jump the gun.

Xavier Adibi - see Antwaun Molden for my thoughts on this guy.

Frank Okam - should never have drafted the guy if you thought he wasn't going to play motivated, and you should never have drafted the guy if you had any clue he was going to be a waste of human fat. And since they're paid to have a clue about these sorts of things .....

Dominique Barber - This guy is still trying. He's just not that good. I have nothing really against the guy, and especially since he's a 6th round pick, I just can't blast the team too much for this one, but a miss is a miss, no matter what round they come in. The later rounds obviously have more misses. That's just reality.

Alex Brink - I file this one with BJ Symons and Jared Zabransky. I honestly don't think Kubiak ever really had any intention of going with them, since he was only planning to carry two QBs, so I'm not sure why the wasted draft pick. 7th rounder, so I'm not going to kill them over it, but why? *shrug*

Anyway, for that two year period, we are entering the time period when those guys should be the core of the team. We got Duane Brown and Jacoby Jones. I know, we got Matt Schaub as well, but I don't consider him part of the draft, because someone else developed him at the pro level for three years. The Texans didn't scout him, assign a draft grade, and make the hard choice about who to pass up to take him. He's a good pick-up obviously, but the fact that he might be the best argument for those two drafts ought to be indictment enough.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Texaninlild
08-30-2011, 11:40 PM
Do you like anyone?

TexanSam
08-30-2011, 11:45 PM
Guess I'd never really thought about how bad those drafts really were. Casserly-like.

buddyboy
08-30-2011, 11:50 PM
I think it's too early to label a lot of these players, mostly the defensive ones. Our defensive coaches have been horse doo doo. We can see the impact Wade Phillips has made on the defense, so I still have moderate hopes for Adibi.

Diles was a pretty solid starter for us for a while, and Slaton played at a very high level, again, for a while. I'd have to give them some sort of props for that. The two failures at DB are a bit painful...and I'd have loved to see what Okoye would have done in this new system.

Vinnie
08-30-2011, 11:58 PM
Yep, terrible drafts and both pretty defense heavy. Who was drafting for that defense anyway? Kubiak? Must have been to miss that bad. Or the numbskulls he put into place to run it. :kubepalm:

Vinnie
08-31-2011, 12:00 AM
I'd have loved to see what Okoye would have done in this new system.

At what? DE?

BattleRedToro
08-31-2011, 12:20 AM
Zac Diles signed with the St Louis Rams when free agency began, and is expected to be a starter for them this year.

I don't think the book is closed on Xavier Adibi, yet. He looks like he will make the Texans final roster this year, and be a contributor in the inside linebacker rotation.

buddyboy
08-31-2011, 01:54 AM
At what? DE?

Yes, at DE. No guarantees he would make an impact, but I wish we'd had a legit DC in the years when we were developing him.

beerlover
08-31-2011, 03:06 AM
Schaub is never included, yet he is a borderline top 10 QB & instrumental in each of those draft make-ups. Still even with him they were only average to below average. I suppose if they had just selected Darrelle Revis instead of Amobi Okoye in 07 & Chris Johnson in 08 results would have soared to above average :brando:

Wolf6151
08-31-2011, 03:48 AM
I suppose if they had just selected Darrelle Revis instead of Amobi Okoye in 07 & Chris Johnson in 08 results would have soared to above average :brando:

Not necessarily. Part of Revis success surely lies with the team, system, and coaching staff that he went to. He went to a team/coaching staff that could develope talent unlike the Texans. With our terrible coaching staff, that Kubiak hand picked, Revis may have been terrible. We'll never know.

Those 2 drafts were awsomely bad and Kubiak was in charge of them. Kubiak knows nothing about evaluating defensive talent.

Corrosion
08-31-2011, 04:06 AM
At what? DE?

Ive always said I thought 0k0y3 was best suited to being a 3-4 DE rather than a DT in a 4-3. Go back and search post history. Bet Ive said it 20 times .....

He's been pretty good in Chicago .... although its a 4-3 . They give up the fewest yards per pass attempt in the NFL so far in the preseason ..... (5.0) 0k0y3 has 3 sacks and 5 tackles so far this preseason.

