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76Texan
08-21-2011, 11:43 PM
And so far KJ is ahead.

In the Jets game, KJ gave up a 6yd catch playing off-man and an 11-yd slant.
Allen gave up a 5-yd catch playing off-man and a 12yd slant.

Pretty much a wash.

In the Saints game, KJ made the tackle on a 9yd pass to Moore in the outside flat on the second play, but that was in zone. The Texans' scheme simply didn't have a defender close enough to defend the play better.

Allen made a tackle on a 19yd pass to Moore in Cover 3.
Allen lined up on Moore, but did not squeeze the skinny post route.
I would chalk this one to Manning or split the responsibility between the two.
Those who wants to see their CB to "man up" would have to put this one on Allen though.

On the 56yd TD pass to Morgan, KJ simply didn't follow the receiver.
It looks like he was playing underneath all the way.
Replay shows that Manning bit a head fake by the receiver Morgan (pretending to cut behind KJ to the outside.)
In this coverage call (if there was no miscommunication involved), this one was on Manning.

On the 43-yd pass to Meachem (which could have been a 51-yd TD easily), Allen was learning the back pedal anew and it showed he wasn't very good at it.
From the replay, Yeap, Allen "fell down" comig off his backpedal and allowed the receiver to run free to the outside.
The replay is from the Saints feed; the Texans' feed didn't have it
- Spencer Tilman probably deleted it intentionally to cover up for his boy Allen :spit:

Screen shots will follow when I have some time.

Rey
08-22-2011, 12:06 AM
On the long pass play, I think kj did the wrong thing. But manning cannot let a guy get up over the top of him like that regardless.

I think at this point it's still not decided, but in curious why you left out the two pass break ups by Allen, especially the one on the slant route near the end zone?

And you think kj is only slightly ahead? Of a scrub that spends more time on the floor than he does?

If kj is really good and better than many think, why is there even competition going in there? Maybe they are closer in play level than some thought?

I think that it's not decided at this point, but I will say that Kareem has stepped his game up. He looks a lot more confident and for the most part he's covered well. I'd still like to see him get his hands on some passes, but I'm happy that he hasnt been a huge liability.

Allstar
08-22-2011, 12:15 AM
Basing things off of our 2 preseason games alone, I'd agree that KJ is winning.

welsh texan
08-22-2011, 12:21 AM
76, don't you think its a little harsh to be calling out KJ and labelling him as even-stevens with the first round bust off the street?

Give him a break man :spit:

TdotTexas2Step
08-22-2011, 12:34 AM
Being 5 years younger, I think it's in the franchise's best long term interest to have Kareem win this battle out.

Studying how Joseph goes about his business will also certainly help out.

Besides, if KJ doesn't pick it up, he may be following Allen's career path in the not too distant future.

The Pencil Neck
08-22-2011, 02:04 AM
On the 56yd TD pass to Morgan, KJ simply didn't follow the receiver.
It looks like he was playing underneath all the way.
Replay shows that Manning bit a head fake by the receiver Morgan (pretending to cut behind KJ to the outside.)
In this coverage call (if there was no miscommunication involved), this one was on Manning.

According to Kubiak, there was a mistake. They were playing quarters and someone (like KJ, I think) thought they were playing halves.

In halves, KJ would have had the underneath and Manning would have had the deep zone. In quarters, that route looks like it's right along the seam but KJ should have taken that guy. Manning probably shouldn't have allowed the guy to get deeper than him but I don't think it was strictly his responsibility on that one.

So I blame KJ on that one.

fiasco west
08-22-2011, 02:12 AM
I'm glad someone made a KJ thread because IMO all that matters is he has improved from last season. He didn't look great in the Saints or Jets game, but he didn't look bad either.

Overall he's had two pretty quiet games, which for a CB is a very good thing. It did look like on that one TD in the Saints game there was some miscommunication as the guy went right past him and he let him go, but that's what Preseason is for to get those things worked out.

I think KJ has looked better thus far. Allen was simply burned on that Meachem TD and that just simply can't do.

GP
08-22-2011, 02:13 AM
KJ is good at all the shallow stuff. He's very much like Dunta Robinson, though I think DR was a bit better at deeper stuff than KJ is at this point.

If a WR catches a slant or a curl or some other quick route, KJ is pretty solid in the tackling area of playing CB out there.

But if he has to cover large swaths of field, running WITH a WR and keeping in the better position the whole time...he seems to lose focus and ends up trailing the WR too far. And he doesn't have the twitch speed to make up those lost steps. IMO, of course.

I'd like to see KJ being allowed to jam the WR at the line, but at snap he gets to drop back quickly and one of our LBs also drops back to cover a shallow area where the WR is at...while KJ is preparing for deeper moves the WR might make. Then the LB can continue to pursue the short pass to that WR, or pass him off to KJ if a RB wheels out to that side and the LB has to cover the safety valve RB on that play (if there is one).

You're just going to have to protect the guy with more than pure Safety help from Manning or Quin. Otherwise, IMO, teams will exploit Manning/Quin always helping KJ out. It'll be Pick Your Poison time out there.

To me, Jason Allen should be out there as much as we can stand to see him out there. At least in the 2011 season, and allow KJ to slow down and pick up the 3-4 system WP is teaching here. Just my $0.02 though.

SAMURAITEXAN
08-22-2011, 03:28 AM
As long as KJ side is pretty quiet like last 2 preseason games, I am OK with it. Glad this isn't for #1 CB battle which would have been the case for last season.

Go Texans!!!

leebigeztx
08-22-2011, 03:39 AM
On that bomb to morgan, it appeared to be cover 3 or quarters. In any case, unless there a guy threatening the flat,the defender carriies the wr.

Pantherstang84
08-22-2011, 06:19 AM
On that bomb to morgan, it appeared to be cover 3 or quarters. In any case, unless there a guy threatening the flat,the defender carriies the wr.

In his day after presser, Kubiak said they were actually in halves but somebody thought they were in quarters. I'm much of an X's and O's type person but I think halves means the receiver was the CB's responsibility.

sakebomb
08-22-2011, 06:45 AM
Is the battle for who is playing better or who sucks less?

Playoffs
08-22-2011, 07:27 AM
Basing things off of our 2 preseason games alone, I'd agree that KJ is winning.

I agree, and did Manning look to either be slow afoot, slow flip, or slow decision on that play?

TimeKiller
08-22-2011, 08:22 AM
So in the 3.5 seconds it's been since your last "KJ is a future HOF CB" thread he's gone from future HOF CB to greatest of all times!!!

GREAT news!!

Except.....

2 preseason games does not a bad rookie season undo. To be honest, it looks as if he has stepped his game up. Which is good but that's what is supposed to happen, so it's not that big of a check mark. The coverage units have been satisfactory to me so far and it's been with Allen at the top. KJ doesn't just need to be ahead by a little. KJ needs to go big, bad wolf and blow this door down.

Look, I'll be stoked IF it happens but we don't need another thread tomorrow or next week or until the games start counting about the baby steps Kareem is a year late on.

Ole Miss Texan
08-22-2011, 09:10 AM
From what I've seen, Jackson has improved from last year. And this past game seemed to be more professional looking than the previous preseason game. At this point, that's all I'm really asking for. I want to see steady improvement from Jackson and Mario (among other players).

He's been beat a few times and he's blanketed his receiver some. That penalty Quin got, the contact before the throw, where he tripped up on the TE.... Jackson was on his receiver the entire way down the field and to the endzone. I'm cautiously optimistic that he's progressing.

Allen to me is not a special CB and I think most of us like him because he's a little more consistent than Jackson. He's a solid corner. I'm hoping Joseph really looks like a legit #1 and that it helps Allen and Jackson mature on this team. When Allen got beat I was like 'well I think Jackson is in the lead now'. Then a couple plays later Allen had that GREAT pass breakup on the slant route and was thinking 'well I think Allen just went back in the lead!' LOL

All I want to see is steady improvement. I want to see Jackson continue learning, developing and getting comfortable. If he supplants Allen halfway through the season and becomes an adequate starting #2 corner then that's all we need and I'll be happy.

Porky
08-22-2011, 09:31 AM
Having Allen and Jackson fight it out for #2 CB is like fighting over Rosie O'Donnell or Janet Reno to be your next girlfriend. :thinking:

The Pencil Neck
08-22-2011, 10:38 AM
In his day after presser, Kubiak said they were actually in halves but somebody thought they were in quarters. I'm much of an X's and O's type person but I think halves means the receiver was the CB's responsibility.

I thought it was the other way around. i thought they were in quarters but someone thought they were in halves.

If they were in halves, then KJ played it right and it was Manning's man. KJ had the underneath zone and had to hand off his guy to Manning.

If they were in quarters, then KJ played it wrong and should have stayed on the guy but Manning shouldn't have let the guy get past him, either. KJ would have had the deep right side of the field and Manning would have the deep zone in the right middle of the field.

BigBull17
08-22-2011, 10:54 AM
On the long td, home boy was fast. Even without a MA, it's tough to stop very fast.

El Tejano
08-22-2011, 11:02 AM
I think the battle needs to go between McMannis and Allen. McMannis is the only one I see making a play every week.

badboy
08-22-2011, 12:10 PM
Battle? Maybe a "my daddy can whip your daddy" name calling.

ObsiWan
08-22-2011, 12:15 PM
I think the battle needs to go between McMannis and Allen. McMannis is the only one I see making a play every week.

McMannis is going against 2's and 3's. Allen has been going against 1's while J.Joseph's groin heals. We don't know how well McMannis would do against 1's.

Rey
08-22-2011, 12:16 PM
I thought it was the other way around. i thought they were in quarters but someone thought they were in halves.

If they were in halves, then KJ played it right and it was Manning's man. KJ had the underneath zone and had to hand off his guy to Manning.

If they were in quarters, then KJ played it wrong and should have stayed on the guy but Manning shouldn't have let the guy get past him, either. KJ would have had the deep right side of the field and Manning would have the deep zone in the right middle of the field.

Kubiak said they were supposed to be in quarters.

steelbtexan
08-22-2011, 12:26 PM
Having Allen and Jackson fight it out for #2 CB is like fighting over Rosie O'Donnell or Janet Reno to be your next girlfriend. :thinking:

Good analogy.

There's two hotties there.

LOL

Fox
08-22-2011, 01:20 PM
(on the cornerback situation between Kareem Jackson and Jason Allen) “Jason (Allen) is pushing to be one of our twos, there’s no doubt about that but, like I said all along I think Kareem (Jackson) is holding his own. He’s playing well right now and last night was a step forward for him but it’s a good thing because when you have guys behind you playing well like that it makes you better.”

Sure sounds like Kareem still has the edge in Kubiak's mind.

Personally I like Allen, yea he gives up a big play, but then he comes back and breaks up a touchdown pass on a sharp slant route/pass from Brees. I don't see Kareem making those break ups.

Kareem is a big corner and a solid tackler, he makes a solid contribution in the run game. He does look like he's made a step forward from his abysmal rookie season. That's where the positives stop, IMO. The most concerning thing to me about Kareem is I just don't think he has the deep speed to play against premier receivers. Coach him up all you want, I don't think that will change. If you don't give him help over the top he's going to get burned for big plays week in and week out. Having to scheme to protect one of your top corners isn't an enviable position to be in as a defensive coordinator. He's a liability.

EllisUnit
08-22-2011, 07:31 PM
And so far KJ is ahead.

In the Jets game, KJ gave up a 6yd catch playing off-man and an 11-yd slant.
Allen gave up a 5-yd catch playing off-man and a 12yd slant.

Pretty much a wash.

In the Saints game, KJ made the tackle on a 9yd pass to Moore in the outside flat on the second play, but that was in zone. The Texans' scheme simply didn't have a defender close enough to defend the play better.

Allen made a tackle on a 19yd pass to Moore in Cover 3.
Allen lined up on Moore, but did not squeeze the skinny post route.
I would chalk this one to Manning or split the responsibility between the two.
Those who wants to see their CB to "man up" would have to put this one on Allen though.

On the 56yd TD pass to Morgan, KJ simply didn't follow the receiver.
It looks like he was playing underneath all the way.
Replay shows that Manning bit a head fake by the receiver Morgan (pretending to cut behind KJ to the outside.)
In this coverage call (if there was no miscommunication involved), this one was on Manning.

