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Marcus
08-28-2011, 02:23 AM
. . . watching the defense is fun for me. It's fun to watch.

I mean, what the hell is this? A consistent pash rush, consistent pressure on the quarterback, constant disruption in the backfield?

Amazing how much better the secondary plays when the front seven does something, right?

Corrosion
08-28-2011, 02:27 AM
. . . watching the defense is fun for me. It's fun to watch.

I mean, what the hell is this? A consistent pash rush, consistent pressure on the quarterback, constant disruption in the backfield?

Amazing how much better the secondary plays when the front seven does something, right?

Ive been trying to figure out if its the players or the coaching / scheme .... Many of the same guy's on the field as last year but the results are dramatically different.

Was last years defensive staff .... That bad?!

Trap_Star
08-28-2011, 02:29 AM
i hear ya...



but i'm not drinking the koolaid yet...im scared to :(

SAMURAITEXAN
08-28-2011, 02:32 AM
Ive been trying to figure out if its the players or the coaching / scheme .... Many of the same guy's on the field as last year but the results are dramatically different.

Was last years defensive staff .... That bad?!

I was exactly thinking about that. I think Yes that bad. And you compare with bad to great DC like Wade, there is a huge difference.

Go Texans!!!

Showtime100
08-28-2011, 02:37 AM
i hear ya...



but i'm not drinking the koolaid yet...im scared to :(

I respect that thought like you wouldn't believe. We have yet to see Week 1. However, not to gush over other posters or anything, but these two (Marcus, Corrosion, EDIT: Samarai too) experienced Texan fans are seeing exactly what I am seeing and wondering where to put the finger. It's something a little too good. On top of that, it's been more than just the Texans history when a defense I have pledged to has shown so much.

Ok, goooood sip of Kood Aid there, but I'm impressed so far, but reverent that Houston 0-0 in 2011.

Corrosion
08-28-2011, 02:39 AM
I was exactly thinking about that. I think Yes that bad. And you compare with bad to great DC like Wade, there is a huge difference.

Go Texans!!!

When you look at the front four , the only change is substituting Watt for 0k0y3 ....


Then again , you get Barwin and MW on the field at the same time with A.Smith .... The Texans pass rush was never the same after Barwin was injured last season , go back and watch the first Dolts game again ....

Marcus
08-28-2011, 02:43 AM
Ive been trying to figure out if its the players or the coaching / scheme .... Many of the same guy's on the field as last year but the results are dramatically different.

Was last years defensive staff .... That bad?!

It's not that simple. Change in the coach, defensive scheme, plus the development of existing, and addtion of new players.

But, what IS simple, is what happens up front, in the trenches. If you don't win the battle there, then everything else, the secondary, the coaches, the team, is going to SUCK!

We are NOW winning the battle up front... and it makes all the difference in the world.

Hookem Horns
08-28-2011, 02:51 AM
It can't be the coaching because "the coaches don't play on the field". However most of the players are the same. Hmmm.

Scooter
08-28-2011, 03:02 AM
granted it's still preseason, and texans fans know by now not to get our hopes up too high, but like marcus said - our defense is fun to watch for the first time. abc had a poll towards who has the biggest impact on defense. wade, watt, or joseph ... and the answer should have been "yes". wade's scheme works, simple as that. he brings a teaching aspect that we havent had since capers (who spent his time failing at teaching the offense), including assistants with the same ability to improve our players like vance. he brought in no less than 3 impact players on defense in the draft, namely the monstrosity that is jj watt. and, we landed a pair of immediate impact players through free agency in joseph and manning. "cautiously optimistic" ... we should be no worse than middle of the pack on defense.

we played horribly against the 9'ers in my opinion and still absolutely destroyed them in every way. sure they're a really bad team, but if we want to be good we're supposed to crush lesser teams even when not at our best.

Wolf6151
08-28-2011, 03:09 AM
i hear ya...



but i'm not drinking the koolaid yet...im scared to :(


Your not alone. The preseason means nothing, and I have drank the Koolaid before and been very disappointed by it. I love the Texans and will always be a fan and pull for them but I'll have to wait until about the 6th game of the regular season for them to show me something real before I start sipping the red bug juice again.

Scooter put it well "cautiously optimistic" fits nicely.

Hottoddie
08-28-2011, 03:14 AM
I think it's a combination of all the above suggestions.

1) The coaching staff is far superior to our previous staff & has been very successful with implementing this system in the past.

2) The addition of Watt & return of Barwin/Demeco.

3) The secondary is actually being coached up. I've been especially impressed with the improved secondary play & this was just the first game for our prized free agent (Joseph).

4) However, in my opinion, the single biggest change is that we are playing with 5 defensive linemen. With the speed, strength & power they possess they are just overwhelming the offensive line.

I'm finding myself longing for the next game before the current one is through. This is looking like a great year to be a Texan fan.

Corrosion
08-28-2011, 03:19 AM
We still havent seen the projected starting lineup for the defense .... Eash of these preseason games , one or more of those players has been out.

Today it was Ryans and then Quin left with an injury early.


Also have to admit that Jackson looks like a totally different player ....

Corrosion
08-28-2011, 03:25 AM
I think it's a combination of all the above suggestions.

1) The coaching staff is far superior to our previous staff & has been very successful with implementing this system in the past.

2) The addition of Watt & return of Barwin/Demeco.