Houston is 5th in that statistic - Hell of an improvement over last season.

dream_team
08-31-2011, 04:17 AM
How can you not include Schaub in these drafts? We gave up two 2nd rounders for him. So if we never made that trade, then they'd at least have two 2nd rounders to make these drafts look better.

I don't think these drafts were bad, but they weren't good either. I think these were just mediocre drafts for the Texans.

Corrosion
08-31-2011, 04:21 AM
How can you not include Schaub in these drafts? We gave up two 2nd rounders for him. So if we never made that trade, then they'd at least have two 2nd rounders to make these drafts look better.

I don't think these drafts were bad, but they weren't good either. I think these were just mediocre drafts for the Texans.

When you miss in the first round like they did with 0k0y3 .... its not mediocre , its bad.

eriadoc
08-31-2011, 10:06 AM
How can you not include Schaub in these drafts?

Pretty sure I explained that in my original post.

nero THE zero
08-31-2011, 10:14 AM
It's revisionist history at best and downright dishonest at worst to say "most people knew this was a mistake at the time" in regards to Okoye.

He was universally held as one of the best players in the draft. It's not like we surprised everyone and drafted Donte Whitner. Some might have preferred another player, but to call him a "mistake at the time" is inaccurate.

That said, I completely agree with the sentiment of the thread. Those two drafts were completely awful.

Honoring Earl 34
08-31-2011, 10:19 AM
Ive always said I thought 0k0y3 was best suited to being a 3-4 DE rather than a DT in a 4-3. Go back and search post history. Bet Ive said it 20 times .....

He's been pretty good in Chicago .... although its a 4-3 . They give up the fewest yards per pass attempt in the NFL so far in the preseason ..... (5.0) 0k0y3 has 3 sacks and 5 tackles so far this preseason.

Houston is 5th in that statistic - Hell of an improvement over last season.

Okoye's surge probably has as much to do with getting a new contract as anything .

A 3-4 DE is usually a taller guy than okoye's 6'1 .

nero THE zero
08-31-2011, 10:26 AM
Okoye's surge probably has as much to do with getting a new contract as anything .

A 3-4 DE is usually a taller guy than okoye's 6'1 .

Yep. 3-4 DE are supposed to be at least 6'4". He's not long enough nor stout enough to play the position.

He's in his best case scenario as a 3-tech in Chicago under Marinelli.

Doppelganger
08-31-2011, 10:50 AM
Yep. 3-4 DE are supposed to be at least 6'4". He's not long enough nor stout enough to play the position.

He's in his best case scenario as a 3-tech in Chicago under Marinelli.

He is a stout run blocker and a poor rusher. I think, if he put on some weight, he could be a solid 3-4 NT or 4-3 DT that was just paid to clog and run block.

eriadoc
08-31-2011, 10:51 AM
It's revisionist history at best and downright dishonest at worst to say "most people knew this was a mistake at the time" in regards to Okoye.

It's not revisionist history, because it's true. Most people (OK, maybe I'll revise to a lot of people; happy?) knew at the time that he was a bad pick for the Texans. While he may have been a great pick for another team (or not, as it turns out), the Texans didn't have the luxury of taking on a 19-yr old project player. I had countless discussions with people about that very point. As a homer and Kool Aid drinker, I wanted it to be a good pick. And to be honest, I think Okoye may still turn out to be a good player. But teams these days don't draft players in the first couple rounds expecting them to be good a few years down the road. They expect them to be good now.

Rey
08-31-2011, 11:00 AM
Ive always said I thought 0k0y3 was best suited to being a 3-4 DE rather than a DT in a 4-3. Go back and search post history. Bet Ive said it 20 times .....

He's been pretty good in Chicago .... although its a 4-3 . They give up the fewest yards per pass attempt in the NFL so far in the preseason ..... (5.0) 0k0y3 has 3 sacks and 5 tackles so far this preseason.

Houston is 5th in that statistic - Hell of an improvement over last season.