On the 43-yd pass to Meachem (which could have been a 51-yd TD easily), Allen was learning the back pedal anew and it showed he wasn't very good at it.
From the replay, Yeap, Allen "fell down" comig off his backpedal and allowed the receiver to run free to the outside.
The replay is from the Saints feed; the Texans' feed didn't have it
- Spencer Tilman probably deleted it intentionally to cover up for his boy Allen :spit:

Screen shots will follow when I have some time.

hmm dont see how K. Jackson is ahead, but as i said i am done trashing for now. Still like Allen better though, cause in Regular season games Allen was always Jamming hiw man at the line, i think due to pre season our for whatever reason he is not doing that right now, but he will on week 1, and he will still be better than K. Jac ;)

Mr teX
08-22-2011, 07:41 PM
Kubiak said they were supposed to be in quarters.

Yeah, although i heard mcclain this evening say that he thought manning was the one at fault on that play.

DocBar
08-22-2011, 07:41 PM
Having Allen and Jackson fight it out for #2 CB is like fighting over Rosie O'Donnell or Janet Reno to be your next girlfriend. :thinking:I hate you and spit on your haircut for putting that vision in my head!!!

Perki-Perk
08-22-2011, 07:44 PM
McManis!

76Texan
08-22-2011, 08:50 PM
I thought it was the other way around. i thought they were in quarters but someone thought they were in halves.

If they were in halves, then KJ played it right and it was Manning's man. KJ had the underneath zone and had to hand off his guy to Manning.

If they were in quarters, then KJ played it wrong and should have stayed on the guy but Manning shouldn't have let the guy get past him, either. KJ would have had the deep right side of the field and Manning would have the deep zone in the right middle of the field.

(on the touchdown pass from Chase Daniels to Josh Morgan) “Yeah, that was a busted coverage, bottom line. It should’ve been in halves but one guy was playing in quarters so that’s what happens when you’re not on the same page, really. Great play on their part but just a busted coverage on our part.”

Half = Cover 2
Safety helps over the top, especially anything inside.

Just as I suspected, it was Manning who played it incorrectly!

76Texan
08-22-2011, 08:53 PM
It goes to show a lot of people just decide to see what they want to see.
Reports showed that people at an accident scene routinely gave wrong accounts of what actually transpired.
For that reason, I've never trusted the term "believe your own eyes".

DocBar
08-22-2011, 08:55 PM
(on the touchdown pass from Chase Daniels to Josh Morgan) “Yeah, that was a busted coverage, bottom line. It should’ve been in halves but one guy was playing in quarters so that’s what happens when you’re not on the same page, really. Great play on their part but just a busted coverage on our part.”

Half = Cover 2
Safety helps over the top, especially anything inside.

Just as I suspected, it was Manning who played it incorrectly!You're going from a poster I respect to an utter douche with this KJ thing. You make the guy out to walk on water when he's in the Sahara and other DB's out to be dying of thirst in the middle of Lake Michigan. You've taken the bias too far in my opinion.

EllisUnit
08-22-2011, 08:56 PM
It goes to show a lot of people just decide to see what they want to see.
Reports showed that people at an accident scene routinely gave wrong accounts of what actually transpired.
For that reason, I've never trusted the term "believe your own eyes".

Still like allen better, one bad play by him dont change that, same as 20 bad plays from jackson last season didnt change ur opinion. See we have a lot in common ;)

76Texan
08-22-2011, 09:21 PM
You're going from a poster I respect to an utter douche with this KJ thing. You make the guy out to walk on water when he's in the Sahara and other DB's out to be dying of thirst in the middle of Lake Michigan. You've taken the bias too far in my opinion.

I'm only interested in what actually happened.
I can't control what people think.

No matter what, I would be the first to call myself an ***** to think that Jackson can walk on water.

On top of that, I'm tired of people calling out Jackson as the guy who falls down the most while it was totally untrue.
There's nothing bias about counting the actual number of times a guy fell down and the number of times a guy got beat in one-on-one situation.
It's there, in vivid color; it's not in my imagination.

DocBar
08-22-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm only interested in what actually happened.
I can't control what people think.

No matter what, I would be the first to call myself an ***** to think that Jackson can walk on water.

On top of that, I'm tired of people calling out Jackson as the guy who falls down the most while it was totally untrue.
There's nothing bias about counting the actual number of times a guy fell down and the number of times a guy got beat in one-on-one situation.
It's there, in vivid color; it's not in my imagination.It may not be your imagination, but it is your interpretation on coverages and responsabilities and you've gone from seperating fact from fiction to dictating it with your play diagnosis. If a pass gets caught on on one side of the field, you see it as the CB's fault. On the other side, it's the safety. Almost every time. The lengths you're going to to protect your version of the secondary has reached the breaking point of reality.

Rey
08-22-2011, 09:49 PM
(on the touchdown pass from Chase Daniels to Josh Morgan) “Yeah, that was a busted coverage, bottom line. It should’ve been in halves but one guy was playing in quarters so that’s what happens when you’re not on the same page, really. Great play on their part but just a busted coverage on our part.”

Half = Cover 2
Safety helps over the top, especially anything inside.

Just as I suspected, it was Manning who played it incorrectly!

Kubiak said they were supposed to be in quarters.

I didn't imagine that.

76Texan
08-22-2011, 10:19 PM
Kubiak said they were supposed to be in quarters.

I didn't imagine that.

So you're saying that Kubiak lied to protect Jackson?

(FYI, last year, Kubiak never did protect Jackson with his words. Kube never let Jackson get off with anything. Go back to all the pressers, you will see that.)

Also, you implied that Kubiak lied about Manning not realizing that he was supposed to be in quarters.
You're saying that Kubiak put Manning on the spot just to protect Jackson?

Or did I misinterpret what you were trying to say?

76Texan
08-22-2011, 10:27 PM
It may not be your imagination, but it is your interpretation on coverages and responsabilities and you've gone from seperating fact from fiction to dictating it with your play diagnosis. If a pass gets caught on on one side of the field, you see it as the CB's fault. On the other side, it's the safety. Almost every time. The lengths you're going to to protect your version of the secondary has reached the breaking point of reality.

Actually, it was other posters who tried to interpret different coverages to lay the blame on Jackson.
I never claimed that a certain coverage was absolute (unless the coach said so.)

I merely showed the line-up and opened up discussion about what coverage that could have been, which one is more logical in such situation(s).

In time of not finding a good reason to disagree, it was some other poster(s) who came back with the line "but we don't know what coverage it was" so we can't blame Allen or the safety. (But they can certainly blame Jackson for certain coverage they didn't even know about - that, my friend, is not seperating facts from fiction.)

76Texan
08-22-2011, 10:31 PM
, but in curious why you left out the two pass break ups by Allen, especially the one on the slant route near the end zone?



Did I miss a PBU by Allen?

There was the one near the end zone that I saw.
I was going to give Allen credit for that, but decided it was a moot point.
Nobody is going to give a CB credit after a long pass play which led to a TD just a few yards later.

(Where can I find the other PBU?)

Besides, I didn't bring up the slant to Henderson defended by KJ earlier (the one that Watt deflected).
But as I was rewatching the Saints' feed, maybe I should bring it up so that you (and other Texans fans) know what other broadcasters think. Give me a little time here.

TexansSeminole
08-22-2011, 10:57 PM
Sure sounds like Kareem still has the edge in Kubiak's mind.

Personally I like Allen, yea he gives up a big play, but then he comes back and breaks up a touchdown pass on a sharp slant route/pass from Brees. I don't see Kareem making those break ups.


If he doesn't break up that pass it is a touchdown. Breaking up the pass is the bare minimum to achieve success in that situation. I don't know how much credit can really be given in that situation. Your defense is backed up on the goal line (because of Allen), it is way different than if they had been at midfield. It is much easier and predictable defending a slant route there.

Allen got beat badly on that long pass by Brees. He damn near fell down if he didn't actually fall down if I remember correctly. He has also been real poor on special teams. Real poor.

KJ has been playing well. He's made some nice tackles, taking good angles to the ball. Hasn't been tested deep yet from what I have seen.

KJ is definitely in the lead. I don't know how that can really be questioned at this point.

People talk about how you can't make a determination after 2 preseason games, but guess what? Wade Phillips HAS to. That's his job and he definitely has to have a leaderboard in his head, so that logic is completely flawed.

thunderkyss
08-22-2011, 11:00 PM
IMO if this continues and Allen is only marginally better than Jackson, & I'm honestly not seeing that he is better at all, I'm starting Jackson at CB2.

I can understand that people just like Allen better. I can see people just not liking Kareem, or not trusting Kareem. But I'm just not seeing Allen as clearly better.

To be neck & neck with a second year player doesn't speak well of Jason Allen. Not this late in his career.

Rey
08-22-2011, 11:04 PM
So you're saying that Kubiak lied to protect Jackson?

(FYI, last year, Kubiak never did protect Jackson with his words. Kube never let Jackson get off with anything. Go back to all the pressers, you will see that.)

Also, you implied that Kubiak lied about Manning not realizing that he was supposed to be in quarters.
You're saying that Kubiak put Manning on the spot just to protect Jackson?

Or did I misinterpret what you were trying to say?

Kubiak said it was quarters.

I didn't imply anything. Just stating that what you're saying and what kub said are not compatible.

leebigeztx
08-22-2011, 11:15 PM
(on the touchdown pass from Chase Daniels to Josh Morgan) “Yeah, that was a busted coverage, bottom line. It should’ve been in halves but one guy was playing in quarters so that’s what happens when you’re not on the same page, really. Great play on their part but just a busted coverage on our part.”

Half = Cover 2
Safety helps over the top, especially anything inside.

Just as I suspected, it was Manning who played it incorrectly!

In a cover 2 or halves, the cb is suppose to carry the wr unless the flat is threatened by a player. In cover 2, you do not allow a guy on your side to run a seam unmolested if there isn't a player in the flat. You, the cb carry the player until someone enters the flat. Now I haven't looked at the all 22, but when I first watched it, I was trying to figure out how the wr was screaming down the field unguarded. I'm not saying who fault it was, but I do know the cb is suppose to carry the guy.

Rey
08-22-2011, 11:19 PM
If he doesn't break up that pass it is a touchdown. Breaking up the pass is the bare minimum to achieve success in that situation. I don't know how much credit can really be given in that situation. Your defense is backed up on the goal line (because of Allen), it is way different than if they had been at midfield. It is much easier and predictable defending a slant route there.

Allen got beat badly on that long pass by Brees. He damn near fell down if he didn't actually fall down if I remember correctly. He has also been real poor on special teams. Real poor.

KJ has been playing well. He's made some nice tackles, taking good angles to the ball. Hasn't been tested deep yet from what I have seen.

KJ is definitely in the lead. I don't know how that can really be questioned at this point.

People talk about how you can't make a determination after 2 preseason games, but guess what? Wade Phillips HAS to. That's his job and he definitely has to have a leaderboard in his head, so that logic is completely flawed.

No, what's flawed is thinking wade is making his decision based soley from two pre season games when he's been out at every practice, has watched all the film and knows every defensive play being called. Maybe the fans need to see more, but wade has had way more access to then and has a pretty good idea where they stand.

Also give credit where credit is due. I have a sneaking suspicion that if it were Kareem defending that slant close to the ez you wouldn't be downplaying it like you are. It was a good play and I've seen plenty of cornets get beat on that route.



Did I miss a PBU by Allen?

There was the one near the end zone that I saw.
I was going to give Allen credit for that, but decided it was a moot point.
Nobody is going to give a CB credit after a long pass play which led to a TD just a few yards later.

(Where can I find the other PBU?)

Besides, I didn't bring up the slant to Henderson defended by KJ earlier (the one that Watt deflected).
But as I was rewatching the Saints' feed, maybe I should bring it up so that you (and other Texans fans) know what other broadcasters think. Give me a little time here.

Kareem played well and he was in excellent position on the watt deflection. Allen was in good position on another deep ball and it looked like he was close to making a pick. He had good safety help over the top and the ball was incomplete.

IMO if this continues and Allen is only marginally better than Jackson, & I'm honestly not seeing that he is better at all, I'm starting Jackson at CB2.

I can understand that people just like Allen better. I can see people just not liking Kareem, or not trusting Kareem. But I'm just not seeing Allen as clearly better.

To be neck & neck with a second year player doesn't speak well of Jason Allen. Not this late in his career.

If Kareem is playing well then how does that not speak well of Allen? If Allen is not good how does that speak well of Kareem?

Not following your logic there. If Kareem is playing well why does that not look good if Allen is competing with him?

steelbtexan
08-22-2011, 11:19 PM
I'm only interested in what actually happened.
I can't control what people think.

No matter what, I would be the first to call myself an ***** to think that Jackson can walk on water.

On top of that, I'm tired of people calling out Jackson as the guy who falls down the most while it was totally untrue.
There's nothing bias about counting the actual number of times a guy fell down and the number of times a guy got beat in one-on-one situation.
It's there, in vivid color; it's not in my imagination.

