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View Full Version : Texans salary cap number shines a light on Mario Williams' contract


Wolf
08-20-2011, 12:38 PM
Don't look now but the Texans have a little bit of a salary cap issue.

We've known this for a while as the Texans had to re-structure the contracts of DeMeco Ryans, Andre Johnson and Antonio Smith on August 4 to get under their league mandated cap figure. But we didn't know their exact revised number until today.

The Texans are only $866,544 under their cap number, according to Jason La Canfora of nfl.com. That's not a lot in case you were wondering. In fact, there are only two teams in the league in worse shape capwise, according to the list posted by La Canfora.

Only the top 51 salaries on NFL teams currently count against the cap. But when Week 1 rolls around, all 53 player salaries on the roster will count against the cap, as will the salaries of players on injured reserve (if their contract is guaranteed against injury), settlements to players waived-injured, and practice squad players.

At least those were the rules in the last collective bargaining agreement.

The Texans could shave a little bit here or a little bit there to get more cap room, but there's one big whopper of a contract out there that's just begging to be re-worked for cap purposes.

Mario Williams is in the final year of his rookie deal and will be paid a base salary of nearly $14 million this year, all of which counts on the cap.

Generally, in a capped year when you have a situation like that (and you plan to keep the player) you re-do the contract by converting a large portion of the base salary to bonus, pay the player the bonus immediately and amortize that amount over future years for cap accounting purposes, thereby reducing the player's base salary and current cap figure.

In the case of Williams, a re-do could save several million off his and the Texans cap number.

So why aren't the Texans working on this, like, yesterday?

Maybe they are.

But maybe they aren't.



Note: Reader Wade Harrison points out below that profootballtalk.com has the Texans at $2.2 million under and I don't know the reason for the discrepancy. For now I'm going to assume worst case until I find out something different.
http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/texans-salary-cap-number-shines-a-light-on-mario-williams-contract

XI CMURDER IX
08-20-2011, 12:51 PM
I hate to say it, but maybe they should seriously think about a trade... I know Mario is an integral part of this defenses success, but it just might not be worth it. The only team I can think of right now that might be in need of his service and have a player the Texans might want is the Denver Broncos. Elvis Dumervil is a very good 3-4 pass rusher, and would benefit the transition in my opinion. Package that with one of the 4-3 linebackers we have left over and I would take that deal.

EDIT: I mean this before the season starts, not right now. I still want to see if Mario can play this position and be successful at it.

welsh texan
08-20-2011, 01:24 PM
I wonder whats going on with Mario, are the Texans biding their time and seeing if he's a fit in the 3-4 before pulling the trigger, or are they just expecting to let him walk at the end of the year.

Are they hoping he lowers his market value somewhat with a shaky transition season so they can lock him in to a favourable deal later on?

If they had outright confidence in his ability to be the next Ware you'd think they'd have tied him up to a long term deal and worked the numbers favourably for cap purposes.

Maybe Mario has straight up said he wants to be a 4-3 end and will take his $14m and walk at the end of the year. That would be a shame for the Texans because you feel he's had good seasons here but he can have truly great seasons in the future, even at his best so far there have been nagging injuries and poor talent around him.

BetaV1
08-20-2011, 01:52 PM
If we were legit in the mix for the Asomugha sweepstakes, then I highly doubt we are in cap hell as much as people think.











Sunshine. :kitten:

GP
08-20-2011, 02:15 PM
I wouldn't pay him $14 million for this year alone, just to try him out for the 2011 season and see if he works out in Wade's 3-4 defense.

We held onto Carr one year too long. Ditto on Dunta. And now, we have a VERY trade-friendly situation with Mario Williams.

I'm fine with trading him. We're finally to a point, IMO, where Mario no longer defines this defense nor is the main component in it. There was a time when we had nothing BUT Mario, then Dunta was "the man" behind him...and the rest of the defense was a patchwork of draft picks and street free agents.

I also think part of the Bob McNair plan for hiring Wade Phillips and "Going BIG" in this past free agency period, was to create a defense that can stand alone without Mario there. It was a contingency plan, IMO, to make a Plan B for the day when Mario and his agent might play the "Pay Me, Rick" card.

To me, Mario means more to the Texans as (a) a trade for a player who might be a better 3-4 defense guy, and (b) a lesser cap number so we can afford Arian Foster and others. Plus, it removes a potentially bad locker room environment if the schit ever does go down over his contract negotiations.

And I think you do that before week 1 of reg season, which seems unlikely to happen.

I think Bob will splurge $14 million out of his secret stash of cash and say "Oh well, screw it. Let's see if he sinks or swims here." The only problem with that is you lost a trade option--but hey, we could still try and trade him up until trade deadline too--and then we'd better have options in the draft and/or free agency to fill that spot with competency.

The trade value seems great right now, IMO.

LikeMike
08-20-2011, 02:47 PM
How about MW for A. Samuel, Nate Allen and a pick (1st? 2nd?)... Eagles would be sick with Mario, and we`d have a All-Pro secondary. But can Watt, Smith, Barwin and Reed create enough pressure?

VTexan
08-20-2011, 02:51 PM
Mario Williams for Desean Jackson.


http://i.imgur.com/kpHms.gif

Ryan
08-20-2011, 02:55 PM
Not another one of these threads. :wadepalm:


The man has been in the top tier of pass rushers in the league for the past 4 years and is now just making a transition to a new spot, where he has played a grand total of 15 snaps. Don't you think we should give him some time first?

XI CMURDER IX
08-20-2011, 04:46 PM
Not another one of these threads. :wadepalm:


The man has been in the top tier of pass rushers in the league for the past 4 years and is now just making a transition to a new spot, where he has played a grand total of 15 snaps. Don't you think we should give him some time first?

It isn't one of "these threads." I don't think anyone said that the Texans should trade him ASAP(at least from what I have gathered that is.) He could potentially be the best player on the defense this year, but then again he might not be. Is he really worth the 14 million dollar price tag though?

Pantherstang84
08-20-2011, 04:53 PM
It isn't one of "these threads." I don't think anyone said that the Texans should trade him ASAP(at least from what I have gathered that is.) He could potentially be the best player on the defense this year, but then again he might not be. Is he really worth the 14 million dollar price tag though?

Apparently when the contract was negotiated the Texans thought he was worth every penny.

Surreal McCoy
08-20-2011, 06:06 PM
I wouldn't pay him $14 million for this year alone, just to try him out for the 2011 season and see if he works out in Wade's 3-4 defense.

We held onto Carr one year too long. Ditto on Dunta. And now, we have a VERY trade-friendly situation with Mario Williams.

I'm fine with trading him. We're finally to a point, IMO, where Mario no longer defines this defense nor is the main component in it. There was a time when we had nothing BUT Mario, then Dunta was "the man" behind him...and the rest of the defense was a patchwork of draft picks and street free agents.

I also think part of the Bob McNair plan for hiring Wade Phillips and "Going BIG" in this past free agency period, was to create a defense that can stand alone without Mario there. It was a contingency plan, IMO, to make a Plan B for the day when Mario and his agent might play the "Pay Me, Rick" card.

To me, Mario means more to the Texans as (a) a trade for a player who might be a better 3-4 defense guy, and (b) a lesser cap number so we can afford Arian Foster and others. Plus, it removes a potentially bad locker room environment if the schit ever does go down over his contract negotiations.

And I think you do that before week 1 of reg season, which seems unlikely to happen.

I think Bob will splurge $14 million out of his secret stash of cash and say "Oh well, screw it. Let's see if he sinks or swims here." The only problem with that is you lost a trade option--but hey, we could still try and trade him up until trade deadline too--and then we'd better have options in the draft and/or free agency to fill that spot with competency.