I think cutting okoye was a cap move.

Surely he could have competed with bulman, Lewis, and berry for roster spots.

Vinny
08-31-2011, 11:05 AM
He is a stout run blocker and a poor rusher. I think, if he put on some weight, he could be a solid 3-4 NT or 4-3 DT that was just paid to clog and run block.
actually, he's really not a "stout" run guy. He is a pursuit guy, but gets moved off his spot too easily. That is really why he is no longer here. He doesn't have enough ability to anchor. He's excellent in backside pursuit though. Not really a trait for a 3-4 lineman. Also as stated above, he isn't long enough.

steelbtexan
08-31-2011, 11:05 AM
How can you not include Schaub in these drafts? We gave up two 2nd rounders for him. So if we never made that trade, then they'd at least have two 2nd rounders to make these drafts look better.

I don't think these drafts were bad, but they weren't good either. I think these were just mediocre drafts for the Texans.

I agree on the Schaub thing,

But if those weren't terribly bad drafts, what would constitute a horrible pile of dung draft in your mind?

steelbtexan
08-31-2011, 11:07 AM
actually, he's really not a "stout" run guy. He is a pursuit guy, but gets moved off his spot too easily. That is really why he is no longer here. He doesn't have enough ability to anchor. He's excellent in backside pursuit though. Not really a trait for a 3-4 lineman. Also as stated above, he isn't long enough.

Great to see you back Vinny.

This post is spot on.

drs23
08-31-2011, 12:44 PM
[QUOTE=eriadoc;1763980]Zach Diles - solid player, especially for a 7th round pick. I've never thought he should be a starter, but he should be a quality backup. Is he here this year? I haven't heard from him this preseason, and I've lost track of players due to the lockout.

As BattleRedToro states he's playing for the Rams now. I watched him play the other night and he looked damn solid. His name was called several times and highlighted on replays as well. Looks like he may end up doing a good job for them.

On a side note, those Rams are looking pretty good. Will not be surprised to see them make a stout run this year. I'm going to follow along and see how they progess. I think they had a solid draft and free agency shopping spree.

noxiousdog
08-31-2011, 01:07 PM
It's not revisionist history, because it's true. Most people (OK, maybe I'll revise to a lot of people; happy?) knew at the time that he was a bad pick for the Texans. While he may have been a great pick for another team (or not, as it turns out), the Texans didn't have the luxury of taking on a 19-yr old project player. I had countless discussions with people about that very point. As a homer and Kool Aid drinker, I wanted it to be a good pick. And to be honest, I think Okoye may still turn out to be a good player. But teams these days don't draft players in the first couple rounds expecting them to be good a few years down the road. They expect them to be good now.

Texans talk liked the pick 94% to 6% (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=613)

Also, most draft picks are busts in the grand scheme of things. If you get 2 to 3 players a year you're doing rather well. I'm not excusing the Texans here, but the grade has to be on a relative basis.

2006 draft (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006/draft.htm) (thougt you can go to any year off links).

An interesting way to do it is sort by team and see the number of games each player was in (80 would be the max from 2006). Of course, that doesn't easily tell you if it was for the orignal team or not. Also, the non bolded players aren't even in the league.

I'd do the quick totals, but I'm not at work and don't have access to excel. :(

Corrosion
08-31-2011, 05:07 PM
I think cutting okoye was a cap move.

Surely he could have competed with bulman, Lewis, and berry for roster spots.

Agree'd ....

With the teams current cap situation , I cant really blame them.

nero THE zero
08-31-2011, 05:10 PM
actually, he's really not a "stout" run guy. He is a pursuit guy, but gets moved off his spot too easily. That is really why he is no longer here. He doesn't have enough ability to anchor. He's excellent in backside pursuit though. Not really a trait for a 3-4 lineman. Also as stated above, he isn't long enough.

Yep. This is what I meant by "stout."

Hervoyel
08-31-2011, 05:38 PM
It's revisionist history at best and downright dishonest at worst to say "most people knew this was a mistake at the time" in regards to Okoye.