76, While the S sucked last yr. KJ was just as bad, No amount of film clips are going to change what I saw last yr, Hopefully KJ has made the natural progression and has improved like most rookie CB's do from yr 1 to yr 2.

But just like Rick and Gary, KJ has alot to prove this yr. Basically as a franchise this is the yr that the Texns as a franchise have to **** or get off the pot. And KJ is a big part of that.

I really appreciate all of the film study you do. It has helped me realize how bad the S were in addition to KJ.

Hopefully you will do alot more of this around draft time.

Thanks

Jay

76Texan
08-22-2011, 11:20 PM
OK, so here's the slant to Henderson defended by KJ earlier (the one that Watt deflected).

As I was rewatching the Saints' feed, I dfinitely should bring this up so that you - Rey (and other Texans fans) know what other broadcasters think.

The time was 14:56 to go in the 2nd qtr.

This is what Joel Myers (the Texans announcer) said:
"There was contact from Jackson... running up Henderson's back."

This is what the Saints analyst (Solomon Wilcots) said:
"There's the slant we were talking about... Give a lot of credit to this defense... Kareem Jackson jumps right inside. Has a great understanding of where they want to go in the passing game and he takes away the inside, but the ball was tipped.."

Not only it was within 5 yards of the LOS, but Jackson also looked back at the QB (and the ball) and jumped ahead of the receiver. Both players had equal right to the ball (if it arrived).
If anything, it was Henderson who was running up Kareem's back shoulder.

76Texan
08-22-2011, 11:23 PM
Kubiak said it was quarters.

I didn't imply anything. Just stating that what you're saying and what kub said are not compatible.

Did you miss the quote?

Kubiak (on the touchdown pass from Chase Daniels to Josh Morgan) “Yeah, that was a busted coverage, bottom line. It should’ve been in halves but one guy was playing in quarters so that’s what happens when you’re not on the same page, really. Great play on their part but just a busted coverage on our part.”

TexansSeminole
08-22-2011, 11:27 PM
No, what's flawed is thinking wade is making his decision based soley from two pre season games when he's been out at every practice, has watched all the film and knows every defensive play being called. Maybe the fans need to see more, but wade has had way more access to then and has a pretty good idea where they stand.

Also give credit where credit is due. I have a sneaking suspicion that if it were Kareem defending that slant close to the ez you wouldn't be downplaying it like you are. It was a good play and I've seen plenty of cornets get beat on that route.

Well clearly he is going to make his decisions based on practice as well. That goes without saying. My point is that it may still be early but decisions are still being made this early.

And in regards to me downplaying the play by Allen, its the same for all corners in this league, if you aren't going to make that play more times than not your not a starting CB in this league. Until he does it consistently, I am not going to give him much credit for it. Same goes for Jackson.

So far I've seen Allen get beat on a deep ball and take some really poor angles on special teams. He has also made some necessary plays on defense. Had he not made those plays he would literally be getting beat every time. That's not worthy of praise IMO.

Jackson has been solid all around, haven't seen him make any gaffs yet. He's easily in the lead at this point.

Rey
08-22-2011, 11:36 PM
OK, so here's the slant to Henderson defended by KJ earlier (the one that Watt deflected).

As I was rewatching the Saints' feed, I dfinitely should bring this up so that you - Rey (and other Texans fans) know what other broadcasters think.

The time was 14:56 to go in the 2nd qtr.

This is what Joel Myers (the Texans announcer) said:
"There was contact from Jackson... running up Henderson's back."

This is what the Saints analyst (Solomon Wilcots) said:
"There's the slant we were talking about... Give a lot of credit to this defense... Kareem Jackson jumps right inside. Has a great understanding of where they want to go in the passing game and he takes away the inside, but the ball was tipped.."

Not only it was within 5 yards of the LOS, but Jackson also looked back at the QB (and the ball) and jumped ahead of the receiver. Both players had equal right to the ball (if it arrived).
If anything, it was Henderson who was running up Kareem's back shoulder.

Contrary to what you may believe my only dog in this fight is the team. I call it like I see it.

In other words I don't need a saints broadcaster to validate when a player makes a good play. I've said several times that Kareem played well and that he looks a lot more comfortable and confident since last year.

Rey
08-22-2011, 11:41 PM
Did you miss the quote?

Kubiak (on the touchdown pass from Chase Daniels to Josh Morgan) “Yeah, that was a busted coverage, bottom line. It should’ve been in halves but one guy was playing in quarters so that’s what happens when you’re not on the same page, really. Great play on their part but just a busted coverage on our part.”

I don't know where that quote came from, but I heard kubiak say that we were supposed to be in quarters. Maybe he mid spoke at that time.

But really it doesn't matter because I've said quite a few times that even if Kareem was supposed to be back manning cannot let a guy run past him and get over the top of him.

I'm consistent in my criticism. Just like when you say some if kareem's deep butt rapes were due to bad safety play. I disagreed then that Kareem should get a pass and before any quotes from kub came out I disagreed that manning should get a pass. He messed up on that play regardless of what Kareem should or shouldn't have done.

76Texan
08-22-2011, 11:45 PM
It has helped me realize how bad the S were in addition to KJ.


You haven't seen one tenth of the poor safety play last year.
I have yet to show the bad plays from Allen either (when he played for us.)
I have yet to show the times he fell down or gave up big plays (by himself where he can't count on safety help; ie. outside release by the receiver, when he played for us.)

Allen was poor in tackling and can hardly get off the receiver's block to support the run (there were some big fat running plays too).

And the famous 3rd and 19 where most people only remember Bentley.
I wanted to slap Allen on the head for that play!
He simply stood there and watched the TE stretch out and reach the ball for the first down.

If Ellisunit counted 20 bad plays by Jackson (in 16 games), I can count at least 30 by Allen (less than 13 games.)

SteveSlaton20
08-22-2011, 11:45 PM
kj is gonna be that guy they throw it to on the first play of the game.

again.

Rey
08-22-2011, 11:46 PM
Well clearly he is going to make his decisions based on practice as well. That goes without saying. My point is that it may still be early but decisions are still being made this early.

And in regards to me downplaying the play by Allen, its the same for all corners in this league, if you aren't going to make that play more times than not your not a starting CB in this league. Until he does it consistently, I am not going to give him much credit for it. Same goes for Jackson.

So far I've seen Allen get beat on a deep ball and take some really poor angles on special teams. He has also made some necessary plays on defense. Had he not made those plays he would literally be getting beat every time. That's not worthy of praise IMO.

Jackson has been solid all around, haven't seen him make any gaffs yet. He's easily in the lead at this point.

I think that Jackson is slightly a head.
And the only thing that is keeping Allen close, IMO, is that he gets his hands on more balls.

And as far as him "literally getting beat Everytime" I don't get what you're saying.

All corners give up catches and if they didn't step up and make plays they'd be getting beat everytime.

All I'm saying is be fair when looking at players. Kareem isn't all good and Allen isn't all bad. And vice versa.

When we first got Kareem I thought he had shutdown potential to be honest. But no amount of screenshots is going to convince me he didn't suck last year because he did.

This pre season he looks like a new man though.

I need to see him tested deep before I say he is the clear cut starter, but I do agree that he is ahead. . . Slightly.

Rey
08-23-2011, 12:00 AM
You haven't seen one tenth of the poor safety play last year.
I have yet to show the bad plays from Allen either (when he played for us.)
I have yet to show the times he fell down or gave up big plays (by himself where he can't count on safety help; ie. outside release by the receiver, when he played for us.)

Allen was poor in tackling and can hardly get off the receiver's block to support the run (there were some big fat running plays too).

And the famous 3rd and 19 where most people only remember Bentley.
I wanted to slap Allen on the head for that play!
He simply stood there and watched the TE stretch out and reach the ball for the first down.

If Ellisunit counted 20 bad plays by Jackson (in 16 games), I can count at least 30 by Allen (less than 13 games.)

Last year when Allen was inserted the secondary stabilized a bit. And an outside release doesn't mean that a safety can't help. Not even sure what you're talking about there and that makes 0 sense to me.

I just disagree with many of the conclusions you come to dissecting secondary play. Not only does it not make sense, but Allen would have never taken plays away from kj at towards the end if the season if he was sucking and kj was playing well.

The defensive coaching was awful, but they weren't putting guys in based in who looked better in tight pants.

76Texan
08-23-2011, 12:09 AM
Contrary to what you may believe my only dog in this fight is the team. I call it like I see it.

In other words I don't need a saints broadcaster to validate when a player makes a good play. I've said several times that Kareem played well and that he looks a lot more comfortable and confident since last year.

I always believe you're open-minded.

Some of the points we cannot agree on were the plays we can't decide who's the most responsible for them.

Perhaps you were expecting a little too much from Jackson.

I was much more guarded.
Even though I stated my good opinion about him in my thread analyzing his plays from college right after the draft, the conclusion was "Jackson was a near shutdown corner in hi Junior year, but none of the receivers he faced can be considered tier one at the NFL level."
"He's a solid all around CB that can tackle well, provide good run support, and giving help on receiver that was not his primary responsibility."

....
Nice chatting, but I've gotto run!

TexansSeminole
08-23-2011, 12:10 AM
And as far as him "literally getting beat Everytime" I don't get what you're saying.

All corners give up catches and if they didn't step up and make plays they'd be getting beat everytime.


He got beat twice or I guess I should say didn't win twice. Once he was flat out beat. Another time, he was just in poor position to pursue after the catch.

Two other times, he made the absolute necessary play. One was the slant on the goal-line and the other was the deep pass over the deep middle that should never have been thrown. Allen and the safety were both in good position, the pass was extremely dangerous and foolish. He did a good job of not allowing that play to be successful for the Saints.

That means that out of the small sample size, he is 50% successful so far. The two successful plays were absolutely necessary to even be considered for PT.

leebigeztx
08-23-2011, 08:57 AM
Not trying to be petty, but solomon is not a saints broadcaster, he's a national guy. Wilcots has 0 to do with either team. Now if you heard bobby hebert, that's another story.

thunderkyss
08-23-2011, 10:43 AM
Last year when Allen was inserted the secondary stabilized a bit. And an outside release doesn't mean that a safety can't help. Not even sure what you're talking about there and that makes 0 sense to me.

I just disagree with many of the conclusions you come to dissecting secondary play. Not only does it not make sense, but Allen would have never taken plays away from kj at towards the end if the season if he was sucking and kj was playing well.

The defensive coaching was awful, but they weren't putting guys in based in who looked better in tight pants.

If Allen was that good, and KJac was that bad, Allen would have been the starter & KJ would have been bumped down to nickel. Kbiak & Kareem said it was a consistency issue, not an ability issue.

EllisUnit
08-23-2011, 03:06 PM
If Allen was that good, and KJac was that bad, Allen would have been the starter & KJ would have been bumped down to nickel. Kbiak & Kareem said it was a consistency issue, not an ability issue.

KJac is kubiaks and Smiths first round pick the "most NFL ready CB in the draft" :boogie:, i should say some pride is coming into play with some of these decisions they are making. We all know how loyal all the guys in our front office and on the staff are.

Mr teX
08-23-2011, 03:29 PM
Honestly K-jac looks like he has improved from the little we've been able to see of him, but we haven't really seen him tested yet. With the 49ers & Vikings on deck, it's unlikely we'll know what we have in him until at least the 1st game....regardless of whether Manning plays or not.

fiasco west
08-23-2011, 04:05 PM
KJac is kubiaks and Smiths first round pick the "most NFL ready CB in the draft" :boogie:, i should say some pride is coming into play with some of these decisions they are making. We all know how loyal all the guys in our front office and on the staff are.

Don't think so, pretty sure their jobs are on the line this season.

KJ has looked better to me, I wouldn't be surprised if he was the starter.

gary
08-23-2011, 04:39 PM
Kareem has shown improvement so far I hope he does become the number two CB because of where he was drafted and he is still very young. I don't like to see any draft pick become a bust so I hope things go well for him.

EllisUnit
08-23-2011, 05:38 PM
Don't think so, pretty sure their jobs are on the line this season.

KJ has looked better to me, I wouldn't be surprised if he was the starter.

oh i know he will be the starter, well at the start of the season anyways. after a few bad games maybe a different story, but they will give their #1 the benefit of the doubt.

thunderkyss
08-23-2011, 09:00 PM
KJac is kubiaks and Smiths first round pick the "most NFL ready CB in the draft" :boogie:, i should say some pride is coming into play with some of these decisions they are making. We all know how loyal all the guys in our front office and on the staff are.