3) The secondary is actually being coached up. I've been especially impressed with the improved secondary play & this was just the first game for our prized free agent (Joseph).

4) However, in my opinion, the single biggest change is that we are playing with 5 defensive linemen. With the speed, strength & power they possess they are just overwhelming the offensive line.

I'm finding myself longing for the next game before the current one is through. This is looking like a great year to be a Texan fan.


Thats what I was getting at in an earlier post , you have for all intents and purposes 4 DE's on the field in MW , Barwin , Watt and A.Smith .... Getting that many guy's with that kind of speed and athleticism on the field at once has to be difficult for opposing OL's to deal with ....


Barwin & MW have looked pretty solid in coverage as well .... Although I think teams will try to exploit both in that aspect during the season - we just havent seen it yet.

TdotTexas2Step
08-28-2011, 03:40 AM
Other than the fact that it's only preseason and we've yet to see this defense show off its good stuff or against entire offensive gameplans, I'd also like to see this defence play without a lead.

I want to see how they react where for once, the team is relying on them to win a game. It'll be a big change for us as Texan fans, but once we see that happen, then we'll truly know the stars are aligning.

Crushing56
08-28-2011, 03:45 AM
It's so strange for me to want the offense to get off the field just so I can watch our defense!

SteveSlaton20
08-28-2011, 04:11 AM
I agree. Although, most of the pressure/sacks are coming from the 2nd team imo, the 1st team looks impressive also.

SAMURAITEXAN
08-28-2011, 05:14 AM
When you look at the front four , the only change is substituting Watt for 0k0y3 ....


Then again , you get Barwin and MW on the field at the same time with A.Smith .... The Texans pass rush was never the same after Barwin was injured last season , go back and watch the first Dolts game again ....

I am aware of our pass rush went down hill after Barwin injured last season.

I think we had enough talent last year up front however, utilizing our talent to coach's scheme wasn't there. When you think about it, we were 4-3 D last year and 3-4 this year. Now, this is a huge change especially the most of our players weren't experienced in 3-4 scheme. Seems to me Wade has custom-made his scheme to fit our players and maximize their talent. Our past DC's(Smith and Bush) were seems to be limited in this area of skills IMO.

It has been only a little over month with Wade's 3-4 scheme and our D is already showing a huge improvement. I mean, how many sacks and QB pressure have we seen already in just 3 preseason games. (I know it is preseason but still) This was unthinkable in the past. So I say, it was our coaching staff in the past that sucked mainly DC.

Anyway, I am hyped and looking forward to our regular season.

Go Texans!!!

ObsiWan
08-28-2011, 07:39 AM
I am aware of our pass rush went down hill after Barwin injured last season.

I think we had enough talent last year up front however, utilizing our talent to coach's scheme wasn't there. When you think about it, we were 4-3 D last year and 3-4 this year. Now, this is a huge change especially the most of our players weren't experienced in 3-4 scheme. Seems to me Wade has custom-made his scheme to fit our players and maximize their talent. Our past DC's(Smith and Bush) were seems to be limited in this area of skills IMO.

It has been only a little over month with Wade's 3-4 scheme and our D is already showing a huge improvement. I mean, how many sacks and QB pressure have we seen already in just 3 preseason games. (I know it is preseason but still) This was unthinkable in the past. So I say, it was our coaching staff in the past that sucked mainly DC.

Anyway, I am hyped and looking forward to our regular season.

Go Texans!!!

That's an important point. Remember that both Richard Smith and Frank Bush's mantra was "We pressure the QB with our front four. We won't do exotic blitzes. We will get to the QB with ONLY our front four." Remember we hardly ever blitzed. And when we did, everyone could see it coming and know, pre-snap, where it was coming from.

Wade's pass rush seems to incorporate more built-in stunts than that vanilla stuff we saw last season. Or maybe the guys are just playing off each other's fury.

Pantherstang84
08-28-2011, 08:47 AM
I think it is a combination of players and Wade.

Wade has brought a proven defensive scheme he can customize to the talent he has available.

The players have taken to it like a fat cop on a donut. It is a beautiful thing to see.

Defense is now fun to watch on this team.

Thorn
08-28-2011, 09:26 AM
Not to be a Debbie Downer here, but it's preseason, defenses and offenses both aren't showing you everything. One things for sure though, the defense, vanilla or not, and no matter if its the 1s, 2s, or 3s, the defense is playing much more agressive and getting turnovers and sacks.

Now that's change you can believe in. LOL

Lucky
08-28-2011, 10:10 AM
Not to be a Debbie Downer here, but it's preseason, defenses and offenses both aren't showing you everything.
I don't think the Niners have anything to show. They're in bad shape on offense.

Still, that was an o-line chock full of high round draft picks. The Jets and Saints are supposed to have some of the best o-lines in the business, as well. And the Texans pass rush beat all of them. That's got to mean something. My eyes tell me that this Texans pass rush is better than ever. That's what counts.

Wolf
08-28-2011, 10:36 AM
The front 7 looks faster With this scheme that Phillips has

ATXtexanfan
08-28-2011, 11:22 AM
additional talent, superior coaching, players wanting to be coached

80tothezone
08-28-2011, 12:34 PM
Gonna go ahead and drink it .... fck it ya only live once right!!!

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

The Pencil Neck
08-28-2011, 12:55 PM
I don't think the Niners have anything to show. They're in bad shape on offense.