The trade value seems great right now, IMO.

Great post and also an opinion I've been espousing for a while. It's not that he's unproductive, it's that his production is in no way commensurate with his cap number. Lance Z mentioned the possibility of franchising him and looking for a trade next season, which if he fails to become a true game changer in Wade's system, then I would agree.

badboy
08-20-2011, 08:28 PM
Unless I am suffering deja vu and I am waterlogged from hours of swimming pool volleyball, this article was discussed in a thread earlier this week. In that thread I pointed out that the $800k was below the $120million but we are allowed to go over $3m more in cash benefits to a player. We can then borrow another $3million more from a future year if needed.

I would be open to a trade for Mario but not just any trade. I would take the offer above for Samuel, Nate Allen & a pick, but no way Eagles offer that at least not now.

We are under the cap and have no issue unless someone comes available we could use and our Cap guru will work magic. I would not re-work Mario until we know how he will do in the 5-2. Everything is on Texans side of the negotiating table right now.

gafftop
08-20-2011, 09:57 PM
Unless I am suffering deja vu and I am waterlogged from hours of swimming pool volleyball, this article was discussed in a thread earlier this week. In that thread I pointed out that the $800k was below the $120million but we are allowed to go over $3m more in cash benefits to a player. We can then borrow another $3million more from a future year if needed.

I would be open to a trade for Mario but not just any trade. I would take the offer above for Samuel, Nate Allen & a pick, but no way Eagles offer that at least not now.

We are under the cap and have no issue unless someone comes available we could use and our Cap guru will work magic. I would not re-work Mario until we know how he will do in the 5-2. Everything is on Texans side of the negotiating table right now.

LOL The light is coming on. Do not rework under any circumstance. I mentioned trade before but I don't thimk many if any teams are interested in making a trade. Just my opinion. Not the OP this time. LOL

gafftop
08-20-2011, 10:18 PM
Just read article. More polished than my post last week but YEP If any trade occurs I think we may need to eat some of that cap. I am not sure that is legal. I just don't think Mario is worth 14 mil to anyone. Just my opinion

chicagotexan2
08-20-2011, 11:43 PM
Do believe Mario will not do as well
at lb than at de. Not because he can't handle the position but because he knows de makes more money than an lb. Either way I think he'll seek top 5 type money but I dint think he's worth that money. I like the idea of franchisng him and taking offers for him then. Besides I think if Wade stays he'll find good players to fill our needs.

Wolf6151
08-21-2011, 06:28 AM
I think the Texans are playing a wait and see game with Mario to find out if he fits the OLB position and if he's worth the huge FA contract he'll be looking for next year. If he sucks then they can let him walk or re-sign him to a team friendly contract and if he's great then they'll most likely put the franchise tag on him as an OLB which is cheaper than as a DE. I also think the Watt and Reed picks were insurance against losing Mario next year. I think the smart thing to do would be to follow the New England Patriots example and trade a high quality player when they have one year left on their contract so that you get a good return. I'd trade him for picks in the 2012 and 2013 drafts. I just don't see any way that Mario plays lights out/pro bowl level this year making him worthy of a grossly expensive FA contract next year. I also think McNair is hesitant to trade Mario since he's a big time overrated ticket selling attraction and face of the franchise. JMO.

BullsOnParade
08-21-2011, 06:47 AM
I'm okay with the fact that we might not get anything in return if Mario walks after this year. You've got to see if this going to work over the course of a full season. It sure would be nice to lock up Arian Foster to a multi-year deal, and with an extra $14 million, we could do that.

welsh texan
08-21-2011, 07:11 AM
However he plays this season, he's going to get paid upper-end money for a DE next off season, whether that is by the Texans or a 4-3 team remains to be seen.

You'd have to think that Wade would be fairly confident that whether he's got MW or not next year, he can be successful especially after another draft to put the talent in place.

mussop
08-21-2011, 12:31 PM
Does anyone think we may not have re-done Mario's contract because he didn't want to play DE in a 3/4? I still don't understand how all the talk around him went from being the next Bruce smith to "he is athletic enough to handle a Demarcus Ware role". Who would you rather have a Smith on our D-line or a Ware at OLB? No brainer! There is something going on that we haven't heard about YET.

gary
08-21-2011, 12:46 PM
How about draft day trade involving Mario?

Lucky
08-21-2011, 12:50 PM
Maybe Mario has straight up said he wants to be a 4-3 end and will take his $14m and walk at the end of the year.
Williams has been nothing but positive in regards to moving to OLB. He (and Antonio Smith) had complained about becoming 3-4 DEs, just after the Phillips hiring.

I wouldn't pay him $14 million for this year alone, just to try him out for the 2011 season and see if he works out in Wade's 3-4 defense.go down over his contract negotiations.

And I think you do that before week 1 of reg season, which seems unlikely to happen.

The trade value seems great right now, IMO.
Everyone from Kubiak, to Wade, to Mario is in a " try him out for the 2011 season and see if he works out" mode this season. Trading Williams now would be an asinine move. Who in the hell will rush the passer in Mario's absence?

Do you even know what the dead money would be in a Mario trade? I don't. I haven't seen a legit source in blogs or the media that knows. Really, I like reading your posts. But, you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Allowing Kubiak and Smith to deal this franchise's 2nd most valuable commodity (before the season even starts) is the height of absurdity.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 01:05 PM
Williams has been nothing but positive in regards to moving to OLB. He (and Antonio Smith) had complained about becoming 3-4 DEs, just after the Phillips hiring.


Everyone from Kubiak, to Wade, to Mario is in a " try him out for the 2011 season and see if he works out" mode this season. Trading Williams now would be an asinine move. Who in the hell will rush the passer in Mario's absence?

Do you even know what the dead money would be in a Mario trade? I don't. I haven't seen a legit source in blogs or the media that knows. Really, I like reading your posts. But, you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Allowing Kubiak and Smith to deal this franchise's 2nd most valuable commodity (before the season even starts) is the height of absurdity. I disagree with this. None of us have a clue about the conversations MW had with the staff outside of him not wanting to be a 4-3 DE. As this article shows, MW has a huge cap # this season and we, apparantly, haven't even tried to extend him and rework his contract. I would rather trade him now, if we can get a decent deal, than just let him walk as an UFA next year. If he walks, what kind of comp pick will we get? Also if we trade him, we at least have some input as to where he goes. As an UFA, he could very well end up in the AFC South. Wouldn't that be a kick in the groin? I'm not suggesting that we actively pursue trading him, but imho, it would be the height of absurdity to automatically rule out a trade.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm not suggesting that we actively pursue trading him, but imho, it would be the height of absurdity to automatically rule out a trade.
Why are you worrying about next year? The Texans are trying to win this year. Your assumptions are based upon:

Mario not succeeding in the OLB role.
Another OLB stepping up and making plays.
Kubiak, Smith, and Wade still being around in 2012.
The Texans still in a 3-4 defense in 2012.
Another team willing to absorb Williams' cap number.

Who in the Texans organization has the juice to make such a trade? A lame duck Smithiak? Wade Phillips, who told McNair the Texans didn't need major changes? Only McNair himself has the authority to approve such a move. And unless the McNair haters are right, and he's just concerned about the bottom line, there's absolutely no reason to deal Mario before anyone knows how he and the team will fare in 2011.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 01:37 PM
Why are you worrying about next year? The Texans are trying to win this year. Your assumptions are based upon:

Mario not succeeding in the OLB role.
Another OLB stepping up and making plays.
Kubiak, Smith, and Wade still being around in 2012.
The Texans still in a 3-4 defense in 2012.
Another team willing to absorb Williams' cap number.