The point is if we got Nnamdi Asumagha in October of last year, I guarantee you KJac wouldn't have been in the starting lineup.

We can keep going down the list. Terrence Newman, KJac loses his job. Asante Samuel.. KJ is the nickel. Antonio Cromartie..... Kjac is on the bench.

Carlos Rogers... Phillip Buchannon.. Jason Allen... they split time wiht KJac to keep him fresh.

Rey
08-23-2011, 09:24 PM
The point is if we got Nnamdi Asumagha in October of last year, I guarantee you KJac wouldn't have been in the starting lineup.

We can keep going down the list. Terrence Newman, KJac loses his job. Asante Samuel.. KJ is the nickel. Antonio Cromartie..... Kjac is on the bench.

Carlos Rogers... Phillip Buchannon.. Jason Allen... they split time wiht KJac to keep him fresh.

Lol.

Rationalize it how you want.

Corners that are playing well aren't splitting time with Phillip buchanon.

Just funny that you are looking past the obvious and throwing out the keep him fresh angle.

Now that is rich.

thunderkyss
08-23-2011, 09:58 PM
Lol.

Rationalize it how you want.

Corners that are playing well aren't splitting time with Phillip buchanon.

Just funny that you are looking past the obvious and throwing out the keep him fresh angle.

Now that is rich.

What am I rationalizing?

That quote has more to do with Jason Allen. People are wanting to believe that he is clearly better than Kareem & that is not & never has been the case.

Corners that are playing well do not split time with Kareem Jackson... like Allen did in 2010. They aren't behind him on the depth chart... as he has been all training camp.

The real rationalization is the fans saying that Kareem is starting because he was Kubiak's #1 pick. Well there is another Kubiak #1 pick playing in Chicago right now.

Rey
08-23-2011, 10:08 PM
What am I rationalizing?

That quote has more to do with Jason Allen.

huh?

So Kareem playing bad has nothing to do with him being replaced?

Of course not. They wanted to keep him fresh.

As far as the rest of your post, how do you not realize you are contradicting yourself. It's like you are trying to call kjax good at the same time as calling him bad.

Allen being behind him or splitting time with him shouldn't be a slight against him if kjax is a good player.

You guys are the ones tearing down Allen to make kjax look good. All the while the scrub Allen has been his stiffest comp and the one who took some of his snaps last year.

Can't have it both ways. I've said it many times in many different ways that they had been closer in level of play than some are willing to say.

Re-read my post and understand what I'm saying if it still doesn't resonate.

The Jason Allen apologist threads have not appeared as frequently as the kjax ones so the conversation tends to revolve around kj and that is understandable.

I think Allen was not as bad as kj and even if he got beat just as much I think the fact that he made plays and got his hands on more balls put him slightly ahead.

I even said a couple of pages back that the only thing keeping Allen close in the pre season comp is that he's gotten his hands on some balls.

Other than that, Kareem has looked better all around in the snaps I've seen.

But I will argue against it anytime it's brought up if someone tries to convince me that Jackson was a good player last year because he was not.

EllisUnit
08-24-2011, 12:12 AM
huh?

So Kareem playing bad has nothing to do with him being replaced?

Of course not. They wanted to keep him fresh.

As far as the rest of your post, how do you not realize you are contradicting yourself. It's like you are trying to call kjax good at the same time as calling him bad.

Allen being behind him or splitting time with him shouldn't be a slight against him if kjax is a good player.

You guys are the ones tearing down Allen to make kjax look good. All the while the scrub Allen has been his stiffest comp and the one who took some of his snaps last year.

Can't have it both ways. I've said it many times in many different ways that they had been closer in level of play than some are willing to say.

Re-read my post and understand what I'm saying if it still doesn't resonate.

The Jason Allen apologist threads have not appeared as frequently as the kjax ones so the conversation tends to revolve around kj and that is understandable.

I think Allen was not as bad as kj and even if he got beat just as much I think the fact that he made plays and got his hands on more balls put him slightly ahead.

I even said a couple of pages back that the only thing keeping Allen close in the pre season comp is that he's gotten his hands on some balls.

Other than that, Kareem has looked better all around in the snaps I've seen.

But I will argue against it anytime it's brought up if someone tries to convince me that Jackson was a good player last year because he was not.

Agree, i am not going off of camp, our potential, just what i saw last season. That was a CB named Allen who pulled in 3 legit ints while running stride for stride with his man, instead of intercepting really bad under thrown passes like K. Jac Did. Allen does have some bad plays i will admit, but i see way more good than bad, i cant say that about Jackson well as far as last season goes.

thunderkyss
08-24-2011, 09:50 AM
huh?

As far as the rest of your post, how do you not realize you are contradicting yourself. It's like you are trying to call kjax good at the same time as calling him bad.


No contradiction here. I never said KJac played well. I've said he played well for a rookie CB on this team. I've said he played as well as we should have expected him to.

& I've said that Jason Allen is not a starting CB in this league, imho.

Jackson is going to get better, or at least he should. Allen is who he is. A flash in the pan like Pollard. You appreciate some of his skills, when you see him play for a short time. But he doesn't have the versatility to be a part of your system for 16 games (& hopefully more).

Watching Jackson play, I think he has the skill & the talent to live up to his first round selection. The same, I think, is true of Allen. But for Allen to still be playing at the level that Jackson is (& that's truly where I put him) it's a big knock against him for me. I also feel really good about what I've seen from McCain so far. I feel better about McCain's long term prospects with this team than I do about Allen's.

Allen being behind him or splitting time with him shouldn't be a slight against him if kjax is a good player.

You guys are the ones tearing down Allen to make kjax look good. All the while the scrub Allen has been his stiffest comp and the one who took some of his snaps last year.

Can't have it both ways. I've said it many times in many different ways that they had been closer in level of play than some are willing to say.

Maybe we're saying the same thing in different ways.

My goal is not to tear down Allen. Just pointing out that he was a 5 year vet playing at the same level as a rookie. Maybe that's good for the rookie. Maybe that's bad for the vet. But when Jackson played the way he did last year..... I think it is safe to say it's more bad for the vet than good for the rook.

I want a true #2 CB for this team. If they don't have faith in Jackson, they should have gone out & got someone else..... I don't know who. But if Jason Allen is going to be our #2 we're in trouble unless Harris kicks it in gear.

Re-read my post and understand what I'm saying if it still doesn't resonate.

The Jason Allen apologist threads have not appeared as frequently as the kjax ones so the conversation tends to revolve around kj and that is understandable.

I think Allen was not as bad as kj and even if he got beat just as much I think the fact that he made plays and got his hands on more balls put him slightly ahead.

I even said a couple of pages back that the only thing keeping Allen close in the pre season comp is that he's gotten his hands on some balls.

Other than that, Kareem has looked better all around in the snaps I've seen.

I don't believe Allen understands the game. All the talent in the world & no understanding makes you worthless in my book. Remember the Jets game? Remember the bomb that got them in the Red Zone with a chance to win? The CB made a critical error in that game. An error a 5 year vet shouldn't have made, should have known better. & it wasn't the only time.



But I will argue against it anytime it's brought up if someone tries to convince me that Jackson was a good player last year because he was not.

Then you've got no argument against me.

My argument is that they were both bad. One was a rookie. The other a 5 year vet.

EllisUnit
08-24-2011, 11:02 AM
Jason Allens Int


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81c9938c - running stride for stride with wr. good play.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b62ed1/Allen-intercepts-Rodgers - stride for stride again picking off Aaron Rodgers.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81d36883/Tebow-throws-pick-in-red-zone - Picks of tebow again running with WR.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa5e7e - Picks off Brett Frave, ok i know its brett but Allen Had really good coverage

thunderkyss
08-24-2011, 11:22 AM
Jason Allens Int


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81c9938c - running stride for stride with wr. good play.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b62ed1/Allen-intercepts-Rodgers - stride for stride again picking off Aaron Rodgers.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81d36883/Tebow-throws-pick-in-red-zone - Picks of tebow again running with WR.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa5e7e - Picks off Brett Frave, ok i know its brett but Allen Had really good coverage

would you like a highlight reel of Bernard Pollard? He had 4 Ints in 2009.

TexansSeminole
08-24-2011, 11:26 AM
would you like a highlight reel of Bernard Pollard? He had 4 Ints in 2009.

Would rep if I could but im on my phone.

thunderkyss
08-24-2011, 11:29 AM
Let's try it this way. Here are the highlights from the Jets game (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112101/2010/REG11/texans@jets#tab:watch). Try to point out Kareem Jackson. Then see if you can point out Jason Allen.

I know this was his first game as a Texan, but consider he has been in the league for a lot longer.

El Tejano
08-24-2011, 11:30 AM
Again, I think it's the coaching we had last year because Pollard is doing pretty good with The Ravens right now.

Big Lou
08-24-2011, 11:32 AM
Reading this title reminds me of the Primetime commericals for Directv where he says "IT's ON!!!!!"

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Screen-shot-2011-08-16-at-2.29.31-AM-300x171.png

playa465
08-24-2011, 12:39 PM
Let's try it this way. Here are the highlights from the Jets game (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112101/2010/REG11/texans@jets#tab:watch). Try to point out Kareem Jackson. Then see if you can point out Jason Allen.

I know this was his first game as a Texan, but consider he has been in the league for a lot longer.

Thanks for making me :crazy: again with the realities of last season

foo82
08-24-2011, 12:44 PM
Jason Allens Int


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81c9938c - running stride for stride with wr. good play.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b62ed1/Allen-intercepts-Rodgers - stride for stride again picking off Aaron Rodgers.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81d36883/Tebow-throws-pick-in-red-zone - Picks of tebow again running with WR.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa5e7e - Picks off Brett Frave, ok i know its brett but Allen Had really good coverage

Allen was pretty bad last season. Sure he may run stride for stride on a few occasions, but he pulls some of the most boneheaded stuff. He was the single reason WHY we lost the JETS game. No amount of interceptions can cover up a mistake that big. No timeouts, and he let his man beat him outside! Hell, all he had to do that play was keep him inbounds and tackle him before the endzone. It wouldn't have even mattered if the receiver had caught the ball.

Yet we rarely ever see anyone mention that. All we remember is soundbites of Kareem Jackson falling down in first half of the season. I actually thought he played fairly decently in the second half of the season. Remember, all that criticism came early on kareem, and it just stuck. Everyone needs a scapegoat, and he was it since game 1.

House of Pain
08-24-2011, 03:56 PM
Having Allen and Jackson fight it out for #2 CB is like fighting over Rosie O'Donnell or Janet Reno to be your next girlfriend. :thinking:

Repped

House of Pain
08-24-2011, 04:41 PM
It goes to show a lot of people just decide to see what they want to see.
Reports showed that people at an accident scene routinely gave wrong accounts of what actually transpired.
For that reason, I've never trusted the term "believe your own eyes".

There is a saying that I have picked up in my life: Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see.

EllisUnit
08-24-2011, 05:00 PM
Allen was pretty bad last season. Sure he may run stride for stride on a few occasions, but he pulls some of the most boneheaded stuff. He was the single reason WHY we lost the JETS game. No amount of interceptions can cover up a mistake that big. No timeouts, and he let his man beat him outside! Hell, all he had to do that play was keep him inbounds and tackle him before the endzone. It wouldn't have even mattered if the receiver had caught the ball.

Yet we rarely ever see anyone mention that. All we remember is soundbites of Kareem Jackson falling down in first half of the season. I actually thought he played fairly decently in the second half of the season. Remember, all that criticism came early on kareem, and it just stuck. Everyone needs a scapegoat, and he was it since game 1.

seriously ???? i dont think he single handedly lost us the jets game, Quin gave up the TD, and what about all the other bone headed defensive plays. oh and the safety hit him out of bounds. still quin lost us that game :)

TexansSeminole
08-24-2011, 06:02 PM
seriously ???? i dont think he single handedly lost us the jets game, Quin gave up the TD, and what about all the other bone headed defensive plays. oh and the safety hit him out of bounds. still quin lost us that game :)

I think we need to ask you the same question your asking? Seriously? Quin lost us that game? Seriously?

Nobody loses a game on their own but they can be the #1 reason. That mistake by Allen was the #1 reason we lost that game, hands down.

EllisUnit
08-24-2011, 06:16 PM
I think we need to ask you the same question your asking? Seriously? Quin lost us that game? Seriously?

Nobody loses a game on their own but they can be the #1 reason. That mistake by Allen was the #1 reason we lost that game, hands down.

no it was leading up to it. I can put a bullet in the chamber of a gun but if someone else pulls the triger, thats on them.