Still, that was an o-line chock full of high round draft picks. The Jets and Saints are supposed to have some of the best o-lines in the business, as well. And the Texans pass rush beat all of them. That's got to mean something. My eyes tell me that this Texans pass rush is better than ever. That's what counts.

From what I saw, their first string line was out there pretty much the entire first half. And they could not block Antonio Smith.

We were beating Staley and Iupati like a big bass drum.

drunkcookie
08-28-2011, 12:57 PM
I really don't want to drink it, but there only seems to be a glass or two left and everyone's saying how good it is.... maybe...

Speedy
08-28-2011, 02:24 PM
Not that pre-season stats mean a whole lot but for kicks and giggles the Houston Texans have the #2 defense in the NFL. They are 3rd in points allowed, 4th in rush D, 3rd in pass D, tied for 1st in sacks and 2nd in turnovers.

Again, not that you can put a whole lot into it. I mean they were ranked 9th in total D in the pre-season last year and we know how that turned out.

GP
08-28-2011, 02:47 PM
On the play early in the 1st qtr., when Antonio sacked the QB, Mario Williams had beaten his own man on the edge of the line.

What I noticed is that Mario slapped arm over arm, in a violent swim move, knocking the RT's hands down and freeing Mario up to get to the QB.

That was, for me, a good indication that Mario is taking the coaching and putting it into good use. I remember seeing the training practice pics, where the coaches are wearing long padded things on their arms, making the guys swat at the "arms" as they run by the coach on the way to a QB.

Had Antonio not gotten to the QB, Mario was going to. So I can--as fan--attribute that sack to both those guys because they arrived at practically the same time. Smith was just there one step before Mario.

I still keep noticing teams sending the running play to whichever side of the field Mario is not on. He's out of the picture on most running plays.

And I keep noticing JJ Watt diving from out of nowhere to trip up a RB as he moves past the LOS. He appears out of thin air.

Guys are knocking passes down at the LOS when they can't get tot he QB.

Our base d-line and a LB or two are beating the o-line consistently. There are stunts, re-alignments on the line at pre-snap, and the secondary players are getting their hands on the football.

Overall, the defense is actually a defense. Wade Phillips should never HC again and just be a DC the rest of his career. It's his wheelhouse. It's the sweet spot for him. He's taken what I consider to be the worst defense in our previously 9-year history, and with a draft, free agent acquisition AND cutting dead weight players such as Okoye and, sad to say, Pollard, he's melded that with his 34 style and has made it better.

Lucky
08-28-2011, 02:50 PM
Wade Phillips should never HC again and just be a DC the rest of his career.
I'd say the same about Kubiak and being just an OC, but that would be off topic.

Too bad assistants can't be considered for Coach of the Year. Wade would be my favorite.

gtexan02
08-28-2011, 02:53 PM
I'd say the same about Kubiak and being just an OC, but that would be off topic.

Too bad assistants can't be considered for Coach of the Year. Wade would be my favorite.

Coach of the year? It's preseason.
Or "Our chickens have yet to hatch" so quit cointin'!

Lucky
08-28-2011, 02:59 PM
Coach of the year? It's preseason.
Or "Our chickens have yet to hatch" so quit cointin'!
Preseason is the time for predictions and speculation. That's so you can go back and say "I told ya so!". Or conveniently forget you said anything. :whistle:

Norg
08-28-2011, 03:04 PM
i think it looks good so far im less worried tho i never was about week 1 aganist the colts i think we can def beat them and if not make it a very exciting game

GP
08-28-2011, 03:09 PM
I'd say the same about Kubiak and being just an OC, but that would be off topic.

Too bad assistants can't be considered for Coach of the Year. Wade would be my favorite.

Kubiak has, IMO, better HC skills than Wade.

I think Kubiak has a public persona and a private one. Very Tom Landry'ish.

I still don't think he's a complete HC, though. Otherwise, he would have had a functional defense from day one. To me, a HC has to cover all the bases...not just the one that he has been really good at doing.

Wade Phillips and Dom Capers both had a team (Bills and Panthers, respectively) that probably played a bit over their own heads...and Capers and Phillips look like 34 geniuses in my book.

Remember when Capers was here? Our defense looked functional, it was the best part of the team actually. Sure, vets got old and some got released, but still...our defense was not as bad as anything we saw the past five years under Richard Smith and Frank Bush. That's because Capers still had his fingerprints on the defense, though he was a HC of the team.

Flash forward to the past five years, the offense gets better and the defense regresses exponentially each year. Not a coincidence. One HC, Capers, was a defense-minded guy and had the chance to lend a hand in the creation and implementation of his defense...until Fangio found a way to muddy the waters with his complex ways (according to some research by Texans Chick, IIRC). The other HC, Kubiak, improves the offense and the defense slides...because Kubiak, the archetype to Capers did what he (Kubiak) does best: Make an offense better than it was.

All this is to say that out of the three men in this conversation--Kubiak, Capers, and Phillips--it sure appears that Kubiak by a very small fraction is a better HC than Capers and Phillips. Granted, Phillips and Capers took their respective teams into playoffs and Kubiak didn't, but I think Kubiak has shown more HC resolve and savvy nature in how he handles things that happen. Just my 0.02.

Capers is making hay as a 34 d-coord. He could cement his legacy if he stays there and wins another SB or two somehow. Though that's hard to do.