He was universally held as one of the best players in the draft. It's not like we surprised everyone and drafted Donte Whitner. Some might have preferred another player, but to call him a "mistake at the time" is inaccurate.

That said, I completely agree with the sentiment of the thread. Those two drafts were completely awful.

I was in a room with a few people from the board and you could see that "Who farted?" look on a lot of faces when they called his name. We all started working on our Kool Aid as soon as it was done but to say he was some kind of consensus "YES!" pick is a little much. Maybe he wasn't Donte Whitner-like but he was a reach at a time when you couldn't afford to be drafting teenagers and hoping they became NFL players. Hell, even if Okoye had come with a warranty that guaranteed he'd be the player we all expected when he finished growing up it was still a bad pick. The Texans didn't have the time to wait on a guy who was that green. Not when there were outstanding players still waiting to hear their names called.

Hervoyel
08-31-2011, 05:39 PM
actually, he's really not a "stout" run guy. He is a pursuit guy, but gets moved off his spot too easily. That is really why he is no longer here. He doesn't have enough ability to anchor. He's excellent in backside pursuit though. Not really a trait for a 3-4 lineman. Also as stated above, he isn't long enough.

He eventually earned that nickname we were all searching for back on draft day.

Unfortunately it turned out to be "The Shopping Cart".

chicagotexan2
09-01-2011, 12:52 AM
WOw those were really bad drafts. I lost faith in smith after the okoye draft, but this years crop may actually give him and kubiak a reprieve. When you really dig into the draft and fa history it's easy to see why 9-7 is the best we've done. What's not so easy to see is why the two constants remain inspite of the bad desicions. I do have real hope this season though.

Vinny
09-01-2011, 01:00 AM
I was in a room with a few people from the board and you could see that "Who farted?" look on a lot of faces when they called his name. We all started working on our Kool Aid as soon as it was done but to say he was some kind of consensus "YES!" pick is a little much. Maybe he wasn't Donte Whitner-like but he was a reach at a time when you couldn't afford to be drafting teenagers and hoping they became NFL players. Hell, even if Okoye had come with a warranty that guaranteed he'd be the player we all expected when he finished growing up it was still a bad pick. The Texans didn't have the time to wait on a guy who was that green. Not when there were outstanding players still waiting to hear their names called.
some pretty sharp guys eating eggrolls in that loft if memory serves. One of those Buschbaum wannabes really wanted Darrelle Revis, but we don't always get what we want now do we? I think Keith from HPF (rip) was mildly on board with the pick (for the most part), but was worried about his age issue as well. No slam dunk consensus in that room for sure.

BigBull17
09-01-2011, 01:12 PM
I just know I was excited when we came on the clock because I LOVED Patrick Wilis. I was very sad when we didn't get him. I KNEW it wouldn't work. And now CHicago may get the player he was supose to be.

welsh texan
09-01-2011, 02:26 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1740303#post1740303

Exactly the point I made a couple of weeks ago. Watch out for Toan Neg repping you for not discussing the other 3 drafts of the Smithiak era and whether they were success or failure, when challenged as to how I'm meant to rate the 2011 draft he failed to reply. Moron.

Anyway, yeh, I totally agree, these two drafts have set us back 3 or 4 years IMO, especially when you consider how long many of these scrubs have stayed on the team, many of them with significant playing time.

Bare in mind that Rick Smith played no part in the 2006 draft and you begin to build a picture right there, I can deal with Kubiak making bad calls or failing to hire a decent DC in his first five years and frankly if he goes on to be successful will applaud him for riding it out, but Smith, what happens if we lose Wade and we go back to having Smith deciding which draft talent to bring in?? Scary.

bo orlando
09-01-2011, 02:38 PM
You want to know why it's taken Kubiak longer than he should have been given to create a winning team? Look no further than the 2007 and 2008 drafts. They brought this up on the radio this morning, and it struck a chord with me, so I went and looked up exactly who was taken...