Rey
08-24-2011, 06:43 PM
I think we need to ask you the same question your asking? Seriously? Quin lost us that game? Seriously?

Nobody loses a game on their own but they can be the #1 reason. That mistake by Allen was the #1 reason we lost that game, hands down.

See this is why it's hard for me to take these arguments seriously.

After that game I vividly remember Kubiak stating that Allen did was he was supposed to do on that play.

He said that Allen was playing a trail technique and that the safety (wilson) was supposed to be over the top. I think I even remember Jason Allen saying something to Wilson after the play was over.

It's funny that all these breakdowns of Kareem's play lead to other people failing him and not doing their job, but just about every Jason Allen bad play was because he sucked...


Actually, I may disagree with Tkyss on some of the finer points, but overall I think I am in line with what he feels which is that Allen and Jackson weren't all that far apart in how they played. (I think Allen was a little better, Tkyss might disagree; but he does have a good point (that I never denied) that Jackson has more upside).

And actually, as far as that play went, last year I said that even if Allen is playing a trail technique he can still make a play. But that that was a damn good throw and catch by Edwards and Sanchize.

TexansSeminole
08-24-2011, 07:44 PM
See this is why it's hard for me to take these arguments seriously.

After that game I vividly remember Kubiak stating that Allen did was he was supposed to do on that play.

He said that Allen was playing a trail technique and that the safety (wilson) was supposed to be over the top. I think I even remember Jason Allen saying something to Wilson after the play was over.

Are you being serious right now? Its the end of the game, there is barely any time left. The Jets have no timeouts and need a touchdown. The only thing the corner needs to do is not let the receiver get outside or behind him. That's ALL he needs to do. Allen let the receiver do both. He could have let the receiver go inside and play deep and we would have won.

Anybody who does not understand that seriously does not understand basic football principles. Its VERY BASIC.

Rey
08-24-2011, 07:57 PM
Are you being serious right now? Its the end of the game, there is barely any time left. The Jets have no timeouts and need a touchdown. The only thing the corner needs to do is not let the receiver get outside or behind him. That's ALL he needs to do. Allen let the receiver do both. He could have let the receiver go inside and play deep and we would have won.

Anybody who does not understand that seriously does not understand basic football principles. Its VERY BASIC.


Dude, you are wrong.

I told you what technique the coach said he was playing.

And you sound ignorant talking about basic football principles. They wanted Allen to play a trail technique because the receiver could run a deep curl or the qb could have thrown a back shoulder pass or intentionally left it short so the receiver could come back and get it. That is the proper technique there because you are not worried about over the middle stuff and basically want to sandwich the wr on the sideline.

The safety was supposed to protect against the over the top stuff there, but he was late coming over as usual. Allen WAS PLAYING A TRAIL TECHNIQUE and was responsible for any of the comeback stuff. Exactly what part of that don't you understand?

You have 0 idea what you are talking about and it sounds like you get your "basic football knowledge" from playing madden.

Please try again.

thunderkyss
08-24-2011, 08:12 PM
The safety was supposed to protect against the over the top stuff there, but he was late coming over as usual. Allen WAS PLAYING A TRAIL TECHNIQUE and was responsible for any of the comeback stuff. Exactly what part of that don't you understand?


Let's say Gary speaks in half truths. Mainly to protect his players.

Allen was supposed to trail... like he did. He was supposed to get safety help. Which was there. But the safety was late (which he was).

But, what if Allen was supposed to redirect the WR inside, then trail...

You've got the safety CB double team that should stop the pass from being completed. But.. but just in case something happens & the receiver catches the ball... he doesn't get to the endzone. Time runs out..... game over.

Ω

Rey
08-24-2011, 08:19 PM
Let's say Gary speaks in half truths. Mainly to protect his players.

Allen was supposed to trail... like he did. He was supposed to get safety help. Which was there. But the safety was late (which he was).

But, what if Allen was supposed to redirect the WR inside, then trail...

You've got the safety CB double team that should stop the pass from being completed. But.. but just in case something happens & the receiver catches the ball... he doesn't get to the endzone. Time runs out..... game over.

Ω

So we should just make up our own alternatives if for nothing else to make Allen look bad any chance we get?

That sounds good in theory, but regardless of whether you force the wr inside or not if you are trailing you have no influence on what he'll do. Force him to release inside and then as soon as you get in a trail position he's heading to the sideline.

How about we just look at what happened which was Allen was in good position for any comeback throws (Aka the trail position) and the safety wasn't in the position he needed to be in.

Also, you don't force receivers inside and play the trail. You only play the trail on deep routes when you want to protect the sidelines.

Kimmy
08-24-2011, 08:29 PM
it will be interesting ...

EllisUnit
08-24-2011, 08:30 PM
Dude, you are wrong.

I told you what technique the coach said he was playing.

And you sound ignorant talking about basic football principles. They wanted Allen to play a trail technique because the receiver could run a deep curl or the qb could have thrown a back shoulder pass or intentionally left it short so the receiver could come back and get it. That is the proper technique there because you are not worried about over the middle stuff and basically want to sandwich the wr on the sideline.

The safety was supposed to protect against the over the top stuff there, but he was late coming over as usual. Allen WAS PLAYING A TRAIL TECHNIQUE and was responsible for any of the comeback stuff. Exactly what part of that don't you understand?

You have 0 idea what you are talking about and it sounds like you get your "basic football knowledge" from playing madden.

Please try again.

Kubiak must of been lying then, :splits:

dalemurphy
08-24-2011, 08:42 PM
There is hardly reason to argue about who was worse in the secondary last season. Clearly, a rookie thrown into that situation with horrific coaching and a nightmare situation at safety is going to fall apart. That is largely irrelevant now. With good coaching and with defensive coaches that understand personnel and scheme, the issue is how will each of these players best contribute to dramatic improvement on the defense. Who was better last year is probably not even on their list of concerns. Instead, who is the better nickel? How will Jackson play with the new scheme and safeties? What can Allen do and how will his skills make this team better?

to quote Billy Crystal in City Slickers: It's a do-over.

TexansSeminole
08-24-2011, 08:52 PM
Dude, you are wrong.

I told you what technique the coach said he was playing.

And you sound ignorant talking about basic football principles. They wanted Allen to play a trail technique because the receiver could run a deep curl or the qb could have thrown a back shoulder pass or intentionally left it short so the receiver could come back and get it. That is the proper technique there because you are not worried about over the middle stuff and basically want to sandwich the wr on the sideline.

The safety was supposed to protect against the over the top stuff there, but he was late coming over as usual. Allen WAS PLAYING A TRAIL TECHNIQUE and was responsible for any of the comeback stuff. Exactly what part of that don't you understand?

You have 0 idea what you are talking about and it sounds like you get your "basic football knowledge" from playing madden.

Please try again.

That's fine if you think I am ignorant. Its very basic. Look at the situation, it isn't rocket science. Don't let the receiver get outside or behind you in that situation. They teach you that in middle school football. Allen just got beat fair and square.

Wilson didn't get beat he just isn't good enough to cover that much ground around the sideline. He didn't allow anyone to get behind him, as he shouldn't have.

Honestly, this stuff is extremely basic. It shouldn't take this much conversation for someone to realize what went wrong on that play.

Very basic defensive football.

Sent from my DROID PRO using Tapatalk

Rey
08-24-2011, 09:56 PM
That's fine if you think I am ignorant.

I dont think or mind if you are arrogant. Not here to judge folks on a personal basis.

I think you are wrong about this. Nothing more, nothing less.

TexansSeminole
08-24-2011, 09:58 PM
There is hardly reason to argue about who was worse in the secondary last season. Clearly, a rookie thrown into that situation with horrific coaching and a nightmare situation at safety is going to fall apart. That is largely irrelevant now. With good coaching and with defensive coaches that understand personnel and scheme, the issue is how will each of these players best contribute to dramatic improvement on the defense. Who was better last year is probably not even on their list of concerns. Instead, who is the better nickel? How will Jackson play with the new scheme and safeties? What can Allen do and how will his skills make this team better?

to quote Billy Crystal in City Slickers: It's a do-over.

I 100% agree with that Dale.

I have a hard time letting conversation like this go undiscussed though, even if if it's past the point where it means anything.

76Texan
08-24-2011, 11:16 PM
So we should just make up our own alternatives if for nothing else to make Allen look bad any chance we get?

That sounds good in theory, but regardless of whether you force the wr inside or not if you are trailing you have no influence on what he'll do. Force him to release inside and then as soon as you get in a trail position he's heading to the sideline.

How about we just look at what happened which was Allen was in good position for any comeback throws (Aka the trail position) and the safety wasn't in the position he needed to be in.

Also, you don't force receivers inside and play the trail. You only play the trail on deep routes when you want to protect the sidelines.

Wilson was in a tough place.
The slot receiver also had a step ahead of Quin.

Even in the trail postiion, Allen should man up and make the play (sounds familiar?)

Isn't he supposed to know that there are two receivers on this side and the safety may not be able to provide help along the side line quickly enough?

Allen needs to play closer to the vest on the corner route; and if it was a back-shoulder fade or a come-backer, he would just have to suck it up and do the best he can.

Kubiak did say that they both needed to play better (Wilson and Allen).

76Texan
08-24-2011, 11:29 PM
seriously ???? i dont think he single handedly lost us the jets game, Quin gave up the TD, and what about all the other bone headed defensive plays. oh and the safety hit him out of bounds. still quin lost us that game :)

On the last play of the game, Allen was also beaten by a slant.
Sanchez can go either way to get his TD!

Earlier, Allen had allowed a 27-yd pass to Edwards to give the Jets the ball at the Texans 10. They scored a TD a couple plays later.

(Allen had at least 3 more bad plays in the game, and got away with a couple more - including one that could have gone 77 yards for a TD; he also committed a PI and got away with one.)

So, yes, Allen and McCain both played very big parts in the lost!

76Texan
08-24-2011, 11:53 PM
huh?

So Kareem playing bad has nothing to do with him being replaced?

Of course not. They wanted to keep him fresh.

Allen being behind him or splitting time with him shouldn't be a slight against him if kjax is a good player.

You guys are the ones tearing down Allen to make kjax look good. All the while the scrub Allen has been his stiffest comp and the one who took some of his snaps last year.

Can't have it both ways. I've said it many times in many different ways that they had been closer in level of play than some are willing to say.

I think Allen was not as bad as kj and even if he got beat just as much I think the fact that he made plays and got his hands on more balls put him slightly ahead.

But I will argue against it anytime it's brought up if someone tries to convince me that Jackson was a good player last year because he was not.

I confirmed that if you watched all 16 games that Jackson played and the 12 games + one half + one quarter that Allen played, you can see the difference.

Allen had more bad plays in coverage (in fewer passes thrown his way.)

His INTS were his good plays, but I'd say four, perhaps five, or maybe even all six were also poor plays by the offense (QB and/or receiver) and some help due to to pressure.

Allen was not good in run support; that led to the opponents moving closer to scores.

You forgot that KJ also had a FF and also had a hand in another fumble (he laid the first hit to open up the receiver so the safety can put in the second hit that cause the fumble) that gave the ball back to the offense.

Jackson also had several third down stops (I don't count them but I'm one hundred percent positive that there were many more than Allen's. There were times when Allen were in position to stop the third down conversion but failed due to a mistackle.)
A third down stop gives the ball back to the offense.
A third down stop in the red zone takes away 4 points (FG instead of TD.)

76Texan
08-25-2011, 12:11 AM
Allen was pretty bad last season. Sure he may run stride for stride on a few occasions, but he pulls some of the most boneheaded stuff. He was the single reason WHY we lost the JETS game. No amount of interceptions can cover up a mistake that big. No timeouts, and he let his man beat him outside! Hell, all he had to do that play was keep him inbounds and tackle him before the endzone. It wouldn't have even mattered if the receiver had caught the ball.

Yet we rarely ever see anyone mention that. All we remember is soundbites of Kareem Jackson falling down in first half of the season. I actually thought he played fairly decently in the second half of the season. Remember, all that criticism came early on kareem, and it just stuck. Everyone needs a scapegoat, and he was it since game 1.

And the funny thing is that Allen fell down more often than Jackson did!

BTW, in PS week 1, Allen fell down in ST play.

In PS week 2, Allen fell down twice in coverage.
On the long pass to Meachem (2nd qtr) and on another play in which he was covering Colston (first play of the second series in the first qtr where Brees passed to the RB Thomas for 15 but could have easily gone this way to Colston as well.)

House of Pain
08-25-2011, 01:31 AM
You guys truly love torturing yourselves, as much as each other.