Wade could do the same thing here.

And I totally agree that coordinators should have a presence in Coach of The Year awards. Does the NFL or media associations have categories for OC and DC of the Year awards? They should, IMO.

thunderkyss
08-28-2011, 03:11 PM
Not saying that I'm not enjoying watching our defense take the field. I am. But it's not the first time.

2009, I loved watching our boys cause havoc in the backfield.

thunderkyss
08-28-2011, 03:13 PM
Still, that was an o-line chock full of high round draft picks. The Jets and Saints are supposed to have some of the best o-lines in the business, as well. And the Texans pass rush beat all of them. That's got to mean something. My eyes tell me that this Texans pass rush is better than ever. That's what counts.

& that's without blitzing. At least not a dedicated emphasis on blitzing.

Lucky
08-28-2011, 03:16 PM
Kubiak has, IMO, better HC skills than Wade.

I'm not going to get into that here. Just that there's zero evidence to support that assertion.

thunderkyss
08-28-2011, 03:17 PM
I'd say the same about Kubiak and being just an OC, but that would be off topic.


I think that's a little harsh. Kubiak did some good things.... not enough of them to be sure. But to take him off the list for future headcoaching gigs?????

That's not right. I'd love to go against a Gary Kubiak coached team. Imagine if he were the future coach of the Colts.... or the Jags.

That's two wins a year.

infantrycak
08-28-2011, 03:21 PM
Remember when Capers was here? Our defense looked functional, it was the best part of the team actually. Sure, vets got old and some got released, but still...our defense was not as bad as anything we saw the past five years under Richard Smith and Frank Bush. That's because Capers still had his fingerprints on the defense, though he was a HC of the team.

Really not much of a difference. Average ranking over tenure:

Capers points - 23.5
Capers yards - 25.25
Kubiak points - 24
Kubiak yards - 22.6

I have had this discussion with several people here. Capers almost abandoned the D while here and I consider it one of his greatest failings (the next greatest being overly meddling with the O). Quite the opposite of Kubiak who has obviously put his stamp on his area of expertise, Capers never did.

The Pencil Neck
08-28-2011, 03:29 PM
I still keep noticing teams sending the running play to whichever side of the field Mario is not on. He's out of the picture on most running plays.

He had one play yesterday where he crashed down hard on the run and lost contain. That was a bad play on his part.

Rey
08-28-2011, 03:33 PM
He had one play yesterday where he crashed down hard on the run and lost contain. That was a bad play on his part.

Yep. I know exactly the play you are talking about.

Like I said, I'm more worried about marios run defense than his pass rush. I think that will be the biggest difference for him.

The Pencil Neck
08-28-2011, 03:34 PM
I still don't think he's a complete HC, though. Otherwise, he would have had a functional defense from day one. To me, a HC has to cover all the bases...not just the one that he has been really good at doing.


So... if a rookie head coach doesn't cover all the bases from day one, then he's never a complete head coach?

Kubiak made a mistake in his choice of DCs. He wanted Bush from the get-go but couldn't get him. So he went with Smith, who actually showed signs of life after a rough start. Then he ditched Smith and went with his original choice for a DC -- giving a guy a chance. And that failed.

I don't know if Kubiak wanted Wade as his DC or if Wade was forced on him. It could be -- I'm not saying it is -- that Kubiak has learned a lesson and taken a step forward and fixed something he was doing wrong. If that's the case, then he should be a step closer to being a coimplete head coach in your eyes.

thunderkyss
08-28-2011, 03:51 PM
I don't know if Kubiak wanted Wade as his DC or if Wade was forced on him. It could be -- I'm not saying it is -- that Kubiak has learned a lesson and taken a step forward and fixed something he was doing wrong. If that's the case, then he should be a step closer to being a coimplete head coach in your eyes.

I think Rick Smith's & Gary Kubiak's circle of friends is so small they probably couldn't get us a good DC. McNair had to call in the cavalry, & I'm glad he did it.

Probably speaks to his mistake of hiring a first time HC & GM from the same organization.

Pantherstang84
08-28-2011, 08:09 PM
Personally, I think before Wade even cleared the city limits of Arlington, McNair was ringing his cell phone.

MEGA SWATT
08-28-2011, 08:33 PM
Agreed. I look forward to enjoying watching the D in the reg. season.

DocBar
08-28-2011, 08:35 PM
So... if a rookie head coach doesn't cover all the bases from day one, then he's never a complete head coach?

Kubiak made a mistake in his choice of DCs. He wanted Bush from the get-go but couldn't get him. So he went with Smith, who actually showed signs of life after a rough start. Then he ditched Smith and went with his original choice for a DC -- giving a guy a chance. And that failed.

I don't know if Kubiak wanted Wade as his DC or if Wade was forced on him. It could be -- I'm not saying it is -- that Kubiak has learned a lesson and taken a step forward and fixed something he was doing wrong. If that's the case, then he should be a step closer to being a coimplete head coach in your eyes.If we were having this discussion 3 or 4 years ago, I would agree with you. Kubiak is entering his 6th year as HC and this is the 1st DC we've had that has actually been a DC before. All in all, I'm OK with keeping Kubiak this year (I like the continuity and stability thing), but it needs to come together this year.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Kubiak had Phillips somewhat pushed on him. I'm also wondering if Phillips is actually happy/relieved to only have to deal with the D and be out of the limelight that comes with working for Jerry Jones and being HC for the Pokes.

