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View Full Version : Jacoby Punt Returner/Manning Kick Returner


CloakNNNdagger
08-24-2011, 06:37 PM
That's what Kubiak announced today.

Is Jacoby really going to show any flash as opposed to the past 2 years........and why would you expect that?

Is Manning someone we can AFFORD to gamble on losing in a return?

If Jacoby goes down, there are decent options at Schaub targets. Are there really any decent options that you would trust at safety?

DocBar
08-24-2011, 06:39 PM
sigh....grasping at straws. Leave manning alone to defend.

fiasco west
08-24-2011, 06:39 PM
That's what Kubiak announced today.

Is Jacoby really going to show any flash as opposed to the past 2 years........and why would you expect that?

Is Manning someone we can AFFORD to gamble on losing in a return?

If Jacoby goes down, there are decent options at Schaub targets. Are there really any decent options that you would trust at safety?

With the new rules he's only going to return it about 3 or 4 times any ways.

Wolf6151
08-24-2011, 06:42 PM
With the new rules he's only going to return it about 3 or 4 times any ways.

I agree but I still wouldn't risk Manning to injury on a kick return.

Texans_Chick
08-24-2011, 06:52 PM
This isn't really news. They've been trying guys out but ST coach said this weeks ago.

Problem with returns last year wasn't Jacoby. It was his blocking.

These issues are going to be hard to fix. The special teams is going to have a LOT of inexperienced guys on it. Even if they are a good athlete--Reed--it takes awhile to be very good at it. They were going to count on Barwin as a returning guy who would be great at it last year but he got injured early in the year.

The ST best years were when the ST coach had very good designated special teams guys. Troy Evans was probably the best for Texans, and had the same role on the Super Bowl Saints team. Andre Davis was a good ST guy. Vonta Leach had a ton of experience with the ST coach and now he is gone.

Few guys come into NFL great at ST because they were the top guys at their school and often didn't have to do ST. ST coach has very few guys experienced at ST to work with + knowing what he wants.

Kubiak is spending more of the morning practice sessions on ST because they only have one real practice a day. I think with no OTAs, or minicamps, ST coach has his work cut out for him with a very very inexperienced special teams group, even after cuts are made.

CloakNNNdagger
08-24-2011, 06:54 PM
With the new rules he's only going to return it about 3 or 4 times any ways.



MANNING-A 4-year 20 million dollar investment 9 million guaranteed.

JONES-A 3-year 10.5 million dollar investment 3 million guaranteed


Manning Risk assessment:

Risk of injury when you are covering/tackling ONE player x 30 plays vs. 10 someones trying to tackle you x 4 plays.

CloakNNNdagger
08-24-2011, 06:58 PM
This isn't really news. They've been trying guys out but ST coach said this weeks ago.

Problem with returns last year wasn't Jacoby. It was his blocking.

These issues are going to be hard to fix. The special teams is going to have a LOT of inexperienced guys on it. Even if they are a good athlete--Reed--it takes awhile to be very good at it. They were going to count on Barwin as a returning guy who would be great at it last year but he got injured early in the year.

The ST best years were when the ST coach had very good designated special teams guys. Troy Evans was probably the best for Texans, and had the same role on the Super Bowl Saints team. Andre Davis was a good ST guy. Vonta Leach had a ton of experience with the ST coach and now he is gone.

Few guys come into NFL great at ST because they were the top guys at their school and often didn't have to do ST. ST coach has very few guys experienced at ST to work with + knowing what he wants.

Kubiak is spending more of the morning practice sessions on ST because they only have one real practice a day. I think with no OTAs, or minicamps, ST coach has his work cut out for him with a very very inexperienced special teams group, even after cuts are made.

Can't argue with anything you said. It does beg the question that much more why take a chance with Manning being flanked by an inexperienced blocking personnel?

fiasco west
08-24-2011, 07:06 PM
MANNING-A 4-year 20 million dollar investment 9 million guaranteed.

JONES-A 3-year 10.5 million dollar investment 3 million guaranteed


Manning Risk assessment:

Risk of injury when you are covering/tackling ONE player x 30 plays vs. 10 someones trying to tackle you x 4 plays.

That post was more of a joke about the new rules but still, I can't blame them for wanting Manning to do it if he's the best. If he does get nicked up though they'll just have to go back to the less than average options already......

Too bad Trindon Holliday didn't work out.

dtran04
08-24-2011, 07:16 PM
How often do returners get hurt anyway? Usually its the blockers or wedge busters that get knocked out. If anything, Jacoby is way more likely to get hurt running across the middle than on a punt, IMO of course.