I'M A TEXAN

thunderkyss
08-25-2011, 07:22 AM
There is hardly reason to argue about who was worse in the secondary last season. Clearly, a rookie thrown into that situation with horrific coaching and a nightmare situation at safety is going to fall apart.

I think his best attribute today is that he held the company line, didn't throw anyone under the bus, didn't throw a fit on the field hollerin & scream'n at whoever... like our old psuedo-pro-bowl CB would do.


Then again after Henderson pnk'd him Saturday, I wonder if he has it in him to do any of that anyway.


Ω

TexansSeminole
08-25-2011, 08:06 AM
I dont think or mind if you are arrogant. Not here to judge folks on a personal basis.

I think you are wrong about this. Nothing more, nothing less.

I used to think my father was arrogant until I realized he was just tired of explaining obvious things to me. That's when I learned to figure out simple things on my own. :)

76Texan
08-25-2011, 10:09 AM
I think his best attribute today is that he held the company line, didn't throw anyone under the bus, didn't throw a fit on the field hollerin & scream'n at whoever... like our old psuedo-pro-bowl CB would do.


Then again after Henderson pnk'd him Saturday, I wonder if he has it in him to do any of that anyway.


Ω

This is why I said Jackson was very much like AJ.
They both play very clean and they don't say much.
(Until AJ changed last year, LOL!)

But they both play very physical within the rules.
It's something Jackson will need to learn, just like AJ.
You can't be too "clean"!

EllisUnit
08-25-2011, 10:56 AM
76 we both know Jackson contributed to us losing more than a few games. I have not heard you say one bad thing our shown one bad play on Jackson, when we all know there were many. You show more excuses of why Jackson got beat than you show of actual bad plays by Allen.

I mean if you're gonna breakdown games go from all angles, you do a great job, but you put WAY to much speculation into ur break downs. The safety/the coaches, the LBs, so not Jacksons fault. Now if its allen, it is never the safety,LBs our anybodys fault, always just bad plays on his part ACCORDING TO YOU. Jackson had way more bad plays than good plays last year so were any of them actually his fault ? Our was he perfect and everyone else flat out sucked.

thunderkyss
08-25-2011, 11:13 AM
76 we both know Jackson contributed to us losing more than a few games. I have not heard you say one bad thing our shown one bad play on Jackson, when we all know there were many. You show more excuses of why Jackson got beat than you show of actual bad plays by Allen.

I mean if you're gonna breakdown games go from all angles, you do a great job, but you put WAY to much speculation into ur break downs. The safety/the coaches, the LBs, so not Jacksons fault. Now if its allen, it is never the safety,LBs our anybodys fault, always just bad plays on his part ACCORDING TO YOU. Jackson had way more bad plays than good plays last year so were any of them actually his fault ? Our was he perfect and everyone else flat out sucked.

The only reason he 76 does what he does is because the negative Jackson talk is way out of hand. If the rhetoric actually matched his play, maybe 76 can get on to breaking down the play of the NT, or the #2/3 receiver.

But everybody is so butt hurt that a rookie played like a rookie he spends all his time defending the man.....

& it's not like 76 is saying that KJac is great, only that he was everything they told us he was (with the exception of most NFL ready). We're looking at the worst pass defense in the league & blaming the one person we expected to struggle.

Doesn't make sense.

Rey
08-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Wilson was in a tough place.
The slot receiver also had a step ahead of Quin.

Even in the trail postiion, Allen should man up and make the play (sounds familiar?)

Isn't he supposed to know that there are two receivers on this side and the safety may not be able to provide help along the side line quickly enough?

Allen needs to play closer to the vest on the corner route; and if it was a back-shoulder fade or a come-backer, he would just have to suck it up and do the best he can.

Kubiak did say that they both needed to play better (Wilson and Allen).

Wasn't going to respond, but what the hell.

A couple points:

Safety has no excuse to "not get over soon enough" as any pass caught in the middle of the field does not hurt them as much as a receiver catching a ball on the sideline and stepping out of bounds. First priority in that situation is to protect the sideline. Now that is basic football.

Also, if you read my first response on the play I said Allen should have still made a play.

You are wrong about him playing close ti the vest as well because he was playing the coverage that was called. If he gets beat on a deep comeback he's getting chewed out for not doing what he was asked to do.

Funny how you take an obvious situation where the safety failed Allen And still claimed he got beat, but any situation where there is the slightest possibility that a safety failed Kareem you turn into captain save a ho.

EllisUnit
08-25-2011, 12:53 PM
Wasn't going to respond, but what the hell.

A couple points:

Safety has no excuse to "not get over soon enough" as any pass caught in the middle of the field does not hurt them as much as a receiver catching a ball on the sideline and stepping out of bounds. First priority in that situation is to protect the sideline. Now that is basic football.

Also, if you read my first response on the play I said Allen should have still made a play.

You are wrong about him playing close ti the vest as well because he was playing the coverage that was called. If he gets beat on a deep comeback he's getting chewed out for not doing what he was asked to do.

Funny how you take an obvious situation where the safety failed Allen And still claimed he got beat, but any situation where there is the slightest possibility that a safety failed Kareem you turn into captain save a ho.

:goodpost::goodpost:

Rey
08-25-2011, 12:56 PM
The only reason he 76 does what he does is because the negative Jackson talk is way out of hand..

Ok. But that doesn't mean you should be not objective as well.

76 is on the completely opposite end of the spectrum and that isn't playa either.

Do you honestly believe that all he finds are negative screen shots for Allen and others that always excuse the play of Kareem?

Let's be serious here. Kareem was a first round pick that was brought in to be a top corner and was sold to us as being the most NFL ready. Is it really a shock that he takes a lot of flack, while a street FA that was considered a bust at his old stop is not being judged with as much scrutiny?

Anything we get from Allen is a plus. Anything we don't get from kareem is a negative.

If we brought in Robert gallery to see how he fit the zbs, do you think he would receive the same fan scrutiny as Duane brown?

If either of those players stiffest competition was a guy who was considered a bust why wouldn't that player (our guy) receive scrutiny. Kareem should not be anywhere allens level and this season he needs to (and I actually think he has a good chance doing so) separate himself from the 1st round pick cut from his former team.

Allen shouldn't be anything but depth. But sadly, due to the state of our db's last year he was needed.

Section516
08-25-2011, 01:26 PM
I have a solution that end this argument..

Fight to the death between the two, nothing but a plastic fork and spoon..

HOU-TEX
08-25-2011, 01:29 PM
:spit: "Captain save a ho"

76Texan
08-25-2011, 02:31 PM
Wasn't going to respond, but what the hell.

A couple points:

Safety has no excuse to "not get over soon enough" as any pass caught in the middle of the field does not hurt them as much as a receiver catching a ball on the sideline and stepping out of bounds. First priority in that situation is to protect the sideline. Now that is basic football.

Also, if you read my first response on the play I said Allen should have still made a play.

You are wrong about him playing close ti the vest as well because he was playing the coverage that was called. If he gets beat on a deep comeback he's getting chewed out for not doing what he was asked to do.



This is what you get for not going back and rewatch the game.

A completion in the middle would have been a sure TD!!! :mariopalm:

On the side line, the CB should keep staying with the receiver and not attempt to play the shorter route first in this situation.

Watch closely as Allen had the opportunity but he bit the action of the receiver.

A comebacker here would only net about 15-20 yards.

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/

76Texan
08-25-2011, 02:37 PM
Funny how you take an obvious situation where the safety failed Allen And still claimed he got beat, but any situation where there is the slightest possibility that a safety failed Kareem you turn into captain save a ho.

I would expect that you do not use such term again if we're going to discuss football.

When was I incorrect when citing a certain situation where Jackson can expect to get safety help?
Show me one!

It is you who is wrong in this instance.

With two receivers running verticals (and Allen can see this as he turned to the inside), Allen has to play it as if he cannont depend on safety help.

76Texan
08-25-2011, 02:49 PM
76 we both know Jackson contributed to us losing more than a few games. I have not heard you say one bad thing our shown one bad play on Jackson, when we all know there were many. You show more excuses of why Jackson got beat than you show of actual bad plays by Allen.

I mean if you're gonna breakdown games go from all angles, you do a great job, but you put WAY to much speculation into ur break downs. The safety/the coaches, the LBs, so not Jacksons fault. Now if its allen, it is never the safety,LBs our anybodys fault, always just bad plays on his part ACCORDING TO YOU. Jackson had way more bad plays than good plays last year so were any of them actually his fault ? Our was he perfect and everyone else flat out sucked.

1. Show me where Jackson contributed significantly in us losing more than a few games.

2. I've already mntioned a couple of bad plays like the 28yd TD pass to Arijotutu and the incompletion to Garcon in the end zone.
You can also read about each play if you had read my game analysis.
I did the Colts game week 1, the Jets game, and the Titans game week 12.
I wanted to pick up where I left off (starting with the Eagles game) but I simply don't have anough time.
If you want me to, I will try my hardest (but right now, I'm still collecting plays from the two PS games.)

3. Tell me where I put speculation (by that you probably mean "heavily biased" in my breakdown of a certain play.

4. I showed a whole lot more of Allen's bad plays (about 14) as compared to tough situation by Jackson (about 5).

5. No, Jackson did not have more bad plays than good plays last year.
It was Allen who had many more bad plays than good plays.

powda
08-25-2011, 03:04 PM
76 I appreciate ur post. Dont get caught up in the bickering. He says tomato u say tomato...

move on to your next observation. I enjoy the film study.

Rey
08-25-2011, 03:43 PM
I would expect that you do not use such term again if we're going to discuss football.

It was a joke and not meant to offend you. If I did so I apologize.


When was I incorrect when citing a certain situation where Jackson can expect to get safety help?
Show me one!

It is you who is wrong in this instance.

With two receivers running verticals (and Allen can see this as he turned to the inside), Allen has to play it as if he cannont depend on safety help.

I've shown you several.

And just like usual I disagree with you here as well.

End of the game when a team has no timeouts, you protect the sideline. If they have him playing a trail technique he doesn't really have the option of doing whatever they want him to do which is what you are suggesting.


If they have him playing a trail technique that in itself implies that a safety will be giving direct help over the top, otherwise you are giving away anything over the top.

If you really stop and take an unbiased look at it I think you'd see that Allen played well within the scheme of that play.

If the safety is paying more attention to routes in the middle of the field he's not doing what he's supposed to because the one thing you can't afford there is for the guy to catch the ball on the sideline and get out of bounds.

If Allen was a terrible player last year, they would have cut him. It makes 0 sense to keep a guy that sucks that bad if he isn't one of your better corners. It makes 0 sense that he'd be giving Kareem competition for the job if Kareem is that much better than him. None of it makes sense in my opinion and it is nothing but spin.....IMO

Rey
08-25-2011, 03:54 PM
1. Show me where Jackson contributed significantly in us losing more than a few games.

2. I've already mntioned a couple of bad plays like the 28yd TD pass to Arijotutu and the incompletion to Garcon in the end zone.
You can also read about each play if you had read my game analysis.
I did the Colts game week 1, the Jets game, and the Titans game week 12.
I wanted to pick up where I left off (starting with the Eagles game) but I simply don't have anough time.
If you want me to, I will try my hardest (but right now, I'm still collecting plays from the two PS games.)

3. Tell me where I put speculation (by that you probably mean "heavily biased" in my breakdown of a certain play.

4. I showed a whole lot more of Allen's bad plays (about 14) as compared to tough situation by Jackson (about 5).

5. No, Jackson did not have more bad plays than good plays last year.
It was Allen who had many more bad plays than good plays.

:ok:

Well, like we've done a few times in the past...Agree to disagree...

:handshake:

EllisUnit
08-25-2011, 04:31 PM
1. Show me where Jackson contributed significantly in us losing more than a few

2. I've already mntioned a couple of bad plays like the 28yd TD pass to Arijotutu and the incompletion to Garcon in the end zone.
You can also read about each play if you had read my game analysis.
I did the Colts game week 1, the Jets game, and the Titans game week 12.
I wanted to pick up where I left off (starting with the Eagles game) but I simply don't have anough time.
If you want me to, I will try my hardest (but right now, I'm still collecting plays from the two PS games.)

3. Tell me where I put speculation (by that you probably mean "heavily biased" in my breakdown of a certain play.

4. I showed a whole lot more of Allen's bad plays (about 14) as compared to tough situation by Jackson (about 5).

5. No, Jackson did not have more bad plays than good plays last year.
It was Allen who had many more bad plays than good plays.