Who in the Texans organization has the juice to make such a trade? A lame duck Smithiak? Wade Phillips, who told McNair the Texans didn't need major changes? Only McNair himself has the authority to approve such a move. And unless the McNair haters are right, and he's just concerned about the bottom line, there's absolutely no reason to deal Mario before anyone knows how he and the team will fare in 2011.I'm worrying about next year because I'll still be a Texan fan next year. I want to win this year, also.

I think it's reasonable to expect MW to not succeed at OLB. That's why everyone from Kubiak to phillips to Mario is in "hide and watch" mode regarding the move. Are you satisfied that he WILL succeed? If so, why?

There are other options at OLB that could be just as successful, if not more so. Reed on one side and Barwin on the other, for example. We might also get that impact OLB via the trade for MW.

I fully expect Kubiak, Smith and Phillips to be here next year. You don't fire a Super Bowl winning coaching staff and Phillips might finally understand that he's a much better DC than HC and not bolt next year for a HC job.

The Texans will be in a 3-4 next season unless Phillips goes insane during the Super Bowl parade in downtown.

Do you honestly think that no 4-3 team would be willing to absorb MW's cap hit? It would be fairly easy for Houston to extend MW and restructure his contract if a suitable trade partner is there. MW is an exceptional DE in a 4-3 and teams would be falling all over themselves if they thought he was available.

In my perfect world, I would seek a straight up trade with Denver for Dumervil. He has a healthy cap # too, but he's an absolute beast in a 3-4. Don't see it happening, but it's fun to daydream sometimes.

BTW, I'm not predicting we win the Super Bowl. I do expect us to make the playoffs, though.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 01:45 PM
In my perfect world, I would seek a straight up trade with Denver for Dumervil.
You'd trade for the worst contract in the NFL? Ok.

Rey
08-21-2011, 01:46 PM
I would not trade Mario. Makes little sense to me.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 01:47 PM
You'd trade for the worst contract in the NFL? Ok.No, I would trade for one of the best 3-4 OLB's in the league.

mussop
08-21-2011, 01:55 PM
Why are you worrying about next year? The Texans are trying to win this year.

These seem like good arguments as to why you shouldn't rule out trading Mario if the right deal was out there.

Mario's trade value is very high and might not be a fit for this D. At least a willing fit. We all know he would be a very good 3/4 DE. His contract dictates he has to be on the field yet he is playing a position he doesn't have a grasp on. If Mario isn't cutting it at OLB, at what point does the brass say, our jobs are on the line, we need the best players at each position that give us the best chance at winning? What if Reed keeps improving to the point that its obvious that he needs to be on the field and Mario is still not getting it? Do you make Mario move back to DE against his wishes? I think its more than obvious Mario was unhappy with the idea of playing DE in a 3/4. Do you really want him playing unhappy at a position he doesn't want to play at?

The goal is to be the best team possible and win a Super Bowl, this year! Which is exactly why you shouldn't eliminate the consideration of possibly trading him. There are still a lot of questions that need to be answered but time is running out so don't rule out anything just yet.

GP
08-21-2011, 02:03 PM
Williams has been nothing but positive in regards to moving to OLB. He (and Antonio Smith) had complained about becoming 3-4 DEs, just after the Phillips hiring.


Everyone from Kubiak, to Wade, to Mario is in a " try him out for the 2011 season and see if he works out" mode this season. Trading Williams now would be an asinine move. Who in the hell will rush the passer in Mario's absence?

Do you even know what the dead money would be in a Mario trade? I don't. I haven't seen a legit source in blogs or the media that knows. Really, I like reading your posts. But, you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Allowing Kubiak and Smith to deal this franchise's 2nd most valuable commodity (before the season even starts) is the height of absurdity.

I don't know that Mario is AS vital as he was in the past. In fact, when compared to Vince Young and Reggie Bush...yeah, he's more valuable than those guys were. But that's not the entire NFL either.

By the way, we've got a lot of guys getting to the other team's QB. Watt is, Smith is, Cushing is, Nading, Reed, and that doesn't include Barwin, 'Meco, Adibi (who got to the QB a few times).

Mario is not the end-all, be-all to this team's defense. In an era when the d-coordinators and their schemes and coaching sucked ass, then "Yeah, Mario was basically IT for us." And I'm not saying Wade is Luke Skywalker, either. He's more like Yoda--He feels the force around him, he has seen Jedi knights come and go, he knows what he's looking for.

Mario is no longer a defensive end. He's a LB now, and I think we could use a definitive 3-4 LB more than a converted 4-3 DE that needs a re-structured contract to keep us under the cap. The kicker here, for me, is that he has trade value NOW. Of course, we could do a deal now and then trade him after this season...or, as you stated in your reply to DocBar we could try to win NOW in 2011 by finding him a 4-3 home and bringing in a better 3-4 LB.

Oh hell yeah, I'd rather have Dumervil's jacked up contract (that could also be re-worked) than gambling on Mario's conversion to the 3-4 as a LB.

But I actually have no real dog in this fight. Because I think we're bigger than Mario Williams now...so it's 6 one way and half-a-dozen the other way to me. if he stays, no skin off my teeth (I don't "hate" the guy nor do I think he sucks or anything).

Lucky
08-21-2011, 02:17 PM
Oh hell yeah, I'd rather have Dumervil's jacked up contract (that could also be re-worked)...
Oh, really? What is left on Dumervil's contract (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3941/elvis-dumervil?rw=1)?

7/22/2010: Signed a six-year, $61.5 million contract. The deal contains $43.156 million guaranteed, including a $3 million signing bonus and Dumervil's first, second, and third years' base salaries. 2011-2012: $14 million, 2013: $12 million, 2014: $10 million, 2015: $8,193,335, 2016: Free AgentElvis has $58 million left on his contract, most of it guaranteed. Explain to me why he would want that re-worked?

I understand, you guys want to play GM. It's fun and all. But at least admit that you don't know what you're talking about. There's no deal for Mario out there that would make the Texans a better team right now. And everyone's ass (from Kubiak, to Mario, to the ballboys) is on the line, right now.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2011, 02:21 PM
I don't know that Mario is AS vital as he was in the past. In fact, when compared to Vince Young and Reggie Bush...yeah, he's more valuable than those guys were. But that's not the entire NFL either.

By the way, we've got a lot of guys getting to the other team's QB. Watt is, Smith is, Cushing is, Nading, Reed, and that doesn't include Barwin, 'Meco, Adibi (who got to the QB a few times).

Mario is not the end-all, be-all to this team's defense. In an era when the d-coordinators and their schemes and coaching sucked ass, then "Yeah, Mario was basically IT for us." And I'm not saying Wade is Luke Skywalker, either. He's more like Yoda--He feels the force around him, he has seen Jedi knights come and go, he knows what he's looking for.

Mario is no longer a defensive end. He's a LB now, and I think we could use a definitive 3-4 LB more than a converted 4-3 DE that needs a re-structured contract to keep us under the cap. The kicker here, for me, is that he has trade value NOW. Of course, we could do a deal now and then trade him after this season...or, as you stated in your reply to DocBar we could try to win NOW in 2011 by finding him a 4-3 home and bringing in a better 3-4 LB.

Oh hell yeah, I'd rather have Dumervil's jacked up contract (that could also be re-worked) than gambling on Mario's conversion to the 3-4 as a LB.