Allstar
08-24-2011, 08:27 PM
Good news, IMO. Does anyone have a statistic for players that get injured due to regular kick returning? I would imagine it would be a very underwhelming number. The guys blocking/tackling are the ones how often get hurt more often.

Lucky
08-24-2011, 08:53 PM
That's what Kubiak announced today.

Is Jacoby really going to show any flash as opposed to the past 2 years........and why would you expect that?


Problem with returns last year wasn't Jacoby. It was his blocking.
Jones had been top 8 in punt return average his first 3 years in the league, prior to 2010. If he gets the blocking, I would expect Jacoby to be top 8, again.

I would still prefer a return specialist. There are still plenty of cuts to be made around the league. I expect a return specialist to pop up somewhere on the waiver wire.

TdotTexas2Step
08-24-2011, 09:33 PM
I expect a return specialist to pop up somewhere on the waiver wire.

So just wait to see who the Raiders cut?

foo82
08-24-2011, 09:39 PM
Nothing big here. We will just see Manning taking the 20, and Jacoby waving kicks.

brakos82
08-24-2011, 09:49 PM
So just wait to see who the Raiders cut?

Hell, just take away JaMarcus's Hot Pocket and put him at NT.

CloakNNNdagger
08-24-2011, 09:51 PM
Jones had been top 8 in punt return average his first 3 years in the league, prior to 2010. If he gets the blocking, I would expect Jacoby to be top 8, again.

I would still prefer a return specialist. There are still plenty of cuts to be made around the league. I expect a return specialist to pop up somewhere on the waiver wire.

The question is would Kubiak entertain a return specialist.

vupac1
08-24-2011, 10:51 PM
Wasn't Keo touted as a returner? IIRC, Deion Sanders raved about his return ability?

GP
08-24-2011, 11:02 PM
Option 1.) Honestly, if it's kicked into the EZ on a kickoff, just down it and take the 20.

Option 2.) If it's kicked short and is between the 10 and goal line, return it.

Option 3.) If it's kicked woefully short (to the 20 or 15), fair catch it.

Is it THAT hard to come up with a workable solution? I say NO, it's not.

Special Teams, other than the field goal kicking, has been a wreck. It looks the same this year. Punt returns, kickoff returns, and when we punt or kickoff, is the time I go grab a drink from the fridge and maybe take a leak while I'm up.

sakebomb
08-25-2011, 06:46 AM
What about putting Slaton back there again. I thought he showed some real promise..............:kubepalm:

Malloy
08-25-2011, 07:33 AM
What about putting Slaton back there again. I thought he showed some real promise..............:kubepalm:

My body can't handle that kind of drinking :(

ATRAIN
08-25-2011, 08:29 AM
I still feel that special teams was a big area that we needed help with. I really wish Holliday was as good in real life as he was in Madden :(.

HOU-TEX
08-25-2011, 09:07 AM
I'm not sure I'd want to risk injury to Manning. If he's worth his contract I'd rather him just play D. Heck, with how our return game has looked, I'd throw Butler back there to return. He could reach the 15-20 just as well as the rest.

phantom17
08-25-2011, 09:24 AM
I really think that putting D. Manning out there returning kicks IS a stupid idea! Our secondary is already "crappy" & then Kubiak wants to take a risk of losing him from a hit!:mariopalm:

infantrycak
08-25-2011, 09:45 AM
When was the last time a Texans kick returner was injured?

Goatcheese
08-25-2011, 09:49 AM
The blocking has been a much bigger issue than the guy with the ball. When there are 5 guys inside the 20 when the kick returner is at the 10 you've had an epic failure in your blocking assignments.

I guess it's worth a look with two known quantities at returner to see just how much is bad vision and how much is bad blocking.

ChampionTexan
08-25-2011, 10:00 AM
When was the last time a Texans kick returner was injured?

If your not distinguishing between punts and kick offs, The first (only?) one that comes to mind was when Jacoby separated his shoulder returning a punt and getting knocked out of bounds by Hunter Smith - that was 2007.

infantrycak
08-25-2011, 10:05 AM
If your not distinguishing between punts and kick offs, The first (only?) one that comes to mind was when Jacoby separated his shoulder returning a punt and getting knocked out of bounds by Hunter Smith - that was 2007.

I was distinguishing, but that is the only returner injury I could think of as well. Seems like an overblown issue to me. The Bears have used him as a returner the last three years.

phantom17
08-25-2011, 10:48 AM
When was the last time a Texans kick returner was injured?

I'm just saying, why take that risk, even if it's 1%? Our secondary SUCKS last year, so why take a chance when others can do it. Let's face it, this secondary can't afford th lose anyone, especially a starter, if it expects to reach the playoffs. Just my 2cents!