Thats what i'm talking about, Jackson has tough situations and Allen has bad plays. I guess our safties were like oh hey its jackson lets not do as good as we do for allen our quin. That is a little far fetched that he was put in ALL these tough spots and none of the other CBs were.

EllisUnit
08-25-2011, 04:54 PM
And 76 you arent one of the worst CBs in the league statistically if you have more good plays than bad. We all know NONE of it was his fault of course ;), them damn safties :roast:.

76Texan
08-25-2011, 04:58 PM
:ok:

Well, like we've done a few times in the past...Agree to disagree...

:handshake:

It should be easy to show if there were that many that contribute a major part in many losses, why can't EU or you show me?



Or at least tell me, for example, you may claim that Arijotutu's 2 TDs was a major reason that we lost to the Chargers.
To this, I've gone to the extent to show several CBs (including Pro-Bowlers like Aso, Rashean Mathis, and Newman) who played the coverage exactly the way Jackson played it.
If you insist to charge the long TD to these CBs then at least you need to explain to me why they did what they did.

You can't claim that one long TD pass in the Cowboys game was a major part.
That 63yd TD to R. Williams should be at most a 20yd gain.
Nobody can tell me that the safety Wilson who lined up outside the hashmarks against a one-receiver route is allowed not to get to the Numbers - which is a mere 7-8 yards away (only one other receiver went as far as some 3 yards accrosss the LOS and was responsible for by Quin and Pollard on the other side.)
You can claim a 20-yd catch on Jackson, but not the TD.
If Wilson had made some kind of contact, Jackson would have been there to join him.

I would also bring up the long pass play that Jackson played the rule well to drive Dez Bryant out of bound to force an incompletion.
He forced Bryant out of bound on anther pass play, against within the rule, that resulted in a penalty on Bryant for an illegal catch.
He mantained his landmark well on another pass play in which they flooded his zone hi-lo with 2 receivers; an incompletion that brougth up 3rd and 20 for the Cowgurls.

If you claim that he was a major contibutor to the loss, I strongly disagree.

Or you may claim the Giants game (as Lucky thought Nicks made Jackson his biatch based on a few short-medium plays, which I strongly disagree - I will get to this game later if I have some time.)

Don't forget that Jackson had an INT that gave the ball to the offense at the Jets 17 and we scored a TD off that.

Even if you add the long pass play to Smith, I would tell you the same way EU said about how Quin gave up the TD pass in the Jets game, and not Allen.
Well, the Giants only got a FG out of Smith's catch.

So a 6-yd back-shoulder fade TD to Nikcs is negated by the INT that led to 7 points for the Texans.
You can only point out a difference of 3 pointss on Jackson, and that can't be defined as MAJOR.

WHAT ELSE?
I don't think you can put much else on Jackson as MAJOR contributor to any loss.

EllisUnit
08-25-2011, 05:05 PM
It should be easy to show if there were that many that contribute a major part in many losses, why can't EU or you show me?



Or at least tell me, for example, you may claim that Arijotutu's 2 TDs was a major reason that we lost to the Chargers.
To this, I've gone to the extent to show several CBs (including Pro-Bowlers like Aso, Rashean Mathis, and Newman) who played the coverage exactly the way Jackson played it.
If you insist to charge the long TD to these CBs then at least you need to explain to me why they did what they did.

You can't claim that one long TD pass in the Cowboys game was a major part.
That 63yd TD to R. Williams should be at most a 20yd gain.
Nobody can tell me that the safety Wilson who lined up outside the hashmarks against a one-receiver route is allowed not to get to the Numbers - which is a mere 7-8 yards away (only one other receiver went as far as some 3 yards accrosss the LOS and was responsible for by Quin and Pollard on the other side.)
You can claim a 20-yd catch on Jackson, but not the TD.
If Wilson had made some kind of contact, Jackson would have been there to join him.

I would also bring up the long pass play that Jackson played the rule well to drive Dez Bryant out of bound to force an incompletion.
He forced Bryant out of bound on anther pass play, against within the rule, that resulted in a penalty on Bryant for an illegal catch.
He mantained his landmark well on another pass play in which they flooded his zone hi-lo with 2 receivers; an incompletion that brougth up 3rd and 20 for the Cowgurls.

If you claim that he was a major contibutor to the loss, I strongly disagree.

Or you may claim the Giants game (as Lucky thought Nicks made Jackson his biatch based on a few short-medium plays, which I strongly disagree - I will get to this game later if I have some time.)

Don't forget that Jackson had an INT that gave the ball to the offense at the Jets 17 and we scored a TD off that.

Even if you add the long pass play to Smith, I would tell you the same way EU said about how Quin gave up the TD pass in the Jets game, and not Allen.
Well, the Giants only got a FG out of it.

So a 6-yd backshoulder fade TD to Nikcs is negated by the INT that led to 7 points for the Texans.
You can only out a difference of 3 pointson Jackson, and that's can't be defined as MAJOR.

WHAT ELSE?
I don't think you can put much else on Jackson as MAJOR contributor to any loss.

76 i like ya man i respect ya i really do, but Jackson was bad, it is not everyone elses fault but his. You are trying to throw everyone else under the bus except jackson. So Jackson gives up to TDs to the Chargers and its not his fault we lose, YET Allen gives up a long pass not for a TD, and it IS his fault we lose to the Jets.

I just dont see it. I dont see how Jackson is so wrongfully done by the rest of our defense and noone else was. I dont see how you think he didnt play a role in any of the losses. Yet Allen did. You are only seeing what you wanna see. I know allen had bad plays but i know Jackson had just as many. I wont argue with you anymore about this.

You are set in ur ways, that Jackson didnt have any bad plays last season, he was only put in tough spots. While Allen just purely played bad. No offense man but u are looking more and more foolish by trying to convince everyone that jackson only looked bad because of everyone elses mess ups and NONE of it was because of him.

76Texan
08-25-2011, 05:06 PM
76 I appreciate ur post. Dont get caught up in the bickering. He says tomato u say tomato...

move on to your next observation. I enjoy the film study.

Thanks, I'm on it!

And just like usual I disagree with you here as well.

End of the game when a team has no timeouts, you protect the sideline. If they have him playing a trail technique he doesn't really have the option of doing whatever they want him to do which is what you are suggesting.


If they have him playing a trail technique that in itself implies that a safety will be giving direct help over the top, otherwise you are giving away anything over the top.

If you really stop and take an unbiased look at it I think you'd see that Allen played well within the scheme of that play.

If the safety is paying more attention to routes in the middle of the field he's not doing what he's supposed to because the one thing you can't afford there is for the guy to catch the ball on the sideline and get out of bounds.

The one thing any defense CANNOT AFFORD is to give up a TD, don't you agree with that?

Let's take a look at the play again:

Here's the 2-depp safety look:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/12-deepsafety.jpg

EllisUnit
08-25-2011, 05:07 PM
It should be easy to show if there were that many that contribute a major part in many losses, why can't EU or you show me?



Or at least tell me, for example, you may claim that Arijotutu's 2 TDs was a major reason that we lost to the Chargers.
To this, I've gone to the extent to show several CBs (including Pro-Bowlers like Aso, Rashean Mathis, and Newman) who played the coverage exactly the way Jackson played it.
If you insist to charge the long TD to these CBs then at least you need to explain to me why they did what they did.

You can't claim that one long TD pass in the Cowboys game was a major part.
That 63yd TD to R. Williams should be at most a 20yd gain.
Nobody can tell me that the safety Wilson who lined up outside the hashmarks against a one-receiver route is allowed not to get to the Numbers - which is a mere 7-8 yards away (only one other receiver went as far as some 3 yards accrosss the LOS and was responsible for by Quin and Pollard on the other side.)
You can claim a 20-yd catch on Jackson, but not the TD.
If Wilson had made some kind of contact, Jackson would have been there to join him.

I would also bring up the long pass play that Jackson played the rule well to drive Dez Bryant out of bound to force an incompletion.
He forced Bryant out of bound on anther pass play, against within the rule, that resulted in a penalty on Bryant for an illegal catch.
He mantained his landmark well on another pass play in which they flooded his zone hi-lo with 2 receivers; an incompletion that brougth up 3rd and 20 for the Cowgurls.

If you claim that he was a major contibutor to the loss, I strongly disagree.

Or you may claim the Giants game (as Lucky thought Nicks made Jackson his biatch based on a few short-medium plays, which I strongly disagree - I will get to this game later if I have some time.)

Don't forget that Jackson had an INT that gave the ball to the offense at the Jets 17 and we scored a TD off that.

Even if you add the long pass play to Smith, I would tell you the same way EU said about how Quin gave up the TD pass in the Jets game, and not Allen.
Well, the Giants only got a FG out of Smith's catch.

So a 6-yd back-shoulder fade TD to Nikcs is negated by the INT that led to 7 points for the Texans.
You can only point out a difference of 3 pointss on Jackson, and that can't be defined as MAJOR.

WHAT ELSE?
I don't think you can put much else on Jackson as MAJOR contributor to any loss.


You mean that int on that way bad overthrown pass by Eli ??? Yeah that took some major cover skills :kubepalm:

76Texan
08-25-2011, 05:08 PM
A four-man pass rush and man-under coverage (against five possible receivers, includingthe RB.)

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/25-manunder.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/3ManCoverage.jpg

Here, notice that there were 3 receivers on Jackson's side (including the RB).
Notice how Jackson was in phase with his receiver.

Also, note that bohh slot receivers had a step on his man on the inside.
If either safety goes to help on the side line too soon, it would be an easy throw in the middle for the QB and a TD.

EllisUnit
08-25-2011, 05:11 PM
A four-man pass rush and man-under coverage (against five possible receivers, includingthe RB.)

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/25-manunder.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/3ManCoverage.jpg

Here, notice that there were 3 receivers on Jackson's side (including the RB).
Notice how Jackson was in phase with his receiver.

Actually the WR had a step on Jackson you can clearly see that in the pic. But of course ur biased opinion would refuse to see this.

michaelm
08-25-2011, 05:13 PM
:popcorn: ...meh... not really.

76Texan
08-25-2011, 05:16 PM
Here's the left side of the defense:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/4Leftsideofdefense.jpg



And here's where Allen can still play any route along the side line, but he lost the emphasis on the deep route.


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/5Allensdemise.jpg

76Texan
08-25-2011, 05:17 PM
In the meanwhile, look at what Jackson was doing on the other side?

He was still in phase with the receiver (stride for stride).

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/4th%20Qtr/Edwards%2039yd%20catch/Notes/6KJaxandAllen.jpg

76Texan
08-25-2011, 05:27 PM
76 i like ya man i respect ya i really do, but Jackson was bad, it is not everyone elses fault but his. You are trying to throw everyone else under the bus except jackson. So Jackson gives up to TDs to the Chargers and its not his fault we lose, YET Allen gives up a long pass not for a TD, and it IS his fault we lose to the Jets.

I just dont see it. I dont see how Jackson is so wrongfully done by the rest of our defense and noone else was. I dont see how you think he didnt play a role in any of the losses. Yet Allen did. You are only seeing what you wanna see. I know allen had bad plays but i know Jackson had just as many. I wont argue with you anymore about this.

You are set in ur ways, that Jackson didnt have any bad plays last season, he was only put in tough spots. While Allen just purely played bad. No offense man but u are looking more and more foolish by trying to convince everyone that jackson only looked bad because of everyone elses mess ups and NONE of it was because of him.

You must have missed one of my posts earlier.

On the last play of the game, Allen was also beaten by a slant.
Sanchez can go either way to get his TD!

Earlier, Allen had allowed a 27-yd pass to Edwards to give the Jets the ball at the Texans 10. They scored a TD a couple plays later.

(Allen had at least 3 more bad plays in the game, and got away with a couple more - including one that could have gone 77 yards for a TD; he also committed a PI and got away with one.)

So, yes, Allen and McCain both played very big parts in the lost!

And of course, there were a few minor plays in there as well.

Rey
08-25-2011, 05:35 PM
It should be easy to . .

I said agree to disagree.

I didn't even read the post because u think you are flat out wrong about many of the same old stuff. Just going round and round.

Look, I'm done debating with you. Believe what you want to believe about the db play last year.

Doesn't matter to me much anymore as I am looking forward to a successful 2011.

But good luck with all of the Kareem breakdown from last year stuff. I'm done with it.

DocBar
08-25-2011, 06:22 PM
Aside from the time spent, it's just far too easy to cherry pick this stuff. I bet you could do the same thing for Revis, Aso, Samuel, etc.
I'm sorry I even poked my nose back into this thread. Just more of the same. It's groundhog day in secondaryville.