Anyway, for that two year period, we are entering the time period when those guys should be the core of the team. We got Duane Brown and Jacoby Jones. I know, we got Matt Schaub as well, but I don't consider him part of the draft, because someone else developed him at the pro level for three years. The Texans didn't scout him, assign a draft grade, and make the hard choice about who to pass up to take him. He's a good pick-up obviously, but the fact that he might be the best argument for those two drafts ought to be indictment enough.


These drafts just show that Kubiak and Smith know how to scout offense and are awful at defense. Both are defense-heavy drafts, yet the only decent players are the few offensive players Brown, Jacoby, and Slaton (not to mention a virtual home run in Schaub). In fact, the only offensive player who didn't work out is a 7th round QB. Compare this to nearly every defensive player failing.

Wade to the rescue!

noxiousdog
09-01-2011, 05:15 PM
So, have access to excel now.

For 2006, 2007, 2008 the largest number of games played by drafted players was GB at 1177 followed by CAR, BAL, SFO, and Dallas.

The bottom 5 are CLE, DET, PIT, SDG, and WAS (621).

Houston is squarely in the middle (#14) at 834.

Leaving out 2006, makes the top five ATL (700), followed by GNB, CAR, OAK, BAL. Bottom 5 MIN, SDG, NYJ, CLE, NWE (289).

Houston is again in the middle (#17) with 469.

Since some good teams are on the list, I changed it to average games played by a drafted player. Over the 3 year period, that changes the most games played per drafted player to DEN (42), CAR, DAL, ARI, NYG, with the bottom 5 being STL, DET, PIT, CIN, NWE (25). Houston is higher on the list (#8) at 39.7.

DocBar
09-01-2011, 07:55 PM
You want to know why it's taken Kubiak longer than he should have been given to create a winning team? Look no further than the 2007 and 2008 drafts. They brought this up on the radio this morning, and it struck a chord with me, so I went and looked up exactly who was taken.

2007
Amobi Okoye - most people knew this was a mistake at the time. I wanted to believe, but even if I was optimistic about Okoye, I knew the team wasn't good enough to waste a 1st round pick on a project.

Jacoby Jones - still with the team, and I know people are always hoping for good things from him, but honestly, if you spend a 3rd round pick on a player, you'd like to see a little more out of him by this point. Still, when compared to the other players from these drafts, JJ is a hit.

Fred Bennett - just .... wow. If the guy was good enough to have the year he had as a rookie, shouldn't he be good enough to be in the league right now? Where the hell is he, anyway?

Brandon Harrison - we've still never drafted a quality safety. Maybe we'll stumble into a homegrown one in Quin.

Brandon Frye - where is he now?

Kasey Studdard - still with the team, but he's not good. Then again, he's a 6th round pick, so I am not bagging on the team for this pick.

Zach Diles - solid player, especially for a 7th round pick. I've never thought he should be a starter, but he should be a quality backup. Is he here this year? I haven't heard from him this preseason, and I've lost track of players due to the lockout.

2008
Duane Brown - best player from these two drafts. He's not the best LT in the league, but he's very good in our system, and I think he's underrated as a run blocker.

Antwaun Molden - when this team had the worst secondary in the history of the NFL, Molden couldn't get on the field. In fact, the team went out and picked up Jason Allen from the scrap heap and started him right away. And I don't buy the "stayed injured" crap, either, because he'd frequently show up on kick coverage. If you're healthy enough to run down the field and collide with people going that speed, then you're healthy enough to put on your best Petey Faggins impression. The only thing worse than Molden's complete lack of impact on the field was Kubiak wasting a roster spot on him every year. If he was so bad that he couldn't get on the field, why take a job from someone else?

Steve Slaton - here's where I know may of you will differ with me, but I was never a real Slaton fan. I just felt like his 1200 yard season was the biggest smoke and mirrors job since Timmy Smith put up 230+ yards rushing in the Super Bowl. I was hoping he'd become our version of Reggie Bush to catch screen passes, take some pitches, and run a few draw plays while our #1 back (that never emerged that year) did the bruising, hard yards. So I give him credit for doing what he did, but I was still unconvinced. Unfortunately, I'll never know whether he could have excelled with a true #1 back doing the dirty work, because the guy fumbles the gloves right off his hands. So now he's gone. Wait ... is it official yet? I don't want to jump the gun.