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2011, 11:16 AM
An interesting take on the part of a player (8/10/11):

Player's view: Predicting more NFL injuries (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/print?id=42287)
By Mike Sando
ESPN.com

The first exhibition games of the 2011 season could provide a glimpse into how new rules governing kickoffs will affect games.

Nearly five months have passed since former San Francisco 49ers and current Seattle Seahawks fullback Michael Robinson hinted at potential implications.

Robinson promised to elaborate, and I held him to that promise when visiting Seahawks camp recently. He's expecting more injuries during kickoff returns even though the NFL wrote new rules in the name of player safety. Kickoffs are moving from the 30- to the 35-yard line. Coverage teams must shorten their running starts to five yards.

The way Robinson sees things, kickoff teams will want to kick the ball out of the end zone to prevent top return specialists from breaking long returns. But teams will also realize big returns are all about timing up blocks and creating the right spacing. Teams with skilled kickers will consider sending high kickoffs toward the front end-zone pylon, letting the ball hang in the air as the coverage team converges. Returners won't be able to risk letting the ball roll out of bounds because misjudging a live ball would risk disaster.

"Putting the ball that high in the air and getting the guys closer to you, your wedge could potentially be making blocks as you catch the ball," Robinson said. "In the past, guys would have the ball and could get a running start, so they would block before the wedge even makes contact. I personally think because now you can kick a person into a corner, you've got egos on some of these returners, they want to return the ball, you can kick teams into a corner, it turns it into a power play."

Robinson expects linebackers and running backs to replace receivers on some of the associated special-teams units.

"Speed guys want to avoid contact to get to the returner," Robinson said. "Because the field is going to be shorter, it is going to be a power game. You’re going to see bigger guys across the board.

"I think there will be bigger hits and we will see more injuries than we have seen. I understand they say they are concerned about safety. But there is some risk involved in this game anyway. It is what we signed up for. My prediction is more injuries, bigger hits, guys pinned to a sideline."

BigBull17
08-25-2011, 11:23 AM
I would use him in clutch situations, like 4th quarter returns ect...

disaacks3
08-25-2011, 11:26 AM
Can't argue with anything you said. It does beg the question that much more why take a chance with Manning being flanked by an inexperienced blocking personnel? What always bothers me is that the other 31 teams around the league manage to look MUCH better in the return game than the Texans do. Maybe getting a lot more 'inexperienced' guys is the way to go. Our "experienced" guys haven't exactly been tearing it up lately.

When was the last time a Texans kick returner was injured? Not often enough for me to get worked up over it.

Yes you risk two (potentially) star players, but do the benefits outweigh the risk when you take into account field position and how it affects the playcalling?

Texans_Chick
08-25-2011, 11:37 AM
Can't argue with anything you said. It does beg the question that much more why take a chance with Manning being flanked by an inexperienced blocking personnel?

The short answer is that you can't wrap your best players in bubble wrap. You do note that other guys were getting chances in earlier games to see what they could do.

Roster composition is all a question of risk balancing. Yeah, the Texans would love to grow a specialist out of their backup players but that is easier said than done.

With the team composed as it is, it makes sense for Jones and Manning to do returning duties. ST coach just has to work hard to bring the young guys up to speed and maybe with more linebackers available given switch to 3-4, maybe that helps. Need fast, able tacklers.

nero THE zero
08-25-2011, 11:58 AM
I'm just saying, why take that risk, even if it's 1%? Our secondary SUCKS last year, so why take a chance when others can do it. Let's face it, this secondary can't afford th lose anyone, especially a starter, if it expects to reach the playoffs. Just my 2cents!

Because assessing the "1% risk" of injury versus X amount better field position dictates that the risk is worth it.

ST is a vital part of football. We brought in an elite returner. We need to use him.

vupac1
08-25-2011, 12:31 PM
Wasn't Keo touted as a returner? IIRC, Deion Sanders raved about his return ability?

anyone?

drs23
08-25-2011, 12:51 PM
anyone?

Yes he was. As well as Mayock saying "he's one of those guys you just have to find a spot for."

I'm thinking he'd better tighten up pretty quick or that "spot" is going to be on the Practice Squad.

phantom17
08-25-2011, 07:14 PM
Because assessing the "1% risk" of injury versus X amount better field position dictates that the risk is worth it.

ST is a vital part of football. We brought in an elite returner. We need to use him.

I think we got a starting caliber safety & a good one! I just think if we lose him bcuz from a small chance of injury, we're screwed! It's not like we had a top 10 secondary last yr, hell, we were pretty much dead last! He returned kicks for da Bears bcuz they had a good defence, & that is known for it.........ah......we are NOT!:mariopalm:

DocBar
08-25-2011, 07:19 PM
With the new KO rules, how many KO's will there be?