But I actually have no real dog in this fight. Because I think we're bigger than Mario Williams now...so it's 6 one way and half-a-dozen the other way to me. if he stays, no skin off my teeth (I don't "hate" the guy nor do I think he sucks or anything).

No. You may want to re-work it, but Elvis has to agree to it. You canot force a renegoioated contract on any player. I don't know wabout you, but if I was Elvis the only way I would re-work my deal would be for more guaranteed money.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 02:41 PM
Oh, really? What is left on Dumervil's contract (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3941/elvis-dumervil?rw=1)?

Elvis has $58 million left on his contract, most of it guaranteed. Explain to me why he would want that re-worked?

I understand, you guys want to play GM. It's fun and all. But at least admit that you don't know what you're talking about. There's no deal for Mario out there that would make the Texans a better team right now. And everyone's ass (from Kubiak, to Mario, to the ballboys) is on the line, right now.You're awful comfortable telling others that they don't know what they're talking about. Take a good look in the mirror. You have no more of a clue on this than anyone else. You're just spouting off opinion like the rest of us. I simply disagree with your opinion that we should keep MW, regardless of his play just because. If everyone's butt is on the line, it makes much more sense to do anything and everything to make your team better. Keeping a very high priced DE trying to play OLB if he isn't getting the job done is not doing everything you can to make the team better.
As I stated earlier, I'm not saying we must trade him. I'm saying that if the opportunity is there and it's a good deal, pull the trigger. You, on the other hand, seem to think we just have to keep him, regardless of circumstances. You DO understand that he's 99.9% sure to be out of here next year, right? Doesn't it make more sense to get something for him this year, if possible, than to wait on a comp pick next year. Especially since we need to be worried about this year? It must be nice to be the only one who knows what he's talking about. A fool convinced is still a fool.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 02:46 PM
No. You may want to re-work it, but Elvis has to agree to it. You canot force a renegoioated contract on any player. I don't know wabout you, but if I was Elvis the only way I would re-work my deal would be for more guaranteed money.Of course he will do it for more money, but he's proven to be worth it in a 3-4 scheme. The Dumervil thing was not the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that we could trade MW and get better this year. I'm not saying we need to openly shop him like the 9'ers did with Taylor Mays, but we should be willing to listen to offers. I see only 2 truly untouchable players on this team: AJ and Foster, with a 3rd possibly being Schaub. Other than that, I would listen to offers. There's no harm at all in listening. If you get an offer you can't refuse, don't refuse it.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 02:46 PM
You DO understand that he's 99.9% sure to be out of here next year, right?
I know as much as you do, regarding where Mario will play in 2012.

Which is zip.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 02:47 PM
I know as much as you do, regarding where Mario will play in 2012.

Which is zip.My point exactly. Wouldn't it be nice to have some say in that and improve our team at the same time?

Errant Hothy
08-21-2011, 02:49 PM
Of course he will do it for more money, but he's proven to be worth it in a 3-4 scheme. The Dumervil thing was not the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that we could trade MW and get better this year. I'm not saying we need to openly shop him like the 9'ers did with Taylor Mays, but we should be willing to listen to offers. I see only 2 truly untouchable players on this team: AJ and Foster, with a 3rd possibly being Schaub. Other than that, I would listen to offers. There's no harm at all in listening. If you get an offer you can't refuse, don't refuse it.

I'd listen as well, but when you throw out Mario for Elvis straight up; I might pitch in with how poor of an idea that is due to the money owed Elvis.

That is all.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 02:52 PM
I'd listen as well, but when you throw out Mario for Elvis straight up; I might pitch in with how poor of an idea that is due to the money owed Elvis.

That is all.That's why I'm not a GM!!!! Elvis is a beast in a 3-4, though. For the record, I did say I was just daydreaming about it...:whip:

Lucky
08-21-2011, 02:53 PM
Of course he will do it for more money, but he's proven to be worth it in a 3-4 scheme. The Dumervil thing was not the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that we could trade MW and get better this year.
You're advocating trading for Dumervil (coming off an injury) and giving him more than the $58 million he's got coming to him? But it's not about Dumervil? Just what magic deal out there are you talking about? Are the Cowboys ready to deal DeMarcus Ware? What?

Are the Texans trading Mario this year? No.

Will some Texan fans jabber on about trading Mario? Apparently, yes.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 03:02 PM
You're advocating trading for Dumervil (coming off an injury) and giving him more than the $58 million he's got coming to him? But it's not about Dumervil? Just what magic deal out there are you talking about? Are the Cowboys ready to deal DeMarcus Ware? What?

Are the Texans trading Mario this year? No.

Will some Texan fans jabber on about trading Mario? Apparently, yes.Do you have a reading disability or are you just cherry picking? I clearly spelled out that I was not seriously advocating trading for Dumervil. I AM advocating trading MW if the right offer was made. Why is this simple point so hard for you to understand? Is your mind made up and you don't want to be confused with the facts?
Why the hell would you bring Ware up? Is he transitioning to a new position that he's never played and isn't close to being a good fit for physically?
I also never claimed that there WAS any deal. Again, I simply said we should listen to offers IF THEY ARE MADE.
It's odd that you know no more than anyone else, but state, as fact, that MW will not be traded this year. I don't think he will be, but I don't know it for fact. I would be open to the possibilty, though.

Wolf6151
08-21-2011, 03:06 PM
How about draft day trade involving Mario?

Mario is a FA at the end of this season.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 03:10 PM
Do you have a reading disability or are you just cherry picking?
You don't take criticism of your opinion very well, do you?. Try to stay with the topic rather than taking discussion to a personal level.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 03:22 PM
You don't take criticism of your opinion very well, do you?. Try to stay with the topic rather than taking discussion to a personal level.I've been on topic this whole time. You got side tracked by a comment I made in a much lengthier post. I wasn't being ugly towards you, I was asking an honest question because you seemed to be fixated on one small thing and don't seem to grasp what I've said at all.

GP
08-21-2011, 03:29 PM
No. You may want to re-work it, but Elvis has to agree to it. You canot force a renegoioated contract on any player. I don't know wabout you, but if I was Elvis the only way I would re-work my deal would be for more guaranteed money.

I guess he could remain on what is a pretty bad Denver team and make that money. Or he could re-work it for us and play on a much better team, which makes him have a much better chance at a Super Bowl. EDIT: His deal is not that bad, actually. Basically $43 million guaranteed and a 6-year contract from 2010 to 2016...$7 million-per-year just on guaranteed amount. You can re-work stuff and make it happen if Elvis thinks he has a better shot here than in Denver.

What's Mario's contract going to look like?

You guys think it will be less than $58 million? LOL. Riiiiiight.

Dumervil signed a 6-year contract with $43 million guaranteed (signed it in 2010).

I fail to see how this guy would be a team killer, and Mario's new contract wouldn't. Please help me understand where I am so woefully ignorant of football discussions. Otherwise, just say it's a personal preference between Mario and Elvis and let's stop the belittling (which has been a one-way street, Lucky, and you're a mod and should be above that crap).

GP
08-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Unless Tim Tebow becomes the next Elway, the Broncos are a dead-end street for guys like Elvis Dumervil.

We have so much more opportunity here, and that's not Kool Aid talking. Adding a 3-4 guy like Elvis would make this team insanely deadly. Weekly.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2011, 03:35 PM
I guess he could remain on what is a pretty bad Denver team and make that money. Or he could re-work it for us and play on a much better team, which makes him have a much better chance at a Super Bowl.

What's Mario's contract going to look at?

You guys think it will be less than $58 million? LOL. Riiiiiight.

Right now it is, and that'a all we can base this off of.