Xavier Adibi - see Antwaun Molden for my thoughts on this guy.

Frank Okam - should never have drafted the guy if you thought he wasn't going to play motivated, and you should never have drafted the guy if you had any clue he was going to be a waste of human fat. And since they're paid to have a clue about these sorts of things .....

Dominique Barber - This guy is still trying. He's just not that good. I have nothing really against the guy, and especially since he's a 6th round pick, I just can't blast the team too much for this one, but a miss is a miss, no matter what round they come in. The later rounds obviously have more misses. That's just reality.

Alex Brink - I file this one with BJ Symons and Jared Zabransky. I honestly don't think Kubiak ever really had any intention of going with them, since he was only planning to carry two QBs, so I'm not sure why the wasted draft pick. 7th rounder, so I'm not going to kill them over it, but why? *shrug*

Anyway, for that two year period, we are entering the time period when those guys should be the core of the team. We got Duane Brown and Jacoby Jones. I know, we got Matt Schaub as well, but I don't consider him part of the draft, because someone else developed him at the pro level for three years. The Texans didn't scout him, assign a draft grade, and make the hard choice about who to pass up to take him. He's a good pick-up obviously, but the fact that he might be the best argument for those two drafts ought to be indictment enough.

Anyway, just some food for thought.Nice post. I disagree with you on Diles. I like him and think he provides valuable depth. Adibi is starter material on a lot of teams and is providing us with good depth this year.
I completely agree with you on Slaton. I pegged him early on as having a fluke season and thought he'd revert back to what we drafted: a poor mans Reggie Bush.
Brown is a serviceable LT, but I think he'd be better at RT. I don't question his run blocking as much as his pass-pro against above average talent. It's obvious to all he struggles against elite talent. That's why they're elite talents.
JJ? Most know my views on him
Like a pot of fans, I was leery but hopeful with Okoye. After his 3rd season, I wrote him off. I think he has talent, but like you said, we had no business taking on a project like this.
As for the rest, the writing was pretty much on the wall on draft day.
As far as Schaub goes, I think the lack of two 2nd round picks actually helps make Kubiak look better. Two less chances for failure.

Insideop
09-02-2011, 09:38 AM
Fred Bennett is with Arizona now. Don't know if he'll stick. As for Adibi, he's been pretty good this year in preseason and could turn out to be a good backup and ST's player. He's really thriving in Wades system. Okoye is doing well in Chicago and Diles may be doing well with the Rams. So, maybe those draft's weren't as bad as they look, especially if you count Schaub (I do) as part of the deal.

As for Kubes and Rick making the picks, I have to wonder how much influence Richard Smith (DC) had in the selections of the defensive players? My guess is he had a lot to do with it and maybe some of the blame/credit should lie with him.

TEXANRED
09-02-2011, 09:42 AM
Do you like anyone?

He's got a point. We are still riding the 2006 draft for quility players.

BigBull17
09-02-2011, 09:46 AM
Nice post. I disagree with you on Diles. I like him and think he provides valuable depth. Adibi is starter material on a lot of teams and is providing us with good depth this year.
I completely agree with you on Slaton. I pegged him early on as having a fluke season and thought he'd revert back to what we drafted: a poor mans Reggie Bush.
Brown is a serviceable LT, but I think he'd be better at RT. I don't question his run blocking as much as his pass-pro against above average talent. It's obvious to all he struggles against elite talent. That's why they're elite talents.
JJ? Most know my views on him
Like a pot of fans, I was leery but hopeful with Okoye. After his 3rd season, I wrote him off. I think he has talent, but like you said, we had no business taking on a project like this.
As for the rest, the writing was pretty much on the wall on draft day.
As far as Schaub goes, I think the lack of two 2nd round picks actually helps make Kubiak look better. Two less chances for failure.