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2011, 07:36 PM
With the new KO rules, how many KO's will there be?

Good question. It's all theoretical. But I came across this ESPN piece that tries to answer for just that question.



Sunday notes: Analyzing new kickoff rule (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/jets/post/_/id/4890/sunday-notes-analyzing-new-kickoff-rule)


The Jets raised more than a few eyebrows by joining 25 other teams in voting for the new kickoff rule -- a rule that moves kickoffs from the 30- to the 35-yard line. With a home-run hitter like Brad Smith, who came out publicly and stated he was disappointed with the new rule, the Jets figured to be anti-change. There will be more touchbacks and fewer opportunities for Smith.

GM Mike Tannenbaum, in an interview with 1050 ESPN radio, explained the reasoning, claiming player safety was the No. 1 factor for joining the majority. He said he's confident Smith still will be a weapon, but at the same time, he noted that Rex Ryan is a defensive coach and they like the idea of pinning the opposition at the 20 after touchbacks. That's what you call trying to spin it both ways.

Let's take a closer look at Smith's tendencies/performance as a kickoff returner last season (15 regular-season games):

Kickoffs to Smith: 58
Kickoffs that reached the end zone: 20
Touchbacks: Eight

Of the 12 kickoffs he ran out of the end zone, here's a breakdown on how deep they traveled:

Minus-5, minus-5, minus-3, minus-2, minus-2, minus-2, minus-2. minus-1, minus-1, minus-1, zero, zero.

Now let's project by adding on five yards for the kickoff: How many of those 12 would become touchbacks? You'd have to say anywhere from three to seven. That should give you an idea of the new rule's impact; we're talking about five fewer returns, give or take, for Smith.

Here's an amazing stat on Smith: He averaged 34.7 yards per return, including an 86-yarder against the Vikings, on kickoffs that went into the end zone. That, at least, provides a silver lining for those who hate the new rule.

Now let's flip the script and examine how the new rule might affect PK Nick Folk, who doesn't have a strong leg. In fact, only nine percent of his kickoffs last season resulted in touchbacks, well below the league average (16 percent).

Total kickoffs: 81
Number in the end zone: 18
Touchbacks: 7 (5 in Denver's thin air)

Now let's add on five yards.

Total kickoffs: 81
Number in the end zone: 36

ObsiWan
08-26-2011, 01:05 AM
Manning WANTS to return kicks (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Joseph-and-Manning-press-conference/4909ddff-3d3c-4a46-a835-0ce8276bc094). He thinks he can be an asset on special teams.

Danieal Manning
(on what he can bring to the team) “For myself, I feel like experience is number one. I played in several big games, including the Super Bowl, we played there. You guys around here know a lot about Peyton Manning. I have my experience with him in the Super Bowl and things like that. Number two would be my versatility; what I can bring as a safety and as far as covering guys, my range that I have and tackling ability. In special teams, being a returner. I feel like I can bring a spark to the team and give us great field position there. Like I said earlier, getting us into the playoffs.”

If he can be a weapon, can we afford not to make use of him? If he ain't skeerd then neither am I.

80tothezone
08-26-2011, 01:56 AM
Personally I don't like gambling on manning keo did ok on returns and really don't think in real games we will be bringing it out of the endzone all that much. they killed the kickoff with the new rules .... bad part is cause we suck in the coverage area people are likely to bing it out on us and with good reason...

ObsiWan
08-26-2011, 02:21 AM
Seriously, I'm way more worried about how we cover punts and kicks than our return game. Our offense has shown it can move the ball the length of the field when it's clicking.

It's better for our defense when our cover teams make the other teams go the length of the field.

CloakNNNdagger
08-26-2011, 01:11 PM
Seriously, I'm way more worried about how we cover punts and kicks than our return game. Our offense has shown it can move the ball the length of the field when it's clicking.

It's better for our defense when our cover teams make the other teams go the length of the field.

It's better if our defense learns to to tackle upon FIRST CONTACT.:bat:

Texans_Chick
08-26-2011, 01:54 PM
Can't really look to the preseason to judge what will happen on returns in the regular season.

Teams are returning a lot of balls that they normally wouldn't just so that they can practice return stuff in real game situations.

disaacks3
08-26-2011, 03:28 PM
Can't really look to the preseason to judge what will happen on returns in the regular season.

Teams are returning a lot of balls that they normally wouldn't just so that they can practice return stuff in real game situations. Certainly a valid argument as we'll obviously be looking to put it out the back of the endzone as often as possible.

Given what I've seen of our kick coverage tackling, we better hope for a LOT of touchbacks.