I wouldn't be opposed to trading MW, hell the only untouchable on the roster is #80 in my eyes; but I would rather give him more then the shortest preseason in recetn NFL history to make the transistion. Trading deadline isn't till what, week 6?

As for Elvis re-workind his deal to play for us, how much different is a 4 win team from an eight/nine win team that does not make the playoffs? And 58 million reasons can make a bunch of people put up with a couple of bad years.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 03:39 PM
Otherwise, just say it's a personal preference between Mario and Elvis and let's stop the belittling (which has been a one-way street, Lucky, and you're a mod and should be above that crap).
Belittling someone's opinion or knowledge of the NFL is far different from making personal insults. One's fair game, the other's not.

The point was you postulated that Dumervil's contract could be re-worked. Without stating what the terms were or how it could be re-worked. As far as being a personal preference between Mario and Elvis, only in this nook of the Texans fans virtual world and Elvis' immediate family is Dumervil considered as good or better than Williams.

GP
08-21-2011, 03:41 PM
Right now it is, and that'a all we can base this off of.

I wouldn't be opposed to trading MW, hell the only untouchable on the roster is #80 in my eyes; but I would rather give him more then the shortest preseason in recetn NFL history to make the transistion. Trading deadline isn't till what, week 6?

As for Elvis re-workind his deal to play for us, how much different is a 6 win team from an eight/nine win team that does not make the playoffs? And 58 million reasons can make a bunch of people put up with a couple of bad years.

If you would read my posts, I clearly state that it seems logical to look at Week 6 as enough time to see what Mario can do in this 3-4.

The problem is that Mario's contract, from reports I read, has to be re-worked before Week 1 of reg season. Otherwise, we're likely over the cap and would forfeit several players we signed. Mario's going to get a new deal prior to Week 1. So there's the rub: Sign now and hope someone wants to take the contract?

You guys, please, listen to reason: Players and agents will re-work a deal at the drop of a hat if it means a sign-and-trade with comparable numbers but worked out differently to ensure you get value where you're headed off to next. This is not a marriage. This is a business. And deals can be made.

Last time: (1) We don't have to move the guy. (2) If we DID move the guy, there would be teams interested, and (3) We're gonna' have to re-work his deal prior to Week 1 to make the cap work for us. All these things are fluid and not in concrete. Deals could be made, but then again McNair could decide that Mario retires a Texan. Hell, he's tried to do that with Carr and Dunta...and he will do that with Andre Johnson, for sure. So I doubt a trade happens with Mario. This is just football talk, by the way, which is why we're here. Not to act better than one another.

From my view in the stands, DocBar was talking football and others are piling on him for being ignorant of "facts." Deals. Can. Be. Made. Happens all the time, and by guys who crunch numbers for a living. The idea that was most recently given as proof that a couple of people don't know their facts, and I'm not making that up here, is that Elvis has a poisonous contract or something. It's not that bad. He's being paid like a #1 guy on a defense. Mario will want that and much more when we re-work his deal. Therefore, with the theory that "deals can be made," it's not cut and dry that a deal trading the two guys is a bad move or something.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 03:44 PM
The problem is that Mario's contract, from reports I read, has to be re-worked before Week 1 of reg season. Otherwise, we're likely over the cap and would forfeit several players we signed.
Link to this line of reasoning?

GP
08-21-2011, 03:48 PM
Link to this line of reasoning?

Uh, it's the very first post in this thread.

Only thing that is questionable is how reliable the author of the article is.

Alan Burge is the author. Would have put a snarky comment here, but trying to keep it above level on here.

Don't look now but the Texans have a little bit of a salary cap issue.

We've known this for a while as the Texans had to re-structure the contracts of DeMeco Ryans, Andre Johnson and Antonio Smith on August 4 to get under their league mandated cap figure. But we didn't know their exact revised number until today.

The Texans are only $866,544 under their cap number, according to Jason La Canfora of nfl.com. That's not a lot in case you were wondering. In fact, there are only two teams in the league in worse shape capwise, according to the list posted by La Canfora.

Only the top 51 salaries on NFL teams currently count against the cap. But when Week 1 rolls around, all 53 player salaries on the roster will count against the cap, as will the salaries of players on injured reserve (if their contract is guaranteed against injury), settlements to players waived-injured, and practice squad players.

At least those were the rules in the last collective bargaining agreement.

The Texans could shave a little bit here or a little bit there to get more cap room, but there's one big whopper of a contract out there that's just begging to be re-worked for cap purposes.

Mario Williams is in the final year of his rookie deal and will be paid a base salary of nearly $14 million this year, all of which counts on the cap.

Generally, in a capped year when you have a situation like that (and you plan to keep the player) you re-do the contract by converting a large portion of the base salary to bonus, pay the player the bonus immediately and amortize that amount over future years for cap accounting purposes, thereby reducing the player's base salary and current cap figure.

In the case of Williams, a re-do could save several million off his and the Texans cap number.

So why aren't the Texans working on this, like, yesterday?

Maybe they are.

But maybe they aren't.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2011, 03:53 PM
Link to this line of reasoning?

Ditto.

One would think that if the team had several deals to re-work, which they did, they would get them all done at the same time. Only seems logical.

Edit: Say the post. Two things 1) AJ admitts there are also conflicting reports out there and 2) I though the new CBA allowed teams to borrow against up-coming caps to get under this year.

This is business.

You are exactly right, this is business; and Elvis Dumervil is in the business of getting Elvis Dumervil all the money he possible can first and foremost. Winning might be a distant second, and if he wanted to take a pay cut to win he would look to several other teams before the Texans.

Would I like to see Dumervil or Ware here, under re-worked deal, instead of MW? Yeah, I would. Is it possible outside the world of Madden? I just don't think so. Would you want draft picks for MW? Because that is the most likely path a tradewould take, or at least a trade that was approaching near equal value.

GP
08-21-2011, 03:54 PM
Unless aj's numbers are way off, the Texans have $14 million counting against the cap right at Week 1 (Mario's base salary for 2011).

We're at $888,000 (or so) under the cap right now, according to NFLN's Jason LaCanfora.

If these reports by aj and LaCanfora are true, Mario will have to have his deal re-worked. Mario's got us over the cap by 13.2 million at Week 1.

GP
08-21-2011, 03:54 PM
Did either of you read the first post of this thread, or just jump in here at page 2?

DocBar
08-21-2011, 03:56 PM
Belittling someone's opinion or knowledge of the NFL is far different from making personal insults. One's fair game, the other's not.

The point was you postulated that Dumervil's contract could be re-worked. Without stating what the terms were or how it could be re-worked. As far as being a personal preference between Mario and Elvis, only in this nook of the Texans fans virtual world and Elvis' immediate family is Dumervil considered as good or better than Williams.I don't think anyone would argue that MW is a far superior DE than Dumervil. I also don't think anyone would argue that Dumervil is a far superior OLB than MW. My line of reasoning when I initially mentioned Dumervil is that they are both playing out of position and it would be a win-win for both the players and the teams. As I said before, I was merely daydreaming.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2011, 03:59 PM
Did either of you read the first post of this thread, or just jump in here at page 2?

I jumped in when I say Dumervil's name. So what? I've been pretty clear that I'm not against the idea of trading MW if the right deal can be found, but my only issue is the notion of trading for Dumervil. I think it's a pipe dream at best; and outisde of Ware and Dumervil I'm not sure if their is anybody I would trade MW for. But I don't follow the other 31 teams near close enough to say that for sure.

As Aj stated, there are conflicting reports out there about the Texans and their cap space.