Lucky
08-28-2011, 08:53 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Kubiak had Phillips somewhat pushed on him.
Kubiak has to be relieved that he still has his gig. Not many head coaches get to keep their jobs after 5 seasons without a playoff game. Yeah, Phillips is a McNair hire. Kubiak would never have been able to get someone this qualified on his own. Gary has to know that Wade gives him the best chance to win/keep his job. He should be dancin', yeah. :dancer:

Hervoyel
08-28-2011, 08:53 PM
I enjoyed watching our defense back in 2002, at least initially. Once it became apparent that our offense would never, ever put them in a position to succeed though it became kind of hard to watch them. They'd hold the other team in check for as long as they could (sometimes all the way to the third quarter) and then finally fall apart after being left on the field way too long.

This group is different though. You see them hold another team to a three and out and you know the offense has the ability to turn that next possession into points. You see the offense score and you know the defense can now play with more aggression because we're ahead.

This is a very promising start. I want to see real games though. These are nice but our last two preseason opponents aren't likely to tell us much about the Texans. They're only games that can get our players hurt before the games matter. Maybe we'll get lucky and not lose anyone against Minnesota.

DocBar
08-28-2011, 09:21 PM
I enjoyed watching our defense back in 2002, at least initially. Once it became apparent that our offense would never, ever put them in a position to succeed though it became kind of hard to watch them. They'd hold the other team in check for as long as they could (sometimes all the way to the third quarter) and then finally fall apart after being left on the field way too long.

This group is different though. You see them hold another team to a three and out and you know the offense has the ability to turn that next possession into points. You see the offense score and you know the defense can now play with more aggression because we're ahead.

This is a very promising start. I want to see real games though. These are nice but our last two preseason opponents aren't likely to tell us much about the Texans. They're only games that can get our players hurt before the games matter. Maybe we'll get lucky and not lose anyone against Minnesota.Hopefully our 2's only play a series or two, then let the guys about to be out of work get as much on film as they can.

The Pencil Neck
08-28-2011, 10:19 PM
If we were having this discussion 3 or 4 years ago, I would agree with you.

If you're going to give guys a chance to step up, then you have to give them a chance to fail.

DocBar
08-28-2011, 10:33 PM
If you're going to give guys a chance to step up, then you have to give them a chance to fail.I absolutely agree with you, but 5 years is a long damn time in the NFL. I also stated that I was OK with keeping Kubiak. :shots: Here's to hoping we're Super Bowl champions and talking about repeating this time next year and how great a job Kubiak did in 2011.

Perki-Perk
08-29-2011, 12:02 AM
I've been feeling this for a couple weeks now. Just feels like somethings different this year. I'm extremely excited about football this year, Texans football. Besides the usual Texans vs Cowboys preseason matchup, I have never really paid attention in the preseason. This year, I've watched every minute of every game. I can't for certain say whether or not the lockout had anything to do with it, but I do know, the excitement is becoming uncontainable. After watching this team the past 9 seasons, this is the first year I don't feel like a "homer" when I feel like we have a very legitimate shot at making some noise if not going all the way. C'mon, Cinderella, where that damn glass slipper!

Rey
08-29-2011, 12:09 AM
I can't wait to play Pittsburg.

I know they believe we are a bunch of softies but when that defense starts humming on their ass they will wake the hell up.

Baltimore won't take us lightly, neither will Indy.

Gonna be a fun season and I can't wait til the update on madden. :)

The Pencil Neck
08-29-2011, 12:47 AM
I absolutely agree with you, but 5 years is a long damn time in the NFL. I also stated that I was OK with keeping Kubiak. :shots: Here's to hoping we're Super Bowl champions and talking about repeating this time next year and how great a job Kubiak did in 2011.

I wasn't talking about Kubiak. I was talking about his defensive coordinators. His "strategy" was to give a new guy a chance. That didn't work out but he gave the guy (Smith) a chance to clearly fail before making the change. But Kubiak decided to use the same strategy only this time, with the guy he'd originally wanted. So he did. And that guy failed.

Kubes should have been let go on that second DC failure but he got to keep his job. I'm cool with that. AND, it appears he learned from his lesson (or McNair and/or Smith learned the lesson.)

houstonspartan
08-29-2011, 02:42 AM
I wasn't talking about Kubiak. I was talking about his defensive coordinators. His "strategy" was to give a new guy a chance. That didn't work out but he gave the guy (Smith) a chance to clearly fail before making the change. But Kubiak decided to use the same strategy only this time, with the guy he'd originally wanted. So he did. And that guy failed.

Kubes should have been let go on that second DC failure but he got to keep his job. I'm cool with that. AND, it appears he learned from his lesson (or McNair and/or Smith learned the lesson.)

Kubiak didn't learn his lesson. Dude is stubborn to the point of being arrogant. One of the most thick-headed coaches I have ever seen. Wade was clearly a McNair hire.

Perki-Perk
08-29-2011, 09:26 AM
Kubiak didn't learn his lesson. Dude is stubborn to the point of being arrogant. One of the most thick-headed coaches I have ever seen. Wade was clearly a McNair hire.

I don't think it's thick headedness as much as it is loyalty and faithfulness to friends and people that have been around him.