Problem with Diles is that they never looked for any kind of upgrade. He is great depth/special teams, but if he is depended on to be a starter, your LB's have a weakness.

thunderkyss
09-02-2011, 10:54 AM
I was in a room with a few people from the board and you could see that "Who farted?" look on a lot of faces when they called his name. We all started working on our Kool Aid as soon as it was done but to say he was some kind of consensus "YES!" pick is a little much.

I remember it the other way. There was a pretty good faction saying Amobi was the way to go. I remember I was hoping for a CB, & I think the info I got from this board was that there wasn't a corner worth taking with the 10 & advised a trade down....

When they picked Amobi, my reaction was, damn, didn't get the CB, didn't trade down. At least the guys on the board will be happy.


& yes, as odd as this sounds, according to my memory (which I know is suspect) Darrelle Revis was not thought of as a top ten player at the time of the draft.

Another thing.... I remember the argument about Okoye was his youth. But the supporters opined that he would be hitting his prime about the a year or two after Demeco & Mario would, making our D dominant for a long span.


thunderkyss
09-02-2011, 10:56 AM
So, have access to excel now.

For 2006, 2007, 2008 the largest number of games played by drafted players was GB at 1177 followed by CAR, BAL, SFO, and Dallas.

The bottom 5 are CLE, DET, PIT, SDG, and WAS (621).

Houston is squarely in the middle (#14) at 834.

Leaving out 2006, makes the top five ATL (700), followed by GNB, CAR, OAK, BAL. Bottom 5 MIN, SDG, NYJ, CLE, NWE (289).

Houston is again in the middle (#17) with 469.

Since some good teams are on the list, I changed it to average games played by a drafted player. Over the 3 year period, that changes the most games played per drafted player to DEN (42), CAR, DAL, ARI, NYG, with the bottom 5 being STL, DET, PIT, CIN, NWE (25). Houston is higher on the list (#8) at 39.7.

Good stuff....... MSR



thunderkyss
09-02-2011, 11:05 AM
You want to know why it's taken Kubiak longer than he should have been given to create a winning team? Look no further than the 2007 and 2008 drafts. They brought this up on the radio this morning, and it struck a chord with me, so I went and looked up exactly who was taken.

2007

Jacoby Jones - still with the team, and I know people are always hoping for good things from him, but honestly, if you spend a 3rd round pick on a player, you'd like to see a little more out of him by this point. Still, when compared to the other players from these drafts, JJ is a hit.


When you said, "who was taken" I was hoping you would go into who we should have taken, with a little reasoning behind it. It would have made for good conversation.

We can knock the Jacoby pick, but as far as 3rd round WRs go (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2007&round=round3#round3), I think only Johnny Lee-Higgins would be a close comparison for production from that spot. Higgins wasn't taken for another 23 picks..... so I don't know that anyone would have thought, "Do you think we should take Higgins here?"

The Packer took James Jones after we took Jacoby, so maybe that was an option.

Breaston taken 69 picks later???? maybe that's what we should have done? Legadu Naanee..... 100 picks later?

Maybe you didn't want to go WR.. maybe you wanted BPA in the 3rd round of 2007 (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2007&round=round3#round3)..... who would that have been?

I think we got as much out of Jacoby as anyone got out of anyone that was selected in the 3rd round of 2007.




Blake
09-02-2011, 11:29 AM
You want to know why it's taken Kubiak longer than he should have been given to create a winning team? Look no further than the 2007 and 2008 drafts. They brought this up on the radio this morning, and it struck a chord with me, so I went and looked up exactly who was taken.


A couple of bad years for sure. But I dont think that is that much different from other teams who might have 2 years of misses.

Ravens (Not counting draft picks traded for Free Agents)
2007
1 Ben Grubbs (Starting LG)
3 Yamon Figurs (Not with team.
3 Marshal Yanda (Starting RG)
4 Antwan Barnes (Not with team)
4 Le'Ron McClain (Not with team)
5 Troy Smith (Not with team)
6 Prescott Burgess (Traded to NE for 7th. Nullified. Resigned with Ravens. 2nd string SLB)
Supplemental Draft: 5 Jared Gaither (Not with team)

2008

1 Ray Rice (Starting RB)
3 Tavares Gooden (2nd string MLB)
3 Tom Zibikowski (Starting SS)
3 Oniel Cousins (Not with team)
4 Marcus Smith (2nd string WR)
4 David Hale (Not with team)
6 Haruki Nakamura (2nd string FS)
7 Justin Harper (Not with team)
7 Allen Patrick (Not with team)

So the Ravens, a team that is in the playoff hunt most years have 8/17 players they drafted these 2 years still on the roster, with only 3 of them being starters. 2 guards and a SS. Texans have 6/14 still on the roster, with a starting LT.