GP
08-21-2011, 04:04 PM
I jumped in when I say Dumervil's name. So what? I've been pretty clear that I'm not against the idea of trading MW if the right deal can be found, but my only issue is the notion of trading for Dumervil. I think it's a pipe dream at best; and outisde of Ware and Dumervil I'm not sure if their is anybody I would trade MW for. But I don't follow the other 31 teams near close enough to say that for sure.

As Aj stated, there are conflicting reports out there about the Texans and their cap space.

"So what?"

"So what?" is when you jump in and say "Ditto" when Lucky asked for a link to my reasoning. Then you and him figure out that I am not the dunce I was being made out to be, so it becomes "So what?"

Okie dokie. I think the jury can come to its own conclusion on this one.

One more time: This is all talk, and yet two people were beating two other people over the head with the "Your idea is insane" stick.

Help me understand how I just let this slide? I take ass kickings all the time around here, and I laugh it off. You can too. Try it.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 04:05 PM
I jumped in when I say Dumervil's name. So what? I've been pretty clear that I'm not against the idea of trading MW if the right deal can be found, but my only issue is the notion of trading for Dumervil. I think it's a pipe dream at best; and outisde of Ware and Dumervil I'm not sure if their is anybody I would trade MW for. But I don't follow the other 31 teams near close enough to say that for sure.

As Aj stated, there are conflicting reports out there about the Texans and their cap space.I would be open to more than just DL or LB positions. Would you trade MW for an elite LT? QB, WR(unless it's Desean Jackson-ish), RB and TE would be off of my radar, but any other position would be up for discussion. Why couldn't it be for draft picks or a combination of players and picks? We very well might have the player on the roster right now that would be an upgrade over MW at OLB. I want the best players on the field, period.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 04:06 PM
Uh, it's the very first post in this thread.

Only thing that is questionable is how reliable the author of the article is.

Alan Burge is the author. Would have put a snarky comment here, but trying to keep it above level on here.



The problem is that Mario's contract, from reports I read, has to be re-worked before Week 1 of reg season. Otherwise, we're likely over the cap and would forfeit several players we signed. Mario's going to get a new deal prior to Week 1. So there's the rub: Sign now and hope someone wants to take the contract?
AJ's article never stated that Mario's contract had to be re-worked or that the Texans could forfeit players. He questioned why the Texans had not yet extended Williams deal, then answered his own question, giving multiple reasons. Concerned about Williams ability to convert to the 3-4. Concerns about making that large a commitment to Williams, period. Which are valid.

What wasn't said is that it takes two sides to agree to a contract, and maybe Williams isn't ready to extend. Maybe he wants to see how the 3-4 OLB position works for him. Maybe he wants to see if this team can actually become a winner. Or maybe he just wants to see what's available on the free agent market. He is a professional football player. Who knows? Either way, the Texans hold the trump card of the franchise tag, so they will still be able to make the long term decision on Mario after the mystery of the 2011 season is played out.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 04:10 PM
AJ's article never stated that Mario's contract had to be re-worked or that the Texans could forfeit players. He questioned why the Texans had not yet extended Williams deal, then answered his own question, giving multiple reasons. Concerned about Williams ability to convert to the 3-4. Concerns about making that large a commitment to Williams, period. Which are valid.

What wasn't said is that it takes two sides to agree to a contract, and maybe Williams isn't ready to extend. Maybe he wants to see how the 3-4 OLB position works for him. Maybe he wants to see if this team can actually become a winner. Or maybe he just wants to see what's available on the free agent market. He is a professional football player. Who knows? Either way, the Texans hold the trump card of the franchise tag, so they will still hold the cards after the mystery of the 2011 season is played out.I've been thinking this very thing, which is why I am open to trading him. As far as AJ's article, it might not've stated that his contract needed to be reworked, but I'm pretty sure it does. We'll be very close to the limit, if it doesn't, though.

GP
08-21-2011, 04:11 PM
I would be open to more than just DL or LB positions. Would you trade MW for an elite LT? QB, WR(unless it's Desean Jackson-ish), RB and TE would be off of my radar, but any other position would be up for discussion. Why couldn't it be for draft picks or a combination of players and picks? We very well might have the player on the roster right now that would be an upgrade over MW at OLB. I want the best players on the field, period.

That's a good point.

Depth is gold. You put the best players on the field, then you fill in with depth.

It wouldn't have to be Elvis and Mario in the trade. If a 4-3 team has a position we want to upgrade at and move a starter down as depth...then that's a possibility.

The 3-4 means you have your LBs playing a meatier role than they did in the past. In the 4-3, the four down linemen were asked to be the bread winners and the LBs cleaned up the leftovers and added a complimentary role. IN the 3-4, it's switched--The LBs are making the plays and the down linemen are occupying o-lineman.

You just beef up a LB or two in the 3-4, which is why Mario is being tried out as a LB in this 3-4.

Mario could also be put back into a DE role in this 3-4, but he ain't gonna' want to do that. Maybe only IF the deal is re-worked and McNair assures him that Mario will be a Texan for life and that his legacy is to be THE immediate legacy of this franchise. Sell him on that sort of stuff, I suppose.

I keep going back to the point that "This is all just talk on here." It's OK to throw out ideas, even if they might seem insane to some people. I'm like the king of that, ya' know.

Brisco_County
08-21-2011, 04:14 PM
I don't see Mario being a Texan next year, and I don't think Wade does either, which is one of the reasons he almost traded up to get Brooks Reed.

If Mario excels, we won't have the cap space to match other offers. If he doesn't excel, renewing his cap-eating contract won't be justified.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2011, 04:15 PM
"So what?"

"So what?" is when you jump in and say "Ditto" when Lucky asked for a link to my reasoning. Then you and him figure out that I am not the dunce I was being made out to be, so it becomes "So what?"

Okie dokie. I think the jury can come to its own conclusion on this one.

One more time: This is all talk, and yet two people were beating two other people over the head with the "Your idea is insane" stick.

Help me understand how I just let this slide? I take ass kickings all the time around here, and I laugh it off. You can too. Try it.

I never said you were a dunce. I've had two points in this;

1) I'm doubtful that Dumervil will re-work his deal, and therefore a trade for him would only incease the problem you have now.

2) Aj could be wrong. In fact he admits that there are conflicting reports about cap space. And I'm fairly certain there are some nuances in the CBA that can be used to help this situation.

Shit, I agree with the basic premise that looking to trade MW might be a good option for this team. He has not impressed so far.

In fact if you could give me a more legitimate option to trade MW for then Dumervil; I'll more than likely agree with you. Would I rather wait till the deadline to move him? Yes, cause he did so improvment from the first game. Am I convinced he'll be the pass rusher we need at OLB? No, at least not yet. Could he be? I don't know and that's where I think we need to trust Wade in all of this...for now at least.

PS, We all get out asses kicked around here.

GP
08-21-2011, 04:15 PM
AJ's article never stated that Mario's contract had to be re-worked or that the Texans could forfeit players. He questioned why the Texans had not yet extended Williams deal, then answered his own question, giving multiple reasons. Concerned about Williams ability to convert to the 3-4. Concerns about making that large a commitment to Williams, period. Which are valid.

What wasn't said is that it takes two sides to agree to a contract, and maybe Williams isn't ready to extend. Maybe he wants to see how the 3-4 OLB position works for him. Maybe he wants to see if this team can actually become a winner. Or maybe he just wants to see what's available on the free agent market. He is a professional football player. Who knows? Either way, the Texans hold the trump card of the franchise tag, so they will still be able to make the long term decision on Mario after the mystery of the 2011 season is played out.

From what I understand about the CBA, you gotta' be under the cap by Week 1 or you start getting penalized via forfeiture of the free agents you tried to sign this past free agency AND even monetary penalties on top of that.