76Texan
08-25-2011, 08:06 PM
Trail Technique
This is a coverage technique often employed by defensive backs with great speed. When a cornerback or safety is covering a fast receiver moving up field, he will often give the receiver a step or two of daylight in order to entice the quarterback to throw to a receiver whom he believes is open for a big play. With the trail technique, the defensive back turns on his speed as soon as he sees the quarterback about to release the ball. This allows him to catch up to make an interception or knock the pass down before the receiver makes a catch. This is a solid technique taught by a majority of defensive coaches at the college and professional level, but it is somewhat dangerous. If the defensive back's catch-up speed is not as fast as he believes, he will be chasing the receiver into the end zone.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/120210-defensive-back-drills-techniques/#ixzz1W5cxGpKI

...........

Cover 2 Man is played with two safeties both covering a deep half of the field, and the two cornerbacks playing man, or a press-trail technique.

Linebackers can either play zone, or man coverage.

In this press-trail you do not allow the receivers to get an inside release. Instead you jam them, and then trail slightly behind them, baiting the quarterback to throw it in between you and the safety.

Because the quarterback has to throw a very accurate pass to get the ball to drop in there, there is a very good chance either you or the safety on your side can pick it off.

http://www.greatcornerback.com/defensive-back-coverages.html

In the above link you can view an interactive diagram that shows the CB "STAYING CLOSE" to the receiver in TRAIL technique.

It was not what Allen was doing in that play.
.............

Lee from Hugo, OK

Does the back-shoulder catch require good timing? Can you explain what makes it so hard to defend?

It’s difficult to defend because the defensive back’s momentum is being used against him. He doesn’t know the ball is going to be thrown short or when it’ll happen. He’s running full-out to keep up with the receiver. The way to defeat the back-shoulder throw is to play something called “trail technique,” but that’s a dangerous device and there are only a few defenders in the league that have the skill and closing speed to play “trail technique.” If you’re trailing the play, the quarterback and the receiver are going to detect that and they’re going to adjust the route and hit you over the top. Now, do you have the closing speed to catch up? A few guys do. Darrelle Revis can play “trail technique.” That’s one of the reasons he’s considered to be the best cornerback in the game.

http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/ask-vic/article-1/This-is-a-regular-season-week/e1e8d8de-6c53-496c-a520-c5f145ab13cc

,,,,,,,,

TRAIL:
INSIDE MIRROR JAM (AKA: “PRESS/MAN”):


Align with you nose on the inside eye of the receiver. Your feet must be parallel and your shoulders square to the L.O.S. with the weight on the outside foot. You will take a short step with your inside foot. Do not attack or reach for him. You will use your inside hand and foot to restrict any inside release by the receiver. As the receiver comes off the L.O.S., you must not react to any outside fake, except to step back from him. Don’t let the receiver get into your body, use quick hands and jam with good strength (elbows locked) to prevent this. Once his release is determined, use your INSIDE hand to build a wall between the receiver and inside or to contact his outside release. Absorb his release and slide your feet to maintain your inside position. Once you have succeeded in forcing him outside, you must now establish a position one yard inside him and on his hip. DO NOT RUN DIRECTLY BEHIND HIM at any time. DO NOT OVER-RUN HIM UPFIELD and let the receiver back underneath and inside. Be patient! Concentrate on the receiver and try to “feel” him as you gain control. Having gained position you now must only stay between the receiver and the Quarterback. Look into the receiver’s eyes and when his head turns you may turn to see the ball. If you can’t turn, just put your hands in his hands when the receiver extends his hands.

Allen can't not do any of this because he wasn't in the receiver's hip pocket.



http://www.dumcoach.com/index.php/topic,498.0.html (http://www.dumcoach.com/index.php/topic,498.0.html)

.... in press its easy to get in trail posisition but trailing a receiver more then an arms reach is detrimental to the coverage


...
to me trail position is on the hip able to grab the belt...ok so i think we agree....you are saying turn and run....but we agree on the inside hip able to grab the belt....even in zone if the reciever is running a vertical pattern... correct???

76Texan
08-25-2011, 08:26 PM
Aside from the time spent, it's just far too easy to cherry pick this stuff. I bet you could do the same thing for Revis, Aso, Samuel, etc.
I'm sorry I even poked my nose back into this thread. Just more of the same. It's groundhog day in secondaryville.

Cherry pick?
I wasn't even the one who brought up this particular play "Allen and the Jets".

When I saw people discussing it, I brought in the screen shots so that everybody can see the play.

I recongnize that Rey didn't give Allen a walk.
Kubiak said both Wilson and Allen can play it better.

Where I disagree with Rey is he put too much on Wilson when there were two verticals threatening him.
The inside route could have gone for a TD easily; I don't see how anybody can disagree with that.

For a veteran CB, playing the trail technique as Rey mentioned and the multiple links I provided (from the knows and the coaches who taught the technique), Allen was at fault.

The main thing that Rey differed was that he believed the defense should protect the side-line first, to which I disagreed.
You have to play to prevent the TD first and foremost wherever it may be.
And Wilson's task wasn't easy in this play.

thunderkyss
08-25-2011, 08:41 PM
End of the game when a team has no timeouts, you protect the sideline. If they have him playing a trail technique he doesn't really have the option of doing whatever they want him to do which is what you are suggesting.


If they have him playing a trail technique that in itself implies that a safety will be giving direct help over the top, otherwise you are giving away anything over the top.

If you really stop and take an unbiased look at it I think you'd see that Allen played well within the scheme of that play.

If the safety is paying more attention to routes in the middle of the field he's not doing what he's supposed to because the one thing you can't afford there is for the guy to catch the ball on the sideline and get out of bounds.

Except we're talking about a pass that was caught pretty close to the 10 yard line. If Wilson (I think it was Wilson) is focusing on the outside route, the sideline, he gives up a touchdown, game over.

I understand our coaches weren't among the best defensive minds, but I can't imagine them not expecting Allen to redirect the receiver further inside, closer to the inside safety help.

I just can't see it.

If Allen was a terrible player last year, they would have cut him. It makes 0 sense to keep a guy that sucks that bad if he isn't one of your better corners. It makes 0 sense that he'd be giving Kareem competition for the job if Kareem is that much better than him. None of it makes sense in my opinion and it is nothing but spin.....IMO

Well, I don't know that anyone is saying that Kareem is that much better.

Maybe 76 is. I think they both make too many mental mistakes. I personally wouldn't have kept Allen. I would have tried to bring in another corner back. But I'm not Wade Phillips.

We traded back up in the second round to get Brandon Harris. If KJ is getting any real push, I'm thinking it's from Harris. If I'm Wade Phillips, I'm thinking I've got enough DBs to make a secondary. Jonathan Joseph... then KJ, JA, or BH will earn that other spot. Worse case scenario, KJ, JA, & McCain are going to end up your nickel back, which I would have no problem with that. one of those three, plus Carmichael, Molden, or McMannis would be our fourth corner.

The way I'm looking at it, I've got two talented first rounders who aren't very bright. They'll either catch on, or drop on the depth chart.

76Texan
08-25-2011, 08:43 PM
I said agree to disagree.

I didn't even read the post because u think you are flat out wrong about many of the same old stuff. Just going round and round.

Look, I'm done debating with you. Believe what you want to believe about the db play last year.

Doesn't matter to me much anymore as I am looking forward to a successful 2011.

But good luck with all of the Kareem breakdown from last year stuff. I'm done with it.

It's funny when you (and some others) keep saying that I am flat out wrong about this and that and I've brought up stuffs that validate my position.
(Meaning you and/or other(s) were wrong, not me.

For example, the long pass to Gaffney in the Broncos game.
Finally, I remember Kubiak said in his presser that we were in quarter.
And the ball was thrown right into Nolan's deep zone on the hashmarks.
NFL replay put in on Nolan.
You tell me where I was wrong?

The recent PS game against the Saints, some (including you and TPN) thought that we were in quarters; I was more inclined toward halves.
We all agreed though that Manning should retain depth over the receiver.
Well, Kubiak confirmed that we were in halves.
And so I was right, not wrong!

BTW, leebig, the rules in pattern matching are different from the normal cover 2 concept.
I don't profess to know it all; I'm only learning it since we got Wade.
In cover two, I believe the CB doesn't carry the route unless the #2 receiver also runs a vertical.
There's an exception (even though I'm not one hundred percent sure), and that is if the #1 releases to the outside, then the CB also carries the route.
Neither rule applied in that play against the Saints.
This is the TD by Morgan.
Maning played the usual Cover 2 with the Bears (and he played it very well).
If there's an adjustment, it will be on his part, not Jackson's (who was schooled in the pattern matching concept at Alabama.)

76Texan
08-25-2011, 09:13 PM
Well, I don't know that anyone is saying that Kareem is that much better.

Maybe 76 is. I think they both make too many mental mistakes. I personally wouldn't have kept Allen. I would have tried to bring in another corner back. But I'm not Wade Phillips.

What I'm saying is that Jackson is better overall (when you look at the whole body of work).

If your CB is poor as an outside Force man, it also allows the opponents to gain yards on the ground (and even TDs if they are close enough.)

Any time your CB can get off his blocker and/or main responsibility to help out on the run or on a pass to another receiver, your defense is better.

If a guy can force or help force a fumble, he also helps your team just as much as an INT.

As a rookie, in the situation that Jackson was put it, my take is that he played quite well (more than a passing grade).
If he was a veteran, I would have given him a C-.
On the rookie scale, I would give him a B.

Allen, as a veteran, was a D+ in my book.
Between D+ and C-, there was hardly any difference.

Remember now that Allen and Jackson's plays were parallel somewhat.
Jackson did not do as well in the first half.
Allen also stunk and received his pink slip.

Jackson was hardly in the conversation in the second half (always a good thing for a CB) while many Texans fans weren't thrilled with Allen's play.

In fact, many thought the Texans need two CBs.
For Jackson, it was the carry-over effect from the first half of the season.
For Allen, he was never starting material for a play-off bound team.

Dishman
08-25-2011, 10:11 PM
Great Googly Moogly - someone please nip this insanity in the bud (7 pages and several separate threads too late). Nothing has been proven in this thread other than certain people's unbelievable obsessions.


When and where can I find the next KJ vs JA thread? There simply hasn't been enough analysis of how terrible our secondary was.

76Texan
08-26-2011, 12:09 AM
Great Googly Moogly - someone please nip this insanity in the bud (7 pages and several separate threads too late). Nothing has been proven in this thread other than certain people's unbelievable obsessions.


When and where can I find the next KJ vs JA thread? There simply hasn't been enough analysis of how terrible our secondary was.

Sorry, but I tend to disagree here.
Based on the short PS, there isn't anyone claiming that Allen is ahead for the #2 spot at CB.

It is unfortunate that we have to compare, and that this thread tied up with others.
It is also unfortunate I have to show that Allen fell down more times and had more bad plays as opposed to the good plays he had.

A lot of people didn't show any mercy when they tore Jackson apart.
They laughed when Jackson fell down.
Well, they should laugh even harder once they found out about Allen.
They should continue to laugh now as Allen continues to fall down,
3 times already in less than 4 quarters of play. :)

So what if I'm the least popular poster on the board.
Not that I want to be.
But when one learns to be a true-spirit Texan, one learns to speak his mind (without disrespecting others).

Bring the points to a debate, don't bring your opinions!
Bring supports to your points, don't bring ten more opinions!

I don't disrespect anybody's opinion.
But popular opinion is not what proves a player's ability, sorry!-

Same thing with Myers! Kubiak stated that he played well in 09.
I concur! Popular opinion was different.

Kubiak said during the combine that the Texans put Jackson in some unfavorable spots .
I also concur.

Kubiak even said that he think Jackson will be a great player (at the combine this year.)

(on what’s been said to cornerback Kareem Jackson this offseason) “I think he’s going to be a great player. I really do. We drafted him. We put him in a tough spot. As a player, we start him from day one. We know he went through some tough times. The whole back end went through some tough times. To be a great player in this league, I think you have to go through some of that. The thing that I’m impressed with Kareem is through last year he never missed a day. Never missed a practice. Never missed a game. When you’re able to withstand that type of stuff, you’re able to go through tough times. The biggest bounce you usually make is from year one to two. I’m expecting him to do that.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Kubiak-at-the-Combine/1ba0f7a9-b25b-48a7-b242-671c5554f1ae


As with the "NFL ready" stuff, I'm not buying into this "He's going to be a great player" at the moment.

But you hear it from the horse mouse.
Them are very strong words.
They are stronger than whatever observations I've made (but yet to show with screen shots.)

So if you think that I'm alone in thinking that Jackson was "on schedule" last year, please just take it to the Kube!