I cant say that the Ravens "drafted" any better than the Texans in those 2 years. So maybe its not a lack of drafting ability, but a lack of talent in those years.

Blake
09-02-2011, 01:47 PM
No responses? I thought this was a pretty good post pointing out that our drafts arent as bad as we make them out to be.

eriadoc
09-02-2011, 01:54 PM
A couple of bad years for sure. But I dont think that is that much different from other teams who might have 2 years of misses.

Teams with a roster full of good players, and even more importantly a system that turns players into winners, can afford a couple bad years of drafting and overcome. Maybe they don't win the SB, but they compete for the playoffs. When you inherit what Kubiak inherited, you can't afford to blow two years.

One of the things I've been extremely happy with Kubiak about is the offense (duh). What I mean by that, however, is he came here and focused on what he does well. Contrast that to Capers, who came here, started off with a decent defense, and let the defense turn awful. So I have no problem with Kubiak delegating defense. I have a problem with who he chose to direct/build the defense. So at the end of the day, whether you believe the team drafted bad players, didn't develop them, didn't scheme them to succeed, or whatever combination thereof ....... Kubiak made those decisions either directly or by allowing them to be made for him.

thunderkyss
09-03-2011, 01:11 PM
Teams with a roster full of good players, and even more importantly a system that turns players into winners, can afford a couple bad years of drafting and overcome. Maybe they don't win the SB, but they compete for the playoffs. When you inherit what Kubiak inherited, you can't afford to blow two years.


....... Kubiak made those decisions either directly or by allowing them to be made for him.

I understand what you are saying, but you can't blame Kubiak for not doing better than anyone else over the same time period. Unless you can say that half the teams had productive drafts in 2007/2008 you can't really blame Kubiak for working at the mean.....

We're still hearing about 1st round, 2nd round picks from those drafts being straight up cut.

I'm not saying that is the case, that the numbers bear out that those drafts were exceptionally week (I am saying it appears that way). But providing a list of our draft from those two years where virtually none of those players are still on this team, doesn't prove (imo) Rick Smith's (who I do believe is inept for other reasons) or Gary Kubiak's ineptitude.

Show me a contrast where other teams did better (I think Greenbay did better), if that is the point you want to prove.

DocBar
09-03-2011, 01:39 PM
Teams with a roster full of good players, and even more importantly a system that turns players into winners, can afford a couple bad years of drafting and overcome. Maybe they don't win the SB, but they compete for the playoffs. When you inherit what Kubiak inherited, you can't afford to blow two years.

One of the things I've been extremely happy with Kubiak about is the offense (duh). What I mean by that, however, is he came here and focused on what he does well. Contrast that to Capers, who came here, started off with a decent defense, and let the defense turn awful. So I have no problem with Kubiak delegating defense. I have a problem with who he chose to direct/build the defense. So at the end of the day, whether you believe the team drafted bad players, didn't develop them, didn't scheme them to succeed, or whatever combination thereof ....... Kubiak made those decisions either directly or by allowing them to be made for him.When you inherit a team like Kubiak did, you're also forced to start a lot of players who would be groomed for a year or two and earn their spurs on Special Teams. That's how perennial winning organizations do it. We've been expecting 3 round and later picks to step up and have an instant positive impact when it's just not realistic on a team as all around inexperienced as ours was back then. I think we're turning the corner on that, though. In years past, Reed would've been an instant starter, now he might be a backup and actually be able to learn the NFL game in a reserve role. The same could be said of Brandon Harris and Carmichael.