In short: You can't poo-poo stuff and be a Daniel Snyder and just rack up salaries like a college kid with a new credit card.

That contract affects the Texans cap number in some fashion. Whether it's a true "$14 million" or not, we're only $880-something under the cap.

I don't see aj writing that article the way he did without it being a factor in some sort of Mario-Texans contract deal that, according to CBA rules, has got to be addressed pretty darn quick.

Maybe the reason this is being talked about nationally is because Mario and his agent have a deal, verbally, with McNair. I can see Bob re-structuring Mario if need be. The only thing that was being debated, however, is whether Elvis coming here and Mario going away would or wouldn't be a bad idea.

It's just talk. It's just opinions.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 04:20 PM
As far as AJ's article, it might not've stated that his contract needed to be reworked, but I'm pretty sure it does.
Again, that boils down to what we know, and what we think. I will say that if the Texans put themselves into a position where they had to extend or trade Williams in order to get under the cap, that's piss poor management. And as much as I've criticized this organization, I don't see how they could or would have done that to themselves.

As far as pushing the cap limit, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. Either they've left themselves without flexibility or they haven't spent enough to improve the team. All depends on your point of view, or whether they win or lose.

GP
08-21-2011, 04:21 PM
I never said you were a dunce. I've had two points in this;

1) I'm doubtful that Dumervil will re-work his deal, and therefore a trade for him would only incease the problem you have now.

2) Aj could be wrong. In fact he admits that there are conflicting reports about cap space. And I'm fairly certain there are some nuances in the CBA that can be used to help this situation.

Shit, I agree with the basic premise that looking to trade MW might be a good option for this team. He has not impressed so far.

In fact if you could give me a more legitimate option to trade MW for then Dumervil; I'll more than likely agree with you. Would I rather wait till the deadline to move him? Yes, cause he did so improvment from the first game. Am I convinced he'll be the pass rusher we need at OLB? No, at least not yet. Could he be? I don't know and that's where I think we need to trust Wade in all of this...for now at least.

PS, We all get out asses kicked around here.

Looking back on your posts, I see that you weren't very snarky about what you were saying. But you were throwing the idea out there that Elvis is due a lot of money, and I'm saying that Mario is gonna' be AS bad or worse.

My apologies for being harsh to you.

The thing that needs to be figured out is if Mario's contract of $14 million for 2011 is, indeed, already accounted for...or, is this ON TOP OF the current position of us being $880-something under the cap?

That seems to be the issue confusing us here. Like you said: Why wouldn't his contract be re-worked back when the other guys had theirs re-worked?

Alan Burge is onto something, or he doesn't have all the details. Either way, would be good for us to know the skinny on it.

Lucky
08-21-2011, 04:30 PM
From what I understand about the CBA, you gotta' be under the cap by Week 1 or you start getting penalized via forfeiture of the free agents you tried to sign this past free agency AND even monetary penalties on top of that.

I don't see aj writing that article the way he did without it being a factor in some sort of Mario-Texans contract deal that, according to CBA rules, has got to be addressed pretty darn quick.

It's just talk. It's just opinions.
You're making assumptions and pointing to information that doesn't back those assumptions. The article never said the Texans had to re-work Mario's contract. He said that usually this is when a player like Mario gets an extension. Usually. The Colts waited until Peyton got to free agency before franchising and extending his contract. Mario's isn't the only contract that could be re-worked to give the Texans cap relief (if they even need cap relief).

Yes, it's talk. Yes, it's opinions. I've only remarked on the merits of your talk and opinions.

aj.
08-21-2011, 05:09 PM
Unless aj's numbers are way off, the Texans have $14 million counting against the cap right at Week 1 (Mario's base salary for 2011).

We're at $888,000 (or so) under the cap right now, according to NFLN's Jason LaCanfora.

If these reports by aj and LaCanfora are true, Mario will have to have his deal re-worked. Mario's got us over the cap by 13.2 million at Week 1.

No. Mario's $14 million base is already included in La Canfora's number (as are the other top 50 salaries on the Texans). Nowhere did I say his deal has to be reworked. I said a contract like his is one that's typically reworked to save cap space (if the team intends to keep a high priced player)

$800k isn't much cap space considering they have to leave margin for IR players, practice squad players, and the salaries of two more players since only the top 51 count now.

Wolf
08-21-2011, 05:13 PM
Thanks for clarification aj.. Rep for your hard work

ChampionTexan
08-21-2011, 05:14 PM
Looking back on your posts, I see that you weren't very snarky about what you were saying. But you were throwing the idea out there that Elvis is due a lot of money, and I'm saying that Mario is gonna' be AS bad or worse.

My apologies for being harsh to you.

The thing that needs to be figured out is if Mario's contract of $14 million for 2011 is, indeed, already accounted for...or, is this ON TOP OF the current position of us being $880-something under the cap?(1)

That seems to be the issue confusing us here. Like you said: Why wouldn't his contract be re-worked back when the other guys had theirs re-worked? (2)

Alan Burge is onto something, or he doesn't have all the details. Either way, would be good for us to know the skinny on it.

(1) Word for word from AJ's article: "Only the top 51 salaries on NFL teams currently count against the cap." I would guess in terms of the salary cap amount, Mario's contract would be the #1 top salary for the Texans, so it's safe to assume that it's included.

(2) The primary comment in this is that none of the contracts reworked had only one (or even two) years left on them. The fact is the only way a contract with one year left can be re-worked is by extending it. As has been stated before, it may very well be that the Texans want to see Mario in real games before making what would undoubtedly be a very strong commitment (both in terms of dollars and time). While I'm sure they would like to be able to avoid it, they always have the fallback option of franchising him for 2012 and limiting that commitment to one year.

Edit: I see AJ himself had already addressed the first point while I was writing this post.

badboy
08-21-2011, 09:14 PM
I think the Texans are playing a wait and see game with Mario to find out if he fits the OLB position and if he's worth the huge FA contract he'll be looking for next year. If he sucks then they can let him walk or re-sign him to a team friendly contract and if he's great then they'll most likely put the franchise tag on him as an OLB which is cheaper than as a DE. I also think the Watt and Reed picks were insurance against losing Mario next year. I think the smart thing to do would be to follow the New England Patriots example and trade a high quality player when they have one year left on their contract so that you get a good return. I'd trade him for picks in the 2012 and 2013 drafts. I just don't see any way that Mario plays lights out/pro bowl level this year making him worthy of a grossly expensive FA contract next year. I also think McNair is hesitant to trade Mario since he's a big time overrated ticket selling attraction and face of the franchise. JMO.How about a trade to N.E. who happens to be setting on 3 or 4 second round picks. Their first in 2012 and a high 2nd? We have to remember a trade also opens a huge amount of cap space. Before I get clobbered again, I am not advocating Mario be traded. I am advocating we are in the driver's seat and can field all offers.

DocBar
08-21-2011, 09:30 PM
How about a trade to N.E. who happens to be setting on 3 or 4 second round picks. Their first in 2012 and a high 2nd? We have to remember a trade also opens a huge amount of cap space. Before I get clobbered again, I am not advocating Mario be traded. I am advocating we are in the driver's seat and can field all offers.Doesn't N.E. play a 3-4 also? I would be expecting to hear from a 4-3 team that needs an elite DE to be calling after watching the preseason game film on MW.

gafftop
08-21-2011, 09:42 PM
How about a trade to N.E. who happens to be setting on 3 or 4 second round picks. Their first in 2012 and a high 2nd? We have to remember a trade also opens a huge amount of cap space. Before I get clobbered again, I am not advocating Mario be traded. I am advocating we are in the driver's seat and can field all offers.