That may not be a great quality as a head coach, but I bet Kubes is a hell of a friend.

thunderkyss
08-29-2011, 10:42 AM
Kubiak didn't learn his lesson. Dude is stubborn to the point of being arrogant. One of the most thick-headed coaches I have ever seen. Wade was clearly a McNair hire.

I think we should put this in perspective.

2009, was the best year for our defense since Kubiak got here, maybe since the inception of the team..... I'll have to check on that. While 2010 was a failure, we should probably look a little deeper before calling Kubiak stubborn & arrogant.

i.e. Frank Bush appeared to be the answer in 2009. My question is why in the heck did he leave Richard Smith in place for 2008?

Then when you look at something objective, like Football Outsiders' prediction that we would have a bad year due to injuries on the defensive side of the ball.... & you consider we had a plethora of injuries on the defensive side of the ball, you've got to figure that the failure was not Frank Bush's ability to coach, but his ability to deal with injuries (which I admit is part of coaching.

There was a definite (imo) difference in the way we played in 2009 & the way we played in 2010. 2009, we were making things happen, playing downhill, dictating to the offense what we would allow them to do. 2010, we were waiting to see what the offense was trying to do & trying to mitigate the worst possible outcome.

I think they were over-compensating for the injuries & inexperience of the secondary.

Bottom line, is Frank Bush a good defensive coordinator? I think the data shows us he is 50/50..... when his players were healthy, he put together a good defense, when his players weren't..... he didn't.

I wouldn't have been happy giving Frank Bush another shot at it in 2011. I like the Wade Phillips idea much better.

But to think Gary was arrogant? & stubborn..... no, I'm not seeing that. Not because of Frank Bush.....

thunderkyss
08-29-2011, 11:12 AM
Okay, I went back & looked at the defensive stats from our previous years. 2009 was our highest ranking in terms of yardage, ranking 13th. However we ranked 17th in points (20.8 ppg). Our highest ranking in points allowed was 2004, when we ranked 15th allowing 21.2 ppg. Just a quick look at that tells me either defenses generally got better between 2009 & 2005 (less points, but ranked lower) or offenses had gotten worse.

Another interesting discovery, in terms of points, 2010 was not our worse year. We allowed 26.7 ppg. In 2005, we allowed 26.9 ppg.

Just in case you want to see all the numbers

Year........rank yards.....ppg...... rank ppg
2010......30.................26.7......
2009......13.................20.8......17th
2008......22.................24.6......27th
2007......24.................24.........22th
2006......24.................22.9......25th
2005......31.................26.9......32nd
2004......23.................21.2......27th
2003......31.................23.8......27th
2002......16.................22.2......20th

DocBar
08-29-2011, 01:59 PM
I wasn't talking about Kubiak. I was talking about his defensive coordinators. His "strategy" was to give a new guy a chance. That didn't work out but he gave the guy (Smith) a chance to clearly fail before making the change. But Kubiak decided to use the same strategy only this time, with the guy he'd originally wanted. So he did. And that guy failed.

Kubes should have been let go on that second DC failure but he got to keep his job. I'm cool with that. AND, it appears he learned from his lesson (or McNair and/or Smith learned the lesson.)
Ahha. That makes sense. What also makes sense is realizing you're struggling as a 1st time hc and getting an accomplished playcaller on the other side of the ball. But that's water under the bridge now.

El Tejano
08-29-2011, 02:29 PM
If you ask me, I think the difference is that for the 1st time in 10 years, the defensive players have bought into the system because more than 1 or 2 guys are going to make plays on this defense.

Perki-Perk
08-29-2011, 02:34 PM
I can honesly say, I think Kubes has done better with game management as far as what I've seen in the preseason. Sure there are some situations when you may think, "hey, should have run on that play.", or vice versa. But I think part of managing a top offense is to not be predictable. As long as we aren't playing from behind almost every game this year, I think we will see a lot more "sensible" play calling as far as us arm chair HC's are concerned. With the seemingly vastly improved defense, I think people are crazy to think 9-7 is the best we can do. I'm listening to 790 right now, and to be frank, I think this guy is pissing me off.

steelbtexan
08-29-2011, 02:45 PM
Kubiak has, IMO, better HC skills than Wade.

I think Kubiak has a public persona and a private one. Very Tom Landry'ish.

I still don't think he's a complete HC, though. Otherwise, he would have had a functional defense from day one. To me, a HC has to cover all the bases...not just the one that he has been really good at doing.

Wade Phillips and Dom Capers both had a team (Bills and Panthers, respectively) that probably played a bit over their own heads...and Capers and Phillips look like 34 geniuses in my book.

Remember when Capers was here? Our defense looked functional, it was the best part of the team actually. Sure, vets got old and some got released, but still...our defense was not as bad as anything we saw the past five years under Richard Smith and Frank Bush. That's because Capers still had his fingerprints on the defense, though he was a HC of the team.

Flash forward to the past five years, the offense gets better and the defense regresses exponentially each year. Not a coincidence. One HC, Capers, was a defense-minded guy and had the chance to lend a hand in the creation and implementation of his defense...until Fangio found a way to muddy the waters with his complex ways (according to some research by Texans Chick, IIRC). The other HC, Kubiak, improves the offense and the defense slides...because Kubiak, the archetype to Capers did what he (Kubiak) does best: Make an offense better than it was.

All this is to say that out of the three men in this conversation--Kubiak, Capers, and Phillips--it sure appears that Kubiak by a very small fraction is a better HC than Capers and Phillips. Granted, Phillips and Capers took their respective teams into playoffs and Kubiak didn't, but I think Kubiak has shown more HC resolve and savvy nature in how he handles things that happen. Just my 0.02.

Capers is making hay as a 34 d-coord. He could cement his legacy if he stays there and wins another SB or two somehow. Though that's hard to do.

Wade could do the same thing here.

And I totally agree that coordinators should have a presence in Coach of The Year awards. Does the NFL or media associations have categories for OC and DC of the Year awards? They should, IMO.

How many playoff games has Gary coached in as a HC?

How many has Capers/Phillips coached in?

Give me Capers/Phillips and it's not even close. With that said I'm more excited about this season than I've have been in a while. The team looks like they are going to shut up about how good they are and prove it on the field.

Funny how Garys job being on the line will make the team grow up.

Last time I felt this way was the 2009 preseason.

steelbtexan
08-29-2011, 03:02 PM
With a top 15 defense and an easy schedule in 2009 the team went 9-7. This was with Schaub having a record setting yr. So I can see how fans think the Texans will go 9-7. I hope they are wrong.

The real question is can you envision Gary ever holding a Lombardi trophy over his head? If the answer is no then Gary isn't the man for the job. I cant see Gary lifting that trophy.

The Pencil Neck
08-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Just in case you want to see all the numbers

Year........rank yards.....ppg...... rank ppg
2010......30.................26.7......
2009......13.................20.8......17th
2008......22.................24.6......27th
2007......24.................24.........22th
2006......24.................22.9......25th
2005......31.................26.9......32nd
2004......23.................21.2......27th
2003......31.................23.8......27th
2002......16.................22.2......20th

To put this in perspective with my point about "clearly failing":

2006 -- That defense started out EPICALLY BAD. The O actually looked OK but we had 3 games to start the season where we were just demolished. But then the defense stiffened and we played better. So, was this just a case of the defense needing to gel?

2007 -- This defense was up and down, iirc. But by the end of the season, there were some bright spots. It looked like Bennett was going to take over the #2 and Adibi looked like he was going to upgrade Morlon Greenwood.

2008 -- This defense started out EPICALLY BAD and we had that whole hurricane thing. We lost our first 4 games. But then Bush and Kubiak started taking some of the play calling duties away from Smith. Our defense tightened up a bit and we ended up the season pretty strong.

2009 -- Bush takes over and our defense is OK. Wasn't great. Could have been better. We finish 9-7, give him another year and it should be great.

2010 -- Bush makes the decision to go kiddie corners and the whole shebang falls apart. We go from OK to EPIC FAIL.

So, to me, it looks like Kubiak gave his DCs a chance to succeed and only got rid of them after they'd proved to be failures.

drunkcookie
08-29-2011, 03:13 PM
Hmmm, I've never really thought about the Wade hire in terms of whether McNair or Kubiak or both had part in the hiring, but I think it's ignorant to completely dismiss Kubiak as playing a big part in that hire...

First off, wasn't Kubiak the ball-boy for the Oilers when Wade was there helping Papa Phillips?

I know Bum likes Kubiak, and Bum is Wade's dad..

Wasn't Wade at Denver while Kubiak was backin' up my all-time favorite QB? I believe Wade was in Denver from '89-'94/'95 in at least some capacity (I know as HC replacing Reeves at the end)... Kubiak was in Denver for at least three of Wade's years there ('89-'91)...

Point being, Kubiak and little Bum have rubbed shoulders too many times to completely dismiss Kubiak in having anything to do with the Wade hire...

Honestly I could give a dead rat's ass who/how, maybe McNair and Jerry had a bet going: whoever loses in Dallas v. Houston 2010 gets Wade Phillips as punishmenta, all that matters to me is that it works...

Doppelganger
08-29-2011, 03:17 PM
Ive been trying to figure out if its the players or the coaching / scheme .... Many of the same guy's on the field as last year but the results are dramatically different.

Was last years defensive staff .... That bad?!

Well, here is the thing. This is what the starting Defense looked like at the end of last year:

DE: Mario, Smith
DT: Okoye, Cody/Mitchell
LB: Cushing, Bentley, Diles
S: Pollard, Wilson
CB: Quinn, Jackson

Included in this group were injuries to Meco and Barwin, who certainly would have played if healthy.

Compare that to the new starting lineup.

DE: Watt, Smith
NT: Mitchell
OLB: Mario, Barwin
ILB: Cush, Meco
CB:Joseph, Jackson
S:Manning, Quinn

3 of the 11 starters did not play for the Texans at all. Barwin played about a quarter and Meco missed much of the season. So, could argue they have 5 of 11 new players on D.

I would also say this group of D coaches is putting players in a position to excel. While it is only preseason, you can see Smith, Cush, and even Jackson playing better than they did last year. Mario was very disruptive in SF, so he may be adapting to his new role.

So, to answer your question, the Texans essentially have 5 starters on D they didn't really have last year and Wade and Co understand how to play D.

players were not on the Defense last year

thunderkyss
08-29-2011, 05:52 PM
So, to me, it looks like Kubiak gave his DCs a chance to succeed and only got rid of them after they'd proved to be failures.

You're right. I think I like your way better. Let's fire them before they have a chance to fail.