LOL If New England makes a trade with you , you have been had. Some teams are just smarter than others. Right now the Texans are average/below average in smarts. Let's trade with the less smart teams. LOL

I on the other time am advocating trading Mario before we get basically nothing. It does not need to be right now but by the trade deadline if there is one.

Look at Texans. Have we ever traded somebody for somebody that turned out to be OK. I am sure we have at some point but I am not sure.
Look at Rockets. Got nothing for Yao or McGrady. I know they have cap space now.

You can't just keep getting nothing in return for your players and expect to be good.

I want something in return for Mario when he leaves at the end of this season. Obviously this is just my opinion on Mario leaving, but a lot points to this outcome.

badboy
08-21-2011, 09:51 PM
No. Mario's $14 million base is already included in La Canfora's number (as are the other top 50 salaries on the Texans). Nowhere did I say his deal has to be reworked. I said a contract like his is one that's typically reworked to save cap space (if the team intends to keep a high priced player)

$800k isn't much cap space considering they have to leave margin for IR players, practice squad players, and the salaries of two more players since only the top 51 count now.Thanks AJ, this is the way I read your info. WHen I read Canfora's article, I thought Mario and all players contract was included as you state. My understanding is Texans are now $1million apprx under cap & no one has to be re-worked.

badboy
08-21-2011, 09:56 PM
LOL If New England makes a trade with you , you have been had. Some teams are just smarter than others. Right now the Texans are average/below average in smarts. Let's trade with the less smart teams. LOL

I on the other time am advocating trading Mario before we get basically nothing. It does not need to be right now but by the trade deadline if there is one.

Look at Texans. Have we ever traded somebody for somebody that turned out to be OK. I am sure we have at some point but I am not sure.
Look at Rockets. Got nothing for Yao or McGrady. I know they have cap space now.

You can't just keep getting nothing in return for your players and expect to be good.

I want something in return for Mario when he leaves at the end of this season. Obviously this is just my opinion on Mario leaving, but a lot points to this outcome.

The two Texans trade that come to mind is a 6th round selection for Myers who has started almost if not every games since and the two second rounds for someone named Matt Schaub. Not sure who out smarted who?

We got quite a bit for McGrady including two first round picks from Knicks.

steelbtexan
08-21-2011, 10:13 PM
I think the Texans are playing a wait and see game with Mario to find out if he fits the OLB position and if he's worth the huge FA contract he'll be looking for next year. If he sucks then they can let him walk or re-sign him to a team friendly contract and if he's great then they'll most likely put the franchise tag on him as an OLB which is cheaper than as a DE. I also think the Watt and Reed picks were insurance against losing Mario next year. I think the smart thing to do would be to follow the New England Patriots example and trade a high quality player when they have one year left on their contract so that you get a good return. I'd trade him for picks in the 2012 and 2013 drafts. I just don't see any way that Mario plays lights out/pro bowl level this year making him worthy of a grossly expensive FA contract next year. I also think McNair is hesitant to trade Mario since he's a big time overrated ticket selling attraction and face of the franchise. JMO.

Great Post

Do you think if Watts or Smith were to get hurt would MW be willing to move back to DE if it was best for the team? But MW wouldn't be able to put up big sack numbers in a contract yr.

I ? whether MW is a team 1st guy and if he proves he isn't this yr I would franchise him and trade him.

gafftop
08-21-2011, 10:39 PM
The two Texans trade that come to mind is a 6th round selection for Myers who has started almost if not every games since and the two second rounds for someone named Matt Schaub. Not sure who out smarted who?

We got quite a bit for McGrady including two first round picks from Knicks.

I meant have we traded one of our players and gotten something in return.

I did not realize we got two first round picks for McGrady. Wish the Knicks were in the NFL, that is the type of team we need to trade with. I know we have the Raiders. lol

badboy
08-21-2011, 10:50 PM
I don't think we ever traded a player for another player, but I could be wrong.

gary
08-21-2011, 11:01 PM
LOL If New England makes a trade with you , you have been had. Some teams are just smarter than others. Right now the Texans are average/below average in smarts. Let's trade with the less smart teams. LOL

I on the other time am advocating trading Mario before we get basically nothing. It does not need to be right now but by the trade deadline if there is one.

Look at Texans. Have we ever traded somebody for somebody that turned out to be OK. I am sure we have at some point but I am not sure.

Look at Rockets. Got nothing for Yao or McGrady. I know they have cap space now.

You can't just keep getting nothing in return for your players and expect to be good.

I want something in return for Mario when he leaves at the end of this season. Obviously this is just my opinion on Mario leaving, but a lot points to this outcome.Are you sure about that statement? Yes, I highjacked the thread. I'm sorry.
http://www.chron.com/sports/rockets/article/Rockets-ship-McGrady-to-Knicks-in-deal-for-Martin-1706456.php

mussop
08-22-2011, 12:07 AM
Doesn't N.E. play a 3-4 also? I would be expecting to hear from a 4-3 team that needs an elite DE to be calling after watching the preseason game film on MW.

Not anymore they are switching to a 4/3 this year.

Wolf6151
08-22-2011, 12:24 AM
Great Post

Do you think if Watts or Smith were to get hurt would MW be willing to move back to DE if it was best for the team? But MW wouldn't be able to put up big sack numbers in a contract yr.

I ? whether MW is a team 1st guy and if he proves he isn't this yr I would franchise him and trade him.


I think Mario would gladly move back to DE if needed, but at the end of the season he'd also have his agent screaming every type of excuse possible for his lack of production at DE. I also think this will happen anyway at OLB. His agent will scream the position change is to blame, the new scheme is to blame, Mario has done everything asked of him, etc... However it plays out I agree on questioning Mario as a team player and honestly don't think he's as good at OLB as he was at DE and question his desire for the game. I think his height and lack of quickness work against him at OLB. The last 2 yrs. Antonio Smith has been our best D-lineman while Mario is our most hyped D-lineman.

Wolf6151
08-22-2011, 12:31 AM
How about a trade to N.E. who happens to be setting on 3 or 4 second round picks. Their first in 2012 and a high 2nd? We have to remember a trade also opens a huge amount of cap space. Before I get clobbered again, I am not advocating Mario be traded. I am advocating we are in the driver's seat and can field all offers.

NO on dealing with N.E.. I think Belichick and their GM have forgotten more about making NFL deals than Smith will ever know. Smith would come out with 3rd string injured roster fillers that Belichick said were future pro-bowlers instead of draft picks. Let's find a 4-3 team to move Mario back to his natural position or lets fleece Al Davis and Oakland like everyone else does. Didn't Denver move back to a 4-3, and the fact that they suck would give us higher draft picks.

Ryan
08-22-2011, 12:34 AM
Keep me in the "I'll trust Wade Phillips over message board guys" party.

badboy
08-23-2011, 03:07 PM
NO on dealing with N.E.. I think Belichick and their GM have forgotten more about making NFL deals than Smith will ever know. Smith would come out with 3rd string injured roster fillers that Belichick said were future pro-bowlers instead of draft picks. Let's find a 4-3 team to move Mario back to his natural position or lets fleece Al Davis and Oakland like everyone else does. Didn't Denver move back to a 4-3, and the fact that they suck would give us higher draft picks.If you were PATS you would not give a late 1st and one of the 4 second you have for the best DE on your roster? It would be a great trade for every one. That would also fill in the picks I'd give to Phill for Asante Samuel.

Courtney Upshaw with our own first and Jeff Fuller with the NE pick.