Get that Wade Phillips guy out of here, he might fail in 2011.



DocBar
08-29-2011, 06:04 PM
To put this in perspective with my point about "clearly failing":

2006 -- That defense started out EPICALLY BAD. The O actually looked OK but we had 3 games to start the season where we were just demolished. But then the defense stiffened and we played better. So, was this just a case of the defense needing to gel?

2007 -- This defense was up and down, iirc. But by the end of the season, there were some bright spots. It looked like Bennett was going to take over the #2 and Adibi looked like he was going to upgrade Morlon Greenwood.

2008 -- This defense started out EPICALLY BAD and we had that whole hurricane thing. We lost our first 4 games. But then Bush and Kubiak started taking some of the play calling duties away from Smith. Our defense tightened up a bit and we ended up the season pretty strong.

2009 -- Bush takes over and our defense is OK. Wasn't great. Could have been better. We finish 9-7, give him another year and it should be great.

2010 -- Bush makes the decision to go kiddie corners and the whole shebang falls apart. We go from OK to EPIC FAIL.

So, to me, it looks like Kubiak gave his DCs a chance to succeed and only got rid of them after they'd proved to be failures.Are you getting '6 and '09 confused? '09 is when we allowed eleventythreehundred yds rushing in our 1st three games and drastically improved as the season went along. It's also the season we lost 3 or 4 games in heartbreakers. Much like we lost last season.
I agree with you about Bush as DC. We had 3 horrible games to start the season, but finished great. Smith never showed much of anything as DC and quite possibly led us to drafting 6 not very good defensive players. Smith was a catastrophe as DC.

thunderkyss
08-29-2011, 06:13 PM
Are you getting '6 and '09 confused? '09 is when we allowed eleventythreehundred yds rushing in our 1st three games and drastically improved as the season went along.

Kubiak's first three games (http://www.nfl.com/teams/houstontexans/schedule?team=HOU&season=2006&seasonType=REG) were Eagles, Colts, & Washington. We were on pace to have the worst defense in the history of the game. We gave up 400 yards to all three teams, we even allowed Brunnel to set a record for consecutive completions..... Brunnel was way down on the downside of his career mind you.

The bleeding eventually stopped. We didn't shut anyone down or anything, we just got to normal bad instead of historically bad. Unlike 2010.

DocBar
08-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Kubiak's first three games (http://www.nfl.com/teams/houstontexans/schedule?team=HOU&season=2006&seasonType=REG) were Eagles, Colts, & Washington. We were on pace to have the worst defense in the history of the game. We gave up 400 yards to all three teams, we even allowed Brunnel to set a record for consecutive completions..... Brunnel was way down on the downside of his career mind you.

The bleeding eventually stopped. We didn't shut anyone down or anything, we just got to normal bad instead of historically bad. Unlike 2010.Except for the bolded, it sounds a lot like '09. I remember the Redskins game vividly. 26 or so consecutive completions. Maybe I got historically bad defense and historically bad run defense confused.:vincepalm:

The Pencil Neck
08-30-2011, 12:33 PM
Are you getting '6 and '09 confused? '09 is when we allowed eleventythreehundred yds rushing in our 1st three games and drastically improved as the season went along. It's also the season we lost 3 or 4 games in heartbreakers. Much like we lost last season.
I agree with you about Bush as DC. We had 3 horrible games to start the season, but finished great. Smith never showed much of anything as DC and quite possibly led us to drafting 6 not very good defensive players. Smith was a catastrophe as DC.

No. Those two years were remarkably similar with how bad the defense started the season. But in 2006, there was always the argument that we were changing from a 3-4 to a 4-3 and it was a totally new defense. Didn't have that excuse on '09.

NETxTexanFan
08-30-2011, 04:05 PM
I was exactly thinking about that. I think Yes that bad. And you compare with bad to great DC like Wade, there is a huge difference.

Go Texans!!!What is funny is that Wades defenses play better when he is only the DC as opposed to the HC. Of coarse to hear some talk you would think Wade was a poor HC. The problem with Wade and as I see it with Kubiak is that both tend to be too much players coaches and not enough task masters. Neither is bad as a HC. Not bad but not Super Bowl types.

I am hoping with Wade and Kubiak together they won't be too soft or that will come back to haunt our Texans as the season goes along. That seems to be the MO of teams under coaches like Wade and Kubiak.

As far as the preseason goes, so far so good. However we must not let that get us overly excited since teams have looked good to great in the preseason and fell apart in the regular season.

thunderkyss
08-30-2011, 05:06 PM
What is funny is that Wades defenses play better when he is only the DC as opposed to the HC. Of coarse to hear some talk you would think Wade was a poor HC. The problem with Wade and as I see it with Kubiak is that both tend to be too much players coaches and not enough task masters. Neither is bad as a HC. Not bad but not Super Bowl types.

I am hoping with Wade and Kubiak together they won't be too soft or that will come back to haunt our Texans as the season goes along. That seems to be the MO of teams under coaches like Wade and Kubiak.

As far as the preseason goes, so far so good. However we must not let that get us overly excited since teams have looked good to great in the preseason and fell apart in the regular season.


And what brings you to TexansTalk? Have you been a closet fan & the drafting of JJ Watt finally push you over the edge? Were you a Bengal's fan? Following JoJo ? Are you related to Wade Phillips & decided to join his support group?


& Welcome